Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1

1 Thursday, 19 May 2005

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE LIU: Call the case, please, Mr. Court Deputy.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-01-48-T, the Prosecutor versus Sefer Halilovic.

8 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

9 Before we have the witness, I believe that we will hear the response from

10 the Defence concerning of the response filed by the Prosecution to the

11 Defence motion concerning tendering of the military expert report. And

12 the Prosecution filed this motion the day before yesterday, and it says

13 "Having again reviewed the report in the light of the Defence objection,

14 the Prosecution informed the Trial Chamber that it no longer intends to

15 rely upon the report in its entirety or in an abridged form. The

16 Prosecution seeks a general opinion from the General as to the duty and

17 humanitarian law of a superior and, in particular, the practical steps

18 that a superior should take when he or she has received actual inquiry

19 notice of the criminality of his or her subordinates."

20 The Prosecution further claimed that "The Trial Chamber, of

21 course, retains its role in deciding whether to accept the expert's view

22 point and deciding the weight to be given to it."

23 So at this moment, since this witness is supposed to be here

24 sometime next week, we would like to hear the initial response from the

25 Defence.

Page 2

1 Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour. The initial response is

3 that we oppose any such last-minute attempt to change the Prosecution

4 case. We've got opposition based in -- on substantial objections and

5 we've got procedural objections which are not mere procedural objections

6 but procedural objections that go to preserve the fairness of the trial

7 and the safety of it.

8 In the first place, in terms of substantial objections, we note

9 that what is clearly being sought here is an attempt to create obligations

10 where the Prosecution are unable to identify what they are at the moment.

11 In this report here, you're not told what the Prosecution are going to say

12 about the obligations Mr. Halilovic had. The Prosecution themselves still

13 don't know. They are going to see him tomorrow. And Mr. Re made the

14 point here in Court that the law about this is very scant, I think was his

15 word, or very thin, and the substantive objection, therefore, is that --

16 or one of the substantive objections is this: The Prosecution doesn't

17 know what the law is. They say Mr. Halilovic should have known what the

18 law is. They say he should have complied with something that they don't

19 know what it is. They are going to find out on Friday what a British

20 general who has no law degree says it is today in 2005.

21 Now, that is -- offends against a number of principles. It is an

22 ultimate issue question, firstly. Secondly, it clearly steps into

23 Your Honour's function. You, the Bench, are the experts in international

24 humanitarian law and it is you who will decide these matters, and you will

25 not be assisted by a non-lawyer making general comments about

Page 3

1 international humanitarian law. It's just not his field of expertise.

2 Mr. Re indicated what a good CV this person had, and as a military expert

3 speaking about his area of expertise he has very impressive

4 qualifications. But that's not what is being asked of him. He's being

5 asked, it's quite clear, to give general -- a general opinion, I'm not

6 making this up myself but quoting from Mr. Re's -- "a general opinion from

7 the general as to the duties under international humanitarian law of a

8 superior and in particular the practical steps that he should take."

9 Now Your Honours are familiar with what is in here; I won't read

10 it back. It's quite clear what is being sought here is in effect a

11 judgement, a ruling of law. The Prosecutor says you retain your role in

12 deciding whether to accept that or not, but of course you do. But that

13 applies to the Prosecution's closing submissions. And what's really being

14 sought here is to get into evidence the Prosecution's closing submission,

15 to say, Look, Halilovic should have done this, this is what international

16 humanitarian law requires and Halilovic should have complied with it. But

17 they don't know what international humanitarian law required. They've

18 made that absolutely clear. This document here is -- I mean, I feel like

19 tender this in evidence myself because it makes it quite clear that --

20 well, it's one aspect of their case only, of course. There are many other

21 parts that remain in contention, but on this aspect the Prosecution

22 doesn't know what the requirements were, nor do they put before the Court

23 any coherent version of what was required. And this therefore, is not a

24 proper area for expertise and it's not a proper area for expert opinion so

25 we are against it on that basis.

Page 4

1 We are against it on another of other bases as well. Apart from

2 the ultimate issue objection, the invading in the Trial Chamber's area of

3 discretion objection, the procedural objections here are not mere

4 procedure. It is an astounding situation in this, a Tribunal of this

5 level of law, that at the end of a case like this, we have expended our

6 energies on dealing with it this witness, and frankly with a view to

7 discrediting him to be told now, Well, that's not the evidence he's going

8 to give. You've wasted your time. Now we are going to call something

9 completely different from him, general legal evidence about what

10 international human -- humanitarian law requires.

11 And we don't know what he's going to say. They haven't given us

12 the report. They are going to see him on Friday. I spoke to Mr. Re and

13 he indicated to me, and I'm -- we are grateful to him, of course, for

14 trying the best that he can and we are not making a personal criticism of

15 Mr. Re. He's got a case to deal with, he's got to try to put it as well as

16 he can to the Court. So what I'm saying now is not meant to be a personal

17 criticism. He's going to go to London, he's going to endeavour to get a

18 report of some description from the general and then he's going to

19 endeavour to provide that to us electronically as soon as he can. So if

20 the Prosecution -- if things go well for them, they may be in a position

21 to provide us with a document on Friday. Now, these events happened in

22 1993. The investigation was on foot by 1996, as you've heard from this

23 witness, and the trial itself has been on foot for a long time. I suppose

24 I'm beating the obvious now to say it's too late. You can't introduce

25 evidence like this when it's suspicious -- well, it's -- I say suspicious

Page 5

1 when it's -- when a -- on a -- on a substantive basis whatever this

2 witness says, bearing in mind what the Prosecution say they want from him,

3 whatever he says is likely to be inadmissible and not useful because it --

4 for the substantive reasons I've said.

5 The Defence is -- we are not on notice yet what he's going to say.

6 We don't know what he's going to say. We can't get expert opinions of our

7 own of what he's going to say. We can do the best we can. We have been

8 in the case, of course, and we know the evidence and we are with some

9 fortunate expertise in international humanitarian on our team. But this

10 is not a way to run a trial. You don't come at the end of the trial and

11 say you can have four, maybe five days notice to deal with a whole new

12 area of law a general opinion on international humanitarian law. And for

13 those reasons you should enforce the rules -- I'm sorry, my learned -- I

14 just didn't know my learned friend was coming, actually. He's here.

15 Your Honours I'm happy just so that Mr. Re can understand what's being

16 said here, and I'd better -- I'll recapitulate very briefly. I won't

17 repeat it all but -- just so he understands it, that we are saying that

18 there are substantive objections and procedural objections. The

19 substantive ones are an as indicated, it's an invasion of the Trial

20 Chamber's duties and it breaches the ultimate issue rule. It won't assist

21 the Tribunal. It will waste your time. In fact, it's not a proper area

22 nor expertise, nor does this witness have the expertise to give that

23 evidence, and I'm now moving on to the procedural matters.

24 The procedural matters in short are that we don't have the report,

25 we are not going to be able to prepare for it properly, it's doubtful that

Page 6

1 we would -- this is not something that will be cured by adjournment. I

2 mean, we have other things we have to do now and we are becoming busy.

3 We've got a 98 bis to consider. We've got a Defence case to consider for

4 what remains of the case, if any, after the 98 bis stage

5 and we also have, of course, to -- to deal with two witnesses. And this

6 witness now who has come up with a with a major new amount of evidence

7 that Your Honours have seen. And you'll assess that as you wish in the

8 future but I have to deal with it and -- obviously, and that will become

9 apparent this morning. We've been working very hard on seeking to rebut

10 some of the -- these new allegation that have surfaced.

11 So we are busy. We don't want this to emerge and -- now the

12 procedural objections are that we haven't got the report, the

13 Prosecution's failed to abide by the deadline set by the Pre-Trial Judge

14 to disclose that report which was two years ago. And in any event, Your

15 Honours will recall before the break, and there was an enforced break in

16 these proceedings because Your Honours had to deal with another case, that

17 before that break, it was discussed that by providing the expert report to

18 us before that break, that break would not be a waste. And in fact in the

19 course of that break we would all benefit because the Defence would have

20 time to prepare the expert, we wouldn't need extra time et cetera, et

21 cetera, but that hasn't happened and we are now prejudiced. So the

22 Defence doesn't have adequate time to prepare, and nor is an adjournment

23 going to cure that because the rest of the case is now pending. There are

24 various pressures on this Court to finish, which we understand; we all

25 have to finish it. And frankly, there is another thing which may not

Page 7

1 weigh strictly but it's something you've always got to consider.

2 Mr. Halilovic is in custody here and adjournments generally are not a

3 basis for releasing somebody from custody. Is he to sit there in custody

4 playing volleyball with the other people out there while we consider the

5 new report of the Prosecutor? It just shows a disregard, really, for

6 Mr. Halilovic, frankly. Although it's not a basis that you'll decide this

7 on, it's a relevant matter to consider, frankly.

8 Your Honours, we are entitled to know in detail the nature of the

9 charges against us. For a long time now, Mr. Mettraux has been asking in

10 court what's the body of law that the Prosecutors are relying on, and now

11 you can see why we don't get an answer. They don't know. They are not

12 sure and they are going to go and ask General Ridgeway to give them a body

13 of law to rely upon and then maybe they will call the witness to say how

14 Sefer Halilovic might have been known about that.

15 Your Honours, finally the Defence will suffer prejudice about

16 there because whatever comes in that report surely we should have known

17 about it so we could seek to rebut it through the actual evidence of

18 witnesses. If, for example, witnesses such as use Jusuf Jasarevic or

19 Vahid Karavelic are people who weren't called strictly as experts but they

20 were people who had knowledge of particular areas. Jasarevic, Eminovic,

21 Dzankovic were all members of the SVB. And had we known that something

22 like this was coming perhaps -- and if we had details of what the duties

23 that a British general thinks should have been followed, well, we might

24 have asked the witnesses whether that duty was a practical reality in

25 Bosnia in 1993 and we might have got answers one way or the other. We

Page 8

1 don't know, I'm pretty sure I know what the answers would be. But we

2 can't do that now. They are gone. And we didn't have in our hands this

3 expert report, so it will be a very platonic report in the atmosphere

4 without any application here. Therefore it won't assist you.

5 Sorry, Your Honour, just excuse me. Pardon me. It's pointed out

6 that the Prosecution in fact took a decision not to call Bahrudin Camal

7 [phoen] which, as you'll recall he was the alleged military Prosecutor

8 available at the time to whom Halilovic should have turned and as it

9 turned out the Prosecutors decided not to call him. Anyway, that's a

10 peripheral matter, really, so matters of substance say that he's not a

11 good witness and matters of form say that it's too late to try him. So we

12 are going to oppose him.

13 And in the event -- and, frankly, we think that it wouldn't change

14 things if -- if we got the report here so that's why we are prepared to

15 reply now. But I should note at this stage we are just in a difficult

16 position because we don't have the report but Mr. Re has been good

17 enough -- and I should indicate that we are grateful to him for taking the

18 trouble to spell out what's intended because it means we can put an

19 argument today and we appreciate that professional approach. But

20 nevertheless, that's our position.

21 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

22 Well, since Mr. Re is present in this courtroom, do you want to

23 give a short response to the Defence position?

24 MR. RE: I can. Thank you, Your Honours for the opportunity to

25 address you on that. Our response, filed on the 18th, provided the day

Page 9

1 before, makes it quite clear that we no longer seek to rely upon the

2 original report which was filed. We have taken on board the matters which

3 Defence counsel have pointed out and also Your Honours concerns in

4 relation to the expert commenting on the factual matters in the case. The

5 Prosecution still says that the Trial Chamber would benefit from a very

6 short, a very brief expert view as to the practical measures that a

7 commander or superior could or should take in a factual situation. The

8 Defence have always been on notice that we intended to call the expert

9 evidence at the end of the case and that anything an expert said would be

10 in light of the evidence given at trial.

11 Now, the particular area of law which -- international

12 humanitarian law in which the Trial Chamber would be greatly benefited by

13 expert military opinion is in relation to the failure to prevent which

14 only pertains to the charge in relation to Grabovica. As we pointed out

15 in our motion, the jurisprudence of this Tribunal and indeed under

16 customary law is fairly thin on the ground in relation to the practical

17 measures that a commander should take to prevent criminality. The closest

18 we can find as we've noted in the motion is in the Blaskic -- is a

19 combination of the Blaskic Trial Chamber judgement and the Celebici

20 Appeals Chamber judgement. Now, they're more -- they don't go into detail

21 as to what a commander could do or should do to prevent criminality by his

22 subordinates. That's an area in which it's not really in our submission

23 an area which the law particularly solves. Because it's not one you'll

24 find in the regulations or the military -- or military hand books. It's

25 something which comes from a combination of experience and the application

Page 10

1 of those particular rules. So that's -- that's the main area in which we

2 would seek to bring a brief opinion on that.

3 Now, I've spoken to my learned friend about -- I do -- we do

4 understand it's -- where we are in the proceedings. Our intention is to

5 have something by tomorrow, setting out what the general's opinion is on

6 this particular matter. Now, if the Defence can't meet it when we have

7 the report, in my respectful submission, the time to deal with it is then.

8 If we produce something tomorrow, hand it to the Defence, and they can't

9 deal with it in the time in our submission they can renew -- they should

10 renew the application but they should await to see what the general has to

11 say because it could well be something that assists the Defence. One

12 never knows. And if the Defence asks for a ruling now instead of awaiting

13 tomorrow, it could well, of course, prejudice the Defence preparations for

14 their own case.

15 We have made it quite clear that we are not seeking the expert to

16 give any opinion on the ultimate issue or the guilt or innocence of the

17 accused but only the theoretical position under international humanitarian

18 law to provide the Trial Chamber with some guidance because at the end of

19 the case, of course, it's a matter of submission by both parties based

20 upon the -- based upon the evidence before the Trial Chamber.

21 In our submission, the expert -- the Trial Chamber would be

22 greatly assisted by a small piece of expert evidence which could -- we say

23 could fill in a potential gap in the body of -- or guide the Tribunal in

24 assisting to fill in a gap in which -- which may exist in international

25 humanitarian law at the moment. My learned colleague also referred to the

Page 11

1 question his co-counsel, Mr. Mettraux keeps asking about the body of law.

2 General Ridgeway isn't going to assist the Trial Chamber in the body of

3 law which is to be applied because the body of law to be applied is

4 clearly set out in the statute, the laws and customs of war, the Geneva

5 Conventions, and so on. The general can only give his opinion based upon

6 his understanding of the body of law and from his experience as the former

7 director general of education and training in the British army and his

8 experience in the Balkans of law, as he understand it, and the duties and

9 what a commander could and should do under that situation.

10 Our position is wait until they get the report tomorrow. If it

11 can't be dealt with, then renew the application and we will review our

12 attitude to whether we wish to pursue the matter.

13 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. Could I ask how soon we could

14 receive that report from the Prosecution?

15 MR. RE: The soonest would be tomorrow afternoon. We plan to

16 speak to General Ridgeway in the morning so that the practical soonest we

17 could get it to anyone would be tomorrow afternoon sometime.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much.

19 I believe that the bench have to elaborate on that issue based on

20 the submissions from the both parties, so right now we are not in the

21 position to make a ruling at this moment. But, however, we will do that

22 as early as possible.

23 Yes. Having said that, could we have the witness, please?

24 [The witness entered court]


Page 12

1 JUDGE LIU: Good morning, Witness.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

3 JUDGE LIU: Are you ready to continue?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

5 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. Now, Mr. Morrissey?

6 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you, Mr. Delalic.

7 Could the witness please be shown Exhibit P290?

8 Cross-examined by Mr. Morrissey: [Continued]

9 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, Your Honours, we may have a technical

10 problem here.

11 Q. Mr. Delalic, what I'm hoping you have on your screen there is the

12 letter by Mr. Karavelic dated the 5th of September. Is that what you

13 have?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Just excuse me, I apologise for the delay here. Okay. Now, here

16 we have a letter addressed by Mr. Karavelic to Sefer Halilovic. You see

17 there that it says that at 2200 hours last night on the night of the 4th

18 going into the early morning of the 5th of September, that a company of

19 soldiers from your motorised brigade was ready for the task in question.

20 Now, that's true, that was the fact, wasn't it?

21 A. Unit from the 9th Motorised Brigade was ready but they didn't

22 leave because of bad weather. But I don't know how it came about that

23 this letter was drafted and why they didn't leave.

24 Q. Okay. I'm just putting the facts to you at the moment. All

25 organisational and material preparations for those units had been

Page 13

1 completed. And that's true as well, isn't it?

2 A. I don't know. I don't remember the preparations, but the unit

3 from the 9th Motorised Brigade was supposed to leave on the 3rd but this

4 was postponed like I said before because of Mr. Karavelic who was in

5 disagreement with Mr. Sefer Halilovic and did not respect that order.

6 Q. At 2230 hours, when the vehicles arrived, due to a major storm,

7 Caco and Celo personally proposed to me, Karavelic, that the departure be

8 postponed for 24 hours. Now, that's true, isn't it?

9 A. No, that is not true.

10 Q. No? And then after that, it says, "however, after that in the

11 course of today, it was put off completely." Now that's true as well,

12 isn't it?

13 A. No.

14 Q. And you see there that are there is a comment from Mr. Karavelic,

15 "I am aware of the overall situation in our area in the zone of the 4th

16 and 6th Corpses. Unfortunately such are the circumstances." Now is it

17 your allegation that despite this letter here, that it was Vahid Karavelic

18 himself who countermanded Sefer Halilovic's order?

19 A. I don't know what you're thinking or what Mr. Karavelic was

20 thinking. I don't know whether this was something that was countermanded

21 or not, but I think that this pretext about the bad weather was not true.

22 The order said that we were supposed to leave on the 3rd or the 4th. This

23 order was not respected. Later we got another order saying that we were

24 supposed to leave on the 6th or the 7th and we did carry out that order.

25 Q. Well, the position is this: That unit was supposed to leave

Page 14

1 earlier, you say on the 3rd, and in any event according to that on the

2 4th. But that unit didn't go. Now, what I'm asking you is this: You had

3 according to you a verbal order from Halilovic and an order from

4 Karavelic, both, to send the units out and the question I'm asking you is

5 why didn't you do that?

6 A. The 9th Motorised Brigade respected any order in relation to the

7 1st Corps and it would have respected this one as well but if it states

8 that because of the weather it could not leave, maybe it was true, I don't

9 really remember. I don't remember this order or an order of this type,

10 and I think that for all of that time, there were many disagreements

11 between Mr. Halilovic and Mr. Karavelic. Mr. Karavelic thought that units

12 should not leave Sarajevo at all to go to the Jablanica sector because he

13 felt that the lines in Sarajevo and around Sarajevo would be weakened

14 while Mr. Halilovic was in favour of these units leaving, and this was

15 actually the cause of a conflict between the two of them.

16 Q. Yes. But never mind the conflict between them. I'm asking about

17 you. Why didn't you send the troops out? Was it because Karavelic told

18 you not to or was it for some other reason?

19 A. I really don't remember. I don't recall this order. I don't

20 know. I don't know what -- how to answer that question.

21 Q. Let me put a proposition to you. Is the real reason that they

22 didn't go is simply because you and Caco decided you didn't want to go?

23 Is that the real reason?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You make a climb don't you that later on, on or about the 7th of

Page 15

1 September that Vahid Karavelic gave you an order, an oral order, verbal

2 order, to go out with those troops and take them to Bradina. Is that your

3 evidence?

4 A. We received such an order, the 9th Motorised Brigade did. I don't

5 know what order the other units received but the 9th Motorised Brigade

6 received an order on the 6th to carry out all preparations so that a unit

7 could be sent to the Jablanica sector or actually the Bradina sector.

8 Q. Yes. But you haven't answered my question. You received -- you,

9 Ramiz Delalic, received an order according to you from Vahid Karavelic to

10 take the troops to Bradina. Is that true?

11 A. I didn't receive an order to take the unit to Bradina myself.

12 This was an order for the 9th Motorised Brigade to be delivered to Ramiz

13 Delalic. But the substance of the order was not that I personally should

14 take the unit there.

15 Q. Well didn't you say -- I just want to be clear about this. Wasn't

16 it your evidence -- wasn't it your evidence when you gave evidence on the

17 first day here that you were told verbally by Karavelic to go out through

18 the tunnel and to take these units as far as Bradina?

19 A. No. That is not true. The unit left Sarajevo at approximately --

20 I don't know exactly what time it was. It was dark. Because of the

21 shelling we were waiting until it got dark so that the unit could leave

22 Sarajevo. The unit went by itself and it reached Hrasnica. After the

23 problems that happened in Hrasnica I received an oral order to leave in

24 order to deal with these problems relating to the transport of the

25 soldiers.

Page 16

1 Q. All right. Well at all events you agree with this: You claim

2 that Karavelic sent you through the tunnel on that night, is that true?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Got a problem here because he says, this is page 13 on the 20th of

5 April, Your Honours, he says he didn't give any such permission for you to

6 go through so do you stand by this, that Karavelic told you to go through

7 the tunnel?

8 A. Mr. Karavelic, after sending the unit off in front of the 9th

9 Brigade command remained there for another hour to an hour and a half. We

10 were already at the command of the 9th Motorised Brigade when we learned

11 about the problems the units that had left Sarajevo were encountering in

12 Hrasnica and that is when I received an oral order from Mr. Karavelic to

13 leave Sarajevo and go there in order to resolve these problems.

14 Q. Did you make a claim that the commander of the 1st Corps sent

15 people to dig trenches, in this Court?

16 A. I did not claim that it was the corps commander but there were

17 such instances when the corps commander or his deputy would send certain

18 individuals to dig trenches.

19 Q. By that corps commander are you talking about Vahid Karavelic?

20 A. Amongst others, yes, Vahid Karavelic.

21 Q. Let's concentrate on Karavelic right now. You are making a claim

22 that Karavelic sent people to dig trenches; is that correct, yes or no?

23 A. This did not happen very often. I, for example, know of one or

24 two cases where the commander personally sent some people to dig trenches.

25 Q. Just one second. Well, can I put this to you? It's your tactic,

Page 17

1 isn't it, to smear those who can hurt you and that's why you make this

2 comment about Karavelic taking people to dig trenches. Do you agree with

3 that?

4 A. No, I don't.

5 Q. And did you make a claim in court on Tuesday that Sefer Halilovic

6 sent people to dig trenches and including asking you to send people to dig

7 trenches? Did you make that claim?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You referred to a person called Esad Cesko, didn't you, as a

10 person taken by Halilovic -- I'm sorry, sent by you to dig trenches on the

11 orders of Halilovic and that he had to be taken to hospital after seven

12 days and after that he was taken away by Saco's soldiers and spent more

13 time on the front line. Do you remember giving that evidence?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Well, we've made an inquiry with Mr. Cesko, and I want to put this

16 to you and ask for your response to it. Sarajevo, dated 29 April 2005.

17 "Responding to the questions of Peter Morrissey, counsel for Sefer

18 Halilovic" -- perhaps I'm going to circulate these. Can just ask that

19 copies of these be given to the Judges and the Prosecutor?

20 Your Honours I'm just going to -- because this is not uploaded I'm

21 going to provide a hard copy to the Prosecutors and to Your Honours and

22 there is a B/C/S version to be given to the -- to Mr. Halilovic. If you

23 need to see a copy of this letter, you may feel free to ask for one. In

24 fact, I think the witness should be shown a copy in B/C/S. Could he

25 please be shown a copy in B/C/S?

Page 18

1 MS. CHANA: Is Mr. Cesko going to be called as a witness by the

2 Defence. It's important for us to know this at this stage.

3 MR. MORRISSEY: The answer to -- to that is, we'll see what this

4 witness says when we he's confronted with it. Now, could the witness

5 please be shown a copy -- he doesn't have the B/C/S yet.

6 Q. All right. Now I just want to put this to you. You can read it.

7 "Responding to the questions of Peter Morrissey, counsel for Sefer

8 Halilovic before The Hague Tribunal, I can state the following." In

9 paragraph 1 he gives some personal details which we needn't trouble you

10 with. Then paragraph 2: "On the 1st of September 1993 three armed men

11 unknown to me came to my business area of my company, a pastry in the

12 Djure Djakovic street number 2, Centar municipality, and ordered me that I

13 have to go with them to Celo's command. I objected and did not want to

14 go. I said I will only go if I received a written request and that I will

15 then come in myself. They went away and came back a half an hour later

16 with a written invitation for me to report to Trampina street number 14.

17 On the invitation it was stated that it was sent from the municipal

18 secretariat for the People's Defence for the Centar municipality. It was

19 signed by Armor Konjuhodzic [phoen], assistant secretary of the Centar

20 municipality. When I arrived to the 9th Brigade -- when I arrived to the

21 command of the 9th Brigade, a certain Dzin asked me to pay 5.000

22 deutschmarks in order for me to be released. I refused and said that I

23 had I have no money, that I have already assisted the army giving my means

24 to the 1st Corps. Dzin showed me a whole notebook of certificates with

25 amounts on them.

Page 19

1 As I still did not want to pay, Dzin took me to Celo who I didn't

2 know from before. Celo said I would have to go to dig trenches. They

3 took my personal documents and clothes and they had given me a blue

4 working suit and then they took me to the Spicasta Stijena, pointy rock,

5 to dig trenches. I fled after a few days when I found out that Celo had

6 left the city. I reported this case to the police administration and the

7 military security. I stress that I had met Sefer Halilovic on a few

8 occasions during the war and after the war. Our relationships always used

9 to be and still are correct and we never had any disagreements. Signed

10 Esad Cesko."

11 Now, Mr. Delalic, what I want to put to you is Mr. Cesko was not

12 taken the way you say on the orders of Halilovic but he was taken in the

13 way he says on the orders of you. Do you agree with that, yes or no?

14 A. According to my information, the information that I have, Madam

15 Dika who was the chief of cabinet of Sefer Halilovic as well as his lover,

16 she told Sefer Halilovic and also she told me personally that that man

17 should be taken for digging. So Mr. Sefer Halilovic and Dika, who was the

18 chief of cabinet of Mr. Halilovic, they told me that that man should be

19 sent for digging. I don't know. As far as I know, these 5.000 German

20 marks, I don't know about that. You have to call Mr. Dzin, that is Jukic

21 Izet who was the deputy commander for logistics in the 9th Motorised

22 Brigade. You have to call him and ask him whether he was asking for money

23 or not.

24 Q. Well, Mr. Jukic is a friend of yours, isn't it, Dzin, he's a

25 friend of yours?

Page 20

1 A. Mr. Jukic is a businessman from Sarajevo and he's an acquaintance

2 of mine from the war. I know him. I haven't seen him for a while. We

3 are not really seeing each other regularly but we know each other.

4 Q. Okay. Your claim that Sefer Halilovic sent people to take -- to

5 dig trenches is simply an attempt by you to make him seem as bad as you,

6 isn't that correct? Smear him.

7 A. There were scores of cases in Sarajevo when Mr. Sefer Halilovic

8 had sent people for digging or instructed that cars be seized from them.

9 These are not just my experiences. These experiences are known to other

10 commanders as well, and you can call them and ask them also.

11 Q. Okay. Well, we've also contacted Ms. Sadika Omerbegovic. I'm

12 going to put what she's written to us as well. Perhaps if the same thing

13 could occur here, if the English translations would be circulated to the

14 various people. And could a Bosnian copy be provided to the accused man

15 and also to the witness? In the meantime, I would ask that Mr. Delalic

16 please return the copy of the previous letter that he was provided with.

17 So the person you've referred to as Dika, her real name is Sadika

18 Omerbegovic; is that correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Although you're prepared to ask for private session in relation to

21 certain matters you're prepared to simply make accusations that Sadika

22 Omerbegovic was Halilovic's lover in open court; is that right?

23 A. All of Sarajevo knows that.

24 Q. All right. Come to the substance of this letter here. "At the

25 question of Mr. Peter Morrissey, Defence counsel representing Sefer

Page 21

1 Halilovic before The Hague Tribunal, on the circumstances of, one, giving

2 money to Ramiz Delalic, Celo and, two, giving to Ramiz Delalic Celo a list

3 of names of people to be taken to dig trenches, I have the following to

4 state." We will come to paragraph 2 first of all. The other one relates

5 to this giving of money which we'll deal with in a minute, but number 2

6 "in relation to the giving of names for the digging of trenches to Mr.

7 Ramiz Delalic, this is the first time I hear something like that and while

8 I was working in the office of the chief, Mr. Sefer Halilovic, I did not

9 know about such information. Therefore, I state that I had never had any

10 contacts in relation to this matter with Mr. Ramiz Delalic, nor could I

11 have given any kind of lists for the taking of people to dig trenches.

12 The relation with Mr. Ramiz Delalic was strictly professional and while he

13 was the commander of the brigade he had visited the office only on a few

14 occasions just as other commanders."

15 Now, what's put in that paragraph that I've just read out to you

16 that's the real truth, isn't it, Mr. Delalic?

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear whether the witness

18 said yes or no.


20 Q. The interpreter didn't hear you. Could you repeat your answer,

21 please?

22 A. No, no.

23 Q. And once again, I suggest to you that you are simply here to smear

24 Sefer Halilovic as much as you can. Do you agree with that?

25 A. Well, everybody in Sarajevo knew about the relationship between

Page 22

1 Sefer Halilovic and Ms. Dika. He was really in love with her. He spent

2 most of the time in the office and so did she at the premises where

3 Mr. Sefer Halilovic stayed. Many people know that Mrs. Dika practically

4 had a habit of ordering the military police and other organs to take

5 certain individuals to dig trenches. This is not something that I have

6 made up. All you need to do is ask around in Sarajevo and you will see

7 whether I'm right or not. I would also like to point out that there are

8 receipts for the money which I received or which I took. So you can also

9 check that.

10 Q. I'll come to the money in just a minute. But the fact is -- I've

11 asked you that question already. Dealing with the money, the truth is

12 that you were sometimes given money by the Chief of Staff in an official

13 way with receipts given to buy weapons, is that true?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And that Sefer Halilovic had the power to give out such money

16 because at the time he was in charge -- he was the number one person in

17 the army and that was within his competence; is that correct?

18 A. It's possible.

19 Q. See, there has been a lot of evidence in this Court about how the

20 troops were armed. It's the fact that you had to go sometimes and procure

21 weapons from sources because Sarajevo was under an arms embargo; is that

22 correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did the Prosecutor show you any of those covert SDB sort of

25 documents containing gossip and various claims that you were racketing

Page 23

1 business owners in Sarajevo?

2 A. I am familiar with that document. On the 26th of October 1993, I

3 was arrested, I spent seven and a half months in detention, and I was not

4 charged or convicted for any of those cases. I am saying that all of

5 that, all of those things are just fabrications, that all of those things

6 were fabricated and they are not true.

7 Q. It's nice to know we agree about something, Mr. Delalic because

8 I'm putting that to you specifically that you used the money -- first of

9 all you gathered the money generally on a voluntary basis and in a

10 perfectly proper way, not for your own gain but to arm your soldiers; is

11 that correct?

12 A. Firstly, I wasn't the one who was collecting the money. The order

13 to collect the money was issued by the commander of the 9th Motorised

14 Brigade, Imsirevic and the order was implemented by Jukic, Izet, and there

15 are receipts given to the persons who voluntarily came to the brigade and

16 gave the money. I don't know what they stated but this action was carried

17 out by the 9th Motorised Brigade and not by Ramiz Delalic, as you're

18 saying.

19 Q. Well, don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that you went around

20 and collected the money. What I'm putting to you is this: That generally

21 speaking any suggestion that you were racketing in weapons at that time is

22 an absolute load of nonsense, isn't it? You were just trying to arm your

23 troops.

24 A. As I said, there was an arms embargo. It's true that I was trying

25 in any -- every possible way, just as all the other brigades were trying,

Page 24

1 to get in touch with some commanders who, amongst the Serbs, Chetnik

2 commanders or amongst the Croats, with whom we could find some kind of

3 connection in order to purchase weapons.

4 Q. All right. Very well, thank you. Now I want to move to your

5 departure out to Hrasnica. It's the fact, isn't it, that when you went

6 out to Hrasnica, according to you -- I've already asked you some questions

7 about Mr. Karavelic but I've got another one. Is it your claim that

8 Karavelic murdered or had a hand in the murder of Caco, or not?

9 A. I really don't know that but you can check that. You can ask him.

10 Q. I'm asking you. Have you made that claim in the past, that he was

11 involved in the murder?

12 A. No, no, I don't recall ever stating anything like that.

13 Q. All right. Well, now, let's move to Hrasnica and your departure.

14 Before we get to Hrasnica, let's just go to the lineup. On the 7th of

15 September the troops why lined up outside your base and they were

16 addressed by Vahid Karavelic; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And these troops were the 50 or so that departed were selected

19 from about 100, perhaps a little bit more than 100 who were originally

20 lined up; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And the individual people who were there lined up were effectively

23 chosen at the battalion level, and certainly lower than the level at which

24 you operated; is that correct?

25 A. Chosen at the level of the company, a company numbers about 50

Page 25

1 men, and that is not at my level of command.

2 Q. No, that's right. So you did not participate in the individual

3 person-by-person selection of the troops; is that correct?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And furthermore, although you were present with Mr. Karavelic, you

6 didn't personally know all of the people who set off; is that correct?

7 A. I did not know personally quite a number of people.

8 Q. And in fact, you had at that time almost 5.000 individuals in the

9 brigade; is that right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. But despite various attacks that have been made on the 9th Brigade

12 by various sources over time, the truth is most of your soldiers were good

13 people, correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you've indicated already that it was a multi-ethnic unit; is

16 that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And is it the fact that in the days before the war, both you and

19 others that you knew regarded and were proud of the multi-ethnic nature of

20 Sarajevo and the ability of the people who lived there to get on well

21 together and cooperate properly together; is that correct?

22 A. That's correct.

23 Q. And you don't hate Croats yourself in any way, do you?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Nor did you tolerate bigoted behaviour within your unit; is that

Page 26

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And I think you indicated you had almost a hundred -- I understand

4 you weren't giving a precise figure, but you had about a hundred people of

5 Serbian background in your unit who fought alongside the Bosniaks and

6 Croats and other people there; is that correct?

7 A. Roughly, yes.

8 Q. I understand the numbers may not be perfect but -- and it would

9 happen that troops under your command would be killed by shells fired from

10 the Serbian positions, on a reasonably frequent basis; is that correct?

11 A. I didn't understand your question.

12 Q. Well, it's a question leading to something else and it's a pretty

13 basic one. You had people in your brigade killed by Serbs on the other

14 side; is that correct?

15 A. Naturally, at the defence line of Sarajevo, people were shelled

16 and killed, yes.

17 Q. And in fact, to go a little bit further than that, it wasn't just

18 the defence line was it? It was within the city itself that civilians

19 were hit; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. But despite deaths at the hands of the Republika Srpska artillery

22 or snipers or soldiers, you managed to preserve within your unit a

23 tolerance and friendship between the Bosniak, Croat and Serbian soldiers

24 who were loyal to the Bosnian government; is that true?

25 A. To the extent that it was possible, yes.

Page 27

1 Q. And even among the troops who went down to Herzegovina, was there

2 a soldier there - you may remember his name you may not - but a Serbian

3 soldier named Predrag Galic, among those who departed? He was nicknamed

4 Pedja.

5 A. I don't remember but it's possible that that was the case, yes.

6 Q. All right. Well, I understand what you say about all of that.

7 And as those soldiers were selected, you saw no need, because there was no

8 need, to point out to Karavelic, don't take those guys, they are bad guys;

9 is that correct?

10 A. I didn't say to anyone don't pick this one, don't pick that one.

11 Q. And you saw no need to do any such thing; is that right?

12 A. No.

13 Q. And of course, if you had have noticed any of them to be drunk or

14 affected by narcotic drugs, well, you would have told that to Karavelic

15 and said don't take that bloke; is that correct?

16 A. When the unit was lined up, nobody was drunk or under the

17 influence of drugs.

18 Q. And I think you indicated -- well, doesn't matter what you

19 indicated. I'll ask the question straight out. Is it the fact that you

20 did everything you could to minimise drunken or drug-affected behaviour in

21 your brigade?

22 A. Well, I banned alcohol and narcotics.

23 Q. And even though, of course, soldiers would sometimes drink alcohol

24 when they had the opportunity, you didn't have the position that these

25 soldiers going down to Herzegovina were a bunch of drunkards, did you?

Page 28

1 A. I don't understand the question.

2 Q. Well, of the soldiers selected by Mr. Karavelic, you didn't see

3 any people in there who you thought, "That man has an alcohol problem."

4 Is it correct?

5 A. Look, most of the soldiers in Sarajevo, when they got their hands

6 on alcohol, would definitely use it. You know very well what went on in

7 Sarajevo. You know that Sarajevo was surrounded for more than a year, was

8 under complete siege, so that in 90 per cent of the cases, soldiers not

9 only from the 9th Motorised Brigade but any other brigade, if they got

10 their hands on any alcohol would use it. So that's nothing new.

11 Q. I understand and I suppose my point really is this: Your soldiers

12 were just normal -- could I just ask you this. Were the soldiers

13 generally speaking relatively young men in their 20s?

14 A. Not early 20s. There were older men there as well, 30 and up.

15 Q. But anyway, as compared to other soldiers, you saw no signs that

16 the men sent to Herzegovina were more likely to drink alcohol than anyone

17 else; is that correct?

18 A. I didn't watch them getting drunk or using drugs. I wasn't

19 interested in that at all. That was within the purview of the security

20 service which was in charge of that. I didn't have to monitor every

21 single soldier, every single soldier has a platoon commander, company

22 commander, so there were some other people who were supposed to watch

23 their behaviour.

24 Q. All right. After Sefer Halilovic left for -- for Herzegovina,

25 when did you next see him?

Page 29

1 A. From the time -- or rather when I arrived at the -- Zuka's base,

2 that was the first time I saw him down there.

3 Q. All right. So is it the fact that Sefer Halilovic left on the 1st

4 of September, before you got the order in your hand from Vahid Karavelic?

5 A. I don't know that, truly. However, he had already been down there

6 before the units departed and he was down there in order to carry out

7 preparations and to do everything else that was needed before the

8 offensive was launched.

9 Q. All right. Well, just to clinch this question, between the time

10 when you spoke to him -- sorry, between the time when you got the order

11 from Karavelic to go, and I mean the first order on the 3rd of September,

12 and the time you reached Zuka's base, did you see Sefer Halilovic in that

13 time?

14 A. From what date?

15 Q. From the date, the 3rd of September, when you were supposed to --

16 when the order said first you were supposed to leave.

17 A. After that, I saw him once or twice.

18 Q. Did you see him in Sarajevo?

19 A. I don't remember. I don't. However, I think that at around that

20 time, on the 3rd, on the 4th, I saw him but I really don't remember. We

21 had constant contact, Mr. Sefer Halilovic, Mr. Karavelic, and I, all the

22 way up until the 3rd or the 4th. We were in almost daily contact

23 regarding the departure of the units from Sarajevo so I saw him within

24 that period of time but not later.

25 Q. Well, did you see him out at Hrasnica on the day you went through

Page 30

1 the tunnel, on the day you went to Bradina, you didn't see him that day?

2 A. No, no.

3 Q. Look, can I put to you - this - that on the night of the 7th of

4 September, at around about 7.00, you went to Sefer Halilovic's office in

5 Sarajevo and spoke to Sefer Halilovic there. This is -- this is just a

6 few hours before you went through the tunnel. Do you agree with that or

7 not?

8 A. Can you repeat the date, please?

9 Q. Yes, the 7th of September, the night of the 7th of September, the

10 night of the 7th of September, the night that you went through the tunnel

11 to Hrasnica. Did you see Sefer Halilovic at his office or not?

12 A. Definitely not.

13 Q. Did you meet Sefko Hodzic in the corridor outside his office and

14 tell Sefko that you were going with the troops down to Jablanica? Or,

15 sorry, I take that back, down to Herzegovina?

16 A. Who is Sefko Halilovic?

17 Q. We might have had a problem in the translation there. We are

18 talking about Sefko Hodzic, the journalist. Did you meet Sefko Hodzic in

19 the corridor of Sefer Halilovic's office and tell Sefko that you were

20 going down to Herzegovina with the troops?

21 A. Sefko Hodzic was known as Sefer's Friday boy and he's a journalist

22 who reported on his behalf. I definitely didn't see him or meet him at

23 his office.

24 Q. Well, we got a problem there because he says on page 63 of the

25 23rd of March, Your Honours, he says, on the 7th of September, "I went

Page 31

1 back to the Chief of Staff," this is at line 16, "Mr. Halilovic, at 7 in

2 the evening and I met Celo in the corridor and I said, 'So you're going as

3 well, Celo?' And he said 'yes.' And that's when I found out that those

4 units were going." So you say nothing -- that that didn't happen, is that

5 your position?

6 A. No, definitely not. None of that happened.

7 Q. Okay. Well, and of course -- well, I mean I've put that to you

8 quite positively there. Is it your position that Sefko Hodzic is a liar?

9 A. I've already told you quite clearly what my opinion about Sefko

10 Hodzic was. He was the first independent journalist or rather the first

11 journalist who heard the story told by the boys. However, he did not

12 publish anything in the media. So it is quite clear what my opinion of

13 him is.

14 Q. I see. All right. Well let's go through the tunnel now to

15 Hrasnica. Didn't you go through the tunnel to Hrasnica and meet there

16 with Sefer Halilovic, on the other side of the tunnel, in Hrasnica?

17 A. I'm not aware of that, and I am sure that that didn't happen, that

18 I didn't meet him there in Hrasnica.

19 Q. And wasn't it the case when you met him there, and Your Honours

20 I'm referring now to page -- the transcript here at page 64 of the

21 transcript of the 23rd of March 2005. Isn't it the fact that when you got

22 there, you discovered that Sefer was having a lot of trouble to persuade

23 Musan Topalovic, Caco, to go down to Herzegovina?

24 A. On the 23rd of March?

25 Q. No, no, no, no. Sorry.

Page 32

1 A. You said the 23rd of March.

2 Q. Yes, well it was because I was explaining something to the Judge.

3 I've got to put the date of the transcript to him, so you're entitled to

4 have that clarified. I'm putting to you on the night that we are talking

5 about the 7th of the 9th of 1993 that you went through the tunnel, you met

6 Sefer, and you were there told that Caco was not cooperating to go down to

7 Herzegovina. Is that true or false?

8 A. I'm not aware of that.

9 Q. And that you, furthermore, were asked by Sefer if you could come

10 and help persuade Caco to go, is that true or false?

11 A. I'm not aware of that.

12 Q. And when Sefer asked you to go and help persuade Caco, you said,

13 I'm quoting at line 17, no, no, no, you don't know, Sefer, you don't know

14 Caco. If one of his men dies, I'm going to be blamed for it and I'm going

15 to have problems. Did you say that to Sefer?

16 A. I don't know about that. Never heard of it.

17 Q. Yes. Look, can I just put this to you? The truth is you did go

18 down to Herzegovina with your men, all the way to Jablanica. Isn't that

19 true?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And this story of Konjic is just an attempt by you to move

22 yourself away from the events at Grabovica. Is that true?

23 A. It wouldn't be a problem even if I were in Jablanica. Had I been

24 there I would have stated so openly because that would not -- that would

25 not have incriminated me in any way, had I been in Jablanica, that would

Page 33

1 not have been a problem.

2 Q. Well, we'll leave that to the Judges to decide but what I'm

3 putting to you now is that in any event that is the fact, you did go down

4 with the troops to Jablanica. Now, is that true or is it false?

5 A. No.

6 Q. You did in fact, you said that you went out to -- to assist -- you

7 went out through the tunnel on Karavelic's order to assist with

8 transportation matters. Is that true?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Well, what did you do to resolve the transport problems?

11 A. You see, Mr. Fikret Prevljak, if I'm not mistaken, who was a

12 commander in Hrasnica was supposed to secure transportation for the

13 soldiers. You probably flow yourself that the trucks could not have gone

14 through the tunnel. So he was supposed to secure transportation for the

15 troops and there was a problem with that because the trucks were not

16 there. They were quite late. And then there were also problems -- there

17 was also a problem with the food for the army. So the troops were angry.

18 They wanted to go back through the tunnel and refused to depart to

19 Jablanica. This is where the problems arose.

20 Q. Yes, yes. But what did you do about the trucks? Did you procure

21 the trucks? Just hang on. Wait for the question to finish, please. Did

22 you procure the trucks or were the trucks procured by Fikret Prevljak?

23 A. Mr. Fikret Prevljak. And some other people who were tasked with

24 that. My job was to prevent the troops from going back to Sarajevo and to

25 assist in order to speed up that process.

Page 34

1 Q. The truth is those trucks were procured by the president of the

2 War Presidency at Jablanica, a man called Dr. Safet Cibo, isn't that

3 right?

4 A. I have no idea.

5 Q. And the truth is you were -- I'll withdraw that.

6 In any event, it's the fact, isn't it, that you, as deputy

7 commander of the 9th Brigade, nevertheless didn't go back through the

8 tunnel but you set off with the troops, correct?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. And when you got to the checkpoint at Hadzici, it was you, not

11 Senad Pecar, not Malco Rovcanin, and not any other person who took the

12 lead in settling the dispute with the local police. Is that true?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you meet Senad Pecar at Hrasnica?

15 A. Yes. I saw him. I did not approach him.

16 Q. Now, your account is that when you -- when the troops got to --

17 down to Konjic or in the direction of Konjic, that was where you parted

18 company with them; is that correct?

19 A. Somewhere in Bradina we parted company.

20 Q. And you say you then went on to Konjic. What's the name of the

21 person at whose house you stayed in Konjic?

22 A. Almir Habibija.

23 Q. All right. Now, did you in the past give this person's name to

24 the office of public -- sorry, the OTP in an interview as Almir Habibovic?

25 A. I truly don't know why would I say that Habibovic or Habibi. But

Page 35

1 it is possible.

2 Q. What is his real name, is it Habibija or is it Habibovic?

3 A. Almir Habibija.

4 Q. Do you know a person called Almir Dzonkic?

5 A. The nickname of Habibija is Dzonko but not Dzonkic. So the

6 nickname is Dzonko.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Could we please go to private session now.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 36

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 [Open session]


12 Q. Any way according to you the rest of your men then went along the

13 mountain road down to Jablanica; is that correct?

14 A. I think so, but let me reiterate that a lot of time has passed

15 since, but I think that they took the detour road from Bradina. They took

16 the macadam road because the other road from Konjic to Jablanica was cut

17 off so they had to take the detour road. At any rate, they rested in

18 Bradina and then I continued on my own to Konjic.

19 Q. And in what vehicle were you when you went on your own to Konjic?

20 A. I don't know. I can't remember.

21 Q. Was it a truck or a car?

22 A. A car. A jeep or something like that.

23 Q. All right. And at that time, were you with Malco Rovcanin? You

24 just said you were on your own. Were you with Malco Rovcanin rather than

25 being on your own?

Page 37

1 A. Somebody was with me. I don't know if it was Rovcanin, Malco,

2 Fikret. More likely Rovcanin, Malco but I'm not sure. I don't remember.

3 Q. Who did you say was in charge of the 9th Brigade troops who went

4 on the mountain road to Jablanica after you departed from them?

5 A. I truly can't remember who it was. There were several persons

6 that I have in mind but I can remember who exactly was the commander of

7 that unit. It could have been a personal called Pilica. I'm not sure of

8 his first name or last name. And then there was also somebody from the

9 reconnaissance company. But I truly don't remember who the commander was.

10 Q. In reality, wasn't it Malco Rovcanin?

11 A. It's possible, but I don't believe that he could have been the

12 commander of that unit.

13 Q. Yes. All right. So any way there is one person whose name you

14 can't remember who you were with when you got to Konjic. Did that person

15 come with you to Mr. Habibija or Habibovic's house?

16 A. I can't remember. But he definitely didn't sleep with me.

17 Q. Well, where did he sleep? Was he at Mr. Habibija's house or not?

18 A. I don't remember, but he certainly wasn't going to sleep with me

19 and the girl.

20 Q. No. But you see you're making a claim that you were somewhere

21 else and I'm asking you about who you were with and who can verify this --

22 this account of yours. So the question remains -- well you say you can't

23 remember where this person slept. Can I ask you did they come to

24 Habibija's house at all or Habibovic's house at all?

25 A. You should ask Mr. Malco whether he went or not. I'm sure that he

Page 38

1 will tell you. You could also ask Habibija, Almir and his wife. They are

2 definitely going to tell you that. It's for you to verify all these

3 things. That's your job. I'm telling you things and you can verify them.

4 Q. Well, at the moment, I'm going to ask you the questions about what

5 you say and later on we'll have a look at the Malco situation. Any way,

6 what you say is that you went to this house. Did you procure any weapons

7 there?

8 A. Not a house, it's an apartment.

9 Q. Anyway, did you procure any weapons there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. What did you procure there?

12 A. I truly don't remember, but on several occasions, we went to

13 Mr. Almir Habibija to collect weapons gathered by him down there in that

14 area, but I don't remember what we took on that occasion. I know that we

15 took some weaponry but I don't recall exactly what.

16 Q. Did you have communications equipment with you in Konjic?

17 A. I don't believe so. I don't know but I don't believe so.

18 Q. Was Adnan Solakovic with you in Konjic?

19 A. I cannot remember.

20 Q. Well, look, you were with one person -- one other person you've

21 indicated to us and I want to know who that was, Mr. Delalic. You know

22 who Adnan Solakovic is, commander of the 2nd Independent Battalion,

23 correct?

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. Okay. And what I'm asking you now is was Adnan Solakovic,

Page 39

1 commander of the 2nd Independent Battalion, with you in Konjic? Yes or

2 no?

3 A. I really do not remember. I don't know. It's possible that he

4 was there but I really don't know. I cannot be certain of it, no.

5 Q. All right. And who were you with on the way down to -- sorry, I'm

6 just noticing --

7 JUDGE LIU: If you're finished with Konjic, we will have a break,

8 yes. We'll take a break and we'll resume at 11.00.

9 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

10 [Witness stands down]

11 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

12 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour. Sorry, just before the

13 witness comes in, there are a couple of management matters that I just

14 wanted to raise. The first one concerns some things that are going to

15 happen in Prosecution -- in cross-examination now and I just thought I

16 better raise them with the Court before we start. The first is that, as

17 you have seen, I've been confronting the witness with certain statements

18 of other witnesses and we now come to Jablanica. And here I need to

19 confront him with the statements of some of his own 9th Brigade people,

20 including witness D, and perhaps if we could go -- I think we need to go

21 into private session even for this explanation.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go to private session, please.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 40











11 Page 40 redacted. Private session.















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Page 43

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 MR. MORRISSEY: So that's -- that's coming. And the final matter

11 simply concerns the 1996 statement to which this witness has referred. We

12 are obviously very concerned to get the tape that he's referred to, if

13 it's true, and I just ask you what the progress about that is at this

14 stage, if I could.

15 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

16 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, we have been discussing this matter with

17 counsel. Prosecution has made inquiries or, let's say, are in the process

18 of making inquiries. I've been trying to get hold of the old

19 investigators, if indeed it's true that there was such a statement. I

20 have managed to get hold of one investigator who was working on this case.

21 Your Honour, by way of explanation this is before the Nikolai time so

22 there were two other investigators who have been working and who did

23 occasion to see Mr. Delalic. I have got hold of one of them and I've

24 actually telephoned him or rather my assistant has telephoned him and

25 he -- his answer to us is he does not recall whether a statement was

Page 44

1 taken. There is another investigator whose telephone number I've just

2 obtained this morning because it's difficult to track him down and I will

3 be also making inquiries from him during the next break, Your Honour. I

4 will try and call him and see if I can get hold of him.

5 So we do not have a 96 statement in house. That's the bottom

6 line. And I'm trying to inquire from them if one was indeed taken, and

7 this is because counsel have asked and perhaps further clarification from

8 this witness in cross-examination will reveal what was the nature of this

9 and who he gave it to, although he doesn't recall the name but it could

10 only have been one of these two investigators. So we are trying our

11 hardest, Your Honour, in respect to this 96 but there is nothing that our

12 searches have thrown up. And yesterday we did run more searches in

13 respect of many issues just to make quite sure that we go over with a

14 fine-tooth comb. So we have with all due diligence tried as hard as we

15 can to come up with the information and these are matters beyond our

16 control, Your Honour, because these are people who have since left the

17 Tribunal.

18 JUDGE LIU: Thank you very much. I think I believe Mr. Morrissey

19 is competent to get more information about that interview from this

20 witness.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, can I just indicate that we

22 certainly accept that Ms. Chana personally is doing all that she can

23 reasonably do at this stage and we are grateful for that. I have to say

24 we might make a comment about the Prosecution as an institution at a later

25 time but we are very convinced of the good faith of the inquiries that are

Page 45

1 happening right now. We want that to be put on record at his stage. Your

2 Honours, those are the only matters I want to raise right now.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes. By the way, can you finish this witness

4 tomorrow?

5 MR. MORRISSEY: I hope so and I'm trying to. It depends.

6 Yesterday he was answering very shortly. Today there has been a change

7 but I suspect that the answer is yes and it's realistic to plan on the

8 basis yes and that's what we are aiming for, but I can indicate that we'll

9 comfortably go into tomorrow and it really depends how he answers some

10 questions here. However, we should plan on the basis that we'll finish

11 him tomorrow.

12 JUDGE LIU: Thank you. How about the next witness on Monday? Do

13 you have any proofing notes or whether he was arrived in The Hague or how

14 soon you could provide those information to Defence and the Chamber?

15 MS. CHANA: Your Honour the next witness has been taken by David

16 Re. He's not due here in The Hague until Saturday afternoon so Mr. Re

17 will be proofing him on Sunday and hopefully the proofing notes will be

18 provided by Sunday evening.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, the next week we are sitting in the morning and

20 the time is really too short for that. I hope that at least one day

21 before his testimony, he should arrive in The Hague. Yes.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, there are some genuine problems

23 about that. There are some witnesses we can jump quickly which we did

24 with the pathologist and so on. This witness is one who, depending on

25 what he says, might be quite a lengthy witness and might take some

Page 46

1 document -- there might be some document warfare that occurs with him and

2 he's a witness who provided a very -- it's a six page statement, I think

3 in substance. It's about confined issues, I have to say. I notice that

4 with the withdrawal of Mr. Mujezinovic, it may well be that the

5 Prosecution aren't persisting with a particular line they are taking and

6 it might -- and it depends because the statement itself is brief, so I

7 need to know in a sense what line the Prosecution are taking with Mr. --

8 with that witness and depending upon that, things might proceed sensibly.

9 But I have to point out that at the moment the Prosecution are alleging

10 that they have to call an expert. Your Honours haven't ruled upon that as

11 yet. But it seems to me not feasible to deal with the expert at short

12 notice and also that witness at short notice. We think it's -- not

13 feasible to deal with the expert at short notice at all in any event but

14 we are being put in a position now where Mr. Halilovic won't be properly

15 -- won't have justice done in effect by me. I'll be unprepared because

16 these witnesses are both certainly the expert and possibly the other

17 witness are at the moment unknown quantities to some degree. So that does

18 pose a problem us. We don't want to delay things. It's not in anyone's

19 interest to delay, and I'm -- we can all think about sensible alternatives

20 but I don't like the option of getting the proofing notes the evening of

21 the day before that particular witness arrives. I can say that now.

22 JUDGE LIU: Well, thank you very much. We will take into account

23 your submissions.

24 Well, could we have the witness, please?

25 [The witness entered court]

Page 47

1 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey, please continue.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Delalic. Mr. Delalic were you

4 interviewed by the Prosecutors in November of last year, whilst you were

5 in prison?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And was that interview among the people present at that interview,

8 was the learned Prosecutor, Ms. Chana, present?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And was it -- was that interview taped on a tape recorder, as far

11 as you could see?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Excuse me a moment. Okay. Now, on that occasion, at tape number

14 3107/1, side A, at page 33 of 53, you say this: "So basically we arrived

15 in Konjic in very, very early morning hours and I stopped by and took some

16 rest for several hours maybe." Did you say that?

17 A. Approximately, yes. I think so. I don't know.

18 Q. Did you then say, "So I slept in the apartment of this Almir

19 Habibovic"?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And why was it that you gave his name as Habibovic at that time?

22 A. That was perhaps a mistake because the majority of the names of

23 our names end in an "ic," but I think this is really a mistake. Perhaps I

24 made a mistake but his name is actually Almir Habibija.

25 Q. Okay. Now, Your Honours could we please go into the private

Page 48

1 session?

2 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

3 [Private session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 49

1 (redacted)

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3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 [Open session]


21 Q. I just want to put -- I just want to put some evidence to you.

22 I'm going to put some evidence to you now that's been given in this Court.

23 This is on the 17th of February, page 40, Your Honours. I mention 17th of

24 February, Witness, because that's when the evidence was given here, but we

25 are not asking about that date. We are asking about the time when these

Page 50

1 troops went down to Jablanica and Grabovica. All right. I'm going to put

2 questions and answers from the witness:

3 Question: "When you got to Zuka's base, did you see Celo, Ramiz

4 Delalic? Did he get out of the truck buses?"

5 Answer: "Yes."

6 Question: "And what did he do?"

7 Answer: "He went inside. I don't know who he talked to but he

8 was looking for accommodation for us because the first thing for anyone to

9 secure was food and accommodation, and he was taking care of his men."

10 Now, Mr. Delalic, that evidence that I've just read out to you,

11 that's the truth, isn't it?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Let me go on further. And now I'm recommencing where we stopped

14 at line 16:

15 Question: "Did he inform you as the men of the results of his

16 inquiries of accommodation?"

17 Answer: "We were only told later that we were going to

18 Grabovica."

19 Question: "When you say later, do you mean before you set off for

20 Grabovica?"

21 Answer: "Yes. After that conversation he had, when he came back,

22 when Celo came back, we were told that we were going to Grabovica."

23 Now, Mr. Delalic, once again, the evidence that you've just heard

24 read out to you, that's true, isn't it?

25 A. No.

Page 51

1 Q. All right. We'll move to another person.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, this is evidence given on the 22nd

3 of February at page 60 of the transcript. No, no. No, just excuse me a

4 moment, please. Sorry, Your Honour.

5 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, while Mr. Morrissey is looking for his

6 papers, I'm not sure whether the witness is aware as to what's being put

7 to him. I think because we already talked about it before, we all are

8 very aware, perhaps it would be good to make the witness aware that this

9 is evidence which has been given in this court by witnesses, the

10 protection, so he understands, because I -- he may be aware. Perhaps I'm

11 confused but I think it would be a good idea to let him know exactly

12 what's going on.

13 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, with respect to the first witness, the

15 evidence that I read out, I decline to say who that was and I submit it

16 shouldn't be done. With respect to the next one, I'm prepared to do so

17 and that would be a question of moving into the private session in the way

18 that Your Honour mentioned at an earlier stage, although I must say I have

19 some legal concerns about it. That's really a matter for the bench to

20 decide. But in respect of this witness perhaps I could ask that we move

21 into the private session.

22 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 52











11 Page 52 redacted. Private session.















Page 53











11 Page 53 redacted. Private session.















Page 54

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 MR. MORRISSEY: Thanks.

8 Q. All right. Now I'm going to put some evidence from the first

9 witness that I meant -- I didn't mention their name but the first witness

10 that I put something to you from. And this, now, Your Honours, is at

11 18th of February 2005, at page 24 of the transcript.

12 Sorry, just excuse me one second, please.

13 [Defence counsel confer]

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Sorry, just excuse me, sorry, we are just going to

15 reorganise that.

16 I'm sorry, Your Honours, I'll come to that passage. I found that

17 we are halfway through it. It's unfair to the witness to put that halfway

18 bit so we'll find the start of it.

19 Q. All right, I'm going to put another witness to you now. This is a

20 witness from the 16th of February 2005, at page 31. And this witness was

21 questioned in the following way at page -- at line 17:

22 Question: "Very well. Upon arrival at Jablanica, your commander,

23 Ramiz Delalic, was still present with the unit for at least some type of

24 your stop at Jablanica; is that correct?"

25 Answer: "In Donja Jablanica. He stayed in Donja Jablanica, in

Page 55

1 Zuka's base, as far as I know."

2 Question: "Yes. Well, you're correct to correct me." It was in

3 fact -- "well, it's the fact that your unit arrived with Ramiz Delalic at

4 Donja Jablanica and stopped there for a period of time. Is that correct?"

5 Answer: "15, 20 minutes approximately."

6 Now, the evidence I've just put to you there, that's true, isn't

7 it?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Okay. Sorry, just excuse me a moment, please, and I'll return

10 with another piece of transcript. Okay.

11 All right. Now, I'm going to put another piece of evidence and

12 this one I think the name can be given without any difficulty.

13 Your Honours, this was on the 15th of February 2005, at page 5. This is

14 evidence given by Erdin Arnautovic in this Court. I should ask you this

15 question about Erdin Arnautovic. When you were in prison on the last

16 occasion, Erdin Arnautovic used to come and visit you; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And he's a friend of yours; is that correct?

19 A. [No interpretation]

20 Q. Now, he says something different:

21 Question: All right, in fact in fairness to you I'm going to put

22 this:

23 Question: "I now take you to Jablanica itself." Your Honour that

24 starts on page 4. "I now take you to Jablanica itself. And I put to you

25 that when you arrived in Jablanica, Ramiz Delalic also arrived there; is

Page 56

1 that correct?"

2 Answer: "No. He remained in Konjic."

3 Question: "All right. Is it your evidence that he did not go to

4 Jablanica on that morning of the 8th of September? Is that your

5 position?"

6 Answer: "He went as far as Konjic and then he remained in Konjic

7 with Malco Rovcanin and Fikret Kajevic and then he arrived later

8 on."

9 Question: "Yes. Well, in the statement that you made on the 3rd

10 of December 1998 to the cantonal court in Sarajevo," and this is at page

11 2, Your Honours, that's a quote from the text, I interpose, "did you say

12 this," and this is about ten lines from the top. Quote. Mr. Delalic the

13 passage I'm about to read out now is a quote from a statement of

14 Mr. Arnautovic on a previous occasion. Quote: "I was going into the

15 village of Grabovica but Rovcanin, Malco, Delalic, Ramiz, and Kajevic,

16 Fikret, remained at Jablanica because of additional agreeing with officers

17 of other units that were to take part in the action." End of quote.

18 Question by me: "Now, did you say that to the cantonal court back

19 in 1998?"

20 Answer: "I do not recognise the cantonal court because the police

21 and judiciary are all corrupt, they are all saying and writing false

22 things. I do not accept any statements made before those courts."

23 Now, my question to you is this: Were you aware that or do you

24 know, that Erdin Arnautovic had made a statement to the cantonal court in

25 1998 when he said you went to Jablanica but stayed there with Malco and

Page 57

1 Fikret Kajevic for additional agreeing with other commanders? Did you

2 know that he made such a statement?

3 A. I've no idea.

4 Q. Do you know why it is that having made that statement in 1998, he

5 then changed it in this Court to say or changed his position in this Court

6 to say that you stopped in Konjic?

7 MS. CHANA: Your Honours, this is not something this witness

8 can --

9 MR. MORRISSEY: It's okay. Your Honour, it may be correct what my

10 friend says, technically. I want to give the witness to opportunity to

11 comment but if my friend objects, frankly, I -- she's right.

12 Q. All right. Sorry, just excuse me once more. Very well. At page

13 93 on the 17th of February, a witness was being cross-examined and the

14 question was this at line 20:

15 Question: "I'd like to ask you now a few questions about your

16 accommodation as you arrived in the village of Grabovica. You've

17 indicated that Ramiz Delalic, Celo, told the soldiers to go and

18 accommodate themselves in two empty houses; is that right?"

19 Sorry, that's a wrong quote. "Is that so?"

20 Answer: "Yes."

21 Question: "Are you able to point at those two houses in a

22 picture?"

23 And then the witness indicated certain houses which I won't

24 trouble you with now.

25 Now, that evidence that you've just heard read out, that's true,

Page 58

1 isn't it?

2 A. Was the question directed to me?

3 Q. Yes, it was, Mr. Delalic. The evidence you've just heard me

4 read --

5 A. I wasn't sure any more because you are putting questions left and

6 right so I wasn't sure whether it applied to me. Could you put it again,

7 please?

8 Q. Of course. Of course I can. The passage I'm reading now

9 commences at line 20.

10 Question. I'll just explain so that there is no doubt about it.

11 I'm going to read you questions and answers and then I'll ask you a

12 question.

13 Question: "I'd like to ask you now a few questions about your

14 accommodation as you arrived in the village of Grabovica. You've

15 indicated that Ramiz Delalic, Celo, told the soldiers to go and

16 accommodate themselves in two empty houses, is that so?"

17 Answer: "Yes."

18 Question: "Are you able to point to those two houses if shown a

19 picture?"

20 Answer: "I should hope so. I just hope it's going to be a larger

21 photograph because on one side of the road there was a small hill." Then

22 other questions were asked.

23 Now, Mr. Delalic, however I've stopped quoting now and now I'm

24 asking you a direct question. That evidence I've just read out to you,

25 that's true, isn't it?

Page 59

1 A. First of all, I was a senior officer of the BH army and it wasn't

2 possible for me to travel with the troops on a bus. I travelled in a car.

3 So it's not true that I travelled with the troops on a bus.

4 As for the other allegations, it isn't true. I had even no idea

5 where Grabovica was and where the soldiers would be billeted. So that's

6 not true what you said about me showing some houses and so on.

7 Q. But Mr. Delalic, even apart from all of this, you have admitted

8 this in the past you were shown Grabovica through binoculars by Zulfikar

9 Alispahic on an earlier occasion, haven't you?

10 A. Zulfikar didn't show it to me. Nihad Bojadzic did but on that

11 occasion, he didn't tell me the name. He just said that there was a

12 village and that the line had been moved, but he didn't tell me what the

13 village was called. I don't know.

14 Q. All right. Well, let's go on now. I'm going to put some more

15 from there witness. This is at the 18th of February, page 24. At line 7,

16 question -- sorry, line 2.

17 "Good morning. I'd like to take you back" -- and this is the

18 question. "I'd like to take you back to where I left you last night. You

19 were telling the Trial Chamber about your arrival in Grabovica and Ramiz

20 Delalic, Celo, asking the troops to go and accommodate themselves into

21 empty houses. Do you remember that?"

22 Answer: "Yes."

23 Question: "Having given that order, Celo then promptly left

24 Grabovica, isn't that the case, sir?"

25 Answer: "Yes."

Page 60

1 Question: "And only after Celo had left did someone from the 9th

2 Brigade look for alternative accommodation, isn't that so?"

3 Answer: "Yes."

4 Now, I've finished reading that evidence out, Mr. Delalic, and

5 that part of the evidence that I just read out to you, that's true, isn't

6 it?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Because the real truth about this is you did go to Jablanica, you

9 did go to Grabovica, and only after you'd been to Grabovica with your

10 troops, in the morning of the 9th -- sorry, the morning of the -- let me

11 start that question again.

12 You did go to Jablanica in the morning of the 8th of September and

13 you did go to Grabovica shortly after that, and only after they started to

14 take up position in houses did you leave Grabovica and go somewhere else.

15 Is that true or is it false?

16 A. Well, first of all I'd like to say that all of these attempts of

17 yours to attribute something to me is something that you have already

18 tried to do that through you, through your assistants and through the

19 gentleman sitting next to you, you even tried some bribery for me to say

20 that I didn't see Sefer here, that I didn't do this. I even have the

21 tapes recorded during interviews with your lawyers. You offered money and

22 so on. And this will be subject of an investigation perhaps by this very

23 Prosecution. Here you're trying to expand on some things and to turn them

24 into extreme allegations. My reply to that is no. This is not true.

25 Q. Where are those tapes?

Page 61

1 A. I met the investigator in Sarajevo and I told them that I had a

2 tape and I could take it with me. I asked should I? I was told no, no

3 need for that. If there will be any need we will let you know. So I

4 didn't take the tape with me. I have a tape recorded during the interview

5 with one of your lawyers and some other lawyers who tried to convince me

6 in various ways to change my statement. This was done by several lawyers

7 who offered me money and so on.

8 The Court, if they wish me to bring the tape, I will bring it.

9 One tape was made during the interview with attorney Azem Mehonjic, who is

10 an attorney in Sarajevo. I have that interview recorded. We sat in a

11 cafe where music played and it was a bit loud. However, I believe that

12 this institution has technical means necessary in order to play this

13 properly, and if there is any need, I will send the tape in.

14 As for your assistant sitting next to you, he came to see me while

15 I was at the central prison, towards the end of my sentence there. He

16 also suggested to me not to mention Sefer. He said that the Court and the

17 Prosecutor operate in such a way that they would first indict Sefer and

18 then after that they will indict others including myself and that

19 therefore I should not say any of the things that could compromise Sefer.

20 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic is your position this? You will smear anyone who

21 has the possibility to hurt you?

22 A. That's your problem.

23 Q. You'll smear Halilovic, Karavelic, Hodzic, the lawyers, anyone who

24 hurts you, correct? Yes or no?

25 A. No, no.

Page 62

1 Q. Whereas in reality, you yourself, despite fighting bravely in the

2 war, are in effect nowadays an underworld figure and a habitual criminal.

3 Is that true?

4 A. That's your opinion.

5 Q. I don't have opinions. I'm putting questions to you. Have you

6 recently claimed in the press in Sarajevo that there is a contract out

7 upon you put there by the Albanian Mafia?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And while on release on bail for the murder charge that you're

10 facing, did you become involved in a fight with an Albanian, a senior

11 Albanian criminal and find yourself locked up overnight in the police

12 cells?

13 A. I don't know what you're talking about.

14 Q. Well, since you were released from prison on bail for the murder

15 charge, weren't you in a fight with a man called Keljmendi, Naser?

16 A. As I would like to clarify this question before the Trial Chamber,

17 I think we need to go into private session because this is the subject of

18 an investigation currently.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes. Well that's an appropriate thing to ask for.

20 I ask that we go into private session, please.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go into private session, please.

22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 63











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1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]


8 Q. Well, there is one matter that I want to ask you. You mentioned

9 that there were -- you were a witness in a case -- well, I'll restructure

10 now the question. Never mind what you mentioned. Let me ask you the

11 question just in the abstract. Were you in a witness in a case involving

12 murder, supposedly committed by the director of the AID?

13 A. I do not wish to answer the question.

14 Q. All right. Can we move into the private session, if that's the

15 case?

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We will go back to the private session, please.

17 [Private session]

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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Page 68

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

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5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

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8 (redacted)

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16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]


23 Q. Very well, Mr. Delalic. Now, concerning -- just excuse me a

24 moment.

25 I want to put some propositions to you here about what happened

Page 69

1 at -- excuse me one second.

2 Moving to another topic now, Your Honours. I don't know if this

3 is a good time to take a break or not, but the next topic will be a

4 sizeable one. For my own purposes I prefer not to break it up so --

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, we could take a break now and we will resume at

6 25 minutes to 1, 30-minutes break.

7 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 12.35 p.m.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Mr. Morrissey.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you, Your Honour. Sorry, I can't hear.

11 Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Delalic. Could I just ask now that the

13 witness be shown D222? That's the official note filed by a man named

14 Salihamidzic, Ahmed, which was tendered into evidence here some time ago.

15 Mr. Delalic we are now going back to Grabovica and what's going to be on

16 the screen in front of you now is a document headed "official note." Do

17 you have that in front of you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Okay. This is an official note that we are told was compiled on

20 or about the 12th of September 1993 and it's in evidence and I'm going to

21 put some allegations from it to you. Now, would you please look to the

22 second paragraph -- sorry, look to a sentence that begins, with the

23 sentence "at around 1500 hours on the same day I went with the military

24 police Commander Sead Kurt to Grabovica."

25 Could you just tell me when you find that sentence?

Page 70

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Delalic, it's the fact, isn't it, that the

3 police -- that Salihamidzic and the man named Kurt came to Grabovica at

4 around 1500 hours or a little bit after that in a marked police car on the

5 9th of September, true or false?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. And I put it to you further that you saw them arrive in a marked

8 police car near to Adnan Solakovic's base in the village. True or false?

9 A. I really have no idea.

10 Q. Didn't see that police car?

11 A. No, no.

12 Q. All right. Let's proceed. "We interviewed" -- look at the start

13 of the next -- sorry, no, we'll go on from there. I apologise. I'm going

14 to take you through it solidly here. Okay. You see it says here, "we

15 arrived" -- "when we arrived at the building of the former Grabovica

16 railway station, we were stopped by an armed soldier at an improvised

17 checkpoint." Now, I want to ask you this: There was, in fact, an

18 improvised checkpoint right outside Adnan Solakovic's house, his base, in

19 the afternoon of the 9th of September, true or false?

20 A. Yes. There was a guard post there.

21 Q. Yes. And it was manned by a Croatian soldier, wasn't it? An army

22 of Bosnia and Herzegovina soldier but one of Croatian background,

23 correct?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. A very terrified and scared soldier, I put to you. Is that

Page 71

1 correct?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Very well, let's go on with this report. The report says "we had

4 to show our identity cards. We were allowed through. To a flat where

5 Ivan Pranjic and his wife Stoja lived." Now, did you ever meet Ivan

6 Pranjic and his wife Stoja?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Okay. Now, just move down, he then says "we met two other

9 persons, two unknown civilians. In speaking to them we established that

10 one of them was the commander of an independent battalion." Then there's

11 a bit of handwriting saying Solakovic but you can disregard that, although

12 I'll ask you a question about it. "And the other was a displaced person

13 from Stolac named Zulfo." Now, the first question is: Did you meet Zulfo

14 yourself?

15 A. That name is not familiar to me. Perhaps I did meet him but I

16 really don't know this name.

17 Q. In the middle of the afternoon of the -- of September the 9th,

18 Adnan Solakovic was in that village, wasn't he, at his command house?

19 A. I don't know where he was at the time.

20 Q. Okay. Well, let's go further. "We interviewed these persons and

21 we learned that at the aforesaid time, soldiers from the unit commanded by

22 Ramiz Delalic, also known as Celo, who were billeted 100 metres downstream

23 killed the following persons in Malidja Kirce [phoen]," which I think is

24 translated the "Maric houses." And then some names are given. First of

25 all, is it the fact that those troops were from a unit commanded by you or

Page 72

1 not?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Let's move further. You see a sentence the bodies of the women,

4 Luca, Mare, and Ruzica, had reportedly been seen in a fallow field by

5 Marinko Maric's house while Marinko Maric's body was reportedly in a

6 ravine between the house where we conducted the interview and Crno Vrelo,

7 about 300 metres upstream.

8 Now, did you see those bodies of those women in the fallow field?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Text goes on: During the interview, intermittent shots could be

11 heard coming from the direction of Marica Kurce [phoen]. When you were in

12 the village, did you hear intermittent shots being fired?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Keep going: We were advised by -- perhaps I should ask a question

15 here. Somebody may have interposed the word Solakovic or "Sokalovic" in

16 there, as you see. There was no Sokolovic who was the commander of the

17 2nd Independent Battalion but the commander was Adnan Solakovic; is that

18 correct?

19 A. I don't know anything about it.

20 Q. No, no. But you do know, don't you, that the 2nd Independent

21 Battalion was commanded by a man called Adnan Solakovic, correct?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. All right. Well, let's proceed. "We were" -- I'm reading now

24 from the passage, "We were advised by Commander Sokolovic," it says, "that

25 it was not possible to protect the lives of Ivan Pranjic and his wife

Page 73

1 Stoja without the use of weapons. And it was recommended that we should

2 try to organise an evacuation of Croatian inhabitants from this part of

3 Grabovica. Because of this and for personal security reasons we did not

4 go to that part of the suburb where Celo's units were billeted which was

5 about 100 metres downstream."

6 Did you yourself know that there were two old Croatian civilians

7 hiding in the house of Adnan Solakovic in the middle of the afternoon on

8 the 9th?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Were you in the village at the time when the police came to visit

11 the Adnan Solakovic house and saw these two old people there?

12 A. At the time when I saw them, and I stayed there very briefly, I

13 didn't see the police car or anything like that. I doubt that they even

14 came. I didn't really see anything when I was there.

15 Q. Sorry, pardon me. Just excuse me. Sorry about that.

16 Very well. Well, let's proceed then. "When we left we spoke with

17 the soldier who was at the guard post and who had checked our identity

18 cards earlier, and he told us that the troops next to them were killing

19 people and he feared for his own life because he was not a Muslim." I

20 want to ask you again: Did you meet that guard, did you meet a guard,

21 outside Adnan Solakovic's base in the middle of the afternoon of the 9th

22 of September?

23 A. I know that Adnan Solakovic had members of the Croat ethnic group,

24 but I don't think that I actually met him personally.

25 Q. Did you see a terrified individual guarding the Solakovic house

Page 74

1 when you were present?

2 A. I don't know whether I spent any time in front of Adnan

3 Solakovic's house, and if I did, I don't recall seeing a terrified guard

4 or anybody like that.

5 Q. Let's press on. This police officer goes on to say, "On our

6 return we stopped at Crno Vrelo and in an attempt to find the body of

7 Marinko Maric we searched a wide area below the road. I went down to the

8 Neretva River and searched the terrain there but found nothing. While I

9 was in the Neretva canyon, Sead Kurt stayed by the car in the road and

10 Celo came along in a car and asked him whether we found anything. He then

11 added 'You're looking for them yet look at what they are doing with our

12 people.'"

13 Now that lass passage I've just read out to you about you coming

14 along in a car and saying those things, that's true, isn't it?

15 A. No, no, no way.

16 Q. Because what happened was that you saw the police down at Adnan

17 Solakovic and you drove up to see what they were doing, correct or wrong?

18 A. I did not see a police car that day at all, not even in passing,

19 and not at all at the house where Adnan Solakovic was staying.

20 Q. And what about on the iron bridge as you go out of Grabovica back

21 towards Jablanica? Did you see a car there?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you speak to a member of the local military police and say the

24 things that I've read out to you from this report?

25 A. I really don't know where you got that from, but it's definitely

Page 75

1 not sure that I saw any police car or police officers. I arrived with

2 Zulfikar Alispago that day and I saw what I saw. I said that and it's

3 quite certain that I did not see a police car or any police officers and I

4 really don't know anything about it.

5 Q. And furthermore, is it your evidence that the first time you went

6 to the village, you went in a jeep with Zuka, Zulfikar Alispago? And I

7 mean on the day, the 9th of September.

8 A. I think that I came with him in his jeep.

9 Q. Yes. And it's your evidence that you arrived with him and you

10 left with him, correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And according to you, you came back later by yourself after you

13 heard news about the finding of the two boys; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And according to you, you didn't see Zuka in the village after

16 that one visit that he paid with you in the mid-afternoon on that day.

17 Mr. Delalic, that question was a mess. I apologise for it. I'll

18 put it another way.

19 After you went with Zuka to the village in the middle of the

20 afternoon, as far as you know, Zuka didn't go back to the village that

21 day. True or false?

22 A. I am not aware of that.

23 Q. Well, he didn't go back to the village, according to you, when you

24 were there, correct?

25 A. I don't think so, no.

Page 76

1 Q. No. Okay. And after you had come back from the village with the

2 two boys, you say he was part of this discussion where removing or hiding

3 the dirty laundry was discussed; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And after that discussion was finished, you yourself went back to

6 stay in Grabovica; is that correct? I mean later on in the night of the

7 9th.

8 A. No.

9 Q. Where do you say you stayed that night, the night of the 9th?

10 A. I think that I spent that night at the apartment of Zulfikar

11 Alispago.

12 Q. All right. Now I've got more of this report to put to you. Could

13 you look down -- Mr. Delalic you're going to have to indicate when you

14 need the page to be turned over, okay? But on the English, it's on the

15 third page, and I think it will be on the second page of the Bosnian

16 version. So if the witness could be shown the second page of the Bosnian

17 version, please? Do you have in front of you now a page that includes the

18 words -- just find the passage that begins this way: At 1830 hours on the

19 10th of September 1993, Zulfikar Alispago of the Zulfikar unit and Edid

20 Sarovic [phoen], the commander of the Igman Wolves unit, came to the

21 public security station. Do you have that?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right. Now, they are now talking here or this man,

24 Mr. Salihamidzic is talking that he was visited by Zuka and by Adib Saric

25 and gave certain news and now I'm going to put that news to you. They

Page 77

1 came to the public security station and informed the SJB chief and me that

2 during the terrain inspection, six bodies had been found on the right bank

3 and two bodies on the left bank. Now, that's true, isn't it, Mr. Delalic?

4 Six bodies were found on the right bank and two on the left bank, correct?

5 A. It's possible but I don't know anything about that.

6 Q. Didn't you see these six bodies on the right bank?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Did you see the two bodies on the left bank?

9 A. On the right bank, on the approach to Grabovica, before the

10 village, as soon as you cross the railroad bridge, about 50 or a hundred

11 metres after that, Zuka noticed, as I said, some traces as if somebody had

12 been pulling a bloody corpse, and this was in the middle of the street.

13 And we followed this trail and together we found a part of a body out of

14 the water and another part of the body in the water. So it was the body

15 was partially immersed in water and it's possible that there were also two

16 bodies.

17 Q. Where was the second body on that occasion?

18 A. At that place, it seemed as if there was one body or two bodies

19 there and I said that right at the beginning. I wasn't sure if there was

20 one body there or two bodies. We didn't go down to the water's edge. We

21 were on the road and this was some seven or eight metres lower down.

22 There were some bushes there so it wasn't possible to see for sure whether

23 it was one body or two bodies.

24 Q. Was it possible to see whether they had any -- whether body or

25 bodies had wounds on them, injuries?

Page 78

1 A. No.

2 Q. So you certainly wouldn't have been in a position to say that

3 these bodies had entry and exit gun wounds, correct?

4 A. No, no. I didn't see any wounds. I saw blood. There was a lot

5 of blood on the asphalt.

6 Q. Yes. Well, just to clarify that, as I have to, did you see blood

7 on the bodies as well or not? The body or bodies?

8 A. I really couldn't say. The body was partially immersed in water

9 and a part of it was out of the water. And like I said there was a lot of

10 blood on the asphalt.

11 Q. All right. I understand that. Apart from that body or bodies,

12 you didn't see any other bodies in Grabovica at all. Is that accurate?

13 A. No, no.

14 Q. Okay. And all right. Let's keep going with what's said here.

15 Among the bodies found on the right bank was the body of a three year old

16 child. Did you see the body of a three year old child?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Look at the next part. 14 adults and the children were evacuated

19 alive from the right bank and taken away. Now, it's your position, isn't

20 it, that indeed two children were evacuated alive from the right bank and

21 taken away, correct?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... it was courtesy of you that

24 those two were taken away, correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 79

1 Q. But you've also made a claim, haven't you, that at a discussion

2 between Halilovic, Zuka and a variety of other wrongdoers, the plan was

3 made to hide the dirty laundry. In fact, you say that plan was made and

4 discussed on the late afternoon of the 9th of September, at Zuka's base,

5 when you brought the children, correct or wrong?

6 A. Yes, yes.

7 Q. Okay. But what you have here on this page is Zulfikar Alispago

8 and Edib Saric of the Igman Wolves coming and telling the police about

9 those two children, correct?

10 A. I don't know.

11 Q. Mr. Delalic, you made up and invented this story about Zuka and

12 Halilovic saying -- to hide the dirty laundry, didn't you?

13 A. I didn't make up anything.

14 Q. In fact, you know, as a matter of absolute truth, don't you, that

15 Zuka's unit or a representative of Zuka's unit, in fact took a statement

16 from those two boys, correct?

17 A. As far as I know, Nihad Bojadzic took a statement from the two

18 boys.

19 Q. Yes. And indeed, you yourself at a subsequent time went and got a

20 copy of that statement from Nihad Bojadzic, didn't you?

21 A. I didn't do it until much, much later. I got it five to six years

22 later.

23 Q. That was at a time when you were helping Mr. Nikolai Mikhailov in

24 the investigation, correct?

25 A. I don't know whether it was then.

Page 80

1 Q. And you provided it to Nikolai Mikhailov, didn't you, this

2 statement?

3 A. I had that statement in my possession, and as I believed that that

4 statement ought to reach The Hague investigators, I turned it over

5 together with all other documents.

6 Q. Yes. Well, that's the fact. Could I just ask you to have a look

7 at a photocopy of a document and see if you can identify it as that. And

8 while I do I'm just going to explain some things to the Judges but if

9 you -- you can listen to that, but also just inspect this document.

10 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, lest it seem that this is another

11 attempt to claim that the Prosecutors haven't given a statement, the fact

12 is they have. This is on the material disclosed to us long ago. It's on

13 the CD. It's a joint statement of Goran and Zoran Zadro. Sorry,

14 Your Honours, I think the Prosecutors are indicating they don't have it.

15 I didn't bring copies because it was -- it's a document that was actually

16 disclosed by them to us. I'm happy to provide --

17 JUDGE LIU: Could we put it in the ELMO?

18 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honours, what I had in

19 mind was just to -- could I just indicate -- could I deal with that in one

20 second before we go to the ELMO? Just a minute.

21 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

22 MR. MORRISSEY: First of all, I don't know if you can remember at

23 this length of time, Mr. Delalic, but is that the document you were given?

24 A. I can't read this but it is possible.

25 Q. Very well. Perhaps the best approach would be this. Could I

Page 81

1 leave that with you? It's probably a bit unfair to do it in Court now.

2 Could I just leave that printoff with you and you have a look later on

3 when we finish today and I'll ask you some more questions about it

4 tomorrow?

5 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, could I just indicate this is a

6 document I hadn't uploaded because it's a statement provided by the

7 Prosecutors. But we will do that overnight. We'll have it uploaded

8 because it's a statement we have not been dealing with it.

9 JUDGE LIU: Yes, of course. If not I believe that you have to

10 prepare the hard copy --


12 JUDGE LIU: -- to the other party.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours, we will do that and could I just

14 indicate I had the intention of tendering this document even though it's a

15 statement, not as to the truth or otherwise of its contents but just

16 because it's -- if this witness -- if the witness when he's had a fair

17 chance to look at it decides to say that "Yes, that the document I got,"

18 then I would tender it just as a part of what happened.

19 JUDGE LIU: Well, we'll make that decision or deal with this issue

20 when we have a chance to read that document. Maybe tomorrow.

21 MR. MORRISSEY: Yes, Your Honour. Could I just give the

22 Prosecutors the ERN number so that it's --

23 JUDGE LIU: Yes of course.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: It's -- it's ETRR 271787-RR 271788. That's the

25 English, and it would be -- there would be markings on what's been given

Page 82

1 to the witness but anyway it will be -- once they have that they should be

2 able to find. Sorry.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, Ms. Chana?

4 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, while we have a solution for this

5 particular document, but I would still like to put it on record that even

6 when a document is being used by the Defence, which we have disclosed, I

7 think the Defence should provide us with a hard copy in Court because our

8 case manager is a magician but she cannot just conjure up from the

9 thousands of documents that we have disclosed to the -- I mean, there are

10 so many documents in the EDS suite we cannot simply come up and produce

11 the document immediately for our reference and I think counsel has been

12 made aware of this situation. Your Honour did rule that they don't have

13 to give us the documents in advance. I think it's sheer courtesy that

14 they provide us with a hard copy and not say, Well, you gave it to us.

15 JUDGE LIU: I believe that Mr. Morrissey has already promised us

16 that we will have it uploaded or otherwise furnish the hard copy to us.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours could I just indicate this -- it

18 wasn't on the EDS, the monster, it's on the material that was disclosed to

19 us as witness statements, which is a confined thing. However, I've got an

20 English copy. I'll give that to the Prosecutor right now so there need be

21 no difficulty. That's the only one I have frankly at the moment but --

22 anyway it will come.

23 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Delalic, that's procedural warfare that goes on and

24 I apologise for delaying the questions with you. But having looked at

25 that document there, does it -- are you able to say from your memory now

Page 83

1 whether that is the document or would you just like some more time to

2 think about it later on and tell us tomorrow?

3 A. That would be fine, yes. You can give me the document and that

4 would be fine.

5 Q. All right. Good. Okay. Anyway, to come back to the fact it is

6 the fact, isn't it, that Bojadzic or at least some person from the -- from

7 the Zulfikar unit took a statement from those boys, yes or no?

8 A. He took the statement from the boys.

9 Q. Okay.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note could the witness repeat the

11 previous answer? It is possible that he meant something else and that we

12 misunderstood.


14 Q. The interpreters just asked to you repeat again what you just

15 said.

16 THE INTERPRETER: About the documents being given to the witness.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nihad Bojadzic took the statement,

18 at least that's what I heard, and I received the paper from Nihad Bojadzic

19 at which time he told me that he had taken the statement from the boys.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Thank you for that answer. The interpreter was

21 concerned about your answer to a previous question which was whether you

22 were prepared to take that document and have a look at it. I had heard

23 it, but the interpreter didn't. So would mind just saying -- are you

24 prepared to take document and look at it or not?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am looking document right now.

Page 84

1 Q. That's okay. You're prepared to take it away and have a look at

2 it later on and see if you can remember whether that's the one Bojadzic

3 gave you?

4 A. Well, there is no need because I can't read it anyway. I can't

5 read anything here.

6 Q. Well, Your Honours, I offer that document for tender now in any

7 event. There is another way of demonstrating it which we'll come to later

8 on and since it's arisen now I offer it. I don't require the Prosecutor

9 to respond now because we'll do it at the end after I've explained to her

10 what else we have. I can do that out of court?

11 JUDGE LIU: Of course because we are in the very difficult

12 position to judge the contents of this document.

13 MR. MORRISSEY: Of course. And I should explain more to the

14 Prosecutor so we will do that after court today.

15 Q. All right I my apologise again. Let's proceed with this document

16 here. Do you see that I -- I'm -- I've now returned to the report that's

17 on -- thank you. Mr. Delalic, I'm now returning to the police report

18 that's on the screen. But you can keep a copy of that Zulfikar document

19 with you if you wish.

20 Okay. Now this goes on to say, "we were informed that the body of

21 a soldier whose throat was cut was found in the reservoir of the

22 Salakovac" -- "Solakovac," sorry, "hydroelectric power station close to

23 Sjencina. He was a soldier from the Zulfikar unit named Ivica and he was

24 a Croat. He had come across some soldiers from Celo's unit who stopped

25 him and demanded to see his identity card. After establishing that he was

Page 85

1 a Croat, they cut his throat and threw him into the Neretva River."

2 Now, Mr. Delalic, that allegation about that soldier being killed

3 by members of the 9th Brigade, that's true, isn't it?

4 A. I would like to go into private session, if possible, before I

5 answer this.

6 MR. MORRISSEY: In the circumstances, Your Honour, I don't oppose

7 it, if it has to be.

8 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we'll go to the private session, please.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

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Page 86

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Page 87

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12 Q. Yes. Well, Mr. Delalic, where did this supposed order take place?

13 And at what time?

14 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, since we are pursuing this subject I

15 would like to remind Mr. Morrissey that -- to advise the witness we are in

16 open session now. If he'd like to go back to closed to complete this

17 subject.

18 JUDGE LIU: Well, we will have that paragraph redacted.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours.

20 JUDGE LIU: Because he just repeated his words. And later on,

21 we'll see there is any necessity to lift the confidentiality of that piece

22 of evidence.

23 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honour, I make it quite clear that I'll

24 make a submission about that because it --

25 JUDGE LIU: I quite understand that.

Page 88

1 MR. MORRISSEY: All right. Well perhaps we go back into the

2 private session, Your Honour.

3 JUDGE LIU: Yes, we will go back to the private session, please.

4 [Private session]

5 (redacted)

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Page 89

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]


4 Q. Thank you. Now let's press on with this. Anyway at all events,

5 one thing you'd have to consider is this, that whatever account Zulfikar

6 Alispago is giving, he's not hiding that fact in the least, is he, that

7 killing? Do you agree with that?

8 A. What's your question?

9 Q. I'll put it another way. Look at another part of the text. "The

10 above indicates that the killings were perpetrated by members of the unit

11 commanded by Ramiz Delalic, also known as Celo." Do you see that passage

12 there?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Delalic, the fact is that at this point, and I'm talking

15 now about the point referred to in the report, that is to say the 10th

16 of -- of September, you knew that your men were potentially in big

17 trouble, true or false?

18 A. No.

19 Q. And you also knew that as to the killings at Grabovica, those

20 killings were widely known in Jablanica because of the escape of and

21 evacuation of numerous Croatian civilians to Jablanica. Is that true?

22 A. I don't know whether it is true or not, but the crime probably

23 became known.

24 Q. That's not my question. You knew that the crime had become known,

25 didn't you?

Page 90

1 A. Well, I suppose I did know, especially since there were people who

2 managed to flee the village.

3 Q. And not just the Croats who got away, but also Bosniak refugees

4 who moved up and down the road from Grabovica to Jablanica, correct?

5 A. In the village where the Croats were, there were no refugees. The

6 refugees were on the other side, in the makeshift housing.

7 Q. But even so, well, all right. I understand what you say. But so

8 that's the fact, isn't it, that you knew that the news was out about the

9 killings but you knew also that the individual perpetrators had yet to be

10 identified, correct?

11 A. Will you put a question to me so that I can understand it?

12 Q. Yes, I'm putting to you the proposition, you knew on the 10th of

13 September that the perpetrators, individual killers, had yet to be

14 identified; is that correct?

15 A. I spoke about the fact that the order was supposed to be issued to

16 identify, find and arrest the perpetrators.

17 Q. All right. Well, let's keep going with this document. It says

18 here that "At 2030 hours on the 10th of September 1993, I was informed by

19 Sead Brankovic, a Mostar SDB employee that strange things were again

20 happening in the Grabovica area. Together with the IKM security officer

21 Namik, we called the Zulfikar unit commander and he asked us to visit him.

22 Adib Saric was also in Zulfikar Alispago's flat. We were informed that

23 members of the unit commanded by Celo were again causing trouble in

24 Grabovica. A girl named Jasna who was a displaced person and who was

25 responsible for cleaning the hutted encampment at Grabovica was raped and

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1 two other girls fled and hid with the soldiers guarding the Grabovica

2 hydroelectric dam." Now, is that true, Mr. Delalic that units under

3 your -- that members of the unit commanded by Celo were again causing

4 trouble in Grabovica? Is that true?

5 A. I really know nothing about this.

6 Q. Let's go further. "During the interview, Ramiz Delalic also known

7 as Celo came to the flat with his deputy and launched a scathing attack on

8 all Jablanica inhabitants who were allegedly kicking up a fuss over a few

9 dead Croats." Now, that's true, isn't it, Mr. Delalic?

10 A. No.

11 Q. Let's go further. "He said he was going back to Sarajevo with his

12 men and asked Zulfikar to provide him with cars. If he did not get them,

13 he and his men would set off for Sarajevo on foot." Now, Mr. Delalic,

14 it's true that you said that, isn't it?

15 A. No.

16 Q. "In response to" -- I'm going further now. "In response to

17 Zulfikar's attempts to calm him down and draw his attention to the

18 importance of the operation, Celo said Bakir and the MUP can do that with

19 the Laste. They just strut around and don't do anything and they are

20 useless soldiers."

21 Now, that's true, isn't it?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You better let me finish the question because it could have two

24 meanings. I don't remember whether the Laste were really bad soldiers.

25 What I mean is it's true that Zulfikar attempted to calm you down and that

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1 you said Bakir and -- you said those words about Bakir; is that correct?

2 A. No.

3 Q. And that he then said "when Vehbija Karic was asked what they

4 should do if Croats were to cause a fuss while they were billeted in their

5 houses, he had replied, 'Kill them and chuck them into the lake.'" Did

6 you say that to those men assembled in Zuka's flat?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Some of his men had taken this literally and this had happened as

9 a result. Did you say that to the assembled men in the flat?

10 A. No.

11 JUDGE LIU: Well, Mr. Morrissey, I believe that you have to

12 establish whether there is a meeting in the Zuka's flat first or not to

13 this witness.

14 MR. MORRISSEY: Well, Your Honours, can I just indicate that after

15 one more question I'm going to ask that point.

16 JUDGE LIU: Yes.

17 MR. MORRISSEY: I'm just putting the facts to him as facts first

18 and then afterwards we'll see what his position is.

19 Q. Finally, he and his -- finally, the last thing that's here, "He

20 and his deputy then stormed out of the flat." Now, is that true?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did you in fact go to Zuka's flat on that evening of the 10th of

23 September at a time when Zuka, Saric, Salihamidzic, Jankovic, and another

24 man called Brankovic were present?

25 A. I think that that evening I went to Zuka's. None of the other

Page 93

1 persons were present, and Zuka was very drunk, and he had an outburst. We

2 stayed very briefly in the apartment, then he went, spoke with somebody on

3 the phone. I'm sure that there is a record of that in the MUP. He went

4 to the emergency service where he beat somebody up really badly. But as

5 for the meeting that you're mentioning, let me tell you there was no

6 meeting and I don't know anything about that.

7 Q. Excuse me one moment, please. Attached to this document there is

8 another one and I would ask that we go to the next document. The next

9 document, it's page 3, I think, page 3 in Bosnian, it will be page 4 in

10 the English version. There is another report attached to that report

11 which has been -- which is in evidence in this trial, Mr. Delalic, and now

12 I have to take you to that and that will take us through to the end of

13 today's proceedings. Do you have in front of you a document dated the

14 13th of September 1993 and beginning with the words, "Croats used to live

15 in the village of Grabovica"?

16 A. Yes, I have the document in front of me.

17 Q. All right. A number of lines down, probably 15 or 20 you might

18 find a sentence beginning this way, "The local Jablanica authorities and

19 the commander of the special purposes unit Zulfikar Alispago" -- I'll just

20 ask you to find that part and we will go on from there. Do you have that

21 passage?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Very well. Well, you see it says here: "The local Jablanica

24 authorities and the commander of the special purposes unit, Zulfikar

25 Alispago, also known as Zuka, agreed to evacuate the Croatian population.

Page 94

1 18 persons were evacuated." Now that's true, isn't it, Mr. Delalic, that

2 Zuka assisted the police and evacuated 18 persons?

3 A. I have no idea.

4 Q. Just look a couple of lines down. No, I should read you the whole

5 sentence I'm sorry. "When the deputy chief of the Jablanica police

6 station and leader of the Jablanica military police company arrived at the

7 spot where Marinko Maric's body was supposed to be, Ramiz Delalic, also

8 known as Celo, approached them and asked, have you found anything? While

9 you are busy searching for them, look what they are doing to us.

10 That's true, isn't it?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Let's proceed further. And I think you may need to turn over the

13 page now. It's page 5 of the English version and it's, I think, page 4 of

14 yours.

15 MS. CHANA: Your Honour, I think the full sentence should be read

16 out where it says, "probably referring to the detainees from the Dretelj

17 camp," for the sake of completeness Your Honours since everything is now

18 being reflected on the record.

19 MR. MORRISSEY: I don't have any difficulty if -- it's relevance,

20 so I will read that out further.

21 JUDGE LIU: That could be read out but this is the guess from the

22 other person and the witness denied he made these kind of remarks. So I

23 wonder whether it's meaningless or not.

24 MR. MORRISSEY: I won't do it, Your Honour. I won't do it. If

25 the Prosecutor wants to put it in re-examination, that's --

Page 95

1 JUDGE LIU: You may proceed.

2 MR. MORRISSEY: Okay, Your Honour.

3 Q. On the other page now you see there this section. "On 10th of

4 September 1993, at about 20.30 p.m. ..." -- Do you have that section?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Okay. We'll go on. "... I was in Zulfikar Alispago's flat in the

7 company of the Jablanica director -- deputy police chief and an official

8 of the military security service of the Supreme Command, Namik Dzankovic.

9 While we were in the flat, Ramiz Delalic also known as Celo, came in. He

10 was obviously excited. He was accompanied by his deputy whose name was

11 Malco. He said that he had just executed one of his soldiers and

12 threatened to withdraw his units back to Sarajevo and said that he did not

13 care about Mostar."

14 Now, is that true? Did you say that?

15 A. No.

16 Q. Did Malco say that?

17 A. I have no idea if I was there at all.

18 Q. Did Malco say that in your presence?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Go on with it. "He cursed Minister Bakir Alispahic and his Laste

21 unit and said that the MUP members were masquerading like dummies, that

22 they were no good as fighters and that they should be sent to Mostar."

23 Did you say that on that occasion?

24 A. If I wasn't there, I couldn't have said it.

25 Q. I think that's a very logical thing to say. But it is something

Page 96

1 that you said on other occasions, isn't it, that the Laste were a bunch of

2 dancers or dummies, is that true?

3 A. It's possible that I said that in Sarajevo.

4 Q. Okay. Well, I won't ask you to say it now.

5 But it was a point of argument, wasn't it, between the army and

6 the police sometimes that those of you who had to do the fighting felt

7 some resentment against the police who didn't get their hands dirty; is

8 that correct?

9 A. Yes, that's what the soldiers felt.

10 Q. Okay. It goes on here: "He said that he'd asked Vehbija Karic

11 what he should do. The Croats refused to let them move into their houses.

12 To which Vehbija Karic allegedly responded, 'Kill them, throw them into

13 the lake,' that his men had understood this literally and that as a

14 result, the crime had been committed." Did you tell that to the assembled

15 people in Zuka's flat on that occasion??

16 A. I do know that Vehbija Karic said that but on this particular

17 occasion, I wasn't there, and I don't recall him saying that.

18 Q. There is just a piece of transcript I want to put to you. Just

19 excuse me a moment, please.

20 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honours at, 18th of March, page 20.

21 MS. CHANA: Excuse me. I'm sorry for interrupting you.

22 Your Honour, I've just had our case manager who speaks the language look

23 at the -- the real document and from that what I'm [inaudible] says --

24 this document says he wasn't sure whether it was Malco or the witness who

25 is saying these things in the last part of our -- the context of the

Page 97

1 document, and that's what the -- the original Bosnian, there is a notation

2 in writing as to who is supposed to have said that. So perhaps counsel

3 would like to make it clear, that it wasn't in fact clear whether it was

4 Mr. Delalic or Mr. Malco who actually made these utterances.

5 JUDGE LIU: Well, if you want, Mr. Morrissey, there is a request

6 from Prosecution.

7 MR. MORRISSEY: I think it's -- yes, Your Honour, in that light

8 I'll clear.

9 Q. Mr. Delalic, just to -- so that we can clear that up quickly. As

10 far as you're concerned you didn't say any of those things and Malco

11 didn't say those things in your presence; is that correct?

12 A. I really don't know anything about this document here.

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6 Q. So Mr. Delalic, can I put this to you now? The truth of the

7 matter is that you did cover up the crimes at Grabovica because you knew

8 your soldiers were involved. Is that true?

9 A. Look, I still stand by the fact that this crime was not committed

10 only by soldiers of the 9th Motorised Brigade. I believe that soldiers

11 from other brigades also committed the crime. Even these refugees who

12 were on the other bank. At the time, also, I didn't have any idea exactly

13 who these people were and future investigations will determine exactly who

14 was involved. However, what you are saying is not true.

15 MR. MORRISSEY: Your Honour that's the end of that passage. I

16 think we --

17 JUDGE LIU: Yes. We'll resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.

18 The hearing is adjourned.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.45

20 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, 20 May 2005

21 at 9.00 a.m.