1 Monday, 14 March 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, will you please
6 call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Case
8 number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we have the appearances for
11 the Prosecution, please.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon,
13 Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the
14 Prosecution, Matthias Neuner and Daryl Mundis, assisted by our case
15 manager, Andres Vatter.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the appearances for the
17 Defence, please.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President.
19 Good afternoon, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic,
20 Edina Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Alexis
21 Demirdjian, legal assistant.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence team.
23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
24 On behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin
25 Mulalic, legal assistant.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On today, the 14th of March, I
2 wish to bid good afternoon to all those present: The representatives of
3 the Prosecution, the counsel for the Defence, some of whom have been here
4 since 8.00 this morning, the two accused, as well as all the staff of this
5 courtroom within or outside it.
6 We need to continue our work today by the testimony of a witness,
7 but before that we need to deal with a question of the admission into
8 evidence of certain documents.
9 So I give the floor to the Defence, who is going to submit their
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
12 The Defence would like to tender the documents shown to the
13 witness according to the list which we produced earlier on be admitted
14 into evidence: Documents under number -- in Chapter 1, "Events"; under
15 number 3, 3rd Corps military police, number 690-2, dated the 24th of
16 January, 1993. There is an English translation for this document, and we
17 should like to tender it into evidence as a Defence exhibit.
18 Also in the same chapter, document under tab 9, 3rd Corps
19 military police, confidential number 09-16, dated the 14th of February,
20 1993, official record which also has been provided with an English
21 translation, be admitted as a Defence exhibit.
22 Also, the document at tab 11 and the number is 0925, that it be
23 admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit.
24 Document number 17, DH1351 ID, for which there is an English
25 translation we should like to tender into evidence.
1 Document at tab 19 that bore the number DH176 ID, should be
2 admitted as an exhibit.
3 From the second chapter of documents, headed "Mujahedin," we
4 would like to tender into evidence document number 1, DH778 ID, in view of
5 the fact that an English translation has been provided.
6 Also, a new document at tab 7, 3rd Corps command security sector,
7 number 03/100-112-4 dated the 10th of May, 1993, ERN number 04032452, and
8 it is a daily report for which an English translation has been provided,
9 is being tendered as an exhibit.
10 We should like to tender as an exhibit tab at number 24, also a
11 new document, command of the 3rd Corps, security sector, number
12 03/100-424-1 dated the 19th of November, 1993, "Information," in view of
13 the fact that there is an English translation.
14 Mr. President, I haven't checked whether some of the documents
15 were signed by the witness. If so, could they be treated as confidential
16 and admitted under seal. But I will check that out. As there aren't so
17 many documents, I'll be able to do that quickly.
18 Thank you very much.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a document at tab
21 24, in the second chapter, is the only one signed by the witness.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have checked that that
23 document was indeed signed by the witness or not?
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, that's right.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you've completed
1 all of your requests.
2 The Prosecution.
3 MR. MUNDIS: No objection, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Mr. Registrar, please do your duty.
6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The
7 documents will be admitted as Defence exhibits under the following exhibit
8 numbers, and I'll switch to English.
9 [Previous translation continues] ... [In English] police,
10 internal number 690-2, dated 24th of January, 1993, is admitted into
11 evidence under the reference DH2076, with an English translation DH2076/E.
12 The document entitled "3rd Corps military police," confidential
13 number 09-16, dated 14th of February, 1993, is admitted into evidence
14 under the reference DH2077, with an English translation DH2077/E.
15 The document previously marked for identification 925 is now
16 admitted into evidence under the reference DH925, with an English
17 translation, DH925/E.
18 The document previously marked for identification 1351 is now
19 admitted into evidence under the reference DH1351, with an English
20 translation, DH1351/E.
21 The document previously marked for identification 176 is now
22 admitted into evidence under the reference DH176, with an English
23 translation, DH176/E.
24 The document previously marked for identification under the
25 reference 778 is now admitted into evidence under the reference DH778,
1 with an English translation, DH778/E.
2 The document entitled "3rd Corps command security sector,"
3 internal reference number 03/100-112-4, dated 10th of May, 1993, with an
4 ERN number 04032452, daily report, is admitted into evidence under the
5 reference DH2078, with an English translation, DH2078/E.
6 The document entitled "3rd Corps command security sector,"
7 internal reference number 03/100-424-1, dated the 19th of November, 1993
8 is now admitted into evidence under seal and confidential, under the
9 reference DH2079, with an English translation, DH2079/E.
10 [Interpretation] This finishes the list, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has the floor.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, by checking the
13 documents as the registrar was reading the numbers, I have established
14 that the witness also signed document DH2078, so could it be given
15 confidential treatment as well, please.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, 2078.
17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Document DH2078, dated the 10th
18 of May, 1993, has been admitted confidentially and under seal.
19 Thank you, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are there any questions to
21 address, or problems? No problems?
22 Yes, I see someone on his feet.
23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
24 had a document dated the 22nd of April, 1993, a public announcement by the
25 command of the 7th Muslim Brigade, and we should like to tender it.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution.
2 MR. MUNDIS: No objection, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, a
4 number, please.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This
6 document is admitted as a Defence exhibit, DK27, with an English version,
8 Thank you, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can bring in the new
11 How much time does the Defence plan to take with this witness?
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I assume an hour and 15 minutes,
13 Mr. President.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Let me check
17 that you are hearing the interpretation of my words in your own language.
18 If that is the case, please tell me so.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear and understand you.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you have been called as a
21 Defence witness by General Hadzihasanovic. Before asking you to read the
22 solemn declaration, will you please tell me your name, date, and place of
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Semir Saric. I was born
25 on the 6th of December, 1996 [as interpreted] in Zenica.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please tell us what
2 your current occupation is.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a professional soldier
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what rank do you have and
6 your assignment?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My rank is that of captain, and I
8 am a staff officer near Sarajevo, in Butile [phoen] near Sarajevo.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993, what was your
10 position then? And if you were a soldier, what was your rank?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 20th of April, 1992 I joined
12 the TO Staff of Zenica, and until the 2nd of May I was a member of that
13 staff, and then I was mobilised to a military police company of the
14 District Defence Staff of Zenica.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Captain, have you testified
16 before in an international or national court about the events that took
17 place in your country in 1992 and 1993, or is this the first time for you
18 to testify?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time for me to
20 testify about the events of 1992 and 1993.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Will you please, captain, read
22 the solemn declaration.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 WITNESS: SEMIR SARIC
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Captain, before giving the
5 floor to the lawyers, who will start with your examination, I shall give
6 you some information as to the way in which we will proceed.
7 As you know, you're a Defence witness, and for about an hour and
8 a quarter you will be expected to answer questions put to you by the
9 attorneys of General Hadzihasanovic, attorneys that you certainly met
10 before this hearing.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Upon the completion of that
12 stage, the Prosecution, seated to your right, will also be asking you
13 questions over a similar period of time, and this is known as the
15 Upon the completion of that stage, the lawyers who questioned you
16 first may have some additional questions for you, which will be linked to
17 the questions put by the Prosecution.
18 The three Judges sitting in front of you may also ask you
19 something at any time; however, the Judges prefer to wait until all the
20 questions have been put to you by the two parties before intervening,
21 because often the questions that they may wish to ask may be put by either
22 party, in which case the Judges will not have any questions for you. But
23 sometimes the Judges need some additional clarification of your answers or
24 they may find that there is a vacuum in something that you have said and
25 then in the interest of justice the Judges may be prompted to ask you to
1 fill in those gaps.
2 You will see that the questions coming from each party may
3 differ. The questions that will be put to you by the Defence need to be
4 neutral, which will require from you quite extensive answers. On the
5 other hand, the questions put to you by the Prosecution may be leading and
6 can be answered with a yes or no.
7 During the period of your testimony, the parties may produce
8 documents and show them to you, and it's quite possible that documents of
9 a military nature, as you were a military man, may be shown to you. The
10 witness will then identify them and comment on those documents.
11 I need also to draw your attention to two important points, the
12 first being common knowledge: Since you have pledged to tell the whole
13 truth, all false testimony is excluded, because, as you know, false
14 testimony is an offence; a second point, which is more technical and
15 rather complicated, is that a witness may refuse to answer the question if
16 he believes that that answer may one day be used against him and
17 incriminate him. In such a very exceptional case, which we have so far
18 never come across, the Chamber may compel the witness to answer. But when
19 he does so, upon the invitation of the Chamber, the Chamber guarantees him
20 immunity from prosecution.
21 As this is a basically oral procedure, as we have absolutely no
22 information about you except a few brief lines of a summary, hence the
23 importance of what you are going to say. As you see a screen in front of
24 you, the words appearing in English will be translations of what is being
25 said in the courtroom, and that will be the record of your testimony.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Should you fail to answer a question -- to understand a question, please
2 ask the person putting it to you to rephrase it. Sometimes the questions
3 may be very complex and the witness may have difficulty in answering, and
4 the answers are principally intended for the Judges, who have to grasp why
5 it is you have been called and what exactly you have said in answering
6 questions; hence the importance of those answers.
7 Try to be as clear as possible in your answers because, as you
8 know and as I have just said, answers have to be clear to equally clear
10 Should you have any kind of difficulty, please let us know
11 because we are here to assist.
12 I wish to inform you also that every one and a half hours we have
13 technical breaks, which will give you an opportunity to take a rest,
14 because it can be quite tiring to answer questions continuously, but also
15 it will help the technicians to change the tapes, as everything is being
17 So we will have two breaks in all, of 20 to 25 minutes each,
18 until the end of the day. But according to the schedule, by this evening
19 you should be able to return home.
20 That is all the information that I wish to give you.
21 Without wasting any more time, I shall give the floor to the
22 Defence, who will give you some additional advice and who will begin their
24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Examined by Ms. Residovic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Saric.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. In addition to the information provided to you by the President
4 of the Chamber, I would like to give you one more piece of information:
5 The two of us speak the same language, and as soon as you hear my
6 question, you will be in a position to answer immediately; however, both
7 my question and yours also have to be translated so as to enable the
8 Judges and our colleagues in the courtroom to follow what you are saying.
9 That's why I should like to ask you to make a short pause before you start
10 answering my question. Did you ever that?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Did you understand that?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Mr. Saric, what did you do before the war, before the 6th of
15 April, 1992, and where were you employed?
16 A. Before the war, I was an officer. I worked in Zadar at the
17 Zemunik airport near Zadar, in the former JNA.
18 Q. Did there come a time when you abandoned the JNA?
19 A. Yes, I abandoned the JNA on the 14th of July, 1991.
20 Q. You have told us that in 1993 you were a member of the Military
21 Police Company in the District Defence Staff of Zenica. Up to what time
22 did you remain a member of that company and after that did you assume some
23 other duty or did you take a position?
24 A. I was a member of the Military Police Company from the 2nd of
25 May, 1992 throughout the existence of that company, which was the 1st
1 December 1992, when the police battalion -- the Military Police Battalion
2 was established, and then I became an inspector in the service of that
3 Military Police Battalion.
4 Q. How long did you remain in that position, in the Military Police
6 A. I remained in that position until March or April, 1994.
7 Q. When you said "the Military Police Battalion," did you imply the
8 Military Police Battalion of the 3rd Corps?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Who was your immediate superior officer in the battalion?
11 A. In the Military Police Battalion, my immediate superior officer
12 at first was Mr. Bakir Alispahic and then Mr. Ismet Skopljak and the
13 commander of the Military Police Battalion was Mujezinovic.
14 Q. Mr. Saric, what served to regulate the work of the military
15 police in the year 1993, when you were a member of the Military Police
17 A. The scope of the work of the military police, including the
18 battalion of the military police, were regulated by the -- by the orders
19 for the work of the armed forces, of the work of the security services,
20 the Criminal Code, and the instructions of the superior command.
21 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber some of the tasks
22 that the military police performed during that period of time.
23 A. The military police had to secure most important facilities
24 within the system of command and control. They had to provide security
25 for military personnel, military documents. They had to regulate traffic.
1 They had to escort convoys of military vehicles. They also had tasks
2 within the crime prevention, such as prevention of different types of
3 crime among the members of military, scouring the ground, protection of
4 communications centres and so on and so forth.
5 Q. You've told us that your task was to intercept and prevent
6 certain criminal activities among the members of the BiH army. Tell me,
7 please, whether the military police was also in charge of some other
8 people who were not members of the army, and if that was the case, when
9 was that the case?
10 A. Are you implying civilians?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Yes, the military police did have certain authorities over the
13 civilian personnel but only in case such civilians would perform crimes
14 that fell under the authority of the military courts or when the -- the
15 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina appeared as the aggrieved party of a
16 certain crime committed by civilians.
17 Q. Mr. Saric, could you give us an example of such crimes for which
18 you had certain authority because they fell under the scope of the
19 military district court.
20 A. Yes. Those crimes are regulated by the criminal procedure code
21 that was adopted as the law of Bosnia and Herzegovina and those crimes
22 were crimes against the social order and against armed forces. So when we
23 are talking about the first type of crimes, we are talking about
24 sabotages, serving in the enemy army, and armed rebellion; and the latter
25 crimes, that fall under the category of crimes against the armed forces.
1 They were regulated by the law of the former Yugoslavia, which was adopted
2 as a law of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and among them are
3 attack against officers and soldiers of the army. There were some 20 of
4 such crimes which fell under that category of crimes.
5 Q. Mr. Saric, when, during what stage of having received information
6 that there might be suspicion of such a crime, at what stage would the
7 military police take charge?
8 A. If we learned that a crime was committed that fell under the
9 authority of the military court, the military police acted immediately,
10 urgently, in keeping with the procedure. However, every such crime of
11 which we learnt and of which we had information, we had to inform the
12 investigative judge of the military court, who would then estimate whether
13 there was any need for him to go to the spot and investigate. If there
14 was no such need, then he would inform the military police. If the judge
15 estimated that the crime was of such nature that it required his presence,
16 in that case the judge would be in charge of the investigation and
17 everything would be done as per his orders, on the spot of the crime, at
18 the scene.
19 Q. When you learnt that a crime had been committed, did the military
20 police act independently or did they act in cooperation with other organs?
21 A. If a crime was committed by a member of the army which was
22 prosecuted ex officio, then the military police could act independently,
23 providing they had informed the investigative judge. However, if the
24 civilians were also involved together with the members of the military or
25 if it was only the civilians that committed a crime, then we had to
1 cooperate with members of the Ministry of the Interior.
2 Q. In answering my previous question, you said that when the
3 investigative judge or the judge on duty went to the scene, then he was in
4 charge in -- of the investigation and he would issue orders as to what the
5 other participants in the investigations were -- investigation were to do.
6 What would happen if the prosecutor received a report on a crime that was
7 committed? Who was in charge of the pre-criminal procedure?
8 A. According to the law that I've already mentioned, the prosecutor
9 was the one in charge of the pre-criminal procedure, and he could request
10 from the members of the military police to collect the necessary
11 information in keeping with the law so as to enable him to prosecute the
12 perpetrator of such crimes.
13 Q. You've told us that you worked in one part of the Military Police
14 Battalion. Tell me, what did that part of the battalion specially engage
15 in? That was the service of the military police, as you called it. What
16 did this segment of the battalion do?
17 A. Yes, that was the part called the Department for the Services of
18 the Military Police. The military police performs their duties by
19 applying their rules. There are seven parts of the military police, and
20 in this particular part we collected information, we analysed information,
21 and we forwarded that information towards the battalion command and the
22 corps command.
23 Q. In addition to you working in that part of the battalion, could
24 you just briefly tell us how the battalion of the military police was
25 organised in the 3rd Corps.
1 A. As far as I can comment upon that, the Military Police Battalion
2 had four companies. It had the Department for Services that we have
3 mentioned; and it had the anti-terrorist unit.
4 Q. Can you please briefly tell us: What was the scope of the work
5 of the companies of the battalion?
6 A. The 1st Company was tasked with performing classical police
7 duties, such as patrols, escorting, the search. The 2nd Company was
8 tasked with providing security. They provided security for command, for
9 institutions, for military documents. And the 3rd Company was to take
10 part in combat activities. And when it didn't participate in combat, it
11 was used for military police work. And then there was the traffic-control
12 company, which was used in traffic, to control traffic, to escort convoys.
13 So its specialty was linked with traffic. The anti-terrorist unit was
14 engaged in controlling military discipline, in scouring the ground, in
15 protecting high military officers who arrived in Zenica. They also
16 provided anti-terrorist protection for various facilities. And there was
17 also the Department for Services. We had the Service for Crime
18 Prevention, where we had inspectors who worked in that service. We also
19 had the escort service, and so on and so forth. We had seven services,
20 and these seven services are how we were organised.
21 Q. Since you were a member of the service that was in charge of
22 investigation, tell me, please how your service was organised and how many
23 members of staff it had.
24 A. I've already said that we had a duty service which consisted of
25 six people and it worked around the clock. We received reports, and we
1 controlled all the other activities. There were between eight and ten
2 crime-prevention inspectors. There were four lawyers, who were in charge
3 of the professional side of the work. They were in charge of filing
4 criminal reports. There were two crime technicians. And I believe that
5 there were six to eight policemen. So all together there were 22 or 23
6 members of this service. Their numbers varied.
7 Q. Mr. Saric, can you briefly tell us about the chain of command and
8 how it was organised in the military police company of the 3rd Corps. Who
9 were your immediate superiors and who was in charge of the battalion?
10 Who was its commander?
11 A. My immediate superior was Ismet Skopljak; the battalion commander
12 was Mujezinovic, and the unit was linked to the corps command through the
13 sector of the security services of the corps command.
14 Q. Since you worked in crime prevention involving members of the
15 army, tell me, please: What authorities did the military police have when
16 it came to the prevention of crime among members of the BiH army?
17 A. The authorities of the military police were regulated by the
18 rules of work. There were 14 of them. The first one is identification,
19 bringing in, the use of various means, such as means of restriction. And
20 on top of all that is filing criminal reports. Criminal reports were
21 filed to the prosecutor against perpetrators of crime.
22 Q. Did you have any authority to file criminal reports for other
23 acts committed by members of the army and not only for crimes?
24 A. Yes. If we did not have any other suspicions, you could also
25 file a disciplinary report against an army member who committed a breach
1 of discipline in his place of work.
2 Q. Mr. Saric, did the Military Police Battalion of the 3rd Corps
3 exist as the only unit of the military police in the entire corps, or were
4 military police units organised elsewhere, in other areas?
5 A. The Military Police Battalion was not the only military police
6 unit in the corps. The brigades also had military police units at their
7 respective levels.
8 Q. Can you please tell me what was the size of the military police
9 units in the brigades.
10 A. I believe that in the brigades that existed in the town of Zenica
11 there were military police units. I know that there were. The mountain
12 brigades had platoons and motorised brigades had military police
14 Q. Mr. Saric, in the Military Police Battalion of the 3rd Corps,
15 were you superior to the companies and platoons of the military police in
16 the brigades or OGs?
17 A. No. It was the officer of that unit who was in command of the
18 military police unit. For example, in the brigades that had their
19 military police units, the commander was the commander of that brigade who
20 was in charge of that unit through his security organ.
21 Q. Did you have any authorities whatsoever over those military
22 police units which did not necessarily have to be the authority of
23 command, of being superior to them?
24 A. We couldn't issue them orders; however, based on our plans and
25 problems of training and education that was drafted by security service
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 sector of the 3rd Corps, we participated in the education of the military
2 police units at lower levels and to a certain extent we provided them with
3 the equipment as much as we could, as much as we could spare.
4 Q. Mr. Saric, if you learnt that a crime was committed in a certain
5 area, which unit of the military police would be responsible and which one
6 would react and perform their duties in respect of such a crime?
7 A. Usually a report about a crime would be received in the duty
8 service of the military police of the 3rd Corps and the Military Police
9 Battalion would inform the investigating judge about this, who would then
10 form a team, as I have already mentioned. So the military police of the
11 3rd Corps had to carry out on-site investigation, collect traces, secure
12 the site, et cetera.
13 Q. Should an event take place in the territory of an operations
14 group or a brigade, who would be responsible for undertaking the steps you
15 have just mentioned?
16 A. As far as I can recollect, sometime in June the Bosanska Krajina
17 Operations Group formed its own military police company that was active in
18 the area in order to prevent crime in accordance with the authority of the
19 military police.
20 Q. Was there ever an instance that a military police battalion
21 extended aid, direct aid, to platoons or companies in their area if they
22 themselves were unable to carry out their assignment?
23 A. Yes. This was regulated by resubordination of a part of the
24 Military Police Battalion to the military police units of those brigades.
25 I can -- know that I was in the area of responsibility of the 325th
1 Brigade and I was resubordinated to the command of that brigade and asked
2 to assist the military police unit in that area. I was also in the
3 village of Donji Merdani in the area of responsibility of the 333rd
4 Brigade and for a brief period also in Zepce municipality, and I know that
5 my colleagues were also part of military police forces and took part in
6 the protection of certain facilities together with the military police
7 units on whose territories those objects were. Specifically I have in
8 mind the Kraljeva Sutjeska monastery in Kakanj and Guca Gora monastery in
9 Guca Gora.
10 Q. How would you go there? Was this on the basis of a decision
11 within your own competencies, or did you have to receive an order of a
12 superior command?
13 A. I think I already said that it was by order that we would be
14 resubordinated to another unit.
15 Q. Tell me, Mr. Saric: In view of the fact that quite a lot of
16 evidence has been produced in this courtroom about, among other things,
17 the existence of the civilian police, tell us what was your relationship
18 with the civilian police. Were you superior to them or subordinated to
19 them? What was the relationship between you?
20 A. The Military Police Battalion was not superior to the civilian
21 police but there was a relationship between us and on two grounds: First,
22 if a civilian commits a crime which is within the terms of a reference of
23 the military court or is a co-perpetrator with a soldier, it was our duty
24 to cooperate directly with members of the Ministry of the Interior; and
25 the second grounds was that members of the MUP, or the Security Services
1 Centre, and the Public Security Station in Zenica, were technically better
2 equipped and better staffed than the Military Police Battalion, so we
3 cooperated on those grounds as well. In carrying out certain activities,
4 we provided technical and professional assistance.
5 Q. Tell me now, Mr. Saric: What was the status and resources
6 available to your battalion, in terms of personnel and the ethnic
7 composition of the members of your battalion?
8 A. As far as the personnel is concerned, I can say that there were
9 few among us who had the specialty of military policing, but in addition
10 to our regular assignments, we devoted a lot of attention to training as
11 well. As for equipment, particularly equipment for crime investigation,
12 sometime in June 1993 -- until that period, we only had a single camera.
13 I think it was a Praktika model. And when you asked me about the ethnic
14 composition, I can say that members from the Military Police Battalion
15 came from all three nations living in the area of Zenica, of course in
16 proportion to the population numbers. The largest numbers were Muslims,
17 and Serbs and Croats had equal numbers approximately.
18 Q. Mr. Saric, when carrying out your duties, did you encounter any
19 difficulties? And if so, could you tell us briefly which those
20 difficulties were that you had to deal with, in addition to the fact that
21 you had personnel with insufficient training and lacked the equipment that
22 you needed for your work.
23 A. Yes. We did encounter many problems. First of all, there was a
24 shortage of resources. We also lacked fuel, which we needed to carry out
25 on-site investigations. Another problem was the influx of large numbers
1 of people coming from various parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina. By way of
2 example, Zenica, which had about 100.000 inhabitants, I think that there
3 were about 50.000 refugees in addition to the population. Among these
4 refugees were men in uniform without insignia and bearing long barrels,
5 and it was very difficult to keep all this under control.
6 Also, members frequently switched from one unit to another, so
7 that in spite of all our efforts, it was difficult to carry out military
8 policing in territory under the control of the HVO.
9 These were just some of the problems that we encountered in
10 carrying out our regular duties.
11 Q. In view of the fact that you engaged in the detection of crimes
12 and their perpetrators, tell me, what was the 3rd Corps policies and the
13 policies of its commander with respect to the way in which perpetrators
14 should be prosecuted and law and order respected within the Army of Bosnia
15 and Herzegovina?
16 A. As far as I know, on the basis of orders that we received from
17 the battalion command and which came from the corps command, there were
18 strict orders that all perpetrators of criminal offences, regardless of
19 religion or ethnicity or political views, should be treated in an equal
20 manner, and that means lawfully.
21 Q. Could you tell me how members of the army were sanctioned, for
22 what kind of acts and what kind of punishment.
23 A. Members of the army could be held criminally responsible before
24 the district military court. Disciplinary measures could be taken by the
25 superior command or by the military disciplinary court that was formed at
1 the level of the corps command and in certain specific cases, they could
2 also be held responsible by the misdemeanour courts.
3 Q. In view of all these possibilities for the liability of members
4 of the army and also the problems you encountered in your work, tell me,
5 could you describe this process from the moment you learnt that a crime
6 had been committed to the time when you file a criminal report. Was the
7 procedure identical in all cases, or were situations different?
8 A. Of course the situations differed from one case to another. The
9 duty service may receive a report, and the situation is quite clear on the
10 spot. When the perpetrator is caught on site and when the evidence has
11 been preserved, then we can undertake all the other measures, taking the
12 perpetrator into custody, and reporting to the district military
13 prosecutor in this case. However, certain criminal offences were
14 committed by unknown perpetrators. In that case, when the perpetrator was
15 unknown or his identity was unknown, we would secure the traces that we
16 would find on site, collect other information, analyse that information,
17 and then on the basis of analytical assessments regarding the time, the
18 place, the method used, we would make assessments and plans and a certain
19 number of members on the basis of those plans were found, taken into
20 custody, and prosecuted.
21 Q. Mr. Saric, in 1993 did you take part in one such instance of
22 monitoring a certain criminal tendency and finally discovering the
23 perpetrators of those crimes?
24 A. Yes. During 1993, there was -- there were frequent instances of
25 crimes being committed by various members. And I will focus on a case
1 that I was directly involved in, and that is the case of the 3rd Battalion
2 of the 314th Brigade, the so-called Green League. The military security
3 sector of the corps command collected data on the ground and also data we
4 had and those provided by other security organs, especially of the 314th
5 Brigade, and when sufficient information had been collected, sufficient
6 evidence, members of the battalion of the 314th Brigade on the basis of a
7 plan drafted by the corps command, these members were taken into custody,
8 interrogated, handed over to the court with a criminal report and
9 attachments, so all that we had collected over a period of six months.
10 Q. In addition to the cases when you were able to immediately find
11 the perpetrator and these other cases, when it took you a lot of time to
12 discover the perpetrator, tell me, were you able to discover all the
13 crimes and their perpetrators over that period of time?
14 A. I think - and this may be my own subjective opinion - that in
15 view of the conditions under which we were working, we had a relatively
16 high percentage of success in detecting perpetrators. But in answer to
17 your question, we did not manage to discover all the perpetrators of
18 criminal offences. And I think that that was not possible anyway.
19 Q. Mr. Saric, I would now like to ask you: In view of the military
20 police work that you described a moment ago and the tasks you had, were
21 you personally ever engaged in certain policework in an area which had
22 previously been the scene of combat activity?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Could you please tell us when this was and could you describe it.
25 A. This was at the end of January 1993 when, with a military police
1 patrol, I was sent to the Lasva village area to take over prisoners of war
2 and to escort them to the KP Dom in Zenica, the prison in Zenica.
3 Q. Did you do that? Or, rather, could you describe what exactly you
4 did that evening.
5 A. Yes, it was evening. It was dark. It was wintertime. And when
6 we reached the village of Lasva, in front of the school in Lasva we found
7 a large number of civilians and members of the army. And the situation,
8 to say the least, was unpleasant.
9 From the people who were on the spot, we learnt that in combat
10 there had been dead and injured on both sides.
11 Q. With what force did you come to take over those prisoners? And
12 did you transport them from Lasva to the reception centre in Zenica?
13 A. We reached Lasva in two vehicles, motor vehicles. One was a
14 passenger vehicle; I think it was a Golf A2. And one was a bus -- the
15 other was a bus. The bus had on it 10 to 15 military policemen who had
16 been assigned to this task.
17 Q. You said a moment ago that the situation was unpleasant. Were
18 you immediately given those prisoners, or did you have to undertake some
19 measures to deal with this rather confusing situation in front of the
20 school where there were both civilians and soldiers?
21 A. From the crowd, one could hear various cries addressed to us and
22 comments referring to casualties on the army side. So we had to contact
23 with authority, to calm the situation down, and to escort the prisoners to
24 the bus to board them on the bus and to be able to drive them away.
25 Q. How many prisoners were they, and in what condition were they?
1 A. I think there were about 20 prisoners of war, and all of them
2 except one were in good physical condition. They didn't have any visible
4 Q. And what about this one?
5 A. I was told by a military policeman that a prisoner was
6 complaining of pain and having difficulty in walking. I went up to him
7 and saw that he was bent over, that he couldn't walk, and I told the
8 military policeman to escort him to the passenger car, which he did. So I
9 got into that car with him; whereas, the rest of the prisoners boarded the
10 bus and were escorted to the KP Dom in Zenica.
11 Q. Given the fact that you yourself saw him having difficulty
12 walking, did you inquire as to why that was the case? Did you learn why
13 he was in such a state?
14 A. Yes, I did inquire. In the car on the way back from Lasva to
15 Zenica - which took about 15 minutes - I asked him on two occasions what
16 had happened to him. He was not willing to talk. He just told me -- told
17 me that he participated in combat, that he had been injured, but I could
18 not really understand from his answers what had happened to him and I did
19 not really insist.
20 Q. Since you were in charge of that particular patrol, can you tell
21 me where you took the prisoners once you took them over.
22 A. We took the prisoners to the KP Dom in Zenica, to the prison
24 Q. Did you have any information before you arrived that there had
25 been dead people on both sides?
1 A. No. I learnt about that once I arrived in Lasva. It was then
2 that I learned from the present villagers and soldiers that there had been
3 dead and that the Commander Camdzic and the Commander Rajic were also
5 Q. In relation to these prisoners that you took over and transferred
6 to the reception centre for the prisoners of war, did you personally have
7 any other obligations on that evening or on any of the following days?
8 A. On that evening, we did not have any other duties or obligations.
9 On the following day, I learnt from my colleagues who were on duty that
10 the information came from the mortuary of the hospital in Zenica that a
11 few bodies had been taken to them from the theatre of war and that they
12 were there. And we informed of that to the investigative judge of the
13 military district court.
14 Q. Did you personally go to the mortuary together with the
15 investigative judge? Do you know who were the judges on duty?
16 A. No, I didn't go there personally. As far as I can remember,
17 nobody from the Military Police Battalion went to the mortuary, to the
18 morgue. When I said that we informed the duty judge, I believe that after
19 that the Security Services Centre asked us to help them with the
20 investigation, and I believe that Judge Mirsad Strika established the
21 investigation team, consisting of members of the Security Services Centre
22 and crime technicians of the Security Services Centre of Zenica. So we
23 were not involved.
24 Q. Did you, as a member of the military police, or your colleagues
25 receive any orders or tasks in relation to that investigation?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 A. As far as the investigation is concerned, we received a task from
2 our commander to interrogate all of the prisoners about their
3 participation in combat and the way they were captured.
4 Q. Did you personally speak to any of them?
5 A. Yes. There were three or four more inspectors who were given the
6 same task. On the following day, I spoke to three prisoners of war.
7 Q. Where was it that you carried out your interviews and who were
8 the persons that you personally interviewed, from whom you took
10 A. We performed those interviews in the former JNA centre. This was
11 the place where the Military Police Battalion was billeted at the time.
12 And I spoke to Viktor Rajic, Dragan Rados, and the person whose last name
13 was Kristo, whose first name I can't remember, but I remember him telling
14 me that he worked in the national theatre of Zenica.
15 Q. Were all of them among those whom you had brought from Lasva to
16 the KP Dom the previous evening?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How did you conduct your interviews with these persons? Did
19 either you or any of your colleagues use any inhumane gesture, threat, or
20 anything like that during the interviews that you conducted?
21 A. No. To the contrary. The interviews were conducted in a very
22 relaxed atmosphere, I dare say.
23 Q. Were you interested in the deaths of the persons who got killed
24 on both sides and especially the persons who had been brought to the
25 morgue of the hospital in Zenica?
1 A. Yes, we were interested in that.
2 Q. Did you receive any information as to what had happened?
3 A. While conducting those interviews with the person that I spoke
4 to, they expressed a certain degree of regret that all this had happened
5 at that moment, they wanted to mitigate their role in the events. They
6 were saying that all this should not have happened, that we had lived in
7 peace until then, and so on and so forth. As for the deaths, none of the
8 persons that I spoke to told me that anybody was killed outside combat.
9 According to the information that I received at that moment, all the
10 persons who were killed in Dusina were killed during combat.
11 Q. You said that there were three or four inspectors who
12 participated in the interrogation of these persons. Did your colleagues
13 tell you anything about possibly having received different information,
14 different from the information that you received during your interviews?
15 A. No. All the information that we received was similar to the
16 information that I received from my interviews. I can illustrate this by
17 giving you an example: Viktor Rajic, with whom I spoke, told me he was
18 the brother of the dead Zvonko Rajic. In addition to him being sad over
19 the -- his brother's death, I asked him how his brother had died. He told
20 me that it was during combat, and that was all.
21 As I have already told you, they expressed regret, and Viktor
22 Rajic asked me at some -- one point whether I could help him and whether I
23 could check whether he would have any problems returning to his workplace
24 in the Zenica ironworks, in view of the fact that he had participated in
25 this particular combat.
1 Q. What did you do with the information that you obtained during the
2 interviews with these three people: Rajic, Kristo, and Rados?
3 A. I made the official record of these interviews, and I sent that
4 record to the Security Services Centre of the 3rd Corps, and I believe
5 that the information was also sent to the court because an investigating
6 judge was involved in the investigation of that event.
7 Q. Mr. Saric, did you learn later on how Zvonko Rajic, the brother
8 of Viktor Rajic, had died?
9 A. As an ordinary citizen, an ordinary observer, I have learned from
10 the media recently that before this Tribunal Mrs. Rajic, the wife of the
11 late Rajic, has testified and that she has stated that it was Serif
12 Patkovic who had killed her husband. I also learned from the same sources
13 that Serif Patkovic also testified before this Tribunal and that he denied
15 Also, somebody called Hakanovic has appeared before the cantonal
16 court in Zenica with regard to the events in Lasva. And as far as I know,
17 from the media again, Mrs. Rajic testified before that court as well, and
18 she stated before that court that her husband had not been killed by Serif
19 Patkovic. So until this day, as a policeman, as an ordinary citizen, I
20 have not been provided with the true information as to what had happened
21 at that time.
22 Q. Did you know Serif Patkovic? Did you see him on that night when
23 you took over those prisoners?
24 A. At that moment, I didn't know Serif Patkovic and I didn't see him
25 on that night. Later on I learnt who he was, and I even met him. I know
1 that he was the battalion commander and later on the commander of the 7th
2 Muslim Brigade.
3 Q. I would like to move on to another incident, Mr. Saric. Do you
4 know anything about the kidnapping of Zivko Totic?
5 A. As for the kidnapping of Zivko Totic, like any other member of my
6 service, I received information through the duty service. It was reported
7 to the duty service of the battalion that the escorts of Zivko Totic had
8 been killed and that he himself had been kidnapped. I personally found
9 this information shocking. My colleagues did as well, because we knew
10 these members of the HVO. They were all from Zenica. So we tried
11 to find out who these people were, as ordinary citizens, and we also acted
12 on the report and we informed the investigative judge of the military
13 court, who acted in accordance with his authorities.
14 Q. Did members of the Military Police Battalion or you yourself
15 participate in the investigation or in any activities which might have led
16 to the information as to who had committed this kidnapping?
17 A. As far as I know, once the duty judge was informed, he set up the
18 investigation team, which consisted of members of the Security Services
19 Centre, and I also believe that members from the HVO police of Vitez and
20 Zenica were there and also the Public Security Station members were there.
21 And on behalf of the Military Police Battalion, my colleagues, Karameli
22 [phoen] and Dragan Rankovic were there, to the scene of the crime.
23 Q. You have just told us that there was an on-site inspection.
24 First of all, tell me where this happened. In which area of Zenica?
25 A. This happened on the local road from Zenica to Pobrijezje
2 Q. You have also told us that members of the HVO from the territory
3 that was under the control of the HVO were there. Did you, as a member of
4 the Military Police Battalion of the 3rd Corps, have the authority to
5 investigate crimes that were committed in the territory under the control
6 of the HVO?
7 A. No. Once we made an attempt at such an investigation, that was
8 supposed to take place towards the end of December or beginning of
9 January, 1993. I cooperated with members of the Security Services Centre
10 and we were supposed to investigate a murder in Krusctica, which is one
11 part of the Vitez municipality which was under the control of the HVO. We
12 were not able to do that. We were escorted by the HVO police to the place
13 called Vjetrenice, which was under the control of the BH army. From then
14 on, we could not carry out any investigations or any other policing
15 activities in the areas under the control of the HVO.
16 Q. Let's go back to the kidnapping of Zivko Totic. Did the military
17 policemen in the battalion receive certain tasks or orders that would lead
18 to the answer to the question as to who committed this crime?
19 A. All the available men in the Military Police Battalion were
20 engaged in the activities geared towards finding Mr. Totic. Some of the
21 members were engaged in escorting joint commissions that were set up in
22 order to inspect the villages around Zenica and the other members were
23 engaged in collecting information on the ground that might have led to the
24 reliable information as to who might have committed this crime.
25 Q. You have just told us that these members of the HVO were your
1 acquaintances or colleagues, because you hailed from the same town. What
2 was the relationship between the members of the Military Police Battalion
3 and members of the HVO and the Croatian citizens of Zenica?
4 A. We tried to have correct relationships with members of the Zenica
5 HVO, despite certain provocations and humiliations that we experienced at
6 their hands in Travnik and Zenica. We tried to build our relationship as
7 best as we could, and even when conflicts broke out between the HVO and
8 the BiH army, we tried to carry out the disarmament in the most humane way
10 Q. Can you please explain that, Mr. Saric.
11 A. Yes, certainly. A unit of the HVO that existed in Raspotocje,
12 Zenica municipality, and which had been formed a short while before the
13 conflict - I think it was the 1st Manoeuvring Company under the command of
14 an acquaintance of mine and a colleague from work, from Zadar, Juric
15 Jadranko - was stationed there, and I happened to be in the area during
16 those conflicts. I received information that Juric wanted me to surrender
17 to the Military Police Battalion and that he wanted guarantees. In
18 consultation with the corps command, we were able to guarantee the
19 requests Juric made, so he wanted to surrender. He wanted to surrender
20 his weapons and he wanted guarantees for his security and for the civilian
21 population in the area and that the soldiers of the HVO from that
22 battalion should not be taken to the KP Dom in Zenica.
23 In the local community premises, there were representatives of
24 the local community representing both the Bosniaks and the Croats. And I
25 think that on behalf of the Croats a man called Zvonko Akrepovic was
1 present. The weapons were handed over, and all members of that -- of that
2 company were allowed to go home. And the Military Police Battalion during
3 the next 10 days or so secured the area inhabited by Croat civilians, and
4 not a single HVO soldier was taken to the KP Dom. I don't know whether I
5 mentioned that.
6 Q. Tell me, what were the tasks of the Military Police Battalion
7 with respect to representatives of the International Community and
8 international organisations that were there?
9 A. In view of the blockade of the area, there was increasing demand
10 for food, so the question of hunger became a question of security too, and
11 there were increasing possibilities for a humanitarian organisation which
12 was transporting food to come under attack, so that the food and the goods
13 they were transporting might be looted.
14 Q. Was there any such incident and were you involved in any way --
15 or rather, the Military Police Battalion?
16 A. I personally was not involved in any such incident, but I do know
17 with certainty that at the beginning of September 1993 we received a
18 report that a UNHCR convoy had been blocked in the settlement of Ticici
19 [phoen] on the main road, between Kakanj and Zenica.
20 Q. And who carried out the blockade?
21 A. A large group of civilians and military men. They blocked the
22 convoy and started taking down bags of flour. When we received that
23 report, a patrol of the Military Police Battalion went there, and upon
24 arrival they met with resistance of those present and there was even a
25 grenade thrown at members of the military police.
1 Q. Were there any casualties and did the patrol manage to secure the
2 passage of the UNHCR convoy?
3 A. On that occasion, several people were wounded; some more
4 seriously, some more lightly, members of the Military Police Battalion.
5 And I know that the military policeman Topalovic Dzemal suffered serious
6 bodily injury and he became a 70 per cent invalid. As for the question
7 whether the convoy reached its destination, the answer is yes.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to stop there
9 because it's quarter to 4.00. So we'll have the break now, and we'll
10 resume at ten past 4.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall give the floor again to
14 the Defence, but I don't think they have much time left.
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Q. Mr. Saric, before the break you will remember that you explained
17 that your military police patrol was attacked and what the consequences
18 were. My question was whether your battalion's patrol managed
19 nevertheless to escort the convoy and -- to escort the convoy safely to
20 its destination.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Tell me, were you satisfied with the fact that you had escorted
23 the convoy, or did the battalion undertake other measures as well?
24 A. In cooperation with the Public Security Station in Kakanj, or the
25 Security Services Centre in Zenica, worked on the identification of the
1 persons who were involved in the incident, and after operative activities
2 on the ground, the persons who were involved in the incident were
3 identified, taken into custody, processed, and the competent prosecutor's
4 office filed criminal reports against seven persons for various criminal
5 offences they committed: Causing general danger, attacking a military
6 officer while performing his duties, being in possession of explosives and
7 weapons, and the like.
8 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Saric, let me go back a moment to some
9 previous questions linked to your duties when interrogating persons
10 captured in Dusina and taken to the KP Dom. Tell me, please: Rados
11 Dragan, was he taken to the KP Dom that same evening by the Military
12 Police Battalion?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. If I were to tell you that witness Dragan Rados testifying in
15 this court claimed that previously he was somewhere else and that after
16 that he was brought to the KP Dom, what would your response be?
17 A. My response would be that that is not true, because, as I have
18 already said, I interviewed Dragan Rados, among other people, in the place
19 I mentioned, the former JNA club, where the Military Police Battalion was
20 housed at the time.
21 Q. Those persons from whom you took statements, where were they
22 taken after that?
23 A. All those persons were taken back to the KP Dom in Zenica again.
24 Q. Thank you. In view of the fact that during your testimony,
25 Mr. Saric, you mentioned certain locations in Zenica --
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Mr. President, I
2 would like to show the witness a map of Zenica, excerpt from set 5, in the
3 scale 1 to 25.000, for the witness to mark the places that he mentioned in
4 his testimony. As I only have one copy, I'd like it to be placed on the
5 ELMO so that we could follow.
6 Q. Mr. Saric, do you recognise this map? What does it show?
7 A. Yes. This is my native town.
8 Q. Mr. Saric, will you please take a marker and mark the facilities
9 I will mention and that you spoke about in the course of your testimony,
10 and from that spot will you draw a line and write down what the facility
11 is, and after that I'll ask you to sign the map. Do you understand?
12 A. Yes. But where shall I write the name?
13 Q. Tell me, where is the 3rd Corps command of which you were the
15 A. The command was close to gate number 4 of the Zenica ironworks.
16 Q. Will you put a number there, an "X" and a number "1".
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. And draw a line, and on the white border, write down "3rd Corps
19 command." From "1", draw a line to the frame.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Tell me now: The spot where you interrogated these people, the
22 JNA club where the Military Police Battalion was housed at the time or was
23 based at the time.
24 A. It would be roughly here.
25 Q. Put an "X" and a number "2" and a line and write down "The JNA
1 army club."
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Now show us the KP Dom, where you took the people from Dusina and
4 where your battalion command was based later on.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Will you please mark Ricica, the locality where the -- no,
7 Raspotocje, where the Military Battalion disarmed this battalion of the
8 2nd HVO Brigade.
9 A. I don't think it is shown on this map, but it is here. This is
10 the beginning of that locality. Raspotocje. But there's more of it off
11 the map.
12 Q. Could you now mark where Zivko Totic was kidnapped. You said it
13 was in a street in Pobrijezje.
14 A. Yes, here, along this stretch of road.
15 Q. I shall now ask you to mark the position of the district military
16 court in Zenica.
17 A. It is here within this block of buildings.
18 Q. Now, will you please tell us where the centre of the security
19 services was in Zenica that you said you cooperated with.
20 A. It was somewhere here. The square is called the
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina Square.
22 Q. Will you also show us the position of the higher and basic
23 courts -- or rather, prosecutor's offices -- basic and higher prosecutor's
24 offices in Zenica.
25 A. This is the higher court, and the basic court is very nearby.
1 Q. And can you also show the position of the music school, please.
2 A. The music school -- there's a park here. It was here.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence of General Kubura.
4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We need a point of
5 clarification. I don't think the witness mentioned the music school at
6 all; although, that was how this set of questions was introduced.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct. He's drawn it
8 now. I apologise for mentioning the music school.
9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's not very serious, because
10 I wanted him to mark it. So it's always useful.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Q. Now, will you now sign the map.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Captain, could you on this map
14 point to the hotel where members of international organisations were
15 housed. They must have stayed at a hotel. So could you show us where
16 that hotel was, if you know, of course.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do know. The Internacional
18 Hotel is close to the stadium.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the witness to
20 date and sign this map with his markings on it, and I should like to
21 tender this document into evidence, and that ends my questions for this
22 witness. Thank you.
23 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 The lawyers for General Kubura.
1 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
2 don't have any questions for this witness at this point.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution then.
4 Cross-examined by Mr. Neuner:
5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Saric.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. My name is Matthias Neuner, and I'm appearing here on behalf of
8 the Prosecution, and I will put a couple of questions to you. If you
9 don't understand any of these questions, I'm asking you to tell me that I
10 repeat the question. I'm also prepared to rephrase a question if
11 necessary. Do you understand this?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Apart from the 3rd Corps military police, which other MP,
14 military police units were stationed in Zenica in 1993?
15 A. I think I said that there were the military police of the 303rd
16 Brigade, of the 314th, and of the 7th Muslim Brigade.
17 Q. You also said that the commanders of this military -- of these
18 brigades of military police would first of all report to the military
19 security staff in their brigades. What I'm asking for is did at some
20 point in the chain of command the brigade's military police also report to
21 the 3rd Corps military police?
22 A. I said that the military police within the brigades was under the
23 command of the brigade commander through the military security service.
24 The 3rd Corps military battalion did not have any right to give orders to
25 those units.
1 Q. I wasn't asking for orders given downwards. I was more asking
2 for reports going upwards. If military police units of brigades found
3 something out, for example, in relation to the abduction of Zivko Totic,
4 would they convey, would they report that information also to the 3rd
5 Corps military police?
6 A. Along the line of reporting, they were obliged to inform the
7 military police of the 3rd Corps. And if we received such information, we
8 would forward it on and act accordingly in line with the law.
9 Q. In 1993, did you, as a member of the 3rd Corps military police,
10 ever cooperate with the military police of the 7th Muslim Mountain
12 A. I personally cannot remember taking part in any action with the
13 military police of the 7th Muslim Brigade.
14 Q. But your colleagues did?
15 A. Possibly.
16 Q. When you started in the 3rd Corps military police, by mid-January
17 1993 how many men were there in the 3rd Corps military police?
18 A. I believe - and I don't know whether I'm correct or not - that
19 there were between 250 and 300 members at that moment.
20 Q. You mentioned there were two chiefs, Mr. Bakir Alispahic and
21 Mr. Ismet Skopljak. Can you just clarify. By January -- or mid-January
22 1993, who was in charge of the 3rd Corps military police? Mr. Alispahic
23 or Mr. Skopljak?
24 A. You didn't understand me well. I was in the third tier of
25 command. My commander was Zaim Mujezinovic and at one point it was Bakir
1 Alispahic, who was my superior who was in charge of the department. My
2 superior was Bakir Alispahic and his superior was Zaim Mujezinovic.
3 Q. If you're referring to "department," you're referring to the
4 Department of Investigations.
5 A. Yes, the Department for Services implies all the services:
6 Patrol, escort, communications, traffic control, security, escort. And I
7 believe that these are the seven services that we had.
8 Q. And Mr. Skopljak, can you just clarify. What position did he
9 hold in January 1993?
10 A. In January 1993, Mr. Skopljak was an inspector in the Department
11 for Services, and then in April or maybe in June he became commander of
12 the Department for Services, replacing Bakir Alispahic in that position.
13 Q. And you yourself served throughout 1993 as an inspector.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Please describe briefly your main tasks.
16 A. In a nutshell, my duties as a crime-prevention inspector was when
17 I learned that a crime was committed that was prosecuted ex officio, in
18 cooperation -- firstly, the duty service would inform the duty judge of
19 the district court. And if he wanted us to collect information, we would
20 do that. If the crime was committed by an unknown perpetrator, we
21 collected information and analysed it with a view to detecting the
22 perpetrator. So this would be in a nutshell the duties that I performed.
23 Q. You mentioned that Bakir Alispahic was your superior in the first
24 half of 1993. Did he attend interrogations with prisoners of war?
25 A. I don't remember whether he did, whether he was present in the
1 area where we interrogated them. This was a rather large office. He may
2 have been there, but he didn't have to be there. I don't remember whether
3 he was. In any case, we received our orders from him.
4 Q. You mentioned that sometimes reports would be sent to the
5 battalion command and sometimes directly to the 3rd Corps command. Can
6 you clarify when such reports were sent to the 3rd Corps command.
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I did not hear the witness saying
10 that he was reporting directly to the command of the 3rd Corps. Maybe my
11 learned friend could explain himself.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Prosecution, could you
13 please be more precise in putting your question to the witness regarding
14 the reports and where they went. The Defence would like you to clarify
16 MR. NEUNER: I haven't written down the transcript page. I
17 cannot submit it at this point in time. I think, yeah, I just found it.
18 One second. I cannot submit it at this point in time. I will ask another
19 question, Your Honour.
20 It was on page 15. I cannot give any line. I just wrote this
21 down that on page 15 information was forwarded to the battalion command or
22 to the corps command. I just wanted to clarify this. That -- this was
23 the purpose of my question.
24 Q. Maybe, witness, you can clarify. Did you never send any reports
25 to the 3rd Corps command, or did this occasionally occur?
1 A. No. The department was part of the system of command and control
2 of the police battalion, and all the reports were forwarded via the
3 Military Police Battalion.
4 Q. Mr. Mujezinovic upon receiving a report, to whom would he send
5 his reports? To whom would he forward this information?
6 A. He would forward those reports to the Security Services Centre of
7 the 3rd Corps.
8 Q. The military security of the 3rd Corps.
9 A. Yes, of course.
10 Q. And this would be Mr. Ramiz Dugalic? Would he send it to the
11 head of the military security or to somebody else?
12 A. Directly to the chief of services.
13 Q. Thank you. In 1993, was the KP Dom also referred to as, and I
14 quote, "collection centre in Zenica"?
15 A. The name was not used for the complete KP Dom. There were still
16 parts that were under the jurisdiction of the civilian courts. One part
17 of the KP Dom was rearranged, and it was a reception centre for the
18 reception of prisoners of war.
19 Q. If a document would contain a reference to "collection centre"
20 and not to a "reception centre," to a collection centre in Zenica -- I
21 wasn't on the ground in 1993. To your estimate, to which facility would
22 this document relate to?
23 A. I've never heard the term "collection centre" before.
24 Q. You mentioned already that prisoners were brought to the KP Dom
25 from Lasva, from the elementary school. Do you remember from which other
1 detention facilities in the 3rd Corps area of responsibility prisoners of
2 war were brought to the KP Dom?
3 A. Are you referring to the centre for reception of prisoners of
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. The centre was established in June when the first conflicts with
7 the Serbs in Zenica broke out. Then it started functioning. And if there
8 was any need to bring in prisoners of war from wherever, they would be
9 brought to this reception centre. That was a rule.
10 Q. You mentioned in June. Do I take it this was -- you're referring
11 to June 1993?
12 A. No, June 1992, when there were conflicts with the Serbs in
14 Q. Thank you for the clarification.
15 If I may ask, were prisoners of war from the JNA barracks in
16 Travnik brought to the collection centre? The KP Dom in Zenica.
17 A. I wouldn't know.
18 Q. Were any members from the Zenica -- were any prisoners from the
19 Zenica Music School ever brought to the collection centre, the Zenica KP
21 A. Again, I wouldn't know.
22 Q. So apart from conducting interviews, did you have any contact to
23 prisoners of war at the Zenica KP Dom collection centre?
24 A. Are you referring to the prisoners that we had brought from
25 Dusina? Are you referring to these specific prisoners of war?
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. In general, during your tasks you were engaged in in 1993, did
2 you have any contact with prisoners of war while working in 1993 in
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Can you please briefly explain what contact you had.
6 A. Like in the first case: We took statements that we forwarded to
7 the military district court. We -- we took statements in which we
8 described the participation of these prisoners of war in combat.
9 Q. Did you take these statements always in Zenica, or did you
10 occasionally also travel somewhere else to where the prisoners were held
11 in temporary detention facilities?
12 A. I took such statements exclusively in the Zenica KP Dom.
13 Q. Who told you on the 26th of January, 1993 to collect the captured
14 persons in Lasva?
15 A. I don't understand. We did not collect anybody there. We just
16 took them over.
17 Q. So who was in Zenica - the person - who told you to take the
18 prisoners over from Lasva?
19 A. The commander of the battalion of the military police, through my
20 superior, Bakir Alispahic.
21 Q. And during your travel to Lasva and on the spot, who was in
22 charge of the 3rd Corps Military Police Staff during the takeover or
23 transfer of prisoners?
24 A. I was in charge of that.
25 Q. When you arrived in Lasva itself, to which ABiH soldiers present
1 there did you speak first?
2 A. I didn't know them. I believe that they were members of the 2nd
3 PDO and members of the 7th Muslim Brigade.
4 Q. And do you remember any names of the commander or of the persons
5 you spoke to?
6 A. No, I really don't remember.
7 Q. So did you speak outside of the school to these persons? Did you
8 enter a building?
9 A. I believe that it was at the entrance to the building. I
10 remember that there was no light. It was already dark. And the members
11 of the military unit that had participated in combat on that day, I spoke
12 to them at the entrance to the school.
13 Q. What did they tell you, these members of the military units?
14 A. They told me more or less something along the following lines:
15 That there is no problem, that they would hand over the prisoners of war
16 to us after certain consultations with their superiors.
17 Q. And do you know who their own superiors were, or were you present
18 when they consulted their own superiors?
19 A. No, I wasn't present and I don't know who their superiors were.
20 Q. You yourself, did you ever enter the elementary school in Lasva?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You testified that there was - and I quote - "an unpleasant
23 situation on the ground" in Lasva. What do you mean by "unpleasant
24 situation on the ground"?
25 A. I meant what I said. For me it was an unpleasant situation
1 because there were a lot of civilians and a lot of soldiers there. It was
2 noisy, and I had a mission to carry out.
3 Q. What was your impression? Who was, before you arrived, in charge
4 of the prisoners? Was it the members from the 2nd, I think, Battalion of
5 the Zenica Municipal Defence Staff, or was it, rather, the 7th Muslim
6 Mountain Brigade soldiers?
7 A. I'm not sure who it was. I know that these two units were active
8 in the area. I really don't know who was in charge of the prisoners.
9 Q. How many men altogether did you take back to Zenica? I mean
10 prisoners of war.
11 A. Yes. I believe that there were approximately 20 of them. I
12 can't be sure of their exact number. Twenty or so.
13 Q. And you mentioned that there was one prisoner who had
14 difficulties of some kind who was put in a car. He couldn't walk. Was he
15 injured? Can you please just tell.
16 A. A member of the military police informed me that one of the
17 prisoners was complaining of pain, that he had problems walking. He could
18 walk, but he had problems walking. I did not see any visible injuries on
19 his body, but I myself could see that he had problems walking. I ordered
20 for this prisoner to be put in the passenger vehicle and to sit in there.
21 Q. Were you aware that all prisoners were going to the Zenica KP
22 Dom, or was there a few other prisoners who were going in another
23 direction? Did you see everybody boarding the bus before you left with
24 the car?
25 A. All the prisoners of war that I took over boarded the bus, and
1 they were all brought to the Zenica KP Dom.
2 Q. Was there a second person who took over other prisoners?
3 A. While I was there, nobody else was there.
4 Q. When you left, were there any prisoners of war remaining in
5 Lasva? I mean, you hadn't looked in the school itself, but did you see
6 that a few Croat prisoners stayed in Lasva?
7 A. I don't know. The prisoners that I took over were transferred to
8 the KP Dom.
9 Q. And in Lasva itself, did you see Dragan Rados boarding the bus to
10 the KP Dom Zenica?
11 A. At that moment, I didn't know who Dragan Rados was. On the
12 following day, I spoke to him and I know that he is the man who boarded
13 the bus on that day. He was taken to the KP Dom. And on the following
14 day, he was one of the persons whom I interviewed, Dragan Rados.
15 Q. So you positively saw him entering the bus, which was then driven
16 to the KP Dom.
17 A. At the moment when I was taking the prisoners over, I didn't know
18 who Dragan Rados was. On the following day, I spoke to three prisoners
19 and Dragan Rados was among them. So I know for a fact that he was amongst
20 those who had boarded the buses, who had been taken to the JNA centre, and
21 he was among the three with whom I spoke on the following day.
22 Q. You mentioned in your testimony that somebody talked in Lasva
23 about battle casualties. Who exactly was this person? Do you remember
24 anything, from which ABiH unit this person was, his name?
25 A. No. I've told you that the soldiers were mixed with the
1 civilians, and I really can't remember who it was in the crowd, who said
2 that. It was dark and there were a lot of people there. But I learnt
3 that in the combat that had taken place that day, earlier that day, that
4 there were casualties on both sides.
5 Q. What exactly did you learn about the casualties? A number, an
7 A. Nothing precise. I only learnt that on the BiH army side Camdzic
8 was killed together with another member, and also that the commander of
9 the area of the HVO, Zvonko Rajic, was also killed. And this is all the
10 information that I had at the time.
11 Q. You mentioned three names: Viktor Rajic, Dragan Rados, and a
12 person you described as Kristo. If I may ask: Would it refresh your
13 recollection if this person is called Anto Kristo or Franjo Kristo? I'm
14 just asking. Maybe you recall.
15 A. I don't know. Kristo is a very popular name, and the first name
16 is either Franjo or Anto or Stipe, which is again a popular name. But I
17 remember him because he told me that he worked at the national theatre of
18 Zenica, and that's how I remember him.
19 Q. And who tasked you the next day, on the 27th of January, to take
20 the statements?
21 A. The investigative judge of the district court was already
22 involved in the investigation. We received our orders from him, the
23 order -- the orders to collect information. We received this order from
24 the battalion command, to -- to collect the statements. And -- and the
25 MUP was involved in the rest of the crime investigation.
1 Q. Do you know the name of the investigative judge?
2 A. There were only four or five such judges at the time, and I
3 believe that on that particular occasion it was Mirsad Strika who was on
5 Q. How many statements were taken altogether, not only by you but
6 maybe by your colleagues?
7 A. Maybe four or five. And I took three statements. And if you
8 multiply that by the number of us, you will arrive at a number of maybe 15
9 to 20. And that pretty much equals the number of prisoners that we had
10 brought in.
11 Q. So I take it virtually every of these prisoners who were taken or
12 transferred from Lasva to KP Dom were interviewed?
13 A. I cannot be sure of that. I can't be positive of that. I know
14 that I took three statements. I don't know who else took any other
15 statements, whether all the prisoners were interviewed or not. I suppose
16 that they were.
17 Q. And these statements, did you write the statements down and have
18 the interrogated person sign it at the end?
19 A. Yes. This is how we worked, and we forwarded the statements to
20 be enclosed with the court file, because we worked at the request of the
22 Q. So you want to say that you forwarded them to Judge Strika, the
23 investigative judge.
24 A. Yes, to Judge Strika, who was in charge of the investigation.
25 And we also forwarded an official record to the military security services
1 centre via our battalion command.
2 Q. And did you write also your own assessment after having taken
3 these statements, what transpired out of these statements? Do you recall
4 that you wrote something maybe to your superior?
5 A. Yes. More or less what I've already said in response to
6 Mrs. Residovic's questions. These members of the HVO, these prisoners,
7 mostly wanted to mitigate their responsibility and their participation.
8 They expressed regret, but none of them told me anything that might have
9 pointed to something illegal having taken place.
10 Q. Did you or your colleagues perform an on-site visit in Dusina
12 A. No, because the duty judge in the district military court took
13 over the case, and as I have already said, in such cases he is in charge
14 of the investigation and he issues orders. It is only upon his
15 instructions that it is possible to take any measures.
16 Q. So I understand that no on-site visit was being -- taking place.
17 A. No, I personally didn't make such a visit, and if the duty judge
18 had given such instructions, it would have been done. Now, why it wasn't,
19 I don't know.
20 Q. Would the 3rd Corps military police normally be the unit who
21 would perform such an on-site visit, since you had interviewed already a
22 few prisoners of war? Would the 3rd Corps military police have done such
23 an on-site visit?
24 A. It would be customary if we had received such orders from the
25 duty judge in the district military court.
1 Q. When foreigners were suspected of being involved in crimes and
2 then the Rules of Service of the military police of the ABiH envisaged
3 mandatory cooperation between the MUP and the CSB -- between the 3rd Corps
4 military police, on the one hand side, and the MUP and the CSB, on the
5 other hand side. Can you confirm that?
6 A. I said that if civilians had taken part in committing crimes
7 which are prosecuted by -- ex officio and if military property had been
8 stolen or damaged and, in the case of criminal offences that I have
9 already listed, then cooperation is established with the Security Services
11 MR. NEUNER: With the assistance of the usher, can I just
12 distribute P328. These are the Rules of the Service of the military
13 police of the ABiH, and I'm referring to section 50, the last sentence of
14 section 50. This is contained in Chapter 2, "Military police services,"
15 under the heading 7, "Crime prevention service."
16 Q. Yes, it is page 22. I'm only interested in the last sentence.
17 Can you please read the last sentence out loud.
18 A. Did you say paragraph 50?
19 Q. Paragraph 50, yes. Last sentence.
20 A. "When we are talking about military offences that the military
21 police has to investigate, when the perpetrator or accomplice of a
22 criminal offence is a citizen of the republic who is not a member of the
23 armed forces or a foreign citizen without diplomatic status, the necessary
24 measure shall be taken by the authorised official of the military police
25 in collaboration with the competent MUP organs."
1 Q. Thank you. What is the reason for ordering a mandatory
2 cooperation between, for example, the 3rd Corps military police and the
3 Zenica CSB in case that a foreigner is suspected of being a perpetrator of
4 a crime? Can you explain?
5 A. I think I've already explained how we cooperated with the
6 Security Services Centre and MUP. If we are talking about criminal
7 offences that are prosecuted, such as the foundations of the social order
8 and crimes against the armed forces committed by civilians or by a
9 foreigner, in that case cooperation had to be established with the CSB and
10 the MUP. So the military police in that case was not independent in
11 performing its duties.
12 Q. So whenever a foreigner was involved, basically cooperation with
13 the CSB Zenica by the 3rd Corps military police was mandatory, is it?
14 A. No. If a foreigner is a perpetrator of an offence which comes
15 within the jurisdiction of the military court, then the military police is
16 not duty-bound to react. But for only those criminal offences that I have
17 listed. If a foreigner committed an offence which was not against the
18 army as the damaged party, then this cooperation is not mandatory, but
19 only if the armed forces are the damaged party. Then the same rules apply
20 for civilians and for foreigners.
21 Q. If you'd look again at the last sentence of paragraph 50. It
22 just talks about criminal offence. It doesn't talk about, as you stated
23 before, a crime against the army committed by this foreigner or whatever.
24 It just talks about a criminal offence, any criminal offence, isn't it?
25 A. No. I have to read the previous sentence: "When criminal
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 offences are acted on by the military security service, the competent
2 organ of the military security service is immediately informed thereof and
3 the military police organs undertake measures which brook no delay," so
4 the criminal offences are those directed against the foundations of the
5 social order, as I have already listed. And one would have to look at the
6 Law on Criminal Procedure as well to have full insight.
7 Q. If I move on to the Totic abduction. In the aftermath of this
8 abduction occurring on the 15th of April, 1993, were there any joint
9 meetings held between the 3rd Corps, its military police, and the CSB
11 A. Probably yes, but I was not at such a level as to attend such
13 Q. Just -- I'm mentioning two names from the CSB Zenica. Do you
14 know Faik Badic and Enes Saric, who also participated in measures relating
15 to the Totic abduction? Do you know them?
16 A. It's Faik Spahic and -- not "Badic," and Enes Saric. Yes, I do
17 know them.
18 Q. Do you know about their involvement in the investigations
19 relating to Totic's kidnapping?
20 A. No, I don't know.
21 Q. Do you know whether any information exchange occurred between the
22 military police of the 3rd Corps and the CSB Zenica?
23 A. Yes, I think that a broad-based campaign was conducted. Parts of
24 the MP battalion were engaged to escort mixed commissions formed to tour
25 the villages around Zenica, and a second group of members of the military
1 police were engaged for operative work on the ground to collect
2 information about the abduction, and of course there was an exchange of
3 information with members of the CSB.
4 Q. So isn't it that when one group had found out something during
5 the search of the terrain or the monitoring of the terrain, that it would
6 report on a kind of conference or meeting on the next day -- it would
7 report simply its results so that by sharing information, the most
8 effective measures were implemented to find Zivko Totic, isn't it?
9 A. I believe so. But I must repeat. I did not attend such
10 meetings, and I don't know how the exchange of information was carried
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has
13 just answered the question. I just wanted to object because the witness
14 said previously that he was not at such a level to be able to attend these
15 meetings. But my learned friend insists on meetings, and I was going to
16 say that there was no grounds for continuing with such line of
17 questioning. But the witness has just repeated the same statement.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Prosecution, please
20 MR. NEUNER:
21 Q. Can you describe your role in the Totic investigation. You were
22 attending the on-site visit in Pobrijezje, I understand, but did you do
23 something else?
24 A. I did not go on site. You misunderstood. What I told you here
25 is information that I received from my colleagues who returned from the
1 on-site visit. My role was to collect operative information from
2 citizens, from members of the army, from various entities, information
3 that I was able to get hold of so that as part of this broad-based action
4 we might gain insight into reliable information as to how Mr. Totic was
6 Q. What specific measures did you take and when did you take them?
7 Can you please elaborate a little bit.
8 A. The investigation went on for about four or five days, I think,
9 and the measures I took stemmed from my functional duties, and that is to
10 collect operative knowledge on the ground in the town of Zenica, in the
11 village of Pobrijezje, other villages near Zenica. That is what operative
12 work is all about, working with people who might have some knowledge about
13 the matter, and talking to them I might be able to contribute to the
14 overall investigation.
15 Q. So you took witness statements when talking to certain people in
16 Pobrijezje or in other villages surrounding Zenica, as you just mentioned?
17 A. I didn't understand the question.
18 Q. You mentioned that you talked to them - meaning you talked to
19 people - in order to contribute to the overall investigation. These talks
20 which you held, were you taking witness statements or ...?
21 A. No. I didn't talk to witnesses. My work was based on collecting
22 information. As a matter of principle, all inspectors engaging in such
23 activities were able to collect information, but those statements could
24 not be used as evidence in court and they were not relevant in the
25 pre-trial proceedings.
1 Q. You mentioned other villages in the surroundings of Zenica. Do
2 you still recall the names of these villages? In which direction did you
4 A. In the direction of the village Pobrijezje, Babino - this is a
5 large area - I said that this went on for three or four days, and I was
6 able to tour those villages, but I also collected information in the town
7 of Zenica itself.
8 Q. If I would show you a map of the area, would you be in a position
9 to point out whereabouts you went?
10 A. Yes, certainly.
11 MR. NEUNER: We have also copies for everybody.
12 Q. As a starting point, you have already mentioned the point of the
13 abduction, and you have encircled that on the other map shown by my
14 learned friend. Can you just show where the abduction occurred in
16 MR. NEUNER: With the assistance of the usher, if the map could
17 be moved a little bit. Thank you.
18 A. [Indicates]
19 Q. Can you please encircle the place Pobrijezje and mark with a "1".
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. So where next did you go? Or first of all, what did you do in
22 Pobrijezje, you yourself?
23 A. I came to Podbrezje the next day or the day after. I have some
24 friends there. I tried to find out from them where they had seen anything
25 or heard anything, whether they knew anything about the way in which the
1 abduction took place and about the event itself.
2 Q. And what did you hear?
3 A. Yes, I heard that Mr. Zivko Totic had been abducted from four
4 unidentified persons -- or rather, four persons had been killed from the
5 escort, that he was kidnapped by unknown people, that Mr. Totic was in a
6 van, a motor vehicle, and that he was driven off in an unknown direction.
7 That was the information I was able to collect in that area. Nothing more
8 than that.
9 Q. Did you know the colour of the van in which Mr. Totic was driven
11 A. I really can't remember now. Maybe I knew at the time, but now I
12 can't remember.
13 Q. And where did you go next?
14 A. After that, I was in the town of Zenica itself. I went to the
15 area of this, Babino, Pesivica, Kasapovici, Kula. And I collected
16 information there too.
17 Q. Did you know that on the day, the 15th of April, 1993 -- on the
18 day itself a second on-site visit was conducted in Babino-Rijeka area,
19 that there was a van which was crushed into a bridge fence? Did you hear
20 about this?
21 A. [No interpretation]
22 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I don't get any interpretation.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness.
24 MR. NEUNER:
25 Q. Could you please repeat your answer.
1 A. I think there was a misinterpretation. I was told that the van
2 had hit against some sort of boat. But anyway, I hadn't heard anything
3 like that.
4 Q. What I was asking for: You said you went to the Babina
5 settlement. There is a document DH340 in evidence, and this document
6 mentions the second on-site visit which was conducted on the 15th of
7 April, 1993 and this second on-site visit was in Babino area exactly where
8 you appear to have been and a red van was found there, a Ford van. Do you
9 recall having been in Babino yourself, having seen that van or having been
10 on the spot?
11 A. I've already told you that a broad action was mobilised and that
12 members of the military police covered a vast area. Babino is a very
13 large area, and I wasn't there at that time.
14 Q. And when did you go to Babino, please?
15 A. I was there at the beginning of the village. I didn't go further
16 up. It's a mountainous area. Kasapovici Kula. I don't know exactly what
17 day, but that is where I went.
18 Q. Can you please encircle Babino area for everybody.
19 A. In my understanding, Babino is a vast area covering all these
20 villages. All these villages, Jurjevici, Vranovici, Lijeske. All this is
21 Babino. Kula, Novo Selo. Roughly all of this. It's a very large area.
22 Q. Okay. And to the east, can you just mark, because it isn't clear
23 to me as you have marked it -- to the east, where is the eastern border or
24 maybe you cannot even see the eastern border on this map.
25 A. It borders on the municipality of Kakanj, the village of
1 Radinovici [phoen] and many other villages are there.
2 Q. So it would be the entire upper right-hand corner of this map
3 basically, as you have halfway encircled it; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, quite. That is the area of Babino, all of this.
5 Q. To the best of my recollection of your recollection, in 1993,
6 which ABiH unit were stationed in this vast area you just described?
7 A. I don't remember that any unit of the army was stationed in that
8 area. The barracks were in the town of Zenica. But territorially they
9 were covered by the anti-sabotage detachments. I don't know which, 1st,
10 2nd, or 3rd Detachment. So the local population who defended the area
11 from any possibility of saboteurs infiltrating it.
12 Q. Anti-sabotage detachment, are you talking about the District
13 Staff in Zenica or the Municipal Staff in Zenica? Just for clarification.
14 A. These units were subordinated to the Municipal Staff of Zenica.
15 Q. Thank you. And Mr. Mahir told us you went to Arnauti. Did you
16 yourself go to Arnauti?
17 A. If he said he was in Arnauti, he probably was. I was not.
18 Q. So which other -- which are the village did you visit during
19 your time, during your investigations?
20 A. I said that the investigation didn't last long, that it was a
21 large area. I went to Kasapovici, Kula. At the beginning of Babino, I
22 was in Podbrezje, and I collected information about potential perpetrators
23 in the town of Zenica. That is what I did over a period of four days.
24 Q. Can you please mark Kula. I think it is number 2 or -- I think
25 it's number 2, if you'd encircle it.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. And Kasapovici, please encircle this and place next to it a "3".
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. What was the reason, to the best of your recollection, that the
5 investigations were focussing on this area?
6 A. The reason was that parallel with these investigations of ours, a
7 mixed commission had been formed which was touring the same area. So we
8 pooled our efforts with the work of the commission, and I, as an inspector
9 in the services department, visited this one area.
10 Q. But my question is: Why focussing on an area south-east of
11 Zenica? Why not on the north-west or other places? To the best of your
12 recollection, why did the main investigative activities focus on this
14 A. Because that was the assignment I was given. I said that on the
15 first day I went to quite the opposite side, the village of Podbrezje. So
16 that is perhaps north-west. It is quite in the opposite direction.
17 Someone else was assigned to tour some other regions. So what I said was
18 collecting information in the field. This is called "operative work."
19 Q. Can you please encircle "Arnauti" and place a "4" next to it.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Thank you. Have you ever heard of a village or a hamlet called
23 A. I think that there's a place called Gradina in Busovaca
24 municipality. I'm not familiar with that village in this area. I only
25 know of a Gradina near Putis in Busovaca municipality, a place called
2 Q. There's a Gradina there, but there's also another Gradina 3 to 4
3 kilometres away from Arnauti, but you obviously haven't heard about this.
4 A. I never heard of that Gradina.
5 Q. Do you know in the area where an Uma Maslic [phoen] Elementary
6 School was located?
7 A. I believe that this elementary school is now called Mesa
8 Selimovic, but I'm not sure.
9 Q. Would you be in a position to find it on the map?
10 A. If I understand you well, we are talking about a school in
11 Zenica. In Talica Brdo Street.
12 Q. No, thank you. This is -- this is another school.
13 A. [No interpretation]
14 Q. Yes. Thank you.
15 Did you ever hear, either during your military police
16 investigations or otherwise, that certain individuals were involved in
17 kidnapping Mr. Totic? Did you hear any names?
18 A. No, we didn't hear names. I believe that the investigation was
19 interrupted because an international organisation the name of which I
20 can't remember at the moment asked for the investigation to be called off
21 because they feared for the security of the kidnapped person, and that's
22 why the investigation was interrupted.
23 Q. Did you ever hear mention of the name Ramo Durmis in relation to
24 the investigation or in relation to the abduction of Zivko Totic?
25 A. I can't remember ever hearing -- that I ever heard anybody
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 mentioning that name.
2 Q. Did you ever hear the name Sabahudin Adilovic.
3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I didn't want to
4 interrupt my learned friend; however, the past several questions have had
5 nothing to do with my questions or the answers that the witness has
6 provided so far. If my learned friend thinks that he has reason for these
7 questions to be put, then he has to lay a legal foundation for asking
8 questions about certain persons and names. So far he has mentioned two
9 names without laying any legal foundation for such questions. And I think
10 that this shouldn't be allowed.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you've heard
12 the objection by the Defence. Could you tell us what are you trying to
13 achieve. What have you established with regard to Ramo Durmis and how
14 could this witness be involved with that person? The Defence says that
15 they haven't mentioned this name in their examination-in-chief, and if you
16 want to mention this name, if you want to ask the witness about this
17 person, what is your foundation? What are the legal grounds for this?
18 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, first of all, the -- my learned friend
19 has put several questions in relation to the Totic abduction, and I think
20 this is the first time that now through the map and all the places which
21 were indeed visited by this witness, that we see where the scope of the
22 main investigative activity was. And the very fact that the Prosecution
23 is asking for some knowledge about whether certain names came up in
24 investigation is just a way of exploring what the witness may know. He is
25 free to say, "I have never heard these names during my investigation."
1 That's indeed the aim of the Prosecution, just to find out whether certain
2 names and knowledge about certain names existed at a certain period in
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you may proceed in asking
5 whether in his investigation he heard certain names being mentioned, and
6 we shall see whether he says yes or no. If he says yes, then you can ask
7 him whether he knows Adilovic or Durmis. You may repeat your question.
8 You may proceed.
9 MR. NEUNER:
10 Q. First of all, since I have mentioned the name Ramo Durmis
11 already, does the name Ramo Durmis -- not necessarily in relation to
12 Totic -- have you ever heard the name Ramo Durmis?
13 A. Yes, I've heard of Ramo Durmis.
14 Q. Can you please tell us what you have heard about him.
15 A. I first learned of him towards the end of 1992 during the
16 fighting for deblocking the city of Sarajevo. At that time, he clashed
17 with certain commanders in the territory of Visoko, and I believe that my
18 colleagues investigated the matter. And that's when I first heard of Ramo
20 Q. Did you know what type of investigation was launched by your
21 colleagues? Did they tell you?
22 A. I was not directly involved, and it was a long time ago, in 1992.
23 I really can't tell you with any degree of certainty about the
24 investigation. I only know what I've just told you, that there was an
25 investigation of some sort because Ramo Durmis had clashed with the
1 commanders with regard to the number of casualties in the Visoko theatre
2 of war or something like that.
3 Q. Other than -- other than that, do you know anything else about
4 Ramo Durmis, especially in 1993?
5 A. Let me put it this way: After that, his name was often mentioned
6 in our services because he was a member of one unit and then -- and then
7 he was not a member of any unit. He was often searched by our services.
8 Nobody knew where he was.
9 Q. Can you elaborate a little bit? In which unit was he a member,
11 A. I don't know. I don't even know whether he was an army member or
12 not. I wouldn't know.
13 Q. So only your colleagues had any investigations against Ramo
14 Durmis? You said he was a kind of known person or -- if I can just ask:
15 What are you referring to?
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the Defence.
17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness never said that many
18 persons -- many people knew of him. He just said that his name was often
19 mentioned in various searches and so on and so forth.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, this is exactly what the
21 witness has told us.
22 MR. NEUNER: It says here in the transcript, and I'm quoting from
23 page 66, line 2: "He" - meaning Ramo Durmis- "was often searched by our
24 services." Often.
25 Q. If I may just ask: He was often searched in relation to
1 investigations, in relation to particular incidents? Do you know
3 A. I don't know anything specific, and I don't wish to speculate.
4 I've heard of the name. The name does ring a bell. I know that he was
5 mentioned later on. I don't know what the context was. I don't know
6 whether he was a member of the army or not.
7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness has
8 already answered that question. This has been answered -- asked and
9 answered at least two or three times.
10 MR. NEUNER: I'll move on.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In any case, it is twenty to
12 6.00. I have to make a break. We have already worked for an hour and a
13 half. We shall now adjourn and we will resume around five past 6.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.
17 MR. NEUNER:
18 Q. After the release of Mr. Totic, investigative activities were
19 again possible. Did you engage again in investigative activities, or your
21 A. I was never given any specific orders with regard to that case.
22 I personally did not receive any tasks, and I don't know if anybody else
24 Q. So from the 18th of May, when Mr. Totic -- 1993, when Mr. Totic
25 was released, you weren't engaging in any investigative activities to find
1 the perpetrators of the abduction of Mr. Totic.
2 A. It was the 18th of April, not the 18th of May. I didn't say that
3 there were no investigations. I said that I was not involved in any
4 investigations. I mentioned the settlement of Raspotocje, and I was
5 engaged in the disarmament of this battalion that I mentioned earlier on.
6 Q. I was referring to the period after his release, which is, I
7 believe, 18th of May, 1993 onwards. And I was just asking whether you --
8 and I understood you didn't perform any further investigative activities,
9 isn't it? In relation to the Totic kidnapping.
10 A. I did not carry out any investigation. I don't know whether
11 anybody else from the military police did. They may have done that, but I
12 don't know whether they did or not.
13 Q. Did you ever file a criminal report relating to Totic kidnapping?
14 A. I said that an investigative judge was on the scene. A
15 prosecutor was also there. And they were in charge of the investigation.
16 We worked on their orders, on the order of the investigative judge, that
18 MR. NEUNER: If I could, with the assistance of the usher, have
19 the map my learned friend has used at the end of her examination-in-chief.
20 Q. Witness, I'm just asking you to point, if you know, to the
21 headquarter of Zivko Totic, where he was abducted on the 15th of April and
22 I think he was -- you have marked the point where he was abducted. If you
23 could just show where his headquarter is, please. Point to it.
24 A. I said that it was approximately here. I can't be more precise
25 than that. I know that the command of this brigade of the Jure Francetic
1 Brigade was in the administrative building of the Vatrostalna company in
3 Q. Could you just make a cross where this Vatrostalna company or
4 Totic's headquarters is.
5 A. I believe that it was here.
6 Q. Can you for the benefit of the Trial Chamber say how many
7 kilometres it is from this Vatrostalna enterprise premise to the 3rd
8 headquarters, how many kilometres?
9 A. The distance as the crow flies is not large. However, from the
10 command of the Jure Francetic to the other command, you have to go around
11 the ironworks. You could not cut through the ironworks directly. So it
12 could be some 10 kilometres or more.
13 Q. Thank you very much.
14 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence, you
16 have the floor.
17 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Saric, you said who you reported to with
19 regard to the interviews that you had with the captured persons from
20 Lasva. You said that you drafted an official record and that it went to
21 the security organ of the 3rd Corps. Do you know who the chief of the
22 security sector was in January 1993?
23 A. In January 1993, it could have been Tadija Brekalo or Avdic
24 Nasif. I don't know exactly.
25 Q. Since my learned friend mentioned Ramiz Dugalic, do you know when
1 he was appointed the chief of the security sector of the 3rd Corps?
2 A. I believe that it was somewhat later, in March, or even the
3 beginning of April.
4 Q. Thank you very much. My learned friend showed you P327, which is
5 the rules of the work of the military police. Could we look at the
6 document once again, the Rules of Service for the military police. Could
7 we look at paragraph 328 [as interpreted].
8 MR. NEUNER: Just for the record, this is P328, not P327.
9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 Thank you. It is 328.
11 Q. Could you please look at Article 50 under 7, "Crime prevention
12 service." In response to my learned friend's question, you said that the
13 joint work of the military police and the Security Services Centre was
14 always carried out when the crimes falling under the jurisdiction of the
15 district military court which are prosecuted ex officio are perpetrated by
16 other persons, civilians or foreigners who were treated as civilians. Is
17 that what you said in response to my learned friend's question?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Can you please read the first sentence of Article 50.
20 A. "If a person is suspected of committing an offence within the
21 jurisdiction of the military court which is prosecuted ex officio,
22 authorised members of the military police have the duty to undertake the
23 necessary measures to locate the perpetrator of the criminal offence, to
24 see that the offender or accomplice should not go into hiding or escape
25 and to uncover or protect the traces of a criminal act and any objects
1 which can be used as evidence and to assemble all information liable to be
2 useful for a successful trial."
3 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Saric: The first sentence that you have
4 just read out, doesn't it clearly show that you only acted when a crime
5 was committed that fell within the jurisdiction of the military court?
6 A. Yes. If you read only the last sentence, you may have a
7 different impression. However, if you read the entire context, you will
8 be clear on the contents of this article.
9 Q. You have also told us that after the kidnapping of
10 Mr. Zivko Totic you had a task to collect certain operative information.
11 Mr. Saric, this collection of operative information on the ground, did it
12 have to assume a certain form, or was it still an informal part of the
13 pre-criminal procedure?
14 A. Precisely so. This was an informal part of the pre-criminal
16 Q. In your capacity as the inspector of the criminal -- of the
17 military police, when you found yourself in a position to take a
18 statement, were you ever authorised to interview a person as a witness?
19 A. No.
20 Q. What was the nature of the statement given to the police, either
21 to the civilian police or the military police?
22 A. It could not be used as evidence in criminal proceedings.
23 Q. Could it ever be used in criminal proceedings or -- or shown to
24 the person who had given that statement?
25 A. I've already answered that. It did not have any value in
1 criminal procedure.
2 Q. When you took statements from certain persons who might
3 eventually become suspects during the formal part of your pre-criminal
4 procedure, did these persons have to tell the truth? Did you warn them
5 about their obligation to tell the truth?
6 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution wishes to formulate an objection.
7 The last question was leading.
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't see how it was leading,
9 but I can rephrase it.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, rephrase it, please.
11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Saric, how do you take statements for suspects? In our
13 law -- or under our law, are these persons obliged to tell the truth in
14 the informal or the formal part of the procedure?
15 A. No, during our part of the procedure, they were not obliged to do
16 that. They --
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's again leading. The
18 question is leading.
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, thank you very much. I
20 don't know how to put that question. I just wanted to --
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Try to be up to the point.
22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Saric, given the fact that witnesses are interviewed like you
24 are being interviewed today after having taken a statement, are you aware
25 of the fact that our Penal Code contained a similar provision on the
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 testimony of a suspect? Was a suspect ever obliged or warned to tell the
2 truth after taking an oath?
3 A. In our procedure, this was not an obligation.
4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't have any
5 further questions.
6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No additional questions,
7 Mr. President.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a few questions to put
9 to you.
10 Questioned by the Court:
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] First of all, it seems that
12 there is an error in the transcript. Could you please tell us, what is
13 your date of birth exactly? Because in the transcript, it says "1996". I
14 believe that this is a mistake. Could you please tell us your year of
16 A. My son was born in 1996. I was born in 1966.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Thank you for
18 this clarification.
19 In answering one question, you said that the military police of
20 the 3rd Corps was of the strength of 200 to 250 men. Is that a good
21 figure, or was that a mistake on your part?
22 A. At the beginning, the figure was anything between 200 and 250
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And how were they distributed,
25 these military policemen of the 3rd Corps? What was their distribution?
1 How were they spread?
2 A. As I've already told you, they were distributed across four
3 companies. There was also an anti-terrorist group, and the companies
4 numbered a similar number of men. And as our tasks and missions
5 increased, there was a need to increase the numbers of men. We became a
6 battalion, and when it became a battalion towards the end of the year,
7 according to my free estimates, it had about 400 men.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You yourself, you were a member
9 of what part? Of the Department for Services?
10 A. I was an inspector in the Department for Services of the
11 Battalion of the Military Police.
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For how long were you an
13 inspector and how many inspectors were there?
14 A. Between eight and ten.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said at the beginning
16 that -- of your testimony that before you became an inspector you worked
17 at an airport, and I believe that you were a member of the JNA. In order
18 to become a military policeman, you need a certain education. Were you
19 educated as a military policeman? What did you do at that airport that
20 you mentioned?
21 A. At the Zemunik airport, I was a technician for airplanes and
22 engines. I was a member of the Air Force. And when I joined -- and when
23 I joined the Territorial Defence Staff, there was a need for officers in
24 the military police unit and I and some other officers who had occupied
25 the various positions before that in the former JNA joined the military
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But how do you explain the fact
3 that a technician for engines could become a military policeman? Do you
4 have an explanation for that? How is -- how was that possible?
5 A. My explanation is the state of war. The few people who were
6 military policemen were not enough for the military battalion. There was
7 a much greater need. The battalion was replenished successively and the
8 organ of the security service drafted plans. There were seminars. There
9 were training courses. And that's how military policemen were trained,
10 and they could join the Military Police Battalion.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As an inspector, did you wear a
12 uniform of a military policeman? How were you dressed? Could you
13 describe your apparel. Did you have insignia? Did you have a badge? How
14 were you dressed?
15 A. Yes, I wore a uniform, and if the need arose, I would wear
16 civilian clothes. With permission of my superior commander, I was allowed
17 to wear civilian clothes when the need arose.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. So you could work in
19 civilian clothes, in plain clothes.
20 A. Yes, when it proved to be necessary and upon approval of the
21 superior command and especially the Centre of Military Security Services
22 via the battalion command. That is how the approval was handed down.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At your level of inspector,
24 were you aware of the existence of an individual who got hold of the
25 uniform of a military policeman and pretended to be a military policeman
1 but he wasn't one? Are you aware of such a phenomenon, of such cases?
2 A. I think that I said in my testimony that there were a large
3 number of people wearing different uniforms, and there were cases when
4 certain members would falsely pretend to be military policemen. There
5 were such cases.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as far as you know, were
7 there any -- was there any persecution or punishment of people who usurped
8 their positions and pretended to be something they were not?
9 A. I can't say exactly, but I think there were cases of false
10 presentations. And if they were found out, they were reported. Because
11 we had precise instructions from the corps command via the battalion
12 command that all persons should be treated in accordance with the law,
13 that there should be no exception from criminal prosecution.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll come to the
15 abduction of Totic. You told us that you took part, at least at the very
16 beginning, in the investigation. When your service learned that Totic was
17 abducted, what was Totic's status for your service? Was Totic treated as
18 a military man or as a civilian by you?
19 A. Zivko Totic was commander of a brigade. He was a soldier. The
20 Jure Francetic Brigade.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. So Totic was a military
22 man. And being a member of the military, who is the competent prosecutor?
23 The military or the civilian prosecutor? In your opinion.
24 A. I think the military prosecutor would be competent.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the military prosecutor.
1 And if Totic was kidnapped by civilians, who is competent? Is it
2 still the military prosecutor?
3 A. If they were civilians, then it would be the civilian prosecutor.
4 If the perpetrators were civilians ...
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But at the beginning,
6 nobody knew who abducted him. It could have been military people or
7 civilians, when you conducted your investigations.
8 A. Yes. That is why the duty judge from the district military court
9 went on site.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. When Mr. Totic was
11 freed and exchanged, where were you?
12 A. In May 1993 - I think the Prosecutor said that this was in May
13 1993 - I was in Zenica. I was engaged in other military policework within
14 my competence.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you were not present at
16 the "release" of Mr. Totic.
17 A. No. No, I was not present.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was there talk by people around
19 you about the way that he was released? Did you know who kidnapped him?
20 A. No, I didn't have any precise information about that. I can't
21 remember what exactly was going on. I just know that he was exchanged.
22 Now, who abducted him or kidnapped him, I really didn't know at that time.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the event that those who
24 released him were civilians, or liberated him, who would be competent to
25 continue the investigation?
1 A. If it was civilians, then it would be the Security Services
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] During your investigation, did
4 you learn that at the time of the kidnapping there was a civilian who was
5 killed? Did you know that or not? Apparently it was by accident that
6 this civilian was nearby where the shooting took place. Did you know that
7 or not?
8 A. As I was saying, I didn't go on site. I don't have precise
9 information. I know that the duty judge was there and he must have
10 established that on site, if that is what happened.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But, in fact, you can't help us
12 at all regarding the follow-up to this investigation about the kidnapping
13 and the killing of a civilian, so you have no information to provide?
14 A. I do not have any precise information. I was not in charge of
15 this. For four days I did collect information from the area. I didn't go
16 on site, and I can't give you any precise information.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A final question for you: A
18 moment ago the Prosecution showed you a plan and asked you to mark the
19 places that you visited. The village of Arnauti was mentioned. I didn't
20 quite grasp whether you went to Arnauti and why this name appeared. Could
21 you tell us. You yourself, did you go to Arnauti or not?
22 A. I did not go to Arnauti, but all the villages were mentioned. I
23 know a mixed commission was working simultaneously visiting military
24 facilities around Zenica, including the village of Arnauti, but I didn't
25 go there. I didn't mention it.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the joint commission, it
2 didn't ask for aid from you, from the Military Police Battalion of the 3rd
3 Corps? Did you assist them or not?
4 A. Yes, some members, as I have said, escorted the members of that
5 commission. They accompanied them.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you yourself, did you
7 accompany them? Did you contribute to this joint commission?
8 A. I did not. I had other assignments. My assignment was to
9 collect operative information from a particular area.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for the answers you
11 have given to the points I wished to clear up.
12 I shall give the floor once again to the Prosecution, if they
13 wish to take the floor after me, and then I shall give the floor to the
15 Mr. Neuner.
16 MR. NEUNER: Just one question.
17 Further cross-examination by Mr. Neuner:
18 Q. You said a moment ago - this is page 78, line 14 - that there was
19 a mixed commission who was visiting military facilities surrounding
20 Zenica, including Arnauti. Did the commission only visit military
21 facilities or other facilities too?
22 A. I believe that in the village of Arnauti there are no special
23 military facilities. As far as I know - I didn't go there, but I know
24 from stories - you yourself said that they went there, and all the
25 facilities were visited in which they thought that a kidnapped person may
1 possibly be held.
2 Q. All facilities were visited in which the person was -- or "may
3 possibly be held," you just said. Are we talking about elementary
4 schools, about public buildings, or are we talking also about private
5 buildings, or religious buildings?
6 A. I wasn't a member of that commission, nor did I accompany that
7 commission, so I don't know exactly what they toured or what information
8 they collected.
9 MR. NEUNER: Thank you. The Prosecution has no further
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence now.
12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't have a
13 question, but I wish to note that on page 79, line 15 the witness
14 said "colleague Mahir was there, as you yourself said." And the name was
15 not included in the transcript. The name is "Mahir." It's a witness we
16 heard here a few days ago.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for that
19 The other Defence team?
20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, captain, your
23 hearing is completed. Thank you for coming to The Hague at the request of
24 the Defence to testify. You have answered all the questions --
25 Mr. Neuner, for the documents?
1 MR. NEUNER: It's only about the map. Before the witness is
2 released, if I may ask the witness to sign the map and add today's date.
3 It's the 14th of March. Thank you very much.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I thought you had already
5 done that.
6 Put your name on the map and the date, the 14th of March, please.
7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll give the map to the
9 registrar now.
10 As I was saying, thank you for testifying. On behalf of the
11 Chamber, best wishes for your return journey. And I'm going to ask the
12 usher to be kind enough to accompany you out of the courtroom.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Regarding the documents, I
16 shall give the floor to the Defence. I don't think they have any
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We would
19 like the map marked by the witness to be admitted as a Defence exhibit.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Neuner.
21 MR. NEUNER: No objection.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we have a
24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. It is
25 admitted as Defence Exhibit DH2080.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now the
3 MR. NEUNER: We would like also to tender one map into evidence.
4 It's an excerpt I believe from P1. It's dealing with Zenica and its
5 surroundings, including Arnauti.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence?
7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections. Thank you.
8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team?
9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have no
10 objection, but for the record we would like to say that the witness marked
11 the village of Arnauti but he made it clear that he did not visit that
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's precisely why I asked
14 him the question, and he confirmed that he didn't go there.
15 Mr. Registrar, can you give us a number, please.
16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This
17 map is admitted as Prosecutor's Exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit P958.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 For the schedule for the rest of the week, the Defence, please.
20 Do you wish us to go into private session?
21 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Can we go into
22 private session.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Registrar, private
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 17383-17389 redacted. Private session.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of
11 March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.