Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10942

1 Monday, 1 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case number, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number IT-01-47-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Could we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon,

12 Your Honour, counsel and everyone around and in the courtroom. For the

13 Prosecution, Tecla Henry-Benjamin, Daryl Mundis, and our case manager

14 Andres Vatter.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the appearances

16 for Defence counsel. They have a new team today.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President; good day,

18 Your Honours. On behalf of Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic,

19 counsel; Muriel Cauvin, our legal assistant; and Alexis Demirdjian, our

20 legal assistant.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the appearances

22 for the other Defence team.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. On behalf of

24 Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic and Nermin Mulalic, our

25 legal assistant.

Page 10943

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I greet everyone

2 present at this hearing in November, members of the Prosecution, Defence

3 counsel, the accused and everyone else in the courtroom, including the

4 interpreters who on Friday were working a little longer.

5 Mr. Registrar, I think we have to deal with certain documents that

6 will be tendered into evidence. Could we have the numbers for these

7 documents, please.

8 Yes, Defence counsel.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, given that on

10 Thursday we worked intensively, it wasn't possible for Defence counsel to

11 suggest which documents should be admitted into evidence, I'd like to do

12 that now with your leave. Halim Husic was shown eight documents, which

13 are contained in our exhibit list, and he was shown three documents which

14 are on the list of exhibits that have already been admitted in this case.

15 Out of the eight documents, some of these documents were drafted by the

16 witness himself. As far as the other ones are concerned, he is familiar

17 with the events referred to in those documents as he witnessed then, and

18 some of the documents were documents that he recognised given the facts he

19 was acquainted with in 1992 and 1993. As a result, Defence counsel

20 suggests that 0528 be admitted into evidence as well as the following

21 documents, 0572, 0588, 0915, 0918, 1010, 1043, and 1368. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give the floor to the

23 Prosecution now.

24 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no objection, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar.

Page 10944

1 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

2 documents will be admitted under the following numbers DH528, and its

3 English version will be DH581/E; DH572, the English version will be

4 DH572/E; DH588, its English version is DH588/E; DH915, the English version

5 will be DH915/E; DH918, the English version will be DH918/E. DH1010, the

6 English version will be DH1010/E; DH1043, the English version will be

7 DH1043/E; and finally DH1368, the English version will be DH1368/E.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar, we

9 have taken note of these eight documents that have been admitted into

10 evidence under the numbers that you have just mentioned.

11 If there are no other documents to be tendered into evidence,

12 we'll now call the expert witness into the courtroom so that he can take

13 the solemn declaration.

14 Mr. Usher, could you call the witness into the courtroom, please.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I would first

17 like to be sure that you can hear what I'm saying in your own language.

18 If so, please say yes.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I've heard your answer, but I

21 did not receive the interpretation. Could you please repeat what you just

22 said. Could you tell me whether you heard me in your own language or not.

23 For the moment, I'm not receiving any interpretation.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I heard what you said.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called here as a

Page 10945

1 witness for the Defence. Before you take the solemn declaration, I would

2 be grateful if you could tell me your first and last names, your date of

3 birth and place of birth.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Zijad Sehic. I'm -- I

5 lecture in the contemporary history at the university in Sarajevo. I

6 lecture in the general history of the new century and in modern history.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When and where were you born?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the 23rd of October,

9 1959, in Mrkonjic Grad in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Have you already

11 testified before an international or national court as an expert witness

12 or is this the first time?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This will be the first time.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will now ask the

15 usher to show the text of the solemn declaration.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

17 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18 WITNESS: ZIJAD SEHIC

19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, before Defence commences

23 with its examination-in-chief with regard to your expert report that we

24 have all received, there is some information I would like to provide you

25 with to enable you to answer the questions put to you by the Defence and

Page 10946

1 the Prosecution to the best of your ability as well as in order to enable

2 you to answer the Judges' questions.

3 You have been called here as an expert witness. The Defence asked

4 you to write a report on the historical background in Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina, and in this way to provide the Judges with information on the

6 history of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the events that occurred from 1990

7 to 1995. In order to do this, you have provided us with a report with

8 numerous annexes. In the course of this procedure which is based on the

9 common law system, you will have to answer the questions that will be put

10 to you by the Defence with regard to the contents of your expert report.

11 In the course of its cross-examination, the Prosecution may also ask you

12 questions about your report, and the three Judges who are sitting before

13 you, if they deem this necessary, may ask you questions.

14 You are an expert witness; you are not a factual witness. You

15 have been called to testify here as an historian. You've taken the solemn

16 declaration, which means that you should speak the truth, and you should

17 answer the questions put to you to the best of your ability. Naturally,

18 experts do not lie. That goes without saying. But you should be aware if

19 the Trial Chamber believes that false testimony is given, this could be

20 punished.

21 This is how we will be proceeding. Try to answer the questions

22 put to you by the Defence to the best of your ability. In any event, we

23 do have your written report, which will make it easier for us to follow

24 your answers. The objective is to provide us with clarifications on the

25 background in that region, the historical, economic, political, and social

Page 10947

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Page 10948

1 background in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

2 If you encounter any difficulties when questions are put to you,

3 please inform us of the fact. We will try to solve any problems to the

4 extent that this is possible.

5 So roughly speaking, this is how we will be proceeding in the

6 course of the hearing today, and your testimony should take up the entire

7 hearing.

8 I will now give the floor to the Defence, who will commence with

9 their examination-in-chief.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Sehic.

13 A. Good day.

14 Q. The president of the Trial Chamber has provided you with detailed

15 information about how we will be examining you, but before I start asking

16 you a series of questions, I would also like that point out the following:

17 As we speak the same language, you might attempt to immediately answer my

18 questions. However, I would be grateful if you could pause after my

19 question so that the interpreters can interpret my question, and so that

20 my colleagues and the Chamber can follow what is being said. Have you

21 understood me, Mr. Sehic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Dr. Sehic, for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, could you provide

24 us with details from your bibliography and could you tell us about your

25 professional qualifications?

Page 10949

1 A. I was born on the 23rd of October, 1959 in Mrkonjic Grad in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which is where I completed primary and secondary

3 school. I enrolled in the faculty of philosophy, the history department,

4 in 1978, and I graduated in 1982. After I had served in the military, I

5 enrolled to pursue post-graduate studies which I completed in 1991. I

6 obtained my masters with a master thesis called "The annexation crisis

7 from 1908 to 1909, in the light of European historiography.

8 Q. Could you please tell me what current academic qualifications you

9 have?

10 A. I currently work at the philosophy faculty in Sarajevo. I lecture

11 in the general history of the new century, and modern history.

12 Q. In addition to your duties at the university, in the course of

13 your professional work as a doctor in history, were you ever engaged in

14 other spheres or did you hold other public positions that were related to

15 your professional expertise?

16 A. Yes. I was involved in a number of projects. These projects have

17 been completed now. One of them was part of a larger project. I was the

18 representative of Bosnia and Herzegovina in a large-scale project,

19 south-east Europe as part of European history, and this was under the

20 supervision of Dr. Holm Sundhausen from the Free University in Vienna. In

21 addition, I've also participated in number of other projects. Currently

22 I'm a member of the state commission for writing textbooks on history.

23 As far as my other duties are concerned, I'm involved in

24 professional work, in scientific work, so I have published certain other

25 academic works.

Page 10950

1 Q. Mr. Sehic, have you published any books, any textbooks or any

2 professional studies? And if that is the case, where?

3 A. As far as my academic work is concerned, my academic opus is

4 concerned, I have published one book together with Dr. Ibrahim Tepic.

5 It's a historical atlas of Bosnia and Herzegovina; Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina on geographic and historical maps. This was published in

7 2002. This book has been translated into English and German. It will

8 soon be published. In addition to that I'm the author of about 30

9 academic studies papers. I'm also the author of seven textbooks in

10 history. These are textbooks for primary and secondary schools.

11 Q. Dr. Sehic, would it be correct to say that in the last 15 years

12 you have been mainly involved in the history of Bosnia and Herzegovina in

13 a professional sense?

14 A. Yes, that would be correct. And it's been a little over 15 years

15 perhaps.

16 Q. Thank you very much. Dr. Sehic, could you now tell me how it is

17 that you wrote the report that we will be discussing today before this

18 Trial Chamber?

19 A. I think that at the beginning of October, I contacted Defence

20 counsel for General Hadzihasanovic and for Mr. Kubura, and after having

21 been informed of what this report should consist of, I agreed to write it,

22 but at the time I had a scholarship and I was studying in Germany, and I

23 thought that after completing my studies in Germany, I would get involved

24 in writing this report.

25 Q. What was Defence counsel's main request apart from the fact that

Page 10951

1 they asked you whether as a professional or given your professional

2 duties, apart from being asked whether you could execute this task?

3 A. The main task that I was given had to do with portraying

4 international diplomacy and its effect on the political events in Bosnia

5 and Herzegovina in the course of 1992 and 1993, but the scope was

6 subsequently widened, and it was also necessary to address other issues.

7 For example, the relation between the Bosnian and Herzegovinian population

8 with regard to its cultural heritage.

9 Q. Mr. Sehic, in addition to these two specific issues, was the

10 subject of your expert report also the general historical background that

11 had an effect on the situation and the current position in

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

13 A. Yes. That was also the main task when I was requested to draft

14 this report. It was necessary to describe the historical background in

15 relation to the events referred to in the indictment.

16 Q. Mr. Sehic, could you now tell the Trial Chamber about the sources

17 and the material that you used when drafting your report?

18 A. Since I was -- I have been involved in the history of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina for a long time and I have spent a significant amount

20 of time in Germany, I used various kinds of literature. I had access to

21 such literature, and I analysed this literature from 1992 onwards. As for

22 other aspects that are important if one wants to analyse historical issues

23 or the historical background to the events that we are concerned with,

24 these aspects involved my investigation into Yugoslavia. They involved

25 participation in academic conferences. And as I had a number of

Page 10952

1 scholarships and was able to study abroad on a number of occasions, I

2 could examine, within the European context, what had been done with regard

3 to this subject. I was in a position to examine the relevant literature.

4 The Defence counsel provided me with archival material, above all

5 from the BH army and from the HVO. Also material from other case before

6 this Tribunal. For example, the Celebici, Blaskic, Kordic cases. So I

7 had a lot of material, a lot of literature I could refer to.

8 Q. Thank you. Tell me, what method or what was your methodology when

9 drafting your expert report?

10 A. When I was working on my expert report, the methodology I followed

11 was the one that any historian would follow. This had to do with

12 examining material from various sources. In addition, I used -- apart

13 from using material from various sources, it's necessary to point out that

14 you need to follow a comparative methodology. You have to compare the

15 material from various sources, and you have to check or verify certain

16 information, certain facts.

17 Q. Dr. Sehic, as an historian, are there any problems when it is

18 necessary to assess events that took place in the recent past?

19 A. For any historian, there are certain number of problems because of

20 so-called theory of historical distance. If one is to provide conclusions

21 about historical events in recent past, this is very difficult. One often

22 falls into certain traps, and one is thus unable to be objective or to

23 examine the matter from a number of viewpoints. It is only once there is

24 a certain historical distance, it is only after the passage of time that

25 one can provide the relevant conclusions in a more objective manner.

Page 10953

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Page 10954

1 Q. You mentioned that you analysed the Austro-Hungarian period, and

2 you mentioned the subject you now lecture in at the university. Since

3 part of your expert report also dealt with part of the history of the

4 state of Bosnia and Herzegovina, could you tell us whether when drafting

5 this report you consulted any other individuals or were you assisted by

6 anyone else?

7 A. Since this is not my strict field of academic interest and since

8 this is an important part of my expert report, I also consulted experts

9 from this area. Above all, I consulted Dr. Mustafa Imamovic who works at

10 the school of law in Sarajevo.

11 Q. Dr. Sehic, could you tell us which subject Mr. -- Dr. Mustafa

12 Imamovic lectures in?

13 A. Well, he lectures in the history of states and in law.

14 Q. Thank you. I see that you have the report before you. Could you

15 now tell us whether this is the report that you drafted in the manner that

16 you have already described, and is this the report that you provided

17 Defence counsel with?

18 A. Yes. This is the report in question.

19 Q. Could you tell us how you divided this report, how you broke it

20 down when drafting it?

21 A. This report consists of an introduction and seven parts. In the

22 introduction, we have general information about the Central Bosnian area,

23 and seven other parts indicated on the title page, from A to G. Under A,

24 we deal with the historical development of Bosnia and Herzegovina from the

25 10th century to 1980. Under B, the report deals with the main processes

Page 10955

1 in dissolution of the Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia from

2 1980 to 1991. The third part deals with political events in

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1990 up until 1992. The fourth part, under D,

4 deals with military and political developments in Bosnia and Herzegovina

5 from international recognition on the 6th -- or, rather, the 7th of April,

6 1992, and until the end of that year.

7 In the fifth part, under letter E, the subject dealt with is

8 Bosnia and Herzegovina and international diplomacy in the course of 1993.

9 And it also describes the political developments in Bosnia and Herzegovina

10 in that year.

11 The sixth part, under F, deals with Bosnia and Herzegovina in

12 1994. And under G, the political relations in Central Bosnia in 1994 and

13 in 1993 are described.

14 Q. Mr. Sehic, next to you I can see three binders. Can you please

15 tell us what these binders are all about, and did you hand over these

16 binders together with your expert report to the Defence team?

17 A. Yes. These three binders are archives, literature, and references

18 which were used while I was drafting my report. The footnotes in the

19 historical report can be found in the documents contained within these

20 three binders.

21 Q. Dr. Sehic, in addition to having drafted the report and in

22 addition to having handed over the relevant documents to the Defence team,

23 the documents that accompany your report, the report, did you also draft

24 another document, and did you hand it over together with your expert

25 report?

Page 10956

1 A. In addition to the expert report, I also handed over a set

2 containing a total of 17 historical maps. My objective was to illustrate

3 the expert report and to explain it better by providing additional

4 information based on these maps.

5 Q. Can you please tell us what the source was for compiling this set

6 of maps that you have just mentioned?

7 A. In order to compile this set of maps, I used several sources. I

8 myself am the author of the historical atlas of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

9 most of these maps can be found within that atlas. I also used some other

10 maps, the maps that were used in the Celebici case. I also used a set of

11 maps published by Professor Kasim Begic to cover the period after the year

12 1992. It was published in his book "Bosnia-Herzegovina from Vance-Owen

13 Plan to Dayton."

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the usher to

15 give the witness the original set of maps. The registry has photocopied

16 this set for us and they can be found at the end of all the documents.

17 This is to be done for the witness to recognise this set as his own

18 documents and to be able to use this set while answering my questions.

19 The original has been handed over together with our submission to

20 the Trial Chamber so the original document can also be found at the

21 registry. We all have coloured photocopied -- photocopies of all the 17

22 documents.

23 Q. Mr. Sehic, is this the document that you drafted?

24 A. Yes. This is the document that I drafted, a total of 17 maps.

25 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would kindly ask you to go to page 5

Page 10957

1 of your expert report. And this is also page 5 of the English translation

2 of your report.

3 Can you please tell me, what is the period from which date the

4 reliable data on Bosnia-Herzegovina, and what was its status up to the

5 15th century? At the same time, I would kindly ask you to illustrate your

6 words by showing it on map number 1.

7 Since we all have this map, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea to

8 have it put on the ELMO at the same time.

9 I don't know whether the whole map can be displayed on the ELMO

10 because the scale is 1:3. Thank you. I think this will suffice.

11 Can you please answer my question, Dr. Sehic.

12 A. The first reliable data on Bosnia-Herzegovina go back to mid-10th

13 century, the Byzantine emperor Constantine Porphyrogenitus, in his

14 document called "De Administrando Imperio," in other words, the

15 administration of the Empire, mentions Bosnia -- Bosnia, that is, for the

16 first time as a small state, horion Bosona, with two towns, Katera and

17 Desnek.

18 Q. The map that you have in front of you, what is it?

19 A. The map that we have in front of us depicts several historical

20 maps that encompass the period of the medieval ages. First and foremost,

21 the first map that we can see now --

22 Q. Can you point on the ELMO?

23 A. The first map that we can see is the map of the original Bosnia in

24 the 10th century. The second map, the second part of it, depicts Bosnia

25 and Herzegovina during the period of the reign of Ban Kulin.

Page 10958

1 Q. Can you please point to those lines on the ELMO, otherwise we

2 won't be able to follow your words.

3 A. This is the line. This is the territory. And the third territory

4 is the territory that existed during the reign of Stjepan Kotromanic.

5 This is Bosnia from that period of time. And the fourth territory that

6 you can see here is Bosnia and Herzegovina during the reign of

7 King Tvrtko.

8 And this is the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the 14th

9 century when Bosnia and Herzegovina was at its peak, when it was the

10 biggest. In 1377 Bosnia-Herzegovina became a kingdom.

11 Q. Dr. Sehic, can you please tell us what is represented by the thick

12 line on this map? It shows some borders, doesn't it?

13 A. This line represents the current borders of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina. It is the green line that you can see on the map.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Sehic, can you please tell us now what

16 changes occurred in the territory of the Balkan Peninsula and

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina in mid-15th century, and what was the status of Bosnia

18 and Herzegovina after these developments and changes?

19 As you are giving us your answer, can you please use the next map.

20 A. Significant changes in this area happened towards the end of the

21 14th century after the battle on the field of Kosovo. In the

22 south-eastern Europe, the Osman Empire became a very important creator of

23 the politics in this part of Europe and especially in the Balkan

24 Peninsula.

25 For Bosnia, these developments will have a major impact since the

Page 10959

1 Osman Empire appeared in Bosnia in the 30s of the 15th century in the

2 parish of Vrhbosna where they built their first strongholds. This will

3 continue until the year 1463 when Bosnia fell under the Osman rule.

4 From the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina -- or Bosnia, rather,

5 there's a further onslaught of Turks and the plan was to advance towards

6 central Europe. In the territory of Bosnia, an administrative unit was

7 established as well as the forces that would be capable of advancing

8 further and enlarging the Turkish Empire.

9 In 1570, the Bosnian eyalet was established. It was also called

10 the Bosnian pashalik. According to this map that you can see here, you

11 can see where the borders of the Bosnian eyalet were in the year 1570.

12 You can also see that its northern borders were in the area of today's

13 Slavonija all the way up to Virovitica, and that the territory of Bosnia

14 was much larger than territory of the medieval Bosnia.

15 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Sehic. Kindly look at page 6 of your

16 report, the last three sentences in the Bosnian original or in the English

17 version, page 3, the last nine lines in the third paragraph.

18 Can you please explain what principle of life was applied in

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina for centuries?

20 A. The mixing of population in the territory of Bosnia caused the

21 birth of such a society which in modern time is called a multi-ethnic

22 society. There was a mosaic of population which involved the Sephardic

23 Jews who came to this territory in mid-16th century. Let me draw a

24 parallel with the religious communities in Europe. It is well known that

25 this was the period of religious war and that the general principle which

Page 10960

1 prevailed in Europe was Cuius regio, eius religio. Bosnia for the most

2 part or the Bosnian eyalet departed from this principle. Proof of that

3 can also be the fact that in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the territory that

4 covers one square kilometre, you could find the religious buildings of all

5 the main monotheistic religions. In the territory of one square kilometre

6 in Sarajevo, you can find a Jewish synagogue, an Islamic mosque, a

7 Catholic church, an Orthodox church, a Protestant church as well. So

8 Bosnia departed from the general principle that prevailed in Europe at

9 that time.

10 Q. Mr. Sehic, can you please now tell us how the borders of the

11 so-called Bosnian eyalet, throughout centuries and especially in the 18th

12 and 19th century changed, and when was it that they assumed the shape that

13 Bosnia and Herzegovina as a state has today?

14 A. The forming of the border of the modern Bosnia-Herzegovina is a

15 very dynamic process which is very hard to follow in all of its details.

16 Towards the end of the 17th century, the Karlovac peace treaty established

17 borders on the River Sava. There were a number international agreements

18 which registered a situation after various wars. In the same fashion, the

19 borders of the state of Bosnia was -- was registered. The first one was

20 the Peace Treaty of Carlowitz, then the Treaty of Possarowitz in 1718,

21 then the Belgrade Treaty in 1739 and Sistova Treaty in 1791. All of these

22 changes which took place in the 18th century were registered by the Vienna

23 Congress which took place in 19 -- in 1814 and -- 1814 and 1815.

24 This Congress made some change -- some decisions implicitly

25 recognising the borders of the Osman Empire and sultan as the superior

Page 10961

1 ruler of the Balkan Peninsula, and implicitly this is how the borders of

2 Bosnia were recognised.

3 Q. Dr. Sehic, I would now kindly ask you to go to another historical

4 period, and this period was described by yourself on pages 7 and 8 or the

5 English page 7. Can you please tell us about the status of

6 Bosnia-Herzegovina during the reign of Austro-Hungarian Empire?

7 A. When Bosnia-Herzegovina was occupied in 1878, after 415 years

8 Bosnia abandoned the Islamic influence and adapted itself to the Western

9 influences. As far as the legal position of Bosnia and Herzegovina during

10 the Austro-Hungarian administration from 1878 to 1918, there would be

11 several stages. Bosnia was occupied in 1878, and this is the situation

12 that would remain until the year 1908 when Bosnia was annexed. And it was

13 finally annexed to the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Until that year, the

14 sultan was still the supreme commander or the supreme ruler.

15 Some significant changes, despite of what was happening, despite

16 the annexation, some significant changes did not take place in the state

17 itself. Its legal position remained the same.

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina did not belong either to the Austrian or to

19 Hungarian part of the monarchy. It was perceived as a separate part of

20 this Empire. That's why the inhabitants of Bosnia and Herzegovina did not

21 have the nationality of either Austria or Hungarian. They enjoyed a

22 specific status. They were considered members of the state of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since the witness

25 has provided us with a number of documents, the Defence does not intend to

Page 10962

1 show all of these documents to the witness. That is why we have made a

2 compilation for the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution. I would like to

3 show the witness this compilation. And we have marked these documents

4 with our numbers from our document list. This will help us later on when

5 we tender all of these documents for admission. We are going to be using

6 the numbers that are already on our list.

7 I would now kindly ask the usher to help us with showing this

8 compilation to the witness and to our learned friends and the

9 Trial Chamber. We have actually already provided the Prosecution and the

10 Trial Chamber with the compilation of documents that Dr. Sehic has

11 provided us with.

12 Q. Dr. Sehic, in the first section are documents from your annex A.

13 I would just like you to confirm that the first document is an excerpt

14 from the historical atlas of Bosnia-Herzegovina which you wrote.

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. The second document, could you tell us what it is, please, and

17 whether that has anything to do with the position of Bosnia and

18 Herzegovina during the Austro-Hungarian administration. That is document

19 number 03500, and it was in your annex under number 4.

20 A. This is the land constitution for Bosnia and Herzegovina for 1910.

21 In order to regulate the legal status of Bosnia and Herzegovina, this land

22 constitution was declared, or the statute, as it was called, for

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

24 Q. Thank you. I would now like to ask you, Dr. Sehic, to tell us,

25 please, what changes were brought to Bosnia and Herzegovina with

Page 10963

1 World War I, and if you can explain to us what we can see on map number 3.

2 A. World War I brought great sorrow and suffering and destruction to

3 the South Slav peoples, but it also brought on the possibility of creating

4 a common state. The main supporters of this unification were the Serbian

5 government and the Yugoslav committee.

6 Already in the course of the war, you could sense the future

7 concept of the resolution of the Yugoslav question. On one side there was

8 the concept that the regions which were under Austro-Hungarian

9 administration, a third body be formed within the monarchy which was

10 provided for in case the central axis forces won. On the other hand,

11 there was a different solution in case the entente powers won.

12 Significant changes came about in 1918, especially towards the end

13 of the war. In October, this third body, entity was formed which

14 comprised the property, the lands or the territory which had been under

15 the Austro-Hungarian administration. Since the end of the war was close

16 and since the 14 points declared by US President Wilson on the rights of

17 nations and peoples and states to self-determination had already been

18 published, the Croatian council severed its legal connections with

19 Hungary, and after that a state of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes was formed,

20 a state which comprised the areas which had formerly been under

21 Austro-Hungarian administration.

22 Q. Dr. Sehic, does that mean that Bosnia and Herzegovina in its

23 entirety entered this state?

24 A. Yes. It became a part of this state in its entirety, which would

25 exist for the next two months until the 1st of December, the decree of

Page 10964

1 December 1st, which created the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes.

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in any case, in the state of Slovenes, Croats, and

3 Serbs, had its own representatives, its people's assembly or council and

4 its bodies.

5 Q. Thank you very much. Now I would like to ask you to tell us what

6 went on in the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, and what position

7 did Bosnia and Herzegovina have in this kingdom, especially from the

8 aspect of the protection of its historical territories?

9 A. In this euphoric moment in 1918, it seemed as if finally the South

10 Slavs had united. At the end of 1918, the Austro-Hungarian monarchy broke

11 apart, and on the ruins of that kingdom and the newly established country

12 of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes, this Kingdom of Serb, Croats, and Slovenes

13 was formed.

14 Q. Could you please look at map 4 and explain to us what we can see

15 there?

16 A. This is the formation about -- of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats,

17 and Slovenes on 1st of December, 1918. And you can see, especially

18 regarding the status of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that it was still a separate

19 territorial entity.

20 Q. Could you please now look at document in your annex A which has

21 number 0351. The constitution of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and

22 Slovenes. And can you tell us whether there was a guarantee there for the

23 preservation of the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. Yes. This is the St. Vitus Day constitution adopted on the 28th

25 of June, 1921. Thanks to the fact that the Yugoslav Muslim organisation

Page 10965

1 managed to work for the preservation of the territorial integrity of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina. So Article 135 of the St. Vitus constitution provided

3 for the okrugs from the periods of the Austro-Hungarian monarchy become

4 districts. After that, Bosnia-Herzegovina preserved its territorial

5 integrity, which it enjoyed also during the period of the Austro-Hungarian

6 rule.

7 Q. Now I would like to ask you, Dr. Sehic, to move to the part of

8 your findings on pages 11 to 14. In the English text it's from page 9 to

9 12. And if you could explain to us which events between the two world

10 wars had a significant influence on the position of Bosnia and Herzegovina

11 and also a more far-reaching effect on events in the -- which have just

12 passed.

13 A. The creation of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes in

14 itself was burdened -- created a burden for the political relations within

15 the country. These political relations will culminate in 1928 with the

16 killing in the national assembly. The way out or solution from this

17 situation was sought by King Aleksandar, who on the 6th of January, 1929

18 declared a dictatorship, he imposed a dictatorship, an effect of which was

19 a centralisation of the state and which led to administrative territorial

20 divisions.

21 Q. We see now on the screen image 05. Could you please tell us what

22 that is and what it means for the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

23 which as we could see on earlier maps was -- had maintained its

24 territorial integrity throughout history.

25 A. This map shows the administrative territorial divisions of the

Page 10966

1 Kingdom of Yugoslavia under the law on the administrative territorial

2 divisions dating from the 3rd of October, whereby the country was divided

3 into nine banovinas and the country was renamed Yugoslavia.

4 On this map, when Bosnia-Herzegovina is looked at, you can see its

5 entire territorial decomposition. Why? The reason for that was that its

6 historical territories were divided amongst five banovina areas. For the

7 first time -- for a long time in its history, Bosnia and Herzegovina goes

8 through complete territorial disintegration or decomposition, and this

9 will stay in force all -- until 1939.

10 The relationships amongst the parties in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia

11 were deteriorating. These were the relationships between Serbs and Croats

12 also, and they were leading towards a final solution of the Croatian

13 question. After 1929, or after the introduction of the dictatorship or

14 the imposition of the dictatorship, this relationship deteriorated to a

15 great degree which culminated after 1935, and this will then bring in a

16 period in which new solutions were being sought as reflected by the threat

17 of the fascist forces, Germany and Italy, which would force the ruling

18 powers from Belgrade to find a solution in reaching an agreement with the

19 Croats. This agreement was signed in August 1939, and it will establish

20 the banovina of Croatia.

21 Q. Please, could you point out on the map all these things that you

22 are talking about. On map 06 could you please tell us how this was done

23 and what the effects of this were for Bosnia and Herzegovina in that

24 period, and also in the immediate past, the recent past.

25 A. You can see this division from 1939 on this map. If we look at

Page 10967

1 this map, the areas in green show the territory of the banovina of

2 Croatia, and the rest of the territory is the territory of the other of

3 the banovina areas which are not part of the banovina of Croatia, after

4 which there was a project or a concept which emerged of Serbian countries.

5 So everything that was outside of the boundaries of the banovina of

6 Croatia was supposed to be united with -- with the capital in Skopje in

7 Macedonia, and these were to be Serbian lands.

8 Q. Could you please show us this on the map. Is this the map of the

9 Serbian countries that you have just mentioned?

10 A. Yes, that is correct. That is that area that was supposed to make

11 up the rest of the territory which was outside of the banovina of Croatia.

12 Q. Dr. Sehic, were there forces in Bosnia and Herzegovina which were

13 opposed to this division of their ancient territory?

14 A. In this period following the Cvetkovic-Macek agreement and the

15 forming of the Croatian banovina in 1939 in Bosnia-Herzegovina itself

16 there were some changes. This way of conducting policies and maintaining

17 mutual relations created the need to begin a struggle for the autonomy of

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina, which meant that the Muslim population was looking

19 for a way out of the situation the way it was in acquiring autonomy for

20 Bosnia and Herzegovina, which culminated at the end of December in 1939.

21 All these divisions had a significant effect on future

22 developments, because they would start numerous debates about who Bosnia

23 actually belonged to, which would then culminate in war in 1941. All

24 these plans on the division of the country and the redistribution of its

25 territory to a large extent contributed to the events which occurred after

Page 10968

1 the outbreak of the war.

2 Q. Mr. Sehic, I would now like to look -- you to look at map 08 and

3 tell us what was happening in Bosnia and Herzegovina in World War II.

4 Which forces once again restored the historical territory of Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina and restored its equal position in relation to the others?

6 A. On map number 8, you can see the division of Yugoslavia following

7 the occupation in 1941. What can we see here? Yellow indicates the

8 Independent State of Croatia, which was formed in Zagreb in 1941. And the

9 other parts which were parts of different sectors and belonged to

10 different forces, collaborationist forces --

11 Q. I think that there is no need for you to go into any detail for

12 that period, but you can just tell us whether this was a part of Bosnia

13 and Herzegovina which was exposed to a lot of suffering, especially as a

14 result of the active -- activities of the fascist forces of Italy and

15 Germany.

16 A. After the occupation of Yugoslavia and its division into spheres

17 of interest and the establishment of demarcation lines which ran

18 throughout the territory of Yugoslavia, quisling systems were also set up.

19 They were different types. Their objectives were different, but their

20 common goal was that they participated in the organisation of the

21 occupying power's authority. These quisling systems I've already said in

22 Zagreb on the 10th of April, the Independent State of Croatia was

23 established. This was the Ustasha movement. And in the territory of

24 Serbia, the Chetnik movement came to the fore.

25 All these coalition forces or all these systems participated in

Page 10969

1 the ruling structures of Italy and Germany.

2 Q. What was their attitude towards the Bosniak Muslim population and

3 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

4 A. After 1941, after October 1941, Bosnia became a part of the

5 Independent State of Croatia. The name of Bosnia and Herzegovina could no

6 longer be publicly mentioned in the media, in public speeches.

7 After the Independent State of Croatia was established, a part of

8 the Bosniak population joined that power while the rest remained in

9 opposition to it. A large number of people, the intelligentsia primarily,

10 business people, the clergy were opposed to the Ustasha authorities and

11 the Independent State of Croatia. The result of that were the well-known

12 anti-Ustasha resolutions which were adopted after 1941 in different towns

13 in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14 Q. As part of this bundle of documents, could you please look at

15 document under number 4. I'm talking about the bundle of documents. And

16 could you please tell us whether these are resolutions which you have just

17 now mentioned and which were a form of resistance to the Ustasha terror

18 and resistance of -- towards or opposition to Muslims who participated

19 amongst the ranks of Ustashas.

20 A. Yes, these were such resolutions. They were adopted in a number

21 of towns in Bosnia. And as you can see, one such resolution was

22 translated into English. This is the resolution adopted in the town of

23 Mostar, but the other adopted resolutions were more or less the same. And

24 the essence was that they condemned the crimes that were committed. They

25 condemned the crimes committed by the Ustashas. They did not back those

Page 10970

1 crimes, and they condemned Muslims who had participated in such acts.

2 Q. Dr. Sehic, I have an additional part within this question. What

3 was the Independent State of Croatia's attitude towards the Muslim nation?

4 Did they recognise them as a separate and distinct people, and whatever

5 the attitude of the Chetnik movement in relation to that part of the

6 population of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

7 A. As far as the attitude of these forces towards Bosnia-Herzegovina

8 and the Muslims is concerned and in particular towards the population, as

9 I have already said, some of the inhabitants were parts of the Ustasha

10 movement but others were part of the resistance movement. But the Ustasha

11 believed that all Croats would live in the territory of the NDH, the

12 Independent State of Croatia. And the Muslims who for nationalist reasons

13 had been declared as the flower of Croathood.

14 On the other hand, with regard to the Muslims, other

15 collaborationist forces had a different attitude. For example, the

16 Chetniks. The numerous crimes committed in the course of 1941 and 1942

17 also had an influence on a change of attitude on the part of the Muslims,

18 the Croats, and the Serbs.

19 If in 1941 there was a revolt led by the communist leadership of

20 Yugoslavia, these crimes contributed to an extent to diminish the force of

21 the collaborationist forces and to strengthen the force of the partisans.

22 Q. Mr. Sehic, could you please have a look at map number 10 and tell

23 me what it represents, or, rather, within the anti-fascist movement, what

24 was the position of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

25 A. This map represents the idea of creating a Greater Serbia.

Page 10971

1 Q. I apologise. I'm now looking at the map that we commented on a

2 minute ago. This is a map of Serbia and NDH, the Independent State of

3 Croatia, but I wanted you to have a look at map number 10. We're talking

4 about the anti-fascist movement and the position of Bosnia and Herzegovina

5 in relation to this movement, in relation to the first session of

6 ZAVNOBiH, the Anti-fascist Council of People's Liberation of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina in the first session of AVNOJ, the Anti-fascist Council of

8 People's Liberation of Yugoslavia.

9 A. At the same time that they were fighting again the occupier in the

10 country in 1941 and 1942, the construction of people's power commenced.

11 In various parts of the country, they started forming anti-fascist

12 councils of people's liberation. Such a council for Bosnia-Herzegovina

13 was formed between the 25th and 26th of November, 1943 in Mrkonjic Grad.

14 What's the importance of this council and the resolution? Above

15 all, the result of the war was that certain results obtained were

16 legalised and resolution of the Anti-fascist Council of People's

17 Liberation confirmed the creation of the statehood of Bosnia-Herzegovina

18 and confirmed the idea of re-establishing Bosnia and Herzegovina as a

19 state. This decision was late supplemented or, rather, confirmed at the

20 second session of the Anti-fascist Council of People's Liberation of

21 Yugoslavia in 1943 in Jajce.

22 This process of creating a state in Bosnia and Herzegovina was

23 continued in 1944 with the second session of ZAVNOBiH, the Anti-fascist

24 Council of People's Liberation in Bosnia-Herzegovina. And this ZAVNOBiH

25 was supposed to become a legitimate state organ. And in April, 1945, at

Page 10972

1 the third session, this was also done in Sarajevo.

2 Q. Mr. Sehic, the declaration resolutions of ZAVNOBiH, and AVNOJ, how

3 did they regulate the issue of peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina? Who did

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina belong to?

5 A. In the resolution, it is stated that Bosnia and Herzegovina is

6 neither Serbian nor Croatian nor Muslim. It is both Serbian and Croatian

7 and Muslim.

8 Q. Could we have a look at the document under A14 now?

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But, Mrs. Residovic, it's

10 half past three. It would be best to have our break now, and we will

11 resume at about 4.00. Thank you.

12 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may take the floor.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Dr. Sehic, could you please have a look in the bundle of

17 documents, the ones under annex A, 5, 6, and 7. That is at the end of

18 annex A. And could you tell me what are these documents that represent

19 the resolutions of ZAVNOBiH and AVNOJ, about which you have just testified

20 and in which it is just stated that Bosnia-Herzegovina should be an equal

21 state within the SFRY, the Federative Republic of Yugoslavia.

22 A. Yes. These documents refer to the creation of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina or, rather, to its status, organisation as a state. These are

24 the resolutions from the first session of ZAVNOBiH, from the second

25 session of ZAVNOBiH, as well as from the third session. One should also

Page 10973

1 mention the AVNOJ resolution. And these resolutions were adopted at the

2 first session of ZAVNOBiH in Mrkonjic Grad. They were made legally valid

3 at the time.

4 Q. Thank you, Dr. Sehic. Could we now have a look at the part of

5 your report that concerns -- on page 23 and page 30, or, rather, in

6 English -- in the English report it's between page 19 and 25.

7 And tell me, with regard to the Socialist Federative Republic of

8 Yugoslavia, what sort of events were there that heralded the break-up of

9 Yugoslavia, and could you tell me about the consequences of the events in

10 1991 and 1992 for Bosnia and Herzegovina. What were the consequences of

11 these events for Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12 A. The crucial event that had an influence on all the events that

13 occurred from 1980 until 1992 was the death of Josip Broz Tito, a

14 charismatic figure and a key person from the Socialist Federal Republic of

15 Yugoslavia. One could say that with the death of Tito, a certain phase in

16 Yugoslavia's history came to an end, a phase that could be -- that one

17 could describe as a peaceful one.

18 There were significant changes in 1980 in that individual Yugoslav

19 republics were placed within the historical framework. According to the

20 1974 constitution, all Yugoslav republics were granted to a certain extent

21 the character of statehood.

22 The general social crisis which occurred in Yugoslavia after 1980,

23 which was evident in the economy, in rampant inflation, was evident in the

24 fact that the standard of living was that of the 1960s. These factors had

25 a significant influence on the subsequent stage. This general social

Page 10974

1 crisis accompanied by a breakdown of the governing ideology resulted in,

2 one could say, after a 40-year taboo period, resulted in a creation of the

3 conditions for the appearance of nationalist forces, and the ground was

4 extremely fertile for such forces.

5 The centre of this -- these nationalistic disturbances was not in

6 the periphery of Yugoslavia but in the core of Yugoslavia, in Serbia. So

7 one could say that this eruption resulted in the break-up of the entire

8 Yugoslav construction.

9 Two important documents heralded this new nationalist ideology.

10 There were two petitions -- or, rather, the first one was from 1986, and

11 it concerned an expulsion of -- or the prosecution of Serbs in Kosovo.

12 And then there was the memorandum of the Serbian academy of arts and

13 science, and these documents one could say established the groundwork for

14 a nationalist type of politics.

15 What one should also point out is that the memorandum of the

16 Serbian Academy of Arts And Science from 1986 established the groundworks

17 for this ideology and it consisted of three main objectives. The first

18 one was the homogenisation of peoples, the second was the centralisation

19 of Serbia, and the third one was carrying through the idea of

20 Greater Serbia.

21 The practical implementation of this political idea commenced

22 after 1987 with the arrival of Slobodan Milosevic on the political scene.

23 He, above all, tried to take advantage of the Kosovo problem and put oil

24 on the fire, and by expressing his solidarity with the Serbs in Kosovo he

25 established such a route in the main institutions. In order to centralise

Page 10975

1 Serbia it was necessary to revoke the autonomy of Vojvodina and Kosovo,

2 two autonomous provinces which according to the constitution from 1974

3 were no longer under the control of Belgrade. Tito had granted autonomy

4 to Vojvodina and Kosovo.

5 In the 1986 memorandum, it is also said that Serbia doesn't have

6 control over its own territory, and for this reason it was necessary to

7 deprive Kosovo and Vojvodina of their autonomy.

8 Q. Mr. Sehic, I don't want to go into the details of those

9 occurrences in Serbia, but could you now tell me how those events had an

10 influence or affected other parts of Yugoslavia? What sort of movements

11 were there in the other republics, and at sometime in 1991, were there any

12 armed conflicts? Did war break out?

13 A. There were two diametrically opposed concepts. One was a federal

14 one, and the other was a confederal one which was favoured by Slovenia and

15 Croatia above all. The agreements that were reached in the course of 1989

16 and 1990 exacerbated these positions. So when -- it was impossible to

17 agree on the concept of a state that would satisfy all the parties

18 involved. Slovenia and Croatia decided to declare their independence in

19 1991. This is what they in fact did, and that is when the first war in

20 the area of Yugoslavia broke out.

21 Q. The events in Slovenia and Croatia, did they have an effect on

22 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and could you say whether the material and

23 documents that you had provided you with a basis upon which you could come

24 to the conclusion that they did have such an effect?

25 A. All these events and the war in Slovenia and Croatia in 1991 had

Page 10976

1 significant consequences for Bosnia and Herzegovina above all. After

2 peace had been established in 1991 in Slovenia, all the military units

3 that had previously been deployed in Slovenia were moved to the territory

4 of Bosnia and Herzegovina. The main parts of the corps were moved to

5 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and at the time they said that Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina was the largest barracks in the world.

7 In -- as far as policy -- policies are concerned, there was

8 significant changes. Serbian autonomous regions were formed, and they

9 continued to proclaim such regions, the existence of such regions in the

10 course of 1991. Apart from declaring existence of such Serbian autonomous

11 regions, the Croats also declared the existence of Croatian autonomous

12 regions. So, these two ideas were present in the territory of Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina.

14 Q. Mr. Sehic, did the international community take note of those

15 problems, and did they respond to them in good time?

16 A. Well, at the beginning one could say that the international

17 community was not prepared for what happened in Yugoslavia, for what

18 happened in the territory of Yugoslavia. It's a fact that all the

19 countries, and in particular the main countries in world politics insisted

20 that the Yugoslav federation should be preserved whatever the form of this

21 federation. The material aid was also offered for Yugoslavia to become an

22 integral part of European political processes, but one could say that it

23 was impossible to do anything more than what was done. The international

24 community reacted at -- at quite a late date, so it was only after the

25 conflict in Slovenia and Croatia broke out that it issued a number of

Page 10977

1 resolutions and became more actively involved in these events.

2 A resolution was adopted according to which an embargo was to be

3 imposed on delivering weapons to any area within the former Yugoslavia.

4 Q. Mr. Sehic, at that time when, as you said, various Serbian

5 autonomous regions and various Croatian autonomous regions were created,

6 at that time what was the structure of the population of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina, and could you please answer this question with a reference to

8 maps number 11 and 12.

9 A. As far as the population of Bosnia and Herzegovina is concerned

10 and its distribution, the last census took place in 1991. I would like to

11 go back in time and look at the history of the whole thing.

12 Over the past hundred years, to a large extent the distribution of

13 the population in Bosnia and Herzegovina has been changed. The 1885

14 census showed that there were over 50 per cent of mixed settlements in

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina. With time, the percentage decreased [as

16 interpreted]. So according to the next census, the 1991 census, the

17 number of mixed settlements in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina was 80

18 out of 100.

19 In 1991, it was often said that the distribution of the population

20 in Bosnia-Herzegovina reminded of a leopard skin. There were almost no

21 ethnically uniform territories save for the territory of

22 Western Herzegovina.

23 Q. These maps, maps number 11 and 12 with the official overview of

24 the distribution of the population, do they reflect exactly what you have

25 just told us?

Page 10978

1 A. Yes. This may be concluded from these two maps. This is the

2 distribution of the population in 1991 and the participation in each of

3 the peoples in the total population. And the second map depicts -- in the

4 second map, however, you can see the majority population surpassing 50 per

5 cent in particular areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

6 Q. Little while ago you told us that there were two opposing

7 nationalist politics and that under their influence there was the creation

8 of various so-called nationalist autonomous regions in Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina and their character was primarily a nationalist one.

10 Before I put a question to you, Mr. Sehic, with regard to the two

11 maps that we have seen, was it at all possible to divide Bosnia and

12 Herzegovina according to the national criteria or the ethnic criteria?

13 A. If one were to carry out such a division according to the ethnic

14 criteria, this could only be done by force, and this could only be done

15 against all the principles of what was happening and what had been known

16 in the history of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

17 Q. You have also told us, Mr. Sehic, that the regionalisation of

18 Bosnia and Herzegovina and creation of autonomous regions was the result

19 of certain desires of nationalist circles. At that time, did our

20 neighbours discuss the issue of Bosnia-Herzegovina? What was their

21 attitude towards the equality of that state with regard to the other

22 republics of the former Yugoslavia? What was their idea? What did they

23 want to leave to the most numerous population in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

24 Can you please look at map 13 and use it for your answer if you're in the

25 position to answer my question.

Page 10979

1 A. As far as this map is concerned, this depicts a nationalistic

2 concept of Serbian autonomous regions. This is more or less this part of

3 the territory, and this part of the territory on the right-hand side. The

4 blue colour depicts the Croatian autonomous regions in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

5 This is the region that I'm talking about.

6 Now, when you look at this map, what is without any colour, this

7 was foreseen as the territory to be given to Muslims. So the territory

8 for the most numerous people in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and according to the

9 1991 census they made up 43 per cent of the total population, and they

10 were given only 3.52 per cent of the whole territory of Bosnia and

11 Herzegovina.

12 Q. Thank you very much. Mr. Sehic, did there come a time when the

13 international community started getting more seriously involved in the

14 issue of the former Yugoslavia? What was the status or what opinions did

15 they voice with regard to Bosnia and Herzegovina?

16 A. The international community started looking at this issue from

17 October 1991. The issue became the top of the agenda in December. The

18 Badinter Commission was established. Its president was the president of

19 the French Constitutional Court, Mr. Badinter. On the 7th of December,

20 1991, this commission established that the -- when the Yugoslavian

21 republic were being established, this was not a secession but a breakdown

22 of the federal state of Yugoslavia.

23 The European Community, on the 16th of February, 1991, provided

24 all the details for the establishment of new states in the former

25 Soviet Union and the former Yugoslavia, the states that would be

Page 10980

1 established on democratic principles.

2 Since the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina at its session on the

3 25th of December, 1991, submitted a request for the international

4 recognition of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the answer came very soon, on the

5 10th of January, 1992.

6 The commission to which this letter was addressed drafted its

7 opinion number 4 on the 11 January 1992, and it established that

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina met all the requirements for the republics that sought

9 international recognition. The constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina

10 guaranteed the rights of all its national groups, national minorities, and

11 the authorities of Bosnia-Herzegovina gave the guarantees that they did

12 not have any pretensions to any -- any aspirations towards the

13 neighbouring states.

14 The commission was of the opinion that Bosnia and Herzegovina met

15 the conditions for international recognition. However, since one day

16 before the Serbian republic was proclaimed as a -- as a state within the

17 republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the commission was of the opinion that

18 this decision should be tested at a referendum. This referendum was held

19 on the 29th of February and 1st of March, 1992, in Bosnia-Herzegovina. At

20 this referendum, over 60 per cent of the total population voted in favour

21 of the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

22 Q. Mr. Sehic, when was Bosnia and Herzegovina recognised as an

23 independent state?

24 A. It was on the 6th of April, 1992 that Bosnia and Herzegovina was

25 recognised by the European Union. And on the following day, on the 7th of

Page 10981

1 April, 1992, it was recognised by the United States of America.

2 The decision that was adopted by the European Union on the 6th of

3 April was moved to the 7th of April. So one can consider this to be the

4 day of the independence of Bosnia and Herzegovina since there is still

5 associations present, and that the 6th of April there was an attack on

6 Yugoslavia during the Second World War. And for that reason, the decision

7 that was adopted on the 6th of April was pushed forward to the 7th of

8 April, and this is now the day of the independence of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina.

10 Q. Can you please look at document 0378 and the first document under

11 D bearing the number 0385, and can you please tell me whether these are

12 the opinions of the Badinter Commission that you just mentioned or -- and

13 the document that served to recognise Bosnia, which was drafted in

14 Luxembourg on the 6th of April, 1991?

15 Have you been able to find these two documents? That's the last

16 document under C and the first document under D.

17 A. I have an opinion of the commission dated 11 January 1992, the

18 opinion number 4. And document under D is the declaration on proclaiming

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina an independent state, and the date on this document

20 is the 6th of April, 1991.

21 Q. Thank you very much. Dr. Sehic, in your expert report, in pages

22 from 37 to 51, you give the basic --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to remind you that

24 you have an hour and a half theoretically, so in about five minutes you

25 should bring your examination-in-chief to an end.

Page 10982

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, you have decided

2 that we have an hour and a half. I'll try to speed up, but I cannot

3 complete my examination-in-chief in five minutes. I will probably need 15

4 to 20 minutes. May I be granted 15 or 20 minutes?

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you may be granted that

6 time.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation].

8 Q. Dr. Sehic, on pages from 37 to 51 of your report, you have given

9 us an overview of the military and political developments in the years

10 1992 and 1993. Can you please tell us very briefly what are the

11 characteristics of the year 1992, after the 6th of April of that year,

12 1992.

13 A. After the 6th of April, 1992, the military operation started in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The Yugoslav army started participating in those

15 events. During the month of April and May, its -- it would be organised,

16 and it would become the army of the Serbian republic in Bosnia and

17 Herzegovina.

18 A series of military operations that involved paramilitaries led

19 to the occupation of the large part of the country, some 70 out of the

20 per cent of the country was occupied. The 30 per cent was the area of

21 Central Bosnia and the area around Bihac. However, during the first

22 onslaught, the entire area of Eastern Bosnia came under the occupation.

23 A series of resolutions and decisions passed by the United Nations

24 and the international institutions implicate the army in those events, and

25 that is why they passed a certain number of resolutions in 1992 which

Page 10983

1 blamed the military bodies and the political bodies in Belgrade. That's

2 why in the course of 1992 a lot of resolutions were adopted introducing

3 sanctions against Serbia and the former Yugoslavia.

4 As far as the other political events in Bosnia and Herzegovina are

5 concerned, there were still two options immediately after the break-out of

6 the war in 1992. Since this area, as we have already said, was proclaimed

7 the Croatian autonomous region, this led to the establishment of the

8 Croatian state of Herceg-Bosna, which was another paramilitary state which

9 had all the characteristics of the SAO [as interpreted]. However, it was

10 never legalised and recognised. On the 14th of September, the

11 constitutional court of Bosnia-Herzegovina proclaimed this formation to be

12 illegal.

13 Q. Dr. Sehic, from this part can you please answer just one question.

14 You have already discussed the issue of the international diplomacy.

15 Bosnia and Herzegovina was proclaimed independent and became a member of

16 the United Nations. Can you please tell me, what measures were put in

17 place by the international community in order to help their member to

18 protect its independent and territorial integrity?

19 A. Since Bosnia and Herzegovina, on the 22nd of May, 1992, became a

20 member of the United Nations, according to the United Nations Charter, the

21 United Nations were duty-bound to provide all forms of assistance to its

22 member. However, this was not the case in the case of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

23 Q. Was Bosnia and Herzegovina in a position to help itself? Were

24 there any instruments in place, put in place by the international

25 community that restricted their ability to help themselves?

Page 10984

1 A. Yes, there were such instruments. I believe that Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina was punished by the decision that was adopted in 1991 by which

3 an embargo was put on the import of arms.

4 First and foremost, the Yugoslav People's Army was very

5 well-armed. It was the third- or fourth-ranking military force in the

6 territory of the Balkan Peninsula. Bosnia and Herzegovina remained

7 unarmed, unprotected, and all the assistance that it received boiled down

8 to humanitarian aid.

9 Q. Can you please look at map 14 and tell me, please, whether it

10 represents the formation that you have just mentioned that was known as

11 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

12 A. Yes. This is a map of Herceg-Bosna, which encompasses 30

13 districts, and according to the structure, to a large extent this very

14 much reflects the territory of the Croatian banovina from the year 1939.

15 Q. Dr. Sehic, towards the end of 1992 and in 1993, did the

16 international community try in other ways to solve the problem of war in

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina? How did these initiatives end?

18 A. Towards the end of 1992 and the -- already in the second half of

19 1992, there was the so-called Geneva conference which would led to some

20 results at the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993. The result of all

21 that was the Vance-Owen Plan which was drafted in 1993 of that year. This

22 document bring about major changes and would have impact on the

23 developments which would take place in the territory of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina and especially in Central Bosnia.

25 Q. Can you please tell us why was this document very important? Why

Page 10985

1 did it have such major consequences?

2 A. The Vance-Owen Plan which was published on the 2nd of January,

3 1993, involved four documents that were success civil signed between

4 January and March 1993. The main reason why this plan was important was

5 as follows: According to the agreement, the signing of all the parts of

6 the Vance-Owen Plan would put this plan in effect. However, what happened

7 was that Croats signed all the parts of this peace plan during the months

8 of January and February. The Muslims signed all these documents in

9 January, February, and March. However, the Serbian republic never signed

10 this peace plan. First they refused to sign it on the 2nd of April in

11 Bileca, and then on the 26th of April. So this plan effectively never

12 took off the ground and was never put in effect.

13 Q. There have been many exhibits brought before this Tribunal about

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina, the HVO, and the Croatian Community of

15 Herceg-Bosna. Could you please tell us based on the documents you had at

16 your disposal, what was the approach to the implementation of this plan

17 which was carried out by Bosnia or the Croatian part of it?

18 A. In this documentary part, there were several documents which point

19 to the way. When we're talking about the Vance-Owen Plan and its

20 influence on the political and military events, I believe that two

21 documents are crucial here. The first one is from the 15th of January,

22 1993, and that is from a meeting which was held in Mostar, which provided

23 under five or six items for the implementation of the Vance-Owen Plan.

24 Although there was no definitive agreement and this wasn't signed, the

25 implementation began unilaterally.

Page 10986

1 Q. Could you please just tell us who held this meeting.

2 A. The meeting was held by the military and political leadership of

3 Herceg-Bosna.

4 Q. And what happened after this meeting?

5 A. After the meeting, the differences between the Army of Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina and the Croatian Defence Council became greater and became

7 even more sharp following a meeting in Mostar on the 3rd of April, 1993,

8 when an ultimatum was practically given to the Army of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina that it should withdraw from provinces which according to the

10 Vance-Owen Plan were to be given to the Croatian component, which meant

11 that the plan was supposed to be realised even before the peace process

12 was completed and the entire contract was signed.

13 Q. Dr. Sehic, could you please look at map 15 now and tell us what it

14 depicts.

15 A. You can see the Vance-Owen Plan on the map and the distribution or

16 the division into ten provinces. On this map, you can see what this

17 division was like. The Muslims were given provinces 1, 5, and 9. The

18 Croats were awarded 8 and 10 and 3. And then 2, 4, and 6 were given to

19 the Serbs.

20 Q. Since you said that the plan never went into effect, and you also

21 testified that it resulted in major consequences following the ultimatum

22 to the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, could you please tell us whether

23 international diplomacy tried to resolve this question in a different way,

24 and whether by the end of 1993 or early 1994 a solution was found which

25 stopped the conflict between the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the

Page 10987

1 HVO?

2 A. In mid-1993 and in late 1993, so by the end of the year, what was

3 symptomatic for the relationship at the time were actual -- several plans

4 of which I would just mention after the Vance-Owen Plan fell through,

5 which was insisted upon until June. During June and July, afterwards

6 different plans became current. For example, the Stoltenberg plan from

7 August 1993, which would be finalised only actually in late 1993 and early

8 1994. However, a more active engagement by the United States in the

9 course of 1994 has -- brought about a major turnaround. Prompted by the

10 American initiative, the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina was

11 established. The conflicts would stop, and in a certain way it could be

12 said that with the establishment of the federation, major problems were

13 solved which had been topical throughout the territory of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina, and I'm primarily thinking of the conflict between the Army

15 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO.

16 Q. Could you please look at map 16 and 17 and tell us what they show.

17 A. On map 16 you can see the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan which was

18 presented in August 1993. This plan to a certain extent deviated from the

19 Vance-Owen Plan, and the reasons for that are probably known to the

20 participants themselves, because in 1993 and 1994, agreements were reached

21 on the ratios of certain provinces. And it can be then assumed with some

22 degree of certainty that the role of the military operations played a role

23 in these -- in the distribution of these territories.

24 According to the plan, the Croats would receive 25.6 per cent of

25 the plan. This was under the Vance-Owen Plan. Under the Stoltenberg Plan

Page 10988

1 this figure was actually 17.5. While Muslims were given 26 per cent of

2 the Vance-Owen Plan under the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan this became

3 28 per cent, and then by the end of the year it actually became

4 33 per cent.

5 Q. Dr. Sehic, at the beginning you said it was practically impossible

6 to divide Bosnia-Herzegovina according to the ethnic principle, and you

7 showed us many plans by the international community that was trying to

8 help solve the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Could you please tell

9 us what the main disadvantages of these plans were?

10 A. Since I dealt with international diplomacy in a little more

11 detail, I can say that the relationships between the great powers had an

12 effect on these plans. Their mutual relations led to the fact that there

13 wasn't too much consistency in implementing the principles which had been

14 adopted as early as 1992.

15 Q. Thank you very much. Could you now look at map 17, which I would

16 like to show you, and tell us what that depicts.

17 A. Map 17 shows the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

18 formation of which was to a great degree the result of the activities of

19 the United States, who effected the conciliation of the two opposing sides

20 in the course of 1994, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the HVO. And

21 with the signing of the Washington Agreement, the Federation of

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina was established, also providing for the rest of the

23 country, meaning the Serbian part, would become a part of the state of

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina, which can be concluded on the basis of the

25 constitution under which the federation, the republic would be entrusted

Page 10989

1 with the defence and economic functions. The functions would be divided

2 into federation and state authority.

3 Q. According to the cultural heritage of the country, could you

4 please tell us why was it so important to treat this issue in your expert

5 report?

6 A. Never throughout its history spanning more than a thousand years

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina did not experience such a level of devastation and

8 destruction of cultural monuments as it did in this war. All the cultural

9 monuments attested to the long history and the presence of its -- of

10 Bosnia and the presence of its inhabitants in this territory. In this

11 war, there were attempts in a certain way to erase the roots of others, to

12 cleanse the territory, and to remove traces of the existence of other

13 peoples.

14 In my expert report, I dealt a little bit more with the question

15 of the treatment and the relationship of the -- or the position of the

16 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the Muslim population towards the

17 cultural heritage and the monuments of others.

18 Throughout their history, Muslims never destroyed religious

19 buildings. They actually took part in the building of such buildings.

20 And this was a sign of their desire to share their lives with other

21 people, people of other faiths.

22 Based on documents which were attached and which were available to

23 me, I provided an expert report drafted by expert Collins, which was made

24 for the UNESCO commission in 1995.

25 This question is actually one of the key questions when we're

Page 10990

1 talking about Bosnia and Herzegovina and its attitude towards cultural

2 monuments and cultural heritage.

3 Q. Thank you. You also mentioned at the end of your analysis a very

4 important question, the question of ethnic cleansing and the relocation of

5 the population, which was in early 1991 was mixed throughout the entire

6 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Can you please tell me why you

7 thought it was important to deal with this particular segment in a

8 historical context dealing with the history of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

9 A. I think it is important because it indicates that Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina never in its long history had ethnically or religiously

11 defined territories. If this did happen sometime in its history, it could

12 have been just a result of some violent events, and it would be counter to

13 any historical principles.

14 When we're talking about ethnic cleansing, which is a euphemism

15 for genocide, it's a different word for genocide, I believe that this idea

16 is an anachronous to this time, but it had a very important role in all

17 the events in 1992, 1993, and 1994. Numerous documents that I reviewed

18 led me to emphasise several. One would be a study or an analysis which

19 would be given to representatives of the United Nations and UNESCO. Also,

20 this is an analysis which deals with the main facts and the main

21 intentions underlying ethnic cleansing in a particular territory,

22 particularly the territory of Central Bosnia.

23 Q. And finally, Dr. Sehic, as a researcher who has been studying the

24 history of Bosnia and Herzegovina for a long time, a professional person,

25 could you please draw parallels between some tendencies in more recent and

Page 10991

1 more removed history and the events between 1992 and 1995 in Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina.

3 A. It's possible to draw some historical parallels. I believe that

4 the closest thing to the events from 1992 to 1995 was something that had

5 existed and was established in the period from 1939, just prior to the

6 outbreak of World War II. That was the establishment of the banovina of

7 Croatia, the project of Serbian lands, the struggle of Muslims for

8 autonomy of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I believe that these projects, these

9 historical projects, had been revived in the course of the war from 1992

10 to 1995.

11 Q. Thank you very much, Doctor.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I have finished with

13 the examination-in-chief of our expert. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mrs. Residovic. The

15 other Defence team representing General Kubura, do they wish to put any

16 questions to the expert witness?

17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We do

18 not have any questions for this witness.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I'm going

20 to turn to the Prosecution and give them the floor for their

21 cross-examination of the expert witness.

22 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Good afternoon, Mr. President; good afternoon

23 to everybody.

24 Cross-examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

25 Q. Good afternoon, Doctor. In response to my -- can you hear me?

Page 10992

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. In response to questions from my colleague, you stated that this

3 area that you dealt with is not, and I quote you, "My field of strict

4 academic interest." Bearing in mind that you have admitted that this area

5 is not in your field of strict academic interest, would you agree with me

6 then if I said that some of the suggestions made in the report may not be

7 accurate or reliable?

8 A. I would like to hear those suggestions and then I could give you

9 an answer.

10 Q. Okay. Let's first start with the list. You indicated to us that

11 you looked at a list of documents presented to you by the Defence in

12 arriving at some of your conclusions, but have you indicated in your

13 annexes these lists and where these sources were derived from?

14 A. Yes. Each source has been given. I have provided the source of

15 each document.

16 Q. So I take it that you have provided a list with documents or

17 excerpts from the Celebici case that you quoted. Is that on the list?

18 A. Yes, it is on the list.

19 Q. Did you, in drafting the report, consult Croatian documents such

20 as presidential transcripts, which is exhibited at the ICTY and which is

21 in the public domain? Did you use documents such as those in the drafting

22 of your report?

23 A. Such documents were not made available to me, and I did not have

24 access to them.

25 Q. What of the perhaps BH leadership material such as Presidency

Page 10993

1 minutes, assembly transcripts? Did you consider these in the drafting of

2 the report?

3 A. Yes, a part of them.

4 Q. Now, I wish to talk a little bit about the population

5 distribution, because you did touch quite a bit on it, and my question to

6 you is: Would I be correct in saying that the Croats of Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina had the least advantage of the population distribution?

8 A. Yes. I already said that in my report. And I looked at that, and

9 I analysed 1991, the results of the last population census. A greater

10 concentration of the Croat population was presented in only one part,

11 because the concentration of the Croat population was in three separate

12 regions. One of them was in Northern Bosnia. The second was in

13 Central Bosnia, and the third area with such a concentration was

14 Herzegovina.

15 In studies or when you analyse this, what you can see when you

16 look at the structure of the population in 1991, you can see that the

17 Muslims had the highest concentration of the populations up to

18 82 per cent. The concentration of the Serb population went up to 62 per

19 cent, while the concentration of the Croat population was below 50 per

20 cent, around 45 per cent.

21 An unfavourable fact for the distribution of the Croat population

22 was primarily when you looked at this region where they did have a

23 majority, and I mentioned four reasons for this in my expert report, that

24 these were the most economically backward areas in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

25 the most sparsely populated areas, especially the region of Herzegovina.

Page 10994

1 I also mentioned several other points. There were no economic or

2 political centres in these areas. And the fourth and last fact that I

3 mentioned in this context was the fact that all the important cultural

4 monuments of the Croats were outside of the areas where the Croat

5 population had a majority. And these four reasons which I mentioned lead

6 us to conclude that the Croat population was in a least favourable

7 position according to the results of the census from 1991.

8 Q. And in a nutshell, overall the Muslims were in the majority. Am I

9 correct?

10 A. Yes. According to the census from 1991, the Muslims had -- helped

11 over 43 per cent of the population. And this kept growing. And according

12 to the last two censuses of the population, first of all they came to

13 represent more than 50 per cent of the overall population of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina.

15 Q. In the spring of 1992, how would you describe the -- the Croatian

16 army's relationship with the BH army? In the spring of 1992.

17 A. This question isn't quite clear. What do you mean by the

18 relationship between the Croatian army and the BH army?

19 Q. Okay. Maybe I could put it a different way. Was the Croatian

20 army during that period, spring of 1992, welcome in Bosnia and

21 Herzegovina?

22 A. In the spring of 1992, there was no military activity in the

23 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. However, later on, after an armed

24 conflict broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the situation changed.

25 As far as the Croatian army is concerned, there was a UN

Page 10995

1 resolution adopted on the 18th of May, 1992, according to which the

2 military forces, the JNA and the Croatian army, were to withdraw from

3 Bosnia and Herzegovina or to place themselves under the control of the

4 official organs of power in Bosnia and Herzegovina, namely the Presidency.

5 As far as the question as to whether their presence, the presence

6 of the Croatian army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was welcome is concerned, well,

7 this has to do with international relations, relations between two states.

8 Any assistance offered to the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina in order to

9 preserve this state would have been welcome.

10 Q. Wasn't the Croatian army perceived as fighting against the

11 aggressor, which was the Serbs at the time?

12 A. Well, one might have considered that in a certain sense the

13 Croatian army, as of April 1992, was involved in activities in the

14 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. If we remember the fact that various

15 military formations were established, for example, the Croatian Armed

16 Forces which were active in Herceg -- Herzegovina in particular, and to an

17 extent in Bosnia as well, above all in Zenica, these were, after all,

18 military forces from Bosnia and Herzegovina. But the question as to what

19 the meaning of the presence of the Croatian army in the territory of

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina meant is a different question because these were armies

21 that came from two states that had obtained international recognition.

22 Q. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at one point in time somewhere in the

23 spring of 1992, there was an attempt by both armies to put up one solid

24 front. Am I correct?

25 A. Yes. This is what they attempted to do. I think that a number of

Page 10996

1 agreements were first signed at the political level between

2 President Tudjman and President Izetbegovic, that is between Bosnia and

3 Croatia. Agreements were signed on a number of occasions and these

4 agreements stated that the Republic of Croatia would support the efforts

5 made by Bosnia and Herzegovina to resist the aggression committed against

6 it. They also stated that Croatia would continue to provide Bosnia and

7 Herzegovina with aid.

8 Such agreements were signed on a number of occasions. On the 16th

9 of June, 1992, for the first time, and then on the 21st of July, 1992, and

10 finally on the 23rd of September, 1992, in New York.

11 As far as this question is concerned, as far as the involvement of

12 the Croatian army in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina is concerned,

13 this is an issue that should have been agreed on at the level of state.

14 Q. So, then, would I be correct if I conclude that the relationship,

15 so to speak, for want of a better word, did not materialise because the

16 Muslim leaders would respect all the agreements that you have spoken about

17 here today? The Muslim leaders are the ones who refused to join, who

18 refused to sign?

19 A. Well, I think that would be a one-sided interpretation of such an

20 agreement between states. There was an agreement on cooperation, but as

21 for signing a military agreement between two independent states is

22 concerned, this is a different matter.

23 Q. Okay. Well, maybe we could sort of get it clarified. Page 35 of

24 your report, and that's English version, at the bottom of the page it

25 says: "Croatian influence on the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina was

Page 10997

1 increasingly apparent."

2 I am not sure. Maybe my friends can help you with respect to

3 the -- it's page 35, the last paragraph. That's the English version.

4 It's under "The military and political situation in Bosnia and

5 Herzegovina," and it's --

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In order to assist you, it's on

7 page 44 of the Bosnian version, and it's in paragraph 2. "Croatian

8 influence on the conflict in Bosnia and Herzegovina was increasingly

9 apparent."

10 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:

11 Q. Have you seen it? "Croatian influence on the conflict in Bosnia

12 and Herzegovina was increasingly apparent --"

13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

14 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Sorry.

15 Q. And you went on to explain. But could you explain for us or

16 clarify what you mean by this, and on what basis was this statement made?

17 A. This part of the report deals with the events in June and July

18 1992. When I spoke about this awhile ago, when I spoke about the joint

19 signing of agreements on cooperation between President Izetbegovic and

20 President Tudjman, I said that among other items in the agreement, there

21 was an item concerning all forms of assistance. However, in -- earlier on

22 in the report, I raised an issue that concerned the involvement of the

23 Croatian army, the Croatian army which came to Bosnia and Herzegovina

24 without the legal Bosnian and Herzegovinian organs of power being aware of

25 this fact.

Page 10998

1 Q. I'm going to have to seek some guidance from my friend. It's page

2 33 of the English version, and it's footnote 76.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] It's page 41 in the Bosnian

4 version.

5 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN:

6 Q. Have you -- have you found it? Have you found it? Have you found

7 it?

8 Could you explain? This is --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... and first could you explain

11 the -- the source or the basis on which this -- this note was written?

12 A. As far as footnote 76 is concerned, it relates to an explanation

13 on organisation of military units that were described as Muslim ones. I

14 mentioned the fact that this was not new. I provided a number of examples

15 since I'd been particularly involved in military history and especially

16 Austro-Hungarian military history.

17 In such an organisation when including Muslim inhabitants in the

18 army of Austria and Hungary, which was a Christian one, in such

19 organisations the traditions and beliefs of the Muslim people were

20 respected. As stated here, they were given religious freedom and their

21 religious rights and customs were fully respected. This was not just with

22 respect to the Austro-Hungarian period. This is also something that

23 existed in the state of Yugoslavia after 1918 and between the two wars,

24 these customs and the religious rights of Muslims and the religious needs

25 of Muslims were fully respected, and this was provided for in the laws.

Page 10999

1 In the course of the Second World War, this tradition was also

2 respected, and on a number of occasions a number of partisan units were

3 established which were called Muslim partisan units. Even brigades and

4 battalions were organised. For example, the 16th Muslim Brigade, which

5 was one of the largest units. And there was an entire series of partisan

6 units which were described as Muslim ones.

7 In the -- in socialist Yugoslavia, this tradition continued. It

8 continued right up until the break-up of Yugoslavia. And reference is

9 made to all these facts in footnote number 76.

10 I can say that on the whole this is the result of research and the

11 result of an analysis of numerous documents that I also made use of when

12 preparing my doctoral thesis.

13 Q. And if I understood you clearly, are you saying that this

14 7th Muslim Brigade was merely an attempt to accommodate the religious

15 needs of the Muslims, or are you saying that that brigade was formulated

16 based on the -- on the needs of Muslims, to accommodate the religious

17 needs of Muslims or -- was that what the 7th Muslim Brigade was all about?

18 A. I've only been referring to the principles on which the basis of

19 which units were formed. These principles involved respect for religious

20 freedom. It's above all necessary to be aware of the fact that only after

21 1945 these traditions were no longer respected. One no longer took into

22 consideration the specific nature of people or the religions of people in

23 the JNA. No attention was paid to the food provided to different people,

24 people of different religions, because above all, this army was an atheist

25 army, and this religious freedom was curtailed. And for 45 years all

Page 11000

1 national characteristics were suppressed. So I think that this could be a

2 reaction to units being established on these principles. This was a long

3 term process.

4 Q. So then would I be correct in assuming or saying that the

5 7th Muslim Brigade accommodated the Muslim race, so that your foreigners

6 who might have been Muslims, they automatically would have gone to the

7 7th Muslim Brigade? Am I correct?

8 A. I think that would be a simplistic interpretation.

9 Q. But according to your theory and according to footnote 76, they

10 tried to accommodate the religious practices, in this instance the Muslim

11 practice, and so that was inculcated into the 7th Muslim Brigade.

12 So based on your theory, am I right in concluding that members of

13 the Muslim faith who wanted to join the army, so to speak, the BiH army,

14 the Muslims would naturally be channeled to the 7th Muslim Brigade? Based

15 on their religious practices, of course.

16 A. Well, I wouldn't say so. Since they insisted, if religion played

17 a role, if it played a significant role, it doesn't necessarily mean that

18 they would have to join that brigade alone.

19 Q. Well, it doesn't necessarily mean that they would have to join

20 that brigade alone, but it necessarily means that that might be the most

21 appropriate brigade for them to join based on their religion?

22 A. Well, I think that it wasn't the only unit in which religious

23 traditions, religious practice was respected. I don't think only the

24 7th Muslim Brigade did this. This was a tradition widespread among the

25 Muslim population. They would celebrate religious festivities, perform

Page 11001

1 religious rites, their religious duties. I don't think this could be

2 interpreted in a simple manner. There are certain prejudices that are

3 also present. So those were religious customs like go to the church to

4 play. But I think there are a lot of prejudices in relation to this act.

5 Q. Let's move on. Could you explain for the Trial Chamber exactly

6 what was the Celebici agreement?

7 A. The Celebici agreement on the 16th of June, 1993, is only briefly

8 referred to in the report. This is an agreement that the media, the

9 international media relayed. This states that there was an agreement

10 reached between the Serbs and Croats on humanitarian relocation of the

11 population. You can see that I quoted from the French newspaper

12 Le Figaro, and the newspaper states that this agreement on cleansing the

13 population was reached.

14 Q. If I were to say to you that based on what you had earlier said

15 about this area not being your field of strict academic interests, coupled

16 with the fact that you have indicated in the report on June 16, 1993,

17 almost all the media cited this Celebici agreement, yet you have only

18 quoted one, the French newspaper. If I were to say to you that this

19 statement here in the report, like many other statements, are not -- is

20 not entirely accurate, would you agree with me?

21 A. As far as media reports are concerned, most of the reports paid a

22 lot of attention to the Celebici agreement, the agreement on the

23 humanitarian relocation of the population.

24 To gain a clear idea of this, there is another report that the

25 president of Croatia, Tudjman, provided in 1995. He is also quoted here.

Page 11002

1 And this report mentions the idea of the humanitarian relocation of the

2 population. And as Tudjman states in his interview, the first agreements

3 on this matter were reached within the framework of the Geneva conference.

4 The first agreements on the humanitarian relocation of the population were

5 reached. And he explained how this exchange of the population should be

6 implemented. And he also mentioned the reasons for which this was to be

7 done.

8 Q. Anto Valenta, as referred to in the report just a couple lines

9 below the Celebici agreement, because it deals with him, and you refer to

10 him as the HB -- HZ HB vice-president. Now, would you agree with me if I

11 say that your facts are wrong and if I tell you from research Anto Valenta

12 was merely an HVO vice-president and that and Kordic was the HZ HB

13 vice-president? Would you agree with me?

14 A. The report says the vice-president, the deputy president. The

15 meaning is the same. That was the term used. It's the terms that the

16 Croats used, Dopredsjednik instead of Potpredsjednik. Both terms mean

17 vice-president.

18 Q. Is -- well, correct me if I'm wrong, but maybe my research was

19 wrong, too, but isn't the HVO vice-president different from the HZ HB

20 vice-president? Isn't it two different roles?

21 A. I think on the 10th of May when this letter was sent to

22 Anto Valenta, I think he was the vice-president of the HZ HB, not the

23 vice-president of the HVO.

24 Q. And you say, "I think," which gives the impression that you're not

25 sure.

Page 11003

1 A. If this is what I wrote, well, perhaps I could have made a

2 mistake, but I can immediately check this in the relevant documents.

3 Q. Can I -- can I suggest to you, then, that there may have been

4 quite a few more errors like this one in this report during the period

5 1990 to 1995, especially, especially since it is not your - sorry -

6 especially since it's not your field of academic interest? Is there a

7 possibility that there is room for more errors in the report?

8 Did you hear the question?

9 A. Yes. I don't think that there are errors. Maybe there is a typo.

10 But if you are implying that my report is not professional, I can assure

11 you that I have published a number of papers on the years 1992 and 1993.

12 My research took quite a long time while I was staying in the Republic of

13 Germany, and I consider myself fully competent to provide an opinion on

14 this period in the history of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I have all the

15 necessary documents, and if there is an error such as you imply there is,

16 I don't think you're right. I believe that there are no errors in my

17 report.

18 Q. Contrary to the fact, and my apologies, it was not meant to mean

19 that the report was not a professional one. My -- my statement and which

20 I ask you to agree with or not to agree with was the fact that you

21 yourself indicated to the Trial Chamber that this area is not your area.

22 This is not your field. And I'm saying in light of that, if it is

23 possible that there could be inaccuracies in the report, if there is a

24 possibility.

25 A. First and foremost, when I was talking about this report, I based

Page 11004

1 my words on the period that I'm involved in, and that is the period of

2 Austro-Hungarian, and I have a Ph.D in that period. However, my field of

3 expertise is the politics of the 20th century, and the object of my

4 research is the period after the break-up of Yugoslavia and events which

5 took place in Bosnia-Herzegovina between the period 1992 and 1995.

6 Since I'm very much involved in the topic of world history, this

7 is my strict field of expertise, the events which have taken place after

8 the year of 1918 until the present, and I believe that I'm fully competent

9 to provide an expert opinion on this period of history.

10 Q. Thank you, Doctor.

11 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, this concludes the

12 cross-examination.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is twenty-five to six. We

14 are going to make another break, and we shall resume at 6.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 5.35 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 6.01 p.m.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mrs. Benjamin, do you have any

18 other questions at this point in time?

19 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: No, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence teams. After the

21 cross-examination by the Prosecution, do you have any re-examination for

22 this witness?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We do

24 not have any additional questions for this witness.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team?

Page 11005

1 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we don't have any

2 questions.

3 Questioned by the Court:

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I have a few questions to

5 put to you which arise from a question that the Prosecution has put to you

6 regarding the problems with religion. You have indicated in your expert

7 report, on page -- you have made a reference in footnote 76 to the

8 question of the Muslim unity, and you have indicated in that footnote that

9 in 1941, the Muslims joined the Partisans and -- and that there were units

10 which were created at the time, and you quoted 7th Muslim Brigade, which

11 was established in Tuzla. And you also indicate in that footnote that the

12 Muslims joined such units, such Partisan units because that had to do with

13 their future in Yugoslavia. In the Socialist Federative State of

14 Yugoslavia, after the year 1945 in the Yugoslav army, were there in the

15 army any religious feelings or did the socialist ideology completely curb

16 the religious feelings, and it was no longer a topical issue, the -- you

17 as an expert witness, what can you tell us about that issue?

18 A. The traditions that existed before that time, after the

19 establishment of the Yugoslav state in 1945, was suppressed. After that

20 time, it was the ideology that dominated. All the religious symbols were

21 suppressed because the state was an atheist state. Any form of religious

22 symbols in the Yugoslav People's Army were banned.

23 As for the specific features that existed before, they were simply

24 erased. These specific characteristics were respected before that time

25 for a long period of time. After the year 1945, this was no longer the

Page 11006

1 case.

2 Since I myself served in this army, I can tell you that one of the

3 problems was diet. It was a well-known fact that people observing Muslim

4 religion do not eat pork. However, in the Yugoslav People's Army, they

5 were forced to eat pork. There was no choice for them. They could either

6 eat or go hungry.

7 So it was the ideology that came first, and religion was

8 completely separated from both the state and its army.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I have understood you

10 correctly, the ideology in the former Yugoslavia was such that any

11 distinctive religious signs were not to be evident in -- in the army. You

12 yourself said that you served in the JNA. You provided a number of

13 examples.

14 Following your analysis, would one say that when Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina became a state, religious feelings rapidly reappeared and were

16 given much importance given the decades that had passed during which it

17 was impossible to establish religious feelings. Do you see a causal

18 relation between the fact that the BH army had units of that kind at the

19 time?

20 Last week we had a witness who was involved in moral and religious

21 affairs. Do you see a causal relationship in these matters?

22 A. Your Honours, I believe that there is a causal relationship

23 between the suppression of something. In this case this was tradition,

24 especially when it came to religious symbols. For a long period of time,

25 lasting for almost a half a century, there was a significant influence

Page 11007

1 that appeared after the year 1992. Again there was a comeback to the

2 principles and origins of religion.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And now onto another subject.

4 It has been indicated to us that the movement was established based on

5 ethnic principles. I'm talking about the Serbian republic in Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina. The question of Croats again has been pointed out to us, and

7 in Bosnia and Herzegovina as a state which consisted of Muslims.

8 Between the ideology that was a socialist ideology and the

9 national feeling, was there a disparity between nationalist feeling

10 because of the presence of an ideology, or a state, as you have indicated,

11 which was atheist but at the same time of a state where the nationalist

12 feelings had not been curbed? What can you tell us about that?

13 A. As far as the nationalist ideologies in the territory of Bosnia

14 and Herzegovina are concerned, one would have to go back into the second

15 half of the 19th century and speak about the significance of the process

16 of the growth and development of nations in the territory of the Balkans

17 and the east -- south-eastern Europe. The main ideas which were present

18 at the time in Europe, especially Herder's Europe, one people, one state,

19 were being built into all the national programs of the Balkan states.

20 This was particularly typical of the second half of the 19th century. The

21 nationalist movements that existed in the south-eastern Europe, especially

22 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, those were the nationalist movements of the

23 neighbouring states of Serbia and Croatia. These nationalist movements

24 moved to the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina during the 60s and the

25 70s of the 19th century, and they culminated in the second half of the

Page 11008

1 19th century, and particularly towards the end of the 19th century.

2 During the Austro-Hungarian administration, these state -- states saw

3 liberalisation of attitude towards religion, towards national issues, the

4 establishment of schools, national symbols, and from the 90s onwards, the

5 fight for national and religious autonomy started in Bosnia and

6 Herzegovina. This fight ended before the 1910, at the moment when the

7 Austro-Hungarian administration, to a certain extent, provided for the

8 freedom of nationalist and religious feelings and the establishment of

9 these movements in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10 Later on, when we're talking about the relationships between

11 ethnic groups, between the two wars one could notice two concepts. There

12 was a nationalist Serbian movement and a nationalist Croatian movement.

13 Between the two of them, there were Bosnian-Herzegovinian Muslims who

14 still had their nationalist ideology within their religion.

15 After the Second World War, one could say that to a certain extent

16 in 1949, after the abolishment of all ethnic organisations, alliances, and

17 particularly those that were of a religion -- religious nature, the

18 ideology of the ruling system prevailed so that nationalist symbols became

19 suppressed.

20 The Yugoslav idea prevailed at the time, and this would be the

21 case all the way up to the death of Josip Broz Tito. In a certain way,

22 ethnic symbols were suppressed, and after the death of Josip Broz Tito,

23 the general crisis that prevailed in the crisis will lead to the

24 conditions being put in place for the surge of nationalistic feelings.

25 This started, as I've already explained, not in the peripheral

Page 11009

1 parts of Yugoslavia but, rather, in its core, in Serbia. The process that

2 started in 1986 culminated in 1992 with the developments that took place

3 at that time.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for that information.

5 I'll move on to another subject now. Could you have a look at map number

6 15 and at map number 16 too. Map 15 is -- represents the Vance-Owen Plan,

7 and map number 16 represents the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan. Will you have a

8 look at the map.

9 If you compare the two maps, one can see that Travnik and Bugojno,

10 which in the Stoltenberg Plan are attached to Bosnia-Herzegovina, you can

11 see that these places in the Owen plan, these places Travnik and Bugojno

12 were attached to the Croatian entity. So one notes that when comparing

13 these two plans that in the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan the Bugojno and Travnik

14 zone is placed within the zone, the area of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Muslim

15 area of Bosnia-Herzegovina. How do we explain the fact that this was done

16 given that the document, the census from 1991 which you provided us with,

17 which is a list of municipalities and the population, we can see in this

18 list that in Bugojno the Bosniak population was 1961 -- the Croats were

19 1.600, the Serbs 8.000, and the others 2.004. We notice that Bugojno

20 didn't have a Muslim majority. And similarly in Travnik, the situation is

21 the same. Since there were 31.813 Bosniak -- Bosniaks, 26.000 Croats, and

22 7.000 Serbs. So these areas weren't Muslim -- inhabited by Muslim

23 majority. So how do you explain the fact that the situation has changed

24 in the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan? These places are then placed within a

25 Muslim zone. Could you explain this?

Page 11010

1 A. As you can see in the Vance-Owen Plan, Travnik and Bugojno were

2 integrated in the Croatian provinces as had been planned by the

3 Vance-Owen Plan. The second plan, which is the topic of our discussion

4 here today, is the so-called Owen-Stoltenberg Plan, which followed some

5 eight and a half months after the first maps of the Vance-Owen Plan were

6 presented.

7 During that period, between January and October, there some

8 military populations took place, and the explanation could be that the

9 changes were impacted by the fact that, for example, in the month of

10 August when the Stoltenberg plan was adopted, these towns, Bugojno and

11 Travnik, were under the control of the units of the BiH army.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So as a witness

13 expert, you say that in fact this plan took into consideration the

14 presence of BH forces in this area. This is what would explain the plan.

15 By following this reasoning, if they had got as far as Jajce or

16 Kupres, in such case perhaps the plan would have in some way confirmed the

17 military action. Is that your interpretation? The plan, the

18 Stoltenberg-Owen Plan, in fact, confirmed the situation such as it was in

19 military terms.

20 I have another question to provide you with, to ask you. In the

21 binder that Defence counsel provided you with, document 520, this is a

22 statement made by Colonel Kordic, and Colonel Kordic says the following

23 when taking the oath: "The Croatian territory of Zenica is Croatian."

24 How can he say such a thing given that when we have a look at the 1991

25 census we can see that in Zenica there are 80.000 -- over 80.000 Bosniaks

Page 11011

1 and there are only 22.000 Croats? How can one affirm that Zenica is

2 Croat, since according to the census the situation is the contrary? How

3 could you explain such a statement?

4 A. Your Honours, the explanation would be as follows: Obviously

5 since the population in Zenica -- most of the population in Zenica was of

6 Muslim ethnic group and Croats were a minority, how can one account for

7 such words? One would have to go a bit back in the history.

8 During the month of March 1992, within the Croatian Community of

9 Herceg-Bosna, an issue was raised. The issue was as to what would happen

10 with the territories where Muslims had a majority and how should Croats

11 organise themselves in those areas?

12 I believe this is a document from the 17th of March, and it was

13 concluded that in the territory of Zenica there should be a part where

14 Croats constituted a majority, and this part should be separated from the

15 rest of Zenica. The HVO or HVO units were to be established in the

16 territory of Zenica as a special army unit.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you interpret this statement

18 as the HVO desire to separate the Zenica area, to divide it into two parts

19 depending on the presence of Muslim inhabitants or Croatian inhabitants.

20 That's how you interpret this statement.

21 The last subject I want to address, on page 39 of your report, you

22 mention the Jeddah Islamic conference. Ministers of foreign affairs from

23 Arab countries were concerned and you said that Lord Owen attended this

24 conference, and you said that on that occasion, the subject of lifting the

25 embargo on weapons was raised, and the co-presidents of the conference,

Page 11012

1 Lord Owen and Mr. Vance, were against lifting the embargo but I quote, you

2 said, "The participants in the conference did not exclude the possibility

3 of having recourse to military force pursuant to Article 42 of the UN

4 Charter."

5 According to the research that you carried out, according to your

6 studies, did you gain the impression that in spite of Lord Owen's and

7 Mr. Vance's participation they might have sidestepped the embargo on arms

8 and may have provided weapons to troops in Bosnia-Herzegovina. What were

9 the conclusions that you reached when carrying out your research?

10 A. Your Honours, looking at the documents that I used in preparing my

11 report, I can say that I've used documents from a magazine or a journal

12 which is considered to be one of the most significant European magazines

13 covering international politics.

14 The document reflects the facts that are contained in my report,

15 and the question itself whether the Arabic countries might have been

16 prompted to lift the embargo of their own accord and deliver arms to

17 Bosnia and Herzegovina, one would have to have in mind the issue of the

18 implementation of such a decision even if it had been made. All the

19 routes to Bosnia were blocked, and it would have been very difficult to

20 implement such a decision. And even if such a decision had been made, it

21 would have been pointless if at the same time routes had not been provided

22 for the delivery of arms. Bearing in mind the conditions that prevailed

23 in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the total encirclement of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

24 this was completely out of the question and impossible to do.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Does the Prosecution

Page 11013

1 or the Defence have any questions that arise from the Chamber's questions?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have only two

3 questions.

4 Further examination by Ms. Residovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Sehic, the president of the Trial Chamber

6 showed you the Vance-Owen map and the Stoltenberg map. With regard to

7 these maps, I would like to ask you the following: The ethnic principle

8 which appeared in all the peace plans as the basis for the plan, to what

9 extent did it correspond to the essence of Bosnia and Herzegovina and to

10 what extent did it in fact provoke nationalist desires to break up

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

12 A. We would need to go back a little bit and start from the beginning

13 of 1990 to see which principles should have been used to establish these

14 negotiations and to seek principles for the founding of Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina. The international community had several proposals. The

16 decision of the commission of the 24th of December, whose president was

17 the chairman of the commission court, Mr. Robert Badinter, had those

18 principles been adopted, war might not have broken out.

19 As far as the ethnic principles are concerned, throughout the

20 entire period at all of these international negotiations, we had the first

21 peace plan. That was the Cutileiro plan. Then two meetings which

22 followed in Lisbon. That agreement lost its significance once the war

23 broke out. But all the plans were important, beginning from the

24 Vance-Owen Plan, then the Stoltenberg Plan, and all of them were based on

25 this ethnic principle.

Page 11014

1 As far as the ethnic principle is concerned, the government of

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina constantly refused divisions and the reaching of an

3 agreement should the principles in order to reach a peace agreement be

4 based solely on ethnic principles. As early as June 1992, the government

5 of Bosnia-Herzegovina adopted a platform which stayed in force throughout

6 the whole war, and they stood by all of those principles mentioned in the

7 platform to ensure all the people in Bosnia-Herzegovina and national

8 minorities enjoyed equal rights.

9 All of these peace treaties and these peace plans are counter to

10 the essence of Bosnia and Herzegovina, as a matter of fact. This is an

11 attempt at divisions based on ethnic lines, although the peoples of Bosnia

12 and Herzegovina always lived intermingled. And if you see the map of

13 1991, you can see, and it was something that was always said, that the map

14 looked like a leopard skin because all the population was intermingled.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I have no

16 further questions.

17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you very

18 much. We have no questions for this witness.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Does the Prosecution

20 have any questions for the witness?

21 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: [Previous translation continues] ... two.

22 Further cross-examination by Ms. Benjamin:

23 Q. If you had the opportunity to look at other sources, example, the

24 Croatian documents exhibited by the ICTY, could you say whether your

25 conclusion that arrived at in your report could have been different?

Page 11015

1 A. I have already said which sources I used. I've already said that

2 besides using the reference materials for this historical period I also

3 used documents which were provided to me by the Defence, primarily

4 documents of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, followed by documents of

5 the Croatian Defence Council. Also, the case materials from cases that

6 have already been completed such as the Celebici, Blaskic, and Kordic

7 cases. So it's a question of whether new documents would change my

8 opinion.

9 I believe that they would not. Each document I analysed using the

10 comparative method, and I, on that basis, established its validity. I did

11 not rely on drawing conclusions based on unilateral interpretations

12 because this happens if you only use one historical source. I used

13 various literature, various documents from the Bosnian army, the Croatian

14 side, and I also used some documents from international institutions.

15 Q. Thank you, Doctor.

16 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Dr. Sehic, this concludes your

18 testimony as an expert witness. On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to

19 thank you for all the answers you provided put to you by Defence counsel,

20 the Prosecution, and the Chamber. Naturally we wish you all the best in

21 your career as a lecturer, and we wish you a good trip home.

22 I will now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll now turn to the Prosecution

Page 11016

1 to deal with the tendering into evidence the annex documents, documents

2 relating to the report and the documents in your binder. You said that

3 these documents were excerpts from other documents. What are you

4 requesting with regard to these documents?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, on page 72, line

6 19, I think there is a -- a slip of the tongue. I think you were

7 addressing the Defence. So I would like to respond to what you said.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I was referring to the

9 Defence. I was looking at you, so it could only have been you.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with regard to this

11 expert, we would first of all like to suggest that his report be admitted

12 into evidence, because I think that when answering questions put to him by

13 all of the parties, including the Chamber, he showed that this report was

14 credible. Therefore, I would like to tender it into evidence.

15 I also want to tender some maps into evidence, the maps from 1 to

16 17, since this witness confirmed that he himself made a list of these maps

17 and mentioned the sources from which these maps were obtained.

18 As far as the documents are concerned, the documents that we would

19 like to tender into evidence from the numerous documents that we have been

20 provided with by the witness, we don't want to tender into evidence any

21 documents that relate to factual events. Therefore, the Defence will not

22 be suggesting that the documents that concern the BH army be admitted into

23 evidence. We'll do this through witnesses who will be appearing in the

24 future. We will do this for HVO documents as well. We will ask that

25 witnesses confirm these documents, witnesses who have knowledge about

Page 11017

1 these events.

2 Since we only want to tender some of the expert documents into

3 evidence, books, reports, the scientific basis which is an integral part

4 of the entire opus of Dr. Sehic, I'd be grateful if we could compile a

5 list of these documents since we haven't had the time to do so yet. And

6 as usual, we would then tender these documents into evidence.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you are saying

8 that at this moment you are preparing a list of all the documents, but

9 there will be the expert report, the 17 maps, and documents that you will

10 select. But you are not prepared at the moment, so you will inform us of

11 the documents you want to tender into evidence tomorrow or the day after

12 tomorrow.

13 So it is not necessary to ask the Prosecution for their comments

14 since we do not have the list of all the documents yet. We will deal with

15 this issue tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.

16 As far as the witnesses scheduled for the future proceedings, what

17 could you inform us of?

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, could we move into

19 private session now, please?

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could we go into

21 private session, please.

22 [Private session]

23 (Redacted)

24 (Redacted)

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5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.53p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of

7 November, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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