Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18851

1 Tuesday, 17 May 2005

2 [Open session]

3 --- Upon commencing at 2.18 p.m.

4 [The accused entered court]

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Registrar, could you call the

6 case, please.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Case Number

8 IT-01-47-T, the Prosecutor versus Enver Hadzihasanovic and Amir Kubura.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you to the registrar.

10 Could we have the appearances for the Prosecution, please.

11 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. Good afternoon,

12 Your Honours, counsel, and everyone in and around the courtroom. For the

13 Prosecution, Matthias Neuner and Daryl Mundis, assisted by Andres Vatter,

14 our case manager.

15 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And I'm turning to the Defence

16 now. Could we have the appearances for the Defence.

17 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President.

18 Good afternoon, Your Honours. For the Defence of General Enver

19 Hadzihasanovic, Edina Residovic, main counsel, and Stephane Bourgon,

20 co-counsel.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And the other team.

22 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. For the Defence

23 of Mr. Kubura, Rodney Dixon, Fahrudin Ibrisimovic, and Nermin Mulalic, the

24 legal assistant.

25 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 18852

1 On this day, I would like to welcome everyone, the 17th of May,

2 215th day of the trial. I would just like to welcome everyone present

3 here, General Hadzihasanovic and General Kubura. And I would also like to

4 welcome the registrar, the legal assistants, the usher, and the entire

5 staff assisting us in our work, both in and outside the courtroom.

6 Last week we had no hearings and so we shall continue with our

7 work now by hearing of a witness which had been planned. But before we do

8 that, there are a number of points outstanding. I'm going to ask

9 General Kubura's Defence team to explain the state of affairs, that is to

10 say apparently they intend to withdraw certain witnesses and to call

11 certain witnesses on the basis of the Rule 92 bis and to tender certain

12 documents with regard to Rules -- again, with regard to the Rule, 92 bis.

13 Mr. Dixon, you have the floor.

14 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honours. If I could take this

15 opportunity as Your Honours have requested to outline what the state of

16 affairs is now for the defence for Mr. Kubura. There is a witness, as

17 Your Honours know, to be called today live. That is witness number 8 on

18 our list, and that will be the last live witness to be called by the

19 Defence for Mr. Kubura. We'll have no further witnesses after that, but

20 for two 92 bis statements which are currently being prepared. And those

21 are for witness number 5 on the list and witness number 9. I could

22 mention the names, if we were to go into private session.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could we go

24 into private session, then.

25 [Private session]

Page 18853











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Page 18857

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21 [Open session]

22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we have two other points to

24 deal with in the open session. The first one has to do with the Defence

25 documents with regard to which no decision has been taken as yet because

Page 18858

1 we were in the process of putting all this together and finding out what

2 was still missing in terms of translations, either in English or in B/C/S.

3 Finally, I'm in a position to tell you that almost all documents have been

4 translated now and it appears that we only have one document, number 400,

5 to be dealt with. And there again, on Thursday we'll be able to submit a

6 decision in writing or at the very least an oral decision. Because apart

7 from this document, almost everything else has been dealt with. That's

8 the first point.

9 And the second point, we are still pondering the Prosecution's

10 motion with regard to the re-opening of this burden of proof with

11 regard -- of the case with regard to the admission of 24 documents. In

12 the meantime we have heard over the past few days that the Prosecution

13 would reserve the right to give an oral presentation of their position

14 following the Defence's submissions, and we also gather that

15 General Hadzihasanovic's Defence team wanted to submit an additional

16 motion orally with regard to this same matter. So the best thing to do

17 would be since we shall have some time to deal with this on Thursday, it

18 would be a good idea if the Defence through Mr. Bourgon could make those

19 additional comments. And then I will be giving the floor to the other

20 Defence team for General Kubura, if necessary, and then the Prosecution,

21 and they will again make an oral presentation of their own point of view.

22 Mr. Bourgon, is my understanding of the situation correct? Is

23 this indeed correct, the fact that you want to make some additional


25 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Good

Page 18859

1 afternoon, Mr. President. Good afternoon, Your Honours. I would just

2 like to specify that these are not additional comments or anything, but

3 documents that we would like to add. They will be enclosed to our case.

4 It is a letter that we have received from the Government of the Federation

5 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and this document would show that certain

6 documents that the Prosecution is seeking to tender had already been in

7 their possession two years ago. And so apparently they had received those

8 documents in the course of 2002. Obviously we're not in a position to say

9 whether the information that we received from the government is exact.

10 All we want is to tender this letter and that's all we want to do in order

11 to be able to continue along the same lines. I have the document here

12 with me. If you wish me to do so, I could submit it to you today or maybe

13 wait until Thursday. Whichever you prefer. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Bourgon, have you shown this

15 document to the Prosecution?

16 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] This document, yes, has been faxed

17 to the Prosecution and so they will have received a copy and we discussed

18 this a bit earlier. And my learned friend suggested that it might be

19 preferable to discuss that on Thursday. We are open to any suggestions.

20 The only thing is you should tell us whether you would like to see the

21 document today or wait until Thursday.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Right then. If my understanding

23 of the situation is correct, it is a letter that you received after your

24 submissions and it came from the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

25 And it reveals, apparently, that the Prosecution has had these documents,

Page 18860












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Page 18861

1 certain documents, in their possession for a number of years. And now you

2 have this letter which has been sent to you very recently and you would

3 simply like to add this letter to your submissions. Am I correct,

4 Mr. Bourgon?

5 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Yes, quite correct, Mr. President.

6 And this is the reason why we asked to delay our response, in fact,

7 because we had been informed that we would be getting this letter on

8 Friday rather late, and we thought that we could submit it together with a

9 motion on Monday. Unfortunately, it was not possible because we only

10 received the letter on Tuesday.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well then.

12 Mr. Mundis, you have heard what Mr. Bourgon has just told us.

13 Now, this official document coming from the Government of Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina is already in your possession, which is going to allow you on

15 Thursday to respond in general terms to all these points. First of all,

16 the Defence's submissions and the document itself. Mr. Mundis.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. My learned colleague,

18 Mr. Bourgon, is in fact correct. We did receive the letter he has spoken

19 about. He has faxed that to us late last week. It does appear to be the

20 case, Mr. President, that nine of the proposed exhibits attached to the

21 Prosecution's application for re-opening were or have been in the

22 possession of the Office of the Prosecution since October 2002. We are

23 currently in the process of determining precisely what happened to this

24 material, and that is one of the reasons why I discussed this matter with

25 the Chamber's Legal Officer and suggested that perhaps Thursday would be

Page 18862

1 the best opportunity for us to be fully informed, to the extent that's

2 possible, and to convey the requisite information to the Trial Chamber.

3 At this point, let me simply indicate that the documents in

4 question, Mr. President, are those which are identified in our application

5 to re-open as coming from the Bosnian intelligence service, that is the

6 OSA documents, there are nine of them that were attached to our

7 application. They are easily recognisable by the solid black border on

8 the documents, and it is that material which is Prosecution received both

9 in October 2002 and then again in October 2004. There has previously been

10 some discussions about the electronic format in which those documents were

11 made available to the Prosecution, and I will again be in a position to

12 further discuss this matter with the Trial Chamber on Thursday. I do

13 anticipate that we will be in a position to fully articulate our position

14 with respect to these nine documents. At this point in time, I simply

15 felt that it was important for the Trial Chamber to be aware of this fact

16 because of our previous position that we were not relying on any documents

17 that were in our possession prior to the closing of the Prosecution case.

18 And in fact, these nine documents were received by a Defence investigator

19 in October 2002 on a CD, but once they were delivered to the -- excuse me

20 to a Prosecution investigator. I said "Defence investigator." So an

21 investigator of the OTP in October 2002, they were submitted to the

22 evidence unit, and at that point in time, Mr. President, we are still

23 undertaking some queries to determine what exactly happened to that

24 material once it went into the evidence unit.

25 I would be grateful for an opportunity to further elaborate upon

Page 18863

1 this on Thursday once I am in a better position to inform the Chamber as

2 to what precisely happened. And again, as Your Honour noted, we are still

3 awaiting the translation of the response to our application from the

4 Hadzihasanovic Defence team. I expect that translation sometime later

5 today. We may seek leave to reply to that, but I would be prepared,

6 Mr. President, in order to expedite the proceedings to respond -- or to --

7 if the Chamber permits me to reply, to do so orally on Thursday as well so

8 that we can in effect wrap up all of the various parties' legal

9 submissions concerning the application to re-open on Thursday, and that

10 would be the course that we would propose be undertaken, so as to move

11 this matter to its conclusion as quickly as possible.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, as you might

13 suspect, we have spent a great many hours contemplating this issue. Since

14 we need a decision, you will have a decision either in writing or orally

15 on Thursday. You've just confirmed the fact -- the following fact, that

16 is to say that nine documents coming from the OTP -- OSA were in your

17 possession since October 2002. It's on page 11 and 17 -- line 17 of the

18 transcript. And just from memory I can say that I remember that in the

19 letter that was addressed to -- obviously it was indicated that you had

20 796 exhibits and 114 electronic-format documents. And I'm wondering

21 whether this is correct, because it was not indicated in the initial

22 letter and in your submissions you made no reference to that. So I said

23 to myself, "What does this figure of 114 correspond to?" And now it

24 appears that amongst those 114 there are these famous nine documents.

25 Now, on Thursday you will be telling us what extra information you

Page 18864

1 have, but can you confirm as of now that these nine documents were indeed

2 in your possession since October 2002, perhaps not yours personally but

3 that the Prosecution as such had received that information on a CD.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution will confirm that in

5 October 2002 a CD was delivered to the field office in Sarajevo and was

6 subsequently brought here to The Hague. The investigator who received

7 that CD entered that CD into the evidence unit. I am not in a position at

8 this point in time to confirm what, if anything, was done with that CD

9 until over the weekend, following receipt of the facts from Mr. Bourgon,

10 Mr. Neuner and another member of the OTP staff retrieved that CD from the

11 evidence unit on Friday and began reviewing the material that was

12 contained on that CD. I am not in a position to confirm -- other than the

13 fact that this CD was received and placed in the evidence unit, I am not

14 in a position to inform the Trial Chamber as to any steps taken by anyone

15 within the Office of the Prosecutor with respect to the material that was

16 contained on that CD. And that, Mr. President, is precisely the questions

17 I am seeking to have answered so that I can inform the Trial Chamber what

18 steps, if any, were taken with respect to viewing the material that was

19 contained on that CD. I will confirm, however, that a CD with 114

20 electronic files on it and a number, apparently, of subfiles, if you will,

21 was in fact received by the Office of the Prosecutor in October 2002.

22 What was done with that CD, other than the fact that it was submitted to

23 the evidence unit until just a few days ago, I am not in a position

24 because we are attempting to determine the answers to that question. And

25 as the Trial Chamber might appreciate, virtually all of the staff members

Page 18865

1 who have worked on this case are -- there are only a few people left from

2 the investigation phase of this case. So it means attempting to locate

3 former staff members who are no longer with this institution and who are

4 working in various places around the world, and so communications with

5 some of them has been not as easy as we would have liked. So we're trying

6 to find the answers to these very questions, but to make -- to be right to

7 the point, Mr. President, we have had this material in the evidence unit

8 since October of 2002.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Mundis, for this

10 information. We'll see things more clearly on Thursday because by

11 Thursday you should have had sufficient time to look into the matter. You

12 will then confirm whether or not you in fact had these nine documents.

13 Is there anything you would like to add, Mr. Mundis?

14 MR. MUNDIS: Not on this point, Mr. President, but I would

15 simply -- perhaps it was simply an oversight, but with respect to the

16 Kubura 92 bis statements and documents, I believe, for the record it would

17 be important to have the Hadzihasanovic position stated with respect to

18 that material.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes. I'll give the floor to

20 General Hadzihasanovic's Defence team.

21 What is your position with regard to the three documents that

22 concern the two 92 bis witnesses?

23 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we agree with what

24 you have suggested and with Brigadier Kubura's Defence team, we have no

25 objections to make to the comments made by our colleagues. Thank you.

Page 18866

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Before I give the floor to

4 Mr. Bourgon again, who is on his feet already, I would like to point out

5 that the Chamber believes that on Thursday the Prosecution will provide an

6 oral answer to all the issues raised. That involves a response to the

7 Defence submissions, and the Prosecution should also inform us of its

8 position with regard to the famous letter from the Bosnia and Herzegovina

9 authorities, which was disclosed by the Defence to the Prosecution over

10 the weekend. This should enable us to save time and by Thursday we should

11 already be informed of the Prosecution's position with regard to all these

12 issues and with regard to the motion to re-open its case. The Chamber

13 will, naturally, gladly accept this letter being communicated to the --

14 communicated through the Legal Officer through Mr. Bourgon, I'm referring

15 to the letter from the Bosnia and Herzegovina authorities. This should

16 enable us to save time.

17 Mr. Bourgon, I will give the floor to you now.

18 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. This is

19 what I wanted to raise. I have the letter with me -- this is the issue I

20 wanted to raise. I can provide you with the letter immediately. I have

21 the original letter in B/C/S and I have a translation from the CLSS.

22 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. The usher will

23 collect the letter and copies will be made of the letter.

24 We'll now go back into open session.

25 Madam Registrar, let's go back into open session -- in fact, we

Page 18867

1 are in open session.

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, we are already in open session.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, we are. We are in fact in

4 open session. Before we call the witness into the courtroom, I would just

5 like to point out that the Legal Officer informed you of a provisional

6 schedule which should make it possible for the case to be closed by

7 mid-July. Initially we will have submissions, written submissions, from

8 both parties, and then there will be the closing arguments. As far as the

9 first stage is concerned, since the Prosecution works in English, it would

10 be good if the Defence's submissions were also drafted in English. This

11 should allow the Prosecution, when it takes the floor, to present its

12 arguments because if they have their submissions in English they will be

13 able to present their arguments. For -- if they have to wait for an

14 English translation, this might be problematic. This concerns

15 General Hadzihasanovic's Defence above all.

16 Would that be a problem for you to have your submissions in

17 English, although you are very good in French, too?

18 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I must

19 admit I'm a little surprise by the Chamber's request. We can write in

20 English or in French; that is not a problem if the Chamber so desires. We

21 can write our written submission in English. If we do -- if we write our

22 submissions in French, this is not to cause any problems, but it's only to

23 enable the Chamber to have the document in French. But if the Chamber

24 would like our final brief to be in English, well, we will draft it in

25 English.

Page 18868

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] I'm sure that Mr. Mundis would

2 appreciate that. That will enable him to prepare.

3 Is there anything else that has to be addressed, any other

4 technical issues that have to be addressed by either of the parties before

5 we call the witness into the courtroom? If not, I will ask the usher to

6 call the witness into the courtroom.

7 [The witness entered court].

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Good day, sir. I would first

9 like to make sure that you are receiving interpretation of what I'm

10 saying. If so, please say you can hear and understand me.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear and understand you.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You have been called here as a

13 witness for General Kubura's Defence. Before you take the solemn

14 declaration, could you tell me your first and last names, your date of

15 birth, and your place of birth.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My name is Osman Hasanagic. I was

17 born in Rogatica in Bosnia and Herzegovina on the 16th of September, 1957.

18 I live in Sarajevo and I work in the Klas company as the chief of the

19 legal department, the head of the legal department.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In 1992 and 1993, what was your

21 occupation? And if you were a member of the military, which unit were you

22 a member of and what rank did you hold or what position did you have?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1992 at the beginning of the war,

24 I was in Rogatica in my place of birth. The first job I had was in the

25 administration of social revenue as an inspector. And then later I went

Page 18869

1 to the Klas Sarajevo company and became a manager of the bakery, which was

2 part of the Klas company in Sarajevo. When the war broke out, I was in

3 Rogatica with my family and I remained there until the 19th of June of the

4 same year, when the Serbian enemy committed a total act of aggression

5 against the population of Bosnia. On that day, the entire Bosniak

6 population that had remained in Rogatica was either expelled or killed.

7 Panic spread.

8 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but could you tell me which

9 unit you were assigned to then, where you were then.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was in Rogatica. I was among the

11 population and I worked until the 15th of May, 1992. And then a real

12 blockade developed. It wasn't possible to leave, and the people naturally

13 remained in Rogatica and some of them fled in time.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, but were you assigned to a

15 combat unit of any kind? And if so, which unit were you assigned to?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the time there were no organised

17 units. We were all in a certain sense members of the Territorial Defence

18 from the 8th of April, 1992, but this wasn't adequately organised. And it

19 didn't have the characteristics of a defence system. The people were not

20 armed --

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] But later, which unit were you

22 assigned to?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Rogatica fell on the 19th of

24 June, 1992, my family and I and the other inhabitants went over the

25 mountains towards Sarajevo.

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Page 18871

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You are providing too lengthy

2 responses. I want to know which unit you were assigned to. We know you

3 were a member of the Territorial Defence, but then which unit were you

4 assigned to? Let's leave your family aside and let's deal with the

5 military unit you were assigned to.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to Gorazde and I joined the

7 Territorial Defence there, or rather the Rogatica Brigade that had been

8 established. I was a private in that unit.

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] And in 1993?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The end of 1992, on the 24th of

11 December to be more precise, with permission from the command of the

12 brigade, from Gorazde, I went to the free territory with my family. I

13 intended to go to Sarajevo. However, since Sarajevo was under a total

14 blockade, it was only possible to go to Zenica where I had some friends

15 and some relatives of my wife's. This trip took us seven days and on the

16 1st of January --

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The fact that your trip lasted

18 for seven days is very interesting, but that tells me nothing about the

19 unit you were assigned to. Which unit were you assigned to in Zenica?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I arrived in Zenica, I reported

21 to the Territorial Defence Staff in order to be put on the record, and I

22 wanted to continue working in the army. I was told that there was no

23 position for me there at the time, but I was told to try with the 314th

24 Brigade, to try and report to the 314th Brigade or to the 7th Muslim

25 Brigade. I first went to the 314th Brigade, however the lowest position

Page 18872

1 had been taken so I then went to the 7th Muslim Brigade where I knew

2 Mr. Halil Brzina, as we had played handball together. He was the

3 assistant commander for logistics. I knew him because of his interest in

4 handball. This happened at the beginning of July 1993.

5 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. So we found out that

6 you joined the 7th Muslim Brigade. Could you tell me whether you have

7 already testified before an international or a national court about the

8 events that took place in your country in 1992 and 1993, or is this the

9 first time?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time.

11 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Could you please read out the

12 solemn declaration.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


16 [Witness answered through interpreter]

17 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You may sit down.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] As you are a lawyer, it will be

20 very easy for you to understand the information I am now going to provide

21 you with. I would like to inform you of the procedure that we will be

22 following today. If everything runs smoothly, it won't be necessary for

23 you to return tomorrow. You will first have to answer the questions put

24 to you by Brigadier Kubura's Defence counsel, and you will certainly met

25 his counsel in the course of your proofing.

Page 18873

1 Once you have answered the questions put to you, the Prosecution,

2 who are to your right, will conduct what is called their

3 cross-examination. Once this stage has been completed, Brigadier Kubura's

4 Defence team can ask you additional questions that relate to the responses

5 you have given to the Prosecution in the course of their

6 cross-examination. As far as General Hadzihasanovic's Defence team is

7 concerned, once the examination-in-chief has been completed they may also

8 put questions to you. The three Judges, who are sitting before you, may

9 also ask you questions, but as a rule the Judges prefer to wait for the

10 parties to complete their examination before intervening. Very often --

11 as very often, the questions that the Judges want to ask a witness will

12 have already been asked by one of the parties. It's not necessary to

13 intervene unnecessarily; this is why we prefer to wait for the parties to

14 complete their examination and cross-examination before we put questions

15 to witnesses. If we put questions to you, we will do so for two reasons.

16 Firstly, we may ask you questions because we believe that the answers you

17 have provided to the parties require clarification or because given the

18 position you held or the positions you held in various units, we believe

19 that there's certain information that might assist the Judges. And we

20 will then ask you questions to obtain this information. Once the Judges

21 have put their questions to you, we will then give the floor to both

22 parties again, and the Defence will be the last to take the floor to put

23 any questions to you that they believe might be of interest to them.

24 There are two other issues I would like to draw your attention to.

25 You have taken the solemn declaration, which as a lawyer you should know

Page 18874

1 excludes the possibility of giving false testimony. False testimony is

2 punishable. And there is also something very specific to our procedure;

3 it is somewhat complicated. I would like to point out that the witness

4 may refuse to answer a question if the witness believes that his answer

5 might subsequently be used against him to -- if the witness believes that

6 this might incriminate him. But in such a case -- this has never arisen

7 to date, but in such a case the Chamber may give the witness a form of

8 immunity but compel the witness to answer the question. In such a

9 position, the procedure followed is an oral procedure. This is why you

10 will see that everything you say is interpreted and appears on the screen

11 that is in front of you. This is why the answers you provide are so

12 important. Try to answer the questions extensively, but avoid going off

13 on a tangent. Try to answer the questions put to you precisely. If you

14 fail to understand a question, don't hesitate to ask the party putting the

15 question to you to rephrase the question.

16 In the course of the proceedings, the parties might show you

17 military documents to ask you whether you can recognise the documents.

18 The Defence or the Prosecution might show you such documents, and

19 sometimes in exceptional cases the Judges might show you such documents,

20 too. If you run into any difficulties in the course of the proceedings,

21 do inform us of the fact. In about three-quarters of an hour we will be

22 having a break, and there will be a second break, too. The purpose of the

23 break is to allow you to have a rest, since answering questions

24 incessantly can be tiring, and secondly it's necessary for the technicians

25 to change the tapes. This is how we will be proceeding, and without

Page 18875

1 wasting anymore time, I will now give the floor to the Defence for their

2 examination-in-chief.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

4 Examined by Mr. Ibrisimovic:

5 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Hasanagic.

6 A. Good day.

7 Q. In response to a question from the Presiding Judge you said where

8 you were in 1992 and 1993. I will first ask you, you said that in 1992

9 you were in Rogatica when the war broke out. Where is Rogatica?

10 A. Rogatica is 68 kilometres from Sarajevo. It's in Eastern Bosnia.

11 There were about 8.000 inhabitants in the town, and there were about

12 24.000 inhabitants in the municipality. As far as the Bosniak and Serbian

13 population is concerned, the ratio was 64 to 36 per cent.

14 Q. You said that in June 1992 you were in Rogatica and that you then

15 went to Gorazde. Can you tell us where Gorazde is located?

16 A. Gorazde is 30 kilometres by motorway from Rogatica, but given the

17 blockade of the roads from May 1992 onwards, it wasn't possible to use

18 that road. When Rogatica fell on the 19th of June, 1992, the people had

19 to use mountain paths, so-called goat paths. And they'd use these

20 mountainous paths when we left at 2.00 in the morning and went to the

21 first village, and when we arrived in the village of Ragole [phoen] --

22 Well, this trip lasted for 24 hours.

23 Q. Where is Gorazde? In which part of Bosnia and Herzegovina is it

24 located in?

25 A. Gorazde is in Eastern Bosnia.

Page 18876

1 Q. You said that in December 1992 you and your family left Gorazde.

2 Who were your family members? Who did you leave Gorazde with?

3 A. My -- there were four members of my core family, my wife, myself,

4 and my children. My daughter, Jasna, 4 years old, and my son Zlatko

5 6-years-old. We went over Grebak a well-known mountain. There was over a

6 metre of snow. We had no food. We had no money. We had nothing. Our

7 only chance was to try and reach the free territory, and I received

8 permission to do so from the then-commander Mr. Burbasic.

9 Q. You said that you arrived in Zenica. How long did your journey

10 last and how did you go there?

11 A. That journey lasted seven days. We went there on foot all the way

12 there, mostly at night because we were afraid that we would be

13 intercepted. We feared what might happen to us. We went over Mountain

14 Igman. We were on Mountain Igman for two days, and then over Trnovo, too.

15 We spent two days at Trnovo, too. We went over Tarcin we spent one day

16 going over Tarcin, and on the seventh day we reached Zenica.

17 Q. When did you arrive in Zenica exactly?

18 A. We arrived in Zenica on the 1st of January, 1993.

19 Q. You said that it took you seven days and seven nights to get

20 there. What's the distance between Gorazde and Zenica?

21 A. I don't know what the exact distance is, given the roads, given

22 the paths we took, the mountains and certain secondary routes, it's

23 difficult to say. But I'm quite sure that it was about 300 or 400

24 kilometres if you go there by such a route.

25 Q. You said that upon your arrival at Zenica you reported to the

Page 18877

1 Territorial Defence. You don't need to repeat all that, but I'm

2 interested to find out when exactly you arrived at the 7th Muslim Brigade.

3 A. I got to the 7th Muslim Brigade on the 7th of July, 1993. I went

4 for an interview at the brigade command, and I was received first and

5 foremost by Mr. Halil Brzina, whom I had known before the war because we

6 played handball together. And so we were both athletes together. He

7 explained to me that he needed a legal officer, and he introduced me to

8 Mr. Amir Kubura, who was the Chief of Staff and who also welcomed me very

9 nicely and wished me straight away to be able to join the 7th Muslim

10 Brigade. He explained to me the basic principles and what my duties would

11 be. And thereupon I accepted immediately to join the 7th Muslim Brigade,

12 where I was told that there was a vacancy for a duty legal officer there

13 and there had been a vacancy for a long time. Basically the name of the

14 post was the officer for legal affairs of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

15 Q. My next question was going to be exactly that, what was your

16 position within the 7th Muslim Brigade?

17 A. I've just told you that I was the officer for legal affairs of the

18 7th Muslim Brigade and I was directly accountable to the brigade

19 commander.

20 Q. Did you know who the commander was at that time when you joined

21 the 7th Muslim Brigade I mean?

22 A. At that time I did not know what was the commander of the 7th

23 Muslim Brigade, but my first interview, or rather my second interview was

24 with Mr. Amir Kubura, who was the Chief of Staff. At that time I had no

25 knowledge as to who the commander of the brigade was.

Page 18878

1 Q. Did you ever get to find out?

2 A. A short time later I found out that the brigade commander was

3 Mr. Asim Koricic and that he had actually been absent for a long time

4 already, that he was on an official leave. And I made no further

5 inquiries as to his whereabouts and why he was away.

6 Q. Where was your office, since you were a legal officer of the 7th

7 Muslim Brigade?

8 A. I was in a small office which is situated at the command office

9 building. And I was the only legal officer at the time. And next to us

10 there was another building for another battalion, and then there was

11 another part of the building where there was a restaurant and an entrance

12 to the Bilmiste hall.

13 Q. That was in the same building where your office was. And were

14 there any offices for the other members of the command there?

15 A. Yes. In that building there was the office for the brigade

16 commander, the deputy commander, the Chief of Staff. My own office was

17 there and -- and a part of another command.

18 Q. Do you know where Mr. Kubura's office was?

19 A. Mr. Kubura's office was across the hall from the office of the

20 commander of the brigade, and it said at the door of his office "Chief of

21 Staff."

22 Q. Thank you. Until when did you remain in that position as a legal

23 officer for the 7th Brigade, or were there any changes of your status or

24 any change of your duties later on?

25 A. The duties of the legal affairs officer was something that I

Page 18879

1 carried out between the 7th of July, 1993, and the month of April 1994,

2 when I was appointed as assistant commander for legal affairs -- or

3 rather, the department was called legal affairs sector or department. And

4 I was given the rank of captain, and I -- and it was on the basis of the

5 orders of our command of the 3rd Corps.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we are going to

8 be using two documents only with this witness. So if you agree, we could

9 first of all show the document from 1993.

10 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, could you take a look at the document number 2192

11 dated the 11th of November, 1993.

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

13 Mr. President, it's a new document.

14 Q. Have you had a chance to take a look at it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. It reflects what you have told us about about your duties when you

17 joined the 7th Muslim Brigade?

18 A. Yes, that's exactly what it is about.

19 Q. Thank you very much.

20 Mr. Hasanagic, can you tell the Court about when you joined the

21 7th Muslim Brigade. What was the situation, taking into account your own

22 job, rules, regulations, et cetera, what was your job in fact?

23 A. When I joined the 7th Muslim Brigade, I found a state of affairs

24 which was rather unsettled and confused with regard to rules and

25 regulations. I was not provided with any documentation, any set of rules,

Page 18880












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18881

1 laws, regulations, any legal publications, official journals, or anything

2 that would provide a basis for my work.

3 Q. When you joined the 7th Muslim Brigade, did you ask for assistance

4 or suggestions as to how you could do your job?

5 A. I did ask for assistance and I did get it from the command of the

6 3rd Corps, the department for legal affairs, especially from

7 Mr. Jusuf Halilagic who was assistant commander for legal affairs of the

8 3rd Corps, who introduced me to my job and my duties, and he provided me

9 with indispensable assistance and he gave me some documents, some rules

10 and regulations, and he clarified a little bit what they normally did at

11 the corps and what I was supposed to do at the 7th Muslim Brigade. And I

12 can say that I got all the assistance from Mr. Halilagic, who, as I say,

13 introduced me to my job and the way in which I was supposed to carry out

14 my duties. And thereupon, I had a somewhat clearer picture as to what I

15 was supposed to do.

16 Q. Before I move on to the next question, I would like to ask you the

17 following: Prior to that had you ever worked at any courts within the

18 judicial system at all or any other system having to do with judicial

19 matters?

20 A. No. Up until that time -- as I said, my first job was as

21 inspector for financial matters and was not in business. And afterwards I

22 moved into the business world. And so I had no connection, nothing to do

23 with the judicial matters in any way.

24 Q. What were your duties as a legal affairs officer?

25 A. My duties and obligations were to apply the rules of the military

Page 18882

1 service very rigorously as well as the laws and to provide full expert

2 support to the command of the brigade and the subordinate units in terms

3 of implementing rules, laws, and regulations, which regulated the way they

4 should behave in war and which regulated warfare in general. My second

5 duty was to provide legal assistance to all members of the brigade with

6 regard to any urgent status matters, considering the fact that the

7 overwhelming majority of those fighters were refugees and had no proper

8 housing and were almost starving. They would get one aid package a month.

9 So I spent a great deal of my time dealing with the civilian authorities,

10 with a view of solving those urgent matters pertaining to housing. And in

11 quite a few cases, I was successful. Obviously the brigade had its own

12 criteria, its own lists of priorities such as, for example, the families

13 of soldiers who had either died or been wounded, then wounded soldiers,

14 and then -- only then healthy and fit members of the armed forces.

15 Also, my other duties included the implementation and application

16 of rules and regulations, especially with regard to criminal proceedings,

17 and the -- point 16 of the Criminal Code -- Penal Code of the former

18 Yugoslavia which had -- which was still in force on the basis of a decree,

19 and that referred to any crimes against humanity such as genocide, any

20 crimes committed against civilians or prisoners of war or the sick and

21 wounded. Obviously in that part of my job, it was my duty to apply the

22 rules and to thus instruct and set an example for the brigade and the

23 subordinated units in order to make sure that all soldiers were

24 well-acquainted with those rules and that they would indeed apply those

25 rules in the field, or rather in the course of armed conflict.

Page 18883

1 Q. I do apologise. You can finish.

2 A. Throughout that period, I had a great deal of assistance and

3 support from Mr. Amir Kubura, who throughout that period insisted that all

4 the rules and regulations and all the legal provisions should be applied

5 strictly. And he made sure that he applied them rigorously. Of course he

6 was in a position to do that because of his authority and his -- and the

7 fact this he was very familiar with the military doctrine. Apart from

8 that, within the 7th Muslim Brigade there was a service called military

9 security service.

10 Q. I do apologise for interrupting you. You can come back to that

11 later. But when you mentioned instructing, educating, soldiers, could you

12 clarify that? What did you mean exactly?

13 A. What I meant was that Mr. Amir Kubura asked me to give lectures to

14 members of our units and to alert them and engage in preventative action

15 with regard to the behaviour which is appropriate in war and to warn them

16 of sanctions in case any crimes were committed, any crimes in -- which

17 would represent an infringement of the Geneva Convention with regard to

18 the civilian population, the wounded, medical staff, and also property,

19 the property that belonged to third parties. Apart from that, it was also

20 my task to react in case any infringements were reported by the security

21 services with regard to disciplinary measures. Any investigations were

22 conducted by the security service. And once we got reports of these

23 infringements of the rules of behaviour, which would indicate that

24 disciplinary proceedings were called for, I would get a statement from the

25 accused and gather evidence and qualify the infringements in question and

Page 18884

1 try and determine how serious it was. And then I would draft a possible

2 decision, a proposed decision, for a penalty and for the measures that

3 were called for - measures or punishments, depending on how serious the

4 infringement was - and such a decision in the form of a proposal would

5 then be submitted to Mr. Amir Kubura.

6 For the most part, Mr. Amir Kubura would go along with my

7 suggestions and would sign these draft documents as to the disciplinary

8 measures to be imposed upon members of the brigade. Normally those were

9 not very serious crimes, and most penalties were up to seven days in

10 detention or maximum was 30 or 60 days in detention for more serious

11 infringements.

12 Q. I have to interrupt you here. Do you know when Mr. Kubura became

13 commander?

14 A. Mr. Kubura became commander by the beginning of August 1993.

15 Q. Thank you. When you mentioned these disciplinary procedures or

16 infringements, could you clarify a little bit. What sorts of

17 infringements were we talking about? What sorts of offences? What did

18 they refer to?

19 A. All those infringements were described in the set of rules and

20 regulations with regard to disciplinary accountability. And for the most

21 part, we were talking about people leaving the unit of their own accord or

22 damaging the reputation of the unit by maybe petty thefts of ammunition

23 and MTS for disturbing others or not obeying the orders of their

24 superiors, and a whole range of other matters such as disturbing public

25 law and order and what have you.

Page 18885

1 Q. Where would those penalties be imposed and how would people be

2 detained?

3 A. People were detained at the premises of our own brigade up to

4 seven days. And everything in excess of seven days would mean that the

5 person in question would be sent to the correction institution at Zenica,

6 and they would be escorted there by our own security officers. We

7 recorded all the comings and goings, and thereupon the detainee would be

8 brought back to the unit to resume his duties. As to penalties of more

9 than 30 days in prison, more serious penalties, were also imposed at this

10 penal and correctional facility at Zenica.

11 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, perhaps we could

12 move on to a another topic now, but maybe this is the right time for a

13 break.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] So we will have a technical

15 break now and we shall come back at around 4.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 3.38 p.m.

17 --- Upon resuming at 4.07 p.m.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We will now resume and I'll give

19 the floor to the Defence.

20 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, in the department that you worked in as a legal

22 officer, were you alone or were there any other individuals who worked

23 there?

24 A. No, I worked alone. There was no one else.

25 Q. Before the break you mentioned the security service. I

Page 18886

1 interrupted you at that point. You mentioned the 7th Brigade security

2 service. Among the duties you had to perform as a legal officer, did you

3 get involved at all with the work of the security service?

4 A. The security service acted independently. It was organised as a

5 military security service. It had its assistant commander, its officers,

6 and military policemen. They worked according to their own rules and

7 regulations. They had rules and regulations concerning military security.

8 Their field of work was governed by those rules. I did not have much

9 contact with them. Our work did not overlap, apart from when they would

10 ask for certain rules or laws to be interpreted. And they would also ask

11 for me to provide them with certain instructions or assist them

12 professionally with some of their work. I had no other contact with them,

13 apart from the fact that I already mentioned that I worked in accordance

14 with their reports when it came to instituting criminal proceedings [as

15 interpreted] against members of our unit for offences that I have already

16 mentioned.

17 Q. As a legal officer, was it possible for you to participate in

18 investigations or to conduct investigations?

19 A. No, that was not my duty. That was -- that fell within the field

20 of competence of the security service. They alone were responsible for

21 such matters.

22 Q. Do you know who the assistant commander for security was? Who was

23 in charge of the security service?

24 A. The assistant commander for security was Mr. Nesib Talic. I know

25 him by profession. He had his offices, his security service, or rather

Page 18887

1 his military policemen. He was directly accountable to the brigade

2 command.

3 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] For the sake of the transcript,

4 Mr. President, on page 33, line 19 it should say "disciplinary measures,"

5 not "criminal proceedings."

6 Q. Did you exchange correspondence with the security service at all?

7 A. Well, yes, in that I had to respond to the reports they would

8 file, and I would have to continue working on the proceedings instituted.

9 I had to draft decisions on disciplinary responsibility and forward them

10 to the brigade commander as a proposal.

11 Q. I don't think this is in the transcript. What do you say

12 Mr. Talic was by profession?

13 A. Mr. Talic was a lawyer by profession.

14 Q. As a legal officer, did you participate in taking decisions

15 drafting orders on bringing people in?

16 A. [No audible response]

17 Q. Could you please have a look at the second document that is before

18 you, and perhaps you could comment on the document. I showed you this

19 document in the course of the proofing.

20 A. I've managed to read through this order. It's been signed by the

21 assistant commander for security, Mr. Nesib Talic.

22 Q. Could you read out item 2 in the order. It's an order dated

23 September 1993.

24 A. "It shall be prohibited to arrest or apprehend persons without

25 approval from the assistant commander for security or from persons he has

Page 18888

1 authorised."

2 Q. Could you read out item 1.

3 A. "Searching flats and other closed premises by military policemen

4 without approval from the assistant commander for security or from persons

5 whom he has authorised to issue such approval is hereby prohibited."

6 Q. Before I showed you this document, I asked you whether as a legal

7 officer you were in a position to take part in drafting such orders? Were

8 you familiar with such orders?

9 A. No. I would never receive such orders nor was I involved in the

10 drafting of such orders. The assistant commander followed the rules of

11 service for the military security service when he was involved in his

12 work.

13 Q. Did the security service cooperate with the 3rd Corps security

14 service?

15 A. Yes. The security service cooperated closely with the military

16 security service of the 3rd Corps, or rather of the Military Police

17 Battalion. They carried out orders. They forwarded orders to the higher

18 command and acted in accordance with orders. It was their duty to act in

19 this way.

20 Q. Given your answer, I will now ask you who was responsible for

21 conducting investigations in the 7th Muslim Brigade.

22 A. The military security service alone.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 Mr. Hasanagic, do you know where the music school is located?

25 A. Yes, I do. The music school is about 2 kilometres from the 7th

Page 18889

1 Muslim Brigade command, or rather it was located there.

2 Q. Do you know who stayed in the music school, who was responsible

3 for the music school?

4 A. The military security service was responsible for the music

5 school, and there was a military detention unit there. And after I

6 arrived for a brief period of time there was a military clinic for the

7 wounded from the 7th Muslim Brigade that was located there.

8 Q. Did you ever visit the music school?

9 A. I never had the opportunity of visiting the music school, nor did

10 I have the opportunity of seeing the military detention unit there. I

11 went there, I went to the clinic at a later date to visit a soldier, and

12 there is nothing else that I can tell you about the music school.

13 Q. As a legal officer in the brigade, did you have the opportunity of

14 attending meetings of the brigade command?

15 A. As the legal officer, quite rarely. But when I did attend such

16 meetings, they never discussed the music school. Later when I became the

17 assistant commander for legal affairs, I regularly attended meetings and

18 briefings.

19 Q. Did Mr. Talic ever raise any issues that related to the music

20 school and what happened in the music school?

21 A. Never in my presence.

22 Q. Did he ask questions at the meetings that you attended in the

23 brigade?

24 A. No, he didn't, especially not when he was no longer a member of

25 the military security service. I'm talking about the period when I became

Page 18890












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.













Page 18891

1 the assistant commander.

2 Q. Did you have any information about the conditions in the music

3 school, under what sort of conditions people were taken there?

4 A. I acted on requests to institute disciplinary proceedings, and

5 this only concerned members of our brigade. As far as other individuals

6 were concerned, I wouldn't receive any reports or any information. I

7 wouldn't receive documents of any kind that had to do with other

8 individuals who might have been detained in that detention unit. If I had

9 had any such documents, I would have acted on them.

10 Q. Did you ever take a statement from anyone who was not a member of

11 your brigade?

12 A. No, never. Only from members of the 7th Muslim Brigade.

13 Q. And finally, do you know up until when Mr. Kubura was in the 7th

14 Muslim Brigade?

15 A. Mr. Amir Kubura was the commander of the brigade until April 1994.

16 I personally attended a meeting of the command when he was informed of the

17 transfer to other duties. No other explanation was provided. I was

18 personally quite surprised by this decision and by this explanation

19 because my personal and professional position was that I should comply

20 with all the orders, all the documents, issued by the brigade commander.

21 I think that he was an exceptional officer. He had a lot of authority.

22 He was impartial, and he would not spare himself nor would he spare

23 others.

24 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Hasanagic.

25 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, we have no

Page 18892

1 further questions. This completes our examination-in-chief.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 I will now give the floor to General Hadzihasanovic's Defence

4 team, if they have any questions for this witness.

5 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We have

6 a few questions for this witness.

7 Cross-examined by Ms. Residovic:

8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Hasanagic, my name is Edina Residovic and

9 together with my colleague, Stephane Bourgon, I represent

10 General Enver Hadzihasanovic. When answering the questions put to you by

11 my learned friend you said that on the 7th of July you arrived in the 7th

12 Muslim Brigade and you were then appointed as the legal officer there. Is

13 that correct?

14 A. Yes, that's correct.

15 Q. Up until that point in time, the legal matters that you have

16 referred to were not dealt with by lawyers. Is that correct?

17 A. Yes, that's correct.

18 Q. As a lawyer who arrived in Zenica as a refugee, could you confirm

19 that at that time there were a lot of -- there was a great demand for

20 lawyers in the army, but it wasn't possible to satisfy all these demands

21 because some lawyers had left Zenica and many others were working for the

22 judiciary. So it was not at all surprising that up until that point in

23 time, the 7th Muslim Brigade did not have a lawyer. Is that the situation

24 you came across in the 7th Muslim Brigade?

25 A. Yes, that would be, roughly speaking, the situation that I

Page 18893

1 encountered. There wasn't a sufficient amount of -- sufficient number of

2 lawyers, social workers, doctors.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. Not only in our unit, but in other units, too.

5 Q. When you describe your duties you said that you spent a lot of

6 time on social issues that concerned the members of the 7th Muslim

7 Brigade. My question is as follows: Since, as can be seen from the

8 evidence presented here to date, it's quite clear that the 7th Muslim

9 Brigade was composed of quite a large number of refugees, and the problem

10 you came across was significant. People did not have premises where they

11 could stay and live with their families. Is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that's correct. I believe that that is one of the most

13 significant problems, the social status of the refugees. And I was one of

14 them.

15 Q. However, would you agree with me, Mr. Hasanagic, if I said that

16 that problem could not be dealt with by the 7th Muslim Brigade or by any

17 other brigade or corps because when it came to distributing abandoned

18 property, flats, socially owned flats or privately owned flats, when it

19 came to distributing such property, only the competent authorities in

20 Zenica could deal with such matters?

21 A. Yes, that's quite correct. There were no military flats that

22 could be allocated by the army. And as far as all the abandoned flats are

23 concerned, the municipal service, or rather the municipal secretariat for

24 residential issues was responsible for this. They would keep records on

25 flats that have been abandoned and the command would contact them in order

Page 18894

1 to try and resolve the housing problems that their members had.

2 Q. My following question is as follows. You said that in the brigade

3 you would establish a list of people who had priorities. Your criteria

4 for priorities involved suggesting to the authorities that they take into

5 account the priorities that you had. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes, that's correct.

7 Q. When you assumed your position as legal officer, you said that you

8 were greatly assisted by the 3rd Corps command and in particular by

9 Mr. Halilagic who was the head of the legal department in the 3rd Corps.

10 Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, that is the best form of assistance that I received. Without

12 their assistance, I couldn't have performed my duties in an adequate

13 manner.

14 Q. Mr. Hasanagic, would you agree with me if I said that by

15 cooperating with the 3rd Corps and Mr. Halilagic, it was possible for you

16 to see that the 3rd Corps took respect for discipline in the army very

17 seriously?

18 A. Yes, correct. The 3rd Corps issued binding orders for all

19 brigades, and that included the 7th Muslim Brigade, too. They issued

20 orders stating that all the rules and laws of war should be abided by.

21 Q. And that's my following question. You said that you received from

22 Mr. Halilagic various documents and instructions. Would it be correct to

23 say that among the instructions that you received there were instructions

24 and copies of the Criminal Code of the SFRY, and this assisted you in the

25 brigades when it came to explaining the duties and obligations that the

Page 18895

1 soldiers had?

2 A. Yes. Mr. Halilagic provided me with his own copy of the Criminal

3 Code.

4 Q. I would also like to ask you whether when performing your duties

5 you were able to determine if the 3rd Corps position was that it was

6 necessary to train not just members of the command but the soldiers in the

7 brigades so that they could understand and respect orders and abide by the

8 law. Is this something that you observed when trying to implement the

9 policies of the 3rd Corps?

10 A. Yes. We received such instructions and we behaved in accordance

11 with the instructions. Whenever it was possible in our free time we would

12 inform everyone of these instructions.

13 Q. Since you answered a question and said that you were also involved

14 in providing instruction, this is part of your duties, when it comes to

15 abiding by the rules and by the laws, was this part of the instructions

16 and the training that you provided for units that were subordinated to

17 you?

18 A. Yes, that was the legal basis for interpreting the orders, for

19 implementing them. This is how instruction was provided in order to

20 ensure that all army members were discouraged from committing illegal

21 acts.

22 Q. You also asked a question from my colleague, Mr. Ibrisimovic,

23 about instituting disciplinary proceedings for offences or misdemeanours.

24 Tell me, was it the 3rd Corps policy that anyone who had committed an

25 offence, a misdemeanour, had to be held accountable?

Page 18896

1 A. Yes, that was the position of the 3rd Corps command and of the

2 command of my brigade.

3 Q. When preparing professional documents for the brigade commander,

4 initially the Chief of Staff, as you said, and then the brigade commander,

5 you adhered to such -- to those instructions very strictly?

6 A. Yes, and all my proposals and instructions were respected by the

7 brigade commander, Mr. Amir Kubura.

8 Q. And there were no members of your brigade who would be exempt from

9 responsibility if it was established that he had committed some sort of an

10 offence?

11 A. There were no exceptions.

12 Q. You were involved in instituting proceedings, both members of the

13 brigade and battalion commanders. There were measures taken at all levels

14 if you determined that an offence or crime had been committed. Is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes. Everyone was treated in the same way, regardless of whether

17 they were officers or just privates.

18 Q. And finally, Mr. Hasanagic, before you arrived there, the duties

19 you tried to perform consistently and to the best of your ability were

20 performed as best as possible by members of the brigade command, to the

21 extent they were capable of doing that. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, to the extent they were capable of performing these duties,

23 that was done and I think that we were capable of performing those duties.

24 Q. Thank you very much.

25 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

Page 18897

1 Mr. President.

2 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm now going to

3 give the floor to the Prosecution for their cross-examination.

4 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Mundis:

6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Hasanagic.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. My name is -- my name is Daryl Mundis and along with my colleagues

9 represent the Prosecution in this case. I do have a few questions for

10 you, sir, but before starting I want to reassure you that it is not our

11 intention in any way to confuse you and I would ask you that in the event

12 you don't understand one of my questions, please simply say so and I will

13 rephrase the question so that you do understand it.

14 A. Thank you.

15 Q. Let me start out, sir, by asking you to clarify, if you can, the

16 relationship between yourself, as the 7th Muslim Brigade legal officer,

17 and the district military court in Zenica.

18 A. I very rarely had any opportunity to get in touch with them

19 directly. On a couple of occasions, I visited the district prosecution

20 offices and the court for some points of interpretation, in order to offer

21 legal assistance when members of the 7th Muslim Brigade were accused of

22 some misdemeanours.

23 Q. Do you recall, sir, approximately how many times from the 7th of

24 July, 1993, until the end of 1993 you had the opportunity to have

25 interaction with judges or prosecutors or investigating judges of the

Page 18898

1 district military court in Zenica?

2 A. Three to four times, roughly speaking.

3 Q. Did you, sir, at any point in time from 7 July 1993 through the

4 end of 1993 have any dealings with the district military court in Travnik?

5 A. No, never.

6 Q. Can you explain to us a little bit more about the role that you

7 had, again focussing on the period in 1993 when you were the legal

8 officer, your role with respect to any cases that were sent to the

9 district military court in Zenica for further investigation and possible

10 Prosecution.

11 A. No, I did not know.

12 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence, please.

13 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness has

14 already answered, but my objection is that the witness has already said

15 that he had never been involved in any investigations. So perhaps we

16 could clarify the question in this respect.

17 MR. MUNDIS: Let me rephrase the question.

18 Q. Sir, I understand that you personally were not involved in any

19 investigations and that the 7th Muslim Brigade security service was

20 responsible for investigations. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, that's correct.

22 Q. In the event Mr. Talic, the assistant commander for security, or

23 any of his security service personnel wanted to submit a case to the

24 district military court in Zenica for further investigation or perhaps

25 Prosecution, would you have been involved in any way in terms of reviewing

Page 18899

1 that material or providing advice or did you get a copy of such material

2 that was submitted to the military court? Can you tell us a little bit

3 about your role as the legal officer in that process with the security

4 service in the district military court in Zenica.

5 A. Mr. Talic, that is to say the security service, never submitted to

6 me any written documents and they never asked me for any assistance when

7 it was a matter of dealing with any crimes. The security services worked

8 within the framework of their duties and what they were authorised to do.

9 And they had close cooperation with the security service of the 3rd Corps.

10 I'm not aware of any cases and I'm certain of that. I'm not aware of any

11 document of such nature coming from Mr. Talic having been addressed to me.

12 Q. Let me ask you, sir, if you were aware - and I'm not, again, in

13 any way suggesting that you were personally involved in any

14 investigations - but were you aware in your capacity as a legal officer of

15 any member of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade being investigated, charged,

16 disciplined, or in any other way prosecuted for alleged crimes committed

17 in the Zenica music school in 1993?

18 A. I never received any such information and any such information was

19 never available to me. Had I had that, I would have known what to do.

20 Q. Were you aware at any point in time, sir, from the -- from your

21 appointment as legal officer to the end of 1993 about rumours concerning

22 mistreatment of persons being detained in the Zenica music school?

23 A. No. I knew of no rumours because it was not a part of my job

24 description, and I had not heard any rumours about anyone whatsoever

25 having been mistreated in any way.

Page 18900












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Page 18901

1 Q. Were you aware, sir, or did you in any way come across any

2 documents or information concerning any member of the 7th Muslim Mountain

3 Brigade who was investigated, charged, disciplined, or in any way

4 prosecuted with respect to alleged crimes that occurred in Vares in

5 November of 1993?

6 A. No. Not a single document of that nature ever reached me and I

7 have no knowledge of any proceedings having been brought against anyone

8 with regard to Vares.

9 Q. At the time, sir, upon your arrival at the 7th Muslim Brigade in

10 early July 1993, were there any records or documents pertaining to legal

11 matters or case files that you in any way reviewed with respect to cases

12 that had been conducted prior to your arrival?

13 A. No. Upon my arrival, I found not a single scrap of paper or any

14 information or any documents, nothing, in as far as the legal matters are

15 concerned. And as to the documentation of the military security services,

16 I had no access to that.

17 Q. You told us a few moments ago, sir, about the few occasions that

18 you had interactions with the district military court in Zenica. Do you

19 recall the specifics of any of the cases involving soldiers of the 7th

20 Muslim Mountain Brigade that you discussed with personnel from the

21 district military court in Zenica?

22 A. Yes. It was the members of the 7th Muslim Brigade. One report

23 was about theft committed by one of our members, and he was brought to

24 trial and he was sentenced. He actually got a prison sentence. And then

25 there were three more cases, again internal affairs, as it were, offences

Page 18902

1 against officers of the 7th Muslim Brigade by the end of 1993. But for

2 the most part it has nothing to do with any acts aimed at persons of

3 another ethnicity. We were talking about abuse of power or of position,

4 and in that respect, I remember that there were reports against three of

5 our members.

6 Q. Let me ask you, sir, about this theft case that you recall. Do

7 you recall any of the specifics about that theft? Where it occurred?

8 What was stolen? What kind of property?

9 A. He broke into the safe of our brigade, and it was the cashier, the

10 treasurer of the brigade, in fact, who stole some money.

11 Q. And so, sir, when you told us just a few moments ago "for the most

12 part it has nothing to do with any acts aimed at persons of another

13 ethnicity," are you telling us that you are not aware of any member of the

14 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade being prosecuted in the district military

15 court in Zenica for crimes against any civilians?

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence, please.

17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. I

18 think that the witness was commenting on those four cases only, if my

19 understanding is correct, the four cases mentioned by my learned friend as

20 well.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Mundis.


23 Q. Sir, are you aware of any cases that were prosecuted before the

24 district military court in Zenica where members of the 7th Muslim Mountain

25 Brigade were prosecuted for crimes committed against civilians or civilian

Page 18903

1 property in 1993?

2 A. No, I'm not aware of any such cases of any members having been

3 prosecuted for any such offences. I can say that I heard, but it was in

4 the year 2000, that at the cantonal court there were proceedings which had

5 been instituted against somebody from the security forces. I think his

6 name was Isic. I can't remember his first name, really, and I can't

7 remember what the offence is.

8 Q. Were you aware of any cases that were prosecuted before the

9 district military court in Travnik where members of the 7th Muslim

10 Mountain Brigade were prosecuted for crimes committed against civilians or

11 civilian property in 1993?

12 A. I'm not aware of a single case and I never spent any time at the

13 state Prosecution office in Travnik in the course of the war.

14 Q. Earlier this afternoon you were asked some questions about the

15 security service of the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, and you were shown a

16 document signed by Mr. Talic. Just so that we're clear, sir, was the

17 Military Police Company of the 7th Muslim Brigade under the direct control

18 of Mr. Talic, as the assistant commander for security of that brigade?

19 A. Yes, he was the assistant commander and he was in charge at the

20 security forces. So officers and the military police were accountable to

21 him.

22 Q. And you told us, sir, that Mr. Talic was also a lawyer by

23 profession. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. Earlier this afternoon my colleague from the Kubura Defence asked

Page 18904

1 you some questions about -- or you responded to some questions concerning

2 information about Mr. Asim Koricic. And at page 26, line 8, you informed

3 us that Mr. Koricic was on official leave at the time you arrived in the

4 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade in July 1993. Do you remember saying that,

5 sir?

6 A. That's the information I received, that Mr. Asim Koricic was on

7 official leave.

8 Q. Do you recall, sir, who provided you with that information, who

9 told you that or how you came to that conclusion?

10 A. I can't remember who exactly, but I asked around about who the

11 brigade commander was. And when I was told it was Asim Koricic, I asked

12 where he was and I was told that he was away.

13 Q. Okay. Did there later come a time when you were still with the

14 brigade that Mr. Koricic returned?

15 A. Mr. Koricic, I saw him once but he was no longer with the brigade.

16 Q. Sir, were you ever aware of any investigations or disciplinary

17 inquiries or prosecutions concerning Mr. Koricic with respect to his

18 absence from the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade in 1993?

19 A. No. I never asked for what reason he left and who approved that.

20 And as far as I know, there were no proceedings of any sort or perhaps I

21 just did not get that information.

22 Q. Sir, you told us that Mr. Kubura was appointed the commander of

23 the brigade in the beginning of August 1993. And my question, sir, is:

24 During the first few weeks that you were the legal officer with the 7th

25 Muslim Mountain Brigade from July 7th, 1993, until Mr. Kubura was formally

Page 18905

1 appointed the commander, to whom did you report in those first few days

2 and weeks you were with the brigade?

3 A. I was accountable to Mr. Amir Kubura.

4 Q. And during this -- these first few days and weeks, did you receive

5 direct orders and taskings from Mr. Kubura?

6 A. Everything having to do with legal matters -- well, my

7 instructions and orders came from Mr. Amir Kubura, and I complied with

8 them fully.

9 Q. And conversely, sir, you reported directly to Mr. Amir Kubura. Is

10 that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Can you tell us, sir, from 7 July 1993 through the end of 1993, a

13 rough approximation of how many meetings of the brigade you attended that

14 were chaired by Mr. Kubura?

15 A. Perhaps five to six times.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The Defence, please.

17 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. My

18 objection consists of the fact the witness never mentioned the fact that

19 Mr. Kubura was chairing any meetings.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, it has never been

21 mentioned, Mr. Mundis. Could you rephrase your question, perhaps.


23 Q. Sir, you told us earlier today in response to a question from the

24 Defence that you occasionally attended meetings of the brigade command.

25 Is that correct?

Page 18906

1 A. Yes, as a legal officer, but very rarely. And I said that when I

2 became assistant commander for legal affairs, then I attended such

3 meetings on a regular basis. But it was only as of 1994 when I

4 received -- when I was promoted to that job.

5 Q. And I take it, sir, that typically brigade command meetings would

6 be chaired by the commander of the brigade, in this case Mr. Kubura.

7 Would that be correct?

8 A. Yes. As of the day when he became commander, obviously he chaired

9 these meetings or else his deputy, Mr. Halil Brzina.

10 Q. And, sir, prior to the time Mr. Kubura was formally appointed

11 commander, did you attend any of the brigade command meetings in July

12 1993?

13 A. No. As the legal affairs officer, I was never within the command

14 of the brigade and only occasionally, according to needs, I would have

15 been invited to deal with one specific matter or something like that or

16 the legal side of things that I had to deal with.

17 Q. Sir, other than these command meetings that you rarely attended,

18 how frequently would you meet in your capacity as legal officer with

19 Mr. Kubura during 1993?

20 A. I rarely met Mr. Kubura, only if I had to see him because of

21 work-related matters, if there was any need for us to meet. Yes, if I was

22 carrying out any orders coming from him or something like that.

23 Q. Sir, your office was located in the command of the 7th Muslim

24 Mountain Brigade in the Bilmiste barracks in Zenica. Is that correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 18907

1 Q. And during the latter half of 1993 when you were the legal officer

2 for the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, were you ever involved personally in

3 any combat operations or did you remain in the barracks in Bilmiste

4 throughout those last months of 1993 or the second half of 1993?

5 A. For the most part, I did my job at the barracks. And according to

6 needs and when I was invited, I would go out in the field together with

7 the brigade. I did not personally participate in any combat activities.

8 I was there as technical support. And I've mentioned this before. I was

9 in charge with these disciplinary proceedings with regard to the members

10 of the brigade who perpetrated these offences in the field. I did the

11 same job that I've already described at the barracks, but in a slightly

12 different situation.

13 Q. And, sir, when you -- tell us about these disciplinary proceedings

14 with regard to members of the brigade. Can you elaborate a little bit on

15 what type of offences these disciplinary proceedings covered?

16 A. I've already said this, but I can repeat it. It was either the

17 fact that they left the brigade of their own accord or they were late

18 coming out into the field or refusing to obey orders from their superiors

19 or causing disturbances to the public law and order and other

20 infringements against rules and regulations.

21 Q. And these -- sir, these other infringements against rules and

22 regulations would be categorised as minor military offences, would they

23 not?

24 A. Well, individual crimes were qualified in these rules and

25 regulations, and then it was said, any other acts that would be harmful to

Page 18908

1 the reputation of the unit. And then there was a list of priorities, as

2 it were, telling you how serious these various infringements are, but not

3 all of them are explained in every single detail, of course.

4 Q. Were you personally involved, sir, in any of these disciplinary

5 proceedings involving crimes against the civilians or civilian property,

6 or were all of these disciplinary proceedings involving crimes against the

7 military or crimes against the state?

8 A. I apologise, but could you repeat that question, please. I

9 personally did not participate in what?

10 Q. Sir, let me -- let me rephrase the question. In your capacity as

11 the legal officer or the 7th Muslim Brigade, you were -- part of your

12 duties were conducting disciplinary proceedings. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. Did any of the military proceedings that you conducted or were

15 otherwise involved in as part of your official duties involve offences

16 committed against the civilian population or against civilian property?

17 A. No, not a single case concerned the sort of offences you have just

18 described.

19 Q. So all of the disciplinary proceedings that were conducted during

20 the time you were with the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade as the legal

21 officer involved what we might call crimes against the military or crimes

22 against the state. Would that be a fair summary?

23 A. No. It concerned disciplinary offences.

24 Q. Okay. During the time, sir, that you were the legal officer for

25 the 7th Muslim Mountain Brigade, did any of the battalions of that brigade

Page 18909

1 have legal officers or lawyers who were functioning in a legal capacity

2 within those battalions?

3 A. No. I was the only lawyer at the level of the brigade. But I

4 have also mentioned that Mr. Nesib Talic was involved in other duties as a

5 lawyer. In other battalions there -- the other battalions, they don't

6 have the positions for legal officer, with the exception of the military

7 security, who was not qualified to perform legal duties of any kind.

8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hasanagic.

9 MR. MUNDIS: The Prosecution has no further questions.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] It is now time for

11 re-examination.

12 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] No further questions,

13 Mr. President. Thank you.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well.

15 Questioned by the Court:

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, I have a few questions I

17 would like to put to you. You said that you were the only legal officer

18 in the 7th Muslim Brigade. We know that you were a revenue inspector. As

19 far as legal affairs are concerned, had you studied law in a way that were

20 appropriate for you to become a lawyer? Could you tell us whether you had

21 actually studied law.

22 A. Well, I had certain experience in the inland revenue office. This

23 involved carrying out administrative procedures, becoming involved in

24 disciplinary procedures, filing reports against people who owe tax. I had

25 to compile records on tax and tax returns, too. This is the sort of work

Page 18910












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13 English transcripts.













Page 18911

1 that I was involved in. It was possible for me to apply several laws,

2 various laws. And I would qualify certain acts as I deemed appropriate.

3 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you for that information.

4 You said that you assumed your position in the 7th Brigade after

5 two interviews, one with someone whom you knew, since you had played

6 handball together. And then you mentioned the Chief of Staff, Mr. Kubura.

7 But you said that you arrived with your family in Zenica on the 1st of

8 January, 1993. Could you tell us, what did you do from the 1st of

9 January, 1993, until the 7th of July. During this six-month period, what

10 did you do?

11 A. During those six months, I immediately reported to the Territorial

12 Defence Staff. I had to do that because I had received authorisation from

13 the previous commander, commander Burbasic from Gorazde. He had

14 authorised my leave. And when I arrived in Zenica, I wanted to remain a

15 member of the army. As a result, I tried to find out how I could join up,

16 how I could join a unit of any kind. However, given my background --

17 well, they had no need for someone with my background. And they also said

18 that they didn't have a sufficient amount of weapons to engage me in some

19 other capacity. I reported to them because all the men who were not

20 engaged were mobilised by force; I didn't want this to happen to me. And

21 that is why I was on the records of the Territorial Defence Staff up until

22 the time that I was engaged. That's the only break I had in the course of

23 the war.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] According to what we have heard

25 from a number of witnesses, the Territorial Defence ceased to function

Page 18912

1 when the ABiH, the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, was established.

2 According to all the evidence we have heard, as of January 1993 the ABiH

3 was operational. How can you explain the fact that you remained within

4 the Territorial Defence, given that the army was already operational? The

5 3rd Corps had been established. There were units present in the Zenica

6 area; there was the 7th Muslim Brigade. Could you clarify your status.

7 And all the more, since you know that a state of war had been declared and

8 everyone had been mobilised. How was it possible for you to remain in a

9 borderline situation from January to July? How is it possible for you not

10 to become a soldier, or rather how was it possible for you to remain in

11 this undefined situation?

12 A. I reported to the Territorial Defence Municipal Staff where

13 records were kept on all men liable for military service. My unit of

14 origin wasn't present in the area, and because the records were not quite

15 correct and it was not possible for me to return to my original unit, I

16 asked to join a unit of any kind. There were a lot of men liable for

17 military service who had not been mobilised at the time, and this

18 situation continued throughout the war. Men tried to avoid serving in the

19 army, and that was never my intention.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] In response to a question put to

21 you by the Defence, you said that you arrived in Zenica, if I understood

22 this correctly, after having travelled for days and days on foot. You

23 arrived in Zenica with your wife and two children. When you arrived in

24 Zenica, where did you stay and how did you survive six months, since it

25 seems that you had no resources? Where did you live and how did you feed

Page 18913

1 your family for this six-month period?

2 A. Initially I lived with my wife's aunt. They helped us to start

3 with. We stayed there for a few days, and then through friends of theirs

4 we were able to use a small studio flat near the Zenica hospital. We

5 lived off this aid in the beginning because a relative of my wife's aunt

6 was one of the directors in the ironworks. He was a quite prosperous man.

7 They provided us with food and accommodation and also I had quite a lot of

8 friends from the Celik handball club in Zenica. And when they found out

9 that I was in Zenica, they helped me. They provided me with food, mostly

10 flour, and I'm very grateful to them for that. Unlike all other refugees

11 and expelled persons, we were registered with the Red Cross and we would

12 receive a quarter of a loaf of bread per family member every day and a

13 little flour. This is how I lived and survived, together with my family,

14 up until the time that I joined the 7th Brigade. And even then, I lived

15 with 5 kilos of flour, a litre of oil, and a little cigarettes. This is

16 something -- this is a packet I would receive once a month. And my family

17 helped me. My wife's aunt, whose surname is Boskic [phoen], helped me

18 then as well.

19 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you. You have answered my

20 question. And my last question: When you joined the 7th Brigade in July,

21 did you hear about someone called Emir Karalic? Does the name Karalic

22 mean anything to you.

23 A. Yes, I heard about Emir Karalic. I never met him. I know that

24 they called him the "brigade Emir," "the Emir of the brigade." I never

25 knew what that meant nor did I know what sort of authority he had.

Page 18914

1 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] You said that you had an office

2 that was in the vicinity of the headquarters of Mr. Kubura. And later

3 when Mr. Kubura became the commander of the 7th Brigade, you had an office

4 that was not far away. As far as you know, Emir Karalic, did he have an

5 office?

6 A. Emir Karalic never had an office on the grounds of the barracks,

7 not from the time that I arrived there. As for the situation prior to my

8 arrival, I don't know what it was. But if he had had such an office, I

9 think I would have been aware of the fact.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 I give the floor to the Prosecution now.

12 MR. MUNDIS: Thank you, Mr. President. No further questions.

13 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Defence counsel.

14 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have a couple of

15 questions.

16 Further cross-examination by Ms. Residovic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] The Presiding Judge asked you about your arrival

18 in Zenica and reporting to the Territorial Defence Staff. Would it be

19 correct to say that in 1993 in Zenica, in addition to the brigades there

20 was the Territorial Staff, which was an integral part of the Army of

21 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And Jasmin Saric was the commander of the Municipal Staff at that

24 time?

25 A. Yes.

Page 18915

1 Q. So when you reported to the territorial defence municipal staff

2 you believed that you reported to one of the units that was in fact part

3 of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina and that you had complied with the

4 duties when you left Gorazde. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, that's correct. I thought that it was my duty to place

6 myself at the disposal of any of the units belonging to the Territorial

7 Defence.

8 Q. However, in response to a question by the Presiding Judge you said

9 that you were on the records but that there was no work for you in the

10 Municipal Staff nor was there a sufficient amount of weapons for you to be

11 engaged. Is that what you said? Have I understood you correctly?

12 A. Yes, that's what I said. I tried to join the 314th Brigade at the

13 time as a lawyer; however, that position had been filled a day before I

14 arrived by a lawyer.

15 Q. If I have understood you correctly, you have also said that there

16 were quite a few people who were on the records but who had in fact not

17 been engaged because weapons were lacking or there were no tasks that they

18 could carry out at the time. Is that correct?

19 A. Well, since it was impossible to have adequate regards and since

20 there were a lot of changes in the corps, as far as the resources and men

21 are concerned it was impossible to engage everyone on record in such a

22 brief period of time because very often the personnel services were not

23 sufficiently trained and they could not process all the information.

24 Q. I have one more question, if I have understood the situation you

25 were in correctly. When you arrived in Zenica -- when you arrived in

Page 18916

1 Zenica you -- I apologise. You were on the records but you were not under

2 anyone's command and control, to put it in this way. You weren't engaged

3 in a unit. Is that correct?

4 A. Yes, that's correct. I wasn't engaged.

5 Q. You were waiting either for the defence secretariat to call you

6 and to assign you to a unit or to find a unit you could join on your

7 initiative. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And finally, there is a question that you did not answer, a

10 question put to you by the Presiding Judge at the beginning, and to ensure

11 that we have all the relevant information on your educational background,

12 could you please tell us whether you have graduated from a school of law

13 and if so where?

14 A. Yes, I graduated from the school of law in Sarajevo.

15 Q. Thank you very much.

16 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no further

17 questions.

18 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] The other Defence team.

19 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. We

20 have no questions.

21 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Sir, this concludes your

22 testimony. I would like to thank you on behalf of the Judges for having

23 come to The Hague, as demanded by Brigadier Kubura. You have answered all

24 the questions put to you, and I wish you a safe trip home and all the best

25 in your professional career. I will now ask the usher to escort you out

Page 18917

1 of the courtroom.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

3 [The witness withdrew]

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] We have a few more minutes

5 before the break, but it seems that this pause might be transformed into

6 an adjournment. Is there anything that the Prosecution would like to

7 comment on? No. In that case, Defence counsel would like to tender some

8 documents into evidence. You may take the floor.

9 MR. IBRISIMOVIC: [Interpretation] You are quite right,

10 Mr. President. There are two documents. One is dated the 8th of

11 September and the other dated the 11th of September, 1993 --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, the 11th of November, 1993, and the

13 first document is the 8th of September, 1993.

14 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Are there any objections?

15 MS. RESIDOVIC: [Interpretation] No objections, Mr. President.

16 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Very well. I thought that there

17 was an implicit agreement.

18 The Prosecution?

19 MR. MUNDIS: No objections, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] No objections.

21 Madam Registrar, could we have two numbers for these two

22 documents.

23 THE REGISTRAR: Yeah, Your Honour, it will be DK59 and DK60.

24 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Madam Registrar, could you tell

25 us which document corresponds to DK59 and which one corresponds to DK60.

Page 18918

1 Could we have the dates of the documents?

2 THE REGISTRAR: DK59 will be dated on the 11th of November, 1993,

3 and DK60 will be the document dated on the 8th of September, 1993.

4 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Registrar.

5 Mr. Bourgon.

6 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Could I

7 have a number, an exhibit number for the letter that was filed at the

8 beginning of the hearing, Mr. President?

9 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Mr. Mundis, Defence counsel

10 would like an exhibit number for the letter dated the 9th of May, 2005,

11 addressed -- sent by the general director of the agency for security and

12 intelligence. What is your position?

13 MR. MUNDIS: Mr. President, the Prosecution's view would be that

14 it's not actually an exhibit in the sense of being evidence; it's an

15 addendum, if you will, to the Hadzihasanovic response to the Prosecution's

16 application to re-open. And we would -- we would have no objection to it

17 being filed as any other pleading or annex or attachment or corrigendum to

18 a pleading, but our position is this is not evidence and subsequently

19 should not be given an exhibit number.

20 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. Bourgon. Stricto sensu

21 in terms of law, this is not an exhibit from the Defence; it's in fact an

22 annex to your response to the Prosecution's motion. But in any event this

23 document will be annexed unless you really insist on having an DH2000 and

24 something.

25 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President. Our

Page 18919

1 initial position was to file it as an annex to our response, but we would

2 like this letter to be officially included in the file, either as an annex

3 to our response or as an additional piece of evidence, as this is a

4 document that could be used when presenting our arguments on Thursday.

5 But we really don't mind, Mr. President

6 [Trial Chamber confers]

7 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Having deliberated, the Chamber

8 would rather consider this document to be an annex.

9 MR. BOURGON: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE ANTONETTI: [Interpretation] Is there anything else any of

11 the parties would like to comment on any other issues to be raised? If

12 not, we will see each other again on Thursday in the morning. As there is

13 a courtroom available, the hearing will be held at 9.00 in the morning on

14 Thursday. If that doesn't cause any problems, in that case I invite

15 everyone to return for the hearing at 9.00 on Thursday.

16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.30 p.m.,

17 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of

18 May, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.