Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 14931

1 Thursday, 27 January 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case number IT-01-47-T, the

8 Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Could

10 we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your

12 Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

13 Prosecution, Tecla Henry-Benjamin, Matthias Neuner, and Daryl Mundis

14 assisted by our case manager Andres Vatter.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, and could we have the

16 appearances for Defence counsel.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. President, good day,

18 Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic,

19 lead counsel; and Muriel Cauvin, legal assistant. Thank you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence team.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On

22 behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

23 Mulalic, our legal assistant.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the presiding Judge.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. As I was saying, today on

Page 14932

1 the 27th of January, 2005, the Trial Chamber would like to greet everyone

2 present; the members of the Prosecution who are all present, Defence

3 counsel for the accused who are all present, the accused, as well as

4 everyone else in the courtroom and those around the courtroom assisting

5 us.

6 Before I give the floor to the Defence, who will be requesting

7 that certain documents be admitted into evidence, I will first ask the

8 registrar to go into private session.

9 [Private session]

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Page 14936

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16 [Open session]

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Dixon, now that we're in

18 open session, or would you prefer to say what you have to say in private

19 session?

20 MR. DIXON: Private session, please, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, can

22 we stay in private session?

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 14937











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Page 14938

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3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We're back in open session. I

8 will give the floor to Defence counsel now to deal with the admissibility

9 of certain documents.

10 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

11 Defence suggests that the following documents be admitted into evidence:

12 The documents from our list under section 1: Document 1, 1749; number 2,

13 1753; number 3, 1756; number 5, 1821; number 7, 1828; number 9, 1874,

14 number 10, 1903; and number 12, 1323.

15 We would like to tender -- we suggest that document 1854, that is

16 only in B/C/S, be marked for identification. This document is listed

17 under number 8.

18 Under section 2, we would like to tender the following documents

19 into evidence: Document 1723, 1725, 1758, 1762, 1764, 1769, 1787, 1788,

20 1820, 1822, 1824, 1827, 1830, 1831, 1832, 1835, 1839, 1021, 1844, 1848,

21 1851, 1858, 1864, 1869, 1880, 1881, 1882, 1883, 1884, 1886, 1889, 1902.

22 We suggest that 0832, which hasn't been fully translated or wasn't

23 fully translated when admitted into evidence, we suggest that the English

24 part of the translation be replaced by the translation we provided

25 yesterday, the full translation. We also suggest that document 1604,

Page 14939

1 1094, 1105, 1867 be marked for identification, because they don't have

2 English translations.

3 Document number 3: 0923, 1007, we suggest that these documents

4 also admitted into evidence. Thank you.

5 I apologise. In transcript document under 17, 1842 is not

6 included. I suggest that this document also be admitted into evidence;

7 document 1842.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1604 should be

9 document 1064.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I think there is another

11 document missing; 1893.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Which page were you referring to?

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On the last page.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] 1893. Yes, Mr. President.

15 Yesterday in the course of examination by Mr. Kubura's Defence, we noticed

16 that this document had already been admitted as DK22. As a result, we

17 thought it wasn't necessary to tender it into evidence again.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19 The Prosecution.

20 MR. MUNDIS: No objections, Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, you may take the

22 floor to provide these exhibits with numbers, and if possible, follow the

23 order established by the Defence so that the Judges can make sure not a

24 single document has been omitted.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Mr. President. The following documents

Page 14940

1 will be admitted into evidence: DH1749, the English version DH1749/E;

2 DH1753, English version DH1753/E; DH1756, the English version will be

3 DH1756/E; DH1821, the English version DH1821/E; DH1828, the English

4 version 1828/E; DH1874, the English version 1874/E; DH1903, the English

5 version will be 1903/E; DH1323, the English version DH1323/E.

6 Under section 2, Roman II, DH18723, the English version DH18723/E;

7 DH1725, the English version 1725/E; DH1758, the English version DH1758/E;

8 DH1762, the English version DH1762/E; DH1764, the English version

9 DH1764/E; DH1769, the English version DH1769/E; DH1787, the English

10 version DH1787/E; DH1788, the English version DH1788/E; DH1820, the

11 English version DH1820/E; DH1822, the English version, DH1822/E; DH1824,

12 the English version DH1824/E; DH1827, the English version, 1827/E; DH1830,

13 the English version 1830/E; DH1831, the English version DH1831/E; DH1832,

14 the English version DH1832/E; DH1835, the English version DH1835/E;

15 DH1839, the English version, DH1839/E; DH1021, the English version will be

16 DH1021/E; DH1844 --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have forgotten a document.

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I forgot to mention 1842, DH1842.

19 The English version will be DH1842/E. DH1844, the English version 1844/E;

20 DH1848, the English version DH1848/E; DH1851, the English version

21 DH1851/E; DH1858, the English version DH1858/E; DH1864, the English

22 version 1864/E; DH1880, the English version DH1880/E.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have skipped 1869.

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] DH1869, the English version will

25 be DH1869/E. I will continue. DH8880 [as interpreted], the English

Page 14941

1 version DH1880/E; DH1881, the English version DH1881/E; DH1882, the

2 English version DH1882/E; DH1883, the English version DH1883/E; DH1884,

3 the English version DH1884/E; DH1886, the English version DH1886/E;

4 DH1889, the English version DH1889/E; DH1902, the English version

5 DH1902/E; DH923, the English version DH923/E. Contrary to what was said

6 in the Defence's list, we have the translation of this document into

7 English. DH1007. The English version DH1007/E.

8 The registrar would like to point out that DH832/E has a new full

9 translation and will be marked as such.

10 As far as the documents are concerned which are to be marked for

11 identification, the registrar has noted a series of four documents as

12 follows: DH1604, DH1094, DH1105, DH1867.

13 That concludes the list.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It seems that number 8 on page 1

15 is missing. 1854.

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] That's correct, Mr. President.

17 DH1854 will be marked for identification.

18 That concludes the list, Mr. President.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. No omissions. What

20 would the Defence say? No omissions.

21 We will now call the witness into the courtroom.

22 [The witness entered court]


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. First of

Page 14942

1 all, I would like to make sure that you are hearing the interpretation

2 into your language of what I am saying; and if you can, please say that

3 you have understood.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. You have been

6 called as a witness by the Defence. Before you give your solemn oath, I

7 would like to hear your personal details. So please could you introduce

8 yourself, tell us your particulars.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Fehim Muratovic, and I

10 was born in Zenica, Bosnia and Herzegovina.

11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch his date of birth.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Are you

13 employed at the moment? What is your profession?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm employed as an active

15 professional soldier in the army of the federation.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat your

17 date of birth again because that is not in the transcript.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was born on the 13th of June,

19 1965.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please -- you have

21 just said that you work in a ministry of some sort.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer of the

23 witness because it is overlapping.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a captain by rank.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993, did you --

Page 14943

1 were you employed at the time? Were you in the army? If you were, where

2 were you, in which military formation?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not work in the army. I

4 worked in a private enterprise, and I worked in the --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what the witness

6 said.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. Did you ever testify

8 before any state or international court about the events which took place

9 in your country in 1992 and 1993, or is this the first time that you are

10 testifying?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time that I am

12 testifying.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please read out the

14 solemn declaration that the usher will now show you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down

18 now.

19 Before I give the floor to the Defence I would like to provide you

20 with some information about the procedure that we'll be following here

21 this afternoon. This should enable you to answer the questions to the

22 best of your ability. You will first have to answer the questions put to

23 you by the Defence, and you have certainly already met a member of the

24 Defence before you appeared here for your examination.

25 The examination-in-chief should not take more than an hour and 45

Page 14944

1 minutes, but the questions put to you should be phrased in a neutral and

2 non-leading manner. Once these questions have been put to you and you

3 have answered those questions, the Prosecution, who are to your right,

4 there are three members of the Prosecution, but only one of them will

5 cross-examine you, the Prosecution will then conduct their

6 cross-examination, and they will have the same amount of time as the

7 Defence.

8 After that stage, Defence counsel, who are to your left, may, if

9 they believe that it is necessary, ask you additional questions which are

10 related to the questions put to you by the Prosecution. There are two

11 Defence teams since there are two accused. You will first be examined by

12 one of the Defence teams and then, perhaps, by the other Defence team.

13 At the end of these two stages, after the examination-in-chief,

14 the cross-examination and the re-examination, the Judges who are before

15 you may ask you questions if they believe it is necessary, either in order

16 to clarify some of the answers you have provided to the parties or because

17 they believe that it is in the interests of justice to hear what your

18 position is or what your testimony is with regard to certain events

19 referred to in the indictment.

20 In the course of this hearing, the parties might also show you

21 some documents. Usually these documents are of a military kind. This is

22 done in order to ask you to comment on these documents.

23 This is how we will be proceeding. I would also like to point out

24 two other important issues. You have taken the solemn declaration. You

25 have said that you will speak the truth, and as you are well aware, this

Page 14945












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13 English transcripts.













Page 14946

1 excludes false testimony. False testimony is an offence that is

2 punishable by this Tribunal.

3 And secondly, I would like to point out that when a witness

4 answers a question, if the witness believes that his answer may be used

5 against him at a subsequent date, the witness may refuse to answer the

6 question. In such a case, which is quite exceptional, and we have never

7 had any such cases to date, in such a case the Trial Chamber may compel

8 the witness to answer the question, but the witness is granted a form of

9 immunity. This is a provision that is in force in order to ensure that

10 the truth can be determined and that the witness can assist us in

11 determining the truth.

12 I should also like to point out that the proceedings that are

13 followed here are adversarial and the proceedings are based on your oral

14 testimony and on the written documents that are presented in the course of

15 the hearing or on written documents that have already been presented, and

16 this is why your testimony is so important. The Judges have no written

17 documents that concern you, so your testimony is important.

18 You have a monitor before you, and you will see that everything

19 said in the courtroom is transcribed, and you can see the transcript on

20 the monitor. The English transcript is also evidence.

21 If you feel that a question is too complicated, ask the person

22 putting it to you to rephrase it. Sometimes the parties may ask very

23 complicated questions without realising that the witness might lose the

24 thread of their thought. So ask the person putting a complicated to you

25 to rephrase it.

Page 14947

1 Generally speaking, this is the proceeding -- this is the

2 procedure that we will be following here, and what I have just informed

3 you of is information that I provide to all witnesses who appear here.

4 We will also be having two 20 to 25-minute breaks. We have these

5 breaks for technical reasons and also to give you the opportunity to have

6 a rest, because as you will realise, if you have to continually answer

7 questions, this can be very tiring, and this is why it's good for the

8 witness to have a brief break.

9 If you feel that there are any difficulties, please inform us of

10 the fact. We're here to deal with any difficulties that may arise.

11 I will now give the floor to the Defence counsel who will commence

12 their examination-in-chief.

13 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

14 Mr. President.

15 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

16 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Muratovic.

17 A. Good day.

18 Q. Before I put my questions, I would like to ask you to pay

19 attention to one more thing. You and I speak the same language, and as

20 soon as I put the question to you, you can reply immediately without any

21 difficulties. However, my question and your answer are interpreted so

22 that Their Honours and all sides in the courtroom could follow what you

23 are saying. So that is why I would like to ask you to wait for a few

24 moments and only then begin to answer my question.

25 Did you understand me?

Page 14948

1 A. Yes, I did.

2 Q. Mr. Muratovic, you probably did not understand a question fully

3 which the Judge asked you, so you partially responded to it and that is

4 why I would like to put additional questions to you.

5 You said that in 1992, you worked in a private company in

6 Sarajevo. When did you work in this company?

7 A. Until April 1992.

8 Q. After April 1992, where did you go and what did you do until the

9 end of 1992?

10 A. In April 1992, I returned from Sarajevo to Zenica, and I

11 immediately -- the aggression against my country began immediately, and I

12 joined the TO units in Zenica right away.

13 Q. Could you please tell me, how long were you in the TO, in the

14 Territorial Defence, and after that did you join some other military

15 formation?

16 A. Approximately until August 1992, once the first units were

17 formed. After that, I joined the municipal defence staff in Zenica, and

18 that was the anti-sabotage unit, and I was there until March 1993.

19 Q. And what did you do in 1993?

20 A. In 1993, I began to work in the 3rd Corps Command in Zenica.

21 Q. What were your duties there at the command?

22 A. In the 3rd Corps Command, I worked on security.

23 Q. Thank you very much. So now you have augmented the answer to the

24 question put to you by the learned Judge. You probably did not receive a

25 complete interpretation, so you only partially told us what you did in

Page 14949

1 that period.

2 I would like to ask you now about your education and where you

3 acquired it.

4 A. I have university degree. I have a law degree from the University

5 of Sarajevo. I'm a lawyer by profession.

6 Q. From March 1993, you said that you worked in the military security

7 of the 3rd Corps of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Who was your

8 immediate superior?

9 A. My immediate superior was Mr. Ramiz Dugalic.

10 Q. Mr. Muratovic, please, could you tell us briefly how your

11 competences, tasks were regulated, the tasks of the military security.

12 What rules governed this type of work?

13 A. The task and the competencies of the military security service was

14 regulated by the rules of work as well as the rules of work of the

15 military police as well as by orders of the superior command, and these

16 rules and regulations were mostly taken over from the former Yugoslav

17 People's Army, and they were applied in the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

18 subsequently.

19 Q. Could you tell us briefly, Mr. Muratovic, what duties were

20 performed by the military security service?

21 A. The security service, briefly, is analogous to the state security

22 service, namely the military security service carries out the state

23 security service tasks. It's in the military forces of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina, in order to protect the institutions, the staffs, and the

25 facilities where the military forces are prepared for their use in

Page 14950

1 peacetime and in wartime. The security service also is used to protect

2 all activities during the planning of the use of armed forces in peacetime

3 and wartime, and also that service, the military security service, is used

4 to protect the armed forces from the inside and from the outside from any

5 eventual threat.

6 Q. Could you just briefly tell us what these activities are. Could

7 you classify them in some way? What were the immediate tasks and

8 responsibilities of the military security service that you were a part of?

9 A. That service of the 3rd Corps where I worked, its activity could

10 be classified into three sections; counter-intelligence tasks, military

11 police tasks, and staff security tasks.

12 Q. Mr. Muratovic, could you please tell us whether the military

13 security service had any kind of relationship vis-a-vis the military

14 police of the 3rd Corps; and if it did, what kind of a relationship was

15 that?

16 A. The military security of the 3rd Corps of course had a

17 relationship vis-a-vis the military police, the military police battalion

18 of the 3rd Corps. It was an organ which commanded the military police.

19 The military security is the expert organ through which the commander

20 controls and commands the military police. The military security is

21 entrusted with the proper use of the military police forces, and it plans

22 all of its activities.

23 Q. Mr. Muratovic, could you please tell me, who were the military

24 security organs immediately subordinated to?

25 A. These organs were subordinate -- well, let me explain this first,

Page 14951

1 in which units these organs existed. The lowest ranking unit is a

2 battalion. That's the lowest ranking formation. So from a battalion up

3 through the battalion, division, corps, up to the Main Staff. We have

4 dual responsibility. We have command and expert responsibilities. The

5 chiefs of the security organs from the battalion up to the Main Staff are

6 responsible to their immediate commanders. In the expert sense, from the

7 battalion upwards, they are responsible to the security chiefs of the

8 immediate superior command.

9 Q. So, Mr. Muratovic, if we were to qualify this line of command over

10 the service, would we say that this was a unified command or would it be a

11 dual line of command?

12 A. It's a dual line of command. The command is dual. We have the

13 command line, and we have the expert line. The command line, we have the

14 immediate superior commander, and in the expert line we have the immediate

15 chief of that security service.

16 Q. When you say the expert line of command, what was your duty in

17 relation to the superior security command? Were you obliged to report to

18 this command? Did you receive expert instructions from it which you had

19 to comply with and so on?

20 A. As far as our duties were towards the superior command, we were

21 obliged to report to the superior command. However, we were not obliged

22 to report about the overall use of all the equipment and means of the

23 service.

24 If we look at the hierarchy in the army, the immediate control was

25 in the hands of the minister of defence or the Commander-in-Chief, and

Page 14952

1 they were the only ones who were supposed to know about all of the methods

2 and the work of the security services.

3 The other commanders in the lower-ranking units could be informed

4 about the results of the application of the work and methods of the

5 military security service but only to the extent that the authorised

6 commander permitted this.

7 Q. Mr. Muratovic, the things that you did in the military security

8 service of the 3rd Corps, amongst those things, were you obliged -- did

9 you -- were you allowed to talk about your expert methods and the

10 intelligence on a daily basis to the corps commander, to report to him?

11 A. We were not obliged to report to the corps commander regarding all

12 of the applications of our expert methods and means of operation.

13 Q. You said earlier that the service overall was commanded by the

14 minister of defence and the supreme commander or Commander-in-Chief.

15 Could you please tell me, could the commanders of lower-ranking units from

16 the battalion up to the corps, which all had military security organs,

17 could he or could they command the military security service as a whole?

18 A. In the command sense, they could, but as far as the expert part

19 was concerned, they were not able to do that. The expert part of our

20 work, as I said, was something under the jurisdiction of the minister of

21 defence or the Commander-in-Chief.

22 Q. Could you please tell me if the commander of a lower-ranking unit,

23 of lower rank than the supreme commander or minister of defence, could

24 such a commander monitor your intelligence information and your

25 operational methods, and did he have any jurisdiction as far as

Page 14953

1 counter-intelligence activities were concerned, which was also amongst the

2 tasks of your service?

3 A. No, they could not do that.

4 Q. You said earlier that you had certain responsibilities and the

5 commander, through the military security service, commanded over the

6 military police. Could you please tell us how the military security

7 service acted in relation to the military police. Could you please

8 clarify that a little bit.

9 A. The military security service conducted the work of the military

10 police, issued them their tasks, and controlled the implementation of

11 those tasks.

12 Q. Could you please tell us, in view of the fact that you came there

13 in March of 1993 to the military security service, what was the situation

14 there? What was the personnel at the time in the military security

15 service, and could you please tell us how it developed in the source of

16 1993?

17 A. When I came to the military security service of the corps, at the

18 same time the chief of the military security service of the 3rd Corps also

19 came, Mr. Dugalic. When Mr. Dugalic came to the command of the 3rd Corps

20 -- before he came the military security service was just being developed.

21 Practically, you could say that it didn't exist. In my view, there were

22 few qualified personnel from the former JNA there because these are tasks

23 which are reserved for people of different ethnicity than the one we

24 belonged to. So there were few such officers who were able to organise

25 the military security service in all units.

Page 14954

1 Once Mr. Dugalic came, whose task this was in the former JNA, the

2 military security service began to develop more rapidly.

3 Q. What were your personal duties that you were working on in the

4 course of 1993?

5 A. In the military security service of the 3rd Corps, there were

6 establishment post of clerk and assistant chief of staff security and

7 police affairs and counter-intelligence affairs. Once I came there, I was

8 first given the task of a clerk, and then after that I became assistant

9 commander of counter-intelligence as well as staff and security affairs.

10 Q. Mr. Muratovic, could you please tell us, within these

11 counter-intelligence duties, who did you consider as subjects or objects

12 that were interesting for the needs of normal functioning of the army?

13 Which foreign subjects were given your attention?

14 A. We gave attention to all persons who in any way threatened the

15 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Once I arrived to the military security

16 service in March, in April there was the problem of small groups of

17 foreign nationals of Asian origin who appeared in our area, and regardless

18 of the fact that they were not members of the army, with their behaviour

19 they influenced -- or they had an effect, a negative effect on the image

20 of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 Q. The fact that this happened, did that lead to certain orders and

22 tasks for the military security service so that this element could be

23 monitored and so that adequate measures could be taken in response to

24 this?

25 A. Already in April we sent an inquiry to the administration of the

Page 14955

1 security of the B and H army General Staff. We asked them what to do. We

2 were powerless. We didn't know who these people were. We were unable to

3 identify them. We didn't know how many people exactly were involved. So

4 already in April we were slowly applying some operative measures in

5 relation to these people.

6 Q. Mr. Muratovic, did you do this kind of work periodically or was

7 this an ongoing task in the course of that year for the military security

8 service?

9 A. This was a priority task for the military security service that

10 was ongoing. It was not something that was done periodically. Throughout

11 1993, we were continuously busy with this task.

12 Q. You said earlier, Mr. Muratovic, that you didn't have the best

13 personnel available, there weren't enough experts from that field who

14 could have been given these tasks. Could you please tell us now, what

15 were your material means at your disposal so that you could apply all the

16 proper methods to monitor the enemy, including this Afro-Asian element

17 that you mentioned that could have some kind of effect on the image of the

18 army of Bosnia and Herzegovina?

19 A. As I said before, the army was just being developed, just like the

20 service itself. We had very little personnel and even less technical

21 means for any kind of more serious approach to resolve this problem, but

22 the few means that we had at our disposal we did manage to implement

23 certain measures in relation to these people.

24 Q. Could you tell us about some of the methods that you used when

25 dealing with certain groups; and could you use the same methods for the

Page 14956

1 different groups?

2 A. At the time in Zenica, there were about two groups. One called

3 itself the Turkish guerilla, and the other one was the El Mujahedin group

4 of foreigners. We tried to intercept some of their written communications

5 to intercept some of their telephone conversations, and as far as the

6 Turkish guerilla is concerned, we managed to infiltrate some of our men

7 into that group or, rather, to develop an a network of cooperation.

8 Q. Since -- given the procedure that you implemented from the end of

9 April until the end of 1993, what I'm interested in is whether you

10 informed your superior command the results of the information you

11 obtained; and in certain areas could you take your own decisions

12 independently or did you have to have the approval of your superior

13 command?

14 A. As far as all the measures are concerned, as far as all the

15 methods that we used are concerned, we reported to the superior command,

16 and we also received specific tasks and instructions from them. We

17 couldn't do anything on our own initiative if we hadn't received any

18 specific orders.

19 Q. Since you have just said that there was some sort of a guerilla

20 group in the area, when did you manage to infiltrate your own men into

21 that guerilla group? Was that at the beginning of the year or did you

22 take certain measures at some other time?

23 A. We took measures with regard to the Turkish guerilla towards April

24 or May. We needed some time to gather information about that group. Once

25 we had obtained the necessary information about the strength, about the

Page 14957

1 command structure of that group, we then took certain measures. We

2 arrested the entire leadership of the group, all the leaders of the group.

3 Before that, we sent an inquiry to the General Staff in Sarajevo, asking

4 what to do. We were told that they should be placed under the control of

5 the ABiH or that they should be arrested. Since they didn't want to be

6 placed under the ABiH control, we arrested the leaders of the group, and

7 as of that time, they no longer existed as an organised group. The

8 remainder of the men, who were Bosniaks from the surroundings, joined the

9 regular ABiH units.

10 Q. You said that you needed to work for a few months before you

11 obtained information that you could forward to your superior command. A

12 minute ago, you also mentioned that at some point in time in Zenica an El

13 Mujahedin detachment arrived.

14 In 1993, were you able to establish contact of any kind with that

15 detachment?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I apologise to interrupt you.

17 You've just said that the headquarters of the El Mujahedin detachment --

18 he mentioned -- you said that he mentioned the headquarters of the El

19 Mujahedin detachment. He hadn't mentioned it before.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise. My colleague has

21 just said that on page 25, line 2, it says that the El Mujahedin was there

22 with the headquarters and that's a mistake. I thought that's what the

23 witness said. I apologise.

24 Q. Tell me, did the El Mujahedin detachment at any point in time have

25 its headquarters in Zenica? And if that was the case, when?

Page 14958

1 A. The El Mujahedin detachment did have its headquarters in Zenica.

2 That was -- well, I can't say when exactly -- in the second half of 1993.

3 The third quarter of 1993.

4 Q. Thank you. Could you now tell me, could you use these methods

5 against them, the ones that you used against the guerilla group?

6 A. We tried to do so, but the group was quite different when compared

7 to the first Turkish guerilla group. This was a very hermetic group, and

8 they would not allow anyone to approach them.

9 We also intercepted some of their written communications. We

10 tapped some of their phones, but we weren't able to establish a network of

11 cooperation within that unit.

12 Q. Mr. Muratovic, using all those methods up until the end of 1993,

13 were you able to find out how many such men there were, where they were

14 from, what their names were? Given all those methods and efforts that you

15 made up until the end of 1993, did you find out anything that would have

16 enabled you to assess their strength and their size?

17 A. I personally worked in the security organ of the 3rd Corps, almost

18 until the end of the war. Throughout the wartime period, I worked in that

19 organ. And during that time we never found out anything about their

20 numbers, their names, their origin, how they had arrived there, given that

21 our territory had been completely blocked off. They would appear with

22 cars with number plates from foreign countries, with Croatian number

23 plates. We managed to identify some of them, a few of them, and they had

24 passports from Western European countries. I personally saw some Danish

25 passports, British passports, et cetera.

Page 14959

1 Q. You as the security service, were you able to enter the territory

2 where the El Mujahedin were located, and were you able to conduct

3 investigations there as you were able to conduct investigations in any

4 other army units?

5 A. As I have already said, I personally never entered the premises,

6 the territory or the premises of this group, nor did any of my colleagues

7 manage to do so.

8 Q. Given those problems, did all the security organs start

9 cooperating in order to clarify certain incidents that the units -- that

10 those units were involved in?

11 A. As far as I can remember, towards the end of 1993, or perhaps at

12 the beginning of 1994, a British citizen was killed in Zenica. Paul

13 Godal. He was a humanitarian. I was part of a team that had been formed

14 by the military security and the Zenica security and the state security

15 service. Since we had certain indications on the identity of the

16 perpetrator or, rather, we knew which car had been used when the crime was

17 committed, when this car appeared in town again, five or six foreigners

18 were arrested, and we managed to establish the identity of the murderer of

19 this man.

20 The case was processed by the civilian organs and by the courts,

21 and he was sentenced to prison.

22 Q. Now I would like to ask you about something entirely different.

23 In the course of your duties that involved police work within the military

24 security service, did you at any point in time receive the task to go to

25 Bugojno; and if so, when did this happen and why did you go there?

Page 14960












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13 English transcripts.













Page 14961

1 A. Well, when the conflict in Bugojno ended in the second half of

2 August 1993, my superior officer, Mr. Dugalic, ordered me and my colleague

3 from the service to go to Bugojno and to take note of the situation up

4 there. Since we knew that a number of HVO members had been arrested in

5 Bugojno and the chief of security had previously been present in Bugojno,

6 and since these were the policies of the 3rd Corps to move all those

7 prisoners to the centre in Zenica, the prisoner centre in Zenica, we went

8 to the site to see why these individuals were not being transferred to the

9 prison centre in Zenica.

10 Q. Before you went to Bugojno, did you know how and why this conflict

11 broke out? Was it a planned operation of the ABiH or the conflict in that

12 time -- in that town, did the conflict in the town between the army and

13 the ABiH arise in some different way?

14 A. According to the information we had in the corps, and we didn't

15 have complete information, although Zenica and Bugojno are not far from

16 each other, at the time in 1993, Bugojno was too far from Zenica, and

17 going to Bugojno from Zenica was an adventure at that time. It meant

18 risking one's life.

19 I've now forgotten what your question was. Could you repeat it,

20 please.

21 Q. Did you know whether this operation in Bugojno was planned or do

22 you know how this conflict broke out?

23 A. According to the little information we had, and especially when I

24 arrived there, I gained an idea of what had actually happened in Bugojno.

25 Given what we heard in Bugojno, HVO members in Bugojno, in Vrbanja and the

Page 14962

1 village of Bristovi established checkpoints. When army members saw that

2 they established checkpoints there without having agreed on this with the

3 ABiH, they established their own checkpoints in the vicinity of the HVO

4 checkpoints.

5 Soon afterwards, at one of the checkpoints, there was a skirmish,

6 a clash. Two HVO members were killed. A Zenica commission was

7 established to investigate the matter, and when negotiations were held

8 with regard to the incident, HVO members arrested three members of the

9 Bosniak negotiation team, and this is how the conflict broke out.

10 Q. You said that a large number of individuals were arrested, and

11 when the chief went there, this is what he established. According to your

12 information, were there any prisons in Bugojno in which all these

13 individuals could be detained, and do you know where they were? Did you

14 have any information on where they were initially held?

15 A. As I said, the conflict broke out suddenly, and on the Bosniak

16 side, no one had planned that conflict. So we didn't have premises for

17 prisoners in advance, but the War Presidency in Bugojno designated the

18 primary school, the furniture salon, and a few other places, the sports

19 hall and a few other places as places where these individuals could be

20 detained.

21 Q. What were the policies of the 3rd Corps Command with regard to

22 POWs, and were there any orders from the 3rd Corps Command to that effect?

23 A. The 3rd Corps Command issued very strict orders. It stated that

24 the Geneva Conventions should be strictly adhered to as far as the

25 treatment of POWs was concerned. All the units in the territory of the

Page 14963

1 3rd Corps strictly adhered to those rules, and as far as I know, none of

2 the Geneva Conventions, none of the provisions of the Geneva Conventions

3 were violated.

4 Q. Where were those prisoners to be taken, according to the policies

5 of the 3rd Corps Command, and where were they accommodated?

6 A. The central place was the centre for POWs in Zenica, which was in

7 the KP Dom in Zenica, which had existed there since the Austro-Hungarian

8 times. That institution had been created for those purposes, and that

9 building was secured by the 3rd Battalion of the military police of the

10 3rd Corps. All the conditions existed there for the safe detention of

11 detainees. It was possible to visit them. The International Red Cross

12 could visit them, members of the clergy could visit them, et cetera.

13 Q. When you arrived in Bugojno, did you try to find out any

14 information from your colleague about the matters you have just been

15 discussing about the treatment of the prisoners, the arrested HVO members,

16 and were the commander's orders fully obeyed?

17 A. When I arrived in Bugojno, we visited our colleague from the local

18 unit, from the 307th Brigade, and naturally we asked about the situation

19 in the centres that had been established for POWs.

20 He mentioned an incident. He said that two members of the local

21 unit of the 307th Brigade who were from the village of Vrbanja and whose

22 entire families had been killed by HVO members, he said that these men

23 entered the furniture salon and beat up a number of arrested HVO members.

24 As a result of the beatings, one of these men died.

25 We asked him what he had done about this. He arrested or

Page 14964

1 imprisoned these individuals and instituted legal proceedings against

2 them.

3 Q. With regard to what your colleague said about the 307th Brigade,

4 did you inform the 3rd Corps Command of what he had told you?

5 A. When we returned from Bugojno, we drafted a written report and we

6 informed our superior officer of the incident.

7 Q. Mr. Muratovic, did you at any point in time have any doubts about

8 what your colleague had said; namely, that the perpetrators had been

9 arrested and proceedings had been instituted against them?

10 A. No, I never doubted what my colleague had told me.

11 Q. What sort of answers did you receive with regard to the necessity

12 of transferring detainees to the prison centre in Zenica?

13 A. Since we're talking about a large number of prisoners,

14 approximately 400 people, at that point, in my opinion, it was an

15 impossible operation to transfer in the wartime roads 400 people from

16 Bugojno to Zenica safely. It was almost impossible. In order to transfer

17 about 400 people, you would need about ten buses. The road from Bugojno

18 to Zenica in several places was not passable by bus. It was only possible

19 to go past there in special vehicles. It would perhaps have been possible

20 also to have trucks do that, but as far as I know, a couple of the trucks

21 were inoperative. So it was not possible to organise that.

22 From my own aspect, the aspect of security, this was something

23 that was not doable.

24 Q. When you were in Bugojno, did you find out about other proposals

25 in Bugojno at the time regarding the safety of these prisoners?

Page 14965

1 A. When we were in Bugojno at that time, a number of Croatian

2 intellectuals from Bugojno started an initiative, or they asked that these

3 prisoners remain where they are, to stay in Bugojno, because in their

4 opinion there was no need for them to be transferred to Zenica at all. It

5 was easier to handle all of those people in Bugojno than to transfer them

6 to Zenica under those circumstances. And I was there and I could see that

7 it was possible that each of those individuals could go home in the course

8 of the day and they could take baths, clean themselves, change clothes and

9 so on.

10 Q. You said later that you found out that -- I apologise, but my

11 colleague is warning me that on pages 22 to 24, there is a question --

12 actually, it's on page 31, lines 20 to 24, that there is something that is

13 unclear, so I will ask you about that again.

14 You said that your colleague from the 307th Brigade informed you

15 that some people broke into the furniture salon?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. A couple of members of that brigade. You also mentioned who those

18 people were. You said what had happened to them so that they reacted in

19 this manner. Can you please repeat that part of the answer. Could you

20 tell us again what your colleague told us, because obviously it was not

21 precisely translated.

22 A. Two members of the 307th Brigade, meaning those whose complete

23 families were killed by members of the HVO in the village of Vrbanja,

24 broke into the furniture salon, and they beat up several members of the

25 HVO. One of the members of the HVO succumbed as a result of that beating.

Page 14966

1 Q. Well, now it's clear. Could you please, since you found out that

2 these trucks that were prepared, that were out of service and because of

3 that it was not possible to transfer these people to Zenica, do you know

4 if anyone did, and if they did, who decided that all of those prisoners be

5 placed in a certain location?

6 A. As far as I know and from what my colleague in Bugojno told me,

7 the War Presidency of the Bugojno municipality and probably the

8 suggestions from the Croat intellectuals all together made the decision on

9 the establishment of a POW centre in Bugojno which was set up on the Iskra

10 soccer stadium in Bugojno, and this is where these people were put. They

11 were not transferred to Zenica.

12 Q. Could you please tell us, after your visit to Bugojno and after

13 you talked with your colleagues, did you tour some other areas during that

14 particular visit to your colleagues in subordinated units?

15 A. When I went to Bugojno, on that occasion I also visited a unit of

16 the 17th Krajina Brigade in Travnik. This unit was running a prison which

17 was in the barracks in the town of Travnik. And on that occasion, my

18 colleague and myself visited prisoner Ivan or Ivica -- Ivan or Ivica

19 Josipovic - I don't know his name exactly - who happened to be there.

20 That individual, while under the influence of alcohol, came to the

21 checkpoint of the 17th Krajina Brigade. He didn't know where he was, and

22 he behaved in an insolent way. They tried to check his identification, he

23 put up resistance, and then he sustained some injuries.

24 Following medical treatment, this person was taken to the prison

25 in Travnik. My colleague who was with me together on that Zenica-Bugojno

Page 14967

1 road knew this person personally and he requested, he insisted that we

2 visit him.

3 We sent to see him. He didn't have any complaints at all to the

4 way he was being treated in the prison. This was my first time in the

5 Travnik prison, and I was surprised at the conditions in the prison. They

6 were more than good. Other than Josipovic, there were two other persons

7 in the prison. One person, whose last name was Bonic, he's a person who

8 is under age, or 18 years old at the most, who was found to have in his

9 possession an ear that had been cut off from a person. We found him in

10 the cell. He was lying on the bunk and reading a book. He was not being

11 abused or mistreated in anyway.

12 There was another person there, a person whose surname was

13 Baskarada. He was also lying on his bunk-bed in the cell, and he wasn't

14 having any kind of trouble either.

15 Q. Were you interested in the way those three or any other people

16 were being treated? Was it possible for them to communicate with the

17 International Committee of the Red Cross or did they have any objections

18 to the way the prison was being run?

19 A. The detainees in Travnik and Bugojno had no complaints about the

20 way they were being treated in prison. Members of the ICRC regularly

21 visited these individuals, and my colleague from the 17th Krajina also

22 showed us a document from the ICRC where they were commending the

23 situation as it was, as they had found it in the Travnik prison following

24 a check they did.

25 Q. That person who had put up resistance at the checkpoint and who

Page 14968

1 had sustained some injuries and then after that he was given medical

2 treatment, did you try to find out whether your colleagues conducted an

3 investigation of that incident? Because Josipovic did need medical

4 assistance.

5 A. Of course I asked my colleagues what had happened and what he did

6 regarding this matter regardless of the way Josipovic behaved, regardless

7 of his insolent behaviour. These two police officers from the 17th

8 Krajina Brigade were subjected to disciplinary sanctions because of their

9 conduct, and they were punished because of their conduct by their

10 commander.

11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Muratovic.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

13 Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. It's quarter to

15 four. We'll resume at about ten past four, and then I will give the floor

16 to the other Defence team, after which the Prosecution will start with

17 their cross-examination. We will then resume at ten past four.

18 Mr. Mundis, is there anything would you like to say?

19 MR. MUNDIS: Yes, if I could, Mr. President. Perhaps if I could

20 do this in the absence of the witness.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Usher, could you

22 escort the witness out the courtroom.

23 Witness, you'll have a 20 or 25-minute break now.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, you may take the

Page 14969

1 floor.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. I am cognisant of the

3 time. Mr. President, we've raised this issue before. It concerns the

4 adequacy of the Rule 65 ter summaries. As is clear from a review of this

5 summary in light of the witness's testimony, this witness testified with

6 respect to a number of very important issues to this trial that are not

7 covered in this summary. In particular, he talked about

8 counter-intelligence, monitoring the Mujahedin, monitoring the Turkish

9 guerilla, the method of dealing with these groups, a number of issues that

10 are not contained in this summary, nor were we notified about this as I

11 have raised this issue before by our colleagues in terms of being prepared

12 for this. We are not prepared, nor can we be prepared during the course

13 of 20 to 25 minutes to cross-examine this witness on these very important

14 issues.

15 I have a couple of proposed ways of going forward. We can either

16 respectfully ask for additional time to prepare for our cross-examination.

17 Alternatively, we could move on to the next witness for direct and

18 commence the cross of this witness tomorrow.

19 At any rate, in light of this, I am certainly advising the Defence

20 that we are likely to have a number of additional or new documents which

21 we may need to show this witness during the course of our

22 cross-examination. We will provide those, at least notice of those

23 documents to the Defence as quickly as possible, but it is extremely

24 likely that we will have a number of new documents to present to this

25 witness with respect to those issues that were not covered in the 65 ter

Page 14970

1 summary.

2 My colleague Mr. Neuner will be doing the cross. He says he needs

3 probably an hour at a minimum to prepare his cross-examination. We can

4 either move on to the next witness or we're going to need an hour at a

5 minimum to prepare to cross this witness.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Yes. Defence

7 counsel. I do have the summary, and there are certain issues mentioned --

8 which were mentioned and which aren't contained in the summary, and there

9 is another issue that wasn't mentioned. There was the issue of the Guca

10 Gora monastery in the summary but nothing was said about that in the

11 examination.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, so far what I

13 wanted to say is that what this witness has said is in the summary. It is

14 true that in this morning's conversation with this witness my information

15 about his visit to Guca Gora were not correct, that is obvious, and for

16 those reasons I could not cover that question with him. However, I worked

17 late and perhaps I should have informed my colleagues at half past twelve

18 that I was going to deal with different questions, because I found out

19 that this witness knew something about the operative measures about which

20 we talked about with yesterday's witness. This time it is a shortcoming

21 of the Defence, and I accept that we can move to question the next witness

22 and that my learned friends on the other side prepare to cross-examine

23 this witness tomorrow.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Instead of telling

25 the witness to wait, it would be best for him to come back. We'll say

Page 14971

1 that we're now releasing him, in inverted commas, and he will come back

2 tomorrow.

3 Mr. Usher, could you please call the witness back into the

4 courtroom.

5 I've been told that the second witness should arrive around 4.00.

6 That would be very convenient since we'll be resuming at about ten past

7 four.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: We could then resume

9 at about 4.30.

10 [The witness takes the stand]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I've asked you to return

12 because certain procedural issues have been raised, and as a result the

13 Prosecution will cross-examine you tomorrow. You will have to return

14 tomorrow at 9.00 in the morning. You may now leave, have a walk, but you

15 should come back for the hearing at 9.00 tomorrow. Since you have taken

16 the solemn declaration you are now a witness who is testifying in the

17 interests of justice so you shouldn't see either of the parties. You

18 shouldn't meet members of the Prosecution or Defence counsel in the

19 meantime.

20 You may now leave, enjoy the afternoon, and we will see you

21 tomorrow.

22 We will now have our break, and we will resume at about 4.25 or

23 half past four.

24 [The witness stands down]

25 --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.

Page 14972

1 --- On resuming at 4.27 p.m.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We are continuing

3 with the hearing. Before the next witness comes in, I would like to ask

4 the registrar to say something, who will give us a number of corrections

5 now.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you. Two corrections and

7 one clarification.

8 The first correction refers to Defence document DH1880, which has

9 been admitted, and it's not DH8880. The second correction: DH1064 ID,

10 and not 1604 ID. So these are the two corrections.

11 Besides that, I would like to clarify the following: Prosecution

12 Exhibit P724 contains two documents. One is an order with internal

13 marking 226/93. And the second part of the document is an order bearing

14 the internal marking 226/93.

15 Thank you, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I would now like to

17 ask the usher to bring in the witness.

18 How much time do you think you will need for this witness?

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Less than an hour, Mr. President,

20 but now since you're asking, I think that Witness HD should not be called

21 to the courtroom tomorrow. I don't think that that's realistic since we

22 will continue to -- the testimony of Mr. Muratovic. I don't know how

23 things will go with Mr. Zlotrg. We also have Ragib Hodzic also, so I

24 think it would be a good idea to inform you today that Witness HD will

25 not be appearing tomorrow.

Page 14973

1 [The witness entered court]


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, sir. First of

5 all, I would like to be sure that you're hearing the interpretation of

6 what I'm saying in your own language. If so, could you please tell me, "I

7 hear you and I understand you."

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I hear you and I understand you.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called as a

10 witness by the Defence. Before giving the solemn oath, I would like you

11 to introduce yourself. Tell us your first and last name, date and place

12 of birth.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Edib Zlotrg, 21st of October, 1958,

14 in Nova Bila, municipality of Travnik.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, are you employed? What is

16 your profession?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I worked in the Ministry of

18 Internal Affairs as a crime technician.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993; were you

20 working on some specific job; and if you were, what was that job?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was working in the Ministry of

22 Internal Affairs. It was a public security station Vitez, actually, where

23 I was working, and I was working as a forensics technician.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This applies to 1992 and 1993;

25 is that correct?

Page 14974

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I worked in this post until the

2 outbreak of the conflict in Vitez, until the 16th of April, 1993, when I

3 was arrested by members of the Croatian Defence Council.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And after 1993,

5 after you were arrested, did you then move to some other job?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1993, in late May I was in the

7 3rd Corps Command, working in the security service.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Could you

9 please tell us, did you ever testify before any state or international

10 court before about the events in your country in 1992 and 1993 or is this

11 the first time that you're appearing in such a court?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I testified here in The Hague

13 on several occasions.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And when you

15 testified here in The Hague, did you testify as a witness for the

16 Prosecution or a witness for the Defence; and in which cases did you

17 testify, if you remember?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I testified as a Prosecution witness

19 in the case -- in the Aleksovski case; Santic, Josipovic and Kupreskic

20 case; the Cerkez case; and I don't know, perhaps there were some other

21 cases, but I cannot remember that.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. How many times have

23 you been here before?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this is my fifth or sixth

25 time.

Page 14975












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Page 14976

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Fifth or sixth time. Very well.

2 When you testified, did you ask for any protective measures or did you

3 testify in open session?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I always testified in open session.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. And now I would like

6 to ask you to read the solemn oath for the fifth or sixth time. You

7 probably know it by heart.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

9 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, sir. You

11 may sit down.

12 And as you know, you are familiar with these proceedings, I will

13 just give you a couple of very brief clarifications. You will respond to

14 questions from the Defence - you have already met with the Defence - and

15 when they complete their questioning, then you will be responding to

16 questions put by the Prosecution, who are to your right. They will be

17 cross-examining you. After that, the Defence will have another

18 opportunity to ask you questions. After that, the Trial Chamber members

19 might be asking you questions, or in the course of your testimony, in case

20 we need further clarification or if we believe that you did not touch upon

21 any topics that we think you should have talked about and that these

22 topics are important in the interests of justice, then we may also ask you

23 questions.

24 It can also happen that the parties to the left and to the right,

25 in the course of your testimony, show you some documents and ask you to

Page 14977

1 provide them with your opinion. I would like to draw your attention to

2 two important things. You have said that you will speak the truth, so

3 false testimony is out of the question. I don't need to go into detail

4 about that. You are probably very familiar with your duties as a witness.

5 Another thing: As part of our proceedings, when a witness in

6 answering a question thinks that this answer could some day be used

7 against him, that he could incriminate himself, in that case the witness

8 could refuse to answer such a question. This has not happened to us in

9 these proceedings, but if such a thing did happen, the Trial Chamber could

10 tell the witness to answer this question but to extend some kind of

11 immunity to him. All of this -- the objective of all of this is to

12 establish the truth, that a witness who speaks the truth in answering the

13 question is able to express himself freely.

14 If the questions seem too complicated or complex, you can ask the

15 person asking the question to rephrase them. As you know, we have breaks.

16 We will have one break before the end of the hearing today. If the

17 parties keep their promises regarding the time they require for your

18 testimony, your testimony will be completed this evening. If it continues

19 beyond that, then you will have to come back tomorrow.

20 This is all that you need to know about the proceedings today.

21 Now I'm giving the floor to the attorney who will be questioning you.

22 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zlotrg, I would like to ask you, once I put

24 the question to you, to make a slight pause before you begin answering so

25 that the interpreters could interpret everything that you are saying, so

Page 14978

1 that the Trial Chamber and all the parties in the courtroom could follow

2 your testimony. Did you understand me?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You said that you're a forensics expert. What were your duties on

5 the 6th of April, 1992, when the JNA and the Serbian forces attacked

6 Bosnia and Herzegovina?

7 A. I was working in the public security station in Vitez as a

8 forensics expert.

9 Q. Before the war, did you serve in the JNA and did you have any

10 rank?

11 A. Yes. I was a reserve private.

12 Q. You said that you were in the public security station until the

13 16th of April. Why did your duty stop working as a public security

14 station employee in Vitez?

15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The rank is warrant

16 officer.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 16th of April there was a

18 general attack by the HVO on Vitez, and since I was in the town, in my

19 apartment, I was arrested in the apartment and taken to the cultural hall

20 where my other friends and neighbours were also brought in. They were all

21 of Muslim ethnicity.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Up until when were you held prisoner, and where were you held

24 throughout your period of imprisonment?

25 A. I was in the cultural centre for a few days. One evening, at

Page 14979

1 about -- on or about the 27th or 28th of April, military policemen

2 appeared and they took us away. They took four or five of us from the

3 cultural centre away, and from other places where they were detaining

4 Bosniaks. We were taken to dig trenches. And instead of going to dig

5 trenches that evening, we went ended up in a prison in Kaonik and on the

6 following day we were taken to dig trenches.

7 When an exchange had been agreed on an all-for-all basis, the 13

8 of us were placed in the chess club premises, and when UNPROFOR members

9 found us, we were transferred to the Kaonik prison, probably to conceal

10 us.

11 On the 16th of May -- this is what they did when -- when the

12 UNPROFOR found our traces.

13 On the 15th of May, our exchange was agreed on, and on the 16th,

14 16 Bosniaks were exchanged. That was the first exchange between the army

15 and the HVO in Poculica.

16 Q. Thank you. You said that after the exchange in the second half of

17 May you became a member of the 3rd Corps Command. You were in the

18 military security service. Have I understood you correctly?

19 A. Yes. A few days after the exchange, I became a member of the

20 military security service in the 3rd Corps Command.

21 Q. You used to work in the civilian police and later in the military

22 security service. Mr. Zlotrg, could you briefly tell us what sort of

23 tasks the military security service was involved in.

24 A. Well, I'll try to. In November 1993, I was demobilised. I

25 returned to the place. A lot of time has passed since then, but on the

Page 14980

1 whole the military security service and the state security service in the

2 armed forces was involved in the protection of staffs, commands,

3 institutions, buildings used by the armed forces to prepare the armed

4 forces. So all these tasks involved security for the armed forces.

5 Q. The work in the security service of the 3rd Corps, while you were

6 there was it divided into certain fields, certain areas; and if so, which

7 areas was the security service of the 3rd Corps involved in?

8 A. The 3rd Corps security service was mainly involved in

9 counter-intelligence, providing staff security and carrying out military

10 police tasks.

11 Q. Since you have just mentioned the tasks of the military police,

12 tell me, what was the attitude of the military security service towards

13 the 3rd Corps military police battalion? What was the relation between

14 the two?

15 A. On the whole they would supervise them or, rather, help them to

16 train. They would assess military policemen and, naturally, were also

17 responsible for the work of the military police and the way in which MP

18 units were engaged.

19 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, tell me, who was your immediate superior officer in

20 the military security service of the 3rd Corps?

21 A. Ramiz Dugalic.

22 Q. And who was the service directly accountable to?

23 A. The service was directly accountable to the Ministry of the

24 Interior and the Supreme Commander and to the command of the 3rd Corps, if

25 the superior officer thought it was necessary to inform this person of the

Page 14981

1 tasks carried out by the security service.

2 Q. Given your answer, or in light of your answer, could you provide

3 me some clarifications. Did the military security service have just one

4 line of command or a number of chains of command?

5 A. Yes, there were two chains of command. One was based on command

6 responsibility and the other was based on security affairs.

7 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, but who was, in the end, in charge of the entire

8 security service given this dual chain of command? Did this dual chain of

9 command go right up to the top or was this chain of command united at some

10 point?

11 A. Well, there was the Ministry of Defence and the Supreme Commander.

12 These were the individuals who had final authority.

13 Q. What sort of right did a commander of a lower unit, a battalion or

14 a brigade or a corps, have to know about your work?

15 A. Only if the superior officer from the military security service

16 thought that it would be appropriate to provide a subordinate unit with

17 information only in such cases did a subordinate unit have such authority.

18 Q. Were there any fields of work that a commander of a lower unit

19 could not be made familiar with without your approval? Were there any --

20 was there any information, any methods, et cetera, that were planned

21 within the service as a professional organ from the bottom to the top?

22 Perhaps I haven't been sufficiently clear. You said there were a number

23 of fields, counter-intelligence, policework, et cetera. Were there any

24 fields in which a commander of a lower unit -- to which a commander of a

25 lower unit had no access?

Page 14982

1 A. Yes, that was the counter-intelligence service.

2 Q. Tell me, what was the relation -- what was the attitude of your

3 military security service towards the organs of military security in

4 subordinate units?

5 A. We assisted members of the security services in subordinate units.

6 We supervised them. They reported to their superiors. They were

7 accountable to their superiors, and they were accountable to the chief of

8 the security service.

9 Q. What fields were you engaged in on the whole while you were in the

10 security service in the 3rd Corps?

11 A. Since I came from the police, I spent most of my time working on

12 military police matters.

13 Q. Please tell me, what sort of policies did the 3rd Corps pursue

14 with regard to prosecuting individuals who had committed crimes? Was the

15 position of the 3rd Corps clear with regard to how you in the security

16 service should treat perpetrators of crimes?

17 A. They had a clear position: All perpetrators of crimes had to be

18 punished.

19 Q. Awhile ago you said that for a certain period of time you were a

20 prisoner and now you have just said that you were involved in military

21 police matters. While you were involved in such work, did you ever think

22 that while working with prisoners or others you were perhaps treating them

23 in a way that was vengeful or were you acting in accordance with orders

24 that had been issued?

25 A. No, I never found myself in such a situation. I'd been through

Page 14983

1 such a calvary myself, and I lost my brother and his wife in these events,

2 and I wouldn't want anyone to suffer the same fate.

3 Q. With regard to prisoners of war held by the ABiH, was it quite

4 clear to you in the security service -- were you quite clear about the

5 policies of the 3rd Corps and the policies of its commander as far as the

6 treatment of POWs was concerned?

7 A. Yes. We were to respect the Geneva Conventions and abide by the

8 laws of war.

9 Q. As part of those policies, did the 3rd Corps have certain premises

10 where POWs could be kept? If prisoners were captured in the course of

11 combat, was it known where they should be taken, and if there was such

12 prisoners sent to institution, where was it and what was it like?

13 A. Yes. There was a centre for POWs in Zenica on the premises of the

14 Zenica KP Dom, the Zenica penal and correctional facility. The position

15 was that the Geneva Conventions should be respected. As I had been in

16 prison, as I had been in an HVO prison, and since I had worked with the

17 detained HVO members, I can tell you that I received food in Busovaca once

18 a day. It was insipid food, and as a member of the command, I would also

19 eat stale bread. But when I went to the KP Dom premises, they had

20 electricity there. They had a TV. They had three meals a day. I didn't

21 have any electricity in my flat; they had electricity around the clock.

22 They had an area where they could go out for a walk, so they had the

23 conditions for a normal life. It was as if they were staying in a hotel

24 if compared to the premises I was kept in when I was in Kaonik.

25 Q. Thank you. Mr. Zlotrg, please tell me whether you received

Page 14984

1 complaints from international organisations or the ICRC. Did you receive

2 any complaints about the treatment of the prisoners held by the army in

3 the KP Dom?

4 A. No. On the contrary; they were always content.

5 Q. I would now like to ask you whether in the course of your duties

6 in the military security service you received the task of going to

7 Bugojno. If you did, why did you go there and when did you go there?

8 A. Yes. I was given the task of going to Bugojno after the clash

9 between the HVO and the ABiH. Prior to that, Dugalic had been in Bugojno,

10 and we were assigned the task of going to see how his orders were being

11 implemented, the orders that he had issued when he was there.

12 Q. Before you went to Bugojno or while you were there, did you

13 receive any information on the cause of the conflict in Bugojno? Was this

14 a planned military operation of the ABiH or did this conflict break out in

15 some other way? Did you have any information about this?

16 A. Before I went to Bugojno, we had some information but only the

17 information that we had received through regular reports that the

18 assistant commanders for military security and units had sent to the 3rd

19 Corps Command.

20 Upon arriving in Bugojno, since I have quite a lot of relatives

21 there, I spoke to them and everything fitted in. The conflict broke out

22 in a place called Vrbanja after HVO members had set up a checkpoint. On

23 that occasion, they captured three policemen, if I'm not mistaken, and a

24 couple of army members. Then later on, the ABiH established a checkpoint

25 a little further down below and an incident broke out and that's how the

Page 14985

1 ball started rolling.

2 Q. As far as you know, before you arrived in Bugojno, or when you

3 arrived there, was there a prison where individuals who had been arrested

4 in the course of the conflict could be held or, rather, do you know where

5 these individuals were held?

6 A. There wasn't a prison there. There were a number of buildings

7 which were appropriate for the accommodation of a large number of people

8 at that point in time.

9 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, did you receive any information as to who had

10 designated those buildings or the governor -- or who had designated a

11 governor for those premises where those individuals were kept?

12 A. Yes. We spoke to the assistant commander of the Donji Vakuf

13 brigade, I think it's the 307th, Mr. Handzic. We also spoke to the

14 assistant commander for security of the Operations Group, and they told us

15 that the War Presidency of the Bugojno municipality had designated these

16 buildings and appointed governors.

17 Q. Since you said earlier on that there was a centre for POWs in

18 Zenica, tell me whether your colleagues to whom you spoke, the colleagues

19 you just mentioned, told you anything about how they intended to transfer

20 those arrested individuals to the centre in Zenica. Did the technical and

21 security conditions exist for such a transfer?

22 A. Yes. We spoke about this, and they said that they tried to

23 organise a convoy. However, the vehicles were faulty, so they had to

24 postpone this. While we were up there, this was supposed to be carried

25 out, this transfer was supposed to take place. But I think that it was

Page 14986

1 technically impossible to organise a convoy of prisoners and send it to

2 Zenica, because a number of sections of the road were under sniper fire

3 and in the range of the artillery. So the consequences of such a transfer

4 could have been quite negative.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would now like to

6 show a number of documents to the witness when I ask -- when I put some

7 new questions to the witness. Could these documents be distributed to my

8 colleagues in the courtroom, to the Chamber, and to the witness.

9 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, could you please look at the document that is under

10 tab 4. It's 1391 on the document. That's the number. Have you found it?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. This is an information from the 17th of August, 1993. Do you have

13 information that your service received, information that it was not

14 possible to transfer the prisoners to Zenica for the reasons which are

15 given in this information?

16 A. At the time we were out in the field, and on the 17th of August we

17 happened to be in Bugojno, and that's when Mr. Dzafic told us that it was

18 not possible to transfer the prisoners. And we told him that only those

19 persons who had been charged, about whom there were indications that they

20 had committed a criminal act and who were supposed to held responsible for

21 that, and I think this is perhaps about 20 or 25 people that were in this

22 category. When we were there, we found out that the War Presidency had

23 already found a place to accommodate the rest of the prisoners - this was

24 the area just below the Iskra stadium - and that they were already in the

25 process of negotiations with the Croatian Defence Council to exchange

Page 14987

1 these individuals, unfortunately.

2 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, earlier you were talking about the causes of the

3 conflict about which you had certain information that you found out about

4 when you came to Bugojno. Could you please look at documents under

5 numbers 1 and 2. Under 1 is a document 1320, and this is a document by

6 the 317th Brigade. And document DH1319, which was sent to the command of

7 the 3rd Corps.

8 So could you please tell me whether these documents in fact

9 reflect the information that you received in that period about the causes

10 of the conflict in Bugojno.

11 A. Yes. This is mostly the same as the things that we found out

12 while we were in that area, in the area of Bugojno.

13 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, since you also met with the assistant security

14 commander of the OG and the 307th, were you trying to find out what their

15 -- how these prisoners were being treated and whether there were any

16 incidents?

17 A. One of our tasks was also to see how the prisoners of war were

18 being treated. We also know that our chief, Mr. Dugalic, instructed that

19 the Geneva Conventions be strictly adhered to, including how they should

20 treat the prisoners of war. So the assistant commander of the 307th

21 Brigade informed us that there was an incident in which two members of the

22 army entered certain premises and beat up six members of the HVO, one of

23 whom succumbed as a result, unfortunately.

24 He also informed us that those two persons were arrested and that

25 they were being charged, that they had been charged for their actions.

Page 14988

1 Q. In view of the fact that you worked in the military security

2 service, was this the proper way in which the military unit -- military

3 police unit was supposed to react at the point in time when its members

4 committed some kind of impermissible act or a criminal act in particular?

5 A. Yes. They acted in accordance with the law and their

6 competencies.

7 Q. Did you at any time have any doubts about what the assistant

8 commander for security told you?

9 A. No, we did not. There was no reason for us to doubt anything that

10 he said. He could have not told us anything at all about it, but he did.

11 Q. I would now like you to look at the document under number 3.

12 That's DH63 ID. A little earlier you said that you knew that the War

13 Presidency appointed a temporary administrator for these temporary

14 facilities where the prisoners of war were located. Could you please tell

15 me whether this is a document which in fact confirms what you found out

16 from the colleagues whom you met in Bugojno?

17 A. Yes, that is it. We found out that the War Presidency formed

18 these -- or established these areas to keep HVO members in detention and

19 that they appointed an administrator.

20 Q. Could you please look at document under number 6, document number

21 DH176 ID. It's a little bit difficult to see. Are you able to read this

22 document? This is a decision of the War Presidency, setting up the Iskra

23 stadium as a temporary detention facility of civilian and military

24 persons.

25 Could you please tell me whether this decision coincides with the

Page 14989

1 information that you got in Bugojno that the War Presidency was looking

2 for a way to place all these prisoners in one place.

3 A. Yes. I said earlier that on the 17th and the 18th we were in

4 Bugojno, and that's when we were informed that the War Presidency had

5 found a place to locate these prisoners, and this document indicates that

6 this was carried out.

7 Q. Could you please look at paragraph 4 of this decision. Can you

8 read it, please, if you're able to see it properly.

9 A. Yes, very well.

10 Q. It states that this decision goes into effect on the day of its

11 adoption and the Executive Council of the municipality of Bugojno, the

12 command of the 307th Motorised Brigade, and the command of the staff of

13 the defence of Bugojno are responsible for the implementation of this

14 decision. Is that what it states?

15 A. Yes, it does.

16 Q. Could you please tell me whether it is customary that the War

17 Presidency issues tasks to units of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

18 A. At the time, the War Presidency was the main logistics body for

19 the armed forces, so the War Presidency of the Bugojno municipality

20 supplied all the units with all the materiel and equipment they required,

21 and they probably took it upon themselves, felt it was their right since

22 they were financing them also to issue decisions such as this one.

23 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, could you please tell me, since you worked in a

24 security organ, how much influence and what were your options as far as

25 control of events in Bugojno is concerned.

Page 14990












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 14991

1 A. I've already said before that it was very risky to go to Bugojno

2 at all, because there was only one possible road for Bugojno, and on

3 several sections it was under constant sniper fire, and on several places

4 was within range of artillery. So when you set out to Bugojno, you never

5 knew if you would reach it alive and if you would reach it at all. That

6 was one of the difficulties.

7 The other thing is the army did not have enough fuel to pull out

8 the wounded, never mind fuel to send people to Bugojno. We were in touch

9 with them and knew what was happening there only through our means of

10 communications and through reports which the security organs there sent to

11 the superior command, and that was something that the command of the 3rd

12 Corps had access to. It took 24 hours to travel to Bugojno.

13 Q. If I am not mistaken, you said that your colleague informed you

14 about what happened in one case. Could you please tell us where this

15 incident took place and whether these measures -- whether you were

16 informed about these measures and whether you in turn informed your

17 command about those measures.

18 A. Which incident are we talking about?

19 Q. I'm talking about when you were talking about the Geneva

20 Conventions. Didn't your colleague inform you about an incident that took

21 place?

22 A. Yes, yes. I already said that. He informed us also about the

23 measures they took to punish the perpetrators. When we came back to the

24 command, we made an Official Note and passed it up to the commander of the

25 3rd Corps.

Page 14992

1 Q. I would now like to ask you to look at document under number 5.

2 That's the command of the 3rd Corps, security sector, dated the 18th of

3 August, 1993.

4 Could you please look at this document. At the end, in the copy

5 that I provided for you, it is not signed, but could you please tell me,

6 do you recognise this document? It's document 1392. Could you please

7 tell me, do you recognise this document?

8 A. Yes. This is the report that my colleague Muratovic and I drafted

9 after we returned from Bugojno.

10 Q. On page 3 of this document, does it -- is there a description of

11 what happened in Bugojno, and doesn't it state what you found out there?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Could you please tell me, Mr. Zlotrg, during that visit on that

14 day, did you visit any other detention facility?

15 A. Yes; the one in Travnik.

16 Q. Who did you talk with when you were there?

17 A. We went there to arrest Ivan Josipovic. This is a person that I

18 know very well. That same person worked in the regional police of the

19 Croatian Defence Council during the conflict, and he's the brother of

20 Vladimir Santic's wife, who, according to the information we had at the

21 time, commanded the unit that attacked Ahmici. And for that reason,

22 Josipovic was of interest to us. We wanted to see what his role was in

23 the attack on Ahmici, because several units of the military police took

24 part in the attack. And we also wanted to find out more about the role of

25 Vladimir Santic in all of that.

Page 14993

1 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, when you saw Mr. Josipovic, did he complain to you

2 about the way he was being treated in the detention of the 17th Krajina

3 Brigade, and did you find out how he ended up being there at all?

4 A. He did not complain. It was obvious that he had been physically

5 mistreated, but all of that happened during the arrest itself, because he

6 had gotten drunk in Busovaca and passed all the checkpoints and ended up

7 at a checkpoint of the B and H army near Travnik.

8 Since he was in the regional police crimes department, he was some

9 kind of superior there, and he thought that this was an HVO checkpoint, he

10 resisted arrest. And during the arrest, he sustained several blows.

11 When he was arrested, the members of the military police there did

12 not abuse him.

13 Q. Could you please tell me that at that time when you were talking

14 to the military police members, did you receive any information about

15 whether there was an investigation about that incident at the checkpoint

16 and whether they found any grounds to prosecute the military police there?

17 A. Yes. We talked about the assistant security commander of the

18 Krajina Brigade, Mr. Grudic, and we told him that the Geneva Conventions

19 had to be respected. We used to draw attention to this and that it was

20 necessary to treat the prisoners humanely any time we made any such

21 visits. This person informed us about the circumstances of the arrest,

22 and he informed us that the two police officers who had taken part in the

23 physical abuse - actually, it wasn't a question of abuse, it was a

24 question of using excessive force during arrest - that these people had

25 been -- these two individuals had been charged for their conduct.

Page 14994

1 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, could you please tell us whether you toured that

2 facility and what the conditions were in that detention location.

3 A. Yes. We went around it. We found two other persons from Vitez

4 there. They didn't have any complaints about they were being -- about

5 how they were being treated there either by members of the military

6 police, although during the arrest of one of those persons an ear that had

7 been cut off was found on that person, a human ear.

8 Q. When you were talking to members of the 17th Krajina Brigade, did

9 you find out whether the ICRC had access to this detention facility and

10 whether they had any complaints to make regarding the conduct towards the

11 prisoners who were there?

12 A. Yes. Grudic informed us that the ICRC had access to that

13 facility, and he even said that they had been -- they had received some

14 kind of commendation from the ICRC.

15 Q. This visit of yours, did you make a report about it to your

16 superior commander?

17 A. The report of the 18th of August also touches upon that visit to

18 the Travnik prison.

19 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Zlotrg.

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

21 questions for this witness.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Before the break,

23 does the other Defence team have any questions?

24 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this

25 witness, Mr. President, thank you.

Page 14995

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I think it would be

2 best to have our break now, and we will resume at about ten to six. The

3 Prosecution will then have about one hour to cross-examine the witness,

4 and then the Defence will be able to re-examine the witness.

5 We'll now adjourn, and we will resume at ten to six.

6 --- Recess taken at 5.21 p.m.

7 --- On resuming at 5.52 p.m.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll now resume, and I give the

9 floor to the Prosecution.

10 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon,

11 Mr. President, good afternoon, Your Honours.

12 Cross-examined by Ms. Henry-Benjamin:

13 Q. Good afternoon, sir. Forgive me for not calling your name. I've

14 been practicing how to call it for days now and I still haven't got it

15 right. So I would want to refer to you as "sir," if you don't mind.

16 Thank you.

17 My name is Tecla Henry-Benjamin, and together with my colleague we

18 represent the Prosecution, as the President indicated to you earlier on.

19 My role here is to clarify certain things that came out of your

20 direct examination, and while doing so, if at any time you wish me to

21 repeat a question or to rephrase a question, feel free. Do not hesitate,

22 and I will oblige.

23 Now, you told us that you became a member of the security

24 department in -- sometime in mid-May of 1993. Could you tell us for how

25 long your tenure lasted, please.

Page 14996

1 A. I was demobilised from the army when General Hadzihasanovic ceased

2 to be the corps commander. That was in November 1993. And I returned to

3 the police force.

4 Q. And that would be for some mere six months, I take it. Could you

5 tell us what position you held in the security department.

6 A. As there were four or five of us in the military security service

7 at the time, we dealt with all matters, but most of my work related to

8 military police work.

9 Q. Thank you. Did there come a time during that period while you

10 were in the security department, did you also have another role? Did you

11 perform a dual role?

12 A. No. From the very beginning until I left, I worked in the

13 military security sector.

14 Q. At any time at all, were you ever involved in the exchanges of

15 POWs on behalf of the ABi 3rd Corps -- ABiH 3rd Corps? Were you ever a

16 liaison officer?

17 A. I organised an exchange, but not as a liaison officer. I was

18 assigned this task by my chief. I was assigned the task of getting the

19 family of the president of the Vitez War Presidency out of Vitez, and that

20 was the only occasion on which I was involved in an exchange.

21 Q. Now --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.


24 Q. In readiness for your position with the security department, did

25 you receive any training?

Page 14997

1 A. No, I didn't receive any training, because I had previously been

2 in the police force, and the chief at the time probably had confidence in

3 me given the work I had done in the police. But I must say that at the

4 time of Yugoslavia, I was in the reserve force of the state security for a

5 certain period of time. So it was probably on the basis of that

6 experience that I had that he engaged me as a member of the military

7 security service.

8 Q. In the course of your duties, did you have to perform interviews

9 with respect to detainees in the respective detention centres?

10 A. On the whole, I would interview detainees in the centre for POWs

11 in Zenica, and I can tell you that there was someone from the security

12 service in the centre every day and controlled the way that members of the

13 military police were treating the prisoners. I can also point out that it

14 was possible for families to visit the prisoners, and it was also possible

15 for the Red Cross to visit, as well as members of the peace mission.

16 Q. For purposes of the record, could you tell us the name of the

17 centre in Travnik that you're referring to, please?

18 A. No. I was talking about the centre for POWs in Zenica. I was

19 talking about this prison, and I said that we would supervise the

20 battalion of the military police there on a daily basis, because they were

21 in the town where the command of the corps was located. And a minute ago

22 I also said that communications were difficult because parts of the road

23 used to get to Travnik were under constant sniper fire. So I was only in

24 Travnik on one occasion, and I compiled a report on that occasion.

25 Q. Sir, if I were to understand you correctly, you only conducted

Page 14998

1 interviews once during your tenure in the security department, and that

2 would have been in Zenica. Am I correct?

3 A. No. I was in Zenica on a number of occasions, but every day

4 someone from the security service was in the centre for POWs. But I was

5 in Travnik only on one occasion.

6 Q. Thank you. I think I got it right now. Thanks.

7 You mentioned awhile ago of the IRC, International Red Cross, and

8 in your examination-in-chief, you indicated to my learned friend that

9 Mr. Grudic informed you that the Red Cross was indeed very happy with the

10 situation in the detention centre, or in the prison. Am I correct?

11 A. Yes. The person was Grudic, and if I'm not mistaken, I think

12 there's a written document in which the satisfaction of the International

13 Red Cross is expressed.

14 Q. But you yourself had not had this confirmation directly from the

15 Red Cross?

16 A. No. As I have said, Grudic told the two of us about this.

17 Q. With respect to the situation in Bugojno, prior to your going to

18 Bugojno, you indicated to the Trial Chamber that you had received reports

19 on what was happening in Bugojno and the atmosphere, the general

20 atmosphere in Bugojno. Am I correct?

21 A. Yes. On the basis of the chain of command, assistant commanders

22 for security had to provide information to their units about the situation

23 in the zone of responsibility and information on the security. They had

24 to provide such information to the 3rd Corps chief of security. This is

25 what took place within security service.

Page 14999

1 Q. Now, when you went to Bugojno yourself, could you give us an idea

2 of what the atmosphere was like when you went there yourself.

3 A. Well, first of all, we went to see the assistant commanders. I

4 have already mentioned this, but I can repeat it if necessary.

5 I have family members who left Donji Vakuf and went to Bugojno.

6 My uncle received a house from a Croat who remained in Bugojno, and they

7 would visit each other. He also received a plot of land that he could

8 till while he was a refugee. So if a man was a man, he remained a man,

9 and if anyone was afraid of being punished, he would leave. Everyone was

10 free to circulate. No one caused any trouble apart from those who had

11 been detained.

12 Q. You testified that, as far as you are aware, that there were no

13 reports of any mistreatment of POWs in Bugojno. Am I correct?

14 A. No. I said that we spoke to the assistant commander for security,

15 Mr. Handzic, and he informed us of an incident when two army members broke

16 into premises where HVO members were detained. On that occasion, they

17 beat up six individuals, one of whom died. The others were treated and

18 they were in hospital. He identified the perpetrators of this crime and

19 proceedings had been instituted against them and a criminal report was

20 going to be filed against them on the basis of the seriousness of the

21 crime.

22 Q. Yes. I think we misunderstood some question somewhere along the

23 line. My question is this: As far as you are aware, were there any

24 complaints by any of the POWs with respect to mistreatment in the Bugojno

25 centres?

Page 15000

1 A. We did not speak to the prisoners. We went there primarily to see

2 how the army members were conducting themselves. We also visited the

3 command, the command of the 307th Brigade and the command of the OG, where

4 we told assistant commanders for security to comply with what the general

5 had requested, namely that the Geneva Conventions should be respected and

6 that prisoners should be treated humanely.

7 When we spoke to them, Mr. Handzic informed us of the incident I

8 have mentioned, and we told him to continue working like that and said

9 that he had acted correctly when he arrested two army members. But we

10 didn't have enough time to see or visit the premises where HVO members

11 were being kept, because, as I have said, there were very few of us in the

12 security service and we had to return. Before that we had spent a long

13 period of time in Travnik. We only had limited time available, and we had

14 to return to the command.

15 Q. So would I be correct in saying, then, that you could not really

16 assist this Trial Chamber as to the conditions of the detention centres in

17 Bugojno nor as to the treatment meted out to the POWs in Bugojno?

18 A. It depends on how you look at these things. I believe that the

19 fact that we went there, the fact that the commander and the chief of the

20 security service insisted on us seeing how the measures were being

21 implemented, I think that this shows what the attitude of the superior

22 command was towards POWs. But you must understand that there were a lot

23 of duties that five men had to carry out in that zone of responsibility,

24 in the zone of responsibility of the 3rd Corps. So we couldn't do

25 everything.

Page 15001

1 And secondly, we knew that these facilities had been visited by

2 UNPROFOR members. If we had visited these buildings and if we had written

3 anything, well, people would have had more confidence in UNPROFOR than in

4 us. And we were more or less familiar with the situation in the

5 facilities, because army members were present when UNPROFOR visited.

6 Our main task was to point out to assistant commanders for

7 security once again that they should strictly adhere to the Geneva

8 Conventions.

9 And finally, as I went through this tortuous experience and I know

10 -- and I knew that the war would come to an end at some time, I knew that

11 everyone would be held to account for crimes committed. Since this was

12 the case, I tried to ensure that the assistant commanders for security

13 didn't allow our men to do the same things that HVO members and members of

14 the Republika Srpska army had done. I didn't want us to be identified

15 with them.

16 I'd been selected for execution. Fortunately, I remained alive.

17 And I personally would not want someone to say that I had been a member of

18 the army involved in genocide and crimes.

19 This is how I always acted, on the basis of these principles, and

20 I was assisted by my commander to a great extent since he insisted on

21 respect for the Geneva Conventions, and I'm grateful to him for that.

22 Q. Thank you. I appreciate that, but the question was very specific,

23 and I'm going to ask you again. It could be just a yes or no answer.

24 My question to you was you personally could not give an account as

25 to the conditions of the detention centres in Bugojno nor as to the

Page 15002

1 mistreatment of POWs in Bugojno having not been to the site yourself, as

2 you said.

3 A. Yes, I wasn't on the site itself, but as I have said, we said that

4 any irregularities should be punished, and the assistant commander had

5 informed us of the fact that two individuals who had committed this

6 unfortunate crime had been arrested. I didn't feel that it was necessary

7 to check the allegations of the assistant commander for security.

8 Q. Thank you. So the point I'm making now, I'm suggesting to you

9 that you couldn't see that people weren't maltreated. Neither can you say

10 that the detention centres weren't up to par or vice versa.

11 A. I wasn't there. I didn't see it, but I did talk to this Croat who

12 at no time said that he had been mistreated or that anybody else who was

13 in his immediate vicinity was abused either.

14 Q. Well, you spoke to somebody in Travnik. You visited Ivan or

15 Ivica. Am I correct?

16 A. Yes. I did see Ivan.

17 Q. Tell me, when you visited in Travnik, was Mr. Josipovic the only

18 person that you interviewed or you spoke to?

19 A. No. I've already said that there was this boy who was 17 or 18

20 years old, Bonic, on whom they found a human ear in his combat kit. There

21 was another person also from Vitez. And I've already said that neither of

22 them complained. Quite to the contrary; when we entered the detention

23 unit, he was lying down, reading a book or a magazine, I don't remember.

24 In detention.

25 Q. You see, I asked you the question because it wasn't clear to me

Page 15003

1 whether in fact you had just seen him there or you had spoken to him.

2 That's why I asked if Mr. Josipovic was the only person you had

3 interviewed. The impression I got at first is that you had just seen the

4 young lad lying there, and now I think for the record you've said that you

5 spoke to him.

6 So my question to you now that you were at that centre: Were

7 those three people the only people that you spoke to? And were these

8 three people the only three people in the detention centre that day?

9 A. I only spoke to those three on that day, and I didn't see anyone

10 else. I cannot state that they were the only three ones there, but I did

11 only see the three of them.

12 Q. Did you get an opportunity to see the conditions at the prison

13 that day?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you tell us, what was your opinion?

16 A. Since I said that I was in the prison, I will make a comparison.

17 In Zenica it was an A-category hotel, and in Travnik it was B-category

18 hotel. It was like that, compared to the conditions which were prevailing

19 when I was at Kaonik. If I can just be --

20 Q. Can I interrupt you for a second. It will be unfair for you to

21 say an A category and a B category because I think we don't know what

22 you're referring to when you say A category and B category. But certainly

23 in interests of time I don't want you to go into the comparison. I want

24 you to tell me what were the conditions at that prison that you had seen

25 on that day.

Page 15004

1 A. When I mentioned the A category and B category hotel, what I meant

2 was that 13 of us slept on a wooden platform which was two metres by three

3 metres. This was in Busovaca at Kaonik. Here, however, everybody had

4 their own bunk with a mattress and blankets. They had -- well, it was

5 summer, so I can't really talk about the temperature in the room, but they

6 had the full comfort that a person can enjoy in prison. They had three

7 meals [Realtime transcript read in error "means"] a day, they had their

8 own bunkbeds, they had an area to walk in. In Kaonik, we only had this

9 two-by-three space to walk around in in the cell. That's where we

10 allocated the space that we could walk around in. That was my comparison.

11 Q. You weren't happy about being arrested and detained by the HVO,

12 were you?

13 A. Well, I would like to see the person who would be happy when they

14 were abused and detained. I would really like to see a person who would

15 be happy to go through that and a person who wouldn't know if they would

16 be alive by morning.

17 Q. That is precisely my point and hence I do not want you to compare.

18 I want you to tell me, based on the Geneva Conventions, if you think that

19 the prison that you saw in Travnik, if it was -- if it stood up to the

20 requirements of the Geneva Conventions. I don't want you to compare,

21 because I know that you were unhappy in Kaonik.

22 A. They had the same conditions that any prisoner would have today in

23 any regular prison.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I would like a

25 correction in the transcript. Page 75 --

Page 15005












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 15006

1 THE INTERPRETER: We cannot hear the counsel very well.

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness said that they had

3 meals, and instead of "meals" in the transcript it says "means." So I

4 would like to have that corrected, please.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. We will take this

6 into account and the correction has now been corrected at line 2, page 72.

7 You may continue now.

8 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Thank you.

9 Q. I'm not sure -- I am not sure if we got the final answer. You

10 said that the conditions that any prisoner would have had today in any

11 regular prison. Now, what does that mean? Does it mean that the

12 conditions complied with the requirements under the Geneva Conventions?

13 What does that mean?

14 A. I said that the conditions, according to the Geneva Conventions,

15 were proper. They had as much freedom as civilian prisoners have today in

16 slightly better prisons.

17 Q. Now, you indicated awhile ago to the Trial Chamber that your role

18 was basically that of the military police-type of role, the task you

19 undertook. Am I correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could I ask you what of security? Were you involved in security

22 in any way?

23 A. When I spoke about the security sector's role, I said that the

24 security sector worked on counter-intelligence, staff, and military police

25 tasks. So all of that was part of our work. This is only one segment of

Page 15007

1 the security service.

2 Q. Okay. Now, do -- are you aware, then, during your tenure of any

3 problems with respect to foreigners?

4 A. No.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, this question

6 exceeds the framework of the examination-in-chief for this witness.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have the floor,

8 Ms. Benjamin.


10 Q. Sir, did there come a time during your tenure that your chief of

11 staff or the commander of the 3rd Corps indicated that he was having a

12 problem with foreigners? Did there come a time?

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Just one moment, Ms. Benjamin.

14 The Defence did not ask any questions about foreigners. Your

15 cross-examination, in accordance with the rules, must arise out of the

16 content of the examination-in-chief, and we know that the Defence did not

17 ask any questions about foreigners, Mujahedin. So why do you wish to

18 question this witness about that?

19 Of course the Chamber may permit you to put questions on that

20 topic if this is in the interest of justice, however, we will make a

21 decision on this. But before that, you need to explain to us why you are

22 putting these questions to the witness.

23 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, the witness, in

24 examination-in-chief and again in cross-examination, said that he was

25 involved in security matters. He was involved in it, and that, to me,

Page 15008

1 arises out of security and security matters, because in fact most -- most

2 of the documents that arise out of security, coming out of the -- of the

3 security department had to deal basically with that area. Hence the

4 reason why.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, in his testimony

6 the witness clearly stated that from mid-May until early November, he

7 worked in the security service and that he personally worked on those

8 tasks relating to military police tasks. Already the previous question to

9 which I reacted he replied to my learned friend that he did not have

10 anything to do with any matters relating to foreigners. So how can he

11 expect it -- how can he be expected to respond to questions like that if

12 he didn't deal with this matter in his work?

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Chamber has

15 consulted, and we believe that there is no point in putting these

16 questions. So the objection by the Defence is sustained.

17 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: As the Court pleases. Thank you,

18 Mr. President. Well, I think we would have covered all the areas by the

19 examination-in-chief and -- could you hold a second.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, my apologies, but I think

22 there might be one more question from the Prosecution.

23 Q. Sir, in your cross-examination and in your examination-in-chief,

24 you indicated to me that your tenure came to an end somewhere in November

25 when you were demobilised. Am I correct? And I think that's around the

Page 15009

1 same time that the commander of the 3rd Corps had ceased being a

2 commander. Are you aware of this?

3 A. Yes. I was demobilised, and Commander Alagic signed that document

4 when he assumed duty.

5 Q. And perhaps, sir, could you tell us if there was any connection

6 with your demobilisation and the fact that the commander had no longer

7 been corps commander? Is there any connection of any sort?

8 A. No. If you would like, I can explain to you why I asked to be

9 discharged.

10 Q. That won't be necessary.

11 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, that concludes the

12 cross-examination.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Re-examination.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, there are no

15 additional questions.

16 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have no

17 questions for this witness.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as I am concerned, I have

19 a few questions that I would like to put to you, a few brief questions,

20 but I would like to hear your answers to these questions.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In response to the precise

23 questions put to you by the Defence, you said that there was a sort of

24 dual chain of command as far as military security is concerned. You said

25 there was a chain of command including the 3rd Corps Commander, but there

Page 15010

1 was also a chain of command which passed through the Ministry of Defence

2 and the chief of the Main Staff. Could you explain to the Judges who was

3 in fact your superior? Although you said it was Ramiz Dugalic, we would

4 like to know who -- who was above him? Who was the real superior officer?

5 What would you say?

6 A. On the basis of the chain of command, it was the 3rd Corps

7 Commander, but in terms of the security service, it was the chief of the

8 security service in the Main Staff, and he was directly accountable to the

9 minister of defence and to the Supreme Commander, because the 3rd Corps

10 Commander could be involved in a security service. He could be the topic

11 of interest for the security service. So there was the chain of command,

12 and there was the chain of command in the security service.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you have clarified the

14 answers that you provided to the Defence.

15 Please have a look at the documents shown to you by the Defence,

16 the report of the 18th of August; 1392. Do you have the document before

17 you which is a typed three-page report, a three-page report.

18 I can see that it's addressed to the 3rd Corps Commander. My

19 questions have to do with this document alone.

20 In the B/C/S version, the document that you have before you, I can

21 see that on page 2 and 3, paragraphs were underlined, paragraphs that

22 concern the conditions of detention for prisoners in the military prison

23 in Travnik. That's on page 2. And on page 3, the fact that Mr. Handzic

24 mentioned a problem with two soldiers who maltreated six HVO soldiers is

25 also underlined.

Page 15011

1 As far as you know, in your opinion, who underlined these

2 sections? Was it Dugalic or was it someone at the level of the 3rd Corps

3 who wanted to draw attention to these two elements?

4 A. I don't know who underlined that, because I am seeing this report

5 of mine for the first time now. Well, I saw it when it was being

6 compiled.

7 Since Mr. Dugalic at the time when we were doing our task, he was

8 ill. He wasn't working. So we were heading it as attention of commander.

9 So I don't know whether it was signed by Hadzihasanovic or one of his

10 commanders. I really couldn't say. But we sent it, Mr. Muratovic and

11 myself, off without it being signed.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When we have a look at this

13 document, you've described -- you describe in detail your entire day, and

14 it says that you visited the 306th command, and then we can see that you

15 arrived in Travnik at 10.00 and you met Grudic, the assistant commander,

16 et cetera. But on page 1, you say that you explained to Grudic the

17 reasons for your visit. And in particular, as far as I can see in the

18 document, the investigation into Josipovic. And when we continue to read

19 further on, we can see that you interviewed him or interrogated him about

20 Ahmici.

21 Did you meet Mr. Josipovic to talk about the detention conditions

22 or to interrogate him about Ahmici?

23 A. We received the communication stating that Mr. Josipovic had been

24 arrested. Since I knew Josipovic very well because we worked together for

25 a while at the public security station in Vitez where he was the chief for

Page 15012

1 administrative and legal affairs and because of some criminal acts he left

2 the police force, basically he moved to the floor above us. He moved to

3 the military police of the Croatian Defence Council, and his immediate

4 superior was Pasko Ljubicic.

5 I, however, happen to know that the wife of his -- of her -- the

6 husband of his sister was commanding some of the units that participated

7 in the attack on the village of Ahmici.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But what I would like to know

9 is, when he was interviewed, did this have to do with the detention

10 conditions or was the purpose of the interview to obtain information on

11 what had happened in Vitez and in Ahmici? What was the main objective of

12 your interview with Josipovic? It's been written down, but I would like

13 to hear what you have to say.

14 A. I tried to explain that. The main task -- the main objective was

15 to find out as many particulars as possible about the crime in Ahmici.

16 And then when we arrived, then we --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. You said that, in

18 response to a question put to you by the Defence, you said that in the

19 military security service you had two functions; surveillance of the

20 military police, training the military police, and assessing their work.

21 These were the three main areas in which you worked.

22 Was interviewing part of your tasks? Perhaps that was the case,

23 perhaps not, but I would like to know.

24 A. It all depended on our assessment. If we felt that for the

25 purposes of acquiring precise and better information, then in each case we

Page 15013

1 were obliged to join and assist the military police or any other security

2 officers during the inquiry. We had assistance, that kind of monitoring,

3 but we were also there to supervise them in a way.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution asked you a

5 minute ago when you were in Bugojno you met other members of the military,

6 and you came to the conclusion that everything was proceeding very well.

7 Wouldn't it have been necessary -- and this is something that anyone might

8 wonder: Wouldn't it be -- wouldn't it have been necessary to see the

9 detainees to make sure that everything was fine?

10 In Travnik you saw these three detainees, but in Bugojno you

11 didn't see any. Why?

12 A. You can see from the report that on the 16th, we were in Travnik.

13 Then on the 17th, a dispatch arrived saying that the prisoners had not

14 been transferred to Zenica because the vehicles were faulty, and we went

15 up there to see what the true reason was, because these prisoners were not

16 transferred to the POW camp in Zenica, because we believed that the

17 conditions to hold them would be better there. They were closer to us for

18 the monitoring -- for purposes of monitoring and for their security.

19 We left Travnik quite late --

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] [Previous translation

21 continues]... you didn't have the time. But when Mr. Handzic told you

22 that there was a problem, two soldiers were beaten, one of them died as a

23 result, didn't you then feel it necessary to examine this incident more

24 closely by going to see the detainees? You knew that your report would be

25 forwarded to the 3rd Corps Commander, and he perhaps might have wanted to

Page 15014

1 know more about the incident, but your men -- your reference is very

2 brief. You mentioned a problem, but in fact one doesn't know anything

3 about what happened. Why didn't you try to deal with this matter more

4 extensively?

5 A. Because we would have acquired the same information and then we

6 would again instruct Mr. Handzic to issue charges, which then he would

7 pass on to the military prosecutor's office. And I believe that we would

8 have just doubled the whole work. He told me that he had already spoken

9 to one of Croats who had remained there who was in excellent -- on

10 excellent terms with his neighbours, Bosniaks, and who moved freely around

11 Bugojno. And he never at any point said that -- well --

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And my last

13 question: As far as the Iskra stadium is concerned, did you ever visit

14 the stadium to see what the detention conditions were like for the people

15 who were held there? Did you go into the stadium or not?

16 A. No, because they were just considering that possibility at that

17 time. And according to the order, you could see that the stadium was

18 actually set up on the 28th. I don't remember exactly, but it was after

19 we left Bugojno. On the 24th of August.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On page 57, line 4, you said

21 that, "We knew what was happening thanks to the communications that had

22 been established." As far as the system of communication is concerned

23 between the place where you were when you were in Zenica and the 3rd Corps

24 and the units in the field, how did you see the problem of communications

25 by radio, in writing, over the phone? Did you feel that there were any

Page 15015

1 communication problems at that level? Were things running smoothly?

2 Could you provide us with some clarification? Because awhile ago you said

3 that, "We knew what was happening." So I would like to know whether the

4 communications functioned properly. Did everything go smoothly? What can

5 you say about this?

6 A. I said that we knew as much as we had access to based on the

7 system of dispatches which were arriving at the command. I didn't work in

8 the communications centre, so I cannot talk to you about all the

9 difficulties and how that proceeded because I don't know anything about

10 that.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But the dispatches, did you

12 yourself read them? Were you familiar with these dispatches?

13 A. Each dispatch that arrived at the security centre was accessible

14 to all the employees at the security centre to read. So whoever wanted to

15 read it could read it.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17 JUDGE SWART: Good afternoon, Witness. A few questions I would

18 like to put to you. The first is the -- on the two soldiers who beat up

19 six HVO prisoners. It has never been said explicitly by you or by your

20 report, but I assume that these were soldiers of the 307th Brigade. Is

21 that correct or were they from another unit?

22 A. I think that it does state in the report that the assistant

23 security commander said that it -- that these were his soldiers. So these

24 were members of the 307th Brigade and that he took measures and that he

25 went and had them set free.

Page 15016

1 JUDGE SWART: Well, your report says in the English translation,

2 "Handzic said he had a problem with two soldiers," but if I may read that

3 as meaning two soldiers of his brigade, then it answers my question.

4 When you told us about your trip to the local security --

5 assistant security commander's in August, I remember you saying that this

6 was the first time you had the opportunity to do so. Is that -- do I

7 remember that correctly? I'm not sure whether I do.

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE SWART: Have there been other trips later on to the same

10 local assistant commanders for security having the same purpose or is it

11 also the last trip you made to them?

12 A. That was the first and last time.

13 JUDGE SWART: Thank you very much.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll now give the floor to the

15 Prosecution if they have any questions to put to the witness that arise

16 from the Judges' questions.

17 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: Mr. President, the Prosecution has no

18 questions of this witness.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As Defence counsel is always the

20 last to take the floor, and they may ask questions that arise out of the

21 answers the witness provided to the Chamber and I'll give the floor to the

22 Defence.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions for this

24 witness, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. And the other

Page 15017

1 Defence team, Defence counsel.

2 Further examined by Ms. Residovic:

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, you said that this was your first and last time that

5 you went to Bugojno. Before you, who used to go to Bugojno after the

6 events that occurred between the army and the HVO?

7 A. I said that it was the chief, Mr. Dugalic.

8 Q. Who determined who would go and when out in the field to carry out

9 a part of the military security tasks?

10 A. Mr. Dugalic.

11 Q. Do you know if, except for you, other members of the military

12 security sector could go out into the field and to other units?

13 A. Yes.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, this concludes your

15 re-examination. Thank you for your contribution to establishing the

16 truth. You have answered the questions put to you by the Defence counsel,

17 by the Prosecution, with the exception of one question that we did not

18 authorise. You have also answered the questions put to you by the

19 Judges.

20 On behalf of the Chamber I would like to thank you and I wish you

21 a good trip home and all the best in your career as a forensics expert.

22 And I will now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24 [The witness withdrew]

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll now give the floor to the

Page 15018

1 Defence so that we can deal with the documents. There are seven

2 documents. You may proceed.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we propose that the

4 following documents be admitted as Defence exhibits: 1320, 1391, 1392,

5 and that the documents which were marked previously as ID documents, DH63

6 ID, DH176 ID, and DH62 ID be given exhibit numbers.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And DH1319, 1319?

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is already admitted.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it's been admitted. You

10 are quite right.

11 Are there any objections from the Prosecution? Any objections to

12 admitting these documents into evidence, documents which have been

13 recognised and commented on?

14 MS. HENRY-BENJAMIN: The Prosecution has no objections,

15 Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, you may take the

17 floor to provide us with exhibit numbers.

18 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. These

19 documents will be exhibited -- admitted into evidence. 1320 will be

20 admitted. Its English version will be DH1320/E. DH1391. Its English

21 version DH1391/E. DH1392. The English version of this document will be

22 DH1392/E.

23 The following documents were previously marked for identification

24 and will now be given final exhibit numbers: DH63. The English version

25 of the document will be DH63/E. DH176; the English version will be

Page 15019

1 DH176/E. And finally DH62; the English version will be DH62/E.

2 That concludes the list, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Chamber takes

4 note of these exhibit numbers.

5 As far as the hearing that will be held tomorrow at 9.00 is

6 concerned, we will call the witness who first appeared to appear tomorrow

7 at 9.00. Then the Prosecution will commence with its cross-examination.

8 After that stage, we will have the re-examination, Judges' questions and

9 additional question if necessary. If we finish with this witness in the

10 course of the morning, we will start with the following witness. I'll

11 turn to the Defence now.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that is exactly how

13 the Defence thought we would work tomorrow. We will also call Witness

14 Ragib Hodzic. We have already, as I said earlier, informed the Victims

15 and Witnesses Unit that Witness HD will be left for the following

16 week. At the end of the day tomorrow, we will supply the Chamber and the

17 Prosecution with a definite list of witnesses for next week.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, but it is quite

19 probable that Mr. Hodzic will have to stay until Monday if we don't manage

20 to finish with his examination tomorrow.

21 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I requested one

22 hour, and if my learned friends and the Court also had approximately the

23 same number of questions, I believe that we could complete the testimony

24 of Mr. Hodzic tomorrow, because I do not need more than 30 minutes for my

25 examination-in-chief of that witness.

Page 15020

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence will

2 need 30 minutes for their examination-in-chief of Mr. Hodzic. So you

3 should make your calculations and we will see things more clearly in that

4 case.

5 It is almost 7.00. I will see everyone tomorrow morning at the

6 hearing at 9.00.

7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.57 p.m.,

8 to be reconvened on Friday, the 28th day of

9 January, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.