1 Tuesday, 2 November 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
6 the case number, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic, and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we have the
10 appearances for the Prosecution, please.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning,
12 Your Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the
13 Prosecution, Matthias Neuner, Daryl Mundis, and the case manager
14 Andres Vatter.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have appearances for
17 the Defence counsel.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President; good
19 morning Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic,
20 Edina Residovic, lead counsel, and Alexis Demirdjian, my legal assistant.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence team.
23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
24 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and
25 Nermin Mulalic, our legal assistant.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to greet everyone
2 present in the courtroom, members of the Prosecution, Defence counsel, the
3 accused and everyone else present. We have a witness scheduled for today
4 as we said yesterday, but before we call the witness into the courtroom,
5 I'd like to ask the Defence whether they have managed to prepare their
6 list of documents to be tendered into evidence through the witness we
7 heard yesterday.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Defence
9 counsel has prepared its list, and as I explained yesterday, we would like
10 to tender into evidence the academic and other documents which form the
11 basis for this witness's testimony, whereas the documents about the facts
12 and the parties in the conflict will be tendered through witnesses who are
13 familiar with these documents or the events related in the documents.
14 According to the list that we provided yesterday and with
15 references of the sources used by Mr. Sehic, we suggest that annex A the
16 following documents be admitted into evidence. In our list of documents
17 they have the following numbers, 1601, 0350, 0351, 0362, 0354, 0356, 0353.
18 From Annex C, we would like to tender into evidence documents 1598, 1590,
19 and 0378.
20 Mr. President, since we have copies for everyone, could the usher
21 distribute copies of the list of documents so that everyone can follow
22 more easily.
23 From Annex C, we would like to tender into evidence the following
24 documents: 0385 and 0510. From Annex E, we would like to tender into
25 evidence one document. The number in our list of this document is 1599.
1 From Annex G, we would like to tender two documents into evidence, and
2 they have the numbers 1398 and 1004 in our list of documents. We would
3 also suggest that documents 1623, 1624, 1625, 1626, and 1627 be admitted
4 into evidence. These are documents from the Zenica Red Cross. And in
5 part of his report, Dr. Sehic used these documents. He based his analysis
6 on these documents in the part that refers to ethnic cleansing.
7 We also suggest that the following documents be admitted into
8 evidence: Documents from the file of Dr. Sehic, 0353, 0357, 0358, 0359,
9 0363, 1589. We also suggest that the expert report of Dr. Sehic be
10 admitted into evidence as well as the set of maps from 1 to 17, maps that
11 were made by this witness.
12 Thank you.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for this list of
14 documents. I would like to ask the Prosecution whether they have any
15 comments to make.
16 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President, the Prosecution has no objections
17 nor comments to make. Thank you.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Judges will
19 discuss the matter, and we will inform you either today or on Thursday of
20 our decision. In the meantime, the registrar will have sufficient time to
21 prepare definitive exhibit numbers.
22 We'll now call the witness into the courtroom.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. Could you tell
25 me whether you are receiving the interpretation of what I'm saying. If
1 so, please say yes.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you, and I
3 understand you.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You've been called
5 here as a witness for the Defence to testify about the events that took
6 place in 1993. Before I ask you to read out the solemn declaration, I
7 would like you to tell me your first and last names, your date of birth,
8 and your place of birth.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Ribo Sulejman. I was
10 born on the 19th of February, 1953, in Skomorje, Travnik municipality.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Are you currently
12 employed? What is your current professional status?
13 A. I work in the ministry of education, science, culture and sport in
14 the Central Bosnia canton.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what position do you hold
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work as a professional official,
18 professional advisor for educational matters.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992, 1993, did you hold a
20 position of any kind and, if so, could you tell me what sort of position.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. At the time, I didn't have a
22 position of any kind.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified
24 before an international or national court about the events that took place
25 in your country in 1992 and 1993 or is this the first time?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is my first time as a
2 witness before such a court.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please read out the
4 solemn declaration, please.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down.
8 WITNESS: SULEJMAN RIBO
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to the
11 Defence who will commence your examination-in-chief, I would like to
12 provide you with some information about the procedure that we will follow
13 here, because as you have said, this is the first time you have appeared
14 as a witness before a court.
15 You have just taken the solemn declaration. You have said you
16 will speak the truth and nothing but the truth. This means that you will
17 not give false testimony, because false testimony is an offence which is
18 punishable, and a prison sentence could be given for false testimony.
19 When responding to questions, in certain cases a witness might
20 provide the Judges with information that could be used in the subsequent
21 Prosecution against that witness, but you should be aware of the fact that
22 in such exceptional cases, you have a form of immunity. So you can feel
23 completely free to answer questions, because you risk nothing unless you
24 give false testimony.
25 You will first have to answer the questions put to you by Defence
1 counsel for one of the accused, and then perhaps you will have to answer
2 put to you by the Defence team for the other accused.
3 Try to provide precise answers, because we have no written
4 statement. The procedure we follow here is an oral procedure. It's
5 important for the Judges to understand what you say, so try to form your
6 answers in the clearest possible way. If you don't understand a question,
7 ask the person putting it to you to rephrase it to make sure that you do
8 understand the question.
9 Once Defence counsel has concluded its examination-in-chief, you
10 will have to answer the questions put to you by the Prosecution. The
11 Prosecution is to your right. This is what we call the cross-examination,
12 the purpose of which is to verify the credibility of your statements and
13 also to clarify some of the answers you provided in the course of the
15 After this procedural stage, Defence counsel may re-examine you.
16 The three Judges before you may also ask you questions at any point in
17 time. As a rule, the Judges ask questions either to clarify the answers
18 that a witness provided or to fill in any gaps. According to the rules
19 followed when the Judges asked questions -- after the Judges have asked
20 questions, the other parties, Prosecution and Defence, may ask you
21 additional questions.
22 Roughly speaking, this is how we will be proceeding here today.
23 The hearing will be adjourned at 1.45 at the latest. For technical
24 reasons, there will be two breaks. Each break will last half an hour, and
25 will give the opportunity to have a rest and will give the technicians the
1 possibility of dealing with technical matters.
2 If you encounter any difficulties, please inform us of the fact.
3 Defence counsel may now take the floor.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Examined by Ms. Residovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ribo.
7 A. Good morning.
8 Q. You have heard what the president of the Trial Chamber said, but I
9 would like to ask you to pay attention to the following: We speak the
10 same language, and you might immediately reply to my answers, but since
11 what we are saying is being interpreted, in order to make sure that the
12 Chamber and my colleagues in the courtroom can follow what is being said,
13 I would be grateful if you could wait after I've asked you my question so
14 that it can be interpreted, and only then answer the question. Have you
15 understood me?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Tell me, what is your nationality, and what citizenship do you
19 A. I'm a Bosniak, and I'm a citizen of the state of Bosnia and
21 Q. Where do you live now?
22 A. I live in Travnik now.
23 Q. Where were you on the 6th of April, 1992, when the war in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina broke out?
25 A. On the 6th of April, 1992, which is when the war in
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina officially began, I was in the Republic of Croatia. I
2 have two brothers near the town of Nasice in Croatia. They have lived
3 there since about 1981 or 1982, and at the time I was staying with them.
4 Q. Mr. Ribo, did you ever return to Bosnia and Herzegovina and, if
5 so, where did you return to?
6 A. I returned to Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 25th of May, 1992. I
7 returned to my place of birth, and naturally, I returned to my own
8 municipality, to the municipality of Travnik.
9 Q. Please tell me a little about your educational background. What
10 is your profession, and where were you educated?
11 A. I'm a professor of geography. I finished the mathematics at the
12 university in Sarajevo in 1977. After graduation, I mostly worked in
13 schools, mostly in the Mehurici primary school where I worked for about 11
15 Q. Mr. Ribo, did you serve in the army before the war and, if so,
16 which army did you serve in?
17 A. Well, I did my military service in the JNA from 1978 to 1979.
18 Q. Did you obtain a rank in the JNA?
19 A. No, I didn't. I was an ordinary private.
20 Q. Which service, which branch of the army were you in?
21 A. I was in the artillery, howitzer artillery.
22 Q. When you left the JNA, were you given a wartime assignment, and if
23 so, where?
24 A. After leaving the JNA, I was given a wartime assignment in the
25 local commune, in the Territorial Defence of the local commune.
1 Q. We said that you returned from the Republic of Croatia towards the
2 end of May. Did you at any point in time join any armed formations, and
3 if so, which ones?
4 A. When I returned from Croatia, I reported to the Travnik
5 Territorial Defence Staff. I told them that I had been in the artillery.
6 It was agreed that I and a group of men from the area of my place of birth
7 should form a platoon, an artillery platoon, because there was a
8 105-millimetre howitzer in that area.
9 Q. Mr. Ribo, when you arrived in Travnik in the Territorial Defence
10 staff, that is to say when you arrived in the area you lived in, were you
11 able to observe what sort of situation the Territorial Defence was
12 in -- or, rather, were you able to see how it had been organised or how it
13 was equipped for the combat activities that about already underway?
14 A. My impression was that the Territorial Defence in the Travnik area
15 was organised on the whole in local communes. These were
16 Territorial Defence staffs of the local communes. One was also able to
17 observe that most of the men were Bosniaks, because one could already see
18 that the Croatian population had already joined the HVO. So these were
19 some of the impressions I gained when I arrived there.
20 Q. Did the members of the Territorial Defence have any weapons, and
21 if so, what kind of weapons did they have?
22 A. The impression they gave was that they had very few weapons, and
23 especially in the area where I lived, people had their own weapons, for
24 example, hunting weapons. And there were some automatic weapons, too, but
25 very few. As far as other equipment is concerned, I think there was
1 almost no equipment on the whole. As far as I could observe, people who
2 were going to positions used their own weapons.
3 Q. You said that you were assigned a task in the Municipal Staff, and
4 you were to form a platoon to man the howitzer. Were you able to form a
5 crew capable of using that howitzer?
6 A. Towards the end of May, we received an order from the Territorial
7 Defence Municipal Staff according to which we were to place the weapon at
8 a position called Kaurske Ravni. We were first to find at least eight to
9 ten men who had been in artillery units in the former JNA. This was
10 necessary for us to be able to use the howitzer.
11 We had seven or eight such men, so at the very beginning, we were
12 able to use that weapon, but since the same men cannot be permanently
13 present at the position, we started training another crew. And this is
14 what we did in the first few months.
15 Q. Mr. Ribo, you just said that you were ordered to place the
16 howitzer at Kaurske Ravni. Could you tell us where Kaurske Ravni is
17 located, and which positions was your weapon directed at so to speak?
18 A. Well, Kaurske Ravni is on the north-eastern side of the Vlasic --
19 on Mt. Vlasic's slopes. It's about an hour or an hour and a half from
20 Mehurici if you go on foot. Our task was to engage on that axis in the
21 direction of the Serbian forces, that is to say the peripheral areas of
22 Travnik municipality, Kotor Varos and Teslic.
23 Q. Mr. Ribo, at any point in time towards the end of 1992, were there
24 any changes in the in the organisation of the Territorial Defence or in
25 the organisation of the BH army?
1 A. Towards the end of 1992, the first brigades were established in
2 our area. The 312th Motorised Brigade was established. Its base was in
3 Travnik. Also the 306th Brigade was established. Its base was in the
4 Bila region.
5 Q. Did you become a member of any of the brigades, and what position
6 did you hold at the time?
7 A. Our howitzer was given to the 312th Motorised Brigade, although we
8 were in a certain way in a different area. The howitzer was necessary to
9 support the units on that axis in the Travnik municipality.
10 We got on the strength of the 312th Motorised Brigade. Otherwise,
11 we were part of the unit that was initially called a Mixed Artillery
12 Division, although according to the number of pieces, men, and logistics,
13 it could not have been a division. It was more of a platoon that we
14 served in with our howitzer.
15 Q. Mr. Ribo, you've told us that at the beginning there was seven of
16 us -- of you and that after that you started training a certain number of
17 men and that you managed to train these people. Tell me, who was
18 responsible for the training of these people who were supposed to be using
19 the howitzer together with you?
20 A. The training was organised by our people who had served in the
21 JNA, in the artillery of the JNA, and who attended a number of military
22 manoeuvres in the 80s and the 90s, and it is in this way that we were able
23 to train men and replenish our platoon. And in the space of some two
24 months or so, we had two completely trained crews.
25 Q. Mr. Ribo, when you were not on the position on Mt. Vlasic, where
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 were you?
2 A. I mostly stayed at home. My house is two kilometres away from
3 Mehurici, and this is where I mostly stayed. From time to time I would go
4 to Travnik, of course, although I must say that already at that time the
5 movement of people was in a certain way restricted. There were a lot of
6 checkpoints on the roads, so this hampered any normal movement.
7 Q. Can you please tell us what is the name of your village where you
8 resided at the time?
9 A. Luka Zagredja is the name of my village.
10 Q. Your brigade in that area or anywhere else, did it have barracks
11 where troops were billeted?
12 A. No, our brigade did not have any barracks. At the time, the
13 barracks housed the so-called 7th Krajina Brigade.
14 Q. The brigade that was mostly replenished from the Bila region, the
15 306th Brigade, did it have its barracks where the troops of the
16 306th Brigade were accommodated?
17 A. No. The 306th Brigade did not have its barracks. The troops
18 would go home once they did not have to be around the positions. So they
19 spent their free time at home.
20 Q. You said that your village is some two kilometres away from the
21 village of Mehurici. Where did you have to go from your village in order
22 to reach the positions where your howitzer was? What was your usual
24 A. There were two roads that we normally used, the two of them being
25 very close to each other. When we went on foot, we would go through
1 Zagredja, and we would climb to Kaurske Ravni. It took us about an hour
2 and a half to two hours.
3 The second road was via Mehurici, and then we would take a dirt
4 road through Orahovo and further on to the mountain, to Kaurske Ravni
5 where we were manning the positions.
6 Q. From the end of May 1992, when you arrived in the Bila valley and
7 where you stayed in 1992 and 1993, did you notice at any point in time
8 that some foreigners arrived in the Bila valley, people who were not from
9 the area of the former Yugoslavia?
10 A. Yes. Sometime at the beginning of summer, already at a certain
11 point in time we noticed some people who had arrived in Mehurici. We
12 could clearly see that those were foreigners, that those were of foreign
13 origin. They moved around on their own. They did not have many contacts
14 with the locals. And we could not obtain any information as to where they
15 had come from, who they were, why they had arrived.
16 Q. Could you assume where they came from judging by their speech or
17 their appearance?
18 A. It was not very difficult to tell for some individuals. They
19 spoke various languages, but we could recognise the Arabic. But some of
20 them also spoke English and French.
21 Q. In the autumn of 1992 and later on, did you notice their clothes,
22 how they were dressed?
23 A. At the beginning and, actually, for a somewhat longer period of
24 time, they mostly wore traditional clothes such as are worn in the Arabic
25 world. Truth be told, some started wearing uniforms after a certain
1 period of time, but very often they would have the typical clothes of the
2 Arabic world worn over the uniforms.
3 Q. Mr. Ribo, what did you call these people? Did there come a time
4 when a name started being used for these foreigners who had arrived in
6 A. At the beginning, in the summer and autumn of 1992, we would
7 simply call them Arabs, foreigners. Later on, all of a sudden, the term
8 "Mujahedin" started being used, and I heard from the people who had
9 contacts with them that they wanted and asked to be called the Mujahedin.
10 Q. Mr. Ribo, you have just told us that you teach geography, that
11 this is your vocation. Before the war, did you know anything about the
12 Mujahedin in the former Yugoslavia and the former Bosnia-Herzegovina? Was
13 anything known about this type of people?
14 A. I personally never heard or knew anything about the Mujahedin. I
15 can only say that while I was reading about the war in Afghanistan, I came
16 across this term, but it never occurred to me to dwell upon this term.
17 This term became somewhat more topical at the moment when these people
18 appeared in our village and started using this name.
19 Q. Mr. Ribo, when you go back to that period of time, what did you
20 think? Why would Travnik and Mt. Vlasic be interesting for these people?
21 A. I can't say with any degree of certainty. My assumption is that
22 Travnik was a vizir town, the seat of nobility during the Turkish times,
23 and this lasted for 150 years. Maybe this was the fact that they found
24 attractive and interesting.
25 Furthermore, I could say that Travnik, as a town, has a number of
1 mosques, which is another reason why these people may have appeared in the
2 region. At the same time, the Bila region had a majority Muslim
3 population, which may have been another reason for them to choose this
5 Q. Thank you very much. In the autumn of 1992, were you aware of the
6 place where these foreigners stayed?
7 A. Yes. On one occasion when I left the positions, I noticed
8 in -- noticed them entering the school in Mehurici and taking the
9 uppermost floor of the school. This is where they were accommodated. In
10 that village, the school was no longer used, and that's where they found
11 their accommodation.
12 The staff of the Territorial Defence, that is of the Mehurici
13 detachment, was also billeted in the school, on the ground floor and on
14 the first floor.
15 Q. Mr. Ribo, is that the same school where you used to teach for 11
17 A. Yes, it is the same school. And truth be told, I found it very
18 strange that these people were accommodated in the school. I even raised
19 this as an issue, but the times were what they were.
20 Q. How many people were there approximately, and was their number
21 constant? Did it change?
22 A. I can just share my impressions with you. It was very difficult
23 to estimate the exact number of these people at any given point in time.
24 The fact is that at the beginning, there were -- there's not so many of
25 them, but they moved around all the time, and they mostly moved in the
1 vehicles that they owned. It was really very difficult to come up with
2 any estimate or conclusion as to their approximate number.
3 Q. Mr. Ribo, as a teacher, you must have known a lot of people in the
4 area. It is not fair for me to assume that. However, bearing in mind
5 your position and your profession, did you know the population of the
6 surrounding villages?
7 A. The mere fact that I was born in the area and that I worked there
8 for a long time must tell you that I knew people from these villages
9 because I taught their children. I mostly knew these people and their
11 Q. At any point in time did you observe or were you informed or did
12 you see yourself that these foreigners were trying to recruit some of the
13 local population to their ranks?
14 A. After some month or two months of their permanent stay in
15 Mehurici, we could notice that some locals were approaching them and
16 spending time with them. There was some training going on.
17 Since I used to teach these young lads, I wanted to find out what
18 their motive was given the fact that we already had our
19 Territorial Defence. I wanted to know why they decided to approach the
20 foreigners whom they didn't know.
21 Most of them told me that the reason was that they were offered
22 uniforms, weapons. They were told that once they completed their training
23 that they would get uniforms and weapons. At the time, as I've already
24 told you, the population did not have any means to obtain either uniform
25 or weapon.
1 And you also have to be aware of the poverty of a large number of
2 families in that area. So in many of these young lads, this was another
3 motive for approaching these foreigners.
4 Truth be told, I noticed that many of these young men, after their
5 training, after having been given what they desired, returned to their
6 detachment, the Mehurici detachment. However, a certain number of young
7 lads remained with the Mujahedin.
8 Q. Mr. Ribo, could you please tell us if these foreigners remained on
9 the top floor of this school or if at some point they went to a different
11 A. Having in mind the fact that they -- by their religion they were
12 committed in a way that was not quite appropriate to our area. The way
13 they presented Islam did not fit in in every way. Also, the people from
14 the detachment who were billeted there did not practice all the religious
15 precepts. They noticed that, and it was obvious that they were bothered
16 by this, and they simply were looking for a different location so that
17 they would not be there together with the members of the TO detachment.
18 At this point, I don't know exactly what, but I know that after
19 two or three months, there was a settlement next to Mehurici which was
20 once populated by Serbs who, by that time, had already left except for one
21 or two people. So they went into that settlement and proclaimed it their
23 Q. Was it possible to go freely into that camp, and was it secured by
25 A. Well, the camp, I really don't know. I didn't have the
1 opportunity to go there, but I know that very few had that opportunity.
2 The only people who could go there were people that had gained some trust
3 there. Just normal regular people and soldiers were not able to go there.
4 Since they guarded it by day and night, the camp was quite separate. And
5 I even know that one road that existed. It was a pedestrian path. In
6 regard of that path, they told the villagers of the Poljanica village not
7 to use that path but to take a different route.
8 Q. Mr. Ribo, do you think that the presence of these foreigners
9 created certain problems amongst the local population which did not
10 respond to their call to join them?
11 A. There were certain disagreements, even some minor incidents with
12 them. First of all because people did not join them and did not practice
13 the religion in the way that they did. So they felt that we were in some
14 way Muslims of lesser worth because we were not practising our religion in
15 the way that they were doing. Especially on market days, on the day when
16 people from that region come down in larger numbers to the market day. On
17 such days, the younger people, especially women and girls, did not change
18 the way they dressed. For the most part, they behaved the way they did
19 before. But on many occasions, what would happen was that they would
20 approach these women and girls in an arrogant way, pull their hair,
21 threaten them, take out their weapons.
22 I was not present on any such occasion, but when I took some time
23 off from my position, people would say that -- would tell me that there
24 had been certain situations which were quite delicate and that could have
25 resulted in incidents. And that is also another reason why they had
1 pulled out from the school and had gone to this camp, so that they would
2 be separate.
3 Q. Mr. Ribo, I wanted to ask you another thing. In this Biljani
4 valley area, besides the units of the units of Bosnia-Herzegovina, you
5 said you were from the 312th. There was also the 306th unit there. Could
6 you please tell us whether the population from that area was mobilised
7 into some other brigades which were not based in the Biljani valley?
8 A. People were mobilised, those who were expelled from the northern
9 part of the Travnik municipality, from the area of Kravulja, with the fall
10 of the town of Jajce and the population having moved out of there, had
11 left the town to go to the settlement of Karaula. That population, out of
12 fear, also pulled out together with the inhabitants of Jajce to other
13 parts of the Travnik municipality, because it was well known that this
14 line was established in the town of Turbe.
15 So a large number of this population from the area of Karaula,
16 which comprises some 15 villages, lived part in the Biljani Dolina. So as
17 they were moving out, they found accommodation in that area or in Zenica
18 or in Vitez. So there were some. But they still belonged to their home
19 unit, to the 312th Brigade in Travnik. So there were some cases in times
20 when they were going for their positions that they would go on to Travnik,
21 and they would go further on to Travnik where their positions were.
22 Q. Do you know that members of some detachments from the Biljani
23 valley agreed to be members of some other unit and not the 306th unit?
24 A. As I said, for the most part from those bordering or outlying
25 parts of the Travnik municipality such as Karaula, all the members
1 returned to the 312th. We also had examples from Vitez. A certain number
2 of people also returned there for their service. They did not wish to
3 switch from their home unit.
4 We also have the outlying Travnik municipalities such as
5 Kotor Varos, Skender Vakuf, Jajce. They also, although they lived in the
6 Biljani region, would go to serve in these other units.
7 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell me now, besides units of the
8 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, regardless of whether we're talking about the
9 312th, 306th, or some other unit, were there other military units in the
10 Biljani valley area?
11 A. I will tell you briefly. Since the Biljani valley is very
12 specific in its distribution of settlements which were inhabited by
13 Croats, Bosniaks, it's also true that there were few Serbs in that area.
14 It was clear since the members of the Croat ethnicity for the most part
15 did not want to serve in the Territorial Defence detachments, in that
16 area, thus in places where the Croats had a majority, the HVO was formed.
17 In that area, there was a pronounced presence of the HVO.
18 Q. In 1993, in the spring of 1993, until June, which combat
19 operations -- which combat formations were controlling the main roads
20 towards Travnik and Zenica in the Biljani region?
21 A. In view of the position, I spoke a little bit earlier about how
22 those settlements were distributed. It looked like a chequerboard or we
23 could use some other example. But from the Biljani Dolina, from Travnik
24 Mehurici, or Han Bila, in order to reach Travnik you had to pass through
25 at least five, six, or seven settlements where the Croats had a majority.
1 A similar situation was in the direction of Zenica whether we're talking
2 about the only road we had to Zenica via Nako. That whole area comprises
3 seven or eight settlements which are mostly inhabited by Croats. So there
4 were already incidents of checkpoints being set up and of more difficult
5 movements. At certain points there was even a total break. So in a way,
6 as time went on, the situation constantly worsened, and at certain points
7 it was impossible to leave the Biljani area to go to Travnik or to the
8 other side, to Zenica.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would now like to
10 ask the usher to show the witness a document. This is the only document
11 that I would like to present to the witness today.
12 Q. Mr. Ribo, could you please tell us, you can see at the top of this
13 document the name of the brigade. Is this a brigade that you belonged to
14 as a soldier?
15 A. Yes. That's the 312th Motorised Brigade to which I belonged to
17 Q. Could you please look at page 2. There is a signature there. Do
18 you know the person of this name, and do you know if this person was in
19 the brigade and what were their duties?
20 A. Ivan Nedoklan is a person that I know. I know him, living in that
21 area. I have known him since 1975 or so. He was from the beginning until
22 the end and still today a member of this brigade, and he was a member of
23 the BH army.
24 Q. Could you now please look at the content of this document, and
25 then when you read the document, could you please tell me whether you as a
1 soldier of the 312th Brigade saw things happening that are mentioned in
2 this document. Have you looked at the document?
3 A. Yes. Yes, I have. This document, according to what I know, more
4 or less reflects the situation as it was in that period, in January 1993,
5 in this area. I would just like to note that the situation with the HVO
6 forces, in particular the cooperation, worsened from the first clash in
7 the region of Novi Travnik, and then this situation moved on to or
8 included Travnik or spread to Travnik. So I think there is no need to go
9 paragraph by paragraph in this document.
10 Q. No, we don't do that, but what I wanted to know was that whether
11 you as a soldier in the Bila valley could sense this worsening of
12 relations with the HVO, and you gave us the answer to that.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you please tell us where the lines of the HVO were in the
15 Bila valley?
16 A. Well, the Defence lines of the HVO were mostly in those parts of
17 settlements or the land which belonged to the Croats. Even though it was
18 deep inside the defence area in relation to the front line towards the
19 Serb forces, they dug in and had their lines. I know this very well. We
20 as an artillery unit, which by the nature of things is in the rear, they
21 were, however, in the rear of us. For example, they were a few kilometres
22 behind us as the crow flies. And all this seemed to indicate that
23 something was not quite right.
24 This is something that I noticed right away, and of course this
25 bothered us and gave rise to some doubts and insecurity because somebody
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 was digging in behind our back and setting up some kind of line of
3 Q. Thank you. I would now like to talk about your personal knowledge
4 about a specific event. Could you please tell us if you know where the
5 village of Miletici is?
6 A. I know where the village of Miletici is. It is very close to my
7 house where I live, the Luka that I mentioned before. It's about some 400
8 or 500 metres. The village of Miletici is in a sort of clearing on one
10 Q. Tell me, where were you on the 24th of April, 1993?
11 A. On the 24th of April, 1993, I was at the position in my unit at
12 Kaurske Ravni that has already been mentioned. In the afternoon on that
13 day, it was necessary for me to go down to my house and to Mehurici
14 because of messages that I had received from a unit in Travnik.
15 It was about 1700 hours when I went down to Mehurici, and on my
16 way there I noticed a lot of people who were moving around in a confused
17 manner. When I entered this settlement, I saw a group of women crying,
18 and I also noticed some young men standing nearby. Two of them approached
19 me. I asked them about what was happening there. I asked them why one of
20 the women was crying. They said that about five minutes ago, the
21 Mujahedin had taken her husband away. Her husband's name was
22 Alija Delalic. They had taken him to a camp.
23 At that point in time, I noticed that notorious white Toyota that
24 was returning over the bridge from the camp and continued in the direction
25 of the school. They didn't linger there for long, perhaps two, three, or
1 four minutes. They returned soon afterwards, and we saw that they were
2 taking away another man who had been the secretary of the school for a
3 long time. He had a flat near the school in which he lived with his
4 family, and they took him to the camp too.
5 I was confused and wondered about what I should do. The first
6 thing I did was go to the commander of the battalion called the
7 Sipraski Battalion because most of the men were from Siprage in
8 Kotor Varos municipality, but there were also men from other neighbouring
10 Q. Mr. Ribo, you set off in the direction of the battalion command.
11 Who did you find in the command when you went there?
12 A. Well, I found a man whose name was Mehmed Musanovic there. He was
13 born in Skender Vakuf, and he was deputy commander of the battalion. I
14 asked him whether he knew about what was happening. He said that he was
15 also surprised and that he didn't understand what was going on. He was a
16 man from Knezevo.
17 Since part of the command was absent - they were somewhere at the
18 positions - asked me to try and establish contact with the battalion
19 commander or someone from the brigade command, because it was certainly
20 time to do something, and there hadn't been any similar situations that
21 might provoke problems and have serious consequences.
22 Q. Mr. Ribo. You said that you found this member of the
23 1st Battalion there. Can you tell me where the troops were, where the
24 army was?
25 A. Well, it was absent. On the whole, the troops were at the
1 positions. There was a conflict of some kind at the peripheral part of
2 the municipality of Vitez. So that's where the troops were.
3 Q. When you told that member of the battalion that the commander
4 should be called, did you subsequently find out anything else about the
5 movement of the Mujahedin at that point in time? Did anyone inform you of
6 their movement?
7 A. Well, while I spoke to Mehmed, the man I have mentioned, there
8 were people who were passing through, because it was quite surprising.
9 The men wanted to obtain information at the command. They wanted to find
10 out about what was happening. So people would appear there, and I know
11 that at one point someone said that many Mujahedin had left Mehurici in
12 vehicles, and they said they assumed or, rather, they said that someone
13 had already found out that they had set off in the direction of the
14 village of Miletici.
15 Q. Given the information that you had, Mr. Ribo, do you know whether
16 this soldier who was on duty contacted his commander and informed him of
17 the situation?
18 A. Well, I can say that Mehmed Musanovic really did react
19 immediately. He found a few men there, and he sent them in the direction
20 of the unit's location, in a vehicle. I was there when he wrote something
21 for the commander, but I also heard him say that if he couldn't -- if
22 Fazlic couldn't come, the commander of the 1st Battalion should come,
23 Mirza Lubenovic. Those what I heard him tell these two men.
24 Q. While you were trying to establish contact with someone from the
25 battalion command or someone who might be able to come to the -- might be
1 able to go to the school, to the command, did you find out anything else
2 about these Mujahedin, and at any point in time did they appear in the
4 A. Well, time passes by very rapidly in such situations, more rapidly
5 than usual. Around dusk, quite a few people had gathered in that common
6 room or in what used to be the common room, but it was the command at the
7 time. People spoke about various things, and it was said at one point
8 that the Mujahedin were passing through Mehurici, and they were leading a
9 column of people who had been tied up. They had almost crossed the bridge
10 and turned off in the direction of the camp when we saw that they had done
11 something. Since they had tied these people up and taken them to the
12 camp, they had done something.
13 Q. Apart from this soldier Mehmed, and yourself and the people you
14 sent to inform the commander, were there members of the BH army in the
15 village itself who you could have engaged to provide assistance?
16 A. Well, at one point we were joined by a young man whose name was
17 Suljic Dervis. He told me that his father had been taken away with the
18 imprisoned people. And his father's brother, his uncle, and his father's
19 uncle, an elderly man. So these were Bosniaks who lived in Donji Miletici
20 who were also tied up and taken to that camp.
21 That's what I found out there. And I saw that Suljic was very
22 depressed. He was shaking. He seemed like a young man who was lost. We
23 tried to soothe him; we said everything would be fine. We sent people to
24 the command to see what should be done in such a situation.
25 Q. Mr. Ribo, did you find out from those people that perhaps someone
1 from among the civilian population had tried to resist those Mujahedin or
2 at least ask them about what they were doing? And how did this affair
4 A. Well, at one point immediately after this column had been taken
5 away in the direction of the camp, two young men approached me. They were
6 neighbours of mine. One of them whose name was Meho Poparic, told me that
7 he met the column of those local people at the entrance to the village of
8 Mehurici, the column of the people being taken towards the camp. He tried
9 to approach them and asked them why they had tied these people up and why
10 they were taking them away. Mujahedin approached him and hit him with his
11 rifle butt, and he fell into a ditch as a result of the blow.
12 Q. Given the situation that you and the local people were in, did
13 anyone from the battalion command appear at any point in time? And what
14 did you decide to do or, rather, to attempt to do?
15 A. Well, I must say that before anyone arrived from the battalion,
16 there were quite a few people who lived there, and they wondered about
17 what should be done in a reasonable, in a rational way. It was my
18 impression that it was necessary to try and attempt to try to liberate the
19 people as soon as possible. It was necessary to try to get them released,
20 because we assumed that these people were perhaps not armed. We thought
21 that they were probably not a threat, which is what the Mujahedin claimed,
22 because these were people who lived there and we knew them.
23 At about 7.00 or half past seven in the meaning, Mirza Lubenovic,
24 the battalion commander, arrived. Naturally, as the commander, he took
25 over the key role in attempting to find a solution to the problem, or,
1 rather, in attempting to get the people from the camp released.
2 Q. Did anyone try to establish contact of any kind with those
3 Mujahedin from that camp, and did anyone ever engage in negotiations?
4 A. Well, naturally -- first of all, the problem was that the problem
5 couldn't be solved without their presence. We could take decisions of
6 various kinds, but without the presence of their leading men, the problem
7 couldn't be solved.
8 Someone had an idea. At that time they had kept two rooms in the
9 school, on the floor that they had occupied, and someone called Ramadan
10 seemed to be logistics man for the Mujahedin. That's the impression we
11 had. He always moved around independently. So someone thought of this
12 man, and one went up there and called him. In about half an hour's time,
13 he came down and said that he had no authority to discuss this matter
14 since it was purely military matter and only the battalion commander
15 could -- the only thing the battalion commander could do was try and
16 establish contact with the main figure in the camp, Abu Haris. They said
17 that he was from Libya, and they called him "Doctor." It seems that he
18 had completed medical school.
19 The commander sent some of his men to the camp, but they returned.
20 He had refused to get involved in negotiations of any kind. Later on,
21 perhaps because Lubenovic had insisted, Ramadan went up there with
22 representatives from the battalion. We then found out that Abu Haris
23 would come. He didn't say when, but he said he would come. And he did
24 come at about half past nine in the evening, escorted by two or three
25 armed men. They had their rifles at the ready. So at about half past
1 nine, these negotiations started, negotiations to get these people
3 We believed that these people were innocent and that it was not
4 necessary for them to be kept in the camp. And if any action had to be
5 taken against them, the army was there. And I must say that at that time
6 in the Zagradje school, there was a platoon, a BH army platoon, that could
7 assume the duty of guarding these people.
8 Q. You said that negotiations had started. Do you know what the
9 results of the negotiations were or, rather, do you know who the first
10 person released was, and when did this occur?
11 A. Well, towards the end of the negotiations, I found out that at
12 about 10.00, these three Bosniaks were released, three Bosniaks who had
13 been taken up there together with the Croats from the village of Miletici.
14 I found out that they had been freed.
15 Q. After --
16 A. They were set free.
17 Q. Did you continue to negotiate in order to release the other
18 villagers of Miletici?
19 A. Yes, of course, we continued. We insisted that people should be
20 released, that people should not stay in the camp over the night.
21 I must say that the situation was as follows: Some kilometre or
22 kilometre and a half away from Mehurici there was an HVO line from which
23 fire was opened constantly. I spoke to the negotiators, to the
24 representatives of the Mujahedin, and very simply we were afraid that
25 there would be shooting and some of the Mujahedin might be wounded or
1 killed. And this would lead to a tragedy, in our view. And that in that
2 case, the Mujahedin would retaliate and kill a dozen or more people in the
3 camp, of the prisoners. So we insisted that the negotiations should be
4 brought to an end and that the people should be released.
5 Q. Mr. Ribo, did you manage to convince these people from the camp,
6 the Mujahedin, that they should release your neighbours?
7 A. These negotiations lasted until 11.00 in the evening, and
8 Abu Haris had a lot of demands and requests. First of all, he wanted
9 guarantees that these people would not flee. It was already dark. There
10 was a forest very close. He wanted to know where they would be taken and
11 accommodated. Obviously in all that, we had suggestions. My personal
12 suggestion was that they -- these people should be accommodated in my
13 house and in the houses of my neighbours and that we would guarantee the
14 safety of these people. And we also guaranteed that none of them would
15 flee. Having heard this suggestion, Abu Haris consulted his men and
16 accepted our suggestion.
17 Around half past eleven, the negotiations were completed.
18 However, there was an additional problem, and the problem was how to
19 transport these people up to those houses. It was dark. There were
20 mountains on both sides. There was a bus there that was used for the
21 transportation of the BiH army units. The driver was also there. So we
22 said that the driver should bring the bus all the way to the camp, leaving
23 only a distance of some ten metres between the bus and the detainees, and
24 this is what happened.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have some ten or
1 so questions for this witness. Maybe this is a good time for a break, and
2 I would like to continue after the break.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it is time for the break.
4 We will resume at 11.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.
6 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We resume our session. You may
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Mr. Ribo, before the break, you told us that finally you managed
11 to convince the Mujahedin to release your neighbours, that you found a bus
12 that would transport them from Mehurici. Where did you go? Where did you
13 accommodate these people?
14 A. When these people were released from that building where they were
15 accommodated and when they got on the bus, we drove off to Luka where my
16 house is. As had been agreed, most of the people were accommodated in my
17 house, on the ground floor, and seven or eight of them were accommodated
18 in the three neighbouring houses.
19 Q. Given the situation of these people, did the battalion commander
20 offer them any additional assistance?
21 A. At the end of our negotiations, it was said that a doctor would
22 accompany us, and the doctor was there with us from the moment these
23 people were released, and he stayed with them throughout the night. He
24 was in my house most of the time, but from time to time he would also pay
25 a visit to the neighbouring houses where some of the people from Miletici
1 were accommodated.
2 Q. Do you know what happened on the following day and a few days
4 A. On the following day, on the 25th of April, very early in the
5 morning I was told that I had to go to the position. I went there, and
6 once my mission was accomplished, around noon of that day I returned via
7 the village of Mehurici, and I got to my house. There I found these
8 people on the road leading up to their village. It was a very nice day.
9 I also noticed a few vehicles, a few UNPROFOR vehicles. I learned from
10 the people who were present there that in the village up there, the mixed
11 commission composed of members of the army and the HVO was there. They
12 were carrying out a on-site inspection. Some ten or 15 minutes later,
13 they appeared accompanied by an UNPROFOR vehicle.
14 They addressed the people who were gathered in front of my house,
15 and I recognised Mr. Dzemal Merdan, who represented the BH army, and I
16 also recognised Mr. Nakic, who represented the HVO.
17 In the conversation that we had with them, Merdan and Nakic asked
18 the people whether they wished to stay in the village or, alternatively,
19 whether they wanted to leave the village. Most of the people said that
20 they wished to leave after the inspection was finished. A certain number,
21 however, decided that they wanted to stay. They believed that they were
22 safe there and that they trusted the BH army to protect them and to
23 safeguard them.
24 In the meantime, I learned from some of the young men that that
25 evening when people were taken away, that four people stayed in the
1 village and that they were killed. So at the end of the day, there were
2 five dead bodies there because one of them had already been killed before.
3 Q. Do you know who buried these people?
4 A. These people were taken away on the 27th of April, an UNHCR
5 vehicle took them to Nova Bila, and I really don't know where they were
6 buried and what happened to the bodies after that.
7 Q. The neighbours who said that they wanted to stay, did any of the
8 members of the BH army get the task to secure them, or did they go to the
9 village on their own?
10 A. The people who decided to stay in the village were promised that
11 the platoon, which was present at all times in the Zagradje school, would
12 provide security to the Miletici settlement and that they shouldn't fear
13 for their safety.
14 Q. Mr. Ribo, during the negotiations in which you yourself took part
15 in the attempt to liberate your neighbours, did you, as a soldier, or the
16 battalion commander who arrived subsequently, did you -- were you in a
17 position to issue any orders to these foreigners? Were you under the
18 impression that any sort of order could have been given to these
20 A. The mere fact that we invested so much time and effort to reach
21 the person in charge shows that there could have been no cooperation with
22 them, let alone us issuing orders to them. They were independent in what
23 they were doing, and it was impossible to cooperate with them in any way.
24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Ribo.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't have any
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 further questions for this witness.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team, do you
3 have any questions for this witness?
4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We do
5 have a few questions in order to clarify some of the answers that have
6 been provided by the witness.
7 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ribo, when you mentioned the 24th of April,
9 1993, and the events in Miletici, on that day, in the afternoon, you
10 returned from the position; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. And then you noticed that something was already going on. You
13 were provided with the information that Mr. Delalic had been taken away,
14 as well as Mr. Obradovic. Then you went to the command of the
15 1st Battalion. When you said the 1st Battalion, you meant the
16 306th Brigade; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, it is.
18 Q. If I understood you correctly, when you mentioned the 1st
19 Battalion on page 24, 25, 26 of today's LiveNote, you meant the
20 1st Battalion of the 306th Brigade; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Mr. Mehmed Musanovic whom you've mentioned --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- he was the deputy commander?
25 A. Yes, of the 1st Battalion of the 306th Brigade.
1 Q. During the events and the negotiations with the Mujahedin and the
2 events that you saw and witnessed, you did not notice any of the officers
3 or members of the 7th Brigade on that day; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that is corrected. I did not notice any of them.
5 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. We have no
6 further questions for this witness, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Mr. Mundis, you have
8 the floor.
9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:
11 Q. Good morning, Witness. My name is Daryl Mundis, and along with my
12 colleague Mr. Neuner, we represent the Prosecution in this case, and we're
13 going to be asking you some questions until the next technical break.
14 I want to start by saying that it is not my intention in any way
15 to confuse you, so that if you don't understand any of my questions, I
16 would kindly ask you to tell me that, and I will either rephrase or repeat
17 the question so that you fully understand it before you answer.
18 A. Very well.
19 Q. Let me just start by asking you some questions so that I fully
20 understand your testimony. From the beginning of when the 312th Motorised
21 Brigade was formed until the end of 1993, did you remain with that brigade
22 throughout that period of time?
23 A. Yes. From the very establishment of this unit until the end of
24 1993 I was with the 312th Motorised Brigade throughout all this time.
25 Q. And, sir, during this period of time, from the establishment of
1 the 312th Motorised Brigade until the end of 1993, did you hold any type
2 of rank or any position whereby you had soldiers under your command?
3 A. At the very beginning, I was one of the crew of the howitzer. A
4 few months later when we managed to train the second crew and we had two
5 crews, then we established the command platoon of our detachment and two
6 crews on the howitzer. So at one point in time I held the position of the
7 deputy commander of the platoon, of the 105-millimetre howitzer platoon.
8 Q. Sir, do you recall approximately when that was that you assumed
9 this position as deputy commander of the platoon?
10 A. I can't remember exactly what the date was, but I believe that
11 this was sometime in either December or January. December 1992 or January
13 Q. And again referring to the period from the formation of the
14 brigade through the end of 1993, were you at the location at Kaurske Ravni
15 at those times when you were deployed?
16 A. Yes. When the 312th Motorised Brigade was established, I was
17 constantly and exclusively there. This is where I served in the army.
18 This was my position. Kaurske Ravni was my position.
19 Q. So when you say exclusively there, I just want to understand that
20 at no point in time during 1993 were you involved in combat operations or
21 activities anywhere other than Kaurske Ravni?
22 A. That's correct. During that period of time, we were mostly
23 deployed on Kaurske Ravni. This is where our artillery piece was, and
24 this was our fire position.
25 Q. And throughout this period, again from the formation of the
1 brigade through the end of 1993, where were you living?
2 A. I was living in the settlement of Luka Zagradje. I've already
3 mentioned that. And I've already said that the distance between my
4 village and Mehurici is about two kilometres. Mehurici, in local terms,
5 is a somewhat bigger settlement.
6 Q. You've mentioned it was somewhat bigger in local terms. Can you
7 tell the Trial Chamber the approximate number of people who lived in
8 Mehurici in 1993?
9 A. Mehurici had about a thousand inhabitants. At that time, the
10 population moved a lot. It is very difficult for me to say exactly how
11 many people there were. A lot of refugees arrived from various parts of
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they would find accommodation in that area.
13 However, when we're talking about the locals who, mind you, also left the
14 area in large numbers, many left with their families and settled abroad.
15 Everybody who had the opportunity to do so did that. But let me say that
16 there were about a thousand or so inhabitants.
17 Q. And approximately how many people lived in Luka Zagradje in 1993?
18 A. In 1993, Luka Zagradje had about five or -- 15 or 16 houses, which
19 means that there could have been approximately -- well, let's say there
20 was an average of five to six people inhabiting one of the -- one house.
21 Again, a lot of people arrived after having been expelled from certain
22 parts of Travnik, Vitez, or -- or Jajce, Skender Vakuf, Kotor Varos.
23 Q. Sir, what is the difference or can you tell us the relationship
24 between Luka Zagradje and the village of Zagradje?
25 A. The village of Zagradje is an old settlement on the slope of this
1 hill that goes up to Kaurske Ravni. It's a large village which has about
2 800 inhabitants. Luka, however, is a new settlement which was organised
3 around the school in the 60s. People started building their houses there
4 and moving in. This new settlement, Luka, is in the valley by the river.
5 Zagradje is on a bit more elevated level, on the slope of this hill.
6 Q. And, sir, from the village or town of Zagradje, would like a be to
7 the north, south, east, west?
8 A. Luka is -- was built on the terrain connecting Zagradje and the
9 river valley, and the distance would be about half a kilometre from the
10 very beginning of Zagradje village. And the direction is south-east.
11 Luka is south-east to the village of Zagradje.
12 Q. Now, sir, during the period from the formation of the brigade
13 through the end of 1993, how frequently were you in the town of Mehurici?
14 A. When I was free, when I was on leave, that's when I would go to
15 Mehurici. I had a lot of friends down there, and we would gather there in
16 a restaurant owned by a good friend of mine. We would exchange views. We
17 would meet there. We would gather there.
18 Q. Well, I understand that more than a decade later it's hard to
19 perhaps recall, but would you have been there during this period from 1992
20 through 1993? Would you have been there once a week, once a month, every
21 other month, every couple of days? Roughly how frequently would you be in
22 Mehurici during this period?
23 A. My shifts lasted ten to 12 days. So at least once during that
24 time interval I would go down to Mehurici.
25 Q. And again during the period from the formation of the brigade
1 through the end of 1993, were you at any point in time in Travnik and, if
2 so, approximately how many times?
3 A. I went to Travnik rarely, especially when the roads were blocked
4 leading from Mehurici to Travnik via the Bila valley. In the first half
5 of 1993, I went to Travnik very rarely. There was a time when I wouldn't
6 go to Travnik for a few months.
7 Q. Let me return now to your platoon that you were the deputy
8 commander of. Can you tell us which battalion your platoon was part of?
9 A. Our platoon did not belong to any battalion. The 312th Motorised
10 Brigade had battalions, but they also had the artillery part of the unit
11 which was called Mad [as interpreted] at the beginning, and later on the
12 Had [as interpreted] Battalion, the howitzer division. This is what the
13 situation was like at the time.
14 Q. So, sir, during this period from the formation of the brigade
15 through the end of 1993, to whom did you report as the deputy commander?
16 I assume you reported to the platoon commander.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. To whom did the platoon commander report?
19 A. I was reporting to the platoon commander, and the platoon
20 commander reported to the commander of the howitzer division who resided
21 in Travnik, and that is where he stayed most of the time.
22 Q. Now, I'd like to turn to the issue that you discussed with the
23 Defence concerning the arrival of the foreigners whom you described as
24 Arabic or you initially called them Arabs. You told us that they began
25 arriving in the Mehurici area in the summer of 1992; is that correct?
1 A. Well, yes. I personally noticed their presence in the summer of
3 Q. Now, by the summer of 1992, would you describe the situation in
4 Bosnia as being a wartime situation?
5 A. Certainly. The BiH army was in conflict with the Serbian side.
6 This was a fully-blown conflict. And the situation with the
7 Croatian Defence Council deteriorated by the day, so that towards the end
8 of 1992, we experienced the initial conflicts in the area of
9 Central Bosnia involving the HVO and the BiH army. This occurred, for
10 example, in the area of Novi Travnik.
11 Q. Let me ask you, sir, if because of the wartime situation,
12 particularly by the end of 1992 in Central Bosnia, was the security
13 situation tense?
14 A. Yes. Once the conflicts escalated in October and November 1992 in
15 the area of Novi Travnik, conflict -- the conflicts involving the BH army
16 and the HVO, the situation, the security situation, was really very tense
17 in the whole area and deteriorated rapidly.
18 Q. I ask you this question, sir, because it would seem that the
19 presence of these foreigners, that is, outsiders, people who were not from
20 the town of Mehurici, did that raise any security concerns in terms of who
21 these people were in light of the increased security situation?
22 A. Certainly. We wondered where these people came from and how come
23 they were not incorporated into BiH army units. This was an open issue.
24 This is something that we pondered upon quite a lot.
25 Q. When you say you wondered why they were not incorporated into BiH
1 army units, is that because these people were primarily fighting with the
2 BH army?
3 A. We just asked ourselves -- and this was something that was a bit
4 illogical, that foreigners were active in that area, and they were not
5 part of the regular units. They simply evaded that. And we had the
6 impression that they were simply avoiding that. They did not want to
7 become part of the regular forces. They did not want anybody to have
8 command over them. They seemed to be a certain group which did not wish
9 to have a command, which did not accept a command. They acted on their
10 own and moved on their own. They simply did not wish to join the forces
11 which were under the command which existed in that area. At least that is
12 my impression.
13 Q. But the --
14 A. I don't have any particular reason to think that. I don't have
15 any knowledge about it.
16 Q. When you say the foreigners were active in that area, what do you
17 mean by "active"? Were they involved in combat?
18 A. From what I could see, they did not participate in combat very
19 often. They spent most of the time in that camp of theirs, as they called
20 it. And at the same time, they also would go to different areas where
21 they were conducting their own exercises. They would go and come back.
22 They were constantly moving between the camp and some other areas, but for
23 the most part they didn't participate directly in -- in the operations,
24 and they were not part of the existing units in that area that belonged to
25 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
1 Q. Now, sir, you said that they did not participate in combat very
2 often, and for the most part they didn't participate directly in the
3 operations. Are you aware from firsthand knowledge of situations where
4 they did participate in combat operations with the BH army?
5 A. In our area of responsibility in this sector towards the Serbian
6 forces, I am aware that they did come out into the field on a couple of
7 occasions, but they would also withdraw without being accountable to
8 anybody. They would just simply come and then they would say that they
9 were surveying the terrain. That's what they would say. They simply did
10 not want to take upon themselves an area of responsibility and hold it.
11 Mostly they operated as freelancers, if I may put it that way. They would
12 be in a certain area for a certain period at their own discretion, and
13 then they would leave when they wanted to.
14 Q. Now, sir, would it be correct to say that one of the
15 distinguishing characteristics of a motorised brigade, in general terms,
16 was that such a brigade would have a large number of vehicles to transport
17 its troops with?
18 A. Yes, of course. Motorised brigades, by establishment, are
19 composed in such a way that they have strong logistics aspect, and they
20 have everything that they are supposed to have in the composition of the
22 In this case, our brigade did not really meet these requirements.
23 Q. However, sir, you did tell us that the Arabs or what you later
24 called Mujahedin in Mehurici or in the Mehurici area had some vehicles.
25 A. Yes. They were recognisable because they had these Toyotas.
1 These were open vehicles, and they would often stand on the flatbed of
2 these vehicles. That was the main distinguishing characteristic that I
3 was able to see when we're talking about them.
4 Q. I'll ask you a few more questions about the vehicles in a moment,
5 but let first ask you: In the last six months, in the last half of 1992,
6 how many Mujahedin were present in the Mehurici area? A rough
7 approximation, if you can inform us of that.
8 A. I already mentioned that it was very difficult to estimate how
9 many of them there were because they were completely separated and
10 isolated in that camp. And also, when they moved, they didn't walk very
11 often. They would move in the vehicles. So it was very difficult to make
12 a realistic estimate. But in conversations with some of my friends, we
13 came to the conclusion that maybe there were about 100 of them. That was
14 the general impression. Because it was really impossible to make a
15 specific number, because it was really impossible to enter their camp for
16 others, or for anyone except for those who had joined them and who had
17 agreed to work with then.
18 Q. During 1993, did the number of the Mujahedin remain at about 100,
19 or did it increase, or did it decrease?
20 A. This is a difficult question. First of all because I didn't have
21 the opportunity to monitor such changes. But I could say that in the
22 second half of 1993, it became obvious that there were more of them. And
23 it was also obvious that a certain number of the local population had
24 joined them, meaning the people from these areas.
25 Q. Would it be fair to say, sir, that the number of the Mujahedin,
1 including the local Bosniaks who joined them, the number of these people
2 increased as the conflict with the HVO intensified during 1993?
3 A. In that context, perhaps in a way you could notice something. The
4 most important thing was that, for example, if you were following their
5 presence, their numbers, these were mostly people who were not easy to
6 identify because of the way they looked, because -- because of the way
7 they looked, the clothes that they wore. So it's a little bit difficult
8 to gain a true picture of their true number, the actual number of them.
9 Q. Sir, you told us that when they -- at the beginning they mostly
10 wore traditional clothes, and then you said on page 13 that later they
11 wore uniforms. What kind of uniforms did they have?
12 A. They wore these uniforms, military uniforms, which they bought
13 from somewhere. I don't know where. But it's a fact that we knew that
14 they had certain financial means, and by calling and appealing to a
15 certain number of people who had joined them, it was clear -- well, I have
16 to tell you right away that these uniforms were not all the same. They
17 had different uniforms that we could distinguish, ranging from members of
18 some other armies in Europe. How they acquired these uniforms, I really
19 have no idea.
20 Q. Let's return, sir, to the issue of the vehicles. You told us that
21 they had rather characteristic flatbed Toyota vehicles. Do you recall
22 approximately how many such vehicles they had?
23 A. I really couldn't say because these vehicles were the same. They
24 all looked the same, so it was difficult to tell them apart. They were
25 white, and it was difficult to distinguish whether we saw one today or
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 earlier or which one was new. I can perhaps say that in that time period
2 in that area, they had about ten such vehicles.
3 Q. Did the vehicles have any type of markings or do you remember what
4 type of licence plates the vehicles had?
5 A. I think that most of the vehicles didn't have any licence plates,
6 the ones that were driving around in that area in Mehurici. I don't know
7 whether vehicles used in some other areas had licence plates, but the ones
8 in that area didn't have any markings or licence plates.
9 Q. Approximately how many people could be transported in each of
10 these vehicles?
11 A. The open part in the back could fit about ten, eight to ten of
12 them. That's where they would stand. And at least when they would pass
13 through the settlements they would be standing in the back of the vehicles
15 Q. How frequently did you see these Mujahedin travelling in these
17 A. I already mentioned before. They mostly moved around in these
18 vehicles. They walked on foot through the settlements very, very rarely.
19 They would most often move around in these vehicles.
20 At that time, I didn't have any opportunity to see them walking in
21 a column or anything like that. I would mostly see them when they were
22 driving around.
23 Another thing that was characteristic was that they would usually
24 drive a little faster than normal.
25 Q. Now, if I understood your testimony earlier correctly, you have
1 lived in the area near Mehurici, Zagradje, for most of your life?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And during the 11 years that you were a teacher in Mehurici, you
4 obviously encountered hundreds of students.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And if I did my math right, you stopped being a teacher in the
7 school in Mehurici approximately 1990?
8 A. Yes. I stopped working in late 1990 at the Mehurici school. In
9 1991, I spent a great deal of time in Nasice with my brother.
10 Q. Thank you. Let me return to a topic that you mentioned several
11 times today, and that is the local Bosniak men who joined the Mujahedin.
12 Do you recall or can you tell us approximately how many Bosniak men
13 affiliated themselves with the Mujahedin in Mehurici?
14 A. As far as I know, in the settlement itself, Mehurici and the areas
15 close by, there weren't that many. Maybe about ten or 12, as far as I
16 know. This is in the -- in Mehurici itself and the areas that are closest
17 to it.
18 Q. Other than these ten or 12 people, did you become aware or know of
19 any local Bosniaks from outside the immediate area who affiliated
20 themselves with the Mujahedin in Mehurici or in the Mehurici environs?
21 A. Of course. As I was living there, I heard and I learned, had
22 information to that effect, that a certain number of people joined the
23 Mujahedin from the area of Han Bila. But it's interesting that a
24 considerable number of people who had been expelled or had fled from other
25 areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina and who came to the area of the Travnik
1 municipality, and specifically to the Bila valley area, had joined the
2 Mujahedin. What their reasons were they would know best, but I know that
3 these were people who had previously been expelled.
4 Q. Sir, you also told us earlier that of the ten to 12 local Bosniaks
5 who joined the Mujahedin, you knew some of them and actually inquired of
6 them why they had affiliated themselves with the Mujahedin. Your answer
7 was that they were offered uniforms and weapons by the Mujahedin. Is that
9 A. Yes. That was their response to my question why they had joined
11 Q. Do you recall the names of these ten to 12 people that you spoke
12 with who affiliated themselves with the Mujahedin? And if you don't feel
13 comfortable saying that in public, we can certainly go into private
14 session for you to do so.
15 A. I really couldn't recall the names of all ten right now, but I
16 could remember some names. I've forgotten most of the names, but perhaps
17 if I thought about it a little bit more, perhaps I could remember some of
19 Q. Sitting here now, sir, do you remember the names of one or two or
20 three or any of these individuals?
21 A. I remember a young man who approached me at the time during the
22 Miletici case. His name was Adnan Pasanovic. He stayed with them,
23 completed the training, and then he later rejoined the BH army. He
24 returned to the BH army.
25 Q. Do you remember the names of anyone else?
1 A. I remember a person. His last name is Jasarevic. I can't
2 remember his first name. This is a man who is working, Jasarevic.
3 I also recall a person whose last name was Celam. I cannot
4 remember his first name.
5 Q. Let me ask you if you know the names of Osman Tahirovic.
6 A. Yes. I know Osman Tahirovic.
7 Q. Did Osman Tahirovic affiliate with the Mujahedin in Mehurici in
8 1992 or 1993?
9 A. Well, you could see that he was cooperating with them. I know
10 that together with another man, he worked in a cafe where they would drop
11 by to drink coffee.
12 Q. Rather than drinking -- or stopping by to drink coffee, did
13 Osman Tahirovic affiliate himself or receive any training or uniforms from
14 the Mujahedin?
15 A. I don't know personally what his particular relationship was with
16 them in that sense of belonging or uniforms. I know, though, that when
17 they were staying at the school, he worked as a cook or something like
18 that for them, and that's how I would see him in the same places that they
19 would frequent, in that cafe and so on.
20 Q. Do you know if at any point in 1993 Osman Tahirovic was a member
21 of the ABiH?
22 A. I can't remember exactly, because the population of Zagradje was
23 mostly in the 314th Unit, which was holding the positions in the area
24 facing Teslic. So I really don't know. I can't remember. I do not know
25 whether at the time he was a member of that unit together with the others
1 from the village.
2 Q. Do you know if at any point in time in the second half of 1992 if
3 Osman Tahirovic was a member of the Muslimanske Snage in Travnik?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. Let me return to the general issue of Bosniaks affiliating with
6 the Mujahedin. Do you know an individual by the name of Ramo Durmis?
7 A. Yes, I do. I would see him in Mehurici. As far as I knew at the
8 time, he was born in Zenica, and I think he was one of the first to join
9 the Mujahedin in that area.
10 Q. Do you know if at any point in time Ramo Durmis was a member of
11 the ABiH 3rd Corps?
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. Do you know whether Ramo Durmis went by any other names or
15 A. No, I didn't know that personally. I knew him by sight. I would
16 see him, for example, when he passed through Mehurici. So no, I don't
18 Q. Do you know if Ramo Durmis was married to a woman from Maline?
19 A. I don't know.
20 Q. Sir, do you know an individual by the name of Emsud Karadzic
21 [sic], and do you know if he had any affiliation with the Mujahedin? I
22 note in the transcript it says "Karadzic." The name is Kadiric. Emsud
24 A. It is the first time I've heard of this name. I don't know such a
1 Q. Now, sir, let me turn to the topic of the Mujahedin camp. Do you
2 know specifically where this camp was that was in the immediate vicinity
3 of Mehurici?
4 A. Yes, I do, because you can see it with the naked eye. It's at the
5 edge of Mehurici, between 500 and 800 metres, and that's where the Savici
6 settlement was located. The population, up until 1991, was mainly
7 Serbian. And when they arrived in the school and left the school, they
8 entered that village, and that is where they formed the camp.
9 Q. Where is the Savici settlement in relation to Poljanice?
10 A. Savici, in relation to Poljanice, is to the south-east, but it's
11 very close. The fields, the land, link up the two villages. It's just
12 the land that belongs to the people living there that separates the two
14 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the assistance of the usher, I'm
15 going to show the witness a map. And I don't know if these locations are
16 on here, but I would certainly ask that the witness mark these places if
17 he's able to see them on the map. And I do have sufficient copies. It's
18 simply part of the rather large map that we've been using that's mounted.
19 I would ask that that be placed on the ELMO, please, and that the
20 witness be provided with a thin marker if that's possible. I think the
21 thick ones might be ...
22 Q. Now, Witness, before marking anything, I would ask you first to
23 take a look at this map.
24 MR. MUNDIS: And if the usher could please centre it a little bit
25 better. We're actually looking at the upper-left corner of the map.
1 That's perfect.
2 Q. Now, Witness, before making any marks, let me ask you if you see
3 the location where the Savici settlement is on this map.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. First, if you could point to it, please, and then I'll ask you to
6 mark it.
7 MR. MUNDIS: And perhaps the AV booth could, I don't know, focus
8 that a little bit better or ...
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's more or less here.
10 MR. MUNDIS:
11 Q. Okay. Witness, if you could then take the black marker, the thin
12 black marker that the usher will provide you with, and if you could circle
13 the area representing the Savici settlement?
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. And perhaps to the -- to the immediate right of that, if you could
16 write the word "Savici."
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, it was in the location that you've just
19 circled where the Mujahedin had their training camp?
20 A. Yes. That's where they were. That's where the camp was located.
21 Q. And, sir, while we have this map, let me ask you a couple of other
22 questions relating to some areas.
23 MR. MUNDIS: And if the usher could move that map down just a
24 little bit or -- actually, up, the other direction. A little bit more,
25 please. Thank you.
1 Q. And it may not be on here, sir, but can you see, and again using
2 the pointer before making any marks, do you see the Luka area of Zagradje
3 on this map and, if so, could you please point to that on this map?
4 A. This is where Luka is.
5 Q. Thank you, Witness. If you could again take the thin, black
6 marker, circle the Luka settlement.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. And perhaps a little bit below that and maybe to the right if you
9 could write the word "Luka."
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Now, sir, you also told us on the -- I believe it was the 24th but
12 correct me if I'm mistaken. The 24th of April, 1993, you saw a column of
13 villagers being taken somewhere by the Mujahedin.
14 A. At dusk, we were involved in discussions concerning someone
15 arriving from the command of the unit while they were being taken through
16 Mehurici. This is where the bridge is. When this was being done, someone
17 informed us that they were taking this column away, and we noticed that
18 they were taking them to the camp. The column had almost passed through
19 at that time. The school is here, and they were passing through.
20 Q. Okay, sir. If -- I'm going to show you in just a moment a
21 close-up map, a more detailed map of Mehurici, and perhaps you could use
22 that map to assist the Trial Chamber, but let me just ask you this
23 question, and I don't believe it's visible on this map, but you tell us:
24 Is Kaurske Ravni, where you were positioned, visible on this map or is it
25 actually off the map?
1 A. Kaurske Ravni can't be seen on this map. It's a little further
3 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, based on your knowledge and familiarity
4 with this area, approximately how far is it from Miletici to Mehurici?
5 A. From Mehurici to Luka, well, it's exactly two kilometres from
6 Mehurici to Luka. And then there is the route -- road that leads to
7 Miletici. From the river, I think it's about a kilometre to up there. In
8 the village itself there's Donji Miletici, and here we have
9 Gornji Miletici.
10 Q. Okay. But just so it's clear, from Mehurici to Luka is two
11 kilometres; is that right?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 Q. And from Luka to Miletici it's about a kilometre?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. MUNDIS: Again, Mr. President, with the assistance of the
17 usher, I would ask that the witness be shown a map of Mehurici. Again,
18 it's a further enhancement of the large mounted map which we've been using
19 throughout these proceedings. And I do have sufficient copies.
20 While that's being done, Mr. President, are we sitting until
21 12.30? Is that the time of the next technical break?
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I apologise.
24 Perhaps my colleague can provide us with information. We can see a map of
25 Orasac but not one of Miletici -- Mehurici. We have a map of Orasac.
1 MR. MUNDIS: Yes. We seem to have misdistributed a couple of
2 maps. If the usher could take the -- that's the correct map on the ELMO.
3 It appears as though the Defence -- I don't know about the accused but
4 certainly the Defence have ...
5 And perhaps again if the AV booth could zoom out a bit on this map
6 that would be helpful. Or maybe not if it's not possible.
7 Q. Okay. Witness, you have in front of you now a map of Mehurici.
8 Let me ask you, first of all, if you recognise this portrayal of the
9 village of Mehurici.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Before I ask you to make any markings again with the thin, black
12 marker, if you could take the pointer that you have and identify for us
13 the primary school in Mehurici.
14 A. That's the primary school.
15 Q. Okay. Sir, if you could take the thin, black marker that the
16 usher will provide to you and circle that, please. I take it, sir, that
17 the SK above that, does that indicate skola or school?
18 A. Yes, it's the school.
19 Q. If you could circle the building and the identifying letters, that
20 will help us all remember what you've -- what you've marked. So if you
21 could please circle the school building and the letters SK.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Thank you. Now, let me ask you this, sir: Are you familiar
24 again, based on the amount of time that you've spent in Mehurici, with the
25 location of the blacksmith shop?
1 A. The blacksmith's shop was used by this labour organisation called
2 Sebesic. They would forge certain items that were necessary for tractors
3 or for other reasons.
4 Q. Do you know where the -- where the blacksmith shop, and again, I'm
5 talking about 1993, the location of the blacksmith shop on this map? Is
6 it visible? And if it is, if you could take the pointer and point to it,
8 A. The blacksmith shop should be somewhere here.
9 Q. If you could please circle that, the building that you've
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. And if you could please place just immediately above that the
13 number 1.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Thank you. Now, you've also told us about a bridge in Mehurici
16 where you saw this group of villagers being escorted by the Mujahedin. Do
17 you see this bridge you've been referring to on the map, and if so, could
18 you please point to it?
19 A. [Indicates]
20 Q. Thank you. Could you please circle the bridge with the thin black
21 marker and place the number 2 next to the bridge.
22 A. [Marks]
23 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness, given the scale or the enlargement of
24 this map, I take it that the Savici settlement is not visible on this map.
25 A. Yes. The settlement itself should be here, further down. But
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 recently, in the 1990s, some houses were constructed in this part here,
2 just below this little forest.
3 Q. I'd like to again just stay if we could, sir, focused on 1993.
4 Approximately how far is it from the bridge that you've just circled with
5 the number 2 and the Savici settlement?
6 A. Well, up to the village itself where the old village is located,
7 the distance is between 500 and 700 metres, in my estimate.
8 Q. Thank you. I would ask that if the witness please could on the
9 bottom right-hand corner of this map sign his name and place today's date
10 of 2 November, 2004, on the corners, please.
11 A. [Marks]
12 Q. And sir, before you take that map off, actually, I did have one
13 additional question. The columns that you saw being taken by the
14 Mujahedin, can you, again starting with the pointer, can you point the
15 direction that you personally observed them travelling on that day?
16 A. Well, when we were told that the Mujahedin were taking a column of
17 inhabitants from the village of Miletici away, we passed by the school,
18 and we noticed the end of the column here. There's a building located
19 here in which there was a shop. So they passed by that area, that
20 location, very rapidly. They continued across the bridge. And this would
21 be the area where the camp was located.
22 Q. Okay. Sir, if you could please take the thin, black marker and
23 draw the line of the column as it passed by the school over the bridge and
24 into the camp.
25 A. Should I continue?
1 Q. Yes, please. If you could continue all the way down to where the
2 camp was located in 1993.
3 A. It was here.
4 Q. Thank you, sir. For the benefit of the -- of the record, if you
5 could place the number 3 next to the line.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. And it's not clear to me, sir, but where the line stops, is that
8 where the camp was located?
9 A. Well, as far as I can see, yes. Perhaps it's across this road on
10 this side, about here, because this road turns off in the direction of
11 Poljanice, and this is the road leading to Savici. So it would be more or
12 less in this area as far as I can see on this map.
13 Q. Sir, if you could please circle the area of the camp and place the
14 number 4 next to the circle.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. Thank you, Witness. If you could then on the first map also sign
17 and date it on the bottom right-hand corner, I would appreciate that.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Sir, just a couple of questions before we take the technical
20 break. You told us that the Mujahedin moved into the Serb houses or
21 former Serb houses in the Savici settlement, but you've also told us that
22 the camp was in a meadow, I believe, was the word that was used in the
23 English transcript. Can you tell you the relationship between the former
24 Serb houses and the meadow?
25 A. [No interpretation]
1 Q. Was the meadow in front of the houses or what was the relationship
2 between the houses and the meadow?
3 A. If you're looking at it from the direction of Mehurici, the camp
4 was before the houses themselves in the village of Savici, in the core
5 part of the village. I said that in the 1990s, two houses were
6 constructed and perhaps stables in the lower part, the exit from Mehurici,
7 and I encircled the position of the camp. So they were there in the
8 land -- on the land that belonged to the inhabitants of the village of
9 Savici, in the lower part closer to the village of Mehurici, the
10 settlement, the houses themselves were a little above.
11 Q. Sir, was this camp in any way enclosed such as with fences or
12 gates, or was it simply an open meadow with some houses?
13 A. I personally never passed by the camp. I was never in the
14 vicinity of the camp, so I don't know whether it was fenced in. There
15 wasn't a wall around it because that would have been visible. There was
16 no wall, because from the other side, when I went to the position via the
17 village of Orahovo, I could see the camp from the other side, and it
18 wasn't possible to notice walls or anything like that. As to whether
19 there was a wire fence around it, I really don't know because I never came
20 close to the camp.
21 Q. Thank you, sir.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I note the time.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. It's half past
24 twelve. We'll have our break now, and we will resume at about five to
1 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, please proceed.
4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Witness, I have just a few remaining questions for you. I know
6 that everyone in the courtroom would like to finish your testimony today
7 so that you can go home, so I would ask you to keep your answers as brief
8 as possible, and if need be, we will ask you to expand upon them.
9 You told us earlier this morning that only a few Bosniaks went
10 into the Mujahedin camp, and you said that they were people who had gained
11 their trust. Do you remember saying that?
12 A. I do indeed.
13 Q. Do you remember the names of any of the people that would fall
14 into the category of those who had gained the trust of the Mujahedin and
15 thus were allowed to go into that camp?
16 A. I remember Durmis. We all knew that he often passed that way and
17 entered their camp.
18 Q. Anyone else?
19 A. There were some people whom we used to see, and it was said that
20 they were the ones, but I can't remember any of the names.
21 Q. Witness, do you recall approximately when the Mujahedin left the
22 school in Mehurici and went to the camp or established the camp near
23 Savici settlement?
24 A. I believe that this was sometime in autumn 1992. It was towards
25 the end of summer or beginning of autumn 1992.
1 Q. Now, I believe you also told us that this person whom you
2 identified as Ramadan had been in the school, had had his office in the
3 school in Mehurici.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What exactly was this person Ramadan doing in the school in
6 Mehurici or later in the camp near Savici?
7 A. In my personal view and according to the information that I had,
8 Ramadan was in charge of some logistical duties on behalf of the
9 Mujahedin. He constantly moved about. And the story had it -- I don't
10 know it personally, but the story had it that he had at his disposal a
11 certain amount of money. So he was an important man for them from that
12 point of view.
13 Q. Did this person Ramadan -- first of all, do you know any other
14 name, his first name or his complete name, and where this Ramadan was
16 A. I only know him as Ramadan. At that time, the story had it that
17 he hailed from Jordan.
18 Q. Did this person speak Bosnian at all?
19 A. Well, I had an occasion to hear him during the negotiations. He
20 spoke the language rather well. He understood the language very well, and
21 one could communicate with him. He did have a trace of an accent, but one
22 could communicate with him.
23 Q. And so I take it during the negotiations that he was in fact
24 serving also as an interpreter for Mr. Haris, or Dr. Haris, interpreting
25 between Bosnian and Arabic?
1 A. Yes. On several occasions he got involved in order to explain
2 things. So, yes.
3 Q. Sir, I'd like to turn your attention very quickly to the column of
4 people, including the people who later stayed in your house. These were
5 people from Miletici?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Do you remember the names of any of those people who were part of
8 that column that was taken by the Mujahedin and who later stayed in your
10 A. I remember, for example, Stipo Pavlovic and his wife;
11 Marko Pavlovic and his wife Mara; Zdravko Pavlovic and his wife;
12 Srecko Pavlovic; Ivo Pavlovic and his wife and one of their daughters.
13 Q. Sir, how -- how long did these people remain in your house, and
14 approximately when did they arrive and when did they leave?
15 A. We brought them to my house on the 24th, sometime before midnight.
16 They stayed in my house on the 25th, and on the 26th, in the late hours of
17 the afternoon, they were taken by UNHCR vehicles accompanied by UNPROFOR.
18 All of them were taken there except for the five who had decided to remain
19 in the village.
20 Q. And the five who remained in the village were the five -- I
21 believe you told us that a platoon from the Zagradje school promised to
22 protect those individuals who remained in Miletici. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes. This platoon, which was the platoon on reserve in the
24 school, was tasked with keeping guard and protecting the village,
25 particularly in this initial period of time.
1 Q. And, sir, what happened to those five individuals who remained in
3 A. Well, for a certain period of time they lived there, and then they
4 abandoned the village. Marko Pavlovic and his wife left, his wife Mara.
5 Somewhat later on Zdravko Pavlovic and his wife left. And Srecko Pavlovic
6 remained on his own. I can't remember exactly, but after a certain period
7 of time, Srecko Pavlovic died.
8 Q. Sir, was there ever a time when any of the foreign Mujahedin were
9 staying at the school in Zagradje?
10 A. Yes. When they entered the school in Mehurici, a small group of
11 them, maybe five or six of them, arrived in the Zagradje school. They
12 stayed there for a while.
13 Q. When was that? Sorry. Sorry, sir. When was this that this five
14 or six arrived in the Zagradje school?
15 A. Possibly sometime around the end of 1992. Towards the end of 1992
16 or thereabouts.
17 Q. And how long did they remain there?
18 A. I think that they didn't say any longer than a month or a month
19 and a half. They withdrew down to Mehurici. People who had contacts with
20 them said that they had abandoned that village because the people there
21 did not practice the true Islam, and that's why they decided to leave.
22 Q. I have three last questions, sir. The first one relates to the
23 platoon in the Zagradje school. What brigade did that platoon belong to?
24 A. That platoon belonged to the 314th Brigade.
25 Q. Second question, sir, you made reference several times in your
1 testimony to the Mehurici Detachment that was in the primary school. What
2 did you mean by the Mehurici Detachment, and what unit was that detachment
3 a part of?
4 A. Up to the moment when the brigades were established, the
5 organisation of the army followed detachments. Those were units
6 established in the local communes. So the Mehurici Detachment became part
7 of the 306th Brigade once it was established. And this was also the case
8 with the Han Bila Detachment.
9 Q. And finally, sir, for the benefit of the transcript, you also made
10 reference to the Sipraski battalion. What brigade did that unit belong to
11 and where was it?
12 A. The Siprage Battalion, at the beginning, belonged to the
13 306th Brigade. Its base was in the Mehurici school. The reason for that
14 was that the majority of the members of the battalion was made up of
15 people who had been expelled from Kotor Varos, Skender Vakuf, Jajce,
16 Mrkonjic Grad, and the other territories that fell under the Serb control.
17 Q. I apologise, sir. I have one final question. Who in 1993 was the
18 commander of the Sipraski Brigade -- or Battalion, rather? Sorry.
19 A. The commander of the Sipraski Battalion, while it was on the
20 strength of the 306th, was Mirza Lubenovic. That battalion was later on
21 the core of the 27th Brigade. For the most part, it was made up of people
22 who hailed from these municipalities on the outskirts of Travnik and
23 somewhat further from Travnik.
24 Q. Thank you for answering my questions this morning, sir.
25 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Any re-examination on the part
2 of the Defence?
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I will have a
4 couple of questions.
5 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ribo, you have told the Prosecution that the
7 Mujahedin moved around freely and that from time to time they would go to
8 the field once you noticed them on the lines facing the Serb forces,
9 possibly reconnoitering. Do you know maybe who ordered them to go to
10 those areas? Did anybody from the BiH army issue any orders to them at
12 A. According to the information that I had at the time and according
13 to what I could observe and notice, they acted absolutely independently.
14 They never consulted anybody prior to leaving. And once they were up
15 there, they did not behave as if there was anybody up there that could
16 issue orders or give assignments to them.
17 I remember a case that took place in the area towards Neokrnje.
18 When they came there there was some 30 or so of them. They were offered
19 to take one part of the line. At first they agreed. That was before
20 noon. And already in the afternoon, they abandoned that line and withdrew
21 towards Mehurici. And I remember well --
22 Q. Thank you very much. You have said that they very rarely took
23 part in combat. Did you ever see them engaged in combat together with the
24 members of the BiH army?
25 A. I personally never saw them in any combat.
1 Q. Thank you very much. Now, can you please tell me, when you were
2 talking about some local Muslims and particularly refugees from the
3 general area, for the reasons that you have explained to the
4 Honourable Chamber, approached the Mujahedin, and some of them joined
5 them. Were you ever in your position, in your capacity as a soldier, to
6 estimate the strength that they had at their disposal in the camp or in
7 the area that they were moving about?
8 A. Objectively speaking, I personally could not arrive at an estimate
9 of their real strength.
10 Q. You have also told us that you could see them passing by in a
11 Toyota, and there were about eight to ten of them standing in the vehicle.
12 Could you observe the kind of weapons that they had? With regard to the
13 weapons that the BiH army had at the time, can you tell us what kind of
14 weapons they had in terms of quality? Was -- was it better or worse?
15 A. From the time that they first appeared, they had at their disposal
16 much better arms, much modern arms than members of the army had in that
17 area. I personally noticed that they had automatic rifles. They had
18 Zoljas. Many of them had Zoljas and Osas.
19 Q. And my last question to you, Mr. Ribo, related to the way they
20 recruited locals. Did it happen that some of them married girls from your
21 area or from the refugee families, and this was done in a very strange
23 A. Yes. This was a very conspicuous thing, a very visible thing. A
24 certain number of very young girls, which is unusual, and it didn't have a
25 positive reaction with the locals. They abused the poverty of some of the
1 families, especially the families that lived in austerity or came from the
2 ranks of refugees.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. Ribo.
4 Mr. President, I don't have any further questions for this
6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have a couple
7 of questions with regard to what my learned friend asked him on the
9 Further cross-examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Ribo, on the map that the Prosecutor showed
11 to you you circled the village of Zagradje.
12 A. I circled the village of Luka. The settlement of Zagradje
13 remained beyond that circle. On that particular map one can't see the
14 whole of that settlement. I'm talking about Luka village.
15 Q. Are you familiar with Zagradje?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. It is in the municipality of Travnik, isn't it?
18 A. Yes it is.
19 Q. Let's clarify some things. Is the school in Zagradje or Luka?
20 A. It's in Luka.
21 Q. So the village of Zagradje doesn't have a school?
22 A. The school was built as the focal point for a number of
23 settlements among which Miletici, Skomorje, Zagradje, so on and so forth.
24 Q. This village Zagradje that belongs to the municipality of Travnik,
25 in the months of April, May, and the summer of 1993, did it have anything
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 to do with the 309th Brigade from Kakanj or the TO from Kakanj?
2 A. No. According to my information, this is not the case. I have
3 not heard of any such thing.
4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I think that it's not in the
5 transcript that it's the 309th Brigade from Kakanj. Could you please
6 correct that.
7 Q. You're a geography teacher. Could you please tell us or do you
8 know, for example, that there is also a Zagradje village in the
9 municipality of Kakanj?
10 A. Yes, I heard that there -- that it exists.
11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness now please be
12 shown document P564? I have a copy of the document here. If you permit
13 me, Mr. President, to save time, I would just like to present that to the
15 Q. Could you please look at this document, and this is an order of
16 the 7th Muslim Brigade, where a company from the 3rd Battalion of the
17 7th Brigade, which was located in Kakanj, is being sent to the school in
18 the village of Zagradje. Could you please look at item 5 of this order,
19 which states that the commander of the 3rd Battalion will inform the
20 commander of the 309th Brigade about the implementation of this order.
21 Have you read the document?
22 Would you agree with me, Mr. Ribo, that this order that you are
23 looking at does not refer to the village of Zagradje in the Travnik
24 municipality precisely for the reasons that I mentioned, and because of
25 your answer?
1 A. Yes. The contents indicate -- do not indicate that village that I
2 talked about is the village that is discussed here.
3 Q. Would you agree would me that this refers to the entire of
4 Zagradje in the municipality of Kakanj in view of item 5, which speaks
5 about the Kakanj Brigade and the Kakanj municipality TO?
6 A. Yes, that is clear here. It is very specifically stated here.
7 Q. Thank you very much.
8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we have no further
9 questions for this witness.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a few questions for you,
12 sir. These questions arise from what you have stated on the page 105 to
13 the Defence question. You responded that on a certain day, you saw the
14 arrival of some 30 Mujahedin, and they left in the afternoon. As far as
15 you can remember, can you tell us whether -- when was it? Which year and
16 which month did this happen?
17 A. I can say that this way in which they moved was something that
18 happened quite often. You could even say that this happened each month.
19 They were always going off somewhere. Where and what they were doing, I
20 don't know.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but only the day when you
22 saw them, you told us that you saw that some 30 of them had arrived. You
23 even indicated the place. When was it? On what date?
24 A. I will try to remember. I think that this was sometime at the
25 beginning of October 1992.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So it was in October 1992. How
2 many of you were there on the spot?
3 A. I personally was there in reconnaissance and in order to determine
4 certain targets for the howitzer, for our weapons to be fired at Serb
5 positions. So that is what I was doing up there. So I was working on
6 this specific task, and as I was doing that, I noticed that this group of
7 Mujahedin arrived, and that is how I learned that perhaps they were
8 supposed to stay there.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But when you were there and you
10 were reconnoitering, there were Serbs on the other side of the line. Were
11 there any other people? Was there a superior commander there, somebody
12 you reported to.
13 A. No. My commander was actually in Travnik. I was given the
14 assignment of going --
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you were on your own. And
16 you had the only -- you were the only person with authority on that spot?
17 A. I was with the howitzer platoon commander. Together with him I
18 was there that day.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What was the name of that
21 A. His name is Sead Zukic.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when this commander saw the
23 arrival of 30 persons, did he find that normal? Did he talk to them?
24 What happened?
25 A. We were surprised in a way, because they just happened to appear
1 there at that point. So we didn't have an opportunity of engaging into
2 any kind of conversation or communication with them.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So nobody talked to them. They
4 just arrived. You are contradicting yourself, because you said that they
5 were asked to do something, they did it, but they abandoned the position
6 in the afternoon. So there must have been some sort of a conversation
7 between them and yourselves.
8 A. No. My commander, Zukic, and I did not have any conversations
9 with them because we had our own specific assignment. We were there to
10 carry out this assignment. When we were supposed to go back to our
11 positions, in a conversation with the people of a unit from the settlement
12 of Gluha Bukovica, we learned that they had arrived and that it was a
13 question of whether they would stay or not, and then tomorrow, the next
14 day, we found out that that same day, late in the afternoon, they returned
15 on their own initiative.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You saw them with your own two
17 eyes or not? Did you see them? Did you physically see these people?
18 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Were they armed? Did they wear
21 A. Yes, they were armed. They were in uniforms. And also, all of
22 them had their traditional garb over their uniforms.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What was the distance between
24 yourselves and the Serbs?
25 A. The place where we were reconnoitering in relation to the Serbs
1 was about 1.5 to 2 kilometres as the crow flies.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you were observing the Serbs,
3 did you have binoculars?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the Serbs, did they have
7 A. They probably did. It could be assumed that they had the best and
8 the most modern equipment that was in the possession of the
9 Yugoslav People's Army.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Were the Serbs in the position
11 to observe these 30 individuals?
12 A. Well, I cannot say that, because the area where they had come to
13 was on a slope behind a wood. They were in that place. We happened to be
14 at an elevation from where we had a good view of the Serb lines ahead of
15 us, and they were, in a way, located at that point in time to our rear.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE SWART: To pursue your remarks on this subject, Witness, you
18 also mentioned some minutes ago something you saw in a place called
19 Neokrnje. Could you tell us what you wanted to tell us about that place?
20 A. I apologise. This place that you mentioned, I'm not sure what it
21 is. What place exactly is it? In which context is it being mentioned?
22 JUDGE SWART: Well, let me recall that you wanted to give an
23 example of the intervention of Mujahedin in a battle situation --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour. Microphone,
25 please, for Your Honour.
1 JUDGE SWART: I'm sorry. Some 20 minutes or ten minutes ago you
2 said -- you wanted to give an example of participating of Mujahedin in
3 combat situations, and you mentioned a place which I noted was Neokrnje
4 or something like that. As an example that they never --
5 A. Neokrnje. That's the place you mean. Yes, yes. That is a
6 police in this area that I spoke about where I was on that day, in
7 reconnaissance. If we look in front of us, that place is to our left, and
8 the places of the Serb forces are to the right, towards Teslic. At the
9 time, that place was controlled by the Serbs, and we were reconnoitering
10 in that sector.
11 JUDGE SWART: And why did you mention this place? What would
12 you -- were you intending to illustrate with your reference to this place?
13 A. That was an important strategic place for our units, because I can
14 say at the same time that that hill, that mountain of Neokrnje, was the
15 last land belonging to the Bosniaks in that section towards the
16 municipalities of Kotor Varos and Teslic. So normally it was in the
17 interest -- in our interest to hold onto that place because it had a
18 special strategic importance.
19 JUDGE SWART: And what did it have to do with the Mujahedin then?
20 A. I don't know. I just mentioned that at the time when we were in
21 reconnaissance, they happened to arrive there from somewhere else.
22 JUDGE SWART: Thank you. I would like to put you a very different
23 question on the events in Miletici. You spoke with Abu Haris, I
24 understand, and you spoke with Ramadan. You had negotiations. In these
25 talks, did they ever tell you or did they ever explain you why they went
1 to Miletici?
2 A. No. I didn't have the opportunity of talking to any of them about
3 that matter. I was never in a position to specifically talk about
4 the -- their motives for going to Miletici. At the negotiations
5 themselves, in a conversation I told Ramadan that we, the population, the
6 Bosniaks, if necessary, could deal with these citizens if we were
7 suspecting them of doing anything against the army. That was the only
8 dialogue that I had with them.
9 JUDGE SWART: Did you ever hear from other persons an explanation
10 for their -- their going to Miletici? I mean, not for the shooting. That
11 is evident. But the reason why they went to Miletici?
12 A. At one time in a conversation, some of them spoke about it as if
13 it was something that they did because of the events in Ahmici. This is
14 what I heard, but I didn't hear anything else more specific in relation to
15 this matter.
16 JUDGE SWART: Thank you very much, Witness.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Any questions? We have a few
18 minutes left.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't have any
20 additional questions.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Other Defence team.
22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution.
24 MR. MUNDIS: No.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Presiding Judge, please.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your testimony is now finished.
2 We would like to thank you for coming to The Hague to answer the questions
3 put to you by the Defence, the Prosecution, and the Judges. We wish you a
4 happy journey back home, and we also wish you success in your career. I'm
5 going to ask the usher to accompany you out of the courtroom.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to deal with the
9 admission of documents. The Defence had one document to tender.
10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we tender our
11 document marked on our list and presented to the witness under number 0586
12 into evidence because the witness recognised this document as coming from
13 his brigade. He recognised the person who signed this document. And from
14 personal experience, he notes that the facts mentioned in this document
15 reflect the situation in January 1993. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.
17 MR. MUNDIS: No -- no objection, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can you give us a
19 number for this document.
20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] This document will be admitted as
21 DH586, and the English version will be DH586/E.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Prosecution, any
23 documents to tender?
24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with all respect, we would
25 respectfully request that the two maps that were marked by the witness be
1 admitted into evidence.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have two maps. One map, a
3 general map, and one map which depicts Mehurici.
4 Mr. Registrar, can we have numbers?
5 Defence, any objections?
6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.
7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Mr. Registrar,
9 can we have two numbers?
10 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] The first number, the first map is
11 admitted as P933, and the other map depicting Mehurici will be P934.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 I'm turning towards the Defence to hear the schedule for tomorrow.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, as we said on Friday
15 and also yesterday, we cannot bring any witnesses for tomorrow. And for
16 Thursday we have two witnesses and another witness for Friday. The
17 Victims and Witnesses Unit did not manage until today -- actually, they
18 managed to get a visa for these three witnesses only today. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. In that case,
20 although we had scheduled a sitting for tomorrow, it has to be cancelled.
21 Any other issues to raise at this point in time?
22 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if the Defence is in a position to
23 inform us as to the witnesses for next week, we would certainly appreciate
24 that in light of the fact that we aren't sitting tomorrow, because if we
25 only find out on Thursday or Friday, we may have difficulties with respect
1 to next week's schedule. So if they are in a position to inform us whose
2 coming next week, we would certainly appreciate that.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we will provide our
4 learned colleagues with a list of witnesses for next week tomorrow.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. It is the time to
6 wrap up. I thank you, and I invite you to come back not tomorrow but the
7 day after tomorrow. Our sitting will start at 9.00 in the morning.
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of
10 November, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.