Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12657

1 Wednesday, 1 December 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Case

8 Number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir

9 Kubura.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we have the appearances for

11 the Prosecution, please.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your

13 Honours, counsel and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

14 Prosecution, Mr. Waespi, Daryl Mundis, and our case manager, Andres

15 Vatter.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 Can we have the appearances for the Defence, please.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President, good

19 morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina

20 Residovic, lead counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Muriel Cauvin,

21 legal assistant.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 And the other Defence team.

24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

25 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Mr.

Page 12658

1 Mulalic, legal assistant -- Nermin Mulalic, legal assistant.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At today's hearing of the 1st

3 of December, the Chamber bids good morning to all those present. The

4 representatives of the Prosecution, the Defence, who are all present; the

5 accused, and all the personnel in this courtroom.

6 I understand Mr. Bourgon wants to take the floor and I give you

7 the floor.

8 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Good morning, Madam Judge. Good

9 morning, Your Honour. Good morning, Mr. President. Could we go into

10 private session, please, Mr. President.

11 [Private session]

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19 [Open session]

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in open session, Mr.

21 President.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. In open session,

23 let me say that we are waiting for the arrival of the witness.

24 [The witness entered court]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I would first

Page 12669

1 like to check that you are receiving the interpretation of what I am

2 saying into your own language. If so, say yes.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you and I understand

4 you.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You have been

6 called here as a witness for the Defence. Before you take the solemn

7 declaration, I'd be grateful if you could tell me your first and last

8 names, your date of birth, and your place of birth.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Ermin Husejnagic. I was

10 born on the 1st of January, 1960, in Zenica, in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Are you currently

12 employed? Do you hold a position of any kind? And if so, what is your

13 position?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm employed in the Ministry

15 of the Interior in the Zenica/Doboj Canton. I work as the chief in the

16 forensics department.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You work for the Ministry of

18 the Interior in the Zenica/Doboj Canton? In what capacity, because I

19 didn't receive the interpretation of that. What is your actual position?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am the chief of the forensics

21 department, which is part of the crime police of the Ministry of the

22 Interior in the Zenica and Doboj Canton.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. In 1992 and 1993,

24 that's over ten years ago, did you hold a position? And if so, what sort

25 of position and where?

Page 12670

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. At the time I also worked for

2 the police. But it was in the CSB of Zenica, the security services

3 centre in Zenica. I was involved in analysing mechanical traces at the

4 time.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Have you already

6 testified before in an international or national court about the events

7 in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992 and 1993, or is this the first time?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I will be

9 testifying about the events that took place in 1992 and 1993.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As a forensics expert, have you

11 ever testified before the courts in your country about crimes and

12 offences of various sorts?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have never testified about war

14 crimes.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But have you ever testified

16 about ordinary crimes, common law crimes?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have testified on a number

18 of occasions with regard to such crimes.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could you please

20 read out the solemn declaration.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to

Page 12671

1 Defence counsel for the examination-in-chief, I would like to provide you

2 with some information. You've told me that you have already testified

3 before local courts as an expert, so you have met with the sort of

4 questions that an expert witness might be asked. The procedure we follow

5 here is different from the procedure followed in your country, but you

6 will here have to answer questions that will first be put to you by

7 Defence counsel, whom you have certainly met; they are to your left. The

8 examination-in-chief should take between an hour and an hour and a half.

9 I hope it will be less than an hour and a half.

10 After that stage the Prosecution, who are to your right, will

11 conduct their cross-examination. The questions they put to you will be

12 put to you to verify your testimony and to clarify some of the answers

13 that you've provided to Defence counsel. Once this stage has been

14 completed, Defence counsel may re-examine you.

15 Then the three Judges, who are sitting before you, and this must

16 be the case in your country, too, may ask you other questions. As a

17 rule, the Judges ask questions either to clarify your answers or they

18 base their questions on the documents shown to you by the parties or they

19 ask a witness questions because they feel there are certain gaps that

20 need to be filled.

21 Once the Judges have asked you questions and you have answered

22 these questions, the parties may ask you additional questions. So this

23 is how we will be proceeding, but you are certainly not very surprised by

24 what I have told you, since you must be familiar with such procedure.

25 I also want to point out two other things. As you have taken the

Page 12672

1 solemn declaration, you should not give false testimony. A witness could

2 be prosecuted for having given false testimony. I would also like to

3 remind you that if when answering a question you believe that your answer

4 could be used against you at a subsequent date, could be used to

5 prosecute you at a subsequent date, you may refuse to answer the

6 question. You have this right. A witness has the right not to answer

7 certain questions, but in such an exceptional case it is possible for the

8 Trial Chamber to oblige you to answer the question, but you are granted a

9 form of immunity. This is a very particular situation, but I wanted to

10 inform you of it.

11 Certain technical matters will also be discussed. If you feel

12 the question is too complicated, ask the party putting the question to

13 you to rephrase it. We don't have any written documents, so your oral

14 testimony is what is important. If you don't understand a question, ask

15 the party putting it to you to rephrase the question. If you feel that

16 there are any difficulties, inform us of the fact.

17 Having provided you with this information, I will now give the

18 floor to the Defence.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

20 WITNESS: ERMIN HUSEJNAGIC

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Husejnagic.

24 A. Good morning.

25 Q. In addition to the information the Presiding Judge has just

Page 12673

1 provided you with, I would like to add something else. We both speak the

2 same language and you might want to answer my questions as soon as I put

3 them to you, but it's necessary for my questions and your answers to be

4 interpreted to enable everyone in the courtroom to follow us. This is

5 why I would be grateful if you could make a brief pause after I have put

6 my question to you, and only then should you answer the question. Have

7 you understood me?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, where do you live right now?

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 Q. In response to a question put to you by the Presiding Judge you

13 told us about your job, but tell me what is your profession?

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Given your position, I will ask

15 the registrar to make an order to delete the name of the street that you

16 live in.

17 Mr. Registrar, could you prepare an order to delete the witness's

18 address that appears in lines 23 and 24.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a mechanical engineer by

20 profession.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Tell me something about your educational background.

23 A. After I had finished primary school I graduated from the

24 mechanical engineering university in 1997. In 1997 I enrolled in the

25 university for mechanical engineering and I graduated in 1993.

Page 12674

1 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, as a mechanical engineer, what sort of work did

2 you do before the war?

3 A. Before the war, I worked in the Zenica steelworks. I worked on

4 mechanical design -- in the mechanical design field. This was in the

5 work organisation -- in a work organisation in Zenica.

6 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, at any point in time did you start working for a

7 different company and where did you find employment if that was the case?

8 A. Towards the end of 1991 and at the very beginning of 1992 I left

9 the Zenica steelworks and went to the Zenica CSB, security services

10 centre.

11 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, before you started performing these duties or at

12 any other point in time did you serve in an army before the war, and if

13 so, did you have a rank of any kind?

14 A. After I have graduated, I went to the army, I went to the JNA,

15 the Yugoslav People's Army, and I didn't have a rank of any kind.

16 Q. When at the end of 1991 and at the beginning of 1992 you moved to

17 the CSB in Zenica, what duties did you perform there, or rather, did you

18 obtain any other professional knowledge that related to your duties?

19 A. Well, on the very first day in the CSB, in Zenica, I went to

20 Sarajevo, to the school in Vrace, to specialise there. This training was

21 -- involved training in the field of forensics.

22 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, where were you when the war broke out in April

23 1992?

24 A. I was in Vraca in the school up until the 4th of April. On the

25 4th of April the blockade of Sarajevo started and it was no longer

Page 12675

1 possible to reach Sarajevo. And it was particularly difficult to reach

2 Vrace.

3 Q. You said that you were an expert in the CSB. Who was your

4 superior and which body was your superior body?

5 A. The chief of the forensics department was my superior, and the

6 body concerned was the CSB.

7 Q. And in 1992 and in 1993, whose authority was the CSB under?

8 A. It was under the Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina.

10 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, at any point in time in 1992 or 1993 did the BH

11 army -- was the BH army a body that had authority over the CSB, or rather

12 over the civilian police?

13 A. No. The BH army never had authority over the CSB.

14 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, could you now tell me something about the

15 organisation of the CSB. Or rather, how was work within the CSB divided?

16 A. The CSB had a crime police department, it had a uniformed police

17 department, and it had an administration department, which had no

18 authority. So their employees didn't have police authority.

19 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, could you tell us who the members of the

20 uniformed police were.

21 A. Well, the members of the uniform police were police inspectors in

22 the headquarters and then the support unit, a special unit, and all the

23 policemen in the police stations covered by the CSB.

24 Q. Could you now tell me how the crime police department was

25 organised.

Page 12676

1 A. The crime police department was organised on the basis of

2 departments. Within the crime police department there was the department

3 for offences, for commercial crime, and there was the forensics

4 department.

5 Q. As a CSB employee, which department were you a member of?

6 A. I was a member of the forensics department.

7 Q. In response to a question put to you by the Presiding Judge, you

8 said that you were an expert in mechanical traces. Tell me, what does

9 the term -- what do the terms "mechanical traces" mean? What sort of

10 work does this involve?

11 A. Well, mechanical traces means the traces left by various tools,

12 usually the traces left when burglaries were committed, traces on windows

13 or doors. And then this identification was called identifying signs on

14 certain items. Usually vehicles were stolen, so we would investigate the

15 traces left on vehicles. Then there were traces on various kinds of

16 locks, safe locks or ordinary locks. The purpose was to determine how

17 these locks had been picked.

18 Q. In addition to your work in the field of mechanical traces, did

19 you become involved in any other work? Did you become involved in

20 analysing traces of another kind? And if so, could you tell us which

21 field -- which other field you started working in.

22 A. Later on I became specialised in investigating traces left by

23 firearms.

24 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, could you tell me how many individuals worked in

25 the forensics department, which is where you, too, worked.

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Page 12678

1 A. In 1992 and 1993 -- in 1992 and 1993, since there are a lot of

2 workers who were coming and going because of the conditions that

3 prevailed in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the number of workers fluctuated,

4 but there were always at least ten employees.

5 Q. In your opinion, what sort of qualifications did these people

6 have, these people who worked in the forensics department? What sort of

7 professional level did they have?

8 A. All the employees in the forensics department had a basic form of

9 training at least. And some of the employees had also specialised in

10 certain fields.

11 Q. In 1992 and 1993, in which fields did you have experts and what

12 did they specialise in?

13 A. I'll -- Djaferovic Izet was the chief, the head of the

14 department. In addition to his basic training, he had specialised in

15 dactyloscopics and graphology. Dactyloscopics in English would be

16 fingerprints.

17 Q. The interpretation was not correct. The witness pointed out that

18 the word "dactyloscopija" was not interpreted correctly. Obviously the

19 witness can understand English.

20 A. No, but I know it should be "fingerprints" in English.

21 Q. If I have understood you correctly, Mr. Dzaferovic, apart from

22 having basic training in forensics had specialised in the field you have

23 just mentioned. In which other fields were there employees who had

24 specialist knowledge?

25 A. Mr. Hadzic Redzo, apart from having basic forensics training, he

Page 12679

1 had specialised knowledge, too. Hadzic, Redzo. He had specialised -- he

2 was a professor of biology and chemistry. He had specialised in

3 biological chemical traces and in fingerprinting, too. As far as Redzo

4 Hadzic is concerned, he was the most senior employee we had. He also

5 founded a collection for the CSB.

6 And maybe I should tell you what this monocollection is. I

7 should clarify this. It's a collection of individual fingerprints of

8 individuals who had been processed, that is to say the fingerprints of

9 individuals who had committed crimes at the time. I had specialised in

10 mechanical traces.

11 Q. Thank you. Tell me, which area was the CSB active in, or rather,

12 where did your forensics department carry out analysis in the fields that

13 you covered?

14 A. The CSB operated in the area along the Bosna River, Davidovici,

15 Zepce, Zenica, Kakanj; and in the Lasva valley, Busovaca, Vitez, Travnik,

16 Novi Travnik, Bugojno, Donji and Gornji Vakuf. And in that same area,

17 the forensics department carried out its work.

18 Q. In the police administrations of these various places that you

19 have just mentioned, did you have forensics departments or did you have

20 other individuals who could carry out some of the investigations that

21 were required to establish certain facts?

22 A. In public security stations, we didn't have forensic departments,

23 we just had forensic technicians who would process crimes within the

24 terms of reference of the basic courts. That was the most frequent

25 situation.

Page 12680

1 Q. Tell me, Mr. Husejnagic, on whose instructions and how were crime

2 experts or forensic equipment used and engaged?

3 A. The most frequent situation was through the operations officer in

4 the security services centre who would, after having been informed about

5 a particular event, form depending on the kind of offence an

6 investigating team. So depending on the type of act, for instance

7 whether it's manslaughter, theft, or the like, a particular number of

8 specialists would be engaged for the investigation.

9 Q. Before the war and during 1992 and 1993, what kind of equipment

10 did the forensic department have available to it at the Zenica CSB?

11 A. The forensic equipment of CSB Zenica was quite appropriate and it

12 had all the necessary equipment and material for carrying out all

13 investigations.

14 Q. Those resources and equipment in those days, that is the

15 beginning of 1993, were they also available to the military police of the

16 3rd Corps that was situated in Zenica?

17 A. In view of the specific nature of these resources which are part

18 of the forensic department, the forensic experts of the military could

19 not have the same kind of resources and equipment.

20 Q. To the best of your knowledge, what could they have had at the

21 beginning of 1993 to be able to do their work?

22 A. Apart for photographic equipment, the rest such as dactiloscopic

23 equipment or any other equipment, that is equipment for fingerprint

24 analysis, could not be obtained in Zenica.

25 Q. In view of this, tell me please: Was there any cooperation in

Page 12681

1 1993 between the military police of the 3rd Corps and the CSB, and was

2 your forensic equipment used for certain investigative activities when

3 these were done by military personnel? Do you know whether any such

4 cooperation was established?

5 A. Very frequently -- most frequently employees from the forensic

6 department would assist the military police, mainly due to the specific

7 resources that were required and the specific expertise of the experts.

8 Q. Tell me, Mr. Husejnagic, when this investigating team is formed,

9 depending on the type of offence and when it does its on-site inspection

10 for the serious crimes for which you are equipped, who is in charge of

11 the investigation?

12 A. The investigating judge is in charge of the investigation. He is

13 the head of the investigating team.

14 Q. Who issues assignments to your employees, that is to your

15 specialists on site? Who gives instructions as to the kind of

16 investigative procedures that the CSB will engage in when you do your

17 on-site inspection?

18 A. The head of the investigating team, which means the investigating

19 judge.

20 Q. Once you have completed your part of the job, that is you do what

21 you have been instructed to do by the investigating judge, who do you

22 submit your findings to?

23 A. We would submit our findings to the court that this judge comes

24 from.

25 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, at some point in time to the best of your

Page 12682

1 recollection, that is in January 1993, did your forensic department and

2 inspectors of the security services, were they requested to do some

3 analysis in connection with the death of certain persons from Dusina

4 whose bodies were brought to Zenica?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, were you part of that team that did the on-site

7 inspection?

8 A. Yes, I was a member of that team.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A small point of

10 interpretation. In your language you put the question to the witness:

11 The death or the murder, because in the French interpretation we heard

12 "murder" or "assassination." What was your question in your language?

13 In English it is death and in French it is murder. I don't know if it's

14 going directly from the B/C/S or through the English. So could you

15 please ask the witness the question again.

16 Just a moment, please.

17 The Prosecution. Yes.

18 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President, there is a similar issue.

19 Perhaps it's an interpretation issue. The witness was asked about an

20 on-site inspection, and if he could clarify -- it's the first time we

21 hear that, that there was an on-site inspection. That's obviously an

22 important issue. What does that mean? Was that the team which was

23 pulled together? That's called the on-site inspection team, or did they

24 in fact go to the crime scene? I'm just not sure how this term comes

25 into play, because that's not what the witness said. It was formulated

Page 12683

1 as a question.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence, could you please

3 ask the witness to clarify so that the translation in all three languages

4 corresponds.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, let me cut up my previous question into several

7 simpler questions. So please answer them for me. At any point in time

8 were you a member of the investigating team which was asked to do some

9 examinations at the morgue in Zenica?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Who was in charge of those examinations that were carried out at

12 the morgue in Zenica?

13 A. The judge of the military court, Mr. Mirsad Strika was in charge

14 and another judge of the military court was present Vlado Adamovic.

15 Q. Tell me, you're going to the place, that is to the morgue of the

16 hospital in Zenica. Was it connected to the arrival of the bodies of

17 persons who had been killed in the village of Dusina and who had been

18 transported to the hospital in Zenica?

19 A. Yes, it was linked to that, to what you have just said.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I think that

21 everything has been clearly interpreted, because in answer to your

22 question I never spoke about murder; I spoke about persons who were

23 killed. So in our language, "killing" is death that occurs in battle.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In French the word is "tuer,"

25 in English, "killed." Perhaps the most precise term would be persons who

Page 12684

1 died. Because in "killed" there is a connotation of murder. So you have

2 the choice: Died, killed, or assassinated. So it is up to you to use

3 the most appropriate term.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I be more precise?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Yes, please do, but I think in word -- in the war we use

7 "killed."

8 A. In the police jargon we use the words nastradali, which means

9 those who suffered death.

10 Q. I think the Judge has given us some instructions now and we will

11 bear this in mind to make sure that the word we use can be adequately

12 interpreted into other languages. Thank you.

13 You have just given us the name of the investigating judge and of

14 another judge of the district military court who were present. I'm not

15 sure the names came out clearly. Could you repeat who was the head of

16 the team among the judges and which judge of the district military court

17 was also present.

18 A. I said a judge of the military court was in charge and his name

19 is Mirsad Strika. And also present for a part of those activities was

20 another judge from the military court, Vlado Adamovic.

21 Q. Who gave you specific assignments with respect to this particular

22 case as to the steps you need to take?

23 A. Judge Strika Mirsad.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I should like to show the

25 witness, with the help of the usher, Your Honour, a few documents. These

Page 12685

1 are documents that we showed earlier on. There's only one new document.

2 We have a sufficient number of copies for Your Honours and for my learned

3 friends.

4 Q. Would you be kind enough to look at the document number 1. It is

5 document P332, Exhibit P332. Would you please tell me whether this is a

6 document of the security services in Zenica.

7 A. Yes, it is. The initials in the lower-left corner, "SCSA," are

8 the initials of the person who actually drafted the document, but the

9 chief of the centre signed it. "SE" stands for the initials of one of

10 the employees of the CSB who was present during those activities.

11 Q. Tell me, Mr. Husejnagic, is this the standard format of a

12 document whereby the CSB submits findings to the court after having

13 carried instructions of the court [as interpreted]?

14 A. As the military court had requested certain investigations to be

15 done this was the most customary way in which these documents would be

16 submitted to the court.

17 Q. At the bottom of this document we see attachments and annexes,

18 and four are listed. Tell me, the annexes listed in this document, are

19 they the reports of authorised bodies compiled by them upon the request

20 of the court or are they something else? At the bottom of the document,

21 we just see the word "annexes."

22 A. Yes. I could perhaps through the signatures identify the

23 individuals.

24 Q. We will come to those documents later. But in connection with

25 this particular document, is it customary to forward as annexes the

Page 12686

1 results of the investigations that you conducted, be they forensic or

2 other analyses?

3 A. The annexes reflect the activities that we engaged in.

4 Q. Thank you. At the bottom it says "photo record." Tell me, who

5 photographed the persons in the morgue in Zenica? Who prepared the photo

6 documents in this particular case?

7 A. In this particular case I took the photographs of all the ten

8 victims and bodies and I think that -- those documents should bear my

9 signature. And as we worked as a team, there should be the signature

10 also of Hadzic Redzo, another employee of our department.

11 Q. Tell me, Mr. Husejnagic, were those photographs in colour or

12 black and white?

13 A. These were black and white photographs.

14 Q. Will you now look at the document number 2. This is Prosecution

15 Exhibit 334 [as interpreted]. Do you know the person who compiled this

16 note? Sorry, 333. In line 24, there's an error in the exhibit number.

17 The exhibit number is 333.

18 A. I do know. Should I answer your question? I know the person

19 since 1991. That is when I started working in the CSB up until last

20 year. Last year, this person passed away.

21 Q. Tell me, was Redzo Hadzic was also present during this

22 examination in the hospital in Zenica?

23 A. Yes. Redzo Hadzic and myself did most of the work involved in

24 this event.

25 Q. You wanted to say something before I put my question to you. I

Page 12687

1 interrupted you. If there is anything you would like to add, please add

2 it.

3 A. As far as Redzo Hadzic is concerned when I was at the forensic

4 department, I was his boss. That's why I know him.

5 Q. Thank you. Have a look at document number 3, please. The

6 document number, the exhibit number is P334. Do you know the person who

7 compiled this document?

8 A. Yes, I do, from before 1991. And to this day I can even

9 recognise the signature because even today I am this person's boss.

10 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, is that the same person whose initials you

11 recognised in the attached document and you said that this person had

12 probably drafted the attached document?

13 A. Yes, that's the person whose initials are "ES" for Enes Saric.

14 Q. Was Mr. Enes Saric also at the site where some of the

15 investigation was carried out under the supervision of Judge Strika?

16 A. Yes. Enes was involved in that work. He was an inspector, or

17 rather we called these duties the duties of an operations officer.

18 Q. Have a look at document number 5 now -- I apologise, under number

19 4. Could you tell me whose signature you can see here. Do you know

20 these persons?

21 A. Expert analysis performed by Redzo Hadzic and then there is the

22 person I have already identified, Enes Saric.

23 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, although you have already spoken about

24 specialists in your forensics department, could you tell me whether Redzo

25 Hadzic had any specialist knowledge in order to examine chemical and

Page 12688

1 other traces.

2 A. Redzo Hadzic was a professor of chemistry and biology. And in

3 addition to the basic training he had, he had also specialised in

4 biological and chemical traces and in fingerprinting.

5 Q. Please have a look at page number 1. Have a look at the last

6 sentence in the B/C/S version of the analysis. It says that it was

7 requested that it be established whether there were particles of gun

8 powder in the paraffin samples that were sent. Can you find that

9 sentence?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. A specialist in the CSB who gave you this task, who made this

12 request?

13 A. The judge from the military court --

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Please have a look at page 2 of this analysis. And in the middle

17 of the second paragraph it says that the reaction in the paraffin test --

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. The name of the

19 judge doesn't appear in line 20, page 30. The witness mentioned the

20 name. He said it was Strika Mirsad, the judge of the district military

21 court.

22 Q. I apologise for interrupting you.

23 In the second paragraph on the second page you can see something

24 that concerns the corpse of Pero Ljubicic. And here one sees that the

25 reaction on both -- the reaction of the paraffin test on both hands of

Page 12689

1 Ljubicic Pero was negative. Since you were involved in the duties you

2 have mentioned in the course of the war in the CSB, I want to know if you

3 have any knowledge that in the course of combat civilians were killed,

4 too.

5 A. Yes, there were such cases.

6 Q. Thank you. Once you had carried out the tasks you were ordered

7 to carry out by the investigating judge, who would you forward your

8 reports to?

9 A. We would forward our reports to the court, to the courts where

10 the judge who had issued the order worked.

11 Q. You said that you personally, together with Redzo Hadzic, carried

12 out most of the work in the course of that analysis, and you said that

13 you took the photographs yourself. Tell me whether the photographs you

14 took reflected the wounds on the bodies that you photographed.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In addition to these photographs, did anyone else examine and

17 describe the wounds on those bodies?

18 A. Yes. This was done by a pathologist, Dr. Faruk Turkic. He was a

19 pathologist who worked in the Zenica hospital.

20 Q. Given the work that you did, do you know whether the pathologist

21 Dr. Turkic had specialist knowledge and was experienced in such work?

22 A. At the time he was the only doctor who worked for the high court

23 or the military court. He was the only doctor who did such work. And I

24 think that he was quite experienced.

25 Q. Tell me whether Dr. Turkic was also present when the

Page 12690

1 investigating judge was carrying out his work in the Zenica hospital

2 morgue.

3 A. Yes, he was present. We were all present, all those so far

4 mentioned were present.

5 Q. Could you now have a look at document number 5. Mr. Husejnagic,

6 could you tell me drafted this document.

7 A. Dr. Faruk Turkic compiled this document.

8 Q. Who issued an order requesting that Mr. Turkic carry out this

9 specialist work?

10 A. The Judge Mirsad Strika did.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 To whom did the pathologist have to submit his report on the

13 analysis, carried out in accordance with the order issued by the judge?

14 A. Well, as in our case, to the institution where the judge worked,

15 and that was the Zenica military court.

16 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, since you were at the site, you were in the

17 hospital where you performed some of your duties and you took photographs

18 of all the bodies, tell me whether you were able to determine -- whether

19 you were able to notice the cause of death.

20 A. A forensics expert could provide you with the best answer, but

21 obviously it was a result of gunshot wounds.

22 Q. When examining them and taking the photographs, or rather later

23 when developing the photographs did you notice anything on those bodies

24 that was different from the sort of wounds that the bodies of those

25 killed in the course of combat usually had?

Page 12691

1 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Prosecution.

3 MR. WAESPI: Just an observation. This person here, the witness,

4 is obviously the head of the forensic department. And we've heard his

5 credential as a -- I think he had an engineering degree in mechanics.

6 I'm really not sure whether he had talk about the causes of death and how

7 it relates to other bodies, since he didn't -- clearly didn't perform any

8 autopsies on these bodies. So I would object to this question.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please carry on.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 Q. Could you please tell me, given the time which you examined [as

12 interpreted] and photographed the bodies of these individuals, were you

13 able to notice any differences between the wounds that these bodies had

14 and the wounds that you would see when you examined the bodies of other

15 individuals who had been killed in the course of combat?

16 A. My answer would be similar to the previous one. A forensics

17 expert would be in the best position to answer your question. But given

18 the knowledge that I had, I didn't notice anything that might indicate

19 that they had died as a result of being tortured.

20 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, in the course of 1993, were you ever in a

21 position to see other bodies that had been brought in from areas where

22 there had been fighting?

23 A. Well, even in the course of 1992 I was present during

24 investigations of quite serious crimes.

25 Q. Since you saw such corpses that had been brought in from areas

Page 12692

1 where there was fighting, tell me whether on the basis of what you could

2 see those bodies had wounds -- gunshot wounds that were similar to the

3 wounds that the bodies that you saw in the Zenica hospital morgue had.

4 A. Yes, the wounds were similar.

5 Q. Please have a look on page 6 in the B/C/S version of the document

6 drafted by Dr. Turkic. Have a look at the general conclusion.

7 A. Yes, I've had a look at that.

8 Q. Under item 2 it says that the entry wounds were inflicted by

9 fairly powerful weapons from a distance of more than 1 metre. Tell me,

10 when it says that the wounds were inflicted from a distance of over

11 1 metre, why is it necessary for this to be stated in such a finding and

12 what does it mean, since later on you also specialised in the field of

13 firearms?

14 A. Well, this statement was included because in the area around the

15 entry wounds no gunpowder particles were found. The traces of gunpowder

16 weren't found around the wounds on these corpses.

17 Q. My last question, Mr. Husejnagic, is: When you photographed the

18 bodies, were you able to find traces of gunpowder particles on the

19 photographs that you developed?

20 A. As far as I can remember, no, I wasn't able to find such traces.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Husejnagic.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have now

23 concluded my examination-in-chief of this witness.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. It is now 10.35.

25 We will have our break and we will resume at 11.00.

Page 12693

1 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has completed their

4 examination-in-chief. The other Defence team, do they have any

5 questions?

6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions. Thank you, Mr.

7 President.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, I shall give the

9 floor to the Prosecution for their cross-examination.

10 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much, Mr. President.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi:

12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Husejnagic.

13 A. Good morning.

14 Q. I have a few questions for you. It shouldn't take too long. Let

15 me go first to this paraffin test, as it's called. And you were asked a

16 few questions about this test, or rather the result. And this

17 Exhibit P341, which is in the bundle you have received number 4. We

18 don't need the document. I just want to ask you: You personally

19 conducted this paraffin test?

20 A. No, I didn't. I didn't do that analysis. The document is signed

21 by my colleague at the time, Redzo Hadzic.

22 Q. So it was him who conducted it?

23 A. Yes, he did it.

24 Q. Are you familiar with the --

25 A. Maybe I could specify. Part of the preparatory duties I was

Page 12694

1 involved in, that is taking the paraffin tests. But the analysis of the

2 tests, the results, was done by the signatory of this document.

3 Q. Are you familiar with the technique of the paraffin test?

4 A. Yes, I am familiar with it.

5 Q. Just a couple of questions in relation to that. So the way I

6 understand the test, you are looking, or the person who conducts the test

7 looks whether there are traces of firearms or gunpowder on the skin or

8 clothes of a body. Is that correct?

9 A. Could you please repeat the question.

10 Q. Yes. The way to conduct this test, the way I understand you, but

11 please correct me, is you are looking for traces, for residual elements

12 of gunpowder on the skin or the surface of a body. That's the starting

13 point for this test?

14 A. In the case of paraffin tests, we are looking for gunpowder

15 particle traces on the hands, on the hands of certain persons, depending

16 on the event.

17 Q. And that would mean, then, if you find any such traces that the

18 person has fired a firearm. Is that correct?

19 A. One cannot be 100 per cent explicit about it. There may be a

20 certain contact with a firearm, something close to a firearm.

21 Q. And that would also leave these traces?

22 A. I'm afraid I don't understand. After what? Once you do the

23 paraffin test, there should be no traces left where the paraffin test was

24 done, if that is what you meant.

25 Q. Not exactly. You said that traces are left either if somebody

Page 12695

1 has shot a firearm; or second, and that's a clarification by you, if

2 somebody came in certain contact with a firearm, something close to a

3 firearm. So in these two situations traces may be found on the hand. Is

4 that correct?

5 A. The task of the forensic expert is to analyse chemical traces.

6 But I do have certain knowledge about it. So if necessary, I can provide

7 a clarification. So in this case the question is: Who does this type of

8 analysis?

9 Q. Yes. But let me just clarify what you told us before. When

10 there are traces on somebody's hands, either this person has shot a

11 firearm himself or he came -- and those are your words: "He came into

12 certain contact with a firearm, something close to a firearm."

13 So those are the two situations. Is that correct?

14 A. I need to explain the process of firing a shot, and this is

15 linked to ballistics, and that would need to be explained. What is the

16 distance? What type of particles are left on the hands, how they are

17 carried, et cetera. But this is the duty of a forensic expert for

18 chemical traces.

19 Q. Very well. That won't be necessary.

20 Let me ask you, if somebody shot a firearm, so obviously there

21 may be some traces on his hand, and later within an hour he surrendered,

22 was captured, and executed, if you then find the bodies and examine the

23 bodies, there may still be traces on the hands of this person because he

24 has fired a firearm before he was captured. Is that a fair assessment,

25 what I am saying?

Page 12696

1 A. The answer would be similar to my previous answer. The question

2 should be put to the person carrying out the analysis. The only

3 possibility would be for me as a -- I don't know, if I was here in the

4 capacity of a forensic expert then I might be able to say something.

5 Q. Let me ask you a different question. For how long do the traces

6 remain on the hands after a person fired a -- fired a gun or got into

7 contact. How long thereafter the firing are you as a specialist able to

8 determine: Yes, we do a chemical test; yes, there are traces?

9 A. It depends on a number of factors, but again, this is a question

10 that is identical to the previous one. I am a forensic expert for

11 mechanical traces and ballistics, currently.

12 Q. Now, the bodies you have examined, you were part of that team

13 pursuing these paraffin tests. The date you examined it was the 28th of

14 January or the 29th of January. If you look at P341. Again, this is

15 your number 4. Can you tell us again the date this test was conducted.

16 A. On the 28th of January were the following acts done: Photographs

17 were taken of all ten bodies, paraffin tests, and index fingerprints of

18 some persons who could not be identified by persons who were doing the

19 identification.

20 Q. So you're saying the 28th. But if you look at just a document I

21 referred you to, "Date 29 January, 1993. Subject: Re: Paraffin test,

22 expert analysis." It starts on 29th January, 1993. "Ten unknown bodies

23 brought from Dusina, Lasva," and so on, and so on. Perhaps you don't

24 recall, but here it seems to indicate that the tests were conducted on

25 the 29th.

Page 12697

1 A. We have to distinguish two stages: The paraffin test itself and

2 an analysis of the paraffin test. The paraffin test was done on the 28th

3 of January. And an analysis of those paraffin tests, or paraffin gloves,

4 as we call them -- perhaps I could explain the procedure to make it quite

5 clear to everyone, but again this is rather specific. The analysis was

6 done on the 29th. The test was carried out on the 28th of January and

7 then the analysis of the results was done the following day.

8 Q. Where were these tests carried out on the 28th? What was the

9 location? Was it also the morgue at the Zenica hospital or was it at a

10 different place?

11 A. No. In the laboratory of the MUP, that is the centre of security

12 services Zenica, in the chemical laboratory of that centre.

13 Q. Were you present when the bodies were brought in?

14 A. No. I was probably at my workplace in the security services

15 centre.

16 Q. So you were not present on the 28th when these bodies were

17 brought in.

18 A. I wasn't present in the morgue of the hospital. I was present in

19 Zenica. I think I was at my workplace.

20 Q. Anyway, do you know when the -- these persons, these ten persons,

21 deceased? Do you know the date?

22 A. I don't know. I think that the doctor made a rough assessment of

23 that date, but that was part of his assignment.

24 Q. If I tell you that the date was 26th of January that these people

25 deceased, can you now help us: If the paraffin test or the analysis was

Page 12698

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 12699

1 done two days later how long the traces would still be discoverable?

2 A. This time I will answer the question. If somebody is killed,

3 traces of gunpowder particles remain on the hands for quite a long time,

4 on condition that the body is not bathed or something like that.

5 Q. And you asked the expert can he quantify, what does he mean:

6 "Quite a long time"? Three days? A week? Perhaps longer? Perhaps

7 less?

8 A. Again this is part of chemical analysis. The gunpowder particles

9 that are found are quite resilient. The problem is to what extent they

10 will be preserved. The duration is up to the chemist. Most of these

11 products nitrates and -- nitrates are preserved for quite a long time.

12 Q. You're leaving it up into the air. Obviously, after two days

13 they were still visible. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Very well. And coming back to my earlier point, you cannot

16 really say whether the persons subject of these paraffin test who had

17 positive tests were not later, perhaps an hour, two, three, captured and

18 later executed. You cannot exclude that from a finding of a positive

19 paraffin test.

20 A. It's not up to me to make such an assessment.

21 Q. Thank you. Let's leave the paraffin test and let's talk about

22 the crime-scene investigation. I take it that during the war - and I'm

23 talking after you finished your education which was I understand stopped

24 on the 4th of April in Vrace in Sarajevo - did you conduct a lot of

25 investigations into violent deaths during the war period, let's say until

Page 12700

1 the end of 1995?

2 A. An innumerable number of cases.

3 Q. Now, did you go to the actual crime scene, the site, and look at

4 where the bodies, if there are bodies, are lying; look at the distances;

5 look at the location and perhaps make sketches? Did you do that?

6 A. No, we did not go on site because these happened in the area of

7 combat operations.

8 Q. But there must have been situations - just any situation, I'm not

9 talking about something specific - where you went to a crime scene and

10 investigated like policemen do. Are you telling us there was not a

11 single instance you went to a crime scene and conducted on-site

12 investigations?

13 A. I said that I conducted any number of investigations, but not in

14 the area of war operations.

15 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, with your leave, I would like to show

16 a witness a document which we have found in the last couple of days as

17 part of our searches. And it goes only to the credibility of this

18 witness of his previous answer. And unfortunately, I only gave it to the

19 Defence just before the break because I thought it wasn't possible. But

20 I would like to show him the document and I have sufficient copies I

21 believe for Your Honours. And perhaps the witness can tell us what this

22 document is all about, because it appears to contradict of what he just

23 said.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall give the floor to the

25 Defence.

Page 12701

1 According to our decision regarding documents that are produced

2 after the closing of the Prosecution case, the Prosecution can produce

3 documents only on two grounds. First, the credibility or to refresh the

4 memory of the witness. So you're telling us you have a document which

5 would allow you to check the credibility of the witness.

6 The Defence.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, pursuant to your

8 decision, we of course have no objection if the Prosecution has a

9 document that could challenge the credibility of this witness. However,

10 the Prosecution during the last break gave us a document which, according

11 to what the witness had just said, that he had attended any number of

12 on-site investigations, cannot contradict his statement. I think the

13 Prosecution has not laid the grounds for showing this document. So I

14 think this is not one of the cases you specified in your ruling.

15 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, with Your Honour's --

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The question of credibility

17 relates to which particular point? Because the Defence is telling us the

18 witness has said that he didn't do crime-scene inspections. Do you have

19 a document showing that he did? To what particular does your document

20 refer when it comes to credibility?

21 MR. WAESPI: Yes. He said -- the witness that he did not conduct

22 on-site investigations because of a war situation. And we have here a

23 document, it's a short one, which is titled: Sketch of the crime scene,

24 and it relates to the recovery of 27 dead bodies. And the witness -- it

25 dates 15th September, 1995. And it shows in detail what the witness did,

Page 12702

1 that he went to the crime scene; that he took very, very detailed

2 sketches. Perhaps he forgot about it. I would just like to show him the

3 document and ask his comment about that.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Wait a moment. I'll give you

5 the floor. You're telling us that you have a document, I see in the

6 English transcript, which is dated the 15th of September, 1995. That is

7 what the English transcript says, the 15th of September. And there's a

8 drawing of 27 bodies. And does this relate to the on-site inspection for

9 these persons that we're talking about or is it another on-site

10 inspection?

11 MR. WAESPI: It's another on-site inspection, something that the

12 witness has denied that he did. That's why I would like to show him

13 that.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the Defence.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you look at

16 page 41, line 20, the witness said: I was -- "attended an innumerable

17 number" of investigations, but did not carry out on-site inspections in

18 combat areas.

19 Therefore, a document from 1995 can be covered by these

20 innumerable on-site inspections that he has referred to, so I don't see

21 how it contradicts that he had said.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But the witness said, as

23 you yourself say on page 41, that he didn't go on site. But we have a

24 document showing the opposite, apparently.

25 Mr. Usher, before showing the document, the Judges wish to have a

Page 12703

1 look at it.

2 Show this document to the witness and we'll see what he can say.

3 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much.

4 Q. As you heard, Mr. Husejnagic, this is a document. You'll see it

5 because it appears that you signed it dated from 15th September, 1995.

6 And it's a location Oborci in Donji Vakuf. And perhaps you can tell us

7 how it came about that you made these very detailed drawings.

8 MR. WAESPI: This is the English translation. I don't think he

9 needs to say that. And, yes, that's the first page of ...

10 Q. And perhaps if you can tell us the title, what it says, in your

11 language.

12 A. The drawing of the on-site finding. This is a document that I

13 compiled, but this is an investigation that took place on the 15th of

14 September, 1995, after the cessation of hostilities in that area. I may

15 add, this particular case, we had here 27 captured persons from the area

16 of Kljuc, I think they were, who had been killed near the elementary

17 school in Oborci near Donji Vakuf. And the investigation was done on the

18 15th of September when there were no combat operations in that area.

19 Q. And can you tell us what you did? Did you -- is that the actual

20 scene where people were deceased? Because I see rifle bullets, and so

21 on, by a dead body. Was that the area which you believe was the crime

22 scene were these people were killed?

23 A. Are you referring to this event of the 15th of September, 1995?

24 Q. Yes. Did you find all these bullets on the ground by these

25 various bodies, as listed on page 2?

Page 12704

1 A. Well, it's not a matter of bullets. Under 1 there was a group of

2 77 cartridges, a group of cartridges. And there were seven 8.62 times 39

3 cartridges. And there were four bullets and the cartridges were of the

4 calibre that I have mentioned. I think everything is clear here. I

5 don't know what else I could clarify.

6 Q. And these bullets you found by the bodies?

7 A. The cartridges, on the whole, they are cartridges.

8 Q. Yes. You found those by the bodies?

9 A. Yes, I did.

10 Q. Now, why did you go there, to this scene?

11 A. Well, we were obeying the order issued by the judge. Idriz

12 Katkic, I think that's his name.

13 Q. And if you go to the last page of this document, just the last

14 page. Did you make this drawing yourself?

15 A. I think that I was helped by a forensics expert from Donji Vakuf,

16 Bagori Casim [phoen] as far as I can remember, but this is another event.

17 This is an on-site investigation after the cessation of hostilities. If

18 we compare this to this case -- well, at the time we were carrying out

19 investigations, some of the investigations, in the morgue of the Zenica

20 hospital. But we didn't go to the site. This was ordered by military

21 judges. And in 1995 I think the judge was Idriz Katkic. And in 1993 I

22 think the judge was Mirsad Strika.

23 Q. And just going back to this last page, I just see these four

24 bodies lying there. Am I correct? These signatures, four bodies, two in

25 the middle of the road and two other ones north-east of the first two

Page 12705

1 bodies. Am I reading it correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And what do these numbers mean? If you look at the body most

4 north, 37/95, what does that mean?

5 A. That's the number of the person who was killed. And he is

6 recorded in a list of unidentified bodies. This list was compiled by the

7 CSB.

8 Q. Do you know when these people were killed or deceased, these four

9 people we see the drawings of?

10 A. This relates to the 28 of them, not just to these four bodies.

11 We found them at that site after the cessation of hostilities, but I

12 don't know when exactly.

13 Q. Okay. Thank you very much for helping me on this document.

14 Now, let me go back to what you just told us a moment ago. I believe you

15 said that you did not go to Dusina, arguably the scene of these events in

16 January 1993. Is that correct?

17 A. I didn't go. That's correct. That's what I said.

18 Q. You as an investigator or as a crime-scene specialist, would you

19 have liked to go to Dusina to see what the real causes of these deaths

20 were, the circumstances?

21 A. As far as the fighting is concerned -- well, when there was

22 fighting we only worked when we received orders from judges from military

23 courts.

24 Q. Now, you personally --

25 A. So I as a specialist couldn't act independently.

Page 12706

1 Q. Now, I believe you may have answered that before to questions

2 from the Presiding Judge. You were never interviewed in relation to by a

3 judge or by another policeman in relation to these events at Dusina?

4 A. The tasks that I had, the tasks that my department performs now,

5 well we were involved in the technical aspect of the work: recording

6 traces; making sketches such as the one we have before us; taking

7 photographs; finding fingerprints and other traces, on the basis of which

8 light is shed on the event. But that aspect has to do with the work of

9 an inspector.

10 Q. Are you aware that anybody from your department or from somewhere

11 else did go to Dusina and make this nice drawing you have discussed a

12 moment ago? Are you aware of any such crime-scene sketch being done in

13 relation to Dusina?

14 A. No one from my department did that, but there is nothing else

15 that I know about it. As I have already said, because of the fighting we

16 did not go to the scenes.

17 Q. Do you know whether there was fighting in Dusina at the time you

18 became involved into the -- these investigations into the bodies?

19 A. Well, it's difficult to say now. Perhaps we would have gone

20 there, but the judges were afraid. They were against us going. And we

21 couldn't go without the judges.

22 Q. Which judge was afraid? Can you give us a name?

23 A. Well, in that specific case the judge was Mirsad Strika.

24 Q. And he told you he was afraid to go -- or that you went to

25 Dusina. Is that what you are saying?

Page 12707

1 A. Well, you know, Ermin Husejnagic couldn't decide on such matters.

2 Someone assesses security here too, you know. Perhaps you don't and

3 perhaps others don't. I don't know if that's clear or not.

4 Q. But he told you he was afraid?

5 A. Well, he was responsible for issuing such orders. For the sake

6 of security, for the sake of his safety and our safety, I assume he took

7 the decision he took.

8 Q. Let me ask you about these photo documentations. I believe you

9 said you personally photographed the bodies, the ten bodies, in black and

10 white. And is it true that you put together a documentation containing

11 these photographs?

12 A. I think so. Yes, that's certain. If you show me something like

13 the text you showed me a minute ago, I could tell you.

14 Q. Do you know where the original is of this photo documentation?

15 A. I know we handed it over to the military court, but right now I

16 don't know where it is.

17 Q. Where are they normally kept after a case is finished or shelved?

18 Where are these original documents usually kept?

19 A. Well, this was a military court case, so the original documents

20 should be sought via those channels. Or perhaps other bodies had

21 received this material apart from the military court. But after the

22 cessation of hostilities, I don't know where those documents were

23 forwarded to.

24 Q. Let me go to the last issue, that's document number 5 in your

25 bundle. It hasn't been assigned yet a number. If you can have a look at

Page 12708

1 document number 5. It is a report titled: External description of the

2 bodies from Lasva near Zenica, if I have the right translation. Do you

3 have that in front of you?

4 A. Yes, I do.

5 Q. Can you help us? The bodies, the way they are described, it

6 doesn't really say the names of these bodies. Can you help us and

7 perhaps you can relate to the other documents in your bundle numbered 1,

8 2, 4. Which, for instance, is body number 1 in parenthesis or slash

9 marked 2? Can you give us the name of this body? Perhaps document

10 number 3 or document number 4 may help you.

11 A. 1 through 93. Document number P334.

12 Q. So --

13 A. 1/1993 [as interpreted], this number means that it's the

14 unidentified body. 1 through 1993. This body was registered in the body

15 of the CSB in 1993. It was registered as unidentified. And this body

16 must have the same number on the photo record. Perhaps what the doctor

17 said when it says marked 2. This is 2 through 93. This means 2 through

18 93, and that would be Voja Stanisic. I'm referring to document P334.

19 That's how I found the name.

20 And I'm looking at document number 5 compiled by this doctor,

21 body number 1. But there was a 2 placed by the photograph. I think the

22 photograph started with number 2, which is why this is how everything has

23 been presented.

24 Q. So --

25 A. It's a bit confusing.

Page 12709

1 Q. [Previous translation continues]... summarise what I understand

2 you are saying. So the first body as described by the doctor, in the

3 report of the Dr. Turkic, the first body would be, and that's a

4 cross-reference to document P334, would be Vinko Kegelj?

5 A. No. 2 through 93, that's what I said. 2, it's marked "2."

6 That's the number that we use in the register of unidentified bodies,

7 which I referred to a minute ago.

8 Q. So --

9 A. 1 through 93, 1/93, if we have a look at the doctor's document,

10 body 1. This is on page 5 of the doctor's document, body number 9. Is

11 that clear now?

12 Q. So the name of body number 9 on the document would be whom, if

13 you give him a name, body number 9?

14 A. It would be Vinko, son of Matija. Vinko, son of Matija, from

15 Dusina.

16 Q. And that would be Vinko Kegelj ?

17 A. Well, let's be clear. I don't know anyone here. All I know is

18 how this is recorded. And it's on the basis of the way that this was

19 recorded that I have provided you with these clarifications.

20 Q. Okay. I'm not entirely sure whether I'm clear. Tell us, looking

21 at the report of Dr. Turkic the first body he discusses is called body

22 number 1, marked number 2. What's the name of this body, in your

23 opinion?

24 A. Stanisic, Vojo.

25 Q. And the second body, number 2, marked 3. Who would that be?

Page 12710

1 A. 3/93, Pero Ljubicic. I'm referring to document P334 now. 1

2 through 93, 2 through 93, 3 through 93; these are the numbers we placed

3 by the bodies when photographing them. And this is how the bodies were

4 identified, but the doctor followed an order of his own and he recorded

5 them under numbers of his own as a doctor.

6 Q. Very well. I understand now. Let's continue it step by step.

7 The third body in the doctor's report on page 2, it's called body number

8 3, marked 4. That would be?

9 A. Franjo Rajic.

10 Q. And body number 4, marked number 5 would be?

11 A. Augustin Rados.

12 Q. Body number 5, marked 6 would be?

13 A. Stipo Kegelj, son of Mato.

14 Q. Body number 6, marked 7?

15 A. 7/93, Zvonko Rajic.

16 Q. Then body number 7, marked 8?

17 A. This document -- in the last paragraph of this document it says

18 that body 8/93, it says that the above-named citizens were unable to

19 identify the body, but they provided names of people who went missing

20 from the Dusina area, namely Pero Rajic, son of Marko, and Mladen Kegelj,

21 son of Jozo.

22 I remember that we took the fingerprints of this person's right

23 index finger. And when making a comparison, when comparing this

24 fingerprint that was taken from body 8/93, when we compared this

25 fingerprint with the fingerprints we had in the database of the police

Page 12711

1 station in Zenica, it was determined that the person in question was

2 Mladen Kegelj. This is in document P333.

3 Q. And --

4 A. In the last paragraph of that document it says: "Body number 8

5 was identified on the basis of the right index fingerprint. The body is

6 that of Mladenko Kegelj, born on such-and-such a date in Dusina."

7 Q. And body number 9 marked number 1 would be whom?

8 A. Vinko Kegelj, son of Mato 1 through 93.

9 Q. And the last body, body number 10?

10 A. 10/93, Drazen Kegelj, Drazenko Kegelj.

11 Q. Thank you very much for this clarification. Now, were the bodies

12 opened by the doctor?

13 A. The doctor didn't open the bodies. The doctor performed an

14 external examination of them.

15 Q. Now, how long did he take to externally examine all these ten

16 bodies, if you recall?

17 A. I don't think I can remember that now.

18 Q. Do you remember whether any bullets, any bullets, were found and

19 indeed collected, noted somewhere?

20 A. I can't remember any bullets being found. You mean bullets,

21 don't you, parts of the bullets? If we had found anything, this would

22 probably have been recorded in some way.

23 Q. And the fact that it's not recorded, at least I don't see it,

24 means that he did not find any bullets?

25 A. Well, these bodies were brought to the morgue from the scene. At

Page 12712

1 the time it wasn't the cantonal hospital in Zenica. At the time there

2 was no cantonal hospital. So the cartridges or the bullets that caused

3 their death couldn't have been brought with them.

4 Q. Now, looking at these ten bodies, I don't know whether you

5 remember, do you remember whether they had wounds on their backs, entry

6 wounds, on their backs?

7 A. The forensic expert in medicine should have made such an

8 assessment, because - how should I put this? - the way in which this is

9 determined is quite specific. So an expert in forensic medicine would be

10 in a position to provide you with precise information about this.

11 Q. Well, earlier on you were asked a question -- to compare

12 different types of casualties and perhaps you have acquired certain

13 experience. If you don't know, it doesn't matter.

14 But let me just refer you to the first body on Dr. Turkic's

15 report. It's on the first page, and it's the last paragraph of the

16 descriptions of body number 1. So please go to your bundle, number 5.

17 It's the first page -- yes, that's the page. Body number 1, marked

18 number 2. Just go down perhaps 15 lines. And in your version, there --

19 it -- five lines before the end of the discussion of body number 1. It

20 says, and I quote: "There are five entry wounds -- entry wound openings

21 in the region of the right scapula and at the back of the right upper

22 arm. There are five exit wounds on the right front side of the thorax

23 and on the right upper arm."

24 Now, my question to you is: From your experience, these five

25 entry wound openings in the region of the right scapula, can you assist

Page 12713

1 us what the scapula means and its technical -- don't worry if you don't

2 know. Perhaps you remember having seen the body, having seen the entry

3 wounds. Do you know what scapula means?

4 A. Usually you refer to the chest, the left and the right part. So

5 reference is being made to the rib cage.

6 Q. Well, the chest, usually that's thorax. So scapula would be, in

7 medical terms, the shoulder blade, just to tell you that. Have you heard

8 of that, scapula being the shoulder blade?

9 A. These are medical terms, front and back side. There are

10 expressions when we used about the chest from the front and the behind.

11 After all, these are medical terms.

12 Q. So do you recall the body -- this first body number 1, that it

13 had entry wounds at the back shoulder blades, five entry wounds, and then

14 it comes out at the thorax, that's basically the breast. It's a large

15 area, can't be more specific. Do you recall that in relation to body

16 number 1?

17 A. After so many years, it's hard for me to remember with any

18 precision. I can just make a guess.

19 Q. Perhaps -- you don't need to do that. Perhaps one body which may

20 have sticked out is body number 4 and you told us that was Augustin

21 Rados. If you can go to page number 2 and it's also in your version on

22 page number 2 the towards the end. But in fact in the English version

23 what I want to talk about is the last paragraph. And in your version

24 it's on page number 3, the top of page number 3, Mr. Husejnagic.

25 Let me quote: "This body, Augustin Rados, there are 17 entry

Page 12714

1 wounds inflicted by firearms on the front side of the thorax and on the

2 abdomen. On the back, there are eight exit and three entry wounds in the

3 region of the right scapula."

4 Do you remember a body that's been so riddled by bullets from

5 both sides? Do you remember this specific body?

6 A. Not with precision. I have a hazy remembrance.

7 Q. Can you tell us about this hazy remembrance. What did you see?

8 How did the body look like?

9 A. Unless I could look at some documents, I'm unable to say

10 anything.

11 Q. Well, the documents you have in front of you, that's all we have

12 today. Does it jog your memory, any of the documents? You can also read

13 the whole paragraph of body number 4. It tells you -- he was, I guess,

14 unusually tall. He was 196 centimetres tall and about 30 years of age.

15 A. A moment ago you showed me another document with 28 victims.

16 After so much time and after so many events, it's hard to remember

17 anything well enough for me to be able to give you any concrete comments

18 regarding the injuries and the like.

19 Q. Very well. Were you surprised to see, perhaps you and other

20 people, that these people were shot from two sides or at least some of

21 them were -- had entry wounds, both at the front and at the back? Did

22 that surprise you, compared to other bodies you have seen in the course

23 of that time?

24 A. It was no more unusual than the other events. Now, from these

25 descriptions, it is obvious that automatic firearms were used. I could

Page 12715

1 just give you an example. For example, the speed of firing of one type

2 of such firearm.

3 Q. Do you remember whether these bodies were filmed, the dead bodies

4 as appeared, naked bodies? Do you remember that they were filmed?

5 A. We didn't do that part of the work, nor did I see anyone filming

6 the bodies with a video camera.

7 Q. Is it normal practice to film the bodies, or would that be

8 something unusual in your experience?

9 A. The CSB in Zenica in those days did not have a video camera, at

10 least my department didn't have one. Maybe somebody might have had it in

11 private possession.

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. WAESPI:

14 Q. Let me just ask you another small subject. Before you testified,

15 the Defence informed us in a brief note of what you were going to talk

16 about. And it says that families were notified in relation to, I take

17 it, these bodies. Were you involved in identification of the families of

18 the persons we discussed?

19 A. That part of the work was done by the inspector of the CSB, Enes

20 Saric, together with the judge. I assumed the judge, Iset Strika --

21 sorry, Mirsad Strika was also involved.

22 Q. Do you know when that was done?

23 A. On the 28th of January. That was on that day. Now, whether some

24 additional things were done the following day, I don't know. But I think

25 that they managed to have almost all of the ten bodies identified on that

Page 12716

1 day. I know there was talk that there was need to go to the morgue once

2 again to examine the bodies. I don't know, therefore, whether a part of

3 the work was left for the following day.

4 Q. Do you know whether -- sorry?

5 A. It doesn't matter.

6 Q. Do you know whether these persons who contacted the family

7 members, Mr. Saric or perhaps the judge, whether they had to travel to

8 see these family members to inform them?

9 A. I don't know that. As far as I know, they came themselves. They

10 came of their own accord. Somebody from the army was present,

11 representatives of the HVO, and some other citizens. And the judge,

12 Vlado Adamovic would drop in, too. Now, what was the reason for this,

13 I'm not sure. Maybe he did part of that work; I don't know for sure.

14 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Husejnagic. I appreciate your answers.

15 MR. WAESPI: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence.

17 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Husejnagic, you were shown a document that

19 you drafted in 1995 in the area of Donji Vakuf. Tell me, please, from

20 1992 until about the middle of 1995, who controlled Donji Vakuf?

21 A. I know that we did on-site inspections as the CSB when explosives

22 were placed on the bridge at Donji Vakuf. After that inspection, we no

23 longer had access to Donji Vakuf.

24 Q. Was the Army of Republika Srpska there?

25 A. Yes. After that event. I don't know exactly when this on-site

Page 12717

1 inspection was done, but I know that my boss at the time, Judge Izet did

2 the inspection. And after that the Army of Republika Srpska would not

3 allow access to Donji Vakuf.

4 Q. Answering questions from my learned friend you said you went to

5 the crime scene after the cessation of hostilities. During that

6 inspection, was Donji Vakuf liberated once again and placed under the

7 control of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

8 A. Yes. We may have been maybe the third team that entered that

9 area, after the Army of Republika Srpska had left.

10 Q. Answering a question from my learned friend you said that you

11 attended a large number of on-site inspections during the war. Was this

12 one of the ones that you attended?

13 A. Yes. I told your colleague that with respect to that event I

14 made the sketches of the crime scene, and I think I also took photographs

15 of the victims.

16 Q. You also told my learned colleague on page 41, line 20, that you

17 didn't do on-site inspections in areas of combat operations. Is that

18 right?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. When you went to carry out this on-site inspection in liberated

21 Donji Vakuf, there was no fighting in Donji Vakuf at the time. Is that

22 right?

23 A. Yes, that's right. There was no combat. Now, exactly where the

24 separation lines were just then, I don't know. But they were quite

25 removed from the crime scene.

Page 12718

1 Q. At the time you went to carry out this on-site inspection, the

2 bodies that you drew were on the spot where you found them, or had they

3 been already moved from another location?

4 A. As far as we knew, and judging by the traces that we found on the

5 crime scene and our conclusions, they were on the very spot where the

6 injuries were inflicted as a result of which they passed away.

7 Q. Regarding the case that is before this Trial Chamber, the bodies

8 you took photographs of and did other activities together with your

9 colleagues with respect to them, where were those bodies when you were

10 assigned the task to do these tests?

11 A. Those bodies had already been brought to the morgue. This is a

12 separate section of the pathology ward where Dr. Faruk Turkic, the

13 pathologist, works.

14 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, as part of your overall activities in the CSB,

15 were you ever aware of a case when the judge inspecting bodies brought to

16 a place which is quite some distance from the crime scene, would he give

17 instructions for those bodies to be taken back and placed on the spot

18 where they died?

19 A. This never occurred in my career.

20 Q. So these two cases are quite different, because in that case the

21 bodies were on the scene; and in this case the bodies were in hospital.

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. Also you started answering a question from my learned colleague

24 when he mentioned that one body was hit by 17 rounds. You said that the

25 conclusion to be drawn was that an automatic weapon had been used. Tell

Page 12719

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2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 12720

1 me, what is the speed with this an automatic rifle can fire a burst of

2 fire, a large number of bullets?

3 A. Depending on the type of automatic weapon, a Kalashnikov was

4 frequently used and it can fire 150 rounds per minute. A light

5 machine-gun, M-84, 1.000 rounds a minute.

6 Q. Thank you. And my last question you answered, saying that Judge

7 Katkic had given you instructions to carry out certain activities in

8 Donji Vakuf. And Judge Strika, instructions with respect to the bodies

9 from Dusina. Tell me, as specialists, can you act contrary to or without

10 a decision of the investigating judge who is in charge of these -- this

11 part of the procedure?

12 A. I've already answered that question. We cannot be independent in

13 our work.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

16 questions for this witness.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team?

18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

20 Questioned by the Court:

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Chamber has some questions

22 for you, and specifically I would like to show you a video which was

23 admitted into evidence.

24 So, Mr. Registrar, would it be possible P718. Could we screen

25 it? It has already been shown. The Prosecution produced this. It is

Page 12721

1 V000-2400.

2 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Perhaps we can assist. It should be running

3 from our system.

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 MR. WAESPI: We are ready to play it, Your Honours, if you want

6 us.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. You are now going to

8 watch a videotape and you will comment on it. I'm showing you this video

9 in view of the fact that you told us that you took part in the

10 investigation into the deaths of certain persons, and this video shows

11 the bodies. We will ask you for your comments.

12 So could the Prosecution play the video through their system.

13 [Videotape played]

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we eliminate the sound?

15 It would be better. No sound and no comments, just the pictures, please.

16 [Videotape played]

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we stop now?

18 Look at this picture closely. You see a body. Look at the neck. As a

19 specialist and a forensic expert, the trace one sees on the neck, was it

20 caused by a bullet or by some other means? What would you say to us as a

21 specialist?

22 A. A competent expert for body injuries is the medical forensic

23 expert and this shot is not too clear. I can make a judgement

24 arbitrarily.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When the forensic medical

Page 12722

1 expert described the bodies, were you present? Were you with the expert

2 when he was describing the bodies?

3 A. I was present when these examinations were done. I did not

4 assist the pathologist. He had his own assistant for that. I just took

5 the photographs.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. But you were present.

7 What I'm showing you on this neck, you must have seen it. It's visible.

8 A. Did I see it then? Now, I see it now. And I don't remember

9 seeing it then.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see, you don't remember.

11 A. I think at the time, no such traces were evident.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us just now that you

13 were -- that you had certain knowledge about bullets and projectiles.

14 Can you confirm that you have some knowledge about gunfire. You have

15 such knowledge or not? What are you telling us?

16 A. I do have knowledge. Are you referring to this specific event

17 or --

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But with the knowledge you

19 have, what one sees, could this have been caused by a bullet? This is an

20 ultrasimple question I'm putting to you. Could this have been due to a

21 bullet? Because we see a scar. Could it have been caused by a bullet?

22 You said during your career you saw an X number of bodies, so I'm asking

23 you a technical question. Can what we see have been caused by a bullet?

24 If you don't know, say that you don't.

25 A. It's hard to be precise in such a situation simply on the basis

Page 12723

1 of this fact, or rather this video picture that I am looking at. What I

2 mean is I don't know how to put it, one needs to know the circumstances

3 under which something is happening. One needs to have more precise

4 factors on the basis of which to draw conclusions. I could sort of

5 arbitrarily make a judgement.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We'll continue.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I do apologise, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Stop the video, please.

10 Continue.

11 [Videotape played]

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're going to stop now and

13 we'll continue with the questions after the break. It is 12.30 and we'll

14 resume about 5 to 1.00.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now resume. Check to see

18 if the transcript is working; it is.

19 Witness, you were shown a video just before we adjourned, and

20 like everyone else in the courtroom, you watched the video. There were

21 traces of wounds on these bodies the size of which was different. Could

22 you explain how it is that the wounds on the bodies were of different

23 sizes, the holes made were different sizes. Is there anything you could

24 say, any explanation you could provide?

25 A. It depends.

Page 12724

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It depends on what?

2 A. It depends on the trajectory of the bullet, or rather, it depends

3 on the obstacles encountered by the bullets. A bullet in the course of

4 its trajectory can be deviated, the bullets can be affected -- so the

5 bullets can be affected. As a rule in ballistics, entry wounds have a

6 smaller diameter. It depends on whether the bullet was deformed. If

7 that is the case, the exit wound can be of a bigger size.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You said that you

9 were present when the pathologist examined the bodies. Were the corpses

10 -- when the corpses were examined, were they completely naked?

11 A. Yes, completely.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as you can remember when

13 the bodies were examined, were there still traces of blood?

14 A. I assume that there were. It depended on the position of the

15 body. As the bodies were turned around, blood would appear from certain

16 parts of the bodies.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have said that you had

18 already attended such examinations. When somebody dies a violent death,

19 at the time were autopsies performed or not? As a specialist, a

20 technician, what would you say? Was it almost obligatory to perform

21 autopsies when the cause of death was a violent one, or was this for the

22 judges to decide? As a specialist, what is your position about this

23 issue?

24 A. Well, only a judge can order an autopsy to be performed. That's

25 the case for the current law on criminal procedure and for the former

Page 12725

1 one. This event referred to by the Prosecutor -- well, as far as the

2 event in 1995 is concerned, the event was similar to the one referred to

3 by the Prosecutor. The examination of the victims was identical to the

4 examination of the victims in this case.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But as far as you know, were

6 there any cases in which complete autopsies were performed? Are there

7 any cases that you yourself were familiar with?

8 A. Yes, I'm familiar with many cases, many such cases. But on the

9 whole these cases involved - well, how would I put it -- civilian part of

10 the work, as far as combat is concerned when there was fighting,

11 autopsies were rarely performed. So I'm telling what I know, on the

12 basis of my experience. I know -- I'm familiar with these two events.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Dr. Faruk Turkic, was he

14 someone who was capable of performing an autopsy? Because in forensic

15 medicine it's necessary to have diplomas in medicine and certain

16 knowledge. Was this doctor capable of performing an autopsy, in

17 accordance with the rules of forensic medicine?

18 A. Dr. Faruk Turkic was a pathologist. This means someone who

19 determines the cause of death. As this to whether he had any knowledge

20 in the field of forensic medicine, I don't know. But all I do know is at

21 that time the only doctor who could carry out that work in that area was

22 this person I have referred to. He was the most competent doctor.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When the body is examined, if

24 one assumes that there were gunshot wounds, doesn't one try to find the

25 bullets in the body?

Page 12726

1 A. Yes. This can be done when an autopsy is performed, and as I

2 said an autopsy was not performed at the time. And in the case of

3 similar events, autopsies weren't performed either.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's go back to

5 the document that Defence counsel showed you a while ago. And could you

6 have a look at document number 4, P341, dated the 29th of January. It's

7 the document on the paraffin test. Can you see the first page? On the

8 first page it says that on the 29th of January -- maybe I'll translate

9 this. "Bodies brought from Dusina, from Lasva, were identified and

10 paraffin tests were performed on each body, et cetera.

11 But I see that there was no paraffin test for the body of

12 Stanisic. And in English it says that it was impossible to approach the

13 body. Where was Stanisic's body? Do you have an explanation, because

14 ten bodies are referred to and there are nine paraffin tests, yet there

15 was no test performed on this body. How do you explain this?

16 A. As far as I can remember now, I would say that for technical

17 reasons -- well, in the morgue there are only two tables and the room is

18 about 4 by 5 metres. That's the area where the examinations were carried

19 out. And given the number of bodies, since that's the only morgue and

20 since there were many other bodies of people who had died in other ways,

21 well I assumed that this was the reason.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The paraffin test

23 we were provided with a description under "findings." We were provided

24 with a description of the test. I won't go into the technique -- the

25 technical details, which is very simple if you're familiar with this

Page 12727

1 procedure, but I have a minor question. When you take samples for the

2 chemical reaction of defemalin [phoen], how do you proceed? How do you

3 take samples from the hands to determine whether there's any nitrate,

4 oxide, et cetera? How do you proceed? How do you take samples?

5 A. We used the paraffin gloves to collect samples. The procedure is

6 as follows, I should explain this.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very quickly. How do you

8 proceed?

9 A. You take paraffin that dissolves at a certain temperature and has

10 a certain purity. It dissolves and then you put the paraffin on the

11 hands. After it has solidified - after a certain period of time has

12 passed, the time depends on the warmth of the body - you take the

13 paraffin gloves off and then you perform an analysis of those paraffin

14 gloves under microscope.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the case of Stanisic's body

16 it wouldn't have taken long to perform that test. Why wasn't this test

17 done? You say the body was there, but why?

18 A. Well, I can't remember that body now. The body was photographed,

19 but you know if you only have one table and then you move one body to one

20 place and another to another place and the room is only 4 by 5 metres, I

21 assume that as a result the workers who were carrying out the work simply

22 left. This is just an assumption, but that might be the technical

23 reason.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll go on to

25 another question. Have a look at document 5. We have a description in

Page 12728

1 that document of the bodies, an external description of the bodies.

2 There are no names for these bodies. You have identified the names. You

3 said number 1 was Mr. Stanic [as interpreted], you said 2 was Pero

4 Ljubicic, et cetera. On the 28th of January, they were not identified.

5 On the 29th of January we were identified, as we can see in document 334

6 and in document P341. We have the first and last names and the dates of

7 birth. On the basis of documents and you are a specialist in

8 fingerprints, fingerprints were taken -- fingerprints of their right

9 index fingers were taken and then these fingerprints were then compared

10 to fingerprints that the Zenica police station apparently had. As far as

11 you can remember, is this what actually happened? How were the

12 fingerprints compared?

13 A. Well, how would I put it? Comparisons made on -- in the files

14 that relate to identity cards of all the individuals who lived in the

15 state, in these files you have the fingerprints of these individuals'

16 right index fingers.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the identity cards were

18 where? Where were these victims' identity cards, if they had them?

19 A. I didn't see those documents on any of them. This was something

20 that the inspector from the CSB was involved in, Saric Enes. We were

21 involved in the technical part of the work, photographing, et cetera, in

22 the paraffin test that I have spoken about.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Let's have a look

24 at document number 5 now which contains descriptions of the bodies.

25 Could you have a look at the description of body number 7. It says that

Page 12729

1 it's a male, 185 centimetres tall, about 30 years of age, et cetera. In

2 line 4 it says: The face is extremely deformed and unrecognisable

3 because of broken bones."

4 Can you see that? Can you see that sentence? And then it

5 says --

6 A. Just a minute. Which document are you referring to?

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The document number 5, which

8 provides an external description of the bodies. It's dated the 28th of

9 January. And in this document, which was compiled by the pathologist who

10 was following orders issued by the judge, Mirsad Strika, there are ten

11 bodies that were examined. I would like you to have a look at body

12 number 7, marked 8. Can you see that part? It's on page 3. The

13 description commences as follows: "The body of a male, 185 centimetres

14 tall, et cetera." Have a look at line 4 in this paragraph. I'll read

15 line 4. I'll translate the English into French.

16 It says: "The face is extremely deformed and unrecognisable

17 because of broken bones." And it continues. It says that "the nose is

18 also deformed; the mouth is open."

19 When it says that the face is deformed, how is it that it doesn't

20 say that it's deformed as a result of a gunshot wound? Because if a

21 bullet was in question, how could one explain the fact that the face is

22 extremely deformed? As a technician, what would you say? Is the

23 deformation caused by a bullet or something else? Because in the

24 paragraph that follows it says: "The face is deformed and it's difficult

25 to recognise it because of the broken bones."

Page 12730

1 What would your conclusion be?

2 A. As far as wounds to the head are concerned, it means that a bone

3 was encountered as an obstacle. If a bullet encounters a bone which is

4 an obstacle, then this causes significant deformations. The exit wounds

5 are frequently very ugly. So if there were two wounds inflicted to the

6 head, then very frequently you have such cases. At this moment I can't

7 really be precise, but this is a situation that occurred frequently.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But given what you

9 have said as far as the technical matters are concerned, how is it that

10 the pathologist did not indicate, did not mention, that there was a

11 bullet in the head? Because according to what you said, these

12 deformations and these multiple fractures can only be the result of the

13 bullet or of several bullets. How is it that this description does not

14 mention the fact that there was a bullet? How would you explain this?

15 Can you provide an explanation?

16 A. Well, look -- how would I explain that, What would I say? If an

17 automatic firearm was used, a fast weapon, then it can even sever part of

18 the body. For example, if it can fire a lot of bullets in a minute, then

19 it can even sever part of the body, and this would occur. So there would

20 no longer be an entry point or an exit point; all you could see would be

21 a deformation. That is really the case with the head, because a bullet

22 is immediately encountered. As far as soft tissue is concerned, the

23 situation is a little different after all.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. But wouldn't it

25 have been possible to perform an autopsy to determine the trajectory of

Page 12731

1 the bullet?

2 A. Well, you see, regarding the trajectory of the bullet, we need to

3 have two fixed points. No autopsy was done in this case. Whether there

4 were two fixed points or not, I am unable to say now.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. You can't make any

6 conclusions. Very well.

7 JUDGE SWART: Good morning, Witness. I have a few questions for

8 you. The first one is the following. You mentioned the names of the

9 judges at the investigation concerning the bodies we talked about. There

10 was also a prosecutor present. Do you also remember his name or don't

11 you?

12 A. I don't remember the name. I know he doesn't have the most

13 important role in those activities, so I don't remember the specific

14 person.

15 JUDGE SWART: I have two other questions for you. One relates to

16 what you've said one or two minutes ago, talking about wounds caused by

17 gunshots. If you read the report that is number 5 in your set of

18 documents, you see that the doctor very often says that there is a wound

19 the size of a -- the palm of a man's hand or the palm of a child's hand.

20 And it strikes me that in a number of situations in which he makes this

21 remark, he also said that it is an exit wound.

22 Is there a relationship between exit wounds and the size of

23 wounds, as you suggested a minute ago? You said exit wounds caused

24 terrible exit shots, exit -- an exiting bullet caused terrible wounds.

25 A. I said that depending on the obstacles that the bullet comes

Page 12732

1 across, the round, what obstacle it comes against, it may depart from its

2 trajectory. And then it carries with it the material it comes across.

3 For instance, if it hits against bone, hard bone, the bone is fragile,

4 brittle, and a kind of conical crater is formed. And that is why the

5 exit wounds are ugly when the round encounters a hard obstacle.

6 JUDGE SWART: I think I understand what you are saying. When the

7 doctor writes about wounds the size of the palm of a hand or a child's

8 hand, he -- well, if he asks you -- if the doctor writes such things in

9 his report, what would you see, as a layman, if you read there is a wound

10 the size of a hand, the palm of a hand? What would you expect to see as

11 a layman? Is there a hole or something else?

12 A. The exit wound, as I explained a moment ago. The entry wound can

13 be smaller and the exit wound larger, especially when the round

14 encounters these obstacles. Not along the whole channel so as to make a

15 hole. In my view, a hole is something that is hollow throughout.

16 JUDGE SWART: But my question was: If the doctor -- the doctor

17 who made this report writes about a wound as large as the size of the

18 palm of a man, the palm of a child's hand, would that correspond with

19 what you are telling? Would -- may I expect as a reader to be confronted

20 with a hole in that case? I'm just asking: What does he mean when he

21 says that?

22 A. I think that he was trying to say entry and exit wound in a way,

23 because he knows that.

24 JUDGE SWART: Okay. He very often mentioned in this respect exit

25 wounds but doesn't do it always. So is the question that he had in mind

Page 12733

1 [indiscernible].

2 Two other questions I still have. One relates to a discussion

3 between the Prosecutor and you. The Prosecutor said when somebody is

4 shot from different angles, can this be a war situation and you said,

5 yes, this can very well be caused in a war situation. Now, if you read

6 the report of the doctor you see that in the case of three bodies, body

7 1, body 3, and body 10 in this list, there were only wounds -- entries of

8 bullets at the back. So these people have died by bullets that only came

9 from the back side.

10 My question to you would be: Is that something that is quite

11 normal in war situations, in a fight? Or is that exclusively a

12 phenomenon that is not related to a fight?

13 A. All kinds of things happen. One cannot make any conclusions

14 solely based on that particular fact. The configuration of the land is

15 very important. It could even be decisive when making conclusions.

16 JUDGE SWART: For instance, when they were in the valley and have

17 been shot from the hilltop or so, that could be a situation in which you

18 could kill a man in a fight by hitting him from the back -- in the back.

19 Is that the kind of situation you were thinking of?

20 A. I was thinking of various situations on the basis of which one

21 draws conclusions. But in wartime there are also kinds of situations.

22 This is for me nothing unusual, and it doesn't lead me to doubt or

23 suspect that this was something out of the ordinary.

24 JUDGE SWART: Thank you.

25 And my last question to you is the following. The Presiding

Page 12734

1 Judge read you a part of the description of body number 7. And he quoted

2 the part of the report which makes mention of wounds on the head of that

3 person. And you said, yes, well, if a body -- if a bullet encounters

4 resistance and deviates from its normal trajectory, but if it encounters

5 resistance it may cause all kinds of terrible wounds, and I understand

6 that. But please note at the end of the description of the doctor in

7 this case, in this case of body number 7, that he only talks about an

8 entry at the right collar bone in this body and the exit at the back. So

9 I don't see how this bullet could have reached the head, so to speak. He

10 doesn't mention other bullets. Do you have an explanation? Can you help

11 me there?

12 A. I could make a comparison as someone who deals with forensics

13 and who is working on ballistics. When a round hits glass very often

14 nothing is left. So one doesn't know where it entered or where it exited

15 when the glass is on the ground.

16 JUDGE SWART: Thank you. I also have one question for the

17 Defence because I don't remember having heard this before. But could the

18 Defence tell us where this document comes from. Is it from the military

19 court or is it from another archive? Maybe I have missed it.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I think that this is

21 a document that the Defence received during the investigations in the

22 cantonal court in Zenica and the cantonal prosecutor's office in Zenica.

23 Some of these documents and others like them were received from the

24 prosecutor's office. And this particular one that I showed to the

25 witness, I'm not sure from which of these three sources it came. But it

Page 12735

1 is to be found in the court register and among the documents of the

2 Prosecution.

3 JUDGE SWART: Thank you.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Still talking about this

5 document, I would like to ask the Defence, the last page of the document

6 where we see the conclusion, just before the conclusion there's a line.

7 Have you seen the original or is this a copy of the original?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Where did you say, Mr. President,

9 that the line was?

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Page 6 in the B/C/S document.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] To be quite frank, Mr. President,

12 this is a copy of the document. As our investigators examined the

13 documents in the courts, I personally cannot testify about the original

14 document because we never received originals.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

16 Are there any additional questions? We have a few minutes left. Does

17 the Prosecution have any questions emanating from the Judges' questions?

18 And then I'll give the floor to the Defence counsel.

19 MR. WAESPI: Okay, Mr. President, yes, I do have one question and

20 that relates to an answer you gave in relation to the Presiding Judge's

21 question about this -- I call it now cut or whatever, wound we saw on the

22 videoclip.

23 Further cross-examination by Mr. Waespi:

24 Q. You said that, and I quote you, you "needed more precise factors

25 on the basis of which to draw conclusions." And in an answer to Judge

Page 12736

1 Swart's question you also said that the configuration of land would be

2 important to make determinations.

3 Can you elaborate a little bit more about this cut. What

4 factors -- how would you have determined what the circumstances of that

5 wound was? You as an expert in that field, how -- if you had free hands,

6 how would you have gone about to determine the circumstances of this

7 infliction of that wound?

8 A. You mean this specific wound on the neck of one of the victims or

9 generally?

10 Q. Yes, specifically.

11 A. If you want my opinion, I didn't provide it previously regarding

12 neck injuries. It is difficult on the basis of a photograph or a

13 videotape that was shown to me on the monitor. As a specialist, when I

14 look at this photograph it reminds me of a surface injury. Had it been

15 deeper there would have been a very visible opening. The width of the

16 scar would have been greater, though I'm not a forensic medical expert,

17 but as a criminal technician that would be my opinion for that particular

18 photo.

19 Q. And if you were asked to determine what the cause of this wound

20 was, how would you have followed up? What would you have done if you

21 were in charge of that investigation?

22 A. This is something specific, and then I would probably know what

23 to do. We are talking about the human body or something else, but now as

24 we just have a photograph, or rather, a video still, we can just comment

25 on them with a certain degree of probability. So that means --

Page 12737

1 Q. But would you have interviewed witnesses, tried to find witnesses

2 who were present when the infliction of the wound would have happened.

3 Would you have tried to do that?

4 A. A forensic medical expert or me as a ballistic expert should not

5 engage in any kind of interviewing in order to make our decisions.

6 Decisions are made on the basis of concrete facts and traces. Traces

7 never lie. People may lie, but traces never lie.

8 Q. If you yourself put into the shoes of an investigative judge in

9 order to find out what the reasons are for this wound, would you

10 interview witnesses as an example?

11 A. You mean as head of the investigating team, head of the entire

12 investigations or as a technical person who did the technical part of the

13 work? It depends on my role.

14 Q. Yes, the former one, the head of the investigation.

15 A. Probably I would, because part of the investigations was

16 conducted in that way, too.

17 Q. Thank you, Witness.

18 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I have a comment to make about this

19 "report" you just discussed about. We received that for the first time

20 two days ago or three days ago from the Defence. And you see as the

21 B/C/S does not call them any, as we call them, ERN numbers. But in

22 preparation for this witness I checked our files again and as it

23 happens - and I just gave the originals of our files to the

24 Defence - this expert report followed the photo identification report.

25 And I understand we seized it somewhere some time ago. And the reason --

Page 12738

1 yes, I believe it was the result of an RFA, request for assistance. And

2 the reason we didn't pick it up is because it's wrongly dated. It's a

3 very shallow explanation, but if you look at the head it says "1992."

4 And perhaps the system or whoever was dealing with it didn't pick it up

5 as part of this investigation. It also doesn't mention Dusina, it just

6 says in the title "Lasva, near Zenica."

7 So we have it. It was ERN'd and I gave the original -- it's also

8 a copy, but we have the original copy is with the Defence right now. She

9 has the file with her. And if you want to have a look at our original,

10 then you are very welcome to it. That's the explanation I can give you,

11 Your Honours.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the original there?

13 MR. WAESPI: Yes, it's with Defence counsel.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can have a look at

15 it straightaway.

16 MR. WAESPI: And it was a copy of what we were provided. You'll

17 see it's not originally signed.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, these are photocopies.

19 These are photocopies.

20 MR. WAESPI: Yes. That is the case.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

22 Does the Defence have any questions?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, I have a response

24 to make. Clearly the source from which we obtained the document is

25 identical with the source explained by my learned colleague from the

Page 12739

1 Prosecution. And, Your Honour, you will be able to see that on page 6 of

2 this document the same straight line appears. So certainly it exists on

3 the original document as well.

4 Further examination by Ms. Residovic:

5 Q. I would like to ask you some questions from the Judges'

6 questions. You were shown a video recording. I would like to ask you.

7 When you took photographs of the bodies in the morgue of the Zenica

8 hospital, in addition did you put any markings next to the bodies? And

9 if so, are those markings visible on your photographs?

10 A. Yes, we did. The markings we placed by the bodies, the markings

11 1, 2, 3, and 4. And in the document, in Exhibit Number 334, P334, the

12 names are under those numbers, 1, 2, 3. But 3/93 has been added there.

13 Q. Mr. Husejnagic, in response to a question you said that when you

14 were there in the morgue you didn't have a video camera nor did anyone

15 use a video to film the scene. And is that your response to the video

16 shown to you by the Chamber?

17 A. Yes. I didn't see anyone using a video camera to film the scene,

18 but I think it was only in 1997 that the MUP, the Ministry of the

19 Interior, obtained a video camera.

20 Q. If someone had filmed the scene with a video camera while you

21 were there and you were taking photographs of the corpses and there was a

22 doctor who was there who described the bodies, if someone had filmed the

23 scene would the video have picked up the numbers that you had placed by

24 the bodies?

25 A. Yes, of course. I think it would have been impossible to film

Page 12740

1 the bodies without capturing the markings.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, since in addition

3 to this document which we showed to the witness, we had photocopies of

4 photographs which weren't clear, the copies were very bad, could our

5 colleagues from the Prosecution show us the best -- the Prosecution

6 showed us the best version of these documents. Could we now show the

7 witness these photographs, these copies, to determine whether these are

8 in fact the photographs that the witness took.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 Mr. Usher, could you show this file to the Defence so they can

11 take the photographs from it.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 You can show them to the witness. You could ask him to put them

14 on the ELMO so we can all see them. Could you put the first sheet on the

15 ELMO, please, because the witness previously said that in addition to the

16 photographs he provided to the court there is a front page with his

17 signature. Perhaps the witness could have a look at the front page and

18 tell us whether the bottom of the page we can see his name and his

19 signature, too.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the very bottom you can't see

21 everything but I think it's sufficient. You can see the first and last

22 name and my colleague Hadzic Redzo is above with his signature.

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Can you show us all the photographs one after another, and can

25 you point to the markings you placed by the bodies when you photographed

Page 12741

1 them. And these are the markings referred to the doctor later on.

2 A. Number 1 through 93. In the document I mentioned early on, P334.

3 Q. Thank you. Let's continue.

4 A. Here we have number 2, number 3, number 4. This number is part

5 of the equipment of the forensic -- that the forensic team has. It's

6 used to indicate traces, et cetera.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. You can -- this is number 4. Here it's not very visible, but

9 number 5 should have been here.

10 Q. Very well.

11 A. I think, if you have a good look, you can see the outline of

12 number 5.

13 Q. Very well. Do continue.

14 A. 6, 7, 8, 9, and number 10.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 You told the Presiding Judge about the method of identification

17 when you took the fingerprints of the right index finger and you provided

18 certain explanations. You said you didn't see these individuals'

19 identity cards. But could you please tell us, where are the files of all

20 the fingerprints of the right index fingers of all those who have

21 identity cards in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22 A. Well, in the places where identity cards were issued, the police

23 administrations have certain form -- certain forms for identity cards.

24 And they have the fingerprints of the right index finger. And as a rule,

25 if the right index finger is damaged, then you take a fingerprint from

Page 12742

1 the left one. As a rule when you proceed with identifications, when you

2 don't know who the person is, you take a fingerprint of both the right

3 and left index finger.

4 Q. Do you remember when your colleague who identified the body under

5 number 8 made such a comparison, compared the data with the data that the

6 police administration in Zenica had?

7 A. Well, in the files of identity cards you have the fingerprint of

8 the -- from the right index finger. And in the course of the

9 investigations, we took fingerprints from the right index finger of body

10 number 8.

11 Q. The Chamber also asked you a number of questions about the fact

12 that in the case of some wounds the doctor didn't refer to the entry and

13 exit wounds, and you said that depending on the trajectory of a bullet, a

14 bullet can sever part of the body. And in such cases, there's no exit or

15 entry wound.

16 Could you please tell us, if a body has multiple wounds, is it

17 possible that in the case of parts of the body being severed there is no

18 entry or exit wound, whereas in the cases of other wounds inflicted on

19 other parts of the body it's possible to detect an entry and exit wound?

20 Did you come across any such cases?

21 A. Yes, on a number of occasions. I've already explained this. As

22 I've said, the obstacles encountered by the bullet is the main factor.

23 Q. Let's go back to the photos. You said that the original

24 photographs are in the possession of the person you forwarded them to.

25 But does the CSB keep in its archives some of the basic material on the

Page 12743

1 basis of which it might be possible to establish that these are in fact

2 the photographs that you took?

3 A. In accordance with the instructions and rules of the MUP, the

4 Ministry of the Interior, the forensic department must keep negatives

5 that were made when carrying out investigations. They must keep these

6 negatives in their archives.

7 Q. And my last question, although there might be an objection, but

8 you said that you knew Mr. Turkic and he was the most professional man,

9 most competent man in the hospital at the time. In the course of the

10 examination -- in the course of the investigation -- in the course of the

11 examination of the body, Dr. Turkic -- if Dr. Turkic had observed a

12 significant kind of wound, would Dr. Turkic have referred to that wound,

13 to such a wound, in his findings? What is your opinion?

14 A. Well, I wouldn't place myself in such a situation for a number of

15 reasons.

16 Q. Very well.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness can't answer the

18 question. Thank you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You already mentioned the

20 objection.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it's not been correctly

22 interpreted. The doctor wouldn't have placed himself in such a

23 situation - that's what I wanted to say - in the course of such

24 investigations. Well, I think it would have been strange if the doctor

25 tried to misrepresent something or falsify something.

Page 12744

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution?

2 MR. WAESPI: Well, in fact, the objection was obvious because it

3 calls for speculation of what is in the mind of someone else. Also, I'm

4 not sure whether the witness said before he was the most professional

5 doctor. I thought he was the only doctor in the Zenica morgue.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, in fact the witness said

7 that he was the only doctor in the area.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no other questions. Thank

9 you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And the other

11 Defence team?

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your leave if

13 the Prosecution allows us we will make better copies of these

14 photographs, but we would wish to tender these documents into evidence.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team?

16 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions,

17 Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has two documents

19 they would like to have admitted into evidence: The description of the

20 bodies under number 5, and there are the photographs as well. So we need

21 two exhibit numbers.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As we don't have the

24 photocopies, we'll wait until tomorrow.

25 Does the Prosecution have any objections to having these two

Page 12745

1 documents admitted into evidence?

2 MR. WAESPI: No, not at all, Mr. President. But just if we could

3 make the copy, because these are the originals and it's a chain of

4 custody issue. So I'll give you the best copy I could do.

5 Second, if we could have an official translation of this external

6 description report because there are a couple of errors. For instance,

7 just one example, at the end of the first page it starts in the English

8 translation: "There is an exit wound on the right cheek." And in B/C/S

9 it says: "There is an entry wound."

10 So if just a good translation -- I'm sure it's a good one, but if

11 it could be checked again. We have an official CLSS translation of this

12 important document. Other than that, we don't have any objections.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Defence counsel.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I know that the interpreters, the

15 translators, in this Tribunal have a very difficult job to do and they

16 work under pressure. Sometimes I notice errors such as the ones referred

17 to by my colleague. This is an official Tribunal translation, but we

18 could make a request to have this translation reviewed again in order to

19 eliminate any errors.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will mark these

21 documents for identification and then we will provide definitive numbers

22 once we have the photocopies and the official translations. Could we

23 have a number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] DH1638 is the report number.

25 DH1638/E will be the English version. As far as the photographs are

Page 12746

1 concerned, the number will be DH1639.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have marked these documents

3 for identification. Once we have the photographs, we'll provide them

4 with definitive numbers. And once we have the official translations, we

5 will provide definitive numbers, too, but we will bear these documents in

6 mind.

7 Witness, this completes your testimony. Thank you for coming to

8 The Hague. You have answered all the questions put to you by both

9 parties and the Judges. We wish you a good trip home and all the best in

10 your current career as head of the forensic department. Thank you.

11 And if there are no other issues to be raised, I will see

12 everyone at the hearing tomorrow at 9.00. Thank you.

13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.01 p.m.,

14 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of

15 December, 2004, at 9.00 a.m.

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