Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11106

1 Thursday, 4 November 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case number, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case Number IT-01-47-T, The

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the appearances

10 for the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

12 Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

13 Prosecution, Tecla Henry-Benjamin, Daryl Mundis, and Andres Vatter, the

14 case manager.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis.

16 Could we have appearances for Defence counsel who are all present this

17 time.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President, good

19 morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina

20 Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Muriel Cauvin, our

21 legal assistant.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence team.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

24 behalf of Amir Kubura, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, Rodney Dixon, and Nermin

25 Mulalic.

Page 11107

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to greet everyone

2 present on behalf of the Trial Chamber, members of the Prosecution,

3 Defence counsel for the accused, and everyone else in this courtroom.

4 We'll be hearing a witness scheduled for today, but before we do

5 so, we have to deal with the documents that are to be tendered into

6 evidence. There's one outstanding question in relation to these

7 documents. It concerns the expert report which was provided to us in the

8 English version. Does Defence Counsel have a B/C/S version of this

9 report?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, we apologise.

11 We did not include a B/C/S version of the expert report with the other

12 documents, but since the witness did draft the report in his own

13 language, we will now provide the B/C/S version to the Registry, the

14 B/C/S version of the report.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, any comments to

16 make with regard to the B/C/S version of the report?

17 MR. MUNDIS: No, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Trial Chamber

19 will have a look at the B/C/S version of the document.

20 Mr. Registrar, could we have definitive exhibit numbers for the

21 documents that are being tendered into evidence.

22 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We'll

23 start with the first documents that were dealt with at the hearing two

24 days ago. The first one will be DH1601, and the English version exists

25 which will be DH1601/E.

Page 11108

1 DH350 is admitted into evidence. The English version will be

2 DH350/E.

3 DH351 is admitted into evidence. The English version will be

4 DH351/E.

5 DH362; the English version will be DH362/E.

6 DH354; the English version DH354/E.

7 DH356; the English version will be DH356/E.

8 DH353; the English version will be DH353/E.

9 DH1598; the English version will be DH1598/E.

10 DH1590; the English version will be 1590/E.

11 DH378; the English version will be DH378/E.

12 DH358; we only have an English version, so the number will be

13 DH358/E [as interpreted].

14 DH510; the English version will be DH510/E.

15 DH1599; the English version will be 1599/E.

16 DH1398; the English version will be DH1398/E.

17 DH104 admitted into evidence; the English version will be

18 DH104/E.

19 DH1623; the English version will be DH1623/E.

20 DH1624; the English version will be DH1624/E.

21 DH1625; the English version will be DH1625/E.

22 DH1626; the English version will be DH1626/E.

23 And finally, 1627; the English version will be DH1627/E.

24 As far as the following annexes are concerned, DH357 will be

25 admitted into evidence, and the English version will be DH357/E.

Page 11109

1 DH358; the English version will be DH358/E.

2 DH359; the English version will be DH359/E.

3 DH363; the English version will be DH363/E.

4 DH1589; the English version will be DH1589/E.

5 We will now deal with the expert report. It will be DH344, and

6 the English version will have the number DH344/E.

7 And finally, there were a series of maps, 17 in total. The

8 number will be 345 for the entire series of maps, and each map will also

9 be marked with numbers 1 to 17.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, when looking at

11 the transcript, I get the impression that Exhibit 350 is missing. I

12 can't see it in the transcript.

13 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. If I

14 omitted it, I apologise.

15 DH350 is admitted into evidence, and the English version will be

16 DH350/E.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. If anyone notices

18 any omissions, we'll have time to put this right.

19 Turning to the Defence now, we have three witnesses scheduled for

20 the next two days. Could the Defence proceed in a manner that will

21 enable us to hear these three witnesses over the two-day period. We

22 don't want to have to make the third witness stay during the weekend.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since we had a

24 one-day break because we were not able to bring a witness here on that

25 day for the reasons that I have already mentioned, Defence counsel, when

Page 11110

1 preparing for the examination of this witness, tried to limit itself to

2 the most essential events so that although we intended to examine the

3 first witness for two hours, we will try to keep this to an hour and a

4 half at the most. And this should make it possible for all three

5 witnesses to be heard this week.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We'll call the

7 witness into the courtroom immediately.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I would first

10 like to make sure that you're receiving the interpretation of what I am

11 saying. If so, please say that you can hear me and that you understand

12 me.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called here as a

15 witness for the Defence. Before you take the solemn declaration, I'd be

16 grateful if you could tell me your first and last names, your date of

17 birth, and your place of birth.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Sejad Jusic. I was born

19 on the 16th of April 1968 in Jezerci Municipality.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Are you employed at

21 the moment? What is your professional status?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a policeman in the Travnik

23 police station.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993, what position

25 did you hold or what duties did you perform at the time?

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Page 11112

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a policeman at the time.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified

3 before an international or national court about the events that occurred

4 in your country in 1992 and 1993? Or is this the first time?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have OTP investigators

7 interviewed you or have you never been interviewed as a witness for the

8 purposes of an investigation?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't think anyone from the OTP

10 has interviewed me.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could you please

12 read out the text of the solemn declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.

16 Before I give the floor to Defence counsel who will be examining you, I

17 would like to provide you with some information. This is what I do

18 whenever a witness comes to testify. I do this in order to put the

19 witness at ease, but also to inform the witness of the procedure that

20 will be followed.

21 You have just taken a solemn declaration, and you have said that

22 you will speak the truth and nothing but the truth. As you are aware,

23 this implies that it is your duty not to lie. As a policeman, you know

24 that false testimony is an offence.

25 Secondly, when answering questions, you should be aware of the

Page 11113

1 fact that whatever you say cannot be used in a subsequent prosecution

2 against you. So you may feel quite free to answer all the questions. I

3 should also inform you that you will have to answer questions that will

4 be put you both by Defence counsel. They have told me that they should

5 be examining you for about an hour and a half. After that stage, you

6 will have to answer questions put to you by the Prosecution who are to

7 your right. As a rule, their cross-examination should take as long as

8 the examination of the Defence, about an hour and a half. The three

9 Judges sitting before you may also ask you questions at any point in time

10 if they feel it's necessary to clarify some of your answers, or if they

11 notice that there are some gaps in your testimony and it's important for

12 the Judges to fill them in. In such a case, we will ask you questions.

13 Once we have asked you questions, the parties have the right to ask you

14 additional questions in relation to the answers you provided to the

15 Judges' questions.

16 If you feel that a question is too complicated, ask the person

17 putting it to you to rephrase it. The questions put to you must be clear

18 to you, and the answers you provide us must also be clear because you

19 should be aware of the fact that we don't have any written records. This

20 is an oral procedure. As a policeman, you know what this means. So it

21 is your oral testimony that is important. And if necessary, your oral

22 testimony will also be supported by documents shown to you by the

23 Prosecution or the Defence. But at this point in time, we don't have any

24 written documents that concern the testimony you will be giving us. And

25 this is why your oral testimony is so important.

Page 11114

1 If you encounter any difficulties, inform us of the fact. We're

2 here to resolve any problems that may arise. Roughly speaking, this is

3 how we will be proceeding. The hearing will take a certain amount of

4 time, and it might be tiring for you, but rest assured we will be having

5 a number of breaks. Every hour and a half, we have half an hour break.

6 This should allow you to rest, and we have these breaks for technical

7 reasons, too. The breaks are not intended to enable the Judges to rest.

8 Without wasting any more time, I will give the floor to Defence

9 counsel now.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11 WITNESS: SEJAD JUSIC

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Jusic.

15 A. Good morning.

16 Q. In addition to the important information that the president of

17 the Trial Chamber has provided you with, I would also like to ask you to

18 wait a little before answering the questions that I put to you. Since we

19 speak the same language, it is necessary for my question to be

20 interpreted so that the Trial Chamber and everyone else in the courtroom

21 can understood the questions I put to you. So before answering my

22 questions, could you please pause briefly. Have you understood what I am

23 saying?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Mr. Jusic, where do you live at the moment?

Page 11115

1 A. I live in Jezerci in Travnik Municipality.

2 Q. Where did you live at the beginning of the war in April 1992?

3 A. I was also living in Jezerci at the time.

4 Q. You told the Trial Chamber that you were a policeman. Could you

5 tell us a little about your educational background. Which schools have

6 you completed, when, and where did you complete them?

7 A. I completed secondary school in Travnik. And in 1991, I finished

8 a course for policemen in Sarajevo.

9 Q. Which duties did you perform and for how long did you perform

10 these duties up until the beginning of the war?

11 A. As a policeman -- as a trainee, I started in Donji Vakuf, which

12 is near Travnik. That's where I was when the war broke out. At that

13 point I moved to Travnik.

14 Q. Before the war, did you serve in the army? And if so, which army

15 did you serve in and were you conferred a rank of any kind?

16 A. I served in the JNA, and I didn't have a rank of any kind.

17 Q. Could you please tell me, since you have already said that in the

18 course of 1992 and 1993 you were a policeman, where did you work as a

19 policeman?

20 A. When I returned from Donji Vakuf to Travnik, I worked there

21 briefly. And then because it was impossible to go from Jezerci to work

22 in Travnik, they moved me to a police station, a police outpost in

23 Mehurici.

24 Q. Could you please tell me, as a policeman working in the Mehurici

25 police outpost, were you a member of the civilian or of the military

Page 11116

1 police force?

2 A. I was a member of the civilian police. The M-U-P, the MUP.

3 Q. Mr. Jusic, who was your superior? Who was your boss, or rather,

4 what was the chain of command within the civilian police? What sort of

5 hierarchy existed there?

6 A. The Travnik police station had its own chief and its own

7 commander. In fact, the public security station. I made a slight error.

8 The public security station had to report to the CSB, the Security

9 Services Centre in Zenica.

10 Q. You can speak a little faster. You just need to pause when you

11 have finished your answer.

12 A. Very well. So they were subordinated to the CSB in Travnik.

13 Q. At any time in the course of the war did the BH Army -- was the

14 BH Army in charge of the entire civilian police force?

15 A. No. Sometimes part of the police force were subordinated to the

16 army, but I'm not aware of this being the case for the entire police

17 force.

18 Q. Was your police outpost, or rather did some members from your

19 police outpost at any time in 1992 or 1993, were they at any time

20 subordinated to some BH Army unit? And if that was the case, could you

21 tell us when this occurred.

22 A. In 1993, for about 40 or 45 days, we were subordinated, but I

23 can't remember the month. I think it was towards the end of the summer.

24 Q. At the end of those 40 or 45 days in the summer of 1993, where

25 did the police return to?

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Page 11118

1 A. Well, they returned to their usual duties.

2 Q. What was the main task of the civilian police at that time? And

3 before?

4 A. Well, protecting public order, crime prevention, et cetera.

5 Q. Within the civilian police, which organ was responsible for

6 preparing criminal reports for the competent judicial bodies?

7 A. Well, it was the crime police who worked in Travnik. In Mehurici

8 we didn't have such a force, but we provided them with the information

9 that we had.

10 Q. The police outpost in Mehurici, how many professional policemen

11 did this outpost have in 1993?

12 A. I was the only professional policeman, and I started working in

13 1992.

14 Q. Mr. Jusic, apart from yourself in the police station, were there

15 any other policemen? If so, were these active-duty policemen or were

16 they reserve policemen?

17 A. They were all from the reserve police force.

18 Q. How many men did you have in the reserve police force?

19 A. I think we had about 30 men.

20 Q. Tell me, Mr. Jusic, if you can remember: What sort of

21 educational background did the people who were called to the reserve

22 police force have? And had they obtained at any earlier date any kind of

23 experience in police work?

24 A. I knew most of them. They were neighbours of mine. They weren't

25 very educated, and I don't think that they had ever been trained as

Page 11119

1 policemen.

2 Q. Mr. Jusic, why didn't you call people who had professional

3 experience as a policeman to the reserve police force?

4 A. I didn't decide about such things, but at the time there were no

5 such men in the municipality.

6 Q. Mr. Jusic, in the area you performed your duties, were there any

7 BH Army formations?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did those formations also have formations involved in policing?

10 In other words, did they have a military police unit?

11 A. Yes. There was a military police presence in that area covered

12 by the army.

13 Q. Can you tell me what kind of relationship there was in 1993

14 between you and members of the military police. Were there any issues on

15 which you sought to work together?

16 A. There were jobs that we did jointly.

17 Q. In view of your personal skills and knowledge and the jobs that

18 you performed together, can you estimate whether the military policemen

19 of the army possessed the necessary professional skills for the duties

20 they had to perform at the time?

21 A. I don't believe they did.

22 Q. Mr. Jusic, what area was covered by your police outpost?

23 A. The area around Mehurici, which includes several villages.

24 Q. How simple was it to control that area; and if there were any

25 problems, why did they exist?

Page 11120

1 A. At the time, the Mehurici police outpost did not have any

2 vehicles. The villages were rather scattered over the territory. The

3 roads were bad.

4 Q. Tell me, did those features of the terrain and the level of your

5 own equipment influence your ability to perform your duties?

6 A. They did, as did the general condition.

7 Q. Now I want to ask you a question that you might be able to answer

8 as a policeman. Before the war, during the war, and generally speaking,

9 what agencies deal with the presence and movement of foreigners in a

10 country?

11 A. The civilian police always had a body in charge of foreign

12 nationals.

13 Q. In which particular body of the police did such agencies work?

14 A. I believe that something like that existed within the CSB, the

15 centre of security services.

16 Q. Did you in your police station have any duty to monitor, record,

17 or report to your superior authorities any presence or movement of

18 foreign nationals in your area?

19 A. We did. We noticed that some foreign nationals were appearing,

20 and we wrote that in our reports to the police station in Travnik.

21 Q. You have already told me about the manpower of your police

22 station. Tell me now about the level of your equipment. What kind of

23 weapons did the civilian police dispose of in 1993?

24 A. Most of us had rifles; that is, long barrels, as we call them.

25 But none were issued by the service, so if you wanted to have one, you

Page 11121

1 had to bring it yourself.

2 Q. You just said that everybody who had to be mobilised into the

3 police had to bring their own rifle. Where did people get rifles?

4 A. I suppose they bought them on the black market.

5 Q. Responding to my previous question, you said you had noticed some

6 foreign nationals in your area, that you had drawn up appropriate

7 official notes that you forwarded to the public security station in

8 Travnik. Tell me, when did you notice those foreigners and who were

9 they?

10 A. It was, I believe, in late 1992. They were from Arabic

11 countries, judging by their appearance and clothing.

12 Q. You said "judging by their appearance." What does that mean?

13 What kind of clothes did they wear?

14 A. They wore some kind of short slacks or trousers and some capes

15 that I used to see on television. Or cloaks.

16 Q. You graduated from a secondary school, and after that went

17 through a police training course. Tell me, did you know anything before

18 the war about the mujahedin?

19 A. No, I didn't.

20 Q. At that time in the community where you lived, were there stories

21 circulating? Was there any information about those people, who they

22 were, where they were located? Did your community in Travnik have any

23 knowledge about those people?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Generally speaking, since up to the elections of 1990, the

Page 11122

1 prevailing system in Bosnia and Herzegovina did not look kindly upon

2 nationalistic tendencies or aspirations. Do you know anything about the

3 views of the then authorities about expressions of nationalism,

4 nationalistic opinions, et cetera?

5 A. Well, it was a crime. It was forbidden.

6 Q. Did that attitude change in any way after the 1990 elections?

7 And if it did, how did it change, if you know anything about it?

8 A. Yes, there was a change. Some parties were established then that

9 displayed nationalist tendencies and even outbursts.

10 Q. Did you notice such outbursts? Did they come to your attention?

11 And do you remember how they affected your immediate environment?

12 A. I remember, for instance, the Serbian Radical Party.

13 Q. Mr. Jusic, you lived in Jezerci, and you worked in Mehurici. And

14 you noticed some foreigners there from Afro-Asian countries. Do you know

15 why they were coming to your area, and did you give any thought at all to

16 the reasons that could make your area interesting to those foreigners?

17 A. I didn't give it any particular thought then.

18 Q. In late 1992 when you became aware of their presence, did you

19 know where they lived, where they were accommodated?

20 A. I know for a while they were in the school building in Mehurici.

21 Later, when some sort of detachment of the BH Army was formed, they were

22 chased out of there. In any case, they were no longer in that

23 schoolhouse.

24 Q. Do you know, Mr. Jusic, where did they go from there?

25 A. They went to a place called Poljanice, to the family estate of

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Page 11124

1 the Safic family where they set up some sort of camp.

2 Q. Did you as a policeman became aware that this camp was guarded in

3 some way, or was access to the camp free?

4 A. The camp was guarded, and as far as I know, access was prohibited

5 to everyone but their own members, not even the police could enter.

6 Q. To what extent were you able to gather information about those

7 foreigners? Did you know their number, their origin, things like that?

8 A. At the outset when they had just begun arriving, we tried to

9 inspect the identity papers of some of them. We couldn't speak to them

10 because of the language barrier. They would tell us their names, but we

11 were not able to see their papers. And as far as we were able to

12 understand, they had none.

13 Later, they were constantly moving around. You see them today;

14 you don't see them any more tomorrow. It was very difficult to track

15 their movement.

16 Q. As a policeman, did you notice that in a certain way there was a

17 rapprochement between them and the local population, or did they stay

18 closed in their own camp? Did they keep to themselves?

19 A. In a way, there was a rapprochement with them and the local

20 population because they donated money and some packages to people. They

21 also provided some young men with arms and took them to their quarters.

22 They got married, some of them, to local girls, and thus established

23 bonds with the local families.

24 Q. In your opinion, what was their influence, especially among the

25 refugees and the other local population? Did some people view them with

Page 11125

1 sympathy, others as cause for concern? Can you tell us something about

2 that?

3 A. There were people who were against their presence. But let me

4 tell you, there were many refugees there who didn't have homes in their

5 area. And these people helped them. Somebody who receives money and

6 food and help from you is bound to have some sympathy for you.

7 Q. Did you notice how those men were armed? In other words, what

8 kind of weapons did they give to those who joined them?

9 A. They were well armed. They had a large number of vehicles. And

10 whoever joined them also received weapons. And moreover, all of those

11 who joined them had their families taken care of as well by those men.

12 Such families received a monthly allowance, assistance.

13 Q. Apart from your job of maintaining public law and order, or

14 rather in the course of performing your duties, did you become aware of

15 any incidents involving or caused by these men, these foreigners, and did

16 you try to investigate such incidents?

17 A. There was a number of such situations. There were a number of

18 catering establishments where alcohol was served. They would enter such

19 establishments and break everything. Furthermore, problems occurred when

20 they would come across a girl who was not dressed according to their code

21 or their idea of propriety. But they didn't want to discuss it with us.

22 We noted this in certain official notes. They would go back to their

23 camp, and that was it.

24 Q. Did you attempt to enter the camp, investigate those persons, and

25 elucidate what really happened?

Page 11126

1 A. No, we were not.

2 Q. Did you, policemen, have the possibility to use force and attack

3 that camp in order to enforce the law and perform your basic duties by

4 use of force?

5 A. Well, at the time, it wasn't possible. They outnumbered us, and

6 they were better equipped, better armed. At that time, you tried to

7 avoid conflict and incidents.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the last part of

9 the answer.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Apart from the fact that you didn't have enough manpower -- could

12 you please repeat your answer to the previous question because the

13 interpreters didn't hear all of it. Please speak up if you can.

14 You said it was not possible for you to attack them. They were better

15 armed, better equipped, and you were trying generally to avoid conflict.

16 What else did you say?

17 A. We had previous police reports about policemen who had already

18 been wounded or hurt in such incidents, and our commanders insisted that

19 we should avoid such conflicts and keep our people safe. It was from the

20 relay in Vlasic that we received such reports.

21 Q. In view of the overall situation and the sympathy a certain part

22 of the local population had toward -- with them, would a decision to

23 enter into a conflict with these men or attack them be something that a

24 local police station could take? Or would it require superior authority?

25 A. We couldn't do anything on our own. That's certain. That had to

Page 11127

1 be resolved at some higher level.

2 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you about a different subject, Mr.

3 Jusic. In the area where your police station was active -- in fact, in

4 this entire area from Travnik to Zenica, were there other police stations

5 and where were they located?

6 A. There was a police station in Han Bila, another in Mosor, and I

7 don't know exactly the date but I believe there was a police station at

8 Ovnak. That was a separate police station that had been established by

9 our former Croat colleagues who had previously worked together with us.

10 But I don't know the exact date when this separate police station was set

11 up.

12 Q. Did you notice in 1992-1993 that in addition to army units, some

13 other military units were present in the area; and if so, which?

14 A. There were units of the HOS, the Croatian armed forces, the HVO,

15 the Croatian Defence Council.

16 Q. Was there a time when you became aware of a certain conduct by

17 certain military units that affected the personal safety of people and

18 the public law and order in your area?

19 A. Situations were frequent when somebody would go to Travnik or

20 Zenica only to be stopped by men who were told to wear insignia of the

21 HVO or HOS, and the person who would report the incident would say that

22 these military men would take away their money and valuables and such.

23 Q. Tell me, Mr. Jusic, which roads were available at all to go to

24 Travnik, Zenica, or Vitez from the Biljanska Dolina, Bila Valley?

25 A. Those were roads through Maline and Guca Gora up -- in Guca Gora,

Page 11128

1 there was the HVO road. From Bila to Travnik and Vitez, there was also

2 an HVO checkpoint. And towards Zenica, the road held two checkpoints,

3 both of the HVO and the Croatian civilian police.

4 Q. Just one thing.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 19, line 3, it says "men who

6 said." What it should say is "men who wore." I would like this

7 corrected.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The counsel did not quite understand what is

9 actually written in the record.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Let me continue: You said there were checkpoints on those roads

12 held by the HVO or the Croatian civilian police. Tell me, did you

13 personally as a policeman have such experience in connection with this

14 mistreatment of people or people being stopped at checkpoints held by the

15 HVO?

16 A. I don't know the exact date, but once as a policeman on duty I

17 went out in the field to intervene somewhere, and I was stopped in Cukle

18 by some Croats. I don't know to which exact unit they belonged. They

19 stopped me, together with four or five of my men, also Muslims. I was

20 wearing a police uniform, and I had heard about an incident in a village

21 overlooking Cukle. So I went out to investigate. I was stopped and

22 detained for four or five hours. I was disarmed. My sidearm, my pistol,

23 and the rifle were taken away from me and never returned.

24 Q. Do you know whether the civilian police or the army, if you know,

25 made any attempts to iron out such clashes, and what was the reaction of

Page 11129

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Page 11130

1 the HVO after such attempts?

2 A. I know that from the Travnik -- from the public security station,

3 our commanders insisted that there must be no conflict between Muslims

4 and Croats in that area. We had to report everything to them rather than

5 allow ourselves to be involved in an incident of that kind.

6 Q. Let me question you now, Mr. Jusic, about your knowledge of

7 certain specific events. Where were you on the 24th of April 1993? Do

8 you remember that date?

9 A. I do. I was in Mehurici. On that day, I don't remember whether

10 I was on duty or I was off duty in Mehurici, but at one point I noticed

11 that those men, those mujahedin led through Mehurici some people from

12 Miletici, both Muslim and Croat by ethnicity, and took them away in the

13 direction of the Poljanice camp. And most of us who were standing there

14 had no idea what was going on.

15 Q. Tell me, was there a time when you realised that the army command

16 located there was seeking to resolve this problem?

17 A. You mean the problem that occurred in Miletici?

18 Q. Yes. The fact that some Bosniak Muslims and Croats were taken

19 away from Miletici. Did you realise that the command of the battalion

20 that was based there was trying to find a way to free these people, or

21 you were not involved in that at all?

22 A. I was not involved at all, but I knew the command was in the

23 schoolhouse that was close by, and I realised that they were all agog.

24 Q. Did you ever find out that these people had been released from

25 Poljanice?

Page 11131

1 A. Yes. I did find out about that, but I don't know the dates. I

2 know that after a certain period of time, they were taken away by

3 UNPROFOR to Novo Bila, I think, and there were some sort of joint HVO and

4 army commission that went to that site. I think the civilian police was

5 involved as well.

6 Q. Did you at any point in time take over a task that related to the

7 remaining population in the village of Miletici?

8 A. I remember that afterwards, an old woman and her husband remained

9 in Miletici. I can't remember her name now. Our task was to visit that

10 family every day on a number of occasions to see whether there were any

11 problems, to speak to them, and this is what we did. I think the man's

12 name was Zdravko, and I don't know what his wife's name was.

13 Q. The policemen who visited that family and were concerned with

14 their security, did they ever tell you about the attitude of their Muslim

15 neighbours in relation to those people who had remained in the village?

16 A. Well, I myself often visited that family up there --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to point out to

18 the interpreters that we are not receiving any interpretation.

19 Please continue now.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. You started answering my question. You said that "I often

22 visited that family myself." You didn't finish your answer.

23 A. I visited the family. I would sit with them, speak with them.

24 They said that their neighbours from Miletici, Muslims, would come, ask

25 them about what they ate, how they lived. And they said that the Muslims

Page 11132

1 would bring them food.

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Jusic, could you please tell me where you were on

3 the 8th of June and how long had you been where you were on the 8th of

4 June?

5 A. On the 8th of June, I was at home in Jezerci. I don't know the

6 exact dates, but the situation was such that -- well, first I'd have to

7 tell you about the villages and how they were mixed Muslim-Croat

8 villages. The situation was such that it was not possible to go out of

9 the village for a few days. There were -- there was fire that had been

10 opened on our village. It wasn't safe to go out. So I think that I

11 stayed at home for two or three days. I wasn't able to go to work.

12 Q. Who was attacking your village? Or rather, who was attacking

13 that road that you used to get to work?

14 A. Well, it's difficult to say where the shooting was coming from,

15 but I think it was from the place called Balte. I think that that's

16 where they were firing from. It's the road above the village of Zelce

17 [phoen].

18 Q. Since you were in the village of Jezerci, did you notice that the

19 BH Army at the time, before the 8th of June, was itself launching attacks

20 against HVO positions?

21 A. Well, the army wasn't present in the village of Jezerci at the

22 time. There were some old people with old hunting rifles.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up a bit.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not aware of anything like

25 that.

Page 11133

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Could you tell me, when you were in the village and during the

3 period that you weren't able to go to work, as you said, could you find

4 out that there were any attacks on other Muslim villages in the Bila

5 Valley?

6 Could you please speak up because the interpreters can't hear

7 you, and it makes it difficult for them to do their work.

8 Tell me, did you find out about any attacks on villages where the

9 Muslim population was in the majority in the Bila Valley? If so, could

10 you tell me which villages were attacked and when.

11 A. I heard about the place called Ricice. Then there was Velika

12 Bukovica. I also heard that Velika Bukovica was attacked, and that some

13 people, some women were taken away to Busovaca. I heard that people from

14 Cukle were not able to move around. They couldn't leave their village.

15 And before the 8th, a few shells fell on my village, on Jezerci. I don't

16 know the exact date.

17 Q. At the time, did you have a Motorola or some sort of

18 communications equipment that you could use to obtain such information?

19 A. Well, no. But at night, someone would come to the village and

20 inform us. An army member would come home to have a bath and then

21 provide us with information. That's how I found out about such things.

22 At the time, there was no electricity in my village.

23 Q. If I have understood you correctly, on the 8th of June 1993, you

24 were also in Jezerci.

25 A. Yes.

Page 11134

1 Q. When did you go to work in the village of Mehurici for the first

2 time?

3 A. Well, a day or two later. I don't know when exactly. Our

4 commander at the time, he was the commander of the station. He'd been

5 cut off. He was in Travnik. He couldn't go there. And a day or two

6 later, we met, the policemen met in Mehurici. We set off to work again

7 until someone came from Travnik and appointed me as a commander up there

8 in Mehurici.

9 Q. If I have understood you correctly, a few days after these events

10 you were appointed as commander of that police station. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, it is.

12 Q. When you went there two or three days later, what did you find

13 out? Did you notice that any people had been brought to Mehurici?

14 A. Well, yes, we found out that there were quite a lot of civilians

15 in the Mehurici primary school. They were in the sports gym. They were

16 of -- and there were some military-able men there. And the army told us

17 that we should guard these men. Our task was to guard these men to make

18 sure that nothing happened. The people kept in the school were of

19 Croatian nationality.

20 Q. Did you take over the task that your superiors from Travnik

21 assigned you?

22 A. Well, yes.

23 Q. Mr. Jusic, did you then find out why these civilians had been

24 taken to Mehurici and placed in the primary school?

25 A. This is my opinion, and this is what I heard from army members.

Page 11135

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Page 11136

1 They were there in the school for security reasons. Apparently, there

2 were mujahedin who were moving around the villages, and they could have

3 done something to them.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My colleagues have just pointed

5 out that in English and French -- my question was "brought to Mehurici

6 and placed in the primary school." In French, it says "imprisoned in the

7 primary school." So I just wanted to point out that there was a

8 difference in translation. Thank you.

9 Q. Tell me, who took care -- who was concerned with the

10 accommodation of the people in the primary school and who was responsible

11 for their food?

12 A. The civilian protection.

13 Q. Why were these people placed in the gym in the primary school?

14 A. Well, there was no better place for them at the time. There was

15 no better accommodation.

16 Q. At the time, was there a motel of some sort or a hotel in the

17 village of Mehurici? Or some other facility that could have been used to

18 provide a certain number of people, two or three hundred people, with

19 accommodation? That's the number of people who had been placed in the

20 primary school.

21 A. Well, the gym was the largest place. There wasn't a hotel at the

22 time. That in my opinion was the only place available.

23 Q. Mr. Jusic, tell me, how many policemen were involved in providing

24 them with security?

25 A. Well, at the time, taking care of them was our priority. We

Page 11137

1 weren't really involved in any other duties.

2 Q. While performing those duties, while taking care of the safety of

3 the people in the primary school, did you hear about anyone being treated

4 inappropriately? Did you hear about anyone being maltreated? And if so,

5 did you take any measures?

6 A. The women, children, and old people were placed in the school.

7 If they wanted to go out, they could go out and light up a cigarette.

8 Equipment, money, all their valuables, these are items they kept with

9 them. At the time, there wasn't much of a selection, but it was possible

10 for one of us to go and buy something for them. But no one told me about

11 any kind of maltreatment or any kind of problems in the school. There

12 was someone called (redacted), and if any of them needed something, they

13 would address her, and what could be done would be done. We all ate the

14 same food.

15 Q. Since a minute ago you said that the mujahedin were in Savici

16 Kuca in the Poljanice village, could you tell me whether your policemen

17 ever informed you about some mujahedin trying to enter the gym; and if

18 so, what happened on that occasion.

19 A. Well, on one occasion, I don't know whether there was just one

20 mujahedin or a number of them, they wanted to enter the gym. The

21 policemen didn't let them enter. Weapons were drawn, but they didn't get

22 in. I don't know what they wanted.

23 Q. At any point in time, were you informed about a soldier behaving

24 in an inappropriate way? And if so, do you know what measures were taken

25 against such a soldier?

Page 11138

1 A. Yes, I do remember such a thing. I remember that the brother of

2 one of the soldiers died in the conflict with the Croats, and there was

3 one prisoner whom we would take to be bandaged every day, and one soldier

4 hit him while he was being taken away to be bandaged. But as far as I

5 can remember, I think that the commander imprisoned him for 15 days. I

6 can't remember exactly. But I know that the military police took him

7 away.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up. The

9 interpreter can barely hear.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Since we have the word "prisoner" here, could you tell us whether

12 this was a person in a gym or were these HVO members who were in the

13 other rooms?

14 A. I'm talking about military-able men in other rooms. A wounded

15 HVO soldier would go to be bandaged every day. I don't know his exact

16 name. On that occasion, an army member hit him when he was on his way to

17 the clinic.

18 Q. Very well. You said that the military police took him away, and

19 that he was punished. This has been recorded.

20 A. Yes, as far as I can remember, yes.

21 Q. Can you please tell me whether you were aware of the fact that

22 during that 15-day period while they were there, were you aware of the

23 fact that any representatives of humanitarian organisations came, members

24 of the Red Cross or European Union observers? Did any such people appear

25 there?

Page 11139

1 A. I know that Red Cross representatives came, and I think that

2 European observers also came. They didn't have any particular objections

3 to make. They saw what the situation was like. They realised that we

4 couldn't do anything better.

5 Q. A while ago you said that they kept their personal possessions.

6 What sort of possessions did these civilians have, and the HVO members

7 who were detained in another area?

8 A. When the civilian police started taking care of them in order to

9 prevent anything happening to them, they had some money, some bags on

10 them at the time. No one touched that. As for the military-able men,

11 they didn't really have many possessions, but they had money that they

12 had in their pockets, et cetera.

13 Q. When they left, did they leave with all these possessions, all

14 these things?

15 A. Yes, they did.

16 Q. Mr. Jusic, please tell me, while they were there until the time

17 they left with UNHCR or with someone else, I don't know with whom, during

18 that entire period, what was the situation like in the Bila Valley? Was

19 there any combat going on or had peace been fully established by that

20 time?

21 A. Well, I think that there was combat action going on at the time,

22 not really in the vicinity of Mehurici, but a little further away in the

23 direction of Nova Bila.

24 Q. As the police force in such conditions were you able to take

25 those people to their village and guarantee their safety?

Page 11140

1 A. Well, no, we weren't really secure at the time. So this is not

2 something we could have guaranteed for these people.

3 Q. Tell me, what happened to the people for whom you were providing

4 security? Can you tell us where they went?

5 A. The civilians were exchanged. I don't know after how many days

6 exactly. And the military-able men, when it was possible to safely take

7 them to Zenica, to the penal and correctional facility, the KP Dom, they

8 were all taken there. But it was risky to take them via Ovnak. But as

9 soon as we had the opportunity to take them to Zenica without risking

10 anything, they were taken there to the KP Dom.

11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness is mumbling

12 and it's difficult to understand.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Mr. Jusic, did you ever find out that some of the men -- please,

15 could you tell us whether you were ever informed that some of the men who

16 were taken from Maline to Mehurici were taken away somewhere, and did you

17 find out if that were the case who took them away?

18 A. Well, later, when the people were going to Mehurici under

19 military police escort, it came to light that the mujahedin had singled

20 out some people up in Poljanice, and no one knew where they were after

21 the mujahedin had separated them. That's what people would say.

22 Q. Given the duties you had, the duties that you have already

23 mentioned, did you compile an official record, and did you inform your

24 officers, your superiors in Travnik about this event?

25 A. Well, we did make a record. This information hadn't been

Page 11141

1 verified, but a record was made and forwarded as far as I can remember.

2 It's possible that the mujahedin took some people out of the column, and

3 nothing was known about the people after this had been done.

4 Q. With regard to this event, were you able to go to the mujahedin

5 camp after this event in order to obtain additional information about

6 what had actually happened?

7 A. No. We were not able to enter the camp.

8 Q. In response to a question I have already put to you, you said

9 that at some time in the summer, you were resubordinated to the BH Army.

10 To which brigade were you resubordinated?

11 A. I was resubordinated to the 306th Brigade.

12 Q. Were you resubordinated before or after your Croatian neighbours

13 had left for an exchange?

14 A. This happened afterwards, after the exchange.

15 Q. How long did you have these combat assignments?

16 A. For about 45 days.

17 Q. Mr. Jusic, since you have told us that your duties involved

18 attempting to provide security for people and preserve public order, tell

19 me: Did you notice property being looted from abandoned Croat houses?

20 And if so, did you take any measures?

21 A. Houses abandoned by Croatian neighbours were frequently looted.

22 Some of them were torched. Some people set fire to them. We dealt with

23 these cases. But it was difficult at the time to discover who the

24 perpetrators were because first of all there were a lot of refugees in

25 our area. These were people whom we did not know. The troops were also

Page 11142

1 present. And if we found any items and confiscated them, we didn't know

2 to whom these items belonged. So a lot of items that the Mehurici police

3 station confiscated couldn't be returned. There was no one to return to

4 them. So these items were on the whole lost. But we were engaged for

5 about 45 days. We didn't do -- we didn't perform any other duties. We

6 were at the line.

7 Q. If I've understood you correctly, you said that even when you

8 found property that had been looted, you weren't able to establish the

9 identity of the perpetrators. Why not?

10 A. Well, if some of my policemen were near such houses and knew who

11 the owner was, then we would know who the injured party was. But

12 frequently, we did not know who the owner was.

13 Q. You also said that you kept those items in the police

14 administration in warehouses of some kind. Tell me, why didn't you

15 return that property to the owners of the houses when you knew who the

16 owners were? And could you protect such houses from being looted again?

17 A. We kept these items in the police station, but if we had returned

18 them to the houses, someone would have probably taken them again because

19 the area was a large area, and it was not possible for the police to

20 control the situation.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Page 31, line 18, it was

22 interpreted as my question whether it was possible to identify the

23 perpetrators. And my question was actually whether it was possible to

24 identify those who suffered damage or loss. And the witness answered

25 appropriately. So I would like this to be corrected.

Page 11143

1 Q. Mr. Jusic, since in this area where you guarded those

2 things -- you had this area where you kept things in safekeeping. Did it

3 happen in 1993 that some of the injured parties actually came looking for

4 their things, wanted them back?

5 A. No. In 1993, we did not have any such case.

6 Q. Mr. Jusic, in Mehurici or around that area, did you have a

7 possibility of finding a safe house, a storage place where these items

8 could be kept safe from damage, safe from wear and tear, weather, et

9 cetera?

10 A. No, we didn't. We only had two rooms for the police.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Jusic.

12 Thank you, Mr. President. I have no further questions for this witness.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You have concluded

14 your examination-in-chief in good time, as you said you would.

15 It's half past 10.00. We will adjourn now and resume at 11.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll now give the floor to the

19 Prosecution so they can conduct their cross-examination of the witness.

20 MS. BENJAMIN: Good afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon to

21 everyone and to Mr. Jusic.

22 Cross-examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

23 Q. My name is Tecla Henry-Benjamin, and I'm a representative of the

24 Prosecution in this matter. As indicated by the President of the Trial

25 Chamber, I'm going to ask you a few questions. However, if you feel at

Page 11144

1 any point in time you have not understood the question or you want me to

2 repeat something, please feel free to interrupt me and I will try to

3 oblige.

4 MS. BENJAMIN: Your Honour, maybe we could indicate on the record

5 that the Defence for Mr. Kubura has no questions.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I forgot to ask the other

7 Defence team whether they had any questions to put to the witness. I

8 apologise. I forgot to put this question to you. But you are at some

9 distance from the Chamber.

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this

11 witness, Mr. President.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 Ms. Benjamin, thank you for the remark you made. You may

14 proceed.

15 MS. BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Mr. Jusic, at the beginning of your examination-in-chief, you

17 outlined for the Trial Chamber your role as commander of the Mehurici

18 police force at the time, and your duties. Now, could you state clearly

19 for us when you actually took up the duty as commander of the police

20 station in Mehurici.

21 A. I don't know the exact date, but it was after the outbreak of the

22 conflict between the Muslims or the BH Army on the one hand and the

23 Croats on the other hand. A couple of days after the outbreak.

24 Q. So would I be correct in saying that previous to that, which

25 would be probably around the 10th of June or thereabouts, previous to

Page 11145

1 that you worked as an ordinary policeman in an outpost in Mehurici? Am I

2 correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, your role as an ordinary policeman in the outpost in

5 Mehurici and when you became a commander, your role and your duties

6 remained basically the same. Am I correct?

7 A. Correct, with the proviso that I conveyed to the other policemen

8 the orders I was receiving from Travnik.

9 Q. Very well.

10 MS. BENJAMIN: Mr. President, with your leave, could the witness

11 be shown Exhibit P204, please.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. P204.

13 MS. BENJAMIN:

14 Q. And have you had a chance to look at the document?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The document basically outlines -- it has to do with your

17 resubordination to the 306th Brigade. But correct me if I'm wrong, it

18 basically outlines the duties and the functions of the MUP. Am I

19 correct?

20 A. I received my orders from the police administration in Travnik,

21 and they must have agreed this prior to that on a higher level. They

22 must have previously agreed this should be like this.

23 Q. And I'm in total agreement with you, because you see, it clearly

24 says -- it identifies the duties quite clearly. It says that you are to

25 -- for instance, number 3, secure vacated settlements by daily patrols,

Page 11146

1 prevent torching and looting, and use mobile checkpoints to control minor

2 roads, secure captured persons. And number 7 in particular, individual

3 movement by armed persons must be stopped, and these persons disarmed and

4 registered.

5 Did you see that forming part of your duty, to protect public

6 order and in crime prevention? Did you see that as part of your duty,

7 number 7 in particular?

8 A. Well, yes, it was approximately.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Benjamin.

11 Witness, this document the Prosecution is showing to you, and I

12 can see that it was addressed to the MUP in Mehurici because under number

13 7, it says MUP Mehurici. Were you yourself familiar with this document?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I probably was.

15 MS. BENJAMIN:

16 Q. In response to my learned friend, you indicated that there came a

17 time when you saw the arrival of foreigners into the area of Mehurici.

18 Now, am I correct? Because you'll have to answer for the record.

19 A. Yes, that's correct.

20 Q. Thank you. Could you for the benefit of the Trial Chamber give

21 us an estimate of the population of Mehurici in the period we're talking

22 about, January 1993 to 1994 or thereabouts. Could you give us an idea of

23 what the population of Mehurici was like.

24 A. Around 10.000, I believe more than 10.000.

25 Q. And would you be able to tell us around how many of these

Page 11147

1 foreigners you would have noticed at that time in Mehurici?

2 A. At what time precisely? In 1993? 1994? Or earlier?

3 Q. I speak of when you started seeing them, when they began

4 emerging. And if they increased, could you tell us.

5 A. They didn't arrive all at once. They arrived gradually. At the

6 beginning, there was one or two, then more, until their number eventually

7 increased. But it was the police who was supposed to establish their

8 number.

9 Q. I am aware that the police were supposed to establish their

10 number. And which police do you mean when you say "the police were

11 supposed to establish their number"?

12 A. I meant the civilian police. I meant the MUP, the Ministry of

13 the Interior.

14 Q. Weren't you a part of the MUP?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So it's by virtue of your being a part of the MUP and later on

17 being a commander of the Mehurici police station where basically the

18 great numbers of the foreigners were seen. It's in that context that I

19 ask the question. Could you give us an idea, an estimate of how many of

20 these people were in the area. Let's put it late 1992 ending up in 1994.

21 How many people, would you say?

22 A. Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you the number. How shall I put

23 it? All of them looked the same to me. I couldn't tell you how many

24 there were.

25 Q. You knew for a fact -- and you indicated to us that there were

Page 11148

1 about 10.000 inhabitants of Mehurici. That's what you said?

2 A. Yes, around that. But you see, there was a lot of movement of

3 the population, refugees coming and going. The number was never

4 constant.

5 Q. And I can understand. So this is my question now: Do you think

6 that if there were 10.000 foreigners, you would have been able to assess

7 if there were 10.000? Would you say that there were 10.000?

8 A. No, no, there were not that many. There were less.

9 Q. That's just a point. Would you say that there were a thousand?

10 A. Maybe.

11 Q. So at least we have some kind of figure to work with. We have a

12 thousand foreigners who emerged into Mehurici according to you,

13 approximately a thousand. And we have a population of approximately

14 10.000, plus or minus, you know, due to the movement. Am I correct?

15 A. Well, perhaps there were not even a thousand. But okay. I don't

16 know the exact number.

17 Q. I don't think that we would expect you to know the exact number,

18 but we just want to have an idea of whether there were the same amount of

19 the population, if they were in the minority or if they were in the

20 majority. Were they in the minority?

21 A. They were in the minority.

22 Q. How would you describe the situation in Mehurici, let's say, from

23 about January 1993 onwards, until mid-1994? How would you describe the

24 situation?

25 A. What is exactly the object of your interest here?

Page 11149

1 Q. Well, with all due respect, I have to ask the questions. I ask

2 the questions; you provide the answers. And my question to you is how

3 would you describe the situation in January 1993 and onwards, to about

4 mid-March 1994, in Mehurici? That's all.

5 A. As far as Mehurici and the surroundings are concerned, including

6 a couple of villages around Mehurici, there were both Muslims and Croats.

7 There was a majority of Muslims. This mujahedin camp was set up in the

8 place called Poljanice. And we, as the police, carried out our duties,

9 our regular duties under the new conditions of war.

10 Q. I appreciate that. But I don't think you understood the

11 question. Were the relations in Mehurici between the different ethnic

12 groups great, wonderful? Was it a tense situation? How was that period

13 then in Mehurici?

14 A. As for the relations between the Muslims and Croats in that area,

15 I have already mentioned in my testimony that checkpoints had been

16 established. Mehurici was divided from Travnik and Zenica, and we always

17 used roads to leave Mehurici, and we would always come across checkpoints

18 set up by the Croatian side. Our people would be stopped.

19 Q. Can I interrupt you. If you had to use one word to describe the

20 situation, what would that word be?

21 A. Difficult, tricky. I don't know which word. Tricky.

22 Q. Would I be correct if I had said to you or can I put to you that

23 the situation could be described as tense?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. And would I be correct in saying, then, that the

Page 11150

1 emergence of these foreigners was part and parcel of the tense situation

2 that existed in Mehurici?

3 A. That also had an impact.

4 Q. Their presence then fuelled the fire. Am I correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, you as commander of the MUP, the civilian police, and your

7 role being to protect and serve basically and prevention of crime and

8 protecting your civilians regardless of ethnic background, how did you

9 see your role with respect to the foreigners who came in?

10 A. Well, when they just started arriving, we tried to inspect their

11 identity papers. We couldn't find a common language. We couldn't speak

12 to them. We had no interpreters. They didn't seem to have any identity

13 papers. And at the beginning, they settled in the Mehurici schoolhouse.

14 Q. But as a police officer and as a commander, you have certain

15 powers. Am I correct? Powers of arrest being one of them. Am I

16 correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. So could you tell me why you refrained from arresting or dealing

19 with these foreigners who were in the minority that came into Mehurici

20 and who, according to you, appeared to be causing a lot of chaos? Why

21 you personally, as a commander, and why your force didn't do anything to

22 stop what was going on.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would appreciate

24 it if my learned friend would perhaps specify the period for the sake of

25 the witness. Does her question refer to the period when he was a regular

Page 11151

1 policeman or later? Because the period she set up initially is rather

2 broad, 18 months or so. The question doesn't sound very clear to us. I

3 don't know if the witness is able to answer.

4 MS. BENJAMIN: With all due respect, Mr. President, I think I

5 established from the very beginning that the witness was a police officer

6 in the first instance, and then he became a commander. So during the

7 period, 18-month period, he was a police officer, albeit a junior, and

8 then he became the commander. So it's in his capacity in both roles, as

9 a police officer, his duty as an ordinary police officer, and his duty

10 when he became commander. And I think he's prepared to answer.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, you've heard the

12 question. Please answer the question, which is a very precise one.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time when they just began

14 arriving, they didn't cause any problems when they were small in number.

15 They would come by night, settle in the schoolhouse. They would go to

16 the mosque. They would have some limited contacts with those segments of

17 the population who were more religious than others. But there were no

18 problems with them. So that we didn't have any need to arrest them at

19 that time, but we did inform our force at the base in Travnik that they

20 were starting to appear, and we were told to try to find out who they

21 were and where they were coming from, to see their papers. And that

22 proved to be difficult. They didn't have any papers or they didn't show

23 any to us.

24 MS. BENJAMIN:

25 Q. So we would go back to the part of the problems -- we've finished

Page 11152

1 with the part when they weren't giving problems. We will move on to the

2 part when they started being problematic. Before I go on to that, could

3 you for the benefit of the Trial Chamber tell us who gave these people

4 permission to settle in the Mehurici school?

5 A. I don't know that. I was not accountable for the school. I was

6 not responsible for it. We had our base in the police quarters. And I

7 don't know how they ended up in the schoolhouse.

8 Q. Would you happen to know, then, how they got through the HVO

9 checkpoints? How did they get through? How did they get to you in

10 Mehurici?

11 A. I don't know how they managed to do that. But there were cases

12 when they were found dead. One of them was found dead, killed in a place

13 called Zukica Bridge. How they passed through, I don't know.

14 Q. Could I suggest to you then, Mr. Jusic, that they may have been a

15 part of the ABiH?

16 A. Not as far as I know.

17 Q. Well, you as a civilian police, who is supposed to protect and

18 serve and who is supposed to uphold the law, allow a bunch of foreigners,

19 and from your explanation, they refused to show their papers - most

20 likely they didn't have any, so they were probably illegal as well - you

21 as a commander never thought it prudent that you should sort them out, do

22 something about them? Didn't you think it would have been the prudent

23 thing to do?

24 A. I informed headquarters in Travnik, but I myself wasn't in a

25 position to take any action in the area. In my opinion, this is

Page 11153

1 something that should have been dealt with at a higher level, if I or the

2 civilian police in Mehurici were to take any action.

3 Q. And so I believe that you will agree with me, then, when I --

4 after looking at all the possible ways, you would agree with me that I

5 say that they had to be a part of this army? They had to have some kind

6 of nexus with somebody; hence, the authority that they presented. Am I

7 correct?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the question is

9 asked and answered. The witness has already answered this question in

10 very precise terms.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Benjamin, you've asked him

12 the question again. He said he didn't know. So there's no need to ask

13 him the same question again since he has told us that he couldn't say

14 whether they were part of the army or not.

15 MS. BENJAMIN: My apologies --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Otherwise, this could be

17 considered to be harassing the witness, which is not your objective.

18 MS. BENJAMIN: And that's not my intention, Mr. President.

19 Mr. President, may the witness be shown P775, please.

20 Q. I wish to draw your attention to paragraph 2, and in particular,

21 line 9.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My learned colleague has now

25 distributed a document with the possibility of asking questions in

Page 11154

1 relation to this document. Well, questions can only be asked if one

2 establishes that the witness has already seen this document or was

3 familiar with it in some other way. If no grounds have been established

4 for asking the witness questions about this document, it shouldn't be

5 allowed.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Benjamin.

7 MS. BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

8 Q. Witness, on the 20th of June 1993, were you resubordinated to the

9 306th Brigade?

10 A. Yes, we were. But I don't know whether that was the date. I do

11 remember that we were resubordinated for a 45-day period.

12 Q. And the 20th of June 1993 would have been included in the 45-day

13 period. Am I correct?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness has

15 again said that he was resubordinated to the 306th Brigade. However,

16 this document, as far as I can say [as interpreted], is from the 7th

17 Muslim Brigade, and I do not see what relation it has to the answers the

18 witness has provided so far.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let the Prosecution -- let the

20 Prosecution finish their questions because there is an obvious link,

21 because Document P204 dated the 18th of June resubordinates them to the

22 306th. And we have a document dated the 20th of June 1993 which comes

23 from the military authority, and a reference in this document is made to

24 a detachment and to the MUP. He himself was a member of the MUP, and

25 therefore he could perhaps tell us why this document dated the 20th of

Page 11155

1 June mentions MUP since on the 18th of June the Mehurici MUP was

2 resubordinated to the 306th Brigade.

3 Ms. Benjamin, ask the witness the question that relates to

4 line 9, or rather that relates to the paragraph you were referring to.

5 Please go ahead.

6 MS. BENJAMIN: Thanks, Mr. President.

7 Q. And I originally indicated to you line 9, but because of my

8 friend's objection, I'll just take you up to one, two, three -- the third

9 line of paragraph 2 so that we can establish the foundation. And it

10 speaks about "along with 15 MUP members under the command of the command

11 of the 2nd Detachment..." So does this document say to you that the MUP

12 was involved in this situation? Does it say so?

13 A. I haven't seen this document before. The area it referred to --

14 the area of Bijelo Bucje is not an area in the vicinity of Mehurici.

15 Within the Travnik MUP, there were other police outposts, but this does

16 not concern or is not related to the outpost at which I was present.

17 Q. I'm very well aware of that. But I just wanted -- for her to see

18 that the MUP was involved in this, because you're part and parcel of the

19 MUP, aren't you -- weren't you?

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, what did you want to say?

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness has just said that he

23 had nothing to do with this or with this area. The witness isn't

24 familiar with the document. If he was never present in that area, and

25 the Travnik area is a vast area, how can my learned colleague continue to

Page 11156

1 ask this witness questions? We can all see that it says MUP in this

2 document, but this has nothing to do with this witness.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Benjamin, the witness has

4 said that this document does not concern him because of the

5 resubordination of the MUP in the Bijelo Bucje area, but this was not his

6 sector. But you have come to the conclusion that MUP may have been

7 related to the 7th Brigade. But not to this witness, in any event.

8 That's what the Defence has pointed out, and quite rightly.

9 MS. BENJAMIN: Mr. President, and I could not agree more. But

10 the point that the document is being used for is really for line 9. I

11 drew his attention to line 3, too, so that my learned friend would

12 realise that the MUP, MUP all over, wherever, were subordinated to the

13 306th in different areas. And the question is not in respect to the

14 battalion that was in that particular area, and if she allows me to ask

15 the question, she'll see where I'm coming from.

16 May I?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Before I give the floor

18 to Defence counsel, with regard to the 306th Brigade in this document,

19 unless I'm mistaken, I don't see that the 306th Brigade is mentioned.

20 312th Brigade has been mentioned, the 7th Brigade, but I can't see a

21 reference to the 306th Brigade in this document.

22 MS. BENJAMIN: Mr. President, as I indicated before, the document

23 is not produced for the brigade that the witness is subordinated to. The

24 document is produced to show what went before it with respect to line 9,

25 and it was the same question that my learned friend accused me of asking

Page 11157

1 the witness twice. So I was just about to use the document to draw his

2 attention to find out whether my conclusion was correct with respect to

3 line 9 and the foreigners.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But in line 9, line

5 9 of which paragraph?

6 MS. BENJAMIN: Of paragraph 2, Mr. President. Earlier on I had

7 asked the witness if he believed, in light of all that had transpired, if

8 he thought or he agreed with me that the mujahedins, because of all their

9 power or apparent power, could have been aligned to the army, ABiH army.

10 And he said no. And I want to draw his attention to line 9, to get his

11 opinion on what is there. That has nothing to do with who he's

12 subordinated to or anything else.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll translate line

14 9 now. It says that in the course of the action for soldiers,

15 foreigners, Arab foreigners, were killed, as well as three other soldiers

16 from the 312th Brigade. That's what line 9 says. And you want to ask

17 him whether he was aware of the fact that four foreign soldiers were

18 killed?

19 MS. BENJAMIN: In duty along and aside with the 312th Motorised

20 Brigade.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But he was not a member

22 of the 312th. How can he answer the question if he wasn't a member of

23 the 312th? He was a member of the 306th.

24 Defence counsel.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. For two or

Page 11158

1 three times, you have tried to explain to my learned colleague that this

2 is not a witness who could provide a witness [as interpreted] to such a

3 question. And secondly, that the document itself demonstrates that it

4 refers to some other order, not an order about which my colleague asked a

5 question. We have brought two members of the 312th Brigade here, and if

6 my colleague had wanted to discuss this matter, she had the opportunity

7 to do so. This witness cannot provide any additional information in

8 response to the question put to him by my learned colleague.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Ms. Benjamin, you have heard

10 what I have said; you have heard what Defence counsel has said. This

11 member was not a member of the 312th Brigade, and therefore he cannot

12 answer questions about an operation that concerned the 312th Brigade,

13 since he was only resubordinated to the 306th for a number of days.

14 Please continue.

15 MS. BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution will

16 rest on that issue.

17 With all due respect, Mr. President, could the witness be shown

18 Prosecution Exhibit P430, please.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please, go ahead.

20 MS. BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

21 Q. Witness, you had earlier indicated to us that around the date of

22 this document, which is the 24th of June 1993, you were commander in the

23 police station in Mehurici, and you were resubordinated to the 306th

24 Brigade. I'm correct, am I not?

25 A. I don't know the exact date on which we were resubordinated. But

Page 11159

1 if you referred to some event, that might help me.

2 Q. Well, if you can recall the document P204 that was initially

3 shown to you and you said you recognised, that was dated the 18th of

4 June. And that was the document that was talking about the

5 resubordination. And the 24th of June is after the 18th of June. So you

6 would have been resubordinated then. Thank you.

7 I would like you to look at paragraph 2 in particular.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, my learned colleague

9 asked a question, and I didn't hear the witness answer the previous

10 question.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [No interpretation]

12 MS. BENJAMIN:

13 Q. I indicated to you that based on Prosecution Exhibit 204, which

14 was dated 18th June 1993, with respect to the resubordination, that P430

15 was dated the 24th of June 1993. So definitely you would have been

16 resubordinated by then?

17 A. Well, probably.

18 Q. No, we don't have to be probably.

19 MS. BENJAMIN: Could you show him the document, P204, please.

20 Q. That's the first document we showed you. If you look at the very

21 top of the document, it says "18th June 1993." Am I correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And if you look at number one under "Order." Okay. And if you

24 look at P430, and the date is?

25 A. The 24th of June.

Page 11160

1 Q. And the 24th comes after 18, so you were already resubordinated.

2 Am I correct? Okay, now we can move on.

3 A. Very well.

4 Q. Let's look at paragraph 2. Have you gotten to the end of

5 paragraph 2?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Could you -- in light of -- in light of an answer that you gave

8 to my learned friend in respect to you yourself visited the Mehurici

9 school and that your duty was to protect the civilians there, in light of

10 paragraph 2, could you explain to us exactly what has transpired there?

11 Because something seems to be amiss. So could you clarify it for us,

12 please.

13 A. The civilian police provided security for the civilians in the

14 school and for HVO prisoners who were kept in two garages. I don't know

15 how else to describe them. No one reported any incidents of maltreatment

16 of the civilians or of the soldiers. I remember one event, one or two

17 mujahedin wanted to enter the sports hall in which the civilians were

18 kept. But the police prevented them from doing so.

19 Q. Would it be correct then, and correct me if I'm wrong, to say

20 that the civilians at the Mehurici school were properly treated? Or

21 would it be incorrect to say that?

22 A. Given the conditions or the facilities we could provide at the

23 time, well, they ate the same food that I ate, and it wasn't possible for

24 us to provide them with better conditions. I think we provided them with

25 the best possible conditions at the time.

Page 11161

1 Q. But surely, these are very strong words. "They are subject to

2 lethal danger." Could you tell us who -- or rather, do you know what was

3 referred to as the "death brigade"?

4 A. No, I haven't heard about that.

5 Q. Why would you think that the members of the commission for

6 prisoners would be concerned about the 247 civilians of Croatian

7 nationality in the gym? Why do you think that they would be concerned

8 if, in fact, as you say, the civilians were properly treated? Why would

9 you think that they would express concern?

10 A. I don't know why they were concerned. But as far as I'm

11 concerned, and my men, I know that the civilians were treated correctly.

12 Even today, I meet people who were there. Even today, I meet such

13 people.

14 Q. And am I correct in saying that the Mehurici school was guarded

15 by the military police? Am I correct? Did I get that right?

16 A. Perhaps from the beginning, but we the civilian policemen took

17 over. But we did cooperate with the military police.

18 Q. And if I say to you that these foreigners that you told us about

19 who came into Mehurici, if I say to you that they were also guarding the

20 school, would I be correct?

21 A. Not at the time.

22 Q. Could you tell us when they were guarding the school.

23 A. I only know that they were in the school at the beginning, and

24 then they went up to the camp in Poljanice. But I'm aware of an

25 incident. I remember an Arab coming. He wanted to enter the gym where

Page 11162

1 the civilians were kept. But the policeman prevented him from doing so.

2 I think that some MPs appeared rapidly as well, and this foreigner didn't

3 enter the school. He didn't enter the gym. A record of the event was

4 made and forwarded to Travnik.

5 Q. Bearing in mind that this was your area of responsibility, so to

6 speak, I take it that when you say to us that the foreigners and the

7 mujahedins as they were later referred to as, had absolutely nothing in

8 the control of the Mehurici school. I take it that that is what happened

9 at that time. Okay.

10 In your response to my learned friend, you said that the Red

11 Cross had no particular -- could you respond, please.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead, please.

13 MS. BENJAMIN:

14 Q. Could you acknowledge what I just suggested, that in your area of

15 responsibility as commander of the Mehurici police station, you are aware

16 that the mujahedins were not in control of the school or not in any part

17 responsible for the guarding of the civilians at the school?

18 A. I was aware of that.

19 Q. Now, in answer to my learned friend, you indicated that the Red

20 Cross had no objections with respect to the way the civilians were

21 treated. Am I correct?

22 A. I said that I wasn't aware of them having any objections. That's

23 what I said.

24 MS. BENJAMIN: Mr. President, may the witness be shown

25 Prosecution Exhibit P740, please.

Page 11163

1 Q. In particular, from line --

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, before my

3 colleague moves on to line 12 or 13, as she said, it would again be

4 necessary to establish the grounds on which she wants to ask this witness

5 questions about this document. The witness should be asked whether he is

6 familiar with the document. He should be asked whose document this is.

7 MS. BENJAMIN: Well, with all due respect to my friend, Mr.

8 President, for the witness to compare a statement with another, he does

9 not necessarily have to know the document or to whose document. The

10 question will follow exactly what preceded. He said that the Red Cross

11 as far as he knew raised no objections. This is a document by the Red

12 Cross, and clearly -- I take it I can go ahead. I don't have to

13 continue.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. There's a problem as far

15 as the dates are concerned. This document is dated the 4th of November,

16 and there is a reference in the document -- to which period exactly?

17 Which period is concerned by the document?

18 MS. BENJAMIN: It's dated 4th November 1993, and I think it

19 speaks of -- it talks about in our letter of 16th October 1993. So it's

20 around that period. And if my learned friend would realise that when I

21 started off, I particularly asked the witness the expanse of the time

22 that he held his role for, and he started off saying he was a junior

23 police at the beginning and then he became the commander, and

24 subordinated to the MUP thereafter for 45 days. So it's all during his

25 tenure as commander. And I wanted to verify if this was the person that

Page 11164

1 they were talking about.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But -- Defence counsel.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't see any

4 relation between this witness's testimony and the document referred to.

5 All the questions put by my learned colleague concern the civilians who

6 were in the primary school until the 24th of June. This document does

7 not refer to that event or to the manner in which those civilians were

8 treated.

9 Secondly, the witness said that the Red Cross did not raise any

10 objections when they visited the school. As you can see, this document

11 is dated in November, and it comes from the HVO Red Cross. We have to

12 see to whom it was forwarded. We don't see that it was forwarded to the

13 witness. If the witness is to answer any questions, a relation has to be

14 established between this witness and this witness's testimony and the

15 document that the -- my colleague wants to show. I don't see such a

16 relation, and I don't think questions can be asked relating to this

17 document.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The problem is as

19 follows, as far as I can see: The witness says that he was

20 resubordinated to the 306th Brigade for 40 days. If he was

21 resubordinated at the beginning of June, in October and November he was

22 no longer resubordinated to the 306th. The indictment concerns civilians

23 detained in the Mehurici primary school up until the 24th of June. So

24 the period referred to in this document does not relate to count 3 in the

25 indictment. So we don't know, unless you have asked him the question,

Page 11165

1 whether the people in the school -- but I'll ask him the question, and

2 this will resolve the difficulty.

3 Witness, as far as you can remember, in October -- of course it

4 can be difficult to remember dates. In October or November, as far as

5 you can remember, were there any civilians who may have been protected or

6 guarded in the Mehurici primary school? As far as you can remember, was

7 this the case?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not in November.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there weren't any?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So as far as you know, these

12 civilians were protected until when, exactly?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until the exchange. Until they

14 were exchanged. I don't know the exact date.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And this exchange was about

16 what time, July, August?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe a month after they were

18 brought from Bila. Maybe a month elapsed until the exchange.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And after the exchange, were

20 there again civilians settled in the schoolhouse, or was it finished with

21 the school?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there was no one.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So there was no one there any

24 more.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.

Page 11166

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So, Prosecution, it seems to me

2 difficult to find a link between the witness and what he says and the

3 contents of this document concerning the alleged persons detained in

4 Mehurici. That would be in October-November supposedly. The witness

5 says there was no one. That's a different theory.

6 But according to your theory, in October-November in Mehurici,

7 could there have been sites of detention or detained persons?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. Maybe if there was

9 somebody in the mujahedin camp. That's the only thing I can think of, if

10 any. As for other places, I don't know.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So your answer is that if there

12 are any detained persons, it would be in the mujahedin camp, not in the

13 schoolhouse. Very well.

14 Ms. Benjamin, in these circumstances, we seem to be wasting our

15 time with this document.

16 MS. BENJAMIN: Thanks, Mr. President. And I think I'll get it

17 this way.

18 Q. Witness, just verify for me the period of your tenure as

19 commander of the civilian police force in the Mehurici area. When did

20 you cease being the commander in the Mehurici area?

21 A. I wasn't there long. A couple of months, perhaps.

22 Q. We know that you started in June. "A couple of months" meaning

23 what?

24 A. I was appointed commander there provisionally until they were

25 able to send somebody with more experience. And when traffic on the road

Page 11167

1 was re-established, a commander from Travnik, a new commander from

2 Travnik arrived. So I was commander for about two or three months. I

3 cannot remember exactly.

4 Q. Thank you. And I take it that after you relinquished your

5 portfolio as commander, you knew nothing that transpired in the Mehurici

6 area.

7 A. I continued to work at the police outpost as a policeman, or

8 rather deputy commander.

9 Q. And you continued to work as a policeman, or rather deputy after

10 you gave up the post of commander. And for how long did you practice as

11 the deputy?

12 A. Maybe until 199 -- I don't know.

13 Q. Until 1990.

14 A. I'm trying -- I'm trying here --

15 Q. Can I help you. Was it to the end of 1993? Did you continue as

16 deputy commander until March 1994 in the Mehurici area? Up to when were

17 you -- the end of the year, the beginning of the next year?

18 A. I was constantly there at the police station. I worked until

19 1995, 1996. I don't know how much it matters whether I was deputy

20 commander or assistant commander. I can't be precise on that.

21 Q. Thank you. And this is my question to you: As deputy commander

22 during that period, November 1993, would you have known whether there

23 were detainees in the school in Mehurici? It was your area.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He has already answered this

25 question. He said there were none.

Page 11168

1 MS. BENJAMIN: Thank you.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the other hand, it would be

3 more purposeful to ask him something like this: You became deputy

4 commander in June. Who was commander then? Because you were deputy.

5 You must know the name of the person who was sent to work as commander

6 during the months of September, October, November.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe his name was Ahmet

8 Musinovic.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Here. At least this way, we

10 made some progress.

11 MS. BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President.

12 Q. Maybe you can help with this: Do you know of the blacksmith shop

13 in Mehurici?

14 A. I know.

15 Q. Could you tell us what transpired at the blacksmith shop in

16 Mehurici during your tenure?

17 A. I don't understand the question.

18 Q. Do you know if there were any detainees housed at the blacksmith

19 shop in Mehurici?

20 A. I know. There were members of the HVO detained there. I don't

21 know how many, but I know they were located in two rooms. Everybody

22 calls it blacksmith's, but those are actually two garages facing each

23 other, not far from the police premises, the premises of the civilian

24 police.

25 Q. So the blacksmith shop, according to you, was close to the

Page 11169

1 civilian police premises. Am I correct?

2 A. [No verbal response]

3 Q. And that's where you worked from. Am I correct?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. As a member of the police force upholding law and order, didn't

6 you think that you should have gone over to the blacksmith shop to

7 investigate what might have been happening there?

8 A. We had the responsibility to watch over the detainees, the

9 prisoners of war, so that they would be safe from harm by others. And I

10 know only people from the military security organs were authorised to

11 come in and take somebody away, perhaps. But I don't think anybody

12 actually came. There was only questioning wherein they gave statements

13 to security officers. Otherwise, they were guarded by members of the

14 civilian police.

15 MS. BENJAMIN: Mr. President, could the witness be shown

16 Prosecution Exhibit 660, please.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Before this document is shown to

18 the witness, I believe there is slight inclarity in the way this last

19 answer was interpreted. So maybe my learned friend can go back to her

20 previous question so that I don't retell the answer. Because I heard the

21 witness saying that it was their job to take care of those prisoners and

22 to take them to the schoolhouse where the security officer interviewed

23 them. And it is formulated in the recorded answer in such a way that you

24 don't see clearly who had what task.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Please rephrase the

Page 11170

1 question so that we see exactly what was whose job.

2 MS. BENJAMIN: I do not think that was what the question

3 intended. But if my friend wants that answer, we can ask him outright.

4 Q. Could you tell us whose job it was to look after the detainees at

5 the blacksmith shop.

6 A. It was the job of the police outpost, the MUP outpost. My men,

7 in other words. The civilian police.

8 MS. BENJAMIN: Did he get P660?

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, please. There are two

10 counsel on their feet.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would again ask

12 for identification of the relationship of this witness with the document

13 before any further questions are asked.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You, too, have the

15 floor.

16 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have the same

17 problem as before. This document is a military document dating back to

18 the period when the witness who was working in the MUP was not

19 resubordinated to the 306th Brigade. So it is our position that he

20 should not be saying anything about it. He should not be commenting on

21 the document.

22 MS. BENJAMIN: I think somewhere in his testimony he spoke about

23 the body of a foreigner who was found in Zukija Most Road. And I think

24 it's very important for the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution and the

25 Defence for him to be able to clarify exactly what he was talking about.

Page 11171

1 And my question to him would have been, if I would be allowed, in the

2 second paragraph on page 2, was that the same person or is that the same

3 incident that you had referred to earlier on in your testimony in chief?

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You can ask the

5 question because there is indeed a link. He had really talked about

6 foreigners who had been killed. So please go ahead, ask the question.

7 Rephrase the question, please, because I don't think he understood it

8 very well.

9 MS. BENJAMIN:

10 Q. Mr. Jusic, earlier on in your answers to my colleague, you

11 indicated that there was a body that was found in Zukija Most Road. Do

12 you recall? Yes. So my question is to you when you read the paragraph

13 on page 2, is that what you were referring to when you responded to my

14 colleague?

15 A. Can I first read this?

16 Q. Sure.

17 A. That happened in 1992, what I said about that foreigner, and an

18 on-site investigation by the criminal investigation service was

19 performed. I don't know what else to tell you.

20 Q. So this is 1993, so that's something completely different,

21 according to you?

22 A. Just a minute. Let me see.

23 I could not say if that is the same thing or not. It could have

24 been in late 1992 or early 1993. But I already told you all I know about

25 the event.

Page 11172

1 Q. Thank you very much. But you will agree with me that -- or

2 correct me if I'm wrong that some of these foreigners wore uniforms

3 similar to those worn in the BH Army. Am I correct?

4 A. I don't know. At that time all uniforms looked alike. And the

5 foreigners wore some other kind of uniform. In fact, they wore something

6 that looked more like their own traditional costume.

7 Q. Thank you, sir. And my second-to-last question will be this, Do

8 you -- rather, I wish to get your opinion on this: Do you as commander

9 of the Mehurici police post and as a member of the police force who

10 swears to uphold the law and to protect the citizens, do you feel in any

11 way responsible for the chaos and the havoc that may have been wreaked by

12 the foreigners who came into your country?

13 A. We experienced problems with the Croatian side even before the

14 arrival of the foreigners, the mujahedin. As far as I can remember, I as

15 a policeman was captured in the place called Cukle at a time when I

16 believe there were no foreigners in the area. I also said, however, that

17 the arrival of the foreigners only made things worse. But the problems

18 existed even before, before I remember them being around Mehurici.

19 Q. I do not think you clearly understood what I was asking, so I'll

20 ask it in this way: Do you feel in any way that you failed in your duty

21 as commander of the police in Mehurici to the civilians of Mehurici? Do

22 you feel that you failed in your duty in any way?

23 A. We had an outpost where we worked together, Muslims and Croats

24 jointly. Then Croats left us. After that, we already had much less

25 control over villages inhabited by Croats. I don't know to what extent I

Page 11173

1 am guilty or responsible for that. It is up to you to decide.

2 Q. Do you feel that in light of the fact, as you indicated to this

3 Trial Chamber, that the mujahedins who came into the Mehurici area during

4 your tenure and who, as you indicated, were in the minority, do you feel

5 that the population, so to speak, was let down by the army, let down by

6 the police? Do you feel this is how it is?

7 A. Could you please repeat.

8 Q. Would you agree with me if I say to you that the mujahedins were

9 allowed to do whatever they pleased during your tenure?

10 A. I was not -- correction. They were not allowed, and they did

11 indeed many things that we were not happy about, but we were unable to

12 prevent it. The problem of the mujahedin should have been resolved at a

13 much higher level than the level of my police outpost or police station.

14 It should have been resolved at the level of the military police or

15 higher up. At least, that's my opinion.

16 Q. And do you get the impression that there might have been a reason

17 why this wasn't addressed?

18 A. Well, the mujahedin did elicit the sympathy of some locals. Not

19 all of them, but some. They married some young local girls. I don't

20 know. I am saying about the mujahedin who were there. They helped

21 people, but they also required people to abide by a certain dress code,

22 cover their heads, et cetera. Some people who were more religious took

23 them with more sympathy; others with less. It's very difficult to

24 explain this situation.

25 For instance, after they established these family ties with

Page 11174

1 certain families, I would be arresting, for instance, the son-in-law of

2 my neighbour who had married into that family, that mujahedin. You see?

3 Q. And finally, my last question to you is would you agree with me

4 if I say to you that the civilians were not in control of law and order,

5 but in fact it was the police and the army?

6 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Sorry, maybe the witness

7 understood the question of my learned friend, but I didn't because the

8 question refers to civilians.

9 MS. BENJAMIN: While --

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You should specify this

11 question which is, after all, rather complicated.

12 MS. BENJAMIN:

13 Q. A while ago you indicated to me in response to an earlier

14 question that it was difficult to deal with the mujahedins because of the

15 connection they had with the locals, so to speak. So my question to you

16 was who was in control of law and order? Was it the civilians or the

17 police and the army? Who's in control of law and order?

18 A. The police and the military police. But I don't know how to

19 explain to you the situation that prevailed then. There were front lines

20 on both sides, and then you want some other problems on top of that.

21 From the command of the MUP, we received instructions not to deepen the

22 conflict, but on the contrary to try to smoothen things out.

23 We were not looking for trouble. We were not trying to deepen

24 the conflict. We did our job as best we could under the conditions of

25 the war. It's not the same as peacetime. You should have been there and

Page 11175

1 lived there for a while in order to understand. I don't know how to

2 explain it to you now.

3 MS. BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. Jusic.

4 Mr. President, this ends the cross-examination.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have -- we will have about

6 three-quarters of an hour after the break. There may be some additional

7 questions, and the other Judges have told me that they also have

8 questions for this witness. So as far as re-examination is concerned,

9 how long will you need?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Not more than five minutes, Your

11 Honour.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as far as the other Defence

13 team is concerned?

14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if we have any

15 questions, it won't take more than five minutes.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, that will take us

17 up to 10 past 1.00, if the Defence needs 10 minutes. The Judges will

18 have to ensure that their questions are concise so that we can finish by

19 1.45 because we have two other witnesses to deal with by the end of

20 tomorrow.

21 We will now adjourn, and we will resume at about 5 to 1.00.

22 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

23 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I will now give the floor to

25 the Defence for re-examination.

Page 11176

1 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Jusic, as a policeman and as the commander

3 of the police administration in 1993, what was your attitude towards the

4 protection of civilians? Did you make distinctions of any kind which

5 were based on their nationality or religion?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Mr. Jusic, my learned colleague showed you Document P204 dated

8 the 18th of June 1993.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could this document be shown to

10 the witness again.

11 Q. Mr. Jusic, when answering a question put to you by my learned

12 colleague, you said that an agreement had been reached at a higher level

13 according to which you were to be resubordinated to the 306th Brigade.

14 My learned colleague quoted some items from this order. At the bottom of

15 the order, the addressees are mentioned. Could you tell me whether the

16 obligations from 1 to 10 only concern you or all those who are mentioned

17 in this document, all this who are listed in this document?

18 A. It concerns everyone listed here at the bottom.

19 Q. In response to a question I put to you and to a question that was

20 subsequently put to you by my learned colleague, you said that at a given

21 point in time, you were engaged in combat operations for a 45-day period.

22 Could you tell me where you were engaged in combat operations during that

23 operation? Was that a combat line? Was that a defence line, combat

24 position, or did that have to do with the tasks that are defined here?

25 A. That had to do with the defence line.

Page 11177

1 Q. Tell me, to what extent did the new tasks you were assigned when

2 you were resubordinated, and this task involved mounting a defence, to

3 what extent did this influence your ability to carry out the tasks listed

4 in this order?

5 A. This had a great influence on our ability to do that.

6 Q. How many policemen remained at the police station after you had

7 left for the lines? How many policemen remained there in order to

8 perform duties that related to public order, et cetera?

9 A. Only two policemen remained there in order to cover that area and

10 to make a note of any incidents, if there were any such incidents.

11 Q. In response to a question from my learned colleague, you said

12 that in order to understand the situation, it would be necessary to be in

13 your position to see what was possible to do. Tell me, at the time, and

14 in particular today, do you believe that using force against those

15 individuals or foreigners, against those foreigners or individuals who

16 were close to them, would using force have resulted in opening up a new

17 combat front?

18 A. Well, given the conditions in Vlasic above us, there were Serbian

19 positions there. On the other side, there were the Croatian positions.

20 No one would have got involved in something like that. That would have

21 been our end if we had started a conflict with the mujahedin. And later

22 on, we settled accounts with them. But at that time, the conditions were

23 different. And we believed that it was possible to deal with them. At

24 the time, it was not possible to deal with them, and it would have been

25 an error. We didn't have sufficient troops, sufficient forces to deal

Page 11178

1 with them at the time.

2 Q. And my last question, Mr. Jusic, is as follows: You gave a rough

3 estimate of their number. You said there might have been a thousand of

4 them up until the end of 1993. Tell me, why were they strong? Was it

5 because of their numbers, their weapons, or were there any or factors

6 that had to be taken into account consideration before taking energetic

7 measures against them?

8 A. Well, at the time there was information according to which in our

9 area there were foreigners arriving from Herzegovina who also instilled

10 fear. And when the mujahedin came, some Muslims accepted them, and they

11 felt safer. But others didn't. And they had a little equipment, they

12 had some money. So they went after young men, provided them with

13 weapons. I think that --

14 Q. I apologise. If I have understood you correctly, would it be

15 correct to say that you could not really assess what the consequences

16 would be if other measures were taken against them? And my question is,

17 although you have answered it, who -- whose responsibility was it to take

18 measures in such conditions? Was it a military, political problem?

19 A. I think it was a political problem.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no other

21 questions.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. And the

23 other Defence team.

24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

25 have only two questions that concern this very same document that the

Page 11179

1 witness has before him.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] Would you have a look at item 2 in this

4 document, please, "Set up checking stations in the following places:

5 "Lager, Ovnak, Han Bila, Gornje Puticevo, the entry and exit from Guca

6 Gora." Was this order under item 2 carried out?

7 A. Well, I think it was, more or less.

8 Q. Have a look at number 3. Was this order carried out, the order

9 regarding daily patrols and were other measures taken?

10 A. Well, it was hard to carry this order out. There were very few

11 of us. Very few members of the civilian and military police.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll now give the

13 floor to the other Judges who have questions for you.

14 Questioned by the Court:

15 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Witness, did anyone ever

16 report to you about crimes or offences as a policeman at the time?

17 A. I can't remember now. You mean while -- throughout the entire

18 time I was in the police or 1993?

19 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: I'm referring to 1993, to that period. Did

20 you carry out any investigations into any crimes or offences?

21 A. At the time I was a policeman and later a commander. I had two

22 years' experience in the police. I can't remember now if we had received

23 any such reports.

24 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] There was no one who would

25 refer to you, who would report on crimes to you? The Prosecutor?

Page 11180

1 Civilian authorities? You never carried out investigations of any kind?

2 You never carried out investigations of any kind? You never carried out

3 investigations into crimes?

4 A. Well, an injured party could report an incident to us. In such a

5 case, it was our duty to take action and inform the authorities in

6 Travnik, which is where the crime investigation police was located.

7 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Let's go back to the Mehurici

8 primary school now. Were there any mujahedin who occupied the third

9 floor of the school when Croats were detained in the school.

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] But you can confirm that

12 there were mujahedin there before the Croatian detainees arrived there in

13 that school.

14 A. They were accommodated in the school, but before that date, I

15 don't know when, I think it was when a battalion in Mehurici was formed.

16 I think that that's when they went to Poljanice and set up a camp there.

17 But they weren't there before the Croatian detainees arrived in the

18 school and were placed in the gym.

19 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] For how long did you guard

20 the school while Croatian detainees were held in that school.

21 A. Well, we provided security for them right up until the exchange,

22 for that entire period. But perhaps a day or two after the conflict, we

23 didn't go into function immediately. The police had to gather, and then

24 we took over the duty of guarding them and the soldiers who were in the

25 garage.

Page 11181

1 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Were you aware of what had

2 happened in the school? Witnesses have appeared before us, and they have

3 stated that there were prisoners, some Croatian prisoners who were

4 beaten. Are you familiar with any such events.

5 A. No, I wasn't aware of that. No one reported any such incidents

6 to me. We had contact with a doctor. I can't remember her name. But if

7 anyone in the school needed anything, she would take care of it. She

8 would make requests for anyone who needed assistance. But she never

9 contacted anyone because someone had been beaten.

10 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Let's move on to another

11 subject. You said that you were called when there was looting of

12 Croatian houses, and you also said that you were not able to identify the

13 looters. You weren't able to arrest anyone at all? You weren't able to

14 arrest any of the perpetrators? No one was identified in the course of

15 looting one of these houses.

16 A. As far as I can remember, MUP did file criminal reports against

17 certain individuals for having stolen Croatian property. Similarly, I

18 remember that when the military police cooperated with us, then the

19 commander would order that an individual found in the course of looting

20 should be detained. But if we found someone who was transporting goods

21 that we suspected had been obtained as a result of theft -- on the whole

22 in such cases we didn't know whose property this was, we didn't know who

23 the injured party was. We would confiscate these items, but most of

24 these items were lost. We kept them, but the injured party never

25 appeared to claim them.

Page 11182

1 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] And my last question. In

2 response to a question put to you by Ms. Residovic, when she asked you

3 why you weren't able to control the mujahedin when they maltreated the

4 population, you said that you didn't want what had happened on Mount

5 Vlasic to be repeated. Could you provide us with certain additional

6 explanations, what actually happened on Mount Vlasic.

7 A. Perhaps I wasn't quite precise. A lot of policemen were killed

8 when defending the transmitter on Vlasic. I don't know if you're aware

9 of this, but it happened in May of 1992. And what I wanted to say is we

10 were ordered not to engage in a conflict with them so as to prevent our

11 men from being killed. We were told to try and make compromises, and if

12 not, to try and avoid making the situation even more tense. That's why I

13 mentioned Vlasic, for no other reason.

14 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Judge sitting

16 to my left also has some questions for you.

17 JUDGE SWART: Witness, while I was listening to you some

18 questions came up, and a number of them have been answered in the

19 meantime. But some others remain.

20 First, regarding your resubordination, I had a few questions that

21 have been answered by you partially a few minutes ago. But just to check

22 whether I have understood you well, when you were telling us about the

23 investigations of looting and setting of fire of houses, that period on

24 which you told us a number of things, that was not while you were

25 resubordinated, was it? It was in a different period.

Page 11183

1 A. I did not understand the question.

2 JUDGE SWART: Well, let me repeat my question then. You told us

3 you were resubordinated to the 306th Brigade. And after the break, you

4 said "I went to the front" in response to a question put by the Defence.

5 In the beginning this morning, you told us that you were engaged while

6 you were in Mehurici in preventing looting or investigating looting and

7 preventing houses from being burned and confiscating goods that had been

8 looted, all that activity. My question is that activity was not in the

9 period you were resubordinated, but in a different period. Is that

10 right? Is that a proper understanding of what you said.

11 A. In a period of 45 days, only two men were left at the police

12 station, and at that time nobody from the civilian police was able to

13 deal with these incidents. They were only able to guard their own

14 premises. We dealt with these investigations both when we were

15 resubordinated and when we were not.

16 JUDGE SWART: So while you were in the army, you had nevertheless

17 time to investigate cases of looting and burning of houses, et cetera?

18 Because now you said I did this during the subordination period and

19 outside the resubordination period. So it's not entirely clear to me.

20 A. While we were resubordinated, in one period of this

21 resubordination, the entire police unit was on the front line for 45

22 days. At that time, we didn't have time to deal with it. But the

23 military police did deal with it. That's the only such period.

24 JUDGE SWART: Have you been resubordinated several times or not.

25 A. I don't remember. I think that was the only time. I don't know.

Page 11184

1 JUDGE SWART: I'm asking this because the document that has been

2 shown to you, P204, suggests that you were resubordinated in order to

3 investigate, together with others, cases of looting and torching, et

4 cetera. But I'm not sure. So that's the reason why I ask you.

5 A. Well, that's true. But during this particular stint of

6 resubordination, I told you already, we were on the front line. There

7 was a shortage of manpower. Only during that period. We couldn't

8 investigate then because there were not enough people on the police

9 force.

10 JUDGE SWART: Let me then ask you a few questions on the events

11 in April in Miletici. You said that you were not directly involved in

12 negotiations to release the prisoners taken by the mujahedin, that you

13 afterwards got an order to go to Miletici to visit the old couple and to

14 check whether they -- everything went well with them. Did you also talk

15 to them, to this man and woman.

16 A. Every time we went up there, it was our duty to talk to them so

17 that they can tell us if they had any problems.

18 JUDGE SWART: And did they tell you the story of their -- of what

19 happened to them in April.

20 A. For the most part, our discussion revolved about what their life

21 there was like. They said that the Muslims from Miletici brought them

22 food, and we wanted to know whether anybody was doing them any harm in

23 that particular period, whether anybody was interfering with them.

24 JUDGE SWART: Did they speak about the events, for instance, who

25 had been killed, or did they keep their silence about it.

Page 11185

1 A. They were our neighbours. I don't know. We didn't talk about

2 that. We didn't ask them, and they didn't say.

3 JUDGE SWART: Did you have other information enabling you to tell

4 who had been killed in the situation.

5 A. We knew -- in fact, I was in Mehurici when the mujahedin passed

6 through escorting the people from Miletici. So that's only what I saw.

7 But I wasn't part of the investigation, and I wasn't there when the joint

8 commission came. I just had that task to see them from time to time and

9 talk to them. And if there was anything to report, I was to report it to

10 the police station in Travnik, and even the military organs.

11 JUDGE SWART: [Previous interpretation continues] ... situation

12 on the events and send it to Travnik to the MUP or to the public

13 prosecutor.

14 A. A official note was written summarising our knowledge of the

15 affair, but we didn't go out into the field to investigate.

16 JUDGE SWART: And that note was written by you or by the then

17 commander or by whom.

18 A. I couldn't tell you now, but I know for certain that it was

19 written, and the report was sent on to Travnik.

20 JUDGE SWART: And the information in the report, what was its

21 basis? What were the sources of information being used in this report.

22 A. What we were able to gather through operative work without going

23 on the site, but otherwise the majority of the locals of Mehurici were

24 there, and they could see those Muslims and Croats being led by the

25 mujahedin towards the camp in Poljanice. And that is the information

Page 11186

1 underlying the report that was sent to the base in Travnik.

2 JUDGE SWART: You wrote in this report or some other person was

3 based on what the population told you as the police and what the army

4 told you. Is that right.

5 A. Roughly, yes.

6 JUDGE SWART: Regarding Maline, I have a few questions to put to

7 you.

8

9 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the Judge.

10 Microphone, please, for the Judge.

11 JUDGE SWART: I'm sorry.

12 On Maline, you said "I wrote a report and I sent it to Travnik."

13 I have a few questions on that. Was it a long report? Was it a short

14 report? Can you say anything about the length and content of the report?

15 A. I cannot recall that any more.

16 JUDGE SWART: Can you -- are you able to recall what your sources

17 of information were regarding this report? Who gave you the information

18 you put in your report.

19 A. Regarding Maline or regarding Miletici?

20 JUDGE SWART: Regarding Maline this time, yes. I'm now talking

21 about Maline.

22 A. Analogously after this clash with the Croats, people were

23 talking. It was common knowledge that mujahedin singled out some people

24 from the column and took them away. Nobody knew where. They took them

25 away in the direction of the Poljanice camp, and these Croats were not

Page 11187

1 seen later. That's what we heard, but we had no more precise

2 information.

3 JUDGE SWART: You said it is -- it was common knowledge that

4 mujahedin singled out some people. This is my next question. Who told

5 you so? Were these eyewitnesses? Were these other people who had heard

6 it from other people? How direct were your sources of information.

7 A. I heard that much later, long after the event. I don't know how

8 long, but it could have been as long as a month.

9 JUDGE SWART: And did you speak with eyewitnesses, people who had

10 seen the events themselves, or with other people.

11 A. We didn't speak to eyewitnesses. It's a story that made the

12 rounds among the people, so it reached me about a month after the event.

13 JUDGE SWART: So it had some characteristics of a rumour, then?

14 It's difficult to substantiate in your case. That is the situation.

15 A. Yes, that is the situation.

16 JUDGE SWART: Having written your report, you sent it to Travnik.

17 And could you tell me to what authority in Travnik.

18 A. All reports should go from outposts through the commander to

19 public security stations.

20 JUDGE SWART: Did you also send a copy - I don't know whether

21 this was practiced in your organisation, but did you also send a copy to

22 the public prosecutor in Travnik? To a public prosecutor or judicial

23 authority.

24 A. The police outpost was only in contact with the public security

25 station. And our criminal investigation service was the one who had

Page 11188

1 contacts with the judiciary and the prosecutor's office.

2 JUDGE SWART: Did you ever get or ever notice a reaction on your

3 report from the part of the competent authorities in Travnik.

4 A. I don't know anything about the outcome. I have never been

5 informed.

6 JUDGE SWART: And the same, I take it, is true for your report on

7 Miletici in the month of April? You have never heard anything about

8 steps being taken by the competent authorities in Travnik? Or have you.

9 A. No. But I know that a joint commission had gone out for an

10 on-site inspection, a joint commission of the police and the army of

11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We were told that it was in the purview of the army.

12 It was their case.

13 JUDGE SWART: That is, in fact, true. That we know also, yes.

14 You said twice, I think, during this morning "it was not my duty and my"

15 -- "these are not my possibilities to do criminal investigations myself.

16 I was the only professional in the team in Mehurici, and we had no means

17 to do these things." So you only reported suspicions to the competent

18 authorities in Travnik. Is that right?

19 A. Well, roughly speaking, that's how things stood in that period

20 regarding Miletici and Maline.

21 JUDGE SWART: I'm asking this because you could in theory think

22 of other steps to take. You could, for instance, interview potential

23 witnesses who were in the school in Mehurici. You could go to Maline

24 itself and interview people there. You could go to the army and say

25 "well, do you know about the case?" You already said it was impossible

Page 11189

1 to interview mujahedin. But the other steps, were they also practically

2 impossible for you to take.

3 A. At that time, concerning the HVO soldiers detained there, and the

4 civilians -- in fact, I'm not sure about the civilians. But as far as

5 the military are concerned, interviews were conducted by the security

6 organs of the brigade. Men from the military security organs. And we

7 were only told to guard them and nothing more.

8 JUDGE SWART: Did you ever consider asking the army to help you

9 to interview mujahedin who could have been involved in the events?

10 A. No, I never asked the army to do that.

11 JUDGE SWART: And why didn't you do it?

12 A. Well, we sometimes tried to speak to the mujahedin, but they

13 refused to speak to us. But we cooperated with the army; that is to say,

14 with the military police within the army. But not with the mujahedin.

15 JUDGE SWART: Did the military police or the army offer you any

16 help -- offered you help in your investigations? Did they say, well,

17 let's assist you in discovering what has happened?

18 A. The civilian police didn't carry out any investigations into

19 those events. Military security did.

20 JUDGE SWART: Okay. That's in line with what you said before,

21 yes.

22 I have still one or two questions on the people locked up, or if

23 I may say so, in the elementary school, people who were there for some

24 time. Has any of them ever asked to you or to another civilian policeman

25 to be released?

Page 11190

1 A. As far as I know, no. I know that they asked some of the

2 policemen to bring them some photographs from the houses that they used

3 to live in.

4 JUDGE SWART: And if any one of them would have asked that to

5 you, "please let me go," would you have allowed that?

6 A. Well, I don't know how I would have reacted at the time.

7 JUDGE SWART: Was it you who had the power to decide these

8 matters? Or was there a higher-up authority?

9 A. Well, no, I didn't have the authority to make such decisions.

10 JUDGE SWART: So who was it then? Who was the authority

11 competent to decide on the release of these people?

12 A. At the time, I was ordered to protect them from the mujahedin and

13 from others who might harm them, and we were subordinated to the command

14 of the 306th. They could have appeared, or rather their security men

15 could have appeared, or perhaps someone from an even higher level. Our

16 duty was just to prevent the mujahedin, for example, from doing anything,

17 or perhaps others. Perhaps there were people who had suffered at the

18 hands of the Croats. And as a result, they might have wanted to do

19 something.

20 JUDGE SWART: [Previous interpretation continues] ... say that

21 these decisions were left with the army, that the army had to take the

22 position whether to release the person or not. I'm not sure exactly what

23 you are implying.

24 A. Well, I don't know. None of them asked to be released. And when

25 it was time to exchange them, they were exchanged. That's all I can say.

Page 11191

1 My duty was to provide security for them.

2 JUDGE SWART: Thank you very much for your answers.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have very few questions for

4 you. At the beginning you said that you were a policeman in Travnik.

5 What do you do now? Do you have a rank? What do you do in the police.

6 A. I'm a sergeant in the police in Travnik.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question: You said a

8 while ago that you were resubordinated to the 306th Brigade at a given

9 point in time. When this was done, was it possible for you to forward

10 reports to the civilian authorities in Travnik, or was it necessary for

11 the 306th Brigade to forward such reports.

12 A. As far as I can remember now, we never forwarded our reports to

13 the 306th, in spite of the fact that we were subordinated to them. We

14 always sent our reports to Travnik, to the headquarters of the public

15 security station.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

17 Does Defence have any questions, any additional questions for the

18 witness? We have another five minutes left.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions, Mr.

20 President.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Benjamin.

22 MS. BENJAMIN: Mr. President, we have just three questions.

23 Further cross-examination by Ms. Benjamin:

24 Q. In answer to Justice Swart a while ago, you said your duty was to

25 prevent the mujahedin from doing anything. Could you elaborate for me,

Page 11192

1 how were you supposed to prevent them? What were you supposed to do?

2 A. We were guarding the civilians who were inside, and it was our

3 duty to protect them, not just from the mujahedin but from anyone who

4 might want to do something to them. It was our duty to prevent anything

5 being done to them to the extent that this was possible.

6 I can remember one incident, only one incident. I think one

7 mujahedin wanted to get in. I wasn't there, my colleagues were. The

8 situation was a little tense. But they prevented him from entering. I

9 think there was only one such mujahedin.

10 Q. And in response to Judge Rasoazanany and I think Ms. Residovic,

11 you spoke about the Vlasic incident and the fact that you were instructed

12 to avoid conflicts. And you said that they settled accounts with them.

13 They settled accounts with the mujahedins. Could you explain for the

14 benefit of the Trial Chamber what you mean when you say "they settled

15 accounts." Who settled accounts? How were the accounts settled and why?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. But my learned

18 colleague has quoted the witness and said he said that someone settled

19 accounts with the mujahedin. However, with regard to Mount Vlasic, I'd

20 be grateful if my learned colleague could say when the witness made such

21 a statement because I don't remember this being said before the Chamber.

22 MS. BENJAMIN: Page 67, line 2 of the transcript.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What is the

24 question that you would like to ask.

25 MS. BENJAMIN:

Page 11193

1 Q. I think my colleague probably didn't remember that you did

2 indicate the bodies -- soldiers who had died, and as a result of that

3 your instructions were that you were to try to avoid as much conflict as

4 possible. Am I correct?

5 A. As far as I can remember, I answered that question. And I said

6 that we were told not to engage in a conflict with them. We were told to

7 deal with the situation in a calm way. I mentioned Vlasic. I mentioned

8 the civilian police who were guarding the relay on Vlasic, and we had

9 been captured. There were men who were killed. We didn't have enough

10 trained policemen. Is that sufficient?

11 Q. Yes. And then you continued by saying "we settled accounts with

12 them." And I believe you were referring to the mujahedins.

13 A. I didn't perhaps say that we settled accounts with them. I said

14 that -- how should I put it? They didn't exactly respect the law, but

15 during a certain period, I can't remember the year, many of them were

16 arrested. They left the country. They were driven away, et cetera. But

17 I don't know what I was speaking about, but that's something I mentioned.

18 Q. Thank you. And this would be my last question to you: I think

19 you still have it with you, Prosecution Exhibit 204. Number 7 under the

20 order it, says "Individual movement by armed persons must be stopped and

21 these persons disarmed and registered." Could you please elaborate for

22 me or clarify if the mujahedins would have been considered as armed

23 persons, would they have been considered as part of that group there?

24 Would they have fallen in that category?

25 A. Well, they should have fallen into that category. So, yes.

Page 11194

1 Q. Yes, they should have fallen into that category. I agree with

2 you. And were they disarmed? Was the order obeyed?

3 A. As a rule, we would try to stop them. Our men would try to stop

4 them, but they would refuse to stop. While they were passing by in their

5 vehicles, they would just continue.

6 Q. So the order was not carried out in full.

7 A. A minute ago I said that as far as they were concerned, we were

8 told to avoid engaging in conflicts with them.

9 MS. BENJAMIN: Thank you. That will be all, Mr. President.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if I have been

11 following the procedure correctly, I think that the party calling the

12 witness has the right to ask the last questions. I just have one

13 question for the witness, with your leave.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Go ahead.

15 Further examination by Ms. Residovic:

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Mr. Jusic, with regard to the last question put to you by my

18 learned colleague and in relation to item 7 in the document mentioned,

19 could you tell us whether you registered and informed your superiors in

20 the Travnik police and administration about the movement of these

21 foreigners?

22 A. Well, to the extent that this was possible for us at the time, we

23 did this.

24 Q. Would you still give the same reasons that you have given to the

25 Chamber? Would you still say why you didn't use force?

Page 11195

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This concludes your testimony

3 in the courtroom. Thank you for answering the questions put to you by

4 all the parties and the Judges. I wish you a good trip home, and I will

5 now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am turning to the Defence.

9 We have two witnesses scheduled for tomorrow. How will we be proceeding

10 in order to complete the examination of these witnesses at 1.45 tomorrow.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, so far, I had said

12 that the examination of the witnesses would depend on the length of the

13 cross-examination. But as you have noticed, my learned colleagues from

14 the Prosecution used up more time than we did. And I think that I could

15 answer this question if my colleagues from the Prosecution can also

16 answer the same question. I would try to limit the examination-in-chief

17 for both witnesses and reduce the length of the examination by half an

18 hour. They were supposed to testify for an hour and a half, and I will

19 do my best to ensure that their examination-in-chief doesn't last more

20 than an hour. If we could hear what the Prosecution has to say, we might

21 be able to see whether we could conclude with their testimony tomorrow.

22 If it's not possible to conclude with these two witnesses tomorrow, then

23 I would not try to reduce the length of my examination-in-chief.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. I am now

25 addressing the Prosecution. You have heard what the Defence said.

Page 11196

1 Defence counsel could examine each witness for one hour tomorrow. But in

2 such a case, the Prosecution should proceed in the same manner. In

3 total, that would amount to four hours. And as you know, we only have 3

4 hours and 45 minutes, effectively. And that's a problem already. If you

5 all go to the crux of the matter, we might be able to finish with these

6 witnesses tomorrow.

7 Mr. Mundis, what would you say?

8 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution will

9 certainly endeavour to not consume longer in cross-examining the witness

10 than the direct examination. But as Your Honours are well aware, it's

11 very difficult for us to predict how long it will take us to

12 cross-examine the witness both because we have only a very limited amount

13 of information as to what the witness will testify about prior to their

14 testimony; that is, we have their very brief Rule 65 ter summaries in the

15 annex B, number one.

16 Number two, of course, the fact that the witness might take an

17 hour on direct and an hour on cross, it's very difficult for us to

18 predict how long the re-examination might be or questions from Your

19 Honours. So it's all very, very difficult to predict. We certainly

20 don't purposefully consume great periods of time in our

21 cross-examination. We're doing the best we can with the information that

22 we have prior to the testimony of the witnesses.

23 The only other point I would simply ask at this point, Mr.

24 President, in terms of planning: If the Chamber were of the view that we

25 need to finish both witnesses tomorrow, we would be grateful for any

Page 11197

1 indications that might put us in a situation where we're sitting later

2 than we're planned to sit tomorrow, again, simply for planning purposes

3 as we did last Thursday where we sat much longer than the schedule. We

4 would appreciate it if the Chamber could give us any indications of

5 whether or not that might be an option. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. If we're not able to

7 finish with the second witness tomorrow by 1.45, it will be necessary to

8 continue examining this witness on Monday. At the moment, what is the

9 Defence's schedule for next week?

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, could we go into

11 private session, please.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, let's go into private

13 session.

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12 [Open session]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are in public session. Now

14 that we are in public session, I inform you that we are adjourning, and

15 we shall recommence tomorrow at 9.00 a.m.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.03 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Friday, the 5th day of

18 November, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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