1 Wednesday, 9 March 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Madam Court Deputy.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
9 Mr. Morrissey, you have something to say?
10 MR. MORRISSEY: Good morning, Your Honour.
11 Your Honour, I asked that the Court come in before the witness
12 because of the matters that were raised yesterday.
16 MR. RE: We're -- I don't think we're in private session. Is my
17 learned friend going --
18 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes. We'll go to the private session, please.
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 2-5 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We are now in the open session.
17 Well, there's two things I would like to mention at this stage.
18 The first one is that concerning with Friday's schedule, since the Judges
19 will have an extraordinary Plenary in the afternoon, so we could only sit
20 in the morning, so we'll start from 9.00 until 12.30 with 30 minutes'
21 break in between.
22 The next issue is about the response from the Prosecution to the
23 Defence request for tender some documents through the last week's witness.
24 I understand it will take some time for the Prosecution team to study all
25 those documents tendered by the Defence, but I hope the Prosecution's team
1 could submit their views on those documents as early as possible, since we
2 have to make a decision, and there's still a possibility for the
3 application for certification from the Defence team. Yes.
4 I think that -- could we have the witness, please.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to continue?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
11 Yes, Mr. Morrissey.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Could we briefly move to the private session,
13 Your Honour, because of a matter I wish to raise.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
15 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 JUDGE LIU: Now we are in open session.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey: [Continued]
13 Q. Now, I'm just indicate, Witness F, what remains for you today by
14 way of the topics to question you about. I have some more questions and a
15 couple of documents to show you concerning the events of July of 1993, and
16 then I'm going to move to the Trebevic -- Trebevic operation, focussing
17 chiefly on October of 1993 but with a couple of questions about September.
18 And I'm going to show you some documents from that era as well. Some of
19 those documents you may recall; some of them you may not. And you must
20 feel free to comment on that as I put them to you one after another. But
21 you may take as much time to look at those documents as you need.
22 Now, my first question concerns the -- the incidents of the 1st
23 and the 2nd -- sorry, of the 2nd and the 3rd of July of 1993, which you've
24 already given evidence about. I wish to ask you a couple of questions
25 about that. First of all, do you recall the name of the man who had the
1 nickname Talijan, the proper name of that man?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was his proper name?
4 A. I didn't understand your question.
5 Q. What was Talijan's real name?
6 A. Mustafa Hajrulahovic.
7 Q. At the time of the incident on the 2nd and 3rd of July, was he
8 the commander of the 1st Corps of the Bosnian army?
9 A. I think he was, but I'm not sure.
10 Q. Okay. And what I want to do now is to show you a document
11 purporting to come from him. There are some attached documents to it as
12 well. But this document is a document dated 1st of July, 1993. So it's a
13 document coming from just before the incident. And I'll have some
14 questions for you about it.
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown -- it's 65 ter
16 number D146. Its ERN number will be DD000643, and it's to be MFI255.
17 Q. This document will appear on the screen in just a moment in the
18 Bosnian format, but what it appears to be is a -- an official note from
19 Mustafa Hajrulahovic, Talijan, to the SVK command -- commander, in fact.
20 And what I want to ask you about is, first of all, to look at the document
21 and ask you some questions about the document. And then if you don't know
22 the document, I'll ask you some questions more generally about it.
23 Do you have that document in front of you yet?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Very well. Thanks. Now, first of all, does that appear to be
1 a -- a document signed and stamped under the name of Mustafa Hajrulahovic,
2 Talijan, and dated the 1st of July, 1993?
3 A. No. This was not signed by Mustafa Hajrulahovic, known as
5 Q. Who is -- whose is -- are you able to say whose the signature is
6 under that name on the Bosnian original?
7 A. This document was issued by the security service of the 1st
8 Corps, and it is signed by Chief Sacir Arnautovic, who was then the
9 official chief. But this is not his signature, as far as I can see.
10 Q. Are you looking at a document --
11 A. I am.
12 Q. I just -- there may be some confusion between the English one and
13 the Bosnian original that you have. Just could you just describe -- the
14 document that you're looking at, is that a document dated the 1st of July
15 with a document number above it 02/1109-1?
16 A. No, that's not it.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Very well. Your Honours, we may have a technical
18 hitch here. Just --
19 [Defence counsel confer]
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, Mr. Prosecutor, and -- and Witness
21 F, the document has a number of parts to it, and it may be now that the
22 witness is being shown one part in Bosnian.
23 Could the witness please be shown page 2 of the Bosnian version
24 but keep with page 1 of the -- of the English version.
25 Q. While that's being brought up, I indicate I'm really showing you
1 this document to see if you can comment on the situation that existed
2 immediately before that incident of the 2nd of July.
3 A. I can see the document. This document was signed by Mustafa
4 Hajrulahovic, and this document is in fact an attachment to the document
5 we saw just a minute ago which arrived from the security services. I
6 haven't read this through all the way, but it's probably the opinion of
7 the commander of the 1st Corps, Mustafa Hajrulahovic, about the attitude
8 of his subordinates towards him and towards their tasks. I was not
9 involved in this, so I am not familiar with it.
10 Q. Well, that -- that's my next question. Is this -- first of all,
11 is that a document which you yourself have actually seen before today?
12 A. No, I have never seen this document before.
13 Q. Very well. Bearing in mind -- all right. I'm going to ask you
14 to look at the -- at the second document now.
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown the first page
16 of the Bosnian version, but it will be the third page of the English
18 Q. Do you have that document?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. Is that the document you -- you looked at before to which
21 the Talijan statement is annexed?
22 A. I haven't seen this document before either. These are documents
23 that circulated within the security services, but I myself have not seen
24 them before.
25 Q. You indicated yesterday that sometimes you would attend the
1 meetings of the security services and that sometimes you would see that
2 senior people had documents with them. Now, let me ask you: In broad
3 terms, were you familiar with the -- the problems that the commander of
4 the 1st Corps thought that he had with the 10th Brigade?
5 A. As I said yesterday, I attended a meeting of the security
6 services within the security service administration, but I did not go to
7 any external meetings. The meetings I attended were morning briefings.
8 And in such situations, the superior commander -- my superior commander,
9 that is, in most cases simply summarised the problems and told us about
10 the problems generally. He didn't go into details. The exception was
11 when there was an issue that somebody was working with. Then they would
12 be shown the documents to see so that they could continue being involved
13 in this situation and monitoring it.
14 As for the other part of your question, in principle I was aware
15 that Musan Topalovic was behaving in an opportunistic manner in connection
16 with orders issued by the commander of the 1st Corps, so I was informed of
17 this situation in a general way.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I offer that document for tender,
20 noting that this witness has indicated very clearly that he himself didn't
21 see it.
22 Perhaps before I offer it, I just want to ask one more question.
23 Q. On the face of it and having regard only to formal matters, does
24 it appear to be a -- a normal communication within the SVB, or a regular
25 form of communication within the SVB?
1 A. Is that a question to me?
2 Q. Yes, it is.
3 A. This manner of communication was usual in the security service.
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. Apart from this, there was certain information passed on, but
6 this was simply a document with an attachment. Official notes from
7 subordinate units could reach us at the level of the security service
8 administration only if the matter was very important and if the
9 information had been verified so that we could see the authentic document.
10 Q. Yes. Thank you for that clarification.
11 JUDGE LIU: And is this one document or two documents?
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, it's one document. It's a note --
13 the official document, I think, is the -- the document which has just been
14 shown -- that part of the document which has just been shown, the note
15 under the name of Sacir Arnautovic, which is currently in its English
16 version on the screen. Attached to that are a number of other documents,
17 so -- some of which I'm not going to cross-examine about because
18 they're -- they form part of the document, so I'm not going to edit them
19 out, but they -- I don't need this witness's evidence about them. But it
20 consists of that document that's in -- the official note, which you have
21 in front of you, plus the attachments which were attached to it. And it
22 should form just one document, because that's the way we got it.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Any objections?
24 MR. RE: No, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE LIU: So it's admitted into the evidence.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE LIU: With the number of 255?
3 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.
6 Q. Next I want to move to what was happening during the events of
7 the 2nd and 3rd of -- of July.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: And I would ask that the witness please be shown
9 65 ter number D322, that is, DD -- ERN number DD001526 -- sorry, in
10 Bosnian -- okay. I'm told DD001513.
11 THE REGISTRAR: What is the ERN number?
12 MR. MORRISSEY: DD --
13 THE REGISTRAR: The 65 ter number, I'm sorry.
14 MR. MORRISSEY: DD322, and it's to be MFI256.
15 Q. Now, what I'm going to show you now is a document that purports
16 to be a telephone transcript dated the 2nd of July, 1993 between Rasim
17 Delic and Sefer Halilovic. I would ask you just, please, when that
18 appears in front of you to take your time to read through it, and then I'm
19 going to ask you some questions about it.
20 [Defence counsel confer]
21 MR. MORRISSEY: Could I just ask that the Bosnian version be
22 moved over to page 2, because on the transcript provided to us there's an
23 irrelevant conversation on the first page. On the English version, it
24 just takes up one paragraph, but in the Bosnian version it takes up the
25 first page.
1 Q. So I'm sorry, Witness F, you might have been shown a -- a
2 different -- a conversation.
3 When you've reached the end of your page and you need to turn
4 over the page, you indicate, please, and -- and that will be done.
5 A. We can go on. The next page, please.
6 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the page please be turned over for the
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. In due course, could the English version
10 also be turned over so that the Tribunal and Prosecutor can follow.
11 MR. RE: Could it perhaps be released so that we could look at it
12 ourselves. At the moment, we don't have access to the document except
13 as -- through the registry's control.
14 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. That -- sorry, I presumed that had been
15 done. I'm sorry.
16 I'm told it has been released, Your Honours.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next page, please.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown the following
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next page is not coming up.
21 MR. MORRISSEY:
22 Q. Witness F, could I just inquire: Do you have that page now?
23 A. Yes.
24 The next page, please.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I'll have to be guided by
1 Your Honours as to when you wish to turn over the page for your own
2 purposes. I've got a hard copy myself here that I'm working with.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next page, please.
4 The next page, please.
5 The next one.
6 The next one.
7 The next.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: While the witness is reading, can I indicate to
9 the Court -- the Tribunal that the -- the Bosnian version is handwritten
10 and it's approximately 13 pages of text.
11 Can I also indicate for timing purposes that there's one other
12 document that I'll show him that's much -- much shorter than that, but we
13 won't be spending the day putting the witness through this exercise apart
14 from on this occasion and one other.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Go on, please.
16 The next page, please.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown the next page
18 of the document.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The next page, please.
20 The next one.
21 I've read it.
22 MR. MORRISSEY:
23 Q. Thank you. Now, Witness F, this is a document provided to the
24 Defence by the Prosecutor at an earlier stage in these proceedings. And
25 my first question to you is: Have you ever seen this actual document
1 itself before today?
2 A. No, I have not seen it.
3 Q. Very well. And just to be very complete about it, did you ever
4 hear any tape recording containing this conversation?
5 A. No, I didn't.
6 Q. All right. On the face of the transcript, does it appear to be a
7 document which originated in the Ministry of the Interior?
8 A. I think that I saw that it was from the State Security Service.
9 Yes, that's right.
10 Q. All right. Well, since you didn't see it or hear it, I'm going
11 to ask you a second round of questions. Did you -- did you know that
12 there were operative measures, including telephone tapping, being
13 undertaken in respect of Sefer Halilovic by State Security Services?
14 A. No, I've never heard that.
15 Q. And at the meetings that you've mentioned, the internal meetings
16 of the SVB that you attended, was it ever disclosed in those meetings that
17 Sefer Halilovic was or might be under such telephone-tapping measures?
18 A. First of all, a correction. I never took part in any SDB
20 Q. I'm sorry, I --
21 A. I only attended briefings --
22 Q. Yes. Just stop there. I'm sorry. That must have been a -- a
23 mistake of communication. I -- it's not being suggested that you did. I
24 meant the SVB meetings that you attended. And now, sorry, please proceed
25 with your answer.
1 A. SVB, yes, that's fine. And I also attended daily morning
2 meetings and briefings. Nobody ever mentioned that Sefer Halilovic was
3 under any measures of the security services.
4 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, in those circumstances, I do not seek to
5 tender this -- this document.
6 Q. I want to ask you some questions though concerning the events at
7 that time. Was it within your -- I understand you -- you knew what you
8 were told at the meetings. And what I want to ask you is: Was it within
9 your knowledge that Senad Pecar -- Senad Pecar was in fact a person
10 involved in the bad activities of the 10th Brigade?
11 A. I did not know Senad Pecar at all. I don't even know him
12 nowadays. His name was never mentioned in my presence. All I know is
13 that Musan Topalovic was removed from the commanding post of that brigade,
14 and after that happened, I think that the other person was appointed
15 either Chief of Staff or -- appointed to one of the senior commanding
16 posts. However, I repeat that I have never seen him and I do not know him
17 at all.
18 Q. I'm sorry, I'm just confused a little bit by your answer. When
19 you say Musan Topalovic was removed, are you now referring to the time of
20 the Operation Trebevic?
21 A. Yes. Yes.
22 Q. When you say "removed," can you just explain what you mean
23 by "removed." What happened to Musan Topalovic?
24 A. Well, he was replaced. That means that he was no longer brigade
25 commander. There probably was a decision of the commander or the
1 president. I don't know exactly the process based on which the brigade
2 commanders were replaced. As far as I know, Caco was killed in the
3 Trebevic operation. I don't know the precise circumstances, because I was
4 not kept abreast.
5 Q. Okay. Very well. I have one other transcript that's been
6 provided, but I don't want to show you that unless -- well, I'll ask you
7 some questions first of all.
8 Did you see any -- apart from the one that you've just indicated,
9 did you see any other transcripts purporting to be records of telephone
10 intercepts relevant to the events of the 2nd of July at any time?
11 A. No, I didn't see. The rule is in the security service that the
12 person who is not involved in certain topics does not receive firsthand
13 information about that topic; therefore, I didn't see that information.
14 Q. Well, in that event, I'm not going to seek to show you any other
16 Very well. You mentioned that -- just excuse me a moment.
17 Sorry. Pardon me one moment.
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 MR. MORRISSEY:
20 Q. Thanks. I just have a very short number of questions now about
21 the time before Neretva 93 and the events in Herzegovina. You've given
22 evidence already about the 9th and 10th Brigades being outside the line of
23 control and command. I just want to show you an order that was issued and
24 ask -- ask for you to comment on it. It may be that you've seen it; it
25 may be you didn't. But I'll ask for your comment in either event.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown Defence 65 ter
2 number 218. And it ERN number is DD001105, and it will be MFI257.
3 Q. Witness F, this is an order which I'm just going to ask you to
4 look at. It appears to be an order from Commander Karavelic of the 1st
5 Corps dated the 6th of September, 1993 and directed to a 1st Corps forward
6 command post and also to the 10th Brigade, Musan Topalovic, and Senad
7 Pecar. Do you have that order in front of you?
8 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Very well. Now, would you just have a look at that order,
10 please, and I'll ask you some formal questions about it first and then
11 I'll ask you for -- whether you saw it and what your opinion about it is.
12 Now first of all, does that appear to be an order in a regular form from
13 the commander of the 1st Corps, Vehbija Karic, directed to the forward
14 command post of the -- of the 1st Corps and also to the commander of the
15 10th Mountain Brigade, Musan Topalovic and Senad Pecar?
16 A. I have to tell you right away that the documents of the command
17 of the 1st Corps reached me very seldom, basically never, especially not
18 outside of the security services structure. I mostly had documents of
19 operative nature in my hands within the scope of tasks of the security
21 As for this document, yes, it does have some shortcomings, but it
22 was possible -- it is possible that this document was issued during the
24 Q. Okay. Witness F, you've been very clear about the circumstances
25 in which you would normally see documents and get information, but the
1 reason I ask you about this one is because on any view your service had an
2 interest in the movements of the 10th Brigade in the weeks leading up to
3 this period of time and, obviously, afterwards as well.
4 So I want to ask you: Did you become aware yourself of this
5 particular order; namely, an order by Vahid Karavelic to a unit of the
6 10th Brigade to move back from Igman, where it was no longer needed, back
7 into the city? Were you aware of such an order made by Karavelic that had
8 consequences for where particular units of the 10th Brigade might be found
9 early in September 1993?
10 A. Let me tell you: I have never seen this document and I was not
11 aware of this.
12 Q. All right. Can you comment on whether or not it was discussed at
13 your SVB meetings that a unit of the 10th Brigade was being moved by Vahid
14 Karavelic at around this time from Igman back to Sarajevo?
15 A. I can't remember that event. The war was going on. There were
16 numerous fightings going on in that area. And in addition to that, I in
17 fact never followed combat activities, and I stated so yesterday.
18 Q. Yes, I understand that.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: Very well. Your Honours, I offer that document
20 for tender. I note what the -- what the witness has said about it, that
21 he didn't see it and he doesn't know about it. And it may be appropriate
22 to tender it through Mr. Karavelic when he comes as well. But because
23 I've asked the questions, I will offer it at this stage.
24 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Re?
25 MR. RE: Well, yes. The witness, as Mr. Morrissey has rightly
1 pointed out, doesn't know anything about the document nor its contents and
2 Mr. Karavelic is coming. That would be the appropriate time to tender it.
3 Although, as it has been commented upon, it would be appropriate to mark
4 it for identification at this point.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. This document is not admitted into evidence
6 through this witness without prejudice for the future tender.
7 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. I agree with
8 that -- that course. Thank you.
9 Q. Now, I wish to move now to events at a later stage in the
10 investigation. If you'd just excuse me a moment. There are now a series
11 of documents that I am going to have shown to you for comment by you.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown -- it's Defence
13 65 ter number 484. Its ERN number is DD002216. And it is to be MFI258.
14 Q. Now, this is a document which appears to emanate from the 1st
15 Corps security service but which may have passed through your service, and
16 I'm asking you to -- to look at it quickly for your comment. It appears
17 to contain or it says it contains operative work: "Through operative
18 work, we've obtained the following information."
19 Would you just mind looking through it firstly and seeing whether
20 you can indicate -- have you ever seen it before, this document?
21 Could I just indicate: You feel free to read the whole thing if
22 you need to. But the parts that interest me and that I want to question
23 you about are the first paragraph where it says: "On the 2nd of October,
24 an assault was formed as part of the 10th Brigade under the direct command
25 of Musan Topalovic, Caco. The president of the state indirectly asked for
1 this unit to be formed by asking Caco to provide in-depth security for his
2 visit to Mostar." So I'll ask you about that.
3 And then -- and then the tenth paragraph, although they're not
4 numbered, it's the tenth one, where it says: "It is let known among the
5 soldiers that this unit is under the direct supervision of the president
6 of the republic and that he fully supports them in whatever they do, that
7 this unit has his full confidence, as well as that the unit is under Alija
8 Izetbegovic's personal command."
9 Now, can I ask you, first of all: Have you seen this particular
10 document before?
11 A. I have never seen this document before.
12 Q. Very well. Does it appear to be the sort of document that one
13 would expect in the normal course of events to pass through your service
14 and be in the hands of your superiors for the purposes of the morning
15 meetings that were held in your service?
16 MR. RE: There's an objection to this line of questioning. My
17 learned friend is showing the witness a number of documents which he
18 clearly hasn't seen before and can't comment upon. And I object to
19 further questioning on this line unless my friend can demonstrate some
20 relevance to the proceedings here. He's entitled to tender the document
21 at some point, but not necessarily through this witness.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that there more just asked a very
23 general question on that, which is allowed. We'll see, you know, how far
24 he could go.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Yes, well, Your Honours, I'm trying to be
1 fairly careful about that.
2 Q. So as far as this document goes, I understand you say you haven't
3 seen it personally. On the face of it, is it the sort of document that in
4 the normal course of events should pass through the hands of your service
5 and your superiors?
6 A. This document must have passed through the hands of my superiors.
7 It's addressed to the military security service administration, and you
8 can see that the chief of the administration initialled it and acted upon
9 it. However, I did not hold it in my hands and I have not seen it before.
10 Q. Okay. Well, at -- at the meetings which you've referred to, the
11 SVB meetings, did you become advised of the -- the matters that I've
12 highlighted for you there, in particular that Musan Topalovic's unit had
13 formed a new assault unit and that this unit was rumoured to be - and I'm
14 only using the word "rumoured" of course because that's what in the
15 document - is this unit was rumoured to be under the direct supervision of
16 the president of the republic?
17 A. According to its establishment structure, the 10th Mountain
18 Brigade, as far as I know and to the best of my knowledge, had, I think,
19 three battalions which were combat battalions holding the lines in the
20 regular way. Apart from that, there was an assault company and its
21 strength was probably about 100 men, according to our estimation, because
22 we were not familiar with the composition of that company or its size and
23 its manpower level. It could not have been under any kind of command,
24 direct or otherwise, of the president of the republic. I don't think this
25 can hold water.
1 Q. Well, I'm certainly not asking you to say that it's proper and
2 according to the rules. What I'm really asking you about is: Did you
3 become aware through those meetings that this rumour or this story was
4 circulating as operative information?
5 A. No. No, I wasn't aware of that. Nobody ever mentioned anything
6 like that. And the name of the president in connection with this assault
7 company -- well, it was never linked to it, as far as I know.
8 Q. Okay. Well, I'd ask that you have a chance to look at another
9 document here.
10 MR. MORRISSEY: And could the witness please be shown document --
11 Defence 65 ter number D486.
12 MR. RE: Perhaps that last document could be marked for
13 identification, given that the -- I anticipate my learned friend won't try
14 to tender it through this document [sic] as he's moved on. Perhaps it
15 could be marked as the witness has commented on its contents.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: One moment, please. Your Honours, I'm proposing
17 to come back to that document after this one. So I wonder if we could
18 just hold that in abeyance for a moment. It has, in fact, in any event
19 been ascribed a number, which is 258. But I was very likely to come back
20 to it after this particular document.
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
22 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Your Honours, with respect to this document that we're about to
24 show the witness, we should move into the private session.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
1 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.11 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 10.42 a.m.
22 JUDGE LIU: Do we have the document?
23 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, could we go back to the private
24 session, please.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
1 [Private session]
11 Pages 28-45 redacted. Private session.
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, now we are in the open session.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Could the witness please be shown document
1 D -- Defence 65 ter number D18, which is DD000058, and it's to be MFI260.
2 Q. This document that I'm about to show you, it will come on the
3 screen in just a moment. Now, this is an order signed and stamped by the
4 chief of the SVK, Sefer Halilovic. Do you see his signature and stamp at
5 the bottom of the -- of the document?
6 A. I do see it
7 Q. Thanks. Would you just look to the top left and notice that the
8 date of this document is 25 October 1993.
9 A. Yes, I do.
10 Q. Okay. And there's no doubt in the world that by the time of 25
11 October 1993 the planning for Operation Trebevic was well and truly in
12 process; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Very well. Now, I just want to take you through this document
15 here and confirm a couple of matters, bearing in mind the interest shown
16 by your service in Mr. Halilovic's opinions and expressions.
17 Do you see here where Mr. Halilovic says -- and I'll go to the
18 second -- go to the first paragraph -- "At our last joint meeting, it was
19 agreed that talks should be conducted with commanders of the 9th, 10th,
20 1st, and 2nd Mountain Brigades about setting aside some forces and sending
21 them to the front in Herzegovina. Talks were conducted with the
22 commanders of the 1st and 2nd Mountain Brigades and they are prepared to
23 set aside some forces, but they're concerned about a possible clash with
24 the 9th and the 10th Mountain Brigades, which left a bad impression on the
25 team that I'm [inaudible], and led us to conclude they that will be able
1 to set aside some forces if some forces are taken from the 9th and 10th
3 New paragraph: "Since despite our best efforts we were unable to
4 contact Musan Topalovic, also known as Caco, commander of the 10th
5 Mountain Brigade, and only briefly talked with the commander of the 9th
6 Mountain Brigade, with whom we did not manage to agree on anything, I
7 propose a meeting through the chain of command and control (since I do not
8 have the right to issue orders) of the commanders of the 1st, 2nd, 9th,
9 and 10th Mountain Brigades and the commander of the 2nd Independent
10 Battalion in one of your offices on 25 October 1993 at 1900 hours or some
11 other time that suits you better in order to agree on how to carry out the
12 upcoming task and where you could issue the necessary orders."
13 New paragraph: "We have unsuccessfully tried to organise such a
14 meeting three days in a row. But since we were unable to achieve
15 anything, we are forced to contact you in this way."
16 And then it indicates that it's forwarded to the commander of the
17 SVK, the commander of the 1st Corps, and to files.
18 Now, my first question is this: In the preparations for Trebevic
19 and in particular the very day before it happened, this document must have
20 passed through the hands of your service. Do you agree?
21 A. I can't be precise in my answer. The document is not addressed
22 at all or sent to the military security service administration. It could
23 have reached the chief of the administration, my superior, but it did not
24 reach me, so I can say nothing about it.
25 Q. Well, perhaps you can say something about it. And I'll -- I'll
1 ask you some further questions. I agree it's not addressed to your
2 service at all. It's addressed to Rasim Delic and Vahid Karavelic. Is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. But one person who was not included in the planning for
6 Operation Trebevic and in particular for the arrests was Sefer Halilovic;
7 is that correct?
8 A. I didn't understand your question.
9 Q. Halilovic was not one of the people planning his own arrest on
10 the 26th of October; do you agree with that?
11 A. Yes, I agree with that. I don't know that Halilovic was arrested
12 on the 26th of October.
13 Q. Well, I -- I accept your correction about that. But you
14 certainly agree that he was not involved in the planning of the arrest of
15 the -- those people who you processed from the 9th and 10th Brigades; is
16 that correct?
17 A. I'm not aware of that. I think he was not involved, but I don't
18 know to what extent he was aware of it. This was above my level.
19 Q. No, I understand. But the question is -- my questions go a bit
20 further than that. Were you aware at the time that the 10th Brigade --
21 sorry, were you aware at the time that Sefer Halilovic was being deceived
22 as part of the planning for Trebevic into thinking that there was a need
23 to go back to Herzegovina with units from the 1st, 2nd, 9th, and 10th
24 Brigades? Were you aware of that?
25 A. No, I wasn't aware of it at all and I don't know how he was
1 deceived. I don't understand it.
2 Q. Well, it's just that on the face of this document here it appears
3 that Halilovic is talking to Rasim Delic about an upcoming operation.
4 MR. RE: Well, I object.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Re.
6 MR. RE: There's an objection to this continuing line of question
7 on a document the witness hasn't seen before, doesn't know whether it went
8 to his service, and knows nothing about the contents.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I agree with Mr. Re.
10 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, I'll deal with the matter a
11 different way, but I offer this document for tender in any event as one
12 signed by Halilovic and it's not -- well, I agree that -- this witness,
13 I've got some more questions for, but I'm offering it for tender at this
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Re.
16 MR. RE: Subject to the Defence establishing its provenance, the
17 Prosecution doesn't object to it being tendered on that basis, that it is
18 a document purportedly signed by the accused.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour. We'll make that inquiry and
20 subject to that --
21 JUDGE LIU: You.
22 MR. MORRISSEY: -- of course, being satisfied, I offer it on that
24 Q. Thank you. I should ask you this question formally, although it
25 was implicit in your answer earlier: Have you ever seen this document
1 before today?
2 A. No, I have never seen this document before.
3 Q. Were you aware -- leaving aside this document itself, were you
4 aware --
5 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry. Just excuse me a moment.
6 [Trial Chamber and usher confer]
7 MR. MORRISSEY:
8 Q. Sorry. Were you aware of whether or not there was a plan or a
9 suggestion for an ongoing operation in Herzegovina at the time of the 25th
10 and 26th of October?
11 A. No, I was not aware of it. I knew about the earlier operation on
12 the territory of Herzegovina when the well-known crime was committed. I
13 didn't know about this operation. Our intentions were to carry out the
14 Trebevic operation. That's what we were focussing on in the security
15 service administration.
16 Q. It is the fact, isn't it, that Commander Delic had personal
17 control over Operation Trebevic; is that correct?
18 A. I think he was, yes.
19 Q. Very well.
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Now, I would seek -- very well. Well, I offer
21 that document for tender.
22 Can I indicate that the chain of custody or my instructions is
23 that this document was obtained from the archives of the Army of Bosnia in
24 Sarajevo by one of our investigators, Mr. Asim Dzambasovic. He's present
25 in court. He can be asked questions about that if needs be. But that's
1 the provenance of that document.
2 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?
3 MR. RE: No. No, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE LIU: Well, it's admitted into the evidence.
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 Q. Thank you. I just want to show you now another document. This
7 is Defence 65 ter number D27. It's DD002777 [Realtime transcript read in
8 error "DD00002777"] and will be MFI261.
9 Witness F, the -- the document that's going to come up now seems
10 to be a draft -- either a draft or an official version of the plan for
11 Trebevic. And I just want to show it to you and see whether you've seen
12 it before and whether it accurately captures what you understood to be the
13 purpose of the operation and the details of the plan.
14 MR. MORRISSEY: May I indicate for the Prosecutor's benefit and
15 also for the Court's that this is a document which has an annex attached
16 to it which is included. I wasn't going to take the witness to it, but
17 it's part of the document, so we -- it's -- it's included in it.
18 Q. Do you have that document on your screen as yet?
19 A. No.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Just give us a second.
21 MR. MORRISSEY: Could I indicate for the benefit of the witness
22 and the Court that there are three to four further documents to go, and
23 that will essentially complete the cross-examination.
24 MR. RE: I think there may have been too many digits read out by
25 my learned friend. There's four "0"s there.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: There should be only two. The number is
2 DD002777. Or "triple seven," as previously described.
3 [Defence counsel confer]
4 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay. Your Honours, my legal assistant has
5 identified a technical problem. It appears that the second page of the
6 Bosnian version has not been successfully scanned. In order to solve
7 it -- it's okay in English, but the witness needs to have it in the proper
9 In order for that to be rectified, he's going to go and photocopy
10 a hard copy and present that and we'll make good, of course, the
11 difficulty. But rather than delay, I can move to a different document
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
14 MR. MORRISSEY:
15 Q. Witness F, I apologise for that. We've just had a technical
16 problem about that document. I be ask you about that in a moment, but
17 I'll just take you to a different document in the meantime.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Now, Your Honours, we're going to see how we can
19 cope without Mr. Cengic's assistance.
20 Could the witness please be shown document -- it's Defence 65 ter
21 number D150. The number -- ERN number is DD000671. I think this is to be
23 Q. The document that we're going to attempt to bring up on the
24 screen now, Witness F, is a bulletin -- sorry, an SVB bulletin dated 19
25 September 1993. And I'm just going to ask you to look at that document.
1 Now, do you have that on the screen in front of you now?
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. All right. Now, is that in the regular form of a -- of a weekly
4 bulletin which was produced by your service as a regular and repetitive
5 part of its work in that time?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay. Could the witness please be shown the
8 following page.
9 Q. This document, as you're looking at it -- you feel free to read
10 whatever parts you want. I'm going to take you to the first paragraph and
11 the last -- and two of the last three paragraphs. But, of course, if you
12 need to familiarise yourself with the rest of it, do not hesitate to do
14 Now, do you have in front of you the -- the paragraph commencing
15 with the sentence: "Following the recent incident between members of the
16 2nd Brigade and the 10th Brigade, Musan Topalovic called Zakir Puskar and
17 Mujo Zulic and suggested they join him in his intention to form a new
18 Bosnian army, stating that he did not recognise the 1st Corps or any
19 authority in the city and suggesting they take power jointly." Do you see
20 that passage?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. And do you see the part that comes after that, that: "Caco would
23 engage Serbian and Croatian soldiers and former JNA people's army officers
24 in the new army solely in work platoons and they would not be armed. Only
25 Muslims would have the right to bear arms"? Do you see that -- that
2 A. Yes, I do.
3 Q. And then it goes on to say that Puskar and Zulic rejected his
4 proposals, after which Caco threatened to attack their staffs. Because of
5 this -- and it goes on to describe other matters.
6 And then the last sentence: "Members of the 1st and 2nd Brigade
7 commands believe the attack on them and probably the attempt to take power
8 in the city will occur following the return to Sarajevo of Ramiz Delalic,
9 also known as Celo, because he shares Topalovic's opinions."
10 Now, my first question is: Was that operative information that
11 passed through your organisation now while you were working there on the
12 19th of September, 1993?
13 A. Yes, it's quite logical that it did, because the service compiled
14 this bulletin. I was a member of the service. So obviously yes, it was.
15 Q. It's a little bit hard to ask you to remember every single rumour
16 that came through your service, I appreciate, but do you recall this one,
17 in your own memory, and leaving aside this document?
18 A. I don't recall the document. I think in the left bottom corner I
19 saw a number, 180 or something --
20 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...
21 A. -- which means there were many such bulletins and I cannot
22 recall. The service compiled these, and they were also used to inform
23 people externally, people outside the service, that is, the army
24 commander, probably the MUP, and the political structures. This
25 information contained in the bulletins had to be checked. I'm deeply
1 convinced of that. And they had to be of a high degree of reliability. I
2 cannot recall these details. I didn't have these bulletins in my hands.
3 I was informed of their contents at the morning briefings.
4 Q. Yes, I understand. But this document -- I understand you say you
5 can't recall this specific one, and you're quite right. It's -- it's got
6 number 188 on it, so they were very frequent.
7 But I understand you say you can't recall this particular
8 document, but nevertheless this information was obviously available to you
9 in the course of your work at the time; is that true?
10 A. Not necessarily -- I wasn't necessarily informed of all the
11 details. It would depend on the assessment of the chief of the security
12 service administration. It was his practice if he assessed that he had to
13 inform the people from the administration or the lower units with the
14 contents of a bulletin, he would write it down on the document and initial
15 it. He would say: "Inform everyone," or "inform the following," and then
16 a list of names. And I did not see this.
17 Q. Yes. Okay. Very well. But just to get you to comment
18 nevertheless on the rumours which were -- which were circulating at the
19 time. The rumour that Caco would engage Serbian Croatian soldiers and
20 former JNA officers in the work platoons, do you recall that particular
21 rumour circulating?
22 Perhaps I should ask you this: Were you a JNA officer yourself?
23 A. No. No, I was not a JNA officer.
24 Q. Was Sefer Halilovic a JNA officer or had he been a JNA officer?
25 A. I met Sefer Halilovic on the 8th of April, 1992, I think, which
1 is when he passed over into our army. I heard that he left the JNA very
2 early on, and I think he had been a major in the JNA and that he joined
3 the patriotic forces for the defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina very early on
4 and for this reason he was very popular among the citizens, and I
5 personally liked him very much.
6 Q. I just have a couple of other questions. This document here has
7 got a mark on it at -- on the front page "Strictly confidential." And I
8 wanted to ask you whether that means it was -- it was a report that was
9 denied to you or whether it was a report that could be accessed by you, if
10 you felt the need to look at it.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness be shown the first page of the
12 document, please.
13 A. Yes, I can see it.
14 Q. Okay. You see the -- the "Strictly confidential" stamp. Who
15 does that mean it's confidential from? Was it confidential from you, for
16 example, or was it confidential from people outside of the SVB
18 A. You can't say it was confidential from me personally. As I have
19 just said, the chief of the security service administration evaluated at
20 what level and what persons had to be informed of the contents of the
21 bulletin. For example, it's possible in a certain situation for
22 information I had verified to be included in the bulletin, and the
23 information gathered from various operations officers and people from the
24 service, these were compiled and collated and put in the bulletin. They
25 were not to be copied or made public or leave the service except for
1 certain people who regularly received the bulletin.
2 Q. Very well. Well, just so that we're quite clear about this. You
3 don't have any recollection of seeing this particular document yourself;
4 is that accurate?
5 A. No. No, I have never seen it before.
6 Q. Nevertheless, it appears to you to be a document in -- in a very
7 common format which circulated to some extent within your service, the
8 service of the SVB; is that correct?
9 A. Yes, that's correct, as far as I can recall.
10 Q. Yes. Very well. Well, then I'll ask you comments on it strictly
11 in a professional capacity and bearing in mind that you do not -- that you
12 didn't see it or you don't recall seeing it.
13 Would you look, please, to the -- the last three paragraphs. I
14 won't ask you to go through these in detail, but I just want you to note
15 the details of bad behaviour by various units. If you need the page to be
16 turned over, please indicate, because the court staff will help you.
17 And I can indicate in advance what my question is going to be, so
18 while you're reading it you can think of it, that -- the question is: Is
19 it the case that units other than the 9th and 10th Brigades did from time
20 to time have individuals who committed wrongful acts?
21 A. I can't remember, but it's quite possible. There was a large
22 number of men. There were many brigades. However, such information did
23 not come to me because, as I said both yesterday and today, I had no
24 connections with the combat activities of various brigades. I was
25 involved with the work of the staff of the main command.
1 Q. Yes.
2 MR. MORRISSEY: Very well. I offer that document for tender.
3 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?
4 MR. RE: No, not on the basis that it's a document emanating from
5 the service and it's a standard document.
6 I have one concern about a portion of the document, and that is
7 can it be -- can the second page not be broadcast publicly but just be
8 shown to the Trial Chamber, the third paragraph or the third bullet point,
9 which starts: "We are in possession of indicators that" a named person,
10 et cetera, "is collaborating with the aggressor."
11 Having never seen this document before, obviously it's just come
12 up at the moment, I -- the Prosecution has concerned that if that
13 particular piece of information were publicly released or broadcast or not
14 redacted from the exhibit, it could well endanger the person named there.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I'd have no objection to that entire
17 paragraph being redacted, if that -- frankly, the Prosecution have a -- a
18 better perspective on security matters at large than -- than I do. And if
19 my friend identifies a possible problem, that paragraph is immaterial to
20 what this witness is being asked.
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. This document is admitted into
22 the evidence with the redaction agreed by both parties.
23 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
24 Q. Yes. Sorry, I now believe that we're in a position to show you
25 the plan for Trebevic.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown MFI262 --
2 sorry, 261. 261, I apologise.
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, with respect to this document, this
5 is the one we tried to show before. What we'll do is circulate copies of
6 the -- the Bosnian original but because of the difficulties that were
7 encountered last week that Your Honour may recall, where we gave the
8 Prosecutor an original document and then later on it turned out that we
9 hadn't given them the -- the new translation, we'll also provide the
10 English translation as well in hard copy.
11 Q. What's going to be provided now is -- is a document provided to
12 the Defence which seems to be a plan for Trebevic. And we'd just ask you
13 to look at it and see what -- see whether you've seen it before and what
14 your comment about it is.
15 A. Yes. May I see page 2 of the previous document, because I didn't
16 have it on my screen and you said it would be there.
17 Q. Yes. Well, we're going to give you both page 1 and page 2 in
19 A. I've already given my reply, but I haven't seen what the document
20 is about.
21 Q. They're just going to bring it now.
22 Yes. Sorry, now can I just ask: Do you have that paper document
23 in front of you now?
24 A. I've received a new document, not the second page of the previous
1 MR. MORRISSEY: I just want to clarify this, Your Honour. Would
2 you excuse me, please.
3 [Defence counsel confer]
4 MR. MORRISSEY:
5 Q. Let me just confirm what you have. Do you have in front of you a
6 document dated 25th of October, 1993?
7 A. Yes, I do. This is the order.
8 Q. Yes. Okay. And is it numbered 1/297-492?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. And now --
11 MR. RE: Could I just indicate --
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Re.
13 MR. RE: Before my friend goes on, if it speeds proceedings up,
14 we don't object to the tendering of this document, whether or not the
15 witness has seen it before.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm grateful for that, but I'll still take the
17 witness through.
18 Q. Thanks. Okay. Now, is this the order from Rasim Delic to form
19 the relevant groups to conduct Operation Trebevic?
20 A. This is a copy of the document. However, I can see that this is
21 his order, yes.
22 Q. Yes. You see that there are two teams -- or sorry, two groups
23 being referred to, one being, if you like, the command group and the other
24 being a group consisting of members to direct the operation. So far as
25 you performed functions in Trebevic, under which of those two categories
1 did you fall into in. Were you in the Alispahic-Karavelic-Jasarevic
2 group, or were you in the command group with Ismet Dahic and others?
3 A. You mean Ismet Dahic?
4 Q. Yes, that's what I -- that's what I meant to say. Sorry.
5 A. At the time, I was a member of the military security
6 administration and it was logical for me to be in a group which was
7 represented by Jusuf Jasarevic, who was in the command group.
8 Q. Yes. The reason I asked you is because Vahid Bogunic appears in
9 the other group and he was also a member of your command.
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. Okay. Very well.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I -- Your Honours, I tender that order.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Since there's no objections from the
14 Prosecution, it's admitted into the evidence.
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay.
16 Q. Just a final reference to that document. This is a document --
17 although this document is dated the 25th of October, the planning had been
18 going on for quite some time before that; is that correct?
19 A. Most likely, yes. We started planning the action somewhat
20 earlier, because it wasn't possible to do it in just one day, so we
21 started with preparations earlier.
22 Q. Did you have a -- can you provide the Tribunal with a date on
23 which this preparation started, or is that not possible to do?
24 A. It is not possible.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. I can't remember.
2 Q. Okay. Now, the final two documents I have to ask you about
3 relate to 1995 and 1996 -- oh, sorry, no, there's one other one before
4 that. One short one before that.
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown Defence 65 ter
6 number D115. This is DD000473 and this will be MFI263.
7 Q. This document, you may have seen before; you may not have seen.
8 In any event, I'll ask you to comment upon it. But it's the order of the
9 Presidency formally removing Sefer Halilovic as Chief of Staff of the
10 army. So I'm going to show it to you and then -- and then ask you to
11 comment on it. It's dated 1st of November, 1993.
12 JUDGE LIU: 262 or 263?
13 MR. MORRISSEY: 263, Your Honour. Did say -- pardon me. I
14 apologise if I said --
15 JUDGE LIU: No. I just want to make sure. Yes, thank you.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: No, it is 263.
17 Q. Very well. Do you have in front of you an order from Alija
18 Izetbegovic relieving Sefer Halilovic from the duty of the Chief of the
19 Main Staff, such order to take effect immediately and dated 1st of
20 November, 1993?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay. Your Honours, I offer that document for
24 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Mr. Re?
25 MR. RE: No, there's no objection. I think that's actually on
1 the Prosecution 65 ter list as well. I'm just getting the case manager to
3 JUDGE LIU: Is it admitted into evidence before?
4 MR. RE: I don't know. I'm just -- I'm just checking. It's
5 happened very quickly.
6 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I don't believe it has been
7 admitted in. It's likely to be somewhere on the Prosecution's 65 ter
8 list, I'd agree. I think it hasn't been; hence, I'm putting it through
9 this witness.
10 JUDGE LIU: So this document is admitted into the evidence. And
11 once it is admitted into the evidence, I believe there's no clear
12 distinction between which document it is. I mean, whether it has been
13 tendered by the Prosecution or by the Defence. There's no difference.
14 MR. MORRISSEY: No, Your Honours, there is a -- a habit of
15 labeling the documents with a "P" or a "D" before them, but that has no
16 effect on the way in which the Tribunal uses the document in due course.
17 Yes, okay. Thank you.
18 Q. Now, the final two questions relate to events much later, in 1995
19 and 1996, and there are document which I want to show you in regard to
20 that and ask for your comment on them and ask whether you've seen them as
22 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown -- it's Defence
23 65 ter number D31, three-one, and its ERN number is DD002788, and it will
24 be MFI 264.
25 Q. The document I'm about to show you is an official note of the
1 SVB, and it's dated 30th of November, 1995. Do you have that document in
2 front of you as yet?
3 A. Yes, I do.
4 Q. Very well. I would like you to be shown the final page of that
5 document. I'm going to give you a chance to look through it in just a
6 moment, but I'd like you to be -- be shown the final page of that document
7 for a moment.
8 Do you have that, the final page, including the final
9 signature -- sorry, including the -- a final section entitled "Measures
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, it's -- it's been indicated to me
12 that this should be done in private session, so I'd seek that we go into
13 the private session for this.
14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.
15 [Private session]
11 Page 66 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Sorry. Pardon me. I was just waiting.
8 Q. Very well. Do you see here that generally speaking the document
9 constitutes an analysis by Damir Dzanko of Sefer Halilovic's newspaper
10 article and then after that the person you've indicated has proposed
11 certain measures, and the particular -- well, sorry, yes, first of all:
12 Do you understand that to be the effect of this document, that it's a
13 document drawn up by Dzanko and then proposals have been placed at the end
14 of that document by your colleague?
15 MR. RE: Well, the Prosecution objects to questioning in relation
16 to this document. The date of the document appears to be the 30th of
17 November, 1995, which is some two years after the indictment period. The
18 Prosecution fails to see the -- the relevance of this document or -- or
19 questions in relation to what the security service may have done in
20 relation to Mr. Halilovic's article some years later. Mr. Halilovic
21 writing the article may be relevant to the proceedings, but not the
22 response of the security service.
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, since that article is relevant to this case and
24 this document is closely related to this article, so the question is
25 allowed in this aspect.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Very well. Could you explain to the Tribunal, please, what
3 is "KOZ," which is referred to in the third and fourth points of the
4 measures proposed. What is "KOZ"?
5 A. "KOZ" is on abbreviation for "counter-intelligence protection,"
6 so it means in this case the counter-intelligence protection of the
8 Q. Is there any rule that you're aware of that permits KOZ measures
9 to include making media attacks on Sefer Halilovic by third persons on the
10 basis of other matters or other topics altogether in order to protect the
11 commander of the Bosnian army? In other words, do you know of a rule that
12 allows that sort of behaviour?
13 A. I have to attempt to explain this. The counter-intelligence
14 protection as a measure of the security service is of defensive nature.
15 Its aim is to protect, to defend. At that time, and speaking about Sefer
16 Halilovic, in light of this official note, let me tell you that Sefer
17 Halilovic was not a member of the army at the time, as far as I know.
18 Therefore, there was no need to undertake any measures with respect to
19 him, based on the rules and all legislation and regulations, he was
20 outside of the competence of the military security service.
21 Q. So what was the basis for recommending there should be a media
22 attack mounted on Sefer Halilovic by a third person in relation to a third
24 A. I was not aware of that; therefore, I cannot give you any
1 Q. But you can give a professional comment on whether it's legal to
2 do that or not. And what I'm asking you to do is identify the legal basis
3 for conducting this particular activity.
4 A. In my previous answer, I attempted to explain. The
5 counter-intelligence protection is a measure used by the military security
6 service, was used in accordance with our rules and methodology. The
7 commander of the army had a right -- or rather, the service was duty-bound
8 to protect the commander of the army by using counter-intelligence
9 protection to protect him in his place of residence, place of work, and
10 any of -- any movements that he had. I have never heard of any
11 counter-intelligence protection in relation to this person; therefore, I
12 cannot comment.
13 Q. At the time when -- sorry, I'll take a step back from that. What
14 you say is that you had -- you personally had no involvement in any such
15 measures against Sefer Halilovic; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. And was it ever discussed at an official meeting of your
18 organisation that Sefer Halilovic should be the subject of a smear
19 campaign in the press?
20 A. No, never. And I can assure you of that.
21 Q. Because it's quite plain, isn't it, that from the army
22 commander's point of view Halilovic's allegations were that Commander
23 Delic was aware of all of the -- sorry, I'm just going to put a part of
24 this to you. It was part of -- of Halilovic's allegation here, as you
25 understand it, or as you understood it at the time, I should say, that
1 Halilovic was alleging that Delic should have taken steps; is that
3 A. I did not understand your question.
4 Q. Sorry, well, I'll put the question in a different way and I'll
5 read a quote from the thing. Damir Dzanko summarises Sefer's position as
6 being: "Sefer further states that the option of covering up the
7 responsibility of those actually responsible for the dishonourable acts in
8 the village of Grabovica prevailed, which means -- which meant that he had
9 to be indirectly accused of carrying out those acts. Sefer says that he
10 is certain that the competent organs know who is responsible for what and
11 their names but some invisible hand wants the culprits never to be
13 Now, I'm not asking you about the truth or otherwise of these
14 matters. I understand that's not within your area. But you understand
15 that was the allegation that Damir Dzanko was concerned about in this
16 letter; in other words, the allegation made by Halilovic that there were
17 some people who didn't want the truth to come out about Grabovica.
18 A. Once again, I do not understand the question. What do you want
19 to ask me?
20 Q. All right. I'll put the question another way. It's the -- look
21 at the last paragraph and I'll ask you about that, the last paragraph
22 being Damir Dzanko's last paragraph: "I believe that that open letter by
23 Sefer Halilovic represents an attack on the Chief of the General Staff of
24 the Bosnian army and that by choosing this manner of addressing the public
25 Halilovic attempts to prevent any accusations of war crimes that have been
1 committed. It's to be expected that Halilovic will use this interview for
2 his propaganda activities."
3 Do you see that paragraph?
4 A. Yes, I do see that.
5 Q. Okay. Now, I understand your position is you did not become
6 involved in -- in this matter in 1995 and 1996; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Very well. But it's also obvious to you, isn't it, that this
9 document represents an attempt -- or sorry, represents a measure designed
10 to protect Rasim Delic from the allegations of Sefer Halilovic; is that
12 A. The way I see it, this is just an opinion of one agent, who made
13 a conclusion based on the information stated above. Therefore, this is
14 his opinion and it is irrelevant.
15 Q. Yes. Okay. Thank you.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: Would you just excuse me for one moment, please,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: I've nearly finished. And there's one matter
20 that -- I want to take one second, if I could, and I --
21 JUDGE LIU: But we have to stop here to take a break. So we'll
22 have a break and we'll resume at ten minutes to 1.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.24 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.51 p.m.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, as usual, having a break shortens
2 the questions that are coming afterwards. And I've now finished the
3 questioning and there is just one other matter that I need to raise.
4 The witness was inadvertently misled by the Defence earlier on
5 because he had a document that was a faulty document put in his hands, and
6 in fact the document -- the witness himself identified this when he said
7 that he'd like to see the second page, which he hadn't seen. At the time,
8 I thought he was talking about something else.
9 The document in question, it's MFI262. Now, what I had in
10 mind -- I mentioned this to the learned Prosecutor on the break. And I
11 had in mind to briefly show the witness the full document. The actual
12 page that was missing is not part of the Defence case, and I take it not
13 part of the Prosecution case either, and it also contains that name that
14 my learned friend wanted to have suppressed. So it's technically in a
15 sense irrelevant. But because the witness raised it, it should in
16 fairness to him -- that he should have the chance to look at that.
17 So I just ask to show --
18 JUDGE LIU: Do you have a hard copy?
19 MR. MORRISSEY: I do.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you could have that hard copy shown to this
22 MR. MORRISSEY: I just indicate that because of printing reasons,
23 it's -- it's double-sided. And that's the reason why the scanning error
24 took place, in fact, that it was a double-sided matter.
25 So we apologise to the witness, frankly, because he's the one who
1 noticed the problem. But if we could just show that to him.
2 Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness F. You've heard what I've just said there.
4 You made an inquiry about a document. It may not be relevant, but in any
5 event, we're going to show you and allow you to notice it and make any
6 comment, if you do have a comment to make about it.
7 THE REGISTRAR: What document is this?
8 MR. MORRISSEY: This is MFI262.
9 And could I just indicate that the English-language version is
10 complete, but the witness was denied the full document. We will, of
11 course, provide the fully scanned version as soon as today's session is
13 Q. Witness F, did you have an opportunity to briefly read that page?
14 A. I am just reading it now, and I can see that the contents of this
15 document are new to me. I asked to see it earlier because I didn't see it
16 on the screen. That was the only reason why I asked for it.
17 Q. No, I understand that. And I'm grateful to you for taking the
18 time to look at it. But the fact is it doesn't change your memory about
19 the rest of the document; is that true?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Very well.
22 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, those are my questions. And thank you for
23 your patience in answering them.
24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
25 Any redirect?
1 MR. RE: There will be on one issue. But I think there's two
2 documents outstanding. I think there's one document outstanding from the
3 cross-examination. It was D2216, which I don't think got an MFI number at
4 the time. Was it 258?
5 I'm not sure it's been admitted into evidence. I'm not sure
6 whether my learned friend was proposing to tender it. I thought he was at
7 the time but if he's not.
8 JUDGE LIU: No, he was intending and we are waiting for your
9 response. Do you agree or not?
10 MR. RE: No, I don't.
11 The -- my response is: If my learned friend can demonstrate the
12 relevance of that particular document to the proceedings, the Prosecution
13 will withdraw its objection.
14 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Morrissey.
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, pardon me, Your Honour. Sorry. I -- I
16 just had become used to the practice of doing this at the end, but I'm
17 happy to do it now, if needs be.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: With respect to this -- this particular document,
20 this is a document which this witness did not himself see on his account.
21 Your Honours will recall that he was cross-examined about the substance
22 of -- sorry, about the information that was contained in it and concerning
23 a link between the president of the state and the assault unit of the 10th
24 Brigade, Musan Topalovic. It was cross-examined upon. It may be relevant
25 to the way in which you deal with -- sorry, perhaps the answers he gave in
1 respect to the later document may reflect upon his knowledge of these
2 matters. It's a document that circulated, that was in the SVB sector, if
3 you like. If it came from the -- from the MUP or the SVB, I wouldn't be
4 seeking to tender it because it's outside of his organisation. This --
5 although he -- he clearly has said and has steadfastly said it's not his
6 document, he didn't see it; nevertheless, it's from -- it's from within
7 his organisation. He can offer comments upon it. And although, like --
8 quite frankly, like a lot of the evidence given in good faith, no doubt,
9 given here it's relatively remote sort of evidence. Nevertheless, it may
10 have some evidence to the case. It could bear upon questions of effective
11 control and the like.
12 So, you know, I frankly concede it has a level of remoteness from
13 the case, Your Honour. I have to say that. But because of its potential
14 relation with the other document, which was clearly directly relevant and
15 was his document, I offer to tender it on that basis. And that's why.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, we see this document is not relevant to
17 this witness; although, this document has gone through his unit or
18 organisation. So this document is not admitted into the evidence at this
19 stage, but in the future the party could resubmit it for the admission.
20 It is so decided.
21 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Thank you. As the Court pleases.
22 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Re.
23 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour. There's just one area I wish to
24 ask the witness about.
25 Re-examined by Mr. Re:
1 Q. That is, in cross-examination, my colleague Mr. Morrissey asked
2 you about whether you had heard any -- if you had any information
3 connecting members of the Presidency, specifically Alija Izetbegovic, with
4 the 10th -- Caco and the 10th Brigade in October 1993. And then he showed
5 you a document, which is Exhibit D259. And that particular document --
6 MR. RE: I apologise, I -- we have -- let me just explain the real
7 problem here because -- we can only put one document up at a time. We --
8 sometimes they come up and down. We have one up and the other one goes,
9 and I've just -- looking at the other one -- so I've just got a quote from
10 it so I've just got to raise the document up again. I apologise far.
11 JUDGE LIU: You don't have a hard copy at your hands?
12 MR. RE: Well, no, because we only see them when they flash
13 across the screen in front of us for the first time during
14 cross-examination. It's extraordinarily difficult to -- to deal with
15 multiple documents on a screen which are being tendered.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
17 MR. RE: Working out where they are.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Could the Defence furnish a copy.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: I think this is the document. That's -- yes.
20 Your Honours, could I just point out that this was admitted under
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
23 MR. RE: Thank you, Mr. Morrissey, for that.
24 Q. Rather than go into private session, I'd just ask you, Witness F:
25 I take it you recall the document which -- which you signed the 21st of
1 October, 1993 and which you referred to obtaining "uncorroborated
2 information that the president, Alija Izetbegovic, Caco, and some other
3 persons from the Union of Veterans attended a meeting a few days ago t
4 source did not know where the meeting was held. The source alleges that,
5 among other things, the meeting discussed the need to form a Green Berets
6 independent brigade which would be under Alija Izetbegovic's direct
7 jurisdiction. At that meeting Izetbegovic" - a huge question mark in the
8 margins - "organised" -- sorry, "appointed Caco commander of the brigade."
9 And on the side is handwritten: "This should be checked."
10 Do you recall the questions Mr. Morrissey put to you about that
11 particular document and your -- your response a little bit earlier when
12 you said you weren't aware of information connecting the president with
13 the 10th at that time?
14 MR. RE: I'm, of course, paraphrasing.
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, it's -- my friend's paraphrasing actually
16 is a bit ambiguous because I think the witness's comments were a little --
17 I don't want to make a speech about this. I think -- I think it would be
18 best not to paraphrase and perhaps put the direct issue that --
19 Your Honours, I'm being asked to slow down and I should probably slow down
20 and be quiet as well. But that was potentially ambiguous, so I'd ask that
21 perhaps the direct quote be put if my friend wants to re-examine on
22 something that has to be clarified.
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe you could ask this question one by one.
24 I also see it as a compound question.
25 MR. RE: Yes, I can do that. I've just got to find the exact --
1 the exact passage. It's at page 41.
2 Q. Mr. Morrissey questioned you about the -- the document, and a
3 previous answer you'd given to him about your awareness of the mentioning
4 of the name of the president this connection with the assault company.
5 And he said: "Now, do you stand by the answer?" And your answer
6 was: "Yes, I stand by that answer. I personally was never aware that
7 there was any connection between the name of the president and any of
8 those units. There is a difference in the date. The first date was the
9 9th of October and the date here is the 21st of October. That means the
10 events unfolded very quickly."
11 Now, I'm just asking you: Do you remember -- the first
12 question: Do you remember being asked those questions and your response?
13 A. Yes, I remember these questions. If this is the original
14 interpretation of my reply, then there's something wrong.
15 Q. Well --
16 A. At least, it isn't clear to me. Only the 1st of September is
17 mentioned and some other date, without any explanation as to what this
18 refers to. May I clarify this now?
19 Q. If I could perhaps assist you. The way it works is it's
20 translated into English and then it's been translated back another two
21 times, so it's quite possible that in the translating several times
22 backwards and forwards some of the meaning from your original answer may
23 have been lost, but that's not what I'm getting at. What I want to ask
24 you about is the difference between your -- if there is any difference
25 between your recollection when Mr. Morrissey first asked you about your
1 recollection of any connection or knowledge of any connection between
2 Caco, assault units, and the president and what you've written in this
3 document, where you've called it "uncorroborated information which should
4 be checked." I just want you to explain the difference there, if you
6 A. I only said that I didn't remember that the president had
7 anything to do in any way with a particular unit, that is, the 10th
8 Mountain Brigade or any other brigade. I am not aware that the assault
9 company or whatever its name was, was established at that time. As far as
10 I know, it was established much earlier and it was part of the 10th
11 Mountain Brigade. When these two things are connected in this note, what I
12 said was that the information was unverified, that these were rumours that
13 reached us in the course of our work, and that this was preliminary
14 information which had to be carefully checked in great detail if it was to
15 be considered reliable.
16 Q. The --
17 A. Excuse me. Besides this, I think that at that time an order may
18 already have been written on the replacement of Musan Topalovic about his
19 dismissal from the post of brigade commander. I don't know what the date
20 was, but when this official note was compiled, the planning of the
21 Trebevic action was already well underway and, of course, the president
22 knew of it because it was done with his approval. In principle, this
23 could not have been done without him.
24 Q. All right. The official note which you signed is dated the 21st
25 of October, 1993, and today is the 9th of March, 2005. When was the last
1 time you saw that document in which you refer to "uncorroborated
2 information" which needed to be checked about the Presidency between the
3 21st of October, 1993 and today?
4 A. Probably only when I wrote it. I never saw it again.
5 Q. What was the state of your memory about the contents of that
6 document when Mr. Morrissey asked you about the president, Izetbegovic,
7 and any connection with the 10th and the assault units before showing you
8 that document?
9 A. All I can say is, with respect to the president, to the best of
10 my knowledge he had nothing to do with these assault units. These units
11 were subordinated to their brigades and these brigades were subordinated
12 to the 1st Corps. It would not have been logical for the president to
13 communicate with these units directly.
14 Q. Well, what I'm getting at is the state of your memory as to the
15 contents of the documents. Now, Mr. Morrissey asked you about the
16 contents of the document before showing it to you. What was your -- what
17 was the state of your memory about the information in the document, that
18 is, about uncorroborated information that needed to be checked about --
19 concerning the president before -- when Mr. Morrissey asked you that,
20 before he showed you the document a little bit later?
21 MR. MORRISSEY: I object to that. That's not what happened. I
22 questioned him about the other document, the one which wasn't admitted
23 into evidence. And then when he gave those answers, I then -- and the
24 Court will easily remember this, because it was when the computer froze.
25 I then had the other document, which I then sought to show him straight
1 away. And then we had a break and we then went into that document.
2 What he was questioned about in substance before putting the
3 document was the material -- was the matters concerned with the 9th of
4 October, the earlier materials, if you like, and then that document was
5 put to him. But his answer was that he hasn't seen it. And Your Honours
6 have ruled on that document. I think my friend may be confused about that
7 course. But, in any event, the -- the -- the question is misleading, so I
8 object to it.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, I did not see any merits in your question,
10 Mr. Re, after all.
11 MR. RE: On the basis that I was confused as to which document
12 Mr. Morrissey had been asking the witness about, I accept that -- I'll
13 accept what Mr. Morrissey says. I'm not -- I'm not quibbling with that.
14 I have nothing further.
15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
16 At this stage, are there any documents to tender?
17 Mr. Re?
18 MR. RE: No, but could I just indicate that the document D263,
19 which was tendered earlier, which is the removal of Mr. Halilovic from his
20 position. And I said it was -- I think it was -- I thought it was a
21 Prosecution exhibit. It's actually an extract from Prosecution -- 65 ter
22 number 83. It's the third paragraph in that.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. And how about the document P216? Are you
24 going to tender it or not?
25 MR. RE: I thought it was tendered.
1 JUDGE LIU: No, I don't think so.
2 MR. RE: Was it MFI or P? I thought it was P. If I'm wrong --
3 the case manager tells me it's got a P number, not an MFI number.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, P16.
5 MR. RE: 216. My information is --
6 JUDGE LIU: 216. P216.
7 MR. RE: Yes, my information is that it is tendered because it
8 has a P number. If it had an MFI number, it hasn't been tendered. It's
10 THE REGISTRAR: I have it as an exhibit.
11 JUDGE LIU: So it's admitted already. Yes.
12 On the part of the Defence?
13 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honours. I'm sorry. I'm now lost in
14 the numbers, I'm sorry to say.
15 MFI -- would Your Honour just excuse me? I just want to seek an
16 explanation of something. I'm sorry.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please.
18 [Defence counsel confer]
19 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. There's MFI255, which I seek to tender.
20 That's the document dated 1st of July coming from the 1st Corps --
21 JUDGE LIU: I -- I think we have already made decisions on that.
22 MR. MORRISSEY: Oh, I'm sorry. Is that one ruled upon?
23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I just asked you whether you had other --
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, I'm sorry. My notation system. Through my
1 fault there. And I think MFI262 remains to be tendered.
2 JUDGE LIU: 262 is admitted into the evidence.
3 MR. MORRISSEY: I have no other documents.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
5 Well, Witness, thank you very much for coming to The Hague to
6 give your evidence. When Madam Usher pulls down the blinds, she will show
7 you out of the room. We wish you a pleasant journey back home.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, do we have the next witness? Mr. Re.
11 MR. RE: Yes, the next witness is Mustafa Kadic. No protective
12 measures have been sought nor ordered. My learned colleague Mr. Sachdeva
13 will take him in his evidence in chief.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
15 Mr. Sachdeva.
16 MR. SACHDEVA: May it please Your Honour.
17 JUDGE LIU: Are you going to introduce the next witness through
18 the Rule 89(F)?
19 MR. SACHDEVA: No, Your Honour. I'll be taking his evidence
21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
22 [The witness entered court]
23 JUDGE LIU: Good afternoon, witness.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
25 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
2 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
4 WITNESS: MUSTAFA KADIC
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Sachdeva, your witness, please.
7 Examined by Mr. Sachdeva:
8 Q. Sir, good afternoon.
9 A. Good afternoon.
10 Q. Could you state your name, your date of birth, and your place of
12 A. Mustafa Kadic. The 15th of September, 1957 in Ustibar [phoen].
13 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about your personal
15 MR. SACHDEVA: And I'll be leading the evidence from the witness,
16 with your leave, Your Honour.
17 Q. Were you a former soldier in the JNA?
18 A. Yes, I was in the JNA, 1978, when I did my military service.
19 Q. You served in the first aid unit; is that right?
20 A. Yes, that's right, in the medical corps.
21 Q. And in 1991, you completed professional -- further professional
22 qualifications in metalwork, is that right, in Sarajevo?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And before the beginning of the war, you lived in Sarajevo.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, in spring 1992, you joined the territorial army unit in
2 Alipasino Polje; is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And this unit was called the Stela Unit; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And after that, you were transferred to the Kosovo Hospital.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. That is where you presently work; is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, in the beginning of 1993, did you join the 2nd Independent
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Which unit or company of that battalion were you a member of?
14 A. This was the 2nd Independent Battalion, the 3rd Company.
15 Q. And who was the commander of the 3rd Company?
16 A. Senad Sakovic was the commander.
17 Q. Can you tell the Court who was the commander of the 2nd
18 Independent Battalion.
19 A. Adnan Solakovic.
20 Q. And within which corps was the 2nd Independent Battalion?
21 A. The 1st Corps.
22 Q. Who was the commander of the 1st Corps?
23 A. Karavelic.
24 Q. What was your role in the 3rd Company of the 2nd Independent
1 A. I was a private.
2 Q. And where mostly were you situated within that company? Where
3 did you actually do your activities?
4 A. I didn't understand. When we were --
5 Q. Well, were you based on the front lines? Sorry, my fault.
6 A. Yes, we were at the front lines.
7 Q. Now, I'm going to take you to September 1993. Were you deployed
8 anywhere outside of Sarajevo at that time?
9 A. In early September 1993, we were deployed in Herzegovina.
10 Q. Who deployed you there?
11 A. We were simply told to go there, you know. We didn't know who
12 deployed us.
13 Q. So who told you to go there?
14 A. It was the company commander, when he returned from a meeting
15 with the commander.
16 Q. When you say "company commander," you mean Senad Sakovic; is that
18 A. Yes. Yes.
19 Q. Do you recall what he actually said to you? Did he give you the
20 purpose of your deployment to Herzegovina?
21 A. He told us we were going to Herzegovina, that there was some
22 combat operations there, and nothing else.
23 Q. Did he tell you what kind of combat operations there would be
25 A. Not initially. Not when we were about to leave.
1 Q. Did you find out later what kind of combat operations they were
2 going to be?
3 A. Yes, later, when we were supposed to leave Grabovica, that's when
4 we were told we were to take some positions that were being held by the
6 Q. Well, I'll get to that later, sir, but can you tell us: When you
7 were told about your particular operations, did you know if it was part of
8 a larger military operation?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Very well. Who did you go with when you were deployed to
11 Herzegovina in early September 1993?
12 A. Am I supposed to tell you the names of the people I went with?
13 Q. If you can, yes, please. Well, firstly, were they part of your
15 A. Yes. There was Senad Sakovic, the company commander; Sahat
16 Sadik, Mustafa Karic, Zdenko Jelusic, Elmedin Spaho. Those are the names
17 I can remember right now.
18 Q. How did you go to Herzegovina?
19 A. From Sarajevo to Hrasnica, we went on foot. Then we got onto
20 trucks, and we were brought to Herzegovina by truck.
21 Q. How many trucks did you travel in?
22 A. Three trucks.
23 Q. Do you recall the date of your arrival in Grabovica, roughly?
24 A. Only that it was early September. I couldn't recall the exact
1 Q. When you arrived in Grabovica, do you -- can you recall roughly
2 the time period when you arrived?
3 A. A little after noon.
4 Q. I'm going to ask you about your arrival in Grabovica. When you
5 got there, did you see any other soldiers in the village?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Who did you see there?
8 A. At the beginning, there was no one in the village. But later on
9 we saw civilians. At the time of our arrival, we didn't observe anybody.
10 Q. When you say later on you saw civilian, could you please tell the
11 Court which ethnicity those civilians were.
12 A. Croats. They were Croats.
13 Q. Apart from the Croat civilians and -- and yourselves, did you see
14 anybody else in the village while you were there?
15 A. On the first day? Or during our stay?
16 Q. During your stay, yes.
17 A. On the second day, a unit arrived, Ramiz Delalic's unit.
18 Q. All right. I'll -- I'll get back to that episode in a bit.
19 Well, okay, tell us about these civilians. When did you meet these
21 A. We were billeted in houses when we got down there. They sent us
22 to a house, and a lady arrived in the garden of that house to gather some
23 vegetables, and then she told us that this was her garden and that the
24 house in which we were billeted belonged to her.
25 Q. Did you personally speak to her?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Could you describe her for the Court.
3 A. She was between 40 and 50 years old. She had short fair hair.
4 And she was wearing a dress. I can't remember the colour. It was a
5 short-sleeved dress, because the weather was warm.
6 Q. Did she have any weapons on her?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Did you personally speak to her?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what did she say to you?
11 A. When she told us it was her house, we asked her why she wasn't at
12 home in her house, because she said that she was staying with some other
13 people in another house. Then she said to us that she didn't have things
14 in her house and that she had moved into another house.
15 Q. When you say "things in her house," what do you mean by that
17 A. Well, usually there are some things in a house; whereas, in this
18 house there was no furniture. The rooms were bare. There was nothing in
20 Q. If she did or not, did she tell you anything about what happened
21 to those things in her house?
22 A. We did ask her why there were no things in there, and she said
23 that some soldiers had taken it away.
24 Q. Did she tell you which soldiers had taken them away?
25 A. When we asked her, she didn't reply.
1 Q. Do you know at that time under whose control was the village of
3 A. Under the control of the BH army.
4 Q. Now, apart from this lady that you've told us about, who else did
5 you see at the village?
6 A. I saw another old man. He was standing farther away. However, I
7 didn't talk to him. I simply saw him.
8 Q. Can you describe what this old man looked like?
9 A. Well, an older man, between 70 and 80 years old, walking with a
10 cane, dressed in typical rural clothing.
11 Q. Now, during your stay in the village -- and I'll actually ask you
12 to point out where you stayed from a photograph which I'll show you later.
13 But for now apart from the soldiers, the military personnel that you
14 talked about and the Croatian -- the Croat civilian, did you see any other
15 people in the village?
16 A. In the village, an elderly man came to see us. He was housed
17 across from the river, Neretva River, where the refugees were housed.
18 Those were people from Dretelj. And this older man came to see us.
19 Q. Which ethnicity was this man?
20 A. Muslim.
21 Q. Did you speak to him or did he speak to you?
22 A. [No audible response]
23 Q. What did he tell you?
24 A. He asked where we were from. He told us that he himself was born
25 in Mostar and that before the war he used to work as a judge in Sarajevo
1 and that he was held in the Dretelj camp and upon being released from
2 there was housed in that facility.
3 Q. Now, I'm going to take you back a little bit. When you arrived
4 at the village, did your commander, Adnan Solakovic, also arrive at the
5 same time?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did he eventually come to the village?
8 A. Yes. He didn't come together with us; however, he did come to
9 the village.
10 Q. And where did he stay in the village?
11 A. At the entry point into the village, where there used to be an
12 old railway station which was not in use any more.
13 Q. And at that time, before, as you said, Celo's soldiers arrived,
14 can you describe the atmosphere in the village, please.
15 A. Well, the atmosphere was peaceful. The villagers who lived there
16 were not very visible. They were moving about seldom. It was very
17 peaceful there.
18 Q. Now, you said Celo's soldiers arrived. Can you tell the Court
19 when did they arrive exactly?
20 A. The second day, in the evening, after our arrival.
21 Q. And do you know which brigade that was?
22 A. Maybe I'm going to mix things up. I think it was the 15th
24 Q. Do you know which corps it belonged to?
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat.
1 MR. SACHDEVA:
2 Q. Could you please repeat your answer. The interpreters didn't
3 hear the answer.
4 A. They belonged to the 1st Corps.
5 Q. How did you know it was Celo and his soldiers?
6 A. That night when they arrived, I didn't know about their arrival.
7 I saw them only in the following morning, when they lined up.
8 Q. Well, in the following morning, how did you know they were Celo's
10 A. That morning, the unit was lined up. Celo came to visit the
12 Q. What time did he come to visit the unit, roughly?
13 A. At about 10.00 in the morning perhaps.
14 Q. Did you personally see him come?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. How did you know it was him? Had you seen him before?
17 A. I knew him from before, but not personally. I knew him through
18 television and the papers.
19 Q. What did you know about him?
20 A. I didn't know anything about him until a murder occurred in town.
21 Later on it became frequent. It would frequently be reported on
22 television and in the papers.
23 Q. Let me ask a few questions about that. When you say "town,"
24 which town do you mean?
25 A. In Sarajevo, in Stari Grad, the old town.
1 Q. And when did you hear about that murder or when was that murder
2 allegedly committed?
3 A. On the eve of the war.
4 Q. You mean 1992?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. What did you hear about Celo's involvement, if -- if anything,
7 about that murder?
8 A. All we could hear came from the papers and the television;
9 namely, that he was involved in that murder. Nothing more than that.
10 Q. Did you -- while you were in Sarajevo on the front lines, did you
11 hear anything else about Celo and his brigade?
12 A. I couldn't really say.
13 Q. What kind of reputation did they have?
14 A. A bad reputation.
15 Q. What do you mean by that? Why do you say "bad"?
16 A. At the time, there were several such units, units that could not
17 be placed under the army command. Later on the commanders of those units
18 were removed from posts. The units were disbanded.
19 Q. Which units are you talking about?
20 A. Celo's unit, Caco's unit, Delta, and others.
21 Q. Do you know what Caco's unit was called?
22 A. The 10th Mountain.
23 Q. Now, you said you saw Celo arrive for the line-up the day after
24 you arrived. Did you see him arrive personally?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. How did he arrive?
2 A. He arrived in a jeep, a dark red jeep.
3 Q. And then where did he go?
4 A. He went to see the unit that was lined up.
5 Q. Where was the unit lined up?
6 A. A bit further up from the house in which we were billeted.
7 Q. How many -- did you see how many soldiers were lined up?
8 A. Twenty to thirty soldiers. About that number.
9 Q. How far were you from this line-up?
10 A. Approximately 50 metres.
11 Q. Were you able to hear what Celo said to the soldiers?
12 A. No, we couldn't.
13 Q. Do you know how long he addressed the soldiers?
14 A. About ten minutes.
15 Q. In this line-up, did you see anything -- anybody else, apart from
16 military personnel?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, that day, did the atmosphere in the village change from when
19 you first arrived? And if it did, how did it change?
20 A. The atmosphere in the village changed after the line-up. Once
21 Celo left, his soldiers started shooting, making a lot of noise. They
22 would occasionally shoot throughout the whole day. So the atmosphere
23 changed completely.
24 Q. Well, where did they shoot?
25 A. Nothing in particular. They would fire at electricity pylons.
1 Nothing in particular. They would simply fire.
2 Q. You said the shooting would -- they would occasionally shoot
3 throughout the whole day. Could you be more specific? Was the shooting
4 constant? Was the shooting intermittent? Was it sporadic? How would you
5 describe the shooting?
6 A. It was intermittent. It wasn't a continuous shooting. But they
7 would fire intermittently throughout the whole day.
8 MR. SACHDEVA: Your Honour, perhaps this is a good time.
9 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It's time for the break. And we'll resume
10 tomorrow morning.
11 Well, witness, I'm afraid that you have to stay in The Hague for
12 another day, so you have to understand that you will be under the oath, so
13 do not talk to anybody and do not let anybody talk to you about your
14 testimony. Do you understand that?
15 THE WITNESS: [No audible response]
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I'll see you tomorrow.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of
19 March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.