Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1

1 Tuesday, 5 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

10 Good morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12 JUDGE LIU: Did you have a good rest yesterday?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to start?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16 JUDGE LIU: We'll try to let you go today.


18 [Witness answered through interpreter]

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey. Your cross-examination, please.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey: [Continued]

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Zelenika. Mr. Zelenika, do you know -- sorry.

23 By the time you got to the village, you saw that there had been

24 some heavy fighting at the school where the headquarters of the

25 3rd Battalion of the Rama Brigade was based; is that correct?

Page 2

1 A. No, that's not correct. The fighting was over by the time I

2 arrived.

3 Q. Yes. Well, perhaps the question wasn't phrased well. But you

4 became aware that there had been heavy fighting at the school; correct?

5 A. I don't know. I didn't see that. I saw dead soldiers lying

6 around, but I'm not aware of the nature of the fighting that had gone on.

7 Q. All right. Did you know a soldier by the name of Vlajcic Gusto or

8 Gusto?

9 A. Yes. He was at the communications centre in the school. He's

10 probably better placed to tell you what sort of fighting had gone on

11 because he was there that morning and I was at Prozor.

12 Q. Yes. And how well did you know Mr. Vlajcic back at the time of

13 the fighting?

14 A. I'd known him for a long time. He worked at the school.

15 Q. Yes.

16 A. He's from Kranjcici which is the neighbouring village.

17 Q. And you still know him today; correct?

18 A. Yes. He still works at the school. He's the registrar.

19 Q. Yes. I understand. He's a person with decent education; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And so are you; correct?

22 A. Well, sort of, yes.

23 Q. Very well. Now, there's no one else with the name Gusto Vlajcic

24 in your village or the neighbouring villages, is there?

25 A. No, not in my local commune.

Page 3

1 Q. Nor is there anyone else with the name Kazo Zelenika in your local

2 area; is that correct?

3 A. No, no one.

4 Q. Very well. I understand. Now, you and Mr. Vlajcic both

5 cooperated in the production of a book concerning the deaths at Uzdol,

6 didn't you?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Very well.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I'm going to show the witness a copy

10 of this book and ask him some questions about it.

11 Q. Yes. Could I just hold up in court first of all a book. Does

12 that appear to you to be the cover of a copy of the book which you and

13 Mr. Vlajcic in company produced? I'll hand it to you to look through by

14 all means if you need to. In fact --

15 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Morrissey, would you please inform us about the

16 title of the book?

17 MR. MORRISSEY: The title of the book is "Uzdol." It's a book

18 entitled "Uzdol."

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I have present in court paper

21 copies. An effort is being made to upload the whole thing into the

22 system. Unfortunately, because a technical misunderstanding yesterday

23 that wasn't able to be done, and I would ask that copies of that book be

24 distributed now. The book itself has English and B/C/S translations in

25 it. But, however, we've noticed that there may be a couple of translation

Page 4

1 issues as between the two, so that I'm going to get the witness, when I

2 take him to the text, I'll take him to the B/C/S text, and where the B/C/S

3 text departs I will then see if there are any translation issues.

4 Could the witness please be given a copy of that as well?

5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreters note: Can a courtesy copy be

6 provided for the booths too.


8 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I've been requested to -- that a

9 copy be provided to the interpreters and that should be done. I just want

10 to check that we've got one.

11 Very well. Your Honours, I have -- I'll indicate I'm going to

12 cross-examine about certain aspects of this book. I've got an original

13 present which I can tender at the end of all of this. I was going to use

14 it because I've got my notes on it, I was going to use it, but just so

15 that there's no doubt about the book itself.

16 JUDGE LIU: Well, what's the number of that book, please?

17 THE REGISTRAR: That is MFI 315.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Could I indicate, Your Honour, as MFI 315 we're

20 going to upload it. We thought we were going to be able to do it

21 yesterday. That was technical hitch.

22 Very well. Thank you.

23 Q. First of all, Mr. -- Mr. Zelenika, would you just turn to the

24 first page where the credits are to be found. So I'll hold it up and show

25 you the page I want. Not that page but this page. I'm just display to

Page 5

1 the Court what I'm showing. That page there.

2 Very well. Do you have the page where it says -- it ought to be

3 very early on in the bundle. It will be the third page on the photocopied

4 bundle, the left-hand side of that third page. Do you have that?

5 A. It's empty.

6 Q. Well, do you have the page which is headed "Sarajevo 9 listopada

7 2000?" Do you have that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. To the left of that, do you have a page that lists with the word

10 "izdavac" at the top?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Do you see your name on that page?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Okay. And do you see the name Gusto Vlajcic on that page as well?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And is your page associated with the word "text"?

17 A. Yes. If I may be allowed to clarify something about the book.

18 This book --

19 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... just one second, please. I'm

20 going to ask you a lot of questions about this book. I just want to

21 clarify certain contribution situations here.

22 The word "obrada teksta," that's not translated in English here.

23 Could you tell us what's the meaning of "obrada teksta" which is the words

24 associated with Gusto Vlajcic?

25 A. I knew these people. I knew when they were born. I had it all in

Page 6

1 my books. Those were familiar people, neighbours and relatives.

2 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

3 A. I knew this basic information on each and every person in the

4 book.

5 Q. Just at this stage I just have to clarify certain of the words

6 there. You see the word "text" above your name, Kazimir Zelenika?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. You see that word "text"? What is the meaning of the word "text"

9 in your understanding?

10 A. That means writing down the couple of sentences in the lives of

11 those persons, when they were born, where they were born, that sort of

12 thing.

13 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

14 A. And this thing, "obrada teksta," text processing, and in case I

15 got something wrong grammatically this person would set the record

16 straight.

17 Q. I understand.

18 A. And then you have proof-reading which is one level up from there.

19 Q. So you produced the basic text. Gusto Vlajcic read over that to

20 make sure it was grammatically correct, and then it moved up another level

21 to Dr. don Tomo Vuksic; is that correct?

22 A. That's correct, but not all the persons were there immediately. I

23 didn't know some of the people, so others did their write-ups. There were

24 soldiers who came to be included later, and gradually I did the write-ups

25 for the Uzdol people, those who I knew, but there were a handful of people

Page 7

1 I didn't know. They wanted their photographs, too. I have no idea how

2 they eventually obtained them.

3 Q. Okay. I'm keep my questions to the Uzdol people, but of course if

4 I ask you about someone, for example, one of the tank drivers or somebody

5 else, then you indicate what you have to say about those. But I want you

6 now, please, to go to page 60, where the photograph on the page 61 is to

7 be found and it's a photograph of Ruza Zelic.

8 Now, just wait for one moment, please.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, what I want -- I'm going to ask the

10 witness to read out the B/C/S version onto the transcript. That's because

11 the translation below is not certified in any way by the CLSS here,

12 although it's a translation that maybe of use. So I'm going to ask the

13 witness to read that in. The interpreters in the booth now have a

14 courtesy copy but I want to point out that we would like, to the best of

15 their ability, a simultaneous translation as they see it.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Zelenika, would you please read out the -- the -- in

17 Croatian, please, the extract concerning Ruza Zelic, and if you wouldn't

18 mind reading it reasonably slowly so the interpreters can interpret as you

19 go. I mean read it out loud so we can hear it being read.

20 A. "Ruza Zelic, born Dzalto, 25th of" --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.


23 Q. Stop, please. I apologise for this, and because it is being

24 interpreted there is a need for you to read very slowly. I'm sorry about

25 that, but it's because it's being interpreted. So would you please do

Page 8

1 that for the interpreters. Thank you.

2 A. Right from the beginning you mean?

3 Q. Yes, please.

4 A. "Ruza Zelic, maiden name Dzalto, born on the 25th of December,

5 1944 in Uzdol, father Mijo, mother Mara, maiden name Grubesa. Married on

6 the 24th of February, 1965 in Uzdol to Josip Zelic. She and Josip had six

7 children, four sons and two daughters. What can we say about Ruza? A

8 stout woman, corpulent, very sharp but honest. Her Josip was a miner. He

9 worked in many different places in Croatia. He would come home whenever

10 salary had arrived. They built a new house and moved in. They worked

11 hard. Josip suddenly took ill and went to be treated in Split. After a

12 short illness, he died in Split on the 27th of May, 1992. Ruza remained a

13 widow and single mother. The war began. Her son Ivan died on the 24th of

14 January, 1993, at the Uskoplje relay. She was shattered by grief and

15 pain. She lives with her children: Marko, 1978; Marija, 1980; and

16 Stjepan, 1983. She lived with them until her death on the 14th of

17 September, 1993 when Muslim soldiers, members of the BH army. Started

18 shooting near the house. Ruza threw a hand grenade out through the

19 window, fled with the children and ran for some 500 metres down the road

20 where the Muslim soldiers caught up with her, captured her, and killed her

21 by a burst of fire. Little Stjepan was still naked, and he was -- his

22 throat was slit, whereas the daughter Marija was killed by gunfire right

23 there in the middle of the road. May she rest in peace."

24 Q. Very well. That text is compiled by you; correct?

25 A. Yes. But there -- there are certain changes of that been made. I

Page 9

1 wrote it down on a slip of paper by hand which they later scanned,

2 whatever, and inserted certain changes to my text. Some of the people who

3 processed the text changed things around. I provided the data, but then

4 they turned things around.

5 As for these data, it's all accurate as far as the year of birth

6 and the year of death is concerned and all the dates, but there are

7 changes that have been made.

8 Q. Where did you get the information concerning the hand grenade

9 throwing, Mr. Zelenika?

10 A. I never got the information. I provided my text. They took it

11 away. I never saw it again. I was given the book later once it had been

12 published. Someone had translated the book into English and German,

13 whatever. I've no idea what changes they made later. I hand wrote my own

14 contribution.

15 Q. Well, your information at the time you hand wrote your

16 contribution --

17 A. Someone -- someone included this hand grenade thing.

18 Q. Somebody else has put that in falsely, have they? Is that your

19 account?

20 A. Yes. Someone added something. Someone added something. Perhaps

21 they knew better than I did. My job was to provide the data, when people

22 were born, when they died, but they added things later on, so that's why

23 there's actually more than I wrote. Some of the things can be translated,

24 I suppose. They said, We made a couple of changes just in order to make

25 the translation process easier. That's what I was told.

Page 10

1 Q. Yes. But just a moment. Did you point out this mistake that you

2 claim there is about the hand grenade to any person after you saw the

3 book?

4 A. No. The book had already been released. I got a number of

5 copies. Purportedly this book was published to help sponsor the

6 construction of the memorial centre, to contribute funds. The parish

7 priest was in charge, and one over in Sarajevo too. I'm not sure how many

8 copies were eventually printed. I got one. This book was supposed to

9 help raise funds to -- to build this memorial.

10 Q. Well, I understand that. But just sticking with the hand grenade

11 for the moment if you don't mind. Is it your suggestion that Gusto

12 Vlajcic added this into the story, about throwing the hand grenade?

13 A. There is no way I can know that. The people kept adding things.

14 I wrote the whole thing down in my office, and I gave the text that I

15 wrote to the parish priest. He may have called Gusto or the other person.

16 I have no idea what his name was. And Tomo Vuksic. I don't know this

17 man.

18 Q. Does his title indicate pretty clearly to you that he is an

19 official of the Catholic church, Dr. Don Tomo Vuksic?

20 A. Probably. He worked with the parish priest. I simply don't know

21 this person, that's what I'm saying. That the book was published in

22 Sarajevo.

23 Q. That may be so --

24 A. 2.000 copies.

25 Q. Okay. But just again sticking to this detail about the hand

Page 11

1 grenade, if that's okay. I want to find out who's put that in since you

2 claim it wasn't you. Who else edited this book apart from those who are

3 mentioned in the front of the book as editing it? That's you -- or as

4 contributing to it. That's you and Gusto Vlajcic.

5 A. I don't know. I was asked to provide data. There is no way I

6 could have written this myself. He said, Just give us the date of birth,

7 date of death, father's name, mother's name, when these people were

8 married, when the husband died, that sort of thing. We're trying to put

9 together a book and we'll have it published. I'm not sure what the

10 original price was. I think ten German marks.

11 Q. Never mind the price for the moment. Stick with the hand grenade,

12 please. In terms of the detail of that hand grenade, are you suggesting

13 that the local priest put that into the book?

14 A. I can't say. I don't know.

15 Q. On the front cover of that book -- or the third page which you've

16 looked at already, is there a mention of any other person who was

17 concerned with producing the text of this book apart from you personally?

18 A. I don't know. I did the write-ups myself, including the year of

19 birth, that sort of thing. I gave it to the parish priest. I have no

20 idea who else he called. I only saw the book when it came out. There

21 were some photographs too. He had collected photographs from people in

22 the village. There were -- some soldiers were included later on just

23 because at first these soldiers were not included. Some had been

24 mistreated, so they had son included later. So the book actually came out

25 twice.

Page 12

1 Q. Coming back to the hand grenade, if you don't mind.

2 You at the time knew very well that -- that the deceased person

3 Ruza Zelic had hand grenades in her house and was prepared to defend

4 herself while she was still alive?

5 A. No. No. I didn't know that. I had no idea the woman had

6 actually thrown a hand grenade. I didn't know anything came out the

7 window at all. I had no idea if it had been Ruza or whoever. She was 500

8 metres further down the road. I had no idea that she had the hand grenade

9 or she was actually able to use it. She was a rather big-boned woman,

10 despite which I had no idea whether she could actually use a hand grenade.

11 Q. I'm going to come back to that book from time to time.

12 Now, what I have in mind, Mr. Zelenika, is to take you through

13 effectively house by house the walk that you took when you made the sad

14 observations that you saw with your neighbours and relatives and close

15 people killed. Can I indicate when it comes to your family home and what

16 happens there the questions are going to be very, very short and I won't

17 trouble you with them, but I have to ask you some questions about

18 details.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown P301. That's

20 the map that he -- that was produced in court and was marked by him

21 indicating the houses at Cer and up in Zelenike.

22 I think that might have to be placed on the ELMO, Your Honours, as

23 it was marked yesterday.

24 Q. Mr. Zelenika, while that's being done I just indicate that I'm not

25 going to ask you to mark it again. It's just so you can orient the Court

Page 13

1 and all of us here when I'm asking you questions.

2 I want to take you first of all to the house or to the area where

3 Domin Rajic, Ivo, and Ivko and of course Zerka Glibo were found deceased.

4 Is that the house that you marked with the number 2 there on that drawing?

5 A. Could you raise the image a little bit. Yes, that's house

6 number 2.

7 Q. Now, my questions really concern some facts about what you

8 observed here. First of all, what you observed in this case was that all

9 of the deceased were out in the open in the sense that they -- they were

10 not inside the house but outside; is that correct?

11 A. They were at the corner of the house, beneath the house, apart

12 from Zerka who was further away near a woods.

13 Q. The next question is: To your knowledge, apart from the deceased

14 and those who shot them, do you know of any eyewitnesses to the killing of

15 those people?

16 A. I think that Marko, Zoran's -- Zora's husband was there. Marko

17 who was in uniform, or who wore a uniform, he was a home guard. And I

18 think Franjo, Domin's brother was there. I think they had some sort of

19 rifles. They both died of cancer after the war, perhaps in 1998 or 1999.

20 Q. Now, Franjo and Marko are not people who are named on the

21 indictment here. Both of those are people who were -- who survived the

22 events of Uzdol on the 14th and lived for some time afterwards?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Both of those were people who were of -- who were in uniform on

25 the day; is that correct?

Page 14

1 A. Yes. They were a member of the home guards. They were guarding

2 Kransko Polje, and they left Kransko Polje. They followed us. But Marko

3 was somewhere there hiding in the woods. He had taken his rifle and fled

4 up above, and he was up there in the woods, and his wife probably started

5 fleeing towards him. He survived and she was killed. He had hidden, and

6 he didn't even dare to shoot.

7 Q. Very well. And did he gave a statement to your or any authorities

8 about what he saw, if anything?

9 A. I don't know about that. Quite a few people turned up afterwards

10 and asked questions, but I have no idea.

11 Q. And you personally didn't speak to him about what he saw; is that

12 correct?

13 A. Well, he said shooting started -- what happened, they killed

14 Dominika Ivo. He said, We started fleeing. He said, I couldn't even open

15 fire. He was an elderly man. He was in the vicinity in a -- in the

16 woods. He was crying, sad. It was tragic.

17 Q. Yes, of course. But the situation -- well, I'll ask you about him

18 and I'll ask you about you.

19 What you saw is that the deceased people were all lying dead near

20 to a young man, that being Ivo, who was uniform; is that correct?

21 A. Ivo was a soldier. The mother and father were there by him, and

22 Zerka was a little further away, four or five metres away.

23 Q. But effectively what you had was people killed in the company of

24 an armed and uniform soldier out of doors; is that correct?

25 A. Marko had already come out of the woods when we arrived there, and

Page 15

1 that ABiH then returned via Here. He was already there when they arrived,

2 and he was crying, and Domino's brother Franjo was crying.

3 Q. And I just want to be clear about the time periods here. You

4 arrived after the killing had stopped as you indicated. Marko and Franjo,

5 were they there when the killing started or did they arrive later?

6 A. Franjo was in Kransko Polje, but when we went to Cer, when we saw

7 Slavko Mendes there, Franjo ran home. He arrived before I did. Marko was

8 already there. He was there when the shooting broke out. And in Domin's

9 house there was a cafe of some sort. The troops had broken the glass in

10 the cafe. They took something to drink, juices, et cetera. There was

11 some beer there. They then took the bottles and smashed them and set off

12 in the direction of Here. That's what Marko said.

13 Q. I see.

14 A. There's still a cafe there, but it's not open for business.

15 Q. What I'm getting at here is: Was Marko present when the killings

16 took place?

17 A. Marko had fled to the woods above Domin's house. As to how far

18 away he was I don't know, but he came out before we arrived. He was

19 crying. He said, They've killed my wife. They've killed Domin's

20 daughter. Because he was a refugee there with his wife and they were

21 staying in that house.

22 Q. Now come to the question of Ivo, the soldier. Did you see Ivo's

23 gun when you arrived?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. All I could see is that he had some sort of a bump above his eye,

Page 16

1 but I can't remember a rifle. I can't remember all the details.

2 Q. What you can say about that is that Marko, the survivor, was armed

3 and in uniform at the time; is that correct?

4 A. He was in uniform, yes.

5 Q. And armed?

6 A. He had that rifle. I think Marko had that rifle.

7 Q. Okay. Now, I've got some questions for --

8 A. Or perhaps he was carrying Ivo's rifle or Franjo's; I don't know.

9 Because Franjo was in Kransko Polje. Then he came down with he is. He

10 had an M-48. I don't know whose rifle it was, but I saw one rifle. Maybe

11 Marko had taken it from someone else.

12 Q. Very well. Now, I've got some questions concerning the deceased

13 Domin who was there. You were asked questions yesterday about Domin and

14 his status in the HVO.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: And I'd like the witness to be shown a document,

16 please. This is uploaded. This is Defence 65 ter number D1545, and its

17 ERN number is 035639 -- hang on, that's not a Defence number. That's the

18 ERN number. 05 -- sorry, 03563940. I'm sorry. My -- my assistant's not

19 here right at the moment, and I'm just told now this also might not be

20 uploaded. May I just confirm that with the court deputy?

21 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Mr. Morrissey. It's not been

22 uploaded.

23 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, this is material that was disclosed

24 to the Defence by the Prosecutor under Rule 68, and we have papers copies

25 of it which we'll now -- rather than delaying, we'll distribute.

Page 17

1 Q. This is an official document that I'm going to show you. I'll

2 just ask for your comment on it, please.

3 JUDGE LIU: May we have a number on it.

4 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 316.

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay. Now, would you look firstly at the first

6 Q. Okay. Now, would you look firstly at the first page of that

7 document, and I just want you to confirm -- I'll ask you first of all

8 whether you've ever seen yourself in your position as registrar, or as a

9 friend and member of the community if you've ever seen that letter it --

10 yourself personally before.

11 A. I have never seen this before.

12 Q. Very well. But you, nevertheless, are familiar with the system

13 that was put in place by the government to provide financial assistance to

14 those -- to the families of those who fell during the hostilities; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Well, they provided some sort of assistance, a bag of flour,

17 things like that. So perhaps that was why he was on the list. Otherwise,

18 he wouldn't have obtained anything. They lived in Uzdol, and Marko and

19 Zora had even been in the house. Here I can see that it says Mr. Pavlovic

20 too.

21 Q. Yes. And who was Mr. Pavlovic?

22 A. Mr. Pavlovic, he must have been from Prozor. I don't know. He

23 wasn't in Uzdol.

24 Q. No, no. But --

25 A. He wasn't a commander there.

Page 18

1 Q. No, no, I understand that. But he was an official of the

2 Rama Brigade, wasn't he?

3 A. It says "za," for here. Someone must have signed this on his

4 behalf. I don't know who.

5 Q. We're had some talk about the word "za." When you say "za," is

6 that short for "zastupa"?

7 A. Ante Pavlovic probably didn't sign it. Probably someone else, a

8 deputy, an assistant of his.

9 Q. All right. Well, anyway look, I don't want to -- I'm sorry to

10 distract us there.

11 But could I ask you to go to the next page where there is a

12 certificate, an official certificate saying that Domin Rajic of -- and

13 with certain details, got killed in the Uzdol by the MOS forces at

14 16 hours on the 14th of the 9th, 1993. He was killed by a bullet. He was

15 performing a task ordered by Commander Josip Prskalo. Do you see that

16 part of the certificate?

17 A. I can see that.

18 Q. Okay. And --

19 A. But Prskalo didn't sign this. Someone asked for this for a

20 reason, but I don't think Prskalo signed it.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

22 A. Something is not quite clear here.

23 Q. Well, that's okay. Let me just ask you the details about this.

24 Your understanding is that the government did in fact give some

25 assistance of a limited kind to the family of Domin Rajic arising from the

Page 19

1 facts set out in these letters; is that correct?

2 A. Not the government but our warehouse from Prozor --

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. -- provided assistance for the troops. And then they had to

5 provide the civilians who lived in the places with some sort of assistance

6 in the form of flour, tins, cold meat, et cetera. That was the form the

7 assistance took.

8 Q. I understand that. But what I'm talking to your about now is

9 that these documents indicate clearly, don't they, that Domin was

10 mobilised in the HVO and that upon his death assistance was rendered to

11 the family or was authorised to be rendered to the family because he was

12 performing a task ordered by Commander Josip Prskalo; is that correct?

13 A. I don't know about that.

14 Q. You know the -- are you aware of a ministry called the Ministry of

15 Defenders of the Herzegovina Neretva Canton?

16 A. I'm not very familiar with that, but -- there are various sorts of

17 organisations, but as to their names, I don't know.

18 Q. All right. Well, anyway, you don't dispute, do you, that in fact

19 now that you think about it, Domin Rajic was mobilised as a soldier in the

20 home guard of the Rama Brigade at the time he was killed; is that correct?

21 A. I don't know.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, I offer that document for

23 tender. Not on the basis that this witness has seen it, but on the basis

24 that it's an official document. Its of chain of custody we think can be

25 proved very thoroughly, and it was given to us by the Prosecutors, so I

Page 20

1 offer it on that basis.

2 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

3 MR. WEINER: No objection.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It is admitted into the evidence.

5 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm not sure if I offered the book or whether the

6 book was --

7 JUDGE LIU: No, I don't think so. It's been --

8 MR. MORRISSEY: It's been marked.

9 JUDGE LIU: -- marked, but you did not offer it. Maybe you could

10 save it until --

11 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Well, that's what I had in mind, Your

12 Honour. Very well. Thank you.

13 Q. I apologise that these questions have to go into some detail but

14 it's important we do it as thoroughly as we can.

15 Very well. The next house that I want to ask you about is marked

16 as number 3, and there were found the deceased Kata and Mato Ljubic; is

17 that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Now, Kata Ljubic was your godmother; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. She joined the HVO; isn't that correct?

22 A. She worked as a cook. She baked bread initially until we had the

23 possibility of obtaining real bread.

24 Q. Yes. But whatever capacity you say she was working in, whether it

25 be as cook or anything else, the fact is she did join the HVO, didn't she?

Page 21

1 Is that correct?

2 A. Well, if that's what they say. If that's a member, she was a

3 member. She didn't have a uniform. She didn't have a weapon. They'd

4 bring in a tonne of flour and they would have to bake the bread, all

5 elderly women. But Kata was there, and there were other women baking the

6 bread too. Ivka baked bread too.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Would -- would the witness just have regard to

8 that book.

9 Q. Would you mind just looking back at the book.


11 MR. MORRISSEY: 315. Thanks.

12 Q. All right you have -- do you still have your copy of the back

13 there, Mr. Zelenika?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Perhaps I'll -- I'll leave that with you because I'm going to ask

16 you various questions about that book so even when I'm not questioning I

17 don't mind if you keep possession of that book.

18 Now, on page 64 -- would you mind going to page 64.

19 A. Page 63.

20 Q. Well, I think it's --

21 A. Kata Ljubic. Is that right?

22 Q. That's right. Page --

23 A. Page 63.

24 Q. Well, we just want to make sure we've got the -- would you mind

25 just holding up the page that you've got in front of you so I can be sure

Page 22

1 as to whether I'm directing you wrongly. Would you mind just holding it

2 up so I can see it. Sorry. Well, yes, that's the page. Do you see

3 above --

4 A. I can see it.

5 Q. Do you see a picture of Kata Ljubic and above the photograph the

6 page number 65?

7 A. I can see it.

8 Q. All right. Now, I just want to ask you about the text there, Kata

9 Ljubic. I won't get to your read out the whole thing. But is it the fact

10 that that text says that at the outbreak of the home defending war Kata

11 immediately joins the HVO as does her husband Ivan. She works in the

12 kitchen and is famous for her "pogaca," which is a particular bread. Do

13 you see that section there?

14 A. Yes. The bread, that's what she did initially. But perhaps the

15 army knows when we started receiving already-baked bread. Because

16 initially the flour would arrive, and there were problems. When we

17 started receiving new bread Kata was no longer involved, but what it says

18 about her over there, no, I don't know.

19 Q. That's okay.

20 A. Her husband Ivan was a home guard, a member of the home guard.

21 Q. Well, look, I'll come to all that in just a moment. But at the

22 moment that -- the information that's contained in that passage there, in

23 that passage of text, is accurate information to your knowledge; is that

24 correct?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 23

1 Q. And that's information that you provided as --

2 A. But I don't know -- perhaps I wrote this, but I didn't write the

3 date up until which she was there because she was there at the beginning.

4 She helped us, and I thank her for that.

5 Q. Okay. Mr. Zelenika, can I just make it clear none of the

6 questions I'm asking are designed to insult or put any aspersions upon the

7 deceased, but I have to press you with these questions.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown Defence

9 Exhibit D1544. That is in the same category as the previous one. It's

10 another similar document to the one I just tendered.

11 Q. Mr. Zelenika, what's about to be shown to your is a very similar

12 document to the one I showed you about Domin Rajic. This is document

13 concerning HVO membership of Kata, and I just ask you to look at this, if

14 you don't mind, and I'll ask you similar questions to the ones I asked

15 concerning -- concerning Domin.

16 Q. Does it appear --

17 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry, Mr. Morrissey. That's will be MFI 317.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you. I'm grateful for that.

19 Q. All right. Do you have a document in front of you a certificate

20 about -- which is -- a document headed certificate about the circumstances

21 of the killing. Do you have that document?

22 A. Yes, I have that.

23 Q. Okay. And does that document say that -- that Kata Ljubic was a

24 member of the Rama Brigade from the 3rd of the 4th, 1992 until the 14th of

25 the 9th, 1993?

Page 24

1 A. That's what it says.

2 Q. Okay. And at the bottom does it say that Kata Ljubic was killed

3 by -- killed under the circumstances that during the attack of MOS forces

4 against Uzdol while carrying out the order on the Defence front line. Do

5 you see that section?

6 A. I can see it, but I don't know what it is. I don't know who wrote

7 such nonsense down here, and I don't know why this was requested.

8 Q. Well, it's just that you're here and I have to put these documents

9 to you.

10 First of all, have you ever seen this document before now?

11 A. No, I haven't.

12 Q. Okay. And secondly, you're familiar, though, with the -- with the

13 system of granting relief to the families of those killed in the war as

14 you've already indicated; is that correct?

15 A. I'm familiar with that, and there's -- there are a lot of people

16 who are receiving assistance, and there are others who don't receive any

17 assistance although they should be receiving such assistance. Those in

18 the HVO and the ABiH.

19 Q. Yes. That's okay.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, I offer that document for

21 tender as well, even though he hasn't seen it on the same basis as the

22 previous one.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 MR. WEINER: No objection.

25 JUDGE LIU: It is admitted into the evidence.

Page 25

1 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.

2 Q. And now I have some questions about the killings of Mato and Kata.

3 First of all, at the time did anyone tell you that they were an

4 eyewitness to the actual killing of those two people?

5 A. No one did. Below the house Kata was -- waved to us. She started

6 fleeing. She said, Flee Mato, run. She started running down towards the

7 church, towards her house.

8 Q. But who saw this take place to your knowledge?

9 A. Marko saw this, Marko who was there. He said Kata was there and

10 Ivka and Zora, and then Kata and Marko started fleeing. They said, Run,

11 they're shooting. She entered the house. That's why she didn't -- she

12 wasn't killed where they were killed. She entered the house from one side

13 and she was found on another side. She started fleeing towards the church

14 and that's where she was killed.

15 Q. When you refer to Marko, is that the same Marko who was present at

16 the other house that we were talking about before where Domin and Ivo --

17 A. Yes, Marko. Marko and Zora were at her house. Later the shooting

18 broke out. She fled to her house and they remained there.

19 Q. Yes. Very well. And -- now, you've mentioned that her son --

20 sorry, pardon me. I take that back.

21 Apart from Mato and Kata, who else lived at that house?

22 A. Ivan was there, too, the husband.

23 Q. All right. And was Ivan an HVO soldier?

24 A. Ivan was member of the home guard. He was a home guard at

25 Kransko Polje.

Page 26

1 Q. Yes, I understand. And was Ivan present at the time when the

2 killings took place or was he somewhere else?

3 A. He was at Kransko Polje that morning and then he followed us

4 there. He said, Kume, Kume, my house is on fire. He didn't even know

5 that people had been killed.

6 Q. Very well. Did you notice whether Mato had a gun or not when you

7 arrived?

8 A. No. The house was on fire. There was lots of black smoke all

9 over the place. There was a concrete slab just outside the entrance, and

10 he was over there so I couldn't see. There was so much smoke. There was

11 no clear line of sight. I don't know. But Mato didn't have one.

12 Q. When you say he didn't have one, did you mean he didn't have one

13 when you saw him or that he didn't own a gun?

14 A. No, he didn't have one. His son Ivan had been at Kransko Polje

15 that morning, and he later joined us, but they did not have any other

16 rifles in their house.

17 Q. Okay. I want to move on to the next house now, and this one is

18 at -- you've marked it as number 4. That is where Kata Perkovic was

19 killed. Are you aware of any eyewitness --

20 A. Kata Perkovic.

21 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... Are you aware of any

22 eyewitness to that killing?

23 A. Letter husband Stipo was there. Later he went to see his son in

24 later in Dubrovnik, and he died two or three years after she had died. He

25 was quite old actually. He was born in 1916. He died in Dubrovnik and

Page 27

1 later was buried in Uzdol. The village cemetery not in the centre of the

2 village.

3 Q. I understand that. Now, Stipo was present at the time of the

4 killing. Did he see the killing with his own eyes or was he taking

5 shelter in a cupboard somewhere.

6 A. He was there. It was an old house, two rooms. He was in the

7 other room. I've no idea how it was that they didn't kill him. He

8 just -- he was totally beside himself when I found him. He didn't even

9 realise what had happened.

10 Q. Were you saying that he didn't realise that Kata had been killed

11 yet or not?

12 A. He was scared to death. He didn't even see his wife. He walked

13 out in front of the house. There was a wooden bench there. He just sat

14 down right there.

15 Q. Very well. I now want to move towards the village of Zelenike and

16 take you to the -- to the death of Mara Grubesa.

17 Now, at that time when she -- when she died in the barn, her

18 daughter Janja was present; is that correct?

19 A. Janja was back home with her and the granny, Mara's mother, Milica

20 Zelic. She was over there in the same place as Ruza 100 metres to the

21 left. She's the mother-in-law but they didn't live together. She came

22 down to see her daughter. Milica made it, Janja made it, and they're in

23 Prozor now. But Milica died in Travnik. She was mentally ill, and she

24 died in a hospital.

25 Q. That's okay. How did she get away? Did she run away or was she

Page 28

1 found hiding at the house? And that's Milica I'm talking about here.

2 A. Milica probably one day she was in the house. And then Mara left

3 the house to release the livestock. Janja probably followed, but someone

4 called her name out, one of the soldiers, and when she realised that those

5 were no HVO soldiers, she started running. There's a plum tree, an

6 orchard further down the hill. Someone fired at her. She was wounded in

7 one of her hands.

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Janja just ran, paying no heed to her mother. She just ran as

10 fast as she could towards Prozor.

11 Q. We'll ask Janja questions about that in due course, and I

12 understand you weren't there.

13 But I do want to you ask this: At the time when you --

14 A. Yes. She knows that much better than I do.

15 Q. Certainly. Okay. But I just want to ask you: At the time when

16 you arrived and you spoke to Janja, she didn't --

17 A. I only saw Janja the next day. She'd escaped to Prozor and we

18 stuck around that day. So it was not until three or four days after that

19 I saw her.

20 Q. Just one second, please. Yes, okay. Well, I just -- the only

21 question I have for you about that topic is: What did -- what did Janja

22 tell you about her observations concerning her mother? Did she see her

23 mother go into the cowshed? Did she hear her mother in the cowshed? Did

24 she even know her mother was in the cowshed, or was she desperately

25 wanting to find out what had happened?

Page 29

1 A. She was on her way to release the stock from the cowshed and she

2 did. I'm not sure if their livestock survived. She cut them loose and

3 let them out. The cowshed was burnt to the ground there.

4 Q. Okay. Now, Mara Grubesa's house was Pavo; is that correct?

5 A. Pavo, yes. Pavo was also a home guard member at Kransko Polje,

6 alongside with Ivan and Franjo. He came with us.

7 Q. So Pavo was a person who had a weapon; correct?

8 A. Yes, but he was at Kransko Polje that morning, Franjo, and he and

9 others. Once we had passed them, they decided to join us and go back with

10 us to see if the rest were still alive.

11 Q. And Janja who survived was herself an HVO member; is that correct?

12 A. She was in our kitchen. She was a cook. She was there all the

13 time. Well, I mean, they took shifts, two or three a day, but she was one

14 of them.

15 Q. Yes, I understand that. But specifically speaking, she was a

16 member of the HVO, wasn't she, regardless of the duties that she

17 performed?

18 A. Well, I don't know exactly. They just helped out at the kitchen.

19 I'm not sure what exactly their official status was.

20 Q. Well, perhaps we could assist by going back to the book. If you

21 wouldn't mind just looking at page 56 of the book, the entry under Mara

22 Grubesa. There's a reference to Janja at the bottom of the -- in the last

23 couple of lines there.

24 A. I can see it.

25 Q. Okay. Do you see that reference there to Mara's daughter, Janja,

Page 30

1 the HVO chef? Do you see that?

2 A. Yes. A cook, HVO. Of course. I mean, she wasn't with the BH

3 army, that's for sure. She worked at the kitchen, as I said.

4 Q. That's okay. I understand that. All right. Before I go on to

5 the other houses, I've just got another question for you, a more general

6 one, and then I'm going to resume to those houses.

7 The people -- the commander, Mr. Prskalo who was the battalion

8 commander in the school, he must have been aware at all times that between

9 his command post and the front line there were villages or hamlets which

10 had a mixture of civilians and HVO soldiers living in them; is that

11 correct?

12 MR. WEINER: Objection, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 MR. WEINER: You're asking this witness to indicate what

15 Mr. Prskalo -- what was on Mr. Prskalo's mind.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, unless there is some basis for that, it's

17 purely speculation.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Your Honour. Thank you.

19 Q. It was well known to you who were a member of the HVO -- sorry,

20 I'll ask the question and then you can answer it.

21 It was well known to your as an HVO member that between the nerve

22 centre of the battalion, the battalion command and the front line, there

23 were villages there were filled with a mixture of civilians and soldiers;

24 is that correct?

25 A. They were soldiers who were staying with their parents in their

Page 31

1 homes. When they were off duty, they'd be at their homes.

2 Q. Yes. But when they stayed with their parents in their homes, they

3 were armed and in uniform, weren't they?

4 A. They were all the time. There was no reason to change. The

5 soldiers didn't wear civilian clothes at the time.

6 Q. I understand that. But in addition to that -- to the soldiers and

7 the civilians, there were also home guard members who were armed and

8 sometimes in uniform and sometimes not; is that correct?

9 A. The home guards wore a different kind of uniform. They weren't as

10 good. They looked a little uglier, but perhaps they were warmer than the

11 regular soldiers' uniforms.

12 Q. And sometimes it happened that civilians not in military uniform

13 at all would carry weapons when they were going out of doors to look after

14 their stock and to do their jobs; is that correct?

15 A. I don't know. I didn't see any of that.

16 Q. And as a person who participated in the military, you know that in

17 any offensive attack on a local level one of the targets of attackers is

18 going to be the headquarters of the local unit, and in this concrete case

19 any attack in your part of the front was probably going to involve an

20 attack on the school; correct?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Did you ever point out to Commander Prskalo or anyone else that by

23 having the front line arranged as it was he was placing the civilians as

24 well as the soldiers in grave danger of death in combat?

25 A. Well, I was a very low-ranking officer, and I can't say anything

Page 32

1 on behalf of the high-ranking officers. Besides, you had to obey their

2 orders.

3 Q. Of course you did, I understand that. But my question is: Did

4 you ever point it out to them that --

5 MR. WEINER: I'd object, Your Honour. Number one, that's outside

6 the scope of this person's knowledge, number one. This is an expert --

7 you're asking for an expert opinion. You're also asking technically for a

8 legal opinion because any soldier knows or should know the laws of war and

9 know what the difference between civilians and military targets and who

10 and what you can attack. So this is well outside the scope of this

11 witness's expertise and knowledge. And this is a crime base witness, not

12 a witness they should be asking questions of opinions for.

13 JUDGE LIU: I believe that this question is just a general

14 question, and the Defence will not ask any further questions concerning

15 any specific military expertise. This question is allowed.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I confirm that's right, that I won't

17 be asking him for any expert opinions.

18 Q. Very well. So the question was I understand that you were of a

19 lower rank and you had to obey orders, but did you ever point out that

20 danger to your superiors yourself?

21 A. No. That would have been out of place, and they wouldn't have

22 listened. Those were young people who did things their own way. What was

23 I supposed to tell them?

24 Q. I'm not criticising you about it, I'm asking you and you've begin

25 your answer. That's okay.

Page 33

1 I want to move on to the next house, and the next one is -- I'm

2 sorry.

3 JUDGE LIU: Maybe we could have a break since you are going to

4 another section.

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will take a break and we will resume at

7 quarter to 11.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

9 --- On resuming at 10.48 a.m.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

11 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Zelenika. I want to continue around

13 the -- the path that you took now, and I want to move to the deceased

14 Dragica Zelenika. Are you aware of any eyewitness to the killing of

15 Dragica?

16 A. No.

17 Q. The person Marko that you referred to who had escaped before, what

18 was Marko's full name?

19 A. Marko Glibo. Marko Glibo, an elderly man.

20 Q. I understand. Can you indicate how old Marko Glibo was at that

21 time approximately?

22 A. I think he was born in 1938, possibly 1939.

23 Q. I understand. Do you recall whether he was a person who wore

24 glasses or not?

25 A. No.

Page 34

1 Q. All right. Well, we'll proceed now -- we'll proceed now with

2 respect to Dragica.

3 Now, when you came to see the condition she was in, she had -- her

4 body had been significantly burnt; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. Yes. The house had burned down too. It appears that some

6 of the beams and roof tiles had crashed on top of her, and she was in a

7 very bad state when we found her.

8 Q. Yes. Did it appear to your that lying in the position that she

9 was when you saw her that her body must have been removed from the

10 immediate vicinity of the fire?

11 A. I can't say. I just passed by in a hurry on my way to join the

12 rest of the group. Her body was lying there black, and the house had

13 burned down.

14 Q. Yes. Did she have a son? Did she have number of sons?

15 A. Yes. Her husband had died before the war. He used to work as a

16 paramedic in Uzdol. He died before the war, and yes, she did have a

17 number of sons.

18 Q. Were any of those sons HVO members?

19 A. Yes. One was with the police, and the rest were with the HVO.

20 Q. Very well. Were any resident in Uzdol at this time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Which ones?

23 A. One or two. Ante, Mile was in Prozor. I'm really not sure. I

24 think Ante was resident. He was the youngest son.

25 Q. How old was Ante?

Page 35

1 A. 20 something, 25.

2 Q. Where was Ante at the time when these killings took place?

3 A. I don't know. He may have been at the front line. He may have

4 been back home. I can't say. Or perhaps he was off duty on that day.

5 Q. But it's very possible that he slept the night before in the house

6 with Dragica and was there when the shooting started; is that correct?

7 A. I don't know. I have no idea where he'd spent the night.

8 Q. Again I have a general question stepping outside of the individual

9 deceased. I'll come back to those, of course.

10 But you heard of a number of -- of HVO soldiers who were in

11 uniform and armed who fled from those villages. I'll give you some

12 examples. Ivka Stojanovic's son is one. Ivan Kovcalija is another. But

13 generally speaking, you were aware, weren't you, of that fact?

14 A. Yes. People fled. Fabjan Ratkic did. Janko fled. Even

15 Kovcalija survived. Janja survived too. There were some other women who

16 had fled. Andja Zelenika was a boy named Milan or Marko. He was Pero

17 Dzanko's son. He survived too, but I'm not sure.

18 Q. Very well. And it's quite obvious to you as well that a number of

19 the killed persons whose bodies you saw were killed outside of their

20 homes.

21 A. Some were inside and some were outside near their homes, 20, 30

22 metres, depending. Some were killed on the road.

23 Q. Yes. Very well. All right. Well, I'll return to the specifics

24 now.

25 I have a couple of questions about your own home. I'm not going

Page 36

1 to ask you about the specifics about what you saw there, but I'll limit

2 the questions to this: When you found your father, he was not in his bed;

3 is that correct?

4 A. Yes. He was on the floor, on the carpet.

5 Q. Yes. And you've indicated already that -- well, perhaps I should

6 ask you this: You indicated that your father and you also had been

7 hunters and members of a hunting club. I take it, therefore, that you had

8 firearms in the house.

9 A. Yes. Yes. Yes. The 16-millimetre rifle, two barrelled, double

10 barrelled.

11 Q. I see. Did you see that rifle on that day?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. I'll move on to the next --

14 A. We still have the rifle, but I don't remember having seen it on

15 that day.

16 Q. But it's come into your possession since that time; is that

17 correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Very well. And now I want to move on to the Ruza Zelic and the

20 two children there. Are you aware of any eyewitness to the killing of

21 those three?

22 A. No, no eyewitness. They were at the far end of the village. They

23 tried to run further down, and they were killed on the road.

24 Q. Very well.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please have on the ELMO made

Page 37

1 available to him the map that he drew which is actually still sitting

2 there on the ELMO right now.

3 Q. Now on the screen in front you there may be the map that you drew.

4 Do you see that?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. On that map at the very right-hand edge you've

7 indicated where the Zelic house is, and then nearby you've indicated where

8 the bodies of the three were found. Do you see that part?

9 A. Yes, I see that.

10 Q. Are you able to indicate whereabouts in relation to the bodies and

11 the house whereabouts Stipo's tracksuit pants were found?

12 A. Near the old house. There's a path past the house, and it was

13 five metres further down, this low black shrub there, and the tracksuit

14 pant, dark blue, was hanging off the shrub, and their bodies were found

15 300 or 400 metres further down the road. That's where they were killed.

16 Q. So just to be clear about that, if you went to the Zelic's -- if

17 you -- if you were in the Zelic's house and you walked out of their house

18 towards where the bodies were found, the Zelic children and mother, would

19 you pass by that pair of black -- that pair of -- I'm sorry, I've started

20 to speak and am stumbling away. I will start again.

21 If you position yourself in the Zelic's house and then walk in the

22 direction towards where the bodies were found, do you pass by in the

23 course of that walk the tracksuit pants?

24 A. No. First we reached her house, and while we were on that path --

25 it's not really a road, it's a sort of village path that tractors can use,

Page 38

1 from that path we saw Stipo's tracksuit. I knew it. And then as we

2 looked at the tracksuit, we descended. We -- there was a meadow to the

3 left. We descended to the path where the path forks off towards my house.

4 One road goes to Here and another to the school, and at the crossroads the

5 road forks off towards my house, and they were killed on that road that

6 goes towards my house. They were killed down below to the side.

7 Q. Okay. Now, just to proceed a little further with that, in

8 relation to those tracksuit pants, where were found the pieces of military

9 equipment that you've given evidence about? You remember there was talk

10 about a magazine for a gun and so on. How far from the tracksuit pants

11 were they?

12 A. They were found in the vicinity of the people who had been killed.

13 Twenty or 30 metres above them there's a sort of area, a sort of

14 borderline area. That's where this was found.

15 Q. Yes. I'm sorry. I must have misunderstood. So these items were

16 found near to the bodies, not near to the tracksuit pants. That the

17 position?

18 A. Near the bodies. Down below in the meadow, the thicket.

19 Q. Okay. Could I ask you to look at the book, please, at page 91 of

20 the book. It's the entry on Marija. Do you have that entry?

21 Okay. I won't get you to read the whole thing out there, but I

22 will ask you this: Does the entry there say that on the 14th of

23 September, at daybreak, while still asleep they are awakened by

24 machine-gun bursts and shots fired by Muslim soldiers, member of the BiH

25 army. Their mother Ruza, surrounded by Muslim soldiers, tosses a hand

Page 39

1 grenade out of her window, jumps with her children Marija and Stjepan out

2 of another window and runs towards the road looking for rescue. They run

3 for about 500 metres until they meet the road where the Muslim soldiers,

4 members of the BiH army, catch up with them, and then gives details of the

5 death.

6 Do you see that section?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Very well. Where does the information come from that was included

9 in that book and, in particular, that entry?

10 A. This was written later on. I don't know. Anyone might say that

11 she threw it or that the army did, that the little child was killed. I

12 don't know.

13 Q. And what you say to this Tribunal is that you didn't write that

14 entry yourself or that part of the entry yourself. Is that the fact?

15 A. Well, I wrote this part above, but perhaps something has been

16 amended, changed here, added, I don't know. There must have been an

17 autopsy, because when you see dead bodies, you can't really look at them

18 for very long, and it's a difficult situation. They're all rigid.

19 The book was written later on. People might have said various

20 things. Books are written after the events when they wanted to establish

21 a centre.

22 Q. Yes. I understand that, and -- but just going back to the hand

23 grenade issue, what you say is you don't know how that hand grenade story

24 got to be included in that book. Is that what you say?

25 A. Well, I don't know. The grenade was thrown as a whole in front of

Page 40

1 the window, but as to who threw the grenade, who knows.

2 Q. Very well. I now want to move on to the next series of deaths.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: And with respect to these, could the witness

4 please be shown the second of the maps. It is the one labelled B. The

5 previous one was P301, and I think the next one is P303, from memory.

6 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Mr. Morrissey. It's P303.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Could the witness be given that one on the

8 ELMO in the same way as he's had the last on the ELMO.

9 Q. We're now moving to the second of your three diagrams. The first

10 person I want to ask you about is Ante Stojanovic, Brko, and what you know

11 about that. Firstly with respect to Ante, were you aware or are you aware

12 of any eyewitness to the moment of his death?

13 A. No, I'm not. He was found dead ten or 20 metres from the house.

14 He wasn't even wearing any footwear. He was killed in the meadow.

15 Q. And at the time you saw him, did he have a weapon with him?

16 A. No. He was just wearing some sort of a jumper, and I think he had

17 thick socks on. He was in civilian clothes.

18 Q. Now, Anica Stojanovic.

19 A. Anica was killed in the vicinity of the house on the road. She

20 was wearing some sort of multicoloured dress. Her head was facing

21 downwards. That's what I can remember.

22 Q. Now, with respect to the death of Anica, are you aware of any

23 eyewitness who witnessed the moment of her death?

24 A. When she was killed, a son of hers saw her.

25 Q. What's his name?

Page 41

1 A. He was called Ivan Stojanovic, a small child. Ivan. There were

2 several of them. One of them was there. He survived, and I think that he

3 now lives in Zagreb.

4 Q. Very well. How old was Ivan at the time of this?

5 A. Perhaps 13 or 14 years old. I don't know. It was a young child.

6 I don't remember the year of his birth.

7 Q. Very well. You indicated at an earlier time that some young

8 boys -- some teenage boys had a role to play in the defence of the village

9 or in some -- having some function in that regard. What part, if any,

10 were young teenage boys given in the defence of the village to your

11 recollection?

12 A. Well, they weren't boys. I said that these soldiers, they were a

13 lot younger than we were. It was difficult for them to listen to us who

14 were older than they were. They were fearless youths, urchins. They

15 would say, If you're afraid, run to Prozor. Go on. They weren't

16 children. They were soldiers who had been members of the former JNA.

17 They were young, and he was a commander or deputy commander or something

18 like that. But as they say, they didn't pay much attention to people who

19 were older than they were.

20 Q. Yes. I understand what you say about that. Do you recall whether

21 Ivan was present on the day -- sorry, you've indicated that he was present

22 on the day that his mother was killed. He was in fact a member of the

23 HVO, wasn't he?

24 A. No. He was a child. He was young. He was a child. He wasn't a

25 member of the army. He was a boy living there with his mother. His

Page 42

1 brother Mato was an HVO soldier who was up in Borak that morning.

2 Q. Okay. How far away is Borak?

3 A. Borak is the first hill from Kriz between Here and Krstiste. Then

4 there's Borak. It's a hill between Kriz and Pale, and then you have

5 Krstiste and Bobari.

6 Q. Just so the Tribunal understands, how many metres -- approximately

7 how many metres away from Anica Stojanovic's house was her son Mato when

8 he was up at Borak? Is it a matter of 200 metres or 700 metres or 1.000

9 metres or how far away?

10 A. About 1.000 metres. The upper side of Borak is a kilometre and a

11 bit away.

12 Q. Was there any artillery of the HVO positioned at Borak?

13 A. No. That was in the vicinity of the army lines. I don't know.

14 Perhaps they would occasionally deploy something up there, but I don't

15 know.

16 Q. Very well. Are you aware of whether or not the young boy who

17 escaped, Ivan, whether he was armed?

18 A. No, he wasn't. He was a child.

19 Q. Okay. But he was a child living on a -- in a farmhouse in a rural

20 area, so I want to persist with the question. Did they have a hunting

21 weapon in their house?

22 A. I don't know. His father was in Austria. Only his sister had

23 remained and that brother Marko and his mother. I don't know. I don't

24 think they had a hunting rifle because Pero had -- Pero, the father, had

25 about working in Austria for 20 or 30 years. He was suffering from some

Page 43

1 sort of stress.

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. And Mato, after he'd been in the army, he survived. He married,

4 and he lives in Zagreb with his wife. I think he has a child. And the

5 little boy is now in Zagreb too. He's now a young man. Now he's 25

6 or 27. At the time he was 14 or 15 years old.

7 Q. Okay. But you don't rule out the possibility that the HVO brother

8 Mato had left a gun behind in the house in case anything went wrong or in

9 case an attack happened, do you?

10 A. He couldn't have left it there since he had to have a rifle at the

11 front line. And that morning he was in Borak.

12 Q. Okay. I now want to move on to the Ratkices that you've

13 indicated.

14 You indicated yesterday that the two Ratkices that you found were

15 found in the basement of a building --

16 A. In Blaz's house. His house burnt down. It was a big house, and

17 it burnt down to the ground. It's now been rebuilt.

18 Q. Yes, I understand that. And you clarified that very well for us

19 yesterday. But in terms of how the bodies were why positioned, it was

20 your perception when you first saw them that they'd been thrown down into

21 that basement; is that correct?

22 A. In the basement they didn't seem to be sitting or lying down. It

23 seemed as if they'd been thrown into the basement. This was a basement in

24 which they would place potatoes, et cetera.

25 Q. Yes. I understand. Very well. Now, with respect to Kata and -

Page 44

1 excuse me, I'm sorry - and her Martin, is it the fact that they had a son

2 who was present at the time when they were killed or at least in the

3 moments around that time?

4 A. They had a son Fabjan, who lived with them, but I don't know

5 whether Fabjan was in Borak or in the village that morning. I don't know

6 whether he was on leave or whether he was at the line. But Borak also

7 fell, and then they also fled from Borak too. As to whether he was at the

8 front line or in the house, I don't know. Mato, perhaps he descended from

9 Borak. Who knows? Martin, Blasko's son, I think that

10 he was there.

11 Q. That was going to be my next question, that some of these young

12 men you were at Borak, it's quite possible that they when Borak fell they

13 came back through the village.

14 A. While they were fleeing, they passed through the village, that's

15 possible. They had been at the line and then withdrew and passed through

16 the village. She withdrew with the elderly, because there was Blaz,

17 Martin's brother and Sofija they're still alive. But Martin and Kata

18 didn't pull through.

19 Q. I understand. And just in terms of how Blaz came to escape, it's

20 the fact that the young soldiers came back from the front line and

21 effectively collected Blaz and took him away to safety; is that correct?

22 A. They didn't collect them. He fled down to the fields below where

23 Stojanovic was working. Panic spread. Civilians had fled. There were

24 some other people who were saved. Mato must have returned and told them.

25 Martin and Kata, perhaps, thought that they could escape by going to the

Page 45

1 basement. They thought they could perhaps hide themselves there, but they

2 didn't survey of. Whereas Blasko and that brother and Sofija, they also

3 lived there in Kriz, that's Martin's brother.

4 Q. Yes. Look, I understand. It's very helpful for you to provide

5 that detail too, and if I could ask you this: At least as far as Kriz is

6 concerned, it appears from what you saw and what you were told that the

7 soldiers from Borak, the HVO soldiers from Borak, pulled back and went

8 through the village of Kriz in retreat, and on their way through the

9 civilians, many of the civilians panicked and started to run as well; is

10 that correct?

11 A. Some went to the village if they had their parents there. Some

12 soldiers fled down by the stream. They didn't pass through the village.

13 But if some of them had family members in the village, they perhaps went

14 to the village. But you couldn't even see them. They were fleeing,

15 shouting out. You wouldn't have time to speak to them, to ask them

16 whether their relatives were alive. And then two or three days later you

17 might see them in Prozor in a drunken state, and they would tell you

18 various stories. But some survived, others didn't.

19 Q. Yes. All right. Well, there's something I want to put to your

20 from the book as well now and ask for your comment again. Would you mind

21 going, please, to page 34 and 35, the entry on Kata Ratkic.

22 A. 35.

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. Kata Ratkic.

25 Q. That's correct. The part I'm interested in -- I won't get you to

Page 46

1 read the whole thing out, but the part I'm interested in is in the last

2 couple of sentences after describing the army's -- Muslim soldiers of the

3 BH army killed her in the brother's basement, did the -- does the text say

4 that their son who tries to -- tries to save and defend them is shot by

5 the soldiers, but they can't catch him. Effectively, he gets away.

6 A. That's the son Fabjan. There is no other son. But I don't know

7 whether he was wounded, whether it was in Borak or the village or below

8 the village. I don't know. But he still lives in the village now, and he

9 has something in his head, and the doctors can't take this out. He has

10 some shrapnel in his head and the doctors can't extract the shrapnel.

11 Someone must have thrown a grenade or done something like that.

12 Q. Yes. Well, are you aware of whether -- sorry, I'll just stick to

13 the first couple of facts first.

14 Is it within your knowledge that -- that Fabjan did in fact come

15 along and fight with the Bosnian army soldiers near to his mother and

16 father's house?

17 A. I don't know. I don't know where he fought, whether it was in

18 Borak or when withdrawing from Kriz. And I don't know which direction

19 they were fleeing in or where they went. And I don't know where Fabjan

20 fled. Perhaps it was along the stream too. Perhaps he didn't even pass

21 through the area where his parents lived, whereas Mato went to the

22 village.

23 Q. Yes. And just -- just -- Mato's family name, I'm sorry, just --

24 would you confirm that again, please?

25 A. Mato Ratkic. Ratkic. He fled. He told the others to flee. They

Page 47

1 fled to Blaz's cellar.

2 Q. Yes. Are you able to say whether at the time when Mato gave the

3 instruction or suggestion to flee whether or not there were already

4 buildings on fire in the neighbourhood?

5 A. Yes, in the upper village in Kriz. The stables at the top of the

6 hill, they were all on fire. There weren't many houses that had burnt

7 down below, only Mato's house, but up on the top of the hill there were

8 stables and they'd all burnt down. And the first houses, the houses

9 immediately in the vicinity of Borak, Serafina's and Franc Stojanovic's

10 houses, these houses were also affected.

11 Q. At the time when this flight from Kriz took place, I understand --

12 sorry, I'll ask the question a different way.

13 I understand that by the time you arrived it was full daylight.

14 Did the people tell you what the lighting conditions were like when they

15 fled from Kriz, when these incidents happened at Kriz? Had day dawned

16 yet or was it still dark?

17 A. It was about 6.00. They said in Kriz it was about 5.00. I don't

18 know. The people who were in Cer said 6.00. In Kriz they said 5.00 or

19 half past 5.00, but it was at daybreak.

20 Q. So is it fair to describe the lighting conditions as not pitch

21 black but still fairly dim, early in the morning?

22 A. Well, I don't know whether the visibility was good at the time

23 because some were sleeping. I'm surprised that my folk didn't let the

24 livestock out. My mother was sleeping. The livestock were set on fire.

25 But some people released the livestock.

Page 48

1 Q. Okay. Well, thank you for those answers. I'll press on now.

2 Now, you indicated that Franc and Serafina Stojanovic were seen,

3 but they were in a position where you were not able to go and inspect what

4 happened to them; is that correct?

5 A. No. They were stripped down to their underwear. I don't know who

6 did that. But there's Ruza Stojanovic and Cvita Stojanovic who were also

7 there. Their houses were in that area. Cvita and Ruza managed to save

8 themselves. They still live there. One of them lives where Franjo's

9 house is, and Ruza lives on the other side of the stream. They are alive.

10 Q. And did you know how they got away?

11 A. Cvita was captured near Zadruga in the direction of Rajici on the

12 road. They were where the old shop was. We used to call it the old shop.

13 That's where they were captured with Sofija Stojanovic and those children,

14 Jela Dzalto's children. A young man from Here captured them there and

15 released them later. They were saved. I don't know whether we gave some

16 money or not, but they were saved. They are both alive and the three

17 children are alive, and there's Sofija and her sister.

18 Q. Okay. Thank you for that. Could we move on now to the Prskalo

19 house. Now, we're moving really to the Rajici area, so perhaps if the

20 witness could be shown the third of those, which I think will be P305.

21 Very well. Now, the Prskalo house was the house owned by the

22 commander of the 3rd Battalion; is that correct?

23 A. His father owned the house, and he was his father's son. He was

24 the commander at the school building, and there was his command there,

25 some people. But that was not where he slept. He slept in the school.

Page 49

1 And there were some civilians from Bobari, too. Sofija and Jela and the

2 kids.

3 Q. Yes. And did some of those get away and escape?

4 A. Yes. Sofija now lives in Austria. She managed to save their

5 three children and their aunt. All the children and Stenko are now in

6 Austria, and Mijo, too, I think.

7 Q. Now, did Mr. Prskalo, the commander of the battalion, leave any

8 weapons there in the house so that they could defend themselves if an

9 attack came along, even when he wasn't there?

10 A. I don't know that. I never entered his house. I really can't

11 say. Not before the war and not during. I hadn't been in that house for

12 years.

13 Q. Yes. Now you recall Jela Dzalto. I'm sorry about the

14 pronunciation of that name, but Jela Dzalto.

15 A. Yes. She was in Bobari. Marko was there too and Zora, all of

16 them from Bobari. They got down to Uzdol and then to Rajici because they

17 were near the front line.

18 Q. Yes, okay. Now, as far as Jela goes, could I ask you to look,

19 please, at page 66 -- or could I just before -- I'll take you to the

20 book. I just want to ask you a general question first.

21 Are you aware of whether or not Jela Dzalto went into the house

22 and returned the fire of the Bosnian army soldiers from the house?

23 A. I don't know. Her sister told me that she used foul language.

24 She had forgotten something apparently. Her children and her sister came

25 as far as the cooperative, and they were captured there. They left them

Page 50

1 behind in the shop and told not to move. They were saved eventually, but

2 she went back to the house and the house burned down, and she burned down

3 inside the house. I can't tell you whether she'd been wounded previously.

4 Q. Are you aware of any eyewitnesses to her death?

5 A. I know about Sofija. I know about her children. And that's what

6 Sofija says, that she remained there. Her brother-in-law Josip Dzalto,

7 nicknamed Bikan, took the road to Donja Vas. He took his wife and

8 daughter along. He just sped past them and left them where they were.

9 One of them was killed, and the remaining three were saved and are now in

10 Austria.

11 Q. Yes. Could I just -- I was going to come to Josip Dzalto in a

12 minute, but since you've raised him, I'll ask you now. Where was Josip

13 Dzalto living on the morning when these troubles happened?

14 A. Josip Dzalto was living with his -- what's his name? His relative

15 Emil Piplica. It's near Budim, Mendesi, thereabouts. Budim is up on the

16 hill and Mendesi is further down the road. Jozo Kodzani [phoen], Emil

17 Piplica, Zora Mendes, Josip Mendes.

18 Q. And did Josip take his family and leave the village when these --

19 when these Bosnian army soldiers arrive?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And was he --

22 A. He had fled before this time because in Donja Vas he had a

23 son-in-law and his daughter was married to this man so he drove through

24 Donja Vas and on to Prozor and he left the others behind. I'm not sure

25 why he decided to do that. He just -- he drove this bus, and he just sped

Page 51

1 past them. He didn't have time to stop and -- and wait for them to board,

2 I suppose.

3 Q. Okay. Well, just stopping there for a moment. My next question

4 was, just to be clear: On -- did he leave the village -- whatever he'd

5 done in the past, did he leave the village on the morning of this tragedy,

6 that's being the 14th of September, 1993?

7 A. Yes, that morning. I'm not sure about the time. It may have been

8 2.00 or 3.00. He just escaped. He left Uzdol. He went to his daughter's

9 and her husband's place in Donja Vas. The distance is perhaps two or

10 three kilometres.

11 Q. Okay. Now, on the way as he drove out of his -- out of the

12 village of Uzdol, did he pass by some of the other people who were also

13 fleeing from the village?

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. Who was it that he passed by?

16 A. I don't know what time it was when he fled. All I'm saying is

17 Sofija, Jelena's sister, were there, and he left them behind. I'm not

18 sure what time he drove by.

19 Q. I understand you can't give a precise time but I'm just trying to

20 get a general approximate time. What time was it or what -- at

21 approximately what point was it when he passed Sofija by? Was it before

22 she'd been taken captive and put in the shop or was it after that?

23 A. Before. Before she was captured.

24 Q. Okay. I understand. So that whatever time it was, this Josip

25 drove past her while she was fleeing from her house but before she was

Page 52

1 captured by the soldiers.

2 A. It's this road. He had to drive by Jaka's field and house. His

3 wife was staying over at Prskalo's house, and he was with his relative.

4 Sofija knew that.

5 Q. Okay. Did he collect anyone from the Prskalo house?

6 A. No, no one. No one. He just collected his wife. I'm not sure if

7 he brought his children, and he drove straight to his son-in-law's place

8 where his daughter was, too, and he drove them to Prozor too. But not

9 through Uzdol. There's another road through Donja Vas and Kransko Polje.

10 Q. I've got some questions about this Prskalo. Was he an HVO

11 soldier?

12 Sorry, I take that back. That question was wrong. The questions

13 were about this Josip, not Prskalo. Josip, the man who was driving.

14 A. Yes. He was an HVO driver.

15 Q. Was he on duty that morning or not?

16 A. He would bring supplies in. He was off duty that night. There

17 were several drivers working for the HVO and he happened to be off duty on

18 that particular night.

19 Q. Was he in uniform that particular night when he was driving the

20 vehicle?

21 A. He had to be. All soldiers were in uniform. No one was allowed

22 to move about in civilian clothes. People didn't know each other. There

23 were soldiers there from Rama, from Orasti [phoen], from Ceko [phoen]. As

24 soon as they saw someone moving around in civilian clothes, it might have

25 occurred to them this person was a deserter. Everyone had to be in

Page 53

1 uniform.

2 Q. Yes. Was he armed on that morning?

3 A. I don't know that. I didn't see him on that day. I later heard

4 from his - what's her name? - wife's sister. We shouted, Stop, and he

5 said, I'll come back to fetch you, and he took the roundabout route

6 because they were shooting over there, so he took the other road, not the

7 one along the front line.

8 Q. What kind of vehicle was he driving?

9 A. Some sort of a van.

10 Q. I want to turn to the -- the other four people that were killed in

11 that area. This was Sima and Mara, and also nearby Stanko and Lucija

12 Rajic. With respect to these people, three of them were killed right next

13 to each other and Mara was killed quite nearby; is that correct?

14 A. Nearby, yeah.

15 Q. And Mara was an HVO member, wasn't she?

16 A. Mara helped us out at the beginning. She was a bit older, still

17 single.

18 Q. She was a -- she had a fighting spirit, though, didn't she, Mara?

19 A. I don't know what she had. I know she sang very nicely. She sang

20 with the choir.

21 Q. Yes. Well, let me just ask you to look at page 52 of the book,

22 please. That's the entry for Mara Rajic. I want to take you to the

23 passage where it describes -- commencing at the beginning of the war, that

24 part. I don't need to know all the background details. But does it say

25 here: "At the beginning of the war she volunteers, become a member of the

Page 54

1 HVO and works in the kitchen as chef. She is brave and proud of her

2 religion and nationality, often encouraging the younger kitchen girls and

3 even the soldiers themselves. She says to them, If you don't have enough

4 soldiers, get me a rifle and I'll take the next shift."

5 Do you see that passage?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Now, is that information accurate that I've just read out from the

8 book?

9 A. Yes. Mara was, was Mara, quite brave, but there were soldiers

10 there. She would be telling them what to eat and what not to eat. Some

11 didn't want to eat the beans and some didn't want to eat the soup, and

12 some didn't want to eat something else. They were difficult to handle.

13 But Mara wasn't there all the time. She was just there at the beginning,

14 but she was part of the war in a way.

15 Q. Yes. Okay.

16 A. Because she was supposed to receive the same thing as the other

17 one, because there were other women and each had to bake two or three

18 loaves of bread. They should get some sort of a certificate by way of

19 gratitude.

20 Q. Yes. Now, I just want to ask you some questions about the houses

21 from which these persons that we've just talked about tried to escape and

22 started to run. In respect to Sima and Mara, were there any HVO soldiers

23 who were living in that house at the time who got away?

24 A. No, not in their house. Only Mara was there with her mother.

25 That's across the way from Prskalo's house. She -- he died before the

Page 55

1 war. He was a handyman.

2 Q. Yes. I understand. At the Prskalo's house were there any HVO

3 soldiers living there or staying there at the time of these killings?

4 A. No. The one over there, Dzalto, and then Mara and Sima probably

5 went. There was a newer, better house over there, more modern. And

6 Stanko. Stanko's house was the first or -- the fourth one behind Jaka's

7 house. First Jaka's house, Ivana's house, and then Mija's house, and then

8 old Domin's house, and then Stanko's house is the last. Stanko and Lucija

9 came from that house. If they hadn't made it to the other house, God

10 knows what would have happened to them if they spent the night there or if

11 they'd gone to Prskalo's house. I have no idea what would have happened

12 to them.

13 Q. Okay. When you passed by those houses did you notice whether the

14 walls had been hit with machine-gun fire or bullet fire or indeed suffered

15 any marks of war, and I mean the external walls of the house? I'm

16 speaking of the houses in the Rajici area at the moment.

17 A. I didn't look. I only looked at the people. Prskalo's house was

18 on fire. Now, whether it was or not, I don't know. There was a lot of

19 smoke all around the house. The lower end of the road no houses were set

20 on fire. Only Stanko's cowshed was on fire, right next to his house.

21 Q. Very well. I understand those. Thank you for answering those

22 questions, and I understand it takes an effort to answer them.

23 I want to turn now to some issues about what happened afterwards.

24 Now, I want to ask you first of all were there any prisoners taken

25 from the Bosnian army by the HVO forces to your knowledge?

Page 56

1 A. When, do you mean? Yes, later. They got one of them. That was

2 later.

3 Q. No, no, I don't mean later. I mean on the morning.

4 A. You mean alive? No, no one was taken alive.

5 Q. Yes.

6 A. There was several soldiers of the BH army. They were given a

7 burial behind the school building in spot, and I think they've been moved

8 to Scipe since, but I can't say how many exactly. I think five or six of

9 them.

10 Q. That's okay.

11 A. Three people came. They exhumed the bodies and moved the bodies

12 to Scipe.

13 Q. I thank you. I understand. I just wanted to know whether you

14 were aware of any prisoners being taken. You say no. That's fine. We'll

15 move on.

16 Now, as to the surviving --

17 A. There were some dead bodies there. I don't know about the count.

18 I didn't look carefully. And some people came and took them to Scipe.

19 Not immediately. Some time went by.

20 Q. Now, were there -- were there 12 HVO soldiers who lost their lives

21 on that morning?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were some of those soldiers the crew of the tank that was

24 positioned at the school?

25 A. Yes, three, I think. They had positions at Prozor, so I saw some

Page 57

1 people I didn't know, and they came to me.

2 Q. Okay. Were some of the other -- of the other 12 HVO soldiers

3 killed young men who were killed during the fight in the school building

4 and around it?

5 A. I think it was there that what's his name was killed, Josip Maric,

6 at the school building, and the others were all other the place. Behind

7 the school building, outside the school building, all over Cer, because

8 what the hamlet is called.

9 Q. Apart from Ivo were any of the HVO soldiers that were killed,

10 killed in or near to the hamlets Kriz, Rajici, and Zelenike?

11 A. No, not there. Pero Kovcalija in Cer and Slavko Mendes over

12 there. Just down from Ivo's house. So it's all Cer.

13 Q. Now, as to Slavko Mendes, how close to his body did you see the

14 bodies of any Bosnian soldiers, any ABiH soldiers? I shouldn't have said

15 Bosnian. I'm sorry about that. Let me ask the question again.

16 How near to Slavko Mendes's body did you notice the bodies of any

17 soldiers from the Bosnian army?

18 A. There's a road there forking off into four different roads. He

19 was just off the road and the other one was maybe 15 metres into the

20 houses up the hill.

21 Q. Thank you. And -- all right. I've got some questions about what

22 happened to the survivors. I don't need to know each individual one. But

23 was there an organised way in which the survivors were taken to Prozor or

24 did they all make their own way there in various different ways?

25 A. All in their own different ways. The -- all of them walked or

Page 58

1 ran. No one had any means of transportation as far as I know. No

2 vehicles were available.

3 Q. Okay. Were you aware of whether they were all gathered together

4 at any point whilst in Prozor? I mean the survivors.

5 A. I don't know.

6 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

7 A. I was in Uzdol the whole day. Where they brought them, I don't

8 know. There were plenty of our people in Prozor. I had many relatives

9 there, but apart from that I really have no idea.

10 Q. Yes. Were you involved in the taking of statements about what

11 happened from any of those survivors?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. Someone sees me and someone sees another person.

15 Q. The video that was shown to your in part by the Prosecution

16 yesterday, do you recall who was the person holding the camera when that

17 video was taken?

18 A. I don't know what his name was. He wasn't one of ours. I think

19 he was from Rama.

20 Q. Okay. Apart from that video -- what time of day was that video

21 taken?

22 A. I don't know. Some followed us with a small camera and some were

23 recording, and maybe some other people were recording footage too. I

24 don't know. Everything was being videoed. I don't know. Until dusk.

25 Two cameras came, one small and one large. I don't know who recorded

Page 59

1 what. There was this guy who had a larger camera, but he only came later.

2 Q. Okay. Did the BBC come the following day? I mean, international

3 news coverage? Did a crew from there come --

4 A. I mean I don't know because I only came the next day. I'd been in

5 Prozor with the chief, the president, whatever. We had to be on our way

6 to Split doing something or other over there. I don't know.

7 Q. Okay. Do you recall when it was that the bodies of the HVO

8 soldiers, I mean the military people, the young men who were killed, do

9 you recall when it was that their bodies were removed from the Uzdol

10 village? Was it the same day or was it later?

11 A. I don't know exactly. I think later. First the civilians went to

12 Split because they buried the soldiers in Prozor immediately, and the

13 others were waiting over there for a week or even longer. It was a long

14 wait. It was difficult to cope. You knew they were dead, and you didn't

15 know whether they would bury them or not. It was a very difficult wait,

16 even if they were already dead.

17 Q. Who was in charge of the decision to leave the civilian deceased

18 where they were for more than a day?

19 A. Not the entire day. Some were dragged further down, and those

20 from Kriz could not be brought over, and some were buried the same day.

21 There weren't enough vehicles to go around, so they went to all the

22 different places, and eventually there was a lorry that took them to

23 Prozor. I don't know who brought that. Someone had ordered for them to

24 be taken to Split, the chief over there, the municipality president, Misko

25 Jozic. What do I know. The command. What's his name? The Crisis Staff.

Page 60

1 Q. Okay. Anyway, you had no involvement in yourself; is that

2 correct?

3 A. No. No. I had to provide information on their -- the years of

4 birth. Some people from Bugojno, the tank crew operators. We had no idea

5 about them. I don't know. I gave them whatever I had.

6 Q. Okay. Now, were you -- did you see a British journalist named

7 Kate Adie and her support crew escorted into the village of Uzdol by HVO

8 officers at any time?

9 A. I don't know. Someone came. I'm not sure about their names.

10 Beats me.

11 Q. Did you see any representative of the UN High Commissioner for

12 Refugees arrive in the village?

13 A. When? The same day?

14 Q. I mean --

15 A. No, no, I didn't.

16 Q. [Previous translation continues]... follow.

17 A. I don't know. I spent more time in Prozor. It was all the same

18 to me. All of my relatives had been killed. My sister had come over from

19 Usiga [phoen]. I was sort of half conscious for the following days. I

20 had no idea where I was. I may have gone to Uzdol as well, but I can't

21 remember now. Until the burial took place; it's all hazy to me. There

22 was some people attending the funeral, some relatives from Dubrovnik and

23 Split. I didn't even realise they were there attending a funeral. They

24 took pictures at the funeral. I simply failed to realise at the time that

25 they were around at all. I had no idea. It was all so hazy to me at the

Page 61

1 time.

2 Q. Well, I think you've maybe cut off a list of questions that I was

3 going to ask you.

4 Could I ask you a general question. Your memory of the incidents

5 of the following days is fairly incomplete because you were in a very

6 upset state. Is that a accurate statement?

7 A. I was devoid of will. I was -- my wife came over. She was half

8 falling down. I was sort of half conscious myself, and I had to take care

9 of my wife and family.

10 Q. I think in light of that, I'm not going to ask you some questions

11 that I had in mind for that period. And the last thing I want to ask you

12 about now - and this is the last questions in the cross-examination

13 altogether - concerns some combat reports that -- HVO combat reports.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: And I just ask that the witness please be shown

15 the first of these. There's a bundle of them, and this is -- sorry,

16 excuse me. This is Defence 65 ter number 238. It is uploaded on this

17 occasion, DD001200. And it's to be MFI 318, I believe.

18 Q. What's coming up on the screen now you may or may not have seen

19 these documents and I'll ask you that, but what they appear to be is

20 battle reports or combat reports concerning what happened at Uzdol, and

21 I'll just ask you some questions about it. If you can answer, do. If you

22 can't, tell us.

23 A. All right.

24 Q. Very well. Do you have in front of you now a document that

25 appears to be on the face of it a combat report dated 14th of September

Page 62

1 under the hand of Colonel Zeljko Siljeg?

2 A. I can see this.

3 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... 0700 hours? Do you see that?

4 Okay. Could I just ask you this first of all: You were familiar

5 with Colonel Siljeg; is that correct?

6 A. I have heard of him, but I did not know him personally. I never

7 had direct contact with him, but I had heard about Siljeg and someone

8 called Praljak. I don't think he was in our area, though.

9 Q. Can you tell us the name of the person who gave you the order to

10 get from Prozor quickly back to Uzdol to help out? Who gave you the order

11 to get moving?

12 A. You mean in the morning? No one issued the order, but when I

13 heard at that Uzdol was burning, I went there. And the others who were

14 there in Prozor that evening, we went there on our own. Ivica Rajic said

15 there's a relative of mine. He entered Prozor or was halfway there.

16 Q. All right. I just want to ask you whether or not you're able to

17 comment on this. First of all, did you ever see this order before

18 today -- or this combat report before today?

19 A. No, I've never seen it before. I've heard of this person, but I

20 do not know him personally.

21 Q. That's okay. As far as the information in it, though, is it

22 accurate that -- that there was, in fact, fierce fighting in Uzdol or that

23 the MOS -- could you just explain to the Tribunal what's the MOS?

24 A. The MOS, the Muslim armed forces, later the ABiH. You have the

25 HVO, the Croatian forces. Then there were the Serbian forces. And MOS, I

Page 63

1 suppose that was the Muslim armed forces initially, which later became the

2 ABiH, the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

3 Q. Yes. Did you ever hear of a man called Stjepan Siber, a Croat who

4 was a member of the -- a deputy commander of the Bosnian army?

5 A. Stjepan Siber. I haven't heard of him. I've heard with -- what

6 was his name? Divjak, Jovan Divjak, but I haven't heard of the other name

7 you mentioned.

8 Q. Very well. Did you hear of Stjepan Kljuc?

9 A. Yes, I have heard of him.

10 Q. He was a person of Croatian ethnicity involved in the Bosnian

11 government from the very start, wasn't he?

12 A. Well, he was in Sarajevo. I don't know what he did there. I've

13 seen him on television. He smoked a pipe.

14 Q. Okay. I'm sorry, I did distract on the MOS question. That was

15 really my fault. Let me just persist here.

16 To your knowledge, as this combat order reflects, there was in

17 fact heavy fighting in Uzdol between the time 6.00 in the morning and 7.00

18 in the morning; is that correct?

19 A. I don't know. I arrived there later. When I arrived there, the

20 soldiers were no longer there. The ABiH troops had withdrawn to Here. I

21 A. I don't know. I arrived there later. When I arrived there, the

22 soldiers were no longer there. The ABiH troops had withdrawn to Her. I

23 didn't see a single soldier.

24 Q. Look, I think rather than putting these orders -- this order you,

25 I'll just ask you some general questions about what you heard in

Page 64

1 particular about these matters.

2 First of all, you were told that before your arrival the HVO had

3 been the subject of a strong attack by the Bosnian army; is that correct?

4 A. They said that they would attack Crni Vrh. There was some sort of

5 line-up there. Our line was further away in the direction of Prozor and

6 Vakuf. They were expecting an attack up there.

7 Q. I understand that. But -- but after you left Prozor and came to

8 Uzdol, you were told there had been a fierce, strong attack made by the

9 Bosnian army; is that correct?

10 A. There was a fierce attack that they carried out. As to the extent

11 to which our people defended themselves around the school and in Cer, I

12 don't know.

13 Q. Okay. But you also heard by the time you got there that the

14 attack had been repulsed and that the -- that the attack, as far as you

15 could see, was not continuing on the area of the school in Cer; is that

16 correct?

17 A. They had all fled around the school and the vicinity. I don't

18 know whether they -- there were people who had been killed or whether they

19 had withdrawn themselves. Our people said that they had repulsed the

20 attack but perhaps the soldiers had returned to Sarajevo.

21 Q. Okay. Well, as well as those pieces of information, you heard

22 that -- from your soldiers that the HVO had used some very heavy artillery

23 shelling in order to get rid of the Bosnian soldiers from the hamlets. Is

24 that true?

25 A. I don't know about that. They had opened fire, but I don't know

Page 65

1 what sort of equipment they had. I heard the shooting, the shelling, but

2 the fighting wasn't really in the vicinity.

3 Q. I understand that. But those artillery weapons that the HVO had,

4 those artillery weapons were not sighted on or aimed at your hamlets, your

5 Uzdol hamlets. They were sighted on and aimed at ABiH positions and also

6 the village of Here; is that correct?

7 A. Well, probably. Our men wouldn't fire on their own people.

8 Q. Of course not. And so therefore when there was fighting -- well,

9 I won't use the word "fighting." Perhaps I'll put it another way. When

10 there was the presence of Bosnian soldiers -- Bosniak soldiers, Bosnian

11 soldiers, in the hamlets, the artillery weapons had to find their range

12 when they were shooting at those targets. Isn't that correct?

13 MS. CHANA: Your Honour --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that. That's

15 something for the command to decide.

16 MS. CHANA: I'm sorry, yes. I think the witness has answered.

17 The witness has been consistently asked about things he really does not

18 know about. I have held my council up to now, but now it's come to a

19 point, he has been asked about the war, the tactics, and the witness has

20 been very clear he wasn't there.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Well, Mr. Morrissey, I believe that maybe those

22 questions should be addressed to some other persons.

23 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I'm in a difficult position because

24 I was going to disagree with the objection but the answer that he gave

25 already has really squashed me and that is that he doesn't know.

Page 66


2 MR. MORRISSEY: So that puts an end to the controversy, Your

3 Honour. Yes. Okay.

4 Q. All right. Listen, I'm just going to -- as a matter of

5 thoroughness, I'm going to ask you to look at the documents which were on

6 the screen a minute ago. Those are the combat orders, there's three of

7 them, and this is the last of the series of questions and then I've

8 finished.

9 That first order that you looked at, the one with the time

10 at 7.00, you agree that as far as the facts are set out in that order, you

11 have no dispute with what's said in that order from your own knowledge.

12 Is that true?

13 A. I don't know who wrote this report. Commanders did. I have not

14 got the right to comment on it. I'll maintain a neutral position.

15 Q. Well, I'm not asking you to pick a fight with superiors past or

16 present, just to confirm what your experience was.

17 Would you look at the second one of those orders. There's one

18 over the page.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: The witness might need have to have the page

20 turned over for him now. There's another report at 8.00 in the morning,

21 0800 hours. And can we just turn over the page to that, please. It's

22 DD001205 in English, and it will be another page number in B/C/S or --

23 it's page 2 in B/C/S.

24 Q. Do you have that on the screen in front you, an interim report,

25 situation at 0800 hours? I'll just make sure everyone's got that on the

Page 67

1 screen before I start asking questions about that.

2 JUDGE LIU: We don't have that on the screen, I'm afraid.


4 Q. Just excuse me a moment, please, Mr. Zelenika.

5 A. I haven't seen this before.

6 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm told it's the second page in English as well,

7 Your Honours.

8 Q. Okay. Well, this document here you indicate you've never seen the

9 document. I understand that.

10 A. I don't know these people, Rado Nikolic, Draga Batinic, Niku

11 Kolak, Himzo Sehic. I don't know these people of theirs. I have never

12 heard of them.

13 Q. In any event, I'm not going to query you about them because it's

14 not particular they are talking an Uzdol in that particular section.

15 Maybe they are; maybe they're not. But it's the about the bottom part

16 that I'm interested in here. It says: "Having fighting is under way in

17 Uzdol. We are opening fire from all artillery and tank pieces. We are

18 sending reinforcements. The MOS are at 50 metres from the school. They

19 are encircling the hamlets of Kriz and Zelenike."

20 Now, what did you understand to be the position at 8.00 a.m.? Was

21 that the position, the one that is reported in this order here?

22 A. I don't know. They were using their artillery to shell. Heavy

23 artillery was being used to shell those positions. But they didn't help

24 at all because these people were all killed. It says 6.00 to 7.00, but

25 here it says up to 8.00. That's not correct.

Page 68

1 Q. I'm just not sure which you're looking at when you say it says

2 6.00 to 7.00. You may not be looking at the same page.

3 A. I can see a report with the situation. It's here.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Interim report, an interim report with the situation at 0800 --

6 Q. Yes.

7 A. -- hours.

8 Q. Yes, it's the same I'm looking at too. Okay. Well, you see that

9 it says there that: We're opening fire from artillery and tank poises.

10 Sending in reinforcements, and the MOS are 50 metres from the school.

11 What I'm asking you is: Were you there at 8.00 and can you

12 confirm that that's the fact or can you not comment?

13 A. It says "shelled," but I don't know where, because the people who

14 died, the Bosniak, et cetera, they didn't -- they weren't killed in Uzdol.

15 I don't know where else there was fighting. It says Citluk up here.

16 These people weren't in Uzdol.

17 Q. Very well. We'll turn over to the page to the next one, please,

18 and this is a situation report, interim report, situation at 1000 hours.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: This will be page 4 in English. It's the third

20 page in Bosnian and the fourth in English, Your Honours.

21 Q. Okay. Do you have that on the screen in front of you now?

22 A. Yes, I can see it.

23 Q. Okay. Well, I'll ask you the question as always first of all:

24 Have you seen this document before?

25 A. No, I've never seen it before.

Page 69

1 Q. Okay. As to the material --

2 A. It has to do with Doljani, Kucani. Our lines weren't there. I

3 haven't seen any of these documents. I haven't seen the first one, the

4 second one, or the third one.

5 Q. I'm not exactly concerned about the Kucani, Slatina and Doljani

6 sector. What I'm concerned about was the report at the top of the first

7 paragraph where it says: "In the Uzdol sector fighting is still under

8 way. The MOS stormed into parts of Kriz and Zelenike hamlets. Uzdol was

9 under a threat of becoming completely surrounded. After the introduction

10 of fresh troops the MOS attack subsided in strength."

11 Do you see that section?

12 A. Yes, I can see it. It says up to 1000 hours, and I know there

13 were people who had been killed in the house, and I saw other people who

14 had been killed at the time. There was no fighting. I had seen this --

15 I'd seen my family dead.

16 Q. Let me just ask you a question about times. You've indicated that

17 you -- you left Uzdol -- left Prozor at a certain time and arrived in

18 Uzdol at a particular time. Do you think it's possible that your times

19 might be a little bit wrong, that in fact you might have arrived a bit

20 later in the morning or not?

21 A. No, I didn't arrive later. We left early in the morning. We went

22 on foot for part of the way and we used a vehicle for another part, but

23 when we arrived there there was no more shooting, no more fighting. These

24 men had withdrawn. There was some shelling in the hills. They would

25 shell from up above occasionally. But I certainly arrived there by 10.00.

Page 70

1 I certainly arrived at my house by 10.00 at the latest, and I arrived in

2 the village even earlier. I can't say how much time I spent in various

3 places. I was running. I wanted to know whether my family members were

4 still alive. You couldn't stay with others and remain there crying for an

5 hour or two.

6 Q. Of course. Look, I understand and I'm not going to press you for

7 questions about that.

8 And my final question on that topic is: Whatever the times might

9 be, you can say that you had begun to find the killed people well and

10 truly by 10.00 in the morning; is that correct? And even possibly --

11 A. By 10.00 and perhaps even earlier.

12 Q. Okay. I understand that.

13 Okay. I just want you to look at the fine one here. I anticipate

14 your answer might be that you haven't seen it, but I just want you to look

15 anyway.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown the fourth

17 report. Page 6 in English, page 4 --

18 Q. This is a regular combat report without a particular time attached

19 to it. Have you seen this document before?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Very well. Very well. Thank you.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I offer those documents for tender.

23 It might be that they'll have to be tendered through another witness, but

24 in any event I'm still going to offer them at this stage.

25 JUDGE LIU: Any objections, Ms. Chana?

Page 71

1 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, if I can just have a moment to look at

2 this last document before I reply to that. Thank you.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We may save it until a later stage.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Certainly, Your Honour. That's okay. I don't

5 have to do anything else with it.

6 Very well. Now, there are two things I've forgotten to ask and

7 then I've finish. Would you just excuse me a moment, please.

8 [Defence counsel confer]

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Oh, yes. Sorry. Pardon me. Yes. Very well,

10 thanks.

11 Q. Luca and Janja Zelenika, I simply neglected to ask you about them

12 altogether and I'm sorry about that. Were there any eyewitnesses to the

13 killing of Luca and Janja Zelenika?

14 A. No. There's no one, but Ivka Stojanovic survived. But there are

15 no eyewitnesses. They're both dead in the vicinity of the house.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. Above and below the house.

18 Q. I'm sorry, I cut you off there. Was there any person living with

19 them at the time of their deaths?

20 A. There was the bride Doma living with Luca, and she survived. She

21 managed to run to the shop, the old shop and to Prozor. But the old

22 woman was born in 1906, she was killed. But Janja lived in her house.

23 Behind her house. Luca was Janja's aunt.

24 Q. What was the --

25 A. And Doma is now in Djakovo.

Page 72

1 Q. Could you just state for the record Doma's full name, please?

2 A. Doma Zelenika.

3 Q. Very well. And did you yourself see and speak to Doma on the day

4 of the killings?

5 A. No. She ran away. She fled, and I didn't even meet her. We were

6 in uniforms. They would hide from us. When they fled in the direction of

7 Prozor, they even avoided us. They didn't know who was who. I didn't see

8 her on that day.

9 Q. Now, how many people in the village had the name Ivka Rajic at

10 that time?

11 A. Two. There was a Mirka who had suffered a stroke, Mirka Rajic.

12 Doma's wife.

13 Q. I didn't I think I pronounced that very clearly. It was Ivka, the

14 name Ivka Rajic.

15 A. Ivka. Ivka Rajic. Both Ivkas.

16 Q. There were two people with that name; correct?

17 A. Two people with that name. One had the maiden name Mendes and the

18 other's maiden number was Blazevic. The younger one who was Doma's wife.

19 Blazevic I think her name was.

20 Q. All right. Were each of them killed or did one of them survive?

21 A. They were both killed. The elderly woman suffered a stroke and

22 she couldn't walk. She had suffered a stroke before the war.

23 Q. Very well. Thank you very much for your patience in answering my

24 questions over a long period.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Those are the questions.

Page 73

1 JUDGE LIU: We will take a break before the re-examination by the

2 Prosecution, and then we will resume at 1.00.

3 --- Recess taken at 12.25 p.m.

4 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Ms. Chana. Any redirect examination?

6 MS. CHANA: Yes, thank you, Your Honours.

7 Sorry. Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Re-examined by Ms. Chana:

9 Q. Mr. Zelenika, I will be asking you a few questions with your

10 permission.

11 I would like, first of all, to ask you about this book that the

12 Defence showed you this morning. Could you please tell us, firstly, whose

13 idea was it to write this book?

14 A. I can't say whose idea it was. The parish priest came to see me,

15 told me that a memorial centre would be built and that a book would be a

16 good idea to raise some money for the monument to be erected, funds to be

17 raised by the -- by selling the book.

18 Q. So it was the parish priest which approached you and not you who

19 approached him?

20 A. He approached me to give him a hand with that. He published the

21 book, not me. I know about people from my area, about when they were born

22 and where, and he wanted these data. I have no idea how the book

23 eventually came to be published.

24 Q. And what did he say your contribution was to be to the book?

25 A. He said I could give him a hand with the date of birth and places

Page 74

1 of birth in relation to those persons. He said that he would get the book

2 printed. I'm not sure how many copies he mentioned. I'm not sure how

3 many he sold, for that matter, but the memorial centre was eventually

4 built. That's all I know.

5 Q. Now, I'll get into the details of a little later, but for now

6 could you please go to the first page where there are all the people who

7 were involved in this book. It's not translated on the first page. Where

8 it says the publisher is John the Baptist Parish, Uzdol.

9 Are you with me, Mr. Zelenika?

10 A. Yes. Yes, I can see that.

11 Q. And who was the responsible person, does it say. Is this a direct

12 translation from it?

13 A. Published by Don Milenko Dzalto, parish priest, St. John the

14 Baptist church, year 2000.

15 A lot had been forgotten by this time. Those dead bodies had been

16 lying in Prozor for nine years. There was no permission to move the

17 bodies. It was only later that the bodies were eventually moved.

18 Q. And then it says text is yourself. Is that correct?

19 A. Yes. He wanted to put my name there because I had helped him, so

20 I wouldn't take umbrage for not being included and not having my name

21 published. He said, I put your name right there because you wrote the

22 write-ups, and you can put the other one's name right there, too, because

23 he proof-read the write-ups. And he put someone else's name there, too,

24 Luksic -- Vuksic.

25 Q. And the content editor was Gusto Vlajcic. Sorry about the

Page 75

1 pronunciation.

2 A. Something to the effect that he entered certain corrections just

3 in case I made errors. Improvements in terms of style in one word. He

4 could write better than I could, and this proof-reader was probably

5 somebody who had an even higher level of education. You need to have a

6 higher level of education if you want to proof-read books, don't you?

7 Q. Absolutely. And then there was design and print, a man called

8 Muller from Sarajevo.

9 Now, before I go to your part in this, could you tell us whether

10 there was a second printing of this book or was there just one print?

11 A. I think there was another. Some persons had been left out, so in

12 order to include everyone, there was another edition. They had no

13 information in relation to certain soldiers, and once this information was

14 obtained, they published more. But I -- I didn't do any work for the next

15 edition of this book.

16 Q. Now, in the text, who provided the details of the cause of death,

17 et cetera, some of the details which appears in the text? Was that yours?

18 A. Some of it was mine, and some of it was written by the other

19 people. I'm not sure how they went about that. I provided most of the

20 personal information, year of birth, that sort of thing, where people

21 resided and what they did for a living.

22 Q. That would be personal data. The personal data.

23 A. Yes, personal data, precisely.

24 Q. I'll just give -- go through a couple of examples that were shown

25 to your, I'll go to Stjepan's. I'm trying to see the number. It's at

Page 76

1 page 91. I think it's 91.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, Stjepan, I didn't go to Stjepan, but

3 he's on page 94-5, if that assists.


5 Q. Yes. Now, Stjepan Zelic on page 95. Are you there with me?

6 A. Not quite yet. 1995, yes.

7 Q. If you look at the description page, there is a description about

8 how Stjepan died, and I go to the second paragraph towards the end, the

9 last five lines or so. It says: "Stjepan" --

10 A. I can see that.

11 Q. "Stjepan ran towards the road with some soldiers chasing him and

12 others waiting for them. So soldiers seized little Stjepan and cut his

13 throat with a knife and mowed down his mother," et cetera.

14 Now, when you observed Stjepan, what kind of wounds did you

15 observe on Stjepan?

16 A. Not the throat. I think there was a bullet hole on his head and

17 there was something behind his ear, an abrasion possibly caused by a

18 bullet. A cut behind one ear and a bullet hole in his head.

19 Q. So that's not a correct description, is it, as it's reflected in

20 your book -- or this book?

21 A. Here it says he was captured, and it is not known whether he was

22 killed by a rifle. Was this thing about a knife being used and his throat

23 being slit, I'm not sure. I think he was killed by a rifle. He had some

24 sort of a sweater on and his underpants. This was written seven years

25 after the event.

Page 77

1 Q. Did you put that detail in yourself? Was that your own

2 observation?

3 A. I don't know. I did realise there were changes here to what I had

4 originally written. I have no idea who translated my write-ups. I'm not

5 sure if it's correct or not.

6 Q. Don't look at the translation, but -- that's not the true

7 position, is it? So was that your text? That's the question.

8 A. Part of it is and a part of it isn't. When I saw Stjepan, it was

9 all different. He had a bullet hole in his head, and there was a cut

10 behind one of his ears. Whether it was caused by an object or by a burst

11 of fire, I really can't say.

12 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, I would like to show an autopsy, P312.

13 This is an autopsy report of -- sorry, Your Honours. 65 ter, 137.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I think it better be explained how

15 that autopsy report arises out of cross-examination; and secondly, how

16 this witness can be validly shown a -- I don't mind him being shown the

17 cause of death -- I'm sorry, the death certificates because he was the

18 official who produced those, but an autopsy report is a pretty expert sort

19 of thing, so I'm not sure this witness ought to be asked about autopsy

20 reports.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, Ms. Chana I, are you going impeach this witness?

22 MS. CHANA: No, Your Honour. In fact, he's very consistent that

23 he did not -- he did not say that his throat was sliced. It was not part

24 of his text, and I want to show the autopsy, just mark it for

25 identification. When the coroner comes he will no doubt produce this

Page 78

1 exhibit to show what the cause of death, which was a bullet wound.

2 JUDGE LIU: So I believe there is no need for you to show that

3 report at all since you are not going to impeach the witness on that very

4 point.

5 MS. CHANA: No, no, Your Honour. There is no intention whatsoever

6 to impeach this witness.


8 MS. CHANA: As Your Honour pleases. I'll move along.

9 Q. Now, I want to show you page for Ruza Zelic. Page 60. Page 60,

10 Your Honour. Thank you, counsel.

11 Now, counsel for the Defence showed you this particular text of

12 Ruza Zelic.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And it talks about hand grenades. Do you remember that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is this your text? Is this what you wrote yourself?

17 A. To a certain extent. Some details concerning the military matters

18 have been changed. I'm not sure who changed it.

19 Q. So there were others who contributed to the text. Would that be

20 an accurate statement?

21 A. Yes, there were others who added things later on. It was not

22 written all at once. I wrote my contribution within a space of two or

23 three days by hand. They took it away. There were soldiers there in this

24 book that I didn't know. They wanted their photographs. And some

25 descriptions were made of people who were not from my area. Therefore, I

Page 79

1 have no idea who added the other details later on. As for their personal

2 information, this is something that I wrote.

3 Q. So when you said you didn't know anything about hand grenades

4 being thrown by this particular witness, you were being truthful to this

5 Court, were you not?

6 A. Yes, absolutely truthful. There was no way I could see it. The

7 woman had got away quite far from where I was. There was no way I could

8 have seen if she had thrown a hand grenade or not, and her body was found

9 dead 500 metres further down the road.

10 Q. Right. Now, I'd like to ask you about this matter of assistance

11 which were given to some people in the village. What was the criteria for

12 assistance to be given?

13 A. It was so that the soldiers could have enough food, but there was

14 civilians and children in the village who didn't have enough food. We

15 were given bread, canned meat, cold cuts, that sort of thing. When we

16 came to Prozor they would lend us a TAM truck once in two or three months

17 to transport the supplies back to our village. Beans, flour, whatever

18 they happened to have in stock. They wouldn't give it to us very often,

19 but every now and then they did.

20 Q. I think I didn't put my question to your clearly enough to you. I

21 mean after the war, financial assistance given.

22 A. After the war, I don't know. Those who lived alone with no income

23 received social assistance. Every three months they would receive

24 40 German marks, those without an income. It was a social fund for those

25 who don't have a job, for the elderly, disabled people, that sort of

Page 80

1 thing. I'm not sure if it still works like that.

2 Q. What about military people, those who were in the HVO and served

3 in the HVO?

4 A. Those who served in the HVO are now gone. Those who have a job

5 are fine. Those who don't, don't. Those who are retired and receiving a

6 pension, maybe some others, got certificates from their doctors. Those

7 whose parents had been killed may still be receiving compensation, but the

8 civilians victims have no privileges and no compensation coming their way.

9 Q. And for the military, did they have to have certificates before

10 they were given financial aid?

11 A. Yes. They needed some proof as to how long they had served in the

12 army, and then wherever they were wounded, the relevant local command

13 would issue a certificate. If they were killed, one of their parents was

14 supposed to bring a death certificate. The committee requested about ten

15 or 15 different documents to be brought.

16 If they had their parents still alive, they would receive less

17 money than if the wife and children were still alive. That was after the

18 war, and I have no idea who provides all this assistance. Maybe it's one

19 of the veterans associations.

20 Q. It was essential to have a certificate, and you were shown the

21 MFI 316 by the Defence. If you could look at it again, please. This is

22 in respect of Mr. Domin Rajic. It has come up on your screen again,

23 Mr. Zelenika.

24 Now, when you were shown this document, you said there was

25 something you wanted to explain. What was that?

Page 81

1 A. Well, everyone should have it then. Why didn't he have it? He

2 couldn't have received assistance if he had died on the 14th of

3 September. But his son Stipo who lives in Zagreb, and he's studying to

4 become a dentist, maybe he needed something. I don't know. Why would he

5 be receiving assistance if he was killed on the 14th of September, 1993?

6 He has only one son who is in Zagreb, and he studying to become a dentist

7 or perhaps has already completed his studies. I am not sure why he was

8 given anything at all. Or Kata Ljubic for that matter. She has a son in

9 Zagreb studying theology. She never asked for anything, for her household

10 or anything like that. I have no idea, the municipality, whether they

11 gave any form of assistance. I really can't say.

12 Q. Do you say that they should not have got it? Why do you say that?

13 A. This was issued in 1993, the 27th of November. Assistance to a

14 dead man. How can someone who is dead possibly receive assistance? This

15 was issued later on, the 27th of November, and they were killed on the

16 14th of September. Must be something about their children over in Zagreb,

17 the municipality helping them with their expenses, travel expenses, that

18 sort of thing. Someone in the brigade would probably know about these

19 things. It was probably some sort of discount or -- or reduced fees for

20 accommodation over in Zagreb because their parents were killed.

21 Q. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Zelenika. Now, I want to ask you to look at

22 MFI 317. And this is in respect of Kata Ljubic. This is another

23 certificate that were shown.

24 A. That's what I'm saying. It's not the same, is it.

25 Q. No, it's another one.

Page 82

1 A. This is on the 9th of May, 1996. So there you have it. She died

2 in 1993, and this is much later on. If this is by way of assistance, then

3 it can't be for her. It's probably one of her children who was supposed

4 to be the beneficiary. It can't be her. It must be someone else.

5 Q. That's fine. First of all, can you look at the first? It says

6 HVO unit that she belonged to was the 42nd Home Guard Battalion of the

7 Rama Brigade. Was the home guard part of the Rama Brigade?

8 A. We were all called the 42nd Home Guard. This was no professional

9 unit. The professional unit was the 4th Split Unit, those units over in

10 Croatia, and we were the so-called home guard, all of us. I'm not sure

11 what the exact term was. The professional units were over in the Republic

12 of Croatia. We weren't out to conquer anything. We just wanted to hold

13 onto our lines of defence, and regrettably we failed.

14 Q. Yes. And when it talks about the circumstances of her death, it

15 says: It was during the attack of MOS forces against Uzdol while, and it

16 says there, carrying out the order on the defence front line.

17 Now, to your knowledge is this an accurate position? Did she die

18 on the front line?

19 A. Yes. On the line. It's not the front line. She died on the way

20 from her house to Domin's house. She was running from those people

21 pursuing her. I'm not sure who wrote this. Someone was probably looking

22 for something.

23 Q. Now, you also said when you were being cross examined by the

24 Defence that some people received assistance and others did not receive

25 what they should be.

Page 83

1 A. Domin, Kata, Mara should have got it and all the others. But

2 there's no one to request that they be given compensation or assistance.

3 I don't know. Why should she be requesting compensation if all she ever

4 did was bake several dozens of loaves of bread? What should soldiers be

5 given then?

6 Q. But it was important to claim that you were a member of the HVO

7 before you claimed assistance, was it not?

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Just a moment. I have an objection to raise

9 there.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

11 MR. MORRISSEY: I don't know if it's being advanced now that these

12 claims are somehow false claims. What we have is the letters that have

13 been tendered without objection indicating that these people were members

14 of the HVO.

15 Now, this witness can be asked whether he knew whether they were

16 members of the HVO or not. That's fine. That arises out of

17 cross-examination. But it's not legitimate to ask the questions that are

18 now being asked, you know, in a leading form --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: So I object, Your Honour.

21 And if you look at the -- at the -- I think -- anyway, my

22 objection might have been overwhelmed by events here, by what the witness

23 said, but I do object to that line of questions.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe the witness has already answered that

25 question.

Page 84

1 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour, but could I -- could I ask the

2 witness whether he thought they were a member of the HVO?

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes.


5 Q. Mr. Zelenika, was Kata a member of the HVO?

6 A. She was a member, yes. I did tell you right at the outset she was

7 there. She was helping us. I'm not sure what her official position was.

8 I don't know. But not for as long as it claims here in 1993.

9 Q. To your knowledge, were families ever provided such documents as a

10 favour for entitlements?

11 A. I don't know. I've never seen these certificates before.

12 MS. CHANA: Give me a moment, please, Your Honour.

13 Q. Lastly, Mr. Zelenika, you were not an eyewitness to any of the

14 events in Uzdol on that morning, on the 14th of September, having arrived

15 there at 10.00 in the morning after everything had -- everything was over.

16 Is that a correct position?

17 A. Everything was over. They were all dead. I saw them personally.

18 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Zelenika.

19 MS. CHANA: That's all, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Any questions from Judges? Judge

21 El Mahdi.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: Thank you, Mr. President.

23 Questioned by the Court:

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Witness, I'd like to discuss a

25 few details firstly. On the 14th in the morning, on the 14th of

Page 85

1 September, when you set off in the direction of Uzdol from Prozor, at what

2 time did you say that you set off?

3 A. Well, I can't tell you when exactly. When we heard in Prozor that

4 Uzdol was burning, we then got up, checked to see whether there was enough

5 fuel in the TAM vehicle and set off in the direction of Prozor. I don't

6 know when it was exactly, but we drove for about seven or eight kilometres

7 in the TAM vehicle and then we carried on on foot. We took a short route

8 to continue there on foot.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. How long did that take you

10 approximately?

11 A. It's a dirt road. You drive for about half an hour, perhaps a

12 little more, and then there's a hill. You can't proceed rapidly. You

13 don't know whether the army troops or the HVO are there. There's a

14 plateau up there, whereas we're down below. When we reached that point,

15 everyone was dead. Perhaps we got there by 8.00 or 8.30 at the latest.

16 Perhaps we reached the first people there near the school.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] 8.00 or 8.30. What was the

18 weather like? Was it raining?

19 A. No, it wasn't raining. At the time it was dry.

20 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. You went to the

21 building that we've been calling the school directly?

22 A. No. First I saw Pero Kovcalija. Then I saw a soldier, a MOS

23 soldier, an army soldier, and then Slavko Mendes and then I headed towards

24 my house. I didn't head towards the school. The school is the last

25 building I went to. When I returned from Kriz and Rajici, it was only at

Page 86

1 that point that I went to the school.

2 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Before you arrived in Uzdol you

3 met a child on the road who told you --

4 A. Yes, I did.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Who said that they had killed his

6 mother?

7 A. Yes, that's correct. I met Ivan Stojanovic near the village

8 called Perici, halfway between Uzdol and Prozor.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And he told you the name of the

10 person who had killed his mother?

11 A. He said, My mother is dead. They have killed my mother. He said,

12 Sabo from Here has killed my mother.

13 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Saban?

14 A. Yes. Later he died. He was a construction worker and he fell off

15 a building and died. He didn't die in the course of the war.

16 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Was he a member of the military?

17 A. He was an HVO soldier.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And how is it that the child knew

19 him?

20 A. Well, he was near Here, the village of Here. Here and Kriz are

21 not very far. Perhaps two, two and a half kilometres away. And then he

22 went down to that shop. You would go there on foot. You wouldn't take

23 the road to go around. And he would go to Uzdol. All the children went

24 to school together in Uzdol, Croatian children and Bosniak children.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But the child told you that

Page 87

1 the person who had allegedly killed his mother was in uniform; is that

2 correct?

3 A. Well, naturally. It was a soldier. He was wearing a military

4 uniform on that day.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. When you went to the

6 school you met the cameraman there.

7 A. Well, there was someone there, but the troops had already

8 assembled there. There was the cameraman. So it was hard to distinguish

9 everyone. You'd look at the dead bodies and the other people. A mass of

10 troops and civilians were assembled there. I can't remember things

11 exactly. There was someone with a camera, but I don't know who he was.

12 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] I'm referring to the person who

13 accompanied you later to shoot the scene of the incidents.

14 A. Yes.

15 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Which organisation was he a

16 member of or which institution? Was he a member of --

17 A. I don't know. I didn't know him.

18 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Very well. Do you remember

19 having seen any blood on the ground under the bodies of the people who had

20 been killed or in the vicinity of those bodies?

21 A. I don't remember. There was blood on the ground, in the corridor

22 in my house. As for the bodies outside, I don't know. It was -- there

23 was a lot of earth there.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] But you couldn't say that you

25 noticed traces of blood on the ground where the bodies were?

Page 88

1 A. There was blood on their clothes, on their necks. It depended on

2 where they had been hit. There was blood.

3 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. On their bodies and on

4 their clothes?

5 A. Yes. It was terrible to observe.

6 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. I understand.

7 And you said that you also saw bodies of members of the ABiH.

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Where was this, roughly speaking?

10 Where were these bodies?

11 A. I only saw one on the road to the church and the school at the

12 point where the road forks. There was a house there, and he was between

13 two houses.

14 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. You said that you assumed

15 it was inconceivable, impossible that the HVO would shell its people, but

16 I believe that you also said that you took to the road once the shelling

17 had ceased and once the shooting had ceased.

18 So my question is: What was the HVO shelling and where?

19 A. The HVO was shelling the Kransko hill, the highest hill above the

20 village and the hill above Here. Krstiste, that's what the lines are

21 called over there.

22 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And in the village itself you

23 didn't notice anything? No shelling?

24 A. No. There was a stable that had been set on fire.

25 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But you said that outside a

Page 89

1 certain house there were traces that might have been the traces of a

2 shell. Could that have been the trace of a mortar shell?

3 A. No. We found a piece of shrapnel from a grenade. There was

4 the -- the handle, the -- under the window by the wall.

5 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Yes. But that could not have

6 been a mortar shell, for example.

7 A. No. Because there was a piece of it. There was the pin that had

8 remained there.

9 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] My last question: In your

10 opinion, did the people who were -- carried out the attack attack the

11 school primarily? Was the school the primary objective? Was that your

12 impression? Do you feel that the objective of the attack was something

13 else, not the school?

14 A. The school was the last target to be attacked, because Kriz and

15 Zelenike had first been set on fire. These villages were already burning

16 before they attacked the school.

17 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] So how did you -- who said that?

18 A. The soldiers who survived in the school because there were

19 soldiers in the school who hadn't been killed. They survived and they

20 were fighting there. Some had been killed, others survived. They said

21 that they saw that Kriz and Zelenike were on fire. And then they came

22 down to the centre because Cer is the sort of centre in our area, you

23 know.

24 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] And the bodies of the HVO

25 soldiers who had been killed were outside the school, not inside the

Page 90

1 school; is that correct?

2 A. They were on a -- in an area that was flat. I didn't even go to

3 look at them. I went up to my house. When I returned, they had already

4 brought them into the school. They had put them on the tables in the

5 school, and then they took the soldiers to Prozor. And we took the

6 clothes off the civilians and put them in a big lorry.

7 JUDGE EL MAHDI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness.

8 JUDGE LIU: Any questions out of the Judge's questions? I see

9 none.

10 At this stage, are there any documents to tender?

11 Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour. Yes, Your Honour.

13 There's MFI 315, 316, and 318.

14 JUDGE LIU: Would you please indicate what kind of document are

15 these.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour. 315 is the book. The book.

17 316 is, I think, admitted into evidence already, but I know -- perhaps we

18 had made a mistake about that. We thought it had been. But you recall

19 there were two documents, 316 and 317. They were the two pension

20 documents effectively concerning membership of the HVO. If it is the fact

21 that 316 hasn't been admitted, I would move that it be admitted. It may

22 be that we thought it was but we were wrong.

23 And then finally 318 is the series of combat reports which I

24 showed to the witness. There's four of them all bundled together. I

25 think there was no objection to any taken except for that last lot, and I

Page 91

1 think we put that off until now.

2 Your Honours, if -- if objection is taken to them, then I will

3 defer. I do seek to tender them now, but if objection is taken it would

4 be proper to uphold the objection frankly because this witness didn't see

5 it. There might be other witnesses who -- the Prosecution might take the

6 view that it's okay to tender them. So we better see what they say.

7 JUDGE LIU: Any objections?

8 MS. CHANA: We have no objections.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Those two documents, 315 and 318, are

10 admitted into evidence.

11 As for the documents 316 and 317, they have already been admitted

12 into the evidence.

13 Well, Witness, thank you very much indeed for coming to The Hague

14 to give your evidence. We wish you a pleasant journey back home, and

15 after we have adjourn the hearing, Madam Usher will show you out of the

16 room.

17 The hearing for today is adjourned.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.42 p.m.,

20 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 6th day of

21 April, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.