1 Wednesday, 6 April 2005
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number
8 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.
9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
10 Good morning, Witness.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
12 JUDGE LIU: Would you please stand up and make the solemn
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
15 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
16 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.
17 MR. RE: Just excuse me for one moment, please, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
19 MR. RE: Thank you.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
21 MR. RE: Thank you.
22 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Re.
23 WITNESS: IVKA STOJANOVIC
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 Examined by Mr. Re:
1 Q. Good morning, Mrs. Stojanovic.
2 A. Good morning.
3 Q. Is your name Ivka Stojanovic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were you born on the 29th of September, 1944, in Uzdol?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are you a Bosnian Croat?
8 A. Yes, I am.
9 Q. Do you still live in Uzdol?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Have you lived there all of your life?
12 A. Well, occasionally I go to Zagreb for medical checkups and then I
13 return, but I've been living in Uzdol since 1998 on a permanent basis.
14 Q. All right. And the part of -- or the part of Uzdol in which you
15 live, is it known as Kriz?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Do you have a son who was in the HVO in 1993?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And is his name Janko? And he was born in --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. He was born in November 1970, and was 22 in September 1993?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In 1993, was the -- was the village area of Uzdol in HVO or
24 Croatian control?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And was there a military campaign by the Bosnian army, the ABiH,
2 against the HVO in that area?
3 A. What do you mean exactly?
4 Q. Were there front line positions around Uzdol occupied by the ABiH?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How far were they from where you were living?
7 A. Well, I don't know much about such things. I'm not very educated.
8 I'm just someone from a village, but it's about 200 metres as the crow
9 flies. But when we went through that village by bus -- well, it's about a
10 good 20 minutes, but there was a hill down below a little further away,
11 and that is the hill that they were on.
12 Q. Right. I just want to show you several photographs and just get
13 you to identify for the Trial Chamber some locations if you can.
14 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown -- it's photo
16 Q. Now, while we're waiting for the photograph to appear,
17 Mrs. Stojanovic, I'm just going to ask you to point out the locations in
18 that particular photo. I'm going to ask you to point out Kriz, Uzdol, the
19 church, the school, and Kovcalije.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 319.
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. All right. Can you see that clearly?
23 A. That's my house. And that's Kriz. That's Kovcalije.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. The church is here. That's the school.
1 Q. All right. We can't actually see what you're doing for a moment.
2 I'd ask you to pause.
3 A. Very well.
4 Q. And make -- you can put some markings on the photograph.
5 A. Well, there are some markings there.
6 Q. All right.
7 A. That's the church -- that's the school. This is the village of
8 Kriz and this is my house.
9 Q. Can we just stop for one moment. Perhaps could that be erased. I
10 want to put numbers on it.
11 MR. RE: Could you erase that, Mr. Registrar.
12 Q. Mrs. Stojanovic, I'm going to start again. I'm going to ask you
13 to put numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, but just wait until we're ready to go.
14 All right. Could you put a 1, a large 1, where the school is.
15 A. [Marks].
16 Q. All right.
17 A. I think I made a mistake. Can I do it here?
18 Q. Of course.
19 A. Like that.
20 Q. Okay. Can you put a 2 where the church is, that's the Uzdol area.
21 A. [Marks].
22 Q. Now, 3, the village or the hamlet of Kriz, just a 3 in the area
23 where Kriz is.
24 A. Should I mark the house or something else?
25 Q. No, just the 3 -- we'll come to your house later. That's just to
1 show where Kriz is. And also there's a place called Kovcalije.
2 A. Which number?
3 Q. 4, please.
4 A. 4?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. [Marks].
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. And where you've put the 3, is that actually
8 your house?
9 A. That's my house.
10 Q. All right.
11 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence, please?
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. There's no --
13 MR. MORRISSEY: No objection.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.
15 It's admitted into the evidence.
16 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P320.
17 MR. RE:
18 Q. I just wanted to show you another photo, just for an overview of
19 that particular area, and that will be 0299-2307.
20 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 321.
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. Just have a look at that photograph on the screen,
23 Mrs. Stojanovic. Can you see the village or the hamlet. Just look to
24 your left. The usher will help you. Can you see in that photograph the
25 village or hamlet area of Rajici and the village -- hamlet area of Kriz?
1 A. Rajici is here.
2 Q. All right. Can you please mark Rajici with a large 1.
3 A. Number 1.
4 Q. Yes.
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. And just so that we know exactly where we are, can you put a 2
7 over where Kriz is.
8 A. Number 2.
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. [Marks].
11 Q. And without marking, can you also see your house in that
12 particular photograph? I don't want you to mark on it, but can you see it
14 A. It's here, but you can't see it very well because the photograph
15 was taken from a certain angle.
16 Q. And can you see in that photograph where the ABiH front line
17 positions were?
18 A. Bobari is here. They could have been up there, and they could
19 have been up on Cer, but you can't see it very well. And this is where we
21 Q. You're indicating -- do you mean to the left of the edge of the
22 photograph? That is where you think they were.
23 A. Yes. This is Kriz. Our people were here and this is where they
25 Q. All right.
1 MR. RE: May that also be received into evidence?
2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's admitted into the evidence.
3 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P322.
4 MR. RE: I've just been reminded. I forgot to ask for the
5 originals to be admitted into evidence as well, Your Honour. Could they
6 please be admitted into evidence separately.
7 JUDGE LIU: I don't think there's any problem, so it's admitted
8 into the evidence.
9 MR. RE: Thank you.
10 Q. I've finished with the photographs for the moment,
11 Mrs. Stojanovic. Where were you staying in July and August 1993?
12 A. In July I was staying at my home until the 3rd of July. On the
13 3rd of July, Drago Ratkic was killed. An army arrived and said no one
14 would stay there, no one should stay there, and that everyone had to find
15 a way of leaving the village, only the troops were to remain there. So in
16 the evening we went to Rama Rumboci. We were received there and we stayed
17 there, but we nevertheless returned to our children to cook something for
18 them and to do the washing. And that's how I was there on that morning.
19 Q. Where was your husband in July, August, and September 1993? Was
20 he with you or somewhere else?
21 A. No, at work. He was working.
22 Q. Was he working in Bosnia or somewhere else?
23 A. He was working in Austria.
24 Q. You said "we stayed there." Are you referring to yourself and your
1 A. Well, I was there. I had a daughter married in the village. So I
2 was taking care of her and my late mother since my brother died in 1992.
3 His wife survived him and my mother and there was a handicapped daughter.
4 And then I looked for a house I could stay in, and that's what happened.
5 I went to the house to help my child to do the cleaning and then I
6 returned. But that morning I didn't go back.
7 Q. All right. I'm just trying to work out at the moment. You were
8 staying in Rumboc. Are you saying that your son Janko was living in your
9 house in Kriz?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Now, your mother, what was your mother's name?
12 A. Luca Zelenika.
13 Q. What year was she born in?
14 A. 1906.
15 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown Exhibit P298. It is a
17 Q. Where was she living in September 1993?
18 A. In 1993?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. That would be in September. Is that right?
21 Q. That's right. Up until she died, where was she living?
22 A. I took her to Rama on the 3rd of July. And she kept telling me
23 that this was her third war and that she always provided the troops with
24 food, with whatever she could provide them with. But she didn't pay any
25 attention to that. She said, this was just an affair between neighbours.
1 I wanted to go and see my daughter-in-law. As my son was on shift, he
2 came to see me. He said, Mother, could you clean up for me a bit and we
3 could pick some plums, but we could only go to that meadow in the evening
4 because you could have thrown a stone from their lines to our lines --
5 Q. Mrs. Stojanovic --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I'll come to that in a moment. Could I just go back for the
8 moment to where your mother was living in September 1993.
9 A. Yes. But I want to say that on that day I took her to see her
10 daughter-in-law. That's what I want to say. My son came to see me. For
11 that reason, I took her to see her daughter-in-law and to go to that
12 house. It was a Sunday. I took her there, and she stayed there. Since I
13 was closer to the line, I left her in Zelenike with her daughter-in-law.
14 Q. At which house did you leave her? Whose house was it?
15 A. Her house.
16 Q. Is photograph -- is there a photograph on the screen to your left
17 there in front of you?
18 A. You could see it before but you can't see it now. You could see
19 Kovcalije before.
20 Q. [Previous translation continues]... right-hand corner --
21 A. Wait a minute.
22 Q. We're going to enlarge a part of the photo for you.
23 A. Yes. My sight isn't very good and I can't hear very well either.
24 I'm a little deaf.
25 Q. Does this enlargement help?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Can you see your mother's house there?
3 A. I can see it.
4 Q. Okay. Okay. Is it one of those houses shown there above the
6 A. It's this little one here.
7 Q. Right. Can you just put a circle around it and put a 1 underneath
9 A. You can't really see it. There's another house there. It should
10 be there. I know these houses here. Just a minute. What should I put
12 Q. Circle --
13 A. Which number?
14 Q. Circle the house and put a 1 underneath it.
15 A. [Marks].
16 Q. Can you make it a little bit bigger, the 1?
17 A. [Marks].
18 Q. Thank you. Now, what about the Kazo Zelenika? Is he a relative
19 of yours?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is he a cousin?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Can you see his house there?
24 A. That's Kovcalije, that's Zelenike, this could be Kazo's house.
25 What should I write down there?
1 Q. Just a 2.
2 A. Number 2.
3 Q. Thank you. And is that area of those houses, is that the area
4 known as Zelenike?
5 A. That's all Zelenike. This entire area is called Zelenike.
6 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence, too?
7 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It's admitted into the evidence with the
9 THE REGISTRAR: The original is Prosecution Exhibit P298, which
10 has been admitted already. And the one that is marked now is Prosecution
11 Exhibit P323.
12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
13 MR. RE:
14 Q. All right. I've finished with the photographs for the moment.
15 Thank you.
16 Now, you were telling the Trial Chamber a few moments ago that you
17 took your mother to her house on the Sunday. What date was that?
18 A. It was the 12th of September.
19 Q. Why did you yourself go to Uzdol on the 12th of September?
20 A. I went there to do the washing for my son, to make some bread.
21 There was an orchard behind the house so I wanted to pick some plums. And
22 the next Tuesday we wanted to take our mother back to Rumbok [as
23 interpreted]. However, there was a bloodshed that morning and we were no
24 longer able to.
25 Q. You said before that your son was staying in your house. Was
1 anyone else staying in your house with him when you were in Rumboc, to
2 your knowledge?
3 A. No. I don't think there were any of my relatives in the house.
4 Only some of them had returned from the front line and spent the night
5 there. But other than that, there could not have been anyone to my
7 Q. Why was your son staying in the house when you were staying
9 A. Hold on. What exactly do you mean? Well, if my son is caught at
10 the front line, he would probably have run away with the army, with the
11 rest of his soldiers. Why should I have remained in the house all by
12 myself? It wouldn't have been safe for me to do that.
13 Q. Was your son an active member in the HVO in September 1993 when he
14 was staying in the house and you were staying in Rumboc?
15 A. Yes, he was, certainly.
16 Q. Was there any fighting in the area or did you notice anything that
17 suggested there was fighting in the area when you were there on Sunday,
18 the 12th of September?
19 A. There was fighting then and earlier on. It was very often the
20 case that we were in no position to spend the night there. We didn't
21 dare. We would just take a short nap, but you always had to be alert, in
22 a manner of speaking, because the fighting was so close.
23 Q. What sort of fighting was there on the Sunday, the 12th of
24 September? What did you see and hear?
25 A. It was like this: When I arrived on the 12th, my son came over to
1 pick me up. I picked my mother up and left her there. If you show me
2 that photograph again, I can show you the exact route I took. I was quite
3 close to the front line, my own house, so I left her at my
4 daughter-in-law's place.
5 There was just a little random shooting on that day. On that
6 evening, I couldn't bring myself to sleep. I saw lights flashing. And
7 the next morning, the next Thursday morning, what happened was something
8 that was beyond description.
9 Q. What time did you wake the next morning? That's the morning of
10 the -- the Monday?
11 A. As I said, I hadn't even slept. And then I sort of woke up. I
12 washed my son's bedlinen. I baked bread. He was at the front line, and
13 once he returned in the evening I said, Shall we go and pick some plums?
14 He said, Yeah, we might as well go and do that but we should be back home
15 by 10.00, otherwise Dad will say that we didn't and we could have.
16 The Monday evening I hadn't slept -- the night before I hadn't
17 slept, so the Monday evening I fell asleep. I slept tight, as they say,
18 and I was shaken awake by sounds of shooting, and that was Tuesday
20 Q. Tuesday, the 14th of September?
21 A. Yes, 14th. It was a Tuesday.
22 Q. At about what time was that?
23 A. When I opened the door across the way where my son was sleeping, I
24 realised he was no longer there. He was at the doorstep holding a rifle
25 shooting into the air. He said, Run, Mom, run, the whole village is on
1 fire. It was half past 5.00 in the morning.
2 Q. Was it light or dark?
3 A. It was the month of September, so there was a little light. It
4 was no longer that dark.
5 Q. What did you do?
6 A. It's difficult for me to say it here in the courtroom. I threw
7 up. I realised the village was on fire and I got a change of clothes.
8 That's the only thing I could think about at the moment: In case I die,
9 at least I'll have fresh clothes on. He said, Mom, go to that orchard
10 behind that abandoned house over there. I'll cover you and keep shooting
11 into the air. Run and try to save your life. I ran there and a hand
12 grenade exploded. It hadn't even occurred to us that there might be
13 soldiers there. I just dashed out of the house. I took cover behind a
14 neighbouring house. Just opposite me there was a huge man standing as
15 tall as the sky it seemed. He said, Come over, Granny, we won't harm
16 you. But no one every calls me granny. Everyone calls me my name,
17 Zelenikusa. I took a look at him and realised that he was not one of
18 ours. I took shelter -- I tried to take shelter behind the house, but I
19 then I felt a burst of fire and I fell down and I lost consciousness.
20 Q. What was the -- this -- you just described a huge man standing --
21 standing nearby. What was he wearing?
22 A. He was wearing a green uniform or at least that's what I thought.
23 A green beret. He was very big, but it was all a flash. If I saw him
24 now, I don't think I could possibly identify him. There was a lot of
1 Q. Did he appear to you to be a soldier?
2 MR. MORRISSEY: I object to that.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 MR. MORRISSEY: I object to that. It's a live issue in this case
5 as to who were in the -- who were members of the forces that attacked
6 these villages, so there should be no leading on that issue.
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, the witness's previous answer I believe is quite
8 clear: "He was wearing a green uniform or at least that's what I
9 thought." So -- wait --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE LIU: So I believe that this is the witness, herself's
12 opinion. Whether he is a soldier or not is another matter.
13 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, frankly of course the witness can
14 give her descriptions and I don't object to her doing that.
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed, Mr. Re.
16 MR. RE:
17 Q. Was he armed?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was he armed with?
20 A. I don't remember the weapon at all, nor do I know anything about
22 Q. You said earlier that you took a look at him and realised that he
23 wasn't one -- "one of ours." What do you mean by that?
24 A. When I looked at him, that was the impression I had. I was scared
25 to death. I said he wasn't one of ours. If he had called me the way our
1 people called me, I would have run straight to him and thrown myself into
2 his arms, but I realised that he wasn't. I was thinking about running on,
3 but I just fell down. And if you show me the photograph again, I can show
4 you the exact house behind which I fell to the ground.
5 Q. You said you felt a burst -- I withdraw that.
6 I asked you earlier before whether you -- whether he appeared to
7 you to be a soldier and you said yes.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I think there was an objection to
9 that question. My friend shouldn't be putting that to the witness. The
10 objection was that the witness should be able to say what she said. Now I
11 objected quite clearly to that question; now my friend has just repeated
13 MR. RE: If I can be heard on this.
14 MR. MORRISSEY: If I could finish, please.
15 JUDGE LIU: Well --
16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I'm just in the middle of making an
17 objection. Could I finish the objection and then my friend will have the
18 full chance to respond.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Thanks, Your Honour.
21 Your Honour, it's the issue of -- what was objected to at the time
22 was the giving of an opinion as to whether the person was a soldier or
23 some other class of armed person. And at the time the answer was not --
24 in my submission was not permitted. The question wasn't persisted with by
25 my friend after I finished, and there was no answer to it, although the
1 witness did of course attempt an answer in response. But now my friend is
2 putting it as if it was a question and answer that was allowed on the
3 record, and in my submission what I understood Your Honour to rule was
4 different to that.
5 Now, we better be clear. Perhaps we have misunderstood what Your
6 Honour ruled about that. My objection was to the leading question
7 concerning whether the person appeared to be a soldier. That was the
8 objection at the time.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Re, you may ask again a simple question,
10 that is: What do you think that man was?
11 MR. RE: I certainly can. If there's a misunderstanding, I
12 apologise. I didn't think Your Honour had ruled -- I thought Your Honour
13 had ruled against Mr. Morrissey and the witness had actually answered the
14 question --
15 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. But to have a clear record without
16 any leading questions, you may ask the question in the way as I put it to
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Mrs. Stojanovic, what did the man in the green uniform with the
20 green beret appear to you to be?
21 A. It all happened in a flash. What do you expect me to say? It
22 took no longer than a fraction of a second. There was a hill over there
23 because there was another house built of concrete there. I saw that --
24 scared the living daylights out of me. I tried to take cover behind
25 another house and then I fell down.
1 Q. Did the man who was armed, wearing a green uniform and a green
2 beret, appear to you to be a civilian?
3 MR. MORRISSEY: That's a directly leading question in itself.
4 MR. RE: It's capable of many answers: Yes, no, don't know. It
5 doesn't suggest an --
6 MR. MORRISSEY: --
7 JUDGE LIU: Well, I think, you know, the witness did not answer
8 your question directly. Maybe you could ask your question again.
9 MR. RE:
10 Q. We're after your opinion of what the man armed with the green
11 uniform and the green beret appeared to you to be in that small time which
12 you had to see him when he spoke to you.
13 MR. RE: Am I permitted to ask soldier or civilian? Okay, I won't
14 ask that.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Civilian, I don't think that would
16 have been possible. I have never seen a civilian holding a gun in my
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. When you heard the burst of fire, were there any other people in
20 the area of where that man was armed?
21 A. How was I supposed to see that? I just dashed out and fell to the
22 ground. It took no longer than a few seconds. I didn't have a chance to
23 move about the village. I think you're asking the wrong question.
24 Q. Do you know in which direction the burst of fire was fired?
25 A. Yes. If you showed me the photograph, I'll show you exactly where
1 I fell and where he called out to me from. And I'll show you the exact
2 spot where I hit the ground.
3 Q. Was the burst of fire directed in your direction or in another
4 direction, if you can answer that?
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Well -- no, Your Honours, I won't object to that
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was fired in my direction and I
8 was saved by the wall of that house. There was no way he could have
9 gotten me because I fell down before he actually fired the shot.
10 MR. RE:
11 Q. What led you to conclude that it was fired in your direction?
12 A. Fear.
13 Q. Now, you said you fell to the ground. How long were you on the --
14 what happened? Tell the Trial Chamber what happened when you fell to the
16 A. When I fell to the ground, I lost consciousness. I no longer knew
17 what was happening.
18 Q. Did you regain consciousness?
19 A. When I came to I wasn't able to breathe properly and I had a pain
20 in my chest. My throat burned, so I couldn't swallow. I thought I was
21 about to die and I thought that I had been wounded. At that moment, I
22 heard a voice yelling, Omer, they have won. Then I thought either they'll
23 take me away or they'll just kill me on the spot. I realised they had
24 taken the village, and I fainted again.
25 Q. Did you move from the spot where you originally went to the
2 A. No. I didn't even budge when he yelled, Omer, victory is ours. I
3 didn't move at all, nor was I able to move for that matter. I just faked
4 it again.
5 Q. You said you heard one voice say, Omer, victory is ours. Were
6 there any other voices?
7 A. No -- well, yes, perhaps. There was a clamour, but I failed to
8 make anything out. When I woke up, I have no idea how long I had been
9 lying there. And they said, This one is over and done with, and some
10 other things that I decline to say before the Court.
11 Q. You said there are other things you decline to say. Why would you
12 decline to say what they said?
13 A. What exactly do you have in mind?
14 Q. Well, you're in a court and it's okay to say what they said to you
15 or said near you. We've probably heard -- heard these things before.
16 A. No. All I'm saying is that when I came to I had heard earlier on
17 that -- him saying, Come on, Omer, victory is ours. I thought they would
18 slit my throat or take me away. What will become of me? And then I
19 fainted. And later on I regained consciousness again, and they said, This
20 one is dead. Fuck her mother. Get someone else instead. That's what
21 they said.
22 Q. And how were -- how were you lying? What was your position when
23 they were saying this?
24 A. Do you want me to show it to you now?
25 Q. Yes, show it to us. That would be fine.
1 A. Right here?
2 MR. RE: The witness is, for the record, lying on the court floor
3 on her stomach spreadeagled with her face pointing towards her left-hand
5 Q. When you were lying there in the position you've just
6 demonstrated, were you eyes open or closed?
7 A. Closed.
8 Q. Were you moving?
9 A. No, no. I wasn't able to. I tried to move, but I couldn't.
10 Q. And how many voices did you hear?
11 A. Later on --
12 Q. No --
13 A. -- I no longer heard that many. I heard them saying that some
14 livestock was on fire and that things were burning, that there was a
15 stench in the air and I thought to myself, I'm done for. They have taken
16 the village.
17 Q. Just go back to when you were lying there. You said you heard a
18 voice saying, This one is dead. Fuck her mother. Get someone else
19 instead. That's all they said. How many voices -- how many voices did
20 you hear when that was said?
21 A. One.
22 Q. Was it a male voice or female voice?
23 A. Male, male.
24 Q. Did you recognise the voice?
25 A. No. No.
1 Q. Were you able to see whether -- tell whether it was the same voice
2 of the voice of the person who called out to you before and called you
4 A. No, no. I didn't recognise the voice. I was in a shock. I was
5 really very scared.
6 Q. And how long did you remain on -- in that spot, lying on your
7 stomach with your eyes closed?
8 A. There's no way I can know that. I had no watch on me. There was
9 no -- no way I could have known.
10 Q. Apart from the voices, what else could you hear when you were
11 lying there?
12 A. Nothing. The smell of things burning, livestock, for as long as I
13 was lying there. When I came to, I tried to move but I couldn't stand up,
14 not right away.
15 Q. You described hearing a burst of fire at the time when you went to
16 the ground. Did you hear any shooting between then and when you were --
17 got up.
18 A. Yes, there was shooting, and how. It went like that, tack, tack,
19 tack, tack, tack. That's after I regained consciousness. I heard nothing
20 while I was unconscious until I reached that bush.
21 Q. How did you get to the bush?
22 A. I can't say how much time had gone by, but I heard no more voices.
23 I tried to crawl this way and that way. I hoped that I would be able to
24 stand up. I thought that I'd go down as far as the church and maybe run
25 into someone, one of our people, but I failed. I could only walk a couple
1 of yards until I reached that bush.
2 Q. Was the shooting still going on at the time when you --
3 A. Yes, yes. But there was more shooting over near the school
4 building. Our village had already burned down and they had already killed
5 whoever they found. Anica's dead body was lying further down behind me,
6 and there was Ante's dead body ahead of me, and there was not a living
7 soul to be seen anywhere around.
8 Q. I'll come back to that in a moment. I just want to go back to
9 when you crawled towards the bush and there was shooting going on. How
10 far away or how close did the shooting appear to be when you moved towards
11 the bush?
12 A. Well, if you are scared like I was, everything seems pretty close.
13 When I reached the bush, I looked across the hill. There was a bit of
14 woodland and a steep slope. I saw them coming down. I heard them singing
15 and yelling where our soldiers had passed before.
16 Q. Who's "them"?
17 A. The Muslim army.
18 Q. Why do you think it was the Muslim army?
19 A. That was their line, their spot. It could not have been ours.
20 Q. What were they singing and yelling as they came past?
21 A. They were yelling and shouting saying all kinds of things. That's
22 as much as I understood. But while I was in the bush, I heard them say
23 things like, We'll chase the Ustasha as far down as Split.
24 Q. How did you come to leave the bushes?
25 A. Well, I thought to myself, God knows how many times, when I heard
1 them singing, Why don't they just come back and kill me right here on the
2 spot? I was afraid I would fall into their hands alive. My God, what
3 should I do, I thought to myself? I looked over in the direction of my
4 house to see if my son was still alive or dead. And I thought, Well,
5 maybe it's just as well if he's dead; it's much better than they catching
6 him alive.
7 I looked at a nearby cowshed and there was a tree there. I
8 thought to myself, You've nowhere left to run now. The shooting had
9 stopped. There was some random shots being fired still, but not many.
10 And then I heard someone closed to me saying, Look at this, look at this.
11 And I thought to myself, my God, this is not possible. The Muslims are
12 recording what they did. God, please send one of our soldiers so they may
13 save me. And then I saw someone walk by carrying a camera on their left
14 shoulder. And I thought to myself, oh my God, this may be one of ours.
15 It was September and the leaves were dry, so the -- there was a rustling
16 sound from the bushes where I was. One of them swung his rifle around,
17 faced my way and said, Oh look, it's Ivka, she's still alive. That was
18 the son of one of my cousins, Mato Ratkic. I burst into tears.
19 Q. Did they film you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You mentioned a little earlier seeing some bodies in the village.
22 I want you to tell the Trial Chamber where you were and where you went --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- and whose bodies you saw, their family name and their given
1 A. When I stood up to see whether I should be in my way [as
2 interpreted] I turned around to see if there was any soldiers behind me.
3 I saw Anica's body behind me and ahead of me Ante's dead body. That's
4 where I was. But further down behind me there was more bodies which I
5 only saw later.
6 Q. What is Anica's family name?
7 A. Anica Stojanovic.
8 Q. What about the Ante?
9 A. Ante Stojanovic.
10 Q. Did you see any other bodies?
11 A. I didn't on that occasion, not then. But when they found me then
12 I saw Kata Ratkic, Martin Ratkic, but I didn't see Franjo Stojanovic and
13 Serafina Stojanovic who were prostrated or behind Anica.
14 Q. What about the Rajic family?
15 A. When they found me and I started crying and they said that I would
16 go with them. We went down to the church. I saw the Rajics there, four
17 of them, and I saw the other two in the house while I was passing by.
18 Q. What are the names of the four people you saw of the Rajic family?
19 A. Sima Rajic, Mara Rajic, Stanko Rajic, and Lucija Rajic, Mijo
20 Rajic, and Ivka Rajic.
21 Q. Were you with the people doing the videoing when you saw those
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. You said your mother died on that day. Where was she killed?
25 A. Yes. In her house.
1 Q. Did you see -- did you go to her house that day?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you see --
4 A. They wouldn't let me. They wouldn't let me go there since when
5 they took me to the school I was in a state of shock. I couldn't even
6 have gone. They said, Don't go anywhere. You won't be going anywhere.
7 And they took me away somewhere else.
8 Q. Did you see your mother's body?
9 A. I didn't, not then.
10 Q. Did she have a funeral?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When was that?
13 A. They were killed on the 14th. They were in Split for ten days
14 where an autopsy was performed. I can't remember the dates, but I think
15 that they were buried around the 20th but not in our cemetery. That was
16 not possible.
17 Q. This question may sound a little strange, but was your mother born
18 in 1906, did she have a weapon or was she to your knowledge taking part in
19 any hostilities in war?
20 A. No. And there's something else I'll tell you. She said, What are
21 you afraid of? This is my third war. I've always provided the troops
22 with food and made them see to their own business. Take me to my house so
23 that I can see my daughter-in-law. And then what happened to her happened
24 to her.
25 Q. I just want to go back to your seeing the bodies of the Rajic --
1 members of the Rajic family. You said you saw Ivka Rajic and Mijo Rajic's
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Where did you see Mijo's body?
5 A. We saw Mijo's body in his house, on the threshold. And the late
6 Ivka, she had suffered from a stroke and she was killed in her bed.
7 Q. Was she someone who was able to leave her bed?
8 A. No, no.
9 Q. And very briefly, where did you go after seeing these bodies and
10 when the filming was going on?
11 A. Having seen the bodies, we entered the church because they had
12 shot at the images, and that's what they filmed. We then went to the
13 school, but shooting broke out. Later we approached the school, and then
14 they told a driver to drive more quickly, that assistance had to be
15 provided. And I was taken to Rama.
16 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown photograph --
17 Exhibit P306.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What should I point to here?
19 MR. RE:
20 Q. Now, I want you to show the Trial Chamber places you went when you
21 left your house and there was the shooting on the morning of the 14th of
22 September. Firstly, I want you to just mark your own house again. Put
23 a 1 where your own house is.
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. I want you to draw an arrow in the direction of where you walked.
1 If you do a --
2 A. On the house?
3 Q. No. What I want you to do is to sketch little lines, like dot,
4 dot, dot, dot, dot, with an arrow, showing the route you took.
5 A. Once I had left the house, you want me to show the route I took?
6 Q. Please. With a broken line and an arrow so we know which
7 direction you went.
8 A. Here. I'll do it like this.
9 Q. Can you put an arrow at the end of it so we know which direction.
10 A. I don't understand.
11 Q. Mrs. Stojanovic, look this way --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You see I'm holding up an arrow.
14 A. Yes. My hand is shaking. I can't really do it properly.
15 Q. You're doing fine.
16 MR. RE: If the record could reflect that the line goes from the
17 house marked 1, around the back of another house, into some bushes sort of
18 to the upper right, and that's the direction in which she indicated she
19 was travelling.
20 Q. Now, Mrs. Stojanovic, where were you when you saw the large man
21 wearing the green uniform with the green beret? Where were you and where
22 was he? You've just put a circle. What I want you to do is put a --
23 A. Yes, that's where he was.
24 Q. Can you mark -- maybe make that into a 2?
25 A. Where he was. Is that right?
1 Q. Yes, please, a 2.
2 A. Number 2.
3 Q. Right. And where were you? Please -- please draw yourself in
4 with a circle and a number 3 -- a dot meaning where you were, a circle
5 where you were, a small one --
6 A. Number 3, where I was?
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. [Marks].
9 Q. That -- that appears to be just in front of the white house, which
10 is the second house directly above your own. Is that right?
11 A. Yes. Yes, yes.
12 Q. And where did you fall to the ground? Can you show us where you
13 fell to the ground?
14 A. I can. I can. What should I put down there at the spot where I
15 fell to the ground?
16 Q. A 4.
17 A. 4.
18 Q. Can you make that a little bit larger? We have to look at this
19 afterwards when you're not here anymore.
20 A. Is that all right?
21 Q. I think so. Now, you said -- you said a burst of fire -- sorry, a
22 burst -- there was a burst of fire when you fell to the ground.
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. In which direction was the shot fired, if you can tell us.
25 A. When I was there when this person called out to me, I fell there
1 immediately. I only heard a burst of fire that had been opened in my
3 Q. And on the -- you've drawn that line which goes into the bushes.
4 Is that where you crawled to?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you just put a --
7 A. Yes, I crawled. There was here where I fell before this -- in
8 front of this white house. And then I reached the stables and that's
9 where I took shelter. That's where they found me.
10 Q. Right. Can you just put a 5 where that was.
11 A. You mean at the spot in the bushes where I was?
12 Q. You described earlier hearing a voice saying -- the only words
13 unfortunately that are sticking in my mind at the moment are: Fuck your
14 mother, and something like, This one's dead. It will take me a moment to
15 find the exact portion of the transcript.
16 MR. RE: I just can't remember exactly what she said. I
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 MR. RE:
20 Q. Which spot -- is that spot marked on the photograph where you were
21 when you heard that being said?
22 A. Where I was lying?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. [Marks].
25 Q. Is that the spot marked 4?
1 A. I think so. The white house is number 4. Can I mark the white
2 house itself? It will be clearer for you then.
3 Q. What do you want to do on the white house? Do you want to make
4 the 4 clearer?
5 A. Mark it with number 4 so that you can know that that is where I
6 was lying.
7 Q. Yeah, if you could make it clearer, the exact spot where you were
8 lying, it would help.
9 A. Is that all right?
10 Q. That's fine.
11 The question is: When you heard the voices saying those things --
12 or the voice saying those things, was that where you were or was it in
13 another spot?
14 A. That's where I heard that -- that's where I was lying when they
15 cursed my mother. And I lost consciousness there on a couple of
16 occasions. That's when I heard all of that. But when I was in the
17 bushes, marked number 5, then I heard them singing, crying out, and
18 saying, Run, Ustasha, all this territory is ours as far as Split.
19 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence, please?
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
21 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection.
22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. So it's admitted into the evidence.
23 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P324.
24 MR. RE: I wish to show the witness a portion of video P312, which
25 was admitted into evidence yesterday.
1 Q. Mrs. Stojanovic, you gave evidence earlier about the death of your
2 mother and marked on a photograph where she lived. I'm going to show you
3 a portion of the video and ask you if you can recognise something.
4 MR. RE: We started at timer 24.58.
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, could I -- could I just ask what
6 part of the transcript that is?
7 MR. RE: I'm sorry? I don't understand.
8 MR. MORRISSEY: There's a transcript of this -- this interview --
9 of this video, and I just want to know what part of the transcript this
10 passage appears in.
11 MR. RE: The -- we've synchronised the transcript with the video
12 overnight, so it will appear underneath, if that assists, on screen.
13 JUDGE LIU: I see --
14 MR. MORRISSEY: It assists. I just want to know which part is
15 going to be played so I can follow. Which part -- if I can just ask which
16 page that part of the transcript is going to be, I can follow, both on the
17 screen and on my marked copies.
18 MR. RE: I think it's page 11 and 12.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, thanks. I'm grateful for that indication.
20 I think this is a part where the witness doesn't actually appear
21 herself in the video, but if it's a question of getting her to identify a
22 particular house, I don't object to it being shown, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll see.
24 MR. RE: Well, it most certainly is, yes.
25 Can the video please be shown.
1 [Videotape played]
2 MR. RE: Just stop it there. We've stopped at 25.05.
3 Q. Do you recognise that house, Mrs. Stojanovic?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Whose house is that?
6 A. That's my mother's house.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. RE: Stop there. Stop at -- we've stopped at 25.30.
9 Q. All right, Mrs. Stojanovic, there's a body in that photograph --
10 in that video. Do you recognise whose body that is?
11 A. It's my mother's body.
12 Q. How do you recognise it to be your mother's body?
13 A. I can recognise the house and also recognise the item of clothing
14 I made for her. She was also wearing a sort of national costume. Her
15 head has been disfigured, though.
16 MR. RE: Is that an appropriate time for a break?
17 JUDGE LIU: Did you finish showing the video?
18 MR. RE: There's two more short clips I want to show.
19 JUDGE LIU: Let's continue to do that.
20 MR. RE: I will do so.
21 Could we please show -- before we go on.
22 Q. Did you know Ivan Zelenika, Jadranka Zelenika, and Ruza Zelenika?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 MR. MORRISSEY: Can I just intervene here.
25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
1 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, this witness, as I understand it,
2 was not shown those people in the state they were in. Now, if I'm wrong
3 about that, if the witness did see them in the state they were in at that
4 time, I've got no objection. But frankly, to show it to this witness when
5 she didn't see it before, those photographs are very distressing ones, and
6 I fail to see any use in showing it to this witness. I have no difficulty
7 to it being shown to the Tribunal generally. I'm just not sure what this
8 witness can be add in the least to it. And frankly I object to her -- to
9 this witness being shown those terrible photographs, if it is those
10 photographs showing Jadranka and the others because it just serves no
12 JUDGE LIU: Yes. What is the purpose of showing those pictures to
13 this witness?
14 MR. RE: The objection I don't understand. The fact that the
15 photographs might be distressing is not a valid objection in my respectful
17 JUDGE LIU: No, I'm asking you what is the purpose.
18 MR. RE: The purpose is identification of the people in the
19 video. Yesterday --
20 JUDGE LIU: Only for the identification?
21 MR. RE: That's right.
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please, you may show it.
23 MR. RE: We're starting at P312 at 34.40.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. RE: 34.44. Just stop there.
1 Q. There is the body of a man. Do you recognise that person?
2 A. That's Ivan Zelenika.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. RE: We stopped at 35.25.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Jadranka.
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. Jadranka Zelenika. Is that correct?
8 A. Jadranka Zelenika.
9 [Videotape played]
10 MR. RE: Stop there. That's 36.25.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Riza Zelenika -- Ruza Zelenika.
12 [Videotape played]
13 MR. RE: Stop there. Thank you.
14 There is another portion I wish to show her of which she is in.
15 That will take about five minutes.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll take a break and resume at 11.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Re, please continue.
20 MR. RE: We will continue to show this last portion of the video,
21 which is Exhibit P312.
22 Q. A little earlier, Mrs. Stojanovic, you told the Trial Chamber that
23 you were filmed coming out of the bushes. I wish to show you that portion
24 of the video now starting at 43.06.
25 [Videotape played]
1 MR. RE: Just pausing there for one moment.
2 Q. That is you coming out of the bushes, isn't it, running out of the
4 A. Yes, that's me.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. That portion of the video we just saw to 46.17, was that the --
8 that was you coming out of the bushes and explaining what had happened to
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And you also mentioned some bodies -- I'll just play a little bit
12 more of that video. Were you present when these bodies were filmed?
13 [Videotape played]
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This, this is Anica.
15 [Videotape played]
16 MR. RE: That's Anica Stojanovic.
17 [Videotape played]
18 MR. RE: Stop there. 48.20 we've stopped.
19 Q. Who's house is that one? In which part of Uzdol is that?
20 A. These are the Rajics -- or rather, this is the hamlet of Rajici.
21 The house belongs to Pero Prskalo. There was a concrete area outside the
22 house. Here you can see Sima Rajic; her daughter, Mara Rajic; Stanko
23 Rajic; and his life Lucija Rajic. Jela Dzalto was burned alive in that
25 [Videotape played]
1 MR. RE:
2 Q. Those three bodies that were shown a moment ago as 48.39, were
3 those the three bodies you were referring to?
4 MR. RE: I'll just go back.
5 [Videotape played]
6 MR. RE: Stop there.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Four bodies. The daughter and the
8 mother and the wife. And Jela was burned alive in that house.
9 MR. RE: That's at 48.39.
10 [Videotape played]
11 MR. RE:
12 Q. That's a body shown at time of 49.04. Do you recognise that
14 A. This could be Lucija, but it's a dead body, difficult to
15 recognise. If the image was a bit clearer.
16 [Videotape played]
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Stanko's wife, yes, Lucija.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Lucija Rajic.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. Lucija Rajic. Is her last name or family name, Rajic?
23 A. Yes.
24 [Videotape played]
25 MR. RE:
1 Q. And the man lying on the ground next to her at 49.30.
2 A. Stanko Rajic, Lucija's husband.
3 [Videotape played]
4 MR. RE:
5 Q. 49.50, who is that?
6 A. This is Sima Rajic.
7 [Videotape played]
8 MR. RE: Stop.
9 Q. At 50.17, do you recognise that person?
10 A. This one?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. Mara Rajic, Sima's daughter.
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. The four bodies you've just seen, Lucija Rajic, Stanko Rajic, Sima
16 Rajic, and Mara Rajic, were those people -- were those people civilians or
17 were they military?
18 A. As far as I know, they were civilians, but I'm not sure about Mara
19 Rajic. She worked as a cook there. I'm not sure about her. The rest of
20 them were civilians.
21 Q. We'll continue with the tape.
22 [Videotape played]
23 MR. RE: Stop.
24 Q. At 51.08, do you recognise the body of that person?
25 A. Yes, Mijo Rajic.
1 Q. Was he a civilian or military to your knowledge?
2 A. Civilian. He had a wife who had suffered a stroke nine years
3 previously. She had no one else but him, so he had to take care of her.
4 [Videotape played]
5 MR. RE: Stopping at 51.36.
6 Q. There's a body inside a house. Whose body is that?
7 A. This is Mijo's wife. She had been sick for nine years. She had
8 suffered a stroke.
9 [Videotape played]
10 MR. RE:
11 Q. What was her name?
12 A. Ivka Rajic.
13 Q. And finally, there's a house at 51.50. Whose house is that?
14 A. I really can't remember right now. If I can have a minute to look
15 at it.
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. RE:
18 Q. Did that help?
19 [Videotape played]
20 MR. RE:
21 Q. If you don't know, no matter. We'll worry about that.
22 A. We can move on.
23 Q. You've also identified -- or sorry, described seeing the bodies of
24 Anica and Ante Stojanovic. Were they civilians or military?
25 A. Civilians.
1 Q. And just for the completeness, the video we've just shown you from
2 P312, were you with the people when they were videoing it and seeing
3 the -- finding those bodies?
4 A. Yes. Anica and Ante and the one near the school, the one named
5 Rajic, I was with them.
6 Q. And just for completeness of this, was it at that point in the
7 video which is on the screen at about 51.50 that the video camera went one
8 way and you went the other way? That is, they went off to continue
9 videoing and you went elsewhere?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. RE: That's the evidence in-chief, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE LIU: Any cross-examination, Mr. Morrissey?
13 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:
15 Q. Yes, thank you very much, Mrs. Stojanovic. My name is Peter
16 Morrissey. I am counsel looking after Mr. Halilovic in this case.
17 I just want to ask you a question about that videotape before I
18 come to my normal questions and that is: Were you present when they were
19 video recording anything at the church?
20 A. Yes. I was in the church with them.
21 Q. And when did that take place? Was it after the scenes that have
22 just been shown to you by the Prosecutor or before that time?
23 A. When they took me from the village once they had found me we were
24 off to the church which is near Rajici. We entered the church so they
25 could film the damage inside.
1 Q. Did you see any more dead bodies after that time while you were
2 with the camera?
3 A. No, not after. They didn't let me continue with them. They
4 realised the state I was in, that I was losing it. We went as far as the
5 school. We waited a while because there was still some shooting. That
6 was how far we got, and they said, You should go back and rest and get
7 some help. So at that point they took me back.
8 Q. When you say they took you back, you mean they took you back to
9 Prozor. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Very well. Thank you.
12 Now, I have to ask you some -- I have to ask you some questions
13 about the hamlet of Kriz during the time of the war. First of all, was
14 there a front line between the HVO and the Bosnian army along a hill named
15 Borak at that time?
16 A. You're asking me about whether there was any fighting going on?
17 Q. No. I'm asking you about the position of the front line at the
18 time when you made the visit.
19 A. Do you mean before when I was there or later? Which is it you
20 want me to talk about?
21 Q. During your visit when you came on the 12th of September and in
22 the couple of days before the killings took place, was there a front line,
23 a war zone effectively --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And was that position a hill --
1 A. Yes, war zone.
2 Q. Yes. And was there a line --
3 A. Our people were at Borak and their people were at Krstiste which
4 is a hill next to Borak.
5 Q. Yes. And the young men -- well, I'll come to the young men in the
6 village in just a minute.
7 But how far from your house was the front line held by the HVO at
8 Borak? Was it about 200 metres away?
9 A. It was close to the village itself. How far were they? All I can
10 tell you is that I was outside my house, a shell came from over there, and
11 it hit a lamp in my house but not me. So that's how far they were.
12 Q. Yes.
13 MR. MORRISSEY: Now, I would like the witness to be shown a
14 photograph, MFI 319. It might be tendered already as P319.
15 Q. You're going to be shown a photograph that you've already looked
16 at and I'm going to ask you for some comments about that photograph.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, we may have wrongly noted the
18 exhibit number here, but the photo on the screen is not the one we want.
19 Could I just provide the photograph number and that might assist you if
20 we're got our numberings wrong.
21 Q. Mrs. Stojanovic, would you forgive me for a moment, we have a
22 technical issue to resolve.
23 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, the one I have a numbered in the top
24 right-hand corner 0402-0932. I have it labelled as MFI 319 but that must
25 be wrong.
1 THE REGISTRAR: That's Prosecution Exhibit P306.
2 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm grateful for the assistance of the court
3 staff. And could I have Prosecution Exhibit P306 shown to the witness,
4 Mrs. Stojanovic.
5 Thank you. We have it.
6 Q. Very well. Mrs. Stojanovic, looking at that picture, as you do
7 now, is the area called Borak visible?
8 A. No, not in this one; it's further off. This is the village and
9 this is my orchard where the plum trees. And it's outside this image.
10 Q. All right. What I would like you to do is to draw an arrow on the
11 edge of that photograph pointing to where Borak is located.
12 A. You can't see it here.
13 Q. I understand that. It would just help us, though, if you
14 pointed -- if you showed the direction by drawing an arrow where it is.
15 A. But there was a shot that I looked at where one could actually see
16 Borak, but it wasn't this one.
17 Q. Well, that's okay. I may ask you to look at that photograph soon.
18 On this picture, though, would you just please draw an arrow
19 pointing in the direction where Borak is located.
20 A. I drew a circle right there, so it's in that direction. It's in
21 the direction of the small circle that I drew and then further off.
22 Q. Yes, thank you for doing that. Next of all, would you please mark
23 with the number 1 your house, as you did earlier.
24 A. You want me to draw a line or how should I mark it?
25 Q. Just write the numeral 1 on your house, please.
1 A. [Marks].
2 Q. Thank you. That's exactly what I wanted. Would you please now
3 mark with a numeral 2 - just wait for a moment -- well, before I ask you
4 to mark it. Did your son, Janko, have a friend named Mato who was living
5 in a house nearby?
6 A. Yes, that's true.
7 Q. Would you please mark --
8 A. They were born the same year.
9 Q. Yes, thank you. Would you please mark that house with the
10 number 2.
11 A. Where Mato was you mean?
12 Q. Yes, correct.
13 A. [Marks].
14 Q. Thank you very much. Very well.
15 Now, would you please mark with the number 3 where it was that you
16 last saw your son, Janko, when you ran away? Where was he when you last
17 saw him?
18 A. I saw Janko outside my house, at this corner. And this is an
19 abandoned house, the one I'm pointing at now. There was a flower bed
20 there. He jumped straight behind the flower bed and said, Mother, I'll
21 start firing into the air and you just run. This is the house. Should I
22 put a number there?
23 Q. Would you please put a dot where you last saw him, just a point
24 where you last saw him.
25 A. [Marks].
1 Q. Okay. And just write a number 3 next to that point and then I've
2 finished with the markings on this picture.
3 MR. RE: Could I perhaps suggest that be given a 3. It may become
4 a little bit unclear, the dot -- the dot on the house next to the 2 when
5 these are printed out later.
6 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, I thought that was what I just
7 asked to happen, but perhaps I'm wrong. But in any event, my learned
8 friend and I are on completely the same path here, so that's what I was
9 hoping I had asked. Anyway, perhaps I didn't.
10 Q. Would you mind just putting the numeral 3 next to that dot to help
11 us to remember later.
12 A. Can you rub this out. This is the house. Number 3, is that
13 right? Which number should I mark that with?
14 Q. Well, it's just that you put a dot where your son --
15 A. Yes, but I made a mistake.
16 Q. Yes. You can rub that out, if the machine will let you do that.
17 Yes, please do. Rub it out and put where you -- put where he really was.
18 With a dot.
19 A. The dot marks the place where he was.
20 Q. And would you just put a number 3 right next to that dot.
21 A. [Marks].
22 Q. Thanks. And actually -- sorry, there is just one other thing.
23 Could you just put with another dot where the man with the green beret
25 A. [Marks].
1 Q. And could you mark that with a little number 4.
2 A. [Marks].
3 Q. Thank you very much.
4 MR. MORRISSEY: I offer that document for tender.
5 JUDGE LIU: So it's admitted into the evidence.
6 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you for your help in that regard,
7 Mrs. Stojanovic --
8 JUDGE LIU: Well, the Court Deputy will tell us the number.
9 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D235.
11 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you very much.
12 Q. Now, I just have some questions first of all about the people
13 living in Kriz at the time when this tragedy happened.
14 Were there any of -- any young men of military age living in Kriz
15 at that time who were not members of the HVO?
16 MR. RE: Could I -- I'm reluctant to interpose here, but my
17 learned friend has asked the witness a question which is really one of --
18 has a legal characterisation, that is, of military age. If the witness is
19 capable of answering it, she must first -- establish that she knows what
20 military age is or I wonder if my learned friend could put a range of ages
21 to her.
22 JUDGE LIU: Well --
23 MR. MORRISSEY: That's fine, Your Honour, I'll clean it up.
24 Q. All right. Were there any male people in that village between the
25 age of 16 and 50 that were not in the HVO?
1 A. In that village you mean?
2 Q. In Kriz.
3 A. Yes -- well, there was Zoran Stojanovic. He was under age. There
4 was Ivan Stojanovic; he was also under age. They were all the sons of the
5 late Anica, who had been killed. But I don't know whether there were any
6 other young men. I don't think so.
7 Q. Okay. And of those two individuals -- the two individuals, the
8 young boys that you mentioned there, do you ever recall seeing those boys
9 with a weapon in their hand?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did either of them know how to fire a weapon to your knowledge?
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right.
14 A. No.
15 Q. Was your son living in that village at that time?
16 A. Which one?
17 Q. Janko.
18 A. Yes -- well, yes, he was a soldier.
19 Q. Yes. And when he was off duty, did he -- was it his practice to
20 sleep in your home there?
21 A. Yes. Up until 1993, up until the 14th, that's when he was wounded
22 and then he spent time in hospital.
23 Q. Yes. And was it your practice to visit him from time to time
24 there at his request to help him by cleaning and cooking?
25 A. Yes, whenever I could.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. It was difficult to find transport, but whenever I could go there
3 I did. That's certain.
4 Q. When you stayed there, did you notice that he wore his military
6 A. Whenever he went to the line, he took his uniform with him.
7 Q. Yes. But did he also sleep in his uniform?
8 A. Well, I can tell you that -- I don't really know. How would I
9 know? He would come to have a rest, have a wash, and he would rest a
10 little, relax.
11 Q. On the night of the 13th of September, did he sleep in his
13 A. No, he didn't. I didn't see him in his uniform. When I came out
14 of the room I said, Get dressed. He had some sort of a tracksuit on him
15 and then he put something on.
16 Q. What about the night before the killings? Was he sleeping in his
17 military uniform on that night?
18 A. Well, he slept in one room; I slept in another. As I mostly slept
19 to the end of another room, whereas he was closer to the door; that was
20 the situation. He was always ready.
21 Q. But what was he wearing when you first saw him after being woken
22 up by the gunfire on the morning of the killings?
23 A. Well, he was in a tracksuit. He'd never prepared to sleep in the
24 way he should have really slept. He would just have a little rest. He
25 took his uniform off. He'd put civilian clothes on, but he could never
1 fully relax as far as I could tell. As to what the child did during the
2 night, I don't know. I didn't look into that really.
3 Q. No. But you say that he was wearing a tracksuit on the morning
4 when the shooting took place. What colour tracksuit was he wearing on the
5 morning of the shooting -- just a minute. What colour tracksuit was he
6 wearing on the morning the shooting took place?
7 A. He would always sleep in his tracksuit. He couldn't fully relax.
8 As to the colour of the tracksuit, I couldn't really say.
9 Q. Where did he put his weapon during the night when he was sleeping?
10 A. He kept it with him, in his room.
11 Q. Did you see where he put the ammunition for that weapon?
12 A. No, I didn't.
13 Q. Did you --
14 A. He had his own room, his own key. He said, Mom, don't be worried
15 if they call me, if there's an attack of some kind. Don't be worried if
16 I'm not in the room. And I believed my child, and that's what he did.
17 Q. He told you that he had to be combat ready at all times, even when
18 off duty. Isn't that correct?
19 A. Well, yes.
20 Q. And he had to be combat ready because he was guarding a front line
21 that was a very short distance away. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. And indeed your village of Kriz was effectively on the front line
24 between the Bosnian forces and the battalion headquarters in the school at
25 Cer. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes. What do you mean? Could you clarify that question? There's
2 something I don't understand.
3 Q. That's okay. If there's any clarification to be done, the learned
4 Prosecutor will do it. Did you ever see --
5 MR. RE: I object to that at this point. The witness -- a
6 question was asked and the witness was not able to answer it. She said,
7 Yes, can you please clarify it. It's not for me to clarify a question
8 that the Defence counsel asks that isn't answered.
9 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Morrissey, you have to understand that the
10 witness is not a military person, you know. Maybe the combat zone, the
11 front line, are not familiar to this witness.
12 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Well, Your Honour, if the Court thinks it
13 should be clarified, I will clarify it.
14 Q. Well, Mrs. Stojanovic, the question I was asking you was this:
15 That your village of Kriz stood between the front line where the soldiers
16 were on guard and the battalion headquarters back in the village of Cer.
17 Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, apart from Janko's -- could I just ask you this: What kind
20 of gun did your son, Janko, have with him?
21 A. I really know nothing about weapons. A rifle is a rifle. As far
22 as I'm concerned, all rifles are the same; you use them to shoot and
23 that's it.
24 Q. Does the word Kalashnikov jog your memory as to what kind of
25 weapon that your son had?
1 A. I knew nothing about such things. The only thing that was
2 important for me was that they had something to eat, a warm room waiting
3 for them. And as to what they had on them, what they would carry around
4 with them, those are things I wasn't really interested in.
5 Q. Now, when you refer to "them," as you just did, are you speaking
6 about your son, Janko, and his other friends who were doing the same job
7 as him?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Including Mato?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you. Apart from Mato, who were the other young men
12 from the village of Kriz who were in the HVO and performing duties from
13 time to time?
14 A. Well, there was Janko and Marko Stojanovic, Mato Stojanovic, Pero
15 Stojanovic; those are the sons of the Stojanovics. There was Josip
16 Stojanovic, then there was Mijo Ratkic, Kazo Ratkic, Marto Ratkic, Niko
17 Ratkic, the late Drago Ratkic, and there was another person, the late
18 Marinko Stojanovic. They were from the village and they were all at the
20 Q. Very well. Now, you're in a position to say that your son, Janko,
21 was not at the lines that morning, is that correct, because he was with
23 A. Because he had been at the line the previous day. On that day, he
24 was on leave because you know there were shifts.
25 Q. Yes. And your understanding was that all of the young men would
1 work in shifts, spending some time at the front line and then resting at
2 their home in Kriz?
3 A. Yes, yes. Yes.
4 Q. And your understanding was that those young men, all of them, had
5 to be combat ready in case there was a battle at the lines or nearby. Is
6 that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Therefore, those young men all had to have their guns and
9 ammunition with them. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes, that's probably correct. But again, I can't say that for
11 sure. I didn't go around with them.
12 Q. No, I understand that, Mrs. Stojanovic. But did you observe your
13 own son Janko from time to time to have hand grenades or other military
14 items with him?
15 A. No, I didn't observe that. All I could see was his rifle.
16 Q. Very well. Now, on the night before the killings took place when
17 you went to bed -- or before you went to bed, I'm sorry, did Janko tell
18 you that there was a rumour that the Muslims might attack the next day?
19 A. No. We could never have imagined such a thing because we were on
20 good terms with them, on good neighbourly terms. Their children would
21 pass through our villages and we were friends. I couldn't have imagined
22 neighbours doing anything like that to us. I couldn't have imagined
23 someone coming from the outside. I thought that if there was an attack
24 they would go to the lines. If the troops arrived, we would flee. But
25 that bloody morning arrived and they entered the village.
1 Q. Yes. But did your son tell you that there was the possibility of
2 combat action in the general region of Uzdol before you went to bed the
3 night before the killings?
4 A. Well, I can't really remember. That night before, I didn't sleep.
5 I was afraid because there were conflicts on a number of occasions, and we
6 would flee and hide, but we thought there would be a truce and that things
7 would calm down. So we thought that such things would not happen again.
8 But that evening, as I didn't fall asleep in the evening -- well, from
9 12.00 I didn't really fall asleep. As to whether my son slept or not, I
10 couldn't say.
11 Q. What was it that you were worried by that caused you not to sleep?
12 Was it the danger of firing and shooting and killing of people?
13 A. Yes. As I said, I was afraid. I thought that he would come once
14 his shift was over again, but that didn't happen.
15 Q. Now, you listed a number of young men before who were -- you said
16 were involved in the HVO. And you said that they were at the lines. And
17 I want to ask you: Are you able to be specific which of those young men
18 were at the lines and which of those young men were on leave in the
19 village on the morning when these killings took place?
20 A. I don't know. They had their own schedule. They had their own
21 schedule behind the school, so I don't know who was there and who was at
22 the lines. I can't just invent things now.
23 Q. No. Mrs. Stojanovic, did you become aware of any of the boys from
24 the -- or any of the soldiers from the lines retreating and running back
25 through the village of Kriz during the course of the morning?
1 A. I know nothing about that either.
2 Q. Very well. Now, before I come to the fatal morning, I've got some
3 questions about an institution called the home guard. Did you know what
4 the home guard was?
5 A. Well, I don't know what the home guard could have been.
6 Q. Have you ever heard of the home guard?
7 A. Well, I have heard of the home guard, but I don't know what it is.
8 Q. All right. Well, I won't ask you for an expert military opinion,
9 of course. But in general terms you knew that older male citizens of the
10 village were used by the HVO for local duties, such as patrolling
11 crossroads and preventing the planting of land-mines. Is that correct?
12 A. I really know nothing about that. My house is a little on the
13 outskirts of the village. I really couldn't move around a lot. I did
14 what I had to do at home. Sometimes I would bake bread if the troops
15 didn't receive bread; someone would collect it and take it away. I
16 couldn't go to the stables and I really wasn't interested in such things.
17 All I was interested in was whether my child would return alive.
18 Q. Of course. But I have two questions arising from that. The first
19 one is: In what circumstances would you bake bread for the troops in
20 September of 1993?
21 A. That's something we did before. And from September 1993 onwards,
22 I would only bake some bread for my child on occasion. But before -- when
23 it was necessary, we would bake bread and prepare things for the troops.
24 Q. And how long before these killings was the last time you had baked
25 bread for the troops?
1 A. Well, I can't remember. I'm sorry.
2 Q. That's okay. I don't need an exact answer, but was it a matter of
3 days? A matter of weeks? A matter of months ago? What's your best
4 recollection about that?
5 A. Well, you know, a lot of time has passed since then, and I'm not
6 20 years old so I can't remember such things. It's difficult for me to
7 remember what happened yesterday, let alone what happened 13 years ago.
8 Q. Well, even so, I have to ask you to exercise your memory about
9 matters. And one matter I want to ask you about is: Of the older male
10 persons who still remained in the village of Kriz, which ones, to your
11 knowledge, participated in the duties of the home guard?
12 A. Well, I can't even remember what the home guard was and what they
13 had to do. All I know about is these men that went to the lines and
14 that's it. No one really turned to me. If they had orders of their own
15 kind, they would go above the village and they would move around the
16 fields. I don't know. I really don't remember these things.
17 Q. Very well. Okay. I now wish to move to the morning of the -- of
18 your flight and of the sad things that you saw.
19 First of all, when you woke up, you could already hear gunfire
20 taking place. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You got out of bed and you went to see where Janko was. Is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you noticed him nearby. And I want to ask you: Precisely
1 where was he when you first saw him?
2 A. Well, when I got up it seemed as if the entire village had been
3 affected because of the noise. It seems as if the entire village was
4 being shelled. My child said, Mom, the village is on fire, run. I can't
5 tell you anything other than what I have already said. I fled. I fell
6 down. Now you're confusing me even more.
7 Q. Well, there's no attempt to confuse you. I'm going to take you
8 through very -- step by step, okay?
9 Having got out of bed, you had the impression that the village was
10 being shelled. Is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. You then saw your son Janko, and he was dressed
13 like -- he was dressed like a civilian at that point. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Right. But even though he was dressed like a civilian, he had a
16 combat rifle in his hand. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And he was shooting that combat rifle in his civilian clothes?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, when you saw him, he told you words to the effect: They are
21 in the village. Is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, at this moment, you turned and went to your room to change
24 your clothes in a hurry. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes. But I didn't manage to do that.
1 Q. No, I understand that. And what you say is that Janko told you:
2 Hurry up. Run away. I'll cover you. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes. I'll protect you. He fired into the air from a flower bed.
4 I fled and then everything that I have already told you about happened. I
5 don't see why it's necessary for me to go over all of this again.
6 Q. You won't be taken to the discovery of the bodies again, but I
7 need to ask you questions about your movements and what you saw.
8 Now, from the time that you woke up until the time that you
9 started to run, it was really a matter of about two minutes or so. Is
10 that correct?
11 A. Yes. I didn't have a watch on me, but it happened in a split
13 Q. Of course. And when you ran, did you notice any smoke of any sort
14 in the air outside your house?
15 A. Not at that point. I saw smoke when I was concealed in the
17 Q. Very well. Now, before you ran, did you hear Janko speaking to
18 his friend Mato, Mato Stojanovic?
19 A. Mato Stojanovic was in that other house, which I marked by
20 number 2. He wanted to take the other door out and he saw his mother's
21 dead body. Janko then told him to use the other window and not this way,
22 and that was the last thing I heard before I fled. And I didn't see them
23 again after that.
24 Q. Very well. Now, I need to ask you some questions about that. At
25 what point was it that you heard Janko and Mato speaking? Was that while
1 you were in your room getting changed or was it before that time?
2 A. It was after I had returned to get a change of clothes. I went
3 across the room and I heard the voice say that that's what Janko was
4 telling him. But after they had got out the window, I didn't see them
6 Q. Okay. Now, you mentioned Mato seeing the body of his mother. Did
7 you see the body of his mother at that time?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, where was the body of Mato's mother at that time?
10 A. It was a bit further down from my house.
11 Q. All right. Did you see Mato at that time?
12 A. No. They had two houses. The late Anica was in a different house
13 with one of her sons, Ivan, and they were just across the road in a
14 different house.
15 Q. Well, I want to clarify this. At the time when you were still
16 inside your own house, did you yourself see Mato or did you only hear him?
17 A. I heard Janko telling him to get out. It was later when I saw
18 them again that I said, Did you see your mother? And he said, Yes, I
19 tried to take the other door in order to get out. And he was grazed by a
20 bullet or something and he was injured in his arm. That's what he told
22 Q. Now, to your knowledge Mato was in the same position as your son
23 Janko, that is to say, he was an HVO soldier --
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. Okay. And when you saw him later, did you see him later that day
1 or some days later on?
2 A. No, not that day. It was several days later.
3 Q. Very well. Are you aware of whether or not he was in military
4 uniform at the time when he ran from his house?
5 A. I don't know. He said he had been wounded a little, too.
6 Q. Very well. You mentioned that -- I don't have your exact words
7 noted here, but you mention that you heard a grenade or that you
8 encountered a grenade going off in some form. Can you explain in what
9 point that happened?
10 A. No, I don't remember that. I'm not sure I even said it.
11 Q. Do you remember any explosions during the time when you ran from
12 your house up until the time when you fell down?
13 A. No. I heard sounds of shooting. Things were burning all around,
14 but I didn't understand exactly what was happening. I'm not a military
15 person and I didn't understand where the shooting was coming from. All I
16 knew was that there was shooting all over the place.
17 Q. Very well. And that shooting was going on all over the place as
18 you ran from the house in the way that you've drawn on the map. Is that
20 A. Yes, but a little further down. The closest I heard was when I
21 fell down to the ground next to the house.
22 Q. Yes. Now, as you ran to escape you saw a man wearing a green
23 uniform and a green beret. I want to ask --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I want to ask you: Approximately how long did you have that man
1 in view? Was it a matter of one or two seconds or ten seconds?
2 A. No. You catch sight of something with the corner of your eye and
3 you're terrified to death. It's a shock.
4 Q. Yes. You must understand there's no criticism implied of you at
5 all in these questions, and I need your best answer that you can give now.
6 Now, is your recollection now that you glanced at that man for
7 about two seconds. Is that accurate?
8 A. Not even that long probably. I just cast a sideways glance and
9 turned my head immediately.
10 Q. Yes. And did he speak to you and say those words that he said to
11 you, asking you to stop, before you looked at him or after you had already
12 looked at him?
13 A. I looked at him and he said that, but I didn't get a good look.
14 Before he stopped speaking, I was already on the run. I ran behind the
15 house. There was a burst of fire. I thought that I would eventually get
16 further, but when I heard the burst of gunfire go off, I just fell down.
17 Q. All right. The situation is that at the time you heard that burst
18 of gunfire you had already gone around the corner of the house from that
19 particular man?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Very well. And at the time of that burst of gunfire, you couldn't
22 see him. Is that correct?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, after that time you found yourself unable to move and you lay
25 face down for a period of time that you're not sure about. Is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Very well.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You then heard a conversation between individuals and I want to
6 ask you: Did you look at or see any of the individuals who spoke later
7 on, the ones who swore?
8 A. No, no. I didn't see that. My eyes were closed and I was lying
9 face down. How was I supposed to see anything?
10 Q. Were you able to tell whether your son Janko was still shooting at
11 that stage or were you simply able to hear gunfire from various places?
12 A. No. He later told me that he had passed my body. He said, You
13 were just lying there. You looked dead. I didn't dare touch you. And he
14 followed the soldiers who were on their way further down the road.
15 Q. In that conversation when he told you about seeing your body on
16 the side of the road, which soldiers did he tell you he was with?
17 Running --
18 A. When I was brought to Prozor, I didn't see my son there. He had
19 been transferred to Split by this time. It was those others who told me,
20 Is this you? You're still alive? And I said, Yes, I am. And then they
21 said, Janko told us, My mother was dead. I saw her body lying there. I
22 saw her body on the ground back in the village.
23 Q. Yes. And then luckily you went to see him in the hospital, is
24 that correct, and he was alive?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Well, I understand that you're only going on what you're told here
2 and therefore it's hearsay evidence, but I just want to ask you what you
3 were told. And that is: Who were the soldiers that your son ran away
4 with down the road?
5 A. I know nothing about that. I have no idea.
6 Q. Who were the boys you spoke to in Prozor about this?
7 A. I spoke to civilians in Prozor. Civilians, refugees who had
8 arrived before I got there. I was the last to leave the village, but
9 there were civilians who had left the village before me. There were other
10 civilians at Kriz.
11 Q. Okay. Well, I think that becomes rumours, so I won't ask you any
12 more questions about what you were told there.
13 A. Thank you.
14 Q. Well, look, you've nearly finished the questions here, and I thank
15 you for the attention that you've given.
16 As to the hill of Borak, what I want you to do is mark on a
17 picture where that is, and I'll just endeavour to find the appropriate
18 picture to show you and then I've finished.
19 So just excuse me a moment, please.
20 A. Fine.
21 MR. MORRISSEY: Would Your Honours just excuse me. My numbering
22 of the pictures, as you saw earlier on, unfortunately miscarried here. So
23 we're just going to have to find the proper picture to show, and when
24 we've found that we'll ...
25 Okay. We think it's P321. Could the witness please be shown
2 Q. Now, I'm hoping I've selected the correct picture here. Does that
3 picture allow you to see the hill Borak?
4 A. This is Borak.
5 Q. Would you please draw a red line along where the hill of Borak is.
6 A. Where do you want me to draw this circle? Do you want me to draw
7 a circle or mark it in another way?
8 Q. Look, I think perhaps for our purposes the best thing to do would
9 just be to draw a red X on the hill Borak.
10 A. [Marks].
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. I'm ready.
13 Q. Could you just -- and is it the fact that the village Kriz is
14 immediately below that X?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Would you please just write the name "Kriz," K-r-i-z,
17 underneath the village.
18 A. Do you want me to use letters?
19 Q. Yes. Please write it in letters, in normal writing.
20 A. [Marks].
21 Q. Would you please write next to that X which you kindly marked and
22 the photograph the word "Borak," B-o-r-a-k. Thank you.
23 A. Gorak, the thing up here, you mean.
24 Q. Yes, Borak, next to that -- that's right.
25 A. [Marks].
1 Q. Thank you. Is the hill Krstiste visible in that photograph or
3 A. No.
4 Q. Very well.
5 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I offer that --
6 Q. Perhaps I should ask you one more question before I offer it.
7 The hill Krstiste was a high hill, a tall hill, on --
8 A. Yes, the high hill.
9 Q. And it's on the other side of Borak from that shown in this
10 photograph. Is that correct?
11 A. Further down from Krstiste; that's where Borak is. It's a real
12 steep slope. This is Krstiste. And further down there is Borak, also
13 lower down.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. MORRISSEY: I offer that for tender, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. It's admitted into the evidence.
17 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you.
18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D326.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you very much.
20 Q. And my final question - I think it's likely to be the final
21 question anyway - is: You were taken off to Prozor. Were you present in
22 the village of Uzdol when the -- when any representatives from the
23 United Nations came to look at what had happened?
24 A. No. No, I wasn't able to.
25 Q. Okay. And were you present in the village when a BBC film crew
1 came to film what there was to be seen?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay, sorry. I do have one final question and then that's the
4 end, Mrs. Stojanovic.
5 On the video it shows you coming out of the bushes in a very sad
6 and distressed state. And you gave a description of somebody -- when you
7 were talking to the men, you gave a description of somebody and you said
8 you thought it was Mijo. Now, who were you talking about that you thought
9 was Mijo?
10 A. There was a neighbour of mine, a big person, but he never called
11 me granny. He always called me Zelenikusa. When I looked at him -- first
12 I heard the voice and then I looked at him. I realised it wasn't him and
13 then I fell down outside the house.
14 Q. Yes. So the person who you at first thought might be Mijo turned
15 out to be the man in green. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Okay. Thank you very much for answering my questions.
18 MR. MORRISSEY: That's the end of the questions.
19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
21 JUDGE LIU: We will take a break for 30 minutes. So we'll resume
22 at 10 minutes to 1.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 12.19 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 12.50 p.m.
25 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Re.
1 MR. RE: Yes, thank you. Could I also indicate that Ms. Chana has
2 an application that she would wish to make in private session at the
3 conclusion of this witness's evidence.
4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course.
5 MR. RE: Thank you, thank you.
6 Re-examined by Mr. Re:
7 Q. Ms. Stojanovic, in examination -- sorry, cross-examination,
8 Mr. Morrissey asked you to mark on a photograph the location of Borak. I
9 just want to show you another photograph which gives different perspective
10 and a different view to see if you could locate it on a different
12 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown photograph 0299-2326.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 327.
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. Mrs. Stojanovic, you can see the school in the lower foreground.
16 Can you see Kriz at the top of --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now --
19 A. Yes, I see it.
20 Q. Now, is that hill to the left of --
21 A. But only from one side. Yes.
22 Q. Now, is that hill to the left of Kriz on that particular
23 photograph is that Borak, or is it on the other side?
24 A. To the left.
25 Q. Would you be able to do what you did on the other photograph and
1 that is put an X and mark -- write Borak, B-o-r-a-k.
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here one can also see Krstiste,
5 which is where they were firing at Borak from.
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. Right. It would probably be helpful if you marked that on as
8 well. Can you write "Krstiste." Krstiste I think it is.
9 A. This is all right, too.
10 Q. All right. Now, just so it's completely clear, is Krstiste, is
11 that the hill --
12 A. Yes, it's a hill. That's opposite Borak.
13 Q. And you said they were firing --
14 A. This is where they were and this is also where they were firing
16 Q. Who is they? Are you referring to the Bosnian army or the --
17 A. The Muslims. The Muslim army.
18 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence.
19 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection.
20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P328.
22 JUDGE LIU: It's admitted into the evidence.
23 MR. RE:
24 Q. Also, Mrs. Stojanovic, my learned colleague asked you at
25 page 57: "Now, before you ran, did you hear Janko speaking to his friend
1 Mato Stojanovic?"
2 You said: "Mato was in that other house which I marked by
3 number 2. He wanted to take the other door out and he saw his mother's
4 dead body."
5 Now, I just wanted to clarify something about that. Mr. Morrissey
6 then went on to ask you: "Now, you mentioned seeing the
7 body of his mother. Did you see the body of his mother at that time?"
8 And you said: "Yes."
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. What was his mother's name?
11 A. Anica Stojanovic.
12 Q. Where did you see her body at that time?
13 A. When I dashed out of the house when I son told me to run, I looked
14 left of my house and I saw her body lying on the ground. I couldn't tell
15 right away that she was dead. I was running. It was only later when they
16 found me and when they brought me back to film the dead that I realised
17 with a great deal of sadness that she was indeed dead.
18 Q. When you saw her body later, was it in the same position as it was
19 when you saw it as you ran out of your house?
20 A. Yes. The same position and the left part of the body had been
21 blown to bits.
22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
23 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown P306 -- oh, sorry.
24 Q. We're just going to show you a photograph you've already looked
25 at, and that is the overhead shot of Kriz, which is P306. Can you see on
1 that map -- sorry, on that photograph where it was that you saw her body?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. All right. Could you please mark it with an X.
4 A. Just a dot or a line or an X?
5 Q. An X, please.
6 A. [Marks].
7 Q. Okay.
8 MR. RE: Is that clear enough for the Trial Chamber's purposes?
9 Might that be received into evidence, too.
10 MR. MORRISSEY: No objection.
11 JUDGE LIU: It's admitted into the evidence.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That's exhibit P329.
13 MR. RE: Nothing further.
14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
15 Well, I believe that there's no documents to tender from both
16 parties. Yes.
17 Well, Witness, thank you very much indeed for coming to The Hague
18 to give your evidence. Madam Usher will show you out of the courtroom.
19 We wish you a very pleasant journey back home.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Re.
23 MR. RE: Yes, there's also the matter of the Karic depositions
24 which has been put off over several different days, the argument for it.
25 I've spoken to my learned colleague. I understand he's prepared already
1 to argue it, or parts of it, this afternoon. Would it be appropriate
2 after Ms. Chana's application?
3 JUDGE LIU: Well, that depends on Mr. Morrissey's preparation.
4 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, yes, I've already flagged what
5 the broad outline of what we say the point is. I'm happy to commence this
6 afternoon and say what I have to say this afternoon. So I'm in the
7 Chamber's hands, but --
8 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let me hear Ms. Chana first.
9 MS. CHANA: Good morning, Your Honours. Can we go into private
10 session, please?
11 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll go into private session, please.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 71-75 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Now we are in open session, please.
20 MR. MORRISSEY: Thanks, Your Honour.
21 Well, Your Honours, the Defence submission is as indicated before,
22 that the time has now come to play Mr. Karic's deposition in court. As I
23 understand it, the power to grant a deposition hearing is a power to grant
24 a reception -- a deposition for trial, for use at trial, so that the
25 deposition, once ordered, becomes evidence unless it's excluded in some
1 way under some other discretion.
2 Now, in this case, the Prosecution proceeded at the time in a
3 particular way according to the decisions taken. Questions were asked of
4 Mr. Karic and the evidence in-chief was completed. Thereafter,
5 cross-examination began. Cross-examination was -- was characterised by
6 two relevant features. The first is that the cross-examiner indicated a
7 reluctance to cross-examine. At the time he said he was -- he said he
8 didn't have co-counsel, he wasn't familiar with the proceedings of the
9 Tribunal, and that he was reluctant to cross-examine. But because of the
10 health issues and because of what was seen at the time because as the
11 protection of the interests of the accused, he was prevailed upon to
12 cross-examine. It was asked whether he would be prepared to, and he
13 ultimately took a decision that he was prepared to and he did so. So it
14 has to be conceded that there has been some cross-examination upon this
15 deposition already. When that cross-examination finished, there was some
16 limited re-examination and then the matter terminated.
17 But the other feature of cross-examination was that at the time
18 the freedom to cross-examine by the -- by the then-counsel for
19 Mr. Halilovic was subject to an objection by the Prosecutor who said that
20 there should be no cross-examining pursuant to Rule 90, there should be no
21 cross-examining outside of the scope of the evidence in-chief. And that
22 objection, the presiding officer at the time did not rule upon herself but
23 effectively reserved the question for a later time.
24 Now, it seemed upon perusing that that what remains is that for
25 the Defence to indicate whether they're happy with the cross-examination
1 that they -- that we were allowed or whether we would seek to ask another
2 question. It raises a difficult issue from the Defence point of view.
3 Mr. Karic was very unwell back then, and the -- the indications that I
4 have since that time are that he is -- he continues to be unwell. I'm not
5 sure quite how -- how -- I don't have a medical opinion as to how he is
6 right now, but I believe a medical opinion was sought concerning his
7 illness, and I think our information is that it's quite grave. So the
8 Prosecutor will probably have more up-to-date information than we do, but
9 we did make an inquiry about his medical situation some time ago. I can't
10 recall. I think it was during trial, though, and Mr. Mettraux will have
11 it somewhere. I don't have it at my fingertips unfortunately.
12 Your Honours, that's an issue. And therefore, I mean, considering
13 whether you would grant our request to have further cross-examination, you
14 have to take that into account and have some sensible, reliable
15 information as to his health. That's a matter which I can't provide you
16 with, his health status today.
17 However, I can indicate that the further cross-examination the
18 Defence wants to -- wants to engage in here is pretty narrow in scope. He
19 was cross-examined quite fully about a number of matters and they were
20 obviously relevant matters. But spectacularly missing from the questions
21 was a question of whether he delivered any threats in the presence of his
22 son or otherwise to persons in the village. And I just wanted to ask him
23 that: Did you go to the village? Did you threaten the civilians? Or did
24 you -- did you encourage the soldiers to deal with the civilians in a
25 summary way and throw them into the Neretva? And if he says yes -- we
1 anticipate he will say no. But if he says, Yes, I did actually make that
2 terrible threat, well, then the next question will be of course: Was
3 Sefer Halilovic standing nearby, and what did he say and so on?
4 Now, it's evident from the questions that we've asked, the
5 propositions that we've put to witnesses, the answers that we've elicited
6 from some of those witnesses what the Defence position is about all of
7 that and what we want to put to the Tribunal at the end. We are in a
8 position of -- we don't want to concede that it shouldn't be put to
9 Mr. Karic. In some respects -- the Defence wants to be clear as to what
10 our case is, and it's not fair of us to say, Well, we don't want Mr. Karic
11 to be called, we don't want to put that proposition to him. Of course we
12 want to put that proposition to him because that's our case. It's the
13 Defence case, which it always has been, that Mr. Halilovic was not at a
14 meeting that -- at which Mr. Karic and Mr. Dzankovic and others certainly
15 did attend in Grabovica on the 8th of September. But although we say
16 Halilovic wasn't there, the Defence also takes the position that
17 regardless of Halilovic being there or not being there, Karic never said
18 anything like that at all, and that it's been -- the Defence case is that
19 it's been made up for other reasons. And in that regard, Vehbija Karic
20 ought to be given the chance to comment on that question and it would help
21 the Tribunal if he did. All right, it's 12 years later, I accept, and,
22 yes, he's in ill health, and yes -- although I'm not sure technically
23 whether the Prosecutor would lead it or not, it must be blindingly clear
24 that he would have been and I concede he was interviewed as a suspect.
25 So all of those factors are relevant factors to take into account.
1 But at the end of the day, that's the Defence case and I don't want to
2 appear to -- frankly, I don't want appear manipulative and, you know,
3 hiding behind something. We want to put it fair and square to that
4 witness. And that's really why I want to have him made available for
5 cross-examination for that limited matter. I don't seek to open up the
6 matters on which he's already given evidence, even though clearly on the
7 face of it there's some things we might want to ask further questions
8 about. We think it's realistic given his health -- what we know about it
9 at the moment; we might get further guidance from the Crown -- from the
10 Prosecutors about that.
11 But that's what we want. We want a limited cross-examination. If
12 it needs to be on video, which I rather suspect it would have to be, then
13 we will cooperate with any measure that has been taken. What we submit is
14 that this matter could be dealt with really within minutes and not be too
15 much of a stress for the witness, all other things being completed in an
16 appropriate way.
17 So therefore, our submission is as follows: That the deposition
18 ought to be played to the Court, that after that the Defence be given a
19 limited right to cross-examine on matters which -- on which they were
20 effectively shut out on the previous occasion. The Defence doesn't have
21 the right to re-open cross-examination on matters where we did
22 cross-examine. And that the Prosecutor, I suppose, should they wish to
23 clarify anything arising out of the new cross-examination, should be
24 entitled to -- presuming it does arise directly out of cross-examination,
25 should be entitled to ask any such question to clarify anything that
1 should I should chance to leave vague in that regard. But the submission
2 is that should happen. And I know about difficulties to arrange
3 videolinks, and that's why we've harped on this subject a little bit, but
4 we just don't want him to die, frankly, and it may be that that's a
5 genuine possibility. We don't want the issue to be determined without him
6 giving -- giving -- being given the chance to give that account.
7 And that's our submission.
8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.
9 Any response, Mr. Re?
10 MR. RE: The Prosecution doesn't accept the argument that -- the
11 fact that depositions are ordered and taken pursuant to Rule 71
12 automatically means that they become part of the trial record or that they
13 are automatically tendered. I can give Your Honour a real practical
14 distinction between this case -- at least another case in which I have
15 been involved in in which depositions were taken, and that was the Simic,
16 Tadic and Zaric trial, in which mid-trial during the Defence case the
17 Trial Chamber ordered that depositions be taken in Belgrade. I think we
18 took depositions from -- it might have been a dozen witnesses or so in
19 Belgrade. But that was ordered by the Trial Chamber hearing it -- after
20 having received the Defence 65 ter list and making a decision as to which
21 evidence should be heard live and which evidence could be safely taken by
22 deposition. And even then at the conclusion of that, about a month later,
23 the Trial Chamber on a Prosecution application ordered two of those
24 witnesses proprio motu to -- I think attend to give further evidence in
25 The Hague on parts of their -- on parts of their evidence. So there's
1 certainly a precedent within the Tribunal for deposition evidence to be
2 supplemented by live oral testimony before the Trial Chamber, and of
3 course by extension before the -- by videolink. And in the Simic case,
4 the depositions weren't actually played to the Trial Chamber. It was a
5 week -- six days of testimony. But they were received and admitted as a
6 documentary exhibit.
7 Another difference between that situation and this is that the
8 depositions which were taken by videolink here, there were a number of
9 exhibits actually tendered or -- which is a matter which the Trial Chamber
10 has to determine, whereas in the Simic they were -- it was simply live --
11 or live deposition evidence.
12 So the Prosecution's position up front is that the fact they were
13 ordered doesn't mean they automatically go in. Especially in
14 circumstances in which the request was made two years ago. The decision
15 made by the Trial Chamber was two years ago and in very different
16 circumstances with a very different witness list. The witness list was
17 then over 100 and it's been dramatically pared back since. The
18 Prosecution may not -- had it been in a position now, at the end of last
19 year, considering its witnesses, may not have wished to call Mr. Karic at
20 all. But that -- that's basically another matter. So we say that they
21 shouldn't automatically go in.
22 Now, we do of course concede -- well, it's not a matter of
23 conceding. We acknowledge it was our application; it wasn't opposed by
24 the Defence; and the Trial Chamber allowed the depositions to be taken,
25 and quite extensively. The present Prosecution trial team does have some
1 concerns about the manner in which the depositions were taken, and that is
2 by no means the fault of the presiding officer, Ms. Featherstone. Her
3 role was simply to preside. We do have some concerns about the way the
4 questioning was conducted and some of the questions that were put to
5 Mr. Karic at the time. And there are some matters which in the light of
6 the evidence given before the trial, and if he was called by videolink
7 tomorrow, we would be asking him some other matters, some slightly
8 different matters. We would be asking to explore some other things that
9 we say should have been explored with him if his evidence is to have its
10 full probative weight and value before the Trial Chamber.
11 In terms of the quality of the cross-examination, we don't
12 disagree with Mr. Morrissey as to -- there are clearly some matters which
13 the Defence -- which competent Defence counsel should and would have put
14 to Mr. Karic at the time. And although he was -- he was represented --
15 the record shows the Defence counsel who was then in the matter -- his
16 assignment was withdrawn by the Registry at a certain point.
17 But having said that, the depositions go on for some 133 pages.
18 Pages 89 to 128, 39 pages of those are actually the cross-examination of
19 Mr. Karic. So there was a reasonable amount of cross-examination at the
21 The Prosecution would, if the depositions are accepted into
22 evidence, would -- we don't oppose Mr. Morrissey's application if it goes
23 in for him to cross-examine further. We accept that as a matter of
24 fairness he should be able to put the case as it now is at trial to
25 Mr. Karic. However, if he's allowed to do that, the Prosecution similarly
1 would request that if he can request questions, the Prosecution should
2 also be allowed to ask further limited questions of Mr. Karic on matters
3 which are relevant to the Prosecution case and the way it has been
4 conducted at trial.
5 The -- one of the matters Mr. Morrissey raised - and quite
6 properly - was whether or not Mr. Karic made a threat -- or made the
7 threatening gesture or said the words which some witnesses have said he
8 said, and whether or not Mr. Halilovic was present. Now, I concede, and
9 unfortunately I have to concede, that is something the Prosecutor should
10 have asked Mr. Karic during the deposition evidence two years ago. And
11 that question is properly a function of the Prosecution in-chief rather
12 than the Defence in cross-examination. If it's part of our case, we
13 should have put it before -- before the Trial Chamber in the depositions.
14 We should have asked him: Did it occur and was Mr. Halilovic there and
15 what happened? And in my submission it would be preferable to be asked in
16 an open-ended manner for the witness to be given a chance to respond in
17 his own words rather than in a cross-examining manner in which the
18 cross-examiner would be entitled to put words in his mouth.
19 Now, having said that, I don't know, having not spoken to
20 Mr. Karic, what the answer will be. I suspect it will probably be as
21 Mr. Morrissey has said. But it's certainly a matter which, in our
22 respectful submission, should be a question which the Prosecutor puts and,
23 if necessary, the Defence is entitled to cross-examine on that or any
24 other relevant matters.
25 In terms of the witness's health, we have contacted him. He is,
1 of course, like most witnesses or many witnesses, reluctant, but he
2 informs us that his health would permit him to give videolink testimony,
3 if necessary, subject to medical supervision and breaks, of course. Now,
4 I don't have any medical evidence which I can put before the Trial Chamber
5 at the moment as to his current condition, but his condition was certainly
6 outlined in the material supporting the Prosecution's application of March
7 2003, and we -- the date of that was the 14th of March, 2003, and we
8 tendered the relevant medical material then. And if you look at that
9 material, things haven't changed that much from what we have been told.
10 So to summarise, we -- the Prosecution accepts that we ask for the
11 evidence, and we're probably bound by that, although we say it's not
12 automatic. And we do agree that the Defence should be allowed to
13 cross-examine. But if they are allowed, we request the right to examine
14 in-chief on a limited range of things which we can agree with the Defence
15 about and put to the Trial Chamber and ask that if the depositions go in,
16 the witness be ordered to provide further testimony by -- limited
17 testimony by videolink with both parties allowed limited further
18 examination. But that, of course, doesn't address the issue of any
19 exhibits which were shown to him at the time and in particular his
20 interview with the Prosecutor, which is MFI 2 on the application.
21 Unless Your Honours wish to hear from me on that matter at the
22 moment, which exhibits go in with him, those are my submissions on whether
23 they should go in and, if so, on what conditions.
24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.
25 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes --
1 JUDGE LIU: Very concise.
2 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, I will be, Your Honour.
3 The Prosecutor should not be permitted to introduce new evidence
4 from a witness at this late stage in the trial as a kind of condition
5 attached to the introduction of this material and attached to
6 cross-examination. The Prosecutor is not suggesting they have any right
7 to this material at all, and that's right, they haven't. What's being
8 submitted to you now is that you should allow the Prosecutor another
9 attempt to elicit evidence in-chief from this witness, and there is no
10 provision in my submission in the rules for that, and there is absolutely
11 no provision, in my submission, in the rules for that. But more
12 importantly there's no basis for doing it here. The Prosecution did have,
13 as has been indicated, almost 100 pages of evidence in-chief. They made
14 their decisions, and they really are stuck with them now.
15 In any event, I'm going to put that proposition - it's a yes-or-no
16 proposition - to this witness, if I'm permitted to, of course. And
17 therefore, I'd submit that there is just absolutely no basis to start
18 eliciting new material from this witness who has got a terminal cancer
19 condition, it would appear, nearly 12 years later. That really just seems
20 to be, in my submission, an attempt to get something extra, and I'd submit
21 it shouldn't be permitted.
22 May I say this: That in terms of exhibits that were tendered at
23 the time, the record reveals what was put to the witness and what wasn't.
24 And -- well, perhaps you can hear me about that another time as to what
25 should happen with those exhibits. But it will be apparent that these
1 documents that my friend has referred to were not put into the transcript
2 in the least, and objection was taken to their translation and to their
3 accuracy and so on like that. If we do descend to particulars about that,
4 we might come up against one of our favourite investigators, Your Honours,
5 so there will be a real live issue about that, but that's a matter that
6 comes later on in my submission.
7 So at this stage I've said what I've had to say on the current
8 application, and we'll deal with the exhibits, depending on what Your
9 Honours rule.
10 MR. RE: I'm sorry, I forgot to say something in my response
11 before, and that relates to the documents.
12 There are a number of documents which have been shown to other
13 witnesses -- not a number, there's a few, maybe half a dozen, which we
14 would want to show to Mr. Karic if he is permitted to testify further and
15 which really should have been shown to him at the time and in our
16 submission would be highly relevant because he was a member of the
17 inspection team and can shed light on those in the same way that
18 Mr. Dzankovic could.
19 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe this issue is a very complicated one,
20 and this Bench has to look into the history of all the proceedings of the
21 deposition. And at this moment, we are not in the position to make a
22 ruling on the spot. And we'll do so as early as feasible on that very
24 Are there any other matters that the parties would like to raise
25 at this stage? I see none. So the hearing for today is adjourned.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.35 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 7th day of
3 April, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.