Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17292

1 Monday, 14 March 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.14 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, will you please

6 call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Case

8 number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir

9 Kubura.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Can we have the appearances for

11 the Prosecution, please.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon,

13 Your Honours, Counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

14 Prosecution, Matthias Neuner and Daryl Mundis, assisted by our case

15 manager, Andres Vatter.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the appearances for the

17 Defence, please.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President.

19 Good afternoon, Your Honours. On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic,

20 Edina Residovic, counsel; Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel; and Alexis

21 Demirdjian, legal assistant.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence team.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

24 On behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin

25 Mulalic, legal assistant.

Page 17293

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] On today, the 14th of March, I

2 wish to bid good afternoon to all those present: The representatives of

3 the Prosecution, the counsel for the Defence, some of whom have been here

4 since 8.00 this morning, the two accused, as well as all the staff of this

5 courtroom within or outside it.

6 We need to continue our work today by the testimony of a witness,

7 but before that we need to deal with a question of the admission into

8 evidence of certain documents.

9 So I give the floor to the Defence, who is going to submit their

10 requests.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

12 The Defence would like to tender the documents shown to the

13 witness according to the list which we produced earlier on be admitted

14 into evidence: Documents under number -- in Chapter 1, "Events"; under

15 number 3, 3rd Corps military police, number 690-2, dated the 24th of

16 January, 1993. There is an English translation for this document, and we

17 should like to tender it into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

18 Also in the same chapter, document under tab 9, 3rd Corps

19 military police, confidential number 09-16, dated the 14th of February,

20 1993, official record which also has been provided with an English

21 translation, be admitted as a Defence exhibit.

22 Also, the document at tab 11 and the number is 0925, that it be

23 admitted into evidence as a Defence exhibit.

24 Document number 17, DH1351 ID, for which there is an English

25 translation we should like to tender into evidence.

Page 17294

1 Document at tab 19 that bore the number DH176 ID, should be

2 admitted as an exhibit.

3 From the second chapter of documents, headed "Mujahedin," we

4 would like to tender into evidence document number 1, DH778 ID, in view of

5 the fact that an English translation has been provided.

6 Also, a new document at tab 7, 3rd Corps command security sector,

7 number 03/100-112-4 dated the 10th of May, 1993, ERN number 04032452, and

8 it is a daily report for which an English translation has been provided,

9 is being tendered as an exhibit.

10 We should like to tender as an exhibit tab at number 24, also a

11 new document, command of the 3rd Corps, security sector, number

12 03/100-424-1 dated the 19th of November, 1993, "Information," in view of

13 the fact that there is an English translation.

14 Mr. President, I haven't checked whether some of the documents

15 were signed by the witness. If so, could they be treated as confidential

16 and admitted under seal. But I will check that out. As there aren't so

17 many documents, I'll be able to do that quickly.

18 Thank you very much.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, a document at tab

21 24, in the second chapter, is the only one signed by the witness.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have checked that that

23 document was indeed signed by the witness or not?

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, that's right.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So you've completed

Page 17295

1 all of your requests.

2 The Prosecution.

3 MR. MUNDIS: No objection, Mr. President.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 Mr. Registrar, please do your duty.

6 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. The

7 documents will be admitted as Defence exhibits under the following exhibit

8 numbers, and I'll switch to English.

9 [Previous translation continues] ... [In English] police,

10 internal number 690-2, dated 24th of January, 1993, is admitted into

11 evidence under the reference DH2076, with an English translation DH2076/E.

12 The document entitled "3rd Corps military police," confidential

13 number 09-16, dated 14th of February, 1993, is admitted into evidence

14 under the reference DH2077, with an English translation DH2077/E.

15 The document previously marked for identification 925 is now

16 admitted into evidence under the reference DH925, with an English

17 translation, DH925/E.

18 The document previously marked for identification 1351 is now

19 admitted into evidence under the reference DH1351, with an English

20 translation, DH1351/E.

21 The document previously marked for identification 176 is now

22 admitted into evidence under the reference DH176, with an English

23 translation, DH176/E.

24 The document previously marked for identification under the

25 reference 778 is now admitted into evidence under the reference DH778,

Page 17296

1 with an English translation, DH778/E.

2 The document entitled "3rd Corps command security sector,"

3 internal reference number 03/100-112-4, dated 10th of May, 1993, with an

4 ERN number 04032452, daily report, is admitted into evidence under the

5 reference DH2078, with an English translation, DH2078/E.

6 The document entitled "3rd Corps command security sector,"

7 internal reference number 03/100-424-1, dated the 19th of November, 1993

8 is now admitted into evidence under seal and confidential, under the

9 reference DH2079, with an English translation, DH2079/E.

10 [Interpretation] This finishes the list, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence has the floor.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, by checking the

13 documents as the registrar was reading the numbers, I have established

14 that the witness also signed document DH2078, so could it be given

15 confidential treatment as well, please.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, 2078.

17 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Document DH2078, dated the 10th

18 of May, 1993, has been admitted confidentially and under seal.

19 Thank you, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are there any questions to

21 address, or problems? No problems?

22 Yes, I see someone on his feet.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

24 had a document dated the 22nd of April, 1993, a public announcement by the

25 command of the 7th Muslim Brigade, and we should like to tender it.

Page 17297

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution.

2 MR. MUNDIS: No objection, Mr. President.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Registrar, a

4 number, please.

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This

6 document is admitted as a Defence exhibit, DK27, with an English version,

7 DK27/E.

8 Thank you, Mr. President.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We can bring in the new

10 witness.

11 How much time does the Defence plan to take with this witness?

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I assume an hour and 15 minutes,

13 Mr. President.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Let me check

17 that you are hearing the interpretation of my words in your own language.

18 If that is the case, please tell me so.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear and understand you.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you have been called as a

21 Defence witness by General Hadzihasanovic. Before asking you to read the

22 solemn declaration, will you please tell me your name, date, and place of

23 birth.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Semir Saric. I was born

25 on the 6th of December, 1996 [as interpreted] in Zenica.

Page 17298

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please tell us what

2 your current occupation is.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a professional soldier

4 currently.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what rank do you have and

6 your assignment?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My rank is that of captain, and I

8 am a staff officer near Sarajevo, in Butile [phoen] near Sarajevo.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993, what was your

10 position then? And if you were a soldier, what was your rank?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the 20th of April, 1992 I joined

12 the TO Staff of Zenica, and until the 2nd of May I was a member of that

13 staff, and then I was mobilised to a military police company of the

14 District Defence Staff of Zenica.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Captain, have you testified

16 before in an international or national court about the events that took

17 place in your country in 1992 and 1993, or is this the first time for you

18 to testify?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time for me to

20 testify about the events of 1992 and 1993.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Will you please, captain, read

22 the solemn declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may be seated.

Page 17299

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Captain, before giving the

5 floor to the lawyers, who will start with your examination, I shall give

6 you some information as to the way in which we will proceed.

7 As you know, you're a Defence witness, and for about an hour and

8 a quarter you will be expected to answer questions put to you by the

9 attorneys of General Hadzihasanovic, attorneys that you certainly met

10 before this hearing.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Upon the completion of that

12 stage, the Prosecution, seated to your right, will also be asking you

13 questions over a similar period of time, and this is known as the

14 cross-examination.

15 Upon the completion of that stage, the lawyers who questioned you

16 first may have some additional questions for you, which will be linked to

17 the questions put by the Prosecution.

18 The three Judges sitting in front of you may also ask you

19 something at any time; however, the Judges prefer to wait until all the

20 questions have been put to you by the two parties before intervening,

21 because often the questions that they may wish to ask may be put by either

22 party, in which case the Judges will not have any questions for you. But

23 sometimes the Judges need some additional clarification of your answers or

24 they may find that there is a vacuum in something that you have said and

25 then in the interest of justice the Judges may be prompted to ask you to

Page 17300

1 fill in those gaps.

2 You will see that the questions coming from each party may

3 differ. The questions that will be put to you by the Defence need to be

4 neutral, which will require from you quite extensive answers. On the

5 other hand, the questions put to you by the Prosecution may be leading and

6 can be answered with a yes or no.

7 During the period of your testimony, the parties may produce

8 documents and show them to you, and it's quite possible that documents of

9 a military nature, as you were a military man, may be shown to you. The

10 witness will then identify them and comment on those documents.

11 I need also to draw your attention to two important points, the

12 first being common knowledge: Since you have pledged to tell the whole

13 truth, all false testimony is excluded, because, as you know, false

14 testimony is an offence; a second point, which is more technical and

15 rather complicated, is that a witness may refuse to answer the question if

16 he believes that that answer may one day be used against him and

17 incriminate him. In such a very exceptional case, which we have so far

18 never come across, the Chamber may compel the witness to answer. But when

19 he does so, upon the invitation of the Chamber, the Chamber guarantees him

20 immunity from prosecution.

21 As this is a basically oral procedure, as we have absolutely no

22 information about you except a few brief lines of a summary, hence the

23 importance of what you are going to say. As you see a screen in front of

24 you, the words appearing in English will be translations of what is being

25 said in the courtroom, and that will be the record of your testimony.

Page 17301












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Page 17302

1 Should you fail to answer a question -- to understand a question, please

2 ask the person putting it to you to rephrase it. Sometimes the questions

3 may be very complex and the witness may have difficulty in answering, and

4 the answers are principally intended for the Judges, who have to grasp why

5 it is you have been called and what exactly you have said in answering

6 questions; hence the importance of those answers.

7 Try to be as clear as possible in your answers because, as you

8 know and as I have just said, answers have to be clear to equally clear

9 questions.

10 Should you have any kind of difficulty, please let us know

11 because we are here to assist.

12 I wish to inform you also that every one and a half hours we have

13 technical breaks, which will give you an opportunity to take a rest,

14 because it can be quite tiring to answer questions continuously, but also

15 it will help the technicians to change the tapes, as everything is being

16 recorded.

17 So we will have two breaks in all, of 20 to 25 minutes each,

18 until the end of the day. But according to the schedule, by this evening

19 you should be able to return home.

20 That is all the information that I wish to give you.

21 Without wasting any more time, I shall give the floor to the

22 Defence, who will give you some additional advice and who will begin their

23 examination-in-chief.

24 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25 Examined by Ms. Residovic:

Page 17303

1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Saric.

2 A. Good afternoon.

3 Q. In addition to the information provided to you by the President

4 of the Chamber, I would like to give you one more piece of information:

5 The two of us speak the same language, and as soon as you hear my

6 question, you will be in a position to answer immediately; however, both

7 my question and yours also have to be translated so as to enable the

8 Judges and our colleagues in the courtroom to follow what you are saying.

9 That's why I should like to ask you to make a short pause before you start

10 answering my question. Did you ever that?

11 A. Yes, I did.

12 Q. Did you understand that?

13 A. Yes, I did.

14 Q. Mr. Saric, what did you do before the war, before the 6th of

15 April, 1992, and where were you employed?

16 A. Before the war, I was an officer. I worked in Zadar at the

17 Zemunik airport near Zadar, in the former JNA.

18 Q. Did there come a time when you abandoned the JNA?

19 A. Yes, I abandoned the JNA on the 14th of July, 1991.

20 Q. You have told us that in 1993 you were a member of the Military

21 Police Company in the District Defence Staff of Zenica. Up to what time

22 did you remain a member of that company and after that did you assume some

23 other duty or did you take a position?

24 A. I was a member of the Military Police Company from the 2nd of

25 May, 1992 throughout the existence of that company, which was the 1st

Page 17304

1 December 1992, when the police battalion -- the Military Police Battalion

2 was established, and then I became an inspector in the service of that

3 Military Police Battalion.

4 Q. How long did you remain in that position, in the Military Police

5 Battalion?

6 A. I remained in that position until March or April, 1994.

7 Q. When you said "the Military Police Battalion," did you imply the

8 Military Police Battalion of the 3rd Corps?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who was your immediate superior officer in the battalion?

11 A. In the Military Police Battalion, my immediate superior officer

12 at first was Mr. Bakir Alispahic and then Mr. Ismet Skopljak and the

13 commander of the Military Police Battalion was Mujezinovic.

14 Q. Mr. Saric, what served to regulate the work of the military

15 police in the year 1993, when you were a member of the Military Police

16 Battalion?

17 A. The scope of the work of the military police, including the

18 battalion of the military police, were regulated by the -- by the orders

19 for the work of the armed forces, of the work of the security services,

20 the Criminal Code, and the instructions of the superior command.

21 Q. Can you briefly describe for the Trial Chamber some of the tasks

22 that the military police performed during that period of time.

23 A. The military police had to secure most important facilities

24 within the system of command and control. They had to provide security

25 for military personnel, military documents. They had to regulate traffic.

Page 17305

1 They had to escort convoys of military vehicles. They also had tasks

2 within the crime prevention, such as prevention of different types of

3 crime among the members of military, scouring the ground, protection of

4 communications centres and so on and so forth.

5 Q. You've told us that your task was to intercept and prevent

6 certain criminal activities among the members of the BiH army. Tell me,

7 please, whether the military police was also in charge of some other

8 people who were not members of the army, and if that was the case, when

9 was that the case?

10 A. Are you implying civilians?

11 Q. Yes.

12 A. Yes, the military police did have certain authorities over the

13 civilian personnel but only in case such civilians would perform crimes

14 that fell under the authority of the military courts or when the -- the

15 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina appeared as the aggrieved party of a

16 certain crime committed by civilians.

17 Q. Mr. Saric, could you give us an example of such crimes for which

18 you had certain authority because they fell under the scope of the

19 military district court.

20 A. Yes. Those crimes are regulated by the criminal procedure code

21 that was adopted as the law of Bosnia and Herzegovina and those crimes

22 were crimes against the social order and against armed forces. So when we

23 are talking about the first type of crimes, we are talking about

24 sabotages, serving in the enemy army, and armed rebellion; and the latter

25 crimes, that fall under the category of crimes against the armed forces.

Page 17306

1 They were regulated by the law of the former Yugoslavia, which was adopted

2 as a law of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and among them are

3 attack against officers and soldiers of the army. There were some 20 of

4 such crimes which fell under that category of crimes.

5 Q. Mr. Saric, when, during what stage of having received information

6 that there might be suspicion of such a crime, at what stage would the

7 military police take charge?

8 A. If we learned that a crime was committed that fell under the

9 authority of the military court, the military police acted immediately,

10 urgently, in keeping with the procedure. However, every such crime of

11 which we learnt and of which we had information, we had to inform the

12 investigative judge of the military court, who would then estimate whether

13 there was any need for him to go to the spot and investigate. If there

14 was no such need, then he would inform the military police. If the judge

15 estimated that the crime was of such nature that it required his presence,

16 in that case the judge would be in charge of the investigation and

17 everything would be done as per his orders, on the spot of the crime, at

18 the scene.

19 Q. When you learnt that a crime had been committed, did the military

20 police act independently or did they act in cooperation with other organs?

21 A. If a crime was committed by a member of the army which was

22 prosecuted ex officio, then the military police could act independently,

23 providing they had informed the investigative judge. However, if the

24 civilians were also involved together with the members of the military or

25 if it was only the civilians that committed a crime, then we had to

Page 17307

1 cooperate with members of the Ministry of the Interior.

2 Q. In answering my previous question, you said that when the

3 investigative judge or the judge on duty went to the scene, then he was in

4 charge in -- of the investigation and he would issue orders as to what the

5 other participants in the investigations were -- investigation were to do.

6 What would happen if the prosecutor received a report on a crime that was

7 committed? Who was in charge of the pre-criminal procedure?

8 A. According to the law that I've already mentioned, the prosecutor

9 was the one in charge of the pre-criminal procedure, and he could request

10 from the members of the military police to collect the necessary

11 information in keeping with the law so as to enable him to prosecute the

12 perpetrator of such crimes.

13 Q. You've told us that you worked in one part of the Military Police

14 Battalion. Tell me, what did that part of the battalion specially engage

15 in? That was the service of the military police, as you called it. What

16 did this segment of the battalion do?

17 A. Yes, that was the part called the Department for the Services of

18 the Military Police. The military police performs their duties by

19 applying their rules. There are seven parts of the military police, and

20 in this particular part we collected information, we analysed information,

21 and we forwarded that information towards the battalion command and the

22 corps command.

23 Q. In addition to you working in that part of the battalion, could

24 you just briefly tell us how the battalion of the military police was

25 organised in the 3rd Corps.

Page 17308

1 A. As far as I can comment upon that, the Military Police Battalion

2 had four companies. It had the Department for Services that we have

3 mentioned; and it had the anti-terrorist unit.

4 Q. Can you please briefly tell us: What was the scope of the work

5 of the companies of the battalion?

6 A. The 1st Company was tasked with performing classical police

7 duties, such as patrols, escorting, the search. The 2nd Company was

8 tasked with providing security. They provided security for command, for

9 institutions, for military documents. And the 3rd Company was to take

10 part in combat activities. And when it didn't participate in combat, it

11 was used for military police work. And then there was the traffic-control

12 company, which was used in traffic, to control traffic, to escort convoys.

13 So its specialty was linked with traffic. The anti-terrorist unit was

14 engaged in controlling military discipline, in scouring the ground, in

15 protecting high military officers who arrived in Zenica. They also

16 provided anti-terrorist protection for various facilities. And there was

17 also the Department for Services. We had the Service for Crime

18 Prevention, where we had inspectors who worked in that service. We also

19 had the escort service, and so on and so forth. We had seven services,

20 and these seven services are how we were organised.

21 Q. Since you were a member of the service that was in charge of

22 investigation, tell me, please how your service was organised and how many

23 members of staff it had.

24 A. I've already said that we had a duty service which consisted of

25 six people and it worked around the clock. We received reports, and we

Page 17309

1 controlled all the other activities. There were between eight and ten

2 crime-prevention inspectors. There were four lawyers, who were in charge

3 of the professional side of the work. They were in charge of filing

4 criminal reports. There were two crime technicians. And I believe that

5 there were six to eight policemen. So all together there were 22 or 23

6 members of this service. Their numbers varied.

7 Q. Mr. Saric, can you briefly tell us about the chain of command and

8 how it was organised in the military police company of the 3rd Corps. Who

9 were your immediate superiors and who was in charge of the battalion?

10 Who was its commander?

11 A. My immediate superior was Ismet Skopljak; the battalion commander

12 was Mujezinovic, and the unit was linked to the corps command through the

13 sector of the security services of the corps command.

14 Q. Since you worked in crime prevention involving members of the

15 army, tell me, please: What authorities did the military police have when

16 it came to the prevention of crime among members of the BiH army?

17 A. The authorities of the military police were regulated by the

18 rules of work. There were 14 of them. The first one is identification,

19 bringing in, the use of various means, such as means of restriction. And

20 on top of all that is filing criminal reports. Criminal reports were

21 filed to the prosecutor against perpetrators of crime.

22 Q. Did you have any authority to file criminal reports for other

23 acts committed by members of the army and not only for crimes?

24 A. Yes. If we did not have any other suspicions, you could also

25 file a disciplinary report against an army member who committed a breach

Page 17310

1 of discipline in his place of work.

2 Q. Mr. Saric, did the Military Police Battalion of the 3rd Corps

3 exist as the only unit of the military police in the entire corps, or were

4 military police units organised elsewhere, in other areas?

5 A. The Military Police Battalion was not the only military police

6 unit in the corps. The brigades also had military police units at their

7 respective levels.

8 Q. Can you please tell me what was the size of the military police

9 units in the brigades.

10 A. I believe that in the brigades that existed in the town of Zenica

11 there were military police units. I know that there were. The mountain

12 brigades had platoons and motorised brigades had military police

13 companies.

14 Q. Mr. Saric, in the Military Police Battalion of the 3rd Corps,

15 were you superior to the companies and platoons of the military police in

16 the brigades or OGs?

17 A. No. It was the officer of that unit who was in command of the

18 military police unit. For example, in the brigades that had their

19 military police units, the commander was the commander of that brigade who

20 was in charge of that unit through his security organ.

21 Q. Did you have any authorities whatsoever over those military

22 police units which did not necessarily have to be the authority of

23 command, of being superior to them?

24 A. We couldn't issue them orders; however, based on our plans and

25 problems of training and education that was drafted by security service

Page 17311












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Page 17312

1 sector of the 3rd Corps, we participated in the education of the military

2 police units at lower levels and to a certain extent we provided them with

3 the equipment as much as we could, as much as we could spare.

4 Q. Mr. Saric, if you learnt that a crime was committed in a certain

5 area, which unit of the military police would be responsible and which one

6 would react and perform their duties in respect of such a crime?

7 A. Usually a report about a crime would be received in the duty

8 service of the military police of the 3rd Corps and the Military Police

9 Battalion would inform the investigating judge about this, who would then

10 form a team, as I have already mentioned. So the military police of the

11 3rd Corps had to carry out on-site investigation, collect traces, secure

12 the site, et cetera.

13 Q. Should an event take place in the territory of an operations

14 group or a brigade, who would be responsible for undertaking the steps you

15 have just mentioned?

16 A. As far as I can recollect, sometime in June the Bosanska Krajina

17 Operations Group formed its own military police company that was active in

18 the area in order to prevent crime in accordance with the authority of the

19 military police.

20 Q. Was there ever an instance that a military police battalion

21 extended aid, direct aid, to platoons or companies in their area if they

22 themselves were unable to carry out their assignment?

23 A. Yes. This was regulated by resubordination of a part of the

24 Military Police Battalion to the military police units of those brigades.

25 I can -- know that I was in the area of responsibility of the 325th

Page 17313

1 Brigade and I was resubordinated to the command of that brigade and asked

2 to assist the military police unit in that area. I was also in the

3 village of Donji Merdani in the area of responsibility of the 333rd

4 Brigade and for a brief period also in Zepce municipality, and I know that

5 my colleagues were also part of military police forces and took part in

6 the protection of certain facilities together with the military police

7 units on whose territories those objects were. Specifically I have in

8 mind the Kraljeva Sutjeska monastery in Kakanj and Guca Gora monastery in

9 Guca Gora.

10 Q. How would you go there? Was this on the basis of a decision

11 within your own competencies, or did you have to receive an order of a

12 superior command?

13 A. I think I already said that it was by order that we would be

14 resubordinated to another unit.

15 Q. Tell me, Mr. Saric: In view of the fact that quite a lot of

16 evidence has been produced in this courtroom about, among other things,

17 the existence of the civilian police, tell us what was your relationship

18 with the civilian police. Were you superior to them or subordinated to

19 them? What was the relationship between you?

20 A. The Military Police Battalion was not superior to the civilian

21 police but there was a relationship between us and on two grounds: First,

22 if a civilian commits a crime which is within the terms of a reference of

23 the military court or is a co-perpetrator with a soldier, it was our duty

24 to cooperate directly with members of the Ministry of the Interior; and

25 the second grounds was that members of the MUP, or the Security Services

Page 17314

1 Centre, and the Public Security Station in Zenica, were technically better

2 equipped and better staffed than the Military Police Battalion, so we

3 cooperated on those grounds as well. In carrying out certain activities,

4 we provided technical and professional assistance.

5 Q. Tell me now, Mr. Saric: What was the status and resources

6 available to your battalion, in terms of personnel and the ethnic

7 composition of the members of your battalion?

8 A. As far as the personnel is concerned, I can say that there were

9 few among us who had the specialty of military policing, but in addition

10 to our regular assignments, we devoted a lot of attention to training as

11 well. As for equipment, particularly equipment for crime investigation,

12 sometime in June 1993 -- until that period, we only had a single camera.

13 I think it was a Praktika model. And when you asked me about the ethnic

14 composition, I can say that members from the Military Police Battalion

15 came from all three nations living in the area of Zenica, of course in

16 proportion to the population numbers. The largest numbers were Muslims,

17 and Serbs and Croats had equal numbers approximately.

18 Q. Mr. Saric, when carrying out your duties, did you encounter any

19 difficulties? And if so, could you tell us briefly which those

20 difficulties were that you had to deal with, in addition to the fact that

21 you had personnel with insufficient training and lacked the equipment that

22 you needed for your work.

23 A. Yes. We did encounter many problems. First of all, there was a

24 shortage of resources. We also lacked fuel, which we needed to carry out

25 on-site investigations. Another problem was the influx of large numbers

Page 17315

1 of people coming from various parts of Bosnia and Herzegovina. By way of

2 example, Zenica, which had about 100.000 inhabitants, I think that there

3 were about 50.000 refugees in addition to the population. Among these

4 refugees were men in uniform without insignia and bearing long barrels,

5 and it was very difficult to keep all this under control.

6 Also, members frequently switched from one unit to another, so

7 that in spite of all our efforts, it was difficult to carry out military

8 policing in territory under the control of the HVO.

9 These were just some of the problems that we encountered in

10 carrying out our regular duties.

11 Q. In view of the fact that you engaged in the detection of crimes

12 and their perpetrators, tell me, what was the 3rd Corps policies and the

13 policies of its commander with respect to the way in which perpetrators

14 should be prosecuted and law and order respected within the Army of Bosnia

15 and Herzegovina?

16 A. As far as I know, on the basis of orders that we received from

17 the battalion command and which came from the corps command, there were

18 strict orders that all perpetrators of criminal offences, regardless of

19 religion or ethnicity or political views, should be treated in an equal

20 manner, and that means lawfully.

21 Q. Could you tell me how members of the army were sanctioned, for

22 what kind of acts and what kind of punishment.

23 A. Members of the army could be held criminally responsible before

24 the district military court. Disciplinary measures could be taken by the

25 superior command or by the military disciplinary court that was formed at

Page 17316

1 the level of the corps command and in certain specific cases, they could

2 also be held responsible by the misdemeanour courts.

3 Q. In view of all these possibilities for the liability of members

4 of the army and also the problems you encountered in your work, tell me,

5 could you describe this process from the moment you learnt that a crime

6 had been committed to the time when you file a criminal report. Was the

7 procedure identical in all cases, or were situations different?

8 A. Of course the situations differed from one case to another. The

9 duty service may receive a report, and the situation is quite clear on the

10 spot. When the perpetrator is caught on site and when the evidence has

11 been preserved, then we can undertake all the other measures, taking the

12 perpetrator into custody, and reporting to the district military

13 prosecutor in this case. However, certain criminal offences were

14 committed by unknown perpetrators. In that case, when the perpetrator was

15 unknown or his identity was unknown, we would secure the traces that we

16 would find on site, collect other information, analyse that information,

17 and then on the basis of analytical assessments regarding the time, the

18 place, the method used, we would make assessments and plans and a certain

19 number of members on the basis of those plans were found, taken into

20 custody, and prosecuted.

21 Q. Mr. Saric, in 1993 did you take part in one such instance of

22 monitoring a certain criminal tendency and finally discovering the

23 perpetrators of those crimes?

24 A. Yes. During 1993, there was -- there were frequent instances of

25 crimes being committed by various members. And I will focus on a case

Page 17317

1 that I was directly involved in, and that is the case of the 3rd Battalion

2 of the 314th Brigade, the so-called Green League. The military security

3 sector of the corps command collected data on the ground and also data we

4 had and those provided by other security organs, especially of the 314th

5 Brigade, and when sufficient information had been collected, sufficient

6 evidence, members of the battalion of the 314th Brigade on the basis of a

7 plan drafted by the corps command, these members were taken into custody,

8 interrogated, handed over to the court with a criminal report and

9 attachments, so all that we had collected over a period of six months.

10 Q. In addition to the cases when you were able to immediately find

11 the perpetrator and these other cases, when it took you a lot of time to

12 discover the perpetrator, tell me, were you able to discover all the

13 crimes and their perpetrators over that period of time?

14 A. I think - and this may be my own subjective opinion - that in

15 view of the conditions under which we were working, we had a relatively

16 high percentage of success in detecting perpetrators. But in answer to

17 your question, we did not manage to discover all the perpetrators of

18 criminal offences. And I think that that was not possible anyway.

19 Q. Mr. Saric, I would now like to ask you: In view of the military

20 police work that you described a moment ago and the tasks you had, were

21 you personally ever engaged in certain policework in an area which had

22 previously been the scene of combat activity?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Could you please tell us when this was and could you describe it.

25 A. This was at the end of January 1993 when, with a military police

Page 17318

1 patrol, I was sent to the Lasva village area to take over prisoners of war

2 and to escort them to the KP Dom in Zenica, the prison in Zenica.

3 Q. Did you do that? Or, rather, could you describe what exactly you

4 did that evening.

5 A. Yes, it was evening. It was dark. It was wintertime. And when

6 we reached the village of Lasva, in front of the school in Lasva we found

7 a large number of civilians and members of the army. And the situation,

8 to say the least, was unpleasant.

9 From the people who were on the spot, we learnt that in combat

10 there had been dead and injured on both sides.

11 Q. With what force did you come to take over those prisoners? And

12 did you transport them from Lasva to the reception centre in Zenica?

13 A. We reached Lasva in two vehicles, motor vehicles. One was a

14 passenger vehicle; I think it was a Golf A2. And one was a bus -- the

15 other was a bus. The bus had on it 10 to 15 military policemen who had

16 been assigned to this task.

17 Q. You said a moment ago that the situation was unpleasant. Were

18 you immediately given those prisoners, or did you have to undertake some

19 measures to deal with this rather confusing situation in front of the

20 school where there were both civilians and soldiers?

21 A. From the crowd, one could hear various cries addressed to us and

22 comments referring to casualties on the army side. So we had to contact

23 with authority, to calm the situation down, and to escort the prisoners to

24 the bus to board them on the bus and to be able to drive them away.

25 Q. How many prisoners were they, and in what condition were they?

Page 17319

1 A. I think there were about 20 prisoners of war, and all of them

2 except one were in good physical condition. They didn't have any visible

3 injuries.

4 Q. And what about this one?

5 A. I was told by a military policeman that a prisoner was

6 complaining of pain and having difficulty in walking. I went up to him

7 and saw that he was bent over, that he couldn't walk, and I told the

8 military policeman to escort him to the passenger car, which he did. So I

9 got into that car with him; whereas, the rest of the prisoners boarded the

10 bus and were escorted to the KP Dom in Zenica.

11 Q. Given the fact that you yourself saw him having difficulty

12 walking, did you inquire as to why that was the case? Did you learn why

13 he was in such a state?

14 A. Yes, I did inquire. In the car on the way back from Lasva to

15 Zenica - which took about 15 minutes - I asked him on two occasions what

16 had happened to him. He was not willing to talk. He just told me -- told

17 me that he participated in combat, that he had been injured, but I could

18 not really understand from his answers what had happened to him and I did

19 not really insist.

20 Q. Since you were in charge of that particular patrol, can you tell

21 me where you took the prisoners once you took them over.

22 A. We took the prisoners to the KP Dom in Zenica, to the prison

23 there.

24 Q. Did you have any information before you arrived that there had

25 been dead people on both sides?

Page 17320

1 A. No. I learnt about that once I arrived in Lasva. It was then

2 that I learned from the present villagers and soldiers that there had been

3 dead and that the Commander Camdzic and the Commander Rajic were also

4 killed.

5 Q. In relation to these prisoners that you took over and transferred

6 to the reception centre for the prisoners of war, did you personally have

7 any other obligations on that evening or on any of the following days?

8 A. On that evening, we did not have any other duties or obligations.

9 On the following day, I learnt from my colleagues who were on duty that

10 the information came from the mortuary of the hospital in Zenica that a

11 few bodies had been taken to them from the theatre of war and that they

12 were there. And we informed of that to the investigative judge of the

13 military district court.

14 Q. Did you personally go to the mortuary together with the

15 investigative judge? Do you know who were the judges on duty?

16 A. No, I didn't go there personally. As far as I can remember,

17 nobody from the Military Police Battalion went to the mortuary, to the

18 morgue. When I said that we informed the duty judge, I believe that after

19 that the Security Services Centre asked us to help them with the

20 investigation, and I believe that Judge Mirsad Strika established the

21 investigation team, consisting of members of the Security Services Centre

22 and crime technicians of the Security Services Centre of Zenica. So we

23 were not involved.

24 Q. Did you, as a member of the military police, or your colleagues

25 receive any orders or tasks in relation to that investigation?

Page 17321












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Page 17322

1 A. As far as the investigation is concerned, we received a task from

2 our commander to interrogate all of the prisoners about their

3 participation in combat and the way they were captured.

4 Q. Did you personally speak to any of them?

5 A. Yes. There were three or four more inspectors who were given the

6 same task. On the following day, I spoke to three prisoners of war.

7 Q. Where was it that you carried out your interviews and who were

8 the persons that you personally interviewed, from whom you took

9 statements?

10 A. We performed those interviews in the former JNA centre. This was

11 the place where the Military Police Battalion was billeted at the time.

12 And I spoke to Viktor Rajic, Dragan Rados, and the person whose last name

13 was Kristo, whose first name I can't remember, but I remember him telling

14 me that he worked in the national theatre of Zenica.

15 Q. Were all of them among those whom you had brought from Lasva to

16 the KP Dom the previous evening?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How did you conduct your interviews with these persons? Did

19 either you or any of your colleagues use any inhumane gesture, threat, or

20 anything like that during the interviews that you conducted?

21 A. No. To the contrary. The interviews were conducted in a very

22 relaxed atmosphere, I dare say.

23 Q. Were you interested in the deaths of the persons who got killed

24 on both sides and especially the persons who had been brought to the

25 morgue of the hospital in Zenica?

Page 17323

1 A. Yes, we were interested in that.

2 Q. Did you receive any information as to what had happened?

3 A. While conducting those interviews with the person that I spoke

4 to, they expressed a certain degree of regret that all this had happened

5 at that moment, they wanted to mitigate their role in the events. They

6 were saying that all this should not have happened, that we had lived in

7 peace until then, and so on and so forth. As for the deaths, none of the

8 persons that I spoke to told me that anybody was killed outside combat.

9 According to the information that I received at that moment, all the

10 persons who were killed in Dusina were killed during combat.

11 Q. You said that there were three or four inspectors who

12 participated in the interrogation of these persons. Did your colleagues

13 tell you anything about possibly having received different information,

14 different from the information that you received during your interviews?

15 A. No. All the information that we received was similar to the

16 information that I received from my interviews. I can illustrate this by

17 giving you an example: Viktor Rajic, with whom I spoke, told me he was

18 the brother of the dead Zvonko Rajic. In addition to him being sad over

19 the -- his brother's death, I asked him how his brother had died. He told

20 me that it was during combat, and that was all.

21 As I have already told you, they expressed regret, and Viktor

22 Rajic asked me at some -- one point whether I could help him and whether I

23 could check whether he would have any problems returning to his workplace

24 in the Zenica ironworks, in view of the fact that he had participated in

25 this particular combat.

Page 17324

1 Q. What did you do with the information that you obtained during the

2 interviews with these three people: Rajic, Kristo, and Rados?

3 A. I made the official record of these interviews, and I sent that

4 record to the Security Services Centre of the 3rd Corps, and I believe

5 that the information was also sent to the court because an investigating

6 judge was involved in the investigation of that event.

7 Q. Mr. Saric, did you learn later on how Zvonko Rajic, the brother

8 of Viktor Rajic, had died?

9 A. As an ordinary citizen, an ordinary observer, I have learned from

10 the media recently that before this Tribunal Mrs. Rajic, the wife of the

11 late Rajic, has testified and that she has stated that it was Serif

12 Patkovic who had killed her husband. I also learned from the same sources

13 that Serif Patkovic also testified before this Tribunal and that he denied

14 that.

15 Also, somebody called Hakanovic has appeared before the cantonal

16 court in Zenica with regard to the events in Lasva. And as far as I know,

17 from the media again, Mrs. Rajic testified before that court as well, and

18 she stated before that court that her husband had not been killed by Serif

19 Patkovic. So until this day, as a policeman, as an ordinary citizen, I

20 have not been provided with the true information as to what had happened

21 at that time.

22 Q. Did you know Serif Patkovic? Did you see him on that night when

23 you took over those prisoners?

24 A. At that moment, I didn't know Serif Patkovic and I didn't see him

25 on that night. Later on I learnt who he was, and I even met him. I know

Page 17325

1 that he was the battalion commander and later on the commander of the 7th

2 Muslim Brigade.

3 Q. I would like to move on to another incident, Mr. Saric. Do you

4 know anything about the kidnapping of Zivko Totic?

5 A. As for the kidnapping of Zivko Totic, like any other member of my

6 service, I received information through the duty service. It was reported

7 to the duty service of the battalion that the escorts of Zivko Totic had

8 been killed and that he himself had been kidnapped. I personally found

9 this information shocking. My colleagues did as well, because we knew

10 these members of the HVO. They were all from Zenica. So we tried

11 to find out who these people were, as ordinary citizens, and we also acted

12 on the report and we informed the investigative judge of the military

13 court, who acted in accordance with his authorities.

14 Q. Did members of the Military Police Battalion or you yourself

15 participate in the investigation or in any activities which might have led

16 to the information as to who had committed this kidnapping?

17 A. As far as I know, once the duty judge was informed, he set up the

18 investigation team, which consisted of members of the Security Services

19 Centre, and I also believe that members from the HVO police of Vitez and

20 Zenica were there and also the Public Security Station members were there.

21 And on behalf of the Military Police Battalion, my colleagues, Karameli

22 [phoen] and Dragan Rankovic were there, to the scene of the crime.

23 Q. You have just told us that there was an on-site inspection.

24 First of all, tell me where this happened. In which area of Zenica?

25 A. This happened on the local road from Zenica to Pobrijezje

Page 17326

1 village.

2 Q. You have also told us that members of the HVO from the territory

3 that was under the control of the HVO were there. Did you, as a member of

4 the Military Police Battalion of the 3rd Corps, have the authority to

5 investigate crimes that were committed in the territory under the control

6 of the HVO?

7 A. No. Once we made an attempt at such an investigation, that was

8 supposed to take place towards the end of December or beginning of

9 January, 1993. I cooperated with members of the Security Services Centre

10 and we were supposed to investigate a murder in Krusctica, which is one

11 part of the Vitez municipality which was under the control of the HVO. We

12 were not able to do that. We were escorted by the HVO police to the place

13 called Vjetrenice, which was under the control of the BH army. From then

14 on, we could not carry out any investigations or any other policing

15 activities in the areas under the control of the HVO.

16 Q. Let's go back to the kidnapping of Zivko Totic. Did the military

17 policemen in the battalion receive certain tasks or orders that would lead

18 to the answer to the question as to who committed this crime?

19 A. All the available men in the Military Police Battalion were

20 engaged in the activities geared towards finding Mr. Totic. Some of the

21 members were engaged in escorting joint commissions that were set up in

22 order to inspect the villages around Zenica and the other members were

23 engaged in collecting information on the ground that might have led to the

24 reliable information as to who might have committed this crime.

25 Q. You have just told us that these members of the HVO were your

Page 17327

1 acquaintances or colleagues, because you hailed from the same town. What

2 was the relationship between the members of the Military Police Battalion

3 and members of the HVO and the Croatian citizens of Zenica?

4 A. We tried to have correct relationships with members of the Zenica

5 HVO, despite certain provocations and humiliations that we experienced at

6 their hands in Travnik and Zenica. We tried to build our relationship as

7 best as we could, and even when conflicts broke out between the HVO and

8 the BiH army, we tried to carry out the disarmament in the most humane way

9 possible.

10 Q. Can you please explain that, Mr. Saric.

11 A. Yes, certainly. A unit of the HVO that existed in Raspotocje,

12 Zenica municipality, and which had been formed a short while before the

13 conflict - I think it was the 1st Manoeuvring Company under the command of

14 an acquaintance of mine and a colleague from work, from Zadar, Juric

15 Jadranko - was stationed there, and I happened to be in the area during

16 those conflicts. I received information that Juric wanted me to surrender

17 to the Military Police Battalion and that he wanted guarantees. In

18 consultation with the corps command, we were able to guarantee the

19 requests Juric made, so he wanted to surrender. He wanted to surrender

20 his weapons and he wanted guarantees for his security and for the civilian

21 population in the area and that the soldiers of the HVO from that

22 battalion should not be taken to the KP Dom in Zenica.

23 In the local community premises, there were representatives of

24 the local community representing both the Bosniaks and the Croats. And I

25 think that on behalf of the Croats a man called Zvonko Akrepovic was

Page 17328

1 present. The weapons were handed over, and all members of that -- of that

2 company were allowed to go home. And the Military Police Battalion during

3 the next 10 days or so secured the area inhabited by Croat civilians, and

4 not a single HVO soldier was taken to the KP Dom. I don't know whether I

5 mentioned that.

6 Q. Tell me, what were the tasks of the Military Police Battalion

7 with respect to representatives of the International Community and

8 international organisations that were there?

9 A. In view of the blockade of the area, there was increasing demand

10 for food, so the question of hunger became a question of security too, and

11 there were increasing possibilities for a humanitarian organisation which

12 was transporting food to come under attack, so that the food and the goods

13 they were transporting might be looted.

14 Q. Was there any such incident and were you involved in any way --

15 or rather, the Military Police Battalion?

16 A. I personally was not involved in any such incident, but I do know

17 with certainty that at the beginning of September 1993 we received a

18 report that a UNHCR convoy had been blocked in the settlement of Ticici

19 [phoen] on the main road, between Kakanj and Zenica.

20 Q. And who carried out the blockade?

21 A. A large group of civilians and military men. They blocked the

22 convoy and started taking down bags of flour. When we received that

23 report, a patrol of the Military Police Battalion went there, and upon

24 arrival they met with resistance of those present and there was even a

25 grenade thrown at members of the military police.

Page 17329

1 Q. Were there any casualties and did the patrol manage to secure the

2 passage of the UNHCR convoy?

3 A. On that occasion, several people were wounded; some more

4 seriously, some more lightly, members of the Military Police Battalion.

5 And I know that the military policeman Topalovic Dzemal suffered serious

6 bodily injury and he became a 70 per cent invalid. As for the question

7 whether the convoy reached its destination, the answer is yes.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We are going to stop there

9 because it's quarter to 4.00. So we'll have the break now, and we'll

10 resume at ten past 4.00.

11 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.

12 --- On resuming at 4.13 p.m.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I shall give the floor again to

14 the Defence, but I don't think they have much time left.

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

16 Q. Mr. Saric, before the break you will remember that you explained

17 that your military police patrol was attacked and what the consequences

18 were. My question was whether your battalion's patrol managed

19 nevertheless to escort the convoy and -- to escort the convoy safely to

20 its destination.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Tell me, were you satisfied with the fact that you had escorted

23 the convoy, or did the battalion undertake other measures as well?

24 A. In cooperation with the Public Security Station in Kakanj, or the

25 Security Services Centre in Zenica, worked on the identification of the

Page 17330

1 persons who were involved in the incident, and after operative activities

2 on the ground, the persons who were involved in the incident were

3 identified, taken into custody, processed, and the competent prosecutor's

4 office filed criminal reports against seven persons for various criminal

5 offences they committed: Causing general danger, attacking a military

6 officer while performing his duties, being in possession of explosives and

7 weapons, and the like.

8 Q. Thank you. Tell me, Mr. Saric, let me go back a moment to some

9 previous questions linked to your duties when interrogating persons

10 captured in Dusina and taken to the KP Dom. Tell me, please: Rados

11 Dragan, was he taken to the KP Dom that same evening by the Military

12 Police Battalion?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. If I were to tell you that witness Dragan Rados testifying in

15 this court claimed that previously he was somewhere else and that after

16 that he was brought to the KP Dom, what would your response be?

17 A. My response would be that that is not true, because, as I have

18 already said, I interviewed Dragan Rados, among other people, in the place

19 I mentioned, the former JNA club, where the Military Police Battalion was

20 housed at the time.

21 Q. Those persons from whom you took statements, where were they

22 taken after that?

23 A. All those persons were taken back to the KP Dom in Zenica again.

24 Q. Thank you. In view of the fact that during your testimony,

25 Mr. Saric, you mentioned certain locations in Zenica --

Page 17331












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Page 17332

1 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Mr. President, I

2 would like to show the witness a map of Zenica, excerpt from set 5, in the

3 scale 1 to 25.000, for the witness to mark the places that he mentioned in

4 his testimony. As I only have one copy, I'd like it to be placed on the

5 ELMO so that we could follow.

6 Q. Mr. Saric, do you recognise this map? What does it show?

7 A. Yes. This is my native town.

8 Q. Mr. Saric, will you please take a marker and mark the facilities

9 I will mention and that you spoke about in the course of your testimony,

10 and from that spot will you draw a line and write down what the facility

11 is, and after that I'll ask you to sign the map. Do you understand?

12 A. Yes. But where shall I write the name?

13 Q. Tell me, where is the 3rd Corps command of which you were the

14 battalion?

15 A. The command was close to gate number 4 of the Zenica ironworks.

16 Q. Will you put a number there, an "X" and a number "1".

17 A. [Marks]

18 Q. And draw a line, and on the white border, write down "3rd Corps

19 command." From "1", draw a line to the frame.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Tell me now: The spot where you interrogated these people, the

22 JNA club where the Military Police Battalion was housed at the time or was

23 based at the time.

24 A. It would be roughly here.

25 Q. Put an "X" and a number "2" and a line and write down "The JNA

Page 17333

1 army club."

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. Now show us the KP Dom, where you took the people from Dusina and

4 where your battalion command was based later on.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. Will you please mark Ricica, the locality where the -- no,

7 Raspotocje, where the Military Battalion disarmed this battalion of the

8 2nd HVO Brigade.

9 A. I don't think it is shown on this map, but it is here. This is

10 the beginning of that locality. Raspotocje. But there's more of it off

11 the map.

12 Q. Could you now mark where Zivko Totic was kidnapped. You said it

13 was in a street in Pobrijezje.

14 A. Yes, here, along this stretch of road.

15 Q. I shall now ask you to mark the position of the district military

16 court in Zenica.

17 A. It is here within this block of buildings.

18 Q. Now, will you please tell us where the centre of the security

19 services was in Zenica that you said you cooperated with.

20 A. It was somewhere here. The square is called the

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina Square.

22 Q. Will you also show us the position of the higher and basic

23 courts -- or rather, prosecutor's offices -- basic and higher prosecutor's

24 offices in Zenica.

25 A. This is the higher court, and the basic court is very nearby.

Page 17334

1 Q. And can you also show the position of the music school, please.

2 A. The music school -- there's a park here. It was here.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence of General Kubura.

4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We need a point of

5 clarification. I don't think the witness mentioned the music school at

6 all; although, that was how this set of questions was introduced.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] That is correct. He's drawn it

8 now. I apologise for mentioning the music school.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's not very serious, because

10 I wanted him to mark it. So it's always useful.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Q. Now, will you now sign the map.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Captain, could you on this map

14 point to the hotel where members of international organisations were

15 housed. They must have stayed at a hotel. So could you show us where

16 that hotel was, if you know, of course.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do know. The Internacional

18 Hotel is close to the stadium.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to ask the witness to

20 date and sign this map with his markings on it, and I should like to

21 tender this document into evidence, and that ends my questions for this

22 witness. Thank you.

23 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 The lawyers for General Kubura.

Page 17335

1 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

2 don't have any questions for this witness at this point.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution then.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Neuner:

5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Saric.

6 A. Good afternoon.

7 Q. My name is Matthias Neuner, and I'm appearing here on behalf of

8 the Prosecution, and I will put a couple of questions to you. If you

9 don't understand any of these questions, I'm asking you to tell me that I

10 repeat the question. I'm also prepared to rephrase a question if

11 necessary. Do you understand this?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Apart from the 3rd Corps military police, which other MP,

14 military police units were stationed in Zenica in 1993?

15 A. I think I said that there were the military police of the 303rd

16 Brigade, of the 314th, and of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

17 Q. You also said that the commanders of this military -- of these

18 brigades of military police would first of all report to the military

19 security staff in their brigades. What I'm asking for is did at some

20 point in the chain of command the brigade's military police also report to

21 the 3rd Corps military police?

22 A. I said that the military police within the brigades was under the

23 command of the brigade commander through the military security service.

24 The 3rd Corps military battalion did not have any right to give orders to

25 those units.

Page 17336

1 Q. I wasn't asking for orders given downwards. I was more asking

2 for reports going upwards. If military police units of brigades found

3 something out, for example, in relation to the abduction of Zivko Totic,

4 would they convey, would they report that information also to the 3rd

5 Corps military police?

6 A. Along the line of reporting, they were obliged to inform the

7 military police of the 3rd Corps. And if we received such information, we

8 would forward it on and act accordingly in line with the law.

9 Q. In 1993, did you, as a member of the 3rd Corps military police,

10 ever cooperate with the military police of the 7th Muslim Mountain

11 Brigade?

12 A. I personally cannot remember taking part in any action with the

13 military police of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

14 Q. But your colleagues did?

15 A. Possibly.

16 Q. When you started in the 3rd Corps military police, by mid-January

17 1993 how many men were there in the 3rd Corps military police?

18 A. I believe - and I don't know whether I'm correct or not - that

19 there were between 250 and 300 members at that moment.

20 Q. You mentioned there were two chiefs, Mr. Bakir Alispahic and

21 Mr. Ismet Skopljak. Can you just clarify. By January -- or mid-January

22 1993, who was in charge of the 3rd Corps military police? Mr. Alispahic

23 or Mr. Skopljak?

24 A. You didn't understand me well. I was in the third tier of

25 command. My commander was Zaim Mujezinovic and at one point it was Bakir

Page 17337

1 Alispahic, who was my superior who was in charge of the department. My

2 superior was Bakir Alispahic and his superior was Zaim Mujezinovic.

3 Q. If you're referring to "department," you're referring to the

4 Department of Investigations.

5 A. Yes, the Department for Services implies all the services:

6 Patrol, escort, communications, traffic control, security, escort. And I

7 believe that these are the seven services that we had.

8 Q. And Mr. Skopljak, can you just clarify. What position did he

9 hold in January 1993?

10 A. In January 1993, Mr. Skopljak was an inspector in the Department

11 for Services, and then in April or maybe in June he became commander of

12 the Department for Services, replacing Bakir Alispahic in that position.

13 Q. And you yourself served throughout 1993 as an inspector.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Please describe briefly your main tasks.

16 A. In a nutshell, my duties as a crime-prevention inspector was when

17 I learned that a crime was committed that was prosecuted ex officio, in

18 cooperation -- firstly, the duty service would inform the duty judge of

19 the district court. And if he wanted us to collect information, we would

20 do that. If the crime was committed by an unknown perpetrator, we

21 collected information and analysed it with a view to detecting the

22 perpetrator. So this would be in a nutshell the duties that I performed.

23 Q. You mentioned that Bakir Alispahic was your superior in the first

24 half of 1993. Did he attend interrogations with prisoners of war?

25 A. I don't remember whether he did, whether he was present in the

Page 17338

1 area where we interrogated them. This was a rather large office. He may

2 have been there, but he didn't have to be there. I don't remember whether

3 he was. In any case, we received our orders from him.

4 Q. You mentioned that sometimes reports would be sent to the

5 battalion command and sometimes directly to the 3rd Corps command. Can

6 you clarify when such reports were sent to the 3rd Corps command.

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I apologise.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I did not hear the witness saying

10 that he was reporting directly to the command of the 3rd Corps. Maybe my

11 learned friend could explain himself.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Prosecution, could you

13 please be more precise in putting your question to the witness regarding

14 the reports and where they went. The Defence would like you to clarify

15 that.

16 MR. NEUNER: I haven't written down the transcript page. I

17 cannot submit it at this point in time. I think, yeah, I just found it.

18 One second. I cannot submit it at this point in time. I will ask another

19 question, Your Honour.

20 It was on page 15. I cannot give any line. I just wrote this

21 down that on page 15 information was forwarded to the battalion command or

22 to the corps command. I just wanted to clarify this. That -- this was

23 the purpose of my question.

24 Q. Maybe, witness, you can clarify. Did you never send any reports

25 to the 3rd Corps command, or did this occasionally occur?

Page 17339

1 A. No. The department was part of the system of command and control

2 of the police battalion, and all the reports were forwarded via the

3 Military Police Battalion.

4 Q. Mr. Mujezinovic upon receiving a report, to whom would he send

5 his reports? To whom would he forward this information?

6 A. He would forward those reports to the Security Services Centre of

7 the 3rd Corps.

8 Q. The military security of the 3rd Corps.

9 A. Yes, of course.

10 Q. And this would be Mr. Ramiz Dugalic? Would he send it to the

11 head of the military security or to somebody else?

12 A. Directly to the chief of services.

13 Q. Thank you. In 1993, was the KP Dom also referred to as, and I

14 quote, "collection centre in Zenica"?

15 A. The name was not used for the complete KP Dom. There were still

16 parts that were under the jurisdiction of the civilian courts. One part

17 of the KP Dom was rearranged, and it was a reception centre for the

18 reception of prisoners of war.

19 Q. If a document would contain a reference to "collection centre"

20 and not to a "reception centre," to a collection centre in Zenica -- I

21 wasn't on the ground in 1993. To your estimate, to which facility would

22 this document relate to?

23 A. I've never heard the term "collection centre" before.

24 Q. You mentioned already that prisoners were brought to the KP Dom

25 from Lasva, from the elementary school. Do you remember from which other

Page 17340

1 detention facilities in the 3rd Corps area of responsibility prisoners of

2 war were brought to the KP Dom?

3 A. Are you referring to the centre for reception of prisoners of

4 war?

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. The centre was established in June when the first conflicts with

7 the Serbs in Zenica broke out. Then it started functioning. And if there

8 was any need to bring in prisoners of war from wherever, they would be

9 brought to this reception centre. That was a rule.

10 Q. You mentioned in June. Do I take it this was -- you're referring

11 to June 1993?

12 A. No, June 1992, when there were conflicts with the Serbs in

13 Zenica.

14 Q. Thank you for the clarification.

15 If I may ask, were prisoners of war from the JNA barracks in

16 Travnik brought to the collection centre? The KP Dom in Zenica.

17 A. I wouldn't know.

18 Q. Were any members from the Zenica -- were any prisoners from the

19 Zenica Music School ever brought to the collection centre, the Zenica KP

20 Dom?

21 A. Again, I wouldn't know.

22 Q. So apart from conducting interviews, did you have any contact to

23 prisoners of war at the Zenica KP Dom collection centre?

24 A. Are you referring to the prisoners that we had brought from

25 Dusina? Are you referring to these specific prisoners of war?

Page 17341












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Page 17342

1 Q. In general, during your tasks you were engaged in in 1993, did

2 you have any contact with prisoners of war while working in 1993 in

3 Zenica?

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 Q. Can you please briefly explain what contact you had.

6 A. Like in the first case: We took statements that we forwarded to

7 the military district court. We -- we took statements in which we

8 described the participation of these prisoners of war in combat.

9 Q. Did you take these statements always in Zenica, or did you

10 occasionally also travel somewhere else to where the prisoners were held

11 in temporary detention facilities?

12 A. I took such statements exclusively in the Zenica KP Dom.

13 Q. Who told you on the 26th of January, 1993 to collect the captured

14 persons in Lasva?

15 A. I don't understand. We did not collect anybody there. We just

16 took them over.

17 Q. So who was in Zenica - the person - who told you to take the

18 prisoners over from Lasva?

19 A. The commander of the battalion of the military police, through my

20 superior, Bakir Alispahic.

21 Q. And during your travel to Lasva and on the spot, who was in

22 charge of the 3rd Corps Military Police Staff during the takeover or

23 transfer of prisoners?

24 A. I was in charge of that.

25 Q. When you arrived in Lasva itself, to which ABiH soldiers present

Page 17343

1 there did you speak first?

2 A. I didn't know them. I believe that they were members of the 2nd

3 PDO and members of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

4 Q. And do you remember any names of the commander or of the persons

5 you spoke to?

6 A. No, I really don't remember.

7 Q. So did you speak outside of the school to these persons? Did you

8 enter a building?

9 A. I believe that it was at the entrance to the building. I

10 remember that there was no light. It was already dark. And the members

11 of the military unit that had participated in combat on that day, I spoke

12 to them at the entrance to the school.

13 Q. What did they tell you, these members of the military units?

14 A. They told me more or less something along the following lines:

15 That there is no problem, that they would hand over the prisoners of war

16 to us after certain consultations with their superiors.

17 Q. And do you know who their own superiors were, or were you present

18 when they consulted their own superiors?

19 A. No, I wasn't present and I don't know who their superiors were.

20 Q. You yourself, did you ever enter the elementary school in Lasva?

21 A. No.

22 Q. You testified that there was - and I quote - "an unpleasant

23 situation on the ground" in Lasva. What do you mean by "unpleasant

24 situation on the ground"?

25 A. I meant what I said. For me it was an unpleasant situation

Page 17344

1 because there were a lot of civilians and a lot of soldiers there. It was

2 noisy, and I had a mission to carry out.

3 Q. What was your impression? Who was, before you arrived, in charge

4 of the prisoners? Was it the members from the 2nd, I think, Battalion of

5 the Zenica Municipal Defence Staff, or was it, rather, the 7th Muslim

6 Mountain Brigade soldiers?

7 A. I'm not sure who it was. I know that these two units were active

8 in the area. I really don't know who was in charge of the prisoners.

9 Q. How many men altogether did you take back to Zenica? I mean

10 prisoners of war.

11 A. Yes. I believe that there were approximately 20 of them. I

12 can't be sure of their exact number. Twenty or so.

13 Q. And you mentioned that there was one prisoner who had

14 difficulties of some kind who was put in a car. He couldn't walk. Was he

15 injured? Can you please just tell.

16 A. A member of the military police informed me that one of the

17 prisoners was complaining of pain, that he had problems walking. He could

18 walk, but he had problems walking. I did not see any visible injuries on

19 his body, but I myself could see that he had problems walking. I ordered

20 for this prisoner to be put in the passenger vehicle and to sit in there.

21 Q. Were you aware that all prisoners were going to the Zenica KP

22 Dom, or was there a few other prisoners who were going in another

23 direction? Did you see everybody boarding the bus before you left with

24 the car?

25 A. All the prisoners of war that I took over boarded the bus, and

Page 17345

1 they were all brought to the Zenica KP Dom.

2 Q. Was there a second person who took over other prisoners?

3 A. While I was there, nobody else was there.

4 Q. When you left, were there any prisoners of war remaining in

5 Lasva? I mean, you hadn't looked in the school itself, but did you see

6 that a few Croat prisoners stayed in Lasva?

7 A. I don't know. The prisoners that I took over were transferred to

8 the KP Dom.

9 Q. And in Lasva itself, did you see Dragan Rados boarding the bus to

10 the KP Dom Zenica?

11 A. At that moment, I didn't know who Dragan Rados was. On the

12 following day, I spoke to him and I know that he is the man who boarded

13 the bus on that day. He was taken to the KP Dom. And on the following

14 day, he was one of the persons whom I interviewed, Dragan Rados.

15 Q. So you positively saw him entering the bus, which was then driven

16 to the KP Dom.

17 A. At the moment when I was taking the prisoners over, I didn't know

18 who Dragan Rados was. On the following day, I spoke to three prisoners

19 and Dragan Rados was among them. So I know for a fact that he was amongst

20 those who had boarded the buses, who had been taken to the JNA centre, and

21 he was among the three with whom I spoke on the following day.

22 Q. You mentioned in your testimony that somebody talked in Lasva

23 about battle casualties. Who exactly was this person? Do you remember

24 anything, from which ABiH unit this person was, his name?

25 A. No. I've told you that the soldiers were mixed with the

Page 17346

1 civilians, and I really can't remember who it was in the crowd, who said

2 that. It was dark and there were a lot of people there. But I learnt

3 that in the combat that had taken place that day, earlier that day, that

4 there were casualties on both sides.

5 Q. What exactly did you learn about the casualties? A number, an

6 event?

7 A. Nothing precise. I only learnt that on the BiH army side Camdzic

8 was killed together with another member, and also that the commander of

9 the area of the HVO, Zvonko Rajic, was also killed. And this is all the

10 information that I had at the time.

11 Q. You mentioned three names: Viktor Rajic, Dragan Rados, and a

12 person you described as Kristo. If I may ask: Would it refresh your

13 recollection if this person is called Anto Kristo or Franjo Kristo? I'm

14 just asking. Maybe you recall.

15 A. I don't know. Kristo is a very popular name, and the first name

16 is either Franjo or Anto or Stipe, which is again a popular name. But I

17 remember him because he told me that he worked at the national theatre of

18 Zenica, and that's how I remember him.

19 Q. And who tasked you the next day, on the 27th of January, to take

20 the statements?

21 A. The investigative judge of the district court was already

22 involved in the investigation. We received our orders from him, the

23 order -- the orders to collect information. We received this order from

24 the battalion command, to -- to collect the statements. And -- and the

25 MUP was involved in the rest of the crime investigation.

Page 17347

1 Q. Do you know the name of the investigative judge?

2 A. There were only four or five such judges at the time, and I

3 believe that on that particular occasion it was Mirsad Strika who was on

4 duty.

5 Q. How many statements were taken altogether, not only by you but

6 maybe by your colleagues?

7 A. Maybe four or five. And I took three statements. And if you

8 multiply that by the number of us, you will arrive at a number of maybe 15

9 to 20. And that pretty much equals the number of prisoners that we had

10 brought in.

11 Q. So I take it virtually every of these prisoners who were taken or

12 transferred from Lasva to KP Dom were interviewed?

13 A. I cannot be sure of that. I can't be positive of that. I know

14 that I took three statements. I don't know who else took any other

15 statements, whether all the prisoners were interviewed or not. I suppose

16 that they were.

17 Q. And these statements, did you write the statements down and have

18 the interrogated person sign it at the end?

19 A. Yes. This is how we worked, and we forwarded the statements to

20 be enclosed with the court file, because we worked at the request of the

21 court.

22 Q. So you want to say that you forwarded them to Judge Strika, the

23 investigative judge.

24 A. Yes, to Judge Strika, who was in charge of the investigation.

25 And we also forwarded an official record to the military security services

Page 17348

1 centre via our battalion command.

2 Q. And did you write also your own assessment after having taken

3 these statements, what transpired out of these statements? Do you recall

4 that you wrote something maybe to your superior?

5 A. Yes. More or less what I've already said in response to

6 Mrs. Residovic's questions. These members of the HVO, these prisoners,

7 mostly wanted to mitigate their responsibility and their participation.

8 They expressed regret, but none of them told me anything that might have

9 pointed to something illegal having taken place.

10 Q. Did you or your colleagues perform an on-site visit in Dusina

11 proper?

12 A. No, because the duty judge in the district military court took

13 over the case, and as I have already said, in such cases he is in charge

14 of the investigation and he issues orders. It is only upon his

15 instructions that it is possible to take any measures.

16 Q. So I understand that no on-site visit was being -- taking place.

17 A. No, I personally didn't make such a visit, and if the duty judge

18 had given such instructions, it would have been done. Now, why it wasn't,

19 I don't know.

20 Q. Would the 3rd Corps military police normally be the unit who

21 would perform such an on-site visit, since you had interviewed already a

22 few prisoners of war? Would the 3rd Corps military police have done such

23 an on-site visit?

24 A. It would be customary if we had received such orders from the

25 duty judge in the district military court.

Page 17349

1 Q. When foreigners were suspected of being involved in crimes and

2 then the Rules of Service of the military police of the ABiH envisaged

3 mandatory cooperation between the MUP and the CSB -- between the 3rd Corps

4 military police, on the one hand side, and the MUP and the CSB, on the

5 other hand side. Can you confirm that?

6 A. I said that if civilians had taken part in committing crimes

7 which are prosecuted by -- ex officio and if military property had been

8 stolen or damaged and, in the case of criminal offences that I have

9 already listed, then cooperation is established with the Security Services

10 Centre.

11 MR. NEUNER: With the assistance of the usher, can I just

12 distribute P328. These are the Rules of the Service of the military

13 police of the ABiH, and I'm referring to section 50, the last sentence of

14 section 50. This is contained in Chapter 2, "Military police services,"

15 under the heading 7, "Crime prevention service."

16 Q. Yes, it is page 22. I'm only interested in the last sentence.

17 Can you please read the last sentence out loud.

18 A. Did you say paragraph 50?

19 Q. Paragraph 50, yes. Last sentence.

20 A. "When we are talking about military offences that the military

21 police has to investigate, when the perpetrator or accomplice of a

22 criminal offence is a citizen of the republic who is not a member of the

23 armed forces or a foreign citizen without diplomatic status, the necessary

24 measure shall be taken by the authorised official of the military police

25 in collaboration with the competent MUP organs."

Page 17350

1 Q. Thank you. What is the reason for ordering a mandatory

2 cooperation between, for example, the 3rd Corps military police and the

3 Zenica CSB in case that a foreigner is suspected of being a perpetrator of

4 a crime? Can you explain?

5 A. I think I've already explained how we cooperated with the

6 Security Services Centre and MUP. If we are talking about criminal

7 offences that are prosecuted, such as the foundations of the social order

8 and crimes against the armed forces committed by civilians or by a

9 foreigner, in that case cooperation had to be established with the CSB and

10 the MUP. So the military police in that case was not independent in

11 performing its duties.

12 Q. So whenever a foreigner was involved, basically cooperation with

13 the CSB Zenica by the 3rd Corps military police was mandatory, is it?

14 A. No. If a foreigner is a perpetrator of an offence which comes

15 within the jurisdiction of the military court, then the military police is

16 not duty-bound to react. But for only those criminal offences that I have

17 listed. If a foreigner committed an offence which was not against the

18 army as the damaged party, then this cooperation is not mandatory, but

19 only if the armed forces are the damaged party. Then the same rules apply

20 for civilians and for foreigners.

21 Q. If you'd look again at the last sentence of paragraph 50. It

22 just talks about criminal offence. It doesn't talk about, as you stated

23 before, a crime against the army committed by this foreigner or whatever.

24 It just talks about a criminal offence, any criminal offence, isn't it?

25 A. No. I have to read the previous sentence: "When criminal

Page 17351












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17352

1 offences are acted on by the military security service, the competent

2 organ of the military security service is immediately informed thereof and

3 the military police organs undertake measures which brook no delay," so

4 the criminal offences are those directed against the foundations of the

5 social order, as I have already listed. And one would have to look at the

6 Law on Criminal Procedure as well to have full insight.

7 Q. If I move on to the Totic abduction. In the aftermath of this

8 abduction occurring on the 15th of April, 1993, were there any joint

9 meetings held between the 3rd Corps, its military police, and the CSB

10 Zenica?

11 A. Probably yes, but I was not at such a level as to attend such

12 meetings.

13 Q. Just -- I'm mentioning two names from the CSB Zenica. Do you

14 know Faik Badic and Enes Saric, who also participated in measures relating

15 to the Totic abduction? Do you know them?

16 A. It's Faik Spahic and -- not "Badic," and Enes Saric. Yes, I do

17 know them.

18 Q. Do you know about their involvement in the investigations

19 relating to Totic's kidnapping?

20 A. No, I don't know.

21 Q. Do you know whether any information exchange occurred between the

22 military police of the 3rd Corps and the CSB Zenica?

23 A. Yes, I think that a broad-based campaign was conducted. Parts of

24 the MP battalion were engaged to escort mixed commissions formed to tour

25 the villages around Zenica, and a second group of members of the military

Page 17353

1 police were engaged for operative work on the ground to collect

2 information about the abduction, and of course there was an exchange of

3 information with members of the CSB.

4 Q. So isn't it that when one group had found out something during

5 the search of the terrain or the monitoring of the terrain, that it would

6 report on a kind of conference or meeting on the next day -- it would

7 report simply its results so that by sharing information, the most

8 effective measures were implemented to find Zivko Totic, isn't it?

9 A. I believe so. But I must repeat. I did not attend such

10 meetings, and I don't know how the exchange of information was carried

11 out.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the Defence has

13 just answered the question. I just wanted to object because the witness

14 said previously that he was not at such a level to be able to attend these

15 meetings. But my learned friend insists on meetings, and I was going to

16 say that there was no grounds for continuing with such line of

17 questioning. But the witness has just repeated the same statement.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Prosecution, please

19 continue.


21 Q. Can you describe your role in the Totic investigation. You were

22 attending the on-site visit in Pobrijezje, I understand, but did you do

23 something else?

24 A. I did not go on site. You misunderstood. What I told you here

25 is information that I received from my colleagues who returned from the

Page 17354

1 on-site visit. My role was to collect operative information from

2 citizens, from members of the army, from various entities, information

3 that I was able to get hold of so that as part of this broad-based action

4 we might gain insight into reliable information as to how Mr. Totic was

5 abducted.

6 Q. What specific measures did you take and when did you take them?

7 Can you please elaborate a little bit.

8 A. The investigation went on for about four or five days, I think,

9 and the measures I took stemmed from my functional duties, and that is to

10 collect operative knowledge on the ground in the town of Zenica, in the

11 village of Pobrijezje, other villages near Zenica. That is what operative

12 work is all about, working with people who might have some knowledge about

13 the matter, and talking to them I might be able to contribute to the

14 overall investigation.

15 Q. So you took witness statements when talking to certain people in

16 Pobrijezje or in other villages surrounding Zenica, as you just mentioned?

17 A. I didn't understand the question.

18 Q. You mentioned that you talked to them - meaning you talked to

19 people - in order to contribute to the overall investigation. These talks

20 which you held, were you taking witness statements or ...?

21 A. No. I didn't talk to witnesses. My work was based on collecting

22 information. As a matter of principle, all inspectors engaging in such

23 activities were able to collect information, but those statements could

24 not be used as evidence in court and they were not relevant in the

25 pre-trial proceedings.

Page 17355

1 Q. You mentioned other villages in the surroundings of Zenica. Do

2 you still recall the names of these villages? In which direction did you

3 go?

4 A. In the direction of the village Pobrijezje, Babino - this is a

5 large area - I said that this went on for three or four days, and I was

6 able to tour those villages, but I also collected information in the town

7 of Zenica itself.

8 Q. If I would show you a map of the area, would you be in a position

9 to point out whereabouts you went?

10 A. Yes, certainly.

11 MR. NEUNER: We have also copies for everybody.

12 Q. As a starting point, you have already mentioned the point of the

13 abduction, and you have encircled that on the other map shown by my

14 learned friend. Can you just show where the abduction occurred in

15 Pobrijezje.

16 MR. NEUNER: With the assistance of the usher, if the map could

17 be moved a little bit. Thank you.

18 A. [Indicates]

19 Q. Can you please encircle the place Pobrijezje and mark with a "1".

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. So where next did you go? Or first of all, what did you do in

22 Pobrijezje, you yourself?

23 A. I came to Podbrezje the next day or the day after. I have some

24 friends there. I tried to find out from them where they had seen anything

25 or heard anything, whether they knew anything about the way in which the

Page 17356

1 abduction took place and about the event itself.

2 Q. And what did you hear?

3 A. Yes, I heard that Mr. Zivko Totic had been abducted from four

4 unidentified persons -- or rather, four persons had been killed from the

5 escort, that he was kidnapped by unknown people, that Mr. Totic was in a

6 van, a motor vehicle, and that he was driven off in an unknown direction.

7 That was the information I was able to collect in that area. Nothing more

8 than that.

9 Q. Did you know the colour of the van in which Mr. Totic was driven

10 away?

11 A. I really can't remember now. Maybe I knew at the time, but now I

12 can't remember.

13 Q. And where did you go next?

14 A. After that, I was in the town of Zenica itself. I went to the

15 area of this, Babino, Pesivica, Kasapovici, Kula. And I collected

16 information there too.

17 Q. Did you know that on the day, the 15th of April, 1993 -- on the

18 day itself a second on-site visit was conducted in Babino-Rijeka area,

19 that there was a van which was crushed into a bridge fence? Did you hear

20 about this?

21 A. [No interpretation]

22 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, I don't get any interpretation.

23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness.


25 Q. Could you please repeat your answer.

Page 17357

1 A. I think there was a misinterpretation. I was told that the van

2 had hit against some sort of boat. But anyway, I hadn't heard anything

3 like that.

4 Q. What I was asking for: You said you went to the Babina

5 settlement. There is a document DH340 in evidence, and this document

6 mentions the second on-site visit which was conducted on the 15th of

7 April, 1993 and this second on-site visit was in Babino area exactly where

8 you appear to have been and a red van was found there, a Ford van. Do you

9 recall having been in Babino yourself, having seen that van or having been

10 on the spot?

11 A. I've already told you that a broad action was mobilised and that

12 members of the military police covered a vast area. Babino is a very

13 large area, and I wasn't there at that time.

14 Q. And when did you go to Babino, please?

15 A. I was there at the beginning of the village. I didn't go further

16 up. It's a mountainous area. Kasapovici Kula. I don't know exactly what

17 day, but that is where I went.

18 Q. Can you please encircle Babino area for everybody.

19 A. In my understanding, Babino is a vast area covering all these

20 villages. All these villages, Jurjevici, Vranovici, Lijeske. All this is

21 Babino. Kula, Novo Selo. Roughly all of this. It's a very large area.

22 Q. Okay. And to the east, can you just mark, because it isn't clear

23 to me as you have marked it -- to the east, where is the eastern border or

24 maybe you cannot even see the eastern border on this map.

25 A. It borders on the municipality of Kakanj, the village of

Page 17358

1 Radinovici [phoen] and many other villages are there.

2 Q. So it would be the entire upper right-hand corner of this map

3 basically, as you have halfway encircled it; is that correct?

4 A. Yes, quite. That is the area of Babino, all of this.

5 Q. To the best of my recollection of your recollection, in 1993,

6 which ABiH unit were stationed in this vast area you just described?

7 A. I don't remember that any unit of the army was stationed in that

8 area. The barracks were in the town of Zenica. But territorially they

9 were covered by the anti-sabotage detachments. I don't know which, 1st,

10 2nd, or 3rd Detachment. So the local population who defended the area

11 from any possibility of saboteurs infiltrating it.

12 Q. Anti-sabotage detachment, are you talking about the District

13 Staff in Zenica or the Municipal Staff in Zenica? Just for clarification.

14 A. These units were subordinated to the Municipal Staff of Zenica.

15 Q. Thank you. And Mr. Mahir told us you went to Arnauti. Did you

16 yourself go to Arnauti?

17 A. If he said he was in Arnauti, he probably was. I was not.

18 Q. So which other -- which are the village did you visit during

19 your time, during your investigations?

20 A. I said that the investigation didn't last long, that it was a

21 large area. I went to Kasapovici, Kula. At the beginning of Babino, I

22 was in Podbrezje, and I collected information about potential perpetrators

23 in the town of Zenica. That is what I did over a period of four days.

24 Q. Can you please mark Kula. I think it is number 2 or -- I think

25 it's number 2, if you'd encircle it.

Page 17359

1 A. [Marks]

2 Q. And Kasapovici, please encircle this and place next to it a "3".

3 A. [Marks]

4 Q. What was the reason, to the best of your recollection, that the

5 investigations were focussing on this area?

6 A. The reason was that parallel with these investigations of ours, a

7 mixed commission had been formed which was touring the same area. So we

8 pooled our efforts with the work of the commission, and I, as an inspector

9 in the services department, visited this one area.

10 Q. But my question is: Why focussing on an area south-east of

11 Zenica? Why not on the north-west or other places? To the best of your

12 recollection, why did the main investigative activities focus on this

13 area?

14 A. Because that was the assignment I was given. I said that on the

15 first day I went to quite the opposite side, the village of Podbrezje. So

16 that is perhaps north-west. It is quite in the opposite direction.

17 Someone else was assigned to tour some other regions. So what I said was

18 collecting information in the field. This is called "operative work."

19 Q. Can you please encircle "Arnauti" and place a "4" next to it.

20 A. [Marks]

21 Q. Thank you. Have you ever heard of a village or a hamlet called

22 Gradina?

23 A. I think that there's a place called Gradina in Busovaca

24 municipality. I'm not familiar with that village in this area. I only

25 know of a Gradina near Putis in Busovaca municipality, a place called

Page 17360

1 Gradina.

2 Q. There's a Gradina there, but there's also another Gradina 3 to 4

3 kilometres away from Arnauti, but you obviously haven't heard about this.

4 A. I never heard of that Gradina.

5 Q. Do you know in the area where an Uma Maslic [phoen] Elementary

6 School was located?

7 A. I believe that this elementary school is now called Mesa

8 Selimovic, but I'm not sure.

9 Q. Would you be in a position to find it on the map?

10 A. If I understand you well, we are talking about a school in

11 Zenica. In Talica Brdo Street.

12 Q. No, thank you. This is -- this is another school.

13 A. [No interpretation]

14 Q. Yes. Thank you.

15 Did you ever hear, either during your military police

16 investigations or otherwise, that certain individuals were involved in

17 kidnapping Mr. Totic? Did you hear any names?

18 A. No, we didn't hear names. I believe that the investigation was

19 interrupted because an international organisation the name of which I

20 can't remember at the moment asked for the investigation to be called off

21 because they feared for the security of the kidnapped person, and that's

22 why the investigation was interrupted.

23 Q. Did you ever hear mention of the name Ramo Durmis in relation to

24 the investigation or in relation to the abduction of Zivko Totic?

25 A. I can't remember ever hearing -- that I ever heard anybody

Page 17361












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Page 17362

1 mentioning that name.

2 Q. Did you ever hear the name Sabahudin Adilovic.

3 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I didn't want to

4 interrupt my learned friend; however, the past several questions have had

5 nothing to do with my questions or the answers that the witness has

6 provided so far. If my learned friend thinks that he has reason for these

7 questions to be put, then he has to lay a legal foundation for asking

8 questions about certain persons and names. So far he has mentioned two

9 names without laying any legal foundation for such questions. And I think

10 that this shouldn't be allowed.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you've heard

12 the objection by the Defence. Could you tell us what are you trying to

13 achieve. What have you established with regard to Ramo Durmis and how

14 could this witness be involved with that person? The Defence says that

15 they haven't mentioned this name in their examination-in-chief, and if you

16 want to mention this name, if you want to ask the witness about this

17 person, what is your foundation? What are the legal grounds for this?

18 MR. NEUNER: Your Honours, first of all, the -- my learned friend

19 has put several questions in relation to the Totic abduction, and I think

20 this is the first time that now through the map and all the places which

21 were indeed visited by this witness, that we see where the scope of the

22 main investigative activity was. And the very fact that the Prosecution

23 is asking for some knowledge about whether certain names came up in

24 investigation is just a way of exploring what the witness may know. He is

25 free to say, "I have never heard these names during my investigation."

Page 17363

1 That's indeed the aim of the Prosecution, just to find out whether certain

2 names and knowledge about certain names existed at a certain period in

3 time.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you may proceed in asking

5 whether in his investigation he heard certain names being mentioned, and

6 we shall see whether he says yes or no. If he says yes, then you can ask

7 him whether he knows Adilovic or Durmis. You may repeat your question.

8 You may proceed.


10 Q. First of all, since I have mentioned the name Ramo Durmis

11 already, does the name Ramo Durmis -- not necessarily in relation to

12 Totic -- have you ever heard the name Ramo Durmis?

13 A. Yes, I've heard of Ramo Durmis.

14 Q. Can you please tell us what you have heard about him.

15 A. I first learned of him towards the end of 1992 during the

16 fighting for deblocking the city of Sarajevo. At that time, he clashed

17 with certain commanders in the territory of Visoko, and I believe that my

18 colleagues investigated the matter. And that's when I first heard of Ramo

19 Durmis.

20 Q. Did you know what type of investigation was launched by your

21 colleagues? Did they tell you?

22 A. I was not directly involved, and it was a long time ago, in 1992.

23 I really can't tell you with any degree of certainty about the

24 investigation. I only know what I've just told you, that there was an

25 investigation of some sort because Ramo Durmis had clashed with the

Page 17364

1 commanders with regard to the number of casualties in the Visoko theatre

2 of war or something like that.

3 Q. Other than -- other than that, do you know anything else about

4 Ramo Durmis, especially in 1993?

5 A. Let me put it this way: After that, his name was often mentioned

6 in our services because he was a member of one unit and then -- and then

7 he was not a member of any unit. He was often searched by our services.

8 Nobody knew where he was.

9 Q. Can you elaborate a little bit? In which unit was he a member,

10 first?

11 A. I don't know. I don't even know whether he was an army member or

12 not. I wouldn't know.

13 Q. So only your colleagues had any investigations against Ramo

14 Durmis? You said he was a kind of known person or -- if I can just ask:

15 What are you referring to?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, the Defence.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] The witness never said that many

18 persons -- many people knew of him. He just said that his name was often

19 mentioned in various searches and so on and so forth.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, this is exactly what the

21 witness has told us.

22 MR. NEUNER: It says here in the transcript, and I'm quoting from

23 page 66, line 2: "He" - meaning Ramo Durmis- "was often searched by our

24 services." Often.

25 Q. If I may just ask: He was often searched in relation to

Page 17365

1 investigations, in relation to particular incidents? Do you know

2 anything?

3 A. I don't know anything specific, and I don't wish to speculate.

4 I've heard of the name. The name does ring a bell. I know that he was

5 mentioned later on. I don't know what the context was. I don't know

6 whether he was a member of the army or not.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, the witness has

8 already answered that question. This has been answered -- asked and

9 answered at least two or three times.

10 MR. NEUNER: I'll move on.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In any case, it is twenty to

12 6.00. I have to make a break. We have already worked for an hour and a

13 half. We shall now adjourn and we will resume around five past 6.00.

14 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please proceed.


18 Q. After the release of Mr. Totic, investigative activities were

19 again possible. Did you engage again in investigative activities, or your

20 unit?

21 A. I was never given any specific orders with regard to that case.

22 I personally did not receive any tasks, and I don't know if anybody else

23 did.

24 Q. So from the 18th of May, when Mr. Totic -- 1993, when Mr. Totic

25 was released, you weren't engaging in any investigative activities to find

Page 17366

1 the perpetrators of the abduction of Mr. Totic.

2 A. It was the 18th of April, not the 18th of May. I didn't say that

3 there were no investigations. I said that I was not involved in any

4 investigations. I mentioned the settlement of Raspotocje, and I was

5 engaged in the disarmament of this battalion that I mentioned earlier on.

6 Q. I was referring to the period after his release, which is, I

7 believe, 18th of May, 1993 onwards. And I was just asking whether you --

8 and I understood you didn't perform any further investigative activities,

9 isn't it? In relation to the Totic kidnapping.

10 A. I did not carry out any investigation. I don't know whether

11 anybody else from the military police did. They may have done that, but I

12 don't know whether they did or not.

13 Q. Did you ever file a criminal report relating to Totic kidnapping?

14 A. I said that an investigative judge was on the scene. A

15 prosecutor was also there. And they were in charge of the investigation.

16 We worked on their orders, on the order of the investigative judge, that

17 is.

18 MR. NEUNER: If I could, with the assistance of the usher, have

19 the map my learned friend has used at the end of her examination-in-chief.

20 Q. Witness, I'm just asking you to point, if you know, to the

21 headquarter of Zivko Totic, where he was abducted on the 15th of April and

22 I think he was -- you have marked the point where he was abducted. If you

23 could just show where his headquarter is, please. Point to it.

24 A. I said that it was approximately here. I can't be more precise

25 than that. I know that the command of this brigade of the Jure Francetic

Page 17367

1 Brigade was in the administrative building of the Vatrostalna company in

2 Podbrezje.

3 Q. Could you just make a cross where this Vatrostalna company or

4 Totic's headquarters is.

5 A. I believe that it was here.

6 Q. Can you for the benefit of the Trial Chamber say how many

7 kilometres it is from this Vatrostalna enterprise premise to the 3rd

8 headquarters, how many kilometres?

9 A. The distance as the crow flies is not large. However, from the

10 command of the Jure Francetic to the other command, you have to go around

11 the ironworks. You could not cut through the ironworks directly. So it

12 could be some 10 kilometres or more.

13 Q. Thank you very much.

14 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution has no further questions.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The Defence, you

16 have the floor.

17 Re-examined by Ms. Residovic:

18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Saric, you said who you reported to with

19 regard to the interviews that you had with the captured persons from

20 Lasva. You said that you drafted an official record and that it went to

21 the security organ of the 3rd Corps. Do you know who the chief of the

22 security sector was in January 1993?

23 A. In January 1993, it could have been Tadija Brekalo or Avdic

24 Nasif. I don't know exactly.

25 Q. Since my learned friend mentioned Ramiz Dugalic, do you know when

Page 17368

1 he was appointed the chief of the security sector of the 3rd Corps?

2 A. I believe that it was somewhat later, in March, or even the

3 beginning of April.

4 Q. Thank you very much. My learned friend showed you P327, which is

5 the rules of the work of the military police. Could we look at the

6 document once again, the Rules of Service for the military police. Could

7 we look at paragraph 328 [as interpreted].

8 MR. NEUNER: Just for the record, this is P328, not P327.

9 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 Thank you. It is 328.

11 Q. Could you please look at Article 50 under 7, "Crime prevention

12 service." In response to my learned friend's question, you said that the

13 joint work of the military police and the Security Services Centre was

14 always carried out when the crimes falling under the jurisdiction of the

15 district military court which are prosecuted ex officio are perpetrated by

16 other persons, civilians or foreigners who were treated as civilians. Is

17 that what you said in response to my learned friend's question?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you please read the first sentence of Article 50.

20 A. "If a person is suspected of committing an offence within the

21 jurisdiction of the military court which is prosecuted ex officio,

22 authorised members of the military police have the duty to undertake the

23 necessary measures to locate the perpetrator of the criminal offence, to

24 see that the offender or accomplice should not go into hiding or escape

25 and to uncover or protect the traces of a criminal act and any objects

Page 17369

1 which can be used as evidence and to assemble all information liable to be

2 useful for a successful trial."

3 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Saric: The first sentence that you have

4 just read out, doesn't it clearly show that you only acted when a crime

5 was committed that fell within the jurisdiction of the military court?

6 A. Yes. If you read only the last sentence, you may have a

7 different impression. However, if you read the entire context, you will

8 be clear on the contents of this article.

9 Q. You have also told us that after the kidnapping of

10 Mr. Zivko Totic you had a task to collect certain operative information.

11 Mr. Saric, this collection of operative information on the ground, did it

12 have to assume a certain form, or was it still an informal part of the

13 pre-criminal procedure?

14 A. Precisely so. This was an informal part of the pre-criminal

15 procedure.

16 Q. In your capacity as the inspector of the criminal -- of the

17 military police, when you found yourself in a position to take a

18 statement, were you ever authorised to interview a person as a witness?

19 A. No.

20 Q. What was the nature of the statement given to the police, either

21 to the civilian police or the military police?

22 A. It could not be used as evidence in criminal proceedings.

23 Q. Could it ever be used in criminal proceedings or -- or shown to

24 the person who had given that statement?

25 A. I've already answered that. It did not have any value in

Page 17370

1 criminal procedure.

2 Q. When you took statements from certain persons who might

3 eventually become suspects during the formal part of your pre-criminal

4 procedure, did these persons have to tell the truth? Did you warn them

5 about their obligation to tell the truth?

6 MR. NEUNER: The Prosecution wishes to formulate an objection.

7 The last question was leading.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I don't see how it was leading,

9 but I can rephrase it.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, rephrase it, please.

11 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Mr. Saric, how do you take statements for suspects? In our

13 law -- or under our law, are these persons obliged to tell the truth in

14 the informal or the formal part of the procedure?

15 A. No, during our part of the procedure, they were not obliged to do

16 that. They --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's again leading. The

18 question is leading.

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Well, thank you very much. I

20 don't know how to put that question. I just wanted to --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Try to be up to the point.

22 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Mr. Saric, given the fact that witnesses are interviewed like you

24 are being interviewed today after having taken a statement, are you aware

25 of the fact that our Penal Code contained a similar provision on the

Page 17371












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13 English transcripts.













Page 17372

1 testimony of a suspect? Was a suspect ever obliged or warned to tell the

2 truth after taking an oath?

3 A. In our procedure, this was not an obligation.

4 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't have any

5 further questions.

6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No additional questions,

7 Mr. President.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I have a few questions to put

9 to you.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] First of all, it seems that

12 there is an error in the transcript. Could you please tell us, what is

13 your date of birth exactly? Because in the transcript, it says "1996". I

14 believe that this is a mistake. Could you please tell us your year of

15 birth.

16 A. My son was born in 1996. I was born in 1966.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, then. Thank you for

18 this clarification.

19 In answering one question, you said that the military police of

20 the 3rd Corps was of the strength of 200 to 250 men. Is that a good

21 figure, or was that a mistake on your part?

22 A. At the beginning, the figure was anything between 200 and 250

23 men.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And how were they distributed,

25 these military policemen of the 3rd Corps? What was their distribution?

Page 17373

1 How were they spread?

2 A. As I've already told you, they were distributed across four

3 companies. There was also an anti-terrorist group, and the companies

4 numbered a similar number of men. And as our tasks and missions

5 increased, there was a need to increase the numbers of men. We became a

6 battalion, and when it became a battalion towards the end of the year,

7 according to my free estimates, it had about 400 men.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You yourself, you were a member

9 of what part? Of the Department for Services?

10 A. I was an inspector in the Department for Services of the

11 Battalion of the Military Police.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] For how long were you an

13 inspector and how many inspectors were there?

14 A. Between eight and ten.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said at the beginning

16 that -- of your testimony that before you became an inspector you worked

17 at an airport, and I believe that you were a member of the JNA. In order

18 to become a military policeman, you need a certain education. Were you

19 educated as a military policeman? What did you do at that airport that

20 you mentioned?

21 A. At the Zemunik airport, I was a technician for airplanes and

22 engines. I was a member of the Air Force. And when I joined -- and when

23 I joined the Territorial Defence Staff, there was a need for officers in

24 the military police unit and I and some other officers who had occupied

25 the various positions before that in the former JNA joined the military

Page 17374

1 police.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But how do you explain the fact

3 that a technician for engines could become a military policeman? Do you

4 have an explanation for that? How is -- how was that possible?

5 A. My explanation is the state of war. The few people who were

6 military policemen were not enough for the military battalion. There was

7 a much greater need. The battalion was replenished successively and the

8 organ of the security service drafted plans. There were seminars. There

9 were training courses. And that's how military policemen were trained,

10 and they could join the Military Police Battalion.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As an inspector, did you wear a

12 uniform of a military policeman? How were you dressed? Could you

13 describe your apparel. Did you have insignia? Did you have a badge? How

14 were you dressed?

15 A. Yes, I wore a uniform, and if the need arose, I would wear

16 civilian clothes. With permission of my superior commander, I was allowed

17 to wear civilian clothes when the need arose.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. So you could work in

19 civilian clothes, in plain clothes.

20 A. Yes, when it proved to be necessary and upon approval of the

21 superior command and especially the Centre of Military Security Services

22 via the battalion command. That is how the approval was handed down.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At your level of inspector,

24 were you aware of the existence of an individual who got hold of the

25 uniform of a military policeman and pretended to be a military policeman

Page 17375

1 but he wasn't one? Are you aware of such a phenomenon, of such cases?

2 A. I think that I said in my testimony that there were a large

3 number of people wearing different uniforms, and there were cases when

4 certain members would falsely pretend to be military policemen. There

5 were such cases.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as far as you know, were

7 there any -- was there any persecution or punishment of people who usurped

8 their positions and pretended to be something they were not?

9 A. I can't say exactly, but I think there were cases of false

10 presentations. And if they were found out, they were reported. Because

11 we had precise instructions from the corps command via the battalion

12 command that all persons should be treated in accordance with the law,

13 that there should be no exception from criminal prosecution.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I'll come to the

15 abduction of Totic. You told us that you took part, at least at the very

16 beginning, in the investigation. When your service learned that Totic was

17 abducted, what was Totic's status for your service? Was Totic treated as

18 a military man or as a civilian by you?

19 A. Zivko Totic was commander of a brigade. He was a soldier. The

20 Jure Francetic Brigade.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. So Totic was a military

22 man. And being a member of the military, who is the competent prosecutor?

23 The military or the civilian prosecutor? In your opinion.

24 A. I think the military prosecutor would be competent.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the military prosecutor.

Page 17376

1 And if Totic was kidnapped by civilians, who is competent? Is it

2 still the military prosecutor?

3 A. If they were civilians, then it would be the civilian prosecutor.

4 If the perpetrators were civilians ...

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. But at the beginning,

6 nobody knew who abducted him. It could have been military people or

7 civilians, when you conducted your investigations.

8 A. Yes. That is why the duty judge from the district military court

9 went on site.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I see. When Mr. Totic was

11 freed and exchanged, where were you?

12 A. In May 1993 - I think the Prosecutor said that this was in May

13 1993 - I was in Zenica. I was engaged in other military policework within

14 my competence.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you were not present at

16 the "release" of Mr. Totic.

17 A. No. No, I was not present.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Was there talk by people around

19 you about the way that he was released? Did you know who kidnapped him?

20 A. No, I didn't have any precise information about that. I can't

21 remember what exactly was going on. I just know that he was exchanged.

22 Now, who abducted him or kidnapped him, I really didn't know at that time.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the event that those who

24 released him were civilians, or liberated him, who would be competent to

25 continue the investigation?

Page 17377

1 A. If it was civilians, then it would be the Security Services

2 Centre.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] During your investigation, did

4 you learn that at the time of the kidnapping there was a civilian who was

5 killed? Did you know that or not? Apparently it was by accident that

6 this civilian was nearby where the shooting took place. Did you know that

7 or not?

8 A. As I was saying, I didn't go on site. I don't have precise

9 information. I know that the duty judge was there and he must have

10 established that on site, if that is what happened.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But, in fact, you can't help us

12 at all regarding the follow-up to this investigation about the kidnapping

13 and the killing of a civilian, so you have no information to provide?

14 A. I do not have any precise information. I was not in charge of

15 this. For four days I did collect information from the area. I didn't go

16 on site, and I can't give you any precise information.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] A final question for you: A

18 moment ago the Prosecution showed you a plan and asked you to mark the

19 places that you visited. The village of Arnauti was mentioned. I didn't

20 quite grasp whether you went to Arnauti and why this name appeared. Could

21 you tell us. You yourself, did you go to Arnauti or not?

22 A. I did not go to Arnauti, but all the villages were mentioned. I

23 know a mixed commission was working simultaneously visiting military

24 facilities around Zenica, including the village of Arnauti, but I didn't

25 go there. I didn't mention it.

Page 17378

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the joint commission, it

2 didn't ask for aid from you, from the Military Police Battalion of the 3rd

3 Corps? Did you assist them or not?

4 A. Yes, some members, as I have said, escorted the members of that

5 commission. They accompanied them.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you yourself, did you

7 accompany them? Did you contribute to this joint commission?

8 A. I did not. I had other assignments. My assignment was to

9 collect operative information from a particular area.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for the answers you

11 have given to the points I wished to clear up.

12 I shall give the floor once again to the Prosecution, if they

13 wish to take the floor after me, and then I shall give the floor to the

14 Defence.

15 Mr. Neuner.

16 MR. NEUNER: Just one question.

17 Further cross-examination by Mr. Neuner:

18 Q. You said a moment ago - this is page 78, line 14 - that there was

19 a mixed commission who was visiting military facilities surrounding

20 Zenica, including Arnauti. Did the commission only visit military

21 facilities or other facilities too?

22 A. I believe that in the village of Arnauti there are no special

23 military facilities. As far as I know - I didn't go there, but I know

24 from stories - you yourself said that they went there, and all the

25 facilities were visited in which they thought that a kidnapped person may

Page 17379

1 possibly be held.

2 Q. All facilities were visited in which the person was -- or "may

3 possibly be held," you just said. Are we talking about elementary

4 schools, about public buildings, or are we talking also about private

5 buildings, or religious buildings?

6 A. I wasn't a member of that commission, nor did I accompany that

7 commission, so I don't know exactly what they toured or what information

8 they collected.

9 MR. NEUNER: Thank you. The Prosecution has no further

10 questions.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence now.

12 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I don't have a

13 question, but I wish to note that on page 79, line 15 the witness

14 said "colleague Mahir was there, as you yourself said." And the name was

15 not included in the transcript. The name is "Mahir." It's a witness we

16 heard here a few days ago.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for that

18 specification.

19 The other Defence team?

20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No questions, Mr. President.

21 Thank you.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In that case, captain, your

23 hearing is completed. Thank you for coming to The Hague at the request of

24 the Defence to testify. You have answered all the questions --

25 Mr. Neuner, for the documents?

Page 17380

1 MR. NEUNER: It's only about the map. Before the witness is

2 released, if I may ask the witness to sign the map and add today's date.

3 It's the 14th of March. Thank you very much.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, I thought you had already

5 done that.

6 Put your name on the map and the date, the 14th of March, please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll give the map to the

9 registrar now.

10 As I was saying, thank you for testifying. On behalf of the

11 Chamber, best wishes for your return journey. And I'm going to ask the

12 usher to be kind enough to accompany you out of the courtroom.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

14 [The witness withdrew]

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Regarding the documents, I

16 shall give the floor to the Defence. I don't think they have any

17 documents.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. We would

19 like the map marked by the witness to be admitted as a Defence exhibit.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Neuner.

21 MR. NEUNER: No objection.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, can we have a

23 number.

24 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. It is

25 admitted as Defence Exhibit DH2080.

Page 17381












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 17382

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. Now the

2 Prosecution?

3 MR. NEUNER: We would like also to tender one map into evidence.

4 It's an excerpt I believe from P1. It's dealing with Zenica and its

5 surroundings, including Arnauti.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence?

7 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team?

9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have no

10 objection, but for the record we would like to say that the witness marked

11 the village of Arnauti but he made it clear that he did not visit that

12 village.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] That's precisely why I asked

14 him the question, and he confirmed that he didn't go there.

15 Mr. Registrar, can you give us a number, please.

16 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This

17 map is admitted as Prosecutor's Exhibit -- Prosecution Exhibit P958.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 For the schedule for the rest of the week, the Defence, please.

20 Do you wish us to go into private session?

21 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Can we go into

22 private session.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Registrar, private

24 session.

25 [Private session]

Page 17383











11 Pages 17383-17389 redacted. Private session.















Page 17390

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of

11 March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.