050215ED

Page 3

1 Well, could we have the witness, please.

2 [The witness entered court]

3 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, witness.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

5 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to start?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

7 JUDGE LIU: Your testimony will be finished today.

8 Yes, Mr. Morrissey, please continue your cross.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

10 WITNESS: ERDIN ARNAUTOVIC [Resumed]

11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey: [Continued]

13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Arnautovic.

14 Mr. Arnautovic, I want to now take you to the beginning of your

15 journey down to Herzegovina and in particular to Hrasnica. You indicated

16 yesterday that -- would you just excuse me one moment, please.

17 Yes. Thank you. Sorry.

18 Very well. You indicated yesterday that you were -- that you and

19 your soldiers had to wait for a period at Hrasnica until Ramiz Delalic

20 came and sorted out the issue of the trucks; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Now, I put it to you that, although -- although Ramiz Delalic

23 sorted out the truck, Sefer Halilovic was present at Hrasnica with a

24 journalist called Sevko Hodzic. Do you agree with that?

25 A. I didn't see him at all at that time.

Page 4

1 Q. Very well. When you left Hrasnica, you did so in the company of

2 Ramiz Delalic; is that correct?

3 A. I did that with the soldiers.

4 Q. Yes. And with Ramiz Delalic; is that correct?

5 A. I was in the truck.

6 Q. Yes. But in the convoy with you was Ramiz Delalic; is that

7 correct?

8 A. He wasn't in the truck with us.

9 Q. My question to you was: In the convoy with you. What's the

10 answer to that?

11 A. I don't know. You should ask Ramiz Delalic where he was. I know

12 that I was on the truck with the other men.

13 Q. Thank you. On your way to -- to Herzegovina, you knew that you

14 might be engaged in combat activities against Croatian people; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. It's the fact that the 9th Brigade had a number of Croatian

18 people in the brigade itself. And I'll give you an example of the -- the

19 chief of military security, Mr. Tomo Juric; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And as far as you were concerned, there was no particular

22 grievance that anyone in the unit held, to your knowledge, against Croats;

23 is that correct?

24 A. As far as I know, that's correct, yes.

25 Q. Yes, thank you. I now take you to Jablanica itself. And I put

Page 5

1 to you that when you arrived at Jablanica, Ramiz Delalic also arrived

2 there. Is that correct?

3 A. No, he remained in Konjic.

4 Q. All right. Is it your evidence that he did not go to Jablanica

5 on that morning of the 8th of September? Is that your position?

6 A. He went as far as Konjic, and then he remained in Konjic with

7 Malco Rovcanin and Fikret Kajevic, and then he arrived later on.

8 Q. Yes. Well, in the statement that you made on the 3rd of

9 December, 1998 to the cantonal court in Sarajevo - and this is at page 2,

10 Your Honours - did you say this, and this is about ten lines from the top:

11 "I was going into the village of Grabovica, but Rovcanin Malco,

12 Delalic Ramiz, and Kajevic Fikret remained at Jablanica because of

13 additional agreeing with officers of other units that were to take part in

14 the action."

15 Now, did you say that to the cantonal court back in 1998?

16 A. I do not recognise the cantonal court because the police and

17 judiciary are all corrupt. They're all saying and writing false things.

18 I do not accept any statements made before those courts.

19 Q. Is it your position that you told the cantonal court in 1998 that

20 Ramiz Delalic and his friends stopped at Konjic and didn't go to

21 Jablanica?

22 A. I don't remember what I said then and I didn't care, because that

23 was the kind of judge who was intent on locking everybody up.

24 Q. I've just got a question to you about the leadership of the unit

25 that came down to Herzegovina. Now, what you said yesterday is that as

Page 6

1 far as you knew, Ramiz wasn't originally going to come to Herzegovina as

2 leader at all. Is that correct?

3 A. As far as I knew, we were under Zuka's command, and he was not

4 important because somebody else was in command, not him.

5 Q. Just focus on my question about Ramiz Delalic, please. Your

6 initial position yesterday was that he wasn't going to come at all; is

7 that correct?

8 A. I didn't say that. I said he was called to go to Hrasnica. As

9 for Ramiz Delalic, ask him. Call him to testify and he will tell you.

10 Q. Yes. Well, right at the moment, Mr. Arnautovic, you're here and

11 I'm asking you the questions.

12 The structure of that unit, the assault unit, I put to you, was

13 that the assault unit had a leader who, throughout 1993 and up to the time

14 of this incident, was Malco Rovcanin; is that correct?

15 A. Malco Rovcanin was the commander of that assault group up to that

16 time. I don't know when exactly. And then later on there was somebody

17 else.

18 Q. Yes. But according to you, Malco Rovcanin stayed with Ramiz on

19 this occasion in Konjic; is that correct?

20 A. When we were on our way there, yes, he stayed there.

21 Q. Yes. So under Malco Rovcanin, there were three platoons or three

22 units, each of which had a leader within the assault company; is that

23 correct?

24 A. I don't know how many exactly, but I know that from every brigade

25 they all had their own leaders leading the unit.

Page 7

1 Q. We're talking about your unit right now, so just focus on that.

2 In the assault company, there were three platoons, and they were led, I

3 suggest to you, by particular individuals. And I'm asking you now to name

4 those individuals. Who were the three leaders of the platoons within that

5 company of which you were, and had been for a long time, a member?

6 A. There were no platoon leaders. I know there was Zuti, who was

7 then the commander of the assault detachment, and I don't know what his

8 real name is. Zuti was a nickname.

9 Q. Well, was Zuti a member of the 9th Brigade or was he from

10 somewhere else?

11 A. He was a member of the 9th Brigade.

12 Q. Well, I want you to just exercise your memory, please, as someone

13 who was the logistics officer for the 9th Brigade assault detachment.

14 What was Zuti's name?

15 A. I have already said, I cannot remember his first and last name.

16 I know everybody called him Zuti, because in our part of the world, most

17 people knew each other by nickname.

18 Q. Yes. All right. Well, the situation was this: That when you

19 got to Jablanica, as far as you know, there was no leader of the -- the

20 troops from the 9th Brigade who were going down to Herzegovina. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. Could you repeat your question, please.

23 Q. By the time you got to Jablanica, there was no leader of the 9th

24 Brigade units that were going to Herzegovina; do you agree with that?

25 A. When we arrived in Jablanica, we came to Zuka's headquarters, and

Page 8

1 they took us over there. We were told we would be staying in Jablanica,

2 not in Grabovica.

3 Q. But just to deal with my question. When you were taken from

4 Jablanica -- I'll put the question slightly differently, if I'm confusing

5 you. But when you went to -- went from Jablanica to Grabovica, you didn't

6 actually have a leader with you at all, did you?

7 A. I knew what I had to do. I knew what my job was. And I didn't

8 need anyone to command me.

9 Q. But the answer to my question is yes, there was a complete vacuum

10 as far as leadership of the 9th -- of the detachment of the 9th Brigade

11 goes; is that correct?

12 A. I don't know because my job was logistics. I just had to do my

13 job. Other people had their own tasks concerning the battlefield.

14 Q. Well, when -- you've indicated that when you got to Grabovica

15 that some troops had trouble getting accommodation and that they

16 complained to you -- do you remember giving evidence that they complained

17 to you personally, yesterday? Do you remember saying that?

18 A. Because I was in charge of logistics and they came to tell me

19 they had no accommodation. That's what I said, yes.

20 Q. But were you the leader of these troops who came to Grabovica?

21 A. I was not a leader. I was just an ordinary logistics man.

22 Q. Are you prepared to put a name on the person who was the leader

23 of your troops - I mean the 9th Brigade troops - in the village of

24 Grabovica?

25 A. I said that Zuti was the leader of that unit that set out toward

Page 9

1 Grabovica.

2 Q. Yes. And do you say Zuti was present in Grabovica when you

3 arrived there?

4 A. He arrived with us. We all arrived together, except for Delalic,

5 Rovcanin, and Kajevic.

6 Q. Yes. All right. And did the troops complain to Zuti that they

7 were being shut out of the houses, according to you?

8 A. They complained because I was in charge of logistics. I was

9 taking care of the mattresses and other things. That's why they came to

10 tell me there was no accommodation. They said, "You're in charge of

11 logistics. You see about it."

12 Q. And -- but according to you, you told them you would go back and

13 talk to Zuka. Is that correct?

14 A. I said I would check to see what was going on and what the

15 problem was.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Just excuse me a moment, please.

17 Q. All right. Very well. And is your position this, that you

18 didn't ask Zuti, the command -- your commanding officer at that point, any

19 questions about the accommodation of the troops?

20 A. I didn't ask him anything.

21 Q. And is there really such a person as Zuti?

22 A. There is. I see him in Sarajevo daily.

23 Q. I see. Very well. So what's his name?

24 A. Zuti.

25 Q. How long have you known Zuti?

Page 10

1 A. I've known him from the beginning of the war.

2 Q. 12 years or so; is that right?

3 A. Not 12 years. We met during the war. We would come across each

4 other, say, "Hello. How are you," and that's it.

5 Q. All right, Mr. Arnautovic. Now, I want to ask you some questions

6 about what happened when you arrived initially. You've indicated that the

7 troops got out of the -- the trucks or buses. Well, perhaps I should

8 clear that up. Were they buses or trucks that you were in?

9 A. By trucks, and there was a jeep.

10 Q. Yes. With Zuka's man in it; correct?

11 A. His was the jeep. It was brown and white.

12 Q. Yes. And that was the individual called Spaga; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And he was dressed in civilian clothes, including a black

15 leather jacket; is that right?

16 A. I can't say precisely what he was wearing.

17 Q. Was he approximately 30 to 40 years old at that time?

18 A. He looked as if he was about 35.

19 Q. Yes. Did he have dark hair?

20 A. It was kind of yellowish.

21 Q. Yes. And did he have with him a Heckler & Koch machine-gun, an

22 automatic gun?

23 A. I didn't pay attention to that. That was the free territory

24 where you could move around.

25 Q. Okay. The fact of the matter is that you were in logistics; is

Page 11

1 that right? You were a non-combatant by that stage of your career?

2 MR. RE: I object to that. That's -- that's actually a legal

3 question under the -- it's capable of legal interpretation according to

4 the laws of war. I think there's probably a better way of expressing what

5 my learned friend is trying to put to the witness.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that without this question you could

7 also ask the follow-up questions.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.

9 JUDGE LIU: You may skip this question.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.

11 Q. Well, Mr. Arnautovic, is the fact this: You weren't one of the

12 fighters anymore?

13 A. Since I was wounded, I no longer went into combat.

14 Q. All right. It was -- was it your habit or not to carry around an

15 automatic gun?

16 Perhaps I'll ask you the question a bit differently: In the

17 village of Grabovica where the Croat civilians lived, did you carry a

18 Heckler & Koch gun around with you or not?

19 A. No. I didn't need to carry weapons.

20 Q. All right. Now, when the troops arrived, you had with you

21 Mr. Spaga, one of whose jobs was to take your soldiers to their

22 accommodation -- sorry, I take that back. Don't worry about "your

23 soldiers." You had with you Mr. Spaga, one of whose jobs was to take

24 these soldiers to their accommodation; is that correct?

25 A. Four or five of them came with us because of the accommodation

Page 12

1 and they said, "You have the houses here. It's all been agreed with the

2 local people," about accommodation.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Can the witness please be shown P7. It's

4 Exhibit P7.

5 Q. Okay. All right. Now, having regard to that photograph there,

6 you indicated yesterday where the buses stopped. You'll see that the

7 houses in which 9th Brigade members were accommodated are all very close

8 to where the buses stopped. Correct?

9 A. When you look at the photograph, that's how it seems. But it

10 wasn't all that close.

11 Q. Well, it was as close as it seems in the photograph; is that

12 correct?

13 A. It was about 150 metres, 50 metres, 100 metres away from house to

14 house, because the houses were scattered.

15 Q. All right. Well, look, what I'm putting to you is that Spaga and

16 the other soldiers from Zuka's Unit went straight to those houses to put

17 in place the arrangements that had been made. Now, do you agree with

18 that?

19 A. The agreement was made earlier. That's what we were told or I

20 was told.

21 Q. That's not what I'm asking you, Mr. Arnautovic, as you well know.

22 Now, what I'm putting to you is that when you were there and in your

23 presence Zuka's soldiers went straight to those houses in order to

24 implement the agreement to accommodate you 9th Brigade troops there. Now,

25 do you agree with that, that's what they did?

Page 13

1 A. No, I don't. They didn't go to reach any kind of agreement.

2 Everything had already been arranged. They said, "Yes, you can stay

3 there. There are no problems about that."

4 Q. Yes. So what you're saying is that Zuka's troops, who were there

5 to help you, didn't relay to you or the 9th Brigade any difficulties with

6 these civilians; is that correct?

7 A. They didn't convey to us anything. They didn't say that they had

8 any problems with them, no.

9 Q. Okay. And looking at that house in the bottom left-hand corner,

10 the big white house, it's your sworn evidence, isn't it, that that had the

11 Solakovic troops in it; is that correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And it's also your sworn evidence that it didn't have any

14 civilians in it at the time that you came there; is that correct?

15 A. Where Solakovic was, I don't know where he was, but I know that

16 his units were there. I didn't see anybody else other than people from

17 his unit.

18 Q. Yes. And were you aware of the existence of a man called Marinko

19 Maric? Did you ever hear that name while you were in the village?

20 A. I never heard of that name, and I didn't know those people there

21 or anything like that. The only thing that I do know: I used to --

22 actually, I saw those two brothers. They were the only people I saw,

23 those two children.

24 Q. Let me ask you another name, Ante Maric. Do you see the house

25 down in the bottom square there? Do you see it's a divided house, two

Page 14

1 houses in one? Can you see that?

2 A. I see this house. This house has been rebuilt. It wasn't like

3 that. It was a little bit different. It was overgrown. It was rebuilt

4 after the war. I don't understand how they were knocked down. When we

5 left the village, all the houses were standing. They were intact.

6 Afterwards they had all been destroyed, after we left.

7 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... this, that that house in the

8 bottom left-hand corner was not there when you were there? Is that your

9 position today in court?

10 A. This house was there. I am stating that this house was there.

11 Q. Yes. All right. Well, if evidence is given that the Solakovic

12 troops were accommodated in another house perhaps 200 metres closer to

13 Jablanica, you would dispute that, wouldn't you? And I mean on the 8th of

14 September. You'd dispute that evidence, wouldn't you?

15 A. I would not dispute that, because Adnan Solakovic was in that

16 house with some of his people, and once he met Sefer Halilovic there in

17 that house.

18 Q. I see. And what date did he meet Sefer Halilovic in that house

19 there?

20 A. I think it was -- I can't tell you exactly. It was either

21 the 11th or the 12th, because I remember some of us stayed behind; some of

22 Adnan Solakovic's fighters and this journalist, Sevko Hodzic was there.

23 He was reporting. He said, "Let me take a photo of you," and I took an

24 automatic rifle from Sefer's brother. So we all took these automatic

25 rifles and we had our picture taken.

Page 15

1 Q. Yes, that's correct. In fact, what I put to you is that there

2 was a meeting days after the killings took place in Grabovica at which

3 Sefer Halilovic attended with Sevko Hodzic and there were other commanders

4 there too, whilst a battle took place down in the Dreznica area. Do you

5 agree with that?

6 A. I don't know anything about that. I can recall only the things

7 that I do know. I can't tell you what I don't know. I did see Sevko

8 Hodzic there. He said he was a journalist from Oslobodjenje and he was

9 reporting about the progress of the fighting.

10 Q. And you had no difficulty identifying Sefer Halilovic on that

11 occasion, did you? Yes or no?

12 A. Identify him in Grabovica, you mean?

13 Q. On this occasion with Sevko Hodzic in Grabovica. Do you agree

14 with me about -- look, I'll put the question to you because I don't want

15 it to be broken up.

16 Do you agree that on this occasion when you saw Sefer Halilovic

17 with Sevko Hodzic you had no difficulty whatsoever in identifying Sefer

18 Halilovic on that occasion? Correct?

19 A. No, I didn't, because they said, "The commander has arrived," and

20 the fighters knew who he was.

21 Q. Just a moment. Mr. Arnautovic, do you agree with this: That in

22 not one single statement, whether it's been made to the cantonal court,

23 the police, or to the ICTY investigators, in not one single statement did

24 you state that Sefer Halilovic was present when Karic made this threat

25 that you allege? Do you agree with that?

Page 16

1 A. I am not saying that he was there. Even now I can't remember. I

2 just know what Vehbija Karic said, and he was there for the 4th and

3 the 5th.

4 Q. I want to ask you a question about specific people. I started to

5 ask you this yesterday, and we ran out of time, and now I'm going to put

6 the names to you. Zicro Suljevic, was he there with Karic the day this

7 supposed threat was made?

8 A. I heard of them before by their names, but I never actually knew

9 them personally.

10 Q. Well, I have to deal with them one by one. Rifat Bilajac, was he

11 present there when Karic made this supposed threat on the 8th of

12 September?

13 A. I am repeating again, I never met those people personally. I

14 knew Vehbija because he was in Sarajevo. I never met those other people.

15 I don't know who they were. I never met them before. I just know -- or I

16 just knew that they were from the corps.

17 Q. So Alic, also known as Soko. Was he there on the 8th of

18 September when Karic made this alleged threat?

19 A. Again, I am repeating: You can ask me, but I didn't know those

20 people personally. I never met them, other than Vehbija Karic, because I

21 knew him from Sarajevo.

22 Q. Finally, Namik Dzankovic, was he present on the 8th of September

23 when Karic made the alleged threat?

24 A. Again, I am repeating what I said. I didn't know him personally.

25 I didn't really pay that much attention to him or the others.

Page 17

1 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, I want to ask you a question about this Karic

2 threat that you allege. Did that really happen at all?

3 A. When the fighters complained, then Karic said -- they were

4 members from different units. They were Croats, they were Serbs, just

5 like we had in our unit. And when they said, "We can't do this. We don't

6 have any accommodation," he said, "What do you mean? Whoever complains

7 about that or doesn't meet -- doesn't help you out, then you can just deal

8 with them summarily."

9 Q. Since --

10 A. Throw them into the Neretva.

11 Q. Since you knew Mr. Karic from Sarajevo, you would know that he

12 was a very experienced staff officer; is that correct?

13 A. I considered all of those from the ex-JNA as traitors and

14 enemies.

15 Q. Suitable to make a false allegation against perhaps? Yes or no?

16 A. No. These are not false accusations because some of them had

17 fought on the Croat theatre of war, in the Croat theatre of war, and then

18 afterwards they came to Bosnia.

19 Q. Well, I have to put a lengthy passage to you now, and you'll have

20 to forgive me.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Would the Court just excuse me for a moment.

22 Q. Would you just excuse me my delay, Mr. Arnautovic. I apologise

23 for it.

24 Mr. Arnautovic, I have to put a passage to you now, and it's a

25 reasonably lengthy passage. But if I don't give you the whole thing, it

Page 18

1 won't allow you to understand the question I ask, so I'm going to read it

2 to you now.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I'm reading now from the statement

4 made by this witness to the investigators of this Tribunal, and the date

5 of the interview is the 7th of October, 1999, and I'm reading from the

6 third page of it.

7 Q. Okay. "When we arrived at Grabovica, we noticed that there were

8 some other military units in Grabovica which had arrived before us. On

9 the other side of the Neretva River there were a lot of the former

10 detainees which had earlier been released from a Croat camp. I think

11 there were about 500 of them on the other side of the river."

12 And I'll stop reading for a moment. Does that accord with your

13 memory so far?

14 A. According to what I remember, I never said 5.000. There were

15 about five to six hundred people there from the camps.

16 Q. Well, Mr. Arnautovic, that's, in fairness to you, precisely what

17 you said in this statement here. You said 500, so ...

18 A. But you are saying that I said 5.000.

19 Q. No, well, I'm reluctant to say that it was a translation issue,

20 but I assure you that you said "500" then, you say "500" now, and I

21 thought I put "500" to you. So we're in furious agreement that it's 500.

22 Okay?

23 A. No. No. The interpreter who is interpreting for me, I heard

24 them say "5.000."

25 Q. Okay.

Page 19

1 A. No problem.

2 Q. Okay. Well, there's no problem.

3 Anyway, I'll press on now. And this is in 1999 you're making

4 this statement: "Ramiz Delalic, Fikret Kajevic, and Malco Rovcanin did

5 not arrive with us at Grabovica because they had to go to Konjic to obtain

6 some ammunition for our soldiers."

7 Now, does that truly state the position?

8 A. I said that they had stayed behind to buy weapons for Sarajevo

9 because there were a lot of weapons there, and that's true.

10 Q. Let me proceed: "At about 9.00 a.m. Vehbija Karic and three to

11 four other high-ranking officers from the General Staff of the Bosnian

12 army arrived at Grabovica. I know that other officers were also from the

13 General Staff because I know them by appearance. Vehbija Karic asked the

14 soldiers how our trip to the place was, what kind of problems we had, what

15 problems we had billeting in the houses."

16 Now, is that all accurate so far?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Okay. Now I go on: "Vehbija Karic said that there were empty

19 houses in which we could stay and that those -- and that there were houses

20 inhabited by Croat people. He said we could stay with the villagers

21 because everything had been agreed with them beforehand. He also added

22 that soldiers even could wash themselves in the houses because there was

23 water there."

24 Now, is that accurate?

25 A. Yes.

Page 20

1 Q. I'll go on: "Other people who had come together with Vehbija

2 Karic also asked us how our trip to Grabovica was, whether we'd had any

3 problems with the trip, whether we had any trouble with -- problems with

4 finding places in which to stay. They confirmed that everything had been

5 agreed to with the owners of the houses and that we could stay with Croat

6 people in their houses and be comfortable."

7 Now, is that all accurate so far?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. "Almost at the same time a lot of the former detainees from

10 the -- from the other side of the river came to us and started asking us

11 to give them something to eat because they had nothing. They also started

12 to tell their stories to soldiers, how Croat soldiers in the camp had

13 tortured them. Their stories were horrible, how Croat soldiers used to

14 use needles and other devices to torture the Muslims in the camp. The

15 former detainees told us that some Muslims had been killed in the camp.

16 We could see ourselves that the former detainees were tortured because

17 some of them only weighed 30 kilogrammes. The former detainees looked

18 terrible."

19 Is that all accurate so far?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. "The former detainees told us that they had not had food for four

22 or five days. They were all very hungry. Our soldiers shared our food

23 with the former detainees we took wish us from Sarajevo for two

24 ready-to-eat, lunch packets each, and we gave those lunch packets to the

25 former detainees. The appearance of the former detainees, the way they

Page 21

1 looked, affected our soldiers very much. The soldiers became very upset

2 and angry because of what the former detainees told them."

3 Is that correct?

4 A. The -- some people were told what had happened. A lot of things

5 were said by everybody.

6 Q. I understand that.

7 A. In front of these soldiers.

8 Q. But what you've put in this statement so far that I've read out

9 to you is accurate; correct?

10 A. People got in touch with them. Naturally, they were there and

11 everything. So of course I said that. That's how it was.

12 Q. Okay. I understand. Now, to go on: "Actual billeting soldiers

13 into the houses started in the evening. I myself with two soldiers

14 occupied an empty house. Those were (redacted) and Nedim Hajric, later

15 he was killed, who were together with me in the same house. A

16 reconnaissance group, commander of which was a commander called Zuti, also

17 occupied an empty house. I think there were about ten soldiers together

18 with Zuti. I didn't know in which -- in what houses other soldiers from

19 our brigade were billeted. I was very tired after the trip. Very soon I

20 went to bed."

21 Now, is that accurate?

22 A. That is accurate. But it's not true that we were being billeted

23 during the night. We were being billeted during the day. This did not

24 happen in the evening. I went into a house during the day and not in the

25 evening, as you say.

Page 22

1 Q. Why did you say to the ICTY -- the ICTY investigator that "actual

2 billeting soldiers in the houses started in the evening" if it's not true?

3 A. I don't know to whom I said that. I provided the statement once.

4 Then there was this investigator in Sarajevo, Nikolai. He was talking.

5 He thought that he could speak our language, so he was speaking and

6 interpreting. So I don't know how he understood what I said. I don't

7 know.

8 Q. Yes. But there was present also a proper interpreter called

9 Kanita Halilovic - no relation, I hasten to add of the accused man - is

10 that correct?

11 A. The interpreter was present, but he behaved as if he understood

12 our language and as if he could talk. I mean, he was speaking Bosnian.

13 Q. Yes. I'll go on: "Next morning Vehbija Karic and the same

14 high-ranking officers from the General Staff came to Grabovica. Vehbija

15 and others officers were staying in front of the house in which I stayed.

16 In front of the house in which I stayed was another house in which

17 soldiers from Adnan Solakovic's units were placed. Soon after the arrival

18 of Vehbija Karic and other high-ranking officers, soldiers from our

19 brigade and other units gathered in the house in which I stayed. I think

20 there were about 100 soldiers in front of the house in which I stayed. I

21 went out of the house and stood at the front. Vehbija Karic asked whether

22 we had any problems, whether we had good rest in the village. Soldiers

23 started to complain. Some of them had to sleep open in the meadow because

24 Croat people of the village had not allowed them to stay in their houses.

25 A lot of soldiers complained. They complained at almost the same period

Page 23

1 of time. I could say that they said that in one voice. It sounded like

2 the complaint of a crowd. Vehbija said, "You sleep in those houses. If

3 someone protests, throw them right away into the Neretva." Having heard

4 that, I left Grabovica for Jablanica."

5 Is that accurate?

6 MR. RE: Just one thing was left out.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

9 MR. RE: Perhaps my friend could just put the little three-word

10 passage between "throw them right away into the river" and where it

11 says "soldiers replied" to make it more accurate.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, of course I will.

13 Q. Pardon me. "The soldiers replied, Okay." Now, I think it will

14 be appreciated what the purpose of this question is just the same.

15 Mr. Arnautovic, is that accurate what I've read out, that Vehbija

16 Karic came back the second morning, made a second interview with the

17 soldiers, and it was on the second occasion that he made this comment

18 about throw them into the Neretva to which the soldiers replied, "Okay"?

19 A. I remember very well that Vehbija Karic, when he came, when he

20 said those words, "Throw them summarily into the Neretva River," that's

21 what he said. I don't know how to tell you that in any other words.

22 Q. You don't have to tell us that in any other words. What I'm

23 asking you to respond to is the question: Is it accurate that Vehbija

24 Karic came back a second time after the soldiers had to sleep out in a

25 meadow and made a complaint about that? Is that accurate or is it not?

Page 24

1 A. I cannot remember and cannot confirm this. I can remember seeing

2 him once, but I don't remember seeing him twice. It's something that I

3 cannot confirm. This happened six or seven years ago. But I remember

4 that he was there, that he spoke those words, and I stand by that.

5 Q. I understand you stand by that. Could I ask you a question:

6 Have you been told to stand by that?

7 A. To me -- nobody said anything to me. I'm just saying what I

8 heard with my own ears and because I saw him.

9 Q. So is the position this: You've got no explanation for the

10 change between your position to the investigator where you've told him

11 there were two visits by Karic and that the threat was made on the second

12 one the following morning after a sleep in the meadow and your current

13 position now, which is that it was in the morning of the very day that you

14 arrived.

15 A. The investigator who was there, Nikolai, made a lot of mistakes

16 and he missed a lot of things with everybody. Perhaps it was some kind of

17 failure on his part or something that he missed or a mistake that he made.

18 It could be anything.

19 Q. But, of course, the interpreter, Kanita Halilovic, was there, who

20 did speak Bosnian; is it correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Would it give you a terrible shock to know that (redacted) --

23 I withdraw that.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I'd seek to go into private

25 session.

Page 27

1 Are there any problems?" And that's the way all the soldiers reacted.

2 Q. Did the soldiers say to him, "Look, go and check for yourself.

3 We can't get in," or words to that effect? In other words, did they

4 invite Mr. Karic to go and look?

5 A. People complained. Nobody did anything. I only know that when

6 he said what he said, that they should just summarily be thrown into the

7 river, I don't know if they did anything about it.

8 Q. No, no, no.

9 A. On that particular issue.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... my question wasn't clear

11 there. It may be the fault of the question.

12 Did the soldiers invite Karic to go and check for himself, to go

13 check?

14 A. I don't remember hearing anything like that. All I know is that

15 people behaved differently after what he said.

16 Q. Okay. But just sticking with the question I'm asking, did you

17 say this to the cantonal court in 1998: "By that opportunity, Vehbija

18 asked soldiers how the accommodation was going on, and the soldiers

19 answered that the civilian did not allow accommodation into their houses.

20 Vehbija said that the accommodation was agreed, and the soldiers said to

21 him to go check it, and Vehbija said, 'who opposes to receive you, throw

22 him by short treatment into the Neretva'."

23 MR. RE: Before the witness answers the question, I just asked

24 Your Honours for a policy direction here, and I notice -- recall Your

25 Honours issuing a ruling in relation to the Prosecution's use of

Page 28

1 statements that were unsigned or weren't -- witnesses who weren't to be

2 called. This particular statement, as I understand it, is an unsigned

3 statement, if my learned friend is referring to the statement of December

4 1998. It may be, Your Honours, as other Trial Chambers do, take the view

5 that a witness cannot be impeached with an unsigned statement.

6 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's a very complicated question, and I believe

7 that documents used in the direct examination and the cross-examination

8 are different.

9 In the cross-examination, as in this case, this kind of document

10 could be used because we have no doubt there is a record in that cantonal

11 court, so the reliability of this piece of the document is not in any

12 doubt at all. And the witness has the full right to agree or disagree

13 whatever is written or said in that document, as he did before.

14 So you may proceed, Mr. Morrissey.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. Because of the delay there, Mr. Arnautovic, I'll read you the

17 passage again and then I'll ask you a question about it. Okay? The

18 passage I want to put to you reads like this -- sorry, I've now lost the

19 page. "By that opportunity, Vehbija asked soldiers how the accommodation

20 was going on, and the soldiers answered that the civilian did not allow

21 accommodation into their houses. Vehbija said that the accommodation was

22 agreed, and soldiers said to him to go check it, and Vehbija said 'whoever

23 opposes to receive you, throw him by short treatment into the Neretva'."

24 Now, I'm focussing on that passage where you said "soldiers said

25 to him to go check it."

Page 29

1 Now, is that the truth? Is that what soldiers said to him?

2 A. I don't remember that. I know they told us that accommodation

3 had been agreed. I stand by that. When Vehbija arrived, when they

4 said, "There's no accommodation," and complained, he said, "Throw them

5 summarily into the Neretva." I stand by that. As for that court, I know

6 I didn't spend so much as five minutes there, hardly five minutes, and I

7 have no respect for their methods of work.

8 Q. Yes, all right. Well, now I want to ask you some questions about

9 where the individual people were ultimately billeted. Mr. Husic was

10 billeted with you; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Where was Mr. Mehanovic billeted?

13 A. I don't know where he was billeted.

14 Q. Where was Mr. Malicovic [phoen] billeted?

15 A. I don't know these names. I don't know all their names. I know

16 their nicknames.

17 Q. Where was Musa Hota billeted?

18 A. I don't know. They were all over the village, in various houses.

19 I came and went. I didn't really pay attention.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P3.

21 Q. Do you see at the -- do you have that picture in front of you

22 now, Mr. Arnautovic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Do you see at the left-hand end of the village the tall white

25 house in which you say members of the Solakovic unit were placed?

Page 30

1 A. On the left-hand side, yes, and to the right is the one where I

2 was.

3 Q. Yes. You can see the -- the white house in which you were

4 placed. Very well.

5 In relation to the white house in which you were placed, where

6 was Musa Hota placed?

7 A. I don't know where he was placed, nor can I say he was here or he

8 was there. One, I didn't pay attention. I didn't go to see them.

9 Whoever needed something would come to the house where I was and be issued

10 with whatever it was.

11 Q. Where was Fikret Kajevic based?

12 A. Fikret Kajevic was in Konjic and Jablanica.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues]... Hukalic [phoen], where was he

14 based?

15 A. I don't know. He was somewhere in the village. I don't know

16 exactly in which house.

17 Q. What about Nihad Vlahovljak? Where was he?

18 A. I can give you the same reply for each of them. I really don't

19 know who was in what house.

20 Q. Could we go back, please, to P7.

21 Do you have that photograph?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Do you see the brown house directly in the middle left of the

24 photograph?

25 A. Yes.

Page 31

1 Q. Who was in that house?

2 A. I don't know. Our soldiers were there, five or six of them, but

3 I can't remember exactly who they were.

4 Q. Well, that's 50 metres from your house, and I'd ask you to

5 exercise your memory, please. Who was there?

6 A. I can't recall because I didn't go round the village. I just

7 went to the house and I went back and forth between Jablanica and

8 Grabovica. I didn't walk around the village and look into the houses to

9 see who was where.

10 Q. Yesterday you told us that you went backwards and forwards

11 several times that afternoon after Karic made his comment. Is that

12 accurate?

13 A. Could you repeat your question.

14 Q. Yesterday you said that you went backwards and forwards several

15 times to Jablanica after Karic made his comment. Is that accurate?

16 A. I came and went. I can't recall now. Too much time has elapsed.

17 But I know well that I came and went.

18 Q. Very well. When you came back after the first trip, were there

19 still civilians alive in the village that you could see?

20 A. The first day when I arrived, there were villagers around,

21 civilians. I recall that well.

22 Q. All right. And on the -- but you've indicated that you came and

23 went on a number of occasions.

24 The next time that you came and went on the afternoon of the 8th

25 of September, when you came back to Grabovica after that second trip, were

Page 32

1 there still civilians alive at that stage?

2 A. I can't tell you precisely. I don't know anything about what

3 happened. Later on I only heard what had happened.

4 Q. But did you see any civilians alive that second time you came

5 back on the afternoon of the 8th of September?

6 A. I didn't pay attention. I just remember those two children. And

7 later on I don't remember anything else.

8 Q. But just stay with the 8th of September at the moment, if you

9 don't mind. On that occasion, is your memory that there were no civilians

10 at all when you came back after your second trip?

11 A. I'm telling you, I didn't pay attention to the civilians. I

12 didn't really look at the civilians.

13 Q. I'm asking you a more fundamental question, and that is: Were

14 there any civilians at that point?

15 A. I'm telling you again I didn't pay attention. I didn't look to

16 see who was a civilian, who was where and who was doing what.

17 Q. What clothes was your unit wearing?

18 A. Uniforms.

19 Q. Were the civilians wearing uniforms?

20 A. Which civilians?

21 Q. The Croat civilians who were in the village when you arrived.

22 A. When I arrived, I didn't see them wearing uniforms, no.

23 Q. Well, now I come back to my question: When you came back after

24 the second trip into Jablanica, what was the position? Were there any

25 civilians wandering around not wearing uniform?

Page 33

1 A. It was the former detainees who were walking around. They were

2 in civilian clothes.

3 Q. When you came back after the third trip, were there any Croat

4 civilians alive at that point, to your observation?

5 A. I only heard that there were no Croat civilians around when I

6 found those children. As for everything else, I didn't know.

7 Q. After you came back to Grabovica the final time, on the evening

8 of the 8th, did you go and sleep in the white house that you've indicated

9 in photograph number 7, P7?

10 A. Yes, I did spend the night there. I went to bed late.

11 Q. Approximately what time did you arrive in Jablanica that last

12 time? So before you went to bed, how long were you in -- I'm sorry, I

13 misspoke there, so I'll start the question again.

14 When you came back to Grabovica to sleep the night, how long

15 passed before you went to bed?

16 A. I never looked at my watch, nor did I pay attention to the time.

17 It was wartime. I was concerned with surviving from day to day. I didn't

18 look at my watch and think about the time or wonder what time it was.

19 Q. Did you stay up socialising with people or did you go straight to

20 bed?

21 A. No, I was tired. I was exhausted, so I went to sleep.

22 Q. I see. And you didn't hear any screaming?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Or any shooting?

25 A. No.

Page 34

1 Q. Was Elvedin Husic with you in that house when you arrived home or

2 not?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was he already there or did he arrive with you?

5 A. He was there in Grabovica. When we arrived and found

6 accommodation, he remained there.

7 Q. But I'm talking about in the white house after you came back from

8 Jablanica for the final time that evening. Was he already there or did he

9 come home a bit later?

10 A. He was there. He and Hajric.

11 Q. Did he tell you he'd been out drinking alcohol with any people?

12 A. No, he didn't say anything.

13 Q. He didn't mention alcohol?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Ramiz Delalic didn't permit the soldiers to drink alcohol in

16 particular in situations like that, when they were about to go into battle

17 in the next few days; is that correct?

18 A. Alcohol was never allowed to be used, either in the barracks or

19 anywhere else. If people left the barracks on leave and went elsewhere,

20 then nobody could control what they were doing, neither he nor anybody

21 else.

22 Q. No. No. But to your understanding, Ramiz would not tolerate

23 drinking alcohol in the village of Grabovica; is that correct?

24 A. No, he would not tolerate it. He would not allow it.

25 Q. But the difficulty was, according to you, that Ramiz wasn't

Page 35

1 actually there, was he?

2 A. There was no problem at all.

3 Q. Because you say that as far as you know, there was no drinking;

4 correct?

5 A. I know about Elvedin Husic, but how do I know whether anyone was

6 drinking or not? I didn't smell their breath to find out whether they'd

7 been drinking. I wasn't competent to monitor whether they were drinking

8 or not.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, is that an appropriate moment?

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, if you've finished that drinking problems. Yes.

11 We'll have 20 minutes' break and we'll resume at ten minutes to

12 3.00, I think -- right? To 4.00. I'm sorry.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 3.53 p.m.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: [Microphone not activated] Thank you, Your

17 Honour.

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Pardon me.

20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Arnautovic.

21 I now want to take you to the 9th of September. What time did

22 you wake up in the morning of the 9th of September, that is, the day after

23 you arrived.

24 A. It was in the morning. It might have been around 8.00, but I

25 can't be precise.

Page 36

1 Q. Very well. And did you then make two more trips in to Jablanica

2 and back again?

3 A. Yes. I went to Jablanica and back, and then I went to Jablanica

4 and stayed.

5 Q. Well, about what time did you come back to Grabovica after that

6 first trip in to Jablanica?

7 A. I don't know what time it was.

8 Q. Well, let's try to get an estimate as best you can. You woke up

9 approximately 8.00 -- I understand you're not specifying exactly 8.00.

10 You woke up at approximately 8.00. And I take it you then got up, had

11 breakfast; is that correct?

12 A. It wasn't really breakfast. I can't normally eat breakfast.

13 Q. Okay. Did you have a coffee in the morning before you left?

14 A. No. The first thing I do is take something sweet and then light

15 a cigarette.

16 Q. Okay. Well, on this -- on this occasion, did you wake up in the

17 white house and take something sweet and light a cigarette?

18 A. In the white house, I woke up, in the house I mentioned, and I

19 stand by that.

20 Q. Yes. That's okay. You had a sweet and a cigarette; is that

21 right?

22 A. I've been doing that ever since I started smoking when I was ten.

23 Q. And Elvedin Husic was right there with you at that time; is that

24 correct?

25 A. Yes, he was there. I didn't pay attention to whether he was

Page 37

1 asleep or not.

2 Q. Did you receive a visit from a man named Lujinovic [phoen],

3 Sulejman?

4 A. I don't remember.

5 Q. Do you know the man I'm talking about, Mr. Lujinovic?

6 A. I don't remember many of the men. A long time has gone by. Some

7 of them have been killed. In fact, a lot of them have been killed.

8 Q. Did Mr. Lujinovic come in to the white house and tell you and

9 Husic that something bad had happened?

10 A. No, I don't remember that. I don't remember anybody coming and

11 saying something like that.

12 Q. See, according to you, you got quite a shock on the following

13 day, the 10th, when you heard the story of the boys and realised that some

14 crimes might have been committed. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes. When I heard from the boys, when I heard what they said,

16 that's when I learned everything that had happened.

17 Q. All right. So that after your coffee and your sweet, did you

18 then drive in to Jablanica?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you drive in a jeep that had been lent to you by Zuka's

21 Units?

22 A. I don't remember. I know I was driving around in that jeep and

23 there was another car. I don't remember what it was called. I remember

24 well that the jeep was brown and white. It had a white roof and it had --

25 it was brown on the sides and it used petrol.

Page 38

1 Q. When you're speaking of this other car, you're not speaking of

2 any car associated with Ramiz Delalic, are you?

3 A. I don't know. Ask him. He wasn't there until those children

4 turned up.

5 Q. Yes. That's okay. So what you say is that -- well, just a

6 moment. When you referred to another car just a moment ago, are you

7 talking about a car associated with Mr. Delalic or are you talking about

8 some different car?

9 A. I'm not talking about any car that had anything to do with Ramiz

10 Delalic, because he didn't come to Grabovica until those children were

11 found.

12 Q. Okay. So now I'll come back to the question: Which vehicle did

13 you drive in to Jablanica when you went in this morning of the 9th?

14 A. I don't remember what vehicle it was or what its name was.

15 Q. Very well. And did you there collect some lunch packets to be

16 distributed among the soldiers?

17 A. Yes, from Zuka's base, from the headquarters.

18 Q. Are these lunch packets, are they in small metal containers?

19 A. These were -- I don't know. These were the best-packed lunches.

20 They -- they were about 100 of such packets. But they contained

21 everything, these meals.

22 Q. I understand. And you brought those back to Grabovica; is that

23 correct? In the vehicle, whichever one it was?

24 A. I brought the lunch packets. I remember it well that they were

25 brought in this brown-white jeep. It was quite big and you could fit a

Page 39

1 lot of things in it.

2 Q. And when you brought back those lunch packets and arrived in

3 Grabovica, approximately what time was it?

4 A. I don't know what time it was. I didn't really pay attention to

5 the time. It was war, so I wasn't really that aware of what time it was.

6 Q. Okay. Well, even so, I'm going to see if we can arrive at an

7 estimate. Did you leave Grabovica at about -- approximately - and I

8 understand you can't be precise - but approximately half past 8.00 in

9 order to go in to Jablanica to get the lunches?

10 A. I can't really tell you precisely. I really don't know. I

11 wasn't paying attention to the time. I know that most of the people were

12 asleep.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. At the time.

15 Q. I understand. Well, when you say most of them were asleep, what

16 you mean is no one seemed to be moving. Is that accurate?

17 A. When I was leaving, there were some soldiers walking around, but

18 one didn't really pay attention to that.

19 Q. All right. It took you about 15 minutes, I suggest, to cover the

20 distance between Grabovica and Jablanica; is that right?

21 A. I don't know exactly. I couldn't tell you. It depends on the

22 kind of driving involved. I really don't know.

23 Q. Just think back to this. You were driving along a relatively

24 well-sealed road and you were not under fire and you were in a jeep. Now,

25 do you agree that it took about 10 to 15 minutes to drive that distance?

Page 40

1 A. Not 10 to 15 minutes, because I don't really enjoy speeding or

2 fast driving because why do I want to get hit with a bullet? Why would I

3 want to crash into the Neretva?

4 Q. If the evidence otherwise proves that the distance between

5 Jablanica and Grabovica is about 12 to 13 k's, can you indicate

6 approximately how long it actually did take you - you being the man in the

7 car who drove this distance - to cover that distance?

8 A. If I'm driving in a normal pace without speeding, I would need

9 about 20 minutes. If I were going 80 kilometres per hour.

10 Q. All right. Well, I understand it's unfair to press you to be

11 precise about those speeds, but it's fair to say this, isn't it, that you

12 would have been in Jablanica by half an hour at the most? Correct?

13 A. You don't need a half an hour to reach Zuka's headquarters. With

14 normal driving, you can reach it in 20 minutes.

15 Q. Okay. And did you drive at a speed that was basically normal

16 speed on this occasion?

17 A. At a normal speed.

18 Q. Okay. At Zuka's base, how long did it take you to load up the

19 lunch packets?

20 A. I stayed there -- sometimes you would stay there. There was a

21 coffee bar there next to the headquarters. You'd have coffee, things like

22 that.

23 Q. So on this occasion -- we'll take it step by step. How long did

24 it take to load up the -- the lunch packets? Was that a 10-minute job or

25 a 15-minute job?

Page 41

1 A. Because there are more people there you could load it up in five

2 minutes.

3 Q. Okay. And after you -- and is that what happened on this

4 occasion?

5 A. You mean what happened?

6 Q. What I'm asking you is: On this occasion when you loaded up the

7 lunch packets, did it take you about five minutes, given the help that you

8 got?

9 A. I will only tell you one thing: I didn't look at the time. I

10 wasn't paying attention to the time, and I wasn't in a hurry. There was

11 no need for me to pay attention to the time. So it took as long as it

12 took. I won't answer any more such questions because I'm not in a race or

13 anything. If you look at your questions, it would seem that -- as if I

14 knew something, but I wasn't really -- there was no need for me to hurry

15 up.

16 Q. Just bear with me, please, Mr. Arnautovic. After you'd loaded up

17 the packages, did you stop and have a cup of coffee?

18 A. I don't remember specifically. I went back and forth to

19 Jablanica on that day a few times, and then I stayed, and then the next

20 day I saw those two children. I really don't remember what I had for

21 lunch yesterday, never mind about something that happened 13 years ago.

22 Q. Okay. But just stick with the questions. After you had loaded

23 up the -- the lunches and possibly had a cup of coffee, you drove back to

24 Grabovica, didn't you?

25 A. I would -- went back and forth. That's what happened, like I

Page 42

1 said it. I went back and forth two or three times and then I spent that

2 night in Jablanica. I stayed there.

3 Q. Yes. And when you came back after this first trip on the morning

4 of the 9th, you arrived back in Jablanica -- back in Grabovica, I'm sorry,

5 you came back to Grabovica no more than one hour after you set out; is

6 that correct?

7 A. I am saying again I didn't pay attention to the time, so I can't

8 really reply to that question.

9 Q. Well, do you agree that it would have been no more than two hours

10 after you left?

11 A. I cannot really answer to any time-related questions. I really

12 wasn't thinking in terms of time. I wasn't paying attention to that. I

13 wasn't really interested how much time I needed for what. There was no

14 need for me to be in a hurry. There was no -- there were no actions going

15 on at that time so that there would be a need to rush in any way.

16 Q. That's what we are asking you about, Mr. Arnautovic.

17 When you came back to the village, I put it to you positively

18 that you had been away for a maximum period of two hours. Now, do you

19 disagree with that? Do you say you would have been away for longer than

20 two hours?

21 A. I'm saying again I can't really look at it from the time point of

22 view. I wasn't paying attention to that. I really don't know how long it

23 took, and I'm repeating this again.

24 Q. Yes. But you were back in that village after the first trip by

25 the middle of the morning; is that correct?

Page 43

1 A. In the middle of the morning? I don't know what that means to

2 you, the middle of the morning.

3 Q. You tell me what it means to you, "the middle of the morning."

4 A. According to me, "morning" is in the morning, at 7.00. When it

5 gets light, then it's morning. Because we would express that maybe in

6 different terms.

7 Q. Did you distribute any of those lunches to the soldiers when you

8 got back?

9 A. No, I didn't. I left it at the house where I was staying because

10 that young man Hajric was there to help out, to look after that, to give

11 them out, and I had one book where I was keeping records of what was given

12 to whom by first and last name. But then during the arrest and review of

13 the documents, that book disappeared.

14 Q. Well, Mr. Arnautovic, some people have given evidence in this

15 court about killings that were going on in the village at that time. But

16 what you're saying is that when you were there, you saw no signs of any

17 killings; is that correct?

18 A. No signs on that day. There were no signs that there were any

19 killings or that anything happened. And there was no talk amongst the

20 soldiers either, because you would have heard something. That's what

21 soldiers are like, our soldiers, and people are like that as well. There

22 would always be some talk about something like that.

23 Q. You say there wasn't any; correct?

24 A. Not on that day. Nobody said anything. You couldn't hear

25 anything. There were no whispers or anything like that. Until -- right

Page 44

1 until the time that those children were found.

2 Q. Okay. And you can give that evidence in this court because you

3 spoke to some of the other soldiers; correct?

4 A. Not some other soldiers. Soldiers who had been staying there. I

5 don't know what you mean "others." It's all the same. It was all the

6 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

7 Q. Tell us the names of some of the people that you spoke to on the

8 9th of September in Grabovica.

9 A. I didn't speak to anybody on the 9th of September in the evening

10 because I wasn't there that evening.

11 Q. I'm --

12 A. And during the day, it was just in passing.

13 Q. Okay. And which people was it you spoke to just in passing

14 during the day?

15 A. There was this young man Hajric, there was Husic. Perhaps one of

16 them would have said something had anything happened. Nobody mentioned

17 anything. Nobody said anything. Nothing happened.

18 Q. And you've mentioned Husic. You knew Husic quite well, didn't

19 you?

20 A. Well, we were in the unit together, in the brigade.

21 Q. Yes. But a bit more than that. You were friends with Husic

22 then, as you are now; is that correct? Well, I'll break it up. You were

23 friends with him then; correct?

24 A. No, I wasn't before. Only when we knew each other during the

25 war. Before the war, I had some other friends, different friends, and

Page 45

1 life was different, in the same way that my life is different now. So I

2 have a different life now and different friends.

3 Q. In September of 1993, you were friends with Mr. Husic; correct?

4 A. We were all friends. We were all one. Everyone fought for

5 everybody else, fought, died, and saved others. Nobody left anyone

6 behind. Not a wounded man or a killed man was left behind.

7 Q. And to your knowledge, Mr. Husic was also good friends with

8 another man called Mr. Mehanovic in September of 1993; correct?

9 A. I am telling you now, we were all friends. We were all one. A

10 bullet waited for each one of us. Each one of us had the same fate. We

11 were all the same. There was no question of a person -- this or that

12 person being a friend. A friend is something different. A friend is

13 something special.

14 Q. Did you know Musa Hota?

15 A. Yes, I did. He was there in the brigade, in our brigade.

16 Actually, he came from a different brigade. He was transferred to our

17 brigade.

18 Q. Did he arrive in your brigade on or about the 15th of July in

19 1993?

20 A. I know that he arrived in 1993, but I don't know exactly when

21 that was.

22 Q. But it was only a matter of one or two months before this

23 operation took place. Is that accurate?

24 A. Yes, I think it was thereabouts. Perhaps he came over for two or

25 three months. I just know that he was transferred. That's all.

Page 46

1 Q. That's okay. He was a pretty tough guy, wasn't he, Mr. Hota?

2 A. Well, it depends on who is forming this opinion.

3 Q. Well, what's your opinion?

4 A. He was a pretty big fool. I could put it that way.

5 Q. But he was a big, strong fighter with a bad, bad temper; is that

6 correct?

7 A. I don't know. There was talk of all sorts in Sarajevo. But as

8 far as every person was concerned, each person was a good fighter. Some

9 of them had -- some people had a good opinion of him and some of them

10 praised him. Some of them criticised him.

11 Q. Yes. Well, I'm just asking you to be limited to what you

12 actually saw yourself. And the question is: Did you see whether he

13 behaved himself properly when Ramiz Delalic was around?

14 A. When do you mean, when he was around? Are you talking about

15 Grabovica or ...

16 Q. I'm not trying to trick you in relation to Ramiz and Grabovica.

17 I'm just asking you generally speaking what you observed of Musa Hota is

18 that when he was in the company of Ramiz Delalic, then he would behave

19 himself properly. Is that correct?

20 A. Not him. Everybody had to behave properly when they were in the

21 barracks. As far as behaviour outside of the barracks, that is something

22 that I don't know.

23 Q. I see. Did you see the man -- during your trips on the 9th, did

24 you see the man you've -- whose name you don't remember who had the

25 nickname Zuti on any occasion?

Page 47

1 A. He was present when Ramiz lined up the soldiers, when he lined

2 up -- assembled the unit. So that he could see if the children would

3 recognise anyone or identify anyone.

4 Q. Did he get a special yelling-at by Ramiz on that occasion of the

5 line-up because these things had happened when he was supposed to be in

6 command or not?

7 A. There was no need for him to be yelled at because the children

8 said that the people that they had seen personally were not actually in

9 the line-up, because there could be no greater accusation that could be

10 made against anyone.

11 Q. No, no. But I take it you agree with the proposition that Ramiz

12 Delalic did not single out this man Zuti for any specific criticism on the

13 day when Ramiz ended up coming to Grabovica and lining up the soldiers.

14 Is that correct?

15 A. Ramiz had no reason to criticise him, because it was not known

16 who did that; was it our people, who was it who did that. Nobody knew who

17 did it and what they did, so we don't know if it was any of our people or

18 not.

19 Q. I understand that. Now, returning to the 9th, where we were, in

20 your trips to and from the village, did you see any old Croatian villagers

21 walking down the road towards Jablanica?

22 A. I don't know. There were refugees around, and I saw them. There

23 were those who had been in the camps. They were passing by, walking

24 around. But I can't really say whether they were Croats or Muslims or

25 whether it was a former inmate or something. I really didn't know that.

Page 48

1 Q. When lunchtime came on the 9th, to your knowledge were those

2 lunch packets distributed or not?

3 A. There was no specific lunchtime with us. People ate whenever

4 they had time to do that.

5 Q. Okay. Well, were those lunch packets distributed during the day

6 of the 9th?

7 A. Each fighter could take his two lunch packets, because that was

8 the daily ration, two lunch packets. So they could take them whenever

9 they wanted.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown P3 once again,

11 photograph number 3.

12 Q. Would you just look to the right -- I just want you to focus on

13 the white house in which you had stayed. Do you see that house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And the trees immediately to the right of that -- of that house

16 can be glimpsed two buildings. The second of them is hidden behind the

17 blue woodsmoke that can be seen and the first of them can be glimpsed. Do

18 you see those two houses indicated by two greyish-white dots within the

19 trees?

20 A. Yes. I see a sort of dot there, and then something else over

21 there, where there is smoke.

22 Q. Yes. Do you recall a base being established for your unit of the

23 9th Brigade in either of those buildings in the trees on the 9th of

24 September?

25 A. I don't recall that, because there is a sort of field, a clearing

Page 49

1 next to this house, and I see it now here, but when I was there, I didn't

2 really pay attention to that. But I know to the left of the white house

3 there was a field.

4 Q. When you say "to the left of the white house," do you mean as you

5 stand in the door of the white house and look out towards the Neretva

6 River?

7 A. When I'm standing at the door, it's to the left. Now as I look

8 at it, the field is on the right side.

9 Q. Okay. What you mean is on the side nearest to Jablanica.

10 A. I don't know. The field is to the right of this white house

11 where these bushes are. I don't know what you want me to say here.

12 Q. No. No. I just want to make sure that we're referring to the

13 same direction. Looking at the photograph, the field is to the right of

14 the white house; correct?

15 A. Yes, behind this wood. Behind these trees is the field.

16 Q. Yes. And to the right of that field are the two buildings that

17 you've noted earlier; is that correct?

18 A. I see it here, where there is smoke and there is also some sort

19 of spot or point there.

20 Q. Did you go to those buildings approximately -- at approximately

21 evening-time as the sun went down on the evening of the 9th of September?

22 A. No, I did not.

23 Q. You're in a position yourself to say that Ramiz Delalic did not

24 go there at that time either, aren't you? Because you were with him in

25 Jablanica. Is that correct?

Page 50

1 A. I was in Jablanica on the 9th in the evening with Ramiz Delalic,

2 Fikret Kajevic, and Malco.

3 Q. Yes. So according to you, Ramiz Delalic, who is also known as

4 Celo, could not have been in those buildings there at evening-time on the

5 9th of September. Is that accurate?

6 A. Ramiz Delalic only appeared when those children were found.

7 Before that, he didn't come and he wasn't staying in this place,

8 Grabovica.

9 Q. And did you ever see any livestock gathered at those buildings in

10 the woods there, the ones we're talking about?

11 A. No, I didn't see it in the woods, but I know that there was some

12 livestock up in the hills.

13 Q. Well, we're not disputing with you about that. It's a question

14 of timing though, Mr. Arnautovic. Did you notice any soldiers driving

15 calfs or goats towards that part of the village where those -- those

16 buildings are?

17 A. Nothing. Nothing. I noticed nothing. I was going back and

18 forth, so I really can't say what was going on during the day because I

19 was going back and forth. I cannot say that there was any shooting. I

20 didn't hear any. When I was there, I didn't hear any. I don't know if

21 there was any shooting when I was away. And as far as that's concerned, I

22 really can't say anymore.

23 Q. On the evening of the 9th, when you say you met Ramiz Delalic in

24 Jablanica, where precisely did you meet him? Was it in a cafe or a hotel

25 or was it at Zuka's base? Where was it?

Page 51

1 A. This was Zuka's base, where the coffee bar was, and there were

2 two rooms behind where there was a sort of command headquarters, something

3 like that.

4 Q. And where was it that you met with Ramiz Delalic on that occasion

5 on the evening of the 9th?

6 A. There, at Zuka's headquarters. Not in the evening though. I

7 came before.

8 Q. What time did you come? Approximately what time did you come?

9 A. You could still see when I arrived. It was still daytime.

10 Q. Very well. And was it getting dark in that part of Herzegovina

11 at approximately 6.00 in those days?

12 A. No, it didn't get dark at 6.00.

13 Q. At what time did it get dark?

14 A. At that time, it would get dark at around 8.00, because I know.

15 I go to the mosque, so I can tell what all the different times of the day

16 are. Aksam is actually the very early twilight.

17 Q. And is that the time that you arrived back?

18 A. It wasn't Aksam time. This was between -- it was still perhaps

19 two hours to go before Aksam.

20 Q. You indicated that on that occasion you saw Ramiz and also Zuka

21 and also Sefer Halilovic. You indicated that to the Prosecutor. Did you

22 see Sefer Halilovic's son on that occasion, a 12-year-old boy?

23 A. I know that he was around there with him. I know that he was

24 staying with him.

25 Q. Did you see him on that occasion?

Page 52

1 A. No, I didn't see him then.

2 Q. And on this occasion, did Ramiz take the opportunity to ask you

3 whether the accommodation problems had resolved themselves?

4 A. Because as I said -- I said it was -- I took a sponge -- I took a

5 mattress from Zuka's headquarters, and I said that there was no problem

6 for the fighters to be billeted. They had sleeping bags and sort of foam

7 mattresses. That's -- that's what they had.

8 Q. Did you see whether Zuka and Celo left the village of -- or left

9 Zuka's base and drove anywhere in the evening of the 9th --

10 A. No, they didn't drive off anywhere. They had -- they stayed

11 there the whole night, almost until morning.

12 Q. How is it that you're able to say that with confidence?

13 A. Because there were preparations underway for the action.

14 Agreements were being reached, consultations.

15 Q. Yes. Now, what you've said -- I think your evidence yesterday is

16 that after sleeping in Jablanica, you then on the following morning, the

17 morning of the 10th, returned to Grabovica. Is that correct?

18 A. I set out on that morning together with Ramiz Delalic to tell

19 them about the action, to tell them to get ready for it.

20 Q. So what your account is is that it was you together with

21 Mr. Delalic who drove from Jablanica back to Grabovica; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you drove in the car or the -- or the jeep in which you had

24 travelled the previous night in to Jablanica; is that correct?

25 A. The jeep, the brown-and-white one, yes.

Page 53

1 Q. Yes. Okay. And in that brown-and-white jeep, you say you and --

2 and Ramiz came back to the village and there encountered the two boys; is

3 that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. I just want you to assist me with a matter here, Mr. Arnautovic.

6 Back in 1998 at the cantonal court --

7 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm referring now, Your Honours, to the statement

8 of -- provided to us by the Prosecutor to the cantonal court dated 3rd of

9 December, 1998, and I'm referring to the third page of that.

10 MR. RE: Out of fairness to the witness, perhaps he could be

11 provided with a copy of the statement if extracts are going to be read to

12 him so that he could actually see what's being read to him in context.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, it depends on how long that part --

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour --

15 JUDGE LIU: -- is.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Your Honour, this is not like the previous

17 one. It's a short one.

18 JUDGE LIU: Let's try that.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. If there's any difficulty, of course the

20 Prosecutor can --

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Would you please read slowly. The interpreters

24 do not have the document.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I've been requested to read slowly,

Page 54

1 which I will comply with.

2 Q. The quote begins like this, Mr. Arnautovic: "Tomorrow after

3 staying for the night at Jablanica, I returned again in to Grabovica among

4 soldiers and by that opportunity I found two children at entrance into

5 village who came before the car I drove."

6 I'll just stop for a moment there. There's then a passage

7 concerning what you were told by the children.

8 And then you go on in this way: "About these events at

9 Grabovica, I heard first from children I met. I did not see any corpse

10 and returned immediately to Jablanica to inform Delalic Ramiz hat I heard

11 from children."

12 I'm going to read two more sentences: "I left the children with

13 soldiers and did not take them along to Jablanica. I know that Ramiz

14 Delalic after this returned immediately to Grabovica from Jablanica, that

15 is, he came with me and talked with the children."

16 Now, Mr. Arnautovic, that's quite different to the story that

17 you're telling today, isn't it? Because there you're saying that you came

18 by yourself.

19 MR. RE: Well, I object to that.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 MR. RE: The first proposition my learned friend has to establish

22 is in fact that the witness said this at the cantonal court and it in fact

23 was recorded accurately what he said. It is only after the witness has

24 agreed with that that he can then put to him it is in fact a prior

25 inconsistent statement?

Page 55

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, it's not being put as a prior

3 inconsistent statement yet. It's just being put that it's different. And

4 we'll see what happens after that.

5 MR. RE: Well, that's not what he said though. He said that, you

6 said because you're saying there that you came by yourself. That's very

7 different. That's accepting that he actually said that, as opposed to

8 something that is recorded. They are two completely different

9 propositions.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we could ask the witness to make comments

11 on that.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.

13 Q. Well, Mr. Arnautovic, that's what you said to the cantonal court,

14 isn't it?

15 A. I did not say that to the cantonal court, because that court, as

16 I've already said, is a court I don't recognise. Because the police, the

17 army, they are all connected with it, and they want to destroy Ramiz

18 Delalic. They want to shift the blame onto him. I spent only five

19 minutes in that court and then I left that office. I simply didn't want

20 to talk to the judge about certain things. And the only thing that I

21 stand by is what I say before this court, because in Bosnia all the

22 authorities are corrupt.

23 Q. Well, not the Minister of -- the Ministry of the Interior aren't

24 corrupt, are they, Mr. Arnautovic?

25 A. Oh, yes, it is. It certainly is. It's corrupt. Everybody in

Page 56

1 Sarajevo knows. We know a lot of things.

2 Q. What about Bakir Alispahic? He wasn't corrupt, was he?

3 A. Well, you tell me whether he's corrupt or not. When the war

4 started, that man didn't have a loaf of bread to eat, and now he has tens

5 of thousands of marks, so you tell me whether he's corrupt or not. You

6 think about it a bit.

7 Q. Well, I'm just asking you. Why is it that you say Bakir

8 Alispahic is corrupt?

9 MR. RE: I object. I should have objected before.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes.

11 MR. RE: But I object now.

12 JUDGE LIU: I --

13 MR. RE: And I ask that that last be struck from the record.

14 It's irrelevant to the proceedings.

15 JUDGE LIU: I think you have a reason. I think you have a

16 reason.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: I won't persist with that question, Your Honour.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MR. MORRISSEY:

20 Q. Okay, Mr. Arnautovic, nevertheless, did you sign the record of

21 the witness here in -- in which you participated at the cantonal court on

22 December the 3rd, 1998? Did you sign it?

23 A. I won't tell you I didn't sign it. I did only because I wanted

24 to leave that office as soon as possible. It was Ramadan. It was a fast.

25 It's stupid to be invited before a court during Ramadan when you're

Page 57

1 fasting. A fast is something special in Islam, among Muslims.

2 Q. But it's important to tell the truth as well, isn't it,

3 Mr. Arnautovic?

4 A. In 1993, when we were all arrested, people were threatened with

5 shooting. They said they had specialists that could flay them alive.

6 They used all kinds of methods.

7 Q. Yes.

8 A. And then people were afraid and said whatever they wanted them to

9 say. There are some that went crazy after that.

10 Q. Yes. Mr. Arnautovic, don't misunderstand the questions here. In

11 the statement that you gave -- the statement that I put to you that you

12 gave to the cantonal court, what you seem to say is that Ramiz Delalic was

13 indeed in Jablanica that night.

14 What I'll do is I'll read parts of it to you and you tell me if

15 it's true.

16 A. Ramiz Delalic was in Jablanica that night, and I was together

17 with him when we found that child. And if our Prosecutor says that I was

18 there on my own when we found the child, that's their problem. I didn't

19 even read that statement. I simply wasn't interested in that statement.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, could I call for the production of

21 the original of that statement, if it's present in court, in the hands of

22 the Prosecutor. And I mean the Bosnian original.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well -- yes, do you have it?

24 MR. RE: I've unfortunately left mine in my office. I was just

25 going to ask our case manager to get an investigator to bring it down.

Page 58

1 But I believe the witness possibly has a copy in B/C/S with him.

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

3 Well, Mr. Morrissey, I -- I think the question is quite clear on

4 that, you know. No matter whether you show this, you know, record to the

5 witness or not, we see some, you know, discrepancy between the two. I

6 think you have achieved your point.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: As the Court pleases. Yes.

8 Well, now, just excuse me a moment, please.

9 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, I want to put a different account to you now.

10 And this one, Your Honour, I'm reading from the ICTY investigator's

11 statement dated 7 October 1999, and I'm reading from page 4 of that

12 statement.

13 I'm going to read out a passage. It's got a -- it's got a few

14 sentences in it. So listen carefully and then I'll ask you some questions

15 at the end. It's about seven or eight lines long, Your Honour.

16 "Four of us, that is Ramiz Delalic, Malco Rovcanin, Fikret

17 Kajevic and myself, stayed in the Zulfikar base until next morning. The

18 next morning at about 6.00, the four of us, Delalic, Rovcanin, Kajevic and

19 myself left the Zuka's base for Grabovica. We stayed at the same empty

20 house in Grabovica in which I slept the first night after our arrival at

21 Grabovica. Ramiz asked me to wake him up at 10.00 since he had to have a

22 meeting at the Zulfikar base. I also went to sleep because I was tired.

23 I woke Ramiz up about 10.00 a.m. Ramiz and myself went to the Zuka's base

24 in the car jeep. At the exit from Grabovica, we were stopped by five or

25 six soldiers. Three or four were from our brigade and two others were

Page 59

1 from other units. Now I cannot recall their names. The soldiers told us

2 that they had found two Croat children, two brothers, in the forest."

3 Now I have some questions for you about that passage. First of

4 all, you agree that that passage tells a different story to that which you

5 have given in court yesterday and today; is that correct?

6 A. As for what you've just read, first of all, I never said "we

7 went" nor was Grbavica mentioned. Grbavica is in Sarajevo. I was not in

8 Grbavica. The Chetniks were in Grbavica. Five or six times you

9 said "Grbavica. You were in Grbavica with Rovcanin and Delalic." And I

10 don't understand how this was written. If this is what Nikolai was doing,

11 I'm simply not interested. This man thought he knew our language, when in

12 fact he didn't know it.

13 Q. But once again, you agree that Kanita Halilovic, the translator,

14 was there at all times during this interview?

15 A. Yes, she was there. But it was he who asked questions and talked

16 to me in our language, the Bosnian language.

17 Q. Yes. Well, is your position this: That you simply never said

18 that? Is that what you say?

19 A. No, I didn't say that. You mentioned Grbavica five or six times.

20 Grbavica is not Grabovica. There's a huge difference. Otherwise, I would

21 have been a Chetnik. It will turn out I was a spy with Delalic and the

22 others.

23 Q. Well, is it the truth that you came back to Grabovica and slept

24 for four hours early in the morning of the 10th of September or not?

25 A. I don't know anything. I don't know what to tell you. I abide

Page 60

1 by what I said before this Tribunal. That's how it is. I met up with

2 Ramiz Delalic and then when we met those children, he lined up the troops.

3 And as for what Vehbija said, I stand by that. And now you're talking

4 about Grbavica. That's enough to prove how many mistakes there are in

5 that statement and how Nikolai put questions.

6 Q. Do you know how it is that you came to be so unlucky that two

7 different sets of -- of statement takers on two different occasions have

8 come up with two different false versions?

9 MR. RE: Well, I object to this. I mean --

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 MR. RE: -- the line of questioning my learned friend is putting

12 to the witness it's clearly unfair if you look at the extract which is

13 read. The statement is clearly -- clearly has to be wrong because in that

14 same passage it says that he stayed at Zuka's base on that same night and

15 at Grabovica on the same night and woke up in both places on the same

16 night. There's clearly an error in the statement in the way it's been

17 taken. Proofing notes we gave to my learned friend told him the witness

18 said it was incorrect the way it was taken, and it's clearly apparent on

19 the face of it that there is something wrong in -- in the way that it is

20 written. He cannot have stayed in both places on the same night and woken

21 up in both places on the same night. My friend knows that and it's unfair

22 to put it to the witness in that sense without giving him the statement to

23 read and allowing the witness to go back and to see the chronology there.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I'll have to respond to that.

Page 61

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Because that went outside of what's a proper

3 objection, and I can respond to it.

4 Does the Court have in its -- I don't know what the position is

5 with the e-court. Do you have in possession that statement? Because I'll

6 take the Court to it in detail and indicate that there's nothing

7 necessarily contradictory about it at all.

8 Effectively what I submit the statement says is that they stayed

9 in Jablanica, the four who are being referred to -- stayed in Jablanica

10 but then at 6.00 a.m. drove down to Grabovica and had a sleep for four

11 hours. There is nothing internally incoherent about that statement at

12 all. My learned friend says that I know different. The Court may draw

13 its own conclusion if you need to engage in what counsel knows, generally

14 speaking a barren exercise.

15 But nevertheless the statement does not contain the inherent

16 error that my learned friend points out. If he sees fit to point it out

17 while the witness is sitting listening, that's a matter for him.

18 In any event, the same situation obtains as obtained with the

19 last thing that I put to him. He doesn't adopt this as his own words. He

20 doesn't agree that he said that at all, and it places me in the position

21 of relying on it for a limited purpose only, and that is as a prior

22 inconsistent statement rather than one which he's adopted as being the

23 truth because I can't claim that he has. He hasn't. Nevertheless, I put

24 it to him. He's said what he has to say about it. If there's any

25 apparent unfairness I'm happy to correct it, but the one that has been

Page 62

1 identified is not an unfairness in my submission.

2 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe at my hands we have the witness

3 statement, and I believe that you have made your point very clear.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: As the Court pleases.

5 JUDGE LIU: So would you please move on.

6 MR. MORRISSEY: With the greatest pleasure and gratitude.

7 Thanks.

8 Q. Now, you've already answered questions about --

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I'm about to commence a topic. I

10 haven't kept an eye on the time. And so I'm in the Court's hands. If you

11 indicate that it's time for a break, I'm about to commence a new topic

12 now, so ...

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, we will take a break at 15 minutes past 5.00.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, as the Court pleases.

15 JUDGE LIU: And could I ask you how long are you going to take?

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Oh, I'm going to make an effort to finish by that

17 time. It may be that I can finish by that time.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, try you best.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.

20 JUDGE LIU: Because we have another witness, you know, waiting.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, as the Court pleases.

22 Q. Now, you -- I'd now ask the witness once again to be shown P3.

23 And I'd like the witness to be given the assistance of the pen, if that's

24 possible.

25 Could you please mark where it was that you met the soldiers who

Page 63

1 told you about the two boys.

2 A. We met them -- I can't see because of the bushes, but it was

3 around here. There was a barrier and there was a house, but I can't see

4 that very clearly now because there's a lot of bushes there. There was a

5 house and near it there was a barrier put up.

6 Q. Who was manning -- now, sorry, pardon me. I understand what you

7 say, Mr. Arnautovic. Is that mark there an -- is that accurate as to

8 where it was, or would you like to see a photograph of the road a little

9 further up?

10 A. I know where this house was. I don't know how to say. It was a

11 sort of stone house. And then there was a barrier there, and that's where

12 you entered Grabovica.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: All right. Could I just ask that the witness be

14 shown P79 -- or perhaps, sorry. I stop there. I offer that for tender at

15 this point as marked.

16 MR. RE: No objection.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It is admitted into the evidence.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, thank you.

19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Defence Exhibit D172, Your Honours.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: All right. Yes, could the witness please be

21 shown P79.

22 Q. Okay. Do you have in front of you now a photograph that's got

23 various yellow arrows drawn on it?

24 A. No.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, I'm not sure that the witness

Page 64

1 has the -- has the right photograph in front of him.

2 A. Now I have it.

3 Q. It has the numbers in the top right-hand corner 01494686.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, if the situation is -- is

5 technologically difficult, I might try another -- I'll try another

6 approach. I apologise to all concerned. If it's nearly there, I'll wait.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have the picture now.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay. Thank you.

10 Q. And my apology, Mr. Arnautovic, for keeping you waiting like

11 that.

12 Now, does that picture there allow you to do any better in terms

13 of where you met the soldiers who told you about the children in the first

14 place?

15 A. What I can see here now, these are recently built buildings.

16 Q. Yes. Could I just -- you'll see that there are some long low

17 buildings along the road which are recent sawmills. Do you see those?

18 A. I remember when we were entering Grabovica the road was straight

19 and there was a barrier put up, and I think it's near the house

20 marked "14."

21 Q. Yes.

22 A. But there was no bend in the road. The road was completely

23 straight.

24 Q. I think in fairness to you, Mr. Arnautovic, the road still is

25 straight and that's just a bend that -- that's just a path that goes up to

Page 65

1 the road.

2 But in any event, could you mark as best you can with the blue

3 pen on that map approximately where you met those soldiers.

4 A. When you enter the village of Grabovica, it was the first house

5 on the right, the first house. I can't be completely sure now whether

6 this is the house, because later on this was destroyed. Everything was

7 destroyed. But I think this should be it. If that's the stone house,

8 that was there.

9 Q. Okay. Can you remember which soldiers were -- which, if any,

10 soldiers were living in that house at that time?

11 A. I note Crni was there, the man called Crni.

12 Q. Is that Mr. Turkovic?

13 A. I don't know his name. I know only his nickname.

14 Q. Okay. Can you remember who else was living in that house,

15 please?

16 A. I can't recall exactly who was there. I know Crni was there and

17 there was a barrier there and the soldiers manning the barrier changed.

18 They changed shifts.

19 Q. And which unit were those soldiers from?

20 A. I don't know. They were mixed. There were probably shifts. I

21 don't know how it worked.

22 Q. Were there any 9th Brigade soldiers amongst those manning that

23 barrier?

24 A. There was Crni there.

25 Q. Any others? Any other 9th Brigaders, I mean.

Page 66

1 A. I don't remember.

2 Q. Okay. Is that --

3 A. I didn't pay all that much attention.

4 Q. Okay. I understand that. Is that the same spot at which you

5 first saw the children themselves, or did you see them somewhere else

6 first?

7 A. No, no. I saw them there when I arrived with Ramiz.

8 Q. All right. So this photograph depicts the spot that you've

9 marked where both the soldiers and the kids were; correct?

10 A. I said Crni was there. I didn't say the soldiers. I only

11 saw Crni.

12 Q. And the children?

13 A. And the children. They were there with him.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: I tender -- well, I offer that for tender as

15 well.

16 MR. RE: There's no objection.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It's admitted into the evidence.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Defence Exhibit D173, Your Honour.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Very well.

20 Q. Now, as to the line-up, you've already been asked several

21 questions, and I only have a couple of residual ones. At that line-up

22 when Ramiz asked questions and brought the boys around, you've indicated

23 some of the things that were said by the soldiers and you recall giving

24 that evidence yesterday; is that correct?

25 A. I don't know. Everybody was saying they didn't know anything,

Page 67

1 they hadn't seen anything, they hadn't heard anything. That's all I

2 remember.

3 Q. Not one person there said, "Hey, it's okay. Vehbija Karic gave

4 an order," did they?

5 A. I don't know what they thought, but nobody said anything. All

6 they said was that they didn't know anything, hadn't seen anything, hadn't

7 heard anything.

8 Q. Had the story about Vehbija Karic not been invented yet,

9 Mr. Arnautovic?

10 A. It's not an invented story. Vehbija Karic did say that. But the

11 men there said they had not seen or heard anything and they said they

12 didn't know anything.

13 Q. You said yesterday that Musa Hota was missing from that line-up.

14 Did you point out to Ramiz Delalic that Musa Hota was missing?

15 A. Five or six fighters were missing because allegedly they had gone

16 to do reconnaissance because an action was being planned. I didn't

17 say, "Musa Hota is missing" to Ramiz, because I was just an ordinary

18 mortal waiting for a bullet to hit him. I wasn't a commander. I wasn't

19 in charge.

20 Q. Well, I understand you were a mortal. You had the advantage of

21 being alive at that point though, and that's why I'm asking you the

22 questions about it. And the question is: Why didn't you, having noticed

23 the absence of Hota, draw that to the attention of Ramiz, in whose company

24 you'd been, you say, from the night before? Why didn't you point it out

25 to him?

Page 68

1 A. Zuti was there. He was the commander. He should have been the

2 one to take care of all the people. I am not responsible of sending

3 people out into combat or into reconnaissance. It was Zuti's task. So

4 you'd better be asking Zuti about that, because he was the person who was

5 in charge of the men.

6 Q. What about Nihad Vlahovljak? Was he in that line?

7 A. I can't remember. All I know is at the time I noticed that Musa

8 wasn't there and a few people, other people who were scouts, but nothing

9 else.

10 Q. Okay. All right. I'm not going to revisit the questions about

11 what happened back in Jablanica with the boys. I want to ask you a

12 question now about when you came back to Grabovica. After the boys were

13 taken to Jablanica and left there, did you come back and search the

14 village for bodies?

15 A. People came back to the village. There were people who kept

16 coming back to the village. Nobody saw anything. Nobody found anything.

17 No dead bodies were found. No one found anything.

18 Q. But did you join in a search for such dead bodies?

19 A. There's nothing to search for. If they're not there nearby, then

20 there's no other place to look for them. Where could they have

21 disappeared? If somebody were to have taken the bodies away out further,

22 then in my opinion that whole thing would need to be organised.

23 Q. Did you look for any digging, any signs of digging?

24 A. I didn't pay attention to that. I simply didn't even believe

25 that something like that could have happened that happened.

Page 69

1 Q. Even today are you participating in a cover-up of what really

2 happened there, Mr. Arnautovic?

3 A. I am not covering anything up. I cannot say that somebody killed

4 somebody or that I had seen a dead body when I did not. I'm not covering

5 anything up. I am quite certain I didn't see any dead bodies, I didn't

6 see anybody killed. I know that people were killed and I know that these

7 children were found, but I really can't tell you anything other than that.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown photograph

9 number P79 once again.

10 Q. Do you have that photograph in front of you now?

11 A. Yes, I see the same one.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. As before.

14 Q. Now, you've already indicated where the checkpoint was near

15 Crni's house. Did the 9th Brigade set up another checkpoint about 100

16 metres downstream from that; in other words, 100 metres closer to your

17 white house?

18 A. This checkpoint was not set up by the 9th Brigade. That was the

19 first one. After the events, after what happened, after the children were

20 taken in, then there was another checkpoint that Zulfikar set up further

21 up near the bridge Cedo's Wolves were and the Handzar Division were,

22 because they assumed or wanted to prevent anyone else from having access

23 to Grabovica.

24 Q. Isn't it nearer to the truth, Mr. Arnautovic, that Zuka set up

25 those checkpoints to keep you and the 9th Brigade in rather than to keep

Page 70

1 anyone else out?

2 A. That checkpoint was set up to prevent access. I know a

3 journalist, a woman, wanted to come in and she was prevented from doing

4 that. I know Bakir Alispahic came with some police units from the

5 direction of Mostar. So when he was coming back, he tried to get in and

6 he was prevented from doing that. And there were some others, perhaps

7 other journalists or people from UNPROFOR who wanted to get in but they

8 were not allowed to.

9 Q. When was Bakir Alispahic prevented from getting in,

10 Mr. Arnautovic?

11 A. I don't know exactly. All I know is that they tried to get in

12 but they wouldn't let them go in. They were prevented. This is what the

13 fighters were saying. They tried to get in and were not allowed to. I

14 was not there to conduct any kind of investigation. I said I was just a

15 mere mortal who was only concerned with whether he was going to survive or

16 get killed.

17 Q. Okay. But just stick with the Alispahic question for a moment.

18 When was it, according to your knowledge, that Alispahic tried to get into

19 the village?

20 A. I don't know when the barriers were set up. After that, I heard

21 something, but like I said, I was not in charge, I couldn't have been in

22 charge, I couldn't be in command of who would be getting in and who

23 wouldn't be getting in. You could be asking the commanders, Zuka and

24 others, who set those things up and who were there to see who could get in

25 and who were preventing other people from getting in. You better ask

Page 71

1 them. But as far as I'm concerned, I really couldn't tell you much about

2 that.

3 Q. When that line-up took place, where were the troops of the

4 Handzar Division?

5 A. Before the line-up -- of the 9th or you mean our unit?

6 Q. I mean the line-up that was done by Ramiz Delalic.

7 A. Well, then you could ask it a little bit differently. Ramiz

8 lined up his men, the ones that he had. He was not in charge of the

9 Handzar Division. You should have tried at that time to line up that

10 unit. It was mostly Albanians who were members of that unit at the time.

11 Q. Well, so what? What's the importance of that?

12 A. What's the importance of that? The word itself will tell you.

13 We had nothing to do with them. The "Handzar Division," that word should

14 signify something to you. Plus the fact that it was made up of Albanians.

15 This was something quite apart. And they were up at the entrance over

16 there where the checkpoint was.

17 Q. So is it your position -- just perhaps I'll ask you this

18 generally. Is it your position that perhaps the killings were done by men

19 of the 2nd Independent Battalion or the Handzar Division or even Cedo's

20 Wolves?

21 MR. RE: I object to that. The witness can give evidence of what

22 he saw or what he -- what he's heard, if it's relevant to the proceedings.

23 But his general opinion as to what may or may not have occurred, in my

24 respectful submission, is irrelevant.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Rather than have a controversy, I'll just ask him

Page 72

1 that question, Your Honour.

2 Q. Did you hear that the men of the Handzar of Cedo's Wolves and of

3 Solakovic's unit may have participated in the killings?

4 A. I cannot confirm any of that. Anybody could have done that, in

5 my opinion. Even the inmates could have done it. Who knows who killed

6 who there. Those who actually committed that act probably know it best.

7 Q. Yes. One thing you can say is that you were shocked and

8 surprised to hear what had happened; is that correct?

9 A. That is correct. When I saw those kids, I had left behind two

10 children of that very same age back in Sarajevo, and they were exposed to

11 thousands of shells every day.

12 Q. Okay. Just excuse me a moment, please.

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Thanks.

15 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, you've been very patient. I've just got perhaps

16 five more minutes of questioning and then I've finished with my questions.

17 You indicated that on the night of the 10th, the fighters went

18 walking off on the long route to Dreznica; is that correct?

19 A. They were going out to an operation or an action and they were

20 walking to Dreznica. They went down along the Neretva.

21 Q. Yes. But your account is that the unit returned back to Sarajevo

22 on the 12th or the 13th; is that correct?

23 A. The unit returned on the 12th to the 13th, and I remember that

24 because I was wondering if I would be back there or not for my birthday.

25 And I returned to Sarajevo on the 13th.

Page 73

1 Q. So you were back for your birthday; yes?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you can remember seeing Sefer Halilovic, Zuka, and the

4 journalist Sevko Hodzic in the village of Grabovica on the occasion when

5 your photograph was taken; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And as far as you know, when did the battle that the 9th Brigade

8 soldiers were going to fight in actually commence in the Vrdi area or the

9 Dreznica area generally?

10 A. I don't know. I remember I wasn't there. I think that it

11 started around the 18th -- the 11th.

12 Q. Yes. Did you know whether or not Zuka, Zulfikar Alispago issued

13 a combat order named "Defence of people's rights" on the 11th of

14 September, 1993? Did you know about that order or not?

15 A. I don't know. There was an order for our unit to go to Dreznica

16 and then from there to go to Vrdi, something like that. I don't know the

17 exact name.

18 Q. Okay. Mr. Arnautovic, when you were arrested on the 26th of

19 October, 1993 during the Operation Trebevic II, you were threatened by the

20 people who arrested you with being skinned alive, weren't you?

21 A. Yes. That they would execute me and all.

22 Q. Yes. And they mistreated -- I'm not going to go into the

23 details, but it's safe to say they mistreated you in a number of ways on

24 that occasion; is that correct?

25 A. During the night in several ways. During the night, at 3.00 in

Page 74

1 the morning, they even tried to kill me from the back, and the military

2 police officer who had brought me in, he knew he because I helped him

3 during the war with cigarettes in the hospital. But there was allegedly

4 an attempt to kill me from the back while apparently attempting to run

5 away. That was the idea. This was something that happened on many

6 occasions. They killed many people like that.

7 Q. Yes. Well, look, I'll stick to the questions concerning you.

8 But when you were questioned, it was quite obvious to you that the police

9 who questioned you were desperate to find something against Ramiz

10 Delalic. Is that true?

11 A. Yes, that is correct. They were trying with all their might to

12 find something because some individuals from those corps hated him,

13 because he was a true fighter. He went in front of the men into battle

14 during the war.

15 Q. And he was very loyal to you -- to his -- to his fighters; is

16 that true?

17 A. He was just a good man.

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. If you need anything though, perhaps it would be better to ask

20 him. You can call him and then he would probably be able to give you a

21 better explanation about certain things.

22 Q. Well, I've only got a couple more questions for you. The last --

23 one question is that when you were -- when you were questioned by those

24 police officers -- perhaps I should ask you: Do you know their names, the

25 ones who questioned you?

Page 75

1 A. I couldn't say. I don't remember the names. I can just maybe

2 call them by one name. I don't know. I have no words for the conduct of

3 those people. Because these people were in cellars while we were waging

4 battles. I have no words to describe them. The best thing I can say is

5 that they are just cattle. I apologise to this court. And they are still

6 calling me in Sarajevo, making phone calls and everything, and all I can

7 say about them is that they are just a bunch of rednecks, and I hope the

8 Court will excuse me for that.

9 Q. Well, Mr. Arnautovic, those same people pressed you with some

10 questions about Sefer Halilovic as well, didn't they?

11 A. Regarding the events in Grabovica, there were the least number of

12 questions. More questions were about some sort of personal interests of

13 theirs, including Sefer's. Because they were these high-ranking military

14 officers there also who hate Sefer Halilovic.

15 Q. Do you know their names?

16 A. Usually these high-ranking ones, Rasim Delic, and these other

17 ones who were ministers. It's known how they hated him. He's from

18 Sandzak; that's one reason. And then it went from there.

19 Q. And it was famous and well known that there was political rivalry

20 and dislike between Sefer Halilovic and Bakir Alispahic; is that correct?

21 A. As far as I know the situation in Sarajevo, Sefer Halilovic at

22 that time, as far as I know, was an honest honourable man, in Sarajevo. I

23 have other things about Bakir Alispahic, maybe some criminal acts, he had

24 been brought in, detained before. So he is a sort of bad apple, where in

25 a basket of apples there are bound to be some rotten apples, so ...

Page 76

1 Q. The last question is this --

2 [Defence counsel confer]

3 MR. MORRISSEY:

4 Q. Sometime after all of these events, do you recall receiving a

5 presidential pardon authorised by an individual named Mr. Mujezinovic but

6 effectively emanating from the president, Izetbegovic?

7 A. First of all, they didn't have any proof against me, and then in

8 the meantime there was this pardon issued by the Presidency that Alija

9 Izetbegovic passed.

10 Q. And do you recall when you got that pardon?

11 A. I don't know. I was released from prison earlier because they

12 didn't have anything, and then the pardon was declared after that.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Mr. Arnautovic, thank you for your

14 patience.

15 Thank you, Your Honours. Those are the questions.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll take a break and we'll resume at quarter

17 to 6.00.

18 --- Recess taken at 5.20 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.

20 JUDGE LIU: Any redirect, Mr. Re?

21 MR. RE: Yes. I won't be very long.

22 Before I start, I just wish to correct something. In an earlier

23 submission, I believe I probably inadvertently misled the Trial Chamber

24 when I referred to the statement to the cantonal court as being unsigned.

25 I didn't have it in front of me. I wasn't in fact thinking of the

Page 77

1 statement my learned friend Mr. Morrissey was cross-examining the witness

2 on, which was the statement to the military -- the state security sector

3 of 1993, not 1998. So I just wish to correct the record there.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

5 Re-examined by Mr. Re:

6 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, Mr. Morrissey asked you some questions yesterday

7 about the behaviour of Celo's soldiers, and you told the Trial Chamber

8 that Celo wouldn't let his soldiers drink or go into battle drunk.

9 Now, Celo, Ramiz Delalic, is he a religious man?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And does he have religious views about drink or alcohol?

12 A. I also share that. Our faith does not permit us to take alcohol,

13 drugs, and so on.

14 Q. Mr. Morrissey also asked you about civilians digging trenches at

15 the front lines in Sarajevo in 1993 before you went to Grabovica. My

16 question is this: Did you when you were there in Sarajevo in -- up to

17 September 1993 hear of any reports of civilians involuntarily digging

18 trenches -- sorry, digging trenches at the front line after having been

19 taken there by members of the 1st Corps?

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, there's -- in the circumstances of

21 this case, the question on its face is not -- not objectionable, but there

22 are various parts of the 1st Corps, and it really ought to be clarified,

23 given the nature of what my learned friend is entitled to ask about. And

24 there's a legitimate purpose behind the questions he's asking. It really

25 ought to be clarified which units he's talking about. "The 1st Corps" is

Page 78

1 too broad given the nature of the things before the Court.

2 JUDGE LIU: Maybe there will be some follow-up questions to that.

3 MR. RE:

4 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, a deliberately general question about the

5 1st Corps, if you heard any reports about civilians being taken

6 involuntarily to the front line to dig trenches by units within the

7 1st Corps.

8 A. There were such cases.

9 Q. Which units are we talking about?

10 A. There were brigades that would pick up smugglers or profiteers

11 usually.

12 Q. Are you able to say which brigades within the 1st Corps they

13 were?

14 A. There was talk around Sarajevo that the 10th had a bit of that,

15 taking people for digging.

16 Q. You mean the 10th Motorised Brigade?

17 A. I don't know. I think the 10th was a mountain brigade, if I

18 remember correctly.

19 Q. Mr. Morrissey also asked you about the arrival of soldiers in

20 Grabovica on the 8th of September and whether it was trucks or buses.

21 Were you aware of any other truckloads or bus loads of soldiers from any

22 units from anywhere arriving in Grabovica on the 8th of September, apart

23 from your own?

24 A. I don't remember. As far as I can recall, I think it was just

25 us. Because I heard that the 10th was billeted in Jablanica later, a

Page 79

1 number of them, something like that.

2 Q. Mr. Morrissey today asked you about the leadership of the -- of

3 your unit, the 9th, when you travelled from Grabovica -- sorry, from

4 Sarajevo to Grabovica on the 7th and 8th of September, 1993. In

5 cross-examination, you referred to a problem with the police at a place

6 called Pazaric on the way to Grabovica on the night of the 7th or 8th of

7 September 1993.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, even before the question is asked --

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: -- I'm going to object to it. That wasn't

11 this -- I don't have the line number, but you'll recall me objecting to

12 this matter in evidence in chief when my learned friend attempted to raise

13 it. We object to it as irrelevant, and should we need to go any further,

14 we'll object to it on another ground as well. But at this stage it's the

15 same objection, same objection really as was raised on the last occasion.

16 It's not relevant to Mr. Halilovic.

17 JUDGE LIU: Well, the question is whether you asked this question

18 or not in your cross-examination. If you asked this question in your

19 cross-examination, I believe that the Prosecution is entitled to

20 re-examine this witness.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, if you analyse -- it's at line 19, Your

22 Honour, of the ever-moving page. The more I talk, the less you're going

23 to be able to see it.

24 I direct the Court to look at that line 19 briefly, and then I'll

25 make my submission.

Page 80

1 Now, you'll see there that the question that's -- that's said to

2 ground Mr. Re's re-examination relates to the leadership. But what he's

3 really asking about at the bottom is something quite different. It's

4 about the -- the incident at Pazaric. So although it was a good try, in

5 my submission it doesn't arise out of cross-examination and I object to

6 it.

7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

8 MR. RE: If Your Honour could hear me, the question my learned

9 friend Mr. Morrissey asked was at page 34 of yesterday's transcript. He

10 said -- he said, "You drove through the night at Grabovica. Did you go

11 somewhere before you got to Grabovica? Where did you stop en route?"

12 Answer: "We had problems in a place called Pazaric." Moving on from

13 there, "Where did you stop?" That was the passage in relation to Pazaric.

14 Mr. Morrissey, my learned friend, cross-examined the witness at some

15 length as to the leadership of the unit. I wish to ask him about who

16 sorted out the problems at Pazaric and why, which goes to leadership

17 issue. That's the basis upon which I put that particular question.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, so long as it's related to that leadership

19 issue, you may proceed. I believe that it's just a pre-emptive attack,

20 you know, from the Defence on that very issue.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, that's so. But would you mind just

22 hearing me on that question. I haven't had the chance to go into what

23 happened at Pazaric. I haven't -- I've kept away from it deliberately in

24 cross-examination. It's got nothing to do with the case, in our

25 submission, and I didn't deal with it.

Page 81

1 Now, my learned friend is entitled to ask questions about

2 leadership, but merely mentioning the word "leadership" doesn't make any

3 potential incident relevant. He could ask about Mr. Halilovic's

4 leadership or Zuti's leadership or someone else's leadership in 1997 and

5 it would be about leadership but it wouldn't be relevant to this case.

6 This issue here was not cross-examined on and it's not legitimate, in my

7 submission, for my friend to bring the incident in as a showcase for a

8 discussion about leadership. There are plenty of other issues that --

9 through which he could make the same point, in my submission, and this one

10 is not one which was cross-examined upon and is not a legitimate incident

11 to be raised.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll see, you know, how it goes, you know, to

13 see whether it's relevant to this case or not. Yes.

14 You may proceed, Mr. Re.

15 Q. I'm not going to ask you of the details about the incident at

16 Pazaric in any detail. You mentioned there was an incident along the way

17 that involved the police.

18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't not understand whether

19 the witness said yes or no.

20 MR. RE:

21 Q. Can you just please repeat your answer. Was it yes or no?

22 A. Yes. Yes.

23 Q. How did the problems involving your -- your men, your -- the

24 people you were travelling with and the police get resolved? Who resolved

25 them?

Page 82

1 A. Ramiz Delalic went to the police station and the whole thing

2 ended when he left, and then we continued on our way.

3 Q. Why did Ramiz Delalic of all the people travelling in that convey

4 of 120-odd people, why was he the one who went to the police station and

5 managed to have the whole thing ended?

6 A. He went because they knew him. In order to prevent any bigger

7 problems occurring, he went to resolve that. We were an army after all,

8 and regular police -- reserve police - it's not even the real police -

9 should not be in a position to stop us when we're going on the road and to

10 harass us.

11 Q. What did you consider his role to be when he went to the police

12 station? His role, as opposed to all the other 120-odd people in that

13 convoy.

14 A. I thought that he went to resolve that. There was something

15 wrong there at the very start when you leave for something to happen. The

16 police should have been informed that the soldiers were supposed to pass,

17 that they were on their way to the front. Instead of that, we were

18 stopped and then we were said, "Let's see. Wait for this. Wait for

19 that." Then there were swear words exchanged, curses, and so on.

20 Q. What I'm asking you specifically is what your understanding was

21 of Ramiz Delalic's role in why he went to resolve the issue with the

22 police, rather than you or any of the other 120 people.

23 A. Because he was known as a commander. That's why he went to

24 resolve the situation. Nobody knew exactly what the intentions of the

25 police were. You can't really say.

Page 83

1 Q. You said he was known as a commander, and was that how -- was he

2 recorded as a commander by the 120 people who were in that convoy,

3 including yourself?

4 A. We knew who -- that we could rely on him to prevent problems, to

5 prevent conflicts from breaking out, because none of the fighters

6 understood why we had been stopped.

7 Q. Who was he known as a commander to?

8 A. He was known in Sarajevo and through the media.

9 Q. Was he known as a commander to those in the convoy?

10 A. Yes, of course he was known, because he was the deputy commander

11 of the brigade.

12 Q. And was that continuing throughout the journey to Grabovica, that

13 he was -- that he continued to be known as the deputy commander of the

14 brigade?

15 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, there's a number of -- in fact, I don't

16 object.

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole brigade knew, because it

19 happened before that. That Besirevic came. There was a change. And then

20 he became the deputy commander.

21 MR. RE:

22 Q. Mr. Morrissey also asked you about the statement you made to

23 an -- a Prosecution investigator you called Nikolai and you spoke about

24 some language issues. How would you describe the quality of Investigator

25 Nikolai's Bosnian or attempts at Bosnian?

Page 84

1 A. Well, he couldn't speak Bosnian well. He could speak a dialect

2 of sorts, but it could be understood.

3 Q. Do you remember - and you answered Mr. Morrissey that there was

4 an interpreter there - whether either Nikolai or the interpreter read the

5 statement in English back to you before you signed it?

6 A. I can't remember exactly. I know only that I didn't receive any

7 piece of paper and that he put questions to me more than -- more directly

8 than through the interpreter. It was he who spoke to me most in Bosnian.

9 Q. You also were questioned about a second statement to the cantonal

10 court in 1998, and you told the Trial Chamber that you had no respect for

11 their methods of work. What was it about the way they went about their

12 work that leads you to say you had no respect for their work?

13 A. Because they were all linked. It was a kind of clan. Ismet

14 Dahic, the minister of the police, and the prosecutor's office, the

15 prosecutor, then Bisic something, the judge. Later on they were all

16 chased out and replaced. Some were pensioned off and so on.

17 Q. Just describe how you made the statement, just the -- the making

18 of the statement, what you did and how they took the statement, as briefly

19 as possible.

20 A. When I went there to make that statement, first of all it wasn't

21 clear to me why and what for. I said, "As far as Grabovica goes, I didn't

22 see who did the killing. I didn't see anything. I don't know anything.

23 I told them what Vehbija Karic had said. I told them about it all very

24 briefly. I didn't want to enter into any conversations with them. I just

25 told them what I knew.

Page 85

1 Q. Did you have a lawyer with you when you went there?

2 A. No. No, just a typist and the judge.

3 Q. Were you ever given a copy of a statement from that court?

4 A. As far as I can recall, I just signed and went out the door.

5 Q. Did you read it before you signed it?

6 A. No, I didn't read it. I just signed and left. Because I was

7 fasting that day. It was Ramadan, and I didn't want to be provoked by

8 someone. I didn't want to become upset and ruin my fast.

9 Q. Are you aware whether the details in that statement are correct

10 or not?

11 MR. MORRISSEY: That goes beyond what's legitimate in

12 re-examination, in my submission.

13 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think in cross-examination you challenged

14 that statement. You know, you put this statement to the witness, and

15 the -- so the Prosecution is entitled to ask some questions, whether he

16 believes that statement is correct or not.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I agree with the second part of Your

18 Honour's proposition, and I've said what I have to say.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 MR. RE:

22 Q. I just want to show you a statement which is a three-page

23 document dated the 3rd of December, 1998. Do you recognise that as the

24 statement taken at the Sarajevo cantonal court on the 3rd of December,

25 1998?

Page 86

1 A. What I see here contains part of what I said, partly, but many

2 things here are unknown to me. I was there very briefly. I said I didn't

3 know who did the killing. I didn't know who did what. I can't point a

4 finger at anyone because I wasn't there at the time. And I told them that

5 very briefly.

6 Q. Are all the details in the statement correct or not?

7 A. Some are correct and some are not.

8 MR. RE: In the interests of time, I don't wish to take the

9 witness right through to statement to ask him what is correct and what is

10 incorrect, unless Your Honours feel that -- that it would assist.

11 Q. Mr. Morrissey also asked you a number of questions about the

12 statement you made on the 7th of -- the statement you made on the 7th of

13 October, 1999 to the Prosecution, and the statement you made about

14 Mr. Karadzic [sic] -- his statement about throwing the Croat civilians in

15 the river and whether it occurred on the 8th or the 9th of September. You

16 remember Mr. Morrissey asking you that earlier?

17 A. I remember that he asked me that about what Vehbija Karic said.

18 Q. The transcript actually says Karadzic at 85:5. It should

19 actually be Karic.

20 My question is: Some 11 and a half years after seeing the events

21 you described, what is the state of your memory as to whether what you saw

22 with Mr. Karic occurred on the 8th or the 9th? That's the first or the

23 second day --

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

Page 87

1 MR. MORRISSEY: There's an objection to that. Your Honour, the

2 questions that I put about that statement, as the Court will recall, did

3 not relate to whether it was on the 8th or the 9th but to the fact that he

4 attributed there to be two visits in that statement by Vehbija Karic. And

5 you'll recall it was said -- what was read to him was a passage that

6 expressed effectively that there'd been an visit on the 8th and then there

7 was another visit the next morning on the 9th. He gave answers about that

8 and he said, well -- words to the effect, I think, "I didn't say anything

9 like that so the statements not right."

10 MR. RE: I'll clarify.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think, you know, the Prosecution is just

12 asking about own which date, you know, Mr. Karic, you know, making that

13 statement, because, you know -- you know, the Prosecution is trying to

14 clarify whether it's the first day or the second day.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: What the question by my learned friend is trying

16 to do is to do the reverse of clarify but trying to create some doubt as

17 to which day it was said. Because the question is: Has he got a good

18 memory about it. And when Your Honour looks at the question, it's really

19 a question about his memory.

20 JUDGE LIU: The first part is not proper; you are right on that.

21 But the second part, well, there is some merit there.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: As to which day it was, I've got no objection.

23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

24 You may proceed, Mr. Re.

25 MR. RE:

Page 88

1 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, are you now able to say with any certainty some

2 11 and a half years later whether it was on the first or the second day

3 that Mr. Karic --

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I can already object even though the

5 question is not finished. This question has got the same problem that the

6 last one had. There's an easy way to ask it if he has to ask it: He can

7 say which day did it happen, the 8th or the 9th?

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, make a simple question.

9 MR. RE:

10 Q. Mr. Arnautovic, was it the first day or the second day of your

11 arrival that Mr. Karic made his comment about throwing Croats into the

12 river?

13 A. I can't be precise. In my opinion, what I can conclude and what

14 I can remember is that it was on the second day. I can't be absolutely

15 certain now.

16 [Prosecution counsel confer]

17 MR. RE: I have no further questions.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just remember those words.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 Judge El Mahdi, yes.

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 [Interpretation] Witness, I have two clarifications I would like

24 to obtain from you. The first has to do with what you said about what

25 happened on the 26th of October, 1993. You said, and I quote in

Page 97

1 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Weiner, the witness is yours.

2 MR. WEINER: Thank you.

3 Examined by Mr. Weiner:

4 Q. Good afternoon. Would you state your name for the record,

5 please.

6 A. Nedzad Mehanovic.

7 Q. And could you tell us your age and date of birth.

8 A. 6th of January, 1969. I'm 37 years old.

9 Q. Sir, I want to go through some of your background, and I'm going

10 to ask you some leading questions so we can go through it quickly.

11 You completed secondary school for mechanical engineering; isn't

12 that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you're employed as a caterer?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You're a member of the Muslim ethnic group?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you're a member of the SDA party in Bosnia.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You have been living in Sarajevo since 1984?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. As you had been born in Srebrenica?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You first joined the TO of Sarajevo in 1992, which is the

25 Territorial Defence unit?

Page 98

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You served -- you then served in the Sandzak Brigade, the

3 military police unit?

4 A. Yes, the Sandzak Brigade.

5 Q. And after that, you served in the 3rd Mountain Brigade.

6 A. In the military police.

7 Q. And you eventually wound up in the 9th Motorised Brigade. Could

8 you tell the Court how you went from the military police unit of the

9 3rd Mountain Brigade to the 9th Motorised Brigade.

10 A. We moved from the Sandzak to Delalic to the military police. I

11 don't know how many months we spent there. And then the 3rd Mountain

12 Brigade was formed in January 1993. I don't know exactly when. But it

13 was in 1993. I don't know which month that the 3rd and the 7th joined

14 together to become the 9th Motorised Brigade.

15 Q. Which unit did you serve within the 9th Motorised Brigade?

16 A. In the assault company.

17 Q. And did the assault company members receive any special training?

18 A. Yes, they did.

19 Q. And what was the role of the assault company?

20 A. Liberation.

21 Q. And where was that located?

22 A. First in Sloga. After that, in the Romanijska.

23 Q. And are these regions within Sarajevo or areas within Sarajevo?

24 A. Yes, in the old town.

25 Q. Now, how many soldiers were within the 9th Motorised Brigade?

Page 99

1 A. I'm not sure. I heard that it was between five to six thousand.

2 Q. And could you tell us who the commander and deputy commanders

3 were.

4 A. Of the brigade or of the assault company?

5 Q. Of the brigade, sir.

6 A. The commander was Sulejman Imsirovic and the deputy was Ramiz

7 Delalic.

8 Q. Now, of these five to six thousand soldiers, were some of them

9 involved in criminal activity in the year 1993? And we're talking about

10 prior to going to Herzegovina in September 1993.

11 A. I wouldn't describe it as "criminal activities." These were just

12 individuals like you would have in any army, individuals like that.

13 Q. Well, what type of crimes would be committed by some of these

14 individuals?

15 A. I don't know.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to approach the

17 microphone, please.

18 MR. WEINER:

19 Q. Sir, are you familiar with a soldier named Mustafa Hota?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And was he a member of the 9th Motorised Brigade?

22 A. From 1993.

23 Q. Was Mustafa Hota and the soldiers associated with him involved in

24 criminal activity?

25 A. I don't know. They were doing something that they weren't -- I

Page 100

1 don't know.

2 Q. Do you recall any problems relating to Mustafa Hota in relation

3 to inciting others to act improperly?

4 MR. MORRISSEY: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, I object

5 to that.

6 Your Honour, I raise an objection to that. There can't be any

7 leading in relation to these matters. I didn't object to leading on the

8 uncontentious things. But I do object to leading from now.

9 JUDGE LIU: And the question is not very clear, you know.

10 MR. WEINER:

11 Q. Do you recall any situations where Mustafa Hota incited others to

12 commit criminal activity? Were you aware of any of that?

13 A. I remember that he was fighting or quarrelling with the police,

14 something like that.

15 Q. Do you know an individual or a soldier named Nihad Vlahovljak?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And what was his position?

18 A. He was the platoon commander, a special platoon. I don't know.

19 As part of the 2nd Battalion, but I'm not exactly sure.

20 Q. And was the 2nd Battalion subordinated to the 9th Motorised

21 Brigade?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And were you aware of any criminal activity by Nihad Vlahovljak's

24 unit?

25 A. No.

Page 101

1 Q. Had you heard - not whether or not you've seen it - had you heard

2 about any criminal activity by that unit?

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Once again -- I'm sorry, I'll just have to stop

4 the witness. Pardon me. Once again, I'll really have to object to that.

5 That question really is so vague and unfocussed in time that it seems to

6 me to be meaningless, for the purposes of these proceedings anyway, and in

7 any event -- well, I just limit my objection to that point.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, you should raise your objections in the first

9 place.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: I do, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: The second question is just a follow-up of the first

12 question. First of all they ask whether you are aware of any criminal

13 activities; then have you heard. Now, it's just a follow-up.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, if that's the way that Your Honour

15 interprets it, then I object on the basis that it's just a repeat in fact.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, since the witness has already answered the

17 first question, so I'll allow it, the witness to answer the second

18 question.

19 Your objection is registered in the transcript.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: As the Court pleases.

21 MR. WEINER:

22 Q. Had you heard of his unit being involved in any criminal activity

23 which occurred prior to September 1993?

24 A. I heard, but not the entire unit. Again, I am saying that this

25 was something that was done by individuals.

Page 102

1 Q. And what type of crimes did you hear that these individuals

2 committed?

3 A. To take some goods from the market, to take it from smugglers.

4 Something like that I heard.

5 Q. Okay. Now, let's move on to September 1993. Could you tell us

6 what occurred in relation to first being called to Grabovica.

7 A. I don't understand. To describe the situation or to go from the

8 beginning or what?

9 Q. Well, could you tell us first where you were in September, during

10 the first week of September in 1993. First, what unit were you in?

11 A. The 9th Motorised, the assault company.

12 Q. And sometime in September 1993, were you called to line up?

13 A. Yes. In front of the brigade in Trampina.

14 Q. And could you tell the Court who was present.

15 A. We heard that and before we lined up -- that we were supposed to

16 go to Herzegovina. We were wearing full combat equipment. We came to the

17 brigade and lined up and then Vahid Karavelic came, the commander of the

18 1st Corps, and he read out an order to us.

19 Q. What did he tell you? Please tell the Court.

20 A. He read the order that -- an order had arrived from the General

21 Staff, I don't know -- for us to go to Herzegovina.

22 Q. Did they explain why you had to go to Herzegovina or did he

23 explain why you had to go to Herzegovina?

24 A. That there was a difficult situation in relation to the 4th Corps

25 there and to liberate Mostar, something to that effect.

Page 103

1 Q. Did they state the name of the operation that was to take place?

2 A. Neretva 93.

3 Q. Did they tell you who your commander would be when you got to

4 Herzegovina?

5 A. Yes. As soon as we crossed the pista, it would be Zulfikar

6 Alispago. We would be under his command.

7 Q. What did you do after they finished speaking to you?

8 A. We got ready, went to the tunnel, passed through the tunnel. It

9 rained heavily that night, so the trucks had not arrived. Then we

10 returned once again to the town. And then on the second night, we

11 actually left. I think it was the 7th.

12 Q. And what was your destination when you left?

13 A. Igman, Pazaric, Konjic, back to Bradina, and then from Bradina to

14 Donja Jablanica, and from Donja Jablanica to Grabovica.

15 Q. And did you in fact follow that route and arrive at Donja

16 Jablanica?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And did you arrive there on the same day as you left or on the

19 following day?

20 A. We arrived at Donja Jablanica at 11.15, as far as I can recall,

21 near Zuka's base.

22 Q. And was that on the 7th of September, the same day you left, or

23 on the following day?

24 A. The 8th of September. I think that's how it was.

25 Q. Now, you said -- did you have with you a diary or did you

Page 104

1 maintain a diary or keep any records of this travel?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And did you have a watch?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Now, you arrived at Zuka's base and -- at Donja Jablanica. Did

6 you stay there very long?

7 A. 15 or 20 minutes.

8 Q. And where did you go from there?

9 A. Two, three, four -- I don't know exactly how many. They showed

10 us the way and took us to Grabovica. These were Zuka's logistics men.

11 Q. When you said, "They showed us the way," do you mean they

12 escorted you?

13 A. Yes. They were in the first truck.

14 Q. Now, how long of a ride is it from Donja Jablanica to Grabovica?

15 A. About 20 minutes, something like that.

16 Q. When you arrived, where did they bring you in Grabovica?

17 A. That's the only way to Grabovica, so it's the road that goes in

18 the direction of Mostar.

19 Q. Where -- within Grabovica, where did they leave you off, you and

20 the other soldiers?

21 A. On the right bank in that village.

22 Q. And did they bring you directly to houses or did they leave you

23 somewhere?

24 A. No. In front of one house, in the front yard.

25 Q. How many people were left in front of -- in the front yard of one

Page 105

1 house?

2 A. About 50 of us. That's how many there were.

3 Q. How long did you remain there?

4 A. Perhaps about half an hour.

5 Q. And then what happened?

6 A. Then they told us to go into the houses.

7 Q. How did you wind up in a house? Did you just walk around and

8 find one, or did someone bring you to one?

9 A. I was taken to one.

10 Q. Who took you?

11 A. The logistics persons who came with us.

12 Q. Now, could you describe the house that they brought you to.

13 A. Yes, I can.

14 Q. Could you please describe it to the Judges.

15 A. It was an old house more or less consisting of a ground floor and

16 an attic. It was the first on the right-hand side at the entrance to

17 Grabovica.

18 Q. Who else stayed in that house?

19 A. I came there towards evening, at about 5.00 or 6.00, with a

20 companion of mine. His name was Haris. When we got there, Crni, Regan

21 and Suljo were already in the house. There were five of us altogether in

22 the house.

23 Q. Were you given any food or did you have to go out and find your

24 own food?

25 A. The first place that they took us, that's where they brought the

Page 106

1 food, to that front yard. Then everybody would take the food and eat it

2 in the houses where they were billeted.

3 Q. Now, after you arrived -- actually, when you say "they brought

4 the food," who is "they"? Who were the persons who provided the food?

5 A. I don't know exactly their names. They were logistics people

6 from Zuka's units, people who were in charge of us.

7 Q. Now, did you stay very long at that house?

8 A. No. Perhaps half an hour to an hour.

9 Q. Now, what did you do after that one half hour to an hour later?

10 A. I went to Jablanica with a friend.

11 Q. And who was that?

12 A. Haris Salihovic.

13 Q. Why did you go to Jablanica?

14 A. I had a lot of friends there.

15 Q. Had you ever been there previously?

16 A. Yes, several times.

17 Q. Had you ever worked with their defence, their soldiers or their

18 defence plan -- their defence unit?

19 A. Yes. When the war with the Croats began, on the 23rd of April,

20 1993.

21 Q. And what did you do then?

22 A. I just happened to be in Jablanica. There was some order

23 regarding uniforms and weapons. I just happened to be there when the war

24 with the Croats broke out.

25 Q. And did you assist them in any way?

Page 107

1 A. Yes. There were about 20 men there that I assembled, because war

2 hadn't broken out there yet, I assembled about 20 men and we took part in

3 the defence together with Commander Kovacevic of the 44th Mountain. I

4 think that's how it was.

5 Q. Okay. Now, how long did you plan to stay in Jablanica that night

6 that you left Grabovica and went to Jablanica?

7 A. Since the accommodation in Grabovica was bad and I had

8 accommodation in Jablanica, I thought that I would spend every night

9 there.

10 Q. Now, did you spend that night, which would have been the 8th of

11 September, 1993, in Jablanica?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And did you return to Grabovica?

14 A. The next day.

15 Q. Approximately what time did you return? What time of the day?

16 A. Around 12.00.

17 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I think it would be a good time to

18 break here before we start the next day.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 Well, witness, I'm afraid that you have to stay here for another

21 night. And as I did to other witnesses, that I have to warn you you are

22 still under the oath, so do not talk to anybody and do not let anybody

23 talk to you about your testimony. Do you understand that?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, completely.

25 JUDGE LIU: So we'll see you tomorrow afternoon.

Page 108

1 The hearing is adjourned.

2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

3 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 16th day of

4 February, 2005, at 2.15 p.m.