1 Monday, 21 March 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
10 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
11 Good morning, Witness. Witness, would you please stand up and
12 make the solemn declaration in accordance with the paper Madam Usher is
13 showing to you.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
15 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
17 WITNESS: NAMIK DZANKOVIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
20 MR. WEINER: Good morning, Your Honour.
21 Examined by Mr. Weiner:
22 Q. Good morning, sir. Would you state your name.
23 A. Namik Dzankovic.
24 Q. And could you tell us your date of birth and your age.
25 A. I was born on the 10th of October, 1959. I am 45 years old.
1 Q. I'm going to ask you a few leading questions to quickly go
2 through some background, and then we'll get right into your evidence.
3 You currently live in Bosnia?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You're an economist by trade?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You hold a bachelors and a masters degree in economics.
8 A. I graduated at the Faculty for Economics in Sarajevo, and I got
9 my masters degree in Italy in Turin. However, the situation in
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina is such that my diploma has still not been accepted in
12 Q. That's the masters degree from Turin you're referring to?
13 A. Yes. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. Now, sir, you served in the army from April 1992 through August
15 of 1994?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And in February of 1993, you were named a security operative for
18 the Supreme Command Staff.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you tell us, what is an operative, a security operative?
21 A. A security operative is a soldier working out in the field.
22 Q. Now, as part of becoming a security operative, since you've been
23 a -- an economist in your career, what special training did you receive?
24 A. I didn't receive any special training.
25 Q. What about in the area of report writing?
1 A. In the beginning, when I started to work at the security
2 administration, the tasks of interviewing people, gathering data, and
3 making official notes were something that I did with my more senior
4 colleagues and in the process of work I was learning the job.
5 Q. Did you receive any training in crime scene investigation?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you receive any training in the area of investigative
9 A. No.
10 Q. What about training in the area of evidence collection?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you receive any training in the area of security of civilian
14 A. No.
15 Q. And also, did you have any investigative experience?
16 A. If you're thinking of interviews and evidence collection through
17 such interviews, that is what I did. As for the rest, no, I don't.
18 Q. And then prior to being a security operative, did you have any
19 investigative experience?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And basically before and after the war, you worked as an
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, let's move to August or the end of August of 1993. Could
25 you tell us where you were.
1 A. The end of August?
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. I was in Jablanica.
4 Q. Well, just before you got to Jablanica, where were you?
5 A. In Mostar.
6 Q. And did you receive any notice while you were in Mostar?
7 A. I received an order to report to Jablanica as a member of the
8 coordination and inspection team of the General Staff of the Army of
9 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
10 Q. In that order, did they say who the chief of the inspection team
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Who was the chief of the inspection team?
14 A. General Sefer Halilovic.
15 Q. And who were you to report to on the inspection team?
16 A. When I was there, I didn't submit one single report to the
17 inspection team.
18 Q. No, what I was looking for -- or my question was: Upon arrival,
19 who did you report to on the inspection team?
20 A. Oh, I reported to Donja Jablanica -- actually, I arrived at Donja
21 Jablanica, where Mr. Halilovic was and the members of the inspection team.
22 So I reported to them.
23 Q. Okay. Now, how did you get from Mostar to Jablanica?
24 A. On foot.
25 Q. What time did you arrive in Donja Jablanica, if you recall?
1 A. It was night, around 9.00 or 10.00 in the evening.
2 Q. And where did you go upon arriving in Jablanica?
3 A. I went to the base at Donja Jablanica. It was the base of
4 Zulfikar Alispago.
5 Q. And once you got there, what did you do?
6 A. I arrived at the base. I asked whether the members of the
7 inspection team were there. I was told that they were. They were in the
8 room next to the room where I came. I knocked, opened the door, went
9 inside, and said that I was reporting in -- according to orders of the
10 security administration, Mr. Jusuf Jasarevic, as a member of the team.
11 Q. Who was present when you arrived? Who was present at that
13 A. As far as I remember, Zulfikar Alispago was there,
14 Mr. Sefer Halilovic, Mr. Vehbija Karic, Zicro Suljevic, and Mr. Bilajac.
15 Q. And did you attend -- what were they -- first, what were they
17 A. They were just sitting and talking.
18 Q. Did you sit and talk with them? Did you stay very long? What
19 did you do?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Where did you go from there?
22 A. After that, I went to Jablanica, where I found accommodation at
23 the Hotel Jablanica.
24 Q. And could you describe the hotel for us.
25 A. I don't understand. What -- what do you mean, "could I describe
2 Q. Was it a small hotel, a large hotel, a lot of rooms, a few rooms?
3 A. It's a large hotel with a lot of rooms. It has three floors with
4 long corridors. And there are rooms on both sides of the corridor. There
5 were a lot of rooms. I don't know exactly how many.
6 Q. And who was staying at that hotel?
7 A. The clients were mixed. How shall I put it? There were actually
8 refugee there is who had come to Jablanica at the beginning of the war, so
9 they stayed there. They were living there. Then there were members of
10 the army. And there was also a lot of the hospital personnel from
11 Jablanica. These were doctors and medical staff who were not actually
12 from Jablanica. They were refugees who came to Jablanica at the start of
13 the war. They had left their own homeland because of the onslaught of the
14 Chetniks and then because they were doctors and medical staff, they were
15 providing their services to the hospital which was suffering from a
16 shortage of medical staff at the time. So they were living at the hotel
17 and working at the hospital.
18 Q. Now, you mentioned there were refugees in the hotel. Were there
19 any refugees in the town of Jablanica too?
20 A. Yes. There were refugees in town, and at the time there was also
21 a large number of camp inmates who had been released from Dretelj,
22 Heliodrom, and so on and so forth. So at the time, there was a large
23 number of people in Jablanica, both refugees and camp inmates.
24 Q. And could you just describe how the refugees who just got out of
25 the camps looked.
1 A. They were hungry. They looked terrible.
2 Q. Now, did you spend the night there, at that hotel?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Let's go to the next morning. Could you tell us what you did the
5 next morning.
6 A. The next morning I went to the directorate of the Jablanica power
7 station, as I had been told. The power station, actually --
8 administration was across the road. That's where the premises were which
9 were allocated for the inspection team.
10 Q. Sir, was there a forward command post in Jablanica?
11 A. An official IKM was not formed. There wasn't any such order.
12 But we did call that place the forward command post. Actually, that was
13 the practice in the army. In the brigades and in smaller units, wherever
14 there was a place where there was several officers, whether from the
15 brigade or from the General Staff, that would be called the IKM of the
16 brigade or the IKM of the General Staff. That's how we referred to it.
17 But I didn't see any official order designating that as a forward command
18 post, no.
19 Q. Was there a location that you and the others referred to as
20 the forward command post" in Jablanica?
21 A. Yes. We referred to that place as the forward command post.
22 Q. And that was the administrative offices of the hydroelectric
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, when you went to this forward command post, which was
1 located across the street from the hotel, who was there?
2 A. Vehbija Karic, Zicro Suljevic, and Mr. Bilajac, Rifat Bilajac.
3 Q. And what was their positions? Were you on the same level as
4 them? Were they higher than you? Were they lower than you in the
5 military structure?
6 A. They were at more senior positions. I was just a regular
8 Q. What were they doing at this forward command post?
9 A. When I arrived, they were sitting and talking. There was some
10 papers in front of them. I greeted them. And then they told me that
11 basically an action was being prepared to lift the encirclement of Mostar,
12 to deblock Mostar.
13 Q. Did you see what kind of papers that they were working on?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And did they tell you what the inspection team would be doing?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did they tell you what role you had in this operation to deblock
19 A. I was told that I would be doing counter-intelligence work, to
20 walk around town a little bit, to gauge the mood there. Something like
21 that. I didn't actually receive any specific task.
22 Q. Well, other than the counter-intelligence services that you were
23 to perform, were you given any other duties for the inspection team?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Other than the operation to deblock Mostar, were you told of any
1 other function or responsibility of the inspection team?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Were you asked to inspect or review any soldiers or units?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Were you told anything about the military operation?
6 A. Nothing specific, no.
7 Q. Were you shown any maps of the operation?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were you advised of the name of this upcoming operation?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you ever learn the name of the operation?
12 A. Yes, when I came to Sarajevo.
13 Q. And how did you learn it in Sarajevo?
14 A. When the Trebevic I operation was being conducted.
15 Q. Were you ever advised as to the units that were -- that would be
16 involved, or at that time were you advised as -- as to the units that
17 would be involved in this operation?
18 A. I was told that some units from Sarajevo would come, but I didn't
19 know exactly which ones. There was talk that it would be parts of the 9th
20 and 10th, and then later I saw that the 2nd Independent Sarajevo Battalion
21 had arrived as well.
22 Q. Were you told where the soldiers that would be arriving would be
24 A. No.
25 Q. Were you told or advised as to the areas where combat would
2 A. There was nothing specific said about that, but basically it was
3 known that we would be going to the area of Vrdi, towards Mostar.
4 Q. What did you do over the next few days?
5 A. Mostly I was walking around Jablanica. That's when I met
6 Mr. Sejo Brankovic, who was from the Mostar state security, and he took me
7 around Jablanica, and that's how I met the chief of the MUP, Mr. Emin
8 Zebic and his deputy, Salihamidzic. That's when I also met the security
9 officer of the Jablanica Brigade. I don't know his name know, because I
10 didn't spend all that much time with him. And I also met the brigade
11 commander, Kovacevic. He was the commander of the Jablanica Brigade. I
12 walked around Jablanica. Nothing specific.
13 Later, one day with the general and the other team members, we
14 went to Buturovic Polje, to the unit -- actually, to the command of the
15 unit that was there.
16 Q. And you said "with the general." Which general?
17 A. Mr. Halilovic and the other members of the inspection team,
18 meaning Vehbija Karic, Bilajac, and Zicro Suljevic.
19 Q. And what did you do in -- in Buturovic Polje?
20 A. Nothing special. I don't mean nothing. We arrived with a view
21 to talking with the command of that unit so that they would give us
22 support in the forthcoming combat operations, if needed.
23 Q. And did you attend that meeting?
24 A. No, I didn't. I was outside. I walked round the lake with some
25 soldiers and the escort.
1 Q. Let's continue to stay in that portion of early September. Did
2 you visit the forward command post at all, other than that first day or
3 the day after you arrived?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. How often would you visit the forward command post in Jablanica?
6 A. As a rule, I went there every day, if I found the gentlemen who
7 were in the inspection team with me there. But very often they were out
8 doing reconnaissance and planning the operations, so that sometimes I
9 would not find them there.
10 Q. Now, did you attend any meetings in relation to the military
12 A. No. Throughout this time, I attended only one meeting, when
13 logistical support was discussed, that is, the food needed for the
14 soldiers who had arrived from Sarajevo. I did not attend any other
16 Q. And who was at that meeting and how long did that last?
17 A. Mr. Vehbija Karic, Zicro Suljevic, Rifat Bilajac, the minister,
18 Mr. -- the Minister of the Interior. His name escapes me now.
19 Q. Are you referring to Bakir Alispahic?
20 A. Bakir Alispahic, yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Yes. And then
21 there was Mr. Kovacevic, the brigade commander, and the mayor of Jablanica
23 Q. And were any agreements reached as to the food for the troops?
24 A. As a rule, yes.
25 Q. And do you know about what day that occurred?
1 A. I think it was on the day when the troops arrived in Jablanica.
2 Q. How did you learn that the troops had arrived in Jablanica?
3 A. At the meeting, Mr. Vehbija Karic told me - not me, but all of
4 us - that the troops had arrived and that in the afternoon we should go
5 and visit them.
6 Q. Did you ever visit them in Jablanica -- in Grabovica?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And could you tell us about that, please.
9 A. After the meeting, which lasted for about an hour or an hour and
10 a half, Mr. Karic said that the troops had arrived and that we should go
11 and visit them. We organised ourselves so that we got into two vehicles.
12 The driver of one was the son of Vehbija Karic, and the driver of the
13 other one was a gentleman whom I only know by nickname. His nickname was
15 We got into those cars. It was around lunchtime, and we went to
16 Donja Jablanica, to Zuka's base, where I personally loaded three or four
17 tins with food packed inside. There were pies inside, to take them to the
18 soldiers and give this to them to eat, because they had been on the road
19 from Sarajevo throughout the night and a good part of the day over Mount
20 Igman and through Buturovic Polje, as far as Jablanica. So we took this
21 food to them.
22 Q. When you went to Jablanica, what units were there?
23 A. Are you referring to Jablanica or Grabovica?
24 Q. I'm sorry, it's Monday morning. Grabovica.
25 A. When we arrived in Grabovica, there were parts of the 9th and
1 10th Brigade there and parts of the Independent Battalion, and the
2 commander of that battalion was Adnan Solakovic. The name of that unit
3 was the 1st Independent Sarajevo Battalion.
4 Q. Now, were you familiar with people or the reputations of these
5 three units?
6 A. Well, let me tell you. I personally knew only two men, who were
7 friends of mine and who I grew up together in Vogosce. They were members
8 of the 1st Independent Battalion. As for the others, I didn't know them
9 personally. And what do you mean by "reputation"?
10 Q. Well, the common knowledge and what was being said in Sarajevo,
11 where you worked and where you lived most of your life. What was the
12 reputation or the view -- let's start off with the 10th Brigade.
13 A. Well, let me tell you. As regards the 9th and the 10th Brigades,
14 I have to say that these were units which had exceptionally good fighters
15 and which held the most inaccessible and worst parts of the battlefield in
16 Sarajevo and they saved that town. Also, small parts of those units were
17 outside control. I can't speak about the 9th and 10th Brigade because the
18 brigades as a whole did not have a bad reputation. It was only parts of
19 those units that had a bad reputation.
20 Q. The parts of the units that had the bad reputation, what did you
21 hear about it?
22 A. Well, let me tell you. The biggest problem was that they took
23 civilians to dig trenches. That was a problem I knew about, that people
24 in town talked about. I don't know about any other problems there were.
25 Possibly there was an incident, that is, when members of the 9th disarmed
1 and maltreated members of the security administration. I forgot to
2 mention that.
3 Q. Now, when you said "civilians were taken to dig trenches," were
4 these people going voluntarily, these civilians?
5 A. No, they didn't do it voluntarily. No.
6 Q. Where did they find these civilians?
7 A. In town.
8 Q. And this -- did this include people of all occupations?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did the residents go into the -- did the residents of Sarajevo go
11 into the areas where these units would be staying as a result of this?
12 A. Let me tell you. Those who didn't have to go there avoided going
14 Q. Now, you -- let's return to Grabovica. You see these soldiers
15 from these three units there. Were you involved in the billeting of these
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How were you involved in the billeting of these soldiers?
19 A. No. No, I wasn't.
20 Q. Who was involved in housing or billeting or accommodating these
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Were you ever asked to perform a security analysis of billeting
24 soldiers in Grabovica?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Were you aware of the danger of billeting soldiers with
3 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I object to that. It presumes that there
4 was a danger of billeting soldiers with civilians. That's the thing the
5 Prosecutor is trying to prove in this case. He's not to ask a leading
6 question about it.
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
8 MR. WEINER:
9 Q. Sir, could you tell us whether there is a danger of billeting
10 soldiers with civilians.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, again, I object. That has to be made
12 clear, whether this is an abstract question in principle or whether it
13 relates to that particular episode.
14 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, that's a general question.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yeah, I believe it's a general question, you know.
16 You may proceed, Mr. Weiner.
17 MR. WEINER:
18 Q. Sir, the question was: Could you tell us whether there is a
19 danger in billeting soldiers with civilians.
20 A. I don't know. I'm not an expert in these matters. I can't
21 answer your question.
22 Q. Would you have billeted the soldiers of the 9th and 10th Brigade
23 with civilians in Grabovica?
24 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I object to that. Firstly, it's
25 speculative. And secondly, there's been a clear answer in the previous
1 question that's asked that he's not an expert.
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, the witness has already answered that question.
3 There's no need to repeat this question to this witness.
4 MR. WEINER: Well, one was a general question. The other one is
5 a specific question in relation to Grabovica, where he was with those
6 soldiers who he's just testified were -- that had -- were from units that
7 had minorities that were out of control and did not treat civilians well
8 in Sarajevo. I think he could answer that particular question,
9 Your Honour.
10 JUDGE LIU: Well, I see no difference between the two questions.
11 MR. WEINER: All right. As the Court pleases.
12 Q. Now, when you got to Grabovica, what did you do?
13 A. When I got to Grabovica, I distributed the food to the men who
14 were there. They were around the houses, lying down on the grass,
15 resting. And wherever I saw a relatively large group of soldiers, I
16 brought the food containers with the food to the soldiers so that they
17 could have lunch. I took the last food container to Adnan Solakovic's
18 unit, that is, the 1st Sarajevo Battalion, in order to look for these two
19 friends I had there, Zoran Kovacevic and Cupo. I don't know what his name
20 is because we all called him Cupo.
21 Q. Did you find these friends?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And did you spend any time with them?
24 A. The whole time we were there I spent with them. I found Cupo,
25 who was in the first building - the first house on the right-hand side;
1 it's a damaged building - and he said that Zoran Kovacevic was in the
2 house above that and that he was sleeping. I went up there and woke him
3 up. We came back and we ate together and we talked. I was interested in
4 finding out what was going on in Sarajevo because I hadn't been there for
5 a long time. I wanted to know if any friends or neighbours had been
6 killed, and things like that. So that's what we talked about.
7 MR. WEINER: Now, may the witness be shown exhibit or photograph
9 Q. Do you have the photograph in front of you, sir?
10 A. Yes. Yes, I do now.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, do you recognise that area?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. WEINER: Could the usher please assist the witness.
14 Q. How do you recognise this area, sir?
15 A. I was there.
16 Q. And what do you recognise that as?
17 A. This is the village of Grabovica and the area where the soldiers
18 were billeted. Well, they weren't exactly accommodated there. They were
19 just scattered around. At the time, we didn't know who was in what house.
20 There had not been a roster yet -- drawn up yet or a disposition of the
21 men arranged.
22 Q. Is the area where you sat and spoke with your friends depicted in
23 that photograph?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Using that --
1 A. It's the ruined building on the right-hand side.
2 Q. How long did you sit and speak with your friends by that ruined
4 A. Excuse me. Throughout the time we were there, which was about an
5 hour or an hour and a half. Throughout this time, I sat there and talked
6 to them.
7 Q. Okay. Could you please put a circle identifying the area where
8 you sat and spoke with your friends.
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Now, while you were there, where was Karic, Suljevic, and
12 A. They walked around from group to group and talked to the men.
13 Q. While you were there, were there any line-ups of soldiers?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were there any calls for line-ups of soldiers?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you see Karic, Suljevic, or Bilajac with any soldiers in a
19 A. No.
20 Q. And during that one to one-and-a-half hour period, did you see
21 any military police in the area?
22 A. None of the men wore military police insignia. In that entire
23 village, none of the men actually had any insignia, either of a brigade or
24 anything else, and I did not see any military police insignia on any of
25 the men.
1 Q. And while you were there during this hour and a half, you sat and
2 spoke with friends and ate. Others were eating. What were some of the
3 other soldiers doing who weren't eating?
4 A. Let me tell you. There were men there who were sleeping on the
5 grass. Across the way, in this big house here, when I passed by, there
6 was a lady standing on the steps. And as I was passing by carrying the
7 food container, I greeted her and I said to her, "Madam, are these men of
8 ours obedient?" And she said, "Oh, yes, they're wonderful. They're
9 chopping wood for me and I'm baking a pie for them."
10 There was another elderly man in front of the house who was
11 showing a man which figs were ripe and which figs he could pick and which
12 ones he shouldn't pick.
13 MR. WEINER: Okay. Now -- may we offer that photograph at this
14 time, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE LIU: I guess there's no objections.
16 MR. MORRISSEY: That's correct.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's admitted into the evidence.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P280.
19 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Madam Usher.
20 Q. Now, after about an hour to an hour and a half that you stayed
21 there, what did you do?
22 A. We got into the vehicles and returned from Grabovica.
23 Q. And where did you go after you left Grabovica?
24 A. I was in a vehicle with Soko. We went to Jablanica. I got out
25 at the hotel. I went into the hotel. I found Mr. Brankovic. And
1 together we went out for a walk and after that to have dinner.
2 Q. All right. Let's move to later on that same evening, between
3 9.00 and 11.00 p.m. Did something happen?
4 A. That night, Mr. Brankovic and I were in my room in the hotel. We
5 were sitting there and talking. And in the corridor of the hotel we heard
6 a rumour, a commotion. He and I went out of the room to see what was
7 going on.
8 In the corridor, there were several men, some in uniform and some
9 not, and they were saying that in Grabovica civilians had been killed.
10 Q. What did you do after you heard that the civilians had been
11 killed in Grabovica?
12 A. Mr. Brankovic and I went back into our rooms, got dressed, and
13 then went outside the hotel, where there were quite a few civilians
14 gathered, and people were commenting on the news. People had heard the
15 news. Mr. Brankovic and I then went to the public security station in
16 Jablanica to see Mr. Zebic and Mr. --
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the name.
18 MR. WEINER:
19 Q. What was the second name? You saw Mr. Zebic and Mr. ...?
20 A. Salihamidzic.
21 Q. First let's talk about outside the hotel. When you went outside
22 the hotel you saw many people out there. Were there people in uniforms?
23 A. For the most part, no. There were some people in uniforms, but
24 most of them were civilians; although, in our parts many members of the
25 army did not have uniforms, so I can't say exactly who were soldiers and
1 who were not.
2 Q. And what was the discussion outside?
3 A. The discussion was about this event, that members of units from
4 Sarajevo had killed civilians in Grabovica.
5 Q. Now, from here we're going -- where did you go from here? You
6 said you went to the police station in Jablanica.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, we're going to be discussing a number of meetings and
9 conversations you had over the next several days. Did you have a diary
10 with you?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you maintain any records of the meetings and indicating the
13 dates that you met and spoke with people?
14 A. Let me tell you. At that time, I had a small notebook in which I
15 noted down some things. But later I used that to write reports. And
16 after I had done that, I destroyed my notes.
17 Q. Did you have any sort of datebook listing the dates of these
18 various meetings?
19 A. As I told you, it was a small diary in which I noted down not
20 just the dates but some notes that I felt I would need. But later on,
21 when I had drawn up an official report, I would destroy the notes.
22 Q. Now, you went to the MUP in Jablanica and you said you met with
23 Emin Zebic and Ahmed Salihamidzic. Did you have any discussion with them?
24 A. Our aim was to find out whether they had heard about the events
25 in Grabovica.
1 Q. And what did they say?
2 A. That they had.
3 Q. And what was the rest of the discussion?
4 A. We discussed how we could gather as much information as possible,
5 see what had actually happened, and what we should do about it.
6 Q. Was there any further discussion?
7 A. No.
8 Q. What do you do next? Or what do you recall that you do next?
9 A. We agreed that I, Mr. Salihamidzic, and Brankovic should go to
10 see Mr. Zulfikar Alispago, Zuka, that we should go to where he was
11 staying, and that was close to the public security station, that we should
12 talk to him and see what he knew about it and whether he could give us
13 more details; in other words, to find out what he knew.
14 Q. Now, did you wind up going to Zuka's apartment?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And when do you believe you went there?
17 A. Whether it was that same night or the following night, I can't
18 recall exactly, but I know that we did go.
19 Q. And when you got to Zuka's apartment, who -- first, who went to
20 Zuka's apartment with you?
21 A. Mr. Brankovic and Mr. Salihamidzic.
22 Q. Who was present at Zuka's apartment?
23 A. When we arrived there, we found Mr. Zuka and Mr. Edib Saric, who
24 was the commander of, I think, Cedo's Wolves. That was the name of the
1 Q. And did you have any discussion at that apartment?
2 A. Yes, we did. We discussed what had happened in Grabovica.
3 Q. Well, could you tell us specifically what words you recall being
5 A. Let me tell you. I can't tell you exactly who said what. I
6 can't recall exactly. But I can tell you the essence of what we said. We
7 discussed what had happened down there. Zuka said that he had found two
8 children whom he had saved, that he had taken them to his unit, and that
9 when he went there he was unable to see everything, and that he came back
10 later on and we talked about it. In the meantime, he -- or rather, Celo,
11 that is, Ramiz Delalic, entered the apartment with Malco, his deputy or --
12 I don't know whether he was his deputy exactly, but he was with him.
13 Q. Okay. Just before we get to Celo enters, did Zuka discuss the
14 plight of any of his soldiers?
15 A. His soldiers were in Donja Jablanica. That's a few kilometres
16 from Grabovica.
17 Q. Was there any discussion of -- about any of his soldiers being
19 A. He said then that because one of his soldiers of Croat ethnicity
20 was missing, he assumed that he was one of them. But because they
21 couldn't find him at that particular point in time, they didn't know
22 whether he had been killed or not, but they assumed that he had been
24 Q. Now, you said at some point Ramiz Delalic, known as Celo, enters.
25 What was his disposition at the time?
1 A. He wasn't in a good mood. He was angry and in a bad mood.
2 Q. What did he say? What do you recall him saying?
3 A. When he came in, he immediately told Zuka that he wanted to have
4 vehicles secured because he wanted to return his soldiers to Sarajevo, he
5 didn't need this, he wanted to shoot -- or two of his soldiers, that he
6 didn't want to be there any more, that he wanted to have trucks so that he
7 could return to Sarajevo, to which Zuka replied that he should wait
8 because the action was going to start. "Don't do it because of those
9 people in Mostar. They need help down there." And then Zuka said that he
10 would try to get in touch with Mr. Halilovic, General Halilovic, to
11 consult him, and to ask that he comes to Jablanica as soon as possible.
12 Q. Was there any discussion of Bakir Alispahic?
13 A. There was no discussion. Ramiz was outraged with everything that
14 happened and he said something to the effect that Bakir Alispahic and his
15 Lastes should be conducting this war and let them finish this action,
16 something like that. That was what he said.
17 Q. And did Celo, or Ramiz Delalic, calm down during the meeting?
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, that's a leading question,
19 and you'll recall what the evidence was from the previous witness, was --
20 which was quite to the contrary of that, so it's particularly
22 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that, Your Honour. He speaks -- he's
23 mentioning another witness in front of this witness, which is
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour that's --
1 MR. WEINER: That's inappropriate, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, well, let's stop the argument at this
4 Well, maybe you moved too fast, Mr. Weiner. Could you go step by
6 MR. WEINER: Yes, Your Honour.
7 Q. Now, during -- during this meeting -- first, how long did this
8 meeting last at Zuka's house?
9 A. An hour to an hour and a half.
10 Q. And how long was Celo, or Ramiz Delalic, at this meeting?
11 A. About half an hour. Half an hour.
12 Q. And did you stay for the whole meeting?
13 A. Yes, I did stay for the whole meeting. Actually, I was there up
14 until the time when Mr. Brankovic and Mr. Salihamidzic and I left the
15 meeting, if we can call it a meeting.
16 Q. And when you left, was Celo's troops staying or leaving for
18 A. The decision was not made, and I could not decide based on that.
19 Zuka was asking him to stay, and he wanted to leave. But there was no
20 definite decision at the time. When we left, they stayed together at that
22 Q. Now, where did you go next?
23 A. We went back to the station -- the public security station in
25 Q. And what did you do there?
1 A. Nothing. We talked about the meeting, and then everyone left.
2 Brankovic and I went back to the hotel. He went back to his room; I went
3 back to my room. We were writing down notes, reports, and so on. What we
4 heard, we were putting down on paper -- actually, that's what I was doing.
5 Q. Did you write a report that evening?
6 A. Not the whole report. I drafted a part of it. I sent the first
7 report immediately after the events. Actually, as soon as I found out
8 about the events, I sent the first report to the security administration
9 of the General Staff, just a couple of sentences stating what happened, in
10 which area, and which units were billeted in that area. I sent that to
11 General Jusuf Jasarevic.
12 Q. Okay. And when did you send that? Was that on the same day, the
13 next day?
14 MR. MORRISSEY: I object to that. There is to be no leading in
15 relation to the date of that being sent. The witness can answer the
16 question himself as he -- well, that's the objection.
17 JUDGE LIU: Well, I see no problem with this question.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I can explain the problem very
19 clearly. My learned friend knows exactly what it is. If he wants to
20 object to me making speeches in front of the witness, then the witness
21 should be given the chance to take a break now and I'll explain what the
22 problem is. But perhaps I can do it simply. If Your Honour refers to
23 the -- to the proofing note and the date that's mentioned of sending that
24 first report on that proofing note.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Weiner, I believe that is a combined
2 MR. WEINER: That's fine.
3 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could ask the first question first, and
4 then ask the date.
5 MR. WEINER: Okay.
6 Q. When did you send that report?
7 A. That night the events happened, the killings. In the morning, I
8 sent the first report. This event, or the killing, happened in the
9 evening. The next morning I sent the first report, which contained about
10 four to five sentences.
11 Q. Could you tell us what exactly, as best as you recall, you said
12 when you sent that report the following morning.
13 A. I will repeat: I wrote that there was a killing of civilians in
14 the sector of Grabovica by members of the B and H army, parts of the 10th,
15 9th, and the independent units were in that area, and I said that more
16 information would follow; I would continue to compile data, and as soon as
17 I had some more information, I would pass it on to Sarajevo.
18 Q. What else did you do that day?
19 A. I don't know. I don't understand the question.
20 Q. Okay. You said you got up -- or that morning, you sent out a
21 report. Did you see anyone else? Did you speak with anyone else on that
22 date? This is the day after the killings. What do you recall?
23 A. The day after the killing, in the evening we were in the room,
24 myself and Mr. Brankovic, and somebody knocked on the door, and
25 Mr. Sefer Halilovic -- General Sefer Halilovic was at the door.
1 Q. And did you have any conversation with Mr. Halilovic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And could you please tell the Court what that conversation was.
4 A. Mr. Halilovic came to the door. Mr. Sejo Brankovic and I were
5 there. After we said hello, Mr. Halilovic asked me, "Namik, have you
6 heard about what happened in Grabovica?" And I said I did. Mr. Halilovic
7 told me, "Namik, I am not behind that. I do not justify it. I want you
8 to collect as much information as possible and send it and inform the
9 Sarajevo command about it." I replied that I was already in contact -- or
10 actually, together with Sejo Brankovic, that I had gone to the public
11 security station and that I had already sent a very short initial report
12 to Sarajevo.
13 Q. Was there any further conversation?
14 A. No, we didn't really speak about anything more specifically.
15 That was the conversation more or less.
16 Q. Okay. Now, during the day, did you visit the forward command
18 A. I tried -- yes. Yes, yes. In the morning, I went to the
19 hydroelectric power plant building, where Mr. Zicro Suljevic, Bilajac, and
20 Vehbija Karic were. This was sometime after breakfast. They were in the
21 big conference room. I went in and said hello to them and asked them if
22 they had heard about the events in Grabovica. They said that they had
23 not, and then I briefly told them what happened.
24 Q. And what --
25 A. Actually, not what happened but what I knew at that point in
2 Q. And what conversation did you have with them, if any?
3 A. I told them that I had been to the public security station, that
4 I had already sent the first report, and then they said -- actually
5 Vehbija Karic said, "Namik, could you please do your best and continue to
6 collect as much information as you can. Continue to work on it."
7 Q. Now, during the day, where did you go after you spoke with the --
8 the three generals at the forward command post?
9 A. That day, together with Sejo Brankovic, I tried -- actually, we
10 borrowed a vehicle from Mr. Emin Zebic and we tried to go to the Grabovica
12 Q. Now, before you're trying to go, you said you borrowed a vehicle.
13 Did you have your own vehicle or a military security vehicle while you
14 were in Jablanica?
15 A. No. No.
16 Q. Did you have any communications equipment, you yourself have any
17 communications equipment while you were in Jablanica? Meaning a Motorola
18 or a radio of some kind.
19 A. No.
20 Q. What sort of uniform did you have?
21 A. I had a -- a pilot's work suit.
22 Q. Not a military uniform?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Why didn't you have a military uniform?
25 A. During the four years that I was in the army, I was never issued
1 a uniform.
2 Q. Did you have a military security ID?
3 A. The IDs were printed in Sarajevo before I left Sarajevo. But
4 since I had left Sarajevo when Igman was falling, when the Chetniks were
5 very close to Sarajevo, within reach of Sarajevo, I went out there to
6 prevent this offensive. I left my ID in Sarajevo because there is a big
7 difference if you are captured as a soldier or if you are captured with an
8 ID of the security administration of the General Staff. Then you would be
9 treated quite differently. So I didn't carry it with me because of my own
10 personal safety, because throughout the time I was always practically
11 walking on the lines of separation or I was at the front lines.
12 Q. Now, were you able to borrow a police vehicle while you were in
14 A. Yes. Mr. Zebic gave me a vehicle for my use that day.
15 Q. And what did you do with the vehicle?
16 A. Mr. Brankovic and I got into the car and tried to go to
18 Q. You said "tried to go to Grabovica." Please tell the Court what
20 A. We came to Donja Jablanica, just further down from the base of
21 Zulfikar Alispago's unit. That's where the checkpoint was where the
22 soldiers were, and they didn't allow us to pass through.
23 Q. Why couldn't you pass through?
24 A. They said that we couldn't pass because that was a combat
25 operation zone.
1 Q. So what do you do?
2 A. We went back.
3 Q. And when you returned to the police station, did you have any
4 discussion with anyone there?
5 A. When I returned to the police station, I talked -- well,
6 actually, we would always drop by and speak with Mr. Zebic and
7 Mr. Salihamidzic. We would exchange information, although I was actually
8 the one who profited the most, because I received most of my information
9 from them. These were people who were on their home ground. I could get
10 information from them. They would know the names of those who were
11 killed. I wouldn't be able to know that. So they helped me.
12 As I said, I received most of my information from them. And
13 whatever I found out, I would inform them about it.
14 Q. And where did you go after that?
15 A. I went to the hotel.
16 Q. And you told us what happens at the hotel.
17 Now, did anyone offer any assistance to you, anyone from the
18 inspection team, from Mr. Halilovic, to Karic, Suljevic, Bilajac? Did
19 anyone offer any assistance to you on that date, or any date after that?
20 A. I didn't receive any assistance simply because the gentlemen from
21 the inspection team very quickly after that, that day or the next day,
22 left to go to the combat operation zone for reconnaissance and to plan the
23 operation, so that after those meetings I no longer had the opportunity of
24 meeting with the gentlemen from the inspection team -- the gentlemen from
25 the inspection team.
1 Q. So after that date, you never met any of them again?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Sir, had you ever been involved in an investigation of this type?
4 A. You mean what happened in Grabovica?
5 Q. Yes. Had you ever been involved in a case of that type?
6 A. No. No.
7 Q. Have you ever been involved in any major criminal investigation?
8 A. No.
9 Q. How much experience did you have as a criminal investigator?
10 A. The small amount of experience that I had before I left Sarajevo
11 working with my senior colleagues, that was basically my experience. That
12 is why later in my report I asked for assistance from Sarajevo, to have
13 police officers sent to me, on-scene crime technicians, an investigative
14 judge to help me with the investigation. This is what I requested from my
15 superiors in Sarajevo, but I never got this assistance.
16 Q. Did you have any training in complex criminal matters or major
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you have any training in homicide investigation?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, you've testified that you weren't able to get to Grabovica
22 on that day. Did you ever go to Grabovica?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. When did you go?
25 A. [No interpretation]
1 Q. Excuse me, sir.
2 MR. WEINER: We're -- we're not receiving any interpretation,
3 Your Honour.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did go. A couple of days after,
5 I borrowed a car again from Mr. Zebic and then went to Grabovica.
6 MR. WEINER:
7 Q. Sorry for interrupting you. And thank you for the
9 And how were you able to go at that time?
10 A. When I was at the checkpoint, I said that I was going to see
11 Samir Pezo, who is my friend. We grew up together in Velesici. That's
12 what I said. And then they let me pass.
13 Q. And did you get to Grabovica?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And who did you see when you got there?
16 A. When I got there, since Adnan Solakovic's unit, or the 1st
17 Sarajevo Battalion, was billeted at the old railway station at the very
18 entrance, that's where I parked my car. I saw Adnan and Samir in front of
19 the building. I came out of the car, greeted them, said hello to them,
20 and then at the side there's a kind of wooden bench and table, and this is
21 where I sat down together with Samir Pezo. And when we were walking
22 towards that bench, we were just talking, and I just asked him, "Samir,
23 what happened exactly?" And he said, "Oh, please, don't ask me
24 anything." "I was on guard duty," he said, "around the building, because
25 I was afraid for my soldiers who are of a different ethnic group." That's
1 when Adnan Solakovic came up to us. He said hello to me, sat down, and
2 when he heard what we were talking about, he said, "Well, just forget
3 about that now. You see what the situation is now, and in any case,
4 combat operations have started."
5 And as we were talking, at that point a jeep arrived from the
6 direction of Jablanica. It stopped. And Ramiz Delalic came out of the
7 jeep, as well as Dzeki. That's, I think, the commander of the Handzar
8 Divizija Unit. Saric came out. Well, there were a couple of these
9 commander there is of these units that were in the process of conducting
10 combat operations.
11 When they came out of the car, they stopped about 10 metres away
12 from us, and at that point in time our guys began to report via the
13 Motorola that they had broken through the lines and that they had taken
14 Mali and Veliki Medvjed. When we heard that, we got up and approached
15 closer to hear what the situation was, how many wounded, how many killed.
16 But actually the mood was quite celebratory because we had broken through
17 the lines.
18 After that, I said goodbye to everyone. I got into the car and
19 returned to Jablanica.
20 Q. You mentioned Motorolas. What's a Motorola?
21 A. A means of communication. A communication device.
22 Q. And who had these Motorolas or radios?
23 A. From what I could see, one was held by Ramiz Delalic. He had it
24 in his hand. And his one was turned on. I think that Dzeki also -- I'm
25 not sure. As far as I can remember, also had one. But the one that Ramiz
1 Delalic had was operating at that time, and that's how we heard what was
2 going on.
3 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, I think now would be a time for a
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, we'll resume at 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Weiner. Please continue.
9 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Sir, I'd like to return again to that visit you made to Grabovica
11 where you met Adnan Solakovic and Samir Pezo. Did you make any
12 observations in the area, any observations relating to the massacre?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And you said you left a short time after the -- they received the
15 good news, the soldiers received the good news over the radios. Why did
16 you leave?
17 A. Well, I left because I saw no reason to stay. At that point in
18 time, with regard to the goal of my arrival, there was no one for me to
19 talk to. Both Adnan and Samir were very sparing in their comments. And
20 then when the celebrations started and the rejoicing, then it seemed out
21 of place for me to bring up what had happened before that.
22 Q. All right. Now, sir, I'd like to show you some documents.
23 MR. WEINER: May the witness be shown Exhibit 215, 215.
24 Q. Do you have it in front of you, sir?
25 A. Yesterdays
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you recognise that document, sir?
3 A. Can you show me the document to the end? I can see almost
4 nothing here.
5 MR. WEINER: Could the document please be scrolled to the end.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what do you recognise that document as?
8 A. This is one of the reports I sent to the military security
9 administration, to the attention of the General Jusuf Jasarevic.
10 Q. Now, at the end, you made five proposals, mainly in relation to
11 the establishment of a investigative team. Why did you make those
12 proposes, sir?
13 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, perhaps they should be brought up on
14 the screen so that the Court can see them when the -- when the witness is
15 discussing them.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
17 MR. WEINER: It's page 3 in the English. In Bosnian, it's page
19 Q. Why did you request that a -- an investigative team be formed?
20 A. I requested -- I requested it for the simple reason that I alone,
21 as an individual, could do nothing. First of all, because I'm not trained
22 to do that job and I am not an expert on it. And according to what little
23 knowledge I had, and in view of the meagre training I had had, I felt that
24 this case required an investigation conducted by a large number of experts
25 and trained professionals. That's why I asked my superior,
1 General Jusuf Jasarevic, for assistance. I asked that he send me a team
2 which would assist me -- or rather, which -- if such orders were issued,
3 could carry out the investigation, because, let me repeat, I alone as an
4 individual with no command authority and not properly trained for this
5 job, was unable to carry it out. That's why I asked the general for
6 assistance, either that they should assist me or that they should conduct
7 the investigation themselves. However, I never received any assistance.
8 Q. Now, sir, you've testified that you sent an initial report out, a
9 very short report, on September 9th. This report dated September 13th,
10 what report was this? Was this basically the second, the third, the
11 fourth, fifth, sixth? As best as you can recall.
12 A. As far as I can recall, this was the second.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. WEINER: Could the witness next be shown Exhibit 225, please.
15 Q. Sir, do you have the report in front of you, or the document in
16 front of you?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Prior to coming to The Hague, had you ever seen this document
19 before? Or prior to speaking with The Hague investigators.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Had you ever received any communication with this information or
22 with making these requests from Chief Jusuf Jasarevic?
23 A. No, never.
24 Q. Had you obtained any of this information that was requested by
25 this date, the 15th of September?
1 A. I never obtained any of this information, nor did I ever receive
2 any order in connection with these events from the gentlemen in the
3 security administration or the 6th Corps. I see it says here "command of
4 the 6th Corps." They never contacted me in any way.
5 Q. Thank you. Did you ever file any other reports while you were in
7 A. There is a third report, as far as I can remember, where I
8 collected the names of the victims and some other information I had
9 managed to collect in cooperation with the gentlemen from the Jablanica
10 Public Security Station.
11 MR. WEINER: May the witness be shown MFI235, please.
12 A. Yes, this is the report.
13 Q. And this is dated on September 29th. Where were you when you
14 drafted this report?
15 A. In Jablanica.
16 Q. And who did you send it to?
17 A. Mr. Jusuf Jasarevic.
18 Q. Now, the information as to the names, you indicated you received
19 them from the Jablanica Public Security Station?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And the next two paragraphs -- or actually, the next paragraph,
22 relating to the Pranjics, where did you receive that information?
23 A. In the Jablanica Public Security Station. That's where I got
24 this information. But I'd heard about it before that. I mean, I got the
25 names from the public security station, but before that I had heard that
1 Adnan Solakovic's unit had saved two civilians, and later on I learned
2 their names from the gentlemen in the Jablanica Public Security Station.
3 Q. Now, the last sentence in this document mentions an on-site
4 investigation and exhumation procedure to be carried out by the MUP and
5 the Jablanica military police. Was there any agreement for those
6 activities to be reached?
7 A. We talked about it in the Jablanica Public Security Station, but
8 there was no agreement, no specific agreement. We did discuss it,
9 however. We discussed that what was possible should be done. We did not,
10 however, reach any specific agreement about it.
11 Q. Was an order ever issued for an on-site investigation or for an
12 exhumation in Grabovica?
13 A. Apart from the order I received from Mr. Halilovic that night,
14 that I should do everything in my power and inform and collect
15 information, I received no further orders from anyone in connection with
16 this investigation.
17 Q. While you were in Jablanica, was there ever an on-site
18 investigation and an exhumation procedure in Grabovica?
19 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of it. I don't know whether or not
20 anything else was done about it.
21 Q. After this report on September 29th, did you ever file any other
22 reports in relation to Grabovica?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did anyone ever request a status report from you in relation to
25 this incident in Grabovica?
1 A. After this, I returned to Sarajevo very quickly, and nobody ever
2 asked me for any kind of report or discussed Grabovica with me in any way.
3 Q. Did anyone from the inspection team, Mr. Halilovic or any other
4 generals or high-ranking officers, ever speak to you about Grabovica after
5 September 9th, 1993?
6 A. No.
7 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown MFI222. Actually, I
8 think that became Exhibit 222 on Friday, I believe.
9 Could he be shown page 3 of that, the report of Mr. Salihamidzic.
10 Q. Do you have the document in front of you?
11 A. Not page 3. I only have the beginning of the document, the
13 Q. That's correct. That's the -- there's another document in front
14 of that, sir. So that's the first page of the second document, which
15 begins on page 3 of the exhibit.
16 Could you look at that page 3 and the following page.
17 [Trial Chamber and usher confer]
18 MR. WEINER: I think they have the wrong document on the screen.
19 This --
20 [Prosecution counsel and usher confer]
21 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, we have a frozen computer screen, so
22 we're going to use a paper copy.
23 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, I'm happy for the witness to
24 be shown a paper copy. It's sometimes useful because the -- as
25 Your Honour pointed out, the Salihamidzic document is headed "Official
1 note." So that's one way of knowing. The other one -- the Brankovic
2 document, has no such heading.
3 MR. WEINER:
4 Q. Are you familiar with that document, sir?
5 A. Me?
6 Q. Yes, sir.
7 A. No. This is the first time I've seen it.
8 Q. Do you see it's a note or a -- an official note compiled by
9 Mr. Ahmed Salihamidzic, sir?
10 A. Yes, I can see it.
11 Q. And you'll notice that in this document he discusses the various
12 meetings that you and he and others attended, especially on the second
13 page. One paragraph begins on September 10, another one in the morning of
14 September 9th, another one on September 10th.
15 A. Yes, I can see it.
16 Q. Now, if you notice -- there's actually another one on September
17 10th. The dates of the meetings that he describes seem to be a day or a
18 few days different from yours. Do you know any reason for that?
19 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, that ought to be -- I
20 suppose -- I withdraw the objection.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you. The possibility
22 of making a mistake in the dates, well, we all worked -- or rather,
23 speaking for myself, I worked as well as I was able to. Reports were not
24 drawn up and sent on the same day. They took several days to compile.
25 And the possibility of making a mistake in the date was there. At the
1 time, the date didn't mean much to me. My goal was to collect as much
2 information as possible and to inform the command in Sarajevo. Now, 12
3 years later, I really cannot be 100 per cent certain whether it was the
4 8th or the 9th or the 10th. The chronology of events, as I have told
5 them, is something I abide by, but now, 12 years later, I cannot guarantee
6 that the dates are all correct.
7 Q. Now -- thank you.
8 MR. WEINER: Could the witness now be shown Exhibit 214, please.
9 Q. Sir, do you have the document in front of you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you recognise that document?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you ever receive that document?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Do you recall ever receiving any assistance from the 6th Corps?
16 A. No, never. I received no assistance and no one ever contacted
17 me. I see that my name is mentioned in this report, and there are some
18 words which I allegedly said, but this is not true. No one ever contacted
19 me, nor did I ever tell anyone that Vehbija Karic or anybody else among
20 the members of the inspection team ordered me to stop the investigation.
21 This is not correct.
22 Q. That was my question, as to whether anyone had ever ordered you
23 to stop. And your response is that it's not correct, that it didn't
25 A. No one ever gave me such an order.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. WEINER: Could the witness be shown MFI232. Could they turn
3 to the text of the document. The front page is on the screen. Thank you.
4 Q. Sir, have you ever seen that document prior to being shown --
5 shown it by the Office of the Prosecutor?
6 A. Never.
7 Q. Did you receive it at any time?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were you aware of the Uzdol incident during the month of
10 September while you were in Jablanica?
11 A. No. I learned about it when I returned to Sarajevo.
12 Q. Did anyone ever give you any assignments in relation to Uzdol?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Even after you returned to Sarajevo, did you receive any
15 communications or assignments in relation to Uzdol?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you.
18 MR. WEINER: Could we move to 65 ter document 132, which has an
19 ERN of 0342-9809.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI281.
21 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, this is the book. Your Honours, I
22 object to this. There's a lot that needs to be discussed about this book.
23 Now, I don't know whether to raise an ad hoc objection right now or
24 whether the witness should be given a break and we can raise it properly.
25 But if it's to be shown to the witness now, then I want to raise what I
1 have to raise about it.
2 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, we have some procedural matters to
3 discuss, so Madam Usher will show you out of the room, and after that
4 we'll invite you to come back.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey. Let's talk about the book.
7 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Well, this book is not an appropriate -- this witness is not an
9 appropriate person to put this book to, in the least. As I understand it,
10 he hadn't seen it until he was generously shown it by the Prosecutor. He
11 hasn't acted on it. It hasn't guided anything he did or influenced any of
12 his recollections in any way. And frankly, it's just a -- got nothing to
13 do with this witness whatsoever. It's just irrelevant to him completely.
14 So for that reason -- well, there's a number of technical sort of
15 objections to raise, but right now there's a very simple one, and that is
16 that this is just an unrelated document to him. So I object to it on that
18 JUDGE LIU: But anyway, we have to establish that through the
19 questions and the answers. Maybe you could allow the Prosecution to ask
20 some preliminary questions on this book.
21 MR. MORRISSEY: I certainly will, Your Honours. I think I should
22 raise the objection now because I think the Prosecutor has indicated in
23 the proofing note what is the status of this witness is in relation to
24 that. Your Honour is right. Of course there are some preliminary
25 questions to ask, but they're hollow and pointless unless they lead to a
1 particular answer. And I think my friend may know what the answer is
2 already. Anyway, I'll -- that's my objection at this point.
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
4 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, the witness is aware that the -- that
5 this defendant had written a book and that several other generals of
6 various sides during war had written a book about their exploits. What
7 the witness can talk about is there are four different passages where his
8 name is mentioned as to what he was doing, what was said to him, what he
9 in fact said, and he would like to comment on each of those.
10 We would then introduce the book through other witnesses. So
11 basically we would have him comment on those four passages where it
12 mentions he was he was given certain assignments or he had certain
13 conversations with the defendant. And as to the truth or correctfulness
14 of those, and then from there we would introduce the book at some later
15 time through another witness.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, that -- that didn't answer
18 the question and the issue in any way, and it leaves also open this
19 question, which Mr. Weiner can now answer, I imagine. Through which
20 witness is he proposing to introduce this book?
21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
22 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, it will be at a future time. We'll
23 introduce it. I'm not going to give up any of our strategy or our -- or
24 our plans it to counsel. It's not required and I have no intention of
25 doing it, Your Honour. It will be introduced through another witness.
1 JUDGE LIU: Well, as for the -- which witness you are going to
2 use this document, I believe that I have no intention to know at this
3 stage, but I could not agree with you that you could not tell the Defence
4 about your strategy at this stage. Because we have heard about more than
5 half of the witnesses already, and I think you should present your case
6 entirely to this Court and to the Defence, just to avoid any surprise
7 attack on the other party.
8 MR. WEINER: We were planning to introduce it through Mr. Hodzic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
10 Concerning of using this document, I believe that the name of
11 the -- this witness is mentioned. The witness is entitled to comment on
12 those parts of the document, so the Prosecution is allowed to ask some
13 questions on those relevant parts of this book.
14 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I understand the ruling. I won't
15 argue with that part of it. But there is another issue as to this.
16 Just because the Prosecutor says he wants to introduce it through
17 another irrelevant witness -- or another witness who has no relationship
18 to this -- to this document, does not mean that he's entitled to show it
19 to this one.
20 Now, my friend has said that he wanted to introduce it through
21 Mr. Hodzic. But that's not good enough, frankly. It has to be shown that
22 Mr. Hodzic would be entitled to have that document put to him, and it
23 would have to be shown that Mr. Hodzic is a witness through whom that
24 document ought to be presented.
25 Your Honours, as you know, past statements of witnesses and in
1 some cases of accused people, can in some circumstances be admitted. And
2 they may have some probative value in certain circumstances. But it is
3 not good enough simply to say, "Well, Mr. Halilovic or his editors at some
4 point compiled a book which at some point may have been published in its
5 original form or a -- or a different form. What has to be shown is that
6 that's his words and that he's acknowledged them. And doing that through
7 this witness or through Mr. Hodzic -- in fact, Your Honours, what I will
8 say is that Mr. Hodzic is a worse person to put it through than this
10 At the moment, I'm very troubled by this. It seems to me -- I'm
11 not attempting to impute bad faith in any way, but it seems to me this is
12 an attempt to get this document in without the usual course that the
13 Prosecutor should follow of calling one of their investigators, which
14 Your Honours have noticed no doubt does not appear on the witness list in
15 this case.
16 Now, if they wanted to say, "Well, as an investigator we've
17 gathered various pieces of information that may be of use to the Court,"
18 then in that situation sometimes you might accept that -- that document,
19 that book, or some other thing that Mr. Halilovic might have said on other
21 But to put it through witnesses who -- to whom it's just a
22 free -- to whom it's got no relationship at all is not proper and not
24 Now, Your Honours is in one sense right. If it were acceptable
25 to put it through Mr. Hodzic, if the document were otherwise admissible,
1 frankly, Your Honours' Honour's ruling, if I may say so, is entirely
2 correct of course. Then if the document was going to be -- then I
3 wouldn't have an objection to show that to the document as propose. But
4 what hasn't been established yet is that the document should be put
5 through Mr. Hodzic at all. And it has to be shown that there is some
6 proper basis for that being done. At the moment I'm not aware of any.
7 And that's why I asked the question, frankly, to see who it's going to go
8 through, because we know who's left now in terms of the Grabovica
9 witnesses and it looks to me as if not one of them was a proper one. Now
10 that the name Mr. Hodzic has been mentioned, what I want to submit is that
11 there could be no proper basis. It's not good enough, for example for
12 Mr. Hodzic to have written a book of his own. It's not good enough that
13 Mr. Hodzic may have read part of the book or seen part of the book.
14 That's got knob to do with it. Otherwise, it could have been given to
15 Mr -- Witness D to read in proofing and then put to him.
16 Your Honours, there has to be some sense here to have putting
17 this evidence through a proper witness. Your Honours' ruling is right,
18 but it operates on a basis that the documents otherwise tenderable through
19 Mr. Hodzic. And at the moment the Prosecution hasn't shown in any form
20 why Mr. Hodzic is better off. And it -- what I want to do is to make it
21 clear that it would not be sufficient merely to say Mr. Hodzic has read
22 it, because the Prosecutors have read it as well, but that doesn't -- that
23 doesn't suffice. So that's what I have to add.
24 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that at this stage we have to
25 distinguish two matters: One is using of this document in the
1 proceedings; the other is admission into the evidence of this document.
2 They are two related but somehow separate matters.
3 I believe this document is published as a book, which is
4 available by everybody, and in this case I don't think there's any problem
5 to admit this document into the evidence at all. But anyway, the Trial
6 Chamber will consider the testimonies of all those witnesses related to
7 this book in the future and then we'll decide whether to admit it or not.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, I'm -- I'm bound by
9 Your Honour's ruling on the matter.
10 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
11 So could we call back the witness.
12 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, we just discussed some procedural
15 matters, and I apologise to you for the interruption. Are you ready to
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
19 Mr. Weiner.
20 MR. WEINER: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Dzankovic, do you know whether the defendant, Mr. Halilovic,
22 has written a book?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And how did you learn about that?
25 A. I found out about it from the media.
1 Q. Which media in particular? Meaning, was it radio, television,
2 newspapers, magazines? Which media?
3 A. As far as I can remember, I read it in the newspaper.
4 Q. Did you purchase a copy of this book or do you have one?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Have you read it?
7 A. No.
8 Q. I'd like to show you a passage of it which concerns Uzdol and
10 MR. WEINER: May the witness be shown that passage again. That's
11 65 ter 132, and that's 0342-9809.
12 Q. I'd like to show you four different quotations in that. The
13 first one is on page 2 of the English, which is page 114 of the B/C/S.
14 Q. Sir, do you have page 114 of the B/C/S in front of you?
15 A. I have a page, but I don't see the number. I don't see the page
16 number. I do have the document here though.
17 MR. WEINER: It should be the 9810 has the number 114 on the
18 bottom. So it's the second page. Thank you.
19 Q. Now, in the middle of that, which is the middle paragraph, sir,
20 in the middle of the middle paragraph it says: "A part of the team
21 (Bilajac, Suljevic, and Karic) went out on 1 September 1993 together with
22 Namik Dzankovic and Hasanpasic to conduct preparations for stationing
23 units in the Jablanica sector as the plan of the operation envisaged their
24 engagement along the village of Vrdi-Listica access."
25 Sir, did that ever occur?
1 A. Well, at the time, I was actually in Mostar.
2 Q. Were you involved at all with the stationing of units in the
3 Jablanica sector?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Or the preparation for the stationing of units?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Now, sir, if we continue on that same page, which would be pages
8 2 and 3 in the English, at the -- beginning with the last paragraph: "On
9 the morning of 4 September ...." It talks about a meeting of Rasim Delic
10 arriving in Jablanica and that the defendant reported to Rasim Delic,
11 informing him of the details of the operation.
12 And then on the next page, it says: "All the team members, the
13 commander of the 6th Corps, commander of the 46th Brigade, commander of
14 the Zulfikar Reconnaissance and Sabotage Brigade were present at the
16 On September 4th, did you ever attend that meeting?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Were you aware of such a meeting?
19 A. No. I was in Mostar at the time.
20 Q. Let us continue. On page 4 in the English, the third paragraph,
21 which is page 117 on the bottom in the B/C/S, which is page 9813 on the
23 Do you see that paragraph: "According to the report by a team
24 led by Bilajac, the tragic incident in the village of Grabovica took place
25 on the night between the 7th and 8th of September, 1993. The team learnt
1 about the incident from its member, Namik Dzankovic, an operative in the
2 ARBiH security administration at about 1000 hours on 8 September.
3 According to Jankovic's report, he had learnt about it in the Jablanica
4 SJB public security station. He immediately informed the other organs of
5 the Jablanica SJB, were attempting to shed light on this tragic
6 incident" - I'm sorry - "tragic event. The SVK team ordered him to take
7 part in the work of the MUP, Ministry of the Interior, team to help
8 identify the perpetrator."
9 Is that correct, sir?
10 A. This is what I said before, that I came to see the gentlemen at
11 the hydroelectric power plant in Jablanica. I asked them if they knew
12 what had happened. I informed them that I had been at the public security
13 station in Jablanica and that I had sent the first report to Sarajevo, to
14 the security administration. Then I was told what I already said.
15 Mr. Karic said that I should try to find as many -- as much information
16 about it as possible and then -- and that I should work together with the
17 security organs in Jablanica, which is what I did. That is more or less
19 Q. Okay. And then the next paragraph, sir: "On the afternoon of 9
20 September, I arrived in Jablanica from Konjic and Dobro Polje. Namik
21 immediately told me what happened. I ordered him there and then to inform
22 the security administration and Rasim Delic immediately to seek assistance
23 from the administration, to take part along with security organs of the
24 44th Jablanica Brigade in the work of the MUP team, and to immediately
25 request that the 6th Corps security chief come over because the tragic
1 incident took place in the zone of responsibility of the 6th Corps. Namik
2 responded by saying that he had already done most of this on his own
3 initiative and that on the basis of his responsibilities as a security
4 organ. He also said that he would try and carry out the rest of the tasks
5 I had given him at the very earliest."
6 Sir, do you recall that conversation?
7 A. That's the conversation that I spoke about before, when the
8 general came to my door, to the door of my room in the Jablanica Hotel,
9 and issued an order. This order wasn't as specific as it says here.
10 Before that, he said, "Namik, I am not behind this. I would like to have
11 as much information gathered as possible and the command in Sarajevo
12 informed about it." What it says here as a fact -- actually it's true
13 that I did carry out most of the tasks that are mentioned here later.
14 Q. But, sir, were you given those specific orders to carry out those
15 tasks by Sefer Halilovic?
16 A. Not as specifically as it is stated here, no.
17 Q. What orders were you given by Sefer Halilovic?
18 A. Again, I am repeating: The general told me, "Namik, I'm not
19 behind this. I do not justify it. I would like to have as much
20 information gathered as possible and that the command in Sarajevo is
21 informed about it or, actually, the security administration," of which I
22 was a member, and this is what I did.
23 Q. Did you ever receive any other orders by Sefer Halilovic in
24 relation to Grabovica?
25 A. No. I repeat once again: Not from him or from any of the other
1 members of the team, because after that they went to the combat operation
2 zone and I was not able to communicate with them because I did not have
3 any means of communication. So the communication that I actually
4 conducted was one-way communication, in which I was passing on the
5 information I had compiled on to Sarajevo.
6 Q. Now, sir, I'd like to show you another document, the last of the
7 documents. It's a Defence document, MFI130.
8 Sir, were you aware -- or first, do you have the document in
9 front of you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. Sir, were you aware that a report was filed by the
12 inspection team?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Is your name mentioned on the first page?
15 A. Yes, under number 6.
16 Q. On the last page, there are signatories.
17 A. I don't see that. I don't have that page in front of me.
18 MR. WEINER: Could the registrar please scroll down to the last
20 Q. Are those signatories members of the inspection team?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Are those individuals that you had spoken with?
23 A. How do you mean "spoke with"?
24 Q. When you first arrived in early September and during those first
25 several days of September, did you speak with those individuals?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And can you tell me what this report appears to be.
3 A. I've seen the heading and the bottom. I guess it's a report by
4 the inspection team.
5 Q. Were you involved in the drafting of this document?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Other than the first page, is your participation on the
8 inspection team discussed in this document?
9 A. In this report you mean?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. As far as I can see, no. I mean, I didn't read it. I don't
13 On page 4, my name is not mentioned.
14 Q. Were you ever sent a copy of this report?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you. Oh, just one more question: Is there any information
17 in this report concerning the killing of civilians in Grabovica?
18 A. I don't know. I didn't read it and I did not participate in the
19 drafting of this report, and my name is not among the signatories at the
20 bottom of the report.
21 Q. All right. Thank you, sir.
22 Sir, let's return to September 29th. You've testified that you
23 had drafted a report and sent it in to Sarajevo and that you didn't file
24 any other reports after this one. How long did you remain in Jablanica
25 after filing that last report, the one with the names of the villages from
1 Grabovica, the 30 names? How long did you remain in Jablanica after
2 filing that report?
3 A. I stayed for a few more days. I don't know exactly how many.
4 And since I was there alone, I didn't have any orders from Sarajevo to
5 come back. I stayed there for a few days. And then when I saw that I
6 wasn't getting any orders, and I saw also that all the units were returned
7 to Sarajevo because the action to unblock Mostar was finished, I at my own
8 initiative organised my own trip back and returned to Sarajevo.
9 Q. Prior to returning to Sarajevo while you were in Jablanica, was
10 any proper investigation of the killings in Grabovica ever conducted?
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours.
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
13 MR. MORRISSEY: There's on objection to that question. The
14 comment "was a proper investigation done" is one of those comments, rather
15 than questions. There'll be a closing speech. There's a time for that to
16 be said, but it's not with this witness.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes, I believe that without that word "proper" your
18 question could still stand.
19 MR. WEINER: Thank you.
20 Q. Was an investigation conducted?
21 A. I know what I did. As for the rest, I don't know if anybody from
22 amongst the army members carried out an investigation. I didn't see
23 anybody. I didn't meet or contact anybody. I didn't receive any
24 assistance in what I was doing either. I did what I could, and I informed
25 my superiors in Sarajevo about all the things that I did.
1 Q. While you were in Jablanica, did anyone ever ask you for a status
2 report as to the murders in Grabovica?
3 A. No.
4 Q. After returning to Sarajevo, did anyone ever ask you for a status
5 report concerning the murders in Grabovica?
6 A. I don't understand the word "status."
7 Q. A report as to what's happening.
8 A. Other than the reports that I sent then, when I was there, nobody
9 ever asked me for any other kind of report.
10 Q. When you returned to Sarajevo, did anyone from the inspection
11 team ever contact you in relation to the murders in Grabovica?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did anyone ever offer assistance in relation to the murders in
15 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I think that's the third time we've
16 had that very same question.
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
18 MR. WEINER:
19 Q. Once you returned to Sarajevo, did you ever go back to Grabovica
20 for any reason in relation to those murders?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Upon your return to Sarajevo, did you speak with anyone
23 concerning Grabovica?
24 A. No one asked me any specific questions about it. I reported to
25 the security administration then, and nobody ever asked me any specific
1 questions about it. All I know is that within the scope of the Trebevic
2 operation, as the members of the 9th and 10th, some of them, that is, were
3 involved in that operation, we were told to interview them in connection
4 with Grabovica, those who had been there at the time. I did not have
5 occasion to speak to any of the soldiers who had been in Grabovica.
6 Q. Now, since you mentioned Operation Trebevic, when did you first
7 learn about that operation?
8 A. I didn't find out about it specifically. On my return from
9 Jablanica, Mr. Jasarevic gave me about ten days to go home and have a
10 rest, because I hadn't been in Sarajevo for several months. So I went
11 home. And the beginning of Operation Trebevic found me at home. I saw
12 that something was going on in town, that everything was blocked, so then
13 I got ready and went to the security administration. That's when I heard
14 that the Operation Trebevic I was underway. I had never heard about it
15 before, and I had not participated in the preparations. I didn't know
16 that this operation was about to begin.
17 Q. Now, when you went to the security administration, did you find
18 out or did you learn what the goal of Operation Trebevic was?
19 A. When I arrived there, I was told that Operation Trebevic I was
20 underway and that its goal was for parts of the units on the territory of
21 Sarajevo who were not under control and who did not respect the hierarchy
22 and discipline, for matters to be cleared up with these individuals and
24 Q. Operation Trebevic concerned crimes in what area?
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, sorry.
1 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
2 MR. MORRISSEY: Could I just interrupt the witness.
3 Witness, pardon me. It's an objection to the question, not the
5 The witness's evidence didn't use the word "crimes."
6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. The witness said it was discipline measures or
8 MR. WEINER:
9 Q. Operation Trebevic concerned problems in what area?
10 A. As I said, failure to respect -- although I'm not an expert to
11 use expert terminology, to respect command and control, to respect orders
12 from the corps, lack of discipline, and so on and so forth.
13 Q. Yes. But where were these failures occurring?
14 A. I don't understand "where." Do you mean in terms of location or
15 do you mean in what units?
16 Q. First, in what location?
17 A. In Sarajevo.
18 Q. Thank you. Next, what units were involved or what units were
19 targeted during this Operation Trebevic I?
20 A. The object of Operation Trebevic I was for the most part to focus
21 on units of the 9th and 10th Brigades; however, there were also cases in
22 other units in Sarajevo where there were soldiers who were not part of the
23 system, so to say, and there were remnants of Juka Prazina's units, and
24 this covered the entire area of Sarajevo. The main focus was on problems
25 in the 9th and 10th Brigades.
1 Q. Now, sir, were you given any assignments when you went to the
2 security administration building in relation to Operation Trebevic I?
3 A. Yes. I interviewed members of the 9th and 10th Brigades, and
4 this took place in the building on the premises of the security services
6 Q. And were you given any assignments or duties as to what areas to
7 question these people about?
8 A. Every morning we had a meeting, the members of the security
9 administration, and the meeting was also attended by security men from the
10 corps and from the brigades who were there to assist because of the large
11 number of men to be interviewed. We received instructions that we were to
12 interview the men in connection with what I've just mentioned, lack of
13 obedience and so on, things that were illegal, so to say, that happened in
14 the brigades and that were done by the soldiers. The orders were also
15 that those soldiers who had been in the area of Grabovica at the time were
16 also to be interviewed in connection with the murders in Grabovica and
17 statements were to be taken in connection with these events also, but I
18 myself was not assigned, because it was our superiors who assigned
19 interviewees to us, and I was not assigned any soldier to interview who
20 had been in Grabovica at the time of the events.
21 Q. Now, after Operation Trebevic, did you ever issue -- or did you
22 ever write any reports in relation to Grabovica?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Did you receive inquiries from anyone, from the inspection team
25 or anyone else in relation to Grabovica, after the Trebevic operation?
1 A. No.
2 MR. WEINER: No further questions, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
4 Well, maybe we could have a break and -- so that to keep the
5 cross-examination in a whole piece.
6 Well, we'll have 30 minutes' break, and we'll resume at 20
7 minutes to 1.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 12.41 p.m.
10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey. Your cross-examination, please.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you very much, Your Honour.
12 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:
13 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Dzankovic.
14 Mr. Dzankovic, I just want to go chronologically, if possible, at
15 the moment and commence with a couple of questions about your experience,
16 which the Prosecution asked you about.
17 You had some firsthand experience in the actual fighting early on
18 in the war at a place called Kuc; is that correct?
19 A. A place called ...?
20 Q. I'm sorry, I -- I'm sorry, I mispronounced it. Zuc. Zuc or Zuk.
21 A. Zuc.
22 Q. Yes. Well, you feel free to correct the pronunciation of an
23 Australian member of counsel, please, Mr. Dzankovic. I'll do my best.
24 In any event, when you were fighting there, you came to know
25 something about the way in which the fighting units were -- the way in
1 which the fighting units were born. And what I wanted to ask you is this:
2 Did you observe a lot of the units in the Bosnian army to be spontaneously
3 created units?
4 A. Well, of course they were spontaneously created units. We were
5 waging a war of liberation against an army that we ourselves helped to
6 create, but we did not have an army of our own.
7 Q. I understand that at that time you were operating at the level of
8 a fighter and you weren't a member of the General Staff, but just from
9 your own experience, what did you observe about the creation of local
10 units in Sarajevo and in particular, how did they choose their commanders?
11 A. Well, at the beginning of the war, we were self-organised. We
12 gathered together from various parts of town and we organised ourselves
13 and armed ourselves in every possible way. We even used drainage pipes
14 and nails to create weapons. We had no organisation as such. After that,
15 we set out to organise something that was called the Territorial Defence.
16 These were in fact the reserve forces of the former JNA, and it was on the
17 basis of this that units began to be formed, which were then given
18 specific tasks. Before that, we ran from every part of town to where we
19 were most needed. Wherever we heard that there was combat activity going
20 on, we all ran to that place in order to stop the aggressors from
21 penetrating into the town.
22 Q. Now -- thank you for that. And you came to know while you were
23 fighting that Sefer Halilovic was the head man of the army carrying at
24 that time the title of Chief of Staff of the Main Staff; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. And in those days, Sefer Halilovic was a popular figure
2 within the citizens -- among the citizens of Sarajevo because he was
3 leading the struggle for the resistance against the -- the enemy.
4 A. Not only at the beginning, but also later, later on.
5 Q. Yes. And under the leadership of -- of Sefer Halilovic, the Main
6 Staff of the army bit by bit tried to bring in rules to transform the
7 spontaneous units into a functioning army; is that an accurate comment?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And am I right -- this is a comment of mine, but I'd ask you to
10 make -- give your comments, because you were there. Is it a fair comment
11 to make that in about September 1993, when these sad events happened, the
12 Bosnian army was becoming more organised but was still very much a work in
14 A. Of course, yes.
15 Q. And in particular, in August and September of 1993, what -- the
16 army and -- well, I won't ask you about other organisations. One of the
17 issues facing the army in August and September of 1993 was to bring units
18 within the proper command and control system; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You made reference to some elements of the 9th and 10th Brigades
21 who were not cooperative with that system. And again, I'll just ask for
22 your comment about this: Did it appear that the 9th and 10th -- sorry,
23 I'll take it one step at a time. As to the 9th Brigade -- perhaps I'm
24 going to take another step back. In August and September, had you been in
25 Sarajevo for a while or had you been on the terrain in other places?
1 A. The first time I left Sarajevo was when Igman was falling. I
2 didn't leave Sarajevo before that.
3 Q. We've had some evidence from various witnesses in this case about
4 Igman, and I wonder, just so that the Tribunal can know the time frame of
5 the Igman troubles: When did the battle for Igman start and
6 approximately when did the situation stabilise?
7 A. Well, let me tell you. As far as I can recall this was in June
8 and July, in that period. And there was fighting up there for some 20
9 days, until we stopped that and set up some sort of lines in order to
10 prevent the aggressors for penetrating into Hrasnica and further on into
12 Q. I understand. So is it accurate to say that in perhaps June and
13 July of 1993 there was trouble on Igman and towards the end of July or
14 around the end of July the Igman troubles stabilised and the front line
15 was fixed? Is that a fair summary?
16 A. Well, we can say that they stabilised, in quotation marks,
17 because there was still fighting going on up there but the situation was
18 kept under control. We no longer allowed the aggressors to advance any
20 Q. Okay. Part of the reason I was asking you that is I'd started to
21 ask you about your knowledge of the -- of certain units in Sarajevo. But
22 is the position this: That you went on to Igman in that time, and after
23 that you went down to Herzegovina? Is that correct?
24 A. Yes. I didn't go back to Sarajevo from Igman. I went right on
25 to Herzegovina.
1 Q. Very well. Now, did you have a -- perhaps I -- I just want to
2 take -- there's a couple of preliminary questions before we get into the
3 Herzegovina situation.
4 The first one is this: You indicated to my learned friend the
5 Prosecutor that you had joined the SVB in or about February of 1993. Was
6 that at a time when you were connected to a unit called the 6th Mountain
8 A. Yes. After the 6th Mountain Brigade was dissolved, I received an
9 order that I was to report to the security administration at the Main
11 Q. I understand. And I'll come to that in a moment. At the time
12 when you were at the 6th Mountain Brigade, did you know an individual
13 named Dzevad Tirak?
14 A. Yes. He was the assistant commander for logistics.
15 Q. And is that the same Dzevad Tirak who came to be an official
16 within the organisation of the 6th Corps, when that corps was created, in
17 about June 1993?
18 A. I think it was, yes.
19 Q. Okay. Now, within the organisation of the -- the SVB, the
20 security administration, initially when you joined, the head of that
21 organisation was Fikret Muslimovic and his deputy was Jusuf Jasarevic; is
22 that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And did you come to report to a man called Vahid Bogunic in that
25 time? When I say "report to," was he your immediate superior in Sarajevo,
1 in terms of the professional line of reporting?
2 A. When I received the order to report to the security
3 administration, the first interview with me was conducted by
4 Mr. Fikret Muslimovic. And after interviewing me for some 10 or 15
5 minutes, he said I was to report to Mr. Vahid Bogunic.
6 Q. Okay. And up until the time you went on to Igman, was Vahid
7 Bogunic the person with whom you dealt most frequently from the UB?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Very well. And just so that -- just to refresh the Tribunal's
10 memory, the UB is the senior level of the SVB; is that correct?
11 A. Are you asking me?
12 Q. Yes. Sorry, I'm asking you because -- yes, I am.
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. Yes. Sorry, sometimes I have to put a proposition to you to
15 clarify it for us in this Tribunal. Very well. Thank you.
16 Now, the next question I have for you is that when you went out
17 onto Igman, was part of your job to perform operative work there to find
18 out what had gone wrong on Igman? Perhaps I'll take a step back from
20 The battle for Igman involved a -- a large retreat by Bosnian
21 army forces, didn't it, which ended up being stabilised at the end of that
22 particular battle; is that correct?
23 A. Yes. When Rogoj fell near Trnovo, the army started withdrawing,
24 retreating before the aggressor's attacks, and it was in a state of
25 dissolution until at Igman we finally managed to establish the lines and
1 stop the enemy advance.
2 Q. Yes. And was part of your task when you were send onto the
3 terrain at Igman to investigate what had gone wrong and to propose --
4 well, perhaps I'll ask you that part first. First of all, was it to
5 investigate what had gone wrong?
6 A. Yes. On the spot, in the trenches I spoke to the men. And then
7 I went down to Hrasnica and drew up reports and sent them on to the
8 security administration in Sarajevo.
9 Q. I understand. Now, after that time, did you receive an order to
10 go onto the terrain down at -- in Herzegovina?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I'm just going to show you an order now and see if you -- if you
13 recognise that order.
14 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, could the witness please be shown
15 65 ter number D450, and its number is DD002077, and it's to be MFI282.
16 Q. What's going to be brought up now is an order. And I just want
17 you see if you've seen it before and if you recognise it. Just watch that
19 Okay. Now, there's a document on the screen before you. Would
20 you just take the opportunity to read that briefly and check the bottom
21 and the top of it. While you're doing that, I make the point to you that
22 I'm going to show you a number of documents here. You may never have seen
23 some of them. You may have forgotten some others. And it's up to you to
24 tell us what the situation is about that.
25 Now, with respect to this document here, have you had a chance to
1 look at that briefly?
2 A. I have not seen this document before. In Hrasnica, I was told
3 orally that I was to go to Herzegovina. It was only later in my
4 conversations with the investigators of The Hague Tribunal that I was
5 shown this document. I have never had it in my hands before.
6 Q. Very well. I understand. But having regard to that document,
7 was it your understanding that you had been dispatched under the authority
8 of Rasim Delic to perform the tasks which are set out -- well, sorry, it
9 doesn't really specify the task awfully well. But was it your
10 understanding that there was -- even though you didn't see it, that there
11 was an order in existence which required the -- the SVB units in the areas
12 of the 4th and 6th Corps to receive you and to help you?
13 A. According to what it says here, that's how it should have been.
14 In fact, before I went to Igman, on one occasion I spoke with Jusuf
15 Jasarevic and Vahid Bogunic, and then they intimated to me that there was
16 a possibility for me to be sent to that area for the simple reason that no
17 one had ever visited these corps from the security administration. And I
18 was told that in my conversations with them I should see what the problems
19 were and to inform the command -- or rather, the security administration.
20 Q. Yes. I understand. So effectively you were being sent down in
21 your professional capacity as an SVB operative in order to gather
22 information and to report back on the security organs of the 4th and 6th
23 Corps; is that accurate?
24 A. Not the 6th Corps but the security administration.
25 Q. Yes, pardon me. That's -- that was what I meant, and I
1 apologise. But -- so the security administration of the 6th Corps and of
2 the 4th Corps; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Now, I just want to be clear what the status of this --
5 this document here is before I decide whether to offer it for tender or
6 not. This document, you've never seen. But to your knowledge, did your
7 superiors send an order out to smooth your passage and to guarantee that
8 the units down in Herzegovina did cooperate with you?
9 A. I didn't know about this order when I was there. The fact is
10 that the 6th Corps and the 4th Corps provided assistance to me. Actually,
11 the 6th Corps was the corps that was in Konjic, and they helped me to get
12 to Jablanica, and then from Jablanica I went to Mostar on foot, and that's
13 where I stayed the longest. I only spent the night in Konjic and then
14 continued on my way. Once I got there, I was there for a few days. Maybe
15 seven days. I don't know exactly. And I had talks there. I went to the
16 security administration of the 4th Corps and I even sent some reports to
17 Sarajevo from there.
18 Q. I understand. Okay. Well, now, did you come to know Nermin
19 Eminovic when you passed through the area of the 6th Corps, he being the
20 head of security in the 6th Corps at that time?
21 A. I didn't have the opportunity to get in touch with Mr. Eminovic.
22 When I was there, I was in contact with Mr. Braco Fazlic. His nickname is
23 Braco, but I think his first name is Behudin. He was the chief of the 6th
24 Mountain Brigade staff and he was also the Chief of Staff of the 6th
1 Q. Yes, I understand. He was not a member of your professional
2 organisation, the SVB, was he?
3 A. No, he wasn't.
4 Q. I understand. Okay. Now, you then proceeded on to Mostar. Was
5 it in Mostar that you came to know Sejo Brankovic or did you know him
6 previously or did you meet him for the first time in Jablanica later on?
7 A. I met Mr. Sejo Brankovic in Jablanica.
8 Q. Yes. Was that on the way down to Mostar, or after you returned
9 back from Mostar?
10 A. First I met him in Jablanica and spent a couple of hours with him
11 on my way to Mostar. On my way back, since he was also staying at the
12 same hotel as me, we established contact again, and that's when the
13 cooperation started, which was then continued later.
14 Q. Very well. Okay. I understand that. Now, just excuse me a
15 moment, please.
16 All right. Were you ever shown a copy of the order creating
17 the -- the inspection team which you -- of which you were a part? I don't
18 mean during the course of this ICTY investigation. I mean at the time.
19 Did anyone show you a copy of the order?
20 A. No.
21 Q. All right.
22 MR. MORRISSEY: There's another document that I now wish to show
23 the witness. This is Defence 65 ter number D643. It's got an A and a B.
24 And I'll just -- could we just, please, show DD002128. And that's to be
1 Q. Now, this order is an order coming from Jusuf Jasarevic and
2 asking that you be found and asking that you report to Sefer Halilovic.
3 I'm going to take you through that order in just a moment.
4 Do you have a copy of that order on the screen yet?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Now, do you recall when you were down in Mostar receiving
7 a summons to go and meet with -- sorry, that was telling you
8 to "immediately report to the command post of the 6th Corps, to the
9 Supreme Command Staff team headed by Sefer Halilovic, Chief of Staff of
10 the Supreme Command, where he will be representing security administration
11 in the team," and by that I think it means you will be representing
12 security administration in the team. Were you given such an order?
13 A. Yes, I received this order and acted in accordance with it.
14 Q. Very well. And your understanding was when you received the
15 order that you would be representing the security administration in that
16 team; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Yes. Thank you.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I offer that document for tender,
20 Your Honour.
21 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?
22 MR. WEINER: No objection, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It is admitted into the evidence with the
24 MFI number.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Defence Exhibit 283.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: All right. Thank you.
2 Q. And then you've indicated that upon receipt of that order, you
3 then walked across the difficult mountain path from the Mostar area,
4 arriving in Jablanica about 18 hours later; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, you've -- you've been asked a lot of questions by my learned
7 friend Mr. Weiner, and I'm certainly not going to take you through all of
8 those matters again. I -- there's a couple of matters I do wish to cover
9 with you, however. When you first arrived in -- at Donja Jablanica, you
10 arrived at the very tail end of a meeting of that inspection team at which
11 Sefer Halilovic himself was present and also Messrs. Suljevic, Karic, and
12 Bilajac; is that correct?
13 A. I arrived. They were already in the room where I was brought in
14 by the soldiers. They were sitting there and talking. I really don't
15 know when this meeting started. I don't know whether it was the beginning
16 or the end of it. In any case, I came into the room and they were all
17 there, and I greeted them.
18 Q. That's okay. All right. And you've indicated that from that
19 time -- from that time on, you -- you only attended one actual meeting of
20 this team, in terms of military preparations; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Of course you went to the -- now, there was a -- there was an
23 office which you were calling an IKM at the hydroelectric offices in
24 Jablanica. And you personally attended at the IKM on more than one
25 occasion; that's correct, isn't it?
1 A. Yes, I went there on several occasions, but not for meetings
2 which related to operations when the unit commanders were there from the
3 6th Corps, those who were there and -- I did go there, but I actually went
4 there every morning. And if I met any of the inspection team members, I
5 would spend some time with them. However, official meetings where combat
6 activities were discussed were something that I did not attend, except for
7 the one that I mentioned before.
8 Q. Yes, I understand that. There was an occasion when you went with
9 team members up to Buturovic Polje, but on that occasion you didn't attend
10 the meeting that was held there; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I understand. All right. Well, I want to now turn to the
13 meeting that you -- that you did attend. This was a meeting that had as
14 its focus the provision of logistics to the units that were going to
15 arrive in Jablanica on that day; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And this was a meeting that, in fact, did take place at the IKM;
18 is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And present at that meeting were Karic, Suljevic, and Bilajac; is
21 that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And also, the Minister for the Interior, Bakir Alispahic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. The War Presidency president -- does the name Safet Cibo assist
1 your memory?
2 A. I heard of him, but he wasn't present.
3 Q. Ah. The person -- you mentioned that there was another person
4 present. I must say I had a guess at -- not a guess, but I put Cibo to
5 you. Was this person that was present a local official?
6 A. It was a civilian, the head of the Jablanica municipality.
7 That's how I understood it.
8 Q. Okay. I just want to be clear as to Mr. Cibo. Is the position
9 this, that it definitely wasn't him, or you don't know whether it was him
10 or not?
11 A. No, it wasn't Safet Cibo.
12 Q. All right. Yes. Thank you.
13 All right. Now, as -- to your knowledge, Sefer Halilovic was --
14 was absent up in the Konjic area on that day; is that correct?
15 A. As far as I know, he wasn't in Jablanica.
16 Q. Yes. Okay. Anyway, during the course of this meeting, did
17 Vehbija Karic announce that in fact the units from Sarajevo had arrived in
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And was it, in fact, in that context that the discussion about
21 supplies took place? In other words, we've got to feed these troops
22 because they've arrived from Sarajevo.
23 A. Yes, because the units that were there in that area had their own
24 logistics and had the accommodation and food problems resolved.
25 Q. Yes. And although I understand you didn't take a direct part
1 in -- in the original planning of that, to your knowledge -- to your
2 understanding, Zuka's unit was going to assist the arriving troops from
3 Sarajevo with accommodation and with logistics; is that correct?
4 A. I wouldn't say it that way. The food for those units was
5 discussed during their stay in the Grabovica region. I remember that the
6 chief of the municipality and Mr. Kovacevic actually got the tasks to
7 secure food for the units which had come from, let's say, outside, from
8 Sarajevo, although there were also Cedo's Wolves, Handzar Divizija and so
9 on, which were not from Sarajevo, so all the fighters who had come from
10 outside. In the meantime there was also talk that the Lastes had come.
11 All these troops needed to have food and accommodation provided for.
12 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, were the Lastes a civilian --
13 sorry, were the Lastes a -- a military unit directly under the control of
14 the Minister for the Interior, Bakir Alispahic? And administratively
15 speaking, under the Ministry of the Interior, rather than the army?
16 A. Yes, it was not part of the army. It was a unit comprising
17 police officers and it was directly under the command of Mr. Alispahic.
18 Q. And was food for the Laste unit discussed at this meeting, or had
19 the Laste unit already departed in the Mostar direction?
20 A. It was discussed where this group should be accommodated;
21 however, later it left for Mostar.
22 Q. And when you say "later," do you mean later on that day?
23 A. Whether it was on the same day or the next morning, I don't know,
24 but they left without telling anything about it in advance, because we
25 from the inspection team actually found out about it once they had already
1 left the area.
2 Q. And was their departure a surprise, given that they -- well,
3 perhaps I should ask you the foundational question first. Was it expected
4 that the Laste would take place -- would take part in the combat
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So was it a great surprise when they vanished?
8 A. Of course.
9 Q. And in which direction did they go when they left?
10 A. Towards Mostar.
11 Q. Very well. And did they do that on foot?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And when was the last time on that day, the 8th of
14 September, that you saw -- sorry, well, on the day of the arrival of the
15 troops. When was the last time on that day that you saw Bakir Alispahic?
16 A. I did not see Mr. Alispahic at all after that meeting.
17 Q. Okay. Now, I take it your movements were, as you described to
18 the learned Prosecutor, that you then went out to Donja Jablanica and
19 picked up some food containers and proceeded on to Grabovica in the -- in
20 the two vehicles. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Now, just to be quite clear about this, Sefer Halilovic
23 was not with you on that trip to Grabovica; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Okay. Now, I just have a couple of questions about what happened
1 out there at Grabovica. Firstly, the times at which you were out there.
2 I take it it was mid-afternoon to late afternoon. So is the time range
3 there: Approximately 2.30 until 3.00, when you arrived, and departing at
4 around 4.00 to 5.00, somewhere in that range? Is that accurate?
5 A. Yes, you could say that.
6 Q. All right. I understand. Now, you've indicated already that you
7 had some friends from the -- from the 2nd Independent Battalion to whom
8 you spoke.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: And I just ask that the witness be shown
10 Prosecution Exhibit 3, P3.
11 Q. This is a panoramic photograph that I'm going to show you.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Actually, I'm sorry, I've made a mistake about
13 that. It's P7. My apologies. I retract that request.
14 Q. Okay. Now, you were shown this photograph earlier on, and you
15 marked the -- the place where you -- where you stopped. I'm just going to
16 get you to build on that a little bit.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be assisted.
18 Q. Very well. Now, you already put a mark on the other photograph
19 where it was that you stayed talking to your friends, and I wonder if you
20 wouldn't mind just doing that again on this photograph here.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Excellent. Would you mind just marking that with a "1" inside
23 the circle.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Okay. I'm going to get you to mark a few more things. Could you
1 just explain to the Tribunal: Was that building there that you've
2 indicated, was that fit for habitation, or not?
3 A. As far as I remember, it was not.
4 Q. Okay. And while you were there, did you see any signs of -- of
5 soldiers trying to inhabit that house?
6 A. No. At the time when we arrived, the soldiers were tired. And
7 from what I could see, there was no set place where they were supposed to
8 go. There was no plan. They were just lying on the lawns and wherever
9 they could on their blankets. I remember that there were some men from
10 the 9th and 10th there. There were several of them. They were sitting
11 around. Some of them had gone down to the river to try to catch some fish
12 because we in Sarajevo hadn't seen any meat for years, so they went down
13 there to try to find something to eat. They were quite exhausted because
14 of the long trip from Sarajevo to Jablanica going through Igman and so on.
15 There were some among them who were sleeping on sleeping bags or blankets
16 around the houses.
17 Q. Yes. Thank you for that. You indicated to my learned friend
18 Mr. Weiner that you'd seen a lady speaking to -- or that you spoke to a
19 lady, in fact, who indicated that the soldiers she was dealing with were
20 nice and -- and so on. Can you indicate on that picture there whereabouts
21 this woman was when you spoke to her.
22 A. Yes, I can.
23 Q. Would you mind just marking that with a number "2", please.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. Thanks very much. Very well. Now, I just wanted to ask you a
1 question about those people from the 10th Brigade that you saw. To your
2 knowledge, the 10th Brigade were -- or those units of the 10th Brigade
3 that came down to -- to Herzegovina, at least, were actually billeted to
4 sleep in the township of Jablanica itself; is that correct?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Nevertheless, you can say -- did you see three or four soldiers
7 from the 10th Brigade in Jablanica -- in -- in Grabovica when you went
9 A. In Grabovica?
10 Q. Sorry, that's what I'm -- you mentioned before -- I may have
11 misunderstood you, but I just want to make sure we -- we understand each
12 other here. You mentioned that you saw some soldiers from the 9th and
13 10th in the village. Now, can I just ask you this: How do you know that
14 there was any from the 10th there at all at the time when you saw them?
15 A. I don't know. I said from the 9th or the 10th brigade, because I
16 found out that these units were there in the area. I specifically didn't
17 know who was from which unit. I knew a couple of the guys there who were
18 my friends from the -- a unit of the 1st Independent Battalion. The place
19 where they were sitting, that's where the members of the unit were. I
20 couldn't really specifically say who was from which unit, and that's why I
21 said "from the 9th or the 10th." They were all mixed up together. We
22 didn't have any insignia on our military uniforms.
23 Q. I understand. The reason I asked you the question is because the
24 interpretation earlier on had you saying that you saw units from the 9th
25 and the 10th, but what you say now, to clarify that, is that you saw
1 soldiers and they could have been either from the 9th or the 10th and you
2 don't know; is that correct?
3 MR. WEINER: Objection. That's not what he said. That's not
4 what he said, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the witness's answer is in the
7 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I think I did quote him correctly.
8 But if my learned friend wants to point to another part of the transcript,
9 I'm very happy to put that to him as well. I don't want to be sneaky
10 about it in any way. But I understood that was what -- what was said, and
11 certainly that's what was said just a minute ago. So perhaps -- I'll just
12 proceed with the questions.
13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Weiner.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MR. WEINER: No, he said, "I said from the 9th or [Realtime
16 transcript read in error "and"] the 10th because I found out that that --
17 that these units were there in the area."
18 MR. MORRISSEY: My friend has just ignored the word "or."
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
20 MR. MORRISSEY: That's what the controversy is about.
21 MR. WEINER: No, I'm not -- I'm not -- I'm not saying that it
22 wasn't 9th or 10th. This witness had indicated these -- that he had heard
23 people from the 9th or 10th were there and he saw a large number of
24 people. He doesn't know other -- everybody in that area other than the
25 two or three friends he had in the 2nd Independent Brigade.
1 JUDGE LIU: I believe the witness himself is the author of the
2 word he said, you know. Maybe you can re-ask this question.
3 MR. MORRISSEY: I can, Your Honour. I can.
4 Q. Just forgive me for asking the questions as I have, Witness.
5 I'll -- I'll just ask it again. Well, I'll put it differently. First of
6 all, you saw a large number of soldiers present in Grabovica; is that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You personally do not know if a single one of those soldiers was
10 from the 10th Brigade; is that correct?
11 A. I don't know who was there from the 10th and who was there from
12 the 9th.
13 Q. I understand that, but I've got a further question. You are not
14 saying to this Tribunal, are you, that there was anyone there from the
15 10th at the time when you were present; is that correct?
16 A. No.
17 Q. All right. Is your position this: You do not know whether or
18 not soldiers from the 10th were present?
19 A. I couldn't tell who was from which brigade.
20 Q. No, I understand that. But what I'm putting to you is it's quite
21 possible that there was no one from the 10th Brigade there on that
22 occasion at all. Do you agree with --
23 MR. WEINER: Objection. You're asking him to speculate.
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes. Yes, yes. That's a step further.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I'm not sure that it is. Your Honour, I
1 don't want to debate with Your Honour about it. But if the Prosecutor --
2 well, I won't -- I won't --
3 Q. I'll ask you again: As to the units who were there, you knew
4 that -- that there were people from the 2nd Independent Battalion present.
5 That's correct, isn't it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And you didn't recognise any soldier from the 10th Brigade
8 present, did you?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And nobody pointed out -- well, sorry, when you say "yes" there,
11 now I'm going to have to qualify that. This is not your fault, Witness.
12 Let me assure you. These -- it's the questions and not the answers that
13 are the problems.
14 I just want to be clear about the 10th Brigade. As far as the
15 10th Brigade, your position is maybe there was and maybe there wasn't. Is
16 that accurate?
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
18 MR. WEINER: Once again, we're into speculation.
19 JUDGE LIU: No, I don't think so. No, I don't think so. I think
20 that's a correct reflection of the answer of this witness.
21 Q. Sorry, was your answer to that question yes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Thank you. My apologies for the clumsy questions in that
25 Now, let's proceed. Okay. Thank you. Now, as far as you could
1 see in the village, the relations between soldiers and civilians were
2 completely correct and, in fact, relatively friendly; is that right?
3 A. Well, I can say they were idyllic.
4 Q. The soldiers appeared to you to be very relieved and relaxed at
5 getting out of the strict confines of Sarajevo; is that correct?
6 A. Well, I don't know whether they were relieved to be out of
7 Sarajevo, but they were relaxed. You could see that they were tired, but
8 everything else was all right.
9 Q. Now, as far as you could see, there was no soldiers making
10 inappropriate comments about Croats or criticising Croats or showing any
11 hostility whatsoever to people on the basis of being Croats; is that
13 A. No one either criticised or said bad words about the Croats.
14 Everything was ideal.
15 Q. And Vehbija Karic was being driven by his own son in that
16 village, wasn't he?
17 A. Yes. Yes.
18 Q. Was it within your knowledge that Vehbija Karic's wife is in fact
19 Croatian and that his son is half Croatian?
20 A. No.
21 Q. In any event, as to Vehbija Karic himself, you saw no signs of
22 aggression, impatience, or anti-Croat spirit from him during your time in
23 that village; is that correct?
24 A. As far as I could see, he was not intolerant or aggressive. I
25 didn't see that, no.
1 Q. Just a couple of questions about -- about transport. The person
2 who -- you mentioned there was two vehicles, and you said the driver of
3 the second vehicle was a person called Soko. If I mention the name Huso
4 Alic, does that assist your memory in any form as to who that driver was?
5 A. I had never met this gentleman either before or after. I knew
6 him by his nickname, Soko. Whether this is his real first and last name,
7 I really don't know. I know that he used to be some kind of commander at
8 Igman. Then he went abroad and came back. These are things I learned
9 from rumours that were going round. But I didn't know this gentleman at
11 Q. No, that's okay. I think I've exhausted my questions on that
13 Just finally, on the picture that you have in front of you, do
14 you see a large house -- a large white house in the bottom left-hand
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. All right. Can you remember whether there were any people,
18 whether soldiers or civilians, at that house during the time when you were
20 A. Are you referring to the house in the upper left-hand corner?
21 Q. No, I mean the -- the lower left-hand corner, which has two small
23 A. The one with the large terrace in front?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. Yes, there were quite a few soldiers in front of that house.
1 Q. Okay. And was it apparent to you whether there was at that stage
2 a local person connected with that house that you met or could see?
3 A. No, I didn't observe any civilians there, because I brought them
4 a food container with pies as well and I left it there, but I didn't
5 notice any civilians nearby.
6 Q. Very well. Now, you've indicated that at a later time you -- you
7 met with a man called Ramiz Delalic, and I just wanted to ask you: During
8 your time in the village here, did you personally notice Ramiz Delalic on
9 any occasion in the village? I mean on this -- on this -- on this visit
10 with Mr. Karic.
11 A. I didn't see Ramiz Delalic, Celo, there on the spot while I was
13 Q. No, I understand. Very well. Are you able to indicate -- you
14 see in the top left there's a partially hidden house?
15 A. I can see two. Which one are you referring to? The one with
16 bricks or the other one in the upper left-hand corner, to the extreme
17 upper left? Which one are you referring to?
18 Q. I was referring to not the one in the extreme upper left-hand
19 corner. I was referring to the -- the other one, the one maybe an inch or
20 so, maybe two inches in from the left-hand side but still in -- in the top
21 corner with the tile -- tiled reddish roof.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Very well. Did you see -- did you see any civilians or soldiers
24 associated with that house while you were there?
25 A. I didn't see any civilians there. I did go up to that house,
1 because my friend Zoran Kovacevic was asleep there in the basement, so I
2 went to that house because my other friend, Cupo, told me that Zoka was up
3 there asleep. I left the food in front of the house, where I circled it.
4 I went up there. I found my friend Zoran Kovacevic. I woke him up. And
5 then together we came back to this house where he started eating, and
6 there we continued our conversation. But up there at that house, I didn't
7 see any civilians.
8 Q. Okay. Would you mind just marking that top house -- sorry,
9 that -- the Zoran Kovacevic -- Zoran Kovacevic house with a "3".
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. And finally, the house in the very top left-hand corner, which is
12 right in the corner, did you notice any civilians or soldiers associated
13 with that house?
14 A. I can't tell you, because I didn't go up there. There are quite
15 a few trees.
16 Now, on this photograph, the vegetation is different from what I
17 remember. There were more trees when we were there.
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. So that this house up there, I don't even remember whether I saw
20 it or not, whether I saw it behind the vegetation. I don't know if there
21 was anyone billeted there or whether there was anyone living in it.
22 Q. That's okay. All right. Now, look, I'm going to move to another
23 topic now. And just noting that there's still five minutes of court time
24 to go, I might just move to a --
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, I tender -- I offer that document for
1 tender. My apologies.
2 JUDGE LIU: There's no objection?
3 MR. WEINER: No objection.
4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. It's admitted into the
6 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Defence Exhibit D284.
7 MR. MORRISSEY:
8 Q. Okay. Look, I'm just going to jump forward now because we've
9 just got a five-minute spell and I'm just going to use that five minutes
10 for something that's confined. At the end of your examination-in-chief
11 with the learned Prosecutor over there, he showed you a report done by the
12 inspection team. Do you remember he showed you that document?
13 A. Yes, I do.
14 Q. Now, I won't trouble you with showing it to you again. You made
15 no contribution to that document at all; is that correct?
16 A. No, I didn't.
17 Q. No. And, in fact, you didn't sign that, nor did you look at that
18 document before it was sent by the inspection team, who signed off on it;
19 is that correct?
20 A. I neither read this document nor participated in writing it, nor
21 did I sign it.
22 Q. No. In fact, your reports concerning the -- the investigation
23 into the terrible events at Grabovica were reports that were sent back up
24 the professional line of reporting within the SVB to General -- I'm sorry,
25 not to General but to Jusuf Jasarevic personally; is that correct?
1 A. Yes. "N/R" means personally for Jusuf Jasarevic, the chief of
2 the security administration of the General Staff.
3 Q. I understand that. And that really was your obligation, wasn't
4 it, that when -- in a professional matter such as the investigation of the
5 killings at Grabovica, you were obliged, weren't you, by the rules to
6 report to Jusuf Jasarevic; is that correct?
7 A. That's what I did, because that's what I thought I was supposed
8 to do.
9 Q. Yes, of course. And -- and that's what you understood the
10 instruction from Sefer Halilovic to require you to do, to do what you
11 could do in the circumstances and maintain a reporting contact with Jusuf
12 Jasarevic; is that correct?
13 A. Yes. That's how I understood the order issued by the general,
14 and I did everything in my power. I asked for assistance, and in fact my
15 correspondence was directly with the security administration, of which I
16 was a member. I carried out the order issued by the general to the extent
17 I was able to -- or rather, as ordered by the general.
18 Q. Yes. And apart from the -- the requirements of the rules and the
19 requirement of the order that you'd received, you knew that the
20 professional organisation, the SVB, was the organisation which had the
21 relevant expertise that you needed, and that's, in fact, why you asked
22 General Jasarevic to provide that; is that correct?
23 MR. WEINER: Objection, Your Honour. He's now using the
24 phrase "General Jasarevic," which he stopped use ago moment ago, and now
25 we're getting confused as to which general this person is talking about
1 when he says, "I took order from the general," when he's referring to
3 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
4 MR. WEINER: That's an attempt to confuse.
5 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
6 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, my learned friend can throw
7 around any accusation when saying "an attempt to confuse." It's not an
8 attempt to do any such thing. I'll change it. There was no confusion at
9 all about it. And if there's going to be an attempt to confuse mentioned,
10 the learned Prosecutor, who used the phrase "the three generals," when he
11 well knows there were no such ranks at that time, I must say that I think
12 it's a display of professional skill by my learned friend.
13 MR. WEINER: I'd object to that, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE LIU: Well --
15 MR. WEINER: Your Honour, that shouldn't be done in front of a
17 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
18 MR. WEINER: And he knows that. And if you want to do, this it
19 should be done outside of a witness. That's not proper, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE LIU: Well, this is Monday morning, and we have been
21 working for over three hours, so maybe it's a good time for us to break
23 Mr. Morrissey, you could leave your question until tomorrow.
24 MR. MORRISSEY: May I ask one more question and then that will
25 put an end to the proceedings and it will also put an end to controversy,
1 I think, that my learned friend and I had, and it will be an open-ended
3 JUDGE LIU: Well, if without that "general."
4 MR. MORRISSEY: It was going to be this:
5 Q. To your knowledge, Mr. Dzankovic, the rank of general came to
6 exist after these events were finished; is that true? And I mean within
7 the Bosnian army.
8 A. Yes. Until then, no one had had the rank of general conferred on
9 them. Ranks only came into exist in 1994, as far as I can recall. That's
10 when ranks were conferred, depending on the place where somebody was in
11 the establishment.
12 Q. And when you referred to an order by the general to work, you
13 were talking about Sefer Halilovic?
14 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I just want to clear up. If the
15 Prosecution feels that they're being treated unfairly, I want to make it
16 clear that it was Halilovic we were talking about.
17 Q. You received an order from Sefer Halilovic on the night of the
18 9th of September, as you've described; correct?
19 A. Yes. When I say "general," I am saying that out of respect
20 towards my commander, General Sefer Halilovic, who was a general, remained
21 a general, and in my view for me he will always be a general.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, we have to stop here because our time
24 is up, and I have to warn you, as I did to the other witnesses, that you
25 are under the oath, so do not talk to anybody and do not let anybody talk
1 to you about your testimony. Do you understand that?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I do.
3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
4 We will resume tomorrow morning at 9.00 in the same courtroom.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.47 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of
7 March, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.