Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18681

 1                          Monday, 2 May 2005

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 4                          [The accused entered court]

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar, could you call

 6    the case, please.

 7            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Case Number IT-01-47-T, the

 8    Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10            Could we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.

11            MR. MUNDIS:  Goods afternoon, Your Honours, counsel and everyone

12    in and around the courtroom.  For the Prosecution, Matthias Neuner, and

13    Darryl Mundis, assisted by Andres Vatter, our case manager.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the appearances

15    for Defence counsel, please.

16            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President, good

17    morning, Your Honours.  On behalf of General Enver Hadzihasanovic, Edina

18    Residovic, lead counsel, and Stephane Bourgon, co-counsel.  Thank you.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could we have the appearances

20    for the other Defence team, please.

21            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours. On

22    behalf of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and our legal

23    assistant, Nermin Mulalic.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now be resuming on the

25    2nd of May, 2005, after having had a brief break.  I would like to greet

Page 18682

 1    members of the Prosecution, Defence counsel, General Hadzihasanovic, and

 2    Brigadier Kubura.

 3            And I wouldn't want to forget to mention everyone else in and

 4    around the courtroom.  As I have said, we will be resuming with the

 5    proceedings today.  We're going straight ahead now.  We only have a few

 6    witnesses left to hear.  We have been provided with Mr. Kubura's Defence

 7    counsel's planning schedule.  We have three witnesses scheduled, one

 8    today, two on Tuesday, and perhaps we will be continuing on Wednesday.

 9    This means that we won't be having a witness for Thursday.

10            Is this, in fact, the schedule submitted by the Defence?

11            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  That

12    is the correct schedule.  We will be calling one witness today and we

13    intended to call another witness tomorrow.  Mr. Dixon will be conducting

14    the examination-in-chief.  If everything goes as planned, we'll call the

15    second witness on that day, who should complete his testimony on

16    Wednesday.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted).  We've

22    also received submissions from the Prosecution, written submissions, that

23    concern the motion to re-open their case to have certain documents

24    admitted into evidence.  Defence counsel will provide us with their

25    submissions as soon as possible.

Page 18683

 1            At the Status Conference, approximate planning -- a schedule was

 2    presented by the Chamber's legal officer, and it appears that the parties

 3    have said that they will try to abide by this schedule.  In theory, this

 4    means that the proceedings should be completed by mid-July.  If there are

 5    no other issues to be raised, we will now call the witness into the

 6    courtroom.

 7            No issues to be raised by the Prosecution or by Defence counsel?

 8    In that case, we'll call the witness into the courtroom.

 9                          [The witness entered court]

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir.  I'd first like

11    to make sure that you are receiving the interpretation of what I'm saying

12    into your own language.  If so, please say that you can hear and

13    understand me.

14            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear and understand you.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you have been called here as

16    a witness for Brigadier Kubura's Defence counsel.  Before you take the

17    solemn declaration, I would be grateful if you could tell me your first

18    and last names, your date and place of birth.

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Kasim Alajbegovic.  I was

20    born on the 24th of December, 1963, in Groce -- in the village of Groce,

21    in the municipality of Kakanj.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What is your current job?

23            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm a graduated mechanical

24    engineer.  I work in a public company, Grinje [phoen] in Kakanj, which is

25    involved in distributing energy in the town and in the surrounding areas.

Page 18684

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993, what position

 2    did you hold?  Were you a member of the military at the time?  If so,

 3    which unit were you a member of and what rank or position did you have?

 4            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the beginning of 1992, I was a

 5    member of the reserve police force.  I was assigned to that force, and

 6    then sometime in July 1992 we were resubordinated to the command of the

 7    Kakanj municipal Territorial Defence Staff.  I was assigned a position in

 8    the staff command, and I was responsible for logistics.

 9            Around October, I was given the task of establishing a battalion,

10    the future 7th Muslim Brigade what was part of the ABiH army.  Initially

11    in that unit, I was the commander until the 22nd of February, 1993, when I

12    requested professionally trained officer and I was assigned as deputy

13    commander and remained in that post until the 8th of June, 1993, when I

14    was wounded and sent to hospital for medical treatment.  I was mobilised

15    [as interpreted] -- I was mobilised in September 1993.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Have you already testified

17    before an international or national court with regard to the events that

18    took place in your country in 1992 or 1993 or is this the first time?

19            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I have been

20    in a court.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please read out the

22    solemn declaration.

23                          WITNESS:  KASIM ALAJBEGOVIC

24                          [Witness answered through interpreter]

25            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak

Page 18685

 1    the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  You may sit down.

 3            Before I give the floor to the Defence, who will be conducting

 4    their examination-in-chief, I would like to provide you with some

 5    information about the procedure that we will be following.  This is

 6    something that I do whenever a witness appears in the courtroom.

 7    Initially, you will have to answer the questions put to you by Brigadier

 8    Kubura's Defence, and you have certainly met his Defence in the course of

 9    your proofing.  Once this stage has been completed, the Prosecution, who

10    are to your right, will conduct what we call the cross-examination.

11    Having completed their cross-examination, Defence counsel, who are to your

12    left, may ask you additional questions.

13            I would also like to point out that General Hadzihasanovic's

14    Defence counsel, since they are a separate party, they may also put

15    questions to you.  Then the three Judges, who are sitting in front of you,

16    may ask you questions if they believe that it is necessary, either in

17    order to clarify some of your answers or because the Judges believe that

18    it is in the interest of justice to put some questions to you since the

19    Judges may feel that there are certain gaps in your testimony.  If the

20    Judges put questions to a witness, the Prosecution and Defence counsel may

21    take the floor again and put other questions to you to clarify some of the

22    answers that you have provided to the Judges.

23            You may not be aware of this fact, or perhaps you are aware of the

24    fact, that the procedure followed here is mainly oral and you will see in

25    front of you a monitor on which everything that is said is transcribed.

Page 18686

 1    As the procedure followed is oral, try to provide full answers to the

 2    questions put to you because your answers will form the evidence, the

 3    testimony.  You might be shown certain documents, perhaps military

 4    documents; and you might be asked to say whether you are familiar with

 5    them, whether you were familiar with them in 1992 or 1993; and you might

 6    be shown documents that you yourself drafted.

 7            There are two or points that I need to draw your attention to.

 8    You have taken the solemn declaration, which means you should not give

 9    false testimony.  As you know, false testimony is an offence which is

10    punishable by the Tribunal.

11            In addition, I should also point out something that is specific to

12    this procedure.  When you answer a question, if you believe that your

13    answer could be used against you at a subsequent date, since the

14    information could be used to prosecute you, you may refuse to answer the

15    question.  In such exceptional circumstances, the Chamber can compel you

16    to answer the question but the Chamber grants you immunity, which means

17    that whatever you say cannot be used against you.  But rest assured, we

18    have never had such a situation to date.

19            If you encounter any difficulties in the course of proceedings,

20    don't hesitate to inform us of the fact; we are here to resolve any

21    difficulties.  We will be having two breaks today, two 25-minute breaks.

22    We have to have breaks for technical reasons, since it's necessary to

23    change the tapes and it's also necessary for you to have a rest, because

24    you will see that answers questions incessantly can be quite tiring and

25    it's necessary for witnesses to have a brief 25 to 30-minute break.  If

Page 18687

 1    you fail to understand a question, don't hesitate to ask the party putting

 2    the question to you to rephrase it because it's necessary for to you fully

 3    understand the questions put to you, and it is also necessary for your

 4    answer to the questions to be appropriate.  This is how we will be

 5    proceeding and the hearing will end at 1900 hours.

 6            I will now give the floor to Brigadier Kubura's Defence counsel

 7    for the examination-in-chief.

 8            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                          Examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

10       Q.   [Interpretation] Sir, in response to a question to the Presiding

11    Judge, you told us what you did and where you were in 1992 and 1993, but

12    for the sake of the transcript, I think that in the transcript it said

13    that you were mobilised in 1993.  But I believe that you said that you

14    were demobilised in September 1993.

15       A.   I was demobilised from the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16       Q.   At the beginning of the war in 1992, in April 1992, were you in

17    Kakanj?

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   During that period, after the beginning of the war, were you the

20    commander of some unit that had been established in Kakanj?

21       A.   Are you referring to the period after the aggression?

22       Q.   After the beginning of the aggression and before the 7th Brigade

23    was established.

24       A.   No, I wasn't a commander.

25            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we just have two

Page 18688

 1    documents we would like to use, and with your leave, I would like to show

 2    these two documents to the witness.

 3       Q.   Could you please have a look at the document dated October 1992 --

 4    in fact, the 5th of November, 1992.  It's a list of men who were

 5    mobilised.  Have a look at the document and tell us what the document is

 6    and who the individuals on the list are, but first of all tell us whether

 7    you recognise the document.

 8       A.   Yes, I am familiar with this document.  At this time, the

 9    battalion had not yet been established, but there were men out of whom

10    independent platoons were established through the municipal secretariat

11    for defence, which was involved in carrying out the mobilisation.  And

12    this was done with agreement of the command of the municipal defence

13    staff, which was part of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and

14    Herzegovina.  This is a list of men who were members of the independent

15    Trsce Detachment -- Platoon.

16            THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

17            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And since these are men who were

18    very young at the time and hadn't served in the JNA, in the Yugoslav

19    Peoples' Army.  And before engaging them in combat, it was necessary to

20    provide them with basic training.

21       Q.   Do you recognise the person who signed the document, Fadil

22    Imamovic?  Do you know who this person is?

23       A.   This is the Chief of Staff, Fadil Imamovic, who carried out those

24    duties in the Kakanj municipal staff at the time.  I know him personally.

25       Q.   Did these men at any point in time become members of the 3rd

Page 18689

 1    Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade?

 2       A.   Yes.  These men subsequently became members of the 3rd Battalion

 3    of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

 4       Q.   When was the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade formed?

 5       A.   When we talk about the formation of any units and battalions, and

 6    that goes for the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade, well in the

 7    course of that period you have a certain period of time where certain

 8    preparations must be made, and such preparations include the document that

 9    I've just referred to.  And at that time, since we had no battalion, we

10    were -- or rather, we carried out all our tasks with the approval of the

11    command of the municipal defence staff.  And then in the month of

12    December, and that already refers to the second document I believe, so in

13    December, following an order, we created the 3rd Battalion of the 7th

14    Muslim Brigade whereupon we got our own seal and stamp and then we were

15    allowed to carry out the relevant duties having to do with the setting up

16    of the battalion, of course, with the approval of our superiors.

17       Q.   This document number two, I mean the second document that you

18    looked at, does it illustrate what you've just explained?  Does it refer

19    to the setting up of the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Brigade?

20       A.   Yes, that's the document in question.

21       Q.   Thank you.  Where was the 3rd Battalion stationed, the 3rd

22    Battalion of the 7th Brigade?

23       A.   The first location was in a village of Doboj, near Kakanj, at the

24    primary school.  This was a the area, or rather a facility that had been

25    offered to us, and of course we accepted it.

Page 18690

 1       Q.   How long did you stay there and where did you move later?

 2       A.   Since the school had to be vacated for the purposes of the school

 3    activity proper, the War Presidency of the municipality of Kakanj at some

 4    point, if I remember correctly, I think it was in the month of March - it

 5    was still quite cold, there was no heating at the hotel - but they offered

 6    us the premises at the hotel or motel, as it used to be called, Sretno in

 7    Kakanj.  And initially it had been built as a hotel or restaurant, and so

 8    it was not convenient for us but we had no choice, we had to take it.

 9       Q.   Can you explain what you mean when you say it's not convenient?

10       A.   Well, barracks for soldiers are never built on the motorway or the

11    ramps for getting on and off the motorway or in valleys where there are

12    mountains very close to you and possibly there could be a threat coming --

13    an armed threat coming from those mountains.  So what I mean, it is a good

14    location for a hotel, but when we are talking about barracks in terms of

15    security, it is inappropriate.

16       Q.   Can you tell me about the soldiers who joined the 3rd Battalion of

17    the 7th Muslim Brigade, where were they from?  What area did they come

18    from?

19       A.   The 3rd Battalion was, for the most part, manned by local people

20    from the area of the municipality of Kakanj, and about 99 per cent of them

21    were local people from Kakanj and they all knew one another, we all knew

22    one another.  And perhaps there were a couple of people who were refugees,

23    temporarily residing at Kakanj, but for the most part we are talking about

24    Bosniaks.

25       Q.   In terms of the actual formation, what was the manning strength

Page 18691

 1    and -- of this battalion when you were commander in 1993?

 2       A.   Well, our desire and our goal was to set up a mountain battalion;

 3    however, in terms of manning strength, we can say that we were only

 4    working at a capacity of about 35 per cent.  So our companies, what we

 5    called companies, had about 55 people each.  We had two companies and what

 6    we called a command for battalion.  So all in all, between 120 and 130

 7    members whilst I was there, and we called the formation the 3rd Battalion

 8    of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

 9            Obviously our housing facilities or the MTS that we had at our

10    disposal did not allow us to arrive at the level of a battalion in terms

11    of manning strength either.

12       Q.   When did you become commander of this battalion?

13       A.   De facto, I became commander at the very beginning, I mean at the

14    time when this list of young men was being drawn up.  We had no premises

15    or anything at the time.  I used to work at the command of the municipal

16    defence staff, which means that I was in charge of these types of tasks.

17    So there is no clear dividing line, but I became commander whilst this

18    battalion was in the process of being set up, so I was the first commander

19    basically.  So if we refer to the order about the setting up of the

20    battalion and the battalion coming in existence and from the very start, I

21    was the commander.

22       Q.   Until when did you remain commander and for what reason did you

23    not stay in that position?

24       A.   I was educated in mechanic engineering; I'm an engineer.  So in

25    terms of defending the country from aggression and making my own

Page 18692

 1    contribution in the course of that process, I've joined in simply in order

 2    to protect my family and to protect the area, the country, that I was

 3    living in.  So I was not trained to carry out these tasks, war-related

 4    duties, I mean defence, command, and all that.  And following my own

 5    personal request, I was asked for professional officer to be sent down and

 6    to take up this post of commander, and I accepted that I could act as an

 7    assistant for those duties that that future commander would think

 8    appropriate that I should do.  And I think about -- I must have remained

 9    in the post of commander until the 22nd of February; and after that, I was

10    the deputy commander of the battalion.

11       Q.   Line 10 -- or rather page 10, line 20, for the sake of the

12    transcript, I would just like to repeat the question when you referred to

13    the members of the 3rd Battalion.  My understanding was that you said that

14    all members of the battalion were Bosniaks; is that correct?

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   Where were the soldiers of the 3rd Battalion trained, and what

17    sort of training was that?

18       A.   It was necessary to have certain training, but we did not have the

19    necessary conditions for such activity.  For this reason, we had to make

20    due which means that in between combat activity, we tried to train people,

21    mostly at the Doboj school when we were there in classrooms or at the

22    gym.  And the other part of this training, mostly in terms of marches and

23    orientation exercises, et cetera, would take them out into the mountains

24    above Kakanj and pretty close to this school in Doboj, because we did not

25    really want to provoke or irritate or disturb the local population.  And

Page 18693

 1    we didn't want either to disturb them or to be disturbed by them.

 2       Q.   And in the course of that period of time when you were commander

 3    of this battalion, was the battalion involved in any combat activity and

 4    was it stationed in the area or was spending time in the area of Bijelo

 5    Bucje, if you are familiar with the area at all.

 6       A.   Yes, of course I'm very familiar with the area of Bijelo Bucje

 7    because I was there with the army at Bijelo Bucje -- well, the army was

 8    there in January and February.  So one group was there in January and

 9    another group went up in February.

10       Q.   Were members of your battalion involved in any combat activity in

11    the area or were they just holding the Defence lines, can you clarify,

12    please?

13       A.   Our task was to monitor the line at Bijelo Bucje, that is to say

14    just above the village of Bijelo Bucje; that was our exclusive task as it

15    were.  And in the course of our stay there, there were no attacks coming

16    from the Serb side.

17       Q.   Throughout your time with the battalion, you were first commander

18    and then deputy commander.  As the commanding officer, were you receiving

19    any sort of pay, wages, something like that?

20       A.   I did not.  And the fighters, members of the 3rd Battalion, did

21    not get any wages in money, in cash.  What we did get -- well, we used to

22    receive some of the basic staple foods, as it were, as much as it was

23    possible to provide that, and that applied to all the other army units.

24    They were in the same situation, the other brigades, I mean.

25       Q.   Mr. Alajbegovic, I'd like to move on to a different topic now.  So

Page 18694












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Page 18695

 1    I'm going to ask you whether you've heard at some point in May 1993 about

 2    certain incidents taking place in Kakanj, mid-May 1993, and can you tell

 3    us what those incidents were all about?

 4       A.   I did hear that at some point mid-1993, an incident took place at

 5    Kakanj.  There was something between the brigade military police and the

 6    members of the HVO.

 7       Q.   According to your knowledge, what actually happened mid-May 1993?

 8       A.   What I know is that members of military police were supposed to

 9    bring in or detain certain members of the 7th Brigade who, after their

10    leave, did not report back on duty to their units of origin.  And also,

11    they were driving somewhere in the direction of the power plant, in the

12    direction of those villages.  When passing through a village, which we at

13    Kakanj called Rampa [phoen], they came across members of HVO and there was

14    some shooting, and that information reached the barracks through the

15    members of military police who managed to return to barracks where they

16    informed us that several military police members had been detained in that

17    area.

18       Q.   Do you know what happened afterwards?

19       A.   Well, whilst all this was going on, I was not in the barracks

20    myself, I was in town.  And upon my return at some point in early evening,

21    I was told about these military policemen who had come back, apparently

22    out of fear of their colleagues who had been taken prisoner, been killed,

23    that they had taken a certain number of the members of the HVO from the

24    nearby village.  And I think the village was called Povezice.  There is a

25    railway station there.

Page 18696

 1            Having heard what had happened, I got in touch with the command of

 2    the 309th Brigade, and Kakanj was in their area of responsibility.  My

 3    intention was to establish some sort of contact with the HVO command in

 4    Kakanj and to start talks, to start negotiations, in order to avoid any

 5    undesirable situations and in order for people on both sides to be

 6    released.

 7       Q.   Do you know the name of the commander of the 309th Brigade?

 8       A.   At that time, the commander of the 309th Brigade was Dzemal

 9    Hadzic.

10       Q.   Are you aware of this commander having taken any steps in order to

11    try and solve this problem, to resolve this situation?

12       A.   Yes, he got in touch with the HVO commander Neven Maric, I believe

13    that -- I don't know whether it was the French UNPROFOR Battalion or who,

14    but they apparently found out about this incident pretty soon and they got

15    involved in these talks, but I myself was not present.

16       Q.   Do you know whether these negotiations were held?

17       A.   At the time they said they had been held.  The information we were

18    provided with confirmed the fact that they had been held.

19       Q.   On that day or later on, did you receive any information on the

20    outcome of those negotiations?

21       A.   We were then told that people who'd been detained in that part of

22    the settlement had been released as a result of UNPROFOR action, and one

23    member of the military police had been escorted by UNPROFOR and he was

24    wounded.  I really don't know what sort of wounds he had.

25       Q.   Is this a military policeman from the 7th Muslim Brigade or the

Page 18697

 1    HVO?

 2       A.   He was a member of the brigade military police from the 7th Muslim

 3    Brigade.  All these policemen were released late in the evening.

 4       Q.   Afterwards, did you hear anything about the HVO members being

 5    released?

 6       A.   The brigade military police, after that event, I think it was on

 7    the following day, they released the members that they had captured in

 8    order to organise an exchange.

 9       Q.   Do you know whether on that day or later on, Mr. Kubura stayed in

10    Kakanj?

11       A.   Amir Kubura didn't stay in Kakanj on that day or on the following

12    day.  He did not appear in the barracks where we were.

13       Q.   You say he didn't appear in the barracks on that day.  As a rule

14    when someone from the command brigade in Zenica came to the barracks,

15    would the battalion command be aware of the fact or was some other

16    procedure followed?

17       A.   Well, usually, the battalion command would be aware of the fact

18    that someone from the brigade command was coming.  It wouldn't be possible

19    for someone to come in secret without having announced his visit.

20       Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Alajbegovic, sometime in the beginning of June

21    1993, was your battalion engaged in combat in the Ovnak sector?

22       A.   Yes.  Our battalion was engaged in combat in the Ovnak sector at

23    the beginning of June.

24       Q.   You were then the deputy commander?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 18698

 1       Q.   In what way and how many battalion members reached the Ovnak

 2    sector?

 3       A.   In the area of deployment, which is near Ovnak -- well, about a

 4    hundred of us arrived in that area, about a hundred combatants arrived

 5    there.

 6       Q.   How were the troops transported there?

 7       A.   They were driven there in buses from Kakanj; from Kakanj to

 8    Zenica; and then from Zenica, buses took them to deployment area in the

 9    vicinity of Ovnak.

10       Q.   Where were the members of your battalion billeted when you arrived

11    in the Ovnak sector?

12       A.   Our men were billeted in the Pojske area, in the village of

13    Pojske.

14            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your leave,

15    we would like to use a map.  Perhaps the witness could indicate the

16    position of the 3rd Battalion on the map.

17       Q.   Could you first show us where the village of Pojske is.  You might

18    need a little time to find it.  Could you draw a circle around it.

19       A.   [Marks]

20            This is the village of Pojske.

21       Q.   Could you mark it with number 1; this will enable us to follow

22    everything.

23       A.   [Marks]

24       Q.   Upon arriving in the village of Pojske, what happened,

25    Mr. Alajbegovic?

Page 18699

 1       A.   Upon arriving in the village of Pojske, I think it was on the 6th

 2    of June, the troops were deployed in the village.  And on the 7th, an

 3    attempt was made to raid the blockade of the road, but the 3rd Battalion

 4    didn't participate in this action.  On the 8th of June, part of the

 5    battalion remained in the Crni Vrh area with the 2nd Battalion and another

 6    unit, one company, went to the Strmac axis.

 7       Q.   Where were you, Mr. Alajbegovic?

 8       A.   I was on the Strmac axis with this unit.

 9       Q.   Could you have a look at the map and indicate the location of

10    Strmac.

11       A.   [Marks]

12            The Strmac elevation.  Should I mark it with a number?

13       Q.   Mark it with number 2.

14       A.   [Marks]

15       Q.   When did combat start on that day and when did it end, the combat

16    that your battalion was involved in?

17       A.   On the 8th of June, the fighting started in the morning.  The task

18    was to take the Strmac elevation.  The fighting continued throughout the

19    day, and in the afternoon between 3.00 and 3.30 p.m. I was wounded.  I was

20    wounded at the Strmac elevation, and I was then evacuated and taken to the

21    Zenica hospital where I was provided with medical treatment; and I was

22    then transferred to Kakanj.  In Kakanj I went to the barracks to obtain

23    information on the situation and I think that I spent that night at home.

24       Q.   All of this took place on the 8th of June, 1993?

25       A.   Yes, on the 8th of June.  According to the information I obtained

Page 18700

 1    after I was wounded, half an hour or an hour later, I obtained information

 2    according to which the Strmac elevation had fallen; it had been taken.

 3       Q.   Did members of your battalion -- were members of your battalion

 4    engaged in settlements in inhabited settlements?  Did you enter inhabited

 5    settlements, such as the ones you have marked on this map?

 6       A.   Our main -- my main task was to assume control of certain

 7    elevations and to secure the road passing through Ovnak.

 8       Q.   I'll repeat my question.  Was there any fighting in inhabited

 9    villages?

10       A.   The fighting was on the Strmac elevation.  This is a hill that's

11    covered in forest, it's a mountain, in fact.  That's where there was

12    fighting, only in that area.  There were no houses in the vicinity.  The

13    Strmac hill is covered in forest, and then to the left there was a sort of

14    clearing.

15       Q.   Since you were wounded, you went to Zenica and then you arrived in

16    Kakanj on that very same day.  What was the situation in Kakanj like when

17    you arrived there?

18       A.   In the barracks, I obtained some information, and what I was told

19    was not very positive.  I was told that HVO members had stepped up their

20    activity on the elevations, increased numbers of HVO members were going

21    there, and the security situation in Kakanj was very worrying.

22       Q.   Were there any indications that there would be fighting?

23       A.   That was on the 8th.  And what I found out in the command of the

24    309th Brigade, since that was its zone of responsibility, members of the

25    7th Brigade were in the field, but according to what I found out there, in

Page 18701

 1    the furthest-removed villages towards Vares which were under the control

 2    of the HVO, they had already started torching certain features.  I think

 3    the village is called Kracici.  The inhabitants from that area, from that

 4    village, had asked for protection and it wasn't possible to reach that

 5    village because the HVO controlled the route of access to the village from

 6    the surrounding hills.

 7       Q.   When did the members of your battalion return to Kakanj?

 8       A.   The information that we had was forwarded and sent to the -- into

 9    the field where the troops were located.  And on the 9th, they arrived in

10    Kakanj in the evening.  They were taken there in an organised manner in

11    vehicles, and they went to the barracks to resupply themselves with

12    materiel and technical equipment.  And then vehicles took them to the

13    village of Zagradje which is to the north of Kakanj; it's about 5 or 6

14    kilometres to the north of Kakanj.

15       Q.   Did the men have the possibility of going home once they had

16    arrived in the barracks, or did they immediately did to Zagradje, the

17    village that you have just mentioned?

18       A.   The soldiers stayed in the barracks for as long as it was

19    necessary in order to resupply themselves with the necessary amount of

20    materiel and technical equipment, which they needed to engage in

21    forthcoming combat.

22       Q.   Did they go to their homes at all, or did they go to carry out a

23    new task from the barracks?

24       A.   No, they didn't go home.  They didn't have time to go home, in

25    particular since many of the villages that the men were from could not be

Page 18702

 1    reached, because the area in which their houses were located was under HVO

 2    control on the whole.

 3       Q.   Where were you when the soldiers arrived?

 4       A.   I was in the barracks.

 5       Q.   Did you see them arriving?

 6       A.   Yes, I did.

 7       Q.   Were you present when they set off in the direction of the village

 8    of Zagradje?

 9       A.   Yes, I was.

10       Q.   Could you please tell us where the village of Zagradje is located?

11       A.   The village of Zagradje is inhabited by Bosniaks alone; it's 5 to

12    6 kilometres to the north of Kakanj.

13            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, with your leave,

14    since the witness knows where this village is located and this village has

15    been mentioned on a number of occasions in the course of the proceedings,

16    with your leave, we would like to ask the witness to mark the location of

17    this village?

18            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I number them?

19            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

20       Q.   Yes.

21       A.   [Marks]

22       Q.   In whose area of responsibility is this village, Zagradje?

23       A.   The question is in the area of the municipality of Kakanj, and at

24    the time, it was in the area covered by the 309th Brigade.  It was the

25    brigade which is actually domiciled, stationed, in Kakanj.

Page 18703

 1            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] If I may, Mr. President, I would

 2    like the witness to sign both maps and date them as well.

 3       Q.   You can put your signature in the white part of the document, and

 4    please could you date them as well.

 5       A.   [Marks]

 6       Q.   Did you meet Mr. Kubura and when?  In what way did you meet?  How

 7    long have you known him?

 8       A.   I met Mr. Amir Kubura in December 1992 whilst he was carrying out

 9    the duty -- I believe the duty of the commander of the battalion which

10    belonged to the 333rd Brigade, and it was at the open-cast mine near

11    Kakanj because at the time, we had certain joint activities under the

12    command of the municipal defence staff in the direction of Sarajevo.

13       Q.   Did you meet him whilst he was a member of the 7th Brigade -- I

14    mean, did you ever meet with him in the course of that period of time?

15       A.   Yes, of course.

16       Q.   Do you know what duty, what function, he had within the 7th

17    Brigade?

18       A.   During the period of time that I was a member as well, we tended

19    to address Amir Kubura as chief of -- as chief.  He was the Chief of

20    Staff.  And afterwards, when I was receiving medical treatment by the end

21    of that period when I was about to be demobilised, I heard at some point

22    in August, I believe, that he had been appointed commander of the 7th

23    Brigade.

24       Q.   Just one more question to conclude.  Were you at any point in time

25    the first man, the chief of the municipality of Kakanj?

Page 18704

 1       A.   By the end of 1999, the high representative replaced the

 2    then-municipal chief of Kakanj, and in the course of that period between

 3    January and May, I carried out the duties of the municipal chief in

 4    Kakanj.

 5       Q.   As the first man of the municipality of Kakanj, did you ever have

 6    any contacts with Croat representatives of the Croat population returning

 7    to Kakanj?

 8       A.   Of course.  There were certain projects that I worked on together

 9    with Mr. Niko Lozancic who, at the time, was the presiding officer of the

10    house of representatives of the federation.  And also with Franjo

11    Petricevic, who at the time was minister for the economics, agriculture,

12    and mining in the canton that the municipality of Kakanj belongs to.  It

13    was a period of very intense implementation of the Dayton Accord.  More

14    specifically, a period in which property was being returned - when I

15    say "property," I mostly mean housing, residential property - it was being

16    returned to prewar occupants and owners, as well as a period of

17    cooperation in the field of culture on the basis of certain associations

18    which were also Croatian associations.

19       Q.   This is a bit of a sensitive issue, but what was the general

20    assessment of your work?

21       A.   If we can talk about assessment, I was accountable to the

22    municipal council which had appointed me in the first place, and my

23    proposal, starting from the budgetary proposals and everything else, used

24    to be approved unanimously.  And apart from Bosniaks, there were other

25    members, Croat members, sitting on that council.

Page 18705

 1       Q.   When I asked this question, what I meant what was the assessment

 2    of your work on the part of the Croat population and the Croat

 3    dignitaries?

 4       A.   I remember the congratulations -- and actually at the same time,

 5    it was an invitation to attend a gathering organised by a Croat cultural

 6    society called Napredak, Progress.  And they both congratulated me on my

 7    election to the post of municipal chief at Kakanj and wishing me all the

 8    best in the course of my term of office, saying that they wish me a great

 9    deal of success and they hope that I would be as fair as I used to be

10    before.

11       Q.   Thank you.

12            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] That concludes our

13    examination-in-chief.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.  Before the break,

15    the other lawyers.

16            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we do have a couple

17    of questions.

18                          Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

19       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Alajbegovic, in your answer to my learned

20    colleague's questions, you mentioned in the month of May an incident took

21    place.  On that occasion, HVO took prisoner a certain number of military

22    police officers of the 7th Muslim Brigade; is that correct?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Prior to that, both Croats and Muslims in Kakanj used to co-exist

25    and live together without any major incidents, and together with the

Page 18706

 1    commander of the 309th Mountain Brigade you tried to resolve the situation

 2    relating to this incident as soon as possible; is that the correct

 3    assessment?

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   As you've already told my colleague, on the very next day there

 6    was the exchange of prisoners.  What I would like you to tell me,

 7    Mr. Alajbegovic, is:  Is it correct that no one or none of the Croatian

 8    prisoners or their families had ever complained about being treated

 9    unfairly and that you had never received any formal complaint or report in

10    this respect?

11       A.   Precisely.  I was not aware of any such complaints, and I lived in

12    the area afterwards and nobody came forward and nobody complained of any

13    sort of injustice or unfairness in the course of that period.

14       Q.   So basically, the only things you found out was that UNPROFOR

15    brought in, on a stretcher, one member of the 7th Muslim Brigade who

16    was -- on the occasion of that operation, who had been beaten up by the

17    HVO members; is that the only piece of information that you received?

18       A.   Yes, that is correct.  I had heard that he had been beaten up, but

19    actually I was told that he was wounded.  And I had never seen him, so I

20    don't know what sort of injuries he had.

21       Q.   I just have a number of shorter questions now.  Can you tell me if

22    you knew at the time who was the commander of the 3rd Corps, within which

23    the 7th Muslim Brigade was included?

24       A.   In the course of that period of time, I believe that it was

25    Mr. Enver Hadzihasanovic.  And so at that time, as deputy commander, I was

Page 18707

 1    never in touch with anyone else -- I mean I was in touch with the

 2    commander of the battalion, and then it was up to him.  So I can't really

 3    say with any degree of certainty.

 4       Q.   However, in the course of the period of time that you spent within

 5    the 3rd Battalion, you never met with Mr. Hadzihasanovic in Kakanj, you

 6    never met him and you never saw him in Kakanj?

 7       A.   All I know about Mr. Hadzihasanovic is that his family was

 8    somewhere near Kakanj or in Kakanj, but I've never come across him

 9    personally in Kakanj.

10       Q.   And to conclude, in conjunction with this period of time in the

11    month of June, you said that whilst you, the armed forces from Kakanj,

12    were engaged in combat operations at Ovnak, the HVO took hold of dominant

13    elevations around Kakanj and were -- that they were occupying those

14    positions in stronger numbers.  And that's the information that you

15    received when you came back that evening?

16       A.   Yes.

17       Q.   And prior to that, you had encountered numerous incidents provoked

18    by the HVO in the area of Kakanj and within Kakanj, but you and the 309th

19    Brigade both tried to avoid any confrontation and to make sure that all

20    those incidents could be resolved peacefully and smoothed out; is that

21    correct?

22       A.   Yes, that's correct.

23       Q.   Only when HVO started attacking and torching the villages

24    inhabited by Muslim population, such as on the 9th of June, there was an

25    all-out confrontation with HVO; is that what you said in reply to

Page 18708












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 18709

 1    questions put to you by my colleagues?

 2       A.   Yes.

 3            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much,

 4    Mr. President.  I have no further questions.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.  It's 25 to.  We

 6    shall have a break now and we'll continue at 4.00.

 7                          --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.

 8                          --- On resuming at 4.01 p.m.

 9            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The hearing continues.  I'm

10    going to give the floor to the Prosecution for the cross-examination.

11                          Cross-examined by Mr. Neuner:

12       Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Alajbegovic.  My name is Matthias Neuner, and

13    I'm appearing here along with my colleagues on behalf of the Prosecution.

14    I'm going to put a couple of questions to you, and if you don't understand

15    one of these questions, please ask me to repeat it or to rephrase it if

16    necessary.  Do you understand this?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   After 22nd February, 1993, a commander took over command of the

19    3rd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.  Was the name of this

20    commander Nihad Catic?

21       A.   Yes, his name was Nihad Catic.

22       Q.   Thank you.  And throughout your service for the 3rd Battalion of

23    the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, did Mr. Nihad Catic remain your superior?

24       A.   Yes, after that period -- when he arrived, yes, he was my

25    superior.

Page 18710

 1       Q.   And until the end of your service, including the Ovnak operation,

 2    Mr. Catic was your commander?

 3       A.   Yes.

 4       Q.   As you -- as an acting commander, did also Mr. Nihad Catic report

 5    in the first half of 1993 on the one hand side to the commander of the 7th

 6    Muslim Mountain Brigade and on the other hand side to the 3rd Corps

 7    command?

 8       A.   The command of the battalion was accountable to the command of the

 9    7th Muslim Brigade; they were their superiors.  And the 7th Muslim Brigade

10    was within the framework of the 3rd Corps of the armed forces of the

11    Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

12       Q.   Did it happen also that reports were sent from the 7th Muslim

13    Mountain Brigade, 3rd Battalion commander, directly to the 3rd Corps

14    command, wasn't it?

15       A.   I think that during the time that I was commander, I don't think

16    it ever happened and I don't suppose it happened when we had another

17    commander at the battalion.

18            MR. NEUNER:  With the assistance of the usher, may I have document

19    Prosecution Exhibit P533 distributed.  We have copies for everybody.

20       Q.   This is a report on the 3rd battalion work and implementation of

21    tasks dating 8 March 1993.  And, Witness, I ask you to look only at the

22    first page, and if you look to at the "sent to" section on the lower

23    left-hand side of the first page, do you see that this 3rd Battalion

24    report is being sent to the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade command as well as

25    to the command of the 3rd Corps?   Can you please just confirm.

Page 18711

 1       A.   This document that is being shown to me is apparently signed by

 2    the commander of the 3rd Battalion Nihad, probably Catic, it's under the

 3    stamp.  And apparently it was submitted to the superior command of the 7th

 4    Brigade [as interpreted]; and one copy the signatory kept for himself, and

 5    one was filed in the archive.

 6       Q.   Thank you very much.

 7            MR. NEUNER:   The document may be removed.  Thank you.

 8       Q.   Within --

 9            MR. NEUNER:  I see my learned colleague on his feet.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

11            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

12    think that my learned colleague asked whether it was provided to the 3rd

13    Corps.  I don't know if that's an error in the transcript.  The witness

14    only said it was sent to the command of the 3rd Brigade and the command of

15    the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Brigade.

16            MR. NEUNER:  Thank you for this clarification.

17       Q.   In 1993 in the first half, you were, after the 22nd of February,

18    deputy commander of the 3rd Battalion and Mr. Catic was commander.  Can

19    you please confirm, there was no position of Chief of Staff within the 3rd

20    Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.

21       A.   As far as I can remember, in the battalion there was no Chief of

22    Staff at that time, not in the part that I was in command of.  As to

23    whether there was such a person at is subsequent date, I'm not certain.

24       Q.   However, on the level of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, the

25    brigade level itself, there was the position of a Chief of Staff; is that

Page 18712

 1    correct?

 2       A.   Yes, there was the position of the Chief of Staff within the

 3    brigade.

 4       Q.   So while on the brigade level, there was a Chief of Staff, no such

 5    position was contained or provided for on the battalion level, especially

 6    not on the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?  Can you

 7    please confirm.

 8       A.   In the mountain battalion, as far as I can remember, there was no

 9    Chief of Staff.

10       Q.   You refer to mountain battalion, you're referring to your 3rd

11    Battalion, or are you referring to all three battalions of the 7th Muslim

12    Mountain Brigade which did not have a position of Chief of Staff?   Please

13    clarify.

14       A.   No, no.  I'm talking about the 3rd Battalion.  As for the other

15    ones, I'm not familiar with the situation.

16       Q.   Thank you.  I want to ask you whether you know Mr. Saban Zunic,

17    Z-u-n-i-c, Mr. Saban Zunic; have you ever heard his name?

18       A.   I don't remember having heard that name.  I don't remember Saban

19    Zunic.

20       Q.   I want to switch to March 1993, and you mentioned that the 3rd

21    Battalion moved to Motel Sretno.  What I wanted to ask you:  Was also the

22    3rd Battalion command moving to Motel Sretno in March 1993?

23       A.   The entire unit moved out of the school and moved into Motel

24    Sretno.

25       Q.   Motel Sretno was a building with several floors.  On which of

Page 18713

 1    these floors was the command, the battalion command, located post-March

 2    1993?

 3       A.   There were two offices on the ground floor.

 4       Q.   You're referring to two offices.  Are you referring to your own

 5    office also and also to the office of Mr. Nihad Catic?

 6       A.   There was Nihad Catic's office, and there was another small office

 7    which I would occasionally use; and these two offices were on the ground

 8    floor.

 9       Q.   So people -- persons who entered Motel Sretno, did they have to

10    pass by the battalion command's offices, or were these two offices you

11    just described more distant, meaning somewhere in the back of the ground

12    floor, so that visitors didn't pass by upon entering the building?

13       A.   There were several entrances, or rather, exits that Motel Sretno

14    had since this was a catering establishment.  So people entering the

15    building or leaving the building could use any of those entrances.

16       Q.   I'm just trying to clarify.  So if you -- was there a main

17    entrance, first of all, which was usually used and what was the position

18    of the command's office in relation to that main entrance, if there was

19    any?

20       A.   Well, the main entrance, the offices were to the right of the main

21    entrance.  They were behind the hotel reception desk.  It was not possible

22    to see who was entering or leaving the hotel from the offices if the doors

23    were closed.

24       Q.   Was there also a part in Motel Sretno where a kind of temporary

25    warehouse was established, where goods, MTS items, could be stored; and if

Page 18714

 1    so, where was it?

 2       A.   The motel had a part which was used as a warehouse.  Goods would

 3    be delivered to that part behind the motel, behind the main entrance.  I

 4    think that that was the part used as a warehouse, and there was another

 5    part that we used for the little materiel and technical equipment that we

 6    had.

 7       Q.   Was there also a facility where prisoners -- if any were taken,

 8    where prisoners could be kept in Motel Sretno?

 9       A.   As far as I know, there was no area in which would be used to

10    detain individuals who would have the status of some kind of a prisoner.

11       Q.   Does this imply that prisoners weren't held in Motel Sretno at

12    all, or at least at some point in time temporarily prisoners were hold --

13    were held in Motel Sretno in the first half of 1993?

14       A.   As far as I know, given the information that I had during the

15    period when there was an incident that concerned obtaining the release of

16    the members of the military police who had been captured -- as far as I

17    know, the military policemen who managed to escape capture, and they

18    brought in a certain number of HVO members.  I don't know the identity of

19    the individuals they brought in, nor do I know how many individuals were

20    brought in.  I did not see them, nor did I know which part of the hotel

21    they were being kept in at the time, but I heard that a certain number of

22    HVO members had been brought in.

23            So as far as the details are concerned, as far as the

24    accommodation they had, et cetera, there is nothing that I could tell

25    you.  I wasn't present there.  All I know is what I heard from others when

Page 18715

 1    I returned to the barracks.  I was focused on establishing negotiations

 2    and on trying to resolve the difficulty we had run into in a peaceful

 3    manner.

 4       Q.   You mentioned military policemen who took prisoners.  Were these

 5    military policemen of the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade

 6    or military policemen attached directly to the brigade, meaning military

 7    policemen from Zenica, do you know?

 8       A.   When I refer to military policemen, I'm referring to the brigade

 9    military policemen who set off to carry out their task which was to bring

10    in members of the 7th Brigade who had failed to report back to the brigade

11    after they had been granted leave.  And when I'm referring to this group

12    of men, it's necessary to distinguish two components:  We have the men who

13    were captured by the HVO, and the other component concerns the policemen

14    that managed to escape when the shooting broke out and they managed to

15    return to the hotel.

16            As far as bringing individuals in is concerned, the military

17    policemen who managed to return brought in HVO members; they were the ones

18    who brought in HVO members.  The battalion only had two or three policemen

19    that mainly provided security for the building, for the entrances, et

20    cetera.  These were the regular duties that they had to perform at the

21    main entrance.

22       Q.   So the military policemen which, on the 18th of May, 1993,

23    captured, as you put it, HVO members, these military police members are

24    distinct from others who just were on sentry duty, who guarded Motel

25    Sretno?  Can you just clarify, please.

Page 18716

 1       A.   Could you please repeat the question?

 2       Q.   Certainly.

 3            You, as far as I understood your answer, made a distinction among

 4    the military policemen, and I'm personally only interested in military

 5    policemen who, as you put it, escaped being arrested themselves and who

 6    subsequently took, as you put it, HVO members prisoners.  These military

 7    policemen who captured HVO men on the 18th of May, 1993, these military

 8    policemen, were they coming from Zenica or were they employed constantly

 9    in the 3rd Battalion in Kakanj to guard the building?  Can you just

10    clarify, please.

11       A.   HVO members were captured by members of the brigade military

12    police who managed to avoid being captured, so the battalion military

13    police did not bring these men in.

14       Q.   Thank you for the clarification.  How did the brigade military --

15    or when did the brigade military policemen arrive?  Did they arrive on the

16    18th of May, to the best of your recollection, or a day or two earlier?

17    What do you know?

18       A.   They arrived there on that day, on the 18th, in the afternoon.

19    Everything took place very rapidly.  One might say that everything took

20    place within an hour.

21       Q.   To the best of your knowledge, who had sent these military

22    policemen on the 18th in the afternoon?

23       A.   I don't know.

24       Q.   Do you know whether they reported to anybody in the 3rd Battalion

25    on the 18th of May, 1993?

Page 18717

 1       A.   I don't know.

 2       Q.   You, yourself, stated you were in town on the 18th of May, 1993,

 3    and you arrived in the evening at Motel Sretno.  Can you clarify what you

 4    mean by "evening."  What time, if you remember?

 5       A.   I can't remember when they arrived, but there was the shooting

 6    that had broken out and HVO members had already been brought in.  In fact,

 7    that is when I found out about what had happened.

 8       Q.   So who told you, upon return to Motel Sretno, what had happened

 9    and what were you told?

10       A.   All of this happened a long time ago so it's difficult for me to

11    remember such details, but I think that one of the soldiers I met on the

12    grounds at the hotel provided me with this information.

13       Q.   This moment when you returned from -- to Motel Sretno, who was the

14    most senior officer at Motel Sretno?

15       A.   As far as I can remember, it was the battalion commander.

16       Q.   Did you speak to Nihad Catic on that evening?

17       A.   We were both trying to establish contact with the HVO through the

18    intermediary of the command of the 309th -- through the intermediary of

19    all those who could assist in resolving the difficulties in order to avoid

20    other negative consequences.

21       Q.   Who was the senior person among the military police from the 7th

22    Muslim Mountain Brigade in Zenica on the 18th of May at Motel Sretno?  Who

23    was the most senior person among this -- from this group?

24       A.   I did not personally know those military policemen.  I didn't know

25    any of them, and I don't know whether there was an officer among them or

Page 18718

 1    perhaps it was just a group of military policemen.  These people, these

 2    men, were not from Kakanj, they were from Zenica.  When they arrived, I

 3    was not in the barracks.  They didn't report to me, so I wasn't in a

 4    position to know whether there was anyone who had a high rank or a low

 5    rank.  I didn't even know how many of them there were.  I didn't know

 6    these people.

 7       Q.   How long that evening did you stay in Motel Sretno?

 8       A.   I don't know how long I stayed there that evening.  I know that I

 9    was in contact with this brigade.  I don't know when, but it was quite

10    late in the evening when I went home to stay the night there, and that is

11    about 5 kilometres from Kakanj; that is where my home was located.

12       Q.   So you went home late in the evening.  Until you went home, were

13    there more persons brought to Motel Sretno from outside?  I'm referring to

14    persons who were detained.

15       A.   During that time, no people were brought in except for the ones

16    who had been brought in before, I mean I've mentioned the military police

17    before.

18       Q.   To the best of your knowledge, who was in charge of the persons

19    detained that evening?

20       A.   My activity was aimed at obtaining certain information and

21    mobilising people to start negotiating and getting in touch with these

22    people.  So no special attention was being paid, at least on my part as

23    deputy commander, to who exactly was in charge of the detained persons.  I

24    wouldn't be able to tell you, really.  So the military police were present

25    there and whilst the -- waiting for the return of the other police

Page 18719

 1    officers and to have this exchange with regard to the detained HVO

 2    members.

 3       Q.   You said you dealt with contacting negotiators.  What was your

 4    commander, Mr. Nihad Catic, doing that evening?

 5       A.   He was involved in the same job.

 6       Q.   So both of you paid attention to the outside, meaning the

 7    negotiations, and you paid less attention to what was going inside Motel

 8    Sretno; is that correct?

 9       A.   Well, he was involved as commander because he was not from Kakanj,

10    and I, myself, was from Kakanj.  And I was better acquainted with these

11    people as the commander of the 390th [as interpreted] Brigade, and so

12    that's why I was drafted in as well.  And so we were focussing on these

13    negotiations for the release of the military police members in order to be

14    able to have this exchange of prisoners and take things back to the way

15    they were before.

16       Q.   Do you know whether a guerilla group was in the Motel Sretno that

17    evening?

18       A.   What guerilla group are you referring to?

19       Q.   I'm referring to a guerilla group, Mountain Guerilla or Planina

20    Guerilla which, according to a document, was sent to the 3rd Battalion

21    command in Kakanj.  This is Prosecution Exhibit P681, and the stamp on the

22    document is the 19th of May, 1993.

23       A.   Except for the military police, I did not see at the hotel anyone

24    else.  I didn't see anyone else, other than the military police from the

25    7th Brigade.

Page 18720

 1       Q.   So on the 19th of May, were you also at Motel Sretno and you also

 2    didn't see a guerilla group?

 3       A.   Yes, that's correct.

 4       Q.   Thank you.

 5            MR. NEUNER:  With the assistance of the usher, may have Exhibit

 6    P -- oh, I withdraw that.

 7       Q.   You talked about the negotiations in which you were directly or

 8    indirectly involved.  These negotiations, did they go on on the 19th of

 9    May at this thermoelectric power plant in Catici?  Please confirm.

10       A.   When I referred to negotiations, what I'm talking about is

11    activities which were underway a couple of hours after this incident and

12    immediately after the incident.

13       Q.   And do you know where these negotiations took place?

14       A.   I was told that certain talks were being held.  I wouldn't know

15    where exactly, but where I was, it was the command of the 309th Brigade,

16    but I don't know whether anything was taking place anywhere else.

17       Q.   When the negotiations were finally successful, the prisoners or

18    the detainees were exchanged.  Who took the prisoners out of Motel Sretno

19    in order to have them exchanged; do you recall?

20       A.   I don't.  I did not see the detainees.  I did not see them and I

21    don't know who released them from the motel, and I don't even know how

22    many there were.

23            MR. NEUNER:  With the assistance of the usher, can I please have

24    P728 distributed.

25       Q.   The only reason for having this document distributed is:  Can you

Page 18721

 1    please confirm that this is your signature?  It's a document dating from

 2    or stamped on the 19th of April, 1993, so a month before the events we

 3    just discussed about.  Is that your signature, please?

 4       A.   Yes, that's my signature.

 5       Q.   You're talking here in the heading -- or you address this document

 6    to the chief of the 7th Muslim Brigade.  Can you state who was the chief

 7    to whom you wanted to send this document on the 19th of April?  Who was

 8    the addressee?

 9       A.   The chief at the time -- I mean, we addressed Mr. Amir Kubura as

10    the chief at that time.

11       Q.   To the best of your recollection, do you know whether Mr. Asim

12    Koricic was at that time still in Central Bosnia?

13       A.   I don't remember.  I don't remember whether at the time he was in

14    Central Bosnia.

15       Q.   I want to take you to Ovnak.  Who was -- or there was a tactical

16    group who was in charge of the overall Ovnak operation, and the tactical

17    group was called Sedam.  Have you heard about this?

18       A.   I haven't heard of it, but I suppose my battalion commander, who

19    was my superior, must have heard.  I had not heard of it.

20       Q.   Can you please just confirm, the soldiers from the 3rd Battalion

21    of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, they returned to Kakanj on the 9th of

22    June, 1993, after the operation?

23       A.   Yes.

24       Q.   Were they accompanied by another battalion or were they just

25    coming on their own?

Page 18722












12   Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13   English transcripts.













Page 18723

 1       A.   At first, members of the 3rd Battalion came and they returned to

 2    barracks, they collected their MTS and then they were directed to guard

 3    again.  And I think immediately afterwards -- because for security

 4    reasons, you can't have a huge column of people going one after another,

 5    and I think that then it was the members of the 2nd Battalion who were

 6    also directed to go in the same direction.

 7       Q.   I want to switch the topic and talk about a meeting on the 13th of

 8    May, 1993, so roughly five days before the events in Kakanj.

 9            MR. NEUNER:  With the assistance of the usher may have document

10    P558 distributed.

11       Q.   These are meeting minutes from a meeting which you, yourself,

12    attended on the 13th of May.  And first of all, it states on the first

13    page that it was a meeting of the brigade command and the Sura [phoen].

14    Do you recall having attended this meeting on the 13th of May, 1993?

15       A.   I don't remember the date, but perhaps if I could look at the

16    contents and see what it was all about, perhaps I might remember.  I can't

17    tell you the date.  I can't tell whether it was on that date or not.  I

18    really can't

19       Q.   Please have a look at the document.  Your intervention is

20    mentioned on the second page in the B/C/S version, and for the others,

21    it's page 3 of the English version in the middle.  But please have a look

22    at it first.

23       A.   What I can recall is the following:  Right before this meeting, a

24    certain amount of MTOs [as interpreted] was determined in the course of

25    combat activity as having been taken from the HVO, somewhere in the

Page 18724

 1    vicinity of Zenica.  So we are talking about MTS vehicles and the

 2    equipment that had been used by the HVO forces and what was left behind

 3    when they withdrew before the units of the 7th Brigade.  So it was the

 4    equipment that could have been used in order to replenish our own

 5    resources in terms of materiel and technical equipment, and all of that

 6    was indispensable for the carrying out of our tasks.

 7       Q.   And was this operation on Mount Smaljevac, and the HVO equipment,

 8    was it based in Cocuka?  Does this ring a bell?  An operation on the 25th

 9    of April, 1993?

10       A.   I did not take part in this operation myself.  I was in Kakanj,

11    but members of the Kakanj Battalion was -- were led and the commander was

12    Mr. Catic, so I did not have access to documents as to the movements of

13    the unit or any other details with regard to their movements on the

14    terrain.

15       Q.   So Mr. Catic, along with a couple of soldiers from the 3rd

16    Battalion, participated in it but you didn't?

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   Your intervention relates to vehicles, your intervention during

19    this meeting, I'm referring to --

20            MR. NEUNER:  I see my learned friend on his feet.

21            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  My

22    basic comment is that this is outside the scope of the facts covered by

23    the indictment.  This is an event from the month of April and -- I mean

24    this event that the witness was referring to and the events that happened

25    in the vicinity of Zenica.

Page 18725

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] What do you have to say for

 2    yourself, Prosecution?

 3            MR. NEUNER:  Certainly, this event is outside the indictment or

 4    it's not charged in the indictment itself, but it relates to the treatment

 5    of war booty by members of the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain

 6    Brigade and the Prosecution believes it therefore might demonstrate -- or

 7    might be relevant as a kind of background for the treatment of war booty

 8    within that brigade.  And the witness has in the course of this meeting

 9    made a comment about it, and we believe since the author is here, he is

10    best placed to comment upon this.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.  As to this context,

12    go ahead and ask your question now.

13            MR. NEUNER:  Thank you.

14       Q.   If I can just -- or can you just -- it is mentioned here that

15    motor vehicles were driven away from Cocuka and a question of registering

16    came up.  Can you please read out what you contributed to this meeting.

17    Can you read out your intervention, please.

18       A.   When the war booty arrived at Kakanj, I did my best in order to

19    make sure that it was all recorded and it happened, and all the vehicles

20    were recorded and were under control, registered.

21       Q.   And can you please continue to read what Mr. Nesib Talic stated

22    following your remark.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  I was going to ask the

24    same question myself, in fact.

25            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] My learned colleague said that

Page 18726

 1    he would ask the witness to comment only on what he, himself, said in the

 2    course of this meeting, if my understanding was correct.

 3            MR. NEUNER:  Certainly the following comment was not made by the

 4    witness himself, but he attended the meeting and it is obviously in direct

 5    relation to what our witness had stated.  And the Prosecution believes

 6    that this is, in fact, the best way to get the background of what happened

 7    and what was discussed during the meeting.  We have an eye and an ear

 8    witness to the events.  So with the leave of the Chamber, I would ask the

 9    witness to continue, read out the comment of Mr. Nesib Talic.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, you have the authorisation,

11    because I was ask the same question anyway.

12            MR. NEUNER:

13       Q.   Can you please continue to read the intervention following yours,

14    intervention of Mr. Nesib Talic?

15       A.   Right, then.  Nesib Talic:  "All these problems are the result of

16    the presence of Turks, Arabs, and guerillas.  The security service will do

17    everything to secure the return of all stolen vehicles.  I propose that

18    rules be adopted at this meeting to avoid such situations being repeated."

19       Q.   And having attended this meeting, do you know what this means,

20    "the presence of Turks, Arabs, and guerillas," in relation to the stolen

21    vehicles?  What is the background?

22       A.   After such a long time, I can't recall details of that meeting.

23    I'm reading the report of what people said here.  All I can say is comment

24    on what I, myself, had said, but in conjunction with this comment by Nesib

25    Talic, I really don't remember what exactly happened at that meeting,

Page 18727

 1    whether he said this or not, I really can't remember.  What happened in

 2    Kakanj in relation to the war booty, I can, of course, tell you about that

 3    because I was at the barracks and I do remember certain details in

 4    relation to that.

 5       Q.   Can you please state where the vehicles were brought to.  Was this

 6    to Motel Sretno?  Where the warehouse was?  Can you please tell the Trial

 7    Chamber?

 8       A.   As to the aforementioned things, I mean those were vehicles, a

 9    couple of vehicles that were placed at the disposal of the battalion.  And

10    in order for that to be done, they had to be registered, as is indicated

11    here.  So what we were trying to do was the stuff that arrived to be

12    placed at the disposal of the battalion and under control, and in order to

13    avoid individuals using or misusing, abusing this property, because we

14    were talking about equipment which was necessary enough to carry out our

15    tasks and because the HVO forces used the same sort of equipment.

16       Q.   Do you know whether in summer 1993 an investigation was launched

17    into the issuance of permits for vehicles within the 3rd Battalion of the

18    7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

19       A.   Whilst I was at the battalion, there were no investigations.

20       Q.   In what period of time were no investigations?  Can you please

21    clarify.

22       A.   Until I was wounded, until the 8th when I was sent for treatment

23    and so I was no longer at the barracks.

24       Q.   And you say later on, or let's say do -- are you aware that later

25    on investigations were launched and why these investigations were

Page 18728

 1    launched?

 2       A.   I don't know.

 3       Q.   Now, given the advanced time, I just want to ask you for training

 4    in Zagradje.  At the end of May, do you recall being in Zagradje and

 5    staying with members of the 3rd Battalion in Zagradje for training?

 6       A.   Yes, I was at Zagradje.

 7       Q.   And I'm referring to a document, P564, and it's mentioned here

 8    that there was a camp site in Zagradje.  Just can you clarify where was a

 9    camp site or was there a camp site in Zagradje and where were soldiers

10    billeted in a village?

11       A.   Soldiers of the 3rd Battalion were at the district school, which

12    is at the village of Zagradje itself.

13       Q.   And does this mean that the training was also conducted at the

14    school or - before, in your testimony during the examination-in-chief, you

15    referred -- you wanted to have training in the mountains - was the

16    training somewhere else?

17       A.   When it comes to training, within the training plan we had quite a

18    few things planned, in fact; but as I've mentioned before, it was not real

19    and proper training for the simple reason that we had no conditions for

20    that.  For example, shooting exercises could be carried out safely at the

21    shooting range at Bare in Kakanj and that was the only place.  But since

22    there are Croat villages in the vicinity, we decided we wouldn't do it in

23    order to avoid it being misunderstood and in order to avoid this shooting,

24    disturbing the citizens of Kakanj and the surrounding villages.  And that

25    was one reason.

Page 18729

 1            The other reason was that we did not have enough ammunition

 2    because we had to save it for combat activity.  The training I mentioned

 3    in the mountains referred to the troops being taken out of villages and to

 4    spend as little time as possible in the suburban area or in the hotel.

 5    And so with that aim in mind, they were taken to Zagradje in order to have

 6    them spend as little time as possible in an area where there were roads

 7    and villages, et cetera, because the population of Zagradje is 100 per

 8    cent Bosniak.

 9       Q.   And did all training of the 3rd Battalion -- or was all training

10    of the 3rd Battalion conducted in Zagradje or was it also conducted at

11    other locations or was Zagradje the main training location?

12       A.   Training was also taking place at a school in Doboj once we were

13    there.  So some of it took place in classrooms, certain lectures, and then

14    at the gym, and some of it also by going out into the mountains above the

15    school.  And the second part that took place at Zagradje, the troops were

16    taken out there and we also had some training within limitations.  I mean,

17    we had to consider the restrictions imposed by the area around the village

18    of Zagradje.  So we called it training, but it was simply moving troops

19    out of a suburban area.

20       Q.   P564 states and I quote under number nine, "The deputy battalion

21    commander shall be the commander of the camp site."  I'm referring to

22    Zagradje on the 22nd of May, 1993.  Were you, in fact, giving the training

23    or was somebody else giving the training, performing the training?

24       A.   Training was done on the basis of available resources from the

25    battalion.  For example, within the JNA, I was trained as a cellular [as

Page 18730

 1    interpreted] to work with radars.  There was no sea; there were no radars

 2    at Zagradje.  So I used the services of my colleagues and members of the

 3    battalion, fighters, who used to be trained and work with this sort of

 4    equipment and weaponry within the JNA so that they could show the basic

 5    things:  How do you take a gun apart, how do you put it together again,

 6    how do you clean it, because we didn't even have any special weapons other

 7    than rifles.

 8       Q.   You were the deputy commander of the 3rd Battalion since the 22nd

 9    of February, 1993, and there was another training of the 3rd Battalion

10    members which was concluded on the 8th of March, 1993.  Do you know

11    anything about this training?

12       A.   I referred to that training course; it took place in the primary

13    school building in Doboj.  It took place in the classrooms, and the troops

14    were taken out into the field, into the mountains, to train there.  So

15    part of the training took place while I was there, and another part took

16    place while I was with the troops in Bijelo Bucje.

17       Q.   And did the troops, after being in Doboj, were taken out in the

18    mountains, were they taken to Zagradje, if you can please confirm or were

19    they taken to another location?

20       A.   In Doboj, that's January, February, and March, and in March, we

21    had the events surrounding the hotel, and then in May, there were -- there

22    was Zagradje, that's where I went in May.

23            MR. NEUNER:  With the assistance of the usher, can please P533

24    again be distributed.  I -- the Prosecution had given that already to the

25    witness at the very beginning.  This is the report, again for the record,

Page 18731

 1    on the 3rd Muslim Mountain Brigade Battalion work and implementation of

 2    tasks, and I'm interested in page number 2 of the B/C/S version and page

 3    number 3 of the English version.  And there is a headline "The level of

 4    training and readiness."

 5       Q.   And can you please read out the first sentence followed by that

 6    headline?

 7       A.   I can't see the subtitles in the original document, so I have to

 8    find them.

 9       Q.   Actually, it is page 2 of the B/C/S document but it says page 1

10    here on top of it.  It's ERN 0181, the number on top on the upper

11    right-hand side 0181-1268.

12       A.   That's page 1 here where it mentions the level of training and

13    readiness.  It's on page 1, not on page 2.  I've found it now.

14       Q.   Page 1.  With the cover sheet, it would be page 2.  I apologise.

15            Under the heading -- or under the last heading, can you just

16    please read out the first sentence?

17       A.    "As regards the level of training and readiness of unit members

18    on the 8th of March, 1993, they completed training with Iranian

19    instructors."

20       Q.   Thank you very much.  Can you please explain what this means,

21    "training with Iranian instructors"?

22       A.   While I was staying in the school in Doboj, and while training was

23    being provided at that time, there were no foreigners who participated in

24    the training.  We only had staff members of our own from our battalion.

25    As far as the reference to the Iranian instructors is concerned, when I

Page 18732

 1    returned from Bijelo Bucje, I heard that a group of two, three, or four

 2    men, I don't know the exact number, a group of such men attended certain

 3    lectures in some of the classrooms.  They'd either come from Visoko or

 4    Sarajevo.  As to whether one could call them instructors if all they did

 5    was to attend the training in the building, well, I don't know, but I

 6    think they were there for just one day.  They were just passing through

 7    Kakanj.  They expressed the wish to visit that building.  They were in

 8    civilian clothing.  I don't know what sort of a mission they were involved

 9    in.

10            I'm now telling you about the information that I received in the

11    battalion when I returned there from Bijelo Bucje.

12       Q.   Who gave you -- who provided you with that information?

13       A.   I received this information when I spoke to the men in the

14    battalion, men who had been to the school in Doboj.  At that time, there

15    was just this secondary form of activity that we did not pay much

16    attention to.

17       Q.   My last question relates to the 20th of June, 1993, and I'm

18    summarising here from Prosecution Exhibit P498 in the English version,

19    it's on page 5.  According to this document, and on page 5, significant

20    changes were made in the composition of the 3rd Battalion.

21            MR. NEUNER:  It's not on this -- it's another document.  I'm just

22    summarising to speed up.

23       Q.   And these significant changes related to the composition of the

24    officers in the 3rd Battalion and the following officers were concerned:

25    Your superior, Nihad Catic; you, as the deputy commander of the 3rd

Page 18733

 1    Battalion; the assistant commander for intelligence of security Fuad

 2    Kulovic; the 1st Company commander, Fuad Kadic; the 2nd Company commander,

 3    Refik Husika; and the Seval Omerspahic.  All these persons terminated

 4    their officer positions, according to the document, and my only question

 5    is:  Why did after the 20th of June, 1993, all these men in a row, so to

 6    speak, terminate their services as officers in the 3rd Battalion command

 7    of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade?

 8       A.   I'd like to have a look at the document because the interpreter

 9    didn't manage to catch all the names.

10            MR. NEUNER:  Certainly.  May I ask the registrar, it's P498.

11            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'd like to see the date so that I

12    can know where I was at the time.

13            MR. NEUNER:

14       Q.   Certainly.  You will be provided with the document in a moment.  I

15    don't know in the B/C/S version of this document what page it is.  In the

16    English version, it is page 5 and it's basically a list of officers within

17    the 3rd Battalion of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade.  It starts with the

18    command of the brigade, with the 1st and the 2nd and the 3rd Battalion.

19    And I would ask you kindly to look only at the page referring to the 3rd

20    Battalion.  It simply states -- it provides dates --

21       A.   Just a minute, please.  I need to hear about the heading of the

22    document so that I can see the date.  This is just part of the document.

23    I can only see tables here.  I'd need to see the first page of the

24    document or perhaps you could inform me of the relevant date.

25            I think that you said that it was the 20th of June, 1993; is that

Page 18734

 1    correct?  Is that the date?

 2       Q.   Not the date of the document itself, but the date on which the

 3    mentioned six persons in the 3rd Battalion command ceased their functions

 4    as officers, according to this document.

 5       A.   So on the 20th of June, I was wounded on the 8th of June.  On the

 6    8th of June, I was treated for a few days, I was in the barracks.  I spent

 7    a few days in the barracks until I was sent away for medical treatment.

 8            On the 20th of June, 1993, I was no longer in the barracks.  I was

 9    being treated because of the wounds I had sustained.  So as far as that

10    event is concerned -- you said that certain individuals were replaced, I

11    don't know how many, but as far as that is concerned, I'm not familiar

12    with the reasons for their replacement.

13            MR. NEUNER:  For the benefit of the Trial Chamber, can we please

14    put the page on the ELMO so that it is being displayed to everybody in the

15    courtroom.

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence counsel.

17            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

18    would just like to clarify something.  My learned colleague put a question

19    to the witness when he referred to the document and said that certain

20    officers were replaced.  This document doesn't refer to any replacements;

21    it just refers to certain changes.  So this document, this question might

22    confuse the witness.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

24            Defence counsel quite rightly points out that you told the witness

25    that certain individuals were replaced or dismissed, whereas one might

Page 18735

 1    simply have the impression that there were certain changes that were

 2    introduced, that there was an exchange of posts.  So why does the

 3    Prosecution claim that individuals were dismissed?  Mr. Neuner.

 4            MR. NEUNER:  First of all, I wanted to clarify in relation to this

 5    document that in the third column of this document, the times of services

 6    or the period of services are mentioned, and there are a couple of

 7    officers -- if I may ask the usher to put the document a little bit down,

 8    yeah, thank you.

 9            There are a couple of officers who cease their service on the 20th

10    of June, 1993.  For example are the commander that's the first line, Nihad

11    Catic, and there are a couple of dates, and I can read them out again if

12    this helps for clarification.  Again, I just wanted to speed things up.

13    In relation to the second document, it becomes clear -- or the replacement

14    becomes clear.

15            If I may ask the usher to show document -- or to provide document

16    P544.  This is a document which is relating to this document, to the

17    reasons why these people -- which may be relating to this incident, the

18    document dating from 25 June 1993.  It was not intended to show this

19    document, but since the Prosecution was asked for clarification, this is a

20    document dating 25 June 1993 from General Hadzihasanovic to the deputy

21    commander of the SVK and it states, if I may quote, beginning of quote,

22    "Pursuant to order of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade command" --

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, just a minute.  We have two

24    members of the Defence counsel on their feet.  Let's hear the first

25    lawyer.

Page 18736












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Page 18737

 1            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  My

 2    learned colleague referred to the date, the 20th of June.  This document

 3    is not dated 20th of June, and these are members of the 3rd Battalion as

 4    far as I know.  I don't know why this document is being referred to.  I

 5    think this is very confusing for the witness.  If he can answer the

 6    question that concerns the first document, I think that will be quite

 7    sufficient.

 8            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] With regard to the additional

 9    questions put by my learned colleague, I'd just like to say that the

10    witness has already answered the Prosecution's questions on a number of

11    occasions.  He was wounded on the 8th of June, he went away for medical

12    treatment, and he can't comment on events that took place afterwards,

13    regardless of the document that is in question.  To continue along this

14    line seems to amount to making certain -- or presenting certain arguments,

15    but such questions can't be put to the witness because they just confuse

16    the witness.  The witness has already said that he cannot testify about

17    anything that happened after he was wounded.

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

19            The Prosecution has heard Defence counsels' objections.  Defence

20    counsel claims that the witness wasn't there on the 20th of June, as he

21    had been wounded.  And therefore, as he has already said, there is nothing

22    he can say about the 20th of June, about what happened on the 20th of

23    June.  So what's the purpose of insisting on an event that resulted in the

24    dismissal of certain members of the 7th Brigade on the 20th of June?

25    However, one could ask him whether he found out that friends of his were

Page 18738

 1    put in a position which they had to leave their post.  This is the type of

 2    question that you could put to the witness.

 3            MR. NEUNER:

 4       Q.   Mr. Alajbegovic, may I ask you - and that's my only question -

 5    have you heard whether your former colleagues or why your former

 6    colleagues were relieved of their duties on the 20th of June?  And if I

 7    speak about relieving of duties, I'm just referring to the officer's

 8    position.

 9       A.   As far as I can remember, I know that Nihad Catic was transferred

10    to a certain position in the brigade, I think, and he was assigned a

11    different post and he was replaced by Mustafa Hadzihafizbegovic, who was

12    the new battalion commander for the other individuals, and I can't

13    remember anything.  I know that the commander who was reassigned posts

14    within the brigade were redistributed.  So I really can't say anything

15    about these other matters.

16       Q.   Can you just please clarify.  To which position was Mr. Nihad

17    Catic transferred?

18       A.   I wouldn't know.  He was the battalion commander.  The command had

19    its headquarters in Kakanj, and he was then reassigned to some position in

20    the brigade.  And as I no longer had contact with Zenica, since I was in

21    Kakanj receiving medical treatment, I don't know what position he was

22    reassigned to.

23            MR. NEUNER:  Thank you for answering all my questions, and the

24    Prosecution rests.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

Page 18739

 1            We have another 10 minutes before we have our break.  Any

 2    additional questions?

 3            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I

 4    just have a few questions that arise from the questions put to the witness

 5    by my learned colleague.

 6                          Re-examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

 7       Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Alajbegovic, my learned colleague asked you a

 8    question about vehicles and registrations that were mentioned at a

 9    meeting.  Were these vehicles captured from the HVO?

10       A.   As I have already said, I wasn't in the field when these vehicles

11    were taken.  But given certain traces on the vehicles, given the

12    camouflage paint on the vehicles, you could see that the army -- an army

13    had used them.  And in this case, they had been captured from the HVO.

14       Q.   Were vehicles used by the army registered through a competent

15    organ?

16       A.   The municipal secretariat of national defence was involved in

17    these matters because vehicles had to be registered if the -- if that

18    hasn't been the case, it wouldn't have been possible to register them.

19            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's 5.25.  We will

21    now have a break.  And after the break, the Judges will have some

22    questions for the witness.  We will resume at about 10 to 6.00.

23                          --- Recess taken at 5.25 p.m.

24                          --- On resuming at 5.57 p.m.

25            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now resume, and I have a

Page 18740

 1    few questions that I would like to put to the witness.

 2                          Questioned by the Court:

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you have a look at

 4    document P558 again.  On page 2 in the English version, and in the B/C/S

 5    version, it's also on page 2.  Have a look at what Nihad Catic had to say

 6    on that page.  It follows what was said by Dzemal Hadzic and it's -- and

 7    after Nihad Catic there's something said by Mahmut Karalic.  Could you

 8    read out what Nihad Catic said.

 9       A.   "The lack of organisation collecting booty stemmed from our lack

10    of experience.  The Arabs did not permit access to one ammunition and

11    explosive depot.  The corps military police," it probably says, "removed

12    uniforms from one lorry.  Four submachine-guns and a car trailer from

13    Kakanj were not reported."

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15            Catic's reference to Arabs, who apparently did not permit access

16    to an ammunition and explosive depots, now who are these Arabs he's

17    referring to there, in your opinion?  How do you interpret what Catic

18    says, as far as you can remember what took place?

19       A.   I can't remember what he said at the time, nor can I remember what

20    others said at the time.  This took place a long time ago.  But what I've

21    just read out means the following for me.  This information was presented

22    by Nihad Catic; he obtained it somewhere in the field.  No location -- no

23    geographic location is referred to here.  I don't know what location is in

24    question because I wasn't in the field when these operations were being

25    conducted; I was in the barracks in Kakanj.

Page 18741

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Could you have a

 2    look at the last page of the document and the list of individuals to whom

 3    this document was addressed.  Who is the first addressee?

 4       A.   It says that it is the brigade Emir [Realtime transcript read in

 5    error "Amir"].  Should I read through the other addressees in the list?

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You told us that you were a

 7    member of the JNA, a member of the navy, you have certain military

 8    knowledge.  So when a list of addressees is compiled, when you have the

 9    most high-ranking person who appears under number 1, and then the other

10    individuals appears in order of importance.  How would you explain that

11    the Emir of the brigade is listed before the brigade commander?  Is there

12    anything you could tell us?  Is there any explanation you could provide in

13    the light of the document that you have before you?  And I could put the

14    same question to you with regard to another document that concerned a list

15    of officers who were replaced.  And as far as I can remember, in the same

16    document, the Emir was the first addressee in that document.  Do you have

17    a military explanation for this?

18       A.   The way I see it on the basis of the reference to the Amir of the

19    brigade and on the basis of what I've found out in the course of my stay

20    at the 7th Brigade, Emir was an honourary position.  It was Mr. Karalic

21    and there was a certain respect on the part of the fighters for

22    Mr. Karalic.  And the way I saw it, it was an honourary position or title

23    for him.  And since he was the first in the line of command, as we saw on

24    the basis of that order dated the 25th of December, the way I see it is a

25    kind of an honourary position in order to avoid -- since this person had

Page 18742

 1    certain merits for the brigade and we didn't want to keep him without a

 2    title.

 3            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are telling us it's an

 4    honourary post.  If we look at the conclusion of this document, at the end

 5    of this meeting, decisions were made by Mr. Karalic, who -- and this

 6    basically runs counter to what the other members have mentioned with

 7    regard to possible problems with the guerillas, the Turks, and the Arabs,

 8    he, himself, indicated that the guerilla should receive some sort of

 9    recompense.  And he even suggested that five -- that certain soldiers from

10    your own battalion should get this sort of compensation, this sort of

11    price.  So how does it go together with the fact that this was an

12    honourary title?  Could you shed some more light on this.  What does

13    actually transpire from the reading of this document?  But you will see

14    that in the end, he suggests that one soldier should be awarded the Golden

15    Lily.  As far as you know, who was allowed to grant the Golden Lily?  The

16    commander of the brigade?  The commander of the 3rd Corps?  Or was it up

17    to the president, Izetbegovic?

18       A.   In this case when I was referring to Mr. Karalic, his presence was

19    aimed at making certain suggestions with regard to certain activities,

20    when it came to both the war booty and the attitude to our soldiers, and

21    it was about certain activities in order to boost the soldiers' morale in

22    order to bring it up to the satisfactory level in order to make sure that

23    they would be in a position to carry out their combat tasks.  That's the

24    way I read this.

25            In this respect, we've got this proposal -- yes, there is a

Page 18743

 1    proposal for one soldier to be awarded the Golden Lily, so this proposal

 2    should be submitted.  As far as I know, these awards were normally

 3    officially awarded at a higher level.  The proposals came from the unit

 4    level with an explanatory note, and then the actual decision was made at

 5    the high level of command.  I wouldn't be able to tell you at exactly what

 6    level, but it was certainly not done at the brigade level, perhaps even

 7    above the level of the corps.  It was the highest war award, so it was

 8    probably the staff of the army.  And as I was saying, the lower units

 9    could simply send in their proposals and explanatory notes.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.  Thank you.  Could

11    you now take a look at P533, which is the report by Mr. Catic.  And I

12    would like to ask you to take a look at page 2, somewhere in the middle of

13    page 2 in your language the sentence starts by "takodje vedan od

14    problema," one of the basic problems.  Could you read out this paragraph?

15       A.   I do apologise.  What is the number of the page, 1 or 2?

16            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Page 2 in your document.  Thank

17    you.  And it's in the middle of the page, more or less.  And the paragraph

18    starts by "takodje vedan od problema" --

19       A.   Thank you very much.  Yes, I've found it.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Also, could you read out this

21    paragraph, please?

22       A.   "Also one of the problems we encountered in our work so far was

23    also represented by the fact that quite a few candidates that were at the

24    MOS unit exited that formation when the battalion was formed, since they

25    understood the nature of this unit.  One of the reasons for the appearance

Page 18744

 1    of this problem is insufficient level of information and misinformation as

 2    well as a calculating attitude on the part of these candidates.  A

 3    considerable number of this personnel joined the MOS unit simply in order

 4    to avoid mobilisation and any other units and the departure for the

 5    front."

 6            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.  This document

 7    refers to MOS as far as you know, what is this unit that is being referred

 8    to in this document?  Because if you read through this paragraph, it seems

 9    to indicate that members that were members of MOS had left it in order to

10    boost the numbers of your battalion and that those people, apparently,

11    caused certain problems.  What can you tell us about MOS?

12       A.   The term "MOS" is a term which was used by the people, by the

13    population.  I believe that it is due to the following:  There was a Serb

14    army which perpetrated the aggression; afterwards, the HVO, the Croat

15    Defence Council, and the HOS were set up; and at the same time, or rather

16    before, there was the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  MOS

17    was a term which was -- colloquial term used by the people, and the actual

18    real term is the term that was referred to in another document, which

19    refers to the Independent Trsce Platoon with a list of members with regard

20    to mobilisation, and that was approved by the Chief of Staff, the chief of

21    municipal defence staff at Kakanj, which, as such, was an integral part of

22    the armed forces of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

23            So Nihad Talic in that period of time when that unit was being set

24    up and all these documents were being created was not present here, and

25    apparently he must have used this colloquial term which is used by the

Page 18745

 1    people in our area at the time.  So this reference that you are asking me

 2    about, as to whether there had been any problems or not, initially certain

 3    members failed to understand that war was a serious business and what it

 4    meant to belong to a serious military unit.  So that when units started --

 5    when units started to take part in combat activity, we had some people who

 6    were killed and wounded.  And I believe, I suppose that it was for this

 7    reason that some of those who initially expressed the wish to join the

 8    7th -- or rather to join the battalion -- well, that must have been the

 9    reason why they've given up the idea, why they didn't want to join the

10    battalion and be mobilised.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.  If you allow me,

12    I'd like to come back to the matter of this Motel Sretno in May 1993.

13    Obviously it's a long time ago, but you must know because the Defence must

14    have told you that in the indictment it is alleged that people were

15    detained at the Sretno Motel and that some of them were mistreated.  Now,

16    so as not to spring any surprises on you, let me just tell you that we've

17    already had testimonies from witnesses who had told us what had happened,

18    according to them, at Motel Sretno.

19            Now, were you, yourself, present in Kakanj in the month of May,

20    and more specifically, were you at Motel Sretno?  Where were you on the

21    18th of May?

22       A.   On the 18th of May in the afternoon, I was in Kakanj but not at

23    Motel Sretno.  So in the early evening, I can't really remember what time

24    when I got to the barracks, it was at that stage that I heard from

25    fighters what had happened, basically that the incident with the detention

Page 18746

 1    and the fact that the military police were taken prisoner by the HVO, this

 2    incident had already happened and the fact that certain members of the HVO

 3    were also taken prisoner but the -- by the remaining military policemen.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in this story that you were

 5    told, who were the people who had brought the HVO members to the motel?

 6    Were they your own soldiers or some other soldiers?  Because in the

 7    indictment, it is indicated that it was the military staff belonging to

 8    your company.  So I'm trying to see clear here, and I'm asking you whether

 9    those were your own troops who detained those people or was it somebody

10    else because in paragraph 42(F) of the indictment, it is stated that it

11    was the 3rd Company of the 7th Brigade.

12            Now, what can you tell us in order to clarify things in relation

13    to this matter?

14       A.   Whilst all this was going on, I was not, myself, at the Motel

15    Sretno.  Upon my arrival, I was told that with regard to these people

16    being brought in - I was informed about this by the members of the

17    battalion - I was told that members of the HVO were brought in by the

18    brigade military police, the remaining ones who managed to return after

19    the incident at the Rampa.  So at that stage, I wasn't told that anyone

20    from our own battalion participated in this action with them.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Who was the highest-ranking

22    officer at the Motel Sretno barracks?

23       A.   As far as I can remember, it was the battalion commander.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And who was the battalion

25    commander?

Page 18747

 1       A.   Nihad Catic.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And did you, yourself, have an

 3    office at Motel Sretno or a place where you would spend time in order to

 4    have a rest or to carry out your administrative duties within the unit?

 5    Did you have an office of your own?

 6       A.   Yes, it was a smallish office.

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And did you stay in that

 8    office -- I mean, for how long and when exactly were you at that office?

 9       A.   I didn't have any fixed working hours.  According to needs, unless

10    I was out in the field or on leave or carrying out other duties which

11    required certain contacts and communications and meeting people in town,

12    well, unless I was doing all these other things, I would come to the

13    office and do what I had to do there.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.  Because one of the

15    witnesses told us that on the 19th of May, that is to say the day after

16    the 18th of May, he was still there; and we do know that on the 19th of

17    May, there was a meeting between the BiH and the HVO about this matter.

18    Were you informed of that meeting?

19       A.   I was not informed about that.

20            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So you did not know that there

21    was a meeting on the 19th of May between the HVO and BiH?

22       A.   When you asked me the question, Your Honour, I said I did not know

23    about anyone else being detained at the hotel, but I did hear about the

24    meeting.  I did hear about certain talks or negotiations being underway

25    and UNPROFOR was involved, but I myself was not personally involved and I

Page 18748

 1    don't really know where exactly the meeting was taking place.

 2            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And did you talk about this

 3    matter with Catic, about what could have happened, at least on the 18th of

 4    May, did you discuss this with him; and as far as you know, did he submit

 5    a report to the brigade commander?

 6       A.   Both of us were involved and were making efforts in terms of

 7    initiating these talks and obtaining a commitment from the commander of

 8    the 309th Brigade in terms of striving for an exchange.  And I don't have

 9    information as to whether he had ever informed any higher levels of

10    command.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And this exchange, when did it

12    take place, as far as you know?

13       A.   As far as I can remember, late at night these military police

14    members were released late at night.  One was brought in by UNPROFOR, and

15    on the day after the HVO members were released.  I don't know at what

16    time.  I think it must have been in the morning.  I can't remember what

17    time.

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And as far as you know, those

19    HVO members who had been detained, they complained to you or to other

20    battalion officers about the fact that some of them had been beaten?

21       A.   As far as I know, nobody complained of any mistreatment in the

22    course of their stay at the hotel, so I'm not aware of any complaints

23    having been made about their stay there.

24            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And did you know that on the

25    20th of May, that is to say two days later, a number of people who had

Page 18749

 1    been at Motel Sretno went to the Kakanj medical centre in order to be

 2    checked due to their state of health because of the fact that they had

 3    been beaten?  Did you know about that?

 4       A.   Well, after this exchange we concentrated on carrying out further

 5    orders and duties in conjunction with our own members, so we were not in

 6    touch with the medical centre and we did not get any information or any

 7    reports from them.

 8            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.  So you had no

 9    knowledge whatsoever about the medical follow-up to this situation, due to

10    the fact that a number of people had been subjected to medical check with

11    regard to their wounds.  You did not know about it and -- would you like

12    to reply?

13       A.   No, I did not know anything about that.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then.  My last question:

15    One witness, who himself was detained at that moment, came and testified

16    and he indicated that the people who had detained him were the MOS

17    people.  And he said that they were wearing army fatigue uniforms and that

18    their faces were smeared in black and so on and so forth.  Does it sound

19    credible to you that someone would say that they were MOS members, the

20    people who arrested them, and not your military police?  How -- could you

21    explain that statement?

22       A.   I did mention that the term "MOS" was widely used in the area; it

23    was a colloquial term.  As to what the witness in question had in mind

24    when he said "MOS," I can't really say that.  But what I do know is

25    that -- well, I don't know whether this same person who had spent time at

Page 18750












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Page 18751

 1    the motel, but if he was indeed at the motel, he must have been arrested

 2    by the police.  As to whether they were wearing army fatigues at that time

 3    or not, since I wasn't present, I can't really make any statements about

 4    it.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Military police, have you ever

 6    seen any of them in person, military police officers from the brigade?

 7    Has it ever happened in the course of your duty there to come across

 8    anyone who was a member of the military police of the 7th Brigade?

 9       A.   I most often came across them at the Zenica barracks because they

10    were in charge of security at gates and checkpoints there, so that was

11    where I saw them most often.

12            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Because the witness -- it was on

13    page 1.570 and 71, and I'm saying this for the sake of the lawyers.  The

14    witness indicated that those MOS agents were wearing army fatigues and

15    bandannas on their heads and green ribbons on their arms, armbands, and

16    that their faces were smeared in black.  Does this correspond to the

17    description of the military police?

18       A.   A member of any unit can wear an armband or a ribbon or a bandanna

19    and military police normally, as far as I can remember, even back then,

20    they normally wear white belts.  And I can't remember whether they had any

21    other insignia or not, but they would be recognisable by the fact that

22    they were wearing white belts.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And about you yourself, on the

24    night between the 18th and 19th of May, where did you spend the night, at

25    home?

Page 18752

 1       A.   Until late at night, I can't remember when exactly, but until late

 2    I was involved in this communication process with the command of the 309th

 3    Brigade, and then I went home to spend the night.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] All right then.  Thank you very

 5    much.

 6            Now, I'm going to give the floor to the Prosecution and then to

 7    the others as well.  We still have half an hour.

 8                          Further cross-examination by Mr. Neuner:

 9       Q.   Good afternoon again.  My first question again relates to

10    Mr. Karalic which was mentioned in the questions by the Presiding Judge.

11    You stated that he was in the area of the -- or in the 7th Muslim Mountain

12    Brigade.  Where was Mr. Karalic based in 1993?

13       A.   I saw that he was an Emir in the documents, and I told you what my

14    understanding of the title Emir was.  But as far as I was aware,

15    Mr. Karalic was in Zenica.

16       Q.   Was he based in the Bilmiste barracks in Zenica or was he based

17    somewhere else?

18       A.   As deputy commander, I didn't have any contact with Mr. Karalic; I

19    had contact with superior command.  So I really couldn't tell you

20    precisely where his office was.

21       Q.   If I can take you again to the meeting minutes from the meeting on

22    the 13th of May, 1993.  For the record, it's P558.  Do you recall where

23    that meeting took place?

24       A.   Are you referring to the meeting at which war booty was the

25    subject of discussion?

Page 18753

 1       Q.   Yes, I do.  The meeting you attended.

 2       A.   It was held in the headquarters of the brigade command.

 3       Q.   So in Bilmiste, in Zenica?

 4       A.   In Bilmiste, in Zenica.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Defence counsel.

 6            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  But

 7    this is the second or third time that confusing questions have been put.

 8    The brigade command was in Bilmiste; that is not in dispute.  My learned

 9    friend asked whether it was located in Bilmiste or somewhere in Zenica.

10            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.  The Prosecution -- given

11    that the witness attended the meeting, he can tell us whether it was in

12    Zenica or Bilmiste.

13            Please go ahead.

14            MR. NEUNER:  The Prosecution just intended to clarify.  I want to

15    move on to the next question.

16       Q.   It says here under item 1 on the first page of the meeting

17    minutes, Mr. Karalic, and I quote, "Explained the rules of distributing

18    war booty according to Islam."

19            That's the second sentence of the meeting minutes.  Being at the

20    meeting yourself, can you explain what is meant by "the rules of

21    distributing war booty according to Islam"?

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

23            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  That

24    doesn't fall within the scope of the questions that you put to the

25    witness.

Page 18754

 1            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but I can allow this

 2    question to be put to the witness because I wanted to ask this question

 3    but I forgot to do so.  It would be interesting to know whether there were

 4    rules or not because they are military rules.

 5            Were you aware of that fact that there's a document that refers to

 6    Islamic rules as well?  Is there an explanation you could provide or are

 7    you unable to answer this question?

 8            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the Islamic rules on

 9    the distribution of booty -- well, as far as these rules are concerned, I

10    haven't heard of them, and if there were any such rules, they should have

11    existed in written form.  I never saw such rules as to whether --

12    mentioned these rules or I really don't know.  But I know that at the

13    time, as deputy commander, according to my understanding of what I should

14    do with whatever arrived in the barracks -- according to my understanding,

15    it was necessary to register everything, ensure that such goods were not

16    stolen, and I had to inform my superior command of all the relevant

17    details, and that is what I did.

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Please continue.

19            MR. NEUNER:

20       Q.   The Presiding Judge asked you also for proposals made at the end

21    by Mr. Karalic, proposals for awards.  And if I read at the very last page

22    of this document, I find above "Conclusion" the last sentence that

23    "Mr. Karalic proposed that 25 soldiers from the 2nd Battalion should be

24    awarded as well as 5 soldiers from the 3rd Battalion."

25            This is certainly a detail, but do you recall why five soldiers

Page 18755

 1    from your battalion, from the 3rd Battalion, were proposed for awards?

 2       A.   I can't remember who these soldiers were, and I really can't

 3    remember whether they were given rewards.  I don't know the criteria used

 4    by Mr. Karalic to select these five men.  I don't know who participated in

 5    the operation.  I don't know what the role of these five men was, but on

 6    the basis of the written documents that concern what Mr. Karalic said,

 7    these proposals were made to the brigade command.  He suggested that

 8    certain steps be taken to raise the level of morale of the troops in --

 9    with regard to carrying out combat tasks.  So this, in fact, concerned

10    ensuring that the level of morale was at an adequate level.

11       Q.   If you look again at the last page and especially at the

12    distribution list, you find that below the brigade Emir, the second person

13    mentioned, is the brigade commander, the second person to whom these

14    minutes go.  To your understanding on the 13th of May, 1993, when this

15    meeting took place, who was the brigade commander of the 7th Muslim

16    Mountain Brigade?

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes.

18            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  My

19    objection is identical to my previous one:  It doesn't fall within the

20    scope of questions that you put to the witness.

21            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In fact, I didn't put questions

22    of this kind to the witness, but when I asked the witness why Emir was the

23    first addressee and then the brigade commander was the second addressee, I

24    asked the witness to explain this and the witness said that the title was

25    an honourary one.  Defence counsel believes that he has provided a full

Page 18756

 1    answer to this question, so please proceed.

 2            MR. NEUNER:

 3       Q.   The Presiding Judge also mentioned or asked you for MOS and you

 4    elaborated a little bit about the background of MOS.  If I can just ask

 5    you for clarification.  Was there a group of MOS in Kakanj, and if so,

 6    please from what date to what date did it exist?

 7       A.   So what do you mean when you mean "MOS"?  What is your

 8    understanding of this term?  In your opinion, who do you consider to be a

 9    member of MOS?  If you can answer that question, I will be able to answer

10    your question.

11       Q.   I'm prepared to rephrase the question.  I'm certainly not prepared

12    to answer questions.  The intention was to --

13       A.   I apologise if I have failed to respect the procedure.

14            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No, you haven't made any

15    mistakes, rest assured.

16            Mr. Neuner, please proceed.

17            MR. NEUNER:

18       Q.   My intention was just to clarify.  The Presiding Judge mentioned

19    that certain witnesses or one witness had referred to a person who was

20    arresting him or a group who was arresting him as MOS, and you elaborated

21    in your answer.  You mentioned the MOS, what this concept meant for you.

22    And the only question I have is:  In your understanding, is MOS a unit

23    which has a commander, and if so, was such a unit existing in Kakanj in

24    1992 or 1993?

25       A.   As far as I know, there were no MOS units, no such units existed.

Page 18757

 1    A unit exists if it has its own command, if it performs the tasks for

 2    which it was established.  And there was no unit called MOS in Kakanj in

 3    1992, 1993, or later on, as far as I know.

 4       Q.   You mentioned that you heard about negotiations on the 19th of

 5    May, 1993, in response to a question by the Presiding Judge.  Can you tell

 6    us:  What did you hear about the negotiations taking place on the 19th of

 7    May?

 8       A.   Nothing in particular, as far as I can remember.  Reference was

 9    made to negotiations on the 19th; I think UNPROFOR, someone organised it.

10    They spoke about when they were organised, who attended them.  I don't

11    know who attended them; I couldn't say because I wasn't there.  I wasn't

12    at the negotiations on the 19th.

13       Q.   You say UNPROFOR organised it.  Are you referring to the Canadian

14    Battalion or to a French Battalion of UNPROFOR?

15       A.   As far as I can remember, at that time, the French Battalion was

16    staying on the grounds of the Kakanj power plant.

17       Q.   If I ask you to show Their Honours where the power plant was in

18    Catici, the place you just mentioned, or the Kakanj -- you just mentioned

19    the Kakanj power plant, excuse me.  Would you be in a position to encircle

20    or to show where the Kakanj power plant is on the map the Defence has

21    produced?

22       A.   I need the map.

23       Q.   Please, with a pointer, show where the power plant was.

24       A.   Here we have the abbreviation that's used in Kakanj, too, it's on

25    the map.  It says "TE," and then you have the facility that is marked

Page 18758

 1    here, there is the village of Kujavce on one side and Turbici on the

 2    other.  And this where the Kakanj thermoelectric power plant is next to

 3    the River Bosna and this road here.  It's right here.

 4       Q.   Can you please, with a marker, encircle it.

 5            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, what is the purpose of the

 6    question, Defence counsel?

 7            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] It's a technical objection,

 8    Mr. President.  The witness already marked the map and signed it.  When I

 9    asked the witness questions, they had to do with other matters, not with

10    the matters that my learned colleague is referring to now.  I have no

11    objection to my colleague showing the witness another map which the

12    witness could then mark.

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Prosecution, you don't have

14    a map on you, do you?

15            MR. NEUNER:  We have a map.

16            With the assistance of the usher --

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  Then the Prosecution

18    will provide a map if it's the right one.

19            MR. NEUNER:

20       Q.   Maybe it's not visible on this map, but Catici is visible.

21       A.   You can't see the thermoelectric power plant on this map; it's

22    upstream the Bosna River, but you can't see it here.

23            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well, sir, we don't have a

24    map.

25            Yes, Defence counsel, perhaps they could assist.

Page 18759

 1            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have a map that could be

 2    used.

 3            MR. NEUNER:  Thank you very much.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  So the Defence is

 5    now assisting the Prosecution by providing them with a map.

 6            MR. NEUNER:

 7       Q.   Can you please, again with a pointer, show where the power plant

 8    is?

 9       A.   I think that this is the same map, but the scale and format is

10    different.  We could compare them, if necessary.  There's the Donja

11    Banjevac village here, and then further down there's the thermoelectric

12    power plant in Kakanj.

13            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  It's not the right

14    map, but there is a larger map.

15            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] To save time, I will withdraw my

16    objection.  The witness could mark the location of the plant on our map.

17            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Let's use the Defence's original

18    map then.  The Trial Chamber would like to thank the Defence for

19    cooperating in order to save time.

20            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You would like me to mark the

21    thermoelectric power plant in Kakanj?

22            MR. NEUNER:

23       Q.   If you could please make a 2 next to it.

24       A.   [Marks]

25       Q.   Thank you very much.

Page 18760

 1            How far away, if you look at the map, is this power plant from

 2    Catici, just roughly?

 3       A.   Catici is here, and now we have two possibilities.  You can talk

 4    of the distance as the crow flies, and then this route here, you can take

 5    the road.  Which distance are you interested in?

 6       Q.   As the crow flies, maybe.

 7       A.   It's easier for me if I try to remember this.  The power plant is

 8    quite a large compound, and Catici is a large village and it has about 300

 9    households.  So from the periphery of the power plant to the village of

10    Catici, I would say it's several hundred metres, a couple hundred metres.

11    I used to work in the power plant, so I do remember more or less what the

12    distance was.

13       Q.   And you heard on the 19th of May, 1993, that the meeting had taken

14    place there, or did you hear that at a later point in time?  The meeting

15    I'm referring to is the meeting about -- or the negotiations you were

16    mentioning earlier.

17       A.   As far as I can remember, the negotiations were held in the

18    evening.  Telephones were used extensively.  UNPROFOR was involved.  And

19    if I'm not mistaken, on the following day rumour had it that these

20    negotiations had taken place.

21       Q.   I want to ask you a final question.  The Presiding Judge asked you

22    about the detainees held at Motel Sretno.  Were you aware -- because you

23    referred several times to HVOs, were you aware that also civilians were

24    among the detained persons in Motel Sretno?

25       A.   I'm not aware of there having been any civilians among the

Page 18761

 1    detainees.

 2       Q.   Have you seen any of these detainees either being brought

 3    downstairs or brought upstairs on their way to the exchange?

 4       A.   While the men were there, I never saw any of the detainees.

 5       Q.   Thank you very much.

 6            MR. NEUNER:  The Prosecution has no further questions.

 7            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8            I'll give the floor to General Hadzihasanovic's Defence.

 9            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no questions,

10    Mr. President.  Thank you.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'll now give the floor to

12    Brigadier Kubura's Defence team.

13            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, just a few questions.

14                          Further examination by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

15       Q.   Witness, you've had a look at the document P558.  These are the --

16    this is the document from the joint meeting.  If I remember what you said,

17    you said that Mr. Karalic made certain suggestions, he didn't issue any

18    orders?

19       A.   That's correct.

20       Q.   My second question with regard to this document is:  Mr. Kubura

21    was present at the meeting, as far as I can see on the basis of this

22    document?

23       A.   I don't remember Mr. Amir Kubura being present at the meeting.

24            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] We have no other questions,

25    Mr. President, but for the sake of the transcript, on page 56, page 59,

Page 18762

 1    page 66, and page 69, when an Emir and Mr. Karalic mentioned, the

 2    transcript says "Amir" instead of "Emir."  I just went to mention this for

 3    the sake of the transcript.  Thank you very much.

 4            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  We won't confuse

 5    these names.

 6            Is Defence counsel tendering these maps into evidence?  And then

 7    we will deal with the power plant.

 8            MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  We would

 9    like to tender the maps marked by the witness into evidence as well as

10    what the Prosecution used with the witness and there's the document dated

11    the 25th of December, 1992, an order and a document of the -- dated the

12    5th of December, a list of men mobilised.  These are documents we would

13    like to tender into evidence.  The witness recognised these documents and

14    testified about them today.

15            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.  We have maps and

16    documents.

17            What's the Prosecution's position?

18            MR. NEUNER:  No objection.

19            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] General Hadzihasanovic's Defence

20    team?

21            MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections.  Thank you.

22            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Registrar.

23            THE REGISTRAR: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  The

24    first map will be admitted into evidence as DK53, this is a map of the

25    Zenica sector.

Page 18763

 1            [In English] DK53 representing Zenica area.  The second map is

 2    representing the area of Kakanj; it's admitted under reference DK54.  The

 3    third document is a document entitled "Order," dated 25th of December,

 4    1992, and is admitted into evidence under the reference DK55, with an

 5    English translation DK55/E.  The last document is a document entitled

 6    "List of men that were mobilised on the 20th of October, 1992," and is

 7    dated the 5th of November, 1992 -- well, the stamp is dated the 5th of

 8    November and is admitted into evidence under the reference DK56 with an

 9    English translation DK56/E.

10            [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

11            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.  So this completes

12    your testimony.  Thank you for having come to testify here on behalf of

13    Brigadier Kubura's Defence.  I wish you to safe trip home where you are

14    currently employed in a certain company.

15            I will now ask the usher to escort you out of the courtroom.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

17                          [The witness withdrew]

18            JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have a few more seconds, but

19    if there are no issues that need to be raised, the hearing will commence

20    tomorrow at 9.00.  As you know, two witnesses are scheduled for tomorrow,

21    they are ready to testify, and I invite everyone to come back for the

22    hearing tomorrow morning at 9.00.  Thank you.

23                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,

24                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of May,

25                          2005, at 9.00 a.m.