1 Tuesday, 12 April 2005
2 [Open session]
3 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
4 [The accused entered court]
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call
6 the case, please.
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Case
8 Number IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the appearances
11 for the Prosecution, please.
12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning,
13 Your Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the
14 Prosecution, Stefan Waespi and Daryl Mundis, assisted by our manager,
15 Andres Vatter.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have appearances for
17 Defence counsel, please.
18 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President. Good
19 morning, Your Honours. On behalf of General Hadzihasanovic, Edina
20 Residovic, lead counsel, and Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel. Thank you.
21 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Second Defence team. Good
22 morning, Your Honours. On behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin
23 Ibrisimovic, and our legal assistant, Nermin Mulalic.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Today on the 207th day of the
25 proceedings, I would like to greet everyone present, members of the
1 Prosecution, Defence counsel, the accused, and everyone else in and around
2 the courtroom.
3 I spent part of the night thinking about how we should proceed; I
4 know that the registrar did so, too. And I believe that the best way to
5 save time would be to start tomorrow at 9.00 with an ex parte hearing,
6 which would take 10 minutes. Then we'll have a half an hour break, which
7 means that the actual hearing should start at 9.45 tomorrow. The ex parte
8 hearing will then start at 9.00 tomorrow, and at quarter to 10.00 we can
9 start with the actual hearing. This is necessary because the tapes have
10 to be changed. We'll try and shorten the break in order to save time.
11 Without wasting more time, we'll now call the witness into the courtroom.
12 Defence counsel have said that they will need another 45 minutes
13 to complete their examination-in-chief. So I will be giving them the
14 floor in a minute.
15 [The witness entered court]
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good morning, sir. If you can
17 hear the interpretation, you may sit down and the examination-in-chief, so
18 I will be giving them the floor in a minute.
19 Good morning, sir. If you can hear the interpretation, you may
20 sit down, and the examination-in-chief will now continue.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. I can hear you very
23 WITNESS: SEMIR TERZIC [Resumed]
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic: [Continued]
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Terzic, at the end of the day yesterday we
2 were discussing events in the village of Miletici.
3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] First of all, Mr. President, for
4 the sake of the transcript, I would first like to say that the document
5 that we showed in our list, number 9 in the bundle, in fact this is not a
6 new document; it's a document tendered by Mr. Hadzihasanovic's Defence, so
7 I apologise to my colleagues. It's not necessary to look at the document
9 Q. Mr. Terzic, at the beginning of June 1993, where were you?
10 A. At the beginning of June 1993 I went to Travnik to have a rest. I
11 was on regular leave, but on the 6th or 7th the HVO engaged in combat
12 against the army. So as an operations officer I joined the unit and I
13 established contact immediately with the unit and I continued to perform
14 my duties as an operations officer during the conflict itself.
15 Q. Do you know where the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade was
17 A. The 1st Battalion with a company, a small company, of 60 to 70
18 people who were on leave was then engaged. They were assigned a task by
19 the commander of the Operations Group, by General Alagic. They were
20 engaged in Hajdareve Njive. That was the first task. They had to carry
21 out because in the immediate vicinity of the barracks -- that was in the
22 immediate vicinity of the barracks.
23 Q. Where is Hajdareve Njive --
24 A. Hajdareve Njive is 3 to 400 metres as the crow flies from the --
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the name.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In front of the building where the
2 building of the 1st Battalion was located.
3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Is that 3 or 400 metres from Travnik?
5 A. It's in Travnik, above where the unit was located or rather where
6 the command of the 1st Battalion was located. It's as the crow flies, as
7 I have said. And if you go by road it's further away.
8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,
9 since not everything has been entered in the transcript, if I have
10 understood you correctly, it's 3 to 400 metres as the crow flies from the
11 town of Travnik.
12 A. From the town of Travnik, but it's on a slope. It is 3 to 400
13 metres away in front of the building on the hill of Bukovica, halfway up
14 the Bukovica hill. And to the right there is a place called Gradac or
15 small hill called Gradac.
16 Q. Mr. Terzic, could you have a look at a document in the bundle of
17 documents, the document is document 16, document number 17, and document
18 number 18.
19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,
20 it's document DK19.
21 Q. Could you please have a look at item 2, our forces.
22 A. Could you please repeat that.
23 Q. Could you have a look at item 2, where it says "our forces," if
24 you have found that in the document. Document number 16.
25 A. "Units of the 17th Glorious Mountain Brigade." Is that what
1 you're referring to?
2 Q. Further down below.
3 A. "The 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade is engaged
4 in Hajdareve Njive, linking with itself and covering with" -- I apologise.
5 "The 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade is engaged in the
6 direction towards Hajdareve Njive, linking it to itself and covering it
7 with its mortars. Units of the territorial structure are linked in the
8 17th glorious Mountain Brigade and are independently acting in the village
9 of Bojna."
10 Q. It's not necessary to continue. If -- when you're reading could
11 you read more slowly for the sake of the interpretation.
12 Could you have a look at document 17, it's a new document. Is
13 this a report on the activities of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim
14 Brigade in Hajdareve Njive?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Could you have a look at the following document,
17 document number 18. It's document P465. A combat report from the
18 Bosanska Krajina OG. Could you just have a look at the date. It's the
19 8th of June, 1993. Please just have a look at the last sentence in the
20 last paragraph.
21 A. The 1st Battalion in the 7th Muslim Brigade is attacking the
22 Hajdareve Njive feature and is engaged in the direction of Bukovica.
23 Q. Could you please have a look at the beginning of the report where
24 it says "the command of the OG."
25 A. "The command of the Bosanska Krajina OG, the 8th of June, 1993, at
1 1900 hours, regular operations report."
2 Q. Thank you very much. It means that it was drafted at 1900 hours.
3 Is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Terzic, yesterday and today we have discussed the
6 events in Miletici and in Maline, or rather the events that occurred at
7 the beginning of June 1993. Did you and the brigade or the battalion ever
8 receive a request for the unit to report its superior command to someone
9 else about the events in Miletici and Maline in June 1993?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Terzic, I have a few questions for you about
12 soldiers, members of the 7th Brigade. Were the soldiers of the 7th Muslim
13 Brigade of the ABiH, did they have documents on them which indicated
14 whether they were army members or not?
15 A. The members of the 7th Muslim had to have orders on them
16 regulating the movement of the members of the 7th Muslim Brigade; this was
17 to be in accordance with the corps orders, according to which members of a
18 unit could circulate when on leave and these orders also mentioned how
19 they should carry out their tasks. When on leave they had to have
20 documents on them and authorisation to be on leave. They also had to
21 leave their weapons.
22 Q. Where?
23 A. In the barracks.
24 Q. Please have a look at the documents number 6 and 7 in the bundle.
25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,
1 these documents are new documents, Mr. President.
2 Q. I apologise. Documents 5 and 6 are the ones I'm referring to.
3 When you've seen the -- when you've had a look at the documents, tell me
4 whether this is what you were just referring to in response to my
6 A. "On the basis of an order from the command of the 3rd Corps;
7 strictly confidential" --
8 Q. Could you read through that slowly.
9 A. "Pursuant to an order of the command of 3rd Corps; strictly
10 confidential; number 01419/3; dated the 17th of February, 1993."
11 Q. Mr. Terzic, allow me to interrupt you. Could you just read out
12 item 1.
13 A. "Order. Each member of our brigade when wearing his uniform has
14 to have appropriate documents with him, military ID, and displaying his
15 evidence of membership in the unit."
16 Q. Thank you. Please have a look at document number 6, item 1.
17 A. "Order. All soldiers who are not on duty are forbidden to carry
18 weapons outside the unit, not even in the case of increased tension
19 because if the soldier goes home on leave the unit is obliged to provide
20 him with an escort."
21 Q. Thank you. Mr. Terzic, do you know Mr. Kubura?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In 1993 do you know what Mr. Kubura was?
24 A. The Chief of Staff, the Chief of Staff in the brigade. When he
25 arrived there and perhaps at the end of August or the beginning of
1 September he was appointed as brigade commander.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we only have one
4 more proposal to make. Could this witness and everyone else be shown the
5 following video: P482 is the exhibit number. And after having shown the
6 video, we will have completed our examination-in-chief.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation].
9 Q. I've shown this video to you in the course of the proofing. I
10 only have one question. Could you see whether anyone from the command of
11 the 7th Muslim Brigade or any member of the 7th Muslim Brigade was in the
13 A. No one was in the video.
14 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This
15 completes our examination-in-chief. I'd just like to ask the witness to
16 sign and date the map he was shown yesterday. Thank you.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, could you put your name and
18 last name on the map that you have next to you. Could you sign it and
19 date it. The date today is the 12th of April, 2005.
20 Right then. I would like to turn to the Prosecution. Do you have
21 any objections to this map being tendered?
22 MR. MUNDIS: No objections.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, can we have the
25 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. So it
1 is Defence document DK28. Thank you, sir.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, if I might, for the record, if we
3 could have an indication as to whether the Hadzihasanovic Defence team has
4 any objections to that map being admitted into evidence.
5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. Since they were not asking
6 for the floor, I thought they had nothing to say. You have the floor,
8 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I would just like to stress we
9 have no objections, but silence is not normally recorded in the
10 transcript. So it is very helpful of my colleague to remind us that we
11 should say this out loud.
12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we've had a
13 couple of new documents. I don't know whether we should sort it out now
14 or when we are finished with the witness.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll see about that later after
16 the cross-examination. I'd like to give the floor to the Prosecution now
17 for the cross-examination of this floor -- unless, of course -- since
18 again you did not say anything. Do you have any questions now?
19 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Not at this stage. Thank you,
20 Mr. President.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:
24 Q. Good morning, Witness. My name is Daryl -- my name is Daryl
25 Mundis and along with my colleagues here this morning we represent the
1 Prosecution in this case. I have a few questions for you, sir, but before
2 I start let me assure you that it is not in any way my intention to
3 confuse you. And I would ask you, sir, if you don't understand any of my
4 questions to simply inform me of that and I will rephrase the questions so
5 that you do understand it. Is that clear, sir?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Let's -- let's go back, sir, and start a little bit at the
8 beginning. You told us that you were part of the Muslim forces in
9 Travnik. Can you tell us, sir, when you first joined that formation.
10 A. For the first time I joined the ranks on the 10th of May, 1992,
11 when people were registered, and they were registered officially, as a
12 unit in the BH army.
13 Q. So I take it then, sir, that you joined the Muslim forces in
14 Travnik at the time that unit was created?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. And, sir, what position, if any, did you hold within that unit and
17 what rank, if any, did you hold in May 1992 when you joined that unit?
18 A. At that stage there were no ranks in the army. I was a
19 noncommissioned officer in the former JNA, and so I was an officer there.
20 And I had spent at an officers' school for noncommissioned officers at
21 Bileca for six months.
22 Q. Did there come a time, sir, when you acquired some type of rank?
23 And I'm again specifically referring to the time when you were with the
24 Muslim forces in Travnik.
25 A. No. There were no ranks there.
1 Q. And, sir, what function or what role, if any, did you play within
2 that unit, the Muslim forces in Travnik?
3 A. The technical role was of operative nature, to organise the
4 structure and the attachments and to somehow make it look like an army
5 unit, to organise the structure of the unit in order to make it
6 functional. Preparations -- the induction of the unit of a purely
7 technical nature in order to indicate who was in what unit, what company,
8 what detachment. So I was a kind of instructor there, somebody who had
9 gone to this officers' school, and as somebody who was familiar with the
10 structure of the military organisation I was asked to help out there.
11 Q. And I believe you told us yesterday, sir, that that unit ceased to
12 exist once the brigades of the 3rd Corps were formed approximately in
13 mid-November 1992. Is that what you told us yesterday?
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Now, sir, at any point in time between the 10th of May, 1992, when
16 you joined the Muslim forces and when that unit ceased to exist sometime
17 in mid-November 1992, did you at any point in time during that period
18 obtain or receive any type of rank?
19 A. No. At that stage we did not have any ranks as yet. We had no
20 officers, et cetera. This was a rank that I had been given before, prior
21 to the war, as a reserve officer in the armed forces of the former
22 Yugoslavia as a reserve captain of the foot soldiers -- the ground
23 forces --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, the interpreter made a mistake.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Infantry. And I had gone to this
1 officer's school at Bileca.
2 MR. MUNDIS:
3 Q. Sir, I see that you still have the bundle of Defence documents
4 next to you. Could you please turn to the document under tab 2, which for
5 the record is P695. If you could look at tab 2; you were shown this
6 document yesterday.
7 Now, sir, the entry under number 4 on this list on the first page,
8 would that in fact be you, sir?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And I see, sir, in the far right column a -- this document lists
11 you as being a captain?
12 A. I was a captain on the basis of the reserve forces of the former
13 Yugoslavia because I had attended the reserve officers' school at Bileca
14 in 1983 when they had courses there. It was between six and seven months,
15 and then we did exercises, et cetera. Once you finish that school, you
16 would be the 2nd Lieutenant. And then after -- at each separate exercise
17 you would be promoted in rank.
18 Q. And, sir, of the 80 names that are listed on this document you
19 told us yesterday that some of these people, and this is on page 71, some
20 of them entered the 7th Muslim Brigade, whereas the others probably
21 entered the 306th, the 325th, the 17th, and some other brigades that
22 existed at that time in that area. Do you know of the 80 names that are
23 on this list, P695, how many of those people joined the 7th Muslim
24 Mountain Brigade after it was established in November 1992?
25 A. I can't tell you exactly, between 60 -- 40 and 60 per cent, 50 per
1 cent, I don't know. I suppose you can look into the documents of the 1st
2 Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade. You can find out exactly, but I
3 think on average 50 to 60 per cent and the rest went to other units when
4 they were being formed. But nobody could go anywhere until they were
5 mobilised, then told to do so.
6 Q. And, sir, which unit or what organisation, what structure, would
7 have mobilised these people and told them which unit to go to?
8 A. The mobilisation went through the defence secretariat of the
9 municipality of Travnik and other municipal secretariats which was
10 involved in that. And then, for example, if there was a recruiter
11 expressing a wish in that respect, they would -- first of all, their names
12 would be taken and then they would be channeled to relevant units.
13 Q. Now, sir, you were shown at the very beginning of your testimony
14 yesterday a videotape from August of 1992. Do you remember watching that
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Which, again for the record, is Prosecution Exhibit P762. And you
18 told us that you recognised yourself on that videotape?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. And you told us, sir, that that was an oath, that the scene
21 depicted on that videotape was an oath. And this is on page 69 and 70.
22 You said: "An oath taken by every unit, a traditional one, ordered and
23 prescribed for every single unit of the BH army. There was the commander
24 of the unit, and then we had religious and political leaders of the
25 municipality of Travnik."
1 Can I ask you, sir, which religious and political leaders were
2 present on that day and are visible in the videotape?
3 A. I believe that on that day, and I believe I noticed it yesterday,
4 there was a commander -- the commander of my unit. So I saw Muftija
5 Tradjki [phoen] and then I saw quite a few people from the population and
6 then people who were prominent economic leaders. For example, there was
7 a -- the manager of a clothing factory. They had about 7.000 staff at the
8 time, and I saw some other people. And I think that invitations had been
9 extended to all those who were meant to attend, and I don't know whether
10 because of their own engagements they all had time to attend. As to
11 attendance and all that, I don't really know because at the time there
12 were quite a few units which had already become operational, which were
13 already out in the field, or were involved in preparations because combat
14 activities were underway.
15 Q. Sir, if I were to show you again that five-minute video clip in
16 its entirety, would you be in a position to identify the people that
17 you've told us you recognised or knew?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, with your leave I would again ask that
20 the witness be shown Prosecution Exhibit 762, that is about a five or
21 five-and-a-half minute shown yesterday.
22 Q. And, Witness, as we're preparing that video and as the usher
23 perhaps puts your monitor on the right setting, I would ask you that we
24 take a slightly different course of action from was taken by my learned
25 colleagues yesterday; that is, as you watch the videotape when you see
1 persons or a person that you know or recognise, including yourself, if you
2 will simply tell us to stop and we will pause the videotape so that you
3 can describe for us who it is that you're identifying. Do you understand
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Let me also tell you before we do this, sir, that as the videotape
7 pauses it will get even more grainy and difficult to see than it already
8 is, but we'll try to do the best with what we have. So, sir, if at any
9 point you see someone that you know or recognise, just tell us to stop and
10 we'll pause the videotape, and I'll ask you to describe the person that
11 you've identified.
12 [Videotape played]
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can stop it now perhaps. This
14 is the commander of the unit in front of all of us. His name is Emir
15 Redzic called Tara. And then to his left, Ahmed Adilovic and PDVP.
16 MR. MUNDIS:
17 Q. Let me ask you, sir, when you say the commander of the unit, Emir
18 Redzic, is he the person holding the megaphone in this video?
19 A. Ahmed Adilovic and PDVP and VP, and there is a person holding the
20 microphone there.
21 Q. Do you know who the person is holding the microphone or the
23 A. Ahmed Adilovic.
24 Q. And, sir, where in this picture or on this video did you see
25 Mr. Redzic?
1 A. To the left. Or if we look to the left there is Emir Redzic who
2 was the then-commander of the Muslim forces detachment. I think that he
3 would sign his name as a lieutenant colonel, but he was an active member
4 of the armed forces and he had gone to the military academy.
5 Q. Now, sir, you've also given us in the English transcript two
6 abbreviations. I believe you said PDVP and VP. Can you please tell the
7 Trial Chamber what those acronyms stand for?
8 A. That's the information, propaganda, and religious affairs, in
9 charge of information, propaganda, and religious affairs.
10 Q. And that was the position that Mr. Adilovic?
11 A. Mr. Adilovic.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. MUNDIS: If we could please continue with the videotape.
14 [Videotape played]
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are two fighters who were
16 members of this unit. I think Ravka Rajko [phoen], and I can't remember
17 the name of the other one.
18 MR. MUNDIS: Okay. We can continue, please.
19 [Videotape played]
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The photographer wearing a yellow
21 T-shirt, Enver Palalic.
22 MR. MUNDIS:
23 Q. And was he with the media, sir, or what was his function?
24 A. Most probably, yes.
25 [Videotape played]
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commander, Emir Redzic is in
2 front of us.
3 [Videotape played]
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The mufti of Travnik is here. You
5 can see him here.
6 MR. MUNDIS:
7 Q. And, sir, what is the mufti of Travnik wearing, what type of
9 A. He's wearing this solemn religious robes, either official or
10 solemn or something. I'm not really familiar with that sort of jargon.
11 Q. It would be fair to say that he's the individual in the white
12 robes with the white head covering. Would that be correct?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. And his name is Mufti Abdibegovic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Sir, the person holding the megaphone, do you know who that is?
17 A. No, and I wasn't interested either.
18 [Videotape played]
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here again we can see Ahmet Adilovic
20 and Emir Redzic standing behind the Mufti of Travnik.
21 [Videotape played]
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And there, too.
23 [Videotape played]
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's Mehmed Corhodzic who at the
25 time was the commander of base 3 logistical -- logistics base 3 for the
1 provisions to the Municipal Staff of Territorial Defence, but he was also
2 the director or the managing director of the clothing factory at Travnik.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. MUNDIS:
5 Q. Okay. Thank you very much, sir. Let me ask you a couple of
6 follow-up questions. When we stopped the videotape you told us that you
7 saw the Mufti of Travnik, and I asked you about the person standing next
8 to him holding the megaphone. And you told us that you didn't know who
9 that person was and I'm quoting on page 17, line 9: "I wasn't interested
11 Can you tell us why you weren't interested in who this person was?
12 A. I'm a professional there, and since I was in a position that I had
13 to carry out a technical task or finish up on a job, I mean what was my
14 concern was for me to be able to complete the task that had been entrusted
15 to me that I was working on at the time. So I was not particularly
16 concerned with all those things. There were probably who were in charge
17 of protocol and of all the events that had taken place during the day,
18 people who were in charge of information, propaganda, and all that.
19 Q. Was the person that was visible next to the Mufti one of the
20 religious or political leaders of the municipality of Travnik who was
21 attending this function?
22 A. The person standing next to the mufti, yes. No.
23 Q. Okay. It's a bit unclear from the transcript, sir. Let me ask
24 the question again. The person visible in the video next to the mufti,
25 was he one of the religious or political leaders of the municipality of
1 Travnik who was attending this function?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you have any knowledge, sir, as to why this person was invited
4 to attend this function and to address the Muslim forces in Travnik on
5 this day in August 1992?
6 A. I don't know. I wasn't responsible for such things, so I don't
8 Q. Let me move on to a slightly different topic or a different topic.
9 Once the 7th Muslim Brigade was established in November 1992, you told us
10 that you joined that unit. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And, sir, what was your function in the 7th Muslim Mountain
13 Brigade at the time you joined that unit?
14 A. When I joined the 7th Muslim, I was an officer for operations and
15 training. This is an establishment post.
16 Q. And, sir, based on the description that you told us earlier this
17 morning of your role within the Muslim forces in Travnik, would it be fair
18 to say that what you were doing for the Muslim forces in Travnik also
19 involved operations and training?
20 A. Well, preparing something, technically organising something, means
21 dividing tasks, specifying tasks assigned, et cetera. The commander
22 issues tasks, and in the course of a plan for activity that is drafted in
23 the course of a day, a week, or a month, you carry out the tasks planned
24 by the commander and you carry them out on the basis of orders from your
1 Q. And, sir, did your responsibilities during the time period you
2 were with the Muslim forces in Travnik include operations and training of
3 that unit in order to get them ready for combat?
4 A. If there was a plan issued by the commander and a period for
5 preparation had been specified, a period for training, or if troops were
6 to be trained in the use of weapons then these preparations would be
7 carried out in accordance with the plan issued by the commander. The
8 commander would issue plans that had to be carried out.
9 Q. Sir, at any point in time from May 1992 through November 1992 when
10 you were with the Muslim forces in Travnik, were you assisted in any of
11 these -- in carrying out any of these plans or training by foreigners, by
12 members of the Mujahedin?
13 A. I don't know. I don't know. I couldn't answer that question. I
14 wasn't familiar with those tasks. I don't know. There's nothing I could
15 say. We provide -- we obtained regular supplies from the logistics base
16 in the Travnik Municipal Staff.
17 Q. During the time period from the summer of 1992 through November of
18 1992, did you have any personal communication or involvement with any of
19 the foreign fighters who came into Bosnia who was later known as the
21 A. Perhaps I would come across them in town. Perhaps I had some form
22 of contact with them, quite by chance, but nothing of any substance.
23 Q. Were you aware, sir, at any point in time while you were with the
24 Muslim forces in Travnik whether any soldiers from the Muslim forces in
25 Travnik received any type of training from these foreign fighters who were
1 later known as the Mujahedin?
2 A. No, no. That wasn't necessary because most of the men from the --
3 most of us were from the former army. We completed our military service,
4 and the others, commanders of detachments, platoons, et cetera, would
5 train their own troops.
6 Q. Sir, do you -- have you ever heard at any point in time of the
7 name of one of the foreigners -- foreign fighters who was in Central
8 Bosnia by the name of Abdul Aziz?
9 A. No. Perhaps I heard this name quite by chance, but not really.
10 Q. Let's return now to the time period after November 1992 when the
11 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade was established. You told us, sir, that
12 initially your responsibilities were for operations and training within
13 the brigade. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes. Officer for operations and training, well that means that
15 you have to train units according to the plans of the brigade and the
17 Q. Now, at this point in time, sir, in November, mid-November 1992,
18 where was your office, or where did you physically go at this point in
19 time to conduct your military duties?
20 A. In November when the 7th Muslim was established by an order
21 issued, I went to Zenica where the command was located. I was given an
22 office where the Brigade Staff was located. And in the staff I assumed
23 the duties of an officer for operations and training.
24 Q. And, sir, how long did you remain in that post holding the duties
25 responsible for operations and training within the 7th Muslim Mountain
2 A. I remained in that post of an officer for operations and training
3 up until the 14th of February, 1994, when I became assistant commander for
4 logistics in the -- in a light --
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name of the
7 MR. MUNDIS:
8 Q. Sir, for the record, could you please repeat the unit that you
9 joined after the 14th of February, 1994.
10 A. On the 14th of February, 1994, I joined the 37th Light Muslim
11 Liberation Brigade as assistant commander for logistics.
12 Q. Sir, at any point in time from the middle of November 1992 until
13 the 14th of February, 1994, when you joined the 37th Light Muslim
14 Liberation Brigade, did you serve as the commander of a battalion within
15 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?
16 A. No. I didn't have such duties, but the task of the Chief of
17 Staff, when you are told to go to a zone of responsibility and to carry
18 out tasks that had to be carried out at the time, well, you'd receive a
19 field task. You would have to go to the forward command post and you
20 would have to go to the zone of responsibility of your brigade, the zone
21 of responsibility assigned to you by the corps. We had a zone of
22 responsibility, as I said yesterday, and I used the map to show you the
23 zone that was from Kazici to elevation 1260 and we had that zone of
24 responsibility, the 7th Muslim Brigade.
25 Q. But you're telling us, sir, that at not point in time were you the
1 commander of a battalion within the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?
2 A. No, I wasn't.
3 Q. And during this period from mid-November 1992 through 14 February
4 1994 your duty post remained in the headquarters of the 7th Muslim
5 Mountain Brigade in Zenica?
6 A. Yes. But if the unit wasn't assigned combat tasks then the staff
7 would be moved, the unit would be moved, and then tasks would be carried
8 out later perhaps over a period of 20 days or a month, it depended. In
9 the meantime troops would be on leave, they would go home, et cetera.
10 Q. Okay. But I just want to make sure, sir, that I understand what
11 you'll telling us, and that is that throughout the period from
12 mid-November 1992 until the 14th of February, 1994, you were assigned to
13 the staff of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, sir, you were asked a few questions earlier this morning
16 about the accused, Brigadier Kubura, and you told us sometime in the
17 August or beginning of September 1993 he was assigned responsibilities of
18 commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. Is that correct?
19 A. There's an order which states when he was appointed as commander.
20 So I can't be precise. This is not my field. I don't know when he was
21 promoted and appointed as commander. I think there is an order. I think
22 that's the period concerned, but you should refer to the order in which he
23 was appointed as commander.
24 Q. And, sir, prior to that time period when Brigadier Kubura was
25 assigned or appointed as commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade,
1 what position did he hold?
2 A. Assistant -- a Chief of Staff of the 7th Muslim Brigade. He was
3 the Chief of Staff of the 7th Muslim Brigade.
4 Q. And at the same time he was also the deputy commander of the 7th
5 Muslim Mountain Brigade, wasn't he?
6 A. When the commander was absent or prevented from performing his
7 duties, he would replace the commander, but he wasn't the commander. When
8 the commander leaves, he would appoint or issue an order stating who would
9 act as commander on his behalf during his absence.
10 Q. Now, sir, at the time you joined the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade
11 in mid-November 1992, who was the commander of that brigade?
12 A. Asim Koricic. I think it was Asim Koricic at the time, but I
13 think you have orders stating which individuals are being appointed as
14 commanders. A lot of time has passed since then, so I can't remember
16 Q. And how long, sir, did Asim Koricic remain the commander of the
17 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?
18 A. Right up until the point in time when Brigadier Kubura was
19 appointed to that post in an official document.
20 Q. And, sir, let me ask you this: When was the last time you
21 personally saw or spoke with Asim Koricic?
22 A. You mean recently or at that time? Well, let's say a year ago if
23 we're talking about the year 2004. We happen to bump into each other, so
24 we had a chat.
25 Q. Let me ask you, sir, about the time period from mid-November 1992
1 until 14 February 1994 when you left the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.
2 During that time period -- well, let's be more specific. From the time
3 you joined the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade in mid-November 1992 until the
4 time Brigadier Kubura was appointed commander of that brigade, how
5 frequently did you see Mr. Koricic?
6 A. Up until the time he went abroad. I wouldn't know whether that
7 was January, February, or March, but I know for sure that it wasn't after
8 March or April. He wasn't in the brigade then or I didn't meet him.
9 Since my duties did not have to do with the commander that had to do with
10 the Chief of Staff and the Chiefs of Staffs of other services, I heard
11 that he went abroad. I had heard that he went abroad and that there was
12 only the Chief of Staff, Brigadier Amir Kubura.
13 Q. So you're telling us, sir, that sometime in the first few months
14 of 1993, Commander Koricic went abroad. Is that what you're telling us?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. And from the time period that he went abroad until commander --
17 until Brigadier Kubura was appointed as the commander, did you have or did
18 you receive any communications or any orders or any assignments from
19 Mr. Koricic?
20 A. No, no.
21 Q. Did you, sir, as the person responsible for operations and
22 training within that brigade know where Mr. Koricic was?
23 A. I didn't know for sure whether it was -- whether he was in
24 Austria, Germany, or Switzerland, but I knew he was abroad. Given all the
25 duties I had to perform, I didn't try to find out much about this.
1 Q. Sir, during the time period after the first few months of 1993
2 when Mr. Koricic went abroad, did he leave you or anyone in the command
3 with a forwarding address or a telephone number where he should be
4 contacted to carry out his duties as commander of the 7th Muslim Mountain
6 A. No. He didn't leave any contact details for me, and that wasn't
7 necessary because I was far below the rank of a commander.
8 Q. And during this time period, sir, following Mr. Koricic's trip
9 abroad until Mr. Kubura was appointed as the commander of the 7th Muslim
10 Mountain Brigade, who was in charge? Who commanded the 7th Muslim
11 Mountain Brigade?
12 A. The Chief of Staff according to the post he was assigned to, but
13 he had assistant commanders who covered various fields at the time.
14 Q. And, sir, when you say the Chief of Staff you're referring to
15 Brigadier Kubura. Is that right?
16 A. Yes, I'm referring to Brigadier Kubura.
17 Q. And just so that we're clear then, sir, once Mr. Koricic went
18 abroad sometime between January and April 1993 until his formal
19 appointment in August or September 1993, Amir Kubura commanded the 7th
20 Muslim Mountain Brigade?
21 A. In terms of the duties he had as Chief of Staff, he replaced the
22 commander. He assigned tasks and issued instructions together with his
23 assistant commanders.
24 Q. Let me ask you now, sir, a couple of questions concerning Ramo
25 Durmis. The Defence asked you some questions about Ramo Durmis and you
1 told us that -- let me start a different way. You told us that at some
2 point in time that Mr. Durmis left the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. Is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And again, sir, to the best of your recollection, when did Ramo
6 Durmis leave the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?
7 A. Ramo Durmis left perhaps at the beginning of January 1993 after
8 the action in Visegrad [as interpreted] on the 28th of December, 1992.
9 When this action came to an end, we had a number of dead and wounded men.
10 And at the beginning of January, Ramo Durmis and some of his soldiers left
11 the 7th Muslim Brigade.
12 Q. Now, sir, it says in the English transcript at page 27, line 2 "it
13 was after the action in Visegrad." I believe that was actually Visoko.
14 Is that correct?
15 A. In Visoko, Visoko.
16 Q. Now, what is the basis, sir, for you telling us that Mr. Durmis
17 and some of his soldiers left the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade at the
18 beginning of January 1993?
19 A. Yesterday I had a look at a number of documents and reference was
20 made to him leaving the unit in January. This was a revolt. He showed
21 his characteristic stubbornness. He left the 7th Muslim Brigade and took
22 those young men with him, and he didn't return to the 7th Muslim because
23 at the time he was the commander of the 1st Company. He accused others of
24 significant losses in Visegrad and Visoko, and there was a revolt that he
25 couldn't control and that is why he left the 7th Muslim Brigade.
1 Q. Let me ask you, sir, you told us that: "He showed his
2 characteristic stubbornness."
3 Did you know Ramo Durmis prior to the war in Bosnia?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Were you aware, sir, that in the middle of April 1993 the 1st
6 Company of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade and its
7 commander, Ramo Durmis, were specifically cited by the commander of the
8 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, they were awarded?
9 A. I heard about that proposal, a result of the battle at the
10 battlefield in Visoko -- rather the Visegrad elevation. I heard that a
11 proposal had been made for his efforts, but I don't know when he was given
12 this award.
13 MR. MUNDIS: I would ask, Mr. President, with the assistance of
14 the usher and the registrar that the witness with shown Prosecution
15 Exhibit P727.
16 Perhaps if that document could be put on the ELMO. Unfortunately
17 due to time constraints, Mr. President, we weren't able to make sufficient
18 copies, but I would ask that it be put onto the ELMO so everybody can take
19 a look at it. I would specifically ask -- well, first of all, if the
20 witness can take a look at the document so he can see what it is we're
21 asking him to look at.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Given the efforts and results
23 obtained in battle on Allah's way and the unselfish dedication shown when
24 carrying out combat operations, and given the fact that his patriotic
25 duties have been performed in our Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 in order to commemorate the anniversary of the day of the Army of the
2 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, I hereby order that the following
3 stimulative measures be taken. An award in the form of money is to be
4 granted to the following members of the 7th Muslim Brigade: Serif
5 Patkovic, Azar Bektas, Ramiz Savic, Nusret Ibricic, Suad Jusovic" --
6 MR. MUNDIS:
7 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you to go on this document to section 4 on
8 that page. And if we look under Roman numeral IV, small letter "b," and
9 under that the first bullet point. Do you see the reference there to the
10 1st Company of the 1st Battalion and its commander Ramo Durmis?
11 A. Yes, I can see that.
12 Q. And do you see that this document was in fact signed? Perhaps if
13 the --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And the document is actually signed by Brigadier Kubura, is it
17 A. That's possible. I don't know.
18 Q. Let me turn, sir, in the final few moments that I have remaining
19 to another document that's in the bundle of documents that the Defence
20 provided you with. I would ask you, sir, if you could turn in that bundle
21 of documents to tab 14. There are a number of documents or a number of
22 pages behind tab 14, and I'm specifically interested in the second page of
23 this document, which for the record I believe is P474.
24 Was this a document, sir, that was drafted by yourself or prepared
25 for your approval by a member of your staff?
1 A. I would like to go back to the first document. This is a document
2 that I drafted; it's my operations report to the brigade and the Bosnian
3 Krajina OG. It's been signed and I stand by this document. I don't stand
4 by the other document because there is no signature. I can see that the
5 address of the person it was forwarded to is not -- has not been written
6 down and it's not the typical type of military document you usually see.
7 This document has a date, 336/93, and has a protocol number, the name of
8 the unit and number. I can stand by the first document, the one that
9 precedes this one. But the second document is not a document that I
10 drafted. I didn't sign it. It's not my document.
11 Q. All right. Well, let me ask you this then, sir: Were you aware
12 at any point in time in the first six months of 1993 whether there were
13 any units of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade in the
14 area of Mehurici?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you, sir.
17 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I will now ask
19 Defence counsel whether they have any re-examination for this witness.
20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
21 only have a few additional questions. I don't know whether this is the
22 appropriate time or whether we should commence after the break.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please go ahead -- or in fact
24 you would prefer to continue after the break. In that case, it is 10.25.
25 We'll now have our break and we will resume at about 10 to 11.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 10.53 a.m.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So the Defence has the floor.
4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
5 have just a couple of questions and I would like for the document that my
6 colleague has shown to the witness, P727, to be shown again -- to be shown
7 to the witness again.
8 Re-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Terzic, before the break when you were
10 answering the questions by my colleague you said that the proposal for an
11 award when he mentioned the name of Ramo Durmis you said that it was in
12 connection with what was taking place in the course of the battle for
13 Visegrad and Visoko. That battle was at what time?
14 A. On the 28th of December, 1992.
15 Q. Was that proposal for an award and that award referred to
16 something that happened in the past or in 1993 or at that time?
17 A. The praise and the awards were referred to the battle which took
18 place on the 28th of December and the results were outstanding, and it was
19 a huge success for the entire unit, I mean these are the commanders of the
20 unit that was engaged there in the area of Visegrad, the place called
21 Visoko in 1992.
22 Q. I would just like you to look at document 1 in items 1, 2, and 3.
23 You have references to awards and praises for individuals?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. In item 4 it says: "I praise the following units ..." Does point
1 4 refer to individuals or units within the 7th Brigade?
2 A. Item 4: "I praise the following units from the Battalion, the 7th
3 Muslim Battalion the rank of Battalion."
4 In point B the rank of company, the 1st Company of the 1st
5 Battalion, and the company commander is Durmis Ramo.
6 Q. Could I ask you something else and my colleague has asked you the
7 same question as well. When Mr. Kubura was acting as commander in the
8 period of time we have been referring to, did you address him as Chief of
9 Staff or commander?
10 A. Chief, sir.
11 Q. And another question. Do you know the exact date when Mr. Koricic
12 left the 7th Muslim Brigade?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions, sir.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other Defence lawyers?
16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we've already had
17 cross-examination and we have no questions now. If we do, it will be
18 after the Judges' questions.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned I have
20 some clarification points.
21 Questioned by the Court:
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like you to confirm
23 clearly that when you were at the 7th Brigade your job was to deal with
24 the structure and the formation within the Chief of Staff. Was that your
25 official job within the 7th Brigade?
1 A. Yes, yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you take a look at the
3 document number 17 in this binder. It is dated the 6th of June, 1993. It
4 is a combat report in fact. Could you tell me who signed this document.
5 A. This doesn't look like my signature.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's not your signature?
7 A. No. I did draft the report, but it may well happen that somebody
8 else has signed it because I was not allowed to sign as a battalion
9 commander because I was not even an acting battalion commander or a
10 commander of a unit in the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You're saying that you did have
12 a draft combat report. It was not you who typed it up?
13 A. No.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, is it the person who
15 actually typed it up that should be signed as battalion commander?
16 A. I don't know, believe me. It was up to me to give a summary of
17 events during the day, to draw up a report for our superiors so they would
18 be informed about what we had been doing on any given day.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The 6th of June -- well, who was
20 the battalion commander on that day?
21 A. I think that at that time you will have to look up -- look it up
22 in the personal records. I think Zubaca Ahmed or somebody else. You will
23 have to check it out in the documents belonging to the unit.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. Since we're dealing
25 with the documents now, could you look at document number 2. In document
1 number 2 in the B/C/S version, not the English version but the B/C/S
2 version, next to your name there is a reference indicating your date of
3 birth, the rank of captain, and a number, 31102. What does it correspond
4 to, that number?
5 A. Military experts will be able to tell you that this is an infantry
6 reference, the type of -- the type of training the got at the reserve
7 officers' school at Bileca in the former Yugoslavia. The -- an infantry
8 captain, so I think this signifies infantry, but military experts can shed
9 more light on it. But this is a number for the military files.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] This document that you have in
11 front of you on page 1 it says the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
12 the armed forces and the Muslim forces of Travnik. As far as you're
13 concerned, is this a military document?
14 A. Yes, it is entirely in the form of a military document.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Within the armed forces of
16 Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992 and 1993 - but here we're talking about
17 15th of September 1992 - well, what was the official language of the armed
18 forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina? What was the official language?
19 A. Bosniak/Croatian/Serbian in the same way. At that time I believe
20 that is what it was, or Serbo-Croat. It is a matter of an official
21 definition. You would have to determine it in some other way.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what about the Arab
23 language? Was it used at all within the armed forces of Bosnia and
25 A. No.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you take a look. On page
2 4 there is a stamp on page 4 -- 3, sorry. You'll see that there is a
3 stamp. There is a saber there and there is some kind of writing in the
4 B/C/S language. And on top of that how do you explain the rest of the
6 A. Since this is at the very start when the armed forces and the army
7 units were being set up at that time, local units or, for example, Bosnian
8 Dragons or Gradina detachment, or some other names. I mean, this had not
9 been standardised yet. There was not a protocol. The armed forces of
10 Bosnia and Herzegovina were only being set up. It is a failure on the
11 part of the commander who would have had to instruct the units on how to
12 communicate and how to introduce markings and references for their units.
13 I believe this was done later, but that was the whole point creating those
14 brigades in order to have a uniform approach.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I would like to move on to
16 another topic. Earlier on when answering the questions you have explained
17 that in the beginning of June 1993 you were on holiday and then when you
18 found out about the HVO offensive you reported straight away to the 7th
19 Brigade. And whilst listening to your reply, I notice that you even added
20 that the battalion was resting. Now, my question is this: War had been
21 declared and even so there were holiday periods when nobody was there.
22 How did it work?
23 A. Well, perhaps I didn't express myself clearly. They were not
24 rested. They were not resting. They had people engaged in three areas.
25 First of all in Vitez in the village of Batalica, then Ravno Rostovo, you
1 see, and third unit which was in the area of responsibility of the 7th
2 Muslim Brigade, and a part of the unit where soldiers were allowed to take
3 leave. In the beginning of June or slightly earlier with the approval of
4 the -- of our superiors there was a change there and so for the people who
5 had not had any leave for 60 days. So we left the answer to the unit in
6 their area of responsibility. And from the 17th Krajiska unit we got 60
7 unarmed soldiers who took those weapons and were using in their territory.
8 So the people who were on leave could have some time off, but most of
9 those people were still in the barracks because they had no other homes
10 and they were still available. And when combat operations started, they
11 were given the first combat task, that is to say to attack Hajdareve
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you yourself, your office
14 was located where exactly when you were within the 7th Brigade? Where was
15 your office?
16 A. My office when I was at the Command Staff was at Zenica unless on
17 the basis of orders from the Chief of Staff, somebody else, I was asked to
18 go to the area of responsibility, Kazici 1260, or the barracks in Travnik
19 in case I was asked to do whatever there was to do with regard to the
20 Travnik Battalion as operations expert, to check whether the technical
21 approach within the unit was right.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Earlier on on this video you saw
23 yourself on the tape. So initially you were in Travnik?
24 A. Yes.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Afterwards you were within the 7
1 Brigade. Now, on the day that you left Travnik --
2 A. Yes, it was once the 7th Brigade was set up.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. So on the day you left
4 Travnik to go to Zenica where you had an office, who did you meet? Who
5 did you meet the first time that you went to Zenica? Who was the highest
6 ranking officer welcoming you to Zenica?
7 A. On the occasion of the setting up of the unit when the command
8 issued the orders with regard to the setting up of the 7th Brigade, then
9 the commander, the Chief of Staff, and the commander's assistants did all
10 that. And so when I received the orders, or rather the task to go and
11 report to them in Zenica, I had to report to the commander, or rather the
12 Chief of Staff of the brigade to --
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No. You reported to the Chief
14 of Staff, who was it?
15 A. It was in November or December when I got there. At the time it
16 was Asim Koricic who received me and he gave me the task.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good. Now, Asim Koricic, did he
18 have an office.
19 A. Yes, he did.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And where was his office? What
21 building? What floor? Could you specify that a bit better as to
22 Koricic's office?
23 A. It was on the second floor in the Bilmiste building, the Bilmiste
24 school building.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In Bilmiste then. So you first
1 saw Koricic and then who did you see? Who did you see afterwards?
2 A. After that I met with his assistants and I talked to them and we
3 talked about the technical part of the job. We started with the
4 preparations for the creation and the setting up after the brigade in line
5 with the relevant provisions.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. And at that stage you
7 met with General Kubura?
8 A. No, not then. I met him afterwards, by the end of December or the
9 beginning of January, I can't tell you. It's all in the documents; it's
10 all recorded. Since things were happening very fast that there were
11 combat activities, preparations, and various responsibilities, and all
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. Now, Koricic, how many
14 times did you see him before he disappeared?
15 A. According to needs. When my task or my line of duty required it
16 or perhaps sometimes in the evening I ran into him. I can't tell you with
17 any degree of precision. Perhaps 15 to 20 times, according to the
18 requirements of my job.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as far as you can remember,
20 the last time you met Koricic was at what time? December? January?
21 February? March? April? What? Could you specify that. Obviously all
22 this was a long time ago, but you can't specify anything at all?
23 A. Your Honour, I can't really be very specific about that, January,
24 March, April. You see, my job was not closely connected to what the
25 commander was doing. I wasn't getting my tasks assigned directly from the
1 commander. I was doing something else. I was not in a position where I
2 could communicate with him a great deal. January, February, March, I'm
3 not at all sure. I can't specify exactly when it was that he left.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And you told us that according
5 to your knowledge General Kubura was appointed commander of the brigade in
6 the month of August. When General Kubura was in fact appointed as
7 commander of the 7th Brigade, did Koricic come back or have you never seen
8 him again between his departure and the month of August?
9 A. He did not come back by August, but as to whether he showed up
10 again in October or November, I'm not sure, because there was a total
11 blockade and there was a full-blown conflict with the HVO and so I had not
12 seen him.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So as far as you can remember
14 because you were in the area, Koricic's office was occupied by somebody
15 else or was it left as it was without anyone else using it as far as you
16 can tell?
17 A. I don't remember. I wasn't paying attention to that. I don't
18 know. But I do know -- I was in touch with Mr. Kubura up until September,
19 August, September. And when the new Chief of Staff was appointed I was
20 talking to him and so on. The regular work within the army, but combat
21 operations were already underway so I wasn't paying any special attention
22 to that.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right. And now this is my last
24 question and it is about this video. You told us in reply to one of the
25 questions that this event for the Military Staff that was present there
1 was within the framework of an oath taking. Whether --
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Now, when it comes to the armed
4 forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina, is there -- is this oath-taking ceremony
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in the former JNA it was the
9 A. Yes.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And what does it consist of, the
11 oath-taking? Could you describe it very briefly, the ceremony I mean.
12 A. I think there was a standard text for the oath, it gets read out,
13 and the commander reads it out, and the soldiers repeat it after him and
14 that's it I think. I think there is a text from 1992. We should look for
15 it in the archives; I think they have the complete text of the oath, but
16 that is what it's about. There is a standard text.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
18 Right then. Judges have no more questions, so I would like to
19 give the floor to the Prosecution once again.
20 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution has no
21 more questions.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the Defence team?
23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. No questions either.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team.
25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions. Thank
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. Your testimony has
3 just been completed. I'd like to thank you for coming here and answering
4 to our questions on behalf of the Trial Chamber, for answering to both the
5 questions on the part of the Defence and the Prosecution as well as the
6 Judges. I wish you all the best and a pleasant trip home, and I'm going
7 to ask the usher to accompany you out of the courtroom.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome and thank you very
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As to documents, I'd like to
12 give the floor to the Defence team.
13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. We propose to
14 tender into evidence the documents we've got here, number 4, order dated
15 the 19th of February, 1993; then number 5, the order dated the 19th of
16 February, 1993; the document number 6, the order dated the 19th of
17 February, 1993; document number 7, weekly report 261/93, dated the 23rd of
18 February, 1993; number 8, report number 378/93, dated the 14th of March,
19 1993; number 17, combat report number 357/193, dated the 6th of June,
20 1993; and number 20, order number 735/93, dated 17th of August, 1993.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] If I understand you correctly it
22 was 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 17, and 20?
23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] You're quite right,
24 Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.
2 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, I'm just wondering if perhaps with
3 respect to document number 8 and document number 20 if our learned
4 colleagues can give us an indication as to the source of those documents.
5 I note that the other documents that they have tendered all contain ERN
6 numbers and consequently I can quickly trace where those came from and in
7 fact were disclosed to the Defence by the Prosecution. But I don't seem
8 to see any such numbers on documents 8 and 20, and I wonder if we could
9 get an indication as to where those documents were located or the source
10 of those documents.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right, on 8 and 20.
12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
13 have forgotten to mention the fact that these are the new documents and
14 they come from the archives from the armed forces of the Bosnia and
15 Herzegovina in the 7th Brigade, and we had some earlier documents in much
16 the same way as Mr. Hadzihasanovic's Defence team. So we did some
17 research in the archives of Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as the 7th
18 Muslim Brigade.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. So the archives of
20 the 7th Brigade.
21 Mr. Mundis.
22 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Your Honour. The Prosecution has no
23 objection to these documents being admitted into evidence.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team.
25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No comment, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. So
3 we've got a series of seven documents tendered by --
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In English, please.
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] I'm going to give you the
6 references in English.
7 [In English] The first document dated the 19th of February, 1993,
8 is admitted into evidence under the reference DK 29 with an English
9 version DK29/E.
10 The second document dated the same date with internal reference
11 number 241/93 is admitted into evidence under the reference DK30 with an
12 English translation DK30/E.
13 The document dated the same date with the internal reference
14 number PM-80/93 is admitted into evidence under the reference DK31 with an
15 English translation DK31/E.
16 The document dated 23rd of February, 1993, is admitted into
17 evidence under the reference DK32, with an English translation DK32/E.
18 The document dated 14th of March, 1993, is admitted into evidence
19 under the reference DK33, with an English translation DK33/E.
20 The document dated 6th of June, 1993, is admitted into evidence
21 under the reference DK34, with an English translation DK34/E.
22 And the last document dated 17th of August, 1993, is admitted into
23 evidence under the reference DK35, with an English translation DK35/E.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir. I'm going to
25 ask the usher to bring in the witness.
1 The Defence is planning on an hour and a half I believe. Can you
2 confirm that, the duration?
3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I believe that
4 the examination-in-chief will last three-quarters of an hour at the most.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Good day, sir. I would first like to make sure that the equipment
8 is functioning properly. Are you receiving the interpretation of what I'm
9 saying? If so, please say yes.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you and understand you.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, you have been called here
12 as a witness for Brigadier Kubura's Defence. Before you take the solemn
13 declaration could you please tell me your first and last name and date of
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Enver Adilovic. I was
16 born on the 10th of January, 1960.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Where were you born?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the village of Kljaci in the
19 municipality of Travnik.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are you currently employed or
21 have you retired? What do you do?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm currently unemployed. I was in
23 the federation army up until 2001, but I'm not employed at the moment.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993 did you hold a
25 position of any kind? Were you a member of the military and, if so, which
1 unit were you a member of?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992 I was a member of the Vitez
3 detachment, the Novi Grad detachment of the Vitez Territorial Defence
4 Staff. That was right up until the time when the 7th Muslim Brigade was
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When were you assigned to the
7 7th Muslim Brigade? Do you remember the precise date?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was immediately on the
9 16th of November, 1992.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Did you have a specific post and
11 a rank in the 7th Brigade?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Later I had the establishment post
13 of a company commander. I think that was towards the end of February.
14 And at the time -- I'm not sure about the ranks but I had the
15 establishment rank of a company commander. So I left the war, or rather
16 the federation army with the rank of captain.
17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified
18 before an international or national court with regard to the events that
19 took place in your country in 1992 and 1993, or is this the first time?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time. I've never
21 testified before.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please read out the
23 text of the solemn declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
25 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: ENVER ADILOVIC
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.
4 Before I give the floor to Defence counsel, who will conduct their
5 examination-in-chief, I would like to provide you with some information
6 about the procedure that we will be following here. You will first have
7 to answer the questions put to you by Defence counsel for Brigadier
8 Kubura. We have been told by the Defence that they will need 40 or 45
9 minutes for their examination-in-chief. Once they have completed their
10 examination-in-chief I will give the floor to the Prosecution, who are to
11 your right. The Prosecutor will also put questions to you, probably for
12 the same length of time. Once the Prosecution has completed its
13 cross-examination, Defence counsel for Mr. Kubura may re-examine you.
14 There is another Defence team defending General Hadzihasanovic, who may
15 also ask you questions.
16 Once all these questions have been put to you the Judges, who are
17 sitting before you, may, if they deem it necessary and if they believe
18 it's in the interest of justice, put questions to you, the purpose of
19 which is to clarify answers that you have given or to fill in gaps that we
20 feel that your testimony contains.
21 I would also like to mention two other important factors. You
22 have taken the solemn declaration and you have said that you will speak
23 the truth, which means that you should not give false testimony. False
24 testimony is a punishable offence. In addition, there is another
25 provision that I should mention; it's a complicated provision but I will
1 try to explain it to you in the clearest possible terms. When a question
2 is put to you, if you feel that your answer could be subsequently used
3 against you to incriminate you, you can say that you don't want to answer
4 the question. You may refuse to answer the question. However, in such a
5 case, and we have never had such cases to date, but I must mention this
6 possibility because it's always something that could happen, in this case
7 the Trial Chamber may compel you to answer the question; however, you are
8 granted a form of immunity. Whatever you say can't be used against you.
9 As the procedure that we follow here is an oral procedure based on
10 your testimony, Defence may show you documents, military documents for
11 example, and ask you to identify the documents and comment on them. If
12 you feel that a question is too complicated or if you fail to understand a
13 question, ask the party putting the question to you to rephrase it. If
14 you encounter any difficulties in the course of your testimony, don't
15 hesitate to mention the fact. For technical reasons we have to have a
16 break every hour and a half. As we started the hearing at 11.10 -- or as
17 we resumed at 10 past 11.00, we will have a break at about half past
18 12.00. So there will only be one break today.
19 If everything goes smoothly, if the schedule is respected by all
20 the parties, it might not be necessary for you to return tomorrow if we
21 complete your examination today; if not, you will have to return tomorrow.
22 Without wasting anymore time, I will now give the floor to the Defence.
23 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Adilovic, I would like to ask you to speak up
1 when you answer the questions, and to make a brief pause after I put a
2 question to you. This should make it easier for the interpreters to do
3 their job. In response to a question to the Presiding Judge you said
4 where you were in 1992 and 1993, so I will very briefly repeat the
5 question. In 1992, from the time that the war broke out, where were you
6 in fact?
7 A. I lived in Vitez, and in 1992 I immediately joined the Territorial
8 Defence Staff in Vitez. A volunteer detachment was established and I
9 joined that detachment. I remained in the Vitez Territorial Defence Staff
10 and I went into the field of Visoko. I remained there until I was
11 transferred to the 7th Muslim Brigade. But I forwarded a written request
12 to be transferred to the 7th Muslim Brigade, and that was granted.
13 Q. When did that take place and who granted you that request?
14 A. Well, it was in November. That took place in November. I don't
15 know the name of the officials who granted me leave, but when I was
16 granted this leave I think that Haso Ribo was the commander of the
17 Territorial Defence Staff.
18 Q. Did you become a member of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim
20 A. Yes, I did. I became a member of the 1st Battalion of the 7th
21 Muslim Brigade.
22 Q. Were you assigned to any particular company?
23 A. Since at the very beginning the units weren't up to strength and
24 when I left Vitez I was -- I had been a platoon commander down there, so
25 in the 7th Muslim Brigade -- in the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim
1 Brigade I thought that I would be a platoon commander or a company
2 commander. And this is what I had been led to believe. Since the unit
3 wasn't up to strength, they waited for a certain period of time for the
4 unit to be brought up to strength and for me to be appointed as a company
5 commander --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- as a platoon commander or as a
8 company commander.
9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Where were you deployed?
11 A. I was staying in my house, and when I reported to the 1st
12 Battalion, I would go to the barracks. I would report there. That was a
13 temporary situation, and then I would go home on leave and so on and so
14 forth until I was permanently assigned to a unit or rather a company.
15 After I had been assigned to a company, I was issued tasks, and I had to
16 carry out the task.
17 Q. Your battalion, or rather company, did it have any particular zone
18 of responsibility in Travnik or in the greater Travnik area?
19 A. Our unit did have a zone of responsibility; it was above Travnik
20 in the village called Bijelo Bucje and that was the zone we had. It faced
21 the Serbs who were up there and the men were rotated in that area.
22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your leave
23 we would like to show the witness the map so that he can indicate the
24 exact location of his company during this period of time. This is the
25 only document that we will be using in the course of our
1 examination-in-chief of this witness.
2 Q. Mr. Adilovic, could you please have a look at the map and mark the
3 exact location of the Bijelo Bucje. Mark the location with a felt-tipped.
4 You can use the pen to mark the location with a circle.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. How far was this area from Travnik?
7 A. I don't know how far it was exactly, perhaps about 15 kilometres
8 or so. But there were other roads leading from Travnik to Bijelo Bucje,
9 other roads which had to be used for security reasons.
10 Q. Could you just mark this location with a number 1 above the
12 A. Above.
13 Q. Mr. Adilovic, in the course of your proofing we discussed document
14 P11, instructions to the Muslim fighter. And I asked you then and I'm
15 asking you now whether you've ever seen this booklet before.
16 A. I only saw that booklet during preparations, but at that time I
17 never saw it nor did a single member of my unit see that booklet or anyone
18 else. If anyone had seen such booklet, I would probably have known of the
20 Q. When you said in the course of the preparations, you mean in the
21 course of the preparations for your testimony?
22 A. Yes, for my testimony.
23 Q. Mr. Adilovic, are you a religious man?
24 A. Yes, I am.
25 Q. At the beginning of April or in mid-April 1993, where were you and
1 what establishment post did you have, Mr. Adilovic?
2 A. Could you please repeat that question.
3 Q. At the beginning of April or in mid-April 1993, where were you
4 together with your unit and what establishment post did you have at the
6 A. At that time I was a company commander; that was my establishment
7 post. I was the commander of a company that was from Vitez since I am
8 from Vitez. So the entire company was from Vitez. And about the 10th of
9 April I was assigned a task, or rather I was on temporary leave -- at the
10 time I was on leave and my task was to go to the Bijelo Bucje area of
11 responsibility to replace a unit of ours, or rather a company of ours. I
12 arrived in Travnik with the unit on the 10th of April. And naturally we
13 went to the barracks to prepare so that I could prepare to go into the
14 field. That's where we were issued with weapons and that's where we
15 prepared and we waited for the right time to leave the barracks and go to
16 Bijelo Bucje. Since at the time there was tension because of the HVO and
17 for security reasons, it was decided that I should remain in the barracks
18 until we could examine the situation as far as the HVO was concerned,
19 until the situation calmed down.
20 Q. In mid-April something happened that affected the situation in
21 Travnik in a particular manner. Isn't that correct? I'm referring to
22 your company and to your troops.
23 A. Could you please repeat the question again.
24 Q. In mid-April, was there an event of some kind that in some way
25 disturbed your men or affected the morale of the men in your unit?
1 A. As I have said I was there on the 10th, but on the 16th I was in
2 the barracks. I was in the barracks up until the 16th of April. And
3 since the attack had already been carried out on Ahmici, on the village of
4 Ahmici, my men in the unit were upset since 99 per cent of the soldiers
5 were from Vitez and they didn't want to go to Bijelo Bucje. They had
6 requested to be allowed to return home to see what the situation
7 was as far as their families were concerned. My family was also in Vitez.
8 And on that very same day I found out that my wife had been wounded and I
9 also asked to return to Vitez. Since the main roads had been blocked and
10 it wasn't possible to travel from Travnik to Vitez by using those roads, I
11 asked -- I wanted to travel over -- to go via the hills, to reach the
12 village of Poculica which is where we would collect soldiers when I had to
13 go into the field.
14 Q. Were you authorised by the battalion command to go there with your
16 A. Yes, I had to ask for their authorisation, because as I have said
17 weapons had been left in the barracks and the men weren't allowed to go
18 home without their weapons and the weapons had to be left there [as
19 interpreted]; that was the order. But I then had to ask the battalion
20 commander to allow us to have weapons and ammunition. I didn't know which
21 route I would take. I didn't what would happen to me. I didn't know
22 whether anyone would be waiting for me. And thank God I was authorised to
23 do what I wanted to do. I managed to reach Poculica with the unit without
24 having to engage in combat of any kind.
25 Q. Given the passage of time, can you now remember how long after the
1 events in Ahmici you set off with your unit?
2 A. Two or three days after that event. I can't be precise, but it
3 was two or three days later while waiting for the procedural matters to be
4 dealt with.
5 Q. Could you inform the Chamber and tell us where Poculica is
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You can use the map to indicate the location. You can use a
9 felt-tipped to encircle the location.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Can you mark it with number 2.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. How many men did you set off from Travnik with and how many men
14 did you reach Poculica with? What was the strength of your unit?
15 A. There were about a hundred men in my company, but not everyone
16 went into the field. About 70 of them set off. Ten men remained at home.
17 I set off from Travnik with that unit. We set off in the direction of
19 Q. When you reached there did you establish contact with any other
20 ABiH unit?
21 A. Yes, I did.
22 Q. Which unit was that?
23 A. When I reached Poculica I established contact with the 325th
24 Brigade and I informed the brigade command, or rather at that time I spoke
25 to Halil Brzina, person in my unit was re-subordinated to the 325th
1 Brigade and I was given responsibility in the zone of Sljivcica. In the
2 zone of responsibility I carried out rotations for the 325th. Of the
3 hundred men I had, I formed a shift for myself.
4 Q. You said that you had the zone of responsibility and that you were
5 subordinated to 325th Brigade. Where is Sljivcica located? Could you
6 point to its location on the map. If there is a larger place there, could
7 you mark it?
8 A. I can't find it, but it's above Sivrino Selo.
9 Q. Is Sivrino Selo, Sivrino village on the map?
10 A. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Could you mark it then, please.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Could you mark the location with a number 3.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. At that period of time how far away was the zone of responsibility
16 encompassing Sivrino Selo and Sljivcica from Travnik?
17 A. Well, it was about 20 kilometres from Travnik.
18 Q. A minute ago you said that you informed the brigade commander
19 Mr. Halil Brzina. What sort of duties did Halil Brzina have at the time?
20 A. I really don't know what his duties were. I'm not sure but I know
21 that I turned to him on a number of occasions, I contacted him on a number
22 of occasions. I felt close to him, but I couldn't really tell you exactly
23 what his duties were. I don't know.
24 Q. How long did your company remain in that field, during which
25 period of time was it there?
1 A. My company remained in that area of responsibility right up until
2 July, I think. I couldn't tell you what the exact month was, but I
3 remained there until the road between the brigade command and the 1st
4 Battalion command became passable. When this road was opened up, I then
5 immediately joined the battalion and participated in other activities
6 within the framework of the battalion.
7 Q. That was after the events in June 1993 in Travnik?
8 A. Yes, after those events.
9 Q. You said that you arrived in that area a few days after the events
10 in Ahmici. Could you be more precise. What was the date, what was the
11 period of time if events took place in Ahmici on the 16th of April?
12 A. The events in Ahmici took place on the 16th, and it's around that
13 time that I set off. It was around the 18th. I arrived on the 20th or
14 around the 20th in Poculica.
15 Q. Was that in April?
16 A. Yes, in April.
17 Q. Between the 20th of April, 1993, after the events in Travnik, a
18 tumultuous month in 1993. After that month were you engaged in any kind
19 of combat in that area?
20 A. I wasn't engaged in combat activity of any kind, apart from that I
21 had to control the area of responsibility. But as my family was down
22 below, my wife had been wounded, I took upon myself certain
23 responsibilities, I made sure that shifts functions in the area of
24 responsibility, and I made efforts to get my family members and the
25 Bosniak people out of my settlement. So I worked on that for about 20
1 days until I managed to get my wife, children, and some people from my
2 settlement out.
3 Q. As the company commander did you have a report from that period of
4 time that, from the 20th of April until the end of June, and that's the
5 amount of time you spent in that area, did you have any information, any
6 reports, that there was combat in your area of responsibility?
7 A. No, I had no such information.
8 Q. I believe you went back to Travnik when communication was set up
9 between Travnik and Vitez?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you find out afterwards when you got back to Travnik where the
12 rest of the battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade was engaged?
13 A. I found out from fighters that they participated in action at
14 Hajdareve Njive.
15 Q. Are you familiar with the name Ramo Durmis?
16 A. Yes, I am.
17 Q. Did you know him yourself?
18 A. Yes, I did, but since it is a man - how should I put this? - an
19 irresponsible man, I was not very close friends with him. But I did know
21 Q. Do you know when he left the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim
23 A. He left the 7th Muslim Brigade, according to my memory it was in
24 January. I never saw him again afterwards, nor did I have an opportunity
25 to sit down and talk to him or anything like that.
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and
13 English transcripts.
1 Q. And so it was in 1993?
2 A. Yes, in 1993.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no further questions for
5 this witness, Mr. President. And I would just like to ask the witness to
6 sign the map and indicate the date as well.
7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
8 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [No interpretation]
9 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Does the Defence wish to tender
11 this map into evidence?
12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right.
14 Do the other Defence team members have any objections?
15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No, thank you.
16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about the Prosecution?
17 MR. WAESPI: No, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.
19 Registrar, a number.
20 THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you. It is Defence
21 document for Mr. Kubura, D436 [as interpreted].
22 [In English] It will be my pleasure to announce this into English.
23 This exhibit is admitted into the evidence under the reference DK36.
24 Thank you, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Would the other lawyers like to
1 ask any questions of the witness?
2 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Not for the time being,
3 Mr. President, thank you.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I am turning to the Prosecution
5 now -- yes?
6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I do apologise to my
7 learned friend. There is a mistake in the transcript. It is DK36, not
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Waespi:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Adilovic. I just have a few questions to you;
11 it shouldn't take that long. I'm not entirely clear about the date you
12 became a company commander. It must have been sometime in November,
13 perhaps sometime later. Can you specify when it was that you became a
14 company commander? I'm not talking about the Territorial Defence of
15 Vitez; I'm talking about the 7th Muslim -- Mountain Muslim Brigade, that
17 A. I believe it was by the end of February 1993.
18 Q. And it was within the 1st Battalion of the 7th Mountain Muslim
19 Brigade. Is that correct?
20 A. [No interpretation]
21 Q. And can you tell us how many companies there were with --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the witness.
23 MR. WAESPI:
24 Q. If you could answer the question again I had asked before because
25 the interpreters didn't pick it up. My question was whether that -- you
1 know, the company was within the 1st Battalion of the 7th Mountain Muslim
3 A. Yes, the 7th Muslim Brigade.
4 Q. And the 1st Battalion?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, how many -- how many companies does the 1st Battalion have at
7 the time you were one of the company commanders?
8 A. There were four companies, but they were not up to full strength
9 in terms of their establishment.
10 Q. I believe you told us your company had hundred soldiers. Is that
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Now, the other companies, did they have more or less than hundred
15 A. A lot less.
16 Q. Can you tell us about the strength in numbers. How much less?
17 A. The other companies numbered between 50 and 60 men, thereabouts.
18 Q. Your company which you were leading from February 1993 onwards,
19 did it have a name, a number? Was it the 1st Company, the 2nd?
20 A. It was called the Vitez Company and it was the 4th Company as
22 Q. The other companies, did they also have names according to where
23 the people came from like the Vitez Company in your case? How were the
24 other companies called, if they had names?
25 A. They were called by their name -- numbers.
1 Q. 1st one, 2nd one, 3rd, one, and then the 4th one being the Vitez
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. In your company did you have platoons or detachments?
5 A. Within the company I had detachments and departments -- platoons
7 Q. And how many detachments were there within your company?
8 A. It would be easier for me to say how many platoons were within
9 detachments. We had three detachments and three platoons per each
10 detachment. The 1st, the 2nd, the 3rd, for the 1st one, and then for the
11 2nd one, 1, 2, 3 again.
12 Q. Now, who was your battalion commander at the time you were the
13 command of the 4th Vitez Company?
14 A. At that moment it was Fadil Hadzic.
15 Q. Was he the battalion commander throughout the time you were the
16 company commander or did he change?
17 A. Not the whole time. There were changes.
18 Q. And who succeeded him?
19 A. I believe that he was followed by Safet Junozovic.
20 Q. And was there a time that Safit Terzic [as interpreted] was also a
21 commander of the 1st Battalion?
22 A. I do not know. I don't remember that.
23 Q. Now, you told us that on 10th of April you were supposed to
24 replace a unit at Bijelo Bucje. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. Do you remember which unit you were supposed to replace?
2 A. I remember the company commander Suad --
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the name,
4 unfortunately, again.
5 MR. WAESPI:
6 Q. Could you repeat the full name. The interpreters couldn't catch
8 A. I do remember the first name of the commander -- well, it was
9 Jusovic, Suad.
10 Q. Now, just to clear something up, you said that after the events in
11 Ahmici you and your unit, you know, were transferred to another area and
12 you have circled that area, and it was around Poculica and you also
13 indicated that you were also at Sivrino Selo. And you told us that the
14 time frame was from front of April, when you arrived, until I believe
15 sometime in July. Is that correct?
16 A. So I said when I got to Poculica it's a location where -- when I
17 was supposed to go out to the field I used to gather my men. And my area
18 of responsibility was in Sljivcica and Sivrino Selo, and I had that
19 territory under control. I can't remember the date, but I stayed there
20 for as long as -- we had no communication between the brigade command and
21 the battalion command, between Zenica and Travnik that is. When that
22 communication was established, I went back to the battalion command, that
23 is to say the units within the battalion.
24 Q. When you say there was no communication between the brigade and
25 the battalion command, you, your unit, had contacts with the battalion
1 command. Is that correct?
2 A. My unit had contact with the brigade command but not with the
3 battalion command.
4 Q. Now, where was the battalion command located at that time?
5 A. Travnik.
6 Q. And what was the mission your company was given, you as the
7 commander, in that area? What were you supposed to do there?
8 A. My task was simply to stop the advance of the HVO forces in the
9 direction of Poculica village.
10 Q. Was Poculica village so important that it needed to be defended?
11 Why would the HVO advance to that village?
12 A. I don't know why, but it was important to defend Poculica, it was
13 important to me. And I stayed there to defend Poculica. When I got there
14 I didn't go to there to go to sleep. I participated in the activities of
15 the 325th. In order to have this area of responsibility under control, in
16 order to stop the HVO from advancing, but why that area was interesting to
17 them I don't know.
18 Q. So you were hundred soldiers in that village or in the wider area,
19 more or less?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. How many civilians were living in that area, the area you had
22 under control at that time?
23 A. I don't know Poculica is a village. There is Prnjavor and
24 Vrhovine. I can't tell you exactly how many. But those soldiers were my
25 soldiers from these areas, Poculica, Lupac, and so on and so forth. So it
1 was easier. I mean, some of them could go home and sow the crops, et
2 cetera, and I had another shift from another village and they could stay
3 at home. There were no combat activities in terms of advancing or pushing
4 back the HVO forces. There was nothing like that at the time. We were
5 simply trying to stop them from making any advances themselves.
6 Q. Do you remember how many women and children there were in that
8 A. I can't remember. It was the normal population living there, and
9 the way it had always been. There were women and children and everybody
10 else. Apart from that there were some refugees from Vitez who came up
11 there and they were housed there, so I can't tell you exactly how many
12 houses or how many families or how many refugees or anything else. But it
13 was densely populated and there were quite a few people there.
14 Q. And the men, the local men, were part of your company, the men of
15 fighting age?
16 A. Correct. Those who were fit to fight, I mean not all of them.
17 Some of them were in the 325th. So a part of that population, a hundred
18 people from the villages, Lupac, Preocica, Vrhovine, Poculica, and so on.
19 So from that detachment area, about a hundred people who made up my
21 Q. So people who were fighting age were either deployed in your
22 company or in another part of the -- or the 3rd Corps?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, just to be entirely sure, you told us that you were part of
25 the 325th Brigade. You were resubordinated or deployed as part of the
1 325th Brigade, if I understood you correctly?
2 A. I did not say that I was a member of the 325th; I was a member of
3 the Territorial Defence Staff Vitez. On the occasion of the setting up of
4 brigades and corps at that stage, I joined the 7th Muslim Brigade.
5 However, since I got there to that area, my area of responsibility, the
6 one that was assigned to me, was within the area of responsibility of the
7 325th and they gave me a part of that area in which to stop the advance of
8 the HVO forces.
9 Q. Now, you told us that you were -- you talked to Mr. Halil Brzina.
10 I think you said he was a person you trusted over that time. Is that
12 A. I said I talked to him. I told him I got there and about the
13 situation of my family and all that. I explained all that to him and I
14 asked for the Red Cross to -- for Red Cross assistance through him in
15 order for my family to be saved because I knew that my wife had been
16 wounded and -- in Vitez, and that there were other people who were
17 wounded. So I asked him for assistance to help me, to somehow reach my
18 family and get them out of that inferno and to remain within the area of
19 responsibility of the 325th and to stay here in that area of
20 responsibility, that area Sljivcica and Sivrino Selo are close to my home,
21 so I could follow the events there.
22 Q. While you were there, did you have contacts with Mr. Brzina, or
23 was it just in the beginning while you were sent there?
24 A. Only in the beginning. Only in the beginning. Basically I talked
25 to him and then he wrote to the Red Cross. And then I was assigned my
1 area of responsibility and I stuck to it, and I concentrated on the
2 well-being of my family and the Bosniak people who were our neighbours.
3 Q. And Mr. Halil Brzina, he was the deputy brigade commander of the
4 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. Do you remember that?
5 A. I did not say that nor do I remember that he was.
6 Q. In fact, there is some information that he may have been the
7 assistant commander for logistics in that time period. So that's not
8 something which you were aware of at that time?
9 A. I was with the battalion command and according to the brigade
10 command, and I mean what it was all about, I was not really interested in
11 all that. I didn't need to know who was there. It was a higher level. I
12 didn't care about that. I cared about my own responsibility, which was at
13 the battalion; that was my job. And I got my tasks assigned from the
14 battalion, and so I was responsible for my own unit and I was responsible
15 and accountable to the battalion commander and no one else and it was up
16 to him and so on.
17 Q. Let me go back, or rather forward to Mr. Ramo Durmis. You have
18 been asked about him and I believe you said sort of you lost contact in
19 January 1993. Now, were you involved in an action on the 28th December,
20 1992, in the area of Visoko and Visegrad?
21 A. Yes, I was, at Visoko. But not at that time. I was not -- I
22 mean, at that time I was not a company commander. I just went up there
23 with the commanders and I followed the activities.
24 Q. Just to be clear, on the 28th of December, 1992, when there was
25 some type of action in the Visoko area, you were a part of that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Because we do have a report by Mr. Ramo Durmis in which he
3 mentions you as being present there. So that would -- that would be
5 A. I've never seen such a report until the proofing, and what I did
6 see -- I mean as to whether I was there, well it is correct that I was
7 there. And as to everything else, I really don't believe any of it.
8 Q. When is it the last time that you have seen Mr. Ramo Durmis?
9 A. I said at some point in January straight afterwards, straight
10 after Visoko on the 28th of December. That was the last time I saw him
11 and I never met him or had anything to do with him whatsoever, and I
12 didn't even know where he was and what he was up to. But I did hear that
13 he was no longer with the 7th Muslim Brigade.
14 Q. And from whom did you hear that?
15 A. From soldiers, fighters, my own men.
16 Q. Why would they tell you something about Ramo Durmis? Was he a
17 person of interest, prominence?
18 A. I myself actually argued with Ramo Durmis from the very start,
19 when we first met; it was between the two of us. And I never, ever wanted
20 to sit down, have a coffee, or talk to him, let alone participate in any
21 sort of activity at his side, never again.
22 Q. Never again after what time?
23 A. After the 28th of December when we got back from Visoko. It was
24 in the month of January. We parted ways and I went to one side and I
25 don't know what he did, where he took himself to. And afterwards I heard,
1 as I said, that he was no longer with the 7th Muslim Brigade.
2 Q. Well, we just heard from the previous witness that the operation
3 in Visoko was successful and the units involved -- Mr. Ramo Durmis's unit
4 was even commended for that action. The person who said that was the
5 operations officer of the 7th Mountain Muslim Brigade. Do you disagree
6 with him?
7 A. I disagree that it was all that successful; I think it was a
8 failure in fact. And I don't know whether he got any awards or not. I
9 never cared about it, especially anything having to do with Ramo Durmis.
10 But from my personal point of view, it was not a success. It was a
12 Q. Were you ever in contacts with any foreign fighters where Arab
13 countries or from Turkish countries? In your capacity as a company
14 commander, were you in contacts?
15 A. I'm just waiting for the interpretation. Well, I've never had any
16 contacts, either myself or my unit, and I believe that no one from our
17 battalion had any contacts with any foreigners, or foreign members as we
18 called them. I myself can guarantee that I myself or members of my unit
19 or the battalion have never had anything to do with them.
20 Q. How is it possible you can speak for the battalion? You can
21 certainly talk about your company, but how can you talk about the other
22 three companies? What makes you so certain that, number 1, number 2,
23 number 3 didn't have contact with these fighters?
24 A. Well, when we changed shifts and spent time at the barracks, the
25 1st and the 2nd Company, I mean, I got to know these people. And on that
1 basis I can make this claim, and I've never seen anyone coming to the
2 battalion command in the company of any such people; that's the basis of
3 my claim. Okay, it is true that I am at the company level and I am
4 accountable for what the company does, but I do know of about things
5 taking place around me and I know this has never happened.
6 Q. Are you aware that one of the staff officers of the brigade said
7 in August that people from the brigade -- battalion got used to the
8 foreign fighters and that they in fact liked their presence because it
9 makes them more secure? Have you heard about that?
10 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I've never heard
11 anything like that. I've never heard of any staff officer having been
12 quoted as saying that, and my learned colleague has not told the witness
13 who is supposed to have said that and when. So I don't know what it's all
14 about. This may confuse the witness.
15 MR. WAESPI: Mr. President, this is P610. It's a document from
16 the assistant commander for morale, Mr. Ahmet Adilovic, and I can show it
17 to the witness and perhaps that can -- he can have a comment and say, yes,
18 I change my opinion, or no I haven't heard about that. It can be shown to
19 the witness, I have no problem; P610 please.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you please
21 give us P610.
22 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. Usher, we do have an additional copy -- in
23 fact, for everybody in the courtroom if ...
24 Q. Have you ever heard of Mr. Ahmet Adilovic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you remember what his position was at that time?
2 A. I'm not sure, but I think he was responsible for the morale of the
3 soldiers but I'm not sure.
4 Q. Yes, that's right. And if you look at the first part of the
5 document you see it's a document entitled "Report on BM,"
6 apparently, "combat morale situation." And it's sent to the commander of
7 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. It dates 4th August, 1993. And let
8 me -- I'm just interested in paragraph 4, if you can go down to paragraph
9 4. And here it says what I asked you before and I can read it slowly to
10 you: "In addition to these, the following are specific factors for the
11 1st Battalion, 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade," and that's your battalion,
12 Mr. Adilovic.
13 Then A: "To date they have got used to the Arabs and also some
14 Turks taking part in B/D with them. Their presence makes them more secure
15 and the Arabs were frequently of decisive importance for the success of an
16 action. So the soldiers of the 1st Battalion, 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade
17 wanted them engaged again in B/D with members of the 1st Battalion, 7th
18 Muslim Mountain Brigade."
19 My question to you is just: Does that also apply to your unit,
20 that you, you know, felt more secure when these people were present?
21 That's my question.
22 A. Within my unit, and I've said this before, there were no foreign
23 participants of any sort. So I can't tell you how my unit felt without or
24 with them since we were never with them, they [Realtime transcript read in
25 error "we"] were never there in my unit. So these were only and
1 exclusively the people from the area that I've just described. And as to
2 this report, I mean it's up to him, up to the author of that report. I
3 don't know to whom he had talked. He never contacted my unit for the
4 purposes of this report. I mean, that's from the brigade commander; it is
5 his opinion. Perhaps a couple of people did think like that. I am able
6 to argue about this, but I am unaware of this. And I do know that there
7 were no foreign members or foreigners within my unit; I can claim that and
8 I stand by it. And as to what people may have wished for or not wished
9 for, that's altogether a different matter.
10 Q. The only reason I show you the document is --
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Defence counsel.
12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I
13 didn't want to interrupt my colleague, but there's an error in the
14 transcript, page 69, line 17 the witness said "they were never in my
16 MR. WAESPI: Yes, thank you very much for the correction.
17 Q. The only point is, Mr. Adilovic, I don't dispute what you said
18 about your company; I was just wary about the fact that you wanted to
19 speak on behalf of the whole battalion. And this document seems to
20 contradict what you said about the rest of the battalion.
21 A. I'm telling you now. I don't know. I was never familiar with the
22 way that this document was drafted. I don't know whether there were
23 discussions of any kind. There were no discussions with my unit. I don't
24 know on the basis of what this report was drafted.
25 MR. WAESPI: I have no further questions, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It's time to have a break now.
2 Does Defence counsel have any additional questions for the
4 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Not at the moment,
5 Mr. President.
6 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We'll have our break now and
7 we'll resume at 1.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now resume. Defence
11 counsel for Mr. Kubura have said that they have no additional questions
12 for the witness. I will now turn to General Hadzihasanovic's Defence
13 counsel. Do you have any additional questions for this witness?
14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No. Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So I have a few brief questions
16 I would like to put to you.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you tell me when you
19 retired what was the rank that you held?
20 A. I didn't even say that I retired. I left the Federation army in
21 2001 in the month of September. I'm unemployed. I'm not retired. I left
22 with the rank of captain.
23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you left the army in 2001 of
24 your own accord. Could you tell me what the first name of your father
1 A. His first name is Sefik.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well because there is a
3 document with two individuals with the same first name. I will show you
4 P498, which is a list of the members of the 7th Brigade. This document,
5 which is a list of members of the 7th Brigade, could you have a look at
6 page 3, please, and your name is on page 3 of that document. It says that
7 the 1st Battalion, the 1st Company, the 1st Detachment on the 28th of
8 October there's Ramo Durmis, the 1st Company, the 1st -- on the 1st of
9 February 1993 is Suad Jusovic. The 3rd Company, 1st Detachment, 15th of
10 January, 1993, Rezad Skopljak; and then the 1st Company, commander of the
11 2nd Detachment, the 10th of January, 1993, Asim Bektas. And you appear as
12 the commander of the 2nd Company of the 2nd Detachment, the 10th of
13 December, 1992. Were you appointed on the 5th of December, 1992?
14 A. At the time I didn't have these duties. As I have said, these
15 were assumptions on the strength of the units. But towards the end of
16 February at the beginning of March, I took over this company from Bektas,
17 Asim, and this isn't the name of my father.
18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the English translation that
19 I have of the first name of your father it says Sekib. Was there a
20 mistake made?
21 A. My father's name was Sefik, not Sekib.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sefik, because you say that the
23 5th of December, 1992, is not the right date. You assumed command in
24 February, not before. Have I understood you correctly?
25 A. That's correct.
1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In response to a question put to
2 you a minute ago you said that there were four companies. When one has a
3 look at this document, I can see that there is a 1st Company, a 2nd
4 Company, and a 3rd Company. Where's the 4th Company?
5 A. Just a minute, please. This isn't clear to me here below. It
6 says the 1st Company then the 2nd Company. This part isn't clear.
7 According to this document, there were two other companies. You can see
8 it says "the commander of the 2nd Company Suad Jusovic." The commander of
9 the other company was Adlo, Enver, son of Sekib.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When reading this document it
11 would appear, as you say, that there are -- that in the 2nd Company there
12 is one detachment with Suad Jusovic at its head, and in the other
13 detachment you seem to be at its head. Can you explain that, since Suad
14 Jusovic can be seen above as the deputy commander since he is referred to
15 as the deputy. And there's the date, the 13th of December, 1993. Would
16 Fadil Hadic be the deputy, and Naim Horo, Osman Osmanovic, Suad Jusovic,
17 these individuals would be the deputies. In your opinion this document is
18 not quite correct?
19 A. It's not at all correct.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The name -- but you say that
21 this document doesn't reflect the actual situation. If I have understood
22 you correctly, you were officially the commander of the 2nd Company as of
23 the month of February, 1993, and not before that date?
24 A. Not of the second one. Asim Bektas was at the head of the Vitez
25 4th Company, which was called the 4th one. It was called the Vitez
1 Company; that's the company that I took over at the end of February 1993.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] At the end of February 1993. So
3 you took charge of Bektas's company, the so-called Vitez Company. We take
4 note of what you have just said.
5 I'll move on to another subject now. In response to a question
6 put to you, you said that the company was composed of about 100 men,
7 roughly speaking. You were in charge of about a hundred men. While you
8 performed your duties as commander and you started performing those duties
9 at the end of February 1993, while performing those duties did your
10 company sustain any losses in combat? Were there any men under you who
11 were either killed or wounded in combat?
12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When I assumed my duties we
13 weren't involved in fighting. We held the area of responsibility and
14 there were shifts. The area of responsibility was near Travnik in the
15 village of Bijelo Bucje. So we weren't really involved in combat
16 activities. And at that time I didn't have any men who had been wounded
17 or killed. From March onwards, in March and April, in Sljivcica, some men
18 were wounded by the HVO. There were -- there would be an exchange of
19 fire, they would open fire from their lines. So there were a few such
20 cases. A few men who were slightly wounded. They weren't seriously
21 wounded. So during that period of time, I didn't sustain any losses.
22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were on the slopes of
23 Travnik in the area of responsibility, were you in the field around the
24 clock or would you be present during the day and would you then return to
25 sleep in your homes in the evening and then go back into the field into
1 your zone of responsibility in the morning? How did this take place?
2 Were you in the field on a permanent basis or did you come and go?
3 A. I took over the zone of responsibility with my unit in Bijelo
4 Bucje. So I was on the front lines, but occasionally the men would have
5 leave in the evening or they would rest near the line in dugouts, et
6 cetera. Occasionally they would descend to the area where there are
7 houses so that they could rest and so that I could have a rest, too. We
8 would rest in those houses. We would have a shift and one shift would
9 hold the line and another shift would be resting near the line, and then
10 there were some men down below in those houses where they could also have
11 a rest. That's How the men rotated in Bijelo Bucje. That's how we
13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you took up your position
14 in Bijelo Bucje, was there a written order stating that your company was
15 to take charge of that area? Was there a written order that you received
16 or were you informed of the fact orally?
17 A. Well, in Bijelo Bucje as the army already had men involved in
18 defence at the time, I can't say how this happened, but our battalion was
19 assigned a zone of responsibility up there and, naturally, I arrived there
20 with my unit. Our company was already holding the defence line up there
21 and I only replaced that company. The men were rotated that company and
22 then went to the battalion in Travnik and I would remain up there where I
23 was in charge of that area of responsibility.
24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] When you were on those slopes,
25 what means of communication did you have with your headquarters? Did you
1 have any radio sets? How did you inform your superior in the headquarters
2 and his deputies of what was happening in the field? Or did you have
3 communication problems?
4 A. In Bijelo Bucje there was an advance detachment that monitored
5 everything via the communications. Those were the communications with the
6 battalion that we had. And up in the area of responsibility itself I did
7 have problems because we didn't really have Motorolas. We didn't have
8 much equipment to use as means of communication. Whenever it was
9 necessary to contact the battalion command, I had to descend down below
10 and inform the communications officer of the information that I had to
11 relay. And I had to do this in order to receive a response. Occasionally
12 sometimes I would say -- sometimes I had a Motorola, but this was quite
13 rare. Sometimes I had a Motorola on me.
14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In the 7th Brigade, did the
15 Chief of Staff assemble his company commanders for working meetings, for
16 briefings? Did you assemble or did you never see each other?
17 A. I had working meetings with the battalion command alone. And
18 later, in August 1993, I had a briefing with Mr. Amir Kubura. We were
19 scattered all over the place, so it was a matter of becoming familiar with
20 a unit commander's company commanders.
21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the battalion commander, did
22 he visit you in the field, see the sort of things you were involved in, to
23 see what sort of difficulties you might encounter? Did your battalion
24 commander visit you?
25 A. Yes, he did. He would come to visit the unit to have a look
1 around and so on.
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] With regard to the military
3 police of the 7th Brigade, did you usually -- did you have any contact
4 with them from time to time or did you never see them?
5 A. It wasn't necessary for me to have contact with them. I didn't
6 meet them nor was I involved in any activities with them. It wasn't
7 necessary for them to bring anyone in, et cetera. So as far as security
8 was concerned, I didn't have any problems and I did not have to have much
9 contact with them. I didn't have to have contact with them.
10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And if you had had a problem,
11 who would you have informed of the fact within the 7th Brigade's military
12 police unit?
13 A. You would report to the command battalion. If a soldier had left
14 the line, had failed to respond to a summons, I -- left my unit. And if I
15 didn't know where he had gone, there's a certain procedure to be followed.
16 If you want to go into another unit you need authorisation from another
17 unit. But I have already said that I didn't have such problems so that I
18 personally had to send reports to the battalion command.
19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] My last question: When you were
20 appointed or selected to become company commander, did you know for what
21 reason you yourself had been selected, or did you yourself come forward?
22 A. Well, I myself had come forward and asked to be commander. It was
23 my own request, my personal request. I came along and I said, Okay, this
24 is where I come from and I was a detachment commander and I wanted to have
25 that post, company or a detachment commander. I asked for it, quite
2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Well, thank you for your replies
3 to my questions.
4 Now I'd like to turn to the Prosecution. Would you like to ask
5 any questions following the Judge's questions?
6 MR. WAESPI: Yes, Mr. President, there's a couple.
7 Further cross-examination by Mr. Waespi:
8 Q. If we can turn to page 3 of that document, it lists the commander
9 of the 1st Company, 1st detachment, and 2nd Company commander 1st
10 Detachment, and so on. Now, let me ask you, is it possible that the
11 battalion was divided into two detachments and then for each detachment
12 there were several companies? That means for the 1st Detachment of the
13 Battalion there was the 1st Company, the 2nd, and the 3rd one; and for the
14 2nd Detachment of the Battalion there was the 1st Company and the 2nd
15 Company. And you were the commander of the 2nd Company of the 2nd
16 Detachment of the 1st Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade. And
17 within your company, you then had, again, detachments. Is that a possible
18 explanation of the way the situation was?
19 A. Well, I'll reply to this question once again. If you have a
20 battalion within a battalion, you can't have detachments. I've already
21 mentioned on a number of occasions that before the fact -- because of the
22 fact that we were not up to strength -- I mean, these are -- this is the
23 situation from before. We were trying to have detachments first because a
24 detachment is smaller than a battalion. And then we thought we would have
25 two detachments and then a battalion. And this is the structure. This
1 was probably the original idea, but it did not happen that way in
2 practice. We had to have a brigade but you can't have battalions made of
3 detachments. They could only be made up of companies.
4 So this did not actually exist as such. Maybe this was the
5 initial conception, these were the plans when the 7th Muslim Brigade or
6 the 1st Battalion were first being planned and set up. So I really am not
7 aware of this because for a certain period of time I was asking for more
8 people to join in, et cetera, in order to be posted accordingly.
9 Q. And just on this, if you look at the names listed as company
10 commanders, Mr. Durmis, Jusovic, Skopljak and you, Mr. Adilovic, I
11 understand, you came in later. These were company commanders at the time?
12 A. In the field -- no, it wasn't like that. You can have any papers
13 you like, but I was not a company commander at the time. I became a
14 company commander on the basis of a written order at the end of February
15 when I took over from Asim Bektas, and I took over the Vitez Company, and
16 at that stage I acted as a commander.
17 Q. What did Asim Bektas do after you replaced him?
18 A. He went into logistics, something like that, I don't know, because
19 he did not wish to continue as a company commander anymore. And since I
20 am from that area, from Vitez, I was ordered to -- by the battalion
21 command to organise the practicalities a bit better, going out into the
22 field, going home, coming back, et cetera, and so to replace Asim Bektas,
23 and Asim Bektas, well, I don't know what was with him, something in
24 logistics, but what exactly he did, I don't know.
25 Q. And while you were there as the company commander after February
1 1993, Mr. Suad Jusovic was also company commander of a different company
2 within the 1st Battalion.
3 A. He was commander of that company, and I did say that on the 10th
4 of April I was supposed to replace that company from the Bijelo Bucje
5 position from Poculica. And I went in the direction of Travnik barracks
6 and we waited a little bit, although I didn't go up there to replace him
7 in the field.
8 Q. Let me finish. Before you were appointed the commander of this
9 company in February, you said that in November you had filed a written
10 request to join the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade to Mr. Haso Ribo and then
11 you were, in fact -- became a member of that brigade. In what capacity
12 were you a member of the brigade between November and February? What were
13 you doing? What sub-unit of the brigade were you attached to before you
14 became the commander of the 2nd Company?
15 A. Right. I was not carrying out any duties on the basis of any
16 documents, orders, or anything like that. I was within the unit within
17 the battalion. I was following the situation of the units; that was my
18 task until the setting up order -- gathering of the people from that
19 battalion to former companies. So I followed the situation within the
20 unit. I went to Bijelo Bucje, et cetera. And I said I went to Visoko.
21 And I was simply following that action, nothing else, as a member of the
22 7th Muslim Brigade.
23 Q. And which unit did you follow to Bijelo Bucje?
24 A. At that time, Jusovic's or somebody else's -- I don't know who it
25 was. Whenever a commander tells you, okay, go and take a look, check
1 things out, whether there's a need for something, just check out the
2 general state of the unit at Bijelo Bucje.
3 Q. So you were given a supervisory task in some sort? You were given
4 the task to go there and see what's happening with this unit?
5 A. Those were orders given to us orally to check it out. I was not
6 given any orders in writing, but I did carry out the tasks I was told to
7 carry out.
8 Q. Who gave you the order to check things out in Bijelo Bucje?
9 A. At the time Fadil Hadzic for the most part. I don't know who
10 else. I don't know.
11 Q. And Fadil Hadzic, if you look at again page 3, you see him as the
12 first deputy commander of the 1st Battalion. Would that be the Fadil
13 Hadzic, son of Refik, who gave you the oral order to go to Bijelo Bucje?
14 A. Yes, that's him. But I don't know that he had this establishment
15 post. I really don't know.
16 Q. But he was --
17 A. I don't even know that all those detachments existed as such.
18 Within this whole effort of setting up a brigade and a battalion, I don't
19 know that there were any detachments. I really don't know about that.
20 Q. Yes, but he was obviously in a position of authority to give you
21 an order and you accepted it, Mr. Fadil Hadzic?
22 A. Yes. He couldn't just tell me what to do in any old way. I mean,
23 of course he was told certain things and then he issued his directions to
25 Q. And the units you went to visit in Bijelo Bucje were units part of
1 the 1st Battalion?
2 A. The 1st Battalion.
3 MR. WAESPI: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.
4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What about the Defence?
5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no questions,
6 Mr. President. Thank you.
7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, just one
8 clarification, and I'd like for the witness to be shown this document that
9 he was looking at earlier. On it is DK36 for the Defence of Mr. Kubura.
10 I have a copy here so he can take a look -- no, DK29. I do apologise.
11 Further examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Adilovic, you said that your company was
13 called Vitez Company. If you take a look at the indication Bektas, Asim,
14 Poculica, Vitez, was that the company that you inherited and that you took
16 A. Yes, that's the one. That's the one I took over from Asim.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions,
19 Mr. President.
20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. Your testimony is
21 completed now. On behalf of the Trial Chamber I would like to thank you
22 for having come to The Hague to answer the questions asked by the lawyers
23 acting on behalf of General Kubura. You have also answered the questions
24 from the Prosecution and my own questions as well. Now, on the Judges'
25 behalf I would like to wish you a pleasant journey back home. So I would
1 like to ask the usher to accompany you out of the courtroom.
2 [The witness withdrew]
3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. Now on tomorrow and
4 the day after tomorrow, we still have two witnesses. We've managed to
5 make up for the delay. Now I'd like to give the floor to the Defence.
6 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We
7 have planned witness number 10 for tomorrow, number 10 on the list. We
8 have indicated that the hearing should take about an hour and a half, and
9 we will try and make sure that it's less than that. And for Thursday
10 we've got witness number 12. Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. So as I've already
12 mentioned this morning, tomorrow morning we'll start with an ex parte
13 hearing, which will last between 9.00 and 9.10. Then we'll have a
14 technical break and then it will be my pleasure to see the Prosecution and
15 Mr. Kubura's Defence team at quarter to 10.00.
16 General Hadzihasanovic will be there at 9.00 and General Kubura
17 will be joining us at quarter to 10.00. We still have a couple of minutes
18 left. Would you like to deal with anything else at the moment? Nothing?
19 So in that case, thank you all, and I'll see you back here at 9.00
20 tomorrow morning. And this is VP418 that I am giving back to the
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.37 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of
24 April, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.