050113ED

Page 14112

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Trial Chamber would like to

2 greet everyone present in the courtroom, members of the Prosecution,

3 Defence counsel, the accused, and everyone else in the courtroom and

4 around the courtroom assisting us in our task. We will be continuing with

5 the hearing of the witness who started with his testimony yesterday.

6 Defence counsel have 15 questions left to put to the witness. I thought

7 they needed 15 minutes, but in fact they need to put 15 additional

8 questions to the witness. I will now ask the usher to call the witness

9 into the courtroom.

10 Mr. Registrar, it might be useful if there is a witness who is

11 testifying for a one-day period, to be prepared in advance.

12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Witness, I just want to make

14 sure that everything is functioning properly.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you well now.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The Trial Chamber

17 greets you and will now give the floor to Defence counsel.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, and good

19 day, Mr. Menzil.

20 WITNESS: SUAD MENZIL [Resumed]

21 [Witness answered through interpreter]

22 Examined by Ms. Residovic: [Continued]

23 Q. [Interpretation] Yesterday you were saying that you visited the

24 civilians who were placed in the gym in the school in Mehurici. You said

25 you did everything to ensure that the conditions they were in was as good

Page 14113

1 as possible. And you also took certain sanitary measures to prevent any

2 diseases from spreading. Do you remember saying that?

3 A. Yes, of course I do.

4 Q. Could you now tell me whether you received any wounded men on that

5 day, and given the fighting, can you remember how many wounded and dead

6 there were in your clinic, if there were any?

7 A. Well, yesterday I was saying that I visited the civilians in the

8 sports hall for a brief period of time, because there was very fierce

9 fighting and there were wounded men who kept arriving. On that day, 69

10 wounded were treated, most of whom were very seriously wounded. There

11 were quite a lot of wounds caused by trip mines, and then there were

12 wounds that were the result of various other weapons. I didn't spend that

13 much time up there. I spent more time in the reception centre, apart from

14 when I went to the place up there and visited them, apart from the 69

15 wounded, there were nine individuals who had been killed and who had been

16 brought to my reception centre.

17 Q. Mr. Menzil, on that day, that night, did you receive any wounded

18 members of the HVO?

19 A. Well, towards the end of the day, when the fighting was no longer

20 that intense, I assume it was about 8.00 in the evening, two members of

21 the HVO in uniform were brought to me by members of the ABiH. I'm not

22 sure who they were, but I could see that they were members of the ABiH,

23 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. And since at the time I was treating

24 one of our wounded, when these two HVO members were brought in, one of

25 them was very seriously wounded, so I postponed the treatment of our

Page 14114

1 wounded man, because the member of the HVO, one of the HVO members, was

2 seriously wounded. We treated him. We did what was possible for us to do

3 then, gave him a drip. And as far as the second wounded HVO member is

4 concerned, he was not so seriously wounded. He was only lightly wounded.

5 When I saw how seriously the other HVO member was wounded, I went

6 to the hospital in Zenica with an escort with him. The Mehurici-Zenica

7 road that went by Ovnak was cut off, had been unblocked at the time, so it

8 was easier to reach the hospital. I noticed that the wounded man I've

9 been talking about had been hit by a number of bullets in the peripheral

10 and frontal areas of his body. It was also necessary to give him stitches

11 to stop the bleeding. And although he was able to communicate, he was

12 conscious, you could see that he was very frightened, depressed. So I

13 personally escorted him. I handed him over to Dr. Ana in the hospital in

14 Zenica. She was from Kotor Varos. And since the wounded man said that he

15 would like some members of the clergy to be informed of his condition, I

16 suggested that Ana contact members of the clergy from the hospital in

17 Zenica, and she did that in my presence. I think his name was Zoran or

18 Darko. I'm not sure, though. He was a young man, about 19 years old.

19 Q. Thank you. Mr. Menzil, please tell me: When you returned on the

20 following day, or later on, did you notice that, apart from the civilians

21 who were in the gym, did you notice that there were HVO members who were

22 detained there?

23 A. Yes. Well, after combat had ended on that day, we, as members of

24 the command, because I was a member of the battalion command, I was a

25 medical corps officer, we took stock of the situation, of everything that

Page 14115

1 had happened that day, and we reported from our respective fields at that

2 briefing, at that meeting which took place in the evening, around

3 midnight. I found out that a certain group of HVO members were located

4 somewhere in Mehurici and on the following day I found out the exact

5 location.

6 Q. Mr. Menzil, did you visit them and what sort of a state were they

7 in?

8 A. Well, since they were HVO members and, naturally, the battalion

9 commander made the suggestion, it was my duty to go and see what sort of

10 condition these people were in. They were in a room. I'm not from

11 Mehurici. I'm from Kotor Varos. So I don't know what that room was used

12 for before. But it was not very comfortable. But at that moment in time,

13 it was the most appropriate room they had for providing accommodation for,

14 let's say, the enemy side. This was for the sake of their physical

15 protection and because this area could be protected from extremists who

16 might want to break in and threaten these people.

17 Q. Mr. Menzil, tell me: Who was providing security for the people

18 who were in the sports hall, and who was providing security for the HVO

19 detainees?

20 A. The members of the civilian MUP provided security for the people

21 in the hall, and sports hall, and in this room.

22 Q. I apologise. I put two questions to you, in fact. When you

23 visited the HVO members, what sort of condition were they in in terms of

24 their health? Did you have to treat them or rather did they complain

25 about maltreatment by those who were guarding them?

Page 14116

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

Page 14117

1 A. Well, the first time I visited them, that was the second day after

2 they had been detained. The first time I saw them was to see what sort of

3 physical condition they were in. I wanted to see whether there were any

4 wounded men, whether it was necessary to evacuate, or rather, to transfer

5 some of them to the hospital, given the physical condition they were in at

6 the time. They seemed depressed, afraid. Yet when I spoke to them, when

7 I observed them, I didn't notice any wounded men among them. But one of

8 them did complain about high blood pressure and said that he had been

9 receiving treatment, but at that moment, at that point in time, he didn't

10 have any medicine. I mentioned this problem to a doctor who was there,

11 Dr. Ribic, and we managed to provide this man with a certain form of

12 treatment.

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14118

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 Q. Doctor, tell me: Did the International Red Cross visit the people

4 in the hall and the HVO members during that period of time?

5 A. Yes. A few days later, the International Red Cross appeared on

6 the scene. I don't know whether it's necessary to say that there was a

7 minor incident involving the Arabs when the International Red Cross

8 appeared, they tried to take the flags off the vehicles and erase the

9 symbols of the International Red Cross, but the Red Cross did visit the

10 people in the hall, and they also visited the detained HVO members. They

11 spoke to them. As to what they spoke about, I don't know, but the Red

12 Cross did visit them.

13 Q. And by last question --

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 Q. And finally, Mr. Menzil: When you look back to the conditions

23 that prevailed in June 1993, would you say that you did everything to

24 secure and protect the people who were kept in the sports hall, and did

25 you do the same for the detained HVO members? Did you do everything that

Page 14119

1 you could for them at the time?

2 A. Well, I think that I have already spoken about this, but when I

3 look back to the situation at the time, I think we did all we could, in

4 terms of medical care, in particular. Given the conditions that prevailed

5 at the time, I don't think we could have done anything more for any of

6 them at the time. I don't think we could have provided them with better

7 conditions. I don't know what else we could have done, apart from all

8 things that I have mentioned. Perhaps I have forgotten to mention that

9 the people in the sports hall were provided with beds, so none of them had

10 to sleep on the floor. Some of the soldiers also gave them their sleeping

11 bags. I've also mentioned the food that was provided. They were provided

12 with the necessary sanitary conditions, medical, or rather, hygienic

13 items, soap, washing powder, warm water, hot water, that is. And as far

14 as these other members are concerned, I think there were about 15 of them.

15 We did everything that we could to provide them with decent conditions and

16 to treat them in accordance with the military code of behaviour.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

18 Mr. President, this concludes my examination of the witness.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. The other Defence

20 team, do you have any questions?

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, at this moment,

22 we don't have any questions for this witness.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm turning towards

24 the Prosecution, and I'm giving them the floor for their

25 cross-examination.

Page 14120

1 MR. WAESPI: Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. President.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi:

3 MR. WAESPI: First we would like to distribute just a few -- two

4 documents which I may or may not use during the cross-examination, just

5 for your convenience, Mr. President. One is a copy of a map, which the

6 gentleman might use to show us where he was, and the second one, a

7 document which I might discuss at one time.

8 Q. Good afternoon, Doctor.

9 A. Good afternoon.

10 Q. Let me just -- I'd just like to clarify a few of the points you

11 made yesterday and today so we understand a little bit more what happened

12 during these days. And it's really clarification of the points you made.

13 Let me just start with what you just talked about. That was these

14 detention or whatever we want to call it, of HVO people in one place and

15 the women, children in the other place, in the gym. And I believe that

16 incidents occurred after the 8th of June, 1993. Is that correct?

17 A. No. The incidents themselves were preceded by the specific

18 situation that I spoke about yesterday, and this situation culminated

19 towards the end of April and escalated in -- towards the end of May. And

20 this was the blockade of roads and frequent provocations. At the end of

21 this, there was a blockade of a settlement called Velika Bukovica, where

22 all the civilians were. On several occasions, they sent a courier to the

23 unit that I belonged to, asking for our assistance. They wanted

24 assistance, they wanted help. There was even some alarming reports about

25 people having been killed and burnt already. And when you say

Page 14121

1 "incidents," what do you mean, sir? What do you say when you say after

2 the 8th? What incidents are you referring to?

3 Q. I want to talk about the detention of these people, the women and

4 children in the gym, and the HVO soldiers in that room you talked about.

5 These detentions occurred after the events of the 8th of June, 1993; is

6 that correct?

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to hear what the

8 Defence has to say.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] My learned friend is using the

10 word "detainees" or he says that these people were detained. As far as I

11 can remember, the person never spoke about the civilians being detained.

12 He said that they were accommodated in the gym.

13 MR. WAESPI: That's fine, whatever words you want to describe for

14 pulling people into a room. That's fine. We can use "accommodated."

15 That's okay.

16 Q. But let me talk about the date. When did that sequence of events

17 start? It started on the 8th of June, 1993; is that correct? That the

18 people were put together, accommodated, into these two locations?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned that that evening, I believe, there

21 was a meeting at the brigade -- at the battalion command of -- and I

22 assume you were present at that meeting.

23 A. Yes. But that was very late, around midnight, after the end of

24 those combat activities, when those combat activities subsided to a

25 certain extent.

Page 14122

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

Page 14123

1 Q. And who was present at that meeting, apart from you?

2 A. Other members of the command, the battalion commander was there as

3 well, and I can't remember the names of all those who were present. In

4 any case, those were people who were members of the command of the

5 battalion at the time.

6 Q. And at that time, the battalion was called the 1st Siprage

7 Battalion, or was it already part of the 306th Brigade?

8 A. No, no, no. Yesterday I said that the Siprage Detachment existed

9 until the 22nd of December. On the 25th December, it became the 1st

10 Battalion, 306th mountain brigade.

11 Q. And incidentally, at what time was it transformed into the 27th

12 Brigade?

13 A. On the 15th of August, 1993.

14 Q. Okay. Now, on that evening, during that meeting of the battalion

15 command, who was the battalion commander who attended the meeting?

16 A. You've already asked me that. It was Mr. Mirza Lubenovic.

17 Q. Now, can you briefly tell us what was discussed during that

18 meeting, if you recall.

19 A. Well, we discussed -- I don't know how to put it. We discussed

20 the situation on that day, we discussed our losses, the situation that

21 prevailed after that, and obviously we mentioned civilians and detained

22 members of the HVO who were brought at that moment. On my part, I

23 mentioned the two wounded members of the HVO who were brought to my

24 attention very late that day, and I've already mentioned that, with the

25 knowledge of the battalion commander, I escorted one of those wounded to

Page 14124

1 the hospital.

2 Q. Now, in terms of these HVO soldiers, who suggested or decided, if

3 anybody, that these were to be put into this room? Whose decision was

4 that?

5 A. I don't know. When you look at those situations realistically,

6 when you look at the moment, anybody who had the right of deciding and who

7 was of sound mind and was thinking rationally would have proposed that

8 particular occasion for the accommodation of HVO members and civilians,

9 given their huge number. There was no other, more appropriate room to

10 accommodate that number of people.

11 Q. So again, whose decision was it, if you know?

12 A. I really don't know who was it who made that decision. However,

13 my opinion is that the decision was the right one and appropriate, given

14 the time and circumstances.

15 Q. And are you now talking about putting the HVO people into that

16 room or the civilians into the gym, or are these two separate events? I'm

17 talking about that evening. Did you discuss both the HVO and the

18 civilians, or only one of those two groups of people?

19 A. I'm not talking about the decisions. I'm just sharing my opinion

20 with you, because I was not part of the decision-making process. And I'm

21 talking about both. And I underline, the situation was what it was, and

22 given that situation and the availability of space, and given the

23 necessity to provide security for both these groups, this was the right

24 decision.

25 Q. Now, how many people, women and children, were put into the gym?

Page 14125

1 Do you remember the number?

2 A. No, I can't give you the precise number. There were between 250

3 and 300 people in the gym, I believe.

4 Q. And where was the gym in relation to the battalion command?

5 A. It was in the same building. The building was the school. The

6 battalion command was in the front part of the building and the gym was in

7 a different part of the building. In any case, the two were in the same

8 building, in the building of the school.

9 Q. I know that you said it was the right decision, given the, you

10 know, the location, accommodation in these difficult times, but wasn't it

11 dangerous to put so many people into the same area where the battalion

12 command was working?

13 A. Well, I don't know if it was dangerous to accommodate so many

14 people in the same place where the battalion command was, but the

15 battalion command protected, or tried to provide security for these

16 people. I'm looking at that situation from a practical situation and from

17 the aspect that I have already discussed. Members of the battalion did

18 whatever they could at the time, did everything, went out of our way to

19 help these people and make them feel that they were not classical

20 prisoners, because they were not. We tried to help them, protect them,

21 provide security for them. And at the end of the day, they were protected

22 by the civilian police. The battalion or the command battalion played a

23 role that I've already described in all that.

24 Q. Do you think it was your duty to protect these civilians?

25 A. Of course. Of course I did.

Page 14126

1 Q. Now, let me ask you about the HVO persons. You said, I think,

2 that the second day after they were accommodated, although I believe you

3 said "detained" a moment ago, after they were accommodated in that room,

4 who told you to visit that room?

5 Bless you, my colleague.

6 A. The battalion commander told me to do that. They were members of

7 the military formation, and I, on my hand, was the most responsible in the

8 military corps, and it was only logical for me to look at them and see

9 what their situation was and if there were any proposals, I was duty-bound

10 to share those with my commander. I may have mentioned the word

11 "imprisonment" or -- but it may have been a slip of the tongue, because at

12 that moment, I never -- I didn't see any bars on any of the windows. I

13 did not consider these people to be classical detainees.

14 Q. But if one of these soldiers wanted to leave, could he do that?

15 A. Where? Where would they go?

16 Q. Any place he chose. Back to his troops, for instance.

17 A. They may have expressed that wish to the International Red Cross,

18 which granted that wish. Maybe they said that to the exchange

19 commissions. When these events were taking place in the early days, I

20 don't know where they could go, how could they have expressed a wish to go

21 anywhere. There was nowhere to go.

22 Q. I'm sure you know what the mandate of the ICRC is, don't you?

23 A. Of course I do.

24 Q. What are they doing in their normal course of action, and why did

25 they come to a new area on that day? What's their mandate?

Page 14127

1 A. Primarily to help resolve the situation at hand and to help people

2 at the moment when they feel helpless and to deal with the problems of

3 prisoners of war, of detainees, to help them with their further care. So

4 I would say that their main -- their exclusive role is a humanitarian one.

5 Q. Don't you agree with me that the purpose they came to your area --

6 I'm sorry. You want to say something?

7 A. No, no. No.

8 Q. So would you agree with me that the purpose the ICRC was to come

9 to your area was in fact to check what happened to these people, to fulfil

10 what you described as their exclusive role? Wouldn't you agree with me?

11 A. Of course I would.

12 Q. Let me just wind up this part. You mentioned that two HVO

13 soldiers were brought to you by ABiH soldiers, for you, to be treated, and

14 you mentioned the name of one of these soldiers, and I believe you managed

15 to bring him to the Zenica hospital. Do you remember the name of the

16 second person, the second soldier?

17 A. No, I can't. It was a long time ago. There were a lot of wounded

18 people. My memory is rather good; however, on that day, I saw 69 wounded.

19 It was a very strenuous, very long day. I'm not even sure whether this

20 person that I escorted to Zenica, whether his name is -- was Zoran or

21 Darko. I know that he was young, that he was seriously wounded. I already

22 described what kind of wounds he had sustained. I thought it was normal

23 for me to escort him, due to his condition. I tried to talk to him, but

24 the only thing he asked me to do for him is to inform a member of the

25 clergy. Maybe he hoped that that person would help him continue his

Page 14128

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

Page 14129

1 medical treatment somewhere in Croatia. I'm really not sure why.

2 As for the other one, the one who was not so seriously wounded, I

3 didn't know what to do with him, whether to find him a bed in the

4 out-patients' clinic, in the school. But finally, I decided to send him

5 to the gym. (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 MR. WAESPI:

9 Q. Can you tell me the name of the hospital in Zenica you brought

10 this person to?

11 A. It is now called the Cantonal Hospital. It's the only hospital in

12 Zenica. At that moment I believe that it was the clinical centre of

13 Zenica. At that time, it was, and it still is, the only hospital in

14 Zenica.

15 Q. And Dr. Ana, that's her first name or her last name, the doctor

16 who --

17 A. That is her first name. She is a native of Kotor Varos. I came

18 across her. I just happened to come across her and I asked her to help

19 this person.

20 Q. Now, let me turn back, still remain on the 8th of June, 1993, but

21 turn back to what you testified yesterday. I believe you told us that

22 sometime before the 8th of June, your battalion commander asked you to get

23 prepared for possible combat operations. Is that correct?

24 A. It is correct. I've already said that, in addition to the regular

25 provocations and blockades of roads and shooting at different facilities,

Page 14130

1 a few days before the 8th of June we received some alarming calls for help

2 from the area of Velika Bukovica. In a certain way, the Muslim population

3 there had already asked for our help because they had been attacked, there

4 were provocations against them. There was even information that some 18

5 people had already been killed there. I believe that that is why my

6 commander thought that there was a realistic danger of an imminent

7 conflict, and accordance with that, he issued an order to be prepared. At

8 the end of the day, it was war, and we were on the lines. Some of my men

9 were on the Vlasic plateau, facing the Chetniks. So it was realistic to

10 expect us to be prepared for anything that might happen.

11 Q. And I believe you said that at a quarter past 4.00 in the morning

12 on the 8th of June, 1993, you then received the first wounded person. And

13 the order to get prepared from your battalion commander, you received the

14 day before?

15 A. The order was issued a couple of days before. It was not a

16 classical, written order. We were just told that we should be ready, that

17 we should be prepared, and I acted accordingly.

18 Q. And the preparation, I believe, was, as you testified, together

19 with your colleague Dr. Ribo, to have two reception centres; is that

20 correct?

21 A. Let me correct you. His name was Ribic, not Ribo. And it is

22 correct. Considering the situation and the complexity of the terrain that

23 we covered, in case their combat activities were stepped up, one reception

24 centre, one triage centre, could not provide for the influx of possible

25 wounded. That's why we decided to have two triage centres which were

Page 14131

1 close to each other. This would service to provide for the most efficient

2 assistance to any possible wounded that might come our way.

3 Q. And where were these two collection centres located?

4 A. In Mehurici. And the distance between the two of them was --

5 Mehurici is a small hamlet, a small village. There was an out-patient

6 clinic which was in the centre, so to speak. And across the road from it

7 was this reception, or triage centre on the ground floor of a building.

8 Q. Now, the first wounded which you received past 4.00 in the

9 morning, where was he from? Where was he wounded?

10 A. He was a member of the BiH army, of the 306th Mountain Brigade. I

11 don't know exactly where he was wounded, but he arrived without his left

12 or his right leg. One of his legs had been amputated. The second one who

13 arrived, maybe half an hour later, also had sustained a wound from a

14 land-mine.

15 Q. Now, on that day, 8th of June, 1993, there is information that

16 more than 24 people were killed on that day, among them perhaps civilians.

17 Were you aware of that?

18 A. Unfortunately, I heard that only one or two days later. When I

19 say "unfortunately," I'm sorry that these people were killed. I did hear

20 about the incident involving detained members of the HVO, and I only

21 learnt that a couple of days later. And yet a few days later, I learned

22 that two of my wounded who had been brought too late were also there, that

23 they were also in that execution line - I don't know what to call it- that

24 they were there.

25 Q. Were you asked to go somewhere to look at these bodies, for

Page 14132

1 instance? Did somebody tell you that?

2 A. No, no one ever made such a request. I found out about this by

3 chance, when in fact people guessed about what had happened, but no one

4 ever officially requested me to go and have a look at those bodies, nor

5 did I ever see them.

6 Q. And who told you about that later? Do you remember that?

7 A. Well, as I said, assumptions were made about what had happened. I

8 can't remember who told me that they had been killed. But there was this

9 assumption that they had been killed, and I think that one of the soldiers

10 told me about this. I really don't know who, though.

11 Q. And when you talk about assumptions that they had been killed,

12 what are you talking about? What kind of assumptions were made?

13 A. I wasn't making any assumptions, but I heard that they assumed

14 that the people who had been arrested, who had been captured, had

15 disappeared somewhere, and they assumed that the worst had happened to

16 them. I didn't make any assumptions, but I heard about assumptions made

17 by other people.

18 Q. I mean, it's an obvious question, but do you think it's serious

19 that more than 20 people were killed in the immediate surroundings of your

20 location? Didn't you discuss that with your battalion commander within

21 the battalion command?

22 A. Well, look. It's not the duty of the battalion commander to talk

23 to people at my level about such matters. I never spoke to him about that

24 subject. He probably had contact with the services who were responsible

25 for looking into such assumptions. He never spoke about the matter to me.

Page 14133

1 I heard about this by chance, naturally. We heard that men had been

2 captured, arrested, but he never spoke to me about what had happened.

3 Q. Did you hear about the survivors from this incident, massacre, if

4 I can call it like that?

5 A. As I have already said, perhaps a few days later, or maybe even a

6 month later, after the events, I found out that two wounded men who had

7 been brought to me that evening, two members of the HVO, I heard that they

8 had survived the massacre. I must be frank and say that I suspected that

9 something particular had happened to the man who had been seriously

10 wounded. There were a number of entry and exit wounds that he had and I

11 couldn't understand how this had happened. But he was fairly agitated,

12 and I didn't want to tire him, but later I found out that those two HVO

13 members, those two wounded men, were involved in that incident.

14 Q. Is it possible that one of these persons was called Berislav

15 Marijanovic, a Croat from the village of Paklarevo? Would that be a

16 possibility? He was born in 1962.

17 A. I don't know. His name, I don't know whether it was Berislav. I

18 think the first man was called Zoran or Darko. As for the second one, I

19 really don't know what his name was. We considered him to be lightly

20 wounded. We provided him with medical care. And given the situation, we

21 placed him in the gym with the other civilians.

22 Q. Now, you just said that something particular had happened to the

23 man, and you were talking about a number of entry and exit wounds. Can

24 you really be more specific about what you mean, what you saw?

25 A. I saw a specific type of wound that can only be inflicted by the

Page 14134

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

Page 14135

1 use of an automatic weapon. It can only be the result of a burst of fire,

2 as far as I am familiar with such things. He had a number of wounds. The

3 most critical wound was to the ribcage, on the right, and his ribs had

4 been damaged. And he was a very seriously wounded man. As to the exact

5 number of wounds that he had, I don't know how many there were exactly,

6 but there were a number of wounds that indicated that he had been hit by a

7 number of bullets.

8 Q. And why was that special to you, as a doctor? Can you tell the

9 Trial Chamber.

10 A. Well, first of all, they were brought to me very late. If you're

11 referring to the arrival of those two HVO members. As far as the wounds

12 are concerned, I believe that they must have been hit by a burst of fire.

13 It wasn't the result of sniper fire. Someone had simply opened fire on

14 the man at close range. And given the state of mind he was in, well, he

15 seemed to be a textbook example of a wounded man who had been traumatised.

16 And having arrived at our reception centre, he was already a little more

17 stable.

18 Q. So if you are saying it was open -- there was open fire at a close

19 range, that would suggest that it wasn't a part of a normal combat action,

20 for instance. Is that what your assumptions or your assessment was at

21 that time?

22 A. Exactly.

23 Q. Now, didn't you share that -- you may have answered, but please

24 help me again. Didn't you share that with your commander, that you had a

25 wounded soldier --

Page 14136

1 A. Yes, I told him, naturally. There was a report. I've already

2 said that at the meeting, at around midnight, I don't know exactly when we

3 had the meeting, but at that meeting I also reported on the case of the

4 two HVO members who had been wounded, and I was requested to escort them

5 to Zenica because of their wounds. But I didn't draw any conclusions as

6 to where they had been wounded and how they had been wounded. All I did

7 was establish the nature of the wounds.

8 Q. So if you recall, what was the commander's response, if anything,

9 when you told him that, during that late-night meeting?

10 A. I don't know what sort of measures were taken afterwards. In my

11 opinion, I had done my bit. And later on, it wasn't for me to try and

12 find out what had happened. About a month, a month and a half later, a

13 friend of mine said that this young man was one of the men who had been

14 shot at, who was a participant in this execution, was involved in this

15 execution.

16 Q. Let me just finish this part. And again, you may have answered.

17 You have never been requested to, by military police or civilian police or

18 state police, to give an account of what had happened on the 8th of June,

19 1993 in relation to these soldiers you treated?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. Let me go back to the 24th of April, 1993. And you

22 described that you were called out, I believe, to go to a casualty of your

23 troops. And then I believe you said outside Mehurici you came across an

24 Arab who was wounded. Can you tell me, if you can recall after such a

25 long time, what the wounds were? I believe you said they were complex

Page 14137

1 wounds, but can you tell us perhaps the cause of these wounds?

2 A. Well, it was quite obvious that the wounds were gunshot wounds,

3 that the two Arabs who were with him, and he was a third one, had weapons;

4 they were armed.

5 Q. And can you tell us the location in relation to Mehurici where you

6 came across these Arabs?

7 A. Well, at the exit from the village, there's a bridge that turns

8 right, in the direction of Pilake [phoen] and it was at the exit by the

9 bridge that I had stopped. I had the misfortune to be passing by at that

10 time.

11 Q. So it was basically inside Mehurici that you came across the

12 Arabs?

13 A. At the very exit from the village of Mehurici. It wasn't actually

14 in the village itself. It was on the road leading out of the village, in

15 the direction of Travnik and Zenica.

16 Q. Yes. Perhaps it may consume some time, but if you could have a

17 look at the map. I have a copy of a map. You, as a doctor, perhaps you

18 can tell us -- just if you can circle the location with a pen. And for

19 your convenience - I don't think it's disputed - I marked Mehurici with a

20 yellow marker. If you could circle, pinpoint where you encountered this

21 Arab.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter can't hear the witness now.

23 A. In this area here.

24 MR. WAESPI:

25 Q. If you can make a big circle around the area - it doesn't need to

Page 14138

1 be precise - where you encountered this Arab.

2 A. I'm trying to find the location. I can't see the road here. You

3 only have the area around Mehurici, the villages. Fazlici is here,

4 Mehurici here. It should be somewhere here.

5 MR. WAESPI:

6 Q. The witness just marked -- and perhaps you could make a circle

7 around your dot.

8 A. [Marks] I can't be sure of this point.

9 Q. Thank you very much. I think that's sufficient. And the circle

10 is between the villages of Poljanice and Fazlici, south of Mehurici.

11 Thanks, Doctor.

12 Let me go on -- just briefly on that document, you know, which you

13 said -- basically said the document you found on this Arab which said he

14 was a humanitarian worker from Egypt, signed by the minister, I believe,

15 of interior of Croatia. Did you see other documentation like that while

16 you were in that area or was that the only time?

17 A. I didn't see a similar document. I found that document by chance,

18 because I asked the other Arab, who knew some Serbo-Croat, I asked him to

19 show me this passport. And it's only in that case that I saw what I

20 mentioned. He was a humanitarian worker and he was to be granted free

21 passage through territory in Croatia and territory under the control of

22 the HVO.

23 MR. WAESPI: Your Honours, I note that there may be time for a

24 break. I think I only have a very few minutes left, so -- and I have a

25 lot to cover, so I need to reorganise. If the break could be done perhaps

Page 14139

1 now. I believe I may have another ten minutes, if my calculations are

2 right. But I can go on if you want me to, and just finish it. I'm in

3 your hands.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Continue for another ten minutes

5 and we'll have our break at 20 to 4.00.

6 MR. WAESPI: Very well.

7 Q. You told us, Witness, and I'm continuing on the 24th of April,

8 1993, in that evening, I believe, when later the Emir came. But before he

9 came, you said that you were sitting together and "six of us suggested" or

10 "we suggested to go to the camp." It dealt with the release of these

11 people who were detained or accommodated, whatever. "Six of us," you

12 said, who were sitting together suggested to go to the camp.

13 A. I didn't say six of us. I said we who were there. I mentioned

14 the commander, Mr. Ribo, and the other people who were there in addition

15 to myself. I didn't mention a number. I didn't count them. At the time,

16 that wasn't on my mind. A group of us decided to go up to the camp, that

17 they relocated at a certain period of time later, they relocated the camp

18 to a place called Poljanice. That's where they had a camp and we decided

19 what we could do for the people up there.

20 Q. Had you been before at the camp?

21 A. No. No.

22 Q. So why did you suggest to go to the camp?

23 A. Because there was no other solution. They had taken the people

24 there and parents and friends were affected. We didn't know what to do at

25 the time. It seemed that we should go up there to try and find a

Page 14140

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

Page 14141

1 solution. Because we no longer saw any of the Arabs after that, after

2 they had taken the civilians up there. Naturally, when we heard about how

3 these people were humiliated, they had been chained, et cetera, well, it

4 was terrible.

5 Q. And you and Ribo, you were sitting at the battalion command on

6 that evening?

7 A. Yes, yes.

8 Q. And then I believe Ramadan went away, and then he came back with

9 the Emir, as you described him?

10 A. Well, before that, Ramadan turned up. Some of the -- one of the

11 local Muslims must have told him about the situation. He then turned up.

12 We tried to persuade him to help. At first he refused. He said it wasn't

13 his affair. But later he agreed to help and then he turned up with Emir.

14 And then only the battalion commander continued to negotiate with Emir.

15 The rest of us didn't participate.

16 Q. Now, you said that Emir appeared escorted by armed members. How

17 many armed members was Emir escorted by?

18 A. Well, since it was night-time and -- well, there were two or three

19 of them accompanying the Emir. They would turn up in their

20 four-wheel-drives or Toyotas. Two or three appeared. They were armed

21 Arabs.

22 Q. And had you seen this Emir before or after this evening as well or

23 was that the only time you had seen him?

24 A. Well, I'd see them when they passed through Mehurici. I saw the

25 Emir when he was passing through Mehurici, his vehicle. Since I said that

Page 14142

1 they had a room up on the floor, the Emir would go to the room they had on

2 the first floor. But I don't know what sort of work they did. I'd seen

3 him before. I'd seen him passing by. But I never had direct contact with

4 him.

5 Q. Now, in relation to that room they had, this office, you testified

6 yesterday that after the Arabs left, they kept the room for a little bit

7 longer.

8 A. Yes. That's what I'm talking about. The Emir would go there

9 occasionally. They held onto the room on the first floor of the school

10 for a certain period of time afterwards.

11 Q. Do you remember for how long they used, occupied the room?

12 A. I don't know exactly. Perhaps up until the time that the 27th was

13 formed. That was in midsummer. Perhaps they were still using it then.

14 I'm not quite sure what the purpose of this room was. But no army members

15 went up to the floor, the first floor, where that room was located, not

16 until the time when the 27th Brigade was formed.

17 Q. And incidentally, when did you leave the area, Mehurici?

18 A. When did I leave? On the 18th of March, 1996. The battalion

19 command was located there, and later on, the brigade command was located

20 there. I had duties to perform there, right up until the time that the

21 wartime brigade was disbanded, right up until the time that we were to

22 mobilise.

23 Q. So all the time you stayed in Mehurici as a doctor?

24 A. No. The command was located in Mehurici, but given the intense

25 fighting subsequently occurred. I didn't spend that much time in

Page 14143

1 Mehurici. I was present in various parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

2 throughout the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Our command was located

3 up there. The unit's administrative section was located up there, et

4 cetera.

5 Q. Let me return in the final minutes to this Emir. Do you know his

6 name? Do you remember what his name could be?

7 A. I'm not sure. I think the name of the person we're talking about

8 right now was Wahiudin, but I'm not sure. Because I had very little

9 contact with them. For professional reasons, I couldn't refuse to treat

10 these two wounded men. But I tried to maintain my distance. I think his

11 name was Wahiudin. Later, after Emir, Abu Haris appeared. I heard that

12 he was an Emir and a doctor.

13 Q. Would there be Dr. Abu Haris?

14 A. Yes. That's what I was told, that this person was Dr. Abu Haris.

15 Q. And when you say later he appeared, what do you mean by that?

16 When did he appear? Later that evening?

17 A. Well, that confused me too. In June, July, August, when

18 everything had been hermetically sealed off, it was impossible to move and

19 suddenly they appeared. I say "they appeared" because I would see them

20 when they were passing by. I don't know exactly when he appeared, but it

21 was perhaps sometime in mid-July. I can't be sure. I couldn't say

22 exactly. But on the whole, they did appear.

23 Q. But on that evening, the person who came with these armed people

24 initiated by Ramadan, who talked to -- negotiated with your commander,

25 that was not Abu Haris, in our opinion.

Page 14144

1 A. As far as I know, his name was Wahiudin.

2 Q. Can you describe his appearance?

3 A. I can. He's a textbook example of a seasoned guerrilla. I think

4 he had a scar. I think he had lost one eye, in fact. He had very evident

5 scars. This was obviously a very seasoned guerrilla fighter. That's the

6 impression he left given his arrogance and his refusal to have contact

7 with our commander. He was a very difficult person. That was the

8 impression I had. Naturally, later, when they remained alone and spoke to

9 each other, I don't know how things unfolded.

10 Q. Do you know where he was from?

11 A. I don't know.

12 Q. And how old was he?

13 A. I can only make assumptions. It's difficult to assess their age,

14 given their appearance, but I think he was between 30 and 40 years old at

15 the time. I don't know exactly.

16 Q. Had he facial hair?

17 A. They all had beards, the ones I saw.

18 Q. You told us about Arabs you have seen. I believe the one person

19 you mentioned was from Egypt. I believe you told us that Ramadan was from

20 Syria.

21 A. Syria.

22 Q. Now, do you remember other countries of origin of Arabs who were

23 in your area?

24 A. I can't remember. I was speaking about the Arabs I was sure of,

25 or rather, the Arabs whose names I could see in documents. In the case of

Page 14145

1 this wounded man, I could see that he was from Egypt, at least on the

2 basis of the passport he had. Ramadan told me that he was from Syria, but

3 I don't know which other countries they were from.

4 Q. How many Arabs did you treat while you were there? Was it the

5 only time when you were treating this Arab you saw out of Mehurici, or

6 were there other occasions?

7 A. As I have already said, there was this Ramadan and the wounded

8 Arab. Later they had their own doctor. I've already said that Abu Haris

9 appeared. But even if they hadn't had their own doctor, after the events

10 in Miletici, I considered them to be dogs of war. And to the extent that

11 it was possible, I tried to avoid contact with them, not because I was

12 afraid of them. And many members of my unit behaved in this way. I dealt

13 with these two cases, and that was it, as far as the Arabs are concerned.

14 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, I have two more questions which will

15 take perhaps two or three minutes. Shall I deal with it now or do we want

16 to make a break?

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: Now.

18 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much. And with your permission, I

19 would like to show a third exhibit to the witness, which has been prompted

20 by something the witness said. And it's a previously admitted exhibit,

21 DH128/6 -- 182, DH. And if the picture perhaps could be put onto the

22 ELMO. It should speak for itself.

23 Q. Before you do that, Witness: Your Honours, is that okay, that we

24 show that to the witness? Because I haven't announced it. Thank you.

25 If you can look at the picture, and perhaps check --

Page 14146

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

Page 14147

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. -- that these persons, especially the person standing in front,

3 obviously, of this white bus. Do you recognise anybody you know on this

4 picture?

5 A. I'm not sure that I recognise anybody. Maybe -- I assume that

6 this person with the green beret could be Wahiudin. He has an eye patch

7 and he's standing in front of the van. That might be him, but I can't be

8 sure. I'm not sure whether it is him.

9 Q. Thank you very much. And the last question is: You just said

10 after Miletici you considered these people - I believe you meant the

11 Arabs - as dogs of war. Can you tell us what you mean by that?

12 A. As far as I knew from literature and from various books, as far as

13 I have read about war, and judging by their behavior and by their

14 arrogance, this guy, this Sheikh was a leader who made all the decisions.

15 There was no military hierarchy. There was no military responsibility.

16 When I arrived in Mehurici, they had already assumed a certain shape, the

17 shape of a military unit. And especially after the brutal crime that they

18 caused in Miletici, that's how I perceived them, as people without

19 responsibility, without any discipline, without any proper hierarchy. All

20 of them subject to the will of one man, without any real chain of command,

21 without any real discipline. That's how I perceived them.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is a photo of a better

23 quality. Maybe you can show that to the witness, to help him.

24 MR. WAESPI: I appreciate that.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Here is a colour photo, the same

Page 14148

1 one.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The previous one was also a colour

3 photo. Mr. President, this is not helping me, because the person for whom

4 I assume that I know him is turned away from the camera, and I can't see

5 the scars that I could identify him by. I only assume, and only based on

6 the scarf that he has around his neck, the Yasser Arafat type of scarf,

7 the traditional scarf.

8 MR. WAESPI: Thank you very much, Witness. And I appreciate, by

9 the way, the work you were doing as a doctor in these difficult times,

10 helping these people down there. Thanks a lot.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. It is 10 to

13 4.00. We are going to resume at 20 past 4.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 4.24 p.m.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] After the break, I'm going to

17 ask the Defence whether they have any additional questions.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

19 Mr. President. We don't have any additional questions for this witness.

20 And the other Defence team?

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. No

22 questions.

23 MR. WAESPI: Just before the witness is released, I don't know

24 whether you have any questions, Your Honours, but that you can sign his

25 exhibit.

Page 14149

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Judges will have a few

2 questions. Just a few minor things to ask you.

3 Questioned by the Court:

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] First of all, let me clarify one

5 thing. Do you have a degree in medicine or not, today?

6 A. No. I still have a few exams left.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. So you were a

8 member of the medical corps and you're still a member of the medical

9 corps, aren't you?

10 A. That is correct.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A while ago, you were talking

12 about the detainees. Actually, it was the Prosecution that mentioned the

13 detainees, and the Defence objected to that term. I would like to be

14 clear on that. The Judges have looked at the indictment, and in the

15 indictment, it says that there was ill-treatment in the school, as well as

16 in the blacksmith shop of Mehurici. In the indictment, and in the

17 testimonies that we have heard, the witnesses of the Prosecution as well

18 as of some witnesses of the Defence, have mentioned that they were either

19 in the blacksmith shop or in the school. You were treating these persons,

20 and the Judges would like to know whether these persons suffered any

21 ill-treatment. You were there, you were present, you were treating these

22 persons. You looked after them. You witnessed the facts. You were

23 called as a Defence witness to help them with their case. As far as the

24 ill-treatment of these persons is concerned, what can you tell us?

25 A. Mr. President, before you and the other Judges, I claim with full

Page 14150

1 responsibility that what I saw there, what I witnessed there, was not

2 ill-treatment. There was no inhumane treatment that might have put their

3 people at risk. This did not take place, either in the school or in the

4 blacksmith shop, as it is called. There was no torture, there was no

5 ill-treatment. People were not deprived in any way. In my testimony, I

6 have mentioned quite a few things showing how much we tried to help these

7 people, to improve their conditions at the time. I know very well what

8 prisons are and what torture is, what humiliation is, because at one point

9 in time I suffered ill-treatment at the hands of the Serbian and Chetnik

10 aggressor. And that's why I would like to underline that these people

11 that you're asking me about, that both these groups were treated with a

12 lot of tolerance and humanity, in a proper military way. These people who

13 were in the gym were looked after. The civilian protection, and we

14 provided logistical support only. In terms that I've already mentioned,

15 we helped with food and other provisions.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The witness who has testified

17 here told us that there were about 25 children, more or less. As far as

18 you can remember, did you see children in the Mehurici school? And I

19 believe that there was even one very young child who could not have been

20 more than a couple of weeks old. Do you remember that? Did you pay any

21 attention to these children? Did you look after them?

22 A. I remember at the beginning of my testimony, when I was asked

23 about the arrival of these people, I said that I noticed children in the

24 group, and I suggested to the commander that our reserves of food were to

25 be handed over to the civilian protection for the children and for the

Page 14151

1 elderly. The children received three times a day milk and other things

2 that were intended exclusively for children. And there were no cases of

3 illness or lethal outcome among the children.

4 As far as I can remember, one elderly person died, but he died

5 because he was frail and old, and I believe that the conditions

6 contributed to his death. But in any case, he died of natural causes.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And my last question. The

8 Prosecution has asked you a while ago about the two persons who were

9 seriously injured, whom you treated, and later on you learned that they

10 belonged to a group of persons who were shot at. And the person that you

11 treated, you said at the beginning that one of them was wounded in the

12 leg, or his leg was missing, and that that person was a victim of an

13 anti-personnel land-mine. What can you tell us about that? Because such

14 an injury could not have originated from a land-mine.

15 A. Mr. President, you're talking about the injured persons who were

16 members of the BiH army, who were among the first to arrive after having

17 been injured. They arrived there around a quarter past 4.00 in the

18 morning. However, if you're referring to the HVO members whom I treated

19 and who were seriously injured, none of them were injured by a land-mine.

20 They both suffered gunshot injuries. One of them was seriously injured

21 and the other one was slightly injured. The members of the BiH army who

22 arrived amongst the first in the morning, they both suffered as a result

23 of stepping on a land-mine, and they lost their legs as a result of that.

24 I apologise for having to correct it. So which two men are you referring

25 to? Are you referring to BiH army members or the HVO members?

Page 14152

12 Blank page inserted to ensure the pagination between the English and

13 French transcripts correspond

Page 14153

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The distinction has to be

2 clear. You said that BiH army members were injured by land-mines. I

3 remember that. And when you treated the wounded, did you wear a white

4 uniform or did you wear a military uniform? How did you dress at the

5 time?

6 A. In the triage centre, in the out-patients' clinic facilities, I

7 wore a white coat and the insignia of the Red Cross. I insisted on that,

8 with all my personnel, with the paramedics and the rest of my personnel.

9 I told them that they should wear insignia of the Red Cross and bags with

10 the Red Cross markings.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The two HVO soldiers who were

12 seriously injured, one of them was seriously injured and the other one was

13 slightly injured, when they saw that you were a doctor, that you wore a

14 white doctor's coat, did they talk to you about the circumstances of their

15 wounding? Do you remember that episode? Did they talk to you?

16 A. I remember that. I've already spoken about that. Given the

17 number of wounded that we received on that day, the slightly wounded HVO

18 soldier, once he was primarily treated, was moved to the gym, for a

19 practical reason. We did have an out-patients' clinic, but it was

20 overbooked, and the situation was such as it was at the moment. That's

21 why we sent the slightly injured person to the gym. That's why I had not

22 had much communication with him. I just took his case history and I sent

23 him to the gym.

24 The other one, I've already said that in addition to having been

25 seriously injured, he was frightened. He was distracted. He was in a

Page 14154

1 very bad psychological state. And while I was escorting him to Zenica, he

2 only told me and asked me whether I could get him in touch with a priest.

3 That was his only request and the only thing he told me. I suppose that

4 he believed that a priest might be of assistance to him in further

5 transportation. Members of the HVO at the time were sent for treatment to

6 Croatia, Split and other places.

7 I did not communicate much with him. However, I assumed that

8 something specific must have happened, given the nature of his wounds,

9 that looked like a burst of fire that he was exposed to.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So he did not tell you anything

11 about the circumstances of his wounding; he only asked for a priest, and

12 that's all?

13 A. Yes. During that transportation, while we were escorting him to

14 the hospital.

15 JUDGE SWART: Good afternoon, Witness. I have two or three small

16 questions on the HVO members who were in a place other than the gym. You

17 called this room -- later on someone called this a blacksmith shop.

18 That's the place I mean.

19 If I have understood you well, you said before the break about

20 this room or this place. It was not very comfortable. Is that a correct

21 recollection of what you said?

22 A. Yes. This is still my opinion. However, given the situation and

23 the circumstances, the best solution was to send him there. Obviously, if

24 we are talking about amenities and if you have a room which is 4 by 5 with

25 30 to 40 people there, obviously it was not comfortable and they did not

Page 14155

1 have all the amenities, and it was not intended for so many people. That's

2 what I meant when I said comfort.

3 JUDGE SWART: I wanted to ask you how many people were in how much

4 space and you have answered my question already before I was able to put

5 it to you. You also --

6 A. I didn't answer. I said that there was a group of people, of some

7 15 people.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's correction, 15 people.

9 JUDGE SWART: First, what you said was translated as -- referred

10 to 30 or 40 people, and then later on the interpreter corrects that and

11 said 15 people. Could you again tell me how many people were in this

12 place. I'm not clear now, I must say.

13 A. No. It wasn't 30 to 40. I didn't say that. There were 10 to 15

14 people, at the moment when I visited that room and when I entered it.

15 JUDGE SWART: Thank you. I also understood that you came there

16 every day to check a patient who suffers from high blood pressure. Is

17 that correct?

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 A. -- it was my professional and ethical duty to keep an eye on that

22 person in order to avoid any complications. We did not want his health to

23 get worse.

24 JUDGE SWART: [Previous translation continues] ... For some three

25 to four weeks or maybe even more? I don't -- could you indicate me how

Page 14156

1 long they were in this place?

2 A. I don't know exactly. I know that they were kept sometime longer

3 than those who were in the gym. I can't be sure of how much longer.

4 JUDGE SWART: Did you have or did they try to have with you

5 conversations, or was it just to check your patients? Would you tell me

6 something about your contacts with the group.

7 A. I looked at them as patients, but I also looked at them as human

8 beings, as individuals. I did talk to them. I don't know whether there

9 is any time for me to tell you about a reward that I received from one of

10 these people. This happened in 1995. I spoke to them. I tried to

11 communicate with them, because I appreciated their situation. I

12 understood what they were experiencing, because I had been in the same

13 situation. And even if I hadn't been in such a situation, I thought it

14 was normal to help these people, if with nothing else than with a kind

15 word. And I believe it is only human and ethical to act like that.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can you tell us about this

17 reward, this -- somebody who thanked you for having taken care of them

18 during that period? Yes, can you share that with us.

19 A. The person's name is Veso that is his nickname. His first name is

20 probably Veselko. My family was expelled from Kotor Varos. My mother and

21 my wife lived in Croatia until 1995. And when I went to Croatia in 1995

22 to bring them back, the bus stopped before Split and a person approached

23 me in a restaurant. He asked me whether I remembered him. I said I did.

24 And then he gave me a lift in his car to Zabok, where my family were, and

25 he told me that whatever I needed, I could rely on him. He even offered

Page 14168

1 grants this form of immunity, but in this case, according to our Rules, it

2 is the Chamber that grants this immunity. But this would be quite

3 exceptional.

4 If you feel that a question is complicated, ask the person putting

5 it to you to rephrase it, because, as you are aware, the procedure

6 followed here is oral and your answers are what count. The Prosecution

7 and the Defence, or even the Judges, might show you documents that might

8 be related to the questions and ask you to comment on the documents.

9 Roughly speaking, this is the procedure that we will be following.

10 And Defence counsel will provide you with another piece of information,

11 and I'll be glad to give them the floor now.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

13 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Tomasevic. As the President of

15 the Chamber has just said, I would like to ask you that, once I have put

16 my question to you, make a brief pause so that the question can be

17 interpreted. This is very important because the Judges will be following

18 you, and it is necessary for everything we say to be interpreted. Have

19 you understood me?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. You told the Presiding Judge that you're a professor

22 at the university of metallurgy in Zenica. Can you tell me something

23 about your educational background?

24 A. I completed primary, secondary school and university in Zenica and

25 I completed my masters thesis and Ph.D. thesis at the university in

Page 14169

1 Zenica.

2 Q. Professor, tell me: Did you serve in the army before the war and

3 did you have a rank?

4 A. Well, like all the other young men in the former Yugoslavia, I did

5 serve in the army and I was in the school for reserve officers in Bileca

6 from 1960 to 1965. But when I was declared incapable for military service

7 I had the rank of Captain First Class.

8 Q. Tell me: What is your citizenship or what are you by nationality?

9 A. I'm a citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and I am a member of

10 Bosnia and Herzegovina who declares himself to be a Bosniak [as

11 interpreted].

12 Q. Thank you. You said you joined the ABiH at the beginning of the

13 war. Can you briefly tell us which unit you joined, and when, and can you

14 tell us about your reason for joining the ABiH, or rather, the Territorial

15 Defence at the time. My colleagues have just drawn my attention to line

16 8. The interpretation. It says Bosniak here. I don't know whether one

17 can say this in a different way in English. The witness said a Bosnian,

18 which means that he has not opted for a given nationality. He is not

19 affiliated -- his affiliation is Bosnian and cosmopolitan. Thank you.

20 Because Bosniak is usually used as a new term for those who used to say

21 that they were Muslims. But Bosnian would include all the three peoples

22 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Serbs, the Croats, and the Muslims. I

23 apologise for interrupting you, and could you answer my question: How is

24 it that you joined the ABiH? Although you said that you had been declared

25 as permanently incapable of serving in the army.

Page 14170

1 A. Yes. I'll provide you with a brief explanation. On the 6th of

2 April, under the pressure exerted by my students, I went to the People's

3 Assembly in Sarajevo. We who were in Bosnia knew what was going on there.

4 Sniper fire was opened on us from the Holiday Inn hotel. There were

5 Serbian paramilitary formations there, and upon returning to Zenica, I

6 went to the military section to volunteer, to put my knowledge as a

7 reserve officer at the service of the defence of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

8 Q. If I have understood you correctly, in response to a question by

9 the Presiding Judge, you said that you were first a member of the 1st

10 Zenica Brigade and that later on, after the army had been organised or

11 reorganised, you became a member of the 303rd Brigade of the ABiH. Tell

12 me: What position or what duties -- what position did you have and what

13 duties did you perform in the 303rd Brigade?

14 A. In the 303rd Brigade, I was a member of the brigade staff, in the

15 field of operations and training, because that was the field that I had

16 studied in the school for reserve officers. And given the training I had,

17 I had certain knowledge from that area.

18 Q. What was the ethnic composition of the 303rd Brigade?

19 A. The ethnic composition of the brigade reflected the ethnic

20 composition of Zenica. The majority of the men were Bosniaks, but there

21 were many Serbs and Croats, as well as others.

22 Q. Tell me: Up until what time were you a member of the ABiH, and

23 did you have a rank of any kind?

24 A. I was in the army until the end of November 1994, when I was

25 demobilised at the request of the university, because I became the rector

Page 14171

1 of the Sarajevo university. And as for my rank, the rank I had in the

2 reserve -- as a reserve officer in the JNA was turned into the rank of

3 Captain First Class.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have some copies

5 of this document. Could we have it distributed now? It will make it

6 easier for me to ask questions later on if we can refer to this document.

7 Q. Professor, in 1992 and 1993, together with your unit, did you

8 participate in any combat activities; and if that was the case, can you

9 tell us where? Where was your unit engaged?

10 A. The 1st Zenica Brigade, which was formed pursuant to the decision

11 of the Presidency of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 18th of

12 May. This was the first mobile brigade. It participated in the defence

13 and the liberation of the sectors of Visoko, and then, as need might have

14 been in the sectors of Vares, around Zenica, towards Busovaca, Vitez, and

15 finally towards the front line in Zepce, when this front line was opened.

16 Q. You said that your brigade had a multi-ethnic make-up. Tell me:

17 What was the relationship amongst the ethnic groups that made up your

18 brigade?

19 A. Members of the BiH army, regardless of their religious or ethnic

20 affiliation or gender, enjoyed the same treatment by the command and they

21 were equally treated amongst themselves. There were no occasions of

22 segregation or prejudice against anybody.

23 Q. Professor, what was the general situation in Zenica at the time?

24 What was the situation in the area where your unit was engaged?

25 A. At the beginning of the war, in April and May, when I was still

Page 14172

1 not a member of the Territorial Defence, there were several strongholds of

2 smaller groups which opted for cooperation with the aggressor. But very

3 soon, in the villages, these people either surrendered or their resistance

4 was broken. At the moment when I joined the BiH army, Zenica was

5 relatively stable and peaceful. It was not threatened by direct aggressor

6 attacks. However, we had permanent tasks of helping the marginal areas of

7 the free territory of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, especially

8 on the axis towards Biljas [phoen] and Sarajevo.

9 Q. Professor, your unit, which was engaged in so many areas, how was

10 it equipped? Did you have enough professional personnel? Did you have

11 enough weapons, ammunition, for such large-scale combat operations?

12 A. At the beginning, our operations were planned by reserve officers,

13 and they were also in command. With time, the command staff also

14 comprised professionals, mostly Bosniaks, who had previously been members

15 of the Yugoslav People's Army.

16 As for the equipment, we did not have clothes. We did not have

17 footwear. We did not have even infantry weapons, save for those

18 individuals who obtained such weapons through their own means. We armed

19 ourselves by seizing weapons during conflict, especially before the JNA

20 garrison was abandoned. That's how we obtained some long-barreled weapons

21 and some artillery pieces.

22 Q. Professor, you've already told us that in your brigade there were

23 a number of Muslims, Bosniaks, because Muslims were a majority in Zenica,

24 and there were other ethnic groups. You are not a Muslim yourself. What

25 was the attitude of other Muslims towards you? Were there any signs of

Page 14173

1 retaliation in your brigade? Did you notice that at any moment?

2 A. I would like to say that in the 1st Zenica Brigade, before the

3 corps was established, there were two assistant commanders. Not by

4 establishment, because this is not according to establishment. One was a

5 Croat. The other one was a Serb. The rest of us did not feel any

6 pressure for bearing different names or for belonging to a different

7 religious affiliation. We all primarily shared one feeling, and that was

8 being citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina. And all we wanted to do was to

9 defend Bosnia-Herzegovina against aggression.

10 Q. Professor, are you aware of the establishment of some other

11 military units in Zenica? Let me ask you directly: In Zenica, in

12 addition to the BiH army, were there also units of the HVO? If there

13 were, can you tell us: What was the make-up of these units? Do you have

14 anything to tell us about the days when those units were established?

15 A. I can't tell you much about that, but I have a document in front

16 of me, document number 1, in which a person is mentioned. He's an

17 acquaintance and colleague of mine. We worked together at the institute.

18 His name is Dominik Sakic. He was the commander of the HVO brigade who

19 bore the name Jure Francetic, and Jure Francetic was a war criminal from

20 the Second World War. I did not have any information about the make-up

21 and the strength of their brigade. I was not interested in that, because

22 already at the beginning By end of June I volunteered and joined the BiH

23 army. And since I was outside Zenica a lot, I didn't have that much

24 information as to what was going on in the town itself.

25 Q. Professor, can you please look at document number 3, and also can

Page 14174

1 you look at document number 5. Tell me whether you remember this

2 particular event. Did you ever talk about the consequences of such

3 development in Zenica with anybody?

4 A. Of course I remember this. I believe that all the citizens of

5 Zenica who resided in Zenica at the time remember this, because this was

6 publicly aired on the radio and on the local TV. This was the appearance

7 of Mr. Dario Kordic, and I believe that he was very well known to this

8 Tribunal. One of his associates was Ivica Bosnjak, a colleague of mine

9 from the institute. I had worked with him for a long time. We worked on

10 the same research projects. He opted for Herceg-Bosna, and he opted to

11 serve Mr. Kordic, as his spokesperson. I came across him on one occasion

12 in the school hall. He was in an HVO uniform and I was in a BiH uniform.

13 I said: Who gave the name to that brigade? Because that name was the

14 worst possible message to all the other citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

15 those who were not Croats and Catholics. He told me that Jure Francetic,

16 according to them, was a Croatian hero who died for an independent

17 Republic of Croatia, in which I lived, and he didn't.

18 Q. What did this message mean to you? What did this message mean to

19 the others that you referred to while you had this conversation with your

20 colleague? What was the message for you and all of your fellow citizens?

21 A. Jure Francetic was the head of the so-called Black Legion, which

22 was -- which instilled fear among Croats and Serbs [as interpreted] during

23 the Second World War. All those who did not think the same as him were

24 punished by Jure Francetic, and the punishment was inflicted by a sword or

25 a dagger. And the message was clear: Those who were not in favour of

Page 14175

1 Herceg-Bosna, who were in favour of an integral Bosnia and Herzegovina,

2 will also be punished by a sword or a dagger or a knife.

3 Q. Professor, did you witness the relationship or attitude of the HVO

4 towards Croats who did not share that opinion? In other words, towards

5 those intellectuals and individuals who arrived in Bosnia and Herzegovina

6 and in Zenica to convey the truth to the world rather than propaganda and

7 lies?

8 A. First of all, I have to tell the Honourable Chamber that despite

9 all these individual incidents, most Croats and Serbs, as well as Muslims,

10 Bosniaks, as they are called today, remained loyal to the Republic of

11 Bosnia and Herzegovina as an independent, integral, secular state, which

12 had its continuity, and 1.200-year-long history. At my school, some

13 Croatian professors continued working, as well as some Serbian professors.

14 Students were citizens of Bosnia and Herzegovina and belonged to -- they

15 belonged to all the ethnic groups throughout the war. However, there was

16 a lot of propaganda going on in Zenica. The machine instilling lies among

17 the citizens was active. As Smiljko Sagolj was at the head of that

18 propaganda. He presented quite a number of perverse lies to the

19 population, and the aim of all that was to instil the wish for

20 retaliation. We were totally blocked for a year. Not even a bird could

21 enter the town through the lines of the HVO, on one side, and through the

22 Republika Srpska lines, on the other side.

23 Q. Thank you very much. In transcript, on page 56, line 19, when you

24 were explaining the message of the name Jure Francetic, the witness said

25 that instilled fear among Croats, Serbs, and Muslims. The word "Muslims"

Page 14176

1 has been omitted from the transcript. Can this please be corrected.

2 With regard to what you have just told us, Professor, about this

3 terrible propaganda that sowed fear in town, can you please look at

4 document number 1, and can you please read -- the number is DH0878. Can

5 you please read the first two paragraphs in this document.

6 A. The copy that I have is not very legible, but I'll try and read it

7 nevertheless. I suppose is that it says: "Because of the slaughter of

8 the Croats in Zenica and running over children and women with tanks, as a

9 result of the aggression of the Mujahedin forces in Zenica, we recommend

10 the following: From Zenica to complete organised evacuation of the Croat

11 population which lives in the territory of Cajdras -- which wishes to go

12 to the territory of Cajdras. In Cajdras territory, organise circular

13 defence."

14 Q. Thank you. Since you spent your time in Zenica throughout the

15 war, did this ever happen in Zenica, the things that were mentioned in

16 this document?

17 A. Nothing like this ever happened in the territory under the control

18 of the army. It didn't happen, and it could not happen.

19 Q. Professor, can you please look at document number 2 and can you

20 please read, under item 1, paragraphs 2 and 3. The number is 0891.

21 A. "The brutal aggression of extremists is under way against Muslims

22 and the intent is to clean this area and slaughter all the Croats."

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We do not have the translation

24 of this document, so the interpretation will compensate for the lack of

25 the translation.

Page 14177

1 Professor, can you please read. And if the witness could be asked

2 to read slowly so that the interpreters could interpret.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Can you please also read who is it who issued this document. Can

5 you read the letterhead, who it was sent to and the first three paragraphs

6 under item 1 that I have just asked you to read.

7 A. The document bears the date 19 April 1993, to all the soldiers and

8 commanders, to all the presidents of the HVO, to the Croatian people of

9 Central Bosnia. The most brutal aggression by the extremist Muslim forces

10 against the Croatian people is under way. The intention is to clean these

11 areas and to slaughter Croats. The intention of the Halilovic/Mladic

12 agreement is for this area to be dragged into Yugoslavia. This Croatian

13 area to be dragged into Yugoslavia, and for the Croats to be completely

14 destroyed. Once again, somebody wants to chase us away, to expel us from

15 our homes. Hundreds upon hundreds of civilians have been slaughtered and

16 killed in Zenica. Those who haven't been killed are arrested and taken to

17 the mine. In Zenica, Islamic Mujahedin, blood-stained," and one part of

18 the text is missing. The next word is "on the surface."

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now we have the English

20 translation, owing to the registrar. Now we have the translation on the

21 ELMO.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have the

23 translation on the ELMO.

24 Q. Professor, you don't have to read out loud. Can you read for

25 yourself the next paragraph and can you answer. Is this what the HVO sent

Page 14178

1 all the soldiers, to all the commanders, to all the presidents of the HVO,

2 to the entire Croatian population? Did this ever happen in Zenica or in

3 the territory where you were involved in combat as a member of the BH

4 army?

5 A. I can answer with absolutely full conviction that this is nothing

6 but a lie. This doesn't make any sense. As a native of Zenica, I

7 personally know a number of Croats who are my friends, my school

8 colleagues, my colleagues from sports and work, and with the exception of

9 those who joined the HVO, and after the well-known developments in April

10 1993, left Zenica. Nobody else experienced anything bad.

11 Q. In the last paragraph, the attitude towards churches is mentioned.

12 Tell me, please: How did the army and the civilian bodies of authority

13 treat religious buildings, religious officers, religious freedoms in

14 Zenica and in the territory where you served?

15 A. In Zenica, before the war, there were four Catholic churches.

16 There was one Orthodox church, and obviously a certain number of mosques.

17 The BiH army, in which I served, and I can say with pride, respected,

18 because of its multinational composition and because it protected Bosnia

19 and Herzegovina, it respected all the religious buildings, irrespective of

20 the religion that they represented. In the town itself, religious

21 buildings were not attacked. In some rural areas, however, there were

22 some unwanted torchings of some smaller religious facilities. But it was

23 only after the arrival of refugees from the areas that had come under the

24 attack of the HVO or the Yugoslav People's Army that had launched the

25 aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 14179

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is a quarter to 6.00. We

2 will resume after a break, at 10 past 6.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 6.08 p.m.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now resume, and I give the

6 floor to the Defence.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Professor, as a citizen of Zenica and a member of the ABiH in the

9 summer of 1993, did you witness protection being provided for religious

10 buildings, as well as the fact that Zenica made a significant contribution

11 to the most significant church, the most important church in Zenica?

12 A. Yes. There was propaganda, inappropriate propaganda, and the

13 priest of the church of St. Ilija had an idea to renovate the monument to

14 Our Lady was an idea that was accepted.

15 Q. Please have a look at document number 4, and can you tell me

16 whether this document refers to the event that you have just testified

17 about. It's DH1396. That's the number.

18 A. I have a fax of the publication Nova Nasa Rijec. The other title

19 is the meeting of members of the clergy. Priests can't create miracles.

20 I recognise this. The invitation of the priest from the church of St.

21 Ilija was accepted, as well as the invitation of the president of the

22 municipality of Zenica and of other bodies. On the 15th of August, which

23 is a religious holiday dedicated to Our Lady, the invitation to

24 renovate -- to reveal the renovated monument was accepted.

25 Q. Witness, have a look at the next page, DH 1398. Could you have a

Page 14180

1 look at that text and tell me whether this explains everything that

2 happened on that day in Zenica.

3 A. I had a quick look at the text. Father Stipan Radic is mentioned.

4 He's the parish priest of the St. Ilija parish, and then Ante Kajinic is

5 mentioned. He is a sculptor. He is currently the dean of the academy of

6 arts in Siroki Brijeg. Some other names are mentioned, names of the

7 people who belong to the cultural circles of Zenica. One of them is

8 Radovan Marusic, a well-known artist. At the celebration of Our Lady, in

9 addition to the persons who are mentioned, some other persons were there,

10 the imam of the Islamic community of Zenica, who is today the mufti of

11 Zenica. I know him personally. The late Miroslav Drincic, who was a

12 priest in the Orthodox Church in Zenica. I would like to inform the

13 Chamber that this was the only Orthodox priest who did not leave his

14 church and his followers during the war. He remained all the time in

15 Zenica and performed his religious duties. He was not disturbed in that.

16 He was supported by the local authorities.

17 Q. Professor, with regard to the terrible propaganda that you

18 witnessed and the sacrifices on the part of all the peoples, and

19 especially on the part of the Bosniaks after the Ahmici incident, tell me,

20 did Zenica retaliate against its citizens of other religious affiliation

21 and of other ethnic backgrounds? Or in other words did the army try to do

22 their utmost to prevent any form of retaliation?

23 A. The BiH army did not support any form of retaliation, but it did

24 not have to invest any special effort to prevent that, because the

25 citizens of Zenica were not even thinking about retaliating against

Page 14181

1 anybody.

2 Q. Professor, I would ask you as follows: Did you hear, did you

3 participate in any events relative to the Tuzla convoy? If you did, did

4 this event have anything to do with the propaganda? How would you

5 describe that event in terms of the relationship of the BiH army and the

6 Croatian people?

7 A. Before I give you a concrete answer, I have to emphasise that

8 despite the efforts on the part of the HVO and the political leadership of

9 Herceg-Bosna, until the very end of the war, a number of Croats remained

10 in Bosnia-Herzegovina and remained in the BH army. In more specific

11 terms, they stayed with my units that did not want to leave. One of such

12 persons is a friend of mine, Dragutin Ivan Cicak, a lawyer and a founder

13 of the Institute for Research and Help for the Victims of War.

14 As for the Tuzla convoy, the intention of which was to transport

15 goods from the Tuzla base into Croatia, for these good to be sold and/or

16 exchanged for the commodities that Tuzla needed at the time in order to

17 survive and to defend itself from the aggression. It just so happened

18 that I was at the command post of my brigade in the locality called

19 Vjetrenice. This is a pass between Zenica and Vitez. On the eve of the

20 return of this convoy, after its hardship on its way through Herceg-Bosna,

21 we received an order from the command of the 3rd Corps to organise the

22 reception of the remainder of the convoy, and the military police of my

23 brigade was given the task to register all the lorries and all the other

24 vehicles that made part of that convoy and that arrived from the direction

25 of Vitez.

Page 14182

1 It is very difficult for me now to remember the despair of the

2 people who arrived from Vitez and who were travelling towards Zenica,

3 their state of disbelief for having remained alive. They threw themselves

4 on the ground and they symbolically kissed the earth, because they did not

5 believe that all of them, irrespective of their ethnic background, that

6 all the drivers, all the participants in that convoy, would be accepted,

7 that they would be given medical and every other help for them to be able

8 to continue towards Tuzla. From their stories, I could understand that

9 the HVO had intended to stop the Croats who participated in the convoy,

10 and there were 40 per cent of such people, they were to be stopped in

11 Vitez. And they warned them that if they arrived in the territory under

12 the control of the army, that they would be physically destroyed.

13 A delegation consisting of four people arrived in a vehicle to

14 check those allegations. I received them. I gave them coffee. I showed

15 them Cajdras, a settlement in the vicinity, with the church, which had not

16 been destroyed in any way or damaged in any way. I gave them my visit

17 card that I had printed before the war. I told them: I myself am not a

18 Muslim. I'm sitting here, I'm a Bosnian, and I'm sitting here and

19 entertaining you and my only wish is to help you as much as I can.

20 Q. Someone from Zenica an imminent citizen of Bosnia, tell me whether

21 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and all the bodies in Zenica, were they

22 able to protect Zenica from all the attempts to transform it into

23 something that it wasn't? Did Zenica remain a multi-ethnic town in which

24 people who were members of various ethnic communities lived?

25 A. That is what Zenica is to this very day. But I must admit that

Page 14183

1 the ethnic composition of Zenica, when compared to the situation before

2 the war, has changed, primarily as a result of the aggressive propaganda

3 that was spread. And this can be explained by the fact that Zenica, as a

4 town which had 18.000 inhabitants when the Second World War started, yet

5 it had 12.000 inhabitants at the end of the Second World War, and in 1990,

6 it had 150 [as interpreted] citizens. So many of the inhabitants of

7 Zenica had come from the territory of the former Yugoslavia, from Slovenia

8 as well: People who are relatives outside of Zenica, as they were afraid

9 of hunger and the cold, the conditions were terrible, and, well, they

10 would occasionally leave the territory of the town in convoy.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

12 Mr. President, I have no further questions.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters correction. The witness said 150

14 thousand, not 150.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Is there anything

16 the Prosecution would like to say? There are no other questions.

17 MR. NEUNER: We actually wanted to make the correction.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. What was the

19 correction you would like to make?

20 MR. NEUNER: What the interpreters just said. Instead of 150,

21 150.000. It was corrected after the Prosecution had arisen.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.

23 Defence has concluded their examination. I'll now turn to the

24 other Defence team. Are there any questions for the witness?

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

Page 14184

1 have no questions.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll now give the floor to the

3 Prosecution so they can commence with their cross-examination.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Neuner:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Professor. My name is Matthias Neuner. I'm

6 appearing here on behalf of the Prosecution and I will ask you a couple of

7 questions. In case you don't understand any of my questions, please ask

8 me to repeat it and I will try to do so. I'm also prepared to rephrase

9 any question if the need arises.

10 Some documents have been prepared to be shown to you, but due to

11 the limited time which is available at this late stage and the fact that

12 the cross-examination has been reduced now, we probably won't need a lot

13 of them.

14 First let me ask some questions on clarification. You already

15 testified that you were in the 1st Zenica Brigade. When was this unit

16 evolving into the 303rd Mountain Brigade? Can you please state the date.

17 A. When the corps was established, when the 3rd Corps was

18 established, all the brigades were renamed. Three became the first

19 number. That indicated that they belonged to the corps. And then the

20 other number, I think that indicated it was the 3rd Brigade in the corps.

21 This took place on the 1st of December, 1992.

22 Q. From the 1st of December, 1992, what position within this brigade

23 did you hold, please?

24 A. For two or three months, a short period of time, I was the chief

25 of the brigade staff.

Page 14185

1 Q. So I understand that in January 1993, you held the position of the

2 chief of staff of the 303rd Mountain Brigade. As such, were you apprised

3 with the ongoing operations in January 1993 that this brigade performed on

4 the ground?

5 A. According to the establishment of the brigade, we were to have

6 three battalions, and attached units, about 105.000 men. And in January

7 1993, I was with part of the unit, in the wider area of Visoko, in

8 so-called Kalupi area. I could only monitor the situation in that area.

9 Q. If you say you could only monitor the situation in that area, does

10 this -- can you please specify what you mean by "that area." Is this the

11 immediate surrounding of Visoko or does it go further, like towards

12 Zenica?

13 A. No. This territory extends from the river of Fojnica, towards the

14 Crkvice settlement. This is opposite the place called Cekrcici and

15 Ilijas.

16 Q. Thank you very much. I'm asking these questions because in the

17 indictment there is an incident which relates to the wider Lasva area, and

18 I'm just interested whether your area of responsibility also comprised the

19 wider Lasva region.

20 A. No, not at that time.

21 Q. So just for clarification: Though your area of responsibility in

22 the 303rd Mountain Brigade did not relate to the wider Lasva area, have

23 you heard anything while you were employed in January 1993 about an

24 incident in Dusina?

25 A. Not at the time of the incident, but on the 17th of January I

Page 14186

1 returned to Zenica with my unit. It was for a rest, a rest to recuperate.

2 And I assume that the incident involved the fact that five or six Croats

3 were killed. I saw death certificates on walls or on boards that one

4 could see in the town.

5 Q. I'll just ask for clarification. In the transcript is written the

6 17th of January. Are you indeed referring to that date or to a later

7 date, please?

8 A. On the 17th of January, 1993. I remember that date because I was

9 responsible to withdraw my two battalions, the 1st and the 3rd, that had

10 about a thousand men. This withdrawal was very dramatic. We were

11 withdrawing from territory that was constantly shelled by members of the

12 Army of Republika Srpska and by paramilitary formations from Serbia. I

13 organised the withdrawal throughout that day, and it was only under the

14 cover of night, having turned the lights of the bus off, that we withdrew

15 with the combatants and with the technical equipment. This is something

16 that one does not forget.

17 Q. Thank you, sir. I was actually referring to a later point in

18 January 1993, to an incident which evolved following the 25th, 26th of

19 January. I am prepared to show you a document on this incident, just to

20 refresh your recollection.

21 MR. NEUNER: With the assistance of the usher, can I please have

22 the document distributed. It's P128. The document dates from --

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: Just a moment, please. Defence.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, first of all, I

25 don't think that the questions being put by my colleague arise from any of

Page 14187

1 the questions that the Defence put to the witness, and I don't know what

2 is needed to refresh the witness's memory. The witness has already

3 testified about what he was familiar with. I think he has said everything

4 he had to say. I don't see the purpose of refreshing the witness's memory

5 in this situation.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. The Prosecution, what

7 would you say about refreshing the witness's memory? However, one should

8 point out that in the indictment, reference is made to the 303rd Brigade

9 in Dusina. So perhaps this issue should be clarified, because so far this

10 matter has never been raised, and we have the chief of staff of the 303rd,

11 so it's for him to say --

12 Witness, the question is as follows -- the Chamber will put the

13 question to you. In the indictment, reference is made to the presence of

14 the 303rd Brigade on the 25th and 26th of January, in Dusina. The

15 Prosecution have shown you a document dated the 25th of January, in which

16 it states that the 303rd Company, that's to reinforce the Zenica and Lasva

17 sector, and it mentions the villages of Merdani and Dusina. As chief of

18 staff, what could you tell us about this?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, this is the first time

20 I've seen this document, but I know a few things about the event itself.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So this is the first

22 time you've seen the document, which cannot assist you. But the key

23 question is: As far as you know, were there any elements from your unit

24 present in the area? As far as you can remember, because these events

25 took place a long time ago and it might not be easy to remember. And if

Page 14188

1 you weren't there on that date, where were you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I was in the command

3 of the 303rd Brigade. As I said, I was on leave, because after being in

4 the field for 15 or 20 days, in conditions that were in no way civilised,

5 it was customary to make it possible for the combatants and the commander

6 to recuperate, to have a bath, to see the doctor, et cetera. As far as

7 this event is concerned, may I describe the event to you? I was in the

8 brigade command. I was in my office when the telephone rang. Mr. Ivica

9 Santic, who was on the other end of the line, president of Vitez

10 municipality, I was shocked when he introduced himself because I didn't

11 understand, I couldn't understand how he had obtained my phone number. He

12 was a school friend of mine, someone with whom I played sport for many

13 years. He informed me that, from the direction of Merdani, the village of

14 Merdani, towards the Kaonik crossroads, members of the ABiH were allegedly

15 going into action. And again, I say allegedly. They were allegedly using

16 as human shields captured local Croats.

17 I expressed the doubts I had to Mr. Santic in that telephone

18 conversation, because at no point in time up until then, or subsequently,

19 at no point in time had the ABiH used its own citizens as a human shield,

20 regardless of their nationality. I informed the chief of security of the

21 3rd Corps of the entire event.

22 That's what I know with regard to this subject.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And this telephone call was on

24 the 25th or 26th of January? What was the date?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know the exact date, but it

Page 14189

1 was at the end of January.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And on the 25th or

3 26th of January, you were on leave?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This was leave for the

5 purposes of psychological and physical recuperation. This was necessary

6 for everyone who had been in the battlefield under difficult conditions.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Prosecution.

8 MR. NEUNER:

9 Q. We would just like to know: You were informed about the fact that

10 human shields had been taken, but were you informed by which units, by

11 which ABiH units, these human shields had been taken?

12 A. No, because there were no human shields. I assume that this was

13 HVO propaganda, and Mr. Ivica Santic was present at this Tribunal and he

14 was released because it was believed that he hadn't participated in any

15 crimes in the Lasva River Valley.

16 Q. I just would like to read a little passage which does not relate

17 to this incident now we just discussed. I just would like to read a

18 little transcript passage to you. It's -- witness Hasan Barucija

19 testified this. His testimony was on the 26th of November, 2004, on page

20 12460, 12461. He was asked for the 3rd or 4th Brigade arriving on the

21 25th of January, 1993, and he said: "When that unit arrived, I assume

22 that the corps command, they were told to report to us at the confluence,

23 where we were, that they would be given two or three men to assist them to

24 take them to Merdani. And when they arrived, we asked them who they were,

25 and they said that they were members of the Railway Battalion, which was

Page 14190

1 part of the 303rd Mountain Brigade. This is the ironworks company which

2 had a battalion of its own, which was part of that brigade."

3 Having just listened to this, can you explain for the benefit of

4 the Trial Chamber what this ironworks company is?

5 A. The ironworks one.

6 Q. In which battalion this ironworks company, in which battalion of

7 the 303rd Brigade it was working or operating.

8 A. The person whose name you have mentioned is not someone I know, at

9 least I don't remember. But it is true that the 1st Battalion of the

10 303rd Brigade was colloquially called Ironworks Battalion because it was

11 formed at the beginning of the aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina

12 and it was made up of workers from the ironworks.

13 Q. Where was the headquarter of this 1st Battalion in Zenica?

14 A. I don't understand the question. Could you repeat it, please.

15 Q. This ironworks company or 1st Battalion you were just talking

16 about, it was station the somewhere, had a headquarter, I assume. I was

17 just asking you from where this headquarter was.

18 A. It was the 3rd Battalion, and the brigade command was located at

19 various locations, from 1992 to 2005. The 3rd Ironworks Battalion had its

20 command in auxiliary premises, in the auxiliary premises of one of the

21 administration buildings of the ironworks in Zenica.

22 Q. And you just referred to the auxiliary premises of the

23 administration building of the ironworks in Zenica. From this point, how

24 far is it to the headquarter of the 3rd Corps, please? How many

25 kilometres, metres?

Page 14191

1 A. If I can remember it well, this would be about 50 to 100 metres.

2 Q. I would now like, with the assistance of the usher, to show you

3 Exhibit P253, document dating from 28 January 1993, addressed to the 303rd

4 Mountain Brigade. Have you - that's my first question - seen this

5 document?

6 A. I've never seen this document before. I really don't know

7 anything about these activities. I would just like to say that between

8 the 20th and the 25th of January, I handed over my duties of the chief of

9 staff to another man, which means I was no longer the chief of staff, as I

10 was at the time getting ready to go to an international conference on

11 ironworks materials. Actually, it was the world congress which was to be

12 held towards the end of April and beginning of May 1993 in Lyon. I was a

13 guest speaker with a paper to present. It was the world congress on

14 ironworks materials in Lyon, France.

15 Q. Did you ever come -- when did you leave the battalion or your

16 position as chief of staff in the 303rd Mountain Brigade, and when did you

17 come back, or did you ever come back? That's my next question.

18 A. Between the 20th and 25th of January, I handed over my duties to

19 the next chief of staff. I got ready to leave, and towards the month of

20 February, I left the country. I went abroad. And I returned on the 1st

21 of April, 1993. And then towards the end of April, I got involved in the

22 work of the brigade staff, but that time round I was only a member of the

23 staff, in charge of operations and training.

24 Q. Who was the chief of staff in January? I assume it was the 20th

25 or the 25th. Can you please clarify this. Who was the chief of staff

Page 14192

1 within the 303rd Brigade, to whom you handed over?

2 A. Mr. Muhamed Begalic [phoen].

3 Q. And before you left, did anybody approach you, since you had been

4 the chief of staff, did anybody approach you with questions in relation to

5 the Dusina incident? I'm referring now to the Dusina incident from 26th

6 of January, 1993. Were you ever questioned by anybody in relation to this

7 incident?

8 A. No, never. Nobody ever did.

9 Q. I understood from your answers that on the 1st of April you

10 returned to Bosnia-Herzegovina from abroad or from some other place and

11 that, therefore, you were in charge of operations. If I may just ask:

12 Such operations included also tank operations?

13 A. If I understand your question well, you're asking me whether

14 operations carried out by the 303rd Brigade also involved artillery

15 support or tank support.

16 Q. Correct. Whether a tank, to your knowledge, was used, since you

17 were in charge of operations, post 1st of April 1993 and the time you were

18 responsible for that post.

19 A. I must tell you that the first time I saw a tank with the BiH army

20 insignia on the so-called Zepa front line, and this was in mid-June 1993.

21 The BiH army did not have any tanks. It did not have any aircraft. It

22 didn't have any helicopters or other such things that are needed in combat

23 and that highly sophisticated armies normally have. Our weapons were

24 rifles or maybe machine-guns.

25 Q. Just to clarify. So your testimony is that until June 1993, the

Page 14193

1 ABiH did not possess any tanks, and therefore you couldn't use any such

2 tanks for operations of the 303rd Mountain Brigade?

3 A. Mr. Prosecutor, if you have followed me carefully and if my words

4 have been interpreted properly, then you heard that I said that I did not

5 see any tanks. Whether there were any, I don't know, but I didn't see

6 any. I don't know if there were any.

7 Q. Was any other colleague next to you responsible for operations, or

8 you were, so to speak, the most senior person, being in charge of all the

9 operations within the 303rd Brigade, Mountain Brigade?

10 A. With the 303rd Mountain Brigade had a few reserve officers, such

11 as was myself, and we were in charge of planning operations, preparing

12 orders for the execution of operations. There was a group of people, in

13 other words, which was involved in operations and training. I was not

14 alone, and I was not the leader of that group. The leader of that group,

15 by virtue of his position, was the chief of staff.

16 MR. NEUNER: With the assistance of the usher, can the exhibit

17 P345 please be shown to the witness. This is an order dating 16th April

18 1993, and it's sent to the commander of the 303rd Mountain Brigade.

19 Q. Have you ever seen this document?

20 A. No, I've never seen it before. And here under item 2, I can see

21 that a tank, T55, is mentioned with a half combat set, and so on and so

22 forth. I never saw a tank on the ground. I did not see the tank that is

23 mentioned here.

24 Q. Can you just look under letter 1 and tell the Trial Chamber from

25 which direction the tank has to move. There's -- a following route is

Page 14194

1 mentioned there in the middle of the paragraph behind number 1, and

2 there's a starting point. What's the town where this tank has to start?

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, again I have to

4 remark that these questions do not arise from any of the Defence's

5 questions. They have nothing to do with the indictment. So this is

6 something that goes beyond the normal scope of cross-examination.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This is exactly what I was

8 asking myself. The Prosecution asks questions, but what is the intent?

9 What do you want to show or prove? The questions put to the witness by

10 the Defence did not mention any of these problems. The fact that the

11 303rd is mentioned in Dusina, this has been explained by the witness. And

12 this order dates from the month of April. So what do you want to prove?

13 Why does the Prosecution choose this line of questioning? Why do they

14 insist that the action starts in Zenica, goes to Drivusa, Janjici towards

15 Obla Glava. You have to have a reason. We don't know it, however. In

16 order to allow you to put this question, can you please explain its

17 relevance. Let's not waste any more time if you can't do that.

18 MR. NEUNER: The relevance would be Defence document DH891 which

19 has been shown to this witness some time ago, this afternoon, and it

20 mentions an attack from, inter alia, the town of Zenica. It would be the

21 Prosecution's position that certainly details contained in DH891 are

22 beyond the factual basis, but a certain part of DH891, namely, the fact

23 that an attack - and a tank is also mentioned in that document - has been

24 carried out from Zenica. This is, so to speak, a kind of link between the

25 two documents. This document, P345, dates from the 16th of April, 1993,

Page 14195

1 and the other document, DH891, dates from three days later, the 19th of

2 April.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, then the Prosecution tells

4 us that the Defence has presented DH891, in which certain things are

5 mentioned, and the Prosecution says that they have a document that was

6 drafted three days later, mentioning a tank.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the document that

8 the Defence has shown to the witness speaks about the propaganda that I

9 discussed with the witness, and that has nothing whatsoever to do with the

10 second document.

11 Secondly, in the document that is now being shown to the witness

12 by the Prosecution, we can see that this tank originates from the 301st

13 Motorised Brigade. And finally, the Prosecution knows from the

14 testimonies of his witnesses that on the 16th, the army launched a counter

15 attack, which followed after the atrocious crime in Ahmici. The army had

16 significant successes at the time, and as representatives of the

17 international community testified, it was admirable how the commanders

18 managed to curb their troops and return them to their starting positions.

19 If we follow the evidence before this Trial Chamber, then one will see

20 that there is absolutely no link between this question and the questions

21 that were put to the witness by the Defence.

22 Firstly, this is not the witness's brigade. Secondly, there is no

23 link between the two documents.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the document that was shown

25 to the witness by the Prosecution, the 303rd Brigade is mentioned, not the

Page 14196

1 301st.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Under item 2, it says that a T55

3 will be taken from the 301st motorised brigade and it will be brought into

4 combat. Because this was the only brigade that had this ancient tank.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But if you continue it says in

6 English that the use of the tank will be exclusively at the order of the

7 commander of the 303rd Mountain Brigade. So this tank is made at the

8 disposal of the 303rd Brigade. This is what it says at the end of this

9 item. In any case, from what we can conclude, the Prosecution tells us

10 that the Defence produced a document about the propaganda and the

11 Prosecution wants to show that this was not only propaganda because there

12 is a document proving that there indeed was a tank. This is what I could

13 conclude from the discussion. Do you wish to continue? I'm looking at

14 the clock. It is already late. We can go on for a few more minutes, but

15 not longer. Does the Prosecution want to continue at this stage?

16 MR. NEUNER: I could finish within two minutes.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: Two minutes. Okay. [Interpretation] Go ahead.

18 MR. NEUNER:

19 Q. Professor, have you ever been working for the Patriotski List.

20 A. I was an associate of the Patriotic newspaper. I published a few

21 newspapers. I worked as a freelancer, and I was also an intellectual

22 person with certain knowledge. I was familiar with the political and war

23 situation, and as such, I was on the editorial board of this Patriotic

24 newspaper. I was on the publishing board.

25 Q. From when to when did you work for the Patriotski List?

Page 14197

1 A. I didn't work for them. I was a freelancer. I was an outsourcer.

2 I was an associate whose articles appeared whenever I felt need for it or

3 when there was an anniversary, like, for example, the anniversary of the

4 death of a well-known Yugoslav author, Miroslav Krleza.

5 Q. Do you recall when you submitted your first article to the

6 Patriotski List? What point in time?

7 A. I'm afraid I'm not prepared for such questions. It was a long

8 time ago. I have all the documents at home. I have all the articles of

9 mine that were published during the war, not only in the Patriotski List,

10 but also in other printed media. I wouldn't be able to remember off my

11 head.

12 Q. Just two finishing questions. Did civilian and military persons

13 provide article to that Patriotski List, or exclusively military persons?

14 A. According to what I know, anybody who felt the need to publicly

15 present their views and opinions on topical events could be published, and

16 those were both civilians and military personnel.

17 Q. Who financed the newspaper, to your recollection?

18 A. It was the paper of the 3rd Corps.

19 Q. And to conclude: What was the reason to establish such a

20 newspaper?

21 A. The first reason was the need for the members of the 3rd Corps,

22 members of the BiH army, to be informed about the topical events.

23 Secondly, for them to be informed about the successes during military

24 operations. This was an opportunity for them to criticise the negative

25 aspects of life that did exist to a certain extent, and this is the way I

Page 14198

1 viewed the role of this paper.

2 MR. NEUNER: Thank you very much. No further questions.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution is finished. I

4 believe that the Defence does not have anything else. The Judges do not

5 have any questions.

6 Professor, your testimony is finished. We went on a bit longer,

7 but we wanted to avoid a situation in which you would have to come back

8 tomorrow. Thank you for coming to testify. You have answered the

9 questions put to you by the parties. We would like to thank you. We wish

10 you a safe journey back home, and also we wish you a lot of success in

11 your career as a professor. I'm going to ask the usher to accompany the

12 witness out of the courtroom.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now I'm turning to the Defence.

16 I would like to hear the schedule for tomorrow.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, unfortunately, we

18 were not able to start with the following witness today. Tomorrow we have

19 two witnesses. I don't expect any of them to go longer than the witness

20 that we have just finished with. In any case, one of the witnesses should

21 be over.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] There is a risk that the second

23 witness might have to wait until Monday. How much will you take for the

24 first witness? How many minutes?

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] As I've already told you, about 45