Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1

1 Wednesday, 18 May 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

6 JUDGE LIU: Call the case please, Mr. Court Deputy.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is Case Number

8 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

9 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

10 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I have to apologise for the

11 delay since it is very difficult to find the time for the whole Trial

12 Chamber to have a meeting, so we had one at 8.00 this morning, so -- which

13 caused a delay for this sitting for five minutes. I apologise to

14 everybody.

15 Well, Witness, good morning. Are you ready to continue?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Good morning. I am ready,

17 Your Honour.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

19 Ms. Chana.

20 MS. CHANA: May it please Your Honours.


22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Examined by Ms. Chana: [Continued]

24 Q. Mr. Delalic, yesterday we were at Zuka's base and you were telling

25 us about the reaction of those assembled when you told them the story of

Page 2

1 the children and what they had told you about the murder of their

2 families. Now, I'd like to take you to -- this is at page 85 of the

3 transcript yesterday when you said: "Mr. Sefer Halilovic and everybody

4 else assembled there was that they didn't want to hear anything about the

5 children and the children should be removed and that dirty laundry ought

6 to be removed."

7 Now, can you tell me -- can you elaborate as to what you -- what

8 was meant by "dirty laundry should be removed."

9 A. I said yesterday that it was stated that dirty laundry should be

10 hidden, and dirty laundry means that all those things that had happened

11 should be concealed actually.

12 Q. And how was that going to be concealed?

13 A. Immediately after the crime in Grabovica, an order was issued.

14 Mr. Halilovic and Zulfikar Alispago issued the order to set up a

15 checkpoint somewhere at the bridge, because those who managed to flee the

16 massacre had already reached Jablanica and the information was already out

17 about the crime. There was already talk about the crime and some things

18 were already out in the open. Some journalists and police and UNPROFOR

19 who were active in that area of responsibility had already started to move

20 towards Grabovica, and the checkpoint was then set up at the bridge.

21 Q. Yes. I'm going to come to the checkpoints in a minute. But

22 before we do that, I would still like to take you back to Zuka's base, if

23 I may, because it's important for Their Honours to understand what was

24 said and by whom. And if you can now please cast your mind back and tell

25 us, who said that the children should be removed?

Page 3

1 A. When I arrived at the base --


3 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, what the witness said was that

4 "dirty laundry should be removed" and he gave an explanation of what that

5 meant. In terms of removing the children, if that's what the witness

6 says, he can say it himself. But that's not what he said up to now. The

7 question says that very thing.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe that the children should be removed

9 and dirty laundry ought to be removed, all this was said by this witness

10 himself.


12 JUDGE LIU: So the Prosecution will clarify it on this point.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE LIU: Yes, you may proceed.

15 MS. CHANA: I'm obliged, Your Honours.

16 Q. Could you please tell us who said it.

17 A. Only when I arrived at the base -- actually, at the point in time

18 when I arrived at the base, almost everybody was in favour of removing the

19 children so that there would be no witnesses to the crime. All those who

20 were in the office, from Sefer Halilovic to his other assistants, Zuka,

21 all of them were saying that I shouldn't have even brought the children to

22 the office and that the children should be removed.

23 Q. And by "removed," could you be clear about that. What was meant?

24 A. Probably the children were supposed to end up in the same way that

25 their parents and their family ended up.

Page 4

1 Q. Why was a decision made not to allow the kids to go back to

2 Jablanica? As you said yesterday, they had indicated that they had

3 relatives there.

4 A. Based on the conversation I had with them, they themselves told me

5 that they had an aunt and an uncle in Jablanica. The children themselves

6 wanted to go there. They knew that everyone from their family was killed,

7 so of course they were looking for somebody, a relative where they could

8 find shelter. They wanted to go to Jablanica to their aunt and uncle's,

9 but they were not allowed to do that. A decision was made at Zuka's base

10 that the children could not leave Zuka's base but that they should remain

11 at this base, at the command where Zuka's soldiers were also staying, for

12 as long as the offensive lasted. I tried several times to suggest to

13 those people that these are underaged children, minors. They were about

14 10 or 9 years old at the time, and that the children had to be sent or

15 must be sent to Jablanica, that it wasn't good for them to be in the

16 barracks. But this decision was not made. All of those who were present

17 in the command decided that the children should stay at the command and

18 sleep there.

19 I would also like to point out that they were interviewed by an

20 independent journalist who happened to be there. His name was Sefko

21 Hodzic. He was the first person to take a statement from them. They told

22 him everything about the crime, what had happened to them and to members

23 of their family. And in spite of that, Sefko Hodzic also did not state

24 anything to anybody publicly. He did not publish what the children said

25 and the children were not sent to Jablanica to their relatives.

Page 5

1 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, you said that it was decided that they must stay

2 at Zuka's base as long as the offensive lasted, and that's at page [sic]

3 13. Why did they have to stay in Zuka's base as long as the offensive

4 lasted?

5 A. It was said at the time that the news should not get out. As I

6 said, the dirty laundry had to be concealed, the crime had to be

7 concealed, and the offensive that was to start in a few days also had to

8 be concealed.

9 Q. I'm sorry, the offensive had to be concealed? Is that what you

10 said? I'm just clarifying.

11 A. Yes, the offensive was supposed to start in a few days' time, but

12 if the children left for Jablanica that would be known, become known. So

13 that's why they had to keep the children there. That's what they thought,

14 the children had to be kept in the barracks so that the offensive that was

15 supposed to begin in a few days should be concealed from the public.

16 Q. Now, you said that the children went inside that room where all

17 were assembled and also talked --

18 A. One of the boys.

19 Q. Yes. And they went and gave the full story as to what happened to

20 them?

21 A. Yes, they did.

22 Q. Well, one of the boys. Yes.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. After one of the boys had talked to the assembled, what was the

25 reaction then? And I would like you to concentrate on Sefer Halilovic's

Page 6

1 reaction as well as the others, please.

2 A. The reaction, especially that of Mr. Sefer Halilovic, naturally --

3 well, he did listen to the children up to a point. He heard them out, and

4 he didn't say anything when the boy was here. Once the boy went out, then

5 they said that what had happened had to be concealed. They spoke about

6 keeping the children in the base, that they should not be allowed to go to

7 Jablanica, and that the crime should be concealed, and not only

8 Mr. Halilovic but the others also said more or less the same thing.

9 Q. Right. Now, let's go to these checkpoints. Who ordered the

10 checkpoints be placed?

11 A. Immediately after that, Mr. Sefer Halilovic ordered Zuka to set up

12 a checkpoint from the Jablanica towards Mostar. When you are crossing

13 from the right to the left bank of the Neretva, there was a concrete

14 bridge. A checkpoint was set up there, manned by a number of Zuka's men,

15 including some members of the military police.

16 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, I will show you another picture. This is 65 ter

17 number 147, 0299-2346. It will come up on your screen in a minute.

18 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 417.


20 Q. Can you see the picture now, Mr. Delalic?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Can you tell us what this picture is of, please.

23 A. This photograph here depicts the bridge, and you can see where the

24 checkpoint was set up.

25 Q. Now, would you please take, as you did yesterday, and mark with a

Page 7

1 circle where the checkpoint was established.

2 A. [Marks]

3 Q. And could you please write there "checkpoint."

4 A. [Marks]

5 Q. Now, can you, with broken arrows, indicate to Their Honours where

6 the direction of Grabovica would be, please.

7 A. [Marks]

8 Q. Right. And would you put "Grabovica" at the end of that arrow,

9 please. Would you write in "Grabovica."

10 A. [Marks]

11 Q. Now, why was it thought fit to put a checkpoint at this particular

12 place?

13 A. The checkpoint was set up primarily in order to prevent the

14 journalists, police, and UNPROFOR from going into Grabovica. There was

15 already talk about the crime, and I personally saw when I was passing by

16 the checkpoint a white transporter standing there. It had been stopped.

17 A journalist, I don't know her name but I think that she was of Jewish

18 origin who wanted to get to Grabovica. The police from Jablanica also

19 tried to get through, but they didn't manage to do that.

20 Q. Now, was this checkpoint sufficient to secure the village?

21 A. The checkpoint wasn't meant to secure the village. There was

22 nothing to secure it from.

23 Q. So what was the purpose of the checkpoint, as you said, to stop

24 people from going in. So did it serve its purpose?

25 A. The reason why it was set up was to prevent the entry of certain

Page 8

1 organs that could find out something about the crime. This would be the

2 police from Jablanica but also the UNPROFOR and journalists, and it did

3 serve its purpose, yes.

4 Q. And you said Zuka's men were manning this particular checkpoint.

5 How many were they at this checkpoint?

6 A. About three or four fighters.

7 Q. Was there any other checkpoint established nearer the village or

8 in the village, to your knowledge?

9 A. It's a normal occurrence to have guards any place where there are

10 soldiers. In the village itself when the soldiers were billeted there,

11 guardposts were set up. Zuka's command decided, and this was conveyed to

12 the unit commanders and since the offensive was going to begin in a few

13 days soldiers were not supposed to go into town, they were not supposed to

14 get drunk because if they get drunk then they would cause problems, and

15 that is why these guardposts were set up. Nobody else was talking about

16 setting up any checkpoints after the crime. These guardposts were set up

17 immediately, as soon as the soldiers were billeted in the village.

18 Q. Yes. So --

19 MS. CHANA: I would like to introduce this into evidence, MFI 417.


21 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, there's no objection.

22 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much --

23 MS. CHANA: 418.

24 THE REGISTRAR: The original of the photograph is Prosecution

25 Exhibit P417 and the one that's marked will be Prosecution Exhibit P418.

Page 9


2 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, how many soldiers would you say were in the

3 village at this time, an estimation, please?

4 A. According to my information, there were about 150, maybe more,

5 fighters; however, there were usually more because there were people

6 coming from the other units. A couple of kilometres from the village

7 there was the line where the attacks were supposed to take place. So

8 there were always more soldiers from the 10th Mountain Brigade, from some

9 other units, from Zuka's units. They would come to spend time, socialise,

10 with the soldiers.

11 Q. Now, to your knowledge were any arrests made of any soldiers at

12 this time?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, was Zuka's unit, under whom these soldiers were subordinated,

15 sufficiently equipped to have made such arrests if they had wanted to?

16 A. First of all, there wasn't any talk about any arrests. I was

17 present at the meeting there. There was no mention of arrests. The other

18 thing is, if they wanted to arrest anyone, they could have done that very

19 easily. These were soldiers, but most of the soldiers who were billeted

20 in Grabovica were not in favour of this. And I'm sure that they and all

21 the others, had they wanted to locate these soldiers, it would have been

22 very easy to arrest them. But there was no mention of any arrests. And I

23 think that if anybody says that they did anything towards that end, would

24 be lying -- they would be lying.

25 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, whose duty was it to order the arrests of these

Page 10

1 soldiers?

2 MR. MORRISSEY: It better be specified which soldiers.



5 Q. Mr. Delalic, whose duty would it have been to order the arrest of

6 any of the perpetrators of these crimes?

7 A. It first would be the duty of Mr. Sefer Halilovic to order Zuka,

8 because that happened on his axis of command. So it would be the duty of

9 Mr. Sefer Halilovic to issue an order to Zulfikar to undertake measures,

10 to conduct an investigation, and to find out the perpetrators of the

11 crime. Then it would have been easy to arrest them. But I repeat, it

12 wasn't in anyone's interest and nobody did anything towards that end.

13 Nobody was even interested in that crime.

14 Q. According to your own information at the time, when do you think

15 the killings -- which date do you think the killings happened?

16 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, before that question is answered,

17 we've got no notice that this witness was going to say anything about

18 this. And it had better be established exactly what it was that was the

19 basis of the witness's knowledge before he gives an answer to the

20 question.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, from the previous questions and answers, we know

22 that the witness came to a certain place and spent the night. When he

23 came back from that place to Zuka's headquarters, he heard what happened

24 in Grabovica. So I believe this question is the follow-up from those

25 questions and answers.

Page 11

1 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, if Your Honour's right, then that's correct.

2 But the basis -- if he's being asked for an opinion as to when he thinks

3 it takes place, then he -- the basis for that opinion has to be sought

4 before it's -- it's led, otherwise it's just a speculative opinion that's

5 got no value in this case.

6 JUDGE LIU: I don't think this is a speculative opinion on this

7 point, because there's some background on that. Let's see what the

8 Prosecution will lead to.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.

10 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed, Ms. Chana.

11 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, thank you. I think it was built in my

12 question when I said "according to your information at the time."

13 Q. Yes, Mr. Delalic, would you tell us -- would you answer -- do you

14 need reminding?

15 A. Those killings occurred in the night, starting from the moment

16 when it began to get dark.

17 Q. And what would be the date of that night?

18 A. The night of the 8th to the 9th.

19 Q. Now, how do you know this? How did you know it at the time?

20 A. Well, people spoke about that. Since I found out about it, I was

21 told on the base that a crime had been committed in the night. And later

22 on on a number of occasions, people talked about the crime and about the

23 time when these crimes had been committed.

24 Q. Now, do you have any information as to where Sefer Halilovic was

25 on that night?

Page 12

1 A. I think he was in Jablanica.

2 Q. And why do you say that?

3 A. Well, because he was in Zuka's base in the early morning, and it

4 wasn't possible for him to go anywhere further in order to be able to

5 return so early in the morning to the base.

6 Q. Why would it not have been possible for him to have returned so

7 early in the morning?

8 A. Well, first of all, I think that the road from Jablanica to Konjic

9 had been blocked or part of the road after -- the exit from Konjic to

10 Jablanica was under Croatian control. So I doubt he would have taken the

11 risk of going from Jablanica to Konjic to sleep there and then return

12 immediately in the morning. Secondly, there is a byroad, a circular road,

13 which is a lot more longer and difficult. I don't believe he could have

14 returned from Konjic to Jablanica so early. I'm referring to Konjic now.

15 In the direction of Mostar, the road was also blocked, so I believe he was

16 in Jablanica. But in any event, he was in Zuka's base in the early

17 morning.

18 Q. Now, how long is the road from Konjic to Jablanica and how long

19 would it take to travel down that road at that time, given the

20 circumstances?

21 A. Well, the road from Konjic to Jablanica is not very long. It

22 takes perhaps half an hour to get there if the conditions were normal.

23 However, as I have already said, there was a checkpoint or there were

24 Croatian soldiers who were checking vehicles. So it was impossible to

25 pass through, to go from Jablanica to Konjic or from Konjic to Jablanica.

Page 13

1 However, if you used the dirt road I have mentioned, which is a sort of

2 circular road, it would have taken three or four hours or even longer.

3 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, you must have over the time, since these murders

4 were committed, talked to various soldiers. First of all, let me ask:

5 Did you talk to your soldiers over time about these killings?

6 A. All soldiers that one attempted to speak to were scared in a

7 certain sense. No one wanted to know anything about this and they all

8 dissociated themselves from the event. No one wanted to say anything

9 about it. However, certain things came to light, certain information

10 could be obtained. (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 Q. Why, Mr. Delalic, in your view did these murders take place?

15 A. As I said at the beginning, it was stupid to billet the men in a

16 village inhabited by Croats. The inhabitants were all Croats in the

17 village; there were no Bosniaks. And in the immediate vicinity of that

18 village, there was the defence line manned by Croatian soldiers. It was

19 quite possible that some Bosniak soldiers might be killed. One should

20 have taken into account the possibility of revenge being taken of soldiers

21 acting out of vengeance if family members of theirs were killed. One

22 should also bear in mind that given the inhabitants who lived there, if

23 they knew that their people were being attacked, certain conflicts would

24 have occurred between the inhabitants and the soldiers. So this should

25 have been foreseen, and the men, the soldiers, certainly should not have

Page 14

1 been billeted in that village.

2 Q. And do you know whose decision it was to billet these soldiers in

3 this village?

4 A. I assume this decision was taken by the superior command. They

5 decided about everything and they decided about billeting the men there,

6 too. So I couldn't say who took the decision for sure, but we know who

7 took the decisions and who planned the action.

8 Q. Now, after you returned from the village for the second time when

9 you saw these checkpoints, did you have occasion to speak to Sefer

10 Halilovic about what -- your findings again?

11 A. We had contact on a number of occasions, but we didn't speak about

12 this again. The decision was taken and no one paid much attention to the

13 crime itself afterwards or to anything else. Everyone was focussed on the

14 upcoming offensive.

15 Q. And what did you do yourself? Did you remain in the area? Did

16 you go back to Sarajevo?

17 A. After the crime, I stayed there for a day or two. I was supposed

18 to reach an agreement with Zuka about taking charge of the materiel and

19 technical equipment that I had bought from him. But I was told it was

20 only after the offensive that I would be able to take charge of that

21 materiel, and I then returned to Sarajevo. As the order was that the

22 troops should remain there for about seven days, I was again issued an

23 oral order, which I received from Mr. Karavelic. I was told that I had to

24 leave Jablanica and return the troops. But as the offensive was late in

25 starting, it wasn't possible to return by that deadline. The troops had

Page 15

1 to remain down there, I would say, for about another ten days.

2 MS. CHANA: Just give me a minute please, Your Honour.

3 Q. When you returned to Sarajevo, did you report what you had heard

4 about and knew about the crimes in Grabovica to your superior command

5 there?

6 A. Well, you see, while I was still in Jablanica information was

7 obtained about the crime and an order arrived from the supreme command.

8 We were ordered to stop with the offensive and to make objective

9 assessments about the offensive, and we were ordered to identify the

10 perpetrators of the crime and arrest them. I saw Mr. Sefer Halilovic and

11 Zulfikar Alispago tearing up the order. They reacted very angrily to the

12 order and Sefko Hodzic was present at the time. He had taken a statement

13 from the children, and he was present when the order arrived. But in

14 spite of the fact, he did not publish any articles about this.

15 Q. Yes. I'm going to come to -- in a minute to that order, but I

16 would like to please maintain the chronology. Now, did your troops go

17 back to Sarajevo?

18 A. Yes, they returned, but it took them longer to return than had

19 been planned. They stayed down there for about 15 days, I don't know for

20 how long exactly.

21 Q. All right. Let's look at some documents now. I'd like to show

22 you P388. Can you see the document?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you -- it's dated 12th of September, 1993, and it's from

25 Karavelic to Halilovic. What is the meaning of this document, could you

Page 16

1 please tell us?

2 A. It means that the corps command in Sarajevo and in the supreme

3 command, they already knew about the crime. And the corps commander

4 ordered that the units should return to Sarajevo in order to question the

5 men or do something like that. But this order was not carried out, and

6 the troops did not return to Sarajevo.

7 Q. So this is Vahid Karavelic's order to ask the troops to return,

8 and this order was not carried out. Do you know why?

9 A. Well, the offensive that had been planned had not yet been

10 launched. And the superior command in Jablanica did not allow this to be

11 carried out. Sefer Halilovic and Zulfikar Alispago were against this.

12 Q. So was there -- how did they countermand this order so these

13 troops did not return to Sarajevo, do you know?

14 A. Well, this order was never even forwarded to the men. They

15 received the order, but they did not act on it. They didn't show it to

16 anyone. So the troops' commander knew nothing about the order.

17 Q. Now, I'd like you to show D157 --

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, just a moment. Before that happens, is my

19 learned friend going to ask whether this witness saw this order at the

20 time? Otherwise, what's the basis of showing it to him at all? That

21 question simply hasn't been asked yet.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. But first of all I have to ask whether this

23 document has been admitted into the evidence or not.

24 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.

25 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

Page 17

1 MS. CHANA: It's -- the previous one, yes. P388, Your Honour.

2 It's already in evidence.

3 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

4 So you may ask a question following the line put by the Defence.

5 MS. CHANA: Yes.

6 Q. When was the first time you saw this order, this one on the screen

7 now?

8 A. I saw this order as soon as it arrived. Mr. Sefer Halilovic and

9 Zulfikar Alispago and some other members of the staff were in front of the

10 base when the order arrived. Mr. Sefko Hodzic was also present. As soon

11 as they had read it, they just tore it up and threw it away.

12 Q. Is this the order that they tore up? Because I'd like to show you

13 another order and I'll come back to that as well because we can only show

14 one at a time.

15 MS. CHANA: If we can please have D157 on the screen.

16 Q. Can you see it? There's another order on your screen. Now,

17 this --

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Excuse me. I don't want Mr. Karkin making audible

19 comments, Your Honours, during the changeover of these documents. Now, it

20 just happened right then and I object to it. I'll have a matter of law to

21 raise in the break about this, Your Honours, but there was an audible

22 comment made there. I don't know what it was myself, but we can't have

23 that sort of thing going on. I was watching and I saw.

24 JUDGE LIU: Yes, yes. There is some leading elements in your

25 questions, Ms. Chana.

Page 18

1 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour. I will correct that immediately.

2 Your Honour, it's just that I'm limited by the technology because I would

3 like to have two orders. This is the kind of time when e-court doesn't do

4 us justice because it's important that we see both orders together. If I

5 could show them to him in paper form.

6 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Yes, of course.

7 MS. CHANA: Now, Your Honour, the witness has before him P388,

8 which is currently on our screens, and D157.

9 Q. There are two orders and they are both dated 12th September, 1993.

10 So could you please look at both of them and then I will ask you

11 questions. One is from Karavelic to Halilovic, and the other one is from

12 Rasim Delic to the supreme command to Halilovic.

13 A. As I have already said, this is not an order that I had seen. But

14 I knew that it had arrived.

15 Q. Let's take it slowly. So 388 you had not seen at the time it

16 arrived in Herzegovina?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Now, let's look at D157. Tell us about this order.

19 A. I was just referring to this order that arrived when we were in

20 front of Zulfikar Alispago's base. Mr. Sefer Halilovic was there and his

21 assistants; members of the Main Staff; Zulfikar Alispago; myself; the

22 independent journalist, Sefko Hodzic. Everyone saw the order. Everyone

23 knew about its contents. The offensive had not been launched. Sefer

24 Halilovic and his staff and Zulfikar Alispago were very angry about this.

25 So they reacted in this angry manner and tore the order up, threw it away.

Page 19

1 Q. Who tore the order up and threw it away?

2 A. Well, Mr. Sefer Halilovic first crumpled it, then Zuka raised it

3 from the ground, read it through, laughed, and tore it up.

4 Q. And what was it about in order that they did not like?

5 A. Well, they told us what the order was about. They said that it

6 was to assess the objective possibility of carrying out this attack and

7 the possibility of arresting the perpetrators of the crime, and this is

8 something that they did not like.

9 MS. CHANA: Perhaps Your Honours can have this D157 on their

10 screens. Is it on the screen.

11 THE REGISTRAR: Ms. Chana, it's on the screen, D157.

12 MS. CHANA: Yes, thank you.

13 Q. Let's look at the first one. Rasim Delic is ordering Sefer

14 Halilovic in point one: "Re-examine the decision in the sense of a

15 realistic estimate of forces and possibilities of carrying out the tasks.

16 In accordance with that, amend the decision so that it conforms to real

17 possibilities."

18 What does that mean to you, Mr. Delalic?

19 A. In item 1 of the order, the sentence is about this: "Re-examine

20 the decision in a sense of a realistic estimate of forces and

21 possibilities of carrying out the tasks." This is meaning to see whether

22 our forces were sufficiently well equipped for the task; I don't think

23 they were and this was subsequently proven to be true. There was nothing

24 we could do. And it says, in accordance with that: "Amend the decision

25 so that it conforms with real possibilities."

Page 20

1 This means stop the offensive or reduce it to a minimum. Just

2 carry out the tasks that could be carried out.

3 Q. And who was being asked to do this, to re-examine? Who is it

4 addressed to?

5 A. Mr. Sefer Halilovic himself received this order, as far as I can

6 see.

7 Q. Now, let's look at number 2 where it says: "Check the accuracy of

8 information regarding the genocide committed against the civilian

9 population by the members of the 1st Corps, 9th Motorised Brigade. If the

10 information is correct, isolate the perpetrators and take energetic

11 measures. Do everything to prevent such actions. Order the 1st Corps,

12 9th deputy commander to return to Sarajevo immediately in order to solve

13 the problems in the unit."

14 What was now being asked of Mr. Halilovic by his commander in

15 this, point 2?

16 A. He is being asked to check the accuracy of the information, or

17 rather -- or rather, to look into the crime that had been committed in

18 Grabovica, and if possible, to identify the perpetrators and arrest them.

19 Q. And number 3 he is now commanded to: "Immediately inform me about

20 the measures that have been taken and tasks that have been carried out."

21 I think that speaks for itself, but I will ask you this: When Mr.

22 Halilovic crumpled this order, did he say anything?

23 A. Well, the order we have before us shows what should have been

24 down; however, nothing was done after the order had been received. The

25 only reaction was anger and curses addressed to Rasim Delic and the

Page 21

1 president of the Presidency. No one else mentioned arresting the soldiers

2 who may have committed this crime.

3 Q. So did you see any intention whatsoever to obey this order from

4 his superior command?

5 A. No, no.

6 Q. So when did your troops actually return to Sarajevo? What date

7 was that?

8 A. After the offensive had been completed. The offensive was

9 launched a few days later; it lasted for several days. And around the

10 21st or 22nd, I don't remember the exact date, the troops returned to

11 Sarajevo.

12 Q. Were you there when the troops were ready to go back to Sarajevo

13 from Herzegovina?

14 A. I was informed that the troops were ready to return. I was moving

15 between Konjic and Jablanica. Several times I went to the entrance to

16 Sarajevo and to Sarajevo itself. When I was informed that the offensive

17 had been completed, I went to the base where Sefer Halilovic was. The

18 troops were ready. They were in lorries and ready to return. And Sefer

19 Halilovic said that all these units should be careful about being captured

20 at the entrance to the tunnel.

21 Q. Now, why is it that he said that to you, that your unit should be

22 careful?

23 A. Well, he repeated that it was necessary to conceal the laundry

24 and -- he said that the laundry should be concealed and that when entering

25 Sarajevo, or rather while travelling from Jablanica to Sarajevo they

Page 22

1 should be careful, they should take care to avoid capture.

2 Q. Did he inform you that -- about where this possible capture might

3 take place?

4 A. Yes. At the entrance to the tunnel that was beneath the airport

5 Tarmac.

6 Q. Did anything happen?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Why did Sefer warn you about this possible capture of your troops?

9 A. Well, because of the crime that had been committed, apparently.

10 And at the time they didn't know which men had committed the crime. So

11 this wasn't told just to the troops from the 9th Mountain Brigade; it was

12 also told to other troops from the 10th Mountain Brigade, et cetera.

13 Everyone was told that when entering Sarajevo they should make sure they

14 were not checked, controlled, arrested, et cetera, et cetera, and this is

15 what they were -- they were told such things because of the crime that had

16 been committed.

17 Q. To be quite clear about this, who were they to be captured by?

18 Who was it that might capture them?

19 A. Well, probably the 1st Corps command, the military police, the 1st

20 Corps military police, or rather the military security service.

21 Q. Did the 1st Corps commander, Vahid Karavelic, say anything to you

22 when you had sort of gone back to Sarajevo about the possibility of these

23 arrests?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, I'd like to show you another document, which is P389. It's

Page 23

1 an order dated 23rd of September, 1993. Now, were your troops back in

2 Sarajevo as of that date?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. All right. Now, can you look at the order? Is it in your -- on

5 your screen. It's an order from Halilovic to Karavelic. What is this

6 order requesting Karavelic --

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. What is this order?

9 A. This is an order forwarded to Vahid Karavelic, the commander of

10 the 1st Corps, to immediately start organising and preparing three

11 companies consisting of 100 soldiers from their composition which are to

12 be sent to the Vrdi front. Again, they were asking about the same orders

13 that had been asked on the 3rd of September or the 7th of September. The

14 order was to send units to the same place in order to carry out combat

15 activities.

16 Q. So briefly, the soldiers were being asked to go back, some

17 soldiers, to be deployed back to Herzegovina?

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I object to that. Your Honours, that's --

19 just excuse me a moment, please. Your Honours, there is no comment about

20 any soldiers going back. Whether it was to be the same soldiers or not is

21 not this witness's evidence at this point.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes. If you want to pursue this issue, Ms. Chana, you

23 have to law some foundations for that.

24 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.

25 Q. Can you look at item 1 of the order. Halilovic orders Karavelic

Page 24

1 and says: "The 1st Corps command will immediately start preparing and

2 ordering three companies consisting of 100 soldiers from their composition

3 which are to be sent to the Vrdi front."

4 Where was Vrdi?

5 A. Vrdi is in the -- on the axis commanded -- under the command of

6 Zulfikar Alispago from the previous offensive.

7 Q. So there is no -- Sefer Halilovic asks for 100 soldiers. It is

8 not specified as to which soldiers. That's correct, isn't it?

9 A. At the time, this order was quite strange. It was quite strange

10 to issue such an order. In my opinion, the crime that happened down there

11 should have been investigated first. But now we have the soldiers being

12 sent to -- or a request for the soldiers to be sent to the Jablanica

13 sector in order to carry out new combat activities.

14 Q. And who were they going to be subordinated to this time?

15 A. To Zulfikar Alispago also, I think, because that was his sector

16 there.

17 Q. And Zulfikar Alispago was subordinated to whom?

18 A. Zulfikar Alispago was the commander of the Sjever dva, North 2

19 group. So he was subordinated to Mr. Sefer Halilovic.

20 Q. Right. I'll show you another document now, please. That's P395.

21 This is an order dated 24th September 1993 from Commander Vahid Karavelic

22 to your brigade, and attention Ramiz Delalic. Is it on your screen?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, how does this order start? Does it say: "Following the

25 order given by chief of supreme command of the armed forces of the

Page 25

1 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina," and then it asks you "immediately to

2 commence organisational and materiel preparation for 105-strong company to

3 be dispatched to Vrdi, Jablanica sector."

4 Did you receive this order?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And did you implement this order?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you sent some troops back?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Had you ever heard about the IKM?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was the IKM?

13 A. That's a forward command post. An IKM was located at Zuka's base,

14 if I'm not mistaken.

15 Q. And what was the IKM set up to do?

16 A. An IKM is a forward command post. The commander of the operation

17 commands the operation.

18 Q. And did that happen, to your knowledge?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Now, where would orders come from, from Jablanica, from the IKM,

21 or from Sarajevo?

22 A. From the Jablanica IKM.

23 Q. And was Operation Neretva commanded from that IKM, to your

24 knowledge?

25 A. Yes.

Page 26

1 Q. Now, I want to take you to another topic altogether, and that is

2 Trebevic 2. What do you know about Trebevic 2?

3 A. There were a number of Trebevic operations in Bosnia and

4 Herzegovina, Trebevic 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. It was a settling of accounts with

5 all units that were not in the -- under the command service or that were

6 not those units which were allegedly criminal units which were not part of

7 the units under the command of Rasim Delic and so on and so forth. T2

8 happened in Sarajevo. Part of the 9th Motorised Brigade and myself,

9 members of the 9th Motorised Brigade and I myself were arrested, amongst

10 others. There were arrested members as well as the commander of the Delta

11 unit, people from the 10th Mountain Brigade, and so on.

12 Q. And what date would this be?

13 A. 26th of October.

14 Q. Now, before this arrest and Trebevic 2 attack on your soldiers,

15 had you had occasion to talk to Sefer Halilovic?

16 A. Yes. On several occasions. In the last month or so, I was

17 constantly in touch with Mr. Sefer Halilovic directly or indirectly, and

18 he expressed concerns about being arrested and he felt that we also could

19 be arrested and that those commanders that had participated in the Neretva

20 93 operation as well as certain commanders who sent fighters there could

21 also be arrested. So throughout that last month, we were constantly

22 receiving warnings from Mr. Sefer Halilovic, who constantly kept us in a

23 state of expectation that we would be attacked at any time.

24 Q. And why was Sefer Halilovic giving you these continuous warnings

25 and keeping you in a state of expectation?

Page 27

1 A. I think primarily because of himself. He expected to be arrested

2 himself and replaced. In order to keep things the way they were, he had

3 to have supporters. He also gave such warnings to Mr. Zulfikar Alispago,

4 Zuka, and to units stationed around Mostar as well as those stationed in

5 Sarajevo. To me, the 10th Mountain Brigade, the Independent Battalion,

6 the Delta unit, and other units were receiving these warnings that you

7 would be attacked, you would be arrested, you would be killed, and so on

8 and so forth. After that warning, I went to see the president personally.

9 I also went to the commander of the armed forces, Rasim Delic. I went to

10 the security services also. I tried to find out something about this, and

11 I was told that this was not true.

12 Q. Now, did Mr. Halilovic at any time advise you as to what to do if

13 you were indeed attacked?

14 A. On several occasions he would come or he would send somebody to

15 pick us up so that we would go and see him. There was a fighter of

16 Zuka's, his name was Mesar, and he was also an escort and driver for

17 Mr. Halilovic. There was also another person called Vid or something like

18 that who was part of his security force. They would come and pick us up

19 to take us to meet Mr. Sefer Halilovic, to meet with him and talk. Then

20 they would say, You would be attacked the next day, we would be attacked

21 tomorrow, you would be attacked at such-and-such a time. And they would

22 say, You have to defend yourself, you have to shoot directly into the

23 flesh, and so on and so forth.

24 Q. What did it mean to you, that you have to shoot directly into the

25 flesh?

Page 28

1 A. That meant that we had to shoot at those who attacked us.

2 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I would like to now play an intercept,

3 which is 65 ter 103 -- is 0147-2927. We will listen to the audio via

4 Sanction, Your Honour, and I would like to state that I've been informed,

5 very reliably from my case manager, that the interpretation might be quite

6 fast and to make sure that Your Honours can listen to it. The audio will

7 be quite fast. You may please indicate at any time to slow it down or

8 stop or whatever.

9 JUDGE LIU: Well, let's try that.

10 MS. CHANA: All right.

11 JUDGE LIU: Do you have the transcript available?

12 MS. CHANA: It's on the screen, Your Honour, the transcript.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Let's try.

14 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 419.


16 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, would you please listen to this audio

17 transcript.

18 [Intercept played]


20 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, whose voices are there that you recognise, if

21 you do?

22 A. I recognise the voices. The voices are mine and Mr. Sefer

23 Halilovic's.

24 Q. And what date was this conversation?

25 A. The 26th of October at sometime in the morning, perhaps at around

Page 29

1 8.30 or 9.00 in the morning. I don't know exactly.

2 Q. And that was the day that you were arrested?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Was this before the soldiers had come, this conversation took

5 place before?

6 A. Whose soldiers?

7 Q. No. You, yourself, I'm sorry. The other soldiers who came to

8 arrest you.

9 A. This was -- they had already come in the morning. And during the

10 night they deployed their people. They carried out the attack against us

11 in the morning, and I immediately called Mr. Sefer Halilovic to find out

12 what exactly was going on.

13 Q. How long were you arrested for -- sorry. How long were you in

14 custody?

15 A. About seven and a half months.

16 Q. And were you charged?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Was a conviction entered?

19 A. I was charged of insubordination to the commander of the 1st Corps

20 and for not executing orders. During the attack I was supposed to

21 surrender the barracks, and for that I was sentenced to three and a half

22 years in prison. Later, I was pardoned by the Presidency.

23 Q. Now, was Sefer Halilovic to your knowledge also arrested?

24 A. On that day or around that day, yes, he was. But I don't know

25 exactly what happened. But he was arrested; he told me that himself.

Page 30

1 Q. Now --

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, before we go on to that --


4 MR. MORRISSEY: Are the Prosecutors intending to tender this

5 document?


7 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour, I've got two or three to tender and

8 I thought I would tender them all together at the end of the -- this

9 witness's testimony.

10 JUDGE LIU: Maybe Mr. Morrissey would like to make some comments

11 on that.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: We don't want to interrupt the witness's evidence

13 now. I'm going to indicate that we're going to reserve our position on

14 that, so that can be discussed at the end of the evidence as to whether it

15 should be admitted.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. Thank you very much.

17 You may proceed, Ms. Chana.

18 MS. CHANA: Yes, I'm almost coming to an end here anyway.

19 Q. Mr. Delalic, what were your relations with Mr. Halilovic after

20 Trebevic 2?

21 A. It was good until 1996.

22 Q. And what happened after 1996?

23 A. In 1996 -- well, I think it was 1996. It could have been 1997.

24 An investigator came. He introduced himself as a journalist, but he

25 actually was an investigator. On that occasion, Mr. Sefer Halilovic told

Page 31

1 me that this is -- an investigator arrived at Sarajevo and that he wanted

2 to interview me. I agreed to that. I asked Mr. Sefer Halilovic what it

3 was that this so-called journalist wanted to talk to me about, but I knew

4 that he was an investigator. And I was told that he wanted to talk about

5 the crime that had taken place in Grabovica.

6 On that occasion, Mr. Sefer Halilovic asked me that if the

7 investigator asked me if an order had been issued by Sefer Halilovic for

8 an investigation to be conducted, to say that, yes, it had been -- that it

9 was issued. I said that I would say so, but when we came to some house in

10 Hrasnica, this was on the outskirts of Sarajevo where this journalist was

11 with his interpreter, I told him what he wanted to know in the statement

12 about Grabovica, but I did not say that the order had been issued and

13 sent, which was true. It had not been issued and sent.

14 Q. And what was the name of this investigator?

15 A. I don't know.

16 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, that concludes my examination-in-chief of

17 this witness. And as I promised, I've kept within my time frame.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

19 MS. CHANA: But I -- sorry, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

21 MS. CHANA: Subject of course to introducing these documents into

22 exhibits.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well, we may deal with them at a later stage.

24 MS. CHANA: Yes.

25 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Morrissey.

Page 32

1 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, yes, I think that's appropriate,

2 Your Honour. I'll take it that the Prosecution are offering the tape and

3 the transcript for tender, and I'll just reserve my position about it and

4 we can deal with that at a later time. But could I just ask before we

5 break that the Prosecutor provide the Defence with a copy of this

6 statement that Mr. Delalic made in 1996 to the investigator or could they

7 confirm that they have it or that it exists.

8 JUDGE LIU: Do you have it?

9 MS. CHANA: If you would please give me a moment.

10 [Prosecution counsel confer]

11 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, perhaps I may clarify, with your

12 permission, with the witness as to whose investigator this was.

13 Q. The statement that you gave, was it a written statement? And

14 whose investigator was it, what you've just discussed.

15 A. He said that he was an investigator of -- I don't know where from,

16 of what. He was a foreigner and he came from some international court.

17 That's how he introduced himself. I don't know.

18 Q. And did he take a recorded statement from you, audio?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I will certainly look into this. We,

22 according to us, have handed over all the audio transcripts that were

23 taken. There was one --

24 Q. Was it Mr. Nikolai?

25 A. No, no. This was much earlier, a long time before Nikolai.

Page 33

1 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour --


3 MS. CHANA: -- we will certainly look into it during the break.

4 JUDGE LIU: Yes, maybe we could have a break, during which you

5 could make a research on that.

6 MS. CHANA: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll resume at 11.00.

8 --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m.

9 [The witness stands down]

10 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

11 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey, do you have something to say

12 before you cross-examine the witness?

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, I do, Your Honour. It's a bit of a delicate

14 matter, really, and I think I should raise it now before making any

15 allegations or claims. Your Honours, at page 17 of the transcript my

16 learned friend, Ms. Chana, was examining the witness concerning one of two

17 orders. Now, the two orders that were coming along -- that were being

18 dealt with were firstly an order from -- well, it's not really an order

19 but it's being called an order, from Vahid Karavelic asking Mr. Halilovic

20 to send back units to Sarajevo because there was trouble at Sarajevo. And

21 the next document that Ms. Chana proposed to put to the witness was D157

22 which is the Delic order dated the 12th of the 9th. Now, it was the

23 Prosecution position to ask questions of Mr. Delic -- Mr. Delalic, the

24 witness here, as to what was Sefer Halilovic's reaction to the Karavelic

25 document, there was a Karavelic one, the Delic one. And the witness gave

Page 34

1 his answers. And then he said at the end of those answers, he said,

2 "Well, Halilovic just disregarded it and tore it up and threw it on the

3 ground."

4 Now, that was potentially problematic, because -- I'm not sure how

5 familiar Your Honours are with the pre-trial material on these statements

6 but I assume there's been some reading of them and what the Prosecution

7 was believing they were going to get was that Mr. Halilovic tore up the

8 Delic order. But now the witness was saying that he's torn up the

9 Karavelic order. At that moment -- that was when I jumped up because at

10 that moment Mr. Karkin made an audible noise. I don't know what he said.

11 I don't know if it was a word or an exclamation. I'm not going to make --

12 give any opinion about that. He looked towards the witness and he moved

13 physically. I can't say what the witness saw, whether the witness saw him

14 at all. The witness's back was to me and his head was turned that way.

15 But I'm not asserting anything about that at all, whether the witness saw

16 it.

17 Now, the action by Mr. Karkin might bear a number of

18 interpretations. I don't know what was in his mind. I don't know whether

19 he was trying to communicate with the witness or whether it was just a

20 spontaneous exclamation. And I ought to be very slow to make an

21 allegation against a lawyer who's here performing a function at the

22 permission of the Court. But I'm very concerned by it, frankly. I saw

23 it, I raised it immediately because I saw it, and I want to now raise

24 this. I don't -- I submit that he shouldn't be in the court. There's a

25 real concern if that sort of thing is going to be repeated and it really

Page 35

1 raises a question as to what involvement he is to have here. As I

2 understand it, a witness like Mr. Delalic who's on any view of things --

3 he's a suspect from the Prosecutor's point of view, he's named in the

4 indictment as a burier of bodies or an order of it. So it's quite clear

5 he may from time to time be in danger of incriminating himself and it

6 might be that he needs advice. But the practice of this Tribunal I think

7 in the past has been a flexible one, tailored to circumstances, and it's

8 not constrained by common law rules or by civil law rules. It's one that

9 you decide on. In this instance it seems to me appropriate to submit that

10 this witness is intelligent and well-informed about the case against him,

11 and you would well imagine that he would be. He knows when he's likely to

12 be in trouble or when he might be likely to incriminate himself and he

13 will know when he needs legal advice. It's really for the witness to

14 assert the privilege; it's not for the lawyer to do so.

15 Now, Mr. Karkin could well be permitted to remain in the

16 environment of the court in one of the rooms out there and be on call if

17 needed to come and give advice and give appropriate counselling. At the

18 moment, you know, I'm not prepared to make an assertion against him

19 because I don't know what was in his mind, but what he did was

20 unmistakable. It was seen by Mr. Mettraux as well, and it was just too

21 clear to be unmistaken. So what he meant by that, I don't know. But it

22 just came at a moment when the witness made, according to the

23 Prosecution's theory, a mistake. Because he gave a wrong answer. He was

24 supposed to be tearing up the other order. Now he said that he tore up

25 the Karavelic order and then there was a sudden clearing of the throat and

Page 36

1 a word or noise happened. And then you got the answer changed. And it,

2 yeah, it really is a concern to me. As I say, I'm not here to make

3 allegations against Karkin. I don't know what was happening there, but I

4 don't want it to happen again. I'm very concerned by it. I can't

5 complain later, so I complain now. And it seems to me appropriate that he

6 should be in the court in those circumstances. But the Prosecution should

7 be entitled to be heard about that and perhaps Mr. Karkin could be heard

8 about it as well.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, thank you.

10 Any response?

11 MS. CHANA: I think that from what my perception of what happened

12 is that the witness was shown two orders. And what happened was while I

13 was referring to one there was another one on the screen. As I said, I

14 couldn't show both together. The witness was very clear that the

15 Karavelic order he had never seen before; it was the Delic order. And

16 because they're both 12th September and the purport of both the orders is

17 the same, he immediately said, yes, that's the one he saw torn up. I

18 believe from what I've heard from our case manager who was sitting next to

19 him, Sandra, and who had an opportunity to observe Mr. Karkin is that it

20 was kind of an impulsive reaction from him to say, no it's -- you haven't

21 got the right order on the screen. Either -- the witness had one order on

22 the screen; I started talking about another one. So to that extent I'll

23 take the blame that the different orders were shown at different times,

24 because I would have liked to have the witness shown both together,

25 because sometimes it happens that it's imperative that the witness see two

Page 37

1 together. But it was quite clear from the witness's evidence,

2 Your Honour, at line 17 he says: "I did not see the Karavelic order."

3 And all along it is the Rasim Delic order which was -- which he

4 had seen torn up and crumpled. And Mr. Karkin's reaction, I think, was an

5 impulsive one because he understood, as did our case managers, that the

6 witness was looking at the wrong order on the screen because they both

7 were very -- one was based on another, so very similar contents of both

8 orders. If the witness had said he'd seen both at the time, then quite --

9 learned counsel is quite right, that there is a possible confusion. One

10 he had not seen before, the Karavelic order, it was only the Rasim Delic.

11 And I think the witness himself was a little confused. I'm sure this

12 matter can be clarified with the witness during cross-examination, but I

13 take Mr. Morrissey's point that it's perturbing to have these things

14 happen.

15 Now, in respect of Mr. Karkin's participation in these

16 proceedings, he was given permission by Your Honours to -- to sit in

17 there. His role is one of purely if any advice is needed by the witness

18 at any time in the proceedings, it's appropriate Mr. Karkin sit in and

19 hear what's happening, so if the witness was to request some advice,

20 whether he should answer a question on grounds that he might rather not

21 answer a question, on grounds it might incriminate him. So I think this

22 is the first time Mr. Karkin had an involuntary reaction. And I'm sure

23 duly warned by the Court, he will be very mindful in the future that even

24 if there is what appears to be an error on the part of myself and the

25 witness, that he will leave it to me to clarify it in my own good time.

Page 38

1 To that extent, Your Honour, I feel that Mr. Karkin is not somebody who

2 should be barred from these proceedings because on one occasion he tried

3 to point out that the witness was looking at the wrong document.

4 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

5 A very short, concise reply.

6 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, it will be short and concise,

7 but it's relevant. My learned friend would be a very good defence

8 advocate I must say, and she's done a very good job in defence of Mr.

9 Karkin. If the Court looks at page 16, please, on the transcript you'll

10 see how the questioning unfold and it really isn't -- it doesn't bear the

11 Defence [sic] interpretation that my learned friend's put on it. You'll

12 see at the top of page 16 that Karavelic -- the question -- the order

13 that's referred to is -- is at line 2: "Can you -- it's dated 12th

14 September, 1993, and it's from Karavelic to Halilovic. What's the meaning

15 of this document. Can you please tell us." That document was the one on

16 the screen, of course. And then -- the witness then gives an explanation.

17 He ends up saying: "It was not carried out and the troops did not return

18 to Sarajevo."

19 My friend then asks: "So this is Vahid Karavelic's orders to ask

20 the troops to return" - and this is not to carry that - "do you know why."

21 And then an answer is then given. "Well, the offensive had been

22 planned and not yet been launched" and so on.

23 And the witness says: "Sefer Halilovic and Zulfikar Alispago are

24 against this."

25 So they are talking about the Karavelic order. There's nothing,

Page 39

1 there is no ambiguity whatsoever. At that point, there's none. It's

2 clearly about that order and nothing else.

3 Then we go on to the next question: "So how did they counter this

4 order?"

5 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down, Mr. Morrissey, please.

6 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm being asked by the people to slow down there.

7 "How did they counter this order?

8 "This order was never even forwarded on to the men."

9 And then I interrupted and asked the question and it had to be

10 made clear -- I asked -- asked that it had not -- be made clear what the

11 situation was about that order. And the witness then went on to say --

12 sorry, Your Honour then asked that Ms. Chana clarify the matter. And

13 D157, you'll recall, was shown in hard copy. And you will recall that was

14 done. D388 [sic] was the one that was on the screen, it was the Karavelic

15 order on the screen at all times. So then at line -- at page 17, line 10

16 the question is at line 10: "When was the first time you saw this order,

17 this one on the screen now?"

18 "I saw this as soon as it arrived," et cetera, et cetera, et

19 cetera, "when Sefko Hodzic was also was present. As soon as I'd read it

20 they tore it up and threw it away." Now, we're talking about the one

21 that's on the screen, and the witness gave an answer. The one that's on

22 the screen, that is he said "they tore it up and threw it away." Now it

23 may be that the witness is mistaken. It may be that he's not. It may

24 be -- there could be all sorts of -- of explanations. But Mr. Hodzic's

25 response can't be explained by saying it's the wrong one on -- sorry, not

Page 40

1 Mr. Hodzic. I'm -- I'm -- take that back. Mr. Karkin's response can't be

2 explained in the way that was said. But in any event, Your Honours, it's

3 a matter for the Tribunal, how you deal with it. I have to be concise

4 now. It's in reply. I ask that he not be permitted to be in here. But

5 in the alternative, I ask that the Court give him a clear warning as to

6 the limits that he's allowed to participate.

7 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much. Well, I believe that the

8 decision made by this Trial Chamber to have Mr. Delalic's counsel present

9 in these proceedings is to give him the opportunity to follow what is

10 going on in this courtroom; meanwhile, we know that the delicate situation

11 of this witness, Mr. Delalic. So if there's any legal matters that the

12 witness would like to consult his counsel, the counsel is well-informed

13 and will come to the rescue of this witness as soon as possible. And I

14 believe that on the Defence part, there's only some suspicions on that.

15 And it is an allegation on this matter. At this moment, it's difficult

16 for this Bench to know exactly what Mr. Karkin said at that time. So

17 we'll observe the following proceedings. In the meantime, I'll warn the

18 counsel of Mr. Delalic only to see the behaviour of him in the following

19 proceedings. I believe in the cross-examination, there will be some

20 issues that will come up which might come to some disputes. It is so

21 decided at this stage.

22 And another matter is that yesterday we have received a courtesy

23 copy from the Prosecution concerning of the testimony of the expert

24 witness. I wonder whether Defence has received that filing?

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I'm instructed that we've received something

Page 41

1 on the e-mail this morning. I haven't seen it myself yet.

2 JUDGE LIU: So you are not in the position to make any response at

3 this stage?

4 MR. MORRISSEY: No, I'd -- no, Your Honour, I must say I had other

5 things on my mind. But I'm -- yes, I mean, as soon as court is finished

6 today, of course I'll go and look and see what we've received and I will

7 be able to say what I can tomorrow morning.

8 JUDGE LIU: Because there are some logistic arrangements that have

9 to be made. So I hope you could orally give your response as early as

10 possible, maybe tomorrow morning.

11 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I don't believe I'd have a

12 difficulty responding to whatever it is the Prosecution say tomorrow

13 morning. I will do that, but I don't know what it says yet.

14 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

15 And another matter is on the 9th of May, 2005, the Defence filed a

16 motion responding to the Prosecution's motion to tender the record of

17 interview obtained in violation of the Statute and the Rules. This is a

18 confidential annexed filings. I wonder at this stage whether the

19 Prosecution would like to file a reply.

20 MR. SACHDEVA: May it please Your Honour, we are actually filing

21 something today.

22 JUDGE LIU: Oh, thank you very much. Because we are waiting for

23 your reply so that the Bench will be in a position to make a ruling on

24 that issue.

25 MR. SACHDEVA: Yes. It's going to be filed today before 4.00.

Page 42

1 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

2 So could we have the witness, please.

3 [The witness entered court]

4 JUDGE LIU: Well, before we start the cross-examination, I have a

5 few words to say to Mr. Karkin, the counsel of Mr. Delalic.

6 Mr. Karkin, the Trial Chamber allows you to be present in this

7 proceeding just to give you the opportunity to follow the proceedings.

8 If -- in case your client has some legal issues to ask for your

9 consultations, you may, with the permission of the Bench, come to his

10 help. But however, you are not allowed to make any interventions as well

11 as gestures to the witness.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

13 MR. KARKIN: [Interpretation] I have a lot of respect for

14 lower-level courts, and I have even more respect for this court. I wasn't

15 reacting to his testimony; I was just commenting to myself on the wrong

16 order that had been shown to the witness. But I will do my best to avoid

17 doing this in the future.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, since this is an international tribunal and the

19 participants might use different languages, so I believe very few people

20 in this courtroom could understand what you were saying at that time. So

21 there might be some misunderstandings. So I hope you could bear that in

22 mind and don't do anything that might trigger any suspicions on your part.

23 MR. KARKIN: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. You may sit down, please.

25 Well, Mr. Morrissey, you may proceed with your cross-examination

Page 43

1 of this witness.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey:

4 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Delalic.

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please be shown P215.

6 Your Honours, this is the report prepared dated 13 September, by

7 Namik Dzankovic.

8 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, while that's being brought up on the screen, did

9 you meet Namik Dzankovic during the course of your time in Herzegovina?

10 A. I had heard about him but I never met him personally.

11 Q. All right. And do you have in front of you now on the screen in

12 the Bosnian language a document dated at Jablanica, 13th of September,

13 1993?

14 A. I can see that document.

15 Q. All right. Now, do you see the first paragraph there -- do you

16 see that it's marked and addressed to the attention of Jusuf Jasarevic?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you see that the first paragraph says that "On the 8th of

19 September, 1993, BH Army units from Sarajevo came to the village of

20 Grabovica within the scope of a planned operation towards Mostar. Their

21 command was Ramiz Delalic, also known as Celo."

22 Do you see that?

23 A. Yes, I can see that.

24 Q. Do you have an explanation as to why people were referring to you

25 as the commander of those units on the 13th of September, 1993?

Page 44

1 A. At the time I was the deputy commander of the 9th Motorised

2 Brigade, and it was not possible for me to be the commander of a unit of

3 about 50 men.

4 Q. Yes. But just answer my question. What's your explanation for

5 why somebody would say that you were the commander?

6 A. I have no explanation. I don't understand this.

7 Q. All right. Could we please turn the page over. It's -- in the

8 English copy we want DD00 -- sorry.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Just excuse me one moment. You'll just have to

10 excuse me a moment, please.

11 All right. Could we please show the witness the next page. In

12 the English version it will be the last page; in the Bosnian version it

13 will be the second page.

14 Q. Do you have that next page in front of you now, Mr. Delalic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. All right. Do you see a sentence saying this: "Work on the

17 clarification of this case, gathering of operative information on the

18 exact number of dead, how they were murdered, and detection of possible

19 perpetrators has been done in cooperation with [illegible]," there's a bit

20 of missing text, and then "onsite is impossible to carry out because of

21 the large number of units in the Grabovica area, the attitude of units led

22 by Ramiz Delalic, and fear that giving importance to this incident would

23 result in," then there's a gap and then it says, "return of the whole unit

24 to Sarajevo, which would directly endanger the planned action on Mostar."

25 Do you see that section?

Page 45

1 A. No. It's very difficult to read what I have before me.

2 Q. Very well. There may be a technical problem, Mr. Delalic. Just

3 wait a moment, please.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, we're just going to identify the

5 line so Mr. Delalic can see where it is.

6 JUDGE LIU: Maybe you could furnish a hard copy.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Well, we may have that, Your Honours. Very

8 well, could we --

9 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]


11 Q. Mr. Delalic, it's on the second page about halfway down. There's

12 an underlining on the left-hand side. The sentence I'm wanting you to go

13 to is the one that says: "Work on the clarification of this case,

14 gathering of operative information on the exact number of dead, how they

15 were murdered, and detection of possible perpetrators."

16 All right, Mr. Delalic, do you have that? It's about 15 lines

17 from the top. It starts with the word "rad."

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Well, now, do you see that -- that on the 13th of September --

20 just a minute. Do you see that on that date it's being said that

21 investigation is impossible because, among other things, the attitude of

22 units being led by Ramiz Delalic. Do you see that part?

23 A. Could somebody please me to find it. I really can't find the

24 text.

25 Q. Perhaps the best would be if you return that to the Defence and we

Page 46

1 will simply -- we will indicate it.

2 A. Yes, yes. I see it now.

3 Q. All right. Just take a moment, please, to read that. I'll read

4 it to you so you have an understanding of what's being put. It's being

5 put here that it's being said on that report on the 13th of

6 September: "Work on the clarification of this case, gathering of

7 operative information on the exact number of dead, how they were murdered,

8 and detection of possible perpetrators has been done in cooperation with,"

9 and then there's a gap. There's another gap and it says "onsite is

10 currently impossible to carry out because of the large number of units in

11 the Grabovica area, the attitude of units led by Ramiz Delalic, and fear

12 that giving importance to this incident would result in," there's a gap,

13 "return of the whole unit to Sarajevo, which would directly endanger the

14 planned action to Mostar."

15 Now, it's the fact, isn't it, that your units, your men in

16 Jablanica were very hostile to any investigation. Is that true?

17 A. No, it's not true.

18 Q. It's also the fact that you were very hostile to an investigation.

19 Is that right?

20 A. No, it's not true.

21 Q. Didn't you say quite clearly that you did not want there to be an

22 investigation?

23 A. I did not say that.

24 Q. Didn't you say that if there was an investigation, there was a

25 real danger of open clashes between the unit members and persons who would

Page 47

1 carry out the on-site inspection and possibly try to identify and arrest

2 the perpetrators. Didn't you say that?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Didn't you say it in front of three or four witnesses at Zuka's

5 flat on the evening of the 10th of September, 1993?

6 A. No, I didn't.

7 Q. And didn't you say that at an earlier discussion with Sefer

8 Halilovic, that if there was any attempt at an investigation you would

9 simply take the units back to Sarajevo. True or false?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And didn't you also say that the investigation, any investigation,

12 would endanger the operation to Mostar, yes or no?

13 A. I didn't understand the question. Could you please repeat it.

14 Q. That's okay. I'll put it again.

15 A. I'm sorry.

16 Q. You don't have to say sorry to the Defence counsel, Mr. Delalic.

17 I'll just make sure the question is clear, then answer, and we're both

18 doing our job.

19 You said, didn't you, that an investigation would result in the

20 return of the whole unit to Sarajevo. Didn't you say that in Zuka's flat

21 in front of witnesses?

22 A. Never, no.

23 Q. All right. Well, that document can be returned now.

24 All right, Mr. Delalic. Now, the position for you is this: You

25 know that the case of Grabovica is not closed. Correct?

Page 48

1 A. I have no idea. I don't know.

2 Q. You know that already two men called Hota and Sakrak have been

3 dealt with by the courts in Sarajevo for their parts in killing civilians

4 at Grabovica. Correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And you know as well that currently being investigated are at

7 least three more individuals, ex-members of the 9th Brigade, named

8 Vlaholjak, Karagic, and Rajkic; correct?

9 A. I don't know anything about that.

10 Q. And you also know, don't you, that there is a new war crimes

11 chamber in its early stages in Sarajevo, which has the competence to deal

12 with wartime atrocities. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes, I am aware of that.

14 Q. And you also know that you were from a very early stage a suspect

15 at this Tribunal, and in fact you were interviewed as a suspect by

16 representatives of the Prosecution at this Tribunal. Correct?

17 A. I am prepared to be held responsible for everything that I did, if

18 I did it.

19 Q. Just deal with the question you're being asked, please. You were

20 dealt with and interviewed as a suspect by the Prosecution. Is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And in fact, on one occasion -- well, more than one occasion, you

24 have expressed a concern that one wrong word from you could earn you 20

25 years imprisonment in The Hague. Is that correct?

Page 49

1 A. No.

2 Q. You never said that?

3 A. I don't recall ever saying that.

4 Q. Did you say it in a courtroom in Sarajevo in 1999, that one wrong

5 word from you could result in a trip to The Hague for 20 years?

6 A. No.

7 Q. But you know that you are, yourself, under suspicion for

8 involvement at Grabovica, both in the crime and, more particularly, in the

9 cover-up of that crime. Correct?

10 A. I don't know that.

11 Q. Now, it is the fact that you covered up that crime, isn't it,

12 Mr. Delalic?

13 A. I did not cover up anything.

14 Q. You came to that village and you ordered your troops to conceal

15 the traces of the crime. Correct?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And thereafter, you did everything in your power to sabotage the

18 investigation. Correct?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Now, it's the fact, isn't it, that since -- I've just got some

21 brief questions for you now before we commence with the -- with other

22 matters. Since the war -- since the crimes at Grabovica themselves in

23 1993, you've been imprisoned on three occasions. Is that right?

24 A. That is right.

25 Q. And by "imprisoned," I mean you've had to serve sentences of

Page 50

1 actual imprisonment on three occasions. Is that right?

2 A. Twice.

3 Q. And you have also had to -- have you ever left the country on a

4 false passport?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Have you ever purchased a machine-gun that was used in the attempt

7 to kill a man named Herenda?

8 A. Could you please repeat your question.

9 Q. Yes. Have you ever purchased a machine-gun or another weapon that

10 was used in an attempt to kill a man named Herenda?

11 A. No, but I did buy something similar, and that is the subject of an

12 investigation. So I would not like to say anything about that.

13 Q. Well, we'll see about that. The question is: Did you have

14 possession of such a weapon, the weapon that you -- that was used in the

15 crime against Mr. Herenda?

16 A. I do not wish to respond to this question.

17 Q. Mr. Delalic, you have to. So what's the answer?

18 A. It's not a problem. Let's turn the microphones off. This is the

19 topic of an investigation that is being conducted in Sarajevo. If we turn

20 the microphones off, then I will respond.

21 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe we could go into private session.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, I'm -- I've got my doubts

23 about doing that, frankly, and I've -- it's a pragmatic solution, but

24 frankly I don't want this witness being -- availing himself of the private

25 session for reasons of comfort. I'm not sure why and I don't want to cast

Page 51

1 any aspersions. It may be that he may wishes to speak to his lawyer about

2 this topic now and indicate what his position is. He can refuse to answer

3 it if it's going to incriminate him and then further steps take place, but

4 we need to know what the position is.

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Chana.

6 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, the witness has made it quite clear that

7 this is a matter under investigation for which he might possibly be

8 charged and I think he has very clearly said he does not wish to engage on

9 this particular issue for that reason. And I think that's quite clear

10 from what he has said, because it's not that he refuses to talk about it,

11 it's a matter under investigation. And as a result --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, if I may say something.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not a question of investigation

15 and whether I am involved or not, and I will answer without the

16 microphones. But since someone else is being charged with this crime in

17 Sarajevo, I am not the one who is charged for this crime. But this crime

18 is being investigated and some assistance is being provided in that. So I

19 am not refusing to answer the question; I will answer the question if the

20 microphones are turned off.

21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Morrissey, maybe we could go to the private

22 session at this stage since this matter will relate to another person.

23 Maybe another person's name will be mentioned.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours --

25 JUDGE LIU: And if in the future we see there's no need to keep it

Page 52

1 in the private session, we could lift the confidentiality of that piece of

2 the evidence.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Well, Your Honour's -- in fact, the

4 witness's answer there provides a good basis for going to the private

5 session, rather like my learned friend, I had inferred that it was of

6 something else. So I agree we can go to private session --

7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction, Mr. Delalic said if

8 the Court insists, he is willing to answer the question and the

9 microphones do not have to be turned off.

10 JUDGE LIU: Well, let's go to the private session on the same

11 side.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour.

13 [Private session]

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 53











11 Page 53 redacted. Private session.















Page 54

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 [Open session]

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Just excuse me one moment, please.

22 Very well. Could the witness please be shown Defence document

23 DD00-3073. Its 65 ter number is D780(b).

24 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI 420.

25 MR. MORRISSEY: Very well.

Page 55

1 Q. Very well. Do you have on your screen now --

2 A. I do.

3 Q. All right. Do you see on the screen there a judgement concerning

4 you, Ramiz Delalic, relating to --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- a crime you committed in the courtroom of Judge Ibrahim Hadzic

7 on the 28th of April, 1999? Do you see that?

8 A. I see it.

9 Q. You were in fact guilty of an offence in that court, now, weren't

10 you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. When you explained your criminal record to the Prosecutor,

13 incidentally, you didn't tell her about that one, did you?

14 A. I only talked about those acts that I was sentenced to prison for.

15 Q. Well, that's not quite right, is it? Didn't you tell her about

16 crimes where you were acquitted, such as the attempted double murder and

17 the -- the theft before the war?

18 A. I was also acquitted for this act, it seems to me.

19 Q. Well, it doesn't seem like that on the face of the record,

20 Mr. Delalic. Do you see the words: "The accused, Ramiz Delalic, son of

21 Jusuf," and other details, "owner of the Karborg [phoen] catering

22 establishment in Sarajevo, married," and these other details we don't need

23 to worry about, "is guilty."

24 Is that what it says?

25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what the witness

Page 56

1 said.


3 Q. You'll have to repeat your answer, the interpreter didn't hear

4 it.

5 A. Yes, it states that I am guilty.

6 Q. Yes, and you were guilty, weren't you?

7 A. I was not guilty.

8 Q. Very well. I'm going to take you to some parts of this, and

9 because we're working from an English copy of it we may go slowly in terms

10 of identifying the parts I want to put to you. But if you're being

11 confused or baffled in any way by my questions you're entitled to say,

12 stop, and I need time to work, because I'll warn you in advance these

13 technologies sometimes do cause delays.

14 Very well. Looking at that first page there, do you agree --

15 MR. MORRISSEY: If Your Honours just excuse me a moment, please.

16 Q. -- that you were dealt with, because having been summoned to the

17 court you told the judge -- you insulted the judge and you said that he

18 didn't know how to do his job. He wasn't authorised to hear you -- sorry,

19 you were not authorised to -- he was not authorised to hear you, that he

20 was an ordinary commie, and then you said something rude concerning Alija

21 Izetbegovic, then you threw files off the Judge's desk, you cursed his

22 mother, and you threatened to kill him. That's what you were found guilty

23 of, wasn't it?

24 A. I did not do that. These are his allegations.

25 Q. Yes. Your lawyer, Mr. Karkin, who's present here in court here

Page 57

1 today was also present for some parts of what happened on this occasion,

2 wasn't he?

3 A. Mr. Karkin was busy in a different office. And when it was all

4 over, he came.

5 Q. Very well. All right.

6 MR. MORRISSEY: Could the witness please -- could we please go

7 over to the third page in English. Just excuse me, I'm going to try to

8 locate the Bosnian page with more ease. Just excuse me a moment, please.

9 Your Honours, the part I'm going to take the witness to in the

10 English version is on page 3. We are told that on -- it's -- in the

11 Bosnian version it's on page 2 at the bottom --

12 Q. But you'll be needing to turn over to page 3 as well after that.

13 And when you get to the bottom of your page 2, you just indicate and the

14 court ushers will turn it over for you. Anyway, do you have in front of

15 you now a page saying -- a section saying: "In his defence against bill

16 of indictment number KT559/99 the accused Ramiz Delalic stated," and then

17 it goes on to give details."

18 Do you have that?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Well, in your defence - and if you need to take some time to read

21 this, just tell us and you'll be given that time of course - but in your

22 defence did you say -- did you admit to saying this: "Like hell you will

23 lock me up. Why don't you lock up the Ustashas who slaughtered Muslims?

24 If you were any younger, I'd beat you up."

25 Your Honour, I'm looking ten lines or so down from the top of that

Page 58

1 paragraph.

2 Was that part of your defence, that you did admit to doing those

3 things?

4 A. Could you please put your question. I didn't understand the

5 question.

6 Q. I'm sorry. Well, do you see here the paragraph says: "In his

7 defence, Ramiz Delalic stated," and then it lists a number of things.

8 What I'm asking you to confirm is: Did you state, did you agree yourself,

9 that you said: "Like hell you'll lock me up. Why don't you lock up the

10 Ustashas who slaughtered the Muslims. If you were any younger, I'd beat

11 you up."

12 A. I never said that, no.

13 Q. Well, first of all, do you see that written in the text that you

14 have in front of you or do you need to turn the page over?

15 A. Yes, I see that.

16 Q. Okay. All right. But your position now is that you never did say

17 that. Is that correct?

18 A. Definitely not.

19 Q. At the bottom of that paragraph in English is some other things

20 that formed part of your defence on that occasion. You may need to turn

21 over the page to see this. Could I just ask you whether on the page you

22 have the word "Alija Izetbegovic" appears at the bottom?

23 A. Yes, I see that.

24 Q. You'll just have to forgive the colourful language here. I'm just

25 reading it from the transcript. Was it part of your defence that -- you

Page 59

1 denied using the word "Izetbegovic," that you said -- that you admitted

2 that when the judge said that Alija had put him there you responded by

3 saying that comment: "May Alija fuck you."

4 Did you say that?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Did you threaten to kill the judge or curse his mother?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Now could we please turn over -- I'm going to go to another page

9 now. Could we move to page 4 of the English version, and I'll give you

10 some assistance as to which part of the Bosnian it is.

11 MR. MORRISSEY: So, Your Honours, it's page 4 of the English and

12 the words I'm going to commences with the words "witness Ibrahim Hadzic."

13 Q. Mr. Delalic, I think your part will be at the bottom of page 3 and

14 I just ask you to read that. Then when you finish reading that you can

15 move over to page 4 because there's another part there.

16 Do you see the passage beginning "Witness Ibrahim Hodzic"?

17 A. Yes.

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I apologise. It may be that this

19 has been translated with "Hodzic" in one place or two places. The correct

20 spelling is "Hadzic" in English. Very well.

21 Q. Well, do you see that the Court had evidence from the judge

22 himself, Ibrahim Hadzic, that you entered the room in an arrogant way,

23 that you immediately started insulting him by saying that he did not know

24 how to do his job nor was -- was not authorised to question him, was an

25 ordinary commie, and you swore concerning Alija.

Page 60

1 Do you see those allegations that the judge made?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. That's the truth, isn't it, that's what you did do?

4 A. I didn't do that, not in the way described here.

5 Q. And next of all, didn't you say to this judge that so many Muslims

6 had been killed, you could not understand the rationale for this

7 investigation. You see that passage, first of all, do you see that?

8 A. I can see it.

9 Q. All right. And that's true, isn't it, that's what you said to the

10 judge, isn't it?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Now let's be quite clear which investigation we're talking about.

13 That was -- you were being questioned about the crime at Grabovica,

14 weren't you, on that occasion?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Well, in the context of being questioned about the crime at

17 Grabovica, didn't you say that, so many Muslims had been killed, you can't

18 understand the rationale for that investigation. Isn't that what you

19 said, in those exact words?

20 A. No, not like that.

21 Q. You threatened to kill the judge several times?

22 A. No.

23 Q. All right. I'm now turning the page over in English to page 5.

24 Could I just inquire, Mr. Delalic, are you near the bottom of your page or

25 are you over the page to the next one.

Page 61

1 MS. CHANA: Your Honour.


3 MS. CHANA: There's been something confusing all of us on this

4 side. This document which is D00-3083 [sic] are proofing notes for

5 Mr. Enver Hodzic by one of our OTP attorneys, Patricia Sellers taken on

6 10th of May, 2005. Is that inadvertence? Have they been [inaudible] By

7 the Defence?

8 JUDGE LIU: To my understanding, this is a judgement -- well, at

9 least to my understanding is a judgement of the municipal court 1,

10 Sarajevo, against Mr. Delalic dated 15th November, 2001.

11 MR. MORRISSEY: Well --

12 JUDGE LIU: Is that true?

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, sorry, Your Honour. That's what's supposed

14 to be there. If my friend has identified something that's got in there

15 that shouldn't be there, then we'll take it out, which we will do of

16 course. Is it there? Will Your Honour allow me to clarify whether we've

17 introduced an alien life form into this document. Because if we have,

18 it's wrong, then we'll take it out.

19 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

20 [Defence counsel confer]

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honours, it would appear that page 2, as

22 numbered here, is a -- an alien -- something alien to the document and

23 should not be there. In other words, when we've scanned it, we've --

24 we've seemed to have scanned in something that has nothing to do with it.

25 Enver Hodzic is someone who I don't really know about, to be honest. But

Page 62

1 could we just ask the court to disregard that page. The next page, as

2 you'll see, is numbered properly. It's page 2, so it's evident that a

3 page of some sort has got into the English version that's come through.

4 We're sorry to the Prosecutors. It probably puts them off while they're

5 trying to follow this. I'm sorry that's happened.

6 JUDGE LIU: So you did not do it intentionally.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, I'd like to speak to my lawyer about it, if

8 I could, Your Honour, but, yes. No, my current -- I didn't do it

9 intentionally, that's true, no. So I'm sorry about that.

10 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Chana.

11 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, that's fine, and I totally accept

12 counsel's explanation on that. But I'm absolutely intrigued how

13 Ms. Patricia Seller's proofing notes have come to the possession of the

14 Defence because these are confidential to -- that's another case.

15 JUDGE LIU: That's another case. That's a case within a case.

16 Yes?

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, we'll deal with that in the break.

18 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course, of course.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: It's just got to be pointed out, Your Honour, that

20 there's one photocopying machine, Your Honour, and six defence teams

21 including Mr. Milosevic's team down there, so things happen.

22 Q. Mr. Delalic, please accept my apologies for that delay. Now,

23 could we just come back to this document here. The witness here is

24 saying, and this is on page 5 of the -- of the court record, saying that

25 you came up to him intending to hit him but that when the witness told you

Page 63

1 to go ahead and hit him, you desisted. Now, did you do that? Did you go

2 up to him and threaten to hit him?

3 A. That's not correct.

4 Q. Did you say also to this judge "call the police and we'll see if

5 the police dare arrest me"?

6 A. Well, I said something like that, but that's not how I put it.

7 Q. And did you then march out the door, slamming the door shut and

8 damaging it as you left?

9 A. No, that's not correct.

10 Q. Okay. Now, could we now move forward to a witness Leila

11 Burekovic?

12 MR. MORRISSEY: And, Your Honours, the passage that I'm looking at

13 is on page 6.

14 Q. And, Mr. Delalic, just excuse me again, we'll find a prompt for

15 the passage that you need.

16 MR. MORRISSEY: So the witness, Mr. Delalic, needs page 5 of the

17 document. It's in the middle.

18 Q. Now, this is a witness who was a typist who came into the middle

19 of the proceedings, Mr. Delalic, and she said this in her evidence. "When

20 she sat at the typewriter, Judge Hadzic immediately spoke to Celo" -- I'm

21 sorry this is the way it's written here. It says"Celo." It doesn't

22 say "Mr. Delalic," but I'll read from the record. "... immediately spoke

23 to Celo asking him if he wanted to dictate his statement for the record.

24 At that moment, Celo turned towards her and told her to start writing and

25 immediately started dictating. After several sentences, Judge Hadzic

Page 64

1 interrupted him to explain to him some things. And Celo then turned in

2 the direction of the judge saying 'I already told you not to ask me that.

3 A single word from me and I could go to The Hague for 20 years.'"

4 Do you see that passage in the material before you?

5 A. I can see it.

6 Q. That's true, isn't it?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Now, it's the fact that Mr. Karkin -- sorry, now do you see a bit

9 lower down it says "Karkin started to calm the situation down, but after

10 this Celo started shouting at the judge again and even cursed his mother

11 and insulted him by saying he did not know how to do his job."

12 Now, do you see that passage?

13 A. I can see it.

14 Q. And that's true -- and that's true, isn't it?

15 A. No, no.

16 Q. Mr. Delalic, there was another indictment against you attached to

17 this indictment, of which you were found not guilty. Is that correct?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And therefore I'm going to ask you a very, very brief question

20 about this. That other indictment concerned a threat you made -- sorry,

21 just wait a moment, please.

22 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]


24 Q. Just to resume, that other indictment that's attached to this one

25 or joined with this one concerned some angry, threatening words you made

Page 65

1 concerning a man called Ismet Dahic. Correct?

2 A. That's not correct.

3 Q. And the allegation put by the Prosecutors, which was found -- on

4 which you were found not guilty was that you had threatened to break

5 Dahic's legs with a baseball bat. Is that correct?

6 A. No.

7 Q. All right. Now, coming to the judgement.

8 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, at the bottom of page 9 in the

9 English is where I want to go now.

10 Q. And, Mr. Delalic, I'll just take you to the relevant page. Just a

11 moment. I'm sorry, you'll have to forgive the delay once again, but we're

12 just going to identify the spot in the Bosnian transcript for you.

13 Okay. Thank you very much. Mr. Delalic, we're told it's the

14 middle paragraph on page 8 of the Bosnian that you need to look at. Now,

15 this is the section of the judgement where the -- in effect, the judgement

16 is delivered and the Court makes its finding of facts and so on. Do you

17 see a passage where it says, at the bottom, a paragraph this way: "These

18 facts were established beyond doubt in the statement of Witness Ibrahim

19 Hadzic," and it summarises some of the things that he says. Do you see

20 that passage?

21 A. I can see it.

22 Q. I won't repeat everything that is said there, but if you need time

23 or you want something clarified, you may so, of course. But do you see

24 six lines down or five lines down the court goes on to say: "And also of

25 the statement of Nedzad Corovic, and Sabina Bjelak, and Leila Burekovic,

Page 66

1 who gave identical and convincing statements along the same lines as

2 Ibrahim Hadzic."

3 Do you see that?

4 A. I do.

5 Q. You would agree with this, don't you, that despite what happened

6 the Court agreed with the evidence against you that you did behave the way

7 that those witnesses allege and you did say the things those witnesses

8 claimed?

9 A. In the course of the trial and when the judgement was delivered,

10 none of these witnesses nor Ibrahim Hadzic attended the proceedings. They

11 were never present at the proceedings, so all of this is wrong.

12 Q. But despite what you say, the court went ahead and found you

13 guilty. Correct?

14 A. They did not attend any of the trials. The judge wasn't there,

15 none of the witnesses were there, so the allegations you have made are

16 completely false.

17 Q. And you were sentenced in the end to a sentence of six months

18 imprisonment, which was suspended for a period of two years. Correct?

19 A. I can't remember. If that's what it says, it must be true.

20 Q. I just have a final question about the lesser part of the

21 indictment, that concerning the supposed threats to Dahic --

22 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, before counsel --

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

24 MS. CHANA: I have been trying in vain to follow this huge

25 document on the thing, and I think Your Honours had made a ruling some

Page 67

1 time ago that, although we cannot get the documents in advance, we should

2 be provided with a paper copy the moment it's released, so -- and a

3 document of this volume -- because when counsel asked just now what his

4 sentence was, I think I had seen somewhere what it was, but now, of

5 course, I can't immediately look for it. And the witness himself does not

6 remember. And I do not wish -- of course, all the information should be

7 put before Your Honours in an accurate way.

8 JUDGE LIU: Well --

9 MS. CHANA: If we could have a copy of all their documents as they

10 produce them in Court --

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, I have to say that I have followed the

12 proceedings very well according to this e-court system. Secondly, it's a

13 judgement concerning with this witness. If the Defence has possession of

14 that, I assume that it has already been in the possession of the

15 Prosecution long before. I'd check the documents on that trolly and find

16 it. Thirdly, we made a decision on that. If a document is many, many

17 pages, the party using the document is obliged to furnish one to the other

18 party to facilitate the proceedings.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, may I say that I have some sympathy

20 for the Prosecutor in this situation. Your Honours will observe that

21 we're going at 100 miles an hour here and I'm happy to provide a copy of

22 that now.

23 JUDGE LIU: Well --

24 MR. MORRISSEY: Perhaps in the break which is coming quite soon

25 we'll have a further discussion. There may be some other documents that

Page 68

1 we can provide. So we'll see what we can do. Could I just ask the court

2 deputy to hand that over now.

3 MS. CHANA: Thank you, counsel.


5 Q. So I just had a couple of final questions concerning this

6 document. With respect to the -- the accusation that was put -- and I

7 make it clear, you were found not guilty on this crime here. I just have

8 some questions about it. You understand that there were some witnesses

9 claiming that you made this threat to break Ismet Dahic's legs or hit him

10 in the legs with a baseball bat. Do you understand that from looking at

11 this document and from the advice that you received at the time?

12 A. I didn't receive legal advice of any kind. As to what it says

13 here, that I made threats, et cetera, that is not correct.

14 Q. Well, just on that question of receiving advice, I'll ask you

15 something about that a bit later on. But is it the fact that the police

16 searched your car four days after this event and found a baseball bat

17 there and in fact confiscated that baseball bat?

18 A. The baseball bat was found in my wife's car. It was a very small

19 baseball bat. It wasn't a bat that would be used to make threats with.

20 It was my son's baseball bat.

21 Q. Was your job at that time a debt collector?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you describe yourself in the year 1997 as a debt collector?

24 A. There was a regular company that wasn't involved in forcing people

25 to pay debts, but they would collect debts, yes.

Page 69

1 Q. A final question on this document here before I seek to tender it

2 is that at the start of this document it says -- could we just go to page

3 1 for both the English and the Bosnian. I'm just going to get you to look

4 at the first paragraph here. Do you have that page in front of you now,

5 the first page?

6 Okay. Well, do you see in the first paragraph there it says, and

7 I'm looking really at the last few lines here: "After a public trial held

8 on 15 November 2001 in the presence of the accused, his counsel, Vasvija

9 Vidovic, a lawyer from Sarajevo, and in the absence of the Sarajevo deputy

10 municipal prosecutor, hereby issues the following judgement."

11 Do you see that passage?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is that accurate, despite what you said earlier? Was there a

14 public trial held in the presence of you and your counsel, Vasvija

15 Vidovic?

16 A. That's what it says. That's correct.

17 Q. But that's what happened, isn't it? There was a public trial, in

18 fact, and you were really with your lawyer, Vasvija Vidovic, on that

19 occasion. Correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, I offer that judgement for tender.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, maybe -- Ms. Chana, yes.

23 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, no, I'll have to really take this under

24 advisement at this point because I've only got until page 10 and it ends

25 with the sentence: "The court refused to enter the statements as credible

Page 70

1 because they" -- and I don't know. So I have to during the break see the

2 entire document, Your Honour, and this is --


4 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry about that. I'll give page 11. Page 11 --

5 page 11 should be on the -- on the thing, but --

6 JUDGE LIU: Your microphone, please.

7 MS. CHANA: It ends rather ominously. Now we get page 11. Thank

8 you, counsel.

9 JUDGE LIU: I understand that you're not in the position to

10 express your views concerning of this document. We could deal with it at

11 a later stage.

12 I believe it's time for us to take a break, Mr. Morrissey, since

13 you have finished this document, and we'll resume at 1.00 sharp.

14 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

15 --- On resuming at 12.59 p.m.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 A. It wasn't dark.

23 Q. Was Malco Rovcanin there or not?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. Was Fikret Kajevic there or not?

Page 71

1 A. I think so.

2 Q. Was Erdin Arnautovic there or not?

3 A. I think so.

4 Q. When did you last speak to Erdin Arnautovic?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. Was it in the last fortnight?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Have you spoken to Erdin Arnautovic since you got out of the

9 prison at the end of February?

10 A. Yes, I have.

11 Q. And have you spoken to Nedzad Mehanovic since you got out of

12 prison?

13 A. I didn't have the opportunity to see Nedzad Mehanovic because he's

14 in Germany.

15 Q. Did you speak to Elvedin Husic since you got out of prison, on the

16 28th or whenever it was in February?

17 A. Yes. Yes, I did.

18 Q. And as to Elvedin Husic, you remain a friend of his. Is that

19 correct?

20 A. We don't really see each other. I haven't seen him for a month or

21 two, something like that.

22 Q. Yes, but you are on friendly terms with him, aren't you?

23 A. We don't really have anything to do together, and we don't have

24 any common business and we really see each other very rarely.

25 Q. Did you once find yourself charged with a crime with the

Page 72

1 co-accused Elvedin Husic, a crime involving a man called Daut Basovic?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And did you also on another occasion find yourself charged with a

4 crime with the co-accused, and there were three other men accused, but one

5 of them being Nedzad Mehanovic?

6 A. I don't remember.

7 Q. An occasion when you displayed a gun, threatened people at a

8 restaurant called Bezeni and Mr. Mehanovic was charged on the same

9 indictment as possessing certain hand grenades. Do you recall that

10 charge?

11 A. Yes, I recall that, but it wasn't like that at all.

12 Q. No. Well, Mr. Mehanovic was found to be not guilty of the

13 charges. Isn't that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. But you were found to be guilty, weren't you?

16 A. Yes, to six months imprisonment.

17 Q. All right. Well, now, returning to the finding of the two boys,

18 however. On the occasion when you found those two -- when you first saw

19 those two boys, you're indicating that it was still light. Was that on

20 the afternoon, according to you, of the 9th of September?

21 A. I think that it was, yes.

22 Q. Very well. And according to you, those boys told you a very

23 distressing story about what had happened to them and to their family.

24 Correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 73

1 Q. And according to you, you were very moved by what they said. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And without any criticism of you, you'd say you were very angry to

5 hear the news of what these boys had been put through. Is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So therefore, you made inquiries among your men straight away.

8 Correct?

9 A. For half an hour to an hour I talked to those children. After

10 that, the soldiers who were present, I asked them if anybody knew anything

11 about that.

12 Q. And did you line them up?

13 A. When I asked the boys if they could recognise the perpetrators,

14 the people -- of the people who were there, I asked them could they maybe

15 recognise those who did it amongst the people who were there around us in

16 that group.

17 Q. My question to you is: Did you line them up?

18 A. I took the boys by the hand and I led them towards the fighters

19 who were there. They were on a meadow, something like that and, holding

20 that boy by the hand, I went from one fighter to the next, asking the boy

21 if he could recognise any of the people.

22 Q. Did you have the gun in your other hand?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Is that the gun given to you by President Izetbegovic?

25 A. Yes.

Page 74

1 Q. And did you line up those fighters or not?

2 A. It wasn't a classic line-up in the sense that each fighter was

3 standing next to the next one or that it was a line-up in two lines. It

4 was more that the boys went up to each of the fighters to see if they

5 could recognise them. I mean, you could describe that as a line-up if you

6 wish.

7 Q. Well, it's not what I wish, Mr. Delalic. What I'm asking you

8 is: Did you line them up? And your answer is: Well, no, you didn't but

9 you took them from person to person. Is that accurate?

10 A. Well, since I wasn't really authorised or competent -- it wasn't

11 in my competence to line them up because it wasn't only the fighters from

12 the 9th Motorised Brigade, but there were fighters from some other

13 brigades there, too. I would stop -- I stopped the fighters in what they

14 were doing. They were in the middle of a game or something, and I took

15 the boys and went from one fighter to the next and -- to see if the boy

16 could recognise anyone.

17 Q. Well, Mr. Delalic, I don't -- I wasn't there and I don't mean to

18 quarrel with you about the term "line-up," but this is the occasion, isn't

19 it, when you showed the boys those fighters. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And you didn't do a line-up on any other occasion, did you, with

22 those boys?

23 A. The first place where we tried to see if they could recognise

24 anybody was where I saw the boys first. There were several fighters

25 around them and I immediately asked the boys if they could perhaps

Page 75

1 recognise any of the perpetrators amongst those people. Later, I went to

2 a much larger group of people, and that is also where we tried to see if

3 they could recognise anyone.

4 Q. All right. And after that procedure on that second occasion, you

5 didn't line anyone else up for the boys at Grabovica. Is that correct?

6 A. No, no.

7 Q. Now, my question there has caused trouble, Mr. Delalic. I

8 said "is that correct" and you said "no." Do you mean you didn't line

9 them up again or not?

10 After -- I'll put the question again because I can see there's

11 some hidden confusion that's developed. After that occasion on the meadow

12 when you stopped the men playing and showed them to the boys, did you line

13 anyone else up on any other occasion?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Was it still light when you did this -- I'll call it "an

16 identification procedure" so that we don't quarrel about -- about it. Did

17 you perform this identification procedure while it was still light or was

18 it getting dark?

19 A. For as long as it was still visible.

20 Q. So when you showed the boys to the soldiers on the meadow, it was

21 still daylight. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And did you then take the boys in a car into Zuka's base at Donja

24 Jablanica?

25 A. Yes.

Page 76

1 Q. And was it still light or was it getting dark when you got into

2 Zuka's base at Donja Jablanica?

3 A. It was still light.

4 Q. All right. And it's after that point that you get the boys an

5 orange juice and you have a conversation with Sefer Halilovic. Is that

6 correct?

7 A. I don't know what kind of juice it was, but I did talk to Sefer

8 Halilovic and the others who were also there.

9 Q. All right. And just to be absolutely clear, this is still on the

10 evening of the 9th of September. Correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Delalic, I put this to you that you have told a false story to

13 this Court about how you dealt with those boys. Do you agree with me or

14 disagree?

15 A. No.

16 Q. All right. The truth is that you kept those boys overnight at the

17 village of Grabovica and you didn't take them in to Jablanica until the

18 next morning. Is that true?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Well, we've got evidence from one of the boys here about what

21 happened, Mr. Delalic, and he says that's what happened. Do you want to

22 stick to your story that you took him in -- took those boys in on the

23 evening of the 9th to Zuka's base at Donja Jablanica?

24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I talked to the children for about

Page 77

1 an hour. After that, I took them to Zuka's base. It is not true at all

2 that I overnighted with them in Grabovica or spent any time there longer

3 than an hour.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: Well --

5 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Chana.

6 MS. CHANA: Sorry. Sorry, counsel. I think there is a protection

7 here, I think it was Witness A.

8 JUDGE LIU: I know. We'll have that redacted.

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, well I perhaps -- I apologise for that, Your

10 Honour. It should be -- perhaps I better raise something about that at

11 the end rather than dealing with it now. I'm grateful to the Prosecutor

12 for indicating that.

13 Q. All right. Well, in any event we've got a problem here, haven't

14 we, Mr. Delalic, because we've got one account saying that you kept them

15 with -- at least one account saying that you kept them in the village

16 until the following day, the morning of the 10th, but you say that you

17 took them in on the evening of the 9th. So I want to ask you this one:

18 You, in the past, have told lies in courts, haven't you?

19 A. What I am saying to you is the following: Once I saw the children

20 in an hour or an hour and a half. After that, I took them to the command

21 where Sefer Halilovic and the others were.

22 Q. Okay. So --

23 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour, I'm referring to page 42 of the date

24 of 1st of February for future reference in terms of transcript.

25 Q. Isn't the real situation this: You did speak to the boys on the

Page 78

1 evening of the 9th, but that you didn't perform any line-up procedure

2 until the 10th.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm referring to pages 42, 43, and 44 of the

4 transcript, Your Honour.

5 Q. Isn't that the truth? You kept them there overnight and you

6 showed them some soldiers the next day. Isn't that correct?

7 A. I never said anything like that.

8 Q. Well, I know you didn't say it. All right. Sorry. What -- just

9 be clear about that -- I'll come to that later on. All right. And your

10 account of giving those boys juice and going in and talking to Halilovic,

11 inspection team members, Bojadzic and Zulfikar Alispago, I put to you, is

12 a fiction made up by you to protect your position. Do you agree?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Because in reality, what you did was to bring those children on

15 the morning of the 10th, hand them over to Nihad Bojadzic alone, and then

16 drive Sefko Hodzic, the journalist, into Jablanica. Isn't that accurate?

17 A. No.

18 Q. So we have evidence here in this court from the journalist Hodzic

19 as to what he saw you do on that morning, the 10th. His evidence is that

20 you came along in the morning, handed the boys over to Bojadzic, remaining

21 at Donja Jablanica for a very short time, and then took him in, in your

22 car, into Jablanica town. Do you agree with that?

23 MS. CHANA: Your Honour -- sorry for interrupting, counsel.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

25 MS. CHANA: If counsel is going to refer to testimony of witnesses

Page 79

1 in the past, which he's quite entitled to do, I think he has to reference

2 the transcript because he cannot summarise like this, like the one -- the

3 transcript he just referred to. So it's quite clear what the particular

4 witness had to say on a certain issue because it's very difficult for --

5 for myself to go back into that particular witness's evidence to -- to see

6 what was exactly said. So I would request this Chamber to invite the

7 Defence counsel, if they're going to refer to any witness's testimony, to

8 have the pages of the transcript at hand so we can see and they can

9 indicate to the court that that is -- and to the witness and there is the

10 question what another witness has said. It has got to be accurate, Your

11 Honour, otherwise it does not work.

12 JUDGE LIU: Well, I believe Mr. Morrissey has already informed us

13 about the pages of the transcript. And here we just want to make sure on

14 which date of court was it on.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour --

16 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Morrissey, at the same time you also have to bear

17 in mind the objections from the Prosecution. If possible, you could read

18 these transcripts.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Well, Your Honours, could I just indicate --

20 it's a matter of some importance and frankly the Prosecutor has a good

21 point in some respects. Particularly where a certain word is at issue, I

22 agree, I should have to -- I don't think it's in any doubt that what I've

23 put is the substance of what the witness Hodzic had to say. That was the

24 account that he gave. We will provide the exact transcript references in

25 a moment. Of course, it's a great risk for the Defence if you put it

Page 80

1 inaccurately because, first of all, you look very bad, and secondly the

2 triumphant Prosecutor will then point it out. So, anyway, Your Honours, I

3 will proceed as I was now, bearing in mind what Your Honour's said and

4 what my learned friend is asking for as well.

5 Q. But in general terms -- Mr. Delalic, I apologise for that. But in

6 general terms, we've got another problem, haven't we, because Hodzic says

7 one thing and you say another. Now, do you stand firm by your account

8 that you really did take the boys in by -- get them juice, and have that

9 awful discussion with Halilovic, Zuka, and others?

10 A. What I said is correct.

11 Q. And just bearing in mind any conflict between your evidence and

12 that of Mr. Hodzic that might be detected by the Trial Chamber at a later

13 time, when it comes to such conflicts between you and Mr. Hodzic, do you

14 know whether Mr. Sefko Hodzic has ever shot any people in the leg at the

15 Stefanel cafe?

16 A. When the children were brought to the command or to the IKM, very

17 shortly after that, perhaps after about half an hour, Sefko Hodzic was the

18 first person to interview the children, who told him the story. They told

19 him everything that they had told me. Mr. Sefko Hodzic never passed that

20 story on. So you can then see what kind of a man we're talking about. As

21 far as the shooting, I'm really not interested in whether there was such a

22 shooting or not.

23 Q. All right. Well, you may not be interested in whether Mr. Hodzic

24 shot anyone in the leg at the Stefanel cafe. But you did, didn't you?

25 A. That is correct. The gentleman whom I fired at and who was

Page 81

1 wounded had served seven years in prison for a rape. During the war he

2 was a deserter, and on several occasions, he was charged of being

3 disorderly, of being violent. There was an -- a warrant out for him, and

4 on that occasion during the war we found him at the Stefanel cafe, and he

5 also was armed. He had a gun on him.

6 Q. Was there another man that you shot at the Stefanel cafe in the

7 leg?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you shoot at another man's feet and he accidentally got a

10 ricocheted bullet in the leg at the Stefanel cafe?

11 A. I don't know anything about that.

12 Q. Just dealing with the Sefko Hodzic issue, did Sefko Hodzic ever

13 travel on a false passport, to your knowledge?

14 A. You're asking me silly things. Could you please ask me a specific

15 question. I'm really not interested whether Sefko Hodzic travelled with a

16 false passport or whether he fired at anyone. Could you please ask me

17 something else?

18 Q. I'm going to ask you the questions that I want to ask you, thanks.

19 My next question is: You're effectively, I suggest to you,

20 smearing the character of Sefko Hodzic because you know that his evidence

21 could possibly hurt you. Is that correct?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And isn't that a tactic of yours, to smear anyone who can hurt

24 you?

25 A. No.

Page 82

1 Q. Did you say yesterday that -- who was the commander of the 1st

2 Corps? Perhaps I'll stop the questioning --

3 JUDGE LIU: Well, yes, we might have a problem with the LiveNote.

4 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm afraid even I can't think of a conspiracy

5 concerning that one, Your Honour.

6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Might I just inquire whether I'm the only one

8 whose system is down or whether everyone is -- everyone's in trouble.

9 JUDGE LIU: I think everything is okay. You may proceed.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, Your Honour, we'll just wait until we've

11 got the -- okay. Thank you.

12 Your Honours, I've just been provided with the relevant transcript

13 and I think I'll -- because of my friend's question I better put it.

14 Your Honours, we're dealing with the 23rd of March, and this is in

15 relation to -- to the Hodzic testimony. We're dealing with the 23rd of

16 March, 2005, at pages 79, 80, 81, and 82 for completeness's sake.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE LIU: I'm afraid that you have to wait for a few minutes.

19 Can you try?

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Of course.

21 JUDGE LIU: Mr. Morrissey.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: We can.

23 Q. All right. Mr. Delalic, we're going to attempt another question

24 here. Before --

25 JUDGE LIU: Well, well, it's gone.

Page 83

1 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, could I indicate something very

2 briefly?


4 MR. MORRISSEY: I think it's likely we go into Friday with this

5 witness. I intend to do my best to finish him by the weekend, so I

6 indicate that so he can make the plans he has to make. That's my

7 intention. Just a timing comment to fill up time, really, Your Honour.

8 My apologies, but it could be of relevance in terms of whether we adjourn

9 for now because we're not going to finish him tomorrow. I think it's very

10 unlikely.

11 JUDGE LIU: So you suggest that we adjourn now?

12 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm in the Court's hands. I'm very happy

13 standing. But, Your Honours, it may just be -- as we only have 13 minutes

14 left, I'm happy to suggest that we adjourn now.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 I see no objections from the Prosecution.

17 MS. CHANA: No objection, Your Honour, we are in the Court's hands

18 as well.

19 JUDGE LIU: Thank you.

20 Well, Witness, I believe you still remember what I told you

21 yesterday?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

23 JUDGE LIU: So the hearing for today is adjourned. We'll resume

24 tomorrow morning at 9.00.

25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.34 p.m.,

Page 84

1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of

2 May, 2005, at 9.00 a.m.