1 Wednesday, 9 February 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please., Mr. Court Deputy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
9 Before we are going to hear the witness, are there any matters
10 that the parties would like to raise?
11 Yes, Mr. Morrissey.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Your Honour, I've just got one matter to
13 raise which arose out of yesterday.
14 Yesterday Mr. -- the witness Salko Gusic indicated in open court
15 once in an unresponsive answer to a question and the other time in a -- at
16 a general invitation by Your Honour at the end of his evidence that there
17 had been some generally expressed but serious, if it were -- had the least
18 bit of truth about it, misdemeanour by our -- our team member and likely
19 future witness, Asim Dzambasovic.
20 Now, that allegation, we appreciate of course that the Prosecutor
21 would not have known it was going to be made and we -- we don't make any
22 allegation against the Prosecutor at all in this regard. She's not here,
23 but I just want it to be clear that this is a general policy comment.
24 That was a hurtful and damaging comment to people, in particular the
25 investigators, who were not able to defend themselves from it in public at
1 the moment. They're simply here in court.
2 It was, I take it, entirely irrelevant to the case because
3 otherwise the Prosecutor would have sought leave to lead it in evidence in
4 the proper and normal way. It's a matter which is of grave concern to us,
5 that allegations like that are going to be made.
6 Mr. Dzambasovic has been called to this Tribunal by the
7 Prosecution in the past as a witness, and we take very seriously any
8 allegation of this nature. But for the purpose -- the reason I trouble
9 Your Honour with it now is because it's a matter that concerns me that is
10 going to blow the length of the trial out, that the Defence would be
11 concerned to deal with issues like this that are collateral issues and
12 have nothing to do with the trial. It's my intention not to respond to
13 those sort of attacks, and it's my intention not no deal with them because
14 they have nothing to do with Mr. Halilovic. But because Mr. Dzambasovic
15 has been announced in open court that it's likely he'll be a witness and
16 because he is known to be a team member and a person who has assisted in
17 the preparation of the case here, it's a matter that impacts. And I don't
18 want the Court to think that merely because I'm not seeking an immediate
19 evidentiary hearing on these allegations that we accept them. Frankly,
20 that is the reverse of the position. We reject them, and we would want to
21 be putting Mr. Mr. Dzambasovic forward as a person of honour and integrity
22 when the time comes.
23 In the meantime, what I would ask generally, both of the
24 Prosecution and of the Court, is that all efforts are made to keep the
25 evidence that's led relevant to the case itself and that it does not stray
1 off. It would be improper of me at this stage to launch any attack on
2 Mr. Gusic because he's not here, and I don't propose to say anything
3 negative or positive about him and whatever reasons he may have had for
4 saying what he did. Although, I point out that in relation to the
5 question I asked, it was quite plainly a clearly unresponsive answer.
6 But leaving aside what he says and the substance of it, I just
7 don't want to be dealing and I don't want the Court to be dealing with
8 bushfires and disasters which are not relevant to the case.
9 Could I therefore put on record that the Defence does not accept
10 what's -- what is -- what was advanced. Could I put on record that we're
11 not proposing to deal with it as it arises and that we're going to deal
12 with issues that relate only to Mr. Halilovic -- and not -- not sideline
13 ones. We invite the Prosecution to do all they can to ensure that the
14 evidence that's led in this court is relevant only to the charges, and I
15 humbly ask the Court to have regard to what I've said, bearing in mind
16 that on any view - the Prosecution's and the Defence's - the controversies
17 in this case have been fought out in the press in Bosnia for a long time
18 and battle lines have been well and truly drawn. So you might expect
19 comments to be made, sometimes possibly, imaginably, even in good faith.
20 And what I ask is that control be exercised over that sort of thing
21 without prejudice to the truth or otherwise of anything that is said at
22 this stage.
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much for your statement, but in
24 the whole, as for yesterday's witness, I believe that we did pretty well,
25 because as I said, Mr. Gusic is a very important witness.
1 I'll give the parties enough time to do the direct and the
2 cross-examination, and on the whole I believe that the Prosecution's
3 direct examination was very relevant and very concise. As for the
4 statement made by the witness at the last minute, during the testimony
5 it's very difficult for us to know what the witness is going to say during
6 his testimony. So since that piece of the evidence was not directly
7 relevant to your client -- unless in the future we find some relevance of
8 that piece of the evidence, we'll not rely on that piece of the evidence
9 in the process of evaluating the evidence we received, and your statement
10 has been fully recorded in the record. And I hope in the future if you
11 found such kind of statements made by anyone which is not relevant to this
12 case in your view, you may stand up and voice your objections.
13 Thank you very much.
14 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: So having said that, could we have the witness,
17 [Witness testified via videolink]
18 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, witness.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Would you please make the solemn
21 declaration in accordance with the paper Ms. Usher is showing to you.
22 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] [Inaudible].
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to make a statement?
24 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Could we have it in B/C/S, please.
25 Can you please instruct her to --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I take an oath that I will say all
2 the words as I should.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Thank you very much.
4 Mr. Re, are you ready for your direct examination?
5 MR. RE: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.
7 WITNESS: KATICA MILETIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examined by Mr. Re:
10 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Miletic.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Is your name Katica Miletic?
13 A. Kata Miletic. You can also say Katica. My full name is Kata
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MR. RE:
17 Q. Is your date of birth the 13th of February, 1937?
18 A. Yes, it is. That's true.
19 Q. And what is your occupation?
20 A. I am now at home. I worked in a school.
21 MR. RE: [Previous translation continues] ...
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Are there any problem?
23 MR. RE: Yes. I've plugged in as -- as instructed to the -- to
24 the metal white box and I've got B/C/S on two channels. Perhaps I
25 could --
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes. In the earphone we hear the two languages
3 Well, witness, I'm sorry that we have some technical problems.
4 MR. RE: I'll try this one.
5 JUDGE LIU: Can you say something?
6 MR. RE: It's not seeing; it's hearing, Your Honour. I was
7 getting two channels of B/C/S on the white box.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
9 MR. RE: And I didn't dare switch to the other one for fear of
10 losing it.
11 [Technical difficulty]
12 MR. RE: There is a technical problem with one box, but I'll try
13 and continue with this one and see how we go.
14 JUDGE LIU: But we still have the B/C/S in our earphones.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Can you hear the English now? Can you hear me?
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
17 Yes, Mr. Re, can you try it again.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Mrs. Miletic, you just told us that you're working at -- you're
20 at home. Are you a pensioner?
21 A. Yes, I am.
22 Q. Did you live in Grabovica until 1993?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. How long did you live in Grabovica for?
25 A. I was born in Grabovica. I never changed my place of residence
1 until 1993. I lived there where I was born.
2 JUDGE LIU: Shall we continue?
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. Who did you live in Grabovica with until 1993?
5 A. I lived on my own. But I had a brother and a sister-in-law in
6 the neighbourhood, so we lived next to each other. I had my own house.
7 Q. What was your brother -- what were your brother and
8 sister-in-law's names?
9 A. Pero and Ruza.
10 Q. What is their family name?
11 A. Miletic.
12 Q. What about Ilka Miletic? Was Ilka Miletic a relative of yours?
13 A. Yes, she is. She was, yes.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Re, you may continue, because, you know,
15 only if you say something that they could test the system is okay or not,
16 and that piece of the evidence is just the background of the witness, is
17 not that essentially important. So I believe the Defence will agree that
18 we'll proceed.
19 MR. RE: May it please Your Honour.
20 Q. Mrs. Miletic, Milka Miletic, a relative, was she a cousin of
22 A. Yes. Yes, that's right.
23 Q. What about Ljubija -- sorry, Ljubica Mandic and Andrija Mandic?
24 Are they related to you?
25 A. I know them. Ljubica was related to me, but Andrija wasn't. I
1 knew them.
2 Q. What about Ivan Mandic? Who's he?
3 A. That's Ljubica's brother-in-law.
4 Q. Were you in Grabovica in May 1993 when soldiers came to the
6 A. Yes. Yes, I was.
7 Q. To which army did these soldiers belong?
8 A. From Sarajevo. The Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
9 Q. How did you know that they were from the Army of Bosnia and
11 A. I know that because they wore military uniforms. Zuka was there,
12 general and so on.
13 Q. Where was Zuka from?
14 A. I don't know. Probably from Sarajevo. But I have no idea. I
15 just heard rumours about that.
16 Q. Were you living in Grabovica in September 1993?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What happened in early September 1993 in relation to soldiers?
19 A. Between the 8th and the 9th, or just before the 8th, many more
20 soldiers came. And between the 8th and 9th, there was a massacre in
21 Grabovica and 33 Croats were killed.
22 Q. When did you see -- first see the soldiers in September 1993?
23 I'm sorry, I withdraw that.
24 When did you see the -- first see the many more soldiers who came
25 in September 1993?
1 A. I couldn't tell you the exact date. It was about a week before
2 the massacre. About a week before the night between the 8th and the 9th.
3 But I can't tell you the precise date. I don't want to lie.
4 Q. What were these soldiers wearing, these new soldiers?
5 A. Multicoloured military clothes.
6 Q. Do you remember any military insignia on their clothes?
7 A. They did have some kind of insignia, but I didn't really look at
8 the insignia. I didn't pay attention to them.
9 Q. Did any of these soldiers stay in the village or were
10 accommodated in the village of Grabovica?
11 A. Yes, on the right bank, and there were checkpoints. They arrived
12 on the right bank about a week before the massacre. We lived on the left
14 Q. Now, you know there were houses on the right bank of Grabovica.
15 Were the soldiers staying in those houses or somewhere else?
16 A. There were huts, sheds. There were houses. There were all kinds
17 of buildings there.
18 Q. And where were the soldiers staying?
19 A. In huts or in houses. There were huts there belonging to the
20 electric plant.
21 Q. Were these soldiers from the same army - that's the ABiH - as the
22 soldiers who came in May 1993?
23 A. The same ones who took Grabovica in May. They were the same
24 people. But I can't really say. I'm not really that well informed.
25 Q. You mentioned the name of Zuka before as the -- I think you said
1 general in charge of the soldiers who were there from May 1993. Do you
2 know or did you hear anything about whether Zuka had anything to do with
3 the soldiers who were there in -- the new soldiers who were there in
4 September 1993?
5 A. I don't know if he was there in 1993. I don't know who was
6 connected to whom. I can't know that.
7 Q. Did you see any difference between the behaviour of the troops
8 who -- the soldiers who came in May 1993 in relation to the civilians in
9 Grabovica and the behaviour of those who came in September 1993 in
10 relation to the civilians in Grabovica?
11 A. I don't know. There weren't any changes there. I could see
12 something was going on. There were more soldiers. But I don't know about
13 any other changes.
14 Q. Where were you on the 8th of September, 1993?
15 A. At my house.
16 Q. What were the soldiers doing on that day? What did you see the
17 soldiers or hear the soldiers doing?
18 A. They told us to go. We were on the left bank, and we set out
19 towards Jablanica. We passed through alive. We were in the museum for
20 six months, until we were exchanged. This was after six months.
21 Q. On the 8th of September, you were at your house and soldiers told
22 you that you had to go. That --
23 A. Yes. On the 9th, we came.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. In the morning. On the 9th, in the morning. We were at home on
1 the 8th. Did you understand me?
2 Q. Yes, I understand. I just -- I want to ask you or clarify what
3 happened or what you saw or heard in Grabovica on the 8th of September;
4 that's the day before you left the village. You said there were some
5 soldiers who told you that you had to go. Where did the soldiers --
6 MR. MORRISSEY: Just a moment. Excuse me. I object to that.
7 There's a -- sorry, could the witness just excuse me for one moment while
8 I make the objection. Pardon me.
9 The objection is that that was -- there was a leading proposition
10 in there about what was said on the 8th. Now, the witness hasn't agreed
11 to that, and I object to it being put to the witness that she was told
12 anything by soldiers on the 8th.
13 MR. RE: I'd just point my friend -- my learned friend to the
14 transcript at page -- point 17: What did the soldiers -- see the soldiers
15 or hear them doing? Answer: They told us to go. I was just leading from
16 that. She said, "They told us to go."
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour. It's quite plain, it's obvious
18 from the context of that that she was giving an answer that was not
19 limited to the 8th. She talked about events six months later in that
21 Now, Your Honour, my friend is entitled to lead the evidence if
22 it's the evidence. But he should ask the witness and not tell her that
23 she was told anything on the 8th, because that's a matter of potential
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think the witness told us that, you know, she
1 was asked to go away at that time, but I see that this question is a
2 compound question.
3 Maybe, Mr. Re, you could break it. Ask her one question after
4 another and build up your case step by step.
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. Mrs. Miletic, did the soldiers who told you to go tell you on
7 the 8th or at the 9th? These were the soldiers from the checkpoint.
8 A. On the 9th, all the soldiers were at the checkpoint. I don't
9 know which ones they were. On the 9th, to be clear, we left our homes.
10 On the 9th we set off from our houses. On the 9th of September.
11 Q. You set out on the 9th. Did the soldiers at the checkpoint tell
12 you that you had to go on the 8th or the 9th?
13 A. On the 9th. On the 9th.
14 Q. The soldiers in the village on the 8th and the 9th, were they
16 A. Yes. Every soldier has a -- a rifle on his shoulder; otherwise,
17 they wouldn't be a soldier without a weapon.
18 Q. Did you hear or see any soldiers using their weapons on the 8th;
19 that's the day before you left? Did you hear any shooting?
20 A. I don't know. These were combat operations. You could always
21 hear shooting. I don't know who was shooting. It's war. It doesn't
22 really matter.
23 Q. All right. Just to clarify your last answer. I'm asking you
24 about the 8th of September, when you were at home. Do you remember
25 hearing any shooting - and I'm talking about from the village of
1 Grabovica - either on your side of the river or the other side?
2 A. Yes, I did. From the other side, yes, you could hear it.
3 Q. Was it in the day or in the night or both?
4 A. You could hear it by day and by night.
5 Q. Can you describe its length and intensity? For example, was it
6 an occasional shot, shooting all day, a burst here and there, or what?
7 A. Occasionally. Sometimes you could hear a rifle shot.
8 Occasionally. I can say that quite clearly, that it was occasional.
9 Q. What other sounds could you hear from the soldiers, apart from
10 the shooting across the river on the 8th of September?
11 A. They were singing. At night you could hear singing. That's all
12 I heard. I could hear nothing else. That the soldiers were singing.
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. You said you heard the soldiers singing. Did you hear -- could
16 you hear other people, people apart from the soldiers, making noises on
17 the night of the 8th of September?
18 A. No, I didn't. I didn't really hear anything. I couldn't really
19 differentiate between the sounds, what they were saying, what this noise
20 was. I don't know who was doing what. I have no idea.
21 Q. And did you stay in your house or stay in that house on night of
22 the 8th of September?
23 A. Yes, until the morning of the 9th. In the morning of the 9th, we
24 left our homes at 1500 hours.
25 Q. Before leaving your home at about 1500 hours, what did you do
1 during the day in the village? Were you at home? Did you go somewhere?
2 Did you see anyone?
3 A. I went to see my sister. I could see that something was
4 uncomfortable, something was wrong, so I went to see what was going on.
5 And then I went back home, and then we set off for Jablanica on the road.
6 Q. How far is your sister's house from where you were staying?
7 A. About 900 metres. Something like that.
8 Q. And your sister, is that Ljubica?
9 A. [No interpretation].
10 Q. I'm sorry, your sister, was that the sister Ljubica you referred
11 to earlier?
12 A. Yes. Yes, that's my sister. Yes.
13 Q. You told us you heard shooting on the day and night before.
14 That's on the 8th of September. Did you hear or see the soldiers shooting
15 in the morning of the 9th of September?
16 A. Yes. Yes, there was occasional shooting.
17 Q. Was that on the same side of the river you were on or the other
18 side of the river?
19 A. This was on the right bank. We were on the left side and the
20 shooting was on the right side of the river.
21 Q. In what direction was the -- what direction was the fire directed
22 or the shooting directed?
23 A. I really don't know. I don't know where the shooting was. I
24 didn't even dare look. I have no idea. I would run into the house. I
25 don't know anything.
1 Q. Did you hear anything to suggest there were -- there was firing
2 overhead of your house?
3 A. I don't know whether it was over the houses. One bullet was
4 fired above the house, but I don't know about the other things. I really
5 didn't hear anything.
6 Q. The bullet that was fired over your house, was that in the
7 morning or the afternoon?
8 A. It was in the morning, around 9.00, on the 9th.
9 Q. You went and visited your sister Ljubica. Did you also visit
10 Ilka Miletic, your cousin, on the 9th of September?
11 A. Yes, I did. I went to see my sister at about 10.00, and I could
12 see she's not around the river. Then I saw Ilka. Her close -- house is
13 close by. And then I saw that she was okay, and then I went home.
14 Q. Was your brother's wife at home when you arrived back?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What was she doing?
17 A. She was preparing to leave, she and my brother. And I
18 said, "What is going on?" And she said, "Well, these refugees told us to
19 go if you mean to stay alive."
20 Q. You've described soldiers shooting on the other side of the
21 river. Did any soldiers come near your house when you were there, before
22 you left?
23 A. Yes. Yes, they did. They came to the house when we were
24 leaving. Yes, they did come.
25 Q. Were these soldiers from the same army - that's the ABiH - as the
1 soldiers from the other side of the river?
2 A. Yes. Yes, exactly. The Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
3 Q. What did the soldiers say to you?
4 A. Well, to go. To go, to leave.
5 Q. Did they tell you why you had to leave?
6 A. They didn't say anything about why we should leave. Just told us
7 to leave.
8 Q. And were these soldiers like the other soldiers you saw, armed?
9 A. They were all armed. All of them.
10 Q. About how many soldiers came to your house?
11 A. A large number of them, but I don't know the exact number. I
12 cannot lie to you. I don't -- I'm not a person to do that.
13 Q. What could you tell about where they were from from their
15 A. They were from Sarajevo, but I don't know where they were from.
16 But the soldiers were from Sarajevo.
17 Q. Did you give them anything?
18 A. They took what was there. They did and we did too. They took
19 whatever they needed.
20 Q. Can you just elaborate on that a bit more. What did the soldiers
21 do when they came -- came to your house? You said they told you to go,
22 but what else did they do?
23 A. They were looking through things, searching through the house. I
24 don't know what to say. They were looking for something. They were
25 rummaging through the house. I don't know what they were looking for.
1 And then we left.
2 Q. A few moments ago I asked you whether you gave them anything, and
3 you said, "They took what was there. They took whatever they needed."
4 What I'm asking you is: Did you give them anything --
5 A. Whatever they needed. Yes, I did. I had some money. It wasn't
6 a lot of money. I gave it to them and we left.
7 Q. Approximately how much money was it you gave them?
8 A. 500 German marks.
9 Q. You said, "We left." Who was "we"?
10 A. My brother, my sister-in-law, and I, the three of us.
11 Q. What did you have with you? Were you carrying anything?
12 A. Yes. Coats, jackets, a bag, shoes and so on. A few things, some
13 underwear and so on.
14 Q. And did you leave on foot?
15 A. Yes, we did.
16 Q. Where did you go?
17 A. We took the main road towards Jablanica.
18 Q. Did you have to pass Ilka Miletic's house to get there?
19 A. Yes, we did.
20 Q. Did you see Ilka at her house when you went past, as you were
21 leaving the village?
22 A. No, we didn't.
23 Q. Were there other people around her house when you went past it or
24 in the vicinity of her house when you went past it?
25 A. Yes. Yes, there was some refugees there, soldiers as well. But
1 I don't know exactly who was there, but yes, there were people there.
2 Q. And what were they doing, these people, these refugees and
4 A. I don't know. They were just sitting there talking. We passed
5 by along the road on our way towards Jablanica. And there were also some
6 other people there. There was some recording. There was a camera there
7 or something. I don't know.
8 Q. Do you mean a video? Mrs. Miletic, do you mean a video camera?
9 You said there was a camera and some recording. Are you referring to a
10 video camera?
11 A. I beg your pardon? Yes, probably. I don't know what it was.
12 They were recording from a small TAM truck, but I don't know what they
13 were doing. They were recording something on the right side. There was a
14 small TAM truck there.
15 Q. By "they," are you referring to the soldiers or the refugees?
16 A. Soldiers. They were soldiers. No, not the refugees. These were
18 Q. The small TAM truck, did you notice anything about its number
19 plates or where they were from?
20 A. The registration plates were from Sarajevo, Sarajevo registration
21 plates. I can tell you that, but I can't tell you anything else about the
22 vehicle. But it had Sarajevo registration plates.
23 Q. And where did you walk to?
24 A. Along the main road that goes from Grabovica, Mostar, Jablanica.
25 We were going towards Jablanica.
1 Q. And what did you see as you walked towards Jablanica?
2 A. When we were a distance away from the village, I don't know
3 where, but that's where the dam is; that's where we saw Ilka's dead body,
4 this -- Miletic, but we didn't really dare look at it too closely. Ivan
5 Mandic also we passed and went to Jablanica.
6 [Prosecution counsel confer]
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. You said you saw Ilka's dead -- Ilka Miletic's dead body and you
9 said you also saw Ivan Mandic. Was Ivan Mandic alive or dead when you saw
11 A. He was dead. Both of them were dead.
12 Q. Where were the bodies in relation to each other? How close or
13 far apart were they?
14 A. I didn't really notice that. They were just lying beside the
15 road. But I don't know how far apart they were. I really don't know. We
16 were in danger, so I really don't know. They were together, but I don't
17 know how far apart the bodies were. I don't know.
18 Q. You said you didn't dare look at it too closely. Do you mean you
19 just kept on walking to Jablanica?
20 A. Yes, we did.
21 Q. And did you walk all the way to Jablanica?
22 A. Yes, up to Donja Jablanica. Then a car stopped for us and picked
23 us up and we got in and we were driven to Jablanica.
24 Q. Now, Ilka Miletic and Ivan Mandic, were either of those people
25 soldiers or were they both civilians?
1 A. They were both civilians. He was an elderly man suffering from
2 asthma. She was an elderly woman, quite -- older. She lived by herself.
3 She didn't have anyone. She was not married. They were both elderly and
4 not in good health. They didn't have any weapons or anything like that.
5 Q. Were either of them taking part in combat activities, to your
7 A. No. No. She was born in 1927. There's no way that they could
8 have been in combat. No.
9 MR. RE: I want to show the witness a photograph which is
10 Exhibit -- MFI162, 04020972. I'm just not sure how we can show the
11 witness and get her to mark on it if it's going to be broadcast on the
12 screen. We'll have to do some scribing, I think. It's in Sanction at the
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm afraid that it can't be done through the
16 videolink, to ask -- I mean to ask the witness to mark on that photograph.
17 MR. RE: Can a photo be placed on the ELMO and the witness be
18 asked to point on the screen in Sarajevo?
19 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection to that, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. Mrs. Miletic, I'm putting a photograph on the screen, and I want
23 you to have a look at it. I'm going to ask you to point out things. And
24 point -- point to things on this particular photo with a pen or some other
25 pointy object.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you see the photograph?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Can you recognise it as a photograph -- an overhead photograph
5 of -- sorry, of Grabovica?
6 A. This is my own village.
7 Q. All right. I want you to point to where your -- can you see your
8 house on that photograph?
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, would you just excuse me one moment,
10 please. We have the photograph up on the screen, but we don't have a
11 pointer being shown at this stage. I'm not sure if we're seeing what the
12 witness is seeing or if we're seeing a view from -- live from her viewing
14 JUDGE LIU: You're much luckier than I am because I didn't see
15 the picture on the screen.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, it's excellent.
17 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Excuse me, Your Honour. But it's
18 impossible for the witness to point to any location on the map due to how
19 we're situated here in Sarajevo. The screen is away from the witness, so
20 we -- it's difficult for her to be able to point.
21 If there is a picture here that we could get perhaps with one of
22 the lawyers being --
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Mr. Re, would you please ask the witness to
24 point to that picture again. We'll see whether we can see it or not.
25 MR. RE:
1 Q. Mrs. Miletic, can you see your house on that photograph?
2 A. Yes, I can see it. I can see all the houses. Yesterday I told
3 the man in the hotel. I showed him all the houses and who was killed. I
4 don't know if there's any use in saying it again. I showed it. I pointed
5 it out to him with a pencil, that lawyer.
6 Q. Would you have a copy of that photograph there with you?
7 A. No. It's with the lawyer in the hotel. That's my village.
8 Q. All right. Maybe you can describe it for us. If you look at the
9 photograph, the river goes through the middle of the -- the photograph.
10 Is your house on the top side of the photograph on the screen?
11 A. No. My house is at the beginning, and Ilka's house is near the
12 top there, Ilka Miletic, and the others and Ljubica's. And mine is down
13 here at the beginning of the village. I can see them all. Theirs are up
14 there, about 900 metres away from my house.
15 Q. All right. If you divide the screen into four, there's a top
16 left, top right, bottom left, and bottom right. I want you to -- I want
17 you to imagine that. Where is your -- where is the house you were staying
18 in in September 1993? Is it in the bottom left of the screen or bottom
19 right of the screen?
20 A. It's in the lower left-hand corner of the screen.
21 Q. All right. When you walked towards Jablanica, can you tell us in
22 relation to the photo, did you walk towards the left or the right of the
23 photo? That's towards the dam, which is on the right, or down the river,
24 which is on the left?
25 A. We went along the river, along the main road on the left bank.
1 There's only one right direction. You can see it on the screen.
2 Q. Is that towards the dam or away from the dam? Which way did you
3 walk? To the left or to the right as you look at this --
4 A. Towards the dam, upstream. We went along the left bank toward
5 the dam. That's the main road leading to Jablanica and then on to
6 Sarajevo. It's on the left bank.
7 Q. All right. And that's the road you can -- is that the road you
8 can see which is just next to the river, going upstream towards the dam?
9 Is that the road you took?
10 A. Yes, it is. You can see it on the screen. Yes, it is.
11 Q. Now, on the screen, in about the very middle on the left bank you
12 can see what looks like a large sandbank as the river bends towards the
13 dam. Can you just look at that area.
14 A. Yes, I can see it.
15 Q. Okay. Now, I just want you to -- look at the -- look at the --
16 look at the map -- look at the screen and tell the Trial Chamber where it
17 was you saw the two bodies, Ilka Miletic and Ivan Mandic.
18 A. When you pass by this big embankment - or what can I call it -
19 there's Ilka's house that's marked on the screen now, and then there are a
20 few metres further to go to the dam, where we saw her.
21 Q. All right. You said Ilka's house is there. Can you just
22 describe for us which one Ilka's house is? We've enlarged a bit and there
23 seems to be about four or five houses near that sandbank. Was it one of
24 those ones?
25 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, Your Honour, but I can't see what's
1 been enlarged and what's been shown to the witness. I just have a static
2 image in front of me here.
3 JUDGE LIU: Well, because of the technical problems, you know,
4 and the -- we could not do everything as we did in this courtroom, I think
5 that, you know, there's no disputes that, you know, those two people's
6 dead bodies were found in the village or nearby the village, so there's no
7 need for us to know the exact location of those dead bodies.
8 Do you agree, Mr. Morrissey?
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, unfortunately, with respect, I
10 don't. It does matter where they were. But, however, the Prosecutor is
11 entitled to do what he's doing now. And I'm not objecting to him doing
12 it. I just wanted to -- I just want to know where he says they were and
13 where the witness says they were. And it might be -- it might be able to
14 be done by oral description using this photograph. My only concern was
15 that I didn't have the same photograph in front of me or the same part of
16 the photograph to which Mr. Re was referring, and therefore as long as
17 I've got in front of me what he's referring to, I'm content and I'm happy
18 with the way he's proceeding, frankly.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll see how far we could go. As a matter of
20 fact, I only have the overall pictures but not, you know, zoomed pictures
21 on my screen.
22 MR. RE:
23 Q. Mrs. Miletic, can you just describe where Ilka Miletic's house is
24 in relation to that sandbank. Is it above or below the sandbank, to the
25 left or the right on the photograph?
1 A. You see those huts? It's right behind them. There are three
2 small houses there. One belonged to her aunt. And there they are, in
3 front of those huts.
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. Are these the three or four buildings which are just
7 underneath -- slightly to the left and underneath the sandbank in the bend
8 in the river?
9 A. Those two, three houses at the bend -- no, no, they're a bit
10 lower down. Can you see the huts? There are eight of them, and then
11 right behind the huts, not ten steps away, that's where her house is.
12 Q. I just want to be clear on which huts you're referring to. Are
13 these the -- the huts that go up the hillside, the long ones?
14 A. On the left bank, near the asphalt road. That's where the huts
15 are. When you're going in the direction of Sarajevo, they're on your
16 right-hand side, but apparently in these papers it's called the left bank.
17 Q. All right. Approximately how far from the sandbank in metres is
18 Ilka Miletic's house and these huts?
19 A. There they are, below the sandbank. They're in the village. You
20 know what the village is? They're in the village, in the middle of the
21 village. That's the easiest. It's down by the asphalt road. I did show
22 that to that man in the hotel.
23 Q. Is there an area in that photograph that you describe as a lake?
24 A. Yes. There's the lake. It's the River Neretva, but you can call
25 it a lake. It doesn't matter.
1 Q. When you were leaving -- leaving on the -- the 9th, did you see
2 soldiers doing anything near the lake?
3 A. Yes. They were joking. They were shooting into the lake, maybe
4 shooting at fish. I don't know what they were doing. I have no idea. I
5 just saw them by the lake.
6 Q. Do you know whether the body of Ilka Miletic or -- and Ivan
7 Mandic were ever recovered or identified?
8 A. Ilka's was never -- it's hard for me to pronounce. Ivan's was.
9 He was buried in Mostar and then taken back to Grabovica, where his wife
10 is buried. That's what the children did when they were able to. But
11 Ilka's was never found. I -- I am sure of that.
12 Q. Are you able to say when Ivan Mandic's body was identified?
13 A. I can't tell you the date. I can't lie. I really can't. Was it
14 1995? I don't know. I can't tell you precisely. I don't like lying. I
15 don't know the precise date. You can ask somebody who knows better than I
17 MR. RE: Your Honours, that's the evidence in chief, unless a
18 photograph could be obtained and -- the photograph which apparently was
19 shown to her yesterday could be obtained and shown to her again in
20 Sarajevo. That's as far as I can take it.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, is it possible to show this witness some
23 MR. RE: In court or in Sarajevo?
24 JUDGE LIU: In both places, wherever.
25 MR. RE: It's possible for her to have a photograph in front of
1 her in Sarajevo and mark on that and it to be shown to the -- the screen,
2 I think, and tendered and given to the registry officer and brought back
3 here. I think I've seen that done before.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Any objections?
5 MR. MORRISSEY: In general, there's no objections to anything
6 that's going to help. I'm not sure what's planned here. But can I
7 indicate that I would intend to take the witness for a walk up this -- up
8 this road in this photograph and attempt to step by step show what she
9 passed and that might suffice? That would be my intention. And I was
10 also going to show her certain photographs and get her to identify things
11 without marking on them. But I don't object to any realistic proposal.
12 Frankly, the best proposal seems to me that the witness should have had or
13 should have the photograph with her in Sarajevo and can mark what she
14 wants and then that can be tendered in hard copy.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let us try.
16 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Your Honour --
17 MR. RE: We have to telephone the court in -- or the office in
18 Sarajevo and find the photograph, which I believe should be there.
19 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Your Honours, can you hear me?
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE LIU: Well, I was told that the witness there needs some
22 preparations, so maybe we could have a break at this stage. So we'll have
23 30 minutes' break and we'll resume at quarter to 11.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m.
25 --- On resuming at 10.49 a.m.
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Chana, you have something to raise at this
3 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. In respect to the next witness,
4 whose name I will not now speak in public, she has requested for
5 protective measures, Your Honour. She would like pseudonym and face
7 I have discussed with her at some length, and this was done
8 yesterday by our -- our man in Sarajevo, as we can call him, and this
9 morning I talked to her myself. She says that she would like protection
10 because they still own a home in Grabovica and her husband and her do
11 return there on the odd occasion and she feels that she had been all the
12 time under the illusion that she will be given protective measures, and I
13 promised to ask Your Honours whether that would be possible.
14 JUDGE LIU: Any comments on that?
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, as we've indicated in the past, we
16 take a different view with people who are genuinely victims, as she is,
17 and if it is a matter of setting her at her ease to have those matters, of
18 course it's the Court's decision, but we make no submission against it
19 being done.
20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your cooperation.
21 Your request is granted, Ms. Chana.
22 MS. CHANA: Most obliged, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
24 Well, Mr. Re, I believe that the photographs are in place. Are
25 you going to continue?
1 MR. RE: Yes.
2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. You may proceed.
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. Mrs. Miletic, do you have the photograph in front of you?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. All right. Now, is that the same photograph that the lawyer
7 showed you yesterday and which you marked but the one you have now is a
8 blank one?
9 A. It's the same. Yes, here it is before me on paper.
10 Q. All right. Does it have the number 02992354 at the very top of
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. RE: That's, for the record, MFI163.
14 Q. I just want you to -- first of all, it's a photocopy of -- it's a
15 black-and-white photocopy; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I want you to mark four things on this photograph for me with a
18 circle and "1", "2", "3", and "4". Firstly, I want you to draw on the
19 map, on the plan, your own house with a "1". Put a "1" inside the circle.
20 And tell me when you've done that.
21 A. I've done that.
22 Q. Number "2", the house of Ilka Miletic; the same, a circle with
23 a "2" inside it.
24 A. I've done that.
25 Q. Number 3, the house of Ivan Mandic; the same, a circle with a "3"
1 on it.
2 A. I've done that.
3 Q. And finally, number 4, a circle and the spot where the bodies
5 A. Number 4.
6 Q. All right. And just so this photograph is completely clear, can
7 you put -- is there a white --
8 A. I've done that.
9 Q. Thank you. Is there a white space underneath the photograph
10 where you can write?
11 A. Yes, around the edges.
12 Q. Can you just, please, put "1", "2", "3", and "4", and next
13 to "1", put your name, Katica Miletic.
14 A. Excuse me. "1", "2", "3", "4", in a sequence? Right next to
15 each other?
16 Q. However it fits.
17 A. Very well. Then my name, Miletic?
18 Q. That's right.
19 A. I've done that. I've written down the numbers and my name.
20 Q. All right. Number 2, "Ilka Miletic"; and number 3, "Ivan Mandic?
21 A. Their names?
22 Q. Yes. Next to "2", "Ilka Miletic," and next to "3", "Ivan
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. Okay. Can you please --
1 A. I've done that.
2 Q. -- show the photograph to the screen so we can have a look at it.
3 A. Where am I supposed to put it?
4 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] You're not going to be able to
5 actually see it, I don't think, the markings.
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. Can you just move it down a bit so we can see the number 4.
8 Maybe I meant up, the other way.
9 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Do you want them to zoom in?
10 MR. RE: I can't actually see the number 4 on that photograph.
11 Could you please describe where it is.
12 Someone -- anyone who's holding it, would you be able to point to
13 where the number 4 is on the photograph so we can see it.
14 Thank you.
15 May that be received into evidence?
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe the court deputy could give it a number.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, before it's received into evidence,
18 there's just one matter. I was going to ask a question. It may be that
19 Mr. Re could ask the question. I just wanted to ask that -- that it be
20 marked where Ljubica Mandic's house was as well. And if we don't mark it
21 now, we're going to have to get it to do -- to get another copy and tender
22 that. So -- the Prosecution is not obliged to, but it may be appropriate
23 that they could ask that that be done and then I won't oppose the tender
24 at that point.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes. I think that's --
1 MR. RE:
2 Q. Mrs. Mandic -- sorry, Mrs. Miletic, could you also mark on that
3 photograph the house of Ljubica Mandic, please, if it's there. Please do
4 that with a "5" and a circle.
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. And please, at the very bottom, can you just write the "5"
7 and "Ljubica Mandic," please, for the legend.
8 A. [Marks].
9 MR. RE: And when that's done, can that please again be shown to
10 the screen. And it would help if someone could point to where the "5" is.
11 Thank you. I've finished with that diagram or photograph. May
12 it be now received into evidence.
13 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
15 What's the number for that, Mr. Court Deputy?
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P163, Your
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
19 MR. RE: That's the evidence.
20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
21 Any cross-examination?
22 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:
24 Q. Mrs. Miletic, my name is Morrissey, and I am Defence counsel for
25 Mr. Halilovic in this matter. I have a short number of questions for you,
1 and the first questions I want to ask are about the moment when you saw
2 the bodies of the deceased people that you noticed on the road to
4 Now, as you walked along that road towards Jablanica, were the
5 bodies that you saw to your left, on the river side, or were they to your
7 A. On the left side of the river as you go towards Jablanica.
8 Q. And were they on the hillside leading down to the river or were
9 they still on the road?
10 A. Next to the road. Next to the asphalt road. The river is down
12 Q. Mrs. Miletic, I want to put to you something that you told the
13 investigators from this Tribunal in the past, and then I'm going to ask
14 you if it's accurate and ask you some questions. So if you would just
15 have patience, I'll read this to you briefly.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: And Your Honours, could I indicate that what I'm
17 reading from is a statement here provided to the Defence, a statement --
18 an ICTY statement of this witness dated 31st of July, 2003 and given to an
19 interviewer named Bernard Brun, and I'm reading from page 2, paragraph 8
20 of the -- of the statement.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, I shall read you this passage. And you were
22 talking about your cousin -- sorry, your sister-in-law -- your cousin
23 Ilka. And you said this: "I never seen her alive again, but I think I
24 saw her body while I was walking on the main road toward Jablanica. At --
25 sorry, around 1500 hours, I saw two bodies along the main road on the left
1 side close to the dam."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, there's just a little bit more. I want to keep
4 reading. Okay. So now I'm quoting again: "I suppose that those bodies
5 belonged to Ilka Miletic and Ivan Mandic because they were in civilian
6 clothings -- clothes and had grey hair. I didn't dare to watch the bodies
7 closer because at the same time soldiers were around."
8 Now, Ms. Miletic, did you say that to the investigators and --
9 and is that the truth?
10 A. Yes, I did say it, and it is true.
11 Q. Yes. Now, let me ask you some questions about this. When you
12 saw those bodies, you did not stop to inspect them to identify them; is
13 that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And I understand that that is because you were very upset and
16 nervous about what might happen to you; is that correct?
17 A. Yes. Yes.
18 Q. And I take it therefore that you didn't stop working but you
19 continued as quickly as you could towards Jablanica.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. At the same time you passed those two bodies, you were unable to
22 be sure of their identity; is that correct?
23 A. How do you mean? Could you please repeat that, identify. I
24 don't understand that sentence. Could you please repeat that, sir.
25 Q. Yes. I shall put the question a slightly different way.
1 Today in court you have expressed the view that the two people you
2 saw were Ilka Miletic and Ivan Mandic. There's no criticism of you --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- in that view, but my question is: At the very moment when you
5 walked past those two bodies that you saw, at that moment you did not know
6 precisely who those two people were. Now, do you agree with the
7 proposition I've just put?
8 A. I knew who they were, but we just didn't dare. I didn't have
9 time nor was I able to go closer. We just passed by, and they were left
10 behind. What could I have done? There was nothing I could do.
11 Q. Well, can I make it quite clear that there is no criticism of you
12 at all. That's not what these questions are about.
13 But let me ask some more questions: When you walked past those
14 bodies, you did not look at the face of either of them; is that true?
15 A. We just passed by. There was this woman in front of me -- well,
16 she had a -- a grey sheepskin or fur coat. She had grey hair. What more
17 could I see?
18 Q. I'm not suggesting that you should have seen anything more, but
19 that is in fact what you saw and what you noticed; am I right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. As far as that woman that you saw, I take it, then, you saw the
22 back of her head; is that correct?
23 A. She was lying down. I didn't pay attention to the back of her
24 head. She was lying there dead. I just passed by. She's an elderly
25 woman, I think.
1 Q. Now, you didn't make any observations of other clothes, apart
2 from the sheepskin coat; is that true?
3 A. I didn't really look much more. She had a brown fur coat. I
4 didn't really look. She was wearing trousers, of course. I don't know.
5 It's been 11 years since then. I don't know what colour the trousers were
6 or anything like that.
7 Q. Of course. But is this true that because of the condition of
8 fear and danger you were in, you looked at her for no more than two
10 A. That is true, yes. Yes. For sure.
11 Q. All right. I turn now to the -- the male person that you saw.
12 Did you look at this male person for a similar period of time, one to two
14 A. The same. Yes, the same. He was a sick person. He was
15 suffering from asthma. I don't know what else to tell you. Both of them
16 were there dead. They both had grey hair. They were elderly people.
17 What more can I say? I have nothing further to add.
18 Q. Yes. Well, Ms. Miletic, at that time as you walked along the
19 road, were you wearing your glasses or not?
20 A. No. No, I wasn't. I was younger then. It's been 11 years since
21 then. I wasn't wearing glasses then at that time. I can tell you that
22 for sure. That's a positive thing.
23 Q. That's okay. Let me just clarify that question. And it's not
24 meant to be a rude question. At that time, were you in the habit of
25 wearing glasses at all, or is that something that you have adopted more
2 A. I hadn't started to wear glasses at that time, no. I have been
3 wearing glasses since four years ago. For the past four years, I've been
4 wearing glasses.
5 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, upon arriving in Jablanica --
6 A. Thank you. Thank you.
7 Q. Upon arriving in Jablanica, did you hear some news that -- well,
8 I withdraw that question.
9 I just want to confirm this. You have answered this question and
10 I just want to be clear that I've understood the answer, okay? As to --
11 as to the woman that you saw, you did not actually see her face at that
12 time you saw her; is that correct?
13 A. I did. I am positive that it was her. I saw her face. She was
14 lying there. But we just walked by quickly. I've known this woman for a
15 long, long time. It wasn't difficult for me to recognise her, but we
16 didn't spend any time there. This is my cousin, my relative.
17 Q. Yes, I appreciate that. But Ms. Miletic, in your statement which
18 I read out to you, you used this term. You said: "I suppose that those
19 bodies belonged to Ilka Miletic and Ivan Mandic because they were in
20 civilian clothes and had grey hair." Now, you recall I asked you about
21 that and you said that was the truth? Is that correct?
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. Yes. Okay. So it is the fact, isn't it, that you did not get a
24 good look at the face of this woman that you saw?
25 A. I did. I walked past her. I looked and then continued on my
1 way. What else could I do? What else could I have done? I have no
2 further comment.
3 Q. That's okay. The people that you were with walking along the
4 road, did you make the comment to them, "Look, that's Ilka. Look, that's
5 Ivan," or did you not make that comment?
6 A. No. No. We didn't go there. These were elderly people. We
7 just kept walking by. We were just -- we continued walking. We didn't
8 have any comments or anything like that.
9 Q. Yes. In your statement, why was it, then, that you said the
10 word "I suppose" at the start of the statement, "I suppose that those
11 bodies belonged to Ilka Miletic and Ivan Mandic"?
12 A. Because I saw her. I saw her. I saw them, and we walked past
13 them. We were on our way to Jablanica. We passed by them, and they
14 remained there. That's why I said it. I didn't make that up. I'm not
15 telling you a lie.
16 Q. Ms. Miletic, no one is suggesting that you're telling us a lie.
17 Now, could I ask you some general questions, please, about the
18 situation in your village prior to the killings that -- that bring us
19 here. First of all, after the Bosnian army came to Grabovica on the
20 9th of May, did a group of soldiers known as Cedo's Wolves take up
21 residence in the village of Grabovica?
22 A. They would come and go all the time to our village. When the
23 B and H army took control of our village on the 10th of May, they were
24 there. They were walking around. I was not paying attention to what they
25 were doing. I was minding my own business. But I have no -- I have no
1 other comment. That's all I can say.
2 Q. In general terms, did you keep to yourself and not mix with the
4 A. When they would ask us something, we would respond to their
5 questions. If they saw us around our house or something, if they asked us
6 a question, we would give them an answer if we knew it.
7 Q. Late in August, did a large number of refugees begin to pass
8 through Grabovica?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Very well. And did some of those refugees come to stay in the
12 A. Yes, they did.
13 Q. And did you and -- and some of those that you know from the
14 village extend kindness to them and from time to time give them food and
16 A. Yes, we did. We took care of them very well for that first week,
17 and there were even people that we knew who had come to our villages,
18 refugees. We were very nice to those people. A week later, when the
19 massacre took place, we left, so we didn't really see them anymore. But
20 during that week when we were together, our conduct towards them was very
21 nice. But that's about all I can say.
22 Q. Very well. Now, at around that time, did the Bosnian army
23 provide a medical doctor to provide services to the Grabovica people at
24 the power plant facility?
25 A. Yes, during the summer. That is true. From May until right up
1 to the massacre on the 9th of September, yes. But really once we left, I
2 don't know anything that was happening there. I really don't. I've said
3 that sincerely.
4 Q. Yes. That's okay. That's okay. The questions focus on that
5 period in the summer and up until the time when you left, okay?
6 Did the army also provide a weekly bus service that took people
7 from the village into Jablanica for shopping and other purposes?
8 A. They said that they would do that, but I don't really remember.
9 But there weren't really too many buses around. I really don't know.
10 They did say that, but there weren't many buses. Maybe there was a
11 shortage of fuel or something, but I really don't know much about that.
12 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, when those refugees came to live in the
13 village, do you remember an elderly man among those refugees with the name
14 of Zulfo?
15 A. I don't know. Was that a civilian? I don't know.
16 Q. The evidence -- well, we think it will be, but in any event if
17 you don't recall him, that's okay.
18 Do you recall that some refugees --
19 A. No, I don't remember. No.
20 Q. Okay. Do you recall that some refugees were housed with Ivan and
21 Stoja Pranjic on the right bank?
22 A. Yes. But I don't know who that was, to tell you the truth. I
23 don't know.
24 Q. Is -- is your memory this: That there were some refugees housed
25 on the right bank but you can't be sure in which house or with which
2 A. I really don't know. We're divided. The river divides us, so I
3 don't know who was on the right bank of the refugees. I don't know.
4 That's what we call it, the right bank. I don't know if any of the
5 refugees were there. I really cannot recall. I don't know.
6 Q. Very well. Ms. Miletic, you've already given evidence as to what
7 happened on the 8th and the early part of the 9th of September, and I'm
8 not going to repeat or take you over that evidence again. So I want to
9 come, however --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I want to come to the point at which you set out on your journey
12 and just indicate the path that you took.
13 A. From my house?
14 Q. Yes. Very well. Now, just tell me if these facts are accurate.
15 We'll go through them and you can comment.
16 First of all, the -- the three of you left from your house; is
17 that correct?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
20 A. Yes, we did.
21 Q. After about 900 metres, you passed the house of Ilka; is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And soon after that, you passed the house of Ljubica Mandic.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, in passing the house of Ljubica Mandic, was she at home?
2 A. I didn't pay attention. We walked by quickly. I really don't
3 know. We were in a hurry.
4 Q. But you were close to Ljubica Mandic, weren't you?
5 A. Yes, I was. But we were in a hurry. We were really in a hurry.
6 I didn't go into the house or pay attention to that because the impression
7 that we had came from one of the soldiers. He told us, "Hurry up."
8 That's all I can say. So that's why we were in a hurry.
9 Q. I understand that you were in a hurry. Is it also the fact that
10 as you passed the area where Ljubica's house is, a Muslim refugee told
11 you, "They've gone already," or words to that effect?
12 A. Nobody said anything to me. I don't want to lie. This is a
13 court and I don't want to say anything that is not true. Nobody told me
14 that they had left, no.
15 Q. Very well. Well, the -- the reason you were hurrying is, quite
16 frankly, because you were afraid that you might be hurt or killed; is that
18 A. Yes, that's correct. We were afraid. You were never feeling
19 safe with the army around, so it's true that we were afraid.
20 Q. Yes. But on this occasion, you were afraid of death; correct?
21 A. Of course. That is very normal.
22 Q. Well, can I ask you this: Why didn't you take the ten seconds or
23 so needed to knock on Ljubica's door and see if she was there?
24 A. No, we didn't. I didn't have time. I was afraid. I didn't dare
25 to do that, and that's it. We were in a hurry, so I didn't knock on the
1 door, no.
2 Q. And you're sure that no Muslim refugee told you that all these
3 people -- that they were all gone or that everybody had left?
4 A. I did meet one woman. I asked her, "Where are our women?" And
5 she said, "They're all gone." But this was a woman. I didn't know that
6 woman. She was a refugee. But I did ask her, "Tell me, please, where are
7 all of our women?" And she said, "They're all -- they've all gone," and
8 that's how it ended.
9 Q. Yes. And it's because of that that you didn't waste time
10 knocking on doors and seeing where people were.
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. And --
13 A. I didn't knock, no.
14 Q. You pressed on towards Jablanica in the belief that Ljubica had
15 already gone.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Very well. Thank you. And --
18 Yes. Excuse me a moment.
19 I've just got a question about the soldiers who came to your house
20 and told you to leave. Did those -- did you see what direction those
21 soldiers came from? The Mostar direction or the Jablanica direction, in
22 relation to your house?
23 A. From the direction of Jablanica. From the right bank. They were
24 not from Mostar. I am sure of that.
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. Not from that direction.
2 Q. I'm really referring to their approach to your house, not their
3 original place of residence.
4 A. From the direction of the north, from Jablanica. There are no
5 other directions where we are. There is north and south. South is from
6 Mostar and north is from Jablanica, and they came from Jablanica. I don't
7 know how to explain it to you any other way. I'm not able to explain it
8 in any other way.
9 Q. You've explained it perfectly, and thank you.
10 There is -- at the southern end of the village of Grabovica,
11 there was once an old iron footbridge. Was that still in place at the
12 time of these incidents?
13 A. Yes. Yes. But pedestrians didn't dare to do that. Perhaps a
14 younger man or something, but it's quite bad. It's -- it's a rotting
15 bridge and it was not in good condition, and nobody really dared to cross
17 Q. Yes. I'm just going to ask you to -- to look at a couple of
18 photographs now.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: And I ask that the witness be shown -- just
20 excuse me a moment -- photograph -- I apologise for this, but I don't have
21 the MFI number.
22 Your Honours, I'm sorry about this. I'll have to just give the
23 old numbers. I thought I had it marked, but I don't. This is Prosecution
24 photograph P81, and the four numbers are 01494688.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. RE: That would be P81, Your Honour.
2 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you. Yes, it's admitted. Yes.
3 I'm sorry, I had a failure of confidence in my numbering system.
4 It is admitted as P81. Thank you.
5 Q. This photograph that's going to be shown to you, Ms. Miletic, is
6 an aerial view of some houses. And I just want you to look at them. Do
7 you have that photograph in front of you yet?
8 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] We do not have the photograph. It's
9 being shown now.
10 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.
11 Q. Ms. Miletic, do you see in that photograph in the top left-hand
12 corner an L-shaped building with a grey roof?
13 A. Yes, I see it. I see it.
14 Q. Were there soldiers billeted in that building?
15 A. Yes, those huts you can see below the buildings, they belonged to
16 the hydroelectric power plant. That's where they were billeted.
17 Q. Is the house that's on the main road on the left-hand side of the
18 picture, is that the house owned by Luca and Jozo Mandic?
19 A. Luca and Jozo Mandic? Oh, yes. Yes, you can see it. Yes. I
20 recall it now. When you go from Mostar on the left-hand side, there is a
21 little hut there for -- for curing meat. I don't know what you call it.
22 Yes, you can see that on the screen.
23 Q. Yes. Very well. Now, on the right-hand side, can you see some
24 houses which are at the start of a very small narrow valley?
25 A. Yes, I see it.
1 Q. Okay. And in that valley --
2 MR. MORRISSEY: If Your Honour -- if you would just excuse me a
4 Q. Perhaps I'll withdraw that question.
5 In relation to that valley there, can you explain whereabouts was
6 the refugee that you saw who told you, "They've all gone"?
7 A. She was going down the road into the village. It's a street.
8 She was walking down the street and so was I. And I don't know how I
9 addressed her, but I said, "Where are our people?" And she said, "They've
10 left." But it's this street branching off into the village, and that's
11 where we met and that's where she spoke to me.
12 Q. And is that -- is that point at which you met or is that street
13 in which you met shown in this photograph that you're looking at?
14 A. No. It's going from Jozo's house towards the south, about some
15 10 metres to the south. You can't see that part.
16 Q. All right. I'll show you another photograph, and we'll see if
17 you can indicate it.
18 A. All right.
19 THE REGISTRAR: [In Sarajevo] Excuse me, Mr. Morrissey, but
20 it's -- I want you to know that if you want her to point to any parts on
21 the picture, she can. We've set it up so that she can do that.
22 MR. MORRISSEY: Very well. Well, perhaps I -- perhaps I won't
23 need to show you another photograph.
24 Q. You've indicated that it is 10 metres to the left-hand side of
25 the edge of this photograph that you're looking at; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. But towards the south, towards the south. Not towards the
3 Q. Yes, towards Mostar.
4 A. Yes. Yes. That's right. How silly of me not to say that. It's
5 in the direction of Mostar, yes.
6 Q. Ms. Miletic, would you just bear with me for one moment. This
7 cross-examination has almost finished.
8 A. Please go ahead. Just go ahead.
9 Q. Yes. When you were collected by the -- when you arrived at
10 Donja Jablanica, you were picked up in a vehicle by -- by some men, and I
11 wanted to ask you --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- do you -- were those men policemen?
14 A. I don't know. They had multicoloured clothes. I don't want to
15 lie. They stopped. I'm grateful to them. We got in, my brother and
16 brother-in-law and myself. We didn't talk at all. They just asked us
17 where we wanted to go, and I told them to drop us off at the petrol
18 station, and that's what happened. And who they were, I don't know. They
19 stopped at the petrol station and let us out.
20 Q. In -- near to the area where you saw the two bodies that you
21 noticed, is there a small channel for water?
22 A. There's a dam there. The dam is a bit upstream from that place,
23 but it's a bit further up from my house, and there are channels there.
24 There may be a spring of water. I don't know. I never walked around
25 there much. Somebody else who lived closer to that place might be able to
1 tell you.
2 Q. Very well. The final question relates to the vehicle that you
3 saw when you saw the soldiers with the video camera. Could you describe
4 that vehicle, please.
5 A. It was a TAM truck. It was the colour of an orange. I don't
6 know what you'd call that colour. It's like an orange. We call that kind
7 of truck a Tamic. That's all I can tell you about it.
8 Q. Will you seen that truck being used -- that truck or trucks of
9 that sort being used by the soldiers in the previous months?
10 A. Yes. They drove around in it. They didn't have many trucks, but
11 they did drive around. What do I know? I didn't really look. I just
12 know that they did drive around.
13 Q. No. All I'm asking you about is that you'd seen trucks like this
14 over the previous months in use by the soldiers; is that right?
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. Very well. Thank you very much for your patience.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Those are the questions.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
19 Any redirect, Mr. Re?
20 MR. RE: Yes.
21 Re-examined by Mr. Re:
22 Q. Mrs. Miletic --
23 A. Thank you too.
24 Q. Mr. Morrissey asked you about the clothes that Ilka Miletic was
25 wearing when you saw her body on your way to Jablanica. You said she was
1 wearing a brown sheepskin coat. Had you seen her wearing that brown
2 sheepskin coat before?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Morrissey also asked you about refugees. What was the
5 ethnicity of the refugees in Grabovica in August and September 1993?
6 A. They were Muslims by nationality. That's all I can tell you.
7 Q. And you are a Bosnian Croat; is that correct?
8 A. Yes, I am. I am a Catholic. I am a Croat.
9 Q. And your relatives, Ilka Miletic, she likewise was a Bosnian
10 Croat, is that correct, and Ivan Mandic?
11 A. Yes. Yes, she was.
12 MR. RE: Nothing further.
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
14 Well, thank you very much, witness, for your testimony.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too. You have been very
16 nice to me. I don't know whether I was nice to you.
17 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the Bench will wish you a good
18 journey back home today. Thank you very much.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you again. Thank you very
20 much. I wish you good luck in your work and in everything and a long
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
23 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, it seems to me that we have a few minutes left
25 for this sitting. Are there any matters that the parties would like to
1 raise at this stage?
2 Yes, Mr. Morrissey.
3 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, the only matter that comes
4 immediately to mind is the list of witnesses for next week. The
5 Prosecution has indicated orally certain matters this morning, but I think
6 it should be spelled out now who is coming and in what order.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, of course, because, you know, we have some
8 delay, you know, for this week. The two witnesses as requested by the
9 Prosecutor has been postponed until next week. Maybe it's time for the
10 Prosecution to let us know what's the order for the next witnesses.
11 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I will file it in writing. The parent
12 order, or the order that we believe is set has to go to the Victims and
13 Witnesses Unit to contact the persons. But what it appears to be is
14 Dr. Definis-Gojanovic will be first because of scheduling. We want to get
15 her on and off and back to the hospital; that next we would have
16 Mr. Arnautovic, who was scheduled initially to be on this week; then
17 Mr. Mehinovic, who was supposed to be on this week; and then I just want
18 to check the next two with the Victims and Witnesses Unit. One of those
19 two might -- is requesting protective measures or was initially
20 requesting, so I'd rather not say the names in public, but there will be a
21 list as soon as I speak -- confirm with the Victims and Witnesses Unit, so
22 within the next hour or so.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
24 And I believe that we'll receive that list as early as possible.
25 MR. WEINER: Yes. Thank you.
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think there are a few issues I have to deal
3 The first one is that I would like to draw the attention of the
4 parties that this Trial Chamber granted the Prosecution's motion to vary
5 its Rule 65 ter witness list.
6 Referring to the order of the Trial Chamber in its decision on the
7 variation of the witness list to disclose the 66(A)(ii) material
8 concerning -- concerning the witnesses added to the Prosecution's witness
9 list, the Trial Chamber thereby grants the Prosecution's application for
10 leave to disclose the Rule 66(A)(ii) material pursuant to the Trial
11 Chamber's decision of 7 May filed on the 17th January 2005 concerning with
12 the four statements given by Delalic, and the Prosecution's request for
13 leave to disclose statement pursuant to 7th May 2004, the Trial Chamber's
14 order filed on the 26th January 2005, the one statement concerning a
15 witness. Maybe we could do it in the private session if it's requested by
16 the parties.
17 An order of the Prosecution to provide the statement to the
18 Defence in English translation if not already done so.
19 As said in the decision, the Trial Chamber will ensure that
20 Defence has adequate time to prepare for the added witnesses.
21 Well, I think that's all for today, and then tomorrow we'll have
22 another witness through the videoconference link.
24 MR. MORRISSEY: I'd just --
25 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Morrissey.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, might I just indicate for the
2 assistance of the Prosecutor, I think that the -- I'm not sure how long
3 the Prosecutor means to be with Dr. Definis-Gojanovic, but I can't see it
4 being a lengthy cross-examination, so that however that places the
5 Prosecutor for witnesses, I -- I just indicate I would think it unlikely
6 I'd go over an hour with that witness.
7 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much indeed.
8 Mr. Re.
9 MR. RE: Could we have some indication of how long the Defence
10 might be in cross-examination with tomorrow's witness, the one Your
11 Honours have just granted a pseudonym to, for planning purposes.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Tomorrow's witness is a little more volatile.
13 And it really depends how the -- that one there, I'm reluctant to give an
14 estimate. I'm sorry. I shall do better than with Mr. Gusic; I can
15 indicate that.
16 JUDGE LIU: Well, of course. But we have to finish tomorrow's --
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.
18 JUDGE LIU: -- witness on that day.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: Oh, yes, I think we'd be very confident to finish
20 the witness tomorrow. It's just a question whether it's going to be a
21 very short one, in which case they'd need another witness or not. And I
22 can't give an undertaking that we'd be less than a day. We'll finish the
23 witness tomorrow.
24 JUDGE LIU: In order to facilitate the proceedings tomorrow, I
25 request that all the documents, if needed, should be furnished to that
1 witness beforehand so that -- to save the time of the -- of the hearing.
2 Yes. Well, having said that, I think the hearing for today is
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.48 a.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of
6 February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.