Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12747

1 Thursday, 2 December 2004

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can you call the

6 case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number IT-01-47-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 Could we have the Appearances for the Prosecution.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning,

12 Your Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom on this

13 the second day of the first -- the first day of the second year of this

14 trial. The Prosecution is represented by Stefan Waespi, Daryl Mundis, and

15 Andres Vatter, our case manager.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 And could we have the Appearances for Defence counsel.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. On

19 behalf of Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, counsel, Stefane Bourgon,

20 co-counsel and Muriel Cauvin.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And could we have

22 the appearances for the other Defence team.

23 MR. DIXON: Good morning, Your Honour. On behalf of Kubura, it's

24 Mr. Rod Dixon with Nermin Mulalic.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Trial Chamber

Page 12748

1 would like to greet everyone present, members of the Prosecution, the

2 Defence, the accused, and in particular our new usher who is assisting our

3 Chamber for the first time. I'd also like to greet the court reporter and

4 the interpreters, who are doing a good job.

5 I have something I'd like to say about next week. A few days ago

6 I said that because of the Plenary session that will be held on the 8th of

7 December, on Wednesday, we will have to have a hearing in the afternoon on

8 Thursday. That in fact, it would be possible to have a hearing in

9 courtroom number II, in the morning on Thursday. So we can have a hearing

10 on Thursday morning. The registrar will check this, but this is something

11 I found out about yesterday afternoon.

12 If there are no other issues to be raised, we could call the

13 witness into the courtroom. But before we do so, let's go into private

14 session first.

15 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] We are in private session,

16 Mr. President.

17 [Private session]

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17 [Open session]

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Could the usher call

19 the witness into the courtroom now.

20 [The witness entered court]

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I'd first like

22 to make sure that you can hear what I am saying, that you understand what

23 I'm saying. You must be receiving the interpretation, unless you know

24 French. If you can hear me and understand me, please say so.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand you.

Page 12751

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In a few minutes you will take

2 the solemn declaration, but before you do so, I would be grateful if you

3 could tell me your first and last names, your date and place of birth.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Samin Konjalic. I was

5 born in Bosnia, in Travnik, on the 3rd of October, 1958.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Do you currently hold a position

7 of any kind, and if so, what position do you hold?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work in Travnik municipality for

9 the administrative bodies.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in what capacity do you work

11 with them? Are you involved in administration? What are your exact

12 duties in Travnik municipality?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I work as an official, or rather, as

14 a professional advisor for the chief of the municipality, for the head of

15 the municipality.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. In 1992 and 1993,

17 did you hold a position of any kind, and if so, what position did you

18 hold?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I was a member of the civilian

20 protection.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In which municipality?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Travnik municipality.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could you please

24 read out the solemn declaration.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

Page 12752

1 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

2 WITNESS: SAMIN KONJALIC

3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.

5 In a few minutes' time I will give the floor to Defence counsel

6 who will examine you. But I would first like to provide you with some

7 information about the procedure that will be followed here.

8 You will first have to answer questions put to you by Defence

9 counsel. You have certainly met them already. They are to your left.

10 Usually their examination should take between an hour and an hour and a

11 half. After they have completed their examination-in-chief - that's what

12 we call it - you will have to answer questions put to you by the

13 Prosecution. They are to your right. And they will conduct what we call

14 their cross-examination.

15 The questions put to you by the Prosecution have two objectives;

16 firstly, to obtain clarifications to answers that you have provided to the

17 Defence, and secondly to verify your credibility as a witness. These are

18 the objectives of the cross-examination. The Prosecution is allocated the

19 same amount of time as the Defence.

20 After this stage has been completed, Defence counsel may

21 re-examine you. The questions they put to you will be directly related to

22 the questions put to you in the course of the cross-examination.

23 When the parties examine you, you may be shown documents. You

24 will then have a look at the documents and answer the questions.

25 The three Judges sitting before you may also ask you questions at

Page 12753

1 any point in time, but as a rule, the Judges prefer to wait for the

2 parties to finish their examination and cross-examination before asking

3 questions, because often the questions the Judges have might be questions

4 that the parties will put to you. So we prefer to wait for the end. If

5 we ask you questions, it may be to clarify some of your answers, or

6 because we believe that there are certain gaps in your testimony. The

7 Judges may also show you documents; we have a series of documents that are

8 in the hands of the registrar.

9 Once the Judges have asked their questions, and you have answered

10 them, both parties may ask you additional questions. So you've probably

11 understood that numerous questions will be put to you. If you feel that a

12 question is complicated, ask the person putting it to you to rephrase it,

13 because apart from the fact that we know you're a member of the civilian

14 protection, the Judges know nothing about you. We don't have any written

15 documents that concern you, and this is why your oral answers are so

16 important. You should understand that your answers are very important for

17 the Judges. Try to answer the questions as precisely as possible. This

18 is what we expect of you.

19 You are a witness, and a witness has certain rights and certain

20 obligations. As far as your obligations are concerned, you have taken the

21 solemn declaration. It is, therefore, your duty to speak the truth.

22 However, if a witness gives false testimony, I should inform you of the

23 fact that the witness could be prosecuted for contempt of court, and could

24 be punished and sentenced to a term in prison.

25 A witness has rights when questions are put to him. If you

Page 12754

1 believe that your answer to a question might provide information that

2 could be used to prosecute you at a subsequent date, in such a case, you

3 may refuse to answer the question. This is the witness's right. But the

4 Rules limit this right in that the Chamber may compel the witness to

5 answer the question. But if that occurs, the Trial Chamber grants the

6 witness a form of immunity. This is a provision contained in our Rules,

7 and it is a provision that exists to enable us to determine the truth.

8 If you encounter any difficulties in the course of the hearing, do

9 inform us of the fact. We are here to deal with any difficulties that may

10 arise. I wanted to provide you with this information, as this is what we

11 do whenever a witness appears before the Chamber.

12 I will now give the floor to the Defence, who will provide you

13 with additional information.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

15 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Konjalic. As the President of

17 the Trial Chamber has just said, I would also like to ask you to pay

18 attention to one further matter; namely, the two of us speak the same

19 language, and you would be able to answer my questions the moment I put it

20 to you. However, both my questions and your answers need to be

21 interpreted so that Your Honours and our colleagues in the courtroom could

22 follow. Therefore, when I put my question to you, please wait a moment to

23 give a chance to the interpreters to interpret fully, and only then answer

24 it. Do you understand?

25 A. Yes, I do.

Page 12755

1 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Konjalic, where are you living now?

2 A. I'm living in Bosnia, in a small town called Travnik.

3 Q. And where did you live at the beginning of the war in

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in April 1992?

5 A. I was living in the same country and in the same town, the town of

6 Travnik.

7 Q. You told us what you are doing now. Tell us, what is your

8 occupation and training, and where you acquired it?

9 A. By profession, I have a degree in politicology, and I graduated

10 from the university in Sarajevo in 1972.

11 Q. Did you do your military service before the war, and if so, did

12 you have a rank?

13 A. Yes, I did my military service in the former JNA, but I don't have

14 a rank from that army.

15 Q. What were your activities or duties until the beginning of the

16 war, or just before the war broke out?

17 A. Up until the beginning of the war, that is, up until 1990, I was

18 working as a teacher of sociology in the secondary school centre. Before

19 the war broke out, in fact, I transferred to the administration of the

20 Travnik municipality, more specifically the civil defence, and that was

21 the post I held when the war broke out. And throughout the duration of

22 the war, I was in the civil defence.

23 Q. Mr. Konjalic, could you tell us in greater detail what your duties

24 were within the framework of the civil defence or the civil defence staff?

25 A. I was a member of the staff at the beginning, and later I became

Page 12756

1 chief of staff, and as of 1993, I was commander of the civil defence

2 staff. I must also point out that after that I was also appointed

3 commander of the district staff for Central Bosnia.

4 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, which law governs the position and

5 regulates the position of the civil defence in the country's defence.

6 A. The law on defence.

7 Q. Can you recall, or do you know which forms of defence are

8 stipulated by the law on defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

9 A. There's military defence and civil defence, according to the law

10 on defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 Q. Which part of defence was provided by the civil defence in which

12 you held the positions you have just told us about?

13 A. Civil defence was part of the civil defence system.

14 Q. And in 1992 and 1993, which was the superior body above the civil

15 defence?

16 A. The superior body was the War Presidency, or rather, the

17 government of the municipality.

18 Q. Could you tell us briefly, what were the main tasks of the civil

19 defence in those days?

20 A. Not just then but then and after, the main duty of the civil

21 defence is to protect the population and their property from any kind of

22 man-made or natural disasters.

23 Q. In order to perform those duties, did the civil defence have

24 certain resources so as to be able to protect and save people and their

25 material belongings?

Page 12757

1 A. Yes, the civil defence applies the civil defence measures. There

2 are several measures; if you wish, I can list them. And for each of those

3 measures, there is a staff member in charge of that particular measure.

4 So there are measures of rescuing, then finding shelter, measures against

5 fires. There are 17 different measures that the civil defence resorts to.

6 Q. You told us which activities you were engaged in in the Travnik

7 civil defence. Tell us, until when were you working in the civil defence,

8 be it in the municipal or the district civil defence?

9 A. Until the end of 1995.

10 Q. So, throughout the war, you were working in the civil defence.

11 Then you can certainly tell us whether the civil defence was a military or

12 a civil entity.

13 A. The civil defence was a civilian entity.

14 Q. To the best of your knowledge, was the civil defence at any point

15 in time subordinated to the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And did, perhaps, units of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, were

18 they, perhaps, subordinated to civil defence staffs at any point in time?

19 A. No.

20 Q. In answer to my previous question, you said that you were

21 subordinated to the War Presidency and the government. Tell me, which

22 were the bodies that gave you assignments, instructions, and tasks which

23 it was your duty to implement?

24 A. Our instructions came from the War Presidency, from the

25 government, and, to some extent, from the operations group.

Page 12758

1 Q. If you were assigned tasks by units of the army of Bosnia and

2 Herzegovina, were these tasks that you were obliged to carry out or were

3 they just suggestions for you as a civilian body?

4 A. A military body could not issue any orders to us; therefore, all

5 their orders were more like suggestions as to what we should do at a given

6 moment.

7 Q. Generally speaking, in those days in 1993, what kind of

8 relationship were you seeking to establish with the army of Bosnia and

9 Herzegovina in your area?

10 A. We were partners. We assisted one another.

11 Q. Tell me, please, on the basis of your knowledge and experience

12 from those days, did the civil defence encounter problems in carrying out

13 its duties in Travnik municipality, and if so, which?

14 A. Yes, it did. I have to say that from the very beginning, as soon

15 as the aggression against my state started, the civil defence premises

16 were looted, though they were very well equipped previously. So they were

17 left without the basic materiel and equipment. Because our warehouse was

18 within the military facilities, there was one building where we kept our

19 equipment. And when the aggression took place, there was a large influx

20 of refugees to our town so that we were not ready for it, and none of the

21 plans that we had made provision for any such thing. So we had problems

22 providing food for the refugees, accommodating them, a shortage of living

23 space, et cetera.

24 Q. You mentioned some of the civil defence measures that you were

25 able to undertake to protect and save people and property. Tell us,

Page 12759

1 within the framework of the civil defence staff, were there people who

2 were professionals? And to what extent were professionals important for

3 the civil defence?

4 A. All members of the staff were professional people. Let me start

5 with me as the commander. I completed my training and had all the

6 necessary certificates even before the war, when I attended training in

7 Belgrade, or rather, Zemun, for civil defence staff members. And most of

8 my staff also had completed such training. These are mainly people

9 belonging to the profession, so that the measure of protection against

10 infectious diseases was led by an epidemiologist, a doctor, who

11 specialised in this area. The measure for rescuing people from the rubble

12 was headed by a graduate architect, and so on.

13 Q. Mr. Konjalic, in those days, who carried out civil defence tasks

14 in the field, in villages, in local communes?

15 A. There were local commune staffs that we trained, and also

16 commissioners of the civil defence.

17 Q. Did the civil defence staff train the commissioners and local

18 commune civil defence staffs?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Who were those commissioners in the field, and did they enjoy a

21 certain degree of respect among the population?

22 A. Only a citizen of reputation and high ethics could become a

23 commissioner for the civil defence, a person enjoying respect in his

24 environment.

25 Q. Tell me, Mr. Konjalic, when you received reports from your

Page 12760

1 commissioners or the commissions that you formed locally, tell us to what

2 extent you felt that such reports reliable and accurate.

3 A. I never doubted the truthfulness of those reports, and I consider

4 them absolutely correct.

5 Q. In your area there was a combat operation between the army and the

6 HVO in June. Tell me, after those operations, did the civil defence staff

7 receive certain specific assignments within the framework of its

8 responsibilities?

9 A. Yes, it did. We received such assignments both from the War

10 Presidency and from the government and from the operations group, and what

11 we had to do was to sanitise the terrain, and which is -- or, to clear up

12 the terrain. And this is part of the activities of the civil defence.

13 Q. In addition to that, did the civil defence engage in other

14 activities which were meant to protect abandoned property, agricultural

15 land, and livestock?

16 A. Yes, that is also one of our duties. We formed commissions which

17 we sent out to the field to record the facts. And after that we sought to

18 protect property, land, and everything else, such as livestock and the

19 like.

20 Q. A moment ago, answering one of my questions, you said that a large

21 number of refugees had come to Travnik. Tell me, could you tell us

22 roughly the number of refugees you're referring to when you say that they

23 were numerous?

24 A. I don't have the exact figures, but I can tell you with certainty

25 that, counting those that passed through Travnik and those that stayed in

Page 12761

1 Travnik, there were more than 200.000.

2 Q. In view of the wartime situation, was it simple, was it easy to

3 provide food and accommodation for such a large number of people?

4 A. Far from it. You see, Travnik is a town which had a population of

5 70.000 before the war, and it would happen that more than 30.000 people

6 would reach our town in one day. So you can imagine the kind of problems

7 we had to take care of those people, to feed them and put them up

8 somewhere. These were superhuman efforts that my men had to invest.

9 Q. Mr. Konjalic, are you aware that, after those operations in June,

10 the majority of the Croat population from the Bila valley abandoned their

11 homes and headed either towards Nova Bila or other areas under HVO

12 control?

13 A. Yes, I am aware of that. But I would add that the population

14 moved not only from the Bila valley but from the town of Travnik as well,

15 and all the surrounding villages. The Croats simply left their homes and

16 went away.

17 Q. The fact that such a large area was left without any population,

18 in carrying out its duties of protecting property, was the civil defence

19 confronted with additional and new problems?

20 A. Indeed, there were a large number of new problems that cropped up,

21 the worst being, or the most important being, how to protect a large

22 amount of property on such a large area, and with such few people that the

23 civil defence had at its disposal and a small number of commissioners.

24 Q. Tell me, Mr. Konjalic, when, after these operations, the routes

25 from Travnik towards the Bila valley and Zenica were opened again, did the

Page 12762

1 population start to move again, and especially refugees who had been

2 accommodated in collective lodgings?

3 A. Yes, and it was a stampede. These were large groups of refugees

4 who were trying to save themselves in other areas.

5 Q. You said that, among other things, your task was to form

6 commissions which were to organise moving into property that had been

7 abandoned. Why did you believe that this measure would be a good one to

8 protect property?

9 A. Well, the staff believed that if someone had moved into a house

10 and lived there, it was easier to protect it. The person living there

11 would protect it. This is what we tried to do. And in accordance with an

12 order from the president and a member of the government, we tried to move

13 a certain number of refugees into housing. Naturally, the appropriate

14 procedure was followed when doing this. And, in fact, the houses into

15 which people -- in which people lived were protected, so the staff was

16 correct in making this assessment.

17 Q. In response to my previous question, you said that there was

18 practically a stampede of people, this large-scale movement of people.

19 Did this have an effect on your work, or rather, was it impossible for you

20 to carry out your task of moving people into these houses completely? And

21 did you have to face problems such as these houses already being occupied

22 by refugees?

23 A. Yes. The civil protection, the civilian protection tried to move

24 refugees into houses in a planned manner, but certain refugees preempted

25 us and they moved into houses without the civilian protection being aware

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Page 12764

1 of this, without this being put on record. Naturally, they were concerned

2 for themselves because they were bored with life in collective centres,

3 and as soon as they could, they moved into abandoned houses. And this

4 mostly concerned the houses nearer to the town.

5 Q. Mr. Konjalic, when in the field, and when you made a record of the

6 state of property and of the people moving into property, did you notice

7 incidents such as looting or incidents involving the destruction of some

8 of those homes that had been abandoned?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Although you were not in the police, do you know to what extent it

11 was possible, in the conditions that prevailed at the time, to determine

12 who the perpetrators of these acts were? And did your commissioners tell

13 you about when and how such acts were committed?

14 A. Well, look, it was difficult to know who the perpetrators were,

15 because most of these individuals were individuals whom the civilian

16 protection did not know. Mostly, they were refugees; there were some

17 local inhabitants, too, whose houses were destroyed or shelled. They

18 remained without food, and you know that people were almost starving. So

19 it was difficult to -- not to expect that someone might go into an

20 abandoned house to take a bag of flour. People went to these abandoned

21 houses in order to obtain a certain amount of food. This concerned a vast

22 number of people, and the civilian protection -- no one from the civilian

23 protection could say who was involved.

24 Q. Mr. Konjalic, this unfortunate process of stealing property or

25 destroying property, did this take place throughout 1993 and later on, or

Page 12765

1 was it over after a few days?

2 A. Well, no, it didn't come to an end after a few days. After a few

3 days had passed, it was mostly food that was stolen. But the process

4 continued. Equipment was looted, and even roofs -- roof tiles were taken,

5 windows, doors, et cetera. So the looting of this abandoned property

6 continued.

7 Q. Mr. Konjalic, did you continue to strengthen the measures that you

8 had taken for protection, and did you re-examine the situation, the state

9 of the property? Or rather, towards the end of 1993, did you take

10 additional measures for the protection of the property and the livestock

11 and the goods?

12 A. Yes. This was our duty. And we continued to work to update our

13 information and to continue to protect abandoned property, naturally, to

14 the extent this was possible, because the commissioners and the members of

15 the staff weren't able to be on duty around the clock. They couldn't

16 guard every building in such a vast area throughout that period of time.

17 Q. Since you said that you were a member of the civilian protection

18 in the municipality or the district right up until 1995, could you say

19 whether that problem, the problem of looting and destruction of property

20 continued right up until 1995? Could you confirm that?

21 A. Yes, I can confirm that that was the case.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher help us to show

23 the witness a series of documents. I will then have a few questions to

24 put to the witness in relation to these documents. We have a sufficient

25 number of copies for the Trial Chamber and for our colleagues.

Page 12766

1 Q. Mr. Konjalic, could you please have a look at document number 9,

2 Defence number 1566. And once you have had a look at the first page,

3 could you tell me whether this is a document from the civilian protection

4 municipal staff.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Have a look at the last page of the report and tell me who signed

7 it as commander of the civilian protection municipal staff.

8 A. I did.

9 Q. Could you just have a brief look at the contents of the document,

10 and once you have had a look at the document, would you stay that this is,

11 in fact, what the civilian protection did in 1993, and are these the sort

12 of problems that you had to confront at the time?

13 A. Yes, one could say so. This would be the briefest sort of report

14 compiled by the civilian protection.

15 Q. Please have a look at document number 1 now. The number is

16 DH1225. Mr. Konjalic, are you familiar with this document?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What sort of duty did you perform in the civilian protection staff

19 when Malenica Momcila was the commander?

20 A. I was the chief of the staff.

21 Q. In the third paragraph in this report, it mentions problems, or

22 rather, the conclusions of your commissioners who had been in the field,

23 and in line 1 it says that:

24 "In spite of a ban prohibiting citizens to move around in the

25 abandoned areas, a large number of citizens were observed removing

Page 12767

1 abandoned property, taking away cattle," et cetera.

2 What is stated here, would that be the result of your personal

3 information and information that you obtained from your commissioners and

4 municipal staffs?

5 A. Yes, exactly. All the information and all the reports were

6 compiled on the basis of reports from the field. For the staff to take a

7 decision, it was necessary to have certain information either from the

8 staff of a certain local commune or from commissioners from the area

9 concerned.

10 Q. Mr. Konjalic, you as chief of staff, and later on as a commander

11 of the civilian protection staff, did you yourself go into the field and

12 talk to your commissioners? Were you able to verify the claims that they

13 made in their reports?

14 A. Yes, but I must admit that this did not happen frequently,

15 because, given my duties, I wasn't able to be absent from the staff very

16 often. Whenever it was possible, I visited local commune staffs and

17 commissioners in the field.

18 Q. Could you please have a look at document number 2 now, DH1233. A

19 while ago you said that you took various measures in order to protect and

20 guard abandoned property. Would this be one of the ways in which you and

21 the staff tried to protect abandoned property in a large area?

22 A. If you like, I could provide you with an explanation of this

23 certificate.

24 Q. Please go ahead.

25 A. Well, the civilian protection, when involved with the protection

Page 12768

1 of abandoned property, took certain steps. They issued these certificates

2 to individuals who were already in the village concerned. So if anyone

3 else appeared and wanted to move into the abandoned house, or destroyed,

4 in such a case, this individual could show the certificate obtained from

5 the staff, this certificate demonstrating that this individual was

6 responsible for the house or the property.

7 Q. Please have a look at document number 3, DH1256. Since you have

8 mentioned the problems that you were confronted with, did you inform the

9 government or the War Presidency in Travnik of these problems in good

10 time, and did you request their assistance in dealing with the problems

11 that you were confronted with?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you recognise this document, and the person who signed it?

14 A. Yes, I recognise the document. It's from the civilian protection

15 municipal staff, and I signed the document.

16 Q. Have a quick look at the document and tell me whether this is how

17 you would inform your superiors of the problems and difficulties that you

18 encountered when carrying out your tasks.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Could you have a look at document number 4, DH1302. Is this also

21 a document you are familiar with?

22 A. Yes. This is also a document from the municipal civilian

23 protection staff, and I signed the document.

24 Q. Is this an example of how you would inform the government about

25 the problems that you encountered when trying to move certain individuals

Page 12769

1 into houses in an organised manner, in order to protect abandoned

2 property?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. Could you have a look at document number 5 now, DH1303. A minute

5 ago you said that people left collective centres, and there was a sort of

6 stampede. But could you tell me if the collective centre, the collection

7 centre, was a school or something like that, how many people were kept

8 were kept there while the town was under blockade?

9 A. Well, for a certain period of time in the secondary school

10 building, there was about four and a half thousand refugees. And in a

11 room that was the size of a classroom in which you usually have 25 pupils,

12 there were up to 90 refugees who slept there and lived there.

13 Q. Was this a difficult situation, in fact, the reason for which they

14 tried to move out of those buildings and, in a certain sense, solve this

15 difficult problem?

16 A. Yes, of course. They were living in very difficult conditions.

17 So whenever one attempted to do something new, this meant they were trying

18 to improve their conditions.

19 Q. Have a look at document number 5, DH1303. Does this reflect some

20 of the problems you have just testified about?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In answer to my previous questions, Mr. Konjalic, you said that

23 you would receive tasks on a continuous basis, and that you carried out

24 your duties and regularly informed the authorities of your problems.

25 Please look now at document 6, 7, and 8, and tell me, please, whether you

Page 12770

1 are familiar with this document, the document under number 6.

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Is it a document of your staff?

4 A. Yes, it is a document of the civilian protection municipal staff,

5 written by me.

6 Q. Does it reflect a continuous concern about abandoned agricultural

7 land in the municipality, and an attempt to let individuals use it

8 provisionally so as to be able to survive and to protect that property at

9 the same time? This document is Defence Exhibit 1537.

10 Please look now at document number 7, Defence Exhibit 1540, and

11 tell me, please, are you familiar with this document?

12 A. Yes. This is also a document of the municipal staff which I

13 signed as the commander.

14 Q. In addition to the problems of refugees, did you also have a

15 problem regarding the provision of food and accommodation of displaced

16 persons, and even the local population which was not receiving any kind of

17 aid from international organisations, the UNHCR, and others that provided

18 aid only for the refugees?

19 A. Quite so. I have to state here that, during that period of time,

20 the local residents were living under worse conditions than the refugees,

21 except for accommodation, because the refugees would receive something,

22 but the local population received nothing. They had spent all the food

23 reserves they had, and we were unable to help them. So that the local

24 residents were, in many cases, hungrier than the refugees.

25 Q. Was that situation why the abandoned land was being tilled, so

Page 12771

1 that those inhabitants could be fed?

2 A. Precisely so. Our aim was to allot land to the local inhabitants

3 and the refugees for them to till so as to be able to grow food for

4 themselves.

5 Q. Now look at document number 8, please, and tell me, is it a

6 document that you may be familiar with as an example of how you acted as

7 the civil defence?

8 A. Yes, I am familiar with this document. It is of the municipal

9 civil defence staff, signed by the then chief, Mr. Irfan Samardzic, who

10 acted as chief when I was the commander.

11 Q. This is Defence document 1541. Mr. Konjalic, when you look back

12 to the period in 1993, when you were performing such important civilian

13 activities, could you tell us whether you did your very best under the

14 prevailing conditions to protect the property of people who had left their

15 homes, and, according to your sincere conviction, do you think you could

16 have done anything more to prevent further devastation and destruction of

17 that property?

18 A. We did everything that was in our power; I would say even twice as

19 much. However, I wish to underline once again that when there was this

20 stampede of people and all those developments, even had the civil defence

21 been double in size, it couldn't have protected all the abandoned

22 property, whether we're talking about houses, land, or livestock, because

23 it's an enormous area, a large number of inhabitants, and a lot of houses

24 and land. But we did everything we could.

25 Q. Tell me, did the civilian authorities call on the population that

Page 12772

1 had left to come back, to return, so as to be in their homes, and also to

2 protect all the damage that was inflicted on their property from the

3 moment they left until the end of the war?

4 A. Yes, we did everything to call the population to come back, but

5 this was very difficult. You see, almost in all the villages there would

6 be someone left, and it was easy in that case to protect them. But

7 villages where there was not a single inhabitant, and a village is large,

8 it was very hard to do anything, because, you see, you can't watch over a

9 house 24 hours in order to save it.

10 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Konjalic, for answering my questions.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have the Defence counsel for the

12 second accused got any questions for this witness?

13 MR. DIXON: No, Your Honour, we don't have any questions for this

14 witness. Thank you.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution for the

16 cross-examination.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

18 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:

19 Q. Good morning, witness. My name is Daryl Mundis, and, along with

20 my colleagues here, we represent the Prosecution in this case. I have

21 just a few questions for you today, sir, but I would like to reiterate

22 what the Presiding Judge told you this morning in terms of the questions

23 that I'll be asking you. And I would ask, if any of my questions are

24 confusing or you don't understand them, please tell me that and I will

25 rephrase the question. It is certainly not my intention in any way to

Page 12773

1 confuse you by the questions that I ask you this morning.

2 Do you understand that, sir?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Let me ask you this: You told us that there were more than

5 200.000 refugees in the Travnik area, or people who were passing through

6 or remained in Travnik. Was that the total number of refugees, or were

7 there 200.000 at any given point?

8 A. No. Never was there a total of 200.000. I said that more than

9 200.000 passed through Travnik, but the number of those who permanently

10 resided in Travnik was between 25 and 30.000 refugees.

11 Q. Let me ask you, if you would, if you could turn to the document,

12 that's tab number 3 that you have before you, which is DH1256. And if you

13 look at the second paragraph, there is reference to "around 18.000

14 refugees." Do you see that in the document?

15 A. Yes, I do.

16 Q. I take it, sir, from this document, that at the -- or on or about

17 the 25th of June, 1993, does that reflect the total number of -- or

18 approximate number of refugees in Travnik municipality at that time?

19 A. This was the number of refugees that the municipal staff knew the

20 names of and their origin. But the number was much higher than this.

21 These were registered refugees, registered in the municipal staff.

22 Q. Sir, you also told us earlier that the civil defence or civilian

23 protection staff was not in any way subordinated to the army; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 12774

1 Q. And you told us, though, that you did work together as partners

2 with the army; is that accurate?

3 A. Yes, it is.

4 Q. And I believe it was your testimony that the army or its units

5 would make suggestions to the civil defence staff.

6 A. I said that they would mostly suggest to us to do our part of the

7 work; that is, they would signal when the time came, because of the war

8 operations, for us to do our part of the work.

9 Q. You also mentioned, I believe, twice this morning the operations

10 group. I assume that that was the Bosanska Krajina operations group?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And I take it that most of the suggestions that you received from

13 the 3rd Corps came from the operations group, Bosanska Krajina?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Can you turn, please, to the document, tab number 1, that you have

16 in front of you, which is DH1255. I'd ask you, sir, to take a look at the

17 first paragraph of that document, and you'll see in that document a

18 reference to the orders of the OG Bosanska Krajina command. And I ask you

19 if the use of the word "orders" is consistent with the notion that they

20 were simply suggesting or working in partnership with the civilian defence

21 staff, in your opinion.

22 A. Yes, this word "order" was not interpreted by us as an order.

23 This is the way in which an army operates. But for us, this was a

24 suggestion, to act as suggested, to go along and carry out our measures.

25 And those measures related to the protection of the livestock. And this

Page 12775

1 was not an order issued by the government or the presidency, but it was

2 more of a suggestion to the municipal staff for us to be able to start our

3 work, because there were combat operations and we were not sure when it

4 was safe enough for people to go out into the field to carry out their

5 duties. So this was more of a suggestion.

6 Q. Let me turn now to some questions you were asked towards the end

7 of the direct examination. You told us that many of the local residents

8 were worse off than the refugees when it came to obtaining foodstuffs; is

9 that accurate?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did the civilian defence staff have any interaction with

12 humanitarian organisations to provide such food relief?

13 A. Yes, we were working on a continuous basis with the humanitarian

14 organisations.

15 Q. And did this include foreign humanitarian organisations?

16 A. Yes. We were in touch with the UNHCR, the International Red

17 Cross, and Medicine Sans Frontieres.

18 Q. Were you aware of the presence of foreign humanitarian workers in

19 Mehurici?

20 A. There were humanitarian workers who were foreign, not just in

21 Mehurici but in the town of Travnik. Yes, there were some everywhere.

22 I'm aware of that.

23 Q. How much liaison work --

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I did not object to

25 the previous question. The witness has answered it. But this question is

Page 12776

1 not linked to the examination-in-chief, nor is it linked to the documents

2 I have shown the witness. So I think we need to know on what grounds the

3 Prosecution is asking this question.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you see there's

5 an objection. But I note in document number 6 -- no, 5, I'm sorry,

6 "Conclusion," under number 2, it says: "The government would ask Merhamet

7 to continue with the operation."

8 Isn't Merhamet a humanitarian organisation, a foreign one?

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, it's a domestic humanitarian

10 organisation, as far as I know.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness could

12 answer.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Mundis.

14 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you.

15 Q. Sir, are you familiar with the organisation Merhamet?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Do you know where that organisation is based?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please.

20 A. The headquarters of that organisation is in Sarajevo, and of the

21 municipal Merhamet organisation, in Travnik itself. And it has branches,

22 I think, in Turbe, Mehurici, perhaps in some other places, smaller branch

23 offices.

24 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with the leave of the Trial Chamber,

25 in order to fully respond to the objection to the prior line of

Page 12777

1 questioning, I would ask that I be permitted to do so in the absence of

2 the witness, unless the Chamber will permit me to continue asking a few

3 questions along the lines I was pursuing.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let us ask the witness to leave

5 for a few minutes, please.

6 [The witness stands down]

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you have the

8 floor.

9 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

10 As the Trial Chamber is aware, there has been, on numerous

11 occasions, evidence put before Your Honours about the foreign humanitarian

12 workers in and around Travnik municipality, and especially around

13 Mehurici. There has also been evidence before this Trial Chamber that

14 such humanitarian workers came to Bosnia as humanitarian aid workers, but

15 some of them subsequently took up arms under the guise of being Mujahedin.

16 This witness has testified about the scope of his duties, which

17 included, among the civil protection functions, of providing food, aid,

18 and shelter to both the refugees and members of the local communities in

19 the Travnik municipality. As such, and in light of his previous answer to

20 the first question I put to him, this witness may be in a position to

21 provide information concerning such foreign humanitarian workers. It's

22 simply, Mr. President, it is a direct link to his testimony about the

23 difficulties encountered by the civil protection authorities in terms of

24 providing aid to the local community and to the refugee community.

25 We believe that this is -- stems directly from his

Page 12778

1 cross-examination, and we don't anticipate asking this witness a large

2 number of questions on this issue. But it depends on what information, if

3 any, he has that might be important to the Trial Chamber on this point.

4 And, of course, the issue of foreign humanitarian workers and the links to

5 the Mujahedin was set forth in the indictment as well, so we believe that

6 this witness, because of the position he had, may have some relevant

7 information that is of assistance to the Trial Chamber, and it's our

8 position that that stems directly from his direct examination and the full

9 scope of his duties during the time period relevant to this indictment.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll give the floor again to the

11 Defence. But to summarise, the Prosecution tells us that they wish to put

12 a question to the witness concerning humanitarian workers, whether they be

13 foreign or national, and to ask him whether he knew that there were

14 foreign humanitarian workers. And the Prosecution would like to be

15 authorised to ask a question about the Mujahedin. The Prosecution tells

16 us that, on a number of occasions, witnesses have come to testify about

17 the presence of humanitarian -- foreign humanitarian workers who, at

18 first, brought food, money, psychological support, and other kinds of

19 support to the displaced population, and that subsequently these

20 humanitarian workers were "converted" to armed combatants. And that is

21 why the Prosecution would like to put questions to the witness.

22 The Defence objected a moment ago, and in the light of what has

23 been said, what is the position of the Defence?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we fully

25 acknowledge the arguments put forth by our learned colleagues from the

Page 12779

1 Prosecution, that is, that they have a need to elucidate, investigate, or

2 learn in some other way about the facts that my colleague has referred to

3 and which have to do with foreigners, including foreign humanitarian

4 workers, some of whom became men under arms.

5 However, Mr. President, we are in a court, in criminal

6 proceedings, and are strictly bound by the rules of this Tribunal. And

7 Rule 90(H)(ii) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence, (H)(ii), the

8 cross-examination is limited, and it is clearly stipulated what is

9 allowed. And I will quote:

10 "In the cross-examination of a witness who is able to give

11 evidence relevant to the case for the cross-examining party, counsel shall

12 put to that witness the nature of the case of the party for whom that

13 counsel appears which is in contradiction of the evidence given by the

14 witness."

15 So there are two convictions; that counsel shall put forth the

16 nature of what they are trying to prove, and which must be in

17 contradiction with the evidence given by the witness.

18 So far we haven't heard any question that may be in contradiction

19 with what this witness has said, so such a broad interpretation of the

20 rights of cross-examination is not allowed in the Rules of Procedure and

21 Evidence, and is in contradiction with the Statute of this Tribunal and

22 the rights of the accused, especially as this witness has nothing to do

23 with the Mujahedin or any other such broad issue which the Prosecution has

24 offered in argument. So I think he cannot be said to have contradicted

25 anything. And for that reason, we feel that the Prosecution should not be

Page 12780

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8

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Page 12781

1 allowed to put such questions to this witness.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Mundis, do you wish to

3 respond to the Defence, whose arguments are based on the provisions of

4 Rule 90(H)(ii), which says that when a party is cross-examining, he must

5 show evidence that contradicts his testimony; and it must also specify the

6 nature of the case which affects also the credibility of the witness. And

7 there is point (iii) which refers to the rights of the Trial Chamber in

8 that regard.

9 Mr. Mundis.

10 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Our position, actually, is

11 that this would fall more under Rule 90(H)(i) because it arose out of

12 subject matter of the evidence in chief, number one.

13 Number two, however, let me put forward our position that, in

14 order to get to the point where we can test the credibility of the

15 witness, or put our case to the witness, we need to lay a foundation and

16 establish if the witness even has any knowledge about the matter so that

17 we can get to that point. And I would simply suggest that the first

18 question that I put to the witness was getting to the point where we can

19 determine if the witness does, in fact, know anything about these foreign

20 humanitarian aid workers, not to mention whether we can then get to the

21 next point that he may or may not know anything about, which is the issue

22 of whether they, in fact, were converted, or some of them were converted,

23 into Mujahedin.

24 So I think it's actually a bit premature for my learned colleague

25 to say that the witness doesn't know anything about the Mujahedin until I

Page 12782

1 put those questions to him. If he says he doesn't know anything about

2 them, then that's either the end of the cross-examination on that point,

3 or I'm then going to challenge his credibility based on whether or not he

4 could not know about that in light of the large amount of evidence on the

5 point.

6 So it's premature at this point to even be raising 90(H)(ii) until

7 I've laid some kind of a foundation that would go down that path. But

8 again, our primary response is that we are attempting to cross-examine him

9 on matters arising directly out of his evidence in chief.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is almost half past 10. We

11 will withdraw and we will render our decision when we resume work, which

12 will be at about five to 11.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

14 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Trial Chamber

16 will now render its decision relating to the objection raised by the

17 Defence, the Defence's objection to the Prosecution's wish to ask the

18 witness about foreign humanitarian workers in Travnik or in the area.

19 Pursuant to Rule 90(H)(i), it was said that the Prosecution

20 couldn't ask a question in its cross-examination that didn't directly

21 relate to the answer of the witness. The Prosecution responded to this

22 objection by saying that they could ask such questions, and all the more

23 so in that the witness had answered a question about foreign humanitarian

24 workers.

25 The Trial Chamber believes that it is in the interests of justice

Page 12783

1 for the witness, who was involved in the civilian protection, be asked

2 about all the aspects of the work of the civilian protection, and this

3 includes, naturally, the relations he might have had with humanitarian

4 organisations, especially if they were in the area where he performed his

5 duties. Therefore, the Prosecution is authorised to ask this witness the

6 question.

7 As a result, I will now ask the usher to call the witness into the

8 courtroom.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You may sit down.

11 The Prosecution may continue with its cross-examination.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Q. Witness, prior to the time when you were escorted out of the

14 courtroom and we took the recess, I was asking you some questions about

15 foreign humanitarian aid workers in Travnik municipality during the time

16 period when you were with the civil protection. How much interaction, if

17 any, did you have with the humanitarian aid workers, the foreign

18 humanitarian aid workers, in Mehurici?

19 A. We did not communicate at all. I don't think I finished my

20 answer, so if I may clarify what I said. I'm familiar with a humanitarian

21 organisation called -- for children, it was called something like that.

22 There were three organisations, Caritas, Dobrotvor, and Merhamet. And

23 there was this organisation called Food For Children, that's what its name

24 was. But I don't know whose organisation it is. I was informed that

25 sometimes they would distribute milk or milk products for small children,

Page 12784

1 for babies.

2 Q. Sir, to the best of your recollection, when you say "we did not

3 communicate at all," did anyone in the Travnik municipal civil protection

4 staff, or civil defence staff, did anyone in your staff have any

5 communications with foreign humanitarian aid workers in Mehurici?

6 A. No. No. As far as I can remember, no. And it wasn't necessary.

7 I don't even know how they distributed this food for children, and I don't

8 know to whom they distributed this food.

9 Q. To your knowledge, was there any requirement for such a foreign

10 humanitarian organisation to register with the civil protection staff or

11 the municipal authorities?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Do you know for how long the foreign humanitarian organisations

14 were operating out of Mehurici?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Do you know what happened to any of the foreigners who were

17 working for humanitarian organisations in Mehurici?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You told us earlier that you were familiar with them. Can you

20 tell us how? In what way were you familiar with the work they were doing?

21 A. Well, this children's organisation, Food For Children

22 organisation, was in the town itself. That's what it was called, although

23 I don't know English. I knew that it was a humanitarian organisation that

24 would provide or supply Food for Children and, on the whole, for small

25 children. And as the UNHCR provided us with food for children, it wasn't

Page 12785

1 necessary for us to have any contact with them or to work with them. I

2 don't even know who were the members of this organisation.

3 Q. Okay. Do you recall how you became aware of their presence in

4 Mehurici?

5 A. I saw this name, Food For Children, in the town. I asked someone

6 what it meant, and a colleague of mine said it was an organisation that

7 supplied food for children, and it was present in two or three locations.

8 There was such an organisation in Mehurici, and I think there was another

9 one in Turbe, which is in a different direction.

10 Q. Let me ask you this, sir: Throughout your testimony today, it

11 seems to me that the terms "civil protection" and "civil defence" have

12 been used interchangeably. Is there a difference between civil defence

13 and civil protection?

14 A. Well, of course, I don't know the exact translation. I don't know

15 what civil protection and civil defence means in English. Civilian

16 protection, "civilna zastita," means protecting people and people's

17 property. Civil defence is probably a broader concept. It probably also

18 involves a civilian power, civilian authorities, in addition to the

19 protective aspect of the work. I'm still not sure what the right

20 translation is, but I think that the term "civil defence" is perhaps more

21 appropriate.

22 Q. Okay. That actually was my precise point. I wasn't sure the

23 differences in the Bosnian language which perhaps contributed to the fact

24 that it seems that the terms have been used interchangeably.

25 So I guess my question really is: In Bosnian, the name of the

Page 12786

1 organisation or agency that you worked for was "civil protection staff"?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So the correct term for the agency that you were with was the

4 Travnik municipal civil protection staff.

5 A. That's quite right.

6 Q. To your knowledge, was there any kind of agency or structure that

7 was known as the civil defence staff in Travnik municipality?

8 A. I'm not familiar with that name.

9 Q. So references, then, in today's testimony to civil defence would,

10 in fact, be to the Travnik municipal civil protection staff.

11 A. Yes. That's what I was referring to all the time.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, earlier you told us, I believe you testified that

13 there was some training that you underwent to gain expertise in civil

14 protection, and I believe you said you had that in Belgrade or perhaps an

15 area near Belgrade; I believe you said Zemun.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And I take it, then, sir, that you had that experience or training

18 prior to the war breaking out.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You told us earlier that the civil protection staff believed that

21 it was easier to protect civilian -- abandoned civilian real estate or

22 property if there were persons living there in those abandoned houses; is

23 that a fair summary?

24 A. That's quite right.

25 Q. Was that -- did that notion of the fact that it would be easier to

Page 12787

1 protect property if persons were living in there, was that part of the

2 training that you received to become a civil protection expert, manager?

3 A. That's one way to assist the inhabitants, the population, yes.

4 Q. To your knowledge, sir, was that the position of the Republic of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina government during the time period in question?

6 A. Yes, it was.

7 Q. So I take it, then, that that would be a principle that would

8 apply throughout the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 A. Well, I don't know whether it was applied throughout the territory

10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, but it was applied in Travnik.

11 Q. But the principle involved would be applicable throughout the

12 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, whether it was applied or not, but the

13 principle would remain the same.

14 A. That's what we did. That's how we worked. If you like, I can

15 explain why.

16 Q. I think you've done that previously. But let me just -- I'm

17 curious about this, because it would seem to me that if that were a

18 principle of general applicability, that the same principle would apply,

19 for example, to abandoned Bosniak homes in the Krajina or in other areas

20 where Serbs moved into those homes. Would that be -- would that fit

21 within civil protection?

22 A. We applied this principle to Bosniak houses, too, not only in the

23 case of Croat houses, because certain places were abandoned by Bosniaks,

24 too, and we would move in two or three families there. And we would make

25 them responsible for keeping watch over the other houses, and they were to

Page 12788

1 inform us if something undesirable happens that we could then inform the

2 competent authorities of the fact.

3 Q. Let me ask you, then, sir, a final question, if I could. The --

4 you told us earlier that the Croats in many areas in the Bila valley had

5 simply left the area. Do you know why?

6 A. I do. They were taken away by the HVO. I have reliable

7 information from Croat friends of mine who stayed on. They had very

8 serious problems because they didn't want to leave. And afterwards, they

9 weren't even considered to be good Croats.

10 Q. I apologise, because I told you that was my last question. I do

11 have one more question.

12 The documents that you've been shown today, the documents that

13 you've been shown today that you had signed, you signed those with the

14 title of commander, and the use of the term "commander" in the context of

15 a civil protection service seems a bit alien to someone who maybe is not

16 from Bosnia. I'm wondering if that was the regular term that was used for

17 civil protection officers, and if that implied any other kind of function

18 in terms of command, being the commander of the staff.

19 A. We'd been organised in accordance with the instructions issued.

20 The civilian protection staff consists of a commander, a chief, and a

21 certain number of staff members for providing protection. And what I

22 signed wasn't just signed in a military capacity. We had staff sessions.

23 And I must point out that my staff was multi-ethnic throughout the war;

24 there were Bosniaks, Croats, and Serbs, and Albanians who were members of

25 the staff; and there were even members of the Roma community. And after

Page 12789

1 staff sessions, certain conclusions would be adopted. Only then can a

2 commander sign certain documents, if information or an analysis is at

3 stake.

4 Q. Thank you, sir.

5 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions at this

6 time, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence counsel?

8 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Konjalic, you mentioned the measures taken to

10 move certain individuals into houses, or rather, to cooperate with the BH

11 army, and you provided my learned colleague with a number of answers.

12 Could you tell me whether this cooperation also involved taking measures

13 to prevent property from being looted or damaged.

14 A. Yes. Since this was the zone of responsibility of the Krajina OG,

15 they'd have the responsibility or the authority to ban movement through

16 that area. So we asked them that if individuals didn't have certificates

17 that we had issued, that these people should not be allowed to enter those

18 areas. This was to enable us to perform our duties more easily.

19 Q. And when you now look back to that cooperation, could you tell me

20 whether these bans, if they were bans, concerned areas where there was

21 ongoing combat, or was it necessary for you to make any requests if you

22 are performing your duties in the free territory?

23 A. Well, in the free territory, it wasn't necessary for them to give

24 us certificates of any kind. On the whole, this took place in the zone of

25 combat, where people's lives might be at risk. So we didn't know where

Page 12790

1 the lines were, we didn't know where they were shooting from, so if a

2 member of ours entered the area, his life might be at risk. That's why we

3 asked the army to tell us where our people could go to perform their

4 duties.

5 Q. Mr. Konjalic, do you know whether the civilian and military

6 authorities took any other measures for cooperation? For example, did

7 they introduce a curfew, did they set up checkpoints to control the

8 movement of the population, to the extent that that was possible, or were

9 certain individuals arrested or prosecuted if it had been determined that

10 they had looted or destroyed houses?

11 A. Yes, there was a curfew for this very reason. At some point in

12 time, in the evening, people who didn't have passes, permits, were not

13 allowed to move around. The police was present in the town and they

14 carried out their duties. They were involved in the security of the

15 citizens in the town, and the troops were around the town where there was

16 combat activity. And naturally there were checkpoints, too, because it

17 wasn't that easy to gain access to the zone of combat.

18 Q. Thank you. My learned colleague asked you why the Croats had left

19 that area.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] In order to ask the witness my

21 following question, could he be shown Exhibit P890.

22 Q. Mr. Konjalic, could you have a look at the document, please. In

23 fact, this is a joint appeal to return to homes. When you were answering

24 a question from my learned colleague, you said that you had personal

25 knowledge from your Croat friends, that they said they were under great

Page 12791

1 pressure to leave the area together with the HVO.

2 Could you please tell me whether this document shows the sort of

3 efforts made by the civilian and military authorities to ensure that all

4 the citizens could return to their homes, in order to protect their own

5 property, among other things, because the MUP and army forces were not

6 able to secure all of the houses.

7 A. Yes, that's just what I said. This is the first time I've seen

8 the document, but I'm familiar with its contents, because to Muhamed

9 Curic, the president of the War Presidency, I made such a suggestion. And

10 I'm glad that they did in fact draft such a document.

11 Q. So were such appeals forwarded to citizens through the media and

12 in other ways so that your citizens could return and move back into their

13 houses?

14 A. Yes, that's quite right. We proceeded in this manner all the

15 time. The civil protection did this, too, as well as certain Croats who

16 had remained in the town; they would appeal to their family members to

17 return.

18 Q. My learned colleague also asked you a question that concerned

19 certain principles, was it a principle that was followed, was one of the

20 principles the idea that the abandoned houses should be occupied, was

21 there a decision, a conclusion, from the War Presidency and the government

22 on the basis of which you took action in certain situations.

23 A. Well, we couldn't have acted in any other way. We received from

24 the government, or rather, from the War Presidency an order, according to

25 which we were do everything we could in order to protect property and

Page 12792

1 goods, and we acted accordingly.

2 Q. Mr. Konjalic, do you know whether, in the course of the war, many

3 series of life were governed by decree laws issued by the Presidency of

4 Bosnia-Herzegovina at assemblies of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 A. Yes, I'm aware of that.

6 Q. Perhaps you can remember this, perhaps not. But do you know

7 whether, in 1992, a decree law was issued on temporarily abandoned

8 property, and was there another decree on temporarily abandoned flats?

9 And did these decrees regulate how abandoned flats and abandoned property

10 was to be moved into? And did these decrees guarantee that people who had

11 left such property could return.

12 A. Yes. I was familiar with that, and not just I. All the staff

13 members were familiar with those decrees.

14 Q. In accordance with those laws, at the end of the war, and when

15 those people returned, was this property returned to those people in

16 accordance with the law? And when they had suffered damage, were they

17 compensated?

18 A. Yes. In the cases where civil protection moved people into

19 property legally, a record was made of the property found there. And when

20 the owner returned, the individuals in the houses had to return the

21 property, the house, and the items used. And these items were included in

22 a list.

23 Q. My last question concerns the titles "commander" and "chief" of

24 the civil protection staff. You said that you were a civilian body, and

25 I'm interested in that name, because my colleague said that this might

Page 12793

1 confuse someone who is not from Bosnia-Herzegovina. What I would like to

2 know is whether these names have anything in common with the name of the

3 commander of the municipal staff of the Territorial Defence and the chief

4 of staff of the Territorial Defence, or rather, does it have anything in

5 common with the name of the command of some military unit, or the command

6 or chief of some military unit? Are the bodies in question completely

7 different, or is something else at stake?

8 A. These bodies are completely different. The commander of the civil

9 protection, the chief of civil protection, these are names that have

10 absolutely nothing to do with military formations. This was our system of

11 command and control in the case of the units of civil protection.

12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Konjalic.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

14 questions.

15 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, we have no questions for this witness.

16 Thank you.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Judges have a certain number

18 of questions for you.

19 Questioned by the Court:

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall try from the beginning

21 to clarify this question of the status of your entity, called the civil

22 protection staff, in relation to the military.

23 Would you be kind enough to look at the documents which the

24 Defence has shown you, and specifically document number 1.

25 When you look at document number 1, to the left, on the top - are

Page 12794

1 you reading like I am - is there a registration number and a date and a

2 subject? Yes?

3 You, who did your military service in the JNA, this format of a

4 document, doesn't it have a military aspect to it? Because we could show

5 you military documents which have exactly the same format. What would be

6 your explanation?

7 A. This is the way in which offices functioned; the protocol number,

8 the date, and this was obligatory in office work, in administrative work.

9 After that the document is archived under this number so that you can find

10 it whenever you need it.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. So this is just a pure

12 coincidence that the form of this correspondence coincides with military

13 correspondence, but you're telling us that it is administrative. Is it

14 also coincidence that you had the title of commander of a staff? Is that

15 also an administrative matter, to be commander of a staff?

16 A. No, it wasn't an administrative title, it was a title, it was a

17 rank, it was a function. We had our ranks, too. If they hadn't stolen

18 our uniforms, you would see what rank the commander of the civil

19 protection had; we had insignia.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You have answered a

21 question I was going to put to you. I was going to ask you whether you

22 had uniforms, and you just told us that they stole your uniforms. So you

23 had a uniform?

24 A. Yes. It was blue.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With insignia and a cap?

Page 12795

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And were you possibly armed.

3 A. No.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Never?

5 A. According to the Geneva Conventions, a civil protection cannot

6 bear arms.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But you did have a uniform.

8 A. We had a blue uniform.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. To resolve a problem of

10 translation in English, will you please look at document number 1 and

11 document number 2, because the English translation of your institution,

12 once it is called civil defence and the second time as civil protection.

13 So I want to find the identical word in your language. There are two

14 different translations into English. Document 1 and document 2, do they

15 come from your institution?

16 A. Yes.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So I wish to draw the attention

18 of the Defence, because they are producing the documents, that this

19 prompted some questions from the Prosecution, you must have noted that the

20 English translation sometimes is civil defence and sometimes protection,

21 but the witness tells us that it is one and the same entity. So in the

22 documents, and my questions are based solely on the documents, I have

23 noted that in the documents provided to us that you also had the

24 responsibility of collecting bodies, the bodies of persons killed in the

25 area of operations.

Page 12796

1 And please look at document number 3. Was it your duty to take

2 care of corpses and to bury them, because there's reference to burial

3 here, too.

4 A. Yes, that is a civil protection measure. We call it sanitation.

5 And the aim is to prevent infectious diseases.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In concrete terms, how did this

7 happen? When the army certainly was able to call on you to collect the

8 bodies and to bury them, how did this happen, to the best of your

9 recollection? Who would call you? What were the logistics that you had

10 to do this? What did you do to identify the bodies? Because in your

11 report, which is to be found within the file provided by the Defence, and

12 it is document number 9, in which you refer to the burial of 70 people who

13 were killed, 50 identified and 20 not identified.

14 To make it clear to the Judges, could you tell us how this

15 happened; how were you warned, how you went out into the field, and what

16 you did there?

17 A. You see, when there are combat operations, one army forces the

18 other to move. And when the army pushes back the enemy forces, it's

19 normal to expect that there will be dead on our side, because then it is

20 territory liberated by our army. We know because we can hear the

21 shooting. You can hear the cannon and the shells, and we're all ready to

22 act; a unit is ready, with stretchers and everything else that is

23 required.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A small question stemming from

25 what you have just said. You say, "We were prepared." Were you aware of

Page 12797

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6

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8

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13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

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24

25

Page 12798

1 the military operation taking place before it took place? You say that

2 you were preparing yourselves. If you were, it meant that you knew what

3 was going to happen.

4 A. Your Honour, you obviously have not understood me. The town of

5 Travnik is in a valley with two mountains, on one side Vlasic and on the

6 other Vilenica. And when a bullet is shot 5 kilometres away, you can hear

7 it, not to mention a shell. But that was a military secret. How could we

8 know about military operation? But our units, not just this one for

9 sanitation, but also the fire brigades and everything else, was ready to

10 act.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you would hear shells and

12 bullets. How could you deduce from that that there were dead if you were

13 5 kilometres away? Somebody must call you to tell you to collect the

14 bodies. Who? Who was that?

15 A. Yes, that was mostly somebody from the army.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] He did so by telephone, or how

17 did you communicate with the army? Was it by telephone? Did they come to

18 see you?

19 A. I told you that in the field we would had commissioners. A

20 soldier would reach the closest commissioner in the area and he would tell

21 him what was happening. And then the commissioner, through his couriers,

22 would inform the small staff in his local commune, and that small staff

23 was duty-bound to inform the staff of which I was the commander.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. Now, to collect the

25 bodies, what did you do? Did you have vehicles to transport them? And

Page 12799

1 what did you do to identify them?

2 A. These were vehicles, not special vehicles, but the vehicles we

3 had. And we would go out into the field and collect the people killed,

4 the bodies of the people killed. The identification was done by the

5 competent body, and that is the MUP or the police.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where were the bodies taken?

7 A. That depended. Sometimes they were buried on the spot, if these

8 were local residents, and if somebody recognised them and wanted them to

9 be buried there.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you would bury them in the

11 cemetery of the commune or on the battlefield?

12 A. No. They would mostly be buried at the cemetery.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And suppose that you don't know

14 who the dead person is. What happens?

15 A. Then the police, using certain methods that I'm not familiar with

16 would write down as unidentified persons, NN, and then we would get the

17 green light, if the person had been registered under a certain number as

18 an NN, and we would get the signal from them when we could bury that

19 person once they had all the information they needed about it, about the

20 body.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you were the one to bury the

22 bodies, who placed the bodies into the ground.

23 A. Yes.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you did this, was there a

25 death certificate and a permission for burial? Did you have a death

Page 12800

1 certificate allowing you to bury the person, or was it done just like

2 that, without any documents?

3 A. All the persons had the necessary documents. Not a single person

4 was buried just like that, without being identified, marked. If a family

5 member was there, it would be done in the religious manner, the way they

6 wished, and where they wished the body to be buried. The body would be

7 transported to that spot.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let me move on to another

9 subject, and that is the occupation of abandoned buildings into which you

10 would house refugees.

11 In the documents provided by the Defence, I have noticed that

12 sometimes they have refugee cards. So these 200.000 refugees, or 18.000

13 at a particular point in time, these refugees, did they all have ID cards

14 testifying to the fact that they were refugees? How did you do that?

15 Would you, indeed, check these cards to make sure that they were refugees?

16 A. Yes. Every refugee living and staying in Travnik municipality had

17 a refugee card with a number and the basic information about him; where he

18 came from, when he arrived, and how many members he had in his household,

19 so the members of his household were listed on the card, too. And the

20 refugees in transit would stay for a day, or two on the outside, and then

21 they would head off to Zenica or to some foreign countries. And those

22 refugees were just registered on paper but they were not issued refugee

23 cards, because they did not wish to reside in Travnik, so they were in

24 transit. We took them over, we put them up, provided food for two or

25 three days. Some people did not stay longer than two hours. They had

Page 12801

1 relatives in Zenica and they would go on to Zenica.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For the refugees who stayed, you

3 said that they had to be accommodated, and vacant flats had to be found

4 for them. What did you do to establish that there were vacant apartments?

5 Did you have employees under you who went around the streets to make a

6 record of abandoned apartments?

7 A. The Travnik municipality had a commission that made a list of

8 abandoned apartments, and the civil defence -- civil protection had lists

9 of households from their commissioners. So we knew how many households

10 every village had, or how many houses there were in every village. We

11 even knew the owners of those houses.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. So you're telling us

13 that the municipality would prepare a list of abandoned apartments, and

14 you were given that list. To the best of your knowledge, the persons who

15 abandoned their houses, and when leaving they didn't know that refugees

16 would come to replace them, to the best of your knowledge, did the

17 municipality requisition those apartments for occupation? Because the

18 Penal Code of your country has a provision that protects private property,

19 so private property is protected and one cannot appropriate it. And to

20 put someone in there in the place of the legitimate owner, there must be a

21 document requisitioning that apartment. So was there any such thing, to

22 the best of your knowledge?

23 A. I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the term "requisition."

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was there a document coming from

25 the municipal authorities saying that a particular apartment or house was

Page 12802

1 being temporarily placed at the disposal of the refugee? Was there that

2 type of document? You're saying yes.

3 A. Yes, there were such documents which were issued for temporary

4 occupation of an apartment, and it stated "until the return of the

5 rightful tenant"; and that they were duty-bound to look after it and to

6 restore it to their rightful owners in the same condition.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you're still in charge of all

8 this area, to the best of your knowledge, in the years that followed, was

9 there any litigation over the occupation of these apartments? Were there

10 owners who found that something had been stolen, that their property had

11 been damaged? Are you aware of any lawsuits afterwards with regard to

12 these apartments? And did they inform you of the looting of abandoned

13 houses? People left, locked the door, and when they returned nothing was

14 left. Do you have any knowledge of that?

15 A. Let me tell you that the Travnik municipality is the first

16 municipality that received the certificate of an open city. It is the

17 first municipality to which refugees have started to return. We have an

18 acknowledgement of that. And also, we were among the first to restore

19 property, so that in Travnik municipality, there are no outstanding issues

20 regarding the restoration of tenancy rights or property.

21 There are cases when something was taken away from an apartment;

22 the furniture may be missing, all of it. But each tenant or holder of

23 tenancy rights, as he has a document from the municipality showing what

24 his belongings were, he may seek, through the court, compensation for

25 those goods. Now, whether there are any cases in court, and how many, I'm

Page 12803

1 really unable to say. I don't know.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll move on to another subject.

3 A minute ago you said in response to a question put to you that there were

4 humanitarian organisations present, and you mentioned a number of them.

5 But if I've understood you correctly, you had no contact of any kind with

6 these humanitarian organisations. Isn't that paradoxical, given that

7 you're a member of the civil protection? You were waiting for aid that

8 might arrive from charitable organisations, and yet you say that you had

9 no contact with them. Could you elaborate on your answer, which I find

10 very confusing.

11 A. Well, look, the Merhamet, Caritas, and Dobrotvor organisations,

12 the humanitarian organisations that belonged to three different ethnic

13 groups, the town was under blockade and those humanitarian organisations

14 were to take care of their people. But given the blockade of the town,

15 they did not have any food supplies. They couldn't help them. The UNHCR

16 and the International Red Cross had instructed us to distribute the food

17 that we received to refugees and displaced persons alone, and we were to

18 provide them with lists of these people. They controlled the goods we

19 distributed on a daily basis.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Your answer presents two

21 problems. You said that there were three humanitarian organisations,

22 Merhamet, Caritas, and Dobrotvor. And according to the English

23 translation, you said that they took care of certain ethnic groups. Could

24 you tell us which ethnic groups they took care of.

25 A. Merhamet took care of the Bosniaks; Caritas is a humanitarian

Page 12804

1 organisation for the Croats, for Catholics; and Dobrotvor was a

2 humanitarian organisation for Serbs, for those of the Orthodox faith.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You have now

4 clarified that matter.

5 And the second problem that arises is that you said that you would

6 act in accordance with the instructions issued by the refugee committee or

7 the International Red Cross. Were you completely dependent on these two

8 international organisations? Could you explain this us and provide us

9 with some examples? Because this is the first time we have heard of this.

10 A. The UNHCR had its rules and standards, and this organisation

11 obtained the greatest amount of food for refugees and displaced persons.

12 After food was distributed in Travnik, and given the number of refugees,

13 the UNHCR stated how much food should be distributed to one person. And

14 on the basis of these criteria, we provided food for, for example, a

15 family that consisted of four members. We compiled these lists, and it

16 was our duty to return these lists to the UNHCR. It was on the basis of

17 these lists that they would come to check on a daily basis whether the

18 people concerned had received the goods as stated in the list.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as far as the Red Cross is

20 concerned, what sort of relations did you have with the Red Cross?

21 A. Well, they operated in a slightly different way. It was easier

22 for us. The International Red Cross had parcels for various individuals,

23 so it was easier for us to distribute them. We didn't have to weigh the

24 food, pour drinks into containers, et cetera. So, for example, a family

25 of five members would receive five parcels of that kind. And our

Page 12805

1 cooperation with the International Red Cross was very good.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think that the

3 other Judges have some questions for you.

4 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Witness, as commander of the

5 civil protection staff, how many employees did you have under you, more or

6 less?

7 A. Well, perhaps about 700.

8 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Did you receive daily reports

9 on what happened in your -- or what was happening in your region, reports

10 that came from members of the civil protection?

11 A. Yes, on the whole, if it was possible to send such reports from

12 the field, I would receive them. This was the case if there was no

13 combat.

14 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] When the Croats left their

15 houses, you would agree with me that there was looting and that property

16 was destroyed.

17 A. Yes, absolutely.

18 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] You agree with that. Members

19 of the civil protection staff, did they provide you with reports on this

20 looting, on incidents of theft? Would you receive such reports from

21 civilian protection staff?

22 A. Yes, they forwarded reports stating that property was being looted

23 on a large scale. This involved a lot of people. A lot of people entered

24 these abandoned houses and looted the houses.

25 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] So were they actually able to

Page 12806

1 see the people who were involved in this looting?

2 A. Well, of course.

3 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Did they mention the names of

4 these individuals in the reports that they forwarded to you?

5 A. Well, look --

6 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Did they mention the names of

7 the people who were involved in the looting in their reports?

8 A. No, they didn't mention their names because they didn't know who

9 these people were. They didn't know them. There were people who had come

10 from all over the place.

11 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] So since you had these

12 reports, what did you do? What steps did you take?

13 A. Well, at the same time we would move people into abandoned houses,

14 and we tried to save whatever could be saved.

15 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] But did you contact the police

16 to conduct an investigation, either the civilian or the military police?

17 Didn't you inform the police?

18 A. Well, look, the police was already present in the field. Early in

19 the morning the police went out into the field, both the civilian and the

20 military police. They tried to take steps to prevent these incidents.

21 And civilians were banned from moving around that zone, so the army and

22 the police had issued such orders. Strangers were not allowed to move

23 around those abandoned areas, apart from members of the civil protection.

24 However, the police and the army cannot block or cut off an entire village

25 and prevent anyone from entering or leaving. So if a stampede of 500

Page 12807

1 individuals enter one village, well, you can imagine what members of the

2 civil protection or three policemen could do in such a case. It was very

3 difficult to witness such events. I saw a woman who was 60 years old and

4 she was carry 25 kilos of flour; she could barely walk. The woman was

5 basically hungry. And even if they had tried to take that flour, that bag

6 of flour from her, well, it would have been very difficult to do that, you

7 know.

8 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] So you say that the police

9 were already present in the area. Did they arrest the individuals who

10 were involved in looting? Was any follow-on action taken? Were the

11 police investigations followed up?

12 A. The police had blocked all the entries. The dirt roads and the

13 asphalt roads to the villages had been blocked. There were police

14 checkpoints, and people would be checked when entering or leaving. But

15 these people would find new routes of access. You know, in Bosnia, there

16 are people who are still coming in and going out. We can't prevent this.

17 And how could the civil protection or five policemen prevent someone from

18 entering a village? It was very difficult. There were a lot of people.

19 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] If a house was in an isolated

20 area and only members of the civilian protection had seen the individuals

21 involved in looting, if the police wasn't aware, you were aware of the

22 fact because you had seen their report. If we imagine such a case, what

23 would you do? You wouldn't contact the police? If the police wasn't

24 aware of the fact and you were the only body aware of what had happened,

25 what would you do in such a case?

Page 12808

1 A. Well, that happened in one village, in fact. But by the time the

2 police had reached the village from the checkpoint, there was no one left

3 in the village. The people had fled through the forest, with their food.

4 They didn't find them there. So when the police returned to the

5 checkpoint, they probably returned, these looters probably returned to the

6 village. Looting occurred especially at night, when it wasn't possible to

7 see anyone. They could pass through checkpoints without being noticed, et

8 cetera. So it was during the night that this occurred most frequently.

9 JUDGE RASOAZANANY: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have one question that relates

11 to a question that was just put to you. It appears that you yourself

12 witnessed an incident. You mentioned a woman who was carrying a bag of

13 flour, a sack of flour. So can you confirm this: You ourselves actually

14 witnessed a looting incident, and if so, where was it, where did this take

15 place, and do you remember the date?

16 A. Well, as far as I remember, on that day I had set off to see my

17 parents, and they in fact lived there. As I was driving by, I saw this

18 very old woman who was carrying a sack of flour. I couldn't really say

19 whether it was her sack of flour, but I saw that and I just wanted to

20 mention this example because it's a very sad scene, when you see an old

21 woman carrying such a sack of flour because she just wants to survive, she

22 doesn't want to starve to death. I found that very sad.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 JUDGE SWART: Good morning, witness. To pursue the discussion on

25 the activities to prevent them, to repress looting, you said this morning

Page 12809

1 also about resettling new persons in abandoned houses. This was a measure

2 to protect the houses. These new inhabitants could keep a watch on the

3 village, "and they would report to us and we could then inform the

4 competent authorities." That's a quote from page 40 of the transcript.

5 I think I know what you meant by using the expression "competent

6 authorities," but could you tell us for the record what you meant by that?

7 A. Well, on the whole I was referring to the police. We had the

8 phone number of the police and we would contact them and inform them that,

9 at that point in time, in such and such a place, looting was going on.

10 Civilian protection members were women; they couldn't prevent this, they

11 couldn't get involved in a dispute, and they couldn't take away the goods

12 that had been stolen. So on each occasion, the police would go into the

13 field.

14 JUDGE SWART: And if, in this context, you talk about the police,

15 you're talking about the civilian police, I suppose? Or have there also

16 been cases in which you provided the information to the military police,

17 perhaps?

18 A. As far as securing buildings is concerned, as far as securing

19 property is concerned, it wasn't our duty to inform the military police.

20 They were responsible for something else. It was the civilian police's

21 duty to protect the civilian population, and to protect me as the

22 commander of the civil protection as well as my property.

23 JUDGE SWART: A few weeks ago we had a colleague from your

24 organisation, Mustafa Hokic here in the courtroom. I suppose you know

25 him. You do?

Page 12810

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE SWART: When he was aware, we got different reports from the

3 civil protection staff, among them some reports on the destruction and

4 burning of houses in the municipality of Travnik. And it struck me that

5 there was an attempt made in some of these reports to reconstruct the

6 causes of a housing having burned down. If there were indications that

7 this might have been a criminal act, would you send such a report to the

8 civilian police or to other authorities?

9 A. Absolutely. Absolutely. That was our task. We had to inform the

10 civilian police about what had happened in the field, and that was the

11 task of the commissioners. They were to monitor everything and inform

12 them what had happened, especially if anything unusual had happened.

13 JUDGE SWART: Thank you. I have two questions on the reports

14 relating to the documents.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

16 JUDGE SWART: I have two questions on the documents that have been

17 shown to you this morning. I'm sorry. Again, I have two questions to put

18 to you on the documents that were shown to you this morning. The first

19 one is the document number 4, and it has the number 1302. I would like to

20 ask you a question on the second linea, second sentence of that linea. Do

21 you have it before you?

22 A. Yes, I do.

23 JUDGE SWART: "Apart from a property inventory record, none of the

24 people housed were issued a temporary housing decision, because this staff

25 is not competent to issue such a decision." What you told us this morning

Page 12811

1 seemed to imply that there were competent to take decisions on housing

2 people in abandoned houses. This might contradict what you said, so I'm

3 just asking for some clarification, how I should understand this phrase.

4 Could you give me an answer?

5 A. The civil protection, through its commissioners and lower level

6 staffs, would move certain persons into a certain house, make a report

7 about the owner of the house, and make an inventory list, as well as the

8 auxiliary buildings, and all the other information would be taken from the

9 people moving in. And their duty was to make a report about this move,

10 and all these things had to be inserted.

11 The report had to be in three copies; one was given to the person

12 who was moved into the house to live there, one went to the civil

13 protection staff, and a third was given to the government so that the

14 competent authority for housing should issue a decision on the temporary

15 occupation of that apartment, because that was the only body that had the

16 authority to issue such certificates.

17 JUDGE SWART: Thank you. My next question is on the document that

18 has the number 1566, the third page. There is a Roman IV on the third

19 page on the "Evacuation and Sheltering of Endangered and Suffering

20 Population," and in the second linea, you mention almost 28.000

21 individuals being sheltered in the area of Travnik; some 2.000 were

22 accommodated in collective centres and some 25.000 in private homes.

23 Now, you talked before about private homes, abandoned private

24 homes being used to find a place for displaced persons. Could you give an

25 estimate of how many of these 25 or so private homes were abandoned houses

Page 12812

1 just to give us an idea of the quantity of the phenomena?

2 A. A certain number of refugees were put up in private homes, but a

3 certain number of them found accommodation with relatives; another group

4 had the resources to rent places; then some stayed with friends. So the

5 figure regarding collective centres were living in conditions that were

6 really not deemed for man. The rest of the refugees moved into these

7 abandoned homes.

8 JUDGE SWART: So it's hard to say; is that your answer?

9 A. It is very hard, because, you know, these are living beings and

10 the numbers change. And it is very difficult to have such figures.

11 People were coming and going all the time.

12 JUDGE SWART: A related question I had, but perhaps that also is

13 impossible to answer, is how many houses, abandoned houses in the area

14 where the fighting was in June 1993, Guca Gora, et cetera, all these

15 places in the community of Travnik, how many houses, abandoned houses,

16 would be used to resettle people in that period? Can you give us an

17 estimate? Was it systematic? Was it sporadic? Tell me anything you know

18 about it.

19 A. It was many years ago. I knew the figures by heart if you were to

20 ask me in the middle of the night, but I find it very awkward to give you

21 a figure now in court. But anyway, every house that had the minimum

22 conditions for living, if it just had a roof - only those without roofs or

23 windows were not moved into - the rest were. And also the houses that

24 were far from the city, because refugees didn't wish to travel a lot, they

25 wanted to be close to town.

Page 12813

1 JUDGE SWART: So as a rule, they were used to resettle people.

2 I'm aware of those exceptions. Is that a fair conclusion?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 JUDGE SWART: My last question is about the humanitarian

5 organisations. You mentioned three different organisations, one Bosnian,

6 one Croat, and one Serb. The Merhamet organisation, was that a local

7 organisation or a foreign organisation, or a mixture of both? That is a

8 question that has been put to you but we haven't yet heard an answer on

9 it.

10 A. Merhamet was founded in Sarajevo, and that is where its

11 headquarters are, in the captain of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And it has its

12 branch offices, one of which is in Travnik. I think they're called

13 municipal boards. The composition of Merhamet, that is, the composition

14 of the managers, are exclusively Bosniaks. But the beneficiaries are not

15 only Bosniaks. Canteens that they organised were used by Bosniaks and

16 Croats and Serbs and Romanies and Albanians and the rest.

17 JUDGE SWART: The word "Merhamet," is that a Bosnian word or an

18 Arabic word? And what does it mean, by the way?

19 A. I don't know Arabic, but Merhamet means aid, in my view, aid to

20 those in need. Because when we say of somebody that he is Merhametli, it

21 means that he's a person who wants to be helpful, kind.

22 JUDGE SWART: Thank you very much.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Still on this issue of the

24 Merhamet. If I understand you correctly, the term "Merhamet" is a Bosniak

25 term; in your language, it means charitable or kind?

Page 12814

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 12815

1 A. My mother, when I was 7 years old, said to me, Son, you must be

2 Merhametli, and my understanding of it was that I should be a good man,

3 help others, and that is why I take special satisfaction that in this war

4 I was Merhametli, I helped people.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the Merhamet organisation

6 that had a branch office in Travnik, what was its address? Do you know

7 the address of the organisation?

8 A. It was close by, in the center of town. It had its offices in two

9 or three places, because they were probably doing something, cooking and

10 the like. But I can tell you that as I'm now working in Travnik

11 municipality, I want 5 marks to be deducted from my salary every month as

12 membership fees for Merhamet, because there are still people in Travnik

13 who are short of food. So I am glad to renounce 5 marks a month to feed

14 someone.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the time, my understanding

16 was that you had no contact with them. Are you confirming that you had no

17 contact with them?

18 A. Yes, I can confirm that I didn't have any contact with them,

19 because there was no need. I was doing something quite different. I had

20 a great deal of things to do, and I couldn't take care of the residents as

21 well. That would be too much.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the light of what you just

23 said, will you look at document number 9, please, page 4.10. It's a

24 document that you signed. And paragraph 10, I will translate into French

25 what it says in English:

Page 12816

1 "Organising humanitarian and other actions in the municipality."

2 And I'm still translating.

3 "The civil protection municipal staff initiated and launched a

4 series of humanitarian actions."

5 And I continue on page 5, again, from your pen you say:

6 "In cooperation with the Basbunar --"

7 What is that, please?

8 A. It is the public utility enterprise, responsible for cleaning the

9 town and providing the population with water.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. Under chapter 11, headed

11 "Cooperation," could you read what you wrote about cooperation. Read it

12 out in your own language, this paragraph, the first paragraph under the

13 heading "Cooperation."

14 A. "In order to carry out planned activities and tasks, the civil

15 protection municipal staff of Travnik cooperated closely with

16 international humanitarian organisations, local organisations, competent

17 state organs, and military unit commands."

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Isn't there a contradiction

19 there between the question I put to you a moment ago when you said, "I

20 never saw any of the Merhamet people; we had no communication."? And here

21 you say that you cooperated fully with all the humanitarian organisations.

22 How can you explain that contradiction between what is written here and

23 what you just told us? For anyone reading, and that is why I asked you to

24 read it, gets the impression that, according to this paragraph, you were

25 fully cooperating with international organisations, the Red Cross, et

Page 12817

1 cetera, but also with local humanitarian organisations, so certainly the

2 three, Caritas, Dobrotvor and Merhamet. Is there a contradiction, or is

3 this a printing error? Because I'm trying to understand what you're

4 saying from the point of view of credibility, but I see a contradiction

5 there.

6 A. Your Honour, Mr. President, I am sorry that you appear to have a

7 poor translation. It says "organisations in the municipality," not

8 "humanitarian." It may be a mistranslation. There are many

9 organisations; there are work organisations and so on. It doesn't say

10 "humanitarian organisations" here.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you read once again in

12 your own language the first paragraph.

13 A. Yes.

14 "In order to carry out planned activities and tasks, the civil

15 protection municipal staff of Travnik cooperated closely with

16 international and local humanitarian organisations, competent state

17 organs, and military unit commands."

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So in your own language, there's

19 obvious mention of humanitarian organisations, both international and

20 local. The purpose of my question was to see whether there were links

21 between civilian protection in Travnik and the Merhamet humanitarian

22 organisation, and you said no, because you did not meet with them. Is

23 that what you're still confirming? Is that what you're saying?

24 A. I can't deny that. I can't say that I never met and saw these

25 people from all these organisations. And when speaking about humanitarian

Page 12818

1 organisations, I wish to speak about all three and not just Merhamet.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So now you're telling us that

3 you did meet with them. So if you met with them, what was the name of the

4 person in charge of Merhamet? It must have been somebody of some

5 importance.

6 A. I do know. His name was Mustafa Indjic. I do know that. And for

7 Caritas, it was Don Pavo, and Dobrotvor, I think his name was Djoko, or

8 something like that. I'm not sure.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] These humanitarian organisations

10 which, as you told us, provided food and certain consumer goods, to the

11 best of your knowledge, where did their finances come from? Have you any

12 idea of who financed them, how they were financed?

13 A. Believe me, I don't know who financed them at the time. I said a

14 moment ago that, just now, I am a member of Merhamet and I am paying a

15 membership fee. But I know many friends of mine who are also members of

16 Caritas and Dobrotvor, et cetera. These are humanitarian organisations

17 whose task is to assist. I never inquired into the business policies of

18 Merhamet or any of the others.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just a final question which

20 comes to mind just now, following what you've just said. The food they

21 gave, did they buy it on the spot or was it coming from the outside? The

22 food, was it being brought in from outside or was it purchased on the

23 spot, from local peasants? To the best of your knowledge, where did the

24 food come from?

25 A. I think there may have been both, but I'm not sure. I do know

Page 12819

1 that in my village, the village I was born in, they did purchase a certain

2 amount of potatoes from the peasants. Now, whether there was some from

3 outside, I'm not sure. Possibly.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And when they were buying these

5 goods, was it paid in German marks, in local currency, in American

6 dollars? Do you know how they paid for this?

7 A. I think they issued coupons. We had coupons. We didn't have a

8 currency at first, we just had coupons.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So they paid for what they

10 purchased with coupons.

11 A. That was the means of payment, not just for Merhamet. I would buy

12 cigarettes with coupons too.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is 12.30. We're going to

14 have our technical break now, and we will resume at about five to 1.00. I

15 will give the floor to the Prosecution for any questions stemming from the

16 Judges' questions, and of course I will give the floor to the Defence as

17 well.

18 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 12.58 p.m.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you may take the

21 floor.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Further cross-examination by Mr. Mundis:

24 Q. I have a few questions that arose out of the Judges questions to

25 you. The first one concerns the notion of, I believe as you put it,

Page 12820

1 sanitising the battlefield, that is, collecting the bodies following any

2 combat or any other type of action. I would like to ask you, sir, if at

3 any point around the 9th of June, 1993, the Travnik municipal civil

4 protection staff was involved in any way in collecting bodies from the

5 area around Milena and Bikosi.

6 A. Well, I can't remember such an event. If the terrain was being

7 cleaned up, then my men were probably involved in the operation. There

8 was no one else to do it.

9 Q. Well, let me ask you, then, in light of that answer, to the best

10 of your recollection, during the period, say, June 1993, were units of the

11 ABiH ever involved in clearing up the battlefield or clearing up an area

12 where combat or fighting had taken place?

13 A. It was the civilian protection alone that cleared up the terrain

14 and removed the dead bodies and the dead animals. Our purpose was to

15 ensure that no infectious diseases spread. Our purpose was to prevent

16 epidemics of any kind.

17 Q. Also, in response to a question from one of the Judges, you told

18 us that Travnik was the first, I think you used the term, "free city," and

19 the first place where refugees started to return -- yes, people who left

20 had began to return. Were you referring, sir, to Croats, Bosnian Croats?

21 A. Yes. Not just to Croats, to Serbs, too.

22 Q. To your recollection, sir, when did those Croats and Serbs begin

23 returning to Travnik, municipality, I mean?

24 A. I think that they started returning immediately after the

25 Washington agreement had been signed, after the cessation of hostilities,

Page 12821

1 in other words. And we have, from the international community, a

2 certificate on being an open town. It's recognition for -- a form of

3 recognition for everything we did to ensure that people could return to

4 their homes.

5 Q. Now, sir, if you can, can you give us an approximate number of

6 Croats and Serbs who returned to Travnik municipality?

7 A. I couldn't provide you with any numbers right now, but in terms of

8 percentages, about 70 per cent of Croats, or perhaps even 80 per cent of

9 Croats, returned. Maybe about 50 per cent of the Serbs returned.

10 Everyone could return, but unfortunately some people went to Scandinavia,

11 to parts of the world across the ocean, and they probably won't return.

12 On the whole it was the elderly and those who had no where else to go who

13 returned.

14 Q. Finally, sir, you responded, again to a question from one of the

15 Judges, that some of the refugees, and now, sir, I'm talking about Bosniak

16 refugees who came from other parts of Bosnia into Travnik municipality,

17 you said that some of those refugees had the resources to rent houses. Do

18 you recall saying that?

19 A. That's what I said, yes.

20 Q. Can you be a little more specific in terms of who those people

21 rented the houses from?

22 A. Well, there were various cases. People from Krajina who had been

23 wealthy, they managed to bring some money from them. But since the

24 accommodation provided in collective centres wasn't very nice, they

25 decided to use the money to rent a flat or a house. In some cases, they

Page 12822

1 would rent accommodation from Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks. It depended on

2 who was letting such a flat. On the whole it was Bosniaks who let flats.

3 In some cases, a Bosniak would send his family out of the town and remain

4 alone. And if that Bosniak had a big flat, he might decide to let two

5 rooms.

6 Q. Do you recall any instances where the Bosniak refugees were

7 renting flats or renting property from the Croats who left?

8 A. Of course there were such cases, many such cases. They would rent

9 houses, too. Before the Croats left, there were quite a few Bosniaks who

10 lived in Croatian houses. And when the Croats left, they remained, the

11 Bosniaks remained in those houses. My commissioners in the field, when

12 they came to see who had moved in, they saw that these people had valid

13 papers that had been given to them by the owners of the houses, papers

14 stating that they had the right to live there.

15 Q. Sir, were you aware of cases where the Croats who had abandoned

16 their property were renting -- basically what I'm saying is that the

17 Croats who left, were those houses then put into the rental market?

18 A. They weren't rented, they were moved into. Who would have rented

19 them? They weren't let. Who would have let them? In certain cases, if

20 there were two brothers and one left and the other remained, in such a

21 case, the brother who had remained would let the house belonging to the

22 brother who had left. There were such cases.

23 Q. Thank you, sir.

24 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 12823

1 Defence counsel.

2 Further re-examination by Ms. Residovic:

3 Q. [Interpretation] I'd like to go back to some of the questions that

4 the Chamber put to you. You were asked about your cooperation with

5 international humanitarian organisations. In order to be quite clear,

6 could you tell me, who was the civil protection was responsible for as far

7 as providing them with accommodation and food?

8 A. They were responsible for refugees and displaced persons.

9 Q. Since you have already spoken about the difficult situation that

10 the local population was in, and this can be seen in some of your

11 documents, too, tell me who the local humanitarian organisations cared for

12 on the whole. You mentioned three organisations, Merhamet, Caritas, and

13 Dobrotvor.

14 A. Yes. They took care of the local population.

15 Q. Given the different categories of people that you and the local

16 humanitarian organisations took care of, was that the reason for which

17 your contact with the local humanitarian organisations were not as

18 frequent as the contact you had with international humanitarian

19 organisations?

20 A. Yes, that's the main reason.

21 Q. In addition to these three local humanitarian organisations that

22 you have mentioned, could you tell me whether there was a local municipal

23 committee of the Red Cross in Travnik?

24 A. Yes, there was a local municipal Red Cross committee.

25 Q. Was there a Jewish organisation, a Jewish humanitarian

Page 12824

1 organisation, the name of which was La Benavolencija?

2 A. I'm not sure. I couldn't answer that.

3 Q. Tell me, although you have already spoken about this in response

4 to a question put to you by the Chamber, in the case of Merhamet, Caritas,

5 Dobrotvor, and the Red Cross, in the case of these local organisations,

6 who were the people who were their members? Were the staff of these

7 operations local inhabitants or were they foreigners, perhaps?

8 A. As far as I know, in all three humanitarian organisations, the

9 leadership consisted of people from Travnik alone. They weren't from the

10 wide area; they came from the town of Travnik itself.

11 Q. The Chamber was interested in the meaning of the word "Merhamet."

12 Could you tell us whether Merhamet is originally a Turkish word, or is it

13 a word the origins of which are different?

14 A. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I would say that Merhamet would sooner

15 be a Turkish word rather than an Arab word.

16 Q. You said you didn't know the exact meaning of this word, but you

17 said that you knew the meaning such as it was used -- the meaning of the

18 word such as it was used by your mother. Tell me, is Caritas a local word

19 or is it derived from some other foreign language?

20 A. Well, I would say that Caritas is derived from the Latin language,

21 although I don't speak Latin, I don't know Latin.

22 Q. Is the word "Caritas" the word that our people usually use, and do

23 the people know what the meaning of this word is?

24 A. Well, I know what the meaning of the word is, but I don't believe

25 that most of the citizens know what Caritas means, although they have

Page 12825

1 heard this word. They know that Caritas is a voluntary humanitarian

2 organisation, but as to the actual meaning of the word "Caritas," to be

3 quite frank, I myself am not quite sure of this.

4 Q. In order to help the Trial Chamber, could you tell us whether

5 Dobrotvor and Crveni Krst, the Red Cross, are local Slav words, and

6 everyone knows the meaning of these words?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Could you help the Trial Chamber with regard to certain linguistic

9 difficulties. Given the historical development of our language, would you

10 say that there are many foreign words, words that come from the Turkish

11 language, from the German language, from Romance languages, and this

12 depended on the period during which we were occupied by Turks -- the

13 Turks, the Austrians, the Italians, et cetera. In other words, that come

14 from these languages which have become local words, and we all know what

15 the meaning of these words are although we can't translate them.

16 A. Yes. And there are certain words of that kind that we use every

17 day, on a daily basis, in spite of the fact that we might not know the

18 meaning.

19 Q. Could you help us to understand something else. I asked you

20 whether in the Serbian language there are many words that come from the

21 Arab -- the Arab language and the Turkish language. Would you say that

22 Serbs also use such foreign words?

23 A. Well, I think that the Serbs use just as many foreign words of

24 that kind as the Bosniaks.

25 Q. So when we speak about organisations such as Merhamet and Caritas,

Page 12826

1 we believe that these are local words, the meaning of which is familiar to

2 us, and we don't find it strange to see that certain organisations have

3 such names.

4 A. Yes, exactly, and especially since these organisations are

5 humanitarian organisations, so the translation of these terms would have

6 something to do with humanitarian affairs.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Let's now show the witness DH29,

9 Defence Exhibit DH29.

10 Q. Mr. Konjalic, we have a newspaper here, and this is a decree law

11 on defence that you have referred to, and this law regulates the

12 responsibilities of the civilian protection as well. Is this the decree

13 law that you referred to?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. The Chamber asked you about the structure of those units and about

16 the names used, so could we have a look at Article 50 in this decree law.

17 And could you read out paragraph 2 in this article.

18 Have you found Article 50?

19 A. Article 50, paragraph 2:

20 "In the units of the civilian protection staff, there should be no

21 individuals serving in the armed forces; workers of the MUP, and

22 policemen; pregnant women and single parents who have children who are

23 under two years of age, or two children over ten; members of KP Doms; and

24 people who are not fit to serve in civilian protection."

25 Q. On the basis of this decree law, can we see that members of the

Page 12827

1 civilian protection staff or civilian protection units couldn't be members

2 of the armed forces?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Mr. Konjalic, is it quite clear from what you have read out that

5 you, in fact, had nothing to do with the organisation of military defence?

6 A. Absolutely.

7 Q. Have a look at page 10 in this decree law, and under number 4.

8 Could you read out the titles that you have there. There's Roman number

9 IV, and then we have the numbers 1 and 2. The article concerned is

10 Article 62.

11 A. Article 62.

12 Q. But could you read the title above the article, the heading? What

13 does this regulate?

14 A. "The civilian activity and the organisation of military defence,

15 joint provisions."

16 Q. And above Article 64?

17 A. "The armed forces."

18 Q. In this part, is there a reference made at any point to the

19 civilian protection?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Could you now have a look at the title under number 5.

22 A. Number 5?

23 Q. It's above Article 70.

24 A. "The civilian activity and the organisation of the civilian

25 defence."

Page 12828

1 Q. Could you tell me whether this is part of the defence within the

2 civilian sector? And you said that civilian protection was part of this,

3 too.

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Could you read out Article 71.

6 A. "Within the framework of civilian defence, the following elements

7 should be organised and developed: Civilian protection as a system of

8 protection and a system for saving; monitoring service and an intelligence

9 service; encryptographic measures, apart from the needs of commanding

10 armed forces; planning training apart from members of the armed forces;

11 and protection of companies and other legal entities."

12 Q. What is the title after that?

13 A. The title that follows is "Civilian Protection."

14 Q. And does the entire text that follows explain all the tasks and

15 the measures and the way in which the civilian protection operated, the

16 civilian protection force that you were in in 1992 and 1993?

17 A. Yes, exactly. This is a section that refers to the civilian

18 protection of which I was a commander.

19 Q. In Article 71, we also have the service of observation and

20 information. Tell me, is that also a component part of civil defence and

21 a component part of the civilian organs of authority in Bosnia-Herzegovina

22 and Travnik?

23 A. Yes, it is a component part of civil defence.

24 Q. This service of observation and information, did it have

25 round-the-clock duty, and did it collect information about everything that

Page 12829

1 might be of significance for the civil defence as a whole?

2 A. Yes. They had duty round the clock throughout the duration of the

3 aggression, from the beginning of the war until the end of the war. And

4 even today, this service of observation and information is still active,

5 because of various reports of fires and the like.

6 Q. In view of your numerous tasks that Their Honours have asked you

7 about regarding the clearing up of the terrain, and your reaction when you

8 learnt of looting and burning of buildings, this service for observation

9 and information, was it the first competent body which should have

10 informed you that something was happening in a certain area that the civil

11 protection had to react to?

12 A. They did so usually with the help of sirens, and we knew exactly

13 when there was the beginning of danger from the air, the end of such

14 danger, or any other disaster, such as a fire. So we could tell which it

15 was on the basis of the different sirens.

16 Q. Within the civilian defence, did you cooperate directly with this

17 observation and information service?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And within the framework of that, did you act in accordance with

20 your resources and assignments?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And my last question is linked to the question put to you by

23 Her Honour, when you informed the civilian police that there was looting

24 of property, as a citizen of Travnik, Do you know that the perpetrators

25 of crimes who were discovered, whose identity was established, were they

Page 12830

1 processed, prosecuted, and sentenced?

2 A. As far as I know, there are quite a number of them that have been

3 processed. Some of them were reported by the civil protection and some

4 other bodies. Now, what the outcome of those trials was, whether they

5 were sentenced or not, I don't know. Some of them may be ongoing. But if

6 it was possible, without any doubt, to establish somebody's identity and

7 the crime he committed, reports were filed against him.

8 Q. Thank you, witness.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team?

11 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, we have no questions arising from the

12 questions Your Honours posed. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, your hearing has been

14 completed. On behalf of the Chamber, I wish to thank you for coming to

15 The Hague to testify. You have answered all the questions put to you both

16 by the Defence and the Prosecution, and the Judges. We wish you a safe

17 journey home, and we hope you will continue your activities in the

18 civilian protection with success.

19 Could the usher be kind enough to accompany you out of the

20 courtroom.

21 [The witness stands down]

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has four documents

23 to tender, I think.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you, Mr. President. We

25 would like to tender into exhibit 1537, 1540, 1541, and 1566, as these are

Page 12831

1 documents which the witness himself compiled or signed, and documents he

2 was aware of in 1993.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution.

4 MR. MUNDIS: No objection, Mr. President.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we have four

6 numbers, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] They are admitted under the

8 following numbers: DH1537, English version 1537/E; DH1540, the English

9 version DH1540/E; DH1541, English version 1541/E; and finally, DH1566, and

10 the English version 1566/E. Thank you, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. We take note of

12 those exhibit numbers.

13 In the few minutes remaining, I would like to make a correction

14 linked to a translation problem. In the oral ruling that we rendered on

15 the question of new documents, I wish to draw the attention of the parties

16 to the fact that the French version, on page 12524, lines 5 to 9, and the

17 English version of this paragraph is page 15524, lines 22, 23, 24, and 25.

18 In the English version there is an error in relation to the French

19 version. In French, the following was stated, and I read:

20 "Stemming from this principle, the Prosecution cannot produce

21 within the framework of its cross-examination of a Defence witness new

22 exhibits which have not already been admitted with a view to strengthening

23 the Prosecution case, or to introduce new elements regarding the criminal

24 responsibility of the accused."

25 So this paragraph clearly indicates that the Prosecution cannot

Page 12832

1 produce new documents during the cross-examination of a Defence witness.

2 And in the English version, beginning with line 22, in English it

3 says:

4 [In English] "As a result of this principle the Prosecution can

5 only present in the course of its cross-examination of a witness ..."

6 [Interpretation] So that in the translation, it says "can" rather

7 than "cannot," so obviously "cannot" should have been said. So I wish to

8 draw the attention of the Prosecution to this point so that they take note

9 of this correction.

10 From time to time there are errors. We discover them

11 subsequently, and when we discover them, we let you know. But you, too,

12 may discover some. So I wanted to tell you this so that there should be

13 no ambiguity.

14 As you know, we have a witness for tomorrow afternoon, and next

15 week we will be continuing with our sittings, as indicated yesterday and

16 this morning.

17 Are there any other points to be raised? If not -- Mr. Dixon is

18 telling me "no" with his head. I see that there are no other matters to

19 address. I thank you. And please be back here tomorrow for the sitting

20 that will begin at 2.15.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.30 p.m.

22 To be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of

23 December, 2004, at 2.15 p.m.

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