Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1

1 Tuesday, 12 April 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is Case Number

7 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

9 Before we hear the witness. I believe that tomorrow afternoon

10 we'll start at 4.30 instead of 2.15 since this courtroom will be occupied

11 by another hearing. And we understand that we have a very tight schedule,

12 and there are so many witnesses on the list for this week, so we try to

13 find some other time to make up the time we lost tomorrow afternoon, which

14 means we might have four sittings a day some day.

15 Yes, are there any other matters perhaps that you would like to

16 raise? Yes, Ms. Chana.

17 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. This is one other matter that I

18 would like to raise, and that is we now would like to make an application

19 to withdraw one witness which was due to come to give his testimony

20 tomorrow, and the name of that witness is Vlajcic, Gusto. And I have -- I

21 had proofed this witness this morning, Your Honour, and I have given over

22 to the Defence the proofing notes and I also alerted them by telephone

23 that we will be making such an application. They do have the proofing

24 notes, and I'll give the following reasons as to why we wish to withdraw

25 him.

Page 2

1 Firstly, Your Honour, the witness invited me not to lead certain

2 testimony, and that was about the Muslim soldiers and the church. As he

3 said, it would beg the question from the Defence as to why the soldiers

4 did not shoot at him, as he was an HVO officer in uniform, given that he

5 had stated in his statement and he wished to say in court that the ABiH

6 wanted to kill all Croats. He thought that this might be inconsistent and

7 I should leave this aspect of his testimony out entirely. He stated to me

8 that the Defence might pressure him for the truth.

9 Your Honour, in respect of another aspect of his testimony, and

10 that is what he heard about the intercepted communications of the ABiH, as

11 he was a communication commander, he said he heard over the radio, because

12 the ABiH had actually taken over the communication of the ABiH [sic]:

13 Retreat, the enforcements are coming. This was something he had not

14 mentioned before. And he also stated that he does not remember the

15 name "Sefer" in what he had -- what was reflected in his 2000 statement

16 which said: "Act according to Sefer's order."

17 He said to me that he had not heard the name Sefer Halilovic prior

18 to this time and he is not sure how it came to be attributed to him. He

19 also then said to me that Nikolai probably misunderstood him and: "I

20 can't remember whether I mentioned the name Sefer." He further stated to

21 me, and he said: "I thought if I mentioned the name Sefer it would be a

22 problem for me. I could bring myself into an uncomfortable position with

23 this one word, and I could deny everything I said in my statement.

24 The name is not important, but the important thing is that the

25 crimes were done.

Page 3

1 Your Honour, he further stated to me that there -- that Nikolai

2 behaved like an amateur when recording his statement and he was not a

3 professional. Your Honour, when I advised the witness that it appears to

4 me that he might not be in a position to assist the Trial Chamber with his

5 testimony and that I will not call him, he stated that he really wants to

6 testify before this Chamber. And, If you want, he said, I will not only

7 say Sefer's first name but will also say "Halilovic," and that is -- the

8 name that he heard in that intercepted communication. Because now he's a

9 hundred per cent sure he heard his full name being mentioned by the ABiH

10 soldiers.

11 Your Honours, the Prosecution does not feel that this is a

12 credible witness, and therefore would now respectfully make this

13 application to have him withdrawn from the list.

14 JUDGE LIU: Any response from the Defence?

15 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, the Prosecutor advised us of this

16 matter before giving us the proofing notes. We were told of this -- I

17 can't remember how many minutes ago it was, but quite recently. But on

18 the information provided in this Court, the Prosecutor would have no

19 choice but to make the application that she makes. The Defence does not

20 oppose it. It seems to me it would simply be inevitable in that situation

21 that the Prosecution would behave.

22 I express my gratitude to the learned Prosecutor for advising us

23 as soon as she could. The proofing notes only came at the very end, but I

24 want to place on the record, because we've been critical on other

25 occasions, we want to place on the record here that we were advised orally

Page 4

1 sometime before that, and I take it rather as the situation developed. In

2 those circumstances it's a matter for the Court to decide, but we think

3 the Prosecutor has got no choice but to act as she has, and we'd make no

4 further comment.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

6 Since the matter how to present their case is entirely in the

7 hands of the party who is calling the witness and taking into

8 consideration of the reasonings presented by the Prosecution, this Bench

9 granted the request from the Prosecution.

10 MS. CHANA: Obliged, Your Honour.

11 JUDGE LIU: And we are not going to hear that witness.

12 Yes, anything else? Well, so could we have the witness, please.

13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, I've been just informed by the Court Deputy that

16 there's a possibility for us to sit on Friday starting from 10.30 in the

17 morning until 12.00, then we make a break and continue our sitting at 2.15

18 until 7.00. Yes.

19 [The witness entered court]

20 JUDGE LIU: Well, Witness, good afternoon.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

22 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to continue?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I am.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Please sit down.


Page 5

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 Examined by Mr. Re: [Continued]

3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Stojanovic.

4 A. Good afternoon.

5 Q. Yesterday in your evidence we had got as far as the morning of the

6 14th of September, 1993, when you heard shooting outside which was coming

7 close and you went outside with your Kalashnikov. It was light and you

8 stayed outside for several minutes and your mother remained inside.

9 Just to go back on that briefly from yesterday, when you went

10 outside did you see -- I asked you yesterday: "Did you see who was

11 shooting?"

12 And you said: "Not at that time, I just saw the direction from

13 which the bullets were flying in."

14 Now, when you went outside that first time, did you see any people

15 with guns?

16 A. Not the first time.

17 Q. Did you fire your own weapon when you went outside the first

18 time?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You said you stayed outside for a few moments and then you went

21 back inside. What did you do when you went back inside?

22 A. I told my mother to get ready, that something was wrong.

23 Q. And what did your mother do?

24 A. She stood up and she started to pack while I went back outside.

25 Q. Did you take your weapon with you when you went back outside?

Page 6

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. What did you --

3 A. It was in my hand.

4 Q. Sorry. Was the shooting continuing?

5 A. Yes. It increased in intensity and then at one point I decided to

6 fire back.

7 Q. Where did you go when you went outside a second time?

8 A. I went as far as the corner of my house.

9 Q. You said you decided to shoot back. Did you in fact shoot back?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Where did you fire?

12 A. [No interpretation].

13 Q. Where did you fire?

14 A. Where the shots were coming from, all sorts of unusual places in

15 the woods.

16 Q. Can you please just clarify that. You said "all sorts of unusual

17 places." Are you saying that you shot in all sorts of unusual places or

18 the fire was coming from all sorts of unusual places?

19 A. There was just one place the shots were coming from, from the

20 woods, and the bullets flew in the direction of my house.

21 Q. Did you fire in that direction?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How many times?

24 A. I fired several shots, not the whole magazine.

25 Q. Why did you fire?

Page 7

1 A. I thought at the time that I was able to return fire, but I soon

2 gave up. There was far too much fire coming my way.

3 Q. Was there response to your firing into the woods?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What was the response like?

6 A. There was a response by automatic weapons.

7 Q. What did you do?

8 A. I returned to the door of my house.

9 Q. Did you consider yourself to be covered from the position in which

10 you were in when you fired towards the woods?

11 A. No. I didn't consider myself covered. It was still too

12 dangerous. And that's why I decided to go back.

13 Q. Did you go into the house?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. What did you do?

16 A. I took my mother as far as the door.

17 Q. Was your mother dressed at that point?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What did you and your mother do?

20 A. I told her not to leave the house without me.

21 Q. Did you know someone called Ivan Stojanovic?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. How old was --

24 A. I know that person quite well.

25 Q. How old was he in 1993?

Page 8

1 A. About 14 or 15. I think he was born back in 1978.

2 Q. Where did he live relative to your house?

3 A. It was a neighbouring house, very close.

4 Q. Did you see him when you went outside on either of those

5 occasions, that's the first two times you went outside when there was

6 firing?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where was he and what was he doing?

9 A. He was at the window of his house facing my door.

10 Q. What was he doing at the window?

11 A. He asked me, What's going on?

12 Q. What was your response?

13 A. I said something was wrong, it was too close, and he would be

14 better off running for his life.

15 Q. What did he do?

16 A. He disappeared from the window and I have no idea where he went.

17 Q. Just go back to when you went into the house with your mother.

18 You told her not to leave the house without you. What happened then?

19 A. I looked in the direction of the road junction in my village to

20 see what exactly was going on.

21 Q. Go on. Where were your mother when you looked in the direction of

22 the road junction?

23 A. She was right behind me near the door.

24 Q. What did you see when you looked out -- when you looked out into

25 the village in the direction of the road junction?

Page 9

1 A. Nothing up to that point. There was a great deal of shooting

2 there.

3 Q. Did you and your mother leave the house?

4 A. Not at this time.

5 Q. What did you do at that time? Can you tell the Trial Chamber what

6 you did when you looked out the window at the -- down towards the

7 junction, the road junction, your mother is in the house, you're at the

8 door looking out. What did you do next?

9 A. There isn't much of a view from the door. I had to look over the

10 wall. I looked at my mother several times and also tried to look at the

11 place that I'd fired at previously. The shooting was getting closer and

12 closer to our home, so I looked across my shoulder several times. I

13 looked around the door.

14 Q. Then what happened and what did you do?

15 A. My mother disappeared. She slipped out of view.

16 Q. Did you say something to her before she left the house?

17 A. She didn't leave the house, rather she went back to the room.

18 Q. Okay. What did you do? What did you and your mother do? You

19 left the house at some point. I want to come to that point.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, it better be made clear

21 whether they left together or not together. The question seems to presume

22 that, so it should be clarified.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I think that could be clarified very easily.

24 MR. RE: Not yet because I haven't got to that point yet. I'm

25 still trying to get to the point where they leave the house either

Page 10

1 together or alone.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Well --

3 MR. RE: I will get there. We are getting there.

4 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, you're in the house with your mother, you're

5 looking out the door, your mother disappeared from view in the house.

6 What happened then in the house?

7 A. I went to get her. She wanted to get a change of clothes. I told

8 her that wasn't necessary. I told her to just grab something that was

9 handy and we had to run because there was nothing else for us to do.

10 Q. And what did your mother do?

11 A. She put some footwear on. I can't remember what exactly, but she

12 was quick and then we left the house.

13 Q. How did you leave the house? Describe how you left the house.

14 A. When we left we didn't go far from the house itself. We went as

15 far as a low wall near the door.

16 Q. As -- did you leave the house together or did one of you go in

17 front of the other. I want you to describe how you left the house and

18 what you were doing, both of you were doing, when you left the house.

19 A. My mother was behind me at this point in time. We went two metres

20 from the house, got near this low wall that I told you about, and that was

21 that.

22 Q. Did you say anything to your mother as you were leaving the house

23 about where you were going or what you wanted her to do?

24 A. I told her exactly how far she should go, where she should go to,

25 and where we would go from there.

Page 11

1 Q. What did you tell her?

2 A. I told her to run to a house. There was a fruit tree near it. I

3 told her to try and run across the street and that I would do my best to

4 cover her to the extent that I could.

5 Q. And what did you mean by doing the best to cover her?

6 A. There was a lot of firing over that way. I would be returning

7 fire while she was running across the road, so there was a chance that the

8 firing would stop.

9 Q. Did you in fact fire when your mother was leaving the house?

10 A. She was still behind me. I didn't let her go until I cast another

11 glance in the direction in which I was about to start firing.

12 Q. What did you do? You said your mother was running across the

13 road; what were you doing?

14 A. She had not yet started running. There's something else that is

15 really important that happened then.

16 Q. What's that? What was the important thing, the really important

17 thing, that happened then?

18 A. I looked at the neighbour's house, Ivan Stojanovic's house. His

19 mother was sleeping in the house that night. On her balcony there were

20 five soldiers. Those were no HVO soldiers.

21 Q. Which army were they from?

22 A. I couldn't tell, but I assumed they were Muslims. They carried

23 rifles and they were looking down on the street.

24 Q. What were they wearing?

25 A. Camouflage uniform, the sort we didn't have, the pattern was a

Page 12

1 great deal smaller and it was the colour of sand. They also wore green

2 berets.

3 Q. What were they doing?

4 A. They were standing there on the balcony looking down into the

5 street a bit to the right facing the woods.

6 Q. What happened then? What happened after you looked up and saw the

7 five soldiers standing on the balcony of Ivan Stojanovic's house?

8 A. I looked behind me to make sure my mother was still there, to make

9 sure she was near me.

10 Q. Was she?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what did you do?

13 A. I heard a woman's voice cry out, Ivan, my son.

14 Q. And did you recognise the voice?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Whose voice was it?

17 A. It was Anica Stojanovic's voice; she was the mother of Ivan

18 Stojanovic.

19 Q. Where was the voice coming from?

20 A. From outside her house.

21 Q. Could you see her?

22 A. I looked that way and I saw her half-seated. There was a soldier

23 standing next to her. He [Realtime transcript read in error "she"] shot

24 her in the head using an automatic rifle at point-blank range, single

25 shot.

Page 13

1 Q. You said she was half-seated. What do you mean by half-seated?

2 A. She sort of fell down, that sort of thing.

3 Q. Describe the soldier.

4 A. A very large man wearing a green beret. On his right-hand side a

5 knife and -- on his left-hand side a knife, and on his right flank a gun,

6 holding a Kalashnikov rifle. He was about 198 or 200 centimetres all, I

7 would say.

8 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Re, in the transcript of the answer of the

9 previous question the witness answered: "She shot her in the head using

10 an automatic rifle at point-blank range."

11 MR. RE: Thank you for pointing that out.

12 JUDGE LIU: We need some clarification on that "she."

13 MR. RE:

14 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, I want to clarify something in the transcript.

15 The transcript says: "There was a soldier standing next to her.

16 She shot her in the head using an automatic rifle at point-blank range,

17 single shot."

18 Did you say "she shot her" or "he," the soldier, "shot her," Anica

19 Stojanovic?

20 A. I said he then shot her in the head with a single shot using an

21 automatic weapon, and that's a quote.

22 Q. You said it was at point-blank range. How far -- how close was he

23 to her when he shot her?

24 A. Three metres maximum.

25 Q. A moment ago you said: "She sort of fell down, that sort of

Page 14

1 thing." Can you describe a bit more fully the position she was in before

2 he shot her?

3 A. She was seated with her arm reclining backwards to keep her from

4 falling on her back altogether. I suppose that's why the arm was slightly

5 behind her body.

6 Q. Was she on the ground?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Did the shot kill her?

9 A. He shot her in the head. She just fell down on her back, so it

10 must have killed her.

11 Q. And how far were you from the soldier who shot her in the head?

12 A. Up to 15 metres, thereabouts.

13 Q. Now, was Anica Stojanovic a civilian or a soldier?

14 A. Civilian.

15 Q. Was she armed when the soldier shot her in the head?

16 A. No.

17 Q. Was she wearing a military uniform or civilian clothes?

18 A. Civilian clothes. She was wearing a dress.

19 Q. Where was your mother when this happened, when you saw the soldier

20 shoot her, Mrs. Stojanovic, in the head?

21 A. Behind me near the door. I didn't allow her to see what was going

22 on. I meant to protect her.

23 Q. What happened then? What did you and your mother do?

24 A. I then told her it was time to go, that we can no longer afford to

25 wait. I told her where to go exactly. This place could be seen from our

Page 15

1 door. I told her not to go anywhere out of my sight in case she wanted me

2 to protect her.

3 Q. Go on. Tell us what happened then.

4 A. I sort of peered to look in that direction I told her to go.

5 There were no soldiers around. At this point there was a lot of smoke.

6 There was a cowshed burning right behind us. I opened a burst of fire and

7 I told her to run.

8 Q. Where did you shoot, in what direction?

9 A. I told her to run to where that -- I shot in the direction where

10 that soldier was but more into the air just for safety.

11 Q. And what did your mother do? Did she run?

12 A. Yes. She ran across the street to where I told her to go.

13 Q. And what did you do?

14 A. I started running, too, but I didn't follow her. I jumped over

15 the fence and found myself in an abandoned garden. I realised I had to

16 conceal myself and not keep running.

17 Q. What could you see from there?

18 A. I had a clearer view of the house and the road junction with an

19 open area next to it.

20 Q. Did you see any soldiers that weren't HVO soldiers when you were

21 hiding in the bushes?

22 A. Yes. Five soldiers on that same terrace in Anica Stojanovic's

23 house.

24 Q. What were they doing?

25 A. One of them went up to the roof and faced the woods, and that's

Page 16

1 where the first shooting had come from that I had heard. He put his hands

2 near his mouth and he said, Come on, Omer, it's over.

3 Q. Did you see who he was shouting to -- sorry, talking to?

4 A. No.

5 Q. What did you do then?

6 A. All I could hear was a cry of joy in the middle of the woods and

7 some shots were fired into the air.

8 Q. How long did you stay in the bushes for, the garden for?

9 A. I really can't specify. Everything happened very quickly, and it

10 was all very sudden. It's difficult for me to be very specific about

11 time.

12 Q. Did you leave the garden?

13 A. No. I tried to remain concealed. I did not want to show myself.

14 Q. At some point did you leave it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about leaving it, please.

17 A. I hid inside for a while so they wouldn't see me. I kept my head

18 low. After a while I looked up and the soldiers were no longer around. I

19 ran over to where I expected my mother to be.

20 Q. Yes. Go on.

21 A. I ran to that place, but my mother wasn't there. She had probably

22 run on. She must have been stunned or very scared, and she went somewhere

23 I'd never told her to go.

24 Q. Did you hear any voices?

25 A. When I got to this place where she was supposed to be, just behind

Page 17

1 that house I heard a voice saying, Stop, Grandma, we won't harm you.

2 Q. Then what happened?

3 A. Soon after that I heard several shots being fired.

4 Q. Where were the shots relative to where the voice was?

5 A. Where the voice was coming from.

6 Q. How far was the voice?

7 A. About 20 metres away from there.

8 Q. You heard some shots --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel please speak into the microphone.

10 MR. RE: If I can move the microphone closer to me. I'll try.

11 It's got a very short cord on it.

12 Q. Where -- you said you heard some shots. Did you hear -- did you

13 see a person -- did you see anyone shooting?

14 A. I saw no one shooting. After the shot I looked in that direction

15 and I saw a soldier who was very old. At least I thought that he was very

16 old.

17 Q. By "very old," what age are you talking about?

18 A. Well, for a soldier, in my opinion 50 is old, and that is how old

19 I thought he was, looking at his face.

20 Q. What was he wearing?

21 A. He was wearing a uniform, but it was not a camouflage uniform. It

22 was some sort of a special uniform with some sort of stripes. It was an

23 olive-green uniform with some sort of black vertical stripes.

24 Q. Was he armed?

25 A. Yes, he was. He was holding an automatic rifle in his hands.

Page 18

1 Q. Was he of the HVO or another army?

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, my learned friend well knows

3 that it's not necessary to be a member of any army. He might be a member

4 of a police unit, so the alternatives that are being put there do not form

5 the complete set and is therefore a leading question in my submission.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. I believe that Mr. Re could put this question in

7 another way.

8 MR. RE:

9 Q. Was he of the HVO or was he of another military outfit?

10 A. I really couldn't tell at all. I couldn't see of course the

11 emblem.

12 Q. Was he one of yours?

13 A. I never saw such a soldier before that.

14 Q. What did you do then when you saw him with the automatic rifle in

15 his hand?

16 A. Well, I ducked under the wall again and I waited for a couple of

17 minutes to see whether he would leave or would set out in my direction,

18 generally to see what would happen.

19 Q. And then what happened?

20 A. He disappeared from that spot and I ran to a wall which was near

21 that place, which was just below the road, and there I stopped and I

22 looked around. There was no one within my sight.

23 Q. Please go on.

24 A. So a couple of minutes after that behind that house - from the

25 direction of the house of Anica Stojanovic, in other words - a soldier

Page 19

1 came. He was quite tall, and he was wearing the same outfit as the

2 soldier that had killed -- that had shot Anica Stojanovic.

3 Q. Did you form any impression about whether or not he was the same

4 soldier?

5 A. Absolutely.

6 Q. Meaning what?

7 A. He had everything the same. He had a pistol and a knife. His

8 height was the same, his outfit was the same, the cap, the rifle, the size

9 of him was the same.

10 Q. What did you do and what did he do?

11 A. I hid there, and he did not go on straight from there, but he

12 turned left to another part of the village uphill. The name is Ratkici.

13 Q. Is it Rakic or --

14 A. It is Ratkici, R-a-t-k-i-c-i.

15 Q. And what did you do?

16 A. I waited for a while for him to get away, some distance -- several

17 metres in fact, 20 or 30 metres, I'm not quite sure. And I felt that it

18 is a chance for me to leave the spot and to try and catch up with my

19 mother.

20 Q. Yeah, go on.

21 A. After having covered some 50 metres, I saw my mother lying across

22 the road.

23 Q. Describe how she was lying.

24 A. She was lying horizontally on her stomach across the road and --

25 not longitudinally but across the road.

Page 20

1 Q. And what was your reaction to seeing your mother there?

2 A. I did not stop. I thought that she had been stopped dead. I was

3 aware that this was not a movie and that I had to save my own life and I

4 kept running.

5 Q. Where did you run to?

6 A. I actually ran across her -- over her towards the house of Anica

7 Stojanovic, from where I could take a left turn in order to avoid the

8 clearing -- sorry, actually I took the turn to the right.

9 Q. You ran across your mother and where did you go to?

10 A. I literally jumped over my mother because she was lying in the

11 middle of the road. And I continued straight in the direction of the

12 house of Ante Stojanovic. There I saw him lying dead not far from his

13 house.

14 Q. Ante Stojanovic, was he a relative of yours?

15 A. No, he is a neighbour.

16 Q. Was he a civilian?

17 A. Yes, he is a civilian.

18 Q. Was he armed when you saw him lying dead not far from his house?

19 A. No, he wasn't.

20 Q. Was he in -- what was he wearing? Was he in civilian clothes or

21 in military clothes?

22 A. I think that he had a shirt on, not your regular trousers but

23 sweatsuit bottoms and thick socks, I think.

24 Q. Now, where did you go after seeing Mr. Stojanovic's body?

25 A. I went towards the creek, towards -- in the direction of Prozor,

Page 21

1 to the right from that particular place.

2 Q. All right. Now, did you meet any people on the way?

3 A. Yes, I did.

4 Q. Who were they?

5 A. I know that for a fact they were Luka Stojanovic, Mato Stojanovic,

6 Marko Stojanovic, Lucija Ratkic, and I believe there were another two

7 persons but I'm not quite sure. There were a number of persons.

8 Q. Now, very briefly, where were they and what were they doing when

9 you met them?

10 A. They were hiding a distance about a hundred metres away from Anto

11 Stojanovic's house at a road junction to which a pedestrian path leads

12 only. That is where they were hidden behind some trees.

13 Q. Was there still shooting going on when you met them?

14 A. Well, not really. Everything was already on fire and there was

15 smoke rising. There was some shooting that could be heard from the

16 direction of the base where Cer is.

17 Q. Now, where did you go after that? You said you were heading in

18 the direction of the creek. Where did you go to?

19 A. I asked them whether they wanted to go along with me, that I was

20 going to the creek because I considered that to be the only safe place at

21 that time, and they also agreed to go with me. So we set out in the

22 direction of the creek. I don't know how long all this lasted, but we did

23 make it to the creek.

24 Q. What happened when you got to the creek?

25 A. Before we reached the creek, we stopped for a while at some bushes

Page 22

1 and we looked in the direction of the house, or rather two houses -- where

2 we could see two houses and some soldiers in the road. We thought that it

3 would not be wise for us to continue along our way in that particular

4 direction, but I told them that we had no other option or that perhaps we

5 could wait beside the creek until night fell and see whether those were

6 our soldiers or not because we had no other way out of the situation.

7 Q. Very briefly, what happened after that? I want to move through

8 this part of your evidence fairly quickly, if we could do that.

9 A. All right. We got to the creek and from there we could see

10 several soldiers. We recognised one of them. He was Ivan Kovcalija. We

11 called out to him to ask him who he was. Mato Stojanovic stated his name

12 and said that I was a cousin of his and that we can get out without any

13 fear.

14 Q. Where did you go to? Did you stay in the creek or did you go

15 somewhere else?

16 A. We went out from that place by the creek to a distance of about

17 100 or 150 metres away to a woods where there were other people from my

18 village -- other soldiers from my village, sorry.

19 Q. Go on.

20 A. Yes. Well, we met with them there and did nothing in particular.

21 We waited there. We were tired. We were thirsty. We talked to each

22 other to see who was there, who had remained up there, whether there were

23 any other people left there.

24 Q. How long did you remain in Uzdol that after -- that day? Until

25 when did you remain in Uzdol?

Page 23

1 A. Are you asking me what the time was exactly when we met with our

2 soldiers?

3 Q. Just approximately. What I want to know is what time you left

4 Uzdol that day, that's all.

5 A. It all took place before 10.00. 10.00 in the morning, that is.

6 Q. Why did you leave Uzdol?

7 A. It is a question that I find a bit strange. I fled the shooting.

8 Q. What was the reason why you had to leave the area of Uzdol that

9 day?

10 A. I was wounded that day.

11 Q. How did that happen?

12 A. At this spot where we met the soldiers that I knew well from my

13 own village and from other villages and where my cousin -- where I came

14 with my cousin Stjepan Ratkic. From there we went to the house of Rade

15 Stojanovic because I wanted to take a drink of water because I was very

16 thirsty.

17 Now, not far from that place some 50 metres away or so, I'm not

18 quite sure, there was a clearing which -- where one could -- where we

19 could hear long bursts of fire being opened, and there I was hit.

20 Q. You're saying you were shot?

21 A. Yes, that's what I'm saying. Yes.

22 Q. Where were you shot?

23 A. I was hit in the chin and in the chest.

24 Q. As a result of that were you evacuated from Uzdol?

25 A. Yes, I was.

Page 24

1 Q. At approximately what time was that?

2 A. Not long after the time when I met with the soldiers and saw my

3 cousin, so it was some half an hour after that.

4 Q. You said earlier "it all took place before 10.00 in the morning."

5 Are you saying you left Uzdol before 10.00 or after 10.00?

6 A. Are you saying generally from Uzdol or until I reached this safe

7 place where the soldiers were specifically?

8 Q. When you were evacuated. I'm interested at the point at which you

9 were evacuated. About what time were you evacuated from the Uzdol area

10 after you'd been shot?

11 A. I think that it was sometime before or around 11.00.

12 Q. Was there still shooting at the time you were evacuated?

13 A. I do not remember that.

14 Q. Were you taken to Rumboc and then by helicopter to Split to a

15 hospital?

16 A. Yes, I was.

17 Q. Did you hear or see anything that indicated to you on that morning

18 that mortars were being used by either side?

19 A. I would have recognised such fire. I don't think that they were

20 used.

21 Q. What about the tank?

22 A. No, I don't think so. I would have recognised that, too.

23 Q. What do you say to a suggestion that the HVO were shelling their

24 own civilians in Uzdol?

25 A. I really would not know how to deal with this question

Page 25

1 politically. It is quite simply quite stupid to shoot at one's own. I

2 really do not see what the purpose of that would be. I simply do not

3 believe that.

4 MR. RE: I'm going to show the witness a portion of video

5 clip P312. We're starting at counter 41.43, which will be shown in

6 Sanction.

7 Q. Can you just look at the screen, Mr. Stojanovic.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MR. RE:

10 Q. All right. Did you see the --

11 MR. RE: Stop it there. Did you see the body there?

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, we haven't got this.

13 MR. RE: Sorry.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, I apologise for this, Your Honour. I just

15 don't know what we're looking at here. Is this the exhibit that was shown

16 the other day because it wasn't shown in Sanction then, so I just want to

17 be clear that we've got the same thing that the Prosecution's got.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Maybe there's just one -- some clips from the

19 one tape.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Look, I mean, if it's -- if Mr. Re tells me hat

21 it's from the same tape that was shown in court the other day, I don't

22 mind if he uses Sanction for this limited purpose. I just want to know

23 what it is, and then I want some help getting it on my screen because I

24 didn't see what was shown then. I apologise for that, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Re.

Page 26

1 MR. RE: It's P312, the video exhibit number, and I'm showing a

2 clip.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

4 MR. RE:

5 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, can you see the video there?

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 Q. Okay. If we can just play this portion. There's a body in the

8 video at 41.41.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. RE: Okay. Just stop it there.

11 Q. Whose body was that?

12 A. Ante Stojanovic's, aka Jampura [phoen].

13 Q. And just look -- we're looking at 42.16, which shows the body face

14 up.

15 [Videotape played]

16 MR. RE: All right. We'll stop the clip at 43.04.

17 Q. Now, does that show Mr. -- I'm sorry. You said you saw

18 Mr. Stojanovic dead. Does that show him in the same position as you saw

19 him when you went passed his body?

20 A. Are you talking about the first clip or the last one? I don't

21 understand. He was lying face down.

22 Q. Okay. The word "position" might be a bit ambiguous. Does it show

23 him in the same geographical area, the same place, as where you saw him?

24 A. Well, I think so, I think yes, but you can see from afar.

25 Q. I'll move to the next one.

Page 27

1 MR. RE: If we could play clip 46.19.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. RE:

4 Q. Are you okay to look at the clip, Mr. Stojanovic?

5 A. I am.

6 Q. Okay.

7 MR. RE: Play it.

8 [Videotape played]

9 MR. RE: Okay.

10 Q. Do you recognise that body?

11 A. Yes, I do. It is Anica Stojanovic in front of her house.

12 Q. You said you saw a soldier shoot her in the head. Her body is

13 lying on her back --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Her head is downhill at 46.48 on the clip. Does that show the

16 position her body was in after the soldier shot her in the head?

17 A. Yes, definitely.

18 Q. Does that still show her house?

19 A. Yes, it does.

20 Q. All right. Thank you for that.

21 Now, I wish to show you a photograph, Mr. Stojanovic.

22 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown Exhibit P306.

23 Q. All right. Now, that's a photograph, an overhead photograph of

24 the village of Kriz. Do you see it in front of you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 28

1 Q. Now, I want you to mark some things on it. I'm going to ask you

2 to mark on this photograph the following things: Your house; Anica

3 Stojanovic's first house, her second house, where you saw the soldier

4 shoot Mrs. Stojanovic, and where you saw your mother.

5 So first could you mark with a 1 your own house, your mother's

6 house.

7 A. [Marks].

8 Q. Can you mark with a 2 the Stojanovic house in which you saw Ivan

9 Stojanovic at the window.

10 A. Number 2?

11 Q. Yes, please.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. Can you mark with a 3 their second house, the Stojanovics' second

14 house.

15 A. [Marks].

16 Q. Can you please mark with a 4 where you -- where the soldier was

17 who shot Mrs. Anica Stojanovic.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Q. Can you please mark with a 5 where it was that you found your

20 mother lying face down and you stepped over her, thinking that she was

21 dead.

22 A. Should I just use number 5 or do you want me to use some sort of a

23 line, because I can mark the exact position.

24 Q. All right. What I want you to do is put a 5, but I also want you

25 to draw a line to show the direction in which you travelled to get there.

Page 29

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. All right. Can you perhaps mark that 5 a little bit larger.

3 Could you possibly erase that 5 and just do the 5 again.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Thank you. And can you just continue with the line where you went

6 and hid and the direction you took down into the village -- or sorry, down

7 towards the creek.

8 A. [Marks].

9 Q. All right. Thank you. And it might be a little bit out of

10 sequence, but could you please mark with a 6 the place where you were

11 where you stood firing into the air when your mother ran away or ran

12 across the road.

13 A. You can't really see in this photograph. Should I place an arrow

14 there?

15 Q. An arrow -- yeah. If you can place an arrow with a 6 underneath

16 the arrow pointing to where the arrow goes, please do.

17 A. [Marks].

18 Q. Thank you very much.

19 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence, please.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's admitted into the evidence.

22 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P347.

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. On -- as of the 14th of September, 1993, I want you to tell us

25 approximately how many civilians and how many soldiers were staying in the

Page 30

1 village of Kriz.

2 MR. RE: And while that's being done, while the witness is

3 answering, could I please have 0299-2310.

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe you could make a break here.

5 MR. RE: Of course.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll take a break and we'll resume until 4.00.

7 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 4.02 p.m.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Re.

10 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, before the break I was asking you about the number

12 of civilians staying in Kriz in September 1994, that is the 14th of

13 September, 19 -- sorry, 1993, civilians and soldiers.

14 Approximately how many civilians and how many soldiers, HVO

15 soldiers, were staying in Kriz at the time of the attack?

16 You can't hear?

17 A. [No interpretation].

18 Q. All right. The question was: Approximately how many civilians

19 and how many HVO soldiers were staying in Kriz at the time of the attack

20 on the 14th of September, 1993?

21 A. You want me to give you the total of both civilians and soldiers

22 or separately as two distinct groups?

23 Q. Separately, please.

24 A. About 15 civilians and about 10 soldiers.

25 Q. Now, do you have that photograph of Kriz in front of you, which is

Page 31

1 0299-2310? What I want you to do is I want you to mark where people were

2 staying, and I want you to use different symbols. If you could use a dot

3 for civilians and a cross for soldiers.

4 MR. RE: Can we perhaps enlarge that photo a little bit? Is it

5 possible just so you get the houses. Now, if he marks on that and we move

6 it, is it going to disappear, the markings?

7 THE REGISTRAR: If it's marked and then moved, it will disappear,

8 Mr. Re.

9 MR. RE: Could we possibly reduce it so the houses are in? I want

10 the houses on the left to be in the photo.

11 I'm trying to get a shot of the houses so that you've got the four

12 or five houses on the left in view as well as the ones on the right. If

13 we could do that so it's all on the same screen if that's possible. Let's

14 try with that one.

15 Q. Now, it's a dot for civilians and a cross for soldiers.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. Can you make the dot a bit bigger.

18 A. [Marks].

19 Some soldiers were at these positions, so I'm not sure where I

20 should place the mark for them. I can't remember exactly who was there

21 that evening and the next morning.

22 Q. I'm sorry. I don't -- could you clarify what you mean by "at

23 these positions," please.

24 A. Some of them were at Borak; I don't know who exactly. The marks

25 that I've placed, they were there for sure.

Page 32

1 Q. All right. So some soldiers were in their positions and not

2 staying in their houses, but you don't know who they were, but those

3 soldiers normally stayed in the village. Is that what you're saying?

4 A. Yes, correct.

5 Q. And how many of those were there?

6 A. I'm not sure, five or six usually.

7 Q. Now, the photo you've marked on has got five crosses and nine

8 dots; that's a total of 14 people. And on five of the houses you've put a

9 cross and a dot. Does that indicate that it was a mixture of a civilian

10 and a soldier living -- or staying in the same house?

11 A. Yes. But a dot does not mean one person. I've placed a dot

12 wherever there were civilians no matter how many. Do you want me to use

13 dots to mark the locations of each single individuals who were there?

14 Q. Yes, please.

15 A. [Marks].

16 A. There you have it.

17 Q. Are there any Xs missing for soldiers?

18 A. I'm sure about these.

19 Q. Now, there's a number of houses in which you have not placed any

20 Xs or dots. Does that mean there was no one living in those houses? Or

21 does it mean you don't know?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What does it mean? The fact that you haven't put any marking on

24 it, what does that mean?

25 A. That means that some soldiers would go to Prozor sometimes to stay

Page 33

1 with their relatives or they were at positions, those two options. Should

2 I put two crosses wherever there were two soldiers and I'm sure about it?

3 Q. Yes, please.

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. All right. You've marked two crosses next to a dot. Whose house

6 was that one?

7 A. Kazo and Matko Ratkic, soldiers. Kazo Ratkic was with his wife; I

8 am positive about that. But that's all I know about it and that's why I

9 haven't placed any further marks.

10 MR. RE: I've finished with that.

11 May that be received into evidence.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's admitted into evidence.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The original of the photograph is Prosecution

15 Exhibit P348 and the one that's marked is Prosecution Exhibit P349.

16 MR. RE: That's the conclusion of the evidence in-chief.

17 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

18 Any cross-examination, Mr. Morrissey?

19 MR. MORRISSEY: There is, Your Honour, and I just wanted the

20 witness to -- I think I've been too slow. I wanted the witness to mark

21 something extra on that. Could I ask how long that will be until

22 that's -- would it be okay if I just inquired of the Court Deputy to

23 indicate when that will be able to be shown to the witness again. Is it

24 15 minutes, or half an hour?

25 THE REGISTRAR: One minute.

Page 34

1 MR. MORRISSEY: One minute. Well, I'll come back to it because

2 it's topical.

3 Anyway, thank you.

4 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:

5 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, as to the uniforms -- I've got some questions

6 about the HVO uniforms first of all.

7 Did your uniform have a camouflage pattern?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Was it somewhat more green than the -- than the Bosnian army

10 uniform?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Okay. Now, in -- did you join the HVO in 1991?

13 A. I think so, but I'm not positive. It was a long time ago.

14 Q. Yes, I understand. Did you join the HVO before the outbreak of

15 hostilities between the Bosnian army and the HVO? In other words, when

16 the common enemy was the -- was certain Serbian forces?

17 A. I don't understand the question, I'm afraid. Can you try to be a

18 bit more succinct, please.

19 Q. Of course I will.

20 Did the hostilities between the HVO and the Bosnian army break out

21 effectively at Prozor in the autumn of 1992?

22 A. I'm not sure. I can't remember.

23 Q. Okay. Did you go into action against any Serbian forces in 1991

24 or 1992?

25 A. I didn't fight, but I was at military positions several times.

Page 35

1 Q. Very well. And whereabouts was that?

2 A. Zvirnjaca. Or rather Ravasnica to be more specific.

3 Q. And in what zone of Bosnia is that position?

4 A. Near Vranj mountain, in the vicinity of Kupres.

5 Q. All right. Very well. And therefore you were a soldier who was

6 committed to the -- the goals of the HVO outside of Uzdol and in other

7 areas. Is that correct? In other words, you were prepared to travel to

8 fight.

9 A. I don't think the question has been phrased properly. Whenever I

10 travelled to Ravasnica or Kupres, we were together with the Muslims at the

11 same front line and we shared the trenches. There was no conflict between

12 Muslims and Croats at this time; that only happened later.

13 Q. Yes. I think we're agreeing furiously on this point, but that is

14 the fact: You were prepared to travel in order to fight with the HVO

15 alongside Muslim members of the Bosnian army. Is that accurate?

16 A. I'm afraid I don't understand your question. To attack or to

17 defend? Because these are two different questions, if you please.

18 Q. You were prepared to take part in combat activities outside of

19 Uzdol. Is that correct?

20 A. I was prepared to defend my home, wherever that was necessary.

21 Q. Of course. And in Uzdol it came about that military positions

22 were set up by the HVO confronting the Bosnian army, as you've indicated.

23 And I've got some questions for you about the front -- the arrangements at

24 the front.

25 First of all, was there a continuous, unbroken line of trenches

Page 36

1 that made up the HVO front line in the Uzdol area in 1993, or was the

2 situation that you had a number of fortified positions in and around the

3 hamlets of Uzdol?

4 A. I think there is at least five questions there. If you could

5 please ask one by one.

6 Q. Was there an unbroken line of trenches in Uzdol in September of

7 1993 making up your front line?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Incidentally, did you have any hand-grenades in your house when

10 this incident occurred?

11 A. No. I never had any hand-grenades.

12 Q. And were you shooting your Kalashnikov at soldiers from the

13 Bosnian army while wearing a tracksuit and no military uniform at all?

14 A. No, not a tracksuit.

15 Q. Well, if a witness said they saw you wearing a tracksuit and

16 shooting at -- or shooting your gun at that time, do you say that they're

17 completely wrong?

18 A. I would never say that they're completely wrong. There may have

19 been a situation like that, but I find that difficult to believe.

20 Q. Well, what about the -- on the morning when the killings took

21 place on the 14th of September, 1993? You were wearing a tracksuit on

22 that morning, weren't you?

23 A. I don't think so.

24 Q. Well, that's not a question of not thinking so. The question

25 is -- I'm putting to you as a positive proposition that you were. Do you

Page 37

1 agree, do you not know, are you unsure, or do you disagree?

2 A. I don't believe I was wearing a tracksuit, but there's no way I

3 can be positive about it.

4 Q. No, because your mother was in a good position to see exactly what

5 you were wearing that morning, standing right behind you as you shot the

6 gun. Correct?

7 A. I don't understand the question. Is what correct?

8 Q. Is it correct that your mother was in a very good position to see

9 what you were wearing that morning?

10 A. Yes, by all means.

11 Q. And she's a pretty honest, straightforward, sensible person, your

12 mom, is she?

13 MR. RE: I object to this. This is more appropriately a matter

14 for submission rather than cross-examination.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Morrissey, I believe you have to be more

16 patient with this witness. Sometimes it happens the Defence counsel might

17 get frustrated.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, my frustration is a completely

19 illegitimate basis for me to do anything frankly, but I have to ask the

20 questions.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, of course you're entitled to ask the questions,

22 but --

23 MR. MORRISSEY: I think it's not fair to make comments behind a

24 witness's back in closing speeches when you're not -- when you haven't got

25 the courage to put it to him in open court when he's here, so that's what

Page 38

1 I'm doing. And I would -- anyway, if my friend objects to that being

2 asked, I'm not going to persist with the question.

3 Q. But in any event your position is this: You just don't know

4 whether or not you were in uniform on the morning of the 14th of

5 September. Isn't that correct?

6 A. I'm nearly certainly that I was in fact wearing a camouflage

7 uniform on that morning.

8 Q. All right. Well, now, it was the rule, wasn't it, that HVO

9 soldiers who were on leave in the village had to keep their personal

10 weapon with them. Is that correct?

11 A. Yes, by all means. The weapons you signed for.

12 Q. And what was the reason you needed to keep the weapon with you in

13 the house?

14 A. It was perfectly normal.

15 Q. Well, thank you for that. But what was the reason why you had to

16 keep the weapon with you in the house? What was the rationale for that?

17 A. Why wouldn't I keep the weapon in the house? And where would I

18 have left it anyway?

19 Q. Look, one of the few benefits of being counsel at this Tribunal is

20 that you get to ask the questions. And I'm asking you why it was that you

21 had your weapon with you and why it was that HVO soldiers took their

22 weapons to their homes.

23 A. Because they wanted to be ready at all times and because the

24 Muslim line was nearby. There was a forest near the village and you could

25 never be safe enough.

Page 39

1 Q. Yes. And so, in short, you had the weapons there in case you were

2 attacked. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. And the reason why your mother was present in the

5 house with you was because she'd come to help you with cooking and

6 cleaning and generally to care for you. Is that correct?

7 A. Every mother looks after her child. Isn't that logical?

8 Q. Well, is that what your mother was doing when she came to the

9 village of Kriz and was present on the night of the 13th and the morning

10 of the 14th of September, looking after you, a combat soldier, by cooking

11 and cleaning?

12 A. She would clean. Every now and then she would cook something, but

13 there was no electricity anyway.

14 Q. Okay. Now, apart from the position of Borak which you've

15 indicated, what were the other positions where there were entrenchments

16 around the village of Uzdol? And by that I mean HVO entrenchments.

17 A. I was only ever at Komin, and I'm probably in no position to know

18 about all these positions and entrenchments. I didn't go that far from my

19 house really and there was no need.

20 Q. Yes. But, Mr. Stojanovic, you must have known where the other

21 ones are -- were in order to coordinate with them and not shoot at them by

22 accident.

23 So I ask my question again: Which other entrenchments, HVO

24 entrenchments, were there to your awareness in the

25 village of Uzdol?

Page 40

1 A. In the village itself or around Uzdol? Uzdol did not straddle the

2 front line. The front line ran near Uzdol.

3 Q. Yes, okay. Well, you indicated to the learned Prosecutor that

4 there were ten positions that you wanted to point out or that you're able

5 to point out, and I want you to give names to those ten positions.

6 A. I didn't say ten. That was precisely the reason I said I didn't

7 know all the positions. Maybe there were sometimes reasons to be in one

8 of those positions, but they were quite far apart.

9 Q. How far from the Borak position was the nearest neighbouring HVO

10 position?

11 A. It's very difficult for me to specify what the distance was as the

12 crow flies. Not very far, 400, 500 metres, thereabouts.

13 Q. What was the name of that position?

14 A. Zeljaca.

15 Q. And was that to the left or to the right of your Borak position as

16 you looked towards the Bosnian positions?

17 A. To the right.

18 Q. Okay. And what was the nearest position to your left?

19 A. HVO position?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. To the left, Gradac.

22 Q. Okay. And how far was the Gradac position?

23 A. It's really difficult for me to say.

24 Q. Approximately.

25 A. We had Brdo between us, and it's very difficult to say what the

Page 41

1 distance was.

2 Q. All right. And did you have a direct line of sight to those two

3 neighbouring positions or not?

4 A. Not both.

5 Q. To which one?

6 A. Zeljaca.

7 Q. Was your position at Borak attacked on the morning of the 14th?

8 A. I don't know that.

9 Q. Were there any soldiers from your village of Kriz in that position

10 at Borak on the morning of the 14th?

11 A. I don't know. Some of them were there or should have been there,

12 but I really don't know.

13 Q. Didn't any of them tell you whether or not they'd been there at

14 later times?

15 A. I never liked to talk about it, and I started to forget it all as

16 quickly as possible. And then later after 1994 I didn't live there, so I

17 really cannot reply to your question.

18 Q. Very well. In between your position and the neighbouring

19 positions, were there any forests or trees?

20 A. Yes, there were.

21 Q. Okay. And in short, were you aware of the possibility of soldiers

22 from the Bosnian army side infiltrating through the gaps between your

23 position and those on your left and right?

24 A. When you say "infiltrate," you mean penetrate, pass through?

25 Q. Yes.

Page 42

1 A. Well, yes, certainly.

2 Q. And do you -- sometimes did you send out patrols to cover those

3 gaps between your front line position and your neighbours?

4 A. Yes, we did.

5 Q. And you did that in order to make sure that soldiers from the

6 Bosnian army didn't infiltrate up to Kriz or other villages and come near

7 to the communications centre at Cer. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Because it is the fact, isn't it, that the battalion headquarters

10 was at Cer. Is that correct?

11 A. When you say "headquarters," how do you mean that? Do you mean

12 that all these soldiers should be there or what?

13 Q. No, I mean that that is the battalion headquarters. Is that right

14 or not?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. And that's where the tank was normally positioned. Isn't that

17 right?

18 A. I don't know whether it was normally there. And as to whether it

19 was there at all, I personally know that there was one there twice. And

20 that's all I can say.

21 Q. But you know that there was one there on this morning, and I

22 suggest to you that you know that because the crew of that tank were

23 killed. Do you agree with that?

24 A. I was not there and I cannot agree with that. I believe that is

25 more of an answer than a question.

Page 43

1 Q. Well, is your position this: You don't know whether there was a

2 tank at Cer and whether the crew of that tank were killed in the fighting

3 that very morning. Is that your position?

4 A. I heard later that they had been killed. I didn't see it myself,

5 and I cannot claim whether there -- there was a tank there that day

6 because I do not know that.

7 Q. Yes, okay. But in any event -- and furthermore, is it your

8 position that you simply didn't notice any shelling in or around the area

9 of Kriz coming from HVO artillery of various sorts when you were there on

10 the morning of the 14th?

11 A. Could you please clarify this question for me a bit so as to avoid

12 its containing the answer and allegations.

13 Q. I'm putting to you -- let me just make it quite clear. I'm

14 putting to you the allegation that there was in fact artillery fire from

15 various calibres landing on Kriz and the vicinity of Kriz during the time

16 that you were there. Now, do you agree with that allegation or do you

17 reject it?

18 A. Well, what's it to me that you're putting it to me as an

19 allegation? I told you that I didn't hear about it, that I don't know

20 about it, and what of it I really don't know. You're actually forcing me

21 to say something which I do not know for a fact is true.

22 Q. Well, you're not to be compelled by me to say anything; you just

23 say what you want to say. But I want you to look, please, at the --

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown -- just excuse

25 me one moment, please. It's Exhibit D318.

Page 44

1 Q. There's a document that's going to be shown to you now which is an

2 HVO combat report which has been tendered into evidence in this court.

3 You may or may not have seen it, but I'm going to ask you about the

4 accuracy of what it says.

5 Now, do you have on your screen here a combat report from the HVO

6 with a time -- situation at 0700 hours? Do you have that?

7 A. I do.

8 Q. Okay. Now, do you notice here that it says: "Heavy fighting is

9 underway. Our troops are asking for reinforcement. Since we didn't have

10 troops on the line, we sent out some of the troops that were planned to

11 take part in the assault on the aforementioned axis."

12 Do you see that?

13 A. I do not understand. If you could repeat it, and where is it

14 exactly?

15 Q. It will be the second paragraph of text starting with "at around

16 0600 hours." Do you have that part?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, I just want to ask you: Does this accord with your memory of

19 events, what is said in the third sentence and ongoing: "Heavy fighting

20 is underway" -- perhaps I should go back one step.

21 "While the artillery preparation was going on the MOS launched a

22 fierce attack on Uzdol. Heavy fighting is underway. Our troops are

23 asking for reinforcement. Since we did not have any reserve on this part

24 of the front line, we sent some of the troops which were planned to part

25 on the assault on the aforementioned axis."

Page 45

1 Do you see that?

2 A. Yes, I do see it.

3 Q. And as far as you know, is that accurate information that's

4 recorded in this situation report?

5 A. I don't know about this. I didn't write it. I've never seen it.

6 This is the first time that I see it, and that is all that I can say about

7 it, nor do I know who wrote it.

8 Q. Well, you can see down at the bottom Commander Colonel Zeljko

9 Siljeg. Who was he?

10 A. I never saw the person in question.

11 Q. That's okay. But who was he?

12 A. I don't know that either.

13 Q. You don't know who the commander was. Was he the commander of

14 your area?

15 A. Do you mean the area of Uzdol or ...

16 Q. Was he the commander of the Rama Brigade?

17 A. Well, I do not know that. Major Josip Prskalo was then in charge

18 of where I was, and that is all I can say on that score.

19 Q. Well, can you confirm that Major Prskalo was in charge of the

20 3rd Battalion of the Rama Brigade with his headquarters based in the

21 school at Cer?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown the next page of

25 this document.

Page 46

1 Q. We're now moving to a report at 8.00, combat report from the HVO

2 at 8.00. I'll ask you to have a look at that.

3 Okay. Do you have that now in front of you. "Interim report

4 situation at 0800 hours"?

5 Do you have that in front of you now?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. All right. Okay. Now, there's some material in the first few

8 sentences that I'm not interested by. But I would like you to go to the

9 passage beginning with: "Heavy fighting is underway at Uzdol."

10 Do you have that passage? Do you see that?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge Uzdol refers to the collection of

13 hamlets, Kriz, Zelenike, Rajici, Cer, and a couple of smaller ones. Is

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes, it is.

16 Q. The report goes on to say: "We are opening fire from all

17 artillery and tank pieces. We are sending reinforcements. The MOS are at

18 50 metres from the school. They are encircles the hamlets of Kriz and

19 Zelenike."

20 Is that accurate -- that information accurate as far as you're

21 concerned or not?

22 A. I really don't know.

23 Q. Well, at 8.00 in the morning, to your knowledge, were the HVO

24 opening fire from all artillery and tank pieces?

25 A. Not as far as I know. My only concern was for my own self to get

Page 47

1 out of there, and that is all that I know.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Can we go on to the next part of that order,

3 please, which is a situation report at I think 10.00. It's the following

4 page one, please.

5 Q. Now, do you have in front of you now a situation report at 1000

6 hours?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Okay. Do you read this passage here: "In the Uzdol sector,

9 fighting is still underway. The MOS, Muslim defence forces, stormed into

10 parts of Kriz and Zelenike hamlets. Uzdol was under a threat of becoming

11 completely surrounded. After the introduction of fresh troops, the MOS

12 attack subsided in strength. The command from Uzdol reported to Scipe

13 that the Ustasha were reinforcing in the Uzdol area and that they should

14 be hit with something. We have casualties, troops and civilians, and for

15 the time being we do not have exact information. We have captured several

16 MOS members. The commander of the Rama Brigade has been ordered to keep

17 them."

18 Do you see that passage there?

19 A. Yes, I do.

20 Q. Incidentally, what happened to those prisoners; do you know?

21 A. I think that this is not a question for me because I was wounded

22 at that time. I was in the military hospital and then I was transferred

23 to Split. I can tell you when that was; it was between 2.00 and 3.00. So

24 I don't think that these are questions that you should be asking me. They

25 are unnecessary, at least that is my opinion, because I have nothing

Page 48

1 whatsoever to do with that. If you want me to tell you how much time I

2 spent in Split at the hospital there, I can also give you those.

3 Q. Well, what bears on the case here is how much time you spent in

4 Uzdol before you were wounded. And were you still in Uzdol at 915 hours,

5 0915 hours?

6 A. At 9.15, yes, I think so. I was still there.

7 Q. Okay. Well, do you see this passage now -- let's keep moving.

8 Don't worry about the captured soldiers now since you don't know about

9 that.

10 Do you see this part: "The situation is improving and MOS attacks

11 are being repelled. Encirclement has been avoided. In the school where

12 the command and CV, communications centre, were, an attack was repelled.

13 We are still firing with artillery at the request of the sector commander

14 in Uzdol on selected targets, Here, Kute, Scipe."

15 Now, was that going on when you were still there?

16 A. I do not understand the question. How should I know whether they

17 were being attacked up there or not? I only know where I was.

18 Q. Yes. But what about the hearing the gunfire of the HVO guns?

19 Could you hear that or not?

20 A. That was a very long time ago and I cannot give you an answer to

21 that question. I -- well, I just do not remember and that is the best

22 answer that I can give you.

23 Q. Well, is it the case that in the time between when you woke up and

24 the time you were wounded, you were at all times in a very stressful and

25 frightening situation. Is that correct?

Page 49

1 A. No, I wasn't terrified. I didn't have all my wits about me; I was

2 surprised. That's the best way to put it. I did know where I was and

3 what I wanted to do and where I wanted to go.

4 Q. Of course. But in terms of remembering whether you could hear the

5 sound of artillery fire and so on, what I suggest to you - and you can

6 agree with this or disagree - I suggest to you that you just can't

7 remember what was happening with artillery on that morning with any

8 accuracy. Am I right or wrong?

9 A. You're right. As far as artillery's concerned, I cannot recall

10 it.

11 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I just want to now return to the structure

12 of the -- or the situation in the village of Kriz prior to the attacks.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown photo P --

14 sorry, Exhibit P349; that's the exhibit that he's already marked.

15 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, I'm just going to show you that document that you

16 marked earlier on with the crosses and dots to indicate civilians and HVO

17 members.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Now, could the witness please be given some

19 assistance here.

20 Q. I just want you to mark -- well -- and perhaps before you mark

21 anything, I'll just ask you the question first.

22 You indicated to the Prosecutor that you had marked the soldiers

23 that you were certain about. Are there other houses there where the

24 soldiers sometimes stayed but you can't be sure they were present on the

25 morning of the 14th?

Page 50

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Very well. Would you mind drawing a small circle with an open

3 centre at -- well, I'm -- it's suggested to me that you could draw a

4 diamond. I'm sorry about this. These documents will be tendered later.

5 Perhaps draw a small triangle or diamond to indicate where the

6 houses where soldiers sometimes stayed but you can't be sure whether they

7 were present on that day.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Re, do you agree that the Defence counsel

9 ask the witness to draw on the photos which has already been admitted into

10 evidence?

11 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm sorry, Your Honours, could I just help. I

12 might be able to assist here. I had in mind to tender it as a separate

13 exhibit. I think this document is already in, and if I tendered it, it

14 would be a different exhibit altogether. And I think that would be the --

15 I mean, I agree with Your Honour. That's what should happen.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Might I inquire of the Court Deputy: Is that

18 what's going to happen?

19 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, thank you. Okay. Yes, I'm not allowed to

21 write on Prosecution exhibits; I agree, Your Honour.

22 Q. Now, sorry about that, Mr. Stojanovic.

23 Now, okay, are you able to -- are you in a position to draw a

24 small triangle in the houses where soldiers sometimes stayed but you're

25 not sure were there on this occasion?

Page 51

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you. I just wonder if you wouldn't mind indicating

3 the five blue marks that you've put on that document now, can you name the

4 people, moving from left to right across the screen, who were soldiers who

5 sometimes stayed in those houses.

6 A. Yes, I can.

7 Q. Just starting from the left would you say the name of the person

8 in the furthest left house, by which I mean the HVO soldier who sometimes

9 stayed there.

10 A. Ilija Kovcalija.

11 Q. All right. Now, moving to the right, the next one.

12 A. Niko Ratkic, Fabijan Ratkic, Marko Stojanovic, Mijo Stojanovic.

13 And there is another house that you cannot see.

14 Q. Could you draw an arrow pointing to where that house is?

15 A. Well, yes, approximately.

16 Q. That's okay. And who was it who lived in that house which is out

17 of the picture but the arrow is drawn there?

18 A. My aunt, her son, and the -- and the -- she also had another son

19 and a daughter, but I'm not sure whether they were all there at all times.

20 But these were the people who lived there.

21 Q. Could I just ask you to draw a small triangle just like you have

22 next -- on the other things next to that arrow so that later on when we

23 look at this picture we can be sure what we're referring to.

24 A. [Marks].

25 Q. Okay. Thank you for that.

Page 52

1 MR. MORRISSEY: I now tender that document -- offer that document

2 for tender.

3 MR. RE: There's no objection.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It's admitted into the evidence.

5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D350.


7 Q. All right. Now, I have some questions about the age groups of

8 fighters.

9 The HVO itself, what was the age group range of soldiers on active

10 duty in the HVO in the village of Kriz and also, secondly, in the area of

11 Uzdol generally?

12 A. I'm unable to tell you. I would have to be the registrar there in

13 order to be able to give you an answer.

14 Q. Kazo Zelenika, the registrar?

15 A. So I would have to be he in order to know how old these people

16 were. I really don't know that.

17 Q. All right. Well, what about an organisation called the home

18 guard? What sort of people were in the home guard in the village of Kriz?

19 A. I was not in charge of the home guards, and I really do not know

20 from where the orders came that they should be in existence.

21 Q. Okay. Well, just bearing in mind that you were a person who had

22 been in the HVO since 1991 and that this was your home village, what was

23 the age group of the people from Kriz who were in the home guard?

24 A. In the home guards? I really don't know what kind of a duty they

25 performed. I really don't know that there was anybody guarding me. The

Page 53

1 question is whether there were home guards, and I said that I never got

2 any documentation or anything to that effect from anyone in the sense that

3 those people needed to be there or had to be established there.

4 Q. Well, let me ask you the question a different way.

5 In the village of Kriz on the 14th of September, 1993, who was in

6 the home guard?

7 A. I really fail to see how I can answer your question or what is it

8 that you are seeking with it from me.

9 Q. Just the names of the people who were in the home guard.

10 A. I don't think I can answer that question. I've never seen a

11 document to that effect, to the effect that anyone was in the home guard

12 at all or needed to be there.

13 Q. Didn't you ask any of them, any of the older men in the village?

14 A. Ask about what? Whether they were these home guards?

15 Q. Did you ask any of them whether they were in the home guard or

16 not?

17 A. No. I never asked anyone.

18 Q. How long had you been in the village of Uzdol prior to the tragic

19 events on the 14th of September, 1993?

20 A. What do you mean how long? Wartime or generally speaking? How

21 long I resided there for.

22 Q. Wartime will do.

23 A. I can't be specific about how long. It's been a long time. There

24 may be documents around to indicate that more accurately, but this way

25 about a year perhaps. That's what I think at least.

Page 54

1 Q. And were there any children of school age living in the hamlets

2 comprising Uzdol during -- on the day of the battle of Uzdol in the

3 morning, 14th of September, 1993?

4 A. I know Kazo Zelenika was there. I'm not sure if he was with all

5 of his children, but some of his children were there.

6 Q. Well, to your knowledge young kids were present in various of the

7 hamlets. I mentioned Stjepan Zelic, Jadranka Zelenika, and Marija Zelic.

8 Do you agree that they were all school-aged children.

9 A. Andrija Zelenika. I don't know anyone named that. Is that

10 mistake perhaps?

11 Q. I'm not sure if we heard each other correctly there.

12 The people I mentioned are Stjepan Zelic, Marija Zelic --

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. -- and Jadranka Zelenika.

15 A. Jadranka was there; I'm positive about that. She's a relative of

16 mine

17 Q. Okay. Well, although they were school-aged children, the school

18 wasn't functioning but in fact was a military command post and

19 communications centre, wasn't it, at that time?

20 A. What do you mean the school wasn't functioning. There were no

21 classes for those kids. Is that what you mean?

22 Q. That's what I'm asking you. Were classes being held at the

23 school?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And in July of 1993, had the HVO leadership or the political

Page 55

1 leadership instructed civilians to leave the village and go to Prozor?

2 A. Excuse me, can you just repeat the year.

3 Q. 1993, July.

4 A. I can't remember specifically whether it was then, but I am

5 familiar with the order.

6 Q. Okay. But whatever the date was of that order, there had been an

7 order before the 14th of September, 1993, that civilians should leave

8 Uzdol because of its proximity to combat -- sorry, because of its

9 proximity to the Bosnian army. Is that correct?

10 A. I didn't see it in writing, but I did hear about it. There was an

11 order of some sort, but I didn't see it. I didn't see the document

12 itself.

13 Q. That's okay. Anyway, you've indicated what you knew, but you also

14 knew that many of the citizens and civilians in particular had in fact

15 left the village or the villages and gone to Prozor. Is that correct?

16 A. Yes. Prozor, Rumboci, depending, I'm not sure. Many people did

17 leave. That's true.

18 Q. And the vast majority of those who left were children, old people,

19 and mothers. Is that correct?

20 A. Most of the old people stayed behind as far as I remember and most

21 of the younger ones had been evacuated.

22 Q. The kids had been evacuated?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. As far as I know most of them.

Page 56

1 Q. And during your -- during September of 1993, the village of Uzdol

2 consisting of the hamlets that were there was effectively an armed village

3 ready for combat if attacked by the Bosnian army. Is that correct?

4 A. When you say "armed," what exactly do you have in mind? Speaking

5 for myself, I only had an automatic rifle, and I'm not aware that there

6 were any heavy weapons around in the village of Kriz. Had there been any,

7 I would have known.

8 Q. Well, could we --

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness just be shown Exhibit D350

10 again.

11 Q. I'm just going to show you that --

12 THE REGISTRAR: It's on the screen.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: It's on the screen already. Yes, thank you.

14 Q. Well, having a look at that photograph, do you have on the screen

15 the photograph that you marked with the diamonds -- with the triangles,

16 dots and houses?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Most of the houses had a soldier living there. Is that correct?

19 A. Those that I've marked, yes.

20 Q. And the soldiers were required at all times to be armed and to

21 have their personal weapon and ammunition with them. Is that correct?

22 A. Each man made his own decision, depending on how safe they felt.

23 I've never seen an order to this effect. It was a matter of common sense.

24 Q. Just a moment. You had your Kalashnikov with you because you were

25 told you had to have your Kalashnikov with you. Isn't that right?

Page 57

1 A. Well, yes.

2 Q. Who told you that --

3 A. No one asked me to leave my weapon anywhere after my shift was

4 over. No one ever told me that. It struck me as logical that I should

5 bring it home.

6 Q. All right. But you've indicated you didn't have any hand-grenades

7 with you, but you certainly knew about other people who had hand-grenades

8 in their house, didn't you?

9 A. Can you please stop asking questions of this kind. I think

10 there's more suggestion in these questions than actual questions. I never

11 said that, and I never saw anyone from Kriz with a hand-grenade. If there

12 were any around, then certainly it was not in the same place where I was.

13 And if you could please stop asking questions of this nature because there

14 are too many answers being suggested.

15 Q. Yes. Well, if there's a proposition I put to you, you are -- you

16 have the full right to say yes or no and to disagree. You're not obliged

17 to agree with me, but I do ask you to respond to the questions when

18 they're asked.

19 Now, what I'm putting to you is whether or not you saw any

20 hand-grenades, you knew that your comrades from the HVO who lived in the

21 village, some of them had hand-grenades with them. Now, is that true or

22 is that not true?

23 A. Not true.

24 Q. Were you aware of any civilians having grenades in their houses?

25 A. No.

Page 58

1 Q. Were you aware of whether the Zelics, who lived at the top end of

2 the village of Zelenike, had any hand-grenades in their house on the

3 morning of the 14th of September, 1993?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Were you aware whether Anica Stojanovic, whose body you were shown

6 in a photograph earlier on, had any weapons in her house?

7 A. No. I didn't see her in possession of any sort of weapon.

8 Q. Very well. Now, I want to take you to the morning of the 13th

9 [sic] of September. On this occasion you've indicated that you were

10 awoken and that you went outside and noticed gunfire. Now --

11 A. That I was awoken by gunfire, not that someone shook me awake,

12 meaning a person.

13 Q. No, no. Well, I didn't -- sorry, don't take it that way. That's

14 not what I meant.

15 MR. RE: Can I just correct. The transcript says the 13th. I

16 didn't hear my learned friend say it. I think he means the 14th. Can

17 that be corrected?

18 MR. MORRISSEY: It should be the 14th so if I said it, I

19 apologise. At that line, it's line 16, it should be the 14th, and I

20 apologise if I have misled those producing the transcript.

21 Q. Returning to the questions that I've got to ask is you gave a time

22 that you woke up. And what I want to ask you is: What was the lighting

23 conditions when you awoke? Was it fully light, fully daylight? Was it

24 still dark? Or was it somewhere in between?

25 A. Visibility was quite good.

Page 59

1 Q. Yes. Are you able to comment on my question, though? Had the sun

2 risen, for example?

3 A. I can't say. Where I come from when the sun rises it's already

4 quite late.

5 Q. Yes. Okay. Well, now it's the fact, isn't it, that you noticed

6 bullets hitting your house and adjoining structures near your house. Is

7 that correct?

8 A. Correct.

9 Q. And your house contained an armed HVO soldier. Is that correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And you yourself started firing back in the direction that you

12 understood the shooting to be coming from. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, but not right away. First I tried to determine whether the

14 firing came from positions from which no one had fired before or from the

15 usual positions.

16 Q. Okay. Now, you had already been warned the previous day that

17 there might well be an attack by the Bosnian army tomorrow, namely

18 the 14th. Is that correct or not?

19 A. I'm afraid I don't understand the question.

20 Q. Well, I'll put it another way. Did your leadership --

21 A. Before the 14th --

22 Q. On the 12th or 13th, either of those two days, did your

23 leadership, anyone from your leadership, tell you that there was the

24 danger of an imminent attack from the Bosnian army?

25 A. Yes.

Page 60

1 Q. Who was it who told you that?

2 A. I can't remember that.

3 Q. Did you tell your mom, Go home. There's a danger of attack.

4 A. I used to tell her before to come home under no conditions. I

5 never told her to come home.

6 Q. No, no. But did you tell her to go back to -- I'm sorry. I

7 shouldn't have used the word "home" there, and that's my fault.

8 When you heard the news that there was likely to be an attack --

9 that there was a possibility of an attack the next day, did you tell your

10 mother leave the house and go back to Prozor or wherever it was that she

11 could find a place to stay?

12 A. As far as I remember, I told her a day or two previously, but I

13 can't be specific. I did tell her that.

14 Q. Okay. And why didn't she go?

15 A. She should know.

16 Q. What did she tell you about that? When you told her that she

17 ought to go, what did she tell you?

18 A. I can't remember. I don't think she told me anything specific, or

19 at least I can't remember what exactly she said. I think she said

20 nothing.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe it's a proper time for us to take a break.

22 Yes, and we'll resume at quarter to 6.00.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 --- Recess taken at 5.17 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.

Page 61

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Chana.

2 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honours. Very briefly a small matter I wish

3 to raise with this Chamber, and this is in respect of the provisional

4 release motion filed by the Defence.


6 MS. CHANA: The Prosecution's position is, Your Honour, that we do

7 not object to that, and we will leave it entirely to the discretion of

8 this Court. To is that extent, we're not going to be putting in,

9 obviously, a written motion, if you accept our oral submission on it.

10 JUDGE LIU: Of course. I think that's the best way to proceed.

11 Yes.

12 MS. CHANA: Thank you, Your Honour. That is what I wanted to

13 bring up.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much for your information.

15 And could we have the witness, please. [Witness stands down at

16 break]

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, please sit down, Witness.

19 Mr. Morrissey.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

22 Just before the break we were -- I was asking you about when you

23 went outside. And when you went outside did you hear the sound of an

24 anti-aircraft gun being fired from Konjsko hill?

25 A. From Konjsko hill, yes.

Page 62

1 Q. Just excuse me one moment, I'm sorry.

2 Okay. And who had positions on Konjsko hill?

3 A. The Muslims.

4 Q. So is it your account that that was a Muslim anti-aircraft gun

5 that was being fired from the position on Konjsko hill?

6 A. I can't state with certainty, but it was a gun. It was something

7 stronger than an automatic weapon or a machine-gun.

8 Q. Very well. Now, you've indicated already to my learned friend the

9 conversation that you had with your mother. But you also said that you

10 spoke -- you called out across the path or across the way to another house

11 where Ivan Stojanovic lived, who was a boy who was aged about 15. Is that

12 correct?

13 A. Yes, that's correct, about 15.

14 Q. Okay. What did Ivan say to you during that conversation?

15 A. I can't remember. I don't think he actually said anything. He

16 was at the window one moment and then he was just gone.

17 Q. All right. And did you see him again that morning?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Now, soon after that you saw five soldiers on the terrace of a

20 nearby house. Is that correct?

21 A. I'm not sure how soon, but it certainly was after that.

22 Q. Yes. Now, what I'm going to ask you about is questions about the

23 death of Mrs. Anica Stojanovic, okay?

24 And first of all I want to ask you: Did you see these five

25 individuals that you saw before or after -- first of all, did you see them

Page 63

1 before Anica Stojanovic was shot, according to you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. And when you saw them, was she in view on that first

4 occasion?

5 A. No.

6 Q. All right. And did you look away from those five and look to see

7 where your mother was?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. All right. Now, when you looked back, did you then notice Anica

10 Stojanovic on the ground in the position that you've already described,

11 half lying and half sitting?

12 A. Yes. I'm not sure if that was right after, but I looked back

13 several times only briefly. It was difficult for any details to register.

14 I had to look all around me.

15 Q. Yes. But I'm concentrating on the situation of Anica Stojanovic

16 now. Did you see her making her way to the position where she ultimately

17 was shot, according to you, or did you just notice her there just one of

18 your glances?

19 A. I didn't notice her making her way there. I -- when I noticed

20 her, she was already in that half sitting position, and there was one

21 soldier next to her. I didn't notice any other soldiers there.

22 Q. No. So of the five soldiers that you'd seen previously, there was

23 only one left at the time when Anica was visible. Is that correct?

24 A. I'm not sure if he was one of them or if he had arrived from

25 elsewhere. I can't say.

Page 64

1 Q. Okay. But there was only one soldier visible. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Now, you didn't hear that individual -- sorry, I'll

4 take that question back.

5 You didn't see or hear that individual firing any shots at Anica

6 before the shot that you actually observed. Is that correct?

7 A. Correct.

8 Q. Okay. And how many metres away was this man? It must have been

9 quite close, 20 metres or 30 metres. Is that accurate?

10 A. I think three metres maximum.

11 Q. Yes. Well, my question was an absolute disaster then. What I

12 meant was how far away from you? And I apologise for that inaccuracy.

13 20, 30 metres from you?

14 A. About 15, to the best of my recollection, give or take a metre or

15 two.

16 Q. So --

17 A. It wasn't over 30 metres; that much is certain.

18 Q. Okay. Well, I understand. And the gunshot sound therefore was a

19 pretty loud and horrible sound when you heard it, is that correct, and I

20 mean the one where Anica was shot. Is that correct?

21 A. It was just a shot fired by an automatic weapon, just a single

22 shot, nothing special, fired at point-blank range.

23 Q. Okay. But you didn't -- you've indicated that you didn't hear or

24 see any shots fired by him before that. And I want to ask you just

25 immediately after you say you saw this shooting, did you hear him or see

Page 65

1 him fire any other shots at her?

2 A. No, not before that single shot and not after.

3 Q. No. All right. And I think I had better confront you with this

4 and ask you for your comment about it. If it turns out she's been shot

5 three times, you've just got no idea when the other two shots were fired.

6 Is that correct?

7 A. That's correct.

8 Q. All right. Now, the fact is that at that moment you were 15 --

9 you have indicated between 15 and 30 metres away. You had a loaded

10 Kalashnikov and you still had bullets in it. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And what you said -- and what you said in this court is that you

13 fired that gun up into the air. Is that the truth really?

14 A. Later, yes.

15 Q. Why didn't you just shoot this man?

16 A. I wasn't there to kill someone. I just wanted to save my life.

17 If I'd fired at them, I would have been under threat by others, those that

18 I'd seen earlier, and that was the reason I decided not to fire at him.

19 Q. But you'd already fired shots in anger that morning, hadn't you?

20 In other words -- perhaps I should take that back, that was a saying. Not

21 shots in anger, but you had fired shots that morning at targets, hadn't

22 you, at the woods, for example?

23 A. At the woods, yes, precisely.

24 Q. Yes. And you weren't shooting at the trees, you were shooting at

25 the soldiers that you thought were there in the trees. Correct?

Page 66

1 A. I returned fire in the direction from which fire was coming. I

2 was firing at the enemy, whoever they may have been.

3 Q. Yes. Well, if your story's true about Anica Stojanovic and what

4 you saw, you could have been under no illusions that this large man

5 dressed in green was the enemy. Do you agree with that?

6 MR. RE: I object. I object to the preamble, "if your story is

7 true." So that is completely unnecessary. There's a proper way of

8 cross-examining and we can do without those gratuitous comments in my

9 respectful submission.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Without that preamble your question still

11 stands.


13 Q. Well, I don't know if you remember the question, Witness, so I'll

14 ask it to you again.

15 When you saw this man, this large man shooting an innocent woman

16 in the head, according to you, you must have thought this man was the

17 enemy. Correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And you must have known that there was going to be no mercy shown

20 to you if you were caught. Correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And earlier on you had returned fire at the enemy that was

23 shooting at you. Correct?

24 A. Not in the same direction.

25 Q. In fact, you were prepared to shoot, as you've indicated, in the

Page 67

1 air to scare the enemy away. Is that correct?

2 A. Well, yes, something to that effect.

3 Q. Okay. So you didn't lie quietly as a mouse in order to avoid

4 detection, but rather you shot the weapon. Is that correct?

5 A. Yes, and after that I did lie quietly.

6 Q. But is that really true that you saw this large green man shoot

7 Anica Stojanovic in cold blood dead and yet being 15 to 30 metres away you

8 just didn't shoot him. Is that the truth?

9 A. It is the truth. I did not shoot at him.

10 Q. It is the truth, though, that the remaining civilians -- I put

11 this to you as a proposition; you can agree or disagree. I'm putting to

12 you it's the truth that many of the older people in the village had

13 weapons even though they weren't in the regular HVO unit. Is that true?

14 A. No, I do not agree and I don't know in fact.

15 Q. I'm going to ask that a passage of video be played to the witness

16 now. This comes from P312 and it is cued to a particular spot.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, by arrangement with the Prosecutor,

18 they are going to play through this facility that they used today that

19 passage.

20 Q. Now, I want you to look at this passage and also listen to this

21 passage. It lasts for about a minute, I think.

22 [Videotape played]

23 MR. RE: It appears we have no sound. We need volume from where.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I think if the volume is turned up

Page 68

1 to full we might still get no sound, but let's see.

2 [Videotape played]

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, could we indicate we don't think

4 it's a problem with the system; we think there is no sound on this video.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay. Well, that will suffice for our purposes

7 now.

8 Q. Now, let me just ask you a couple of questions about that.

9 First of all, who is the elderly gentleman in the brown jumper who

10 is depicted in that photograph -- in that passage?

11 A. He is Josip Zelenika.

12 Q. And where did Josip Zelenika live?

13 A. In Zelenike as far as I know.

14 Q. Did Josip Zelenika appear to you in that photograph to be dressed

15 in civilian clothes?

16 A. Yes. He was dressed in civilian clothes.

17 Q. Very well. Thank you.

18 MR. RE: Before you go on, can I just indicate for the record, so

19 that it is clear, that is at timer at 31.41, and perhaps it should be on

20 the record which clip was actually played to the witness.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you very much.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: The passage, as we understands it, starts at 30.30

23 and goes through to 31.36. That's the passage.

24 Now, Your Honours, could I just indicate before I go to the next

25 set of questions --

Page 69

1 Q. Just excuse me one moment, Mr. Stojanovic.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: There is no sound on that passage at all, and that

3 the transcript that has been provided also reflects that.

4 But now I would ask that the audio/visual assistants in this court

5 please play a videotape which is prepared which -- Your Honours, this

6 videotape as we understand it was provided by the Prosecutors to the

7 Defence at an earlier stage in this trial. And I wonder if that could now

8 be played. It's a minute long approximately.

9 [Videotape played]

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Could we just start there for a moment. I

11 apologise. We might have to start this again. We don't have any picture

12 here on the screen at the moment.

13 Q. Could I just ask, please, Mr. Stojanovic, do you have a picture?

14 MR. MORRISSEY: We do now have a picture. We're going to have to

15 start now from the start, however, if that's okay.

16 [Videotape played]

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, as indicated -- stop there, please.

18 Stop.

19 Your Honours, we're going to have to ask for, and I apologise for

20 doing this, an interpretation, if it's possible to be done, from the

21 interpretation booth of what they're hearing here. There is no transcript

22 available of this. There's one particular passage that we have a

23 transcript about, but we'll just ask if the - and we apologise for doing

24 this on a short-notice sort of a way - if that can be done.

25 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, when this is played in a moment, I'm going to ask

Page 70

1 you to listen closely to what Josip says, and then at the end I'll ask you

2 to comment about it.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Could that now be played, please.

4 [Videotape played]

5 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Up there in the north everything is

6 on fire. Well, you can see I was here. I threw it here, the rifle.

7 "Who took it away?

8 "I don't know.

9 "Did they enter your house?

10 "I don't know. They didn't take anything away from the house.

11 And the rifle was drawn here. You can look for it around here. It is 950

12 marks that is in there. Here is a bag. No, the money is not here. So

13 now they have found the documents and look like they are taken out there

14 so it can be seen. Well, there was also a coloured box with some

15 Deutschmarks in it.

16 "Where was your wife?" --

17 Sorry, the interpreter can't make out anything.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, that's the passage that we

19 wanted to play, so it can be stopped there, although if anyone wants to

20 play it further, the tape's available and we can provide it and will be

21 tendering it. Thank you.

22 Q. Very well. Did you hear Josip, the elderly man depicted there,

23 referring to a rifle?

24 A. Yeah -- yes.

25 Q. Okay. Did you know him to own a rifle?

Page 71

1 A. No, no, I didn't.

2 Q. Did you know any of the senior citizens of the area of Uzdol to

3 own a rifle?

4 A. No. I don't recall anyone having a rifle.

5 Q. Did you ever notice Josip, the man who was depicted there, to have

6 a rifle before?

7 A. No, no, never.

8 Q. Thank you.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, I tender that videotape that

10 was provided to us. Offer it for tender, I'm sorry.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

12 MR. RE: We don't object, but could it be identified. It appears

13 to be a copy of P312 from, is that correct, from whatever it was that we

14 played before, 30.32 to 31.40.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, we don't think it's a copy of that.

17 We think P312 is probably a copy of this. We don't know what the

18 situation is as to what's a copy of what. What we can say is that we were

19 provided that document that was shown there with full sound by the OTP.

20 We want to tender it separately because it's got the full sound.

21 MR. RE: I don't object. We need some identifier, like an ERN or

22 something. We don't know when it was provided or which one it was.

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let's say that we'll have this videotape

24 admitted into the evidence at this stage. Then we'll check and compare

25 with the previous one. If they're exactly the same with the picture as

Page 72

1 well as with the sound, I don't think we need to admit two similar pieces

2 of evidence.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour. That's -- it's undesirable to

4 have two identical documents tendered, and I agree with that.

5 JUDGE LIU: Maybe the Court Deputy could give it a number at this

6 stage.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D351.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, in due course the issue of the chain

9 of custody of these -- each of the two can be clarified, of course, but it

10 looks as if it needs to be clarified because the one we have has got

11 sound, and it has got sound about a matter of relative importance when you

12 come to consider what the situation in the village was and whether the

13 civilians were armed or not. So we don't know what the situation is, and

14 the Prosecution will probably provide an explanation for it in due course.

15 JUDGE LIU: Well, we have already made a ruling that it is

16 admitted into the evidence.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour. As the Court pleases.

18 Q. Well, thank. And anyway is your position this, Mr. Stojanovic,

19 that as far as the older citizens in the village having guns, you never

20 saw any and you don't know anything about it?

21 A. I do not remember that they had -- the older citizens had any

22 arms; the soldiers did.

23 Q. Yes. And -- very well. I've now nearly reached the end of the

24 cross-examination here. I'm not going to take you over everything that

25 you were asked.

Page 73

1 I'm just going to take you now to the situation after you ran

2 by -- you passed by your mother on the road and you thought that she was

3 deceased. And then you went passed the body of Ante Stojanovic.

4 I just want to ask you about the position of the body of Ante

5 Stojanovic. How far from that body were you when you ran -- when you were

6 escaping from Kriz down to the creek?

7 A. How far was the body from the house or ...

8 Q. How far from the body was you when you saw it [sic]? I mean Ante

9 Stojanovic.

10 A. I cannot remember that. Some 15 or 20 metres, I believe, but I

11 cannot be sure. I wasn't near enough.

12 Q. All right. And when the Prosecution questioned you about whether

13 the body was in geographically the same location on the film as it was

14 when you saw it, you answered in the affirmative to that question. But as

15 to whether the body had been moved to some degree or not, you are simply

16 not able to comment, and I mean moved between the time when you saw it, in

17 flight, and the time when the video was taken. Is that correct or not?

18 A. I only know that he lay on his stomach. Whether he had been

19 moved, I really don't know. When I saw him, he was lying face down on his

20 stomach, and that is what I said.

21 Q. Yes. Now, when you reached the creek you indicated that you met

22 with Luka, Mato and Marko Stojanovic and Lucija Ratkic, and you mentioned

23 two other people whose names you couldn't recall right now. I want to ask

24 you: The two other people that you met, were they HVO soldiers or were

25 they other people?

Page 74

1 A. I'm sorry if I made a mistake. Lucija Ratkic is the surname. I

2 apologise.

3 Q. I don't think you made a mistake. If there's any pronunciation

4 mistakes, you can attribute them to me without any problems.

5 But in any event, the other two people who were there you couldn't

6 recall them. What I'm asking you is: Were they soldiers? Were they old

7 people? What do you say about them?

8 A. They were two elderly people, an old man and an old woman, but

9 they were not a married couple; of that I'm sure. But -- but then I'm not

10 sure whether it was exactly at that same place where I saw these other

11 people that I saw the two of them.

12 Q. That's okay. Just doing the best you can to remember now, was it

13 your impression at the time that these two elderly civilians had fled and

14 taken refuge at the creek with the soldiers? In other words, had they

15 arrived there together or not?

16 A. I picked them up much before the creek, not far from the house of

17 Ante Stojanovic, and they were all together as far as I can recall.

18 Q. So what you had was a group of mixed civilians and soldiers

19 fleeing away from the village of Kriz. Is that correct?

20 A. That is correct.

21 Q. All right. Anyone who shot at the soldiers was likely to hit

22 civilians. Correct?

23 MR. RE: How can he answer that?

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, he was there, that's how, and I would ask

25 him to answer that question.

Page 75

1 MR. RE: It does sound rather speculative. It depends what you're

2 shooting with.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: That's all right. I withdraw the question. I'm

4 going to deal with it another way.

5 Q. That group of people, of mixed soldiers and civilians who were

6 walking down towards the creek together that you've described, how far

7 apart were you standing from each other as you went down the hill there?

8 A. Well, we were in a group together rather than in a row, in a

9 column.

10 Q. Okay. So a person shooting at a soldier in that group would have

11 a good chance of hitting a civilian as well. Do you agree with that?

12 A. Well, depending on the firearm used and how good a shot that

13 person was.

14 Q. Okay. And as far as you recall, did the soldiers make any effort

15 to separate the civilians out from them as they went down the hill? I

16 mean the HVO soldiers.

17 A. Well, as far as I can recall there were no major efforts aimed at

18 separating them. We did not try to drive them away.

19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure what the witness

20 said in fact.


22 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, because the interpreter had an area of

23 uncertainty, would you mind repeating your answer. We're not criticising

24 the answer, but it may be that the interpreter missed it. So would you

25 just reply as best you can once again, please.

Page 76

1 Let me -- perhaps I can help another way. I'll read to you what

2 the interpreter said, how the interpreter interpreted it, and you tell me

3 if that's accurate or if there's something you want to add.

4 I asked you the question: "Okay. And as far as you recall, did

5 the soldiers make any effort to separate the civilians out from them as

6 they went down the hill. I mean the HVO soldiers."

7 And you then replied: "Well, as far as I can recall, there was no

8 major efforts aimed at separating them. We did not try to drive them

9 away."

10 That's what the interpreter got. Does that reflect accurately

11 what you wanted to say?

12 A. Well, quite correctly. In other words, we did not force them to

13 go away from us, nor did we ourselves try to flee from them as it were.

14 Q. Thank you for your patience in answering the questions.

15 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

16 Any re-direct, Mr. Re?

17 MR. RE: Yes, there is. Thank you, Your Honour.

18 Re-examined by Mr. Re:

19 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, Mr. Morrissey asked you about whether someone in

20 the HVO had told you of the danger -- sorry, had told you on either the

21 12th or the 13th of the danger of an imminent attack from the ABiH and you

22 answered yes. Had you ever been told before there in similar

23 circumstances of the danger of an imminent attack from the ABiH?

24 A. Yes, yes. Many times.

25 Q. And what had happened on those many times? Had there in fact been

Page 77

1 an attack when you'd been warned before?

2 A. Well, people in the village would be put in a state of alert, so

3 to be as ready as possible for such an event.

4 Q. How many times did an attack follow a warning of danger of an

5 imminent attack?

6 A. Once as far as I can remember.

7 Q. And was that the 14th of September, or are you referring to an

8 earlier occasion when there was an attack?

9 A. Not -- not an actual attack, rather there was intensive fire. But

10 at that time there was one soldier who got killed on the front line. But

11 I do not remember the date with precision.

12 Q. I want to clarify, too, some of the questions in relation to what

13 you were wearing when you were outside with your Kalashnikov firing into

14 the air.

15 Now, you told me when I asked you questions that you had worn

16 your -- that you had a uniform. What -- and yesterday I think you said

17 the uniform comprised -- it was a camouflage one. Can you just tell us

18 what you wore on the top and what you wore on the bottom as part of the

19 uniform?

20 A. The bottom were trousers. I had boots on my feet -- I did not

21 have boots on my feet. I had some sneakers or something like that, and I

22 had a jumper on, a sweater.

23 Q. I just want to divide this into two. What was the normal uniform

24 and then I'll come to what you were wearing on the morning. So first,

25 what was the normal uniform that you were issued with and wore?

Page 78

1 A. It was the camouflage uniform.

2 Q. Did you have a jacket, a camouflage jacket?

3 A. I did have a jacket generally, but I'm not sure whether I wore it

4 on that particular day. I don't think so.

5 Q. Right. What about the camouflage trousers, were they part of your

6 uniform?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Were you wearing the camouflage trousers on the morning when you

9 went out and shot into the air?

10 A. Yes, I was.

11 Q. You had military boots, but you were wearing trainers when you

12 went out. Is that what you're saying?

13 A. That's right.

14 Q. So to clarify this: You had camouflage trousers on and a jumper

15 or a sweater on the top. Is that correct?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. And the jumper or the sweater, can you describe it? What sort was

18 it, a military one, a civilian one? What did it look like?

19 A. Yes, of course. It was my personal sweater. It was a dark brown

20 one and there was some other dark shades on it. It was a Dolce Vita with

21 a turtleneck, in other words.

22 Q. And finally, Mr. Morrissey, Defence counsel, asked you about where

23 you found Ante Stojanovic's body, whether it had been moved. I just want

24 you to have a look at Exhibit P306, please.

25 A. Can I have a different zoom, please, because if it's this blown

Page 79

1 up, I cannot see it properly. I can't see every blade of grass.

2 Q. I don't think the photograph's there yet.

3 Can you see on P306, which is in front of you, the spot where you

4 saw his body? Can you see the photograph on your left there?

5 A. I do see the photograph, but I cannot see the actual place. It is

6 really too far.

7 Q. I'm sorry. Are you saying that it needs to be blown up or it's

8 not -- it's in another position, not actually on that photograph?

9 A. Well, what I'm saying is I can't see the place properly.

10 Q. About where -- was it near the village of Kriz that you found his

11 body or saw his body?

12 A. In the vicinity of his house, more precisely.

13 Q. Can you see his house there?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Where was his house?

16 A. Shall I mark it or what?

17 Q. Well, if it's not there -- I'm sorry. Can you see his house in

18 that photograph? Then you said can you mark it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. If you can see it, can you mark the house, please.

21 A. [Marks].

22 Q. Okay. Now, where was -- you've put an X on his house.

23 Now, where was the body in relation to that when you're saying

24 it's over the hill? Could you perhaps put an arrow pointing down to

25 where -- the approximate place where the body was.

Page 80

1 A. I'm really not sure, but I think hereabouts, roughly speaking, or

2 perhaps further to the left. I'm not sure what the scale is of this

3 photograph.

4 Q. Okay.

5 MR. RE: Could that be received into evidence?

6 Q. And I'll show you from the other view.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection -- there's no objection, Your

8 Honour.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, it's admitted into the evidence.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P352.

11 MR. RE: Could I trouble the registrar to show the witness

12 Exhibit P333, please.

13 Q. Does that one help? All right. Can you see the spot there where

14 you saw his body?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Can you mark just with an X the spot where his body was.

17 A. I'm not positive, but if memory serves, it was around about here.

18 Certainly not far from the spot that I've marked.

19 Q. And the X that you've put, is that in front of his house?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Okay.

22 MR. RE: May that be received into evidence?

23 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: It's admitted into the evidence.

25 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P353.

Page 81

1 MR. RE: Nothing further.

2 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

3 Well, are there any more documents to tender at this stage?

4 MR. RE: Not from the Prosecution, no.

5 MR. MORRISSEY: There's nothing new, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE LIU: I see.

7 Well, Witness, thank you very much indeed for coming to The Hague

8 to give your evidence. Madam Usher will show you out of the room, and

9 then we wish you a very pleasant journey back home.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11 [The witness withdrew]

12 JUDGE LIU: We still have about 30 minutes to go until 7.00, so

13 it's possible for us to hear the next witness.

14 [The witness entered court]

15 JUDGE LIU: Good evening, Witness.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening.

17 JUDGE LIU: Would you please make the solemn declaration in

18 accordance with the paper Madam Usher is showing to you.


20 Examined by Ms. Chana:

21 Q. Could you give your full name to the Court, please.

22 A. Marko Zelic.

23 Q. And you were born on the 12th of July, 1978?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And you were born in Uzdol?

Page 82

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Your current occupation is that you're a waiter?

3 A. Not as we speak. I've changed jobs recently.

4 Q. What are you doing now?

5 A. I'm a construction worker.

6 Q. Now, before the war, where were you living?

7 A. In Uzdol.

8 Q. And which part of Uzdol was this?

9 A. Zelenike.

10 Q. And who did you live with?

11 A. With my mother, brother, and sister.

12 Q. Could you please give their names?

13 A. Ruza Zelic, Stjepan Zelic, Marija Zelic.

14 Q. And can you tell us how old was Stefan [sic]?

15 A. 10.

16 Q. And Marija?

17 A. 13.

18 Q. And how old were you yourself? And I'll take the date of 14th

19 September, 1993.

20 A. 15.

21 Q. Were you going to school?

22 A. 15. Yes.

23 Q. I'd like to take you to the 14th of September, 1993. Do you

24 remember that date?

25 A. Yes.

Page 83

1 Q. Yes. Can you tell us what happened on that day and start with the

2 morning, please.

3 A. That morning I was awoken by sounds of shooting near my house. We

4 realised immediately that something was wrong and we started running.

5 Q. Now, I'd like to take this a little bit slower, if I may, and I

6 need a little bit more detail from you.

7 What time was it in the morning that you woke up?

8 A. It was about 6.00 a.m. thereabouts.

9 Q. Did your other members of the family also wake up at about the

10 same time?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Right. And you said you heard some sounds. Can you describe

13 those sounds again, please.

14 A. Sounds of shooting, automatic weapons being fired. We started

15 running. We left the house and started running towards the school

16 building.

17 Q. And did you all have time to dress before you left the house, or

18 did you leave in your nightclothes or whatever?

19 A. I ran in my nightclothes.

20 Q. And what about the Stefan, your brother?

21 A. The same applied to him. He started running like everyone else.

22 Q. And your sister, Marija?

23 A. Likewise.

24 Q. And how did you leave the house, through which exit?

25 A. Through the window.

Page 84

1 Q. Did you see any of your neighbours at that time before you ran up

2 to the school?

3 A. We started running towards the school building and towards our

4 neighbour's house, which is on the way to the school. We saw that the

5 neighbour's cowshed was burning, and we decided not to run in the

6 direction of his house but rather to the woods. I saw my neighbour

7 outside the house. He was unarmed and there was a soldier standing next

8 to him who was armed.

9 Q. And what is the name of this neighbour?

10 A. Ivan Zelenika.

11 Q. And how long was it that you were there to observe this?

12 A. Not long. I can't say exactly.

13 Q. And this soldier who was standing next to him and who was armed,

14 what soldier -- whose soldier was he?

15 A. He wore a camouflage uniform and carried a weapon. I wasn't sure

16 whose soldier he was.

17 Q. Then what did you observe?

18 A. I saw my neighbourhood standing right there six or seven metres

19 from the house itself, and I saw this soldier carrying a rifle. Once we

20 surveyed the scene, we decided to start running in a direction through the

21 woods.

22 Q. Did you see what happened to Ivan Zelenika before you ran away to

23 the woods?

24 A. No, I didn't. There -- there were sounds of shooting all over the

25 place all the time.

Page 85

1 Q. And where did you run to? Which woods were these?

2 A. The woods right next to our house.

3 Q. I'm going to show you a photograph.

4 MS. CHANA: And would the registrar please put on this. That's

5 0149-4763.

6 Q. There will be a photograph appearing on your monitor in a minute.

7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 354.

8 MS. CHANA: Thank you.

9 Q. Do you recognise this place?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Right. Now, could you mark for us - and you'll be assisted in a

12 minute - with a circle where your house was.

13 A. [Marks].

14 Q. And can you mark with an arrow the direction you ran and how far

15 away from the house you ran.

16 A. [Marks].

17 Q. Yes. What happened then?

18 A. We ran down as far as the road junction. I managed to dive into a

19 creek.

20 Q. Okay. Now, this junction, just -- on this photograph that you're

21 still looking at, where exactly was the junction and can you mark it with

22 an X?

23 A. [Marks].

24 Q. And if you could also make your arrow bigger and mark with a cross

25 this junction where you just mentioned was.

Page 86

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. Right. Thank you.

3 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I'll tender this into evidence, if I may.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: There's no objection, Your Honour.

5 MS. CHANA: Thank you.

6 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. It's admitted into the evidence.

7 MS. CHANA: But I will now like to show --

8 JUDGE LIU: And the Court Deputy will give a number.

9 MS. CHANA: I'm sorry.

10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Prosecution Exhibit P355, and the

11 original Prosecution Exhibit P354.

12 MS. CHANA: Thank you.

13 What I -- can I please have 0149-4712 on the monitor, please.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 356.

15 MS. CHANA: Is it on the screen? I can't -- oh, thank you.

16 Q. Now, is this the junction that you just referred to, it's a

17 close-up of that junction?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. Now, can you tell us what happened here but take it a step

20 at a time.

21 You were all at this junction. What happened next?

22 A. I was the first who managed to escape further down from the

23 junction and as far as the creek, but my mother and sister stayed behind.

24 Q. Escape from what? Can you just tell us what happened? Did you

25 see anybody here or you just separated -- you ran somewhere else and your

Page 87

1 mother and sister and brother ran somewhere else?

2 A. I was the first to escape. There was firing and I noticed

3 soldiers running after us.

4 Q. Now, how many soldiers did you notice running after you?

5 A. Three.

6 Q. And do you know what kind of soldiers they were?

7 A. I heard them yelling "Allahu Akbar", and I assumed those were

8 Muslim soldiers.

9 Q. What kind of uniform were they wearing?

10 A. Camouflage.

11 Q. Did you recognise that camouflage uniform as belonging to any

12 particular group?

13 A. No. They all looked alike, but there was nothing distinctive

14 about them.

15 Q. And were they saying anything to you? To you I mean by your

16 entire family.

17 A. They were telling us to stop.

18 Q. And did you stop?

19 A. No. I just ran on.

20 Q. And where did you run?

21 A. Further down from the junction and towards the creek.

22 Q. Before you ran to the creek did you -- were you -- did you -- were

23 you close by this photograph somewhere?

24 A. I crossed this junction and I ran towards the creek.

25 Q. In which direction was the creek? Can you just draw an arrow.

Page 88

1 A. [Marks].

2 Q. If you could just make sure the arrowhead is there somewhere.

3 Could you put those two pointy bits to show it's an arrow?

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Thank you very much.

6 Now, what happened while you were -- ran in that direction? What

7 happened to your mother and brother and sister?

8 A. They followed me.

9 Q. Yes. Then what happened next?

10 A. Soldiers caught up with them at the junction.

11 Q. Which junction?

12 A. This one in the photograph.

13 Q. So the soldiers caught up with them at this junction and you had

14 run where the arrow is pointing; is that correct? I just want to be quite

15 clear so Their Honours can follow your evidence.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So now you are separated, are you not, from the rest of your

18 family?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Okay. What happened?

21 A. The soldiers caught up with them.

22 Q. Yes.

23 A. My mother begged them to let them go and not kill them.

24 Q. Now, before we come to that. How come you hear -- how is it that

25 you were hearing this? Where were you yourself?

Page 89

1 A. I was perhaps six or seven metres away from the junction,

2 concealed in the bushes.

3 Q. And is that the same direction where you have marked that arrow?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So you were hiding there?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Right. You -- now we go back to what you heard your mother say.

8 Can you try to please recall - and I'm aware it can't be very easy

9 for you - what exactly your mother did say to these soldiers.

10 A. She begged them not to kill them and to let them go.

11 Q. And what was the response to this plea?

12 A. I didn't hear what they said. The next thing I heard was the

13 soldiers talking, saying, What shall we do with the women and children?

14 Q. Yes. So was this like one soldier asking another soldier? Did

15 you hear one voice and then another voice?

16 A. Just one voice.

17 Q. Could you observe them from your vantage point, from where you

18 were hiding? Could you see them or could you just hear them?

19 A. Just hear them.

20 Q. Yes. And what did you -- if you can again remember what you heard

21 the soldiers say in exactly the same words, if you can of course.

22 A. I heard them talking and a soldier asked, What should I do with

23 the women and children?

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. The next thing I heard there was an order to kill anyone they

Page 90

1 captured. I heard them mentioning Eniz Hujdur and Enver Buza.

2 Q. Now, you said you heard an order to kill anyone they captured.

3 Now, who was this order from and how did you hear it? Do you remember the

4 voice?

5 A. I heard a voice saying that all those captured must be killed.

6 Q. Okay. And who did you hear mention Eniz Hujdur and Enver Buza?

7 A. One of those soldiers there.

8 Q. In what context did they mention these two names?

9 A. I can't remember exactly.

10 Q. No, I understand. It has been some time. So we are very grateful

11 to you to recall as best as you can under very difficult circumstances.

12 Now, did you know who Eniz Hujdur was?

13 A. Eniz Hujdur, as far as I knew, was a member of the BH army.

14 Q. How -- did you know him at that time when his name was mentioned?

15 A. I had known him before the war while he still went to school.

16 Q. Were you in school together?

17 A. No. We were schoolmates but not classmates, so I saw him around

18 the school.

19 Q. So you knew who he was?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And what about the Enver Buza? Did you know who he was when you

22 heard that name, Enver Buza?

23 A. I didn't know. I only learned later.

24 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, this might be a convenient place to

25 break.

Page 91


2 Well, Witness, I'm afraid that you have to stay in The Hague for

3 another day --

4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

5 JUDGE LIU: -- and I have to warn you that now you are under the

6 oath, so do not talk to anybody and do not let anybody talk to you about

7 your testimony and we'll see you tomorrow afternoon.

8 Do you understand that?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes. And we have a housekeeping matter to deal with.

11 That is the photograph marked by the witness should be tendered and dealt

12 with.

13 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, the junction one, the close-up, I was

14 going to have the witness mark more things on it. So could we wait until

15 he's completed his markings? Or I could tender this one now and use

16 another one.

17 THE REGISTRAR: We can mark it for identification as MFI 357.

18 MS. CHANA: Yes. Thank you.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 So we'll resume tomorrow afternoon at 4.30, I guess. Yes.

21 MS. CHANA: Thank you.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.00 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 13th day of

24 April, 2005, at 4.30 p.m.