Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18254

1 Tuesday, 12 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

6 the case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Case

8 Number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir

9 Kubura.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the appearances

11 for the Prosecution, please.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning,

13 Your Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

14 Prosecution, Stefan Waespi and Daryl Mundis, assisted by our manager,

15 Andres Vatter.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have appearances for

17 Defence counsel, please.

18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. Good

19 morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina

20 Residovic, lead counsel, and Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel. Thank you.

21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Second Defence team. Good

22 morning, Your Honours. On behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin

23 Ibrisimovic, and our legal assistant, Nermin Mulalic.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Today on the 207th day of the

25 proceedings, I would like to greet everyone present, members of the

Page 18255

1 Prosecution, Defence counsel, the accused, and everyone else in and around

2 the courtroom.

3 I spent part of the night thinking about how we should proceed; I

4 know that the registrar did so, too. And I believe that the best way to

5 save time would be to start tomorrow at 9.00 with an ex parte hearing,

6 which would take 10 minutes. Then we'll have a half an hour break, which

7 means that the actual hearing should start at 9.45 tomorrow. The ex parte

8 hearing will then start at 9.00 tomorrow, and at quarter to 10.00 we can

9 start with the actual hearing. This is necessary because the tapes have

10 to be changed. We'll try and shorten the break in order to save time.

11 Without wasting more time, we'll now call the witness into the courtroom.

12 Defence counsel have said that they will need another 45 minutes

13 to complete their examination-in-chief. So I will be giving them the

14 floor in a minute.

15 [The witness entered court]

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. If you can

17 hear the interpretation, you may sit down and the examination-in-chief, so

18 I will be giving them the floor in a minute.

19 Good morning, sir. If you can hear the interpretation, you may

20 sit down, and the examination-in-chief will now continue.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I can hear you very

22 clearly.


24 [Witness answered through interpreter]

25 Examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic: [Continued]

Page 18256

1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Terzic, at the end of the day yesterday we

2 were discussing events in the village of Miletici.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, Mr. President, for

4 the sake of the transcript, I would first like to say that the document

5 that we showed in our list, number 9 in the bundle, in fact this is not a

6 new document; it's a document tendered by Mr. Hadzihasanovic's Defence, so

7 I apologise to my colleagues. It's not necessary to look at the document

8 again.

9 Q. Mr. Terzic, at the beginning of June 1993, where were you?

10 A. At the beginning of June 1993 I went to Travnik to have a rest. I

11 was on regular leave, but on the 6th or 7th the HVO engaged in combat

12 against the army. So as an operations officer I joined the unit and I

13 established contact immediately with the unit and I continued to perform

14 my duties as an operations officer during the conflict itself.

15 Q. Do you know where the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade was

16 engaged?

17 A. The 1st Battalion with a company, a small company, of 60 to 70

18 people who were on leave was then engaged. They were assigned a task by

19 the commander of the Operations Group, by General Alagic. They were

20 engaged in Hajdareve Njive. That was the first task. They had to carry

21 out because in the immediate vicinity of the barracks -- that was in the

22 immediate vicinity of the barracks.

23 Q. Where is Hajdareve Njive --

24 A. Hajdareve Njive is 3 to 400 metres as the crow flies from the --

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name.

Page 18257

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In front of the building where the

2 building of the 1st Battalion was located.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

4 Q. Is that 3 or 400 metres from Travnik?

5 A. It's in Travnik, above where the unit was located or rather where

6 the command of the 1st Battalion was located. It's as the crow flies, as

7 I have said. And if you go by road it's further away.

8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

9 since not everything has been entered in the transcript, if I have

10 understood you correctly, it's 3 to 400 metres as the crow flies from the

11 town of Travnik.

12 A. From the town of Travnik, but it's on a slope. It is 3 to 400

13 metres away in front of the building on the hill of Bukovica, halfway up

14 the Bukovica hill. And to the right there is a place called Gradac or

15 small hill called Gradac.

16 Q. Mr. Terzic, could you have a look at a document in the bundle of

17 documents, the document is document 16, document number 17, and document

18 number 18.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

20 it's document DK19.

21 Q. Could you please have a look at item 2, our forces.

22 A. Could you please repeat that.

23 Q. Could you have a look at item 2, where it says "our forces," if

24 you have found that in the document. Document number 16.

25 A. "Units of the 17th Glorious Mountain Brigade." Is that what

Page 18258

1 you're referring to?

2 Q. Further down below.

3 A. "The 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade is engaged

4 in Hajdareve Njive, linking with itself and covering with" -- I apologise.

5 "The 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade is engaged in the

6 direction towards Hajdareve Njive, linking it to itself and covering it

7 with its mortars. Units of the territorial structure are linked in the

8 17th glorious Mountain Brigade and are independently acting in the village

9 of Bojna."

10 Q. It's not necessary to continue. If -- when you're reading could

11 you read more slowly for the sake of the interpretation.

12 Could you have a look at document 17, it's a new document. Is

13 this a report on the activities of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim

14 Brigade in Hajdareve Njive?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Could you have a look at the following document,

17 document number 18. It's document P465. A combat report from the

18 Bosanska Krajina OG. Could you just have a look at the date. It's the

19 8th of June, 1993. Please just have a look at the last sentence in the

20 last paragraph.

21 A. The 1st Battalion in the 7th Muslim Brigade is attacking the

22 Hajdareve Njive feature and is engaged in the direction of Bukovica.

23 Q. Could you please have a look at the beginning of the report where

24 it says "the command of the OG."

25 A. "The command of the Bosanska Krajina OG, the 8th of June, 1993, at

Page 18259

1 1900 hours, regular operations report."

2 Q. Thank you very much. It means that it was drafted at 1900 hours.

3 Is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Terzic, yesterday and today we have discussed the

6 events in Miletici and in Maline, or rather the events that occurred at

7 the beginning of June 1993. Did you and the brigade or the battalion ever

8 receive a request for the unit to report its superior command to someone

9 else about the events in Miletici and Maline in June 1993?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Terzic, I have a few questions for you about

12 soldiers, members of the 7th Brigade. Were the soldiers of the 7th Muslim

13 Brigade of the ABiH, did they have documents on them which indicated

14 whether they were army members or not?

15 A. The members of the 7th Muslim had to have orders on them

16 regulating the movement of the members of the 7th Muslim Brigade; this was

17 to be in accordance with the corps orders, according to which members of a

18 unit could circulate when on leave and these orders also mentioned how

19 they should carry out their tasks. When on leave they had to have

20 documents on them and authorisation to be on leave. They also had to

21 leave their weapons.

22 Q. Where?

23 A. In the barracks.

24 Q. Please have a look at the documents number 6 and 7 in the bundle.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

Page 18260

1 these documents are new documents, Mr. President.

2 Q. I apologise. Documents 5 and 6 are the ones I'm referring to.

3 When you've seen the -- when you've had a look at the documents, tell me

4 whether this is what you were just referring to in response to my

5 question.

6 A. "On the basis of an order from the command of the 3rd Corps;

7 strictly confidential" --

8 Q. Could you read through that slowly.

9 A. "Pursuant to an order of the command of 3rd Corps; strictly

10 confidential; number 01419/3; dated the 17th of February, 1993."

11 Q. Mr. Terzic, allow me to interrupt you. Could you just read out

12 item 1.

13 A. "Order. Each member of our brigade when wearing his uniform has

14 to have appropriate documents with him, military ID, and displaying his

15 evidence of membership in the unit."

16 Q. Thank you. Please have a look at document number 6, item 1.

17 A. "Order. All soldiers who are not on duty are forbidden to carry

18 weapons outside the unit, not even in the case of increased tension

19 because if the soldier goes home on leave the unit is obliged to provide

20 him with an escort."

21 Q. Thank you. Mr. Terzic, do you know Mr. Kubura?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In 1993 do you know what Mr. Kubura was?

24 A. The Chief of Staff, the Chief of Staff in the brigade. When he

25 arrived there and perhaps at the end of August or the beginning of

Page 18261

1 September he was appointed as brigade commander.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we only have one

4 more proposal to make. Could this witness and everyone else be shown the

5 following video: P482 is the exhibit number. And after having shown the

6 video, we will have completed our examination-in-chief.

7 [Videotape played]

8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation].

9 Q. I've shown this video to you in the course of the proofing. I

10 only have one question. Could you see whether anyone from the command of

11 the 7th Muslim Brigade or any member of the 7th Muslim Brigade was in the

12 video?

13 A. No one was in the video.

14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This

15 completes our examination-in-chief. I'd just like to ask the witness to

16 sign and date the map he was shown yesterday. Thank you.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, could you put your name and

18 last name on the map that you have next to you. Could you sign it and

19 date it. The date today is the 12th of April, 2005.

20 Right then. I would like to turn to the Prosecution. Do you have

21 any objections to this map being tendered?

22 MR. MUNDIS: No objections.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we have the

24 number.

25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. So it

Page 18262

1 is Defence document DK28. Thank you, sir.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I might, for the record, if we

3 could have an indication as to whether the Hadzihasanovic Defence team has

4 any objections to that map being admitted into evidence.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Since they were not asking

6 for the floor, I thought they had nothing to say. You have the floor,

7 Madam.

8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to stress we

9 have no objections, but silence is not normally recorded in the

10 transcript. So it is very helpful of my colleague to remind us that we

11 should say this out loud.

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we've had a

13 couple of new documents. I don't know whether we should sort it out now

14 or when we are finished with the witness.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll see about that later after

16 the cross-examination. I'd like to give the floor to the Prosecution now

17 for the cross-examination of this floor -- unless, of course -- since

18 again you did not say anything. Do you have any questions now?

19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Not at this stage. Thank you,

20 Mr. President.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:

24 Q. Good morning, Witness. My name is Daryl -- my name is Daryl

25 Mundis and along with my colleagues here this morning we represent the

Page 18263

1 Prosecution in this case. I have a few questions for you, sir, but before

2 I start let me assure you that it is not in any way my intention to

3 confuse you. And I would ask you, sir, if you don't understand any of my

4 questions to simply inform me of that and I will rephrase the questions so

5 that you do understand it. Is that clear, sir?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Let's -- let's go back, sir, and start a little bit at the

8 beginning. You told us that you were part of the Muslim forces in

9 Travnik. Can you tell us, sir, when you first joined that formation.

10 A. For the first time I joined the ranks on the 10th of May, 1992,

11 when people were registered, and they were registered officially, as a

12 unit in the BH army.

13 Q. So I take it then, sir, that you joined the Muslim forces in

14 Travnik at the time that unit was created?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. And, sir, what position, if any, did you hold within that unit and

17 what rank, if any, did you hold in May 1992 when you joined that unit?

18 A. At that stage there were no ranks in the army. I was a

19 noncommissioned officer in the former JNA, and so I was an officer there.

20 And I had spent at an officers' school for noncommissioned officers at

21 Bileca for six months.

22 Q. Did there come a time, sir, when you acquired some type of rank?

23 And I'm again specifically referring to the time when you were with the

24 Muslim forces in Travnik.

25 A. No. There were no ranks there.

Page 18264

1 Q. And, sir, what function or what role, if any, did you play within

2 that unit, the Muslim forces in Travnik?

3 A. The technical role was of operative nature, to organise the

4 structure and the attachments and to somehow make it look like an army

5 unit, to organise the structure of the unit in order to make it

6 functional. Preparations -- the induction of the unit of a purely

7 technical nature in order to indicate who was in what unit, what company,

8 what detachment. So I was a kind of instructor there, somebody who had

9 gone to this officers' school, and as somebody who was familiar with the

10 structure of the military organisation I was asked to help out there.

11 Q. And I believe you told us yesterday, sir, that that unit ceased to

12 exist once the brigades of the 3rd Corps were formed approximately in

13 mid-November 1992. Is that what you told us yesterday?

14 A. Yes, yes.

15 Q. Now, sir, at any point in time between the 10th of May, 1992, when

16 you joined the Muslim forces and when that unit ceased to exist sometime

17 in mid-November 1992, did you at any point in time during that period

18 obtain or receive any type of rank?

19 A. No. At that stage we did not have any ranks as yet. We had no

20 officers, et cetera. This was a rank that I had been given before, prior

21 to the war, as a reserve officer in the armed forces of the former

22 Yugoslavia as a reserve captain of the foot soldiers -- the ground

23 forces --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, the interpreter made a mistake.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Infantry. And I had gone to this

Page 18265

1 officer's school at Bileca.


3 Q. Sir, I see that you still have the bundle of Defence documents

4 next to you. Could you please turn to the document under tab 2, which for

5 the record is P695. If you could look at tab 2; you were shown this

6 document yesterday.

7 Now, sir, the entry under number 4 on this list on the first page,

8 would that in fact be you, sir?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And I see, sir, in the far right column a -- this document lists

11 you as being a captain?

12 A. I was a captain on the basis of the reserve forces of the former

13 Yugoslavia because I had attended the reserve officers' school at Bileca

14 in 1983 when they had courses there. It was between six and seven months,

15 and then we did exercises, et cetera. Once you finish that school, you

16 would be the 2nd Lieutenant. And then after -- at each separate exercise

17 you would be promoted in rank.

18 Q. And, sir, of the 80 names that are listed on this document you

19 told us yesterday that some of these people, and this is on page 71, some

20 of them entered the 7th Muslim Brigade, whereas the others probably

21 entered the 306th, the 325th, the 17th, and some other brigades that

22 existed at that time in that area. Do you know of the 80 names that are

23 on this list, P695, how many of those people joined the 7th Muslim

24 Mountain Brigade after it was established in November 1992?

25 A. I can't tell you exactly, between 60 -- 40 and 60 per cent, 50 per

Page 18266

1 cent, I don't know. I suppose you can look into the documents of the 1st

2 Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade. You can find out exactly, but I

3 think on average 50 to 60 per cent and the rest went to other units when

4 they were being formed. But nobody could go anywhere until they were

5 mobilised, then told to do so.

6 Q. And, sir, which unit or what organisation, what structure, would

7 have mobilised these people and told them which unit to go to?

8 A. The mobilisation went through the defence secretariat of the

9 municipality of Travnik and other municipal secretariats which was

10 involved in that. And then, for example, if there was a recruiter

11 expressing a wish in that respect, they would -- first of all, their names

12 would be taken and then they would be channeled to relevant units.

13 Q. Now, sir, you were shown at the very beginning of your testimony

14 yesterday a videotape from August of 1992. Do you remember watching that

15 videotape?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Which, again for the record, is Prosecution Exhibit P762. And you

18 told us that you recognised yourself on that videotape?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. And you told us, sir, that that was an oath, that the scene

21 depicted on that videotape was an oath. And this is on page 69 and 70.

22 You said: "An oath taken by every unit, a traditional one, ordered and

23 prescribed for every single unit of the BH army. There was the commander

24 of the unit, and then we had religious and political leaders of the

25 municipality of Travnik."

Page 18267

1 Can I ask you, sir, which religious and political leaders were

2 present on that day and are visible in the videotape?

3 A. I believe that on that day, and I believe I noticed it yesterday,

4 there was a commander -- the commander of my unit. So I saw Muftija

5 Tradjki [phoen] and then I saw quite a few people from the population and

6 then people who were prominent economic leaders. For example, there was

7 a -- the manager of a clothing factory. They had about 7.000 staff at the

8 time, and I saw some other people. And I think that invitations had been

9 extended to all those who were meant to attend, and I don't know whether

10 because of their own engagements they all had time to attend. As to

11 attendance and all that, I don't really know because at the time there

12 were quite a few units which had already become operational, which were

13 already out in the field, or were involved in preparations because combat

14 activities were underway.

15 Q. Sir, if I were to show you again that five-minute video clip in

16 its entirety, would you be in a position to identify the people that

17 you've told us you recognised or knew?

18 A. Yes.

19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with your leave I would again ask that

20 the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 762, that is about a five or

21 five-and-a-half minute shown yesterday.

22 Q. And, Witness, as we're preparing that video and as the usher

23 perhaps puts your monitor on the right setting, I would ask you that we

24 take a slightly different course of action from was taken by my learned

25 colleagues yesterday; that is, as you watch the videotape when you see

Page 18268

1 persons or a person that you know or recognise, including yourself, if you

2 will simply tell us to stop and we will pause the videotape so that you

3 can describe for us who it is that you're identifying. Do you understand

4 that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Let me also tell you before we do this, sir, that as the videotape

7 pauses it will get even more grainy and difficult to see than it already

8 is, but we'll try to do the best with what we have. So, sir, if at any

9 point you see someone that you know or recognise, just tell us to stop and

10 we'll pause the videotape, and I'll ask you to describe the person that

11 you've identified.

12 [Videotape played]

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can stop it now perhaps. This

14 is the commander of the unit in front of all of us. His name is Emir

15 Redzic called Tara. And then to his left, Ahmed Adilovic and PDVP.


17 Q. Let me ask you, sir, when you say the commander of the unit, Emir

18 Redzic, is he the person holding the megaphone in this video?

19 A. Ahmed Adilovic and PDVP and VP, and there is a person holding the

20 microphone there.

21 Q. Do you know who the person is holding the microphone or the

22 megaphone?

23 A. Ahmed Adilovic.

24 Q. And, sir, where in this picture or on this video did you see

25 Mr. Redzic?

Page 18269

1 A. To the left. Or if we look to the left there is Emir Redzic who

2 was the then-commander of the Muslim forces detachment. I think that he

3 would sign his name as a lieutenant colonel, but he was an active member

4 of the armed forces and he had gone to the military academy.

5 Q. Now, sir, you've also given us in the English transcript two

6 abbreviations. I believe you said PDVP and VP. Can you please tell the

7 Trial Chamber what those acronyms stand for?

8 A. That's the information, propaganda, and religious affairs, in

9 charge of information, propaganda, and religious affairs.

10 Q. And that was the position that Mr. Adilovic?

11 A. Mr. Adilovic.

12 Q. Okay.

13 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please continue with the videotape.

14 [Videotape played]

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are two fighters who were

16 members of this unit. I think Ravka Rajko [phoen], and I can't remember

17 the name of the other one.

18 MR. MUNDIS: Okay. We can continue, please.

19 [Videotape played]

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The photographer wearing a yellow

21 T-shirt, Enver Palalic.


23 Q. And was he with the media, sir, or what was his function?

24 A. Most probably, yes.

25 [Videotape played]

Page 18270

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander, Emir Redzic is in

2 front of us.

3 [Videotape played]

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mufti of Travnik is here. You

5 can see him here.


7 Q. And, sir, what is the mufti of Travnik wearing, what type of

8 clothing?

9 A. He's wearing this solemn religious robes, either official or

10 solemn or something. I'm not really familiar with that sort of jargon.

11 Q. It would be fair to say that he's the individual in the white

12 robes with the white head covering. Would that be correct?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. And his name is Mufti Abdibegovic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Sir, the person holding the megaphone, do you know who that is?

17 A. No, and I wasn't interested either.

18 [Videotape played]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here again we can see Ahmet Adilovic

20 and Emir Redzic standing behind the Mufti of Travnik.

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And there, too.

23 [Videotape played]

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's Mehmed Corhodzic who at the

25 time was the commander of base 3 logistical -- logistics base 3 for the

Page 18271

1 provisions to the Municipal Staff of Territorial Defence, but he was also

2 the director or the managing director of the clothing factory at Travnik.

3 [Videotape played]


5 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, sir. Let me ask you a couple of

6 follow-up questions. When we stopped the videotape you told us that you

7 saw the Mufti of Travnik, and I asked you about the person standing next

8 to him holding the megaphone. And you told us that you didn't know who

9 that person was and I'm quoting on page 17, line 9: "I wasn't interested

10 either."

11 Can you tell us why you weren't interested in who this person was?

12 A. I'm a professional there, and since I was in a position that I had

13 to carry out a technical task or finish up on a job, I mean what was my

14 concern was for me to be able to complete the task that had been entrusted

15 to me that I was working on at the time. So I was not particularly

16 concerned with all those things. There were probably who were in charge

17 of protocol and of all the events that had taken place during the day,

18 people who were in charge of information, propaganda, and all that.

19 Q. Was the person that was visible next to the Mufti one of the

20 religious or political leaders of the municipality of Travnik who was

21 attending this function?

22 A. The person standing next to the mufti, yes. No.

23 Q. Okay. It's a bit unclear from the transcript, sir. Let me ask

24 the question again. The person visible in the video next to the mufti,

25 was he one of the religious or political leaders of the municipality of

Page 18272

1 Travnik who was attending this function?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Do you have any knowledge, sir, as to why this person was invited

4 to attend this function and to address the Muslim forces in Travnik on

5 this day in August 1992?

6 A. I don't know. I wasn't responsible for such things, so I don't

7 know.

8 Q. Let me move on to a slightly different topic or a different topic.

9 Once the 7th Muslim Brigade was established in November 1992, you told us

10 that you joined that unit. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And, sir, what was your function in the 7th Muslim Mountain

13 Brigade at the time you joined that unit?

14 A. When I joined the 7th Muslim, I was an officer for operations and

15 training. This is an establishment post.

16 Q. And, sir, based on the description that you told us earlier this

17 morning of your role within the Muslim forces in Travnik, would it be fair

18 to say that what you were doing for the Muslim forces in Travnik also

19 involved operations and training?

20 A. Well, preparing something, technically organising something, means

21 dividing tasks, specifying tasks assigned, et cetera. The commander

22 issues tasks, and in the course of a plan for activity that is drafted in

23 the course of a day, a week, or a month, you carry out the tasks planned

24 by the commander and you carry them out on the basis of orders from your

25 superiors.

Page 18273

1 Q. And, sir, did your responsibilities during the time period you

2 were with the Muslim forces in Travnik include operations and training of

3 that unit in order to get them ready for combat?

4 A. If there was a plan issued by the commander and a period for

5 preparation had been specified, a period for training, or if troops were

6 to be trained in the use of weapons then these preparations would be

7 carried out in accordance with the plan issued by the commander. The

8 commander would issue plans that had to be carried out.

9 Q. Sir, at any point in time from May 1992 through November 1992 when

10 you were with the Muslim forces in Travnik, were you assisted in any of

11 these -- in carrying out any of these plans or training by foreigners, by

12 members of the Mujahedin?

13 A. I don't know. I don't know. I couldn't answer that question. I

14 wasn't familiar with those tasks. I don't know. There's nothing I could

15 say. We provide -- we obtained regular supplies from the logistics base

16 in the Travnik Municipal Staff.

17 Q. During the time period from the summer of 1992 through November of

18 1992, did you have any personal communication or involvement with any of

19 the foreign fighters who came into Bosnia who was later known as the

20 Mujahedin?

21 A. Perhaps I would come across them in town. Perhaps I had some form

22 of contact with them, quite by chance, but nothing of any substance.

23 Q. Were you aware, sir, at any point in time while you were with the

24 Muslim forces in Travnik whether any soldiers from the Muslim forces in

25 Travnik received any type of training from these foreign fighters who were

Page 18274

1 later known as the Mujahedin?

2 A. No, no. That wasn't necessary because most of the men from the --

3 most of us were from the former army. We completed our military service,

4 and the others, commanders of detachments, platoons, et cetera, would

5 train their own troops.

6 Q. Sir, do you -- have you ever heard at any point in time of the

7 name of one of the foreigners -- foreign fighters who was in Central

8 Bosnia by the name of Abdul Aziz?

9 A. No. Perhaps I heard this name quite by chance, but not really.

10 Q. Let's return now to the time period after November 1992 when the

11 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade was established. You told us, sir, that

12 initially your responsibilities were for operations and training within

13 the brigade. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes. Officer for operations and training, well that means that

15 you have to train units according to the plans of the brigade and the

16 corps.

17 Q. Now, at this point in time, sir, in November, mid-November 1992,

18 where was your office, or where did you physically go at this point in

19 time to conduct your military duties?

20 A. In November when the 7th Muslim was established by an order

21 issued, I went to Zenica where the command was located. I was given an

22 office where the Brigade Staff was located. And in the staff I assumed

23 the duties of an officer for operations and training.

24 Q. And, sir, how long did you remain in that post holding the duties

25 responsible for operations and training within the 7th Muslim Mountain

Page 18275

1 Brigade?

2 A. I remained in that post of an officer for operations and training

3 up until the 14th of February, 1994, when I became assistant commander for

4 logistics in the -- in a light --

5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name of the

6 unit.


8 Q. Sir, for the record, could you please repeat the unit that you

9 joined after the 14th of February, 1994.

10 A. On the 14th of February, 1994, I joined the 37th Light Muslim

11 Liberation Brigade as assistant commander for logistics.

12 Q. Sir, at any point in time from the middle of November 1992 until

13 the 14th of February, 1994, when you joined the 37th Light Muslim

14 Liberation Brigade, did you serve as the commander of a battalion within

15 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

16 A. No. I didn't have such duties, but the task of the Chief of

17 Staff, when you are told to go to a zone of responsibility and to carry

18 out tasks that had to be carried out at the time, well, you'd receive a

19 field task. You would have to go to the forward command post and you

20 would have to go to the zone of responsibility of your brigade, the zone

21 of responsibility assigned to you by the corps. We had a zone of

22 responsibility, as I said yesterday, and I used the map to show you the

23 zone that was from Kazici to elevation 1260 and we had that zone of

24 responsibility, the 7th Muslim Brigade.

25 Q. But you're telling us, sir, that at not point in time were you the

Page 18276

1 commander of a battalion within the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

2 A. No, I wasn't.

3 Q. And during this period from mid-November 1992 through 14 February

4 1994 your duty post remained in the headquarters of the 7th Muslim

5 Mountain Brigade in Zenica?

6 A. Yes. But if the unit wasn't assigned combat tasks then the staff

7 would be moved, the unit would be moved, and then tasks would be carried

8 out later perhaps over a period of 20 days or a month, it depended. In

9 the meantime troops would be on leave, they would go home, et cetera.

10 Q. Okay. But I just want to make sure, sir, that I understand what

11 you'll telling us, and that is that throughout the period from

12 mid-November 1992 until the 14th of February, 1994, you were assigned to

13 the staff of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Now, sir, you were asked a few questions earlier this morning

16 about the accused, Brigadier Kubura, and you told us sometime in the

17 August or beginning of September 1993 he was assigned responsibilities of

18 commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. Is that correct?

19 A. There's an order which states when he was appointed as commander.

20 So I can't be precise. This is not my field. I don't know when he was

21 promoted and appointed as commander. I think there is an order. I think

22 that's the period concerned, but you should refer to the order in which he

23 was appointed as commander.

24 Q. And, sir, prior to that time period when Brigadier Kubura was

25 assigned or appointed as commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade,

Page 18277

1 what position did he hold?

2 A. Assistant -- a Chief of Staff of the 7th Muslim Brigade. He was

3 the Chief of Staff of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

4 Q. And at the same time he was also the deputy commander of the 7th

5 Muslim Mountain Brigade, wasn't he?

6 A. When the commander was absent or prevented from performing his

7 duties, he would replace the commander, but he wasn't the commander. When

8 the commander leaves, he would appoint or issue an order stating who would

9 act as commander on his behalf during his absence.

10 Q. Now, sir, at the time you joined the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade

11 in mid-November 1992, who was the commander of that brigade?

12 A. Asim Koricic. I think it was Asim Koricic at the time, but I

13 think you have orders stating which individuals are being appointed as

14 commanders. A lot of time has passed since then, so I can't remember

15 everything.

16 Q. And how long, sir, did Asim Koricic remain the commander of the

17 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

18 A. Right up until the point in time when Brigadier Kubura was

19 appointed to that post in an official document.

20 Q. And, sir, let me ask you this: When was the last time you

21 personally saw or spoke with Asim Koricic?

22 A. You mean recently or at that time? Well, let's say a year ago if

23 we're talking about the year 2004. We happen to bump into each other, so

24 we had a chat.

25 Q. Let me ask you, sir, about the time period from mid-November 1992

Page 18278

1 until 14 February 1994 when you left the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.

2 During that time period -- well, let's be more specific. From the time

3 you joined the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade in mid-November 1992 until the

4 time Brigadier Kubura was appointed commander of that brigade, how

5 frequently did you see Mr. Koricic?

6 A. Up until the time he went abroad. I wouldn't know whether that

7 was January, February, or March, but I know for sure that it wasn't after

8 March or April. He wasn't in the brigade then or I didn't meet him.

9 Since my duties did not have to do with the commander that had to do with

10 the Chief of Staff and the Chiefs of Staffs of other services, I heard

11 that he went abroad. I had heard that he went abroad and that there was

12 only the Chief of Staff, Brigadier Amir Kubura.

13 Q. So you're telling us, sir, that sometime in the first few months

14 of 1993, Commander Koricic went abroad. Is that what you're telling us?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. And from the time period that he went abroad until commander --

17 until Brigadier Kubura was appointed as the commander, did you have or did

18 you receive any communications or any orders or any assignments from

19 Mr. Koricic?

20 A. No, no.

21 Q. Did you, sir, as the person responsible for operations and

22 training within that brigade know where Mr. Koricic was?

23 A. I didn't know for sure whether it was -- whether he was in

24 Austria, Germany, or Switzerland, but I knew he was abroad. Given all the

25 duties I had to perform, I didn't try to find out much about this.

Page 18279

1 Q. Sir, during the time period after the first few months of 1993

2 when Mr. Koricic went abroad, did he leave you or anyone in the command

3 with a forwarding address or a telephone number where he should be

4 contacted to carry out his duties as commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain

5 Brigade?

6 A. No. He didn't leave any contact details for me, and that wasn't

7 necessary because I was far below the rank of a commander.

8 Q. And during this time period, sir, following Mr. Koricic's trip

9 abroad until Mr. Kubura was appointed as the commander of the 7th Muslim

10 Mountain Brigade, who was in charge? Who commanded the 7th Muslim

11 Mountain Brigade?

12 A. The Chief of Staff according to the post he was assigned to, but

13 he had assistant commanders who covered various fields at the time.

14 Q. And, sir, when you say the Chief of Staff you're referring to

15 Brigadier Kubura. Is that right?

16 A. Yes, I'm referring to Brigadier Kubura.

17 Q. And just so that we're clear then, sir, once Mr. Koricic went

18 abroad sometime between January and April 1993 until his formal

19 appointment in August or September 1993, Amir Kubura commanded the 7th

20 Muslim Mountain Brigade?

21 A. In terms of the duties he had as Chief of Staff, he replaced the

22 commander. He assigned tasks and issued instructions together with his

23 assistant commanders.

24 Q. Let me ask you now, sir, a couple of questions concerning Ramo

25 Durmis. The Defence asked you some questions about Ramo Durmis and you

Page 18280

1 told us that -- let me start a different way. You told us that at some

2 point in time that Mr. Durmis left the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. Is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And again, sir, to the best of your recollection, when did Ramo

6 Durmis leave the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

7 A. Ramo Durmis left perhaps at the beginning of January 1993 after

8 the action in Visegrad [as interpreted] on the 28th of December, 1992.

9 When this action came to an end, we had a number of dead and wounded men.

10 And at the beginning of January, Ramo Durmis and some of his soldiers left

11 the 7th Muslim Brigade.

12 Q. Now, sir, it says in the English transcript at page 27, line 2 "it

13 was after the action in Visegrad." I believe that was actually Visoko.

14 Is that correct?

15 A. In Visoko, Visoko.

16 Q. Now, what is the basis, sir, for you telling us that Mr. Durmis

17 and some of his soldiers left the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade at the

18 beginning of January 1993?

19 A. Yesterday I had a look at a number of documents and reference was

20 made to him leaving the unit in January. This was a revolt. He showed

21 his characteristic stubbornness. He left the 7th Muslim Brigade and took

22 those young men with him, and he didn't return to the 7th Muslim because

23 at the time he was the commander of the 1st Company. He accused others of

24 significant losses in Visegrad and Visoko, and there was a revolt that he

25 couldn't control and that is why he left the 7th Muslim Brigade.

Page 18281

1 Q. Let me ask you, sir, you told us that: "He showed his

2 characteristic stubbornness."

3 Did you know Ramo Durmis prior to the war in Bosnia?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Were you aware, sir, that in the middle of April 1993 the 1st

6 Company of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade and its

7 commander, Ramo Durmis, were specifically cited by the commander of the

8 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, they were awarded?

9 A. I heard about that proposal, a result of the battle at the

10 battlefield in Visoko -- rather the Visegrad elevation. I heard that a

11 proposal had been made for his efforts, but I don't know when he was given

12 this award.

13 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask, Mr. President, with the assistance of

14 the usher and the registrar that the witness with shown Prosecution

15 Exhibit P727.

16 Perhaps if that document could be put on the ELMO. Unfortunately

17 due to time constraints, Mr. President, we weren't able to make sufficient

18 copies, but I would ask that it be put onto the ELMO so everybody can take

19 a look at it. I would specifically ask -- well, first of all, if the

20 witness can take a look at the document so he can see what it is we're

21 asking him to look at.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Given the efforts and results

23 obtained in battle on Allah's way and the unselfish dedication shown when

24 carrying out combat operations, and given the fact that his patriotic

25 duties have been performed in our Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

Page 18282












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18283

1 in order to commemorate the anniversary of the day of the Army of the

2 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, I hereby order that the following

3 stimulative measures be taken. An award in the form of money is to be

4 granted to the following members of the 7th Muslim Brigade: Serif

5 Patkovic, Azar Bektas, Ramiz Savic, Nusret Ibricic, Suad Jusovic" --


7 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you to go on this document to section 4 on

8 that page. And if we look under Roman numeral IV, small letter "b," and

9 under that the first bullet point. Do you see the reference there to the

10 1st Company of the 1st Battalion and its commander Ramo Durmis?

11 A. Yes, I can see that.

12 Q. And do you see that this document was in fact signed? Perhaps if

13 the --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the document is actually signed by Brigadier Kubura, is it

16 not?

17 A. That's possible. I don't know.

18 Q. Let me turn, sir, in the final few moments that I have remaining

19 to another document that's in the bundle of documents that the Defence

20 provided you with. I would ask you, sir, if you could turn in that bundle

21 of documents to tab 14. There are a number of documents or a number of

22 pages behind tab 14, and I'm specifically interested in the second page of

23 this document, which for the record I believe is P474.

24 Was this a document, sir, that was drafted by yourself or prepared

25 for your approval by a member of your staff?

Page 18284

1 A. I would like to go back to the first document. This is a document

2 that I drafted; it's my operations report to the brigade and the Bosnian

3 Krajina OG. It's been signed and I stand by this document. I don't stand

4 by the other document because there is no signature. I can see that the

5 address of the person it was forwarded to is not -- has not been written

6 down and it's not the typical type of military document you usually see.

7 This document has a date, 336/93, and has a protocol number, the name of

8 the unit and number. I can stand by the first document, the one that

9 precedes this one. But the second document is not a document that I

10 drafted. I didn't sign it. It's not my document.

11 Q. All right. Well, let me ask you this then, sir: Were you aware

12 at any point in time in the first six months of 1993 whether there were

13 any units of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade in the

14 area of Mehurici?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Thank you, sir.

17 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I will now ask

19 Defence counsel whether they have any re-examination for this witness.

20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

21 only have a few additional questions. I don't know whether this is the

22 appropriate time or whether we should commence after the break.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please go ahead -- or in fact

24 you would prefer to continue after the break. In that case, it is 10.25.

25 We'll now have our break and we will resume at about 10 to 11.00.

Page 18285

1 --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.

2 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the Defence has the floor.

4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

5 have just a couple of questions and I would like for the document that my

6 colleague has shown to the witness, P727, to be shown again -- to be shown

7 to the witness again.

8 Re-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Terzic, before the break when you were

10 answering the questions by my colleague you said that the proposal for an

11 award when he mentioned the name of Ramo Durmis you said that it was in

12 connection with what was taking place in the course of the battle for

13 Visegrad and Visoko. That battle was at what time?

14 A. On the 28th of December, 1992.

15 Q. Was that proposal for an award and that award referred to

16 something that happened in the past or in 1993 or at that time?

17 A. The praise and the awards were referred to the battle which took

18 place on the 28th of December and the results were outstanding, and it was

19 a huge success for the entire unit, I mean these are the commanders of the

20 unit that was engaged there in the area of Visegrad, the place called

21 Visoko in 1992.

22 Q. I would just like you to look at document 1 in items 1, 2, and 3.

23 You have references to awards and praises for individuals?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. In item 4 it says: "I praise the following units ..." Does point

Page 18286

1 4 refer to individuals or units within the 7th Brigade?

2 A. Item 4: "I praise the following units from the Battalion, the 7th

3 Muslim Battalion the rank of Battalion."

4 In point B the rank of company, the 1st Company of the 1st

5 Battalion, and the company commander is Durmis Ramo.

6 Q. Could I ask you something else and my colleague has asked you the

7 same question as well. When Mr. Kubura was acting as commander in the

8 period of time we have been referring to, did you address him as Chief of

9 Staff or commander?

10 A. Chief, sir.

11 Q. And another question. Do you know the exact date when Mr. Koricic

12 left the 7th Muslim Brigade?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions, sir.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence lawyers?

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we've already had

17 cross-examination and we have no questions now. If we do, it will be

18 after the Judges' questions.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned I have

20 some clarification points.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like you to confirm

23 clearly that when you were at the 7th Brigade your job was to deal with

24 the structure and the formation within the Chief of Staff. Was that your

25 official job within the 7th Brigade?

Page 18287

1 A. Yes, yes, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you take a look at the

3 document number 17 in this binder. It is dated the 6th of June, 1993. It

4 is a combat report in fact. Could you tell me who signed this document.

5 A. This doesn't look like my signature.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's not your signature?

7 A. No. I did draft the report, but it may well happen that somebody

8 else has signed it because I was not allowed to sign as a battalion

9 commander because I was not even an acting battalion commander or a

10 commander of a unit in the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying that you did have

12 a draft combat report. It was not you who typed it up?

13 A. No.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, is it the person who

15 actually typed it up that should be signed as battalion commander?

16 A. I don't know, believe me. It was up to me to give a summary of

17 events during the day, to draw up a report for our superiors so they would

18 be informed about what we had been doing on any given day.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The 6th of June -- well, who was

20 the battalion commander on that day?

21 A. I think that at that time you will have to look up -- look it up

22 in the personal records. I think Zubaca Ahmed or somebody else. You will

23 have to check it out in the documents belonging to the unit.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. Since we're dealing

25 with the documents now, could you look at document number 2. In document

Page 18288

1 number 2 in the B/C/S version, not the English version but the B/C/S

2 version, next to your name there is a reference indicating your date of

3 birth, the rank of captain, and a number, 31102. What does it correspond

4 to, that number?

5 A. Military experts will be able to tell you that this is an infantry

6 reference, the type of -- the type of training the got at the reserve

7 officers' school at Bileca in the former Yugoslavia. The -- an infantry

8 captain, so I think this signifies infantry, but military experts can shed

9 more light on it. But this is a number for the military files.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document that you have in

11 front of you on page 1 it says the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

12 the armed forces and the Muslim forces of Travnik. As far as you're

13 concerned, is this a military document?

14 A. Yes, it is entirely in the form of a military document.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Within the armed forces of

16 Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992 and 1993 - but here we're talking about

17 15th of September 1992 - well, what was the official language of the armed

18 forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina? What was the official language?

19 A. Bosniak/Croatian/Serbian in the same way. At that time I believe

20 that is what it was, or Serbo-Croat. It is a matter of an official

21 definition. You would have to determine it in some other way.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what about the Arab

23 language? Was it used at all within the armed forces of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina?

25 A. No.

Page 18289

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you take a look. On page

2 4 there is a stamp on page 4 -- 3, sorry. You'll see that there is a

3 stamp. There is a saber there and there is some kind of writing in the

4 B/C/S language. And on top of that how do you explain the rest of the

5 seal?

6 A. Since this is at the very start when the armed forces and the army

7 units were being set up at that time, local units or, for example, Bosnian

8 Dragons or Gradina detachment, or some other names. I mean, this had not

9 been standardised yet. There was not a protocol. The armed forces of

10 Bosnia and Herzegovina were only being set up. It is a failure on the

11 part of the commander who would have had to instruct the units on how to

12 communicate and how to introduce markings and references for their units.

13 I believe this was done later, but that was the whole point creating those

14 brigades in order to have a uniform approach.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to move on to

16 another topic. Earlier on when answering the questions you have explained

17 that in the beginning of June 1993 you were on holiday and then when you

18 found out about the HVO offensive you reported straight away to the 7th

19 Brigade. And whilst listening to your reply, I notice that you even added

20 that the battalion was resting. Now, my question is this: War had been

21 declared and even so there were holiday periods when nobody was there.

22 How did it work?

23 A. Well, perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. They were not

24 rested. They were not resting. They had people engaged in three areas.

25 First of all in Vitez in the village of Batalica, then Ravno Rostovo, you

Page 18290

1 see, and third unit which was in the area of responsibility of the 7th

2 Muslim Brigade, and a part of the unit where soldiers were allowed to take

3 leave. In the beginning of June or slightly earlier with the approval of

4 the -- of our superiors there was a change there and so for the people who

5 had not had any leave for 60 days. So we left the answer to the unit in

6 their area of responsibility. And from the 17th Krajiska unit we got 60

7 unarmed soldiers who took those weapons and were using in their territory.

8 So the people who were on leave could have some time off, but most of

9 those people were still in the barracks because they had no other homes

10 and they were still available. And when combat operations started, they

11 were given the first combat task, that is to say to attack Hajdareve

12 Njive.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you yourself, your office

14 was located where exactly when you were within the 7th Brigade? Where was

15 your office?

16 A. My office when I was at the Command Staff was at Zenica unless on

17 the basis of orders from the Chief of Staff, somebody else, I was asked to

18 go to the area of responsibility, Kazici 1260, or the barracks in Travnik

19 in case I was asked to do whatever there was to do with regard to the

20 Travnik Battalion as operations expert, to check whether the technical

21 approach within the unit was right.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Earlier on on this video you saw

23 yourself on the tape. So initially you were in Travnik?

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Afterwards you were within the 7

Page 18291

1 Brigade. Now, on the day that you left Travnik --

2 A. Yes, it was once the 7th Brigade was set up.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. So on the day you left

4 Travnik to go to Zenica where you had an office, who did you meet? Who

5 did you meet the first time that you went to Zenica? Who was the highest

6 ranking officer welcoming you to Zenica?

7 A. On the occasion of the setting up of the unit when the command

8 issued the orders with regard to the setting up of the 7th Brigade, then

9 the commander, the Chief of Staff, and the commander's assistants did all

10 that. And so when I received the orders, or rather the task to go and

11 report to them in Zenica, I had to report to the commander, or rather the

12 Chief of Staff of the brigade to --

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. You reported to the Chief

14 of Staff, who was it?

15 A. It was in November or December when I got there. At the time it

16 was Asim Koricic who received me and he gave me the task.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good. Now, Asim Koricic, did he

18 have an office.

19 A. Yes, he did.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where was his office? What

21 building? What floor? Could you specify that a bit better as to

22 Koricic's office?

23 A. It was on the second floor in the Bilmiste building, the Bilmiste

24 school building.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In Bilmiste then. So you first

Page 18292

1 saw Koricic and then who did you see? Who did you see afterwards?

2 A. After that I met with his assistants and I talked to them and we

3 talked about the technical part of the job. We started with the

4 preparations for the creation and the setting up after the brigade in line

5 with the relevant provisions.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. And at that stage you

7 met with General Kubura?

8 A. No, not then. I met him afterwards, by the end of December or the

9 beginning of January, I can't tell you. It's all in the documents; it's

10 all recorded. Since things were happening very fast that there were

11 combat activities, preparations, and various responsibilities, and all

12 that.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. Now, Koricic, how many

14 times did you see him before he disappeared?

15 A. According to needs. When my task or my line of duty required it

16 or perhaps sometimes in the evening I ran into him. I can't tell you with

17 any degree of precision. Perhaps 15 to 20 times, according to the

18 requirements of my job.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as far as you can remember,

20 the last time you met Koricic was at what time? December? January?

21 February? March? April? What? Could you specify that. Obviously all

22 this was a long time ago, but you can't specify anything at all?

23 A. Your Honour, I can't really be very specific about that, January,

24 March, April. You see, my job was not closely connected to what the

25 commander was doing. I wasn't getting my tasks assigned directly from the

Page 18293

1 commander. I was doing something else. I was not in a position where I

2 could communicate with him a great deal. January, February, March, I'm

3 not at all sure. I can't specify exactly when it was that he left.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you told us that according

5 to your knowledge General Kubura was appointed commander of the brigade in

6 the month of August. When General Kubura was in fact appointed as

7 commander of the 7th Brigade, did Koricic come back or have you never seen

8 him again between his departure and the month of August?

9 A. He did not come back by August, but as to whether he showed up

10 again in October or November, I'm not sure, because there was a total

11 blockade and there was a full-blown conflict with the HVO and so I had not

12 seen him.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So as far as you can remember

14 because you were in the area, Koricic's office was occupied by somebody

15 else or was it left as it was without anyone else using it as far as you

16 can tell?

17 A. I don't remember. I wasn't paying attention to that. I don't

18 know. But I do know -- I was in touch with Mr. Kubura up until September,

19 August, September. And when the new Chief of Staff was appointed I was

20 talking to him and so on. The regular work within the army, but combat

21 operations were already underway so I wasn't paying any special attention

22 to that.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. And now this is my last

24 question and it is about this video. You told us in reply to one of the

25 questions that this event for the Military Staff that was present there

Page 18294

1 was within the framework of an oath taking. Whether --

2 A. Yes.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, when it comes to the armed

4 forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina, is there -- is this oath-taking ceremony

5 mandatory?

6 A. Yes, it is.

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in the former JNA it was the

8 same?

9 A. Yes.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what does it consist of, the

11 oath-taking? Could you describe it very briefly, the ceremony I mean.

12 A. I think there was a standard text for the oath, it gets read out,

13 and the commander reads it out, and the soldiers repeat it after him and

14 that's it I think. I think there is a text from 1992. We should look for

15 it in the archives; I think they have the complete text of the oath, but

16 that is what it's about. There is a standard text.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

18 Right then. Judges have no more questions, so I would like to

19 give the floor to the Prosecution once again.

20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution has no

21 more questions.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the Defence team?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. No questions either.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions. Thank

Page 18295

1 you.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. Your testimony has

3 just been completed. I'd like to thank you for coming here and answering

4 to our questions on behalf of the Trial Chamber, for answering to both the

5 questions on the part of the Defence and the Prosecution as well as the

6 Judges. I wish you all the best and a pleasant trip home, and I'm going

7 to ask the usher to accompany you out of the courtroom.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome and thank you very

9 much.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As to documents, I'd like to

12 give the floor to the Defence team.

13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. We propose to

14 tender into evidence the documents we've got here, number 4, order dated

15 the 19th of February, 1993; then number 5, the order dated the 19th of

16 February, 1993; the document number 6, the order dated the 19th of

17 February, 1993; document number 7, weekly report 261/93, dated the 23rd of

18 February, 1993; number 8, report number 378/93, dated the 14th of March,

19 1993; number 17, combat report number 357/193, dated the 6th of June,

20 1993; and number 20, order number 735/93, dated 17th of August, 1993.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly it

22 was 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 17, and 20?

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] You're quite right,

24 Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.

Page 18296

1 Prosecution.

2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'm just wondering if perhaps with

3 respect to document number 8 and document number 20 if our learned

4 colleagues can give us an indication as to the source of those documents.

5 I note that the other documents that they have tendered all contain ERN

6 numbers and consequently I can quickly trace where those came from and in

7 fact were disclosed to the Defence by the Prosecution. But I don't seem

8 to see any such numbers on documents 8 and 20, and I wonder if we could

9 get an indication as to where those documents were located or the source

10 of those documents.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right, on 8 and 20.

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

13 have forgotten to mention the fact that these are the new documents and

14 they come from the archives from the armed forces of the Bosnia and

15 Herzegovina in the 7th Brigade, and we had some earlier documents in much

16 the same way as Mr. Hadzihasanovic's Defence team. So we did some

17 research in the archives of Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as the 7th

18 Muslim Brigade.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. So the archives of

20 the 7th Brigade.

21 Mr. Mundis.

22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution has no

23 objection to these documents being admitted into evidence.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No comment, Mr. President.

Page 18297

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar.

2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. So

3 we've got a series of seven documents tendered by --

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In English, please.

5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I'm going to give you the

6 references in English.

7 [In English] The first document dated the 19th of February, 1993,

8 is admitted into evidence under the reference DK 29 with an English

9 version DK29/E.

10 The second document dated the same date with internal reference

11 number 241/93 is admitted into evidence under the reference DK30 with an

12 English translation DK30/E.

13 The document dated the same date with the internal reference

14 number PM-80/93 is admitted into evidence under the reference DK31 with an

15 English translation DK31/E.

16 The document dated 23rd of February, 1993, is admitted into

17 evidence under the reference DK32, with an English translation DK32/E.

18 The document dated 14th of March, 1993, is admitted into evidence

19 under the reference DK33, with an English translation DK33/E.

20 The document dated 6th of June, 1993, is admitted into evidence

21 under the reference DK34, with an English translation DK34/E.

22 And the last document dated 17th of August, 1993, is admitted into

23 evidence under the reference DK35, with an English translation DK35/E.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. I'm going to

25 ask the usher to bring in the witness.

Page 18298

1 The Defence is planning on an hour and a half I believe. Can you

2 confirm that, the duration?

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that

4 the examination-in-chief will last three-quarters of an hour at the most.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 Good day, sir. I would first like to make sure that the equipment

8 is functioning properly. Are you receiving the interpretation of what I'm

9 saying? If so, please say yes.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you and understand you.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you have been called here

12 as a witness for Brigadier Kubura's Defence. Before you take the solemn

13 declaration could you please tell me your first and last name and date of

14 birth.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Enver Adilovic. I was

16 born on the 10th of January, 1960.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where were you born?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the village of Kljaci in the

19 municipality of Travnik.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you currently employed or

21 have you retired? What do you do?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm currently unemployed. I was in

23 the federation army up until 2001, but I'm not employed at the moment.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993 did you hold a

25 position of any kind? Were you a member of the military and, if so, which

Page 18299

1 unit were you a member of?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992 I was a member of the Vitez

3 detachment, the Novi Grad detachment of the Vitez Territorial Defence

4 Staff. That was right up until the time when the 7th Muslim Brigade was

5 established.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When were you assigned to the

7 7th Muslim Brigade? Do you remember the precise date?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was immediately on the

9 16th of November, 1992.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you have a specific post and

11 a rank in the 7th Brigade?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later I had the establishment post

13 of a company commander. I think that was towards the end of February.

14 And at the time -- I'm not sure about the ranks but I had the

15 establishment rank of a company commander. So I left the war, or rather

16 the federation army with the rank of captain.

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified

18 before an international or national court with regard to the events that

19 took place in your country in 1992 and 1993, or is this the first time?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time. I've never

21 testified before.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please read out the

23 text of the solemn declaration.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 18300


2 [Witness answered through interpreter]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.

4 Before I give the floor to Defence counsel, who will conduct their

5 examination-in-chief, I would like to provide you with some information

6 about the procedure that we will be following here. You will first have

7 to answer the questions put to you by Defence counsel for Brigadier

8 Kubura. We have been told by the Defence that they will need 40 or 45

9 minutes for their examination-in-chief. Once they have completed their

10 examination-in-chief I will give the floor to the Prosecution, who are to

11 your right. The Prosecutor will also put questions to you, probably for

12 the same length of time. Once the Prosecution has completed its

13 cross-examination, Defence counsel for Mr. Kubura may re-examine you.

14 There is another Defence team defending General Hadzihasanovic, who may

15 also ask you questions.

16 Once all these questions have been put to you the Judges, who are

17 sitting before you, may, if they deem it necessary and if they believe

18 it's in the interest of justice, put questions to you, the purpose of

19 which is to clarify answers that you have given or to fill in gaps that we

20 feel that your testimony contains.

21 I would also like to mention two other important factors. You

22 have taken the solemn declaration and you have said that you will speak

23 the truth, which means that you should not give false testimony. False

24 testimony is a punishable offence. In addition, there is another

25 provision that I should mention; it's a complicated provision but I will

Page 18301

1 try to explain it to you in the clearest possible terms. When a question

2 is put to you, if you feel that your answer could be subsequently used

3 against you to incriminate you, you can say that you don't want to answer

4 the question. You may refuse to answer the question. However, in such a

5 case, and we have never had such cases to date, but I must mention this

6 possibility because it's always something that could happen, in this case

7 the Trial Chamber may compel you to answer the question; however, you are

8 granted a form of immunity. Whatever you say can't be used against you.

9 As the procedure that we follow here is an oral procedure based on

10 your testimony, Defence may show you documents, military documents for

11 example, and ask you to identify the documents and comment on them. If

12 you feel that a question is too complicated or if you fail to understand a

13 question, ask the party putting the question to you to rephrase it. If

14 you encounter any difficulties in the course of your testimony, don't

15 hesitate to mention the fact. For technical reasons we have to have a

16 break every hour and a half. As we started the hearing at 11.10 -- or as

17 we resumed at 10 past 11.00, we will have a break at about half past

18 12.00. So there will only be one break today.

19 If everything goes smoothly, if the schedule is respected by all

20 the parties, it might not be necessary for you to return tomorrow if we

21 complete your examination today; if not, you will have to return tomorrow.

22 Without wasting anymore time, I will now give the floor to the Defence.

23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

24 Examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Adilovic, I would like to ask you to speak up

Page 18302

1 when you answer the questions, and to make a brief pause after I put a

2 question to you. This should make it easier for the interpreters to do

3 their job. In response to a question to the Presiding Judge you said

4 where you were in 1992 and 1993, so I will very briefly repeat the

5 question. In 1992, from the time that the war broke out, where were you

6 in fact?

7 A. I lived in Vitez, and in 1992 I immediately joined the Territorial

8 Defence Staff in Vitez. A volunteer detachment was established and I

9 joined that detachment. I remained in the Vitez Territorial Defence Staff

10 and I went into the field of Visoko. I remained there until I was

11 transferred to the 7th Muslim Brigade. But I forwarded a written request

12 to be transferred to the 7th Muslim Brigade, and that was granted.

13 Q. When did that take place and who granted you that request?

14 A. Well, it was in November. That took place in November. I don't

15 know the name of the officials who granted me leave, but when I was

16 granted this leave I think that Haso Ribo was the commander of the

17 Territorial Defence Staff.

18 Q. Did you become a member of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim

19 Brigade?

20 A. Yes, I did. I became a member of the 1st Battalion of the 7th

21 Muslim Brigade.

22 Q. Were you assigned to any particular company?

23 A. Since at the very beginning the units weren't up to strength and

24 when I left Vitez I was -- I had been a platoon commander down there, so

25 in the 7th Muslim Brigade -- in the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim

Page 18303

1 Brigade I thought that I would be a platoon commander or a company

2 commander. And this is what I had been led to believe. Since the unit

3 wasn't up to strength, they waited for a certain period of time for the

4 unit to be brought up to strength and for me to be appointed as a company

5 commander --

6 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- as a platoon commander or as a

8 company commander.

9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Where were you deployed?

11 A. I was staying in my house, and when I reported to the 1st

12 Battalion, I would go to the barracks. I would report there. That was a

13 temporary situation, and then I would go home on leave and so on and so

14 forth until I was permanently assigned to a unit or rather a company.

15 After I had been assigned to a company, I was issued tasks, and I had to

16 carry out the task.

17 Q. Your battalion, or rather company, did it have any particular zone

18 of responsibility in Travnik or in the greater Travnik area?

19 A. Our unit did have a zone of responsibility; it was above Travnik

20 in the village called Bijelo Bucje and that was the zone we had. It faced

21 the Serbs who were up there and the men were rotated in that area.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your leave

23 we would like to show the witness the map so that he can indicate the

24 exact location of his company during this period of time. This is the

25 only document that we will be using in the course of our

Page 18304

1 examination-in-chief of this witness.

2 Q. Mr. Adilovic, could you please have a look at the map and mark the

3 exact location of the Bijelo Bucje. Mark the location with a felt-tipped.

4 You can use the pen to mark the location with a circle.

5 A. [Marks]

6 Q. How far was this area from Travnik?

7 A. I don't know how far it was exactly, perhaps about 15 kilometres

8 or so. But there were other roads leading from Travnik to Bijelo Bucje,

9 other roads which had to be used for security reasons.

10 Q. Could you just mark this location with a number 1 above the

11 location.

12 A. Above.

13 Q. Mr. Adilovic, in the course of your proofing we discussed document

14 P11, instructions to the Muslim fighter. And I asked you then and I'm

15 asking you now whether you've ever seen this booklet before.

16 A. I only saw that booklet during preparations, but at that time I

17 never saw it nor did a single member of my unit see that booklet or anyone

18 else. If anyone had seen such booklet, I would probably have known of the

19 fact.

20 Q. When you said in the course of the preparations, you mean in the

21 course of the preparations for your testimony?

22 A. Yes, for my testimony.

23 Q. Mr. Adilovic, are you a religious man?

24 A. Yes, I am.

25 Q. At the beginning of April or in mid-April 1993, where were you and

Page 18305

1 what establishment post did you have, Mr. Adilovic?

2 A. Could you please repeat that question.

3 Q. At the beginning of April or in mid-April 1993, where were you

4 together with your unit and what establishment post did you have at the

5 time?

6 A. At that time I was a company commander; that was my establishment

7 post. I was the commander of a company that was from Vitez since I am

8 from Vitez. So the entire company was from Vitez. And about the 10th of

9 April I was assigned a task, or rather I was on temporary leave -- at the

10 time I was on leave and my task was to go to the Bijelo Bucje area of

11 responsibility to replace a unit of ours, or rather a company of ours. I

12 arrived in Travnik with the unit on the 10th of April. And naturally we

13 went to the barracks to prepare so that I could prepare to go into the

14 field. That's where we were issued with weapons and that's where we

15 prepared and we waited for the right time to leave the barracks and go to

16 Bijelo Bucje. Since at the time there was tension because of the HVO and

17 for security reasons, it was decided that I should remain in the barracks

18 until we could examine the situation as far as the HVO was concerned,

19 until the situation calmed down.

20 Q. In mid-April something happened that affected the situation in

21 Travnik in a particular manner. Isn't that correct? I'm referring to

22 your company and to your troops.

23 A. Could you please repeat the question again.

24 Q. In mid-April, was there an event of some kind that in some way

25 disturbed your men or affected the morale of the men in your unit?

Page 18306

1 A. As I have said I was there on the 10th, but on the 16th I was in

2 the barracks. I was in the barracks up until the 16th of April. And

3 since the attack had already been carried out on Ahmici, on the village of

4 Ahmici, my men in the unit were upset since 99 per cent of the soldiers

5 were from Vitez and they didn't want to go to Bijelo Bucje. They had

6 requested to be allowed to return home to see what the situation

7 was as far as their families were concerned. My family was also in Vitez.

8 And on that very same day I found out that my wife had been wounded and I

9 also asked to return to Vitez. Since the main roads had been blocked and

10 it wasn't possible to travel from Travnik to Vitez by using those roads, I

11 asked -- I wanted to travel over -- to go via the hills, to reach the

12 village of Poculica which is where we would collect soldiers when I had to

13 go into the field.

14 Q. Were you authorised by the battalion command to go there with your

15 unit?

16 A. Yes, I had to ask for their authorisation, because as I have said

17 weapons had been left in the barracks and the men weren't allowed to go

18 home without their weapons and the weapons had to be left there [as

19 interpreted]; that was the order. But I then had to ask the battalion

20 commander to allow us to have weapons and ammunition. I didn't know which

21 route I would take. I didn't what would happen to me. I didn't know

22 whether anyone would be waiting for me. And thank God I was authorised to

23 do what I wanted to do. I managed to reach Poculica with the unit without

24 having to engage in combat of any kind.

25 Q. Given the passage of time, can you now remember how long after the

Page 18307

1 events in Ahmici you set off with your unit?

2 A. Two or three days after that event. I can't be precise, but it

3 was two or three days later while waiting for the procedural matters to be

4 dealt with.

5 Q. Could you inform the Chamber and tell us where Poculica is

6 located?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You can use the map to indicate the location. You can use a

9 felt-tipped to encircle the location.

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Can you mark it with number 2.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. How many men did you set off from Travnik with and how many men

14 did you reach Poculica with? What was the strength of your unit?

15 A. There were about a hundred men in my company, but not everyone

16 went into the field. About 70 of them set off. Ten men remained at home.

17 I set off from Travnik with that unit. We set off in the direction of

18 Poculica.

19 Q. When you reached there did you establish contact with any other

20 ABiH unit?

21 A. Yes, I did.

22 Q. Which unit was that?

23 A. When I reached Poculica I established contact with the 325th

24 Brigade and I informed the brigade command, or rather at that time I spoke

25 to Halil Brzina, person in my unit was re-subordinated to the 325th

Page 18308

1 Brigade and I was given responsibility in the zone of Sljivcica. In the

2 zone of responsibility I carried out rotations for the 325th. Of the

3 hundred men I had, I formed a shift for myself.

4 Q. You said that you had the zone of responsibility and that you were

5 subordinated to 325th Brigade. Where is Sljivcica located? Could you

6 point to its location on the map. If there is a larger place there, could

7 you mark it?

8 A. I can't find it, but it's above Sivrino Selo.

9 Q. Is Sivrino Selo, Sivrino village on the map?

10 A. Yes, it is.

11 Q. Could you mark it then, please.

12 A. [Marks]

13 Q. Could you mark the location with a number 3.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. At that period of time how far away was the zone of responsibility

16 encompassing Sivrino Selo and Sljivcica from Travnik?

17 A. Well, it was about 20 kilometres from Travnik.

18 Q. A minute ago you said that you informed the brigade commander

19 Mr. Halil Brzina. What sort of duties did Halil Brzina have at the time?

20 A. I really don't know what his duties were. I'm not sure but I know

21 that I turned to him on a number of occasions, I contacted him on a number

22 of occasions. I felt close to him, but I couldn't really tell you exactly

23 what his duties were. I don't know.

24 Q. How long did your company remain in that field, during which

25 period of time was it there?

Page 18309

1 A. My company remained in that area of responsibility right up until

2 July, I think. I couldn't tell you what the exact month was, but I

3 remained there until the road between the brigade command and the 1st

4 Battalion command became passable. When this road was opened up, I then

5 immediately joined the battalion and participated in other activities

6 within the framework of the battalion.

7 Q. That was after the events in June 1993 in Travnik?

8 A. Yes, after those events.

9 Q. You said that you arrived in that area a few days after the events

10 in Ahmici. Could you be more precise. What was the date, what was the

11 period of time if events took place in Ahmici on the 16th of April?

12 A. The events in Ahmici took place on the 16th, and it's around that

13 time that I set off. It was around the 18th. I arrived on the 20th or

14 around the 20th in Poculica.

15 Q. Was that in April?

16 A. Yes, in April.

17 Q. Between the 20th of April, 1993, after the events in Travnik, a

18 tumultuous month in 1993. After that month were you engaged in any kind

19 of combat in that area?

20 A. I wasn't engaged in combat activity of any kind, apart from that I

21 had to control the area of responsibility. But as my family was down

22 below, my wife had been wounded, I took upon myself certain

23 responsibilities, I made sure that shifts functions in the area of

24 responsibility, and I made efforts to get my family members and the

25 Bosniak people out of my settlement. So I worked on that for about 20

Page 18310

1 days until I managed to get my wife, children, and some people from my

2 settlement out.

3 Q. As the company commander did you have a report from that period of

4 time that, from the 20th of April until the end of June, and that's the

5 amount of time you spent in that area, did you have any information, any

6 reports, that there was combat in your area of responsibility?

7 A. No, I had no such information.

8 Q. I believe you went back to Travnik when communication was set up

9 between Travnik and Vitez?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you find out afterwards when you got back to Travnik where the

12 rest of the battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade was engaged?

13 A. I found out from fighters that they participated in action at

14 Hajdareve Njive.

15 Q. Are you familiar with the name Ramo Durmis?

16 A. Yes, I am.

17 Q. Did you know him yourself?

18 A. Yes, I did, but since it is a man - how should I put this? - an

19 irresponsible man, I was not very close friends with him. But I did know

20 him.

21 Q. Do you know when he left the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim

22 Brigade?

23 A. He left the 7th Muslim Brigade, according to my memory it was in

24 January. I never saw him again afterwards, nor did I have an opportunity

25 to sit down and talk to him or anything like that.

Page 18311












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18312

1 Q. And so it was in 1993?

2 A. Yes, in 1993.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions for

5 this witness, Mr. President. And I would just like to ask the witness to

6 sign the map and indicate the date as well.

7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [No interpretation]

9 THE WITNESS: [Marks]

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does the Defence wish to tender

11 this map into evidence?

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right.

14 Do the other Defence team members have any objections?

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about the Prosecution?

17 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.

19 Registrar, a number.

20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you. It is Defence

21 document for Mr. Kubura, D436 [as interpreted].

22 [In English] It will be my pleasure to announce this into English.

23 This exhibit is admitted into the evidence under the reference DK36.

24 Thank you, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would the other lawyers like to

Page 18313

1 ask any questions of the witness?

2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Not for the time being,

3 Mr. President, thank you.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am turning to the Prosecution

5 now -- yes?

6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I do apologise to my

7 learned friend. There is a mistake in the transcript. It is DK36, not

8 DK436.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi:

10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Adilovic. I just have a few questions to you;

11 it shouldn't take that long. I'm not entirely clear about the date you

12 became a company commander. It must have been sometime in November,

13 perhaps sometime later. Can you specify when it was that you became a

14 company commander? I'm not talking about the Territorial Defence of

15 Vitez; I'm talking about the 7th Muslim -- Mountain Muslim Brigade, that

16 is.

17 A. I believe it was by the end of February 1993.

18 Q. And it was within the 1st Battalion of the 7th Mountain Muslim

19 Brigade. Is that correct?

20 A. [No interpretation]

21 Q. And can you tell us how many companies there were with --

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the witness.


24 Q. If you could answer the question again I had asked before because

25 the interpreters didn't pick it up. My question was whether that -- you

Page 18314

1 know, the company was within the 1st Battalion of the 7th Mountain Muslim

2 Brigade.

3 A. Yes, the 7th Muslim Brigade.

4 Q. And the 1st Battalion?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, how many -- how many companies does the 1st Battalion have at

7 the time you were one of the company commanders?

8 A. There were four companies, but they were not up to full strength

9 in terms of their establishment.

10 Q. I believe you told us your company had hundred soldiers. Is that

11 correct?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. Now, the other companies, did they have more or less than hundred

14 soldiers?

15 A. A lot less.

16 Q. Can you tell us about the strength in numbers. How much less?

17 A. The other companies numbered between 50 and 60 men, thereabouts.

18 Q. Your company which you were leading from February 1993 onwards,

19 did it have a name, a number? Was it the 1st Company, the 2nd?

20 A. It was called the Vitez Company and it was the 4th Company as

21 well.

22 Q. The other companies, did they also have names according to where

23 the people came from like the Vitez Company in your case? How were the

24 other companies called, if they had names?

25 A. They were called by their name -- numbers.

Page 18315

1 Q. 1st one, 2nd one, 3rd, one, and then the 4th one being the Vitez

2 Company?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. In your company did you have platoons or detachments?

5 A. Within the company I had detachments and departments -- platoons

6 rather.

7 Q. And how many detachments were there within your company?

8 A. It would be easier for me to say how many platoons were within

9 detachments. We had three detachments and three platoons per each

10 detachment. The 1st, the 2nd, the 3rd, for the 1st one, and then for the

11 2nd one, 1, 2, 3 again.

12 Q. Now, who was your battalion commander at the time you were the

13 command of the 4th Vitez Company?

14 A. At that moment it was Fadil Hadzic.

15 Q. Was he the battalion commander throughout the time you were the

16 company commander or did he change?

17 A. Not the whole time. There were changes.

18 Q. And who succeeded him?

19 A. I believe that he was followed by Safet Junozovic.

20 Q. And was there a time that Safit Terzic [as interpreted] was also a

21 commander of the 1st Battalion?

22 A. I do not know. I don't remember that.

23 Q. Now, you told us that on 10th of April you were supposed to

24 replace a unit at Bijelo Bucje. Is that correct?

25 A. Yes, that's correct.

Page 18316

1 Q. Do you remember which unit you were supposed to replace?

2 A. I remember the company commander Suad --

3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the name,

4 unfortunately, again.


6 Q. Could you repeat the full name. The interpreters couldn't catch

7 you.

8 A. I do remember the first name of the commander -- well, it was

9 Jusovic, Suad.

10 Q. Now, just to clear something up, you said that after the events in

11 Ahmici you and your unit, you know, were transferred to another area and

12 you have circled that area, and it was around Poculica and you also

13 indicated that you were also at Sivrino Selo. And you told us that the

14 time frame was from front of April, when you arrived, until I believe

15 sometime in July. Is that correct?

16 A. So I said when I got to Poculica it's a location where -- when I

17 was supposed to go out to the field I used to gather my men. And my area

18 of responsibility was in Sljivcica and Sivrino Selo, and I had that

19 territory under control. I can't remember the date, but I stayed there

20 for as long as -- we had no communication between the brigade command and

21 the battalion command, between Zenica and Travnik that is. When that

22 communication was established, I went back to the battalion command, that

23 is to say the units within the battalion.

24 Q. When you say there was no communication between the brigade and

25 the battalion command, you, your unit, had contacts with the battalion

Page 18317

1 command. Is that correct?

2 A. My unit had contact with the brigade command but not with the

3 battalion command.

4 Q. Now, where was the battalion command located at that time?

5 A. Travnik.

6 Q. And what was the mission your company was given, you as the

7 commander, in that area? What were you supposed to do there?

8 A. My task was simply to stop the advance of the HVO forces in the

9 direction of Poculica village.

10 Q. Was Poculica village so important that it needed to be defended?

11 Why would the HVO advance to that village?

12 A. I don't know why, but it was important to defend Poculica, it was

13 important to me. And I stayed there to defend Poculica. When I got there

14 I didn't go to there to go to sleep. I participated in the activities of

15 the 325th. In order to have this area of responsibility under control, in

16 order to stop the HVO from advancing, but why that area was interesting to

17 them I don't know.

18 Q. So you were hundred soldiers in that village or in the wider area,

19 more or less?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. How many civilians were living in that area, the area you had

22 under control at that time?

23 A. I don't know Poculica is a village. There is Prnjavor and

24 Vrhovine. I can't tell you exactly how many. But those soldiers were my

25 soldiers from these areas, Poculica, Lupac, and so on and so forth. So it

Page 18318

1 was easier. I mean, some of them could go home and sow the crops, et

2 cetera, and I had another shift from another village and they could stay

3 at home. There were no combat activities in terms of advancing or pushing

4 back the HVO forces. There was nothing like that at the time. We were

5 simply trying to stop them from making any advances themselves.

6 Q. Do you remember how many women and children there were in that

7 village?

8 A. I can't remember. It was the normal population living there, and

9 the way it had always been. There were women and children and everybody

10 else. Apart from that there were some refugees from Vitez who came up

11 there and they were housed there, so I can't tell you exactly how many

12 houses or how many families or how many refugees or anything else. But it

13 was densely populated and there were quite a few people there.

14 Q. And the men, the local men, were part of your company, the men of

15 fighting age?

16 A. Correct. Those who were fit to fight, I mean not all of them.

17 Some of them were in the 325th. So a part of that population, a hundred

18 people from the villages, Lupac, Preocica, Vrhovine, Poculica, and so on.

19 So from that detachment area, about a hundred people who made up my

20 company.

21 Q. So people who were fighting age were either deployed in your

22 company or in another part of the -- or the 3rd Corps?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, just to be entirely sure, you told us that you were part of

25 the 325th Brigade. You were resubordinated or deployed as part of the

Page 18319

1 325th Brigade, if I understood you correctly?

2 A. I did not say that I was a member of the 325th; I was a member of

3 the Territorial Defence Staff Vitez. On the occasion of the setting up of

4 brigades and corps at that stage, I joined the 7th Muslim Brigade.

5 However, since I got there to that area, my area of responsibility, the

6 one that was assigned to me, was within the area of responsibility of the

7 325th and they gave me a part of that area in which to stop the advance of

8 the HVO forces.

9 Q. Now, you told us that you were -- you talked to Mr. Halil Brzina.

10 I think you said he was a person you trusted over that time. Is that

11 correct?

12 A. I said I talked to him. I told him I got there and about the

13 situation of my family and all that. I explained all that to him and I

14 asked for the Red Cross to -- for Red Cross assistance through him in

15 order for my family to be saved because I knew that my wife had been

16 wounded and -- in Vitez, and that there were other people who were

17 wounded. So I asked him for assistance to help me, to somehow reach my

18 family and get them out of that inferno and to remain within the area of

19 responsibility of the 325th and to stay here in that area of

20 responsibility, that area Sljivcica and Sivrino Selo are close to my home,

21 so I could follow the events there.

22 Q. While you were there, did you have contacts with Mr. Brzina, or

23 was it just in the beginning while you were sent there?

24 A. Only in the beginning. Only in the beginning. Basically I talked

25 to him and then he wrote to the Red Cross. And then I was assigned my

Page 18320

1 area of responsibility and I stuck to it, and I concentrated on the

2 well-being of my family and the Bosniak people who were our neighbours.

3 Q. And Mr. Halil Brzina, he was the deputy brigade commander of the

4 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. Do you remember that?

5 A. I did not say that nor do I remember that he was.

6 Q. In fact, there is some information that he may have been the

7 assistant commander for logistics in that time period. So that's not

8 something which you were aware of at that time?

9 A. I was with the battalion command and according to the brigade

10 command, and I mean what it was all about, I was not really interested in

11 all that. I didn't need to know who was there. It was a higher level. I

12 didn't care about that. I cared about my own responsibility, which was at

13 the battalion; that was my job. And I got my tasks assigned from the

14 battalion, and so I was responsible for my own unit and I was responsible

15 and accountable to the battalion commander and no one else and it was up

16 to him and so on.

17 Q. Let me go back, or rather forward to Mr. Ramo Durmis. You have

18 been asked about him and I believe you said sort of you lost contact in

19 January 1993. Now, were you involved in an action on the 28th December,

20 1992, in the area of Visoko and Visegrad?

21 A. Yes, I was, at Visoko. But not at that time. I was not -- I

22 mean, at that time I was not a company commander. I just went up there

23 with the commanders and I followed the activities.

24 Q. Just to be clear, on the 28th of December, 1992, when there was

25 some type of action in the Visoko area, you were a part of that?

Page 18321

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Because we do have a report by Mr. Ramo Durmis in which he

3 mentions you as being present there. So that would -- that would be

4 correct?

5 A. I've never seen such a report until the proofing, and what I did

6 see -- I mean as to whether I was there, well it is correct that I was

7 there. And as to everything else, I really don't believe any of it.

8 Q. When is it the last time that you have seen Mr. Ramo Durmis?

9 A. I said at some point in January straight afterwards, straight

10 after Visoko on the 28th of December. That was the last time I saw him

11 and I never met him or had anything to do with him whatsoever, and I

12 didn't even know where he was and what he was up to. But I did hear that

13 he was no longer with the 7th Muslim Brigade.

14 Q. And from whom did you hear that?

15 A. From soldiers, fighters, my own men.

16 Q. Why would they tell you something about Ramo Durmis? Was he a

17 person of interest, prominence?

18 A. I myself actually argued with Ramo Durmis from the very start,

19 when we first met; it was between the two of us. And I never, ever wanted

20 to sit down, have a coffee, or talk to him, let alone participate in any

21 sort of activity at his side, never again.

22 Q. Never again after what time?

23 A. After the 28th of December when we got back from Visoko. It was

24 in the month of January. We parted ways and I went to one side and I

25 don't know what he did, where he took himself to. And afterwards I heard,

Page 18322

1 as I said, that he was no longer with the 7th Muslim Brigade.

2 Q. Well, we just heard from the previous witness that the operation

3 in Visoko was successful and the units involved -- Mr. Ramo Durmis's unit

4 was even commended for that action. The person who said that was the

5 operations officer of the 7th Mountain Muslim Brigade. Do you disagree

6 with him?

7 A. I disagree that it was all that successful; I think it was a

8 failure in fact. And I don't know whether he got any awards or not. I

9 never cared about it, especially anything having to do with Ramo Durmis.

10 But from my personal point of view, it was not a success. It was a

11 failure.

12 Q. Were you ever in contacts with any foreign fighters where Arab

13 countries or from Turkish countries? In your capacity as a company

14 commander, were you in contacts?

15 A. I'm just waiting for the interpretation. Well, I've never had any

16 contacts, either myself or my unit, and I believe that no one from our

17 battalion had any contacts with any foreigners, or foreign members as we

18 called them. I myself can guarantee that I myself or members of my unit

19 or the battalion have never had anything to do with them.

20 Q. How is it possible you can speak for the battalion? You can

21 certainly talk about your company, but how can you talk about the other

22 three companies? What makes you so certain that, number 1, number 2,

23 number 3 didn't have contact with these fighters?

24 A. Well, when we changed shifts and spent time at the barracks, the

25 1st and the 2nd Company, I mean, I got to know these people. And on that

Page 18323

1 basis I can make this claim, and I've never seen anyone coming to the

2 battalion command in the company of any such people; that's the basis of

3 my claim. Okay, it is true that I am at the company level and I am

4 accountable for what the company does, but I do know of about things

5 taking place around me and I know this has never happened.

6 Q. Are you aware that one of the staff officers of the brigade said

7 in August that people from the brigade -- battalion got used to the

8 foreign fighters and that they in fact liked their presence because it

9 makes them more secure? Have you heard about that?

10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I've never heard

11 anything like that. I've never heard of any staff officer having been

12 quoted as saying that, and my learned colleague has not told the witness

13 who is supposed to have said that and when. So I don't know what it's all

14 about. This may confuse the witness.

15 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, this is P610. It's a document from

16 the assistant commander for morale, Mr. Ahmet Adilovic, and I can show it

17 to the witness and perhaps that can -- he can have a comment and say, yes,

18 I change my opinion, or no I haven't heard about that. It can be shown to

19 the witness, I have no problem; P610 please.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please

21 give us P610.

22 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. Usher, we do have an additional copy -- in

23 fact, for everybody in the courtroom if ...

24 Q. Have you ever heard of Mr. Ahmet Adilovic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18324

1 Q. Do you remember what his position was at that time?

2 A. I'm not sure, but I think he was responsible for the morale of the

3 soldiers but I'm not sure.

4 Q. Yes, that's right. And if you look at the first part of the

5 document you see it's a document entitled "Report on BM,"

6 apparently, "combat morale situation." And it's sent to the commander of

7 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. It dates 4th August, 1993. And let

8 me -- I'm just interested in paragraph 4, if you can go down to paragraph

9 4. And here it says what I asked you before and I can read it slowly to

10 you: "In addition to these, the following are specific factors for the

11 1st Battalion, 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade," and that's your battalion,

12 Mr. Adilovic.

13 Then A: "To date they have got used to the Arabs and also some

14 Turks taking part in B/D with them. Their presence makes them more secure

15 and the Arabs were frequently of decisive importance for the success of an

16 action. So the soldiers of the 1st Battalion, 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade

17 wanted them engaged again in B/D with members of the 1st Battalion, 7th

18 Muslim Mountain Brigade."

19 My question to you is just: Does that also apply to your unit,

20 that you, you know, felt more secure when these people were present?

21 That's my question.

22 A. Within my unit, and I've said this before, there were no foreign

23 participants of any sort. So I can't tell you how my unit felt without or

24 with them since we were never with them, they [Realtime transcript read in

25 error "we"] were never there in my unit. So these were only and

Page 18325

1 exclusively the people from the area that I've just described. And as to

2 this report, I mean it's up to him, up to the author of that report. I

3 don't know to whom he had talked. He never contacted my unit for the

4 purposes of this report. I mean, that's from the brigade commander; it is

5 his opinion. Perhaps a couple of people did think like that. I am able

6 to argue about this, but I am unaware of this. And I do know that there

7 were no foreign members or foreigners within my unit; I can claim that and

8 I stand by it. And as to what people may have wished for or not wished

9 for, that's altogether a different matter.

10 Q. The only reason I show you the document is --

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Defence counsel.

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

13 didn't want to interrupt my colleague, but there's an error in the

14 transcript, page 69, line 17 the witness said "they were never in my

15 unit."

16 MR. WAESPI: Yes, thank you very much for the correction.

17 Q. The only point is, Mr. Adilovic, I don't dispute what you said

18 about your company; I was just wary about the fact that you wanted to

19 speak on behalf of the whole battalion. And this document seems to

20 contradict what you said about the rest of the battalion.

21 A. I'm telling you now. I don't know. I was never familiar with the

22 way that this document was drafted. I don't know whether there were

23 discussions of any kind. There were no discussions with my unit. I don't

24 know on the basis of what this report was drafted.

25 MR. WAESPI: I have no further questions, Mr. President.

Page 18326

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's time to have a break now.

2 Does Defence counsel have any additional questions for the

3 witness?

4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Not at the moment,

5 Mr. President.

6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have our break now and

7 we'll resume at 1.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.

9 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now resume. Defence

11 counsel for Mr. Kubura have said that they have no additional questions

12 for the witness. I will now turn to General Hadzihasanovic's Defence

13 counsel. Do you have any additional questions for this witness?

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No. Thank you, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So I have a few brief questions

16 I would like to put to you.

17 Questioned by the Court:

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell me when you

19 retired what was the rank that you held?

20 A. I didn't even say that I retired. I left the Federation army in

21 2001 in the month of September. I'm unemployed. I'm not retired. I left

22 with the rank of captain.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you left the army in 2001 of

24 your own accord. Could you tell me what the first name of your father

25 was.

Page 18327

1 A. His first name is Sefik.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well because there is a

3 document with two individuals with the same first name. I will show you

4 P498, which is a list of the members of the 7th Brigade. This document,

5 which is a list of members of the 7th Brigade, could you have a look at

6 page 3, please, and your name is on page 3 of that document. It says that

7 the 1st Battalion, the 1st Company, the 1st Detachment on the 28th of

8 October there's Ramo Durmis, the 1st Company, the 1st -- on the 1st of

9 February 1993 is Suad Jusovic. The 3rd Company, 1st Detachment, 15th of

10 January, 1993, Rezad Skopljak; and then the 1st Company, commander of the

11 2nd Detachment, the 10th of January, 1993, Asim Bektas. And you appear as

12 the commander of the 2nd Company of the 2nd Detachment, the 10th of

13 December, 1992. Were you appointed on the 5th of December, 1992?

14 A. At the time I didn't have these duties. As I have said, these

15 were assumptions on the strength of the units. But towards the end of

16 February at the beginning of March, I took over this company from Bektas,

17 Asim, and this isn't the name of my father.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the English translation that

19 I have of the first name of your father it says Sekib. Was there a

20 mistake made?

21 A. My father's name was Sefik, not Sekib.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sefik, because you say that the

23 5th of December, 1992, is not the right date. You assumed command in

24 February, not before. Have I understood you correctly?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 18328

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In response to a question put to

2 you a minute ago you said that there were four companies. When one has a

3 look at this document, I can see that there is a 1st Company, a 2nd

4 Company, and a 3rd Company. Where's the 4th Company?

5 A. Just a minute, please. This isn't clear to me here below. It

6 says the 1st Company then the 2nd Company. This part isn't clear.

7 According to this document, there were two other companies. You can see

8 it says "the commander of the 2nd Company Suad Jusovic." The commander of

9 the other company was Adlo, Enver, son of Sekib.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When reading this document it

11 would appear, as you say, that there are -- that in the 2nd Company there

12 is one detachment with Suad Jusovic at its head, and in the other

13 detachment you seem to be at its head. Can you explain that, since Suad

14 Jusovic can be seen above as the deputy commander since he is referred to

15 as the deputy. And there's the date, the 13th of December, 1993. Would

16 Fadil Hadic be the deputy, and Naim Horo, Osman Osmanovic, Suad Jusovic,

17 these individuals would be the deputies. In your opinion this document is

18 not quite correct?

19 A. It's not at all correct.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The name -- but you say that

21 this document doesn't reflect the actual situation. If I have understood

22 you correctly, you were officially the commander of the 2nd Company as of

23 the month of February, 1993, and not before that date?

24 A. Not of the second one. Asim Bektas was at the head of the Vitez

25 4th Company, which was called the 4th one. It was called the Vitez

Page 18329

1 Company; that's the company that I took over at the end of February 1993.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the end of February 1993. So

3 you took charge of Bektas's company, the so-called Vitez Company. We take

4 note of what you have just said.

5 I'll move on to another subject now. In response to a question

6 put to you, you said that the company was composed of about 100 men,

7 roughly speaking. You were in charge of about a hundred men. While you

8 performed your duties as commander and you started performing those duties

9 at the end of February 1993, while performing those duties did your

10 company sustain any losses in combat? Were there any men under you who

11 were either killed or wounded in combat?

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When I assumed my duties we

13 weren't involved in fighting. We held the area of responsibility and

14 there were shifts. The area of responsibility was near Travnik in the

15 village of Bijelo Bucje. So we weren't really involved in combat

16 activities. And at that time I didn't have any men who had been wounded

17 or killed. From March onwards, in March and April, in Sljivcica, some men

18 were wounded by the HVO. There were -- there would be an exchange of

19 fire, they would open fire from their lines. So there were a few such

20 cases. A few men who were slightly wounded. They weren't seriously

21 wounded. So during that period of time, I didn't sustain any losses.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were on the slopes of

23 Travnik in the area of responsibility, were you in the field around the

24 clock or would you be present during the day and would you then return to

25 sleep in your homes in the evening and then go back into the field into

Page 18330

1 your zone of responsibility in the morning? How did this take place?

2 Were you in the field on a permanent basis or did you come and go?

3 A. I took over the zone of responsibility with my unit in Bijelo

4 Bucje. So I was on the front lines, but occasionally the men would have

5 leave in the evening or they would rest near the line in dugouts, et

6 cetera. Occasionally they would descend to the area where there are

7 houses so that they could rest and so that I could have a rest, too. We

8 would rest in those houses. We would have a shift and one shift would

9 hold the line and another shift would be resting near the line, and then

10 there were some men down below in those houses where they could also have

11 a rest. That's How the men rotated in Bijelo Bucje. That's how we

12 proceeded.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you took up your position

14 in Bijelo Bucje, was there a written order stating that your company was

15 to take charge of that area? Was there a written order that you received

16 or were you informed of the fact orally?

17 A. Well, in Bijelo Bucje as the army already had men involved in

18 defence at the time, I can't say how this happened, but our battalion was

19 assigned a zone of responsibility up there and, naturally, I arrived there

20 with my unit. Our company was already holding the defence line up there

21 and I only replaced that company. The men were rotated that company and

22 then went to the battalion in Travnik and I would remain up there where I

23 was in charge of that area of responsibility.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were on those slopes,

25 what means of communication did you have with your headquarters? Did you

Page 18331

1 have any radio sets? How did you inform your superior in the headquarters

2 and his deputies of what was happening in the field? Or did you have

3 communication problems?

4 A. In Bijelo Bucje there was an advance detachment that monitored

5 everything via the communications. Those were the communications with the

6 battalion that we had. And up in the area of responsibility itself I did

7 have problems because we didn't really have Motorolas. We didn't have

8 much equipment to use as means of communication. Whenever it was

9 necessary to contact the battalion command, I had to descend down below

10 and inform the communications officer of the information that I had to

11 relay. And I had to do this in order to receive a response. Occasionally

12 sometimes I would say -- sometimes I had a Motorola, but this was quite

13 rare. Sometimes I had a Motorola on me.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the 7th Brigade, did the

15 Chief of Staff assemble his company commanders for working meetings, for

16 briefings? Did you assemble or did you never see each other?

17 A. I had working meetings with the battalion command alone. And

18 later, in August 1993, I had a briefing with Mr. Amir Kubura. We were

19 scattered all over the place, so it was a matter of becoming familiar with

20 a unit commander's company commanders.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the battalion commander, did

22 he visit you in the field, see the sort of things you were involved in, to

23 see what sort of difficulties you might encounter? Did your battalion

24 commander visit you?

25 A. Yes, he did. He would come to visit the unit to have a look

Page 18332

1 around and so on.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With regard to the military

3 police of the 7th Brigade, did you usually -- did you have any contact

4 with them from time to time or did you never see them?

5 A. It wasn't necessary for me to have contact with them. I didn't

6 meet them nor was I involved in any activities with them. It wasn't

7 necessary for them to bring anyone in, et cetera. So as far as security

8 was concerned, I didn't have any problems and I did not have to have much

9 contact with them. I didn't have to have contact with them.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And if you had had a problem,

11 who would you have informed of the fact within the 7th Brigade's military

12 police unit?

13 A. You would report to the command battalion. If a soldier had left

14 the line, had failed to respond to a summons, I -- left my unit. And if I

15 didn't know where he had gone, there's a certain procedure to be followed.

16 If you want to go into another unit you need authorisation from another

17 unit. But I have already said that I didn't have such problems so that I

18 personally had to send reports to the battalion command.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question: When you were

20 appointed or selected to become company commander, did you know for what

21 reason you yourself had been selected, or did you yourself come forward?

22 A. Well, I myself had come forward and asked to be commander. It was

23 my own request, my personal request. I came along and I said, Okay, this

24 is where I come from and I was a detachment commander and I wanted to have

25 that post, company or a detachment commander. I asked for it, quite

Page 18333

1 simply.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, thank you for your replies

3 to my questions.

4 Now I'd like to turn to the Prosecution. Would you like to ask

5 any questions following the Judge's questions?

6 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President, there's a couple.

7 Further cross-examination by Mr. Waespi:

8 Q. If we can turn to page 3 of that document, it lists the commander

9 of the 1st Company, 1st detachment, and 2nd Company commander 1st

10 Detachment, and so on. Now, let me ask you, is it possible that the

11 battalion was divided into two detachments and then for each detachment

12 there were several companies? That means for the 1st Detachment of the

13 Battalion there was the 1st Company, the 2nd, and the 3rd one; and for the

14 2nd Detachment of the Battalion there was the 1st Company and the 2nd

15 Company. And you were the commander of the 2nd Company of the 2nd

16 Detachment of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. And

17 within your company, you then had, again, detachments. Is that a possible

18 explanation of the way the situation was?

19 A. Well, I'll reply to this question once again. If you have a

20 battalion within a battalion, you can't have detachments. I've already

21 mentioned on a number of occasions that before the fact -- because of the

22 fact that we were not up to strength -- I mean, these are -- this is the

23 situation from before. We were trying to have detachments first because a

24 detachment is smaller than a battalion. And then we thought we would have

25 two detachments and then a battalion. And this is the structure. This

Page 18334

1 was probably the original idea, but it did not happen that way in

2 practice. We had to have a brigade but you can't have battalions made of

3 detachments. They could only be made up of companies.

4 So this did not actually exist as such. Maybe this was the

5 initial conception, these were the plans when the 7th Muslim Brigade or

6 the 1st Battalion were first being planned and set up. So I really am not

7 aware of this because for a certain period of time I was asking for more

8 people to join in, et cetera, in order to be posted accordingly.

9 Q. And just on this, if you look at the names listed as company

10 commanders, Mr. Durmis, Jusovic, Skopljak and you, Mr. Adilovic, I

11 understand, you came in later. These were company commanders at the time?

12 A. In the field -- no, it wasn't like that. You can have any papers

13 you like, but I was not a company commander at the time. I became a

14 company commander on the basis of a written order at the end of February

15 when I took over from Asim Bektas, and I took over the Vitez Company, and

16 at that stage I acted as a commander.

17 Q. What did Asim Bektas do after you replaced him?

18 A. He went into logistics, something like that, I don't know, because

19 he did not wish to continue as a company commander anymore. And since I

20 am from that area, from Vitez, I was ordered to -- by the battalion

21 command to organise the practicalities a bit better, going out into the

22 field, going home, coming back, et cetera, and so to replace Asim Bektas,

23 and Asim Bektas, well, I don't know what was with him, something in

24 logistics, but what exactly he did, I don't know.

25 Q. And while you were there as the company commander after February

Page 18335

1 1993, Mr. Suad Jusovic was also company commander of a different company

2 within the 1st Battalion.

3 A. He was commander of that company, and I did say that on the 10th

4 of April I was supposed to replace that company from the Bijelo Bucje

5 position from Poculica. And I went in the direction of Travnik barracks

6 and we waited a little bit, although I didn't go up there to replace him

7 in the field.

8 Q. Let me finish. Before you were appointed the commander of this

9 company in February, you said that in November you had filed a written

10 request to join the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade to Mr. Haso Ribo and then

11 you were, in fact -- became a member of that brigade. In what capacity

12 were you a member of the brigade between November and February? What were

13 you doing? What sub-unit of the brigade were you attached to before you

14 became the commander of the 2nd Company?

15 A. Right. I was not carrying out any duties on the basis of any

16 documents, orders, or anything like that. I was within the unit within

17 the battalion. I was following the situation of the units; that was my

18 task until the setting up order -- gathering of the people from that

19 battalion to former companies. So I followed the situation within the

20 unit. I went to Bijelo Bucje, et cetera. And I said I went to Visoko.

21 And I was simply following that action, nothing else, as a member of the

22 7th Muslim Brigade.

23 Q. And which unit did you follow to Bijelo Bucje?

24 A. At that time, Jusovic's or somebody else's -- I don't know who it

25 was. Whenever a commander tells you, okay, go and take a look, check

Page 18336

1 things out, whether there's a need for something, just check out the

2 general state of the unit at Bijelo Bucje.

3 Q. So you were given a supervisory task in some sort? You were given

4 the task to go there and see what's happening with this unit?

5 A. Those were orders given to us orally to check it out. I was not

6 given any orders in writing, but I did carry out the tasks I was told to

7 carry out.

8 Q. Who gave you the order to check things out in Bijelo Bucje?

9 A. At the time Fadil Hadzic for the most part. I don't know who

10 else. I don't know.

11 Q. And Fadil Hadzic, if you look at again page 3, you see him as the

12 first deputy commander of the 1st Battalion. Would that be the Fadil

13 Hadzic, son of Refik, who gave you the oral order to go to Bijelo Bucje?

14 A. Yes, that's him. But I don't know that he had this establishment

15 post. I really don't know.

16 Q. But he was --

17 A. I don't even know that all those detachments existed as such.

18 Within this whole effort of setting up a brigade and a battalion, I don't

19 know that there were any detachments. I really don't know about that.

20 Q. Yes, but he was obviously in a position of authority to give you

21 an order and you accepted it, Mr. Fadil Hadzic?

22 A. Yes. He couldn't just tell me what to do in any old way. I mean,

23 of course he was told certain things and then he issued his directions to

24 me.

25 Q. And the units you went to visit in Bijelo Bucje were units part of

Page 18337

1 the 1st Battalion?

2 A. The 1st Battalion.

3 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about the Defence?

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no questions,

6 Mr. President. Thank you.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one

8 clarification, and I'd like for the witness to be shown this document that

9 he was looking at earlier. On it is DK36 for the Defence of Mr. Kubura.

10 I have a copy here so he can take a look -- no, DK29. I do apologise.

11 Further examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Adilovic, you said that your company was

13 called Vitez Company. If you take a look at the indication Bektas, Asim,

14 Poculica, Vitez, was that the company that you inherited and that you took

15 over?

16 A. Yes, that's the one. That's the one I took over from Asim.

17 Q. Thank you.

18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions,

19 Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. Your testimony is

21 completed now. On behalf of the Trial Chamber I would like to thank you

22 for having come to The Hague to answer the questions asked by the lawyers

23 acting on behalf of General Kubura. You have also answered the questions

24 from the Prosecution and my own questions as well. Now, on the Judges'

25 behalf I would like to wish you a pleasant journey back home. So I would

Page 18338

1 like to ask the usher to accompany you out of the courtroom.

2 [The witness withdrew]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. Now on tomorrow and

4 the day after tomorrow, we still have two witnesses. We've managed to

5 make up for the delay. Now I'd like to give the floor to the Defence.

6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

7 have planned witness number 10 for tomorrow, number 10 on the list. We

8 have indicated that the hearing should take about an hour and a half, and

9 we will try and make sure that it's less than that. And for Thursday

10 we've got witness number 12. Thank you very much.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. So as I've already

12 mentioned this morning, tomorrow morning we'll start with an ex parte

13 hearing, which will last between 9.00 and 9.10. Then we'll have a

14 technical break and then it will be my pleasure to see the Prosecution and

15 Mr. Kubura's Defence team at quarter to 10.00.

16 General Hadzihasanovic will be there at 9.00 and General Kubura

17 will be joining us at quarter to 10.00. We still have a couple of minutes

18 left. Would you like to deal with anything else at the moment? Nothing?

19 So in that case, thank you all, and I'll see you back here at 9.00

20 tomorrow morning. And this is VP418 that I am giving back to the

21 registrar.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.37 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of

24 April, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.