1 Thursday, 2 December 2004
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can you call the
6 case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number IT-01-47-T, the
8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Could we have the Appearances for the Prosecution.
11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning,
12 Your Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom on this
13 the second day of the first -- the first day of the second year of this
14 trial. The Prosecution is represented by Stefan Waespi, Daryl Mundis, and
15 Andres Vatter, our case manager.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 And could we have the Appearances for Defence counsel.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On
19 behalf of Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, counsel, Stefane Bourgon,
20 co-counsel and Muriel Cauvin.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And could we have
22 the appearances for the other Defence team.
23 MR. DIXON: Good morning, Your Honour. On behalf of Kubura, it's
24 Mr. Rod Dixon with Nermin Mulalic.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Trial Chamber
1 would like to greet everyone present, members of the Prosecution, the
2 Defence, the accused, and in particular our new usher who is assisting our
3 Chamber for the first time. I'd also like to greet the court reporter and
4 the interpreters, who are doing a good job.
5 I have something I'd like to say about next week. A few days ago
6 I said that because of the Plenary session that will be held on the 8th of
7 December, on Wednesday, we will have to have a hearing in the afternoon on
8 Thursday. That in fact, it would be possible to have a hearing in
9 courtroom number II, in the morning on Thursday. So we can have a hearing
10 on Thursday morning. The registrar will check this, but this is something
11 I found out about yesterday afternoon.
12 If there are no other issues to be raised, we could call the
13 witness into the courtroom. But before we do so, let's go into private
14 session first.
15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in private session,
16 Mr. President.
17 [Private session]
12 Page 12749 – redacted – private session.
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Could the usher call
19 the witness into the courtroom now.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I'd first like
22 to make sure that you can hear what I am saying, that you understand what
23 I'm saying. You must be receiving the interpretation, unless you know
24 French. If you can hear me and understand me, please say so.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand you.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In a few minutes you will take
2 the solemn declaration, but before you do so, I would be grateful if you
3 could tell me your first and last names, your date and place of birth.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Samin Konjalic. I was
5 born in Bosnia, in Travnik, on the 3rd of October, 1958.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you currently hold a position
7 of any kind, and if so, what position do you hold?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work in Travnik municipality for
9 the administrative bodies.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in what capacity do you work
11 with them? Are you involved in administration? What are your exact
12 duties in Travnik municipality?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work as an official, or rather, as
14 a professional advisor for the chief of the municipality, for the head of
15 the municipality.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. In 1992 and 1993,
17 did you hold a position of any kind, and if so, what position did you
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was a member of the civilian
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In which municipality?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Travnik municipality.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could you please
24 read out the solemn declaration.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: SAMIN KONJALIC
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.
5 In a few minutes' time I will give the floor to Defence counsel
6 who will examine you. But I would first like to provide you with some
7 information about the procedure that will be followed here.
8 You will first have to answer questions put to you by Defence
9 counsel. You have certainly met them already. They are to your left.
10 Usually their examination should take between an hour and an hour and a
11 half. After they have completed their examination-in-chief - that's what
12 we call it - you will have to answer questions put to you by the
13 Prosecution. They are to your right. And they will conduct what we call
14 their cross-examination.
15 The questions put to you by the Prosecution have two objectives;
16 firstly, to obtain clarifications to answers that you have provided to the
17 Defence, and secondly to verify your credibility as a witness. These are
18 the objectives of the cross-examination. The Prosecution is allocated the
19 same amount of time as the Defence.
20 After this stage has been completed, Defence counsel may
21 re-examine you. The questions they put to you will be directly related to
22 the questions put to you in the course of the cross-examination.
23 When the parties examine you, you may be shown documents. You
24 will then have a look at the documents and answer the questions.
25 The three Judges sitting before you may also ask you questions at
1 any point in time, but as a rule, the Judges prefer to wait for the
2 parties to finish their examination and cross-examination before asking
3 questions, because often the questions the Judges have might be questions
4 that the parties will put to you. So we prefer to wait for the end. If
5 we ask you questions, it may be to clarify some of your answers, or
6 because we believe that there are certain gaps in your testimony. The
7 Judges may also show you documents; we have a series of documents that are
8 in the hands of the registrar.
9 Once the Judges have asked their questions, and you have answered
10 them, both parties may ask you additional questions. So you've probably
11 understood that numerous questions will be put to you. If you feel that a
12 question is complicated, ask the person putting it to you to rephrase it,
13 because apart from the fact that we know you're a member of the civilian
14 protection, the Judges know nothing about you. We don't have any written
15 documents that concern you, and this is why your oral answers are so
16 important. You should understand that your answers are very important for
17 the Judges. Try to answer the questions as precisely as possible. This
18 is what we expect of you.
19 You are a witness, and a witness has certain rights and certain
20 obligations. As far as your obligations are concerned, you have taken the
21 solemn declaration. It is, therefore, your duty to speak the truth.
22 However, if a witness gives false testimony, I should inform you of the
23 fact that the witness could be prosecuted for contempt of court, and could
24 be punished and sentenced to a term in prison.
25 A witness has rights when questions are put to him. If you
1 believe that your answer to a question might provide information that
2 could be used to prosecute you at a subsequent date, in such a case, you
3 may refuse to answer the question. This is the witness's right. But the
4 Rules limit this right in that the Chamber may compel the witness to
5 answer the question. But if that occurs, the Trial Chamber grants the
6 witness a form of immunity. This is a provision contained in our Rules,
7 and it is a provision that exists to enable us to determine the truth.
8 If you encounter any difficulties in the course of the hearing, do
9 inform us of the fact. We are here to deal with any difficulties that may
10 arise. I wanted to provide you with this information, as this is what we
11 do whenever a witness appears before the Chamber.
12 I will now give the floor to the Defence, who will provide you
13 with additional information.
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
15 Examined by Ms. Residovic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Konjalic. As the President of
17 the Trial Chamber has just said, I would also like to ask you to pay
18 attention to one further matter; namely, the two of us speak the same
19 language, and you would be able to answer my questions the moment I put it
20 to you. However, both my questions and your answers need to be
21 interpreted so that Your Honours and our colleagues in the courtroom could
22 follow. Therefore, when I put my question to you, please wait a moment to
23 give a chance to the interpreters to interpret fully, and only then answer
24 it. Do you understand?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Konjalic, where are you living now?
2 A. I'm living in Bosnia, in a small town called Travnik.
3 Q. And where did you live at the beginning of the war in
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in April 1992?
5 A. I was living in the same country and in the same town, the town of
7 Q. You told us what you are doing now. Tell us, what is your
8 occupation and training, and where you acquired it?
9 A. By profession, I have a degree in politicology, and I graduated
10 from the university in Sarajevo in 1972.
11 Q. Did you do your military service before the war, and if so, did
12 you have a rank?
13 A. Yes, I did my military service in the former JNA, but I don't have
14 a rank from that army.
15 Q. What were your activities or duties until the beginning of the
16 war, or just before the war broke out?
17 A. Up until the beginning of the war, that is, up until 1990, I was
18 working as a teacher of sociology in the secondary school centre. Before
19 the war broke out, in fact, I transferred to the administration of the
20 Travnik municipality, more specifically the civil defence, and that was
21 the post I held when the war broke out. And throughout the duration of
22 the war, I was in the civil defence.
23 Q. Mr. Konjalic, could you tell us in greater detail what your duties
24 were within the framework of the civil defence or the civil defence staff?
25 A. I was a member of the staff at the beginning, and later I became
1 chief of staff, and as of 1993, I was commander of the civil defence
2 staff. I must also point out that after that I was also appointed
3 commander of the district staff for Central Bosnia.
4 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, which law governs the position and
5 regulates the position of the civil defence in the country's defence.
6 A. The law on defence.
7 Q. Can you recall, or do you know which forms of defence are
8 stipulated by the law on defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
9 A. There's military defence and civil defence, according to the law
10 on defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 Q. Which part of defence was provided by the civil defence in which
12 you held the positions you have just told us about?
13 A. Civil defence was part of the civil defence system.
14 Q. And in 1992 and 1993, which was the superior body above the civil
16 A. The superior body was the War Presidency, or rather, the
17 government of the municipality.
18 Q. Could you tell us briefly, what were the main tasks of the civil
19 defence in those days?
20 A. Not just then but then and after, the main duty of the civil
21 defence is to protect the population and their property from any kind of
22 man-made or natural disasters.
23 Q. In order to perform those duties, did the civil defence have
24 certain resources so as to be able to protect and save people and their
25 material belongings?
1 A. Yes, the civil defence applies the civil defence measures. There
2 are several measures; if you wish, I can list them. And for each of those
3 measures, there is a staff member in charge of that particular measure.
4 So there are measures of rescuing, then finding shelter, measures against
5 fires. There are 17 different measures that the civil defence resorts to.
6 Q. You told us which activities you were engaged in in the Travnik
7 civil defence. Tell us, until when were you working in the civil defence,
8 be it in the municipal or the district civil defence?
9 A. Until the end of 1995.
10 Q. So, throughout the war, you were working in the civil defence.
11 Then you can certainly tell us whether the civil defence was a military or
12 a civil entity.
13 A. The civil defence was a civilian entity.
14 Q. To the best of your knowledge, was the civil defence at any point
15 in time subordinated to the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
16 A. No.
17 Q. And did, perhaps, units of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, were
18 they, perhaps, subordinated to civil defence staffs at any point in time?
19 A. No.
20 Q. In answer to my previous question, you said that you were
21 subordinated to the War Presidency and the government. Tell me, which
22 were the bodies that gave you assignments, instructions, and tasks which
23 it was your duty to implement?
24 A. Our instructions came from the War Presidency, from the
25 government, and, to some extent, from the operations group.
1 Q. If you were assigned tasks by units of the army of Bosnia and
2 Herzegovina, were these tasks that you were obliged to carry out or were
3 they just suggestions for you as a civilian body?
4 A. A military body could not issue any orders to us; therefore, all
5 their orders were more like suggestions as to what we should do at a given
7 Q. Generally speaking, in those days in 1993, what kind of
8 relationship were you seeking to establish with the army of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina in your area?
10 A. We were partners. We assisted one another.
11 Q. Tell me, please, on the basis of your knowledge and experience
12 from those days, did the civil defence encounter problems in carrying out
13 its duties in Travnik municipality, and if so, which?
14 A. Yes, it did. I have to say that from the very beginning, as soon
15 as the aggression against my state started, the civil defence premises
16 were looted, though they were very well equipped previously. So they were
17 left without the basic materiel and equipment. Because our warehouse was
18 within the military facilities, there was one building where we kept our
19 equipment. And when the aggression took place, there was a large influx
20 of refugees to our town so that we were not ready for it, and none of the
21 plans that we had made provision for any such thing. So we had problems
22 providing food for the refugees, accommodating them, a shortage of living
23 space, et cetera.
24 Q. You mentioned some of the civil defence measures that you were
25 able to undertake to protect and save people and property. Tell us,
1 within the framework of the civil defence staff, were there people who
2 were professionals? And to what extent were professionals important for
3 the civil defence?
4 A. All members of the staff were professional people. Let me start
5 with me as the commander. I completed my training and had all the
6 necessary certificates even before the war, when I attended training in
7 Belgrade, or rather, Zemun, for civil defence staff members. And most of
8 my staff also had completed such training. These are mainly people
9 belonging to the profession, so that the measure of protection against
10 infectious diseases was led by an epidemiologist, a doctor, who
11 specialised in this area. The measure for rescuing people from the rubble
12 was headed by a graduate architect, and so on.
13 Q. Mr. Konjalic, in those days, who carried out civil defence tasks
14 in the field, in villages, in local communes?
15 A. There were local commune staffs that we trained, and also
16 commissioners of the civil defence.
17 Q. Did the civil defence staff train the commissioners and local
18 commune civil defence staffs?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Who were those commissioners in the field, and did they enjoy a
21 certain degree of respect among the population?
22 A. Only a citizen of reputation and high ethics could become a
23 commissioner for the civil defence, a person enjoying respect in his
25 Q. Tell me, Mr. Konjalic, when you received reports from your
1 commissioners or the commissions that you formed locally, tell us to what
2 extent you felt that such reports reliable and accurate.
3 A. I never doubted the truthfulness of those reports, and I consider
4 them absolutely correct.
5 Q. In your area there was a combat operation between the army and the
6 HVO in June. Tell me, after those operations, did the civil defence staff
7 receive certain specific assignments within the framework of its
9 A. Yes, it did. We received such assignments both from the War
10 Presidency and from the government and from the operations group, and what
11 we had to do was to sanitise the terrain, and which is -- or, to clear up
12 the terrain. And this is part of the activities of the civil defence.
13 Q. In addition to that, did the civil defence engage in other
14 activities which were meant to protect abandoned property, agricultural
15 land, and livestock?
16 A. Yes, that is also one of our duties. We formed commissions which
17 we sent out to the field to record the facts. And after that we sought to
18 protect property, land, and everything else, such as livestock and the
20 Q. A moment ago, answering one of my questions, you said that a large
21 number of refugees had come to Travnik. Tell me, could you tell us
22 roughly the number of refugees you're referring to when you say that they
23 were numerous?
24 A. I don't have the exact figures, but I can tell you with certainty
25 that, counting those that passed through Travnik and those that stayed in
1 Travnik, there were more than 200.000.
2 Q. In view of the wartime situation, was it simple, was it easy to
3 provide food and accommodation for such a large number of people?
4 A. Far from it. You see, Travnik is a town which had a population of
5 70.000 before the war, and it would happen that more than 30.000 people
6 would reach our town in one day. So you can imagine the kind of problems
7 we had to take care of those people, to feed them and put them up
8 somewhere. These were superhuman efforts that my men had to invest.
9 Q. Mr. Konjalic, are you aware that, after those operations in June,
10 the majority of the Croat population from the Bila valley abandoned their
11 homes and headed either towards Nova Bila or other areas under HVO
13 A. Yes, I am aware of that. But I would add that the population
14 moved not only from the Bila valley but from the town of Travnik as well,
15 and all the surrounding villages. The Croats simply left their homes and
16 went away.
17 Q. The fact that such a large area was left without any population,
18 in carrying out its duties of protecting property, was the civil defence
19 confronted with additional and new problems?
20 A. Indeed, there were a large number of new problems that cropped up,
21 the worst being, or the most important being, how to protect a large
22 amount of property on such a large area, and with such few people that the
23 civil defence had at its disposal and a small number of commissioners.
24 Q. Tell me, Mr. Konjalic, when, after these operations, the routes
25 from Travnik towards the Bila valley and Zenica were opened again, did the
1 population start to move again, and especially refugees who had been
2 accommodated in collective lodgings?
3 A. Yes, and it was a stampede. These were large groups of refugees
4 who were trying to save themselves in other areas.
5 Q. You said that, among other things, your task was to form
6 commissions which were to organise moving into property that had been
7 abandoned. Why did you believe that this measure would be a good one to
8 protect property?
9 A. Well, the staff believed that if someone had moved into a house
10 and lived there, it was easier to protect it. The person living there
11 would protect it. This is what we tried to do. And in accordance with an
12 order from the president and a member of the government, we tried to move
13 a certain number of refugees into housing. Naturally, the appropriate
14 procedure was followed when doing this. And, in fact, the houses into
15 which people -- in which people lived were protected, so the staff was
16 correct in making this assessment.
17 Q. In response to my previous question, you said that there was
18 practically a stampede of people, this large-scale movement of people.
19 Did this have an effect on your work, or rather, was it impossible for you
20 to carry out your task of moving people into these houses completely? And
21 did you have to face problems such as these houses already being occupied
22 by refugees?
23 A. Yes. The civil protection, the civilian protection tried to move
24 refugees into houses in a planned manner, but certain refugees preempted
25 us and they moved into houses without the civilian protection being aware
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 of this, without this being put on record. Naturally, they were concerned
2 for themselves because they were bored with life in collective centres,
3 and as soon as they could, they moved into abandoned houses. And this
4 mostly concerned the houses nearer to the town.
5 Q. Mr. Konjalic, when in the field, and when you made a record of the
6 state of property and of the people moving into property, did you notice
7 incidents such as looting or incidents involving the destruction of some
8 of those homes that had been abandoned?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Although you were not in the police, do you know to what extent it
11 was possible, in the conditions that prevailed at the time, to determine
12 who the perpetrators of these acts were? And did your commissioners tell
13 you about when and how such acts were committed?
14 A. Well, look, it was difficult to know who the perpetrators were,
15 because most of these individuals were individuals whom the civilian
16 protection did not know. Mostly, they were refugees; there were some
17 local inhabitants, too, whose houses were destroyed or shelled. They
18 remained without food, and you know that people were almost starving. So
19 it was difficult to -- not to expect that someone might go into an
20 abandoned house to take a bag of flour. People went to these abandoned
21 houses in order to obtain a certain amount of food. This concerned a vast
22 number of people, and the civilian protection -- no one from the civilian
23 protection could say who was involved.
24 Q. Mr. Konjalic, this unfortunate process of stealing property or
25 destroying property, did this take place throughout 1993 and later on, or
1 was it over after a few days?
2 A. Well, no, it didn't come to an end after a few days. After a few
3 days had passed, it was mostly food that was stolen. But the process
4 continued. Equipment was looted, and even roofs -- roof tiles were taken,
5 windows, doors, et cetera. So the looting of this abandoned property
7 Q. Mr. Konjalic, did you continue to strengthen the measures that you
8 had taken for protection, and did you re-examine the situation, the state
9 of the property? Or rather, towards the end of 1993, did you take
10 additional measures for the protection of the property and the livestock
11 and the goods?
12 A. Yes. This was our duty. And we continued to work to update our
13 information and to continue to protect abandoned property, naturally, to
14 the extent this was possible, because the commissioners and the members of
15 the staff weren't able to be on duty around the clock. They couldn't
16 guard every building in such a vast area throughout that period of time.
17 Q. Since you said that you were a member of the civilian protection
18 in the municipality or the district right up until 1995, could you say
19 whether that problem, the problem of looting and destruction of property
20 continued right up until 1995? Could you confirm that?
21 A. Yes, I can confirm that that was the case.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher help us to show
23 the witness a series of documents. I will then have a few questions to
24 put to the witness in relation to these documents. We have a sufficient
25 number of copies for the Trial Chamber and for our colleagues.
1 Q. Mr. Konjalic, could you please have a look at document number 9,
2 Defence number 1566. And once you have had a look at the first page,
3 could you tell me whether this is a document from the civilian protection
4 municipal staff.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Have a look at the last page of the report and tell me who signed
7 it as commander of the civilian protection municipal staff.
8 A. I did.
9 Q. Could you just have a brief look at the contents of the document,
10 and once you have had a look at the document, would you stay that this is,
11 in fact, what the civilian protection did in 1993, and are these the sort
12 of problems that you had to confront at the time?
13 A. Yes, one could say so. This would be the briefest sort of report
14 compiled by the civilian protection.
15 Q. Please have a look at document number 1 now. The number is
16 DH1225. Mr. Konjalic, are you familiar with this document?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What sort of duty did you perform in the civilian protection staff
19 when Malenica Momcila was the commander?
20 A. I was the chief of the staff.
21 Q. In the third paragraph in this report, it mentions problems, or
22 rather, the conclusions of your commissioners who had been in the field,
23 and in line 1 it says that:
24 "In spite of a ban prohibiting citizens to move around in the
25 abandoned areas, a large number of citizens were observed removing
1 abandoned property, taking away cattle," et cetera.
2 What is stated here, would that be the result of your personal
3 information and information that you obtained from your commissioners and
4 municipal staffs?
5 A. Yes, exactly. All the information and all the reports were
6 compiled on the basis of reports from the field. For the staff to take a
7 decision, it was necessary to have certain information either from the
8 staff of a certain local commune or from commissioners from the area
10 Q. Mr. Konjalic, you as chief of staff, and later on as a commander
11 of the civilian protection staff, did you yourself go into the field and
12 talk to your commissioners? Were you able to verify the claims that they
13 made in their reports?
14 A. Yes, but I must admit that this did not happen frequently,
15 because, given my duties, I wasn't able to be absent from the staff very
16 often. Whenever it was possible, I visited local commune staffs and
17 commissioners in the field.
18 Q. Could you please have a look at document number 2 now, DH1233. A
19 while ago you said that you took various measures in order to protect and
20 guard abandoned property. Would this be one of the ways in which you and
21 the staff tried to protect abandoned property in a large area?
22 A. If you like, I could provide you with an explanation of this
24 Q. Please go ahead.
25 A. Well, the civilian protection, when involved with the protection
1 of abandoned property, took certain steps. They issued these certificates
2 to individuals who were already in the village concerned. So if anyone
3 else appeared and wanted to move into the abandoned house, or destroyed,
4 in such a case, this individual could show the certificate obtained from
5 the staff, this certificate demonstrating that this individual was
6 responsible for the house or the property.
7 Q. Please have a look at document number 3, DH1256. Since you have
8 mentioned the problems that you were confronted with, did you inform the
9 government or the War Presidency in Travnik of these problems in good
10 time, and did you request their assistance in dealing with the problems
11 that you were confronted with?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you recognise this document, and the person who signed it?
14 A. Yes, I recognise the document. It's from the civilian protection
15 municipal staff, and I signed the document.
16 Q. Have a quick look at the document and tell me whether this is how
17 you would inform your superiors of the problems and difficulties that you
18 encountered when carrying out your tasks.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you have a look at document number 4, DH1302. Is this also
21 a document you are familiar with?
22 A. Yes. This is also a document from the municipal civilian
23 protection staff, and I signed the document.
24 Q. Is this an example of how you would inform the government about
25 the problems that you encountered when trying to move certain individuals
1 into houses in an organised manner, in order to protect abandoned
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. Could you have a look at document number 5 now, DH1303. A minute
5 ago you said that people left collective centres, and there was a sort of
6 stampede. But could you tell me if the collective centre, the collection
7 centre, was a school or something like that, how many people were kept
8 were kept there while the town was under blockade?
9 A. Well, for a certain period of time in the secondary school
10 building, there was about four and a half thousand refugees. And in a
11 room that was the size of a classroom in which you usually have 25 pupils,
12 there were up to 90 refugees who slept there and lived there.
13 Q. Was this a difficult situation, in fact, the reason for which they
14 tried to move out of those buildings and, in a certain sense, solve this
15 difficult problem?
16 A. Yes, of course. They were living in very difficult conditions.
17 So whenever one attempted to do something new, this meant they were trying
18 to improve their conditions.
19 Q. Have a look at document number 5, DH1303. Does this reflect some
20 of the problems you have just testified about?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. In answer to my previous questions, Mr. Konjalic, you said that
23 you would receive tasks on a continuous basis, and that you carried out
24 your duties and regularly informed the authorities of your problems.
25 Please look now at document 6, 7, and 8, and tell me, please, whether you
1 are familiar with this document, the document under number 6.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is it a document of your staff?
4 A. Yes, it is a document of the civilian protection municipal staff,
5 written by me.
6 Q. Does it reflect a continuous concern about abandoned agricultural
7 land in the municipality, and an attempt to let individuals use it
8 provisionally so as to be able to survive and to protect that property at
9 the same time? This document is Defence Exhibit 1537.
10 Please look now at document number 7, Defence Exhibit 1540, and
11 tell me, please, are you familiar with this document?
12 A. Yes. This is also a document of the municipal staff which I
13 signed as the commander.
14 Q. In addition to the problems of refugees, did you also have a
15 problem regarding the provision of food and accommodation of displaced
16 persons, and even the local population which was not receiving any kind of
17 aid from international organisations, the UNHCR, and others that provided
18 aid only for the refugees?
19 A. Quite so. I have to state here that, during that period of time,
20 the local residents were living under worse conditions than the refugees,
21 except for accommodation, because the refugees would receive something,
22 but the local population received nothing. They had spent all the food
23 reserves they had, and we were unable to help them. So that the local
24 residents were, in many cases, hungrier than the refugees.
25 Q. Was that situation why the abandoned land was being tilled, so
1 that those inhabitants could be fed?
2 A. Precisely so. Our aim was to allot land to the local inhabitants
3 and the refugees for them to till so as to be able to grow food for
5 Q. Now look at document number 8, please, and tell me, is it a
6 document that you may be familiar with as an example of how you acted as
7 the civil defence?
8 A. Yes, I am familiar with this document. It is of the municipal
9 civil defence staff, signed by the then chief, Mr. Irfan Samardzic, who
10 acted as chief when I was the commander.
11 Q. This is Defence document 1541. Mr. Konjalic, when you look back
12 to the period in 1993, when you were performing such important civilian
13 activities, could you tell us whether you did your very best under the
14 prevailing conditions to protect the property of people who had left their
15 homes, and, according to your sincere conviction, do you think you could
16 have done anything more to prevent further devastation and destruction of
17 that property?
18 A. We did everything that was in our power; I would say even twice as
19 much. However, I wish to underline once again that when there was this
20 stampede of people and all those developments, even had the civil defence
21 been double in size, it couldn't have protected all the abandoned
22 property, whether we're talking about houses, land, or livestock, because
23 it's an enormous area, a large number of inhabitants, and a lot of houses
24 and land. But we did everything we could.
25 Q. Tell me, did the civilian authorities call on the population that
1 had left to come back, to return, so as to be in their homes, and also to
2 protect all the damage that was inflicted on their property from the
3 moment they left until the end of the war?
4 A. Yes, we did everything to call the population to come back, but
5 this was very difficult. You see, almost in all the villages there would
6 be someone left, and it was easy in that case to protect them. But
7 villages where there was not a single inhabitant, and a village is large,
8 it was very hard to do anything, because, you see, you can't watch over a
9 house 24 hours in order to save it.
10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Konjalic, for answering my questions.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have the Defence counsel for the
12 second accused got any questions for this witness?
13 MR. DIXON: No, Your Honour, we don't have any questions for this
14 witness. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution for the
17 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:
19 Q. Good morning, witness. My name is Daryl Mundis, and, along with
20 my colleagues here, we represent the Prosecution in this case. I have
21 just a few questions for you today, sir, but I would like to reiterate
22 what the Presiding Judge told you this morning in terms of the questions
23 that I'll be asking you. And I would ask, if any of my questions are
24 confusing or you don't understand them, please tell me that and I will
25 rephrase the question. It is certainly not my intention in any way to
1 confuse you by the questions that I ask you this morning.
2 Do you understand that, sir?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Let me ask you this: You told us that there were more than
5 200.000 refugees in the Travnik area, or people who were passing through
6 or remained in Travnik. Was that the total number of refugees, or were
7 there 200.000 at any given point?
8 A. No. Never was there a total of 200.000. I said that more than
9 200.000 passed through Travnik, but the number of those who permanently
10 resided in Travnik was between 25 and 30.000 refugees.
11 Q. Let me ask you, if you would, if you could turn to the document,
12 that's tab number 3 that you have before you, which is DH1256. And if you
13 look at the second paragraph, there is reference to "around 18.000
14 refugees." Do you see that in the document?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. I take it, sir, from this document, that at the -- or on or about
17 the 25th of June, 1993, does that reflect the total number of -- or
18 approximate number of refugees in Travnik municipality at that time?
19 A. This was the number of refugees that the municipal staff knew the
20 names of and their origin. But the number was much higher than this.
21 These were registered refugees, registered in the municipal staff.
22 Q. Sir, you also told us earlier that the civil defence or civilian
23 protection staff was not in any way subordinated to the army; is that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you told us, though, that you did work together as partners
2 with the army; is that accurate?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. And I believe it was your testimony that the army or its units
5 would make suggestions to the civil defence staff.
6 A. I said that they would mostly suggest to us to do our part of the
7 work; that is, they would signal when the time came, because of the war
8 operations, for us to do our part of the work.
9 Q. You also mentioned, I believe, twice this morning the operations
10 group. I assume that that was the Bosanska Krajina operations group?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And I take it that most of the suggestions that you received from
13 the 3rd Corps came from the operations group, Bosanska Krajina?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you turn, please, to the document, tab number 1, that you have
16 in front of you, which is DH1255. I'd ask you, sir, to take a look at the
17 first paragraph of that document, and you'll see in that document a
18 reference to the orders of the OG Bosanska Krajina command. And I ask you
19 if the use of the word "orders" is consistent with the notion that they
20 were simply suggesting or working in partnership with the civilian defence
21 staff, in your opinion.
22 A. Yes, this word "order" was not interpreted by us as an order.
23 This is the way in which an army operates. But for us, this was a
24 suggestion, to act as suggested, to go along and carry out our measures.
25 And those measures related to the protection of the livestock. And this
1 was not an order issued by the government or the presidency, but it was
2 more of a suggestion to the municipal staff for us to be able to start our
3 work, because there were combat operations and we were not sure when it
4 was safe enough for people to go out into the field to carry out their
5 duties. So this was more of a suggestion.
6 Q. Let me turn now to some questions you were asked towards the end
7 of the direct examination. You told us that many of the local residents
8 were worse off than the refugees when it came to obtaining foodstuffs; is
9 that accurate?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did the civilian defence staff have any interaction with
12 humanitarian organisations to provide such food relief?
13 A. Yes, we were working on a continuous basis with the humanitarian
15 Q. And did this include foreign humanitarian organisations?
16 A. Yes. We were in touch with the UNHCR, the International Red
17 Cross, and Medicine Sans Frontieres.
18 Q. Were you aware of the presence of foreign humanitarian workers in
20 A. There were humanitarian workers who were foreign, not just in
21 Mehurici but in the town of Travnik. Yes, there were some everywhere.
22 I'm aware of that.
23 Q. How much liaison work --
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did not object to
25 the previous question. The witness has answered it. But this question is
1 not linked to the examination-in-chief, nor is it linked to the documents
2 I have shown the witness. So I think we need to know on what grounds the
3 Prosecution is asking this question.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you see there's
5 an objection. But I note in document number 6 -- no, 5, I'm sorry,
6 "Conclusion," under number 2, it says: "The government would ask Merhamet
7 to continue with the operation."
8 Isn't Merhamet a humanitarian organisation, a foreign one?
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, it's a domestic humanitarian
10 organisation, as far as I know.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness could
13 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.
14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.
15 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the organisation Merhamet?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you know where that organisation is based?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please.
20 A. The headquarters of that organisation is in Sarajevo, and of the
21 municipal Merhamet organisation, in Travnik itself. And it has branches,
22 I think, in Turbe, Mehurici, perhaps in some other places, smaller branch
24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the leave of the Trial Chamber,
25 in order to fully respond to the objection to the prior line of
1 questioning, I would ask that I be permitted to do so in the absence of
2 the witness, unless the Chamber will permit me to continue asking a few
3 questions along the lines I was pursuing.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let us ask the witness to leave
5 for a few minutes, please.
6 [The witness stands down]
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you have the
9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 As the Trial Chamber is aware, there has been, on numerous
11 occasions, evidence put before Your Honours about the foreign humanitarian
12 workers in and around Travnik municipality, and especially around
13 Mehurici. There has also been evidence before this Trial Chamber that
14 such humanitarian workers came to Bosnia as humanitarian aid workers, but
15 some of them subsequently took up arms under the guise of being Mujahedin.
16 This witness has testified about the scope of his duties, which
17 included, among the civil protection functions, of providing food, aid,
18 and shelter to both the refugees and members of the local communities in
19 the Travnik municipality. As such, and in light of his previous answer to
20 the first question I put to him, this witness may be in a position to
21 provide information concerning such foreign humanitarian workers. It's
22 simply, Mr. President, it is a direct link to his testimony about the
23 difficulties encountered by the civil protection authorities in terms of
24 providing aid to the local community and to the refugee community.
25 We believe that this is -- stems directly from his
1 cross-examination, and we don't anticipate asking this witness a large
2 number of questions on this issue. But it depends on what information, if
3 any, he has that might be important to the Trial Chamber on this point.
4 And, of course, the issue of foreign humanitarian workers and the links to
5 the Mujahedin was set forth in the indictment as well, so we believe that
6 this witness, because of the position he had, may have some relevant
7 information that is of assistance to the Trial Chamber, and it's our
8 position that that stems directly from his direct examination and the full
9 scope of his duties during the time period relevant to this indictment.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give the floor again to the
11 Defence. But to summarise, the Prosecution tells us that they wish to put
12 a question to the witness concerning humanitarian workers, whether they be
13 foreign or national, and to ask him whether he knew that there were
14 foreign humanitarian workers. And the Prosecution would like to be
15 authorised to ask a question about the Mujahedin. The Prosecution tells
16 us that, on a number of occasions, witnesses have come to testify about
17 the presence of humanitarian -- foreign humanitarian workers who, at
18 first, brought food, money, psychological support, and other kinds of
19 support to the displaced population, and that subsequently these
20 humanitarian workers were "converted" to armed combatants. And that is
21 why the Prosecution would like to put questions to the witness.
22 The Defence objected a moment ago, and in the light of what has
23 been said, what is the position of the Defence?
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we fully
25 acknowledge the arguments put forth by our learned colleagues from the
1 Prosecution, that is, that they have a need to elucidate, investigate, or
2 learn in some other way about the facts that my colleague has referred to
3 and which have to do with foreigners, including foreign humanitarian
4 workers, some of whom became men under arms.
5 However, Mr. President, we are in a court, in criminal
6 proceedings, and are strictly bound by the rules of this Tribunal. And
7 Rule 90(H)(ii) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, (H)(ii), the
8 cross-examination is limited, and it is clearly stipulated what is
9 allowed. And I will quote:
10 "In the cross-examination of a witness who is able to give
11 evidence relevant to the case for the cross-examining party, counsel shall
12 put to that witness the nature of the case of the party for whom that
13 counsel appears which is in contradiction of the evidence given by the
15 So there are two convictions; that counsel shall put forth the
16 nature of what they are trying to prove, and which must be in
17 contradiction with the evidence given by the witness.
18 So far we haven't heard any question that may be in contradiction
19 with what this witness has said, so such a broad interpretation of the
20 rights of cross-examination is not allowed in the Rules of Procedure and
21 Evidence, and is in contradiction with the Statute of this Tribunal and
22 the rights of the accused, especially as this witness has nothing to do
23 with the Mujahedin or any other such broad issue which the Prosecution has
24 offered in argument. So I think he cannot be said to have contradicted
25 anything. And for that reason, we feel that the Prosecution should not be
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 allowed to put such questions to this witness.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Mundis, do you wish to
3 respond to the Defence, whose arguments are based on the provisions of
4 Rule 90(H)(ii), which says that when a party is cross-examining, he must
5 show evidence that contradicts his testimony; and it must also specify the
6 nature of the case which affects also the credibility of the witness. And
7 there is point (iii) which refers to the rights of the Trial Chamber in
8 that regard.
9 Mr. Mundis.
10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Our position, actually, is
11 that this would fall more under Rule 90(H)(i) because it arose out of
12 subject matter of the evidence in chief, number one.
13 Number two, however, let me put forward our position that, in
14 order to get to the point where we can test the credibility of the
15 witness, or put our case to the witness, we need to lay a foundation and
16 establish if the witness even has any knowledge about the matter so that
17 we can get to that point. And I would simply suggest that the first
18 question that I put to the witness was getting to the point where we can
19 determine if the witness does, in fact, know anything about these foreign
20 humanitarian aid workers, not to mention whether we can then get to the
21 next point that he may or may not know anything about, which is the issue
22 of whether they, in fact, were converted, or some of them were converted,
23 into Mujahedin.
24 So I think it's actually a bit premature for my learned colleague
25 to say that the witness doesn't know anything about the Mujahedin until I
1 put those questions to him. If he says he doesn't know anything about
2 them, then that's either the end of the cross-examination on that point,
3 or I'm then going to challenge his credibility based on whether or not he
4 could not know about that in light of the large amount of evidence on the
6 So it's premature at this point to even be raising 90(H)(ii) until
7 I've laid some kind of a foundation that would go down that path. But
8 again, our primary response is that we are attempting to cross-examine him
9 on matters arising directly out of his evidence in chief.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is almost half past 10. We
11 will withdraw and we will render our decision when we resume work, which
12 will be at about five to 11.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber
16 will now render its decision relating to the objection raised by the
17 Defence, the Defence's objection to the Prosecution's wish to ask the
18 witness about foreign humanitarian workers in Travnik or in the area.
19 Pursuant to Rule 90(H)(i), it was said that the Prosecution
20 couldn't ask a question in its cross-examination that didn't directly
21 relate to the answer of the witness. The Prosecution responded to this
22 objection by saying that they could ask such questions, and all the more
23 so in that the witness had answered a question about foreign humanitarian
25 The Trial Chamber believes that it is in the interests of justice
1 for the witness, who was involved in the civilian protection, be asked
2 about all the aspects of the work of the civilian protection, and this
3 includes, naturally, the relations he might have had with humanitarian
4 organisations, especially if they were in the area where he performed his
5 duties. Therefore, the Prosecution is authorised to ask this witness the
7 As a result, I will now ask the usher to call the witness into the
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down.
11 The Prosecution may continue with its cross-examination.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Witness, prior to the time when you were escorted out of the
14 courtroom and we took the recess, I was asking you some questions about
15 foreign humanitarian aid workers in Travnik municipality during the time
16 period when you were with the civil protection. How much interaction, if
17 any, did you have with the humanitarian aid workers, the foreign
18 humanitarian aid workers, in Mehurici?
19 A. We did not communicate at all. I don't think I finished my
20 answer, so if I may clarify what I said. I'm familiar with a humanitarian
21 organisation called -- for children, it was called something like that.
22 There were three organisations, Caritas, Dobrotvor, and Merhamet. And
23 there was this organisation called Food For Children, that's what its name
24 was. But I don't know whose organisation it is. I was informed that
25 sometimes they would distribute milk or milk products for small children,
1 for babies.
2 Q. Sir, to the best of your recollection, when you say "we did not
3 communicate at all," did anyone in the Travnik municipal civil protection
4 staff, or civil defence staff, did anyone in your staff have any
5 communications with foreign humanitarian aid workers in Mehurici?
6 A. No. No. As far as I can remember, no. And it wasn't necessary.
7 I don't even know how they distributed this food for children, and I don't
8 know to whom they distributed this food.
9 Q. To your knowledge, was there any requirement for such a foreign
10 humanitarian organisation to register with the civil protection staff or
11 the municipal authorities?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do you know for how long the foreign humanitarian organisations
14 were operating out of Mehurici?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Do you know what happened to any of the foreigners who were
17 working for humanitarian organisations in Mehurici?
18 A. No.
19 Q. You told us earlier that you were familiar with them. Can you
20 tell us how? In what way were you familiar with the work they were doing?
21 A. Well, this children's organisation, Food For Children
22 organisation, was in the town itself. That's what it was called, although
23 I don't know English. I knew that it was a humanitarian organisation that
24 would provide or supply Food for Children and, on the whole, for small
25 children. And as the UNHCR provided us with food for children, it wasn't
1 necessary for us to have any contact with them or to work with them. I
2 don't even know who were the members of this organisation.
3 Q. Okay. Do you recall how you became aware of their presence in
5 A. I saw this name, Food For Children, in the town. I asked someone
6 what it meant, and a colleague of mine said it was an organisation that
7 supplied food for children, and it was present in two or three locations.
8 There was such an organisation in Mehurici, and I think there was another
9 one in Turbe, which is in a different direction.
10 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: Throughout your testimony today, it
11 seems to me that the terms "civil protection" and "civil defence" have
12 been used interchangeably. Is there a difference between civil defence
13 and civil protection?
14 A. Well, of course, I don't know the exact translation. I don't know
15 what civil protection and civil defence means in English. Civilian
16 protection, "civilna zastita," means protecting people and people's
17 property. Civil defence is probably a broader concept. It probably also
18 involves a civilian power, civilian authorities, in addition to the
19 protective aspect of the work. I'm still not sure what the right
20 translation is, but I think that the term "civil defence" is perhaps more
22 Q. Okay. That actually was my precise point. I wasn't sure the
23 differences in the Bosnian language which perhaps contributed to the fact
24 that it seems that the terms have been used interchangeably.
25 So I guess my question really is: In Bosnian, the name of the
1 organisation or agency that you worked for was "civil protection staff"?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So the correct term for the agency that you were with was the
4 Travnik municipal civil protection staff.
5 A. That's quite right.
6 Q. To your knowledge, was there any kind of agency or structure that
7 was known as the civil defence staff in Travnik municipality?
8 A. I'm not familiar with that name.
9 Q. So references, then, in today's testimony to civil defence would,
10 in fact, be to the Travnik municipal civil protection staff.
11 A. Yes. That's what I was referring to all the time.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, earlier you told us, I believe you testified that
13 there was some training that you underwent to gain expertise in civil
14 protection, and I believe you said you had that in Belgrade or perhaps an
15 area near Belgrade; I believe you said Zemun.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And I take it, then, sir, that you had that experience or training
18 prior to the war breaking out.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You told us earlier that the civil protection staff believed that
21 it was easier to protect civilian -- abandoned civilian real estate or
22 property if there were persons living there in those abandoned houses; is
23 that a fair summary?
24 A. That's quite right.
25 Q. Was that -- did that notion of the fact that it would be easier to
1 protect property if persons were living in there, was that part of the
2 training that you received to become a civil protection expert, manager?
3 A. That's one way to assist the inhabitants, the population, yes.
4 Q. To your knowledge, sir, was that the position of the Republic of
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina government during the time period in question?
6 A. Yes, it was.
7 Q. So I take it, then, that that would be a principle that would
8 apply throughout the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
9 A. Well, I don't know whether it was applied throughout the territory
10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but it was applied in Travnik.
11 Q. But the principle involved would be applicable throughout the
12 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, whether it was applied or not, but the
13 principle would remain the same.
14 A. That's what we did. That's how we worked. If you like, I can
15 explain why.
16 Q. I think you've done that previously. But let me just -- I'm
17 curious about this, because it would seem to me that if that were a
18 principle of general applicability, that the same principle would apply,
19 for example, to abandoned Bosniak homes in the Krajina or in other areas
20 where Serbs moved into those homes. Would that be -- would that fit
21 within civil protection?
22 A. We applied this principle to Bosniak houses, too, not only in the
23 case of Croat houses, because certain places were abandoned by Bosniaks,
24 too, and we would move in two or three families there. And we would make
25 them responsible for keeping watch over the other houses, and they were to
1 inform us if something undesirable happens that we could then inform the
2 competent authorities of the fact.
3 Q. Let me ask you, then, sir, a final question, if I could. The --
4 you told us earlier that the Croats in many areas in the Bila valley had
5 simply left the area. Do you know why?
6 A. I do. They were taken away by the HVO. I have reliable
7 information from Croat friends of mine who stayed on. They had very
8 serious problems because they didn't want to leave. And afterwards, they
9 weren't even considered to be good Croats.
10 Q. I apologise, because I told you that was my last question. I do
11 have one more question.
12 The documents that you've been shown today, the documents that
13 you've been shown today that you had signed, you signed those with the
14 title of commander, and the use of the term "commander" in the context of
15 a civil protection service seems a bit alien to someone who maybe is not
16 from Bosnia. I'm wondering if that was the regular term that was used for
17 civil protection officers, and if that implied any other kind of function
18 in terms of command, being the commander of the staff.
19 A. We'd been organised in accordance with the instructions issued.
20 The civilian protection staff consists of a commander, a chief, and a
21 certain number of staff members for providing protection. And what I
22 signed wasn't just signed in a military capacity. We had staff sessions.
23 And I must point out that my staff was multi-ethnic throughout the war;
24 there were Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs, and Albanians who were members of
25 the staff; and there were even members of the Roma community. And after
1 staff sessions, certain conclusions would be adopted. Only then can a
2 commander sign certain documents, if information or an analysis is at
4 Q. Thank you, sir.
5 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this
6 time, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence counsel?
8 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Konjalic, you mentioned the measures taken to
10 move certain individuals into houses, or rather, to cooperate with the BH
11 army, and you provided my learned colleague with a number of answers.
12 Could you tell me whether this cooperation also involved taking measures
13 to prevent property from being looted or damaged.
14 A. Yes. Since this was the zone of responsibility of the Krajina OG,
15 they'd have the responsibility or the authority to ban movement through
16 that area. So we asked them that if individuals didn't have certificates
17 that we had issued, that these people should not be allowed to enter those
18 areas. This was to enable us to perform our duties more easily.
19 Q. And when you now look back to that cooperation, could you tell me
20 whether these bans, if they were bans, concerned areas where there was
21 ongoing combat, or was it necessary for you to make any requests if you
22 are performing your duties in the free territory?
23 A. Well, in the free territory, it wasn't necessary for them to give
24 us certificates of any kind. On the whole, this took place in the zone of
25 combat, where people's lives might be at risk. So we didn't know where
1 the lines were, we didn't know where they were shooting from, so if a
2 member of ours entered the area, his life might be at risk. That's why we
3 asked the army to tell us where our people could go to perform their
5 Q. Mr. Konjalic, do you know whether the civilian and military
6 authorities took any other measures for cooperation? For example, did
7 they introduce a curfew, did they set up checkpoints to control the
8 movement of the population, to the extent that that was possible, or were
9 certain individuals arrested or prosecuted if it had been determined that
10 they had looted or destroyed houses?
11 A. Yes, there was a curfew for this very reason. At some point in
12 time, in the evening, people who didn't have passes, permits, were not
13 allowed to move around. The police was present in the town and they
14 carried out their duties. They were involved in the security of the
15 citizens in the town, and the troops were around the town where there was
16 combat activity. And naturally there were checkpoints, too, because it
17 wasn't that easy to gain access to the zone of combat.
18 Q. Thank you. My learned colleague asked you why the Croats had left
19 that area.
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In order to ask the witness my
21 following question, could he be shown Exhibit P890.
22 Q. Mr. Konjalic, could you have a look at the document, please. In
23 fact, this is a joint appeal to return to homes. When you were answering
24 a question from my learned colleague, you said that you had personal
25 knowledge from your Croat friends, that they said they were under great
1 pressure to leave the area together with the HVO.
2 Could you please tell me whether this document shows the sort of
3 efforts made by the civilian and military authorities to ensure that all
4 the citizens could return to their homes, in order to protect their own
5 property, among other things, because the MUP and army forces were not
6 able to secure all of the houses.
7 A. Yes, that's just what I said. This is the first time I've seen
8 the document, but I'm familiar with its contents, because to Muhamed
9 Curic, the president of the War Presidency, I made such a suggestion. And
10 I'm glad that they did in fact draft such a document.
11 Q. So were such appeals forwarded to citizens through the media and
12 in other ways so that your citizens could return and move back into their
14 A. Yes, that's quite right. We proceeded in this manner all the
15 time. The civil protection did this, too, as well as certain Croats who
16 had remained in the town; they would appeal to their family members to
18 Q. My learned colleague also asked you a question that concerned
19 certain principles, was it a principle that was followed, was one of the
20 principles the idea that the abandoned houses should be occupied, was
21 there a decision, a conclusion, from the War Presidency and the government
22 on the basis of which you took action in certain situations.
23 A. Well, we couldn't have acted in any other way. We received from
24 the government, or rather, from the War Presidency an order, according to
25 which we were do everything we could in order to protect property and
1 goods, and we acted accordingly.
2 Q. Mr. Konjalic, do you know whether, in the course of the war, many
3 series of life were governed by decree laws issued by the Presidency of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina at assemblies of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
5 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.
6 Q. Perhaps you can remember this, perhaps not. But do you know
7 whether, in 1992, a decree law was issued on temporarily abandoned
8 property, and was there another decree on temporarily abandoned flats?
9 And did these decrees regulate how abandoned flats and abandoned property
10 was to be moved into? And did these decrees guarantee that people who had
11 left such property could return.
12 A. Yes. I was familiar with that, and not just I. All the staff
13 members were familiar with those decrees.
14 Q. In accordance with those laws, at the end of the war, and when
15 those people returned, was this property returned to those people in
16 accordance with the law? And when they had suffered damage, were they
18 A. Yes. In the cases where civil protection moved people into
19 property legally, a record was made of the property found there. And when
20 the owner returned, the individuals in the houses had to return the
21 property, the house, and the items used. And these items were included in
22 a list.
23 Q. My last question concerns the titles "commander" and "chief" of
24 the civil protection staff. You said that you were a civilian body, and
25 I'm interested in that name, because my colleague said that this might
1 confuse someone who is not from Bosnia-Herzegovina. What I would like to
2 know is whether these names have anything in common with the name of the
3 commander of the municipal staff of the Territorial Defence and the chief
4 of staff of the Territorial Defence, or rather, does it have anything in
5 common with the name of the command of some military unit, or the command
6 or chief of some military unit? Are the bodies in question completely
7 different, or is something else at stake?
8 A. These bodies are completely different. The commander of the civil
9 protection, the chief of civil protection, these are names that have
10 absolutely nothing to do with military formations. This was our system of
11 command and control in the case of the units of civil protection.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konjalic.
13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further
15 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, we have no questions for this witness.
16 Thank you.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Judges have a certain number
18 of questions for you.
19 Questioned by the Court:
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall try from the beginning
21 to clarify this question of the status of your entity, called the civil
22 protection staff, in relation to the military.
23 Would you be kind enough to look at the documents which the
24 Defence has shown you, and specifically document number 1.
25 When you look at document number 1, to the left, on the top - are
1 you reading like I am - is there a registration number and a date and a
2 subject? Yes?
3 You, who did your military service in the JNA, this format of a
4 document, doesn't it have a military aspect to it? Because we could show
5 you military documents which have exactly the same format. What would be
6 your explanation?
7 A. This is the way in which offices functioned; the protocol number,
8 the date, and this was obligatory in office work, in administrative work.
9 After that the document is archived under this number so that you can find
10 it whenever you need it.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. So this is just a pure
12 coincidence that the form of this correspondence coincides with military
13 correspondence, but you're telling us that it is administrative. Is it
14 also coincidence that you had the title of commander of a staff? Is that
15 also an administrative matter, to be commander of a staff?
16 A. No, it wasn't an administrative title, it was a title, it was a
17 rank, it was a function. We had our ranks, too. If they hadn't stolen
18 our uniforms, you would see what rank the commander of the civil
19 protection had; we had insignia.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have answered a
21 question I was going to put to you. I was going to ask you whether you
22 had uniforms, and you just told us that they stole your uniforms. So you
23 had a uniform?
24 A. Yes. It was blue.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With insignia and a cap?
1 A. Yes. Yes.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And were you possibly armed.
3 A. No.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Never?
5 A. According to the Geneva Conventions, a civil protection cannot
6 bear arms.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you did have a uniform.
8 A. We had a blue uniform.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. To resolve a problem of
10 translation in English, will you please look at document number 1 and
11 document number 2, because the English translation of your institution,
12 once it is called civil defence and the second time as civil protection.
13 So I want to find the identical word in your language. There are two
14 different translations into English. Document 1 and document 2, do they
15 come from your institution?
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So I wish to draw the attention
18 of the Defence, because they are producing the documents, that this
19 prompted some questions from the Prosecution, you must have noted that the
20 English translation sometimes is civil defence and sometimes protection,
21 but the witness tells us that it is one and the same entity. So in the
22 documents, and my questions are based solely on the documents, I have
23 noted that in the documents provided to us that you also had the
24 responsibility of collecting bodies, the bodies of persons killed in the
25 area of operations.
1 And please look at document number 3. Was it your duty to take
2 care of corpses and to bury them, because there's reference to burial
3 here, too.
4 A. Yes, that is a civil protection measure. We call it sanitation.
5 And the aim is to prevent infectious diseases.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In concrete terms, how did this
7 happen? When the army certainly was able to call on you to collect the
8 bodies and to bury them, how did this happen, to the best of your
9 recollection? Who would call you? What were the logistics that you had
10 to do this? What did you do to identify the bodies? Because in your
11 report, which is to be found within the file provided by the Defence, and
12 it is document number 9, in which you refer to the burial of 70 people who
13 were killed, 50 identified and 20 not identified.
14 To make it clear to the Judges, could you tell us how this
15 happened; how were you warned, how you went out into the field, and what
16 you did there?
17 A. You see, when there are combat operations, one army forces the
18 other to move. And when the army pushes back the enemy forces, it's
19 normal to expect that there will be dead on our side, because then it is
20 territory liberated by our army. We know because we can hear the
21 shooting. You can hear the cannon and the shells, and we're all ready to
22 act; a unit is ready, with stretchers and everything else that is
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A small question stemming from
25 what you have just said. You say, "We were prepared." Were you aware of
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 the military operation taking place before it took place? You say that
2 you were preparing yourselves. If you were, it meant that you knew what
3 was going to happen.
4 A. Your Honour, you obviously have not understood me. The town of
5 Travnik is in a valley with two mountains, on one side Vlasic and on the
6 other Vilenica. And when a bullet is shot 5 kilometres away, you can hear
7 it, not to mention a shell. But that was a military secret. How could we
8 know about military operation? But our units, not just this one for
9 sanitation, but also the fire brigades and everything else, was ready to
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you would hear shells and
12 bullets. How could you deduce from that that there were dead if you were
13 5 kilometres away? Somebody must call you to tell you to collect the
14 bodies. Who? Who was that?
15 A. Yes, that was mostly somebody from the army.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He did so by telephone, or how
17 did you communicate with the army? Was it by telephone? Did they come to
18 see you?
19 A. I told you that in the field we would had commissioners. A
20 soldier would reach the closest commissioner in the area and he would tell
21 him what was happening. And then the commissioner, through his couriers,
22 would inform the small staff in his local commune, and that small staff
23 was duty-bound to inform the staff of which I was the commander.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. Now, to collect the
25 bodies, what did you do? Did you have vehicles to transport them? And
1 what did you do to identify them?
2 A. These were vehicles, not special vehicles, but the vehicles we
3 had. And we would go out into the field and collect the people killed,
4 the bodies of the people killed. The identification was done by the
5 competent body, and that is the MUP or the police.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where were the bodies taken?
7 A. That depended. Sometimes they were buried on the spot, if these
8 were local residents, and if somebody recognised them and wanted them to
9 be buried there.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you would bury them in the
11 cemetery of the commune or on the battlefield?
12 A. No. They would mostly be buried at the cemetery.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And suppose that you don't know
14 who the dead person is. What happens?
15 A. Then the police, using certain methods that I'm not familiar with
16 would write down as unidentified persons, NN, and then we would get the
17 green light, if the person had been registered under a certain number as
18 an NN, and we would get the signal from them when we could bury that
19 person once they had all the information they needed about it, about the
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you were the one to bury the
22 bodies, who placed the bodies into the ground.
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you did this, was there a
25 death certificate and a permission for burial? Did you have a death
1 certificate allowing you to bury the person, or was it done just like
2 that, without any documents?
3 A. All the persons had the necessary documents. Not a single person
4 was buried just like that, without being identified, marked. If a family
5 member was there, it would be done in the religious manner, the way they
6 wished, and where they wished the body to be buried. The body would be
7 transported to that spot.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me move on to another
9 subject, and that is the occupation of abandoned buildings into which you
10 would house refugees.
11 In the documents provided by the Defence, I have noticed that
12 sometimes they have refugee cards. So these 200.000 refugees, or 18.000
13 at a particular point in time, these refugees, did they all have ID cards
14 testifying to the fact that they were refugees? How did you do that?
15 Would you, indeed, check these cards to make sure that they were refugees?
16 A. Yes. Every refugee living and staying in Travnik municipality had
17 a refugee card with a number and the basic information about him; where he
18 came from, when he arrived, and how many members he had in his household,
19 so the members of his household were listed on the card, too. And the
20 refugees in transit would stay for a day, or two on the outside, and then
21 they would head off to Zenica or to some foreign countries. And those
22 refugees were just registered on paper but they were not issued refugee
23 cards, because they did not wish to reside in Travnik, so they were in
24 transit. We took them over, we put them up, provided food for two or
25 three days. Some people did not stay longer than two hours. They had
1 relatives in Zenica and they would go on to Zenica.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the refugees who stayed, you
3 said that they had to be accommodated, and vacant flats had to be found
4 for them. What did you do to establish that there were vacant apartments?
5 Did you have employees under you who went around the streets to make a
6 record of abandoned apartments?
7 A. The Travnik municipality had a commission that made a list of
8 abandoned apartments, and the civil defence -- civil protection had lists
9 of households from their commissioners. So we knew how many households
10 every village had, or how many houses there were in every village. We
11 even knew the owners of those houses.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. So you're telling us
13 that the municipality would prepare a list of abandoned apartments, and
14 you were given that list. To the best of your knowledge, the persons who
15 abandoned their houses, and when leaving they didn't know that refugees
16 would come to replace them, to the best of your knowledge, did the
17 municipality requisition those apartments for occupation? Because the
18 Penal Code of your country has a provision that protects private property,
19 so private property is protected and one cannot appropriate it. And to
20 put someone in there in the place of the legitimate owner, there must be a
21 document requisitioning that apartment. So was there any such thing, to
22 the best of your knowledge?
23 A. I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the term "requisition."
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was there a document coming from
25 the municipal authorities saying that a particular apartment or house was
1 being temporarily placed at the disposal of the refugee? Was there that
2 type of document? You're saying yes.
3 A. Yes, there were such documents which were issued for temporary
4 occupation of an apartment, and it stated "until the return of the
5 rightful tenant"; and that they were duty-bound to look after it and to
6 restore it to their rightful owners in the same condition.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you're still in charge of all
8 this area, to the best of your knowledge, in the years that followed, was
9 there any litigation over the occupation of these apartments? Were there
10 owners who found that something had been stolen, that their property had
11 been damaged? Are you aware of any lawsuits afterwards with regard to
12 these apartments? And did they inform you of the looting of abandoned
13 houses? People left, locked the door, and when they returned nothing was
14 left. Do you have any knowledge of that?
15 A. Let me tell you that the Travnik municipality is the first
16 municipality that received the certificate of an open city. It is the
17 first municipality to which refugees have started to return. We have an
18 acknowledgement of that. And also, we were among the first to restore
19 property, so that in Travnik municipality, there are no outstanding issues
20 regarding the restoration of tenancy rights or property.
21 There are cases when something was taken away from an apartment;
22 the furniture may be missing, all of it. But each tenant or holder of
23 tenancy rights, as he has a document from the municipality showing what
24 his belongings were, he may seek, through the court, compensation for
25 those goods. Now, whether there are any cases in court, and how many, I'm
1 really unable to say. I don't know.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll move on to another subject.
3 A minute ago you said in response to a question put to you that there were
4 humanitarian organisations present, and you mentioned a number of them.
5 But if I've understood you correctly, you had no contact of any kind with
6 these humanitarian organisations. Isn't that paradoxical, given that
7 you're a member of the civil protection? You were waiting for aid that
8 might arrive from charitable organisations, and yet you say that you had
9 no contact with them. Could you elaborate on your answer, which I find
10 very confusing.
11 A. Well, look, the Merhamet, Caritas, and Dobrotvor organisations,
12 the humanitarian organisations that belonged to three different ethnic
13 groups, the town was under blockade and those humanitarian organisations
14 were to take care of their people. But given the blockade of the town,
15 they did not have any food supplies. They couldn't help them. The UNHCR
16 and the International Red Cross had instructed us to distribute the food
17 that we received to refugees and displaced persons alone, and we were to
18 provide them with lists of these people. They controlled the goods we
19 distributed on a daily basis.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your answer presents two
21 problems. You said that there were three humanitarian organisations,
22 Merhamet, Caritas, and Dobrotvor. And according to the English
23 translation, you said that they took care of certain ethnic groups. Could
24 you tell us which ethnic groups they took care of.
25 A. Merhamet took care of the Bosniaks; Caritas is a humanitarian
1 organisation for the Croats, for Catholics; and Dobrotvor was a
2 humanitarian organisation for Serbs, for those of the Orthodox faith.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You have now
4 clarified that matter.
5 And the second problem that arises is that you said that you would
6 act in accordance with the instructions issued by the refugee committee or
7 the International Red Cross. Were you completely dependent on these two
8 international organisations? Could you explain this us and provide us
9 with some examples? Because this is the first time we have heard of this.
10 A. The UNHCR had its rules and standards, and this organisation
11 obtained the greatest amount of food for refugees and displaced persons.
12 After food was distributed in Travnik, and given the number of refugees,
13 the UNHCR stated how much food should be distributed to one person. And
14 on the basis of these criteria, we provided food for, for example, a
15 family that consisted of four members. We compiled these lists, and it
16 was our duty to return these lists to the UNHCR. It was on the basis of
17 these lists that they would come to check on a daily basis whether the
18 people concerned had received the goods as stated in the list.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as far as the Red Cross is
20 concerned, what sort of relations did you have with the Red Cross?
21 A. Well, they operated in a slightly different way. It was easier
22 for us. The International Red Cross had parcels for various individuals,
23 so it was easier for us to distribute them. We didn't have to weigh the
24 food, pour drinks into containers, et cetera. So, for example, a family
25 of five members would receive five parcels of that kind. And our
1 cooperation with the International Red Cross was very good.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think that the
3 other Judges have some questions for you.
4 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Witness, as commander of the
5 civil protection staff, how many employees did you have under you, more or
7 A. Well, perhaps about 700.
8 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Did you receive daily reports
9 on what happened in your -- or what was happening in your region, reports
10 that came from members of the civil protection?
11 A. Yes, on the whole, if it was possible to send such reports from
12 the field, I would receive them. This was the case if there was no
14 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] When the Croats left their
15 houses, you would agree with me that there was looting and that property
16 was destroyed.
17 A. Yes, absolutely.
18 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] You agree with that. Members
19 of the civil protection staff, did they provide you with reports on this
20 looting, on incidents of theft? Would you receive such reports from
21 civilian protection staff?
22 A. Yes, they forwarded reports stating that property was being looted
23 on a large scale. This involved a lot of people. A lot of people entered
24 these abandoned houses and looted the houses.
25 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] So were they actually able to
1 see the people who were involved in this looting?
2 A. Well, of course.
3 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Did they mention the names of
4 these individuals in the reports that they forwarded to you?
5 A. Well, look --
6 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Did they mention the names of
7 the people who were involved in the looting in their reports?
8 A. No, they didn't mention their names because they didn't know who
9 these people were. They didn't know them. There were people who had come
10 from all over the place.
11 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] So since you had these
12 reports, what did you do? What steps did you take?
13 A. Well, at the same time we would move people into abandoned houses,
14 and we tried to save whatever could be saved.
15 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] But did you contact the police
16 to conduct an investigation, either the civilian or the military police?
17 Didn't you inform the police?
18 A. Well, look, the police was already present in the field. Early in
19 the morning the police went out into the field, both the civilian and the
20 military police. They tried to take steps to prevent these incidents.
21 And civilians were banned from moving around that zone, so the army and
22 the police had issued such orders. Strangers were not allowed to move
23 around those abandoned areas, apart from members of the civil protection.
24 However, the police and the army cannot block or cut off an entire village
25 and prevent anyone from entering or leaving. So if a stampede of 500
1 individuals enter one village, well, you can imagine what members of the
2 civil protection or three policemen could do in such a case. It was very
3 difficult to witness such events. I saw a woman who was 60 years old and
4 she was carry 25 kilos of flour; she could barely walk. The woman was
5 basically hungry. And even if they had tried to take that flour, that bag
6 of flour from her, well, it would have been very difficult to do that, you
8 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] So you say that the police
9 were already present in the area. Did they arrest the individuals who
10 were involved in looting? Was any follow-on action taken? Were the
11 police investigations followed up?
12 A. The police had blocked all the entries. The dirt roads and the
13 asphalt roads to the villages had been blocked. There were police
14 checkpoints, and people would be checked when entering or leaving. But
15 these people would find new routes of access. You know, in Bosnia, there
16 are people who are still coming in and going out. We can't prevent this.
17 And how could the civil protection or five policemen prevent someone from
18 entering a village? It was very difficult. There were a lot of people.
19 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] If a house was in an isolated
20 area and only members of the civilian protection had seen the individuals
21 involved in looting, if the police wasn't aware, you were aware of the
22 fact because you had seen their report. If we imagine such a case, what
23 would you do? You wouldn't contact the police? If the police wasn't
24 aware of the fact and you were the only body aware of what had happened,
25 what would you do in such a case?
1 A. Well, that happened in one village, in fact. But by the time the
2 police had reached the village from the checkpoint, there was no one left
3 in the village. The people had fled through the forest, with their food.
4 They didn't find them there. So when the police returned to the
5 checkpoint, they probably returned, these looters probably returned to the
6 village. Looting occurred especially at night, when it wasn't possible to
7 see anyone. They could pass through checkpoints without being noticed, et
8 cetera. So it was during the night that this occurred most frequently.
9 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have one question that relates
11 to a question that was just put to you. It appears that you yourself
12 witnessed an incident. You mentioned a woman who was carrying a bag of
13 flour, a sack of flour. So can you confirm this: You ourselves actually
14 witnessed a looting incident, and if so, where was it, where did this take
15 place, and do you remember the date?
16 A. Well, as far as I remember, on that day I had set off to see my
17 parents, and they in fact lived there. As I was driving by, I saw this
18 very old woman who was carrying a sack of flour. I couldn't really say
19 whether it was her sack of flour, but I saw that and I just wanted to
20 mention this example because it's a very sad scene, when you see an old
21 woman carrying such a sack of flour because she just wants to survive, she
22 doesn't want to starve to death. I found that very sad.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE SWART: Good morning, witness. To pursue the discussion on
25 the activities to prevent them, to repress looting, you said this morning
1 also about resettling new persons in abandoned houses. This was a measure
2 to protect the houses. These new inhabitants could keep a watch on the
3 village, "and they would report to us and we could then inform the
4 competent authorities." That's a quote from page 40 of the transcript.
5 I think I know what you meant by using the expression "competent
6 authorities," but could you tell us for the record what you meant by that?
7 A. Well, on the whole I was referring to the police. We had the
8 phone number of the police and we would contact them and inform them that,
9 at that point in time, in such and such a place, looting was going on.
10 Civilian protection members were women; they couldn't prevent this, they
11 couldn't get involved in a dispute, and they couldn't take away the goods
12 that had been stolen. So on each occasion, the police would go into the
14 JUDGE SWART: And if, in this context, you talk about the police,
15 you're talking about the civilian police, I suppose? Or have there also
16 been cases in which you provided the information to the military police,
18 A. As far as securing buildings is concerned, as far as securing
19 property is concerned, it wasn't our duty to inform the military police.
20 They were responsible for something else. It was the civilian police's
21 duty to protect the civilian population, and to protect me as the
22 commander of the civil protection as well as my property.
23 JUDGE SWART: A few weeks ago we had a colleague from your
24 organisation, Mustafa Hokic here in the courtroom. I suppose you know
25 him. You do?
1 A. Yes.
2 JUDGE SWART: When he was aware, we got different reports from the
3 civil protection staff, among them some reports on the destruction and
4 burning of houses in the municipality of Travnik. And it struck me that
5 there was an attempt made in some of these reports to reconstruct the
6 causes of a housing having burned down. If there were indications that
7 this might have been a criminal act, would you send such a report to the
8 civilian police or to other authorities?
9 A. Absolutely. Absolutely. That was our task. We had to inform the
10 civilian police about what had happened in the field, and that was the
11 task of the commissioners. They were to monitor everything and inform
12 them what had happened, especially if anything unusual had happened.
13 JUDGE SWART: Thank you. I have two questions on the reports
14 relating to the documents.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 JUDGE SWART: I have two questions on the documents that have been
17 shown to you this morning. I'm sorry. Again, I have two questions to put
18 to you on the documents that were shown to you this morning. The first
19 one is the document number 4, and it has the number 1302. I would like to
20 ask you a question on the second linea, second sentence of that linea. Do
21 you have it before you?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 JUDGE SWART: "Apart from a property inventory record, none of the
24 people housed were issued a temporary housing decision, because this staff
25 is not competent to issue such a decision." What you told us this morning
1 seemed to imply that there were competent to take decisions on housing
2 people in abandoned houses. This might contradict what you said, so I'm
3 just asking for some clarification, how I should understand this phrase.
4 Could you give me an answer?
5 A. The civil protection, through its commissioners and lower level
6 staffs, would move certain persons into a certain house, make a report
7 about the owner of the house, and make an inventory list, as well as the
8 auxiliary buildings, and all the other information would be taken from the
9 people moving in. And their duty was to make a report about this move,
10 and all these things had to be inserted.
11 The report had to be in three copies; one was given to the person
12 who was moved into the house to live there, one went to the civil
13 protection staff, and a third was given to the government so that the
14 competent authority for housing should issue a decision on the temporary
15 occupation of that apartment, because that was the only body that had the
16 authority to issue such certificates.
17 JUDGE SWART: Thank you. My next question is on the document that
18 has the number 1566, the third page. There is a Roman IV on the third
19 page on the "Evacuation and Sheltering of Endangered and Suffering
20 Population," and in the second linea, you mention almost 28.000
21 individuals being sheltered in the area of Travnik; some 2.000 were
22 accommodated in collective centres and some 25.000 in private homes.
23 Now, you talked before about private homes, abandoned private
24 homes being used to find a place for displaced persons. Could you give an
25 estimate of how many of these 25 or so private homes were abandoned houses
1 just to give us an idea of the quantity of the phenomena?
2 A. A certain number of refugees were put up in private homes, but a
3 certain number of them found accommodation with relatives; another group
4 had the resources to rent places; then some stayed with friends. So the
5 figure regarding collective centres were living in conditions that were
6 really not deemed for man. The rest of the refugees moved into these
7 abandoned homes.
8 JUDGE SWART: So it's hard to say; is that your answer?
9 A. It is very hard, because, you know, these are living beings and
10 the numbers change. And it is very difficult to have such figures.
11 People were coming and going all the time.
12 JUDGE SWART: A related question I had, but perhaps that also is
13 impossible to answer, is how many houses, abandoned houses in the area
14 where the fighting was in June 1993, Guca Gora, et cetera, all these
15 places in the community of Travnik, how many houses, abandoned houses,
16 would be used to resettle people in that period? Can you give us an
17 estimate? Was it systematic? Was it sporadic? Tell me anything you know
18 about it.
19 A. It was many years ago. I knew the figures by heart if you were to
20 ask me in the middle of the night, but I find it very awkward to give you
21 a figure now in court. But anyway, every house that had the minimum
22 conditions for living, if it just had a roof - only those without roofs or
23 windows were not moved into - the rest were. And also the houses that
24 were far from the city, because refugees didn't wish to travel a lot, they
25 wanted to be close to town.
1 JUDGE SWART: So as a rule, they were used to resettle people.
2 I'm aware of those exceptions. Is that a fair conclusion?
3 A. Yes, that's right.
4 JUDGE SWART: My last question is about the humanitarian
5 organisations. You mentioned three different organisations, one Bosnian,
6 one Croat, and one Serb. The Merhamet organisation, was that a local
7 organisation or a foreign organisation, or a mixture of both? That is a
8 question that has been put to you but we haven't yet heard an answer on
10 A. Merhamet was founded in Sarajevo, and that is where its
11 headquarters are, in the captain of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And it has its
12 branch offices, one of which is in Travnik. I think they're called
13 municipal boards. The composition of Merhamet, that is, the composition
14 of the managers, are exclusively Bosniaks. But the beneficiaries are not
15 only Bosniaks. Canteens that they organised were used by Bosniaks and
16 Croats and Serbs and Romanies and Albanians and the rest.
17 JUDGE SWART: The word "Merhamet," is that a Bosnian word or an
18 Arabic word? And what does it mean, by the way?
19 A. I don't know Arabic, but Merhamet means aid, in my view, aid to
20 those in need. Because when we say of somebody that he is Merhametli, it
21 means that he's a person who wants to be helpful, kind.
22 JUDGE SWART: Thank you very much.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Still on this issue of the
24 Merhamet. If I understand you correctly, the term "Merhamet" is a Bosniak
25 term; in your language, it means charitable or kind?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. My mother, when I was 7 years old, said to me, Son, you must be
2 Merhametli, and my understanding of it was that I should be a good man,
3 help others, and that is why I take special satisfaction that in this war
4 I was Merhametli, I helped people.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the Merhamet organisation
6 that had a branch office in Travnik, what was its address? Do you know
7 the address of the organisation?
8 A. It was close by, in the center of town. It had its offices in two
9 or three places, because they were probably doing something, cooking and
10 the like. But I can tell you that as I'm now working in Travnik
11 municipality, I want 5 marks to be deducted from my salary every month as
12 membership fees for Merhamet, because there are still people in Travnik
13 who are short of food. So I am glad to renounce 5 marks a month to feed
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the time, my understanding
16 was that you had no contact with them. Are you confirming that you had no
17 contact with them?
18 A. Yes, I can confirm that I didn't have any contact with them,
19 because there was no need. I was doing something quite different. I had
20 a great deal of things to do, and I couldn't take care of the residents as
21 well. That would be too much.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the light of what you just
23 said, will you look at document number 9, please, page 4.10. It's a
24 document that you signed. And paragraph 10, I will translate into French
25 what it says in English:
1 "Organising humanitarian and other actions in the municipality."
2 And I'm still translating.
3 "The civil protection municipal staff initiated and launched a
4 series of humanitarian actions."
5 And I continue on page 5, again, from your pen you say:
6 "In cooperation with the Basbunar --"
7 What is that, please?
8 A. It is the public utility enterprise, responsible for cleaning the
9 town and providing the population with water.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. Under chapter 11, headed
11 "Cooperation," could you read what you wrote about cooperation. Read it
12 out in your own language, this paragraph, the first paragraph under the
13 heading "Cooperation."
14 A. "In order to carry out planned activities and tasks, the civil
15 protection municipal staff of Travnik cooperated closely with
16 international humanitarian organisations, local organisations, competent
17 state organs, and military unit commands."
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Isn't there a contradiction
19 there between the question I put to you a moment ago when you said, "I
20 never saw any of the Merhamet people; we had no communication."? And here
21 you say that you cooperated fully with all the humanitarian organisations.
22 How can you explain that contradiction between what is written here and
23 what you just told us? For anyone reading, and that is why I asked you to
24 read it, gets the impression that, according to this paragraph, you were
25 fully cooperating with international organisations, the Red Cross, et
1 cetera, but also with local humanitarian organisations, so certainly the
2 three, Caritas, Dobrotvor and Merhamet. Is there a contradiction, or is
3 this a printing error? Because I'm trying to understand what you're
4 saying from the point of view of credibility, but I see a contradiction
6 A. Your Honour, Mr. President, I am sorry that you appear to have a
7 poor translation. It says "organisations in the municipality," not
8 "humanitarian." It may be a mistranslation. There are many
9 organisations; there are work organisations and so on. It doesn't say
10 "humanitarian organisations" here.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you read once again in
12 your own language the first paragraph.
13 A. Yes.
14 "In order to carry out planned activities and tasks, the civil
15 protection municipal staff of Travnik cooperated closely with
16 international and local humanitarian organisations, competent state
17 organs, and military unit commands."
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So in your own language, there's
19 obvious mention of humanitarian organisations, both international and
20 local. The purpose of my question was to see whether there were links
21 between civilian protection in Travnik and the Merhamet humanitarian
22 organisation, and you said no, because you did not meet with them. Is
23 that what you're still confirming? Is that what you're saying?
24 A. I can't deny that. I can't say that I never met and saw these
25 people from all these organisations. And when speaking about humanitarian
1 organisations, I wish to speak about all three and not just Merhamet.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So now you're telling us that
3 you did meet with them. So if you met with them, what was the name of the
4 person in charge of Merhamet? It must have been somebody of some
6 A. I do know. His name was Mustafa Indjic. I do know that. And for
7 Caritas, it was Don Pavo, and Dobrotvor, I think his name was Djoko, or
8 something like that. I'm not sure.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] These humanitarian organisations
10 which, as you told us, provided food and certain consumer goods, to the
11 best of your knowledge, where did their finances come from? Have you any
12 idea of who financed them, how they were financed?
13 A. Believe me, I don't know who financed them at the time. I said a
14 moment ago that, just now, I am a member of Merhamet and I am paying a
15 membership fee. But I know many friends of mine who are also members of
16 Caritas and Dobrotvor, et cetera. These are humanitarian organisations
17 whose task is to assist. I never inquired into the business policies of
18 Merhamet or any of the others.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a final question which
20 comes to mind just now, following what you've just said. The food they
21 gave, did they buy it on the spot or was it coming from the outside? The
22 food, was it being brought in from outside or was it purchased on the
23 spot, from local peasants? To the best of your knowledge, where did the
24 food come from?
25 A. I think there may have been both, but I'm not sure. I do know
1 that in my village, the village I was born in, they did purchase a certain
2 amount of potatoes from the peasants. Now, whether there was some from
3 outside, I'm not sure. Possibly.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when they were buying these
5 goods, was it paid in German marks, in local currency, in American
6 dollars? Do you know how they paid for this?
7 A. I think they issued coupons. We had coupons. We didn't have a
8 currency at first, we just had coupons.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they paid for what they
10 purchased with coupons.
11 A. That was the means of payment, not just for Merhamet. I would buy
12 cigarettes with coupons too.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is 12.30. We're going to
14 have our technical break now, and we will resume at about five to 1.00. I
15 will give the floor to the Prosecution for any questions stemming from the
16 Judges' questions, and of course I will give the floor to the Defence as
18 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you may take the
22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Further cross-examination by Mr. Mundis:
24 Q. I have a few questions that arose out of the Judges questions to
25 you. The first one concerns the notion of, I believe as you put it,
1 sanitising the battlefield, that is, collecting the bodies following any
2 combat or any other type of action. I would like to ask you, sir, if at
3 any point around the 9th of June, 1993, the Travnik municipal civil
4 protection staff was involved in any way in collecting bodies from the
5 area around Milena and Bikosi.
6 A. Well, I can't remember such an event. If the terrain was being
7 cleaned up, then my men were probably involved in the operation. There
8 was no one else to do it.
9 Q. Well, let me ask you, then, in light of that answer, to the best
10 of your recollection, during the period, say, June 1993, were units of the
11 ABiH ever involved in clearing up the battlefield or clearing up an area
12 where combat or fighting had taken place?
13 A. It was the civilian protection alone that cleared up the terrain
14 and removed the dead bodies and the dead animals. Our purpose was to
15 ensure that no infectious diseases spread. Our purpose was to prevent
16 epidemics of any kind.
17 Q. Also, in response to a question from one of the Judges, you told
18 us that Travnik was the first, I think you used the term, "free city," and
19 the first place where refugees started to return -- yes, people who left
20 had began to return. Were you referring, sir, to Croats, Bosnian Croats?
21 A. Yes. Not just to Croats, to Serbs, too.
22 Q. To your recollection, sir, when did those Croats and Serbs begin
23 returning to Travnik, municipality, I mean?
24 A. I think that they started returning immediately after the
25 Washington agreement had been signed, after the cessation of hostilities,
1 in other words. And we have, from the international community, a
2 certificate on being an open town. It's recognition for -- a form of
3 recognition for everything we did to ensure that people could return to
4 their homes.
5 Q. Now, sir, if you can, can you give us an approximate number of
6 Croats and Serbs who returned to Travnik municipality?
7 A. I couldn't provide you with any numbers right now, but in terms of
8 percentages, about 70 per cent of Croats, or perhaps even 80 per cent of
9 Croats, returned. Maybe about 50 per cent of the Serbs returned.
10 Everyone could return, but unfortunately some people went to Scandinavia,
11 to parts of the world across the ocean, and they probably won't return.
12 On the whole it was the elderly and those who had no where else to go who
14 Q. Finally, sir, you responded, again to a question from one of the
15 Judges, that some of the refugees, and now, sir, I'm talking about Bosniak
16 refugees who came from other parts of Bosnia into Travnik municipality,
17 you said that some of those refugees had the resources to rent houses. Do
18 you recall saying that?
19 A. That's what I said, yes.
20 Q. Can you be a little more specific in terms of who those people
21 rented the houses from?
22 A. Well, there were various cases. People from Krajina who had been
23 wealthy, they managed to bring some money from them. But since the
24 accommodation provided in collective centres wasn't very nice, they
25 decided to use the money to rent a flat or a house. In some cases, they
1 would rent accommodation from Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks. It depended on
2 who was letting such a flat. On the whole it was Bosniaks who let flats.
3 In some cases, a Bosniak would send his family out of the town and remain
4 alone. And if that Bosniak had a big flat, he might decide to let two
6 Q. Do you recall any instances where the Bosniak refugees were
7 renting flats or renting property from the Croats who left?
8 A. Of course there were such cases, many such cases. They would rent
9 houses, too. Before the Croats left, there were quite a few Bosniaks who
10 lived in Croatian houses. And when the Croats left, they remained, the
11 Bosniaks remained in those houses. My commissioners in the field, when
12 they came to see who had moved in, they saw that these people had valid
13 papers that had been given to them by the owners of the houses, papers
14 stating that they had the right to live there.
15 Q. Sir, were you aware of cases where the Croats who had abandoned
16 their property were renting -- basically what I'm saying is that the
17 Croats who left, were those houses then put into the rental market?
18 A. They weren't rented, they were moved into. Who would have rented
19 them? They weren't let. Who would have let them? In certain cases, if
20 there were two brothers and one left and the other remained, in such a
21 case, the brother who had remained would let the house belonging to the
22 brother who had left. There were such cases.
23 Q. Thank you, sir.
24 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Defence counsel.
2 Further re-examination by Ms. Residovic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] I'd like to go back to some of the questions that
4 the Chamber put to you. You were asked about your cooperation with
5 international humanitarian organisations. In order to be quite clear,
6 could you tell me, who was the civil protection was responsible for as far
7 as providing them with accommodation and food?
8 A. They were responsible for refugees and displaced persons.
9 Q. Since you have already spoken about the difficult situation that
10 the local population was in, and this can be seen in some of your
11 documents, too, tell me who the local humanitarian organisations cared for
12 on the whole. You mentioned three organisations, Merhamet, Caritas, and
14 A. Yes. They took care of the local population.
15 Q. Given the different categories of people that you and the local
16 humanitarian organisations took care of, was that the reason for which
17 your contact with the local humanitarian organisations were not as
18 frequent as the contact you had with international humanitarian
20 A. Yes, that's the main reason.
21 Q. In addition to these three local humanitarian organisations that
22 you have mentioned, could you tell me whether there was a local municipal
23 committee of the Red Cross in Travnik?
24 A. Yes, there was a local municipal Red Cross committee.
25 Q. Was there a Jewish organisation, a Jewish humanitarian
1 organisation, the name of which was La Benavolencija?
2 A. I'm not sure. I couldn't answer that.
3 Q. Tell me, although you have already spoken about this in response
4 to a question put to you by the Chamber, in the case of Merhamet, Caritas,
5 Dobrotvor, and the Red Cross, in the case of these local organisations,
6 who were the people who were their members? Were the staff of these
7 operations local inhabitants or were they foreigners, perhaps?
8 A. As far as I know, in all three humanitarian organisations, the
9 leadership consisted of people from Travnik alone. They weren't from the
10 wide area; they came from the town of Travnik itself.
11 Q. The Chamber was interested in the meaning of the word "Merhamet."
12 Could you tell us whether Merhamet is originally a Turkish word, or is it
13 a word the origins of which are different?
14 A. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I would say that Merhamet would sooner
15 be a Turkish word rather than an Arab word.
16 Q. You said you didn't know the exact meaning of this word, but you
17 said that you knew the meaning such as it was used -- the meaning of the
18 word such as it was used by your mother. Tell me, is Caritas a local word
19 or is it derived from some other foreign language?
20 A. Well, I would say that Caritas is derived from the Latin language,
21 although I don't speak Latin, I don't know Latin.
22 Q. Is the word "Caritas" the word that our people usually use, and do
23 the people know what the meaning of this word is?
24 A. Well, I know what the meaning of the word is, but I don't believe
25 that most of the citizens know what Caritas means, although they have
1 heard this word. They know that Caritas is a voluntary humanitarian
2 organisation, but as to the actual meaning of the word "Caritas," to be
3 quite frank, I myself am not quite sure of this.
4 Q. In order to help the Trial Chamber, could you tell us whether
5 Dobrotvor and Crveni Krst, the Red Cross, are local Slav words, and
6 everyone knows the meaning of these words?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Could you help the Trial Chamber with regard to certain linguistic
9 difficulties. Given the historical development of our language, would you
10 say that there are many foreign words, words that come from the Turkish
11 language, from the German language, from Romance languages, and this
12 depended on the period during which we were occupied by Turks -- the
13 Turks, the Austrians, the Italians, et cetera. In other words, that come
14 from these languages which have become local words, and we all know what
15 the meaning of these words are although we can't translate them.
16 A. Yes. And there are certain words of that kind that we use every
17 day, on a daily basis, in spite of the fact that we might not know the
19 Q. Could you help us to understand something else. I asked you
20 whether in the Serbian language there are many words that come from the
21 Arab -- the Arab language and the Turkish language. Would you say that
22 Serbs also use such foreign words?
23 A. Well, I think that the Serbs use just as many foreign words of
24 that kind as the Bosniaks.
25 Q. So when we speak about organisations such as Merhamet and Caritas,
1 we believe that these are local words, the meaning of which is familiar to
2 us, and we don't find it strange to see that certain organisations have
3 such names.
4 A. Yes, exactly, and especially since these organisations are
5 humanitarian organisations, so the translation of these terms would have
6 something to do with humanitarian affairs.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's now show the witness DH29,
9 Defence Exhibit DH29.
10 Q. Mr. Konjalic, we have a newspaper here, and this is a decree law
11 on defence that you have referred to, and this law regulates the
12 responsibilities of the civilian protection as well. Is this the decree
13 law that you referred to?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. The Chamber asked you about the structure of those units and about
16 the names used, so could we have a look at Article 50 in this decree law.
17 And could you read out paragraph 2 in this article.
18 Have you found Article 50?
19 A. Article 50, paragraph 2:
20 "In the units of the civilian protection staff, there should be no
21 individuals serving in the armed forces; workers of the MUP, and
22 policemen; pregnant women and single parents who have children who are
23 under two years of age, or two children over ten; members of KP Doms; and
24 people who are not fit to serve in civilian protection."
25 Q. On the basis of this decree law, can we see that members of the
1 civilian protection staff or civilian protection units couldn't be members
2 of the armed forces?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. Mr. Konjalic, is it quite clear from what you have read out that
5 you, in fact, had nothing to do with the organisation of military defence?
6 A. Absolutely.
7 Q. Have a look at page 10 in this decree law, and under number 4.
8 Could you read out the titles that you have there. There's Roman number
9 IV, and then we have the numbers 1 and 2. The article concerned is
10 Article 62.
11 A. Article 62.
12 Q. But could you read the title above the article, the heading? What
13 does this regulate?
14 A. "The civilian activity and the organisation of military defence,
15 joint provisions."
16 Q. And above Article 64?
17 A. "The armed forces."
18 Q. In this part, is there a reference made at any point to the
19 civilian protection?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Could you now have a look at the title under number 5.
22 A. Number 5?
23 Q. It's above Article 70.
24 A. "The civilian activity and the organisation of the civilian
1 Q. Could you tell me whether this is part of the defence within the
2 civilian sector? And you said that civilian protection was part of this,
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Could you read out Article 71.
6 A. "Within the framework of civilian defence, the following elements
7 should be organised and developed: Civilian protection as a system of
8 protection and a system for saving; monitoring service and an intelligence
9 service; encryptographic measures, apart from the needs of commanding
10 armed forces; planning training apart from members of the armed forces;
11 and protection of companies and other legal entities."
12 Q. What is the title after that?
13 A. The title that follows is "Civilian Protection."
14 Q. And does the entire text that follows explain all the tasks and
15 the measures and the way in which the civilian protection operated, the
16 civilian protection force that you were in in 1992 and 1993?
17 A. Yes, exactly. This is a section that refers to the civilian
18 protection of which I was a commander.
19 Q. In Article 71, we also have the service of observation and
20 information. Tell me, is that also a component part of civil defence and
21 a component part of the civilian organs of authority in Bosnia-Herzegovina
22 and Travnik?
23 A. Yes, it is a component part of civil defence.
24 Q. This service of observation and information, did it have
25 round-the-clock duty, and did it collect information about everything that
1 might be of significance for the civil defence as a whole?
2 A. Yes. They had duty round the clock throughout the duration of the
3 aggression, from the beginning of the war until the end of the war. And
4 even today, this service of observation and information is still active,
5 because of various reports of fires and the like.
6 Q. In view of your numerous tasks that Their Honours have asked you
7 about regarding the clearing up of the terrain, and your reaction when you
8 learnt of looting and burning of buildings, this service for observation
9 and information, was it the first competent body which should have
10 informed you that something was happening in a certain area that the civil
11 protection had to react to?
12 A. They did so usually with the help of sirens, and we knew exactly
13 when there was the beginning of danger from the air, the end of such
14 danger, or any other disaster, such as a fire. So we could tell which it
15 was on the basis of the different sirens.
16 Q. Within the civilian defence, did you cooperate directly with this
17 observation and information service?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And within the framework of that, did you act in accordance with
20 your resources and assignments?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And my last question is linked to the question put to you by
23 Her Honour, when you informed the civilian police that there was looting
24 of property, as a citizen of Travnik, Do you know that the perpetrators
25 of crimes who were discovered, whose identity was established, were they
1 processed, prosecuted, and sentenced?
2 A. As far as I know, there are quite a number of them that have been
3 processed. Some of them were reported by the civil protection and some
4 other bodies. Now, what the outcome of those trials was, whether they
5 were sentenced or not, I don't know. Some of them may be ongoing. But if
6 it was possible, without any doubt, to establish somebody's identity and
7 the crime he committed, reports were filed against him.
8 Q. Thank you, witness.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team?
11 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, we have no questions arising from the
12 questions Your Honours posed. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, your hearing has been
14 completed. On behalf of the Chamber, I wish to thank you for coming to
15 The Hague to testify. You have answered all the questions put to you both
16 by the Defence and the Prosecution, and the Judges. We wish you a safe
17 journey home, and we hope you will continue your activities in the
18 civilian protection with success.
19 Could the usher be kind enough to accompany you out of the
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has four documents
23 to tender, I think.
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President. We
25 would like to tender into exhibit 1537, 1540, 1541, and 1566, as these are
1 documents which the witness himself compiled or signed, and documents he
2 was aware of in 1993.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution.
4 MR. MUNDIS: No objection, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we have four
6 numbers, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] They are admitted under the
8 following numbers: DH1537, English version 1537/E; DH1540, the English
9 version DH1540/E; DH1541, English version 1541/E; and finally, DH1566, and
10 the English version 1566/E. Thank you, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We take note of
12 those exhibit numbers.
13 In the few minutes remaining, I would like to make a correction
14 linked to a translation problem. In the oral ruling that we rendered on
15 the question of new documents, I wish to draw the attention of the parties
16 to the fact that the French version, on page 12524, lines 5 to 9, and the
17 English version of this paragraph is page 15524, lines 22, 23, 24, and 25.
18 In the English version there is an error in relation to the French
19 version. In French, the following was stated, and I read:
20 "Stemming from this principle, the Prosecution cannot produce
21 within the framework of its cross-examination of a Defence witness new
22 exhibits which have not already been admitted with a view to strengthening
23 the Prosecution case, or to introduce new elements regarding the criminal
24 responsibility of the accused."
25 So this paragraph clearly indicates that the Prosecution cannot
1 produce new documents during the cross-examination of a Defence witness.
2 And in the English version, beginning with line 22, in English it
4 [In English] "As a result of this principle the Prosecution can
5 only present in the course of its cross-examination of a witness ..."
6 [Interpretation] So that in the translation, it says "can" rather
7 than "cannot," so obviously "cannot" should have been said. So I wish to
8 draw the attention of the Prosecution to this point so that they take note
9 of this correction.
10 From time to time there are errors. We discover them
11 subsequently, and when we discover them, we let you know. But you, too,
12 may discover some. So I wanted to tell you this so that there should be
13 no ambiguity.
14 As you know, we have a witness for tomorrow afternoon, and next
15 week we will be continuing with our sittings, as indicated yesterday and
16 this morning.
17 Are there any other points to be raised? If not -- Mr. Dixon is
18 telling me "no" with his head. I see that there are no other matters to
19 address. I thank you. And please be back here tomorrow for the sitting
20 that will begin at 2.15.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.30 p.m.
22 To be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of
23 December, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.