1 Tuesday, 22 February, 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Court Deputy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
9 Well, the Trial Chamber has been seized with a motion from the
10 Defence for the release of the VWS report.
11 Yes, Mr. Morrissey.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I think events have passed us by
13 with respect to that report. It's been released to us already. Could we
14 withdraw that motion?
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
16 Are there any other matters that the parties would like to bring
17 to the attention? Yes.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I do have a couple of housekeeping
20 Your Honour, witnesses Cikotic and Jasarevic are coming. They're
21 said to be coming this week. Cikotic is a commander capable of giving
22 evidence concerning certain command -- well, lines of command. He's
23 capable of is shedding some light on certain areas of military doctrine
24 which will be relevant for your consideration when you come to consider
25 part of the case, and it is only part of the case, but when you come to
1 consider that part which concerns command responsibility and the de jure
2 and de facto role of Mr. Halilovic in these events.
3 Jasarevic is a witness of significance too at a high level. He
4 was the head of military security, the -- it's called the SVB. At some
5 point we'll provide some assistance to the Chamber with the acronyms that
6 are used by the different services, but Jasarevic is the head of the
7 military security service and is capable of giving evidence directly about
8 the investigations into both Grabovica and Uzdol and also to give evidence
9 about the lines of command about which you heard some evidence from the
10 witness -- the witness Mr. Gusic but about which will be clearly more
12 Each of those witnesses therefore is going to give evidence of a
13 somewhat technical nature. In neither case do we have proofing notes.
14 Nor do we have a list of the documents to be tendered through those
16 Now, we've already mentioned that the proofing notes have got to
17 come in a timely fashion. With these witnesses, it's not going to be
18 possible to deal with getting their proofing notes the night before. They
19 are not night-before type of witnesses. They are witnesses of
21 If the proofing notes come late, it expands the time of
22 cross-examination. It means that we would be put into the position of
23 having to ask for delays and so on. We don't -- We haven't asked for any
24 delays so far and we want to do that. We want to keep this trial going
25 on. It's going well. And we want to keep that happening. But at the
1 moment we're not being provided with that material. Now, we need it and I
2 ask for it now because there's a -- there's a certainty that the current
3 witness, Witness D, whose name I now have here, will -- he will certainly
4 finish today and the following witness in respect of whom there is likely
5 to be, I'm now told -- I'm told an application for protective measures as
6 well, that witness will not be a lengthy one so we're going to get to
7 Mr. Cikotic tomorrow. That's a certainty. And it's just an
8 unsatisfactory situation from our point of view that we don't have these
9 notes. So I mention it now because we need them. And if we got them by
10 lunchtime today, I would undertake to do everything I can not to -- not to
11 ask for a delay. It may be we don't need a delay because he's otherwise
12 prepared, of course. But it has to happen quickly, and we ask that that
13 be done.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Could I turn to the Prosecution.
15 I believe that the witness told us in his testimony that he had
16 been in The Hague for ten days. If it is true, I believe that the Defence
17 is entitled to have the proofing notes at least a week before his
19 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, in respect to proofing notes, in
20 respect of the witness which is supposed to be coming next, I think those
21 have been provided.
22 In respect of Cikotic, he is being proofed as we speak,
23 Your Honours. And, in fact -- and in respect of Jasarevic, he has not
24 been proofed yet. He just came into The Hague yesterday evening and I'm
25 going to see him today after the court session.
1 Your Honour, perhaps learned counsel does not know the way things
2 are done at this Tribunal, but usually the witnesses are brought just
3 before the -- the evidence and we don't see -- get to see them until two
4 days before, and that's the time we proof them. And the moment we proof
5 them the proofing notes are handed over.
6 And, Your Honours, I would also argue that the proofing notes
7 should not cause any delay to the calling of this witness. All the other
8 statements, all the other material, has been handed over to the Defence
9 and they have ample time to prepare.
10 Proofing notes are just any additional material or any
11 contradictions that the witness has come up with during proofing. So I
12 don't think it's quite fair to say that we are delaying proofing notes
13 because we are not. The moment Cikotic has been proofed, the notes will
14 be provided, and Jasarevic, as I said, has just come in last night, and I
15 haven't even seen him.
16 And in any event, I do not think proofing notes is a good reason
17 to ask for this trial to be delayed to that respect. The proofing notes
18 to date have always been quite short. They have not been particularly
19 significant. And nothing that counsel cannot wrap his mind around at a
20 fairly rapid notice, given that he's got all the other material and knows
21 what these witnesses are going to come to say.
22 And in respect to the documents, Your Honour, it is only after
23 proofing we know the documents which are to be used and we have given --
24 and given them to the court deputy for them to be entered into e-court and
25 we always hand over the list to the Defence as soon as is practical. We
1 have not delayed in this respect at all, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE LIU: Well -- yes, Mr. Morrissey.
3 MR. MORRISSEY: To clarify something that was just said there.
4 Is it being said that the list of documents to be tendered through
5 Jasarevic and Cikotic has been provided to the court deputy? Is that
6 what's being said? Because it hasn't been provided to the Defence here.
7 MS. CHANA: Will be clarified.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Will the counsel please speak into the
9 microphone. Will the counsel please speak into the microphone.
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, please speak to the microphone. You have been
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Your Honour.
13 Your Honour, I'll be very brief about that. There's just two
14 things, in response. Obviously the documents have to be provided to us
15 quickly and the Prosecution know what they're going to put through this
16 witness. They should have provided that long ago. They should provide it
17 now. Saying that the Defence has had ample time really disguises the fact
18 that the Prosecution has been going for three years here. They must know
19 and they do know which documents they want to put through Mr. Jasarevic.
20 Now, it's not oppressive for the Prosecutor to tell us that. They should
21 tell us. We -- that's not prying into the secret councils of the
22 Prosecutor. We need that information. It's axiomatic and I'm surprised
23 that we meet now the comments that we do.
24 When my learned friend says that there's been no changes of
25 significance in the proofing notes. You only have to consider this
1 witness and what he's told the Prosecutors at the last minute concerning
2 his own part that he played. Whereas, the evidence is now in that for
3 years he said nothing about that being right in on the death of Pero Maric
4 and seeing a large number of extra bodies.
5 You can see that the proofing notes are capable of revealing very
6 significant new materials.
7 It's also the fact that it's in proofing that we encounter in a
8 strangely systematic way the allegations that the evil lawyer from Sefer
9 Halilovic's team has been out there either threatening or bribing these
10 witnesses. And so the proofing notes are of importance and should be
11 given in a timely way.
12 Of course, we recognise the realities that the Prosecutor has to
13 live with and we understand that that may be that on occasion somebody
14 will arrive late. But as Your Honour pointed out at the start and my
15 friend didn't respond to, ten days is ten days. And in that case, we
16 still didn't receive the notes.
17 So I maintain the submission that I do. I make it clear I am not
18 now asking for the trial to be delayed at all. I'm asking for it not to
19 be delayed and that's why I'm asking the Prosecutors to hurry up. That's
20 the submission.
21 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, may I just clarify this --
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
23 MS. CHANA: -- ten days. I believe one witness was here ten days
24 because his testimony was put back. And proofing notes had been provided
25 far before that. And the ten days was merely that he -- his testimony was
1 put back. That's why he had to stay in The Hague. It's not that the
2 proofing was done ten days later. It was done immediately and proofing
3 notes were provided.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, I just take that as an example because the
5 witness himself, you know, told us that he had been here for ten days.
6 But anyway, as a principle, I believe that it's the obligation of
7 the Prosecution to furnish the proofing notes as well as the list of the
8 documents to the Chamber as well as to the Defence as early as possible,
9 as early as practical. That is a principle. And we will see, you know,
10 whether there's any, you know, significant matters in the proofing notes.
11 But generally speaking I don't think there are. But maybe in amount to
12 occasions, there's some new elements in the proofing notes.
13 Anything else?
14 MR. METTRAUX: Yes.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
16 MR. METTRAUX: Good morning, Your Honour. Just three very short
17 matters. The first one relates to last week's discussion about the chain
18 of custody of documents.
19 We have reviewed the list of documents which for we requested to
20 receive information pertaining to the chain of custody. And we've
21 withdrawn two documents which could be considered as open-source
22 documents, so we have withdrawn those ones and sent a fourth letter to the
23 Prosecution about the chain of custody, and we would ask the
24 Prosecution -- we have asked in that letter to the Prosecution to act
25 expeditiously considering that some of those documents will be tendered
1 very soon, as early as this week, through the two witnesses which have
2 been mentioned earlier.
3 Concerning the Rule 68 material, we've now received three
4 translations from the Prosecution. We are very grateful for those
5 documents. And we are also very keen to receive translation of the 11
6 other Rule 68 documents concerned by Your Honours' ruling.
7 Finally, we would like to seek some clarification about the issue
8 of the order of the 30th of August. Your Honour will remember that is the
9 order which raised a number of issues in relation to the translation and
10 the three different translations of the documents. And we would like to
11 know whether Your Honour is expecting a motion in relation to this matter
12 from the Defence or if the matter will be dealt with otherwise.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, I'm so glad to hear that there are some
14 translations of the documents, but still it is not enough. I believe that
15 our trial is in process at this moment, so I hope that the Translation
16 Section could put the materials in our case as a priority matter to
17 deal -- to deal with. And, of course, as the August 30th decision, the
18 Trial Chamber will make a decision on that issue because we have heard the
19 both parties' positions on that issue, so there's no need to submit any
20 papers. After all, we try to make it a non-paper trial in this case.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
22 MR. METTRAUX: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
24 And could we have the witness, please.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
3 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.
5 JUDGE LIU: The Defence counsel, Mr. Morrissey, is very kind to
6 inform me that he will let you go back home today. Are you ready to
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
10 Mr. Morrissey.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 WITNESS: WITNESS D [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey: [Continued]
15 Q. Thank you very much, Witness D.
16 Witness, yesterday I was asking you questions at the end of the
17 day about the number of bodies that you had seen, and you'll recall I put
18 to you a statement to a Mr. Mijokovic where you said you saw one body and
19 I also put to you a statement that you made to the cantonal court where
20 you described seeing one body.
21 Now, I want to put to you a statement made to an ICTY
22 investigator named Nikolai Mikhailov on the 27th -- or the 26th -- sorry,
23 on the 25th and 27th of May in the year 2000 where the interviewer was
24 Nikolai Mikhailov and the interpreter was Peter Hewitt. Do you remember
25 giving an interview to Nikolai Mikhailov and the interpreter Peter Hewitt?
1 A. Yes, I do remember giving that statement, but the interpreter was
2 not there most of the time. He might have spent some 15 minutes with us
3 in all, because the investigator spoke Bosnian and he told me that the
4 statement would immediately be on the file in the ICTY online because he
5 was writing my statement into the laptop.
6 Q. Yes. So I take it you didn't get the chance to inspect it and
7 sign it. Is that what you're saying?
8 A. I didn't read the statement, but I signed it.
9 Q. Yes. In fact, you signed every page of it, didn't you?
10 A. Yes, I signed every page, but I wasn't given the statement to
12 Q. No.
13 A. I already said that I had a conversation in relation to this.
14 Q. Yes. Yes. But it's the fact that although -- you don't read the
15 English language, do you?
16 A. No, but the gentleman spoke Bosnian and he told me that the
17 statement was both in Bosnian and English.
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Of course if the statement was in English, it was quite natural
20 for them to translate it for me into Bosnian in order for me to be able to
21 read it. However, nothing came out of it.
22 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness -- I call for the original
23 statement in that matter to be provided to the witness, and I want to ask
24 him some questions about it.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, could I request of the Prosecution
2 that they provide the original copy of this statement as signed by the
3 witness so that the witness can inspect it, please.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, do you have it at your disposal?
5 MR. MORRISSEY: What I have is a marked copy of my own. I
6 understand that the Prosecutor would have it in court as the original of
7 that document.
8 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, we have a copy available but not the
9 original. I'm not sure what the counsel really wants the original. Would
10 a copy be sufficient?
11 MR. MORRISSEY: No. I'm sorry. I cut you off. Yes, I would be
12 satisfied with a copy.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. If you would be kind enough to furnish that to
14 the witness.
15 MS. CHANA: My copy is equally mark as counsel is, so I'm asking
16 our case manager to see whether she can get one. If you can give us a
17 moment, please, Your Honour.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, can I indicate the witness not being
19 an English speaker, I'm not concerned that the witness see any markings or
20 writings upon it. I really want him to see the -- the signatures that are
21 on it and in particular on the last page. So I'm in the Prosecutor's
22 hands, if --
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
24 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, mine has been more than just marked. I
25 think it would be -- we're just sending case manager Ana to go and get a
1 clean copy, Your Honour. And this will be 25th, 27th, 2000 statement just
2 to confirm.
3 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, yes. Well, I'll ask some other
4 questions while that's being done. I'm grateful to the Prosecutor in that
6 MS. CHANA: Thank you.
7 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, thank you.
8 Q. (redacted). Could that be
9 stricken, please.
10 Witness D, didn't you have present in -- present with you at the
11 time that this statement was completed an interpreter named Peter Hewitt?
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours and Madam Prosecutor, I'm referring
13 to page 7 of the -- of the document.
14 Q. Is that right? There was an interpreter called Peter Hewitt
16 A. On two occasions that I spent with Mr. Nikolai, the interpreter
17 was present with us only for some 15 to 20 minutes when Nikolai required
18 his presence, because he spoke Bosnian and thought that he was
19 self-sufficient for a conversation in Bosnian.
20 Q. Well, at paragraph 2 here, Peter Hewitt appears to attest that
21 he's been informed by a name - your name, Witness D - that you speak and
22 understand the Bosnian language. Now, did you tell Peter Hewitt that you
23 spoke and understand the Bosnian language?
24 A. Of course I speak Bosnian. That's my native tongue.
25 Q. Well, Peter Hewitt appears to go on to attest this: "I have
1 orally translated the above statement from the English language to the
2 Bosnian language in the presence of" - your name, Witness D - "who
3 appeared to have heard and understood my translation of this statement."
4 Now, do you agree that Peter Hewitt did in fact read that -- that
5 statement back to you in Bosnian?
6 A. No.
7 Q. He didn't read it back to you in Bosnian?
8 A. No, he didn't read it back to me in Bosnian.
9 Q. Do you --
10 A. Because we -- there was just Nikolai and myself there. I told
11 you. The interpreter was there only for some 15 to 20 minutes and only
12 when Nikolai required him to be there.
13 Q. Well, at paragraph number -- whereabouts did this interview take
14 place, by the way, Witness?
15 A. In the Marsal Tito Barracks.
16 Q. Yes. Well, at paragraph 4, Mr. Hewitt appears to say this. He
17 says you, he gives your name -- but he says: "[Witness D] has
18 acknowledged the facts and the matters set out in his or her statement as
19 translated by me are true to the best of his or her knowledge and
20 recollection and has accordingly signed his or her signature where
22 And then underneath it is a signature, Peter Hewitt, a date, 27
23 May 2000, and another signature underneath that, and that signature
24 appears to be yours, Witness D.
25 Now, first of all, didn't Mr. Hewitt read back this statement and
1 get you to sign an acknowledgment that he had done so?
2 A. First of all, I signed the statement in the presence of
3 Mr. Nikolai and not the interpreter.
4 Secondly, nobody read out my statement to me from English into
6 Q. So if that's Mr. Peter Hewitt's claim, you'd say that's a
7 complete fabrication; nothing like that ever happened?
8 A. Well, I did give a statement, but I did not hear it translated
9 back from English into Bosnian, nor was the interpreter present throughout
10 that time.
11 Q. Yes. All right. Well, on page 5 of that -- of that statement,
12 did you say this? And I'm going to read you a reasonably lengthy passage
13 here. It's about 12 lines or so, Your Honours, and Madam Prosecutor, in
14 the middle of the page.
15 "After Sulejman Lujinovic had told me about what happened during
16 the night, we left the house and walked along the village path towards the
17 entrance to the village. When I left the house, I noticed traces of blood
18 on the village road. We followed the traces of blood and on the ground
19 between the river and the village path we found a dead body. There was a
20 red building opposite the dead body, and on the other side of the path
21 from where the dead body had been found. The body of this man was in
22 civilian clothes. Although I did not approach the body, it looked like it
23 was the body of a man of about 50 to 60 years old."
24 Now, I'm going to stop there and ask you some questions about
25 that passage. Firstly, is that true? Did Sulejman Lujinovic come and
1 tell you some things after which you walked along the path to the entrance
2 to the village and saw a dead body of a man 50 to 60 years old? Is that
3 the truth?
4 A. I only know that Sulejman Lujinovic came to me in the morning and
5 told me that some people had been killed in the village during the night.
6 For the rest, I saw this one civilian and this was immediately next to the
7 road and to the house where people from the Independent Battalion slept
8 and where I had slept.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. So that was next to the Neretva, on the right bank of the
12 Q. Yes. All right. And did you then go on to say this -- well,
13 sorry, I -- did you say -- and what you've just explained there, that's
14 what you told Mr. Mikhailov as well, isn't it, and hence it appears in the
15 statement? Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, I was saying that I saw the body, and that's true, that I
17 did see the body.
18 Q. Yes. Okay. So after telling Mr. Mikhailov that, you went on to
19 say this - and again at page 5, it immediately follows what I've asked
20 about - "Then we proceeded along the village path in the direction of the
21 entrance to the village. We noticed another body lying on the ground
22 between the riverbank and the village road. The distance between the
23 first body and the second body was about 50 metres. The second body was
24 wearing a camouflage -- sorry, a military camouflage uniform. In minute,
25 the body was that of a man of about 35 to 40 years old. I did not know
1 who the man in a military camouflage uniform was."
2 Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about that passage.
3 Firstly, is that true? Did you walk along the village path and notice a
4 man in a military camouflage uniform?
5 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, before the witness answers, perhaps I
6 can indicate to counsel I have now the statement.
7 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm grateful for that. But I'll deal with that
8 in a moment, if I could.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.
10 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Very well.
11 Q. Is that true, that you walked along the village path and that you
12 saw a man in a military camouflage uniform dead?
13 A. I never stated that I saw a dead body in a camouflage uniform. I
14 said that I saw five or six bodies along the Neretva River, and I don't
15 remember the body in the camouflage uniform. I saw the other bodies, the
16 five or six bodies. And as for the camouflage uniforms and as for
17 soldiers, I never stated that they were there.
18 Q. Well, you indicated before -- I read to you a passage about
19 seeing one body, and you agreed that that was true and that you said that
20 to Nikolai Mikhailov. Now, immediately following that -- the Nikolai
21 Mikhailov statement, we have this detailed account of a man in military
22 camouflage uniform. Now, I put it to you that that's in there because
23 that's what you told Mr. Mikhailov. Do you agree?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Are you suggesting that Mr. Mikhailov has simply invented this
1 comment by you that you saw a second body wearing a military camouflage
3 A. Maybe we're talking here about certain other circumstances. Here
4 I am not saying that he made things up. I'm only sure that I didn't say
6 Q. Well, it's not a question of one word though, is it, Mr. Witness
7 D? Here you've indicated that there was a distance, a particular distance
8 between the two bodies of 50 metres. You told him that, didn't you, that
9 there was a 50-metre gap between the two bodies; correct?
10 A. No, I didn't say this. Camouflage uniforms, distances, I didn't
11 look. I didn't measure the distances. There were bodies on the left --
12 on the right bank of the Neretva. There were bodies there. And as for 50
13 metres and that I continued walking with Sulejman and that there were men
14 in camouflage uniforms, bodies, dead bodies in camouflage uniforms, all
15 this is not correct.
16 Q. And you see, you've already indicated that you didn't make
17 contact with any senior officers about what you saw and you've indicated
18 your explanations for that, but of course had you have seen a man in a
19 military uniform, well, that would have been something that threatened
20 your personal security; correct? In other words, somebody was killing
21 soldiers so that would have threatened your personal security if you saw
22 it; correct?
23 A. If I had seen them and if soldiers had been killed, some of the
24 commanders would have said that some of his men were missing because there
25 were only BiH army soldiers there and I'm sure that the fact would have
1 come known.
2 Q. Except for one possibility, Witness D: If you already knew why
3 he was dead and the fact that he was dead. And that's what I put to you
4 is the truth; you did see this soldier and you didn't say anything about
5 it because you knew how he came to be killed. Is that correct?
6 A. I didn't see a soldier. I don't know how soldiers or a soldier
7 got killed. I was never aware of the fact that any soldiers were killed
8 in that village.
9 Q. But this statement was read back to you and signed by you as
10 being read back to you by Mr. Peter Hewitt, interpreter; isn't that right?
11 A. How many times do I have to repeat that the statement was never
12 read to me from English into Bosnian.
13 Q. Just once more after this.
14 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown now the copy of
15 that statement, please, and in particular I'd ask the assistance of the
16 court staff, please, to collect from the Prosecutor the copy that they've
17 kindly provided. And perhaps Court 7 could be displayed on the overhead
18 projector, on the ELMO.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, this witness is a protected witness.
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Oh, yes. Is it --
21 JUDGE LIU: You mentioned that there's some signatures.
22 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour is -- Your Honour is correct. I'm
23 grateful for the -- for the continued assistance of the Chamber in that
25 Well, Your Honour, perhaps it isn't necessary --
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, one solution may be, if I could ask
3 to go into the private session briefly for the purpose of showing this
4 witness the document.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
6 [Private session]
11 Pages 20-23 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 MR. MORRISSEY: You see, there is another question arising out of
18 the taking of this statement
19 Q. In proofing notes to -- rising from your meeting with the
20 attorney Ms. Chana here, we have this sentence: "In respect of Nikolai,
21 the investigate, the witness states that because Nikolai spoke the Bosnian
22 language, Nikolai communicated with the witness directly and the
23 interpreter would not take much part in the interview. The interpreter
24 was typing on a laptop as he was talking. When the statement was
25 finished, it was not read back to him and he signed notwithstanding."
1 Now, does tell Ms. Chana that the interpreter was typing on the
2 laptop as he was talking?
3 A. Yes. When this gentleman, whatever his name is, when he was
4 there for the 20 minutes or so, he was at the desk but he was not typing
5 my statement. He had his own laptop and Nikolai had his laptop and he
6 told me that this statement was being recorded online, via the Internet.
7 Q. Did you tell Ms. Chana that the interpreter was only used
8 occasionally by Nikolai to -- to help with difficulties and was otherwise
9 out of the room at all times?
10 A. He was there for 20 minutes and then he came to Nikolai's
11 assistance. From time to time, when Nikolai needed his assistance with
12 some words, with some explanations of particular words, he would be called
13 in to help. And I am repeating again: If you need me to repeat this 100
14 times, I will do that. He was not present all the time.
15 Q. But, Witness D, we're dealing here with the notes of an
16 experienced and responsible Prosecutor. Are you seriously claiming that
17 you told her that the interpreter was actually out of the room for most of
18 the -- most of the interview? Are you claiming that you told her that?
19 A. I said that the interpreter wasn't there because Nikolai spoke
20 Bosnian. This is what I said.
21 Q. But then let's be specific. You told, according to you, that --
22 you told Ms. Chana that the interpreter was out of the room for the
23 majority of the taking of the statement; is that your claim or not?
24 A. Yes, I believe that this was the case.
25 Q. Yes. Well, I put it to you that that is a flat lie, that you did
1 not tell the prosecuting counsel that at all. Do you agree or disagree?
2 A. I disagree. I said that Nikolai spoke Bosnian, that he did not
3 need an interpreter, and I'm sure that I did precisely that.
4 Q. Very well. So do you agree with me anyway in this regard, that
5 you didn't tell Dragan -- you didn't tell Mr. Mijokovic, you didn't tell
6 Judge -- investigating judge Hadzic, and you didn't tell Nikolai Mikhailov
7 about seeing any more bodies than just one - or in the case of Nikolai
8 Mikhailov, two bodies? Do you agree with that?
9 A. I don't remember. These statements were given under the coercion
10 of the MUP. All these statements were given in the MUP. Whatever I
11 didn't say to them, I have come to state here. And as far as this crime
12 that happened in Grabovica, I've told you everything that I had to tell
13 you. What else do you want me to say?
14 Q. You claimed that the statement to the cantonal court in Sarajevo
15 with Judge Hadzic was done under coercion as well? Is that your claim?
16 A. I did not give any statements to Judge Hadzic, only to Vladimir
17 Spoljaric. I never met with Mr. Hadzic, and this is a lie if anybody says
18 I did.
19 Q. Just excuse me one moment, please.
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Would the Court just excuse me for a moment.
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I'll deal with that matter a little
24 Q. Very well. Thank you. Now, I'm going to -- so -- and finally,
25 you had an interview with Bernard Brun, an investigator, in June of 2004;
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did you -- did you admit to him that you'd seen more than one
4 or two bodies? Did you admit to him that you'd seen your current number,
5 five or six, or did you admit to him the number that you put to Ms. Chana,
6 ten? Did you admit any of those things to Bernard Brun?
7 A. I don't remember what I said, but you can read a statement and
8 you will see there. Whatever I said to Mr. Bernard is the fact, and I'm
9 sure of that.
10 Q. Excellent.
11 A. Well, what I want to put to you is that you said to --
12 Q. Well, what I want to put to you is that you said to
13 Mr. Bernard -- and this is at page 3, Your Honours, at paragraph 19 and
14 20 -- you told Bernard Brun that you'd been approached by a person, a
15 phone call from Sefer Halilovic's lawyer and that the lawyer had asked you
16 to make a material change to your statement in favour of his client, the
17 change being to the effect "I did notice see Sefer Halilovic in Grabovica.
18 I did not accept."
19 And then at paragraph 20, did you go on to say this: "I
20 explained it would be impossible for me to tell a different story to the
21 one I have given several times to the ICTY investigator because -- as my
22 statement is only reflecting the truth"? Did you say that to Bernard
24 A. This is the statement that I gave to Bernard Brun. And what
25 Nikolai and MUP and the CSB wrote down the way they saw fit, this is a
1 different story. As far as I am concerned, I was with Mr. Nikolai in
2 Bembasa restaurant where I worked. Maybe this should be also mentioned.
3 That was in 1998. Because I worked in that particular restaurant even
4 before that.
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Short, dark-haired, sporting a moustache. He was a Russian.
7 Q. Thank you for that information. But what I'm putting to you is
8 that when you spoke to Bernard Brun in June of 2004 - that's just last
9 year - you didn't say anything about seeing five or six bodies or even ten
10 bodies on that occasion, did you?
11 A. There are a lot of things they said or I didn't say, but I have
12 stated them before this Tribunal. Somebody mentioned that I was sitting
13 with Sefer's lawyer, Sefer or somebody offered me money, and until the
14 very last moment Lutvo Mehonic and Azem Mehonic were telling me, "how much
15 money do you need not to say what you said before?" Then I called Mr.
16 Brun to ask him whether I could bring the money that they had given me as
17 evidence. You're not asking me about my safety, about how I was
18 threatened, how I was -- a knife was put at my throat and I was held at
19 gunpoint. You're not asking me about that. You are asking me only about
20 this man who approved all these crimes in Grabovica. Thank you very much.
21 Q. Is it your policy to make that speech whenever you're getting
22 caught out on one of your lies, Witness D?
23 A. I am not making speeches. I'm just giving you the facts. And
24 I'm not lying. I am telling you what happened.
25 Q. Let's deal with some facts, them -- then.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: I would ask now that the -- because of the matter
2 of signatures, I would ask to go back into the private session.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go back to the private session.
4 [Private session]
11 Page 30 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 31 redacted. Private session.
11 Page 32 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.
6 Q. The final question concerning the number of bodies is this: Did
7 you come along to this Tribunal and tell the Prosecutor, Ms. Chana, that
8 you'd seen ten bodies? Did you tell her that because you spoke to
9 Mr. Mehanovic in the hotel room and he told you the Defence are going to
10 catch you out on your story?
11 A. I told Ms. Chana that I saw up to ten bodies, up to ten bodies.
12 And I never spoke to Nedzad Mehanovic about my statements or testimonies.
13 Nedzad Mehanovic and I and all the other witnesses appearing here have
14 their own testimonies. We have been long-time friends. We sat in a bar
15 having a drink until midnight. And then we parted. We never discussed
16 testimonies. Nedzad only told me to pay attention to counsel who may be
17 provocative, who will put to me that I'm liar, and who will put some
18 provocative questions to me.
19 Q. You must have been talking about the Prosecutors, Mr. -- Witness
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes. Yes, Ms. Chana.
22 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, it was a joke. I withdraw it. It was
23 a joke.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not about the Prosecutors.
25 About Defence.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Witness D, could I offer you my apologies. That
2 was not said seriously, and you're entitled to be dealt with seriously, so
3 I withdraw that question and apologise for making the comment.
4 Could I move now to --
5 JUDGE LIU: Well -- well, Ms. Chana -- we have to hear her.
6 MS. CHANA: Thank you, counsel, for their apology.
7 Your Honour, I will take issue with something counsel has said
8 earlier on, and when he says "did you tell Ms. Chana that you're going to
9 be caught out --" I'm trying to find the -- that -- "Did you tell her that
10 because you spoke to Mr. Mehanovic in the hotel room and he told you the
11 Defence are going to catch you out on your story." Your Honour, there is
12 a very strong innuendo there. I find that counsel has been doing this
13 quite persistently. I have held my counsel up to now and I think it's
14 important that counsel do not make such innuendos that I would have been
15 told such a thing and it would not be reflected in the proofing notes. It
16 does nothing but confuse the witness. If they are legitimate questions to
17 be put to the witness, I entirely understand. Counsel does have an
18 onerous burden in defending his client. But I think these are cheap
20 Sorry, Your Honour, I have to say this. As I said, there are
21 many times this has come up. And this time I have to take issue with
22 this, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. I believe that Mr. Morrissey has already
24 offered his apologies to the Prosecution, and I hope that, you know, in
25 the -- in the future proceedings the -- in the direct examination or
1 cross-examination the parties should make less mentioning of the other
2 party unless there's hard evidence to show there's some irregularities on
3 the other party.
4 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I'd seek to respond to both my
5 friend's comments and those that Your Honour has just made.
6 In the first place, there was no -- the initial thing that I said
7 was an ill-timed joke at the end of a passage of cross-examination. It
8 shouldn't have been made. That was what I apologised for, and it had
9 nothing to do with any genuine attack. In fact, any analysis of it would
10 make it quite clear that it was a -- it must have been obvious who
11 Mr. Mehanovic was talking about, and I didn't take -- I didn't mean it and
12 the witness didn't take it and I'm sure no one else in court would have
13 taken that I was really attributing that to the Prosecutor. That was
14 clearly a joke.
15 Secondly, my learned friend indicated that he thought that the
16 question contained an innuendo about the Prosecutor. Now, I want to be
17 quite clear. It didn't. What Ms. Chana puts in the proofing notes, we
18 are sure is accurate. In fact, quite the contrary to what Ms. Chana seems
19 to be concerned about, what I'm putting is that it's the witness who is
20 not now being frank about what he told to the Prosecutors. There is no
21 attack on the Prosecutors. If the Prosecutors tell us that something was
22 said in proofing, we are entitled to rely upon it and we do rely upon it,
23 and we are entitled and we must be allowed to cross-examine upon it.
24 There is no question here of Ms. Chana behaving improperly. To
25 the contrary, we are relying on what she tells us as true. So I want to
1 be clear that she should comfort herself from any thoughts that there's
2 innuendo about her. What's being put is that what she told the Court as
3 an officer of the court, and the Defence, is indeed what she was told.
4 And we are entitled to have that. Ms. Chana has misconceived what the
5 issue is. I'm putting here in asking those questions that the witness
6 will change his ground whenever he feels the need to and will move away
7 from things that he's said even to her even in recent times.
8 Now, there is no valid objection to that line of
9 cross-examination. We're given those notes for that exact purpose, and I
10 have and I intend to continue to cross-examine this witness using that
11 material and other materials that the Defence has provided to it.
12 Secondly, I don't want the Prosecutor to make any more comments
13 such as that it is an onerous task to defend Mr. Halilovic. On the
14 contrary, it's pleasure to defend him. And if comments are to be made
15 like that, let them be made in closing speeches, not in the middle of the
17 Your Honours' comments that personal attacks should not happen
18 are absolutely correct. I hope my words are interpreted at all times as
19 not implying any attack on the Prosecutor unless I were to explicitly
20 state that I was doing that. And I make it clear that I use these
21 documents not for any purpose other than to deal with this witness, not
22 with the Prosecutor. The Prosecutor is entitled to be shielded from cheap
23 attacks, and I make it clear that the Tribunal is perfectly entitled to
24 police that and ensure that the Defence do not do so. But I'm not doing
25 that. We rely as truthful on what we're told in the proofing notes.
1 Now, Your Honour, having thus unburdened myself, I hope that's of
2 some comfort to the Prosecutor, because we're not impugning her integrity
3 in the least. May I now continue with the questions?
4 JUDGE LIU: Any response, Ms. Chana?
5 MS. CHANA: I'm grateful to counsel for that and I do understand
6 and I think it's important that these issues be kept separate and I would
7 just like to clarify one thing when I say counsel has an onerous burden, I
8 did -- I think it has been misunderstood. What onerous burden means that
9 I feel counsel has to do everything in his power for his client and I
10 think counsel is doing a very good job in doing that. So I do understand
11 that. I -- it was a misunderstanding on counsel's part when I said "what
12 an onerous burden." It was not the way it was intended by me. But I am
13 grateful for counsel's remarks.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
15 Mr. Morrissey, you may proceed.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Thank you very much, Witness D. I'll add my final apology to the
18 list that I've just made. I apologise to you for the delay in
20 Now I turn to your actions on the day following the killing of
21 Pero Maric. Where were you at 9.00 the day following the killing of Pero
23 A. On the 10th? You mean where I was on the 9th or on the 10th?
24 Which -- which date are you referring to? The day after or that same day?
25 Q. I'm referring to the day following the killing of Pero Maric.
1 A. I was in my room, because I only just woke up.
2 Q. All right. And, of course, your account is -- all right. And
3 where were you at half past 9.00, half an hour later?
4 A. I had gone out of the house. With me was the gentleman who slept
5 there in the same house, Erdin Arnautovic. Or actually, I -- I'm quite
6 confused now. I can't remember -- I haven't really focussed on the
7 question. I only know that I woke up at 9.00, and I must have been
8 outside the house that I had slept in.
9 Q. And is it the fact that you hesitate about whether you were with
10 Erdin Arnautovic because you suddenly remembered Arnautovic told you that
11 he wasn't there that night. He was in Jablanica? Did you suddenly
12 remember that your evidence might contradict Mr. Arnautovic?
13 A. I didn't see Erdin Arnautovic at all. I only saw him as he was
14 departing for Sarajevo. When I woke up, he was already packed up and he
15 was waiting for the car to collect him and take him to the airport. Then
16 as I came out of the elevator in the hotel, we only saw each other and
17 greeted each other and that was that.
18 Q. I think we're at cross-purposes, Witness D, and I'll take you
19 back to the -- the 10th of -- of September. You've indicated you were in
20 bed at 9.00 in the morning and then at 9.30 you were out of bed. Were you
21 already walking around the village at 9.30?
22 A. When I woke up, I went out and I saw this dead body between the
23 house and -- I saw this trace of blood that went down the path towards the
24 Neretva. Then I proceeded in the direction of the Neretva, where there
25 were these five or six dead bodies lying next to the road.
1 Q. And did you walk as far as the iron bridge or not?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you walk as far as the old railway station in which -- at the
4 entrance to the village at which were located some of Solakovic's soldiers
5 and indeed Solakovic himself?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you speak to any Solakovic soldiers that morning?
8 A. First of all, Solakovic's soldiers were not billeted at the
9 railway station, as you put it, but next to the house that I had slept in.
10 That's the new -- newly built house that we could see on the photograph.
11 And there was never a railway station there.
12 Q. No. Well --
13 A. I never spoke to any of Solakovic's soldiers because I didn't
14 know them and that's true for the entire independent group there.
15 Q. Did you see any of Solakovic's soldiers when you went out on this
16 walk of yours at around 9.30 on the morning of the 10th?
17 A. I don't remember.
18 Q. Did you speak to any -- did you see any refugees who had crossed
19 over -- or sorry, did you see any refugees at all during that walk of
20 yours at around 9.30 on the morning of the 10th?
21 A. The refugees weren't there at all. They were on the other bank
22 of the Neretva River in those cabins there and I never paid any attention
23 to them.
24 Q. Isn't the real truth this: There were a number of refugees over
25 on your side of the village during the time of the killings?
1 A. Only in one house, where there were four or five of them; two
2 children, a wife, and a husband.
3 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P79.
4 I'm sorry, Your Honour, it may be my mistake, but we don't have
5 the one I asked for there on the screen. I'm asking for -- it's a
6 photograph, and I believe -- it was a panoramic photograph. I believed it
7 to be P79.
8 Q. Okay. Witness D, do you have in front of you now a photograph
9 which has a number of small yellow numbers and small yellow arrows upon
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Very well.
13 MR. MORRISSEY: I would ask some assistance from the court staff
14 to assist the witness to put some marks upon this map -- on this
16 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please speak into the
18 MR. MORRISSEY:
19 Q. Very well. On that map, would you please indicate -- well, first
20 of all, on that map -- do you see on that map the small -- the white house
21 with no roof that you say you were sleeping in in Grabovica?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. All right. Could you now draw with a dotted line the course of
24 the walk that you took and stop the dotted line at the point where -- at
25 the furthest point that you went.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Okay. And would you please indicate -- yes. No. Thank you.
3 MR. MORRISSEY: I tender that document.
4 JUDGE LIU: No objections? Yes, it's admitted into the evidence.
5 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Defence Exhibit D189.
6 MR. MORRISSEY:
7 Q. Very well. And after that walk, did you go and ask Nihad
8 Vlahovljak what happened?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you hear any shooting at that time when you were going for
11 your walk?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you see any masked men wandering the village at that time?
14 A. No.
15 Q. After that part of the walk, did you then walk up to the Pero
16 Maric house, the scene of the killings the night before?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Where did you go?
19 A. I went to this house where this last arrow is. There's a friend
20 called Regan there. I talked to him there and returned back to my house.
21 Q. Very well. Could you please mark the house on that map -- I'm
22 sorry, now -- that's been tendered into evidence now.
23 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown MFI189.
24 And I'm going to get you to mark a couple of other things now.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Could I ask the assistance of the court staff to
2 help the witness to mark this exhibit.
3 Q. This MFI189 that you are about to be shown is the -- is the
4 exhibit that you just marked a minute ago with the -- the course of your
6 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I'm not sure the -- do I notice that
7 there's a technical problem?
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, there's a technical problem. Could you please
9 ask this witness to re-mark it --
10 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.
11 JUDGE LIU: -- on this new photograph.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Could I inquire: Did we lose the markings on the
13 previous one? No.
14 Very well. We would proceed again. If the witness could please
15 be shown P79 again and we'll start from the start again.
16 Q. Thank you, Witness D. Perhaps you'd just bear with us while
17 we --
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we should have a break and during the
19 break this issue could be solved.
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, yes. And just to make sure it's
21 clear what's going to be done, I'll ask the witness to mark P79 with a
22 couple extra locations.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. When we come back.
24 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Thank you.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll have a break and then we'll resume at
2 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, I was told that the technical problem has been
5 fixed, so, Mr. Morrissey, please continue.
6 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.
7 Q. Thank you very much, Witness D.
8 Would you please --
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown now P79.
10 Q. And do you have in front of you once again that photograph with
11 the yellow arrows?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be given some assistance
14 to draw on that again.
15 Q. All right. Could I just get you to mark just once again -- I'm
16 sorry to do this to you, but because I neglected some other things, I want
17 you to do it again. Could you mark with a dotted line once again the walk
18 that you took at about 9.30 from your white house and along the -- the
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. Thank you. Now, could you indicate, please, where you went after
22 that with dotted lines. You've indicated that you went to see a friend
23 called Regan, so can you indicate the course that you took to Regan's
25 A. This is the house here.
1 Q. All right. Would you please place a number next to that house,
2 number "1".
3 A. Which number once again.
4 Q. Just put it --
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Yes, that's correct. You've marked it correctly. Is that the
7 same house at which an individual named Turkovic, nicknamed Crni, was
9 A. Crni did not reside in this house. He resided in this house over
11 Q. Is the number 1 also the house where your friend Mr. Mehanovic
12 was residing?
13 A. Mehanovic? I saw him the first time only, and after that I
14 didn't see him again. He was walking around. He didn't stay in one place
15 only, and he was -- he stayed here.
16 Q. When you say -- could you mark Crni's house with a number "2",
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. And at which house do you say Mehanovic lived?
20 A. The first night when we arrived, he was in this house, as far as
21 I know.
22 Q. Could you mark with a "3" which house he was in the first night.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. I see. So just -- you've written that quite small. You're
25 referring to Crni's house; is that correct?
1 A. Crni and Mehanovic.
2 Q. And can you mark with a "4" the house at which Mehanovic stayed
3 after that, on the second night.
4 A. That, I wouldn't know. I was not with Crni. I don't know where
5 he stayed, where he slept.
6 MR. MORRISSEY: Very well. Well, I tender -- excuse me one
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Sorry, pardon me.
10 Q. Just to be clear about that, I'm asking about Mehanovic on that
11 second night. Did you understand that was my question?
12 A. I said I didn't know. I don't know where he slept the second
13 night. He was in the village, but I don't know where he slept on that
14 second night. He was in the village though.
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Well, I offer this document for tender.
16 JUDGE LIU: No objections, I guess. So it's admitted into the
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness now --
19 THE REGISTRAR: It will be --
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry.
21 THE REGISTRAR: -- D190.
22 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness now be shown photograph P177.
23 Q. While this is being prepared, Witness D, I'm not going to ask you
24 to mark this. I'm just going to show it to you and ask you to comment.
25 [Defence counsel confer]
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Now, I just -- oh, sorry, it's coming.
2 Q. Very well. Do you now have in front of you a photograph with two
3 numbers marked on it inside red circles?
4 A. I do.
5 Q. Do you see the house on the right-hand side with number "1"?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. Well, the other day -- in fact, on the 16th of February,
8 Mr. Mehanovic marked this photograph. He indicated that that house number
9 1 was the one where he stayed. Do you agree with that or not?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you walk as far as that house on your morning walk or not?
12 A. No. There was no need for me to go there because none of us
13 members slept in that house.
14 Q. But Mr. Mehanovic was your friend, wasn't he?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Didn't he sleep in that house?
17 A. I don't know. I didn't sleep with him to know --
18 Q. All right.
19 A. -- that.
20 Q. During the time after you woke up at 9.00, 9.30, 10.00, 11.00,
21 did you hear or see any shooting at all?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you hear or see any Croat civilians fleeing the village?
24 A. [No interpretation]
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the answer.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, the interpreter didn't hear your
2 answer on that occasion. Would you mind repeating it.
3 A. No. No.
4 Q. Did you notice any civilians crying out in fear of being raped or
5 killed or robbed or otherwise mistreated?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you see Ramiz Delalic on that day, the day after the killings
8 of Pero Maric and his wife?
9 A. Yes. No, no, not on that day but the following day. Ramiz
10 Delalic came with two children that he brought. I don't know where he
11 found them. Maybe on the road to Jablanica as he was going towards
12 Grabovica to see what happened -- what had happened. The crime had taken
13 place in Grabovica and he came with two children. That was on the 10th.
14 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to come to that in just a moment. But
15 as far as you're concerned and as far as you saw, all the killing was
16 finished by the time you got out of bed at 9.30 in the morning the day
17 after the Pero Maric murder; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, as far as I know.
19 Q. Very well. That following day, it's your account that -- let me
20 just ask you some questions about the chronology so that I'm not confusing
21 you in any way. Do you say that on the 10th of September, being the day
22 after the Pero Maric killing, according to you, that the following things
23 happened in order: Number one, you woke up and saw some bodies; number
24 two, somewhere in the middle of the day Zuka arrived; and then number
25 three, later in the day Ramiz arrived with the two children?
1 A. Yes. I did not see some bodies. I saw five or six bodies along
2 the Neretva --
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. -- river.
5 Q. I think we've -- we've been through that already and I'm just
6 talking now about the -- about the timing of events. So is it -- is it
7 your allegation that Zuka arrived in the village at about midday --
8 approximately midday, or do you say earlier or later than that?
9 A. In the afternoon he came with his soldiers with lorries. He put
10 up checkpoints. And I can show those checkpoints to you in the photo. He
11 put up checkpoints in Grabovica. He said that nobody was to leave
12 Grabovica without his approval, not a single soldier could leave Grabovica
13 during that period of time without Zuka's arrival. He picked up the dead
14 bodies. He loaded them onto the lorries and took them away. I don't know
15 whether he loaded all the bodies, where he took them, in which direction.
16 I don't know. I didn't hear and I was not abreast of that.
17 Q. Now answer my question: Approximately what time did Zuka arrive?
18 A. It was in the afternoon. Maybe around noon. Maybe around 1.00.
19 I can't be more precise than that. But in any case, it was before 3.00.
20 I can't be more precise than that. I was -- I was not checking the time
21 at the time.
22 Q. Approximately how long do you say Zuka was there before he left?
23 A. Maybe half an hour. He picked up the victims --
24 Q. Yes. All right. And how long after Zuka left did Ramiz arrive
25 with the boys?
1 A. I don't know. It -- it may have been 10, 15 minutes. They might
2 have even crossed paths, the two of them.
3 Q. And so how long was Ramiz in the village, approximately, with the
4 children before he took them off to Jablanica?
5 A. Fifteen minutes. He lined us up and the children recognised
6 soldiers from our units. That's how long it took him to stay there.
7 Q. The interpreter rendered your answer then as "the soldiers [sic]
8 recognised some soldiers from your units." Is this an interpretation
9 issue or do you say that the soldiers really did recognise -- the children
10 really did recognise the soldiers?
11 A. No. They were supposed to identify us. We were lined up, and
12 the children went from one soldier to another with Ramiz. Ramiz had a
13 pistol in his hands and he was going to punish the person who had murdered
14 his family.
15 Q. Yes. I'm going to ask you detailed questions about this in just
16 a moment, but I'm just trying to get the chronology under control first.
17 So after -- so Ramiz left, you would say, in the middle of the afternoon;
18 is that correct?
19 A. Yes, sometime in the afternoon. I don't know when exactly. I
20 only know that he didn't stay long. He took the children, and he left for
21 Jablanica, to the command there.
22 Q. Okay. And after that, you didn't see the children again; is that
24 A. No.
25 Q. And later on that afternoon, coming towards evening, did Ramiz
1 arrive back at Grabovica?
2 A. Ramiz returned within an hour. He returned to Grabovica. We
3 were lined up. And in the evening at dusk we left off for Dreznica, which
4 was to be our starting position for the first action that was supposed to
5 take place in order to take the Antena.
6 Q. What time did you -- approximately -- well, I'll ask you this:
7 When you left for Dreznica, was it already dark?
8 A. Yes. Dusk.
9 Q. Okay. Now we have the shape of what you say happened on the
10 10th. I'm going to ask you some specific questions about Zuka and his
11 involvement. Is it your claim that when Zuka came, he arrived in the
12 village of Grabovica in person?
13 A. Yes, Zuka in person. I know him. I have known him since 1992
14 from Igman. He was the commander of that unit on Igman and then he
15 withdrew to Jablanica once Igman fell.
16 Q. All right. Now, what I put to you is that he arrived and he did
17 indeed set up checkpoints at that point. Do you agree with that?
18 A. Yes, he did set up checkpoints.
19 Q. But what I put to you is that you have made up the detail that
20 Zuka took the bodies away. Do you agree with that?
21 A. It was not Zuka himself but his soldiers that collected the
22 bodies, loaded them onto the lorries, and left together with Zuka.
23 Q. Yes. Yes. Yes. But Zuka was -- according to you, Zuka was
24 present right there while these villagers were loaded into trucks and
25 taken away. Is that your claim?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did Zuka ask you, "Who did the killings"?
3 A. No. He did not voice any comments. He did not ask any
5 Q. Yes. Which one of the 9th Brigade left Grabovica prior to this
6 and told Zuka what had happened?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. It certainly wasn't you.
9 A. No. I doubt that anybody went to tell the story.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Yes. Were you aware of whether or not Zuka was actually very
13 fond of these villagers from Grabovica and had treated them very well in
14 the preceding weeks? Were you aware of that or not?
15 A. No, nobody told me about that.
16 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... did --
17 A. The villages we are very fair and correct towards us, though.
18 Q. Certainly. But did Zuka appear to you to be terribly unhappy and
19 distraught at seeing the bodies of the dead Croat villagers, some of whom
20 he knew?
21 A. I don't know. I did not hear him comment or talk to any of the
22 soldiers in Grabovica. Of all the troops, he didn't talk to anybody.
23 Q. Well, that was --
24 A. He didn't voice any comments about what happened, how it
1 Q. Yes. This was my next series of questions for you. You're
2 suggesting that Zuka came to the village and cleaned up the 9th Brigade's
3 mess and didn't ask you any questions about what happened? Is that your
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. That's just a lie by you, is it not?
7 A. No. No, it's not a lie.
8 Q. What about the body of the soldier, one of Zuka's own soldiers
9 who you saw dead by the side of the road? Did he ask you any questions
10 about that?
11 A. No. I did not see the body of any dead soldiers by the road.
12 Q. You didn't see the body of a soldier by the name of Kavlovic dead
13 by the side of the road, a soldier of Zuka's?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Why did you tell Nikolai Mikhailov in that statement that we
16 looked at earlier on that you'd seen a dead body of a soldier in military
17 camouflage uniform?
18 A. I denied all of these statements. What I'm saying here is the
19 truth. I'm giving this evidence under the oath. Whatever I said before,
20 I'm denying everything.
21 Q. Did you know whether or not Zuka actually rescued some surviving
22 Croat civilians from the village on the 9th of -- well, I won't ask you
23 about a date. I'll just ask you first of all generally. Did you know
24 that Zuka rescued some surviving Croat civilians?
25 A. I don't know that Zuka saved any Croats. I only know that Ramiz
1 Delalic saved the children, and that is a fact, and they are still the
2 living witnesses of that. I don't know about anything else.
5 (redacted) But let's just stay with Zuka for the moment now.
6 I want to put a different proposition --
7 MS. CHANA: [Microphone not activated]
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Prima facie I'm always wrong on these topics
19 because of my criminal record, but I just haven't seen the line which my
20 friend is referring to. I'm sorry. Could it just be specified which line
21 it is and I might be able to comment.
22 MS. CHANA: Line 188.8.131.52. That's the line. Yeah, 21.22 --
23 okay. Sorry, 22, 23, if you can read that, and 52, page 52. Page 52.
24 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, Your Honour, the page that my friend
25 is referring to, is that page 52? Because that doesn't seem to be --
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
2 MR. MORRISSEY: Line 22? Is that ...?
3 MS. CHANA: I'm beginning to lose the line now. Yes, 22 to 23.
4 It says: "Question," and it starts with: "Well, not only ..." It's
5 going to the top of the page now. It's four lines down.
6 MR. MORRISSEY: I see. Yes. Well, pardon me. Well, I agree
7 with my friend.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll have it redacted.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. I'm grateful to the Prosecutor for pointing
10 that out.
11 Q. Yes. Well, pardon me. I was about to put to you a different
12 proposition about Zuka. I want to put to you that it's you and your
13 friends who disposed of the bodies by burying them. Do you agree with
14 that or disagree?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Were those people who were present at the killing of Pero Maric
17 enlisted to do burying work?
18 A. As far as I know, no. I did not hear any such order or command
19 from anybody. I didn't hear anybody ordering anybody else to bury those
21 Q. What about telling those present at the killing of Pero Maric to
22 help with killing the rest of the village? Were you in complete ignorance
23 of that as well, Witness D?
24 A. No. No.
25 Q. Are you blaming Zuka because you really do need someone to blame,
1 Witness D?
2 A. I'm not blaming anybody. I'm just giving you the facts. Zuka
3 came to pick up the dead civilians and take them away, and I don't know
4 anything else. I'm not blaming Zuka for anything.
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown a clean copy of
6 P79. Once again I'm going to ask the witness to have the opportunity to
7 mark this.
8 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, can I take the opportunity of a little
9 lull here? Can my submissions also be redacted before we go too far down
10 the line, in respect of this matter that I raised?
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. As I said before.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Thanks.
13 Q. Do you have a clean copy of that photograph in front of you now,
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Would you please mark with a "1" and a "2" the checkpoints set up
17 by Zuka.
18 A. [Marks]
19 Q. Were there any checkpoints set up by the 9th Brigade?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Would you please mark with a number "3" in a circle where you
22 first saw the two boys with Ramiz.
23 A. In front of the house where we were lined up, the house where I
24 had slept. This is where we were lined up.
25 Q. What sort of car -- sorry. I'll stop there.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I tender that -- that document. I offer it
2 for tender.
3 JUDGE LIU: I guess there's no objections?
4 MS. CHANA: No objections.
5 JUDGE LIU: It's admitted into the evidence.
6 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Defence Exhibit D191.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, thank you for that.
9 Q. What sort of car did Ramiz arrive in when he brought the
11 A. A jeep.
12 Q. A jeep?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what sort of car did he depart in when he left with the
16 A. The same jeep.
17 Q. And what was the colour of that jeep?
18 A. I don't know. I can't remember. I can't remember.
19 Q. Was he with a man from Zuka's unit with the nickname Spaga or
20 Spago, who was a brown-haired man between 30 and 40 years old carrying a
21 Heckler & Koch submachine-gun -- sorry, automatic rifle?
22 A. I know Spago, and I didn't pay any attention to the moment when
23 Ramiz got out of the car with the two children. He was so angry that I
24 really didn't pay attention to who else came with him. He only ordered us
25 to line up in the meadow, and he said, "If any of the children recognise
1 any of you, I will personally kill that person."
2 Q. And in that line-up, was Dino Arnautovic included?
3 A. I don't know.
4 Q. You don't claim that Dino Arnautovic is the one who drove Ramiz
5 back to the village with the children and then subsequently drove him back
6 to Jablanica again, do you?
7 A. I don't know actually who was there and who was missing. There
8 was some 50 to 60 soldiers gathered up there, and these were really small
9 children. I'm not really sure that they were able, as they were
10 panic-stricken and afraid, to point out and identify who the killers
11 were. And at that point I wasn't thinking about who was present and who
12 was absent. I only know that the children went from one person to the
13 other and failed to identify anyone. As for the presence of Dino
14 Arnautovic, I cannot claim either way.
15 Q. Yes. Now, why is it that you said -- you suggested that Ramiz
16 may have collected these children from the road to Jablanica? Was that
17 based on something you were told or something that you saw?
18 A. When Ramiz came to the village with these children, he said that
19 he had found these small children distressed, weeping. He found them on a
20 certain section of the M17 highway. They had told him that there was this
21 crime in Grabovica that they had seen with their own eyes, their parents
22 getting killed, and he said that he put them into his car and said, "I'm
23 going to show you -- to identify the people who murdered them." And
24 that's how things happened.
25 Q. Okay. Now, Witness D, just to be clear about the details of
1 that, this is what Ramiz himself told you, isn't it? It's not something
2 you've just made up? Is that correct?
3 A. I was there when he came with the children. There's nothing for
4 me to really make up. Besides, these children are still alive and they
5 can testify to the fact that Ramiz had saved them. Nobody else needs to
6 corroborate that.
7 Q. But just to be precise about it, the details of where it was that
8 Ramiz found them were told to you by Ramiz himself; is that correct?
9 A. I've never told the story, not even now, as to where Ramiz had
10 found the children, and I really don't know where he had found them, at
11 which point of the road. If I knew, I would tell you that he found them
12 at this and at this section of the road.
13 Q. Of course. I understand that. But I'm just using your words.
14 You mentioned the M17, and you mentioned that to this Tribunal for no
15 other reason than Ramiz mentioned the M17 to you. Is that accurate?
16 A. Nobody mentioned the road to me. I know that the road is M17.
17 That's where the road branches off in the direction of Grabovica, and this
18 took place somewhere along the road and I know the name of the road.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: Just excuse me one moment, please.
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 Q. Okay. Now, on page 57, at line 8 in your evidence a minute or so
22 ago, you said this: "When Ramiz came to the village with these children,
23 he said that he'd found these small children distressed and weeping."
24 Now, that was the evidence you gave a minute ago and that's the
25 truth, isn't it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you went on to say this: "He found them on a certain section
3 of the M17 highway." And that's what you told the Tribunal a minute ago
4 and that's what Ramiz told you; correct?
5 A. Yes, that's the denomination of the road, and it was along that
6 road that he had found them.
7 Q. Yes. And you know that not because you were there watching him
8 find them but because Ramiz told you that; correct?
9 A. I know about that because Ramiz had brought them over. Had it
10 been someone else, I would have known it as well. Because Ramiz, as he
11 arrived, very angry and nervous, he lined us up furiously in order for the
12 children to identify the murderers. It was at that point that Ramiz saved
13 the children and took them away to Jablanica. I don't know what happened
14 to them eventually.
15 Q. But just please try to focus on the precise question that you're
16 being asked. You told this Tribunal that he found them on a certain
17 section of the M17 highway; those are your words. And what I'm asking you
18 is: Did Ramiz tell you that he'd found those children out on the highway?
19 A. Yes, he told me so, that he had found them along the road from
20 Jablanica to Grabovica. I didn't know anything about him finding them. I
21 just know that he brought them over.
22 Q. Witness D, please understand, I'm not accusing you of being
23 present when he found these boys. And I understand what you say about
24 where you were. But just to be perfectly clear about it, Ramiz was
25 telling you that he found the boys on the Jablanica-to-Grabovica road not
1 on that little side road which led into the right bank of the village; am
2 I correct about that or am I wrong?
3 A. No. I'm -- I call that road M17. He said that he had found them
4 along the Jablanica-Grabovica road, which is called M17.
5 Q. Yes, I understand what you're saying --
6 A. It's -- I could tell you otherwise that it was on the Blagaj
8 Q. One moment.
9 A. I'm saying that it's M17.
10 Q. That's okay. Am I right in understanding you in this way: Ramiz
11 indicated that it was the highway but he didn't actually use the words
12 "M17"; is that correct?
13 A. On the road from Jablanica to Grabovica, and I'm saying that
14 that's M17. That's what I said.
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. It's all the same. He could have said that it was on the M17 or
17 on the Jablanica-Grabovica road. The children were found and saved.
18 Q. That's okay. I understand your evidence on that point. Thank
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I want to put a proposition to this
21 witness from another witness, and because of the matters raised by my
22 learned friend before, I think we should go to the private session.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
24 [Private session]
11 Page 61 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 MR. MORRISSEY:
9 Q. Did you ever see either of those children sleeping at Pero
10 Maric's house?
11 A. I had never seen the children until Ramiz brought them over. I
12 had never seen the two boys, underage boys. The first time I saw them was
13 when Ramiz lined us up when they went from soldier to soldier to identify
14 the killers.
15 Q. Your house, the white house without a roof, was only about 50
16 metres away from Pero Maric's house, wasn't it?
17 A. It could be only -- far more than that. Not about 50, but at
18 least 100 metres.
19 Q. Let's extend it to 100 metres then. It was a place where during
20 your time in the village a base for your soldiers was established; is that
22 A. I haven't understood. What do you mean "set up, established"?
23 Q. Yes. Well, sorry, I'll take that back. It was a place where
24 the -- it was a place where Ramiz went, quite frankly. Do you agree with
1 A. I don't know what you're talking about. What are you referring
2 to? Where did he go?
3 Q. Did Ramiz go to that house on the evening before the line-up took
4 place to visit the two boys?
5 A. I don't know about that. I only know that I saw Ramiz Delalic
6 the day he brought the children and I don't know anything else. I saw him
7 that day. I saw him that day when he brought the children and went away
8 with the children, and then I saw him when he came back and we set out for
9 Dreznica. So these were the two occasions that I saw them on, on the 10th
10 and -- now, I don't know if there were any other times that he came to the
11 village. I didn't see him.
12 Q. And wasn't Pero Maric's house the place where stolen livestock
13 was brought, stolen cows, calfs, goats, that sort of thing?
14 A. Sir, this village was a very poor one, and I don't believe there
15 was anything to steal there. There were just elderly people there. There
16 was nothing to really be stolen. And you're claiming that we had a
17 logistics centre there, and that's not true. As far as I know, nobody
18 ever brought anything from Grabovica or took home with them.
19 Q. Were no calfs -- cows tied up outside Pero Maric's house waiting
20 for you to eat them at a barbecue?
21 A. As far as I know, we only slaughtered this one sheep or goat
22 given to us by an old lady, and that was on the 8th. That's all I know.
23 For the rest, we were receiving food from Zuka's base at Donja Jablanica.
24 Q. And the lady who gave you that -- that goat, where is she now?
25 A. I don't know. There was a Muslim refugee living together with a
1 Croat family at this one house. Now, I didn't know them. We weren't
2 relatives really in order for me to know which house they were in.
3 Q. What happened to this lady who gave you the goat?
4 A. This lady was there before our arrival and after we left
5 Grabovica heading for our operation.
6 Q. Was this lady a Muslim or a Croat?
7 A. A Muslim.
8 Q. Where did she get a goat to give you?
9 A. Why don't you ask the woman.
10 Q. Well, you'll have to forgive me, but I must ask you.
11 A. How should I know? I hadn't been living with them in the village
12 in order to know where she got the goat from. You have to ask the woman
13 where she got a goat or where -- whether she had a goat to give away.
14 Q. What was her name?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. All right. Very well. Now, whatever else may be said about
17 Ramiz's present or absence in the village before this time, you deny that
18 Ramiz came to the village the evening before this line-up took place; is
19 that correct?
20 A. I don't know whether he was there. I didn't see him. Perhaps
21 others may know more about it. I don't know who has information about it
22 and who doesn't.
23 Q. All right. Now, after the line-up occurred, Ramiz took the boys
24 in to Jablanica and he returned about an hour later, as you've indicated.
25 Now, when Ramiz came back after the boys were safely in Jablanica, why
1 didn't you - and I mean you, Witness D, not you the whole lot of you, but
2 you personally - why didn't you go and approach him at that point and say,
3 "I know who the shooters are"?
4 A. Because we didn't have time at our hands in order to talk to
5 people, because Ramiz arrived, the troops packed up, and then within the
6 half hour set out for Dreznica.
7 Q. Did he --
8 A. We knew that we had the orders from the Supreme Command headed
9 by -- no, he remained there. I don't know where he went from there.
10 Q. You didn't actually get any written orders until you got an order
11 from Zuka on the 11th of September headed "Operation defence of people's
12 rights, Vrdi 93"? Isn't that accurate? A combat order signed by Zulfikar
14 A. I don't know who signed the order, but it wasn't on the 11th. It
15 was on the 10th in the evening that we set out from Grabovica. It was at
16 dusk. Whereas, on the 11th, the attack on the Antena took place. And on
17 the 12th, the attack on Golubic --
18 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter didn't catch the name of
19 the other place --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- took place. And that was in the
21 direction of Herzegovina.
22 MR. MORRISSEY:
23 Q. And on what date -- well, I withdraw that. Very well.
24 All right. Now, my last series of questions concerns the course
25 of the investigation and so on from that day on until the present day.
1 And then you are finished with cross-examination, Witness D.
2 Now, it's the fact, isn't it, that on the -- that on the 26th of
3 October you were questioned in the course of Operation Trebevic, a joint
4 operation by military security forces and the civilian police, also known
5 as the MUP, M-U-P; is that right?
6 A. It wasn't the military security but, rather, the court, because
7 nobody interviewed us from the military security body.
8 Q. All right. And you've indicated how you were treated by those
9 people, but questions I've got now relate to the topic of the questions
10 they pressed you about. Now, just listen carefully to what I put to you
11 and tell me if it's accurate.
12 Those questioners during the Trebevic operation questioned you
13 about a number of different matters, not just Grabovica but also the
14 supposed armed rebellion concerning members of the 9th Brigade and
15 civilian police in July; is that accurate so far?
16 A. That's true. They did interrogate us in relation to these
18 Q. And they also interrogated you about other alleged crimes, real
19 or made up. Is that true too?
20 A. Since I wasn't charged with any criminal offences, they didn't
21 have any business questioning me about them. I don't know for the others.
22 Q. No, I'm not suggesting that you had committed any criminal
23 offences yourself, leaving aside, of course, Grabovica itself. What I'm
24 putting to you is those interrogators were trying to get you to admit to
25 things that you hadn't done. Is that true?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And they were obviously trying to frame and set up Ramiz Delalic;
3 is that correct?
4 A. I don't know what you have in mind. What sort of a set-up?
5 Q. Well, that's okay. Perhaps the question wasn't a very good one.
6 Did they ask you a lot of questions suggesting that they thought Ramiz had
7 committed many different crimes?
8 A. Not as many. Only a few.
9 Q. Yes. Okay. As far as you could see, the accusations that they
10 were making were false, untrue accusations; is that the case?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. They did ask you a limited, small number of questions about
13 Grabovica and the killings there; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, only once, and then the whole operation was drawn to a close
15 by those in the authorities who were powerful enough to bring the
16 proceedings to a stop because it was in their interest.
17 Q. Well, let me just be clear about the questions that you were
18 asked before we jump to the political side of this. You were questioned
19 not just about Grabovica but about Sefer Halilovic and his role; isn't
20 that true?
21 A. They were questioning everyone, but it was all taking place under
22 pressure, duress. We were being threatened with life imprisonment,
23 regardless of whether we are guilty or not.
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. These were the kind of threats we were faced with.
1 Q. Yes. Look, and I better be clear with you. I'm not disputing
2 with you that you were placed under severe and improper pressure at the
3 time. But if you just deal with the question precisely. They did ask you
4 questions at that time about Sefer Halilovic and his role in this
5 operation; correct?
6 A. They were basically putting the same question to everyone. They
7 were trying to have the case suit them. They would just put a question to
8 you and ask you to answer in the affirmative or the negative without
9 having any possibility to provide any additional explanations, because you
10 were there treated as if you were the aggressor, the Chetnik. That's how
11 they treated me in -- at the court and in the prison in Sarajevo. It was
12 in the end Mr. Jusuf Jasarevic who released me and told me, "We deeply
13 apologise. You were not to be blamed for anything and we hope that you
14 would remain in the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina."
15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, I'm afraid you did not answer the
16 question put to you by Defence. The question is: They did ask you
17 questions at that time about Sefer Halilovic and his role in this
18 operation; correct? Answer yes or no -- it's a yes or no answer.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
21 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.
22 Q. And just following on from that: At the time when they asked you
23 those questions, it was obvious to you at that time that they were no
24 friends of Sefer Halilovic. Do you agree with that?
25 A. I don't know whether they were his friends or not. I only know
1 that Mr. Sefer Halilovic was removed from his position at the time and
2 that he was placed under house arrest. I don't know what their position
3 towards him was, but that's what the then-authorities decided upon. I
4 don't know whether the command was involved. But I was never asked about
5 my opinion of Sefer Halilovic. I thought that he was a good commander and
6 that he was a good strategist.
7 Q. Okay. I understand that. Now, I want to put to you your words
8 from the interrogation which took place on the 31st of October, 1993,
9 while you were detained during Operation Trebevic. This is in the
10 material provided to the Defence and to the Chamber by the Prosecutor,
11 Your Honours, and it appears at the bottom of page 2.
12 Did you tell the -- the police at that time this -- I'm going to
13 read it to you so that you've got a clear picture of what you told the
14 police and then you can comment upon that.
15 "A month after these events, the assault detachment was again
16 sent to Herzegovina front under the command of brigade commander Ramiz
17 Delalic, also known as Celo. We spent a total of seven days in
18 Herzegovina. We operated on Antena Hill above the village of Vrdi and on
19 Mount Medved."
20 Now paragraph: "During the attack, the assault detachment was
21 divided into two combat group, one of them attacking Mount Medved, the
22 other, Antena Hill. Together with Nevzet Sabanovic, also known as Troka;
23 Jasmin Medic, also known as Mede; Ertan Hukalic, Safet Koca, Nedzad
24 Mehanovic, Amir Jusovic, Samed Memovic, Amel Cengic, Safet Dermaku, also
25 known as Sok, Fadil Kurgac, Semsudin Herak, and Sulejman Lujinovic, also
1 known as Lujo, I attacked Mount Medved. Together with us the men from the
2 unit known as Cedo's Wolves took part in this attack. During operations
3 on the Herzegovina front, the group I was in did not take part in attacks
4 on any inhabited places.
5 "Upon our return from Herzegovina to Sarajevo, Commander Ramiz
6 Delalic rewarded me, Nevzet Sabanovic, Sulejman Lujinovic, Jasmin Medic,
7 and Ertan Hukalic with pistols for courage shown. I received a Browning
8 extended 9-millimetre 14-plus pistol, factory number 7654.
9 "After we returned, we rested and carried on with our regular
11 Now, firstly, have you understood what I read to you there?
12 A. I have. But Ramiz was not the commander in Herzegovina.
13 Q. No, okay.
14 A. We were not under his commander at the time.
15 Q. Okay. Okay. I understand that. But do you agree with this:
16 Despite being asked about Sefer Halilovic's role, you said nothing at all
17 about him being present or indeed Vehbija Karic being present at the time
18 when the comment you allege about killing the Croat civilians was made?
19 Do you agree there's not a reference, not a word about that in that
20 section I've just read to you?
21 A. I don't know. Believe me, this is the statement that I deny.
22 They could have written whatever they wanted. But I am saying that Sefer
23 Halilovic was the commander of the Neretva operation. He was the Chief of
24 Staff. As for the rest, I don't know. The gentleman is here and he can
25 tell you whether this is the truth or not.
1 Q. What I'm putting to you is this: You didn't tell those
2 investigators at the time anything about Karic making the -- the comment
3 about killing civilians and you didn't mention anything at all about Sefer
4 Halilovic being nearby when this supposed comment was made, did you? Do
5 you agree with that or not?
6 A. I do not agree. This is what suited them. This was the policy.
7 This is what they wrote. If they agreed with what you said, then they
8 took your words as they were said. If they didn't like you, then they
9 distorted your words. If they needed you, they did one thing. If they
10 didn't need you, then they did another thing.
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. I'm sure that they have distorted my words. They wrote down
13 whatever they wanted to.
14 Q. Certainly. But you're not suggesting that they've hidden
15 something negative you said about Sefer Halilovic, are you? You're not
16 suggesting that they've covered up something negative to Sefer Halilovic,
17 bearing in mind that he, too, was under house arrest and under
18 investigation at that time, Witness D?
19 A. This is all good and well, but they were looking after number
20 one. Sefer also had somebody above him. He was not omnipotent. He had
21 to talk to somebody about all these things. Maybe they -- these people
22 were looking after themselves. The men at the top of the army knew a lot
23 of what was going on. I don't know. I'm sure that things got covered up.
24 There's a lot of that going -- still going on in Sarajevo.
25 Q. Now, from that day that you were released from custody, you did
1 not approach the authorities and tell them about the killings that you
2 were close to or about the behaviour of Karic and Sefer Halilovic until
3 the year 1998; isn't that true?
4 A. Nobody ever asked that again. They started on the 26th of
5 October, and this was not their goal.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. There was a story being -- unfolded that suited nobody. And I
8 said that and I said it yesterday. I've said it a number of times. I
9 don't know what else to tell you. And once I left the central prison, I
10 no longer wanted to be a member of that army because of the way I was
11 treated and humiliated. I fared much worse off in that central prison
12 than any aggressor would have.
13 Q. Well, just -- I understand what you say about that, but just
14 stick with the questions for the moment. It was in 1998 that you first
15 spoke to people in authority about what you say happened in the village of
16 Grabovica; isn't that true?
17 A. No. In 1993, on the 26th of October - it was after that, maybe
18 November, December - when I gave the first statement to Mr. Vladimir
19 Spoljaric. And that was the only statement that I gave while I was in the
20 central prison for four and a half months. The only statement I gave was
21 that one.
22 Q. Yes. But the last thing you wanted to happen, the very last
23 thing you wanted to happen, was for this series of murders in Grabovica to
24 be properly investigated; do you agree?
25 A. I was powerless in that. It was -- it was war. And one life
1 lost -- even to this very day in Sarajevo these things happen. I was just
2 an ordinary person who couldn't do anything. And there were people above
3 us, there were commanders, this commander, that commander, the commander
4 of the army, the Chief of Staff, the president of the state, and so on and
5 so forth.
6 Q. All right. Well, I want to put to you that you and your
7 colleagues who were present at the killings were very worried about Sefer
8 Halilovic - and I'm going to list some reasons and then you can comment
9 about it - you were worried about Halilovic because you knew he had given
10 Namik Dzankovic the task of investigating this very crime on the night of
11 the 9th of September. That's the first thing. I'm going to go through
12 these in turn.
13 And, secondly, you were worried about Sefer Halilovic because in
14 1995 he came out in the press demanding an inquiry into the Grabovica
16 And the third thing you were very worried about is that you knew
17 that Sefer Halilovic had approached the ICTY himself in 1996 asking that
18 these matters be looked at.
19 So I put it to you on those bases, which you can comment on, that
20 by 1996 you and the killers feared Sefer Halilovic and his campaign to
21 have the truth come out. Now, do you agree with that or not?
22 A. I had nothing to fear. I am not guilty of anything.
23 And secondly, I know Sefer Halilovic very well. We have
24 socialised. He came to my restaurant on several occasions. I asked him
25 what was going on with regard to Grabovica. He said, "Nothing. Nothing
1 will come of that."
2 From 1964, the 1st of May, when I started working at Bembasa, I
3 worked until 1997. Up to the month of March he was a guest there. And he
4 never uttered any comments with -- with that regard. We were rather
5 close. We were -- we greeted each other. We talked to each other.
6 Q. I've asked you this question in other contexts, Witness D, but
7 I'll have to ask it in this context too: Did you get round to telling the
8 Prosecutor or the investigators or anyone else about these meetings and
9 discussions with Mr. Halilovic in 1997?
10 A. Those were not meetings. Those were not conversations. It was
11 part of my work. He came to the restaurant where I worked. I was a
12 waiter there. And that's when our contacts occurred. These were not
13 meetings. We would just greet each other. Sometimes we would laugh, tell
14 each other a joke.
15 Q. That's okay. But you knew about his campaign in the press,
16 didn't you? You knew about that.
17 A. No, never. I never read any such thing in the newspapers.
18 Q. Did you know that he wrote a letter to Izetbegovic in 1995 asking
19 that the matter be fully investigated?
20 A. I was not a member of the Presidency to know whether Izetbegovic
21 received letters from Sefer Halilovic or not.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am just a mortal being in Bosnia,
24 a person who is trying to survive. I am not into politics. That's
25 something I can't discuss. This is so far removed from -- from me.
1 MR. MORRISSEY:
2 Q. Once you knew that Sefer Halilovic was pressing for an inquiry,
3 did you and other members of the 9th Brigade take -- have a meeting in a
4 restaurant called the Kiborg?
5 MS. CHANA: Your Honour -- I'm sorry, Counsel. I don't think he
6 said that Halilovic was pressing for an inquiry. I think the witness has
7 actually stated the opposite. The question was: Once you knew that Sefer
8 Halilovic was pressing for an inquiry. Your Honour, the witness has
9 categorically stated the opposite, that he didn't know.
10 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, my friend's both wrong and right about
11 that. So there's another problem with the question. I'll ask the
12 question again.
13 Q. After 1996, did you have a meeting in a cafe called Kiborg with
14 other members of the -- ex-members of the 9th Brigade to discuss how you
15 were going to respond to the dangers of a potential investigation into
17 A. No.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Can we go into the private session, please.
19 JUDGE LIU: Let's go to the private session, please.
20 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 MR. MORRISSEY:
7 Q. And after that, in 1998 did you make the statement that you've
8 already been cross-examined on to an officer called Dragan Mijokovic on
9 the 20th of March, 1998? Is that correct?
10 A. I've already commented upon these statements. What I'm saying
11 here is the truth. And as for these statements, they were fabricated to
12 suit somebody's needs, in the MUP, in the CSB, in the Bosnian courts. It
13 was all a set-up.
14 Q. In that statement on the 20th of March, 1998, was that the first
15 time you'd ever mentioned Sefer Halilovic's name in connection with the
16 Karic threat or not?
17 A. The first time I mentioned that, what had happened in Grabovica
18 and that Sefer was the commander of the Neretva operation, was in the
19 statement 1993, on the 26th onwards, during that period of time. I can't
20 recall the exact date.
21 Q. Yes. And then you went to the cantonal court on the 30th of the
22 11th, 1998 signing the record of the hearing of the witness, which has
23 been tendered into evidence; isn't that true?
24 A. I didn't understand. What statement? Of which witness?
25 Q. The -- the document I showed you earlier on with Judge Ibrahim
1 Hadzic, clerk Edina Djurdjevic, which you said was a fabrication. Do you
2 recall that document being shown on the projector?
3 A. Yes, I remember it and I remember my signature. But this was
4 never read to me. All these statements were written down the way it
5 suited them. One thing would be added. One thing would be taken out.
6 You have to understand that. The only truth is what I'm saying now as I
7 sit here before this Trial Chamber.
8 Q. And then on the 25th and 27th of May of 2000, you spoke to
9 Nikolai Mikhailov in the presence of the interpreter Peter Hewitt and
10 produced a statement which you signed and had read back to you; is that
12 A. It was never read out to me. I've told you that already. And
13 the interpreter wasn't there. You're asking me to confirm something that
14 is not the case.
15 Q. And then on the 15th of June, 2004 you were interviewed by
16 Bernard Brun.
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 Q. And on that occasion, that document was read back to you in the
19 same way that the previous one was; correct?
20 A. Bernard Brun was there and the interpreter was there and the
21 interpreter read out the statement, unlike the previous time when Nikolai
22 was there but the interpreter wasn't and the statement was not read out to
24 Q. Did you point that out to Bernard Brun, say, "Gee, you do things
25 differently to Nikolai"?
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. All right. And in all that time you remained friendly and in
3 contact with Ramiz Delalic? That's correct, isn't it?
4 A. No, not correct. Ramiz was at large for five years. He was out
5 of Sarajevo. He was not even in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and only for the last
6 year he was in prison in Sarajevo.
7 Q. Yes. When you say he was at large, what you mean is he was a
8 fugitive from an incident that took place near the Saraj Hotel in 1997; is
9 that correct?
10 A. He was a fugitive but not because of that but because of a
11 previous sentence that was -- he was supposed to serve six months in
12 prison. I don't know why.
13 Q. Yes. Sorry. Pardon me. You're right about that, and I stand
15 You recall there was an incident at the Saraj Hotel in 1997 in
16 which the police wrongly accused Ramiz Delalic and you of joint offences
17 against a man called Basovic? Is that true?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And the allegation was that you and Ramiz were jointly
20 racketeering - it's a false allegation, but that was the allegation;
22 A. That's what -- what they claimed, but it was not true.
23 Q. Yes. Well, I understand that, and you've never been convicted of
24 that offence, have you?
25 A. No, I was never convicted. I didn't spend a single day in prison
1 save for the time that I spent in prison from the 26th of October when I
2 was arrested by the state. I did have a few misdemeanours, but I am an
3 honest citizen, a law-abiding citizen, and I live with my family. We are
4 all law-abiding citizens.
5 Q. Well, look, I'm not challenging you about misdemeanours, minor
6 things, or anything of that nature. So set that at risk. I'm only asking
7 you about the 1997 matter for one reason, and that is this: You were a
8 close associate of Ramiz in 1997, weren't you?
9 A. We were friends, not associates. I don't know what you mean by
11 Q. All right. Well, as a general proposition, to conclude those
12 statements, I want to put this to you: In all of those statements that
13 you made, you minimised your involvement and in all of those statements
14 that you made, you attacked Sefer Halilovic because -- well, perhaps I'll
15 break it into two questions because it's unfair wrapped up into one. Do
16 you agree that you minimised and significantly minimised your own
17 involvement in all of those statements that I've just put to you? Do you
18 agree with that or disagree?
19 A. I didn't minimise anything. I was just a foot soldier. I didn't
20 have any rank. I was not a commander. I was just a mere mortal.
21 Whatever I said is exactly what happened. I am not attacking Sefer,
22 Vehbija, or anybody else. I just told you the truth. And I'm not blaming
24 Q. Secondly, I put to you that you attacked Sefer Halilovic in those
25 statements because he was a danger to you; in short you attacked him for
1 the very reason that he was calling for an inquiry; yes or no?
2 A. He never called for any inquiry. Newspapers may have mentioned
3 that, but if he had called for an inquiry, this would have been done, like
4 any other inquiries that have taken place in Sarajevo ended up in
5 convictions. If in 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, anybody had raised
6 that issue, all these people would have been convicted. What I am saying
7 here is that nobody in the top echelons wanted this inquiry to take place.
8 Sefer Halilovic was the minister in the government. He was in charge of
9 refugees. He liked his position and it was not in his interest to -- to
10 call for any inquiries.
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Now, just wait a moment.
12 The deal with this issue: Do you know a political party called the SDA?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Was that -- was that Alija Izetbegovic's party?
15 A. Alija Izetbegovic is dead; however, he was the founder of that
16 party, rest in peace.
17 Q. Was that also the party of Bakir Alispahic?
18 A. I don't know, and I was never interested in that. I was never a
19 member of any party. I was just not interested in that, so I wouldn't
20 know what party he was a member of.
21 Q. Sefer Halilovic was and remains the leader of an opposition
22 political party to the SDA, doesn't he?
23 A. I don't know what you mean. It's a very small party. I don't
24 know why -- why they would be like a big opposition. I don't know why the
25 SDA would have anything to fear from that small party.
1 Q. I'm not asking you whether they've got anything to fear from that
2 small party. I'm just asking you to confirm to the Tribunal that Sefer
3 Halilovic is the leader of his own party to your certain knowledge.
5 A. Yes, he was the president of that party of his. I don't know
6 what his position in the party is now, since he is here. In any case, he
7 founded that party in 1994 or 1995. I don't know really.
8 Q. Okay. And that party was not part of the SDA. It was an
9 opposition political party; correct?
10 A. I don't know. Really, I was not a member of any party. I just
11 know the names, SDA, SDP, BPS, and so on and so forth. And I really don't
13 Q. Yes. But just --
14 A. Whether they're opposition, whether they're a party in power, I
15 don't know. I -- the only concern I have is how to survive. I couldn't
16 care less about any party or people in power. I don't know.
17 Q. But when you say Sefer Halilovic was a minister in the
18 government, he became a minister in the government after being elected at
19 a democratic election standing for his own political party; is that not
21 A. I suppose so. I'm sure that that was the case. If he hadn't
22 been elected, he would not have been minister, I suppose.
23 Q. No, that's right. But when you pointed -- made the point that he
24 was a minister, you know very well, don't you, Mr. Witness D, that he's
25 not a member of the SDA and he never has been a member of the SDA; isn't
1 that so?
2 A. You know how things are. Parties come together. They -- they
3 talk. Then when there are elections, when they are elected into
4 parliament, they spend in parliament for three months, and then they all
5 come together. There's one thing when they appear in public and another
6 thing goes on when they're in private at the same table.
7 Q. Yes. But as you've indicated, you're a mortal man and you don't
8 sit at that high table, do you? Is that correct?
9 A. Well, of course.
10 Q. Okay. So what you can go on -- just --
11 A. And there is no single mortal who can be put at the same table
12 with them, who can find himself at the same table.
13 Q. Okay. Well, I understand that. But just come back to the
14 original question I asked you: You know that Sefer Halilovic was never a
15 member of the SDA party, don't you?
16 A. I didn't know that. Perhaps he was.
17 Q. I see. Okay. All right. The final questions concern this: On
18 the 25th of January of this year, just a few weeks ago now, you were
19 telephoned by Bernard Brun, the ICTY investigator; isn't that correct?
20 A. Yes. I don't know the exact date, but I do know that he phoned
21 me concerning my arrival here.
22 Q. That's right. Now, at that time, you claimed to him that you'd
23 got 12 telephone calls on a mobile phone; isn't that right? You made that
24 claim to him?
25 A. Yes. Yes, that I received his call -- that I received
1 threatening calls.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
3 MR. MORRISSEY:
4 Q. Yes, 12 of them on your mobile phone; correct?
5 A. Some 10 or 12 calls that were placed on my mobile phone, but I
6 could not trace them back.
7 Q. Well, did you provide your telephone to the authorities for the
8 purpose of them tracing back these telephones?
9 A. That's to no avail. Besides, I didn't have spare time to spend
10 with the police and that sort of people. I knew that this would not come
11 to anything anyway. Whenever something takes place in terms of a murder,
12 a car bomb, in our country or any such threats --
13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... please just stick to the
15 Now, did you provide the telephone to the local police and, if
16 not, did you provide the telephone to Bernard Brun so that he could pursue
17 his inquiries?
18 A. No. Bernard Brun wasn't there. He was in The Hague.
19 Q. Did you --
20 A. Otherwise. And that's when we spoke on the phone. I merely
21 reported it to him, that there were such threats against me.
22 Q. Why don't we do it now. Why don't you provide your phone now to
23 The Hague authorities and then those numbers can be traced back.
24 A. I'll provide you with my mobile right away. Here it is.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Give it to the Prosecutors.
1 Q. And are those numbers preserved still in that telephone?
2 A. No. If weren't. How could they have been when the phone can
3 only memorise up to ten calls and I had calls in the meantime?
4 Q. So they've all gone.
5 A. I didn't memorise them. I didn't store them. Besides, the
6 callers were hidden. You didn't have the caller ID on the phone when they
8 Q. All right. And you went on to tell Mr. Brun at that time --
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Is -- this is at paragraph 12 of that affidavit,
10 if the Court pleases.
11 Q. You're still willing to testify and you're not going to change
12 your witness statement under any conditions. That's what you told Bernard
13 Brun, isn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That you were going to stick to your witness statement; correct?
16 Is that right?
17 A. That I was going to come to The Hague to testify, regardless of
18 the threats and of what might happen to me.
19 Q. No, no, no, no, no. That's not the question. You said that
20 "I am still willing to testify and I am not going to change my witness
21 statement under any conditions." That's what you told Bernard Brun, isn't
23 A. Over the phone, yes.
24 Q. Yes, that's right. You didn't tell him at that time -- just a
1 A. This must be some sort of a mistake.
2 Q. No, no, no, no, no. Look, let's wait.
3 You didn't tell Bernard Brun at that time that you'd seen ten
4 bodies -- at least ten bodies, and you didn't tell Bernard Brun at that
5 time that you were right there when Pero Maric was shot, did you?
6 A. Yes, I didn't say that then, but I say it -- said it now before
7 the Trial Chamber. Why would I tell them -- I was there in Nedzarici in
8 the UN office and I was called by a lawyer and we met in the bar --
9 coffee-shop where they offered some money to me to change my testimony.
10 So all the information was leaking. There was no security in place. Why
11 should I risk my life? Would have place your life at risk right now? I
12 mean, we're not children, are we?
13 Q. As to that 50.000 Deutschmarks, did you take that money? Did you
14 accept the money?
15 A. No.
16 Q. It could have been useful, couldn't it, to accept the money with
17 the fingerprints of the bribing person upon it? Did you speak to the --
18 take investigators, the ICTY investigators about this and say, "Look,
19 they're offering me a bribe"?
20 A. Yes, I did phone Mr. Bernard Brun and asked him whether I
21 would -- should take the cash that they were offering me, these 50.000
22 German marks, and he told me that this was not advisable. I said, "But I
23 could bring it over as evidence." But he dissuaded me from it, and that's
24 what I stated here in The Hague.
25 Q. In amongst all of the threats, bribes, and all the other things
1 that have happened, have you ever actually been injured or have you ever
2 actually received any money?
3 A. I wasn't injured and I didn't take any money.
4 Q. Because if anyone wanted to shoot you, they had plenty of
5 opportunities, didn't they, Witness D?
6 A. Well, I don't know. God knows what might happen upon my return
7 to Sarajevo.
8 Q. Yes. But just -- no one knows what will happen in the future.
9 But right now as things currently stand, you've been working in restaurant
10 disclosure, I don't want to know the precise addresses of anywhere now.
11 But you've been working in restaurants for many years and you've been easy
12 to find, haven't you?
13 A. Probably that this would be no problem for them. Well, they are
14 free to do what they wish to.
15 Q. Yes. Okay. Anyway, on the 28th of January, once again, Mr. Brun
16 called you.
17 A. No, that's not correct. I phoned Mr. Bernard Brun and then he
18 phoned me the following day. That was actually in the evening, at 12.30
19 a.m. I phoned the ICTY.
20 Q. Well, we have a -- an affidavit here - and I'm just going to give
21 you your chance to say what you want to say about it - from Mr. Brun, who
22 says: "On the 28th of January, 2005, at 16.15" -- this is at paragraph 13
23 F the Court pleases -- (redacted)
24 (redacted) -- "I called [Witness D] once again with the aim to get the
25 lawyer" -- the name -- I'm sorry, I'm being asked to slow down, Mr.
1 Witness D, so just excuse me a moment, please.
2 I'll read it again from the start: "On 28 January at 16.15, I
3 called [Witness D] once again with the aim to get the name of the lawyer
4 who offered him money at" -- a certain cafe, which is referred to in
6 "Witness D said I could not get this information, but I have to
7 explain that last night" -- something happened. You went on. And
8 that's what he says about who made the phone call. Is it your claim that
9 you made the phone call or not?
10 A. In the evening on the 27th, I called him and Bernard Brun
11 answered the phone. There was no interpreter. And since I don't speak
12 any English, I merely introduced myself and rang off. That was my attempt
13 to report this threat. And then the following day in the afternoon
14 Mr. Bernard phoned -- or rather, through the interpreter - her name is
15 Vesna, I believe - and then I told him the story as it happened that night
16 in my entranceway of my apartment, where there were four masked people.
17 One of them held me at gunpoint. The other held a knife at my throat.
18 And they threatened that I had to change my testimony or otherwise.
19 Q. Yes. Okay. Well, we'll get to that frightening incident in just
20 a moment.
21 Right at the moment you're saying --
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Morrissey, are you going to finish your
23 cross-examination in five minutes?
24 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm going to finish this part of it in -- in two
25 minutes, I think.
1 JUDGE LIU: I mean the whole.
2 MR. MORRISSEY: Not in five, but in -- in a period approximating
3 half an hour and it could be less. And as usual, a break tends to make it
4 go shorter.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, you know, we have been sitting here for one
6 hour and 40 minutes. I think that's the extreme, you know, for -- for the
7 tape, you know.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: It is, Your Honour. Could I just say this:
9 There's two minutes of this topic, but I'm in the Court's hands.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, please finish this.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Thank you.
12 Q. Thanks, Witness D.
13 Well, now, your claim -- you then -- so just finally: You say
14 you rang Bernard Brun on the night of the 27th. And I want you to specify
15 what time of night you called him.
16 A. You have to believe me when I tell you that I don't know. I
17 can't remember now. I'm all confused. When I returned from work, I
18 believe that's when it happened.
19 Q. Yes. Okay. And just finally, did you call him on your own
20 mobile phone or -- or a home phone? I don't want to know the numbers, but
21 which phone did you use to call him?
22 A. My mobile phone.
23 Q. All right. And you're able to provide that phone number to the
24 Prosecutors if needs be; correct?
25 A. I have Bernard Brun's mobile phone at home. I don't have it here
1 with me. Here I have Ms. Vesna's number.
2 Q. No, you misunderstand. Your own telephone number, the number of
3 your own mobile upon which phone you made this call on the 27th, you can
4 give that number to the Prosecutors, can't you?
5 A. Yes. Yes, I can give them my number. Of course.
6 Q. So the telephone records are going to reveal your telephone call
7 to Bernard Brun at a certain time on the 27th; correct?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, move on to what you said in this call. You told Bernard
12 Brun that these men came and put a knife under your throat, and you did
13 not mention in that telephone conversation anything to do with the gun, I
14 suggest to you. Do you agree or not?
15 A. I don't agree. I did mention it, but this must have been a
16 misinterpretation. It was an error of interpretation. I did mention it
17 to Bernard and to the gentleman from the security. I don't know what the
18 name of the lady was, the one who came. I spent some 45 minutes with her
19 in the car as we were moving around the town.
20 Q. Very well. I'm going to ask you about that after the break.
21 MR. MORRISSEY: That's the end of that part, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll take a break for 25 minutes. We'll
23 resume at ten minutes past 1.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.44 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 1.12 p.m.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey. Try to finish your cross in 20
3 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I'm aiming for about seven or eight.
4 So we'll see what can be accomplished.
5 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
6 Well, following the conversation with -- with Bernard Brun, you
7 then spoke to members of the Witness -- Victims and Witnesses Unit and you
8 told them on that occasion that you'd had a gun put to your head and
9 didn't mention the knife; isn't that right?
10 A. No, I told them what I told Mr. Bernard, that there was a knife
11 at my throat and that there was a man holding a gun next to him.
12 Q. Okay. And -- and in due course you came to Hague and you arrived
13 last Tuesday night; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, on the 15th at around 11.00 in the night.
15 Q. Yes. And you spent until about 12.30 that night drinking beer
16 with your friend Mr. Mehanovic; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You also saw Dino Arnautovic that night?
19 A. [No audible response]
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the answer.
21 MR. MORRISSEY:
22 Q. Would you repeat your answer. The interpreter didn't hear it.
23 A. No. No.
24 Q. And you said heard that night that Dino Arnautovic had just given
25 evidence and it had gone pretty badly; correct?
1 A. He didn't tell me anything of the sort. He only told me that
2 Dino was there and that he went out into town. I never heard anything
3 of -- about Dino's testimony. I only knew that he was to go home the
4 day -- two days later.
5 Q. And it was after the conversation with Mr. Mehanovic that for the
6 very first time you revealed to attorney Chana that you were right there
7 when Pero Maric was killed and that you'd seen ten bodies or more;
9 A. As for my conversation with Nedzad Mehanovic, we never discussed
10 these matters, and I already told that to the lady during my proofing
12 Q. Yes. But just deal with my question. It was after the
13 conversation with Mehanovic that for the first time ever you revealed to
14 attorney Chana that you had in fact seen more than a couple of bodies;
15 you'd seen ten bodies; and that you were right present when Pero Maric was
16 brutally killed. Do you agree with that or not?
17 A. I definitely told to Ms. Chana or to the Trial Chamber here.
18 I've already said that on several occasions before this Tribunal.
19 Q. Yes. But you'd never said it before you told Ms. Chana, had you?
20 A. I didn't have occasion to and I would not feel safe enough. Who
21 would provide me any guarantees if I were to say something like that in
22 Sarajevo? I was exposed to threats anyhow. God knows how the situation
23 might have gotten complicated had I really told so at that early stage.
24 Q. Did you receive a pardon from the government in 1995?
25 A. I was pardoned in -- I was released in 1994, not in 1995. Jusuf
1 Jasarevic came, who was chief of security of the Republic of
2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, or so I believe, and he came with release papers. I
3 was released from the central prison in Sarajevo and it was on that
4 occasion that he apologised to me, said that I was not to be blamed for
5 anything, and that he hoped that I was going to continue my service for
6 the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
7 Q. In fact, that's exactly what you did do, because after being
8 released from prison you came back and fought more. Is that correct?
9 A. No. No.
10 Q. Did you join the 105th Brigade, as some other previous soldiers
11 of the 9th Brigade did?
12 A. I didn't join any brigade. I was in the records of the 105th
13 Brigade whilst I wasn't in the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina at all from the
14 26th of October until the end of the war, until the Dayton Accords. So I
15 wasn't a member of any brigade. I worked as a waiter.
16 Q. Well, just to clarify your status there, please, is the situation
17 this: That upon your release from prison, you were officially listed as
18 being a member of the 105th Brigade but in fact you never did take up your
19 position there? Is that an accurate way to capture the situation?
20 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Witness D, you and I have parted company on a lot of matters here,
24 but I just want to conclude by asking you about a couple of things. You
25 actually spent a lot of that war being shot at by the aggressor and put in
1 grave danger of a personal kind; correct?
2 A. I took part in combat activities. What does that mean that it
3 poses a threat? There was danger in our everyday actions involving the
4 aggressor. I was in the army and I can't say that I wasn't firing,
5 shooting. I was on the front line.
6 Q. And farce -- as far as you were concerned, you were fighting to
7 save the homes and the lives of your family and community from the ethnic
8 cleansing and the atrocities that you thought might come from the
9 aggressor; is that true?
10 A. Yes, I was fighting for myself and my family. All those fighters
11 who remained in this country, in this town, did so in order to protect
12 their families, to prevent the Serb army, the aggressors, who had
13 committed genocide against us, from entering the town.
14 Q. Yes. And you yourself never did favour the idea of ethnic
15 cleansing against Bosnians of a Muslim or a Serbian or a Croatian
16 background; is that true?
17 A. Yes. Why should I be in favour of that? I never distinguished
18 people according to their names. I never thought anything along those
19 lines would have happened. I would not have been wounded in May 1992 had
20 I thought so.
21 Q. And whatever may have been the policies of the Republika Srpska
22 and whatever may have been the policies of the HVO, as far as you were
23 concerned, you knew of no policy of the Bosnian army or the Bosnian
24 government to commit ethnic cleansing but, rather, you understood your
25 army to be fighting for a multi-ethnic Bosnia; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. In the town that I stayed in in Sarajevo, I don't know how
2 many thousands of Serbs and Croats, people of other ethnicities, who
3 continued living there, who were members of our units, Serbs and Croats.
4 They were all there. And together we fought for this one and united
5 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
6 Q. Witness D, thank you for your patience in answering the
8 MR. MORRISSEY: And that's the end of the cross-examination.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Mr. Morrissey. But I have to say that you
10 unintentionally [Realtime transcript read in error "intentionally"]
11 disclosed the identity of this witness - that is not allowed - for several
12 times, you know, during this proceedings. So in the future, I hope you
13 could bear in mind my warning, and that kind of practice should not be
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, I do bear it in mind. Is
16 Your Honour referring to something recent or just the general --
17 JUDGE LIU: The general comments from the very beginning --
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.
19 JUDGE LIU: -- of your cross-examination up to now.
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, could I just indicate one
21 thing in relation to what Your Honour says. I did not intentionally
22 disclose it --
23 JUDGE LIU: I know. I know that.
24 MR. MORRISSEY: It just seemed to come out that way on the
1 I acknowledge inadvertently doing it. We now have this document
2 designed to warn me to say it. I do acknowledge that I did it, and I'm
3 very sorry for doing it, and I'm happy to abide by any device or any
4 assistance that anyone can give to keep me in line. And frankly, I do put
5 it down to inexperience in this jurisdiction. I take it seriously,
6 however, and we will endeavour to do much better in the future.
7 JUDGE LIU: Co-counsel is a very experienced person in the
8 jurisprudence of this Tribunal. I believe that in the future he will
9 remind you about that.
10 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I can indicate he has a very heavy
11 right foot and has been doing his best. It's not his fault, Your Honour;
12 it's mine.
13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
14 Any redirect examination?
15 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honours. Just a few clarifications,
16 if I may, Witness.
17 Re-examined by Ms. Chana:
18 Q. During the cross-examination, counsel asked you a question and to
19 which your response was that you had met Halilovic in 1997 at a cafe; is
20 that correct?
21 A. Yes, that's the restaurant I worked for, and he was almost a
22 daily guest in that restaurant.
23 Q. And you also said that - and I quote here - that "Nothing would
24 come out of that." And this was in relation to any investigations in
25 respect of Grabovica. I would like you to clarify. What was the nature
1 of this conversation and why -- and what did you mean for him to
2 understand when he said those words?
3 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry to say, but in seeking clarification, I
4 think that question itself needs clarification. My learned friend is
5 entitled to ask if she wants to was there anything more to the
6 conversation or was anything more said. But if you analyse the question
7 asked there, it's got about five possible directions, and it far from
8 clarifying, it, in my respectful submission, confuses. Now, I don't
9 object to the witness being asked if he wants to, if he could remember
10 anything further of the conversation that could be relevant, and my friend
11 could legitimately ask it as arising out of cross-examination. That
12 question there is apt to mislead, in my submission. So I object to it.
13 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the witness answered in this
14 way, so Ms. Chana is entitled to make some clarifications on that issue,
15 and that's just what we want to hear.
16 You may proceed.
17 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Q. In fact, Witness, let's go back to that conversation. Can you
19 tell us what you recall of that conversation between you and Sefer
21 A. When he came to the restaurant and sat down at the table, I would
22 ask him about Grabovica, whether anything would come out of that, and then
23 he said, "No, nothing will come out of that. This is forgotten, as it
24 had -- it had -- had nothing happened."
25 Q. What did you mean when you said "whether anything would come out
1 of that"?
2 A. Well, what I meant was whether there -- there was an
3 investigation being taken with regard to Grabovica. Because rumours
4 started and newspapers started writing about this, and there were stories.
5 The town was rife with stories about it.
6 Q. Did he at that conversation tell you that he had in fact asked
7 for an investigation in 1995, as it was put to you during
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, it -- it wasn't put to this
10 witness at all that Sefer Halilovic told him any such thing.
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. That's out of the scope.
12 MS. CHANA: No, Your Honour. I'm perhaps connecting two issues.
13 Perhaps I'll take it one step at a time. It will become clear.
14 Q. During cross-examination, counsel asked you whether you knew that
15 Sefer Halilovic had asked for an investigation in 1995 in the papers. Is
16 that correct?
17 A. I never knew of that, and I never heard that anybody had asked
18 for such an investigation, and especially not Sefer Halilovic.
19 Q. And when you were having this conversation in 1997 in the cafe,
20 and you were saying "anything will come out of that," [sic] were you at
21 that point ever asked -- told by Halilovic that he had in fact asked in
22 1995 for some investigations to be done into the matter?
23 A. Never. He never said that.
24 Q. What else did he say, if anything, in that conversation?
25 A. Nothing.
1 Q. Now, Witness, the other thing that you were asked about in
2 cross-examination was about the murders of Pero Maric and his wife, and it
3 is true that the first time you spoke about these murders was when you
4 came to the proofing. Can you please now look into your own mind and tell
5 the Court why is it that you came up with the Pero Maric murders and the
6 fact that you were an eyewitness at the proofing session.
7 A. Because I just felt the need to say that. For so many years that
8 I knew it and the crime that had happened and nobody ever trying to
9 elucidate those crimes, and all those who were there carry that memory
10 in -- in them, and some -- some are more interested than others in knowing
11 what -- what would happen.
12 Q. What were your feelings about it, the murders?
13 A. I don't know. I -- I found it rather hard, all these civilians
14 who were there, they were with us. They treated us as their children.
15 They were with us all day. They welcomed us. They were not at all mean
16 to us. And I -- I felt sorry for these people. And I carried them all
17 this time on my mind, and I just couldn't -- could no longer bear with
18 that. I felt that had to share that with somebody, somebody who would
19 guarantee me that they would understand what had happened and that -- that
20 they would sort of give me some guarantee of safety when I told them that
21 this had happened.
22 Q. You also stated to learned Defence counsel during his
23 cross-examination that you did not go to the police, and I am not exactly
24 quoting here. It's just a general purport of what was said. And I'm sure
25 counsel will get onto his feet if it's not true -- that you didn't go to
1 the police because essentially there was a cover-up. You used the
2 word "cover-up." Could you please clarify to this Court, what do you mean
3 by "a cover-up"?
4 A. Yes. Yes. The state authorities covered everything up. People
5 who were at the top did not want the whole thing to be clarified. They
6 just wanted these perpetrators. They needed them. And as long as they
7 needed them, they covered the whole thing up.
8 The same went for Mr. Sefer Halilovic. For as long as they
9 needed him, he was there. When they no longer needed him, they got rid of
11 Q. So is that the reason you didn't go to the police, or was there
12 any other reason?
13 A. It would have been pointless for anybody to go to the police. I
14 couldn't go to the police and report this crime in Grabovica because when
15 I return home this was already something that anybody in my neighbourhood
16 knew. My mother, for example, knew that this had happened. It had
17 already been in the media. This genocide had already been reported. So
18 even before I came home, actions could have been taken. My mother, for
19 example, she knew, although she didn't have telephone, she didn't have
20 many contacts with others. But this was brought by the media. Somebody
21 who knew what had happened spread the word across the media.
22 Q. So all this time you did not say anything about this, because you
23 have given several statements and I won't go into them, but they've been
24 outlined by the learned Defence counsel as to the number of times you gave
25 statements -- that you did not bring this issue up.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, with respect, that's an objectionable
2 question. That's not really what the witness has said. The witness has
3 said that he -- those statements were either beaten out of him or bashed
4 or that he didn't make them, in the case of cantonal court one.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, let me hear what the witness says this time.
6 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. If the question could just be asked in a
7 non-leading way, it's relevant and the materials are admissible.
8 MS. CHANA:
9 Q. Yes, Witness.
10 A. I'm afraid I didn't understand your question. Can you repeat it.
11 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... you have talked about the
12 incidents in Grabovica at various times, from 1993 to now. This is not
13 the first time you are ever talking about what happened in Grabovica. Is
14 that not correct? But you have never mentioned the Maric murders.
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I'm sorry to object, and it seems to be
16 taking the witness's part here. I'm not sure if that really was his
18 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe this question has been asked and
20 MS. CHANA: Yes. Your Honour, I was going on from what he had
21 previously said, that this is the first time he mentioned it, about the
22 Pero Maric murders. He couldn't go to the police. And I was trying to
23 invite him for further clarifications in that respect. I'm not allowed to
24 lead the witness, Your Honour, so my hands are tied.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well --
1 MS. CHANA: I'll move on, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please move on.
3 MS. CHANA:
4 Q. The other thing you -- you said to the Defence counsel during his
5 cross-examination, that all the soldiers were aware of the murders. Can
6 you clarify for us please. What do you mean by that, that all the
7 soldiers were aware? How do you know this?
8 A. All the soldiers were aware of the murders. They were all there.
9 They were listening to what was going on, and they all commented upon that
10 on their return to Sarajevo. Everybody knew exactly what had happened.
11 The only thing is that they do not all remember the same thing and their
12 versions differ somewhat. However, all the soldiers knew what had
13 happened, irrespective of the fact who the perpetrators were. They were
14 aware of the crime that had been committed in Grabovica, yes.
15 Q. But the soldiers were talking amongst themselves, you said.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, I'm not sure that that arose
17 out of -- out of cross-examination. This seems to be a new line of -- of
19 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, it's at line 18:11:17:29 from the
20 transcript, where this very question was raised by Defence counsel. I am
21 very painfully aware that I must only ask questions which arose out of
22 cross-examination. I've taken the trouble to even put the transcript line
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed.
25 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. So the soldiers were talking amongst each other about these
2 murders in Grabovica.
3 A. Yes. Yes, they -- they did. And some even took pride at having
4 seen what had happened, because some of them sought revenge for family
5 members that they had lost, their mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters.
6 And yes, soldiers did talk about it.
7 Q. Were these conversations or this -- any of the commanders ever
8 present when this was happening?
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, once again -- I mean, this is clearly
10 material which if it was relevant to the case should have been led in
11 evidence in chief. Now, it's never, never been put or cross-examined on
12 that there was such a discussion in the presence of commanders, so that I
13 object to this question.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes. That's a little bit, you know, over-extended.
15 MS. CHANA: Your Honours.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
17 MS. CHANA: I will not persist. But it is there. It was in the
18 context of the Celo, the commander.
19 JUDGE LIU: But just move on.
20 MS. CHANA: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Do you know a man called Zigi [phoen]?
22 A. No, I don't know Zigi but I know Dzigi.
23 Q. Dzigi. And you were asked by counsel was he at the -- was he
24 there at the time of the Maric murders?
25 A. I met this person in Grabovica. They were Commander Divjak's
1 men. And the only person I knew was Nihad Vlahovljak and Hajret. These
2 were the only people I knew. And this person, Dzigi, I met only recently.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness.
4 Now, I want to take you to the part when you were talking about
5 Celo bringing the youngsters and the line-up in relation do that -- to
6 that. And the question was put to you by learned Defence counsel that
7 Celo made a bona fide effort to find the killers. That was a question put
8 to you and you responded.
9 Now, what I would like to ask you is: Other than the killers
10 pertaining to these two youngsters, did he make any other inquiries about
11 any other killings?
12 A. When this happened, these children came and he only inquired
13 about the murders of the family of these two children, the father, the
14 mother, and the little sister who were there.
15 Q. So it was not a general inquiry about the criminals.
16 A. No, not then. He lined up all of us, and he asked the children
17 to see if they could identify the murderers of -- of their parents.
18 Q. Okay. The next -- the next point I want to ask you about is when
19 your brigade was asked to go to Herzegovina. And you had said in response
20 to counsel's question that "Celo had no connection with us in
21 Herzegovina." That was your answer.
22 A. That's correct. He did not have any command responsibility. We
23 were placed under the command responsibility of Zulfikar Alispago, also
24 known as Zuka. He was our commander there.
25 Q. And what -- what percentage would you say of the 9th Brigade was
1 sent to this operation in Herzegovina?
2 A. Do you want me to give you a -- a certain number?
3 Q. Well, if you give me the number of the -- the numbers of the
4 brigade and how many went, the number of soldiers in the brigade.
5 A. Our brigade had about 5.000 troops, 5.000 fighters, including the
6 logistics, the command, and everything else. And around 50 to 60 of us
7 from the entire brigade went to Herzegovina.
8 Q. So that would make I want a very small percentage. I'm not a
9 mathematician and I'm sure you're not either, but it would be fair to say
10 it's a very small percentage?
11 A. Yes, it's about 1 per cent, 1.5 per cent.
12 Q. What was the rest of the brigade doing who didn't go to
14 A. The rest remained in the town. They had their area of
15 responsibility. I don't know how big that area was. In any case, they
16 were manning positions and they were there in case of an attack. They
17 remained defending the town.
18 Q. Can you tell me, if you know, Witness, that -- after the
19 operation - I mean, after the 10th and when you came back to Sarajevo,
20 wherever you went - do you know yourself any soldier that was missing, not
21 in combat but from the situation in Grabovica?
22 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, that should really will clarified,
23 if it's a reference to the killings or is it a reference to the line-up
24 that took place subsequently.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
1 MS. CHANA: I'll clarify that.
2 Q. Now I'm away from the line-up. I'm just generally saying that
3 you -- you said that there were a number of units in Grabovica when you
4 were there. Now, the question is this: Are you aware of anyone who went
5 missing in Grabovica yourself? Are you aware of any soldier, I mean.
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. I now want to take you to the time Zuka comes to pick up
8 these bodies. That was your evidence. Did you personally meet Zuka when
9 he came?
10 A. He parked his jeep in front of that house, and after him there
11 were two lorries onto which the bodies were loaded, and there were two
12 soldiers on each of the checkpoints that I had marked a while ago. They
13 were involved in all that.
14 Q. But did you meet him? Did you talk to him?
15 A. Zuka didn't talk to anybody. I know Zuka. I know Zuka well. He
16 came with his soldiers. He placed two at each of the checkpoints. And
17 the rest that had come in the lorries, they loaded the bodies onto those
18 lorries and they drove off. I don't know in which direction.
19 Q. Yes. Because, Witness, it was put to you by the counsel for the
20 Defence that -- whether Zuka asked you any questions, and now you've
21 responded that he did not speak to anyone and you did not speak to him
22 either. Is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Did you see him speaking to anyone else?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Now to another point, Witness - and this will be my last point -
2 you also indicated to the Defence -- it was a lengthy cross-examination
3 about the whereabouts of Celo. It's in relation to that aspect of -- of
4 the cross-examination. Would it have been possible for Celo to have come
5 and gone from the village without your knowledge?
6 A. No. This would have not been possible. Somebody would have
7 learnt of that. On that day when he brought the children and he -- when
8 he lined us up and saved those children from certain death, this is the
9 person who saved these children. I can say it here and I can say it and
10 repeat again before as many people as -- as you wish. This -- he was the
11 only person who saved these children.
12 Q. All right, Witness, but I am not discussing about whether Celo
13 saved the children or not. What I want to know is: You said somebody
14 would have learnt about that. I'm asking about you yourself, wherever you
15 were. Would it have been possible for Celo to have come and gone without
16 you personally knowing about it?
17 A. Whenever Celo came, wherever we were, he would greet all the
18 soldiers. He did not act as some big commander. We were all soldiers.
19 And at -- on that day, I'm sure that he would have done the same if he had
20 been there. I cannot deny that he was or that he wasn't. I can only tell
21 you when I saw him, when he was there.
22 Q. Thank you very much, Witness.
23 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, that is my re-examination.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you, Ms. Chana.
25 Judge El Mahdi.
1 Questioned by the Court:
2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 [Interpretation] Witness, this is a clarification I wish to have
4 on a -- in the transcript yesterday, counsel for Defence asked you some
5 questions concerning Mr. Delalic and his presence at Grabovica. Inter
6 alia he asked you the following question. I quote what you say in
7 English: [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... "for a short
8 period of time did he come actually and join you in the village of
10 [Interpretation] And you answered, I quote you also in English.
11 [In English] [Previous translation continues] ... "with the children.
12 That was on the 9th at about 3.00 in the afternoon." End of quote.
13 [Interpretation] A bit further, another question was asked from
14 you: [In English]: "Did he ever take up a position in the white house
15 that you accommodated yourself in?"
16 [Interpretation] And you answered, I quote you: [In English]
17 [Previous translation continues] ... "when we went into action, I don't
18 know whether he spent that night there between the 9th and the 10th when
19 he went into action." End of quotation.
20 [Interpretation] My question is the following: Does your answer
21 really reflect what you remember about this event? Is it exactly what you
23 A. Yes, but I believe that the date is wrong. The children were
24 brought on the 10th, not on the 9th. Ramiz brought them on the 10th and
25 he stayed behind us in Grabovica. We went into our mission and he stayed
1 in Grabovica together with some other men. I don't know who they were.
2 And the rest of us went into our mission. I don't know if he slept there
3 or not. When we returned, he waited for us in Jablanica. We got onto the
4 lorries and went to Sarajevo.
5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Now you say that he came on the
6 10th with the children, on the 10th, not on the 9th, on the one hand;
7 also, that he didn't spend the night from the 9th to the 10th.
8 A. [No interpretation]
9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Therefore, he spent the night
10 from the 10th to the 11th.
11 A. He stayed there on the 10th, yes.
12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Good. And is this a slip of the
13 tongue or is it a problem with your memory?
14 A. Yes, there may be a mistake in the -- in the date, a lapse in the
15 date. I knew it was on the 10th, not on the 9th.
16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any questions out of Judge's question?
18 MS. CHANA: No.
19 JUDGE LIU: I see none.
20 At this stage, are there any documents to tender?
21 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, the answer to that is that there may
22 be. We would like to make a submission about it. It doesn't seem
23 necessary to retain the witness nor to deal with the matter now. I would
24 think it will take more than ten minutes to raise the matters I want to
1 But briefly they concern the effect of tendering statements. I
2 bear in mind what Your Honour has already said about that, but there are
3 certain matters I want to rely on arising out of those statements and I
4 have a submission to make. What I thought the best way to deal with it,
5 and it would be oppressive for the witness to be kept overnight, is to
6 reserve the theoretical possibility of a videolink should there be a need
7 to formally put documents. I can indicate there's certainly no more
8 substantive cross-examination at all. But it's just a matter of whether
9 these documents -- and I'm referring to statements here which we have from
10 the Prosecutor -- whether or not those should be formally tendered and
11 received into evidence. I don't want to simply say that they're not to be
12 done now and lose my chance to do so later.
13 If the Prosecution is content for this matter to be argued at a
14 later time, I'm very content to do so and not retain the witness here.
15 But that is a matter that I want to cover at some stage because I do have
16 documents currently I wish to tender.
17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Maybe we could find some other
18 time to discuss this issue.
19 Yes, Ms. Chana.
20 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. I have indicated already to the
21 Defence that we will be objecting to this, and since the witness is here
22 be but this possibility of the videolink is a new -- a new one on me. And
23 I would like to immediately answer to the extent that the witness has been
24 here, counsel has had ample opportunity and unhindered by Your Honours'
25 patience and the witness, and I think anything which needs to be raised
1 should be done before the witness goes back.
2 MR. MORRISSEY: I can indicate this in order to put it on the
3 map. I seek to tender the -- all of the statements of this witness, and
4 they can -- that can be debated at a later time. But I now seek while the
5 witness is here to put that ...
6 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think we need some time to debate on that
7 issue but not with the witness present, because those documents have been
8 extensively used and shown to this witness already.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, I entirely agree with what
10 Your Honour says. There are some matters of formality that arise as to
11 the use that can properly be made about those statements. I've got
12 submissions to be made about it. It's really a question for the -- I've
13 indicated my position. Now, it's a question of whether the witness is
14 permitted to go. In my submission, he should be permitted to go now. He's
15 had a long day and has been here for quite a length of time. But if
16 that's an obstacle to me putting the argument about tendering those
17 documents, then I indicate I have got an argument to put about it. If the
18 Prosecutor wants to maintain their position, well, that's their --
19 that's -- it's for them. But I have an argument to put about. I'm happy
20 to put it now. I'm happy to do it tomorrow morning. It can be put in
21 three weeks' time if that's what the Court wants as well.
22 And that's why I raise, Your Honour, the issue of -- rather as we
23 did with the witness Gusic -- the theoretical possibility that should
24 there be some formal failing of -- failing to put a document - and I'm
25 talk about the statements here, of course - to the witness, then that that
1 could be accomplished in short by videolink without any histrionic
2 cross-examination at a later time. But if my friend says that it all has
3 to be done right now and if the Court be inclined to agree, well, then we
4 can proceed now or we can proceed tomorrow morning. And the witness can
5 remain. It's -- but I think it would be better to deal with it in the
6 witness's absence, but -- and using the device that I've mentioned.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I don't think that -- first, I don't think we
8 need the witness here to solve this problem.
9 Secondly, we don't see there's any advantage to have the
10 videolink, you know, to connect with this witness because all those
11 statements have been used very extensively during the proceedings.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes.
13 JUDGE LIU: And we have the answers of this witness in the
14 transcript. There it is.
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Well, Your Honour, I just make it clear that
16 as indicated I'm proposing to rely on a number of matters arising out of
17 those statements. And one of them is the -- the resemblance between the
18 accounts given by this witness in -- in and around 1998 and the accounts
19 given by his -- the other two witnesses at around the same time.
20 Now, if the Prosecution wants to raise an objection at a later
21 stage that these documents are not themselves in evidence, then I want
22 them tendered because I want them to be in evidence to point to this very
23 fact that we get this movement, almost like synchronised swimming at the
24 Olympics, and I want to be able to point to that by pointing to evidence.
25 If I can do it by reference to the material that's already before
1 the Court, I don't need to tender it. But the Prosecution may say that
2 those documents had to be tendered in order for me to make that argument.
3 Now, they're not -- I understand that -- what Your Honour has indicated up
4 to now is against that position, but I don't think the Prosecutor agrees
5 with it. And that's why I'm not happily just conceding that it should
6 happen, because I want to be in a position to rely on those matters when I
7 come to make my arguments. And that's why I'm agonising now and raising
8 the matter now rather than having to bring the witness back later.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think, you know, the position of the Trial
10 Chamber is very clear: Generally speaking as a normal practice we do not
11 admit the previous statements into the evidence unless we have been
12 persuaded by profound reasons there, we could reconsider our positions.
13 But today it is not a good time to do that because it's already 2.00. We
14 have been eating the time of our interpreters. They are very patient to
15 allow us to sit 15 minutes more.
16 So we will decide to send this witness back and we will discuss
17 this matter at a later stage.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: As the Court pleases.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
20 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to
21 give your evidence. When the usher pulls down the blinds, she will take
22 you out of this room. We wish you a pleasant journey back home.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, the last word is that how about tomorrow's
1 MR. WEINER: We have two witnesses scheduled for tomorrow. If
2 one is ill or -- or there is a problem, we'll just go with the other
3 witness. But ...
4 JUDGE LIU: I hope you could inform the Defence team as early as
5 possible on whether that witness could be testifying tomorrow or not.
6 MR. WEINER: At the break, I suppose with the Victim and Witness
7 Unit who was going over there to meet with him, and as soon as I receive
8 some information, I'll let them know. Thank you.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
10 And the hearing for today is adjourned.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.02 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 23rd day of
13 February, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.