1 Tuesday, 6 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj, et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 I see that the appearances of the parties are, as far as lead
11 counsel are concerned, the same as yesterday. I will not repeat it at
12 every hearing.
13 We have a few matters to deal with before the Chamber invites the
14 Prosecution to call its first witness. I have on my agenda, first of all,
15 that the Defence may respond to two motions we discussed recently. That
16 should be done in private session.
17 There is another matter with which I could start right away, and
18 that is instructions concerning the Rule 92 bis motion of the 19th of
19 February, 2007, Mr. Re. The instructions concern the Rule 92 bis motion
20 of the 19th of February, and the Defence, all Defence teams, have now
21 responded to this motion.
22 Before proceeding to take a decision on the motion, the Trial
23 Chamber wishes to bring to the Prosecution's attention that there are
24 certain discrepancies between the motion and the witness list which was
25 filed last Friday. There are, for example, certain witnesses who,
1 according to the motion, will be called to give some evidence viva voce in
2 addition to the evidence which the Prosecution seeks to introduce under
3 Rule 92 bis. In the witness list, however, no time is allocated for
4 examination-in-chief for these witnesses.
5 Therefore, the Trial Chamber asks the Prosecution to compare the
6 motion of 19 February 2007 with the witness list filed on 2 March 2007,
7 and to file a corrected Rule 92 bis motion, or at least a correction to
8 that motion. The Defence will then be provided with an opportunity to
9 amend their responses to the Rule 92 bis motion, should this be necessary.
10 This concludes the Trial Chamber's instructions relating to the
11 Rule 92 bis motion of the 19th of February, 2007.
12 Another matter which I'd like to clarify, first of all. Mr. Re,
13 the next witness, not a witness to be called today, but the witness next
14 to that, would that be a witness which bears the pseudonym W38? W, of
15 course, stands for witness, witness 38. Would that be correctly
17 MR. RE: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We also understand you'll seek protective measures
19 for that witness. Any idea on when you'll file an application for
20 protective measures?
21 MR. RE: It was being drafted this morning. It should be filed
22 fairly soon, I would hope. I will have a look at the next break.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear.
24 Having clarified this, I would have in mind to give an oral
25 decision on the -- and I think we can do that in open session, on
1 the "Confidential Application on behalf of Ramush Haradinaj to Exclude
2 Testimony pursuant to Rule 89(D)" in respect of the next witness to come.
3 At the same time, I am informed that there are even other submissions to
4 be made in respect to the testimony of that witness. If that would be the
5 case, then we'll first hear that and then see whether we still could
6 deliver the decision we have reached at this moment.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honours, there are no additional oral
8 submissions. I was asked to identify what issues there were to be dealt
9 with this morning -- or this afternoon, before the witness was called.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. EMMERSON: And it was simply in respect of the fact that
12 there's an issue outstanding or a motion outstanding that requires to be
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that, Mr. Emmerson.
15 Mr. Guy-Smith.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, if I might, Your Honours, I don't know if
17 it's necessary, but just to make sure the record is clear. We do join the
18 submission made with regard to the issues raised in this motion.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You mean that's the 89(D) motion filed on
20 behalf of the Defence of Mr. Haradinaj?
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: That is correct, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then -- I'll then deliver the decision. That's
23 an oral decision on the motion of the 5th of March, filed on behalf of
24 Ramush Haradinaj, but now joined by all Defence counsel, or not --
25 MR. HARVEY: By all Defence counsel, thank you, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: By all defence counsel. So all three accused, that's
2 clear now.
3 MR. HARVEY: We will always take care to notify the court, if for
4 any reason we don't join in any motion, but --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. As a matter of fact, I think we'd prefer -- a
6 brief yes would do, but to work on the basis of what has not been said is
7 a little bit risky. So if you'd say, "We join," that will be enough. It
8 will be your words, so for the -- on behalf of your client.
9 MR. HARVEY: Indeed, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The decision is regarding, and now I'll give the
13 title of the motion, the "Confidential Application on behalf of Ramush
14 Haradinaj to Exclude Testimony pursuant to Rule 89(D)," which was filed on
15 the 5th of March, 2007.
16 In its application, the Defence of Mr. Haradinaj seeks to, and I
17 quote, "exclude the testimonies, or portions thereof, of SST7/28 and
18 Marijana Andjelkovic, who are scheduled to be called as the Prosecution's
19 first two witnesses." The Prosecution has not responded to the
21 MR. RE: No, the Prosecution hasn't. We received it yesterday,
22 and I understood there would have been oral argument from the Prosecution,
23 if necessary, rather than a written response.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, as a matter of fact, we discussed -- the
25 position of the Prosecution became clear from the attached correspondence.
1 I think that's when I referred to that yesterday. If that would not be
2 your position, then, of course, I would give you an opportunity and I'll
3 immediately stop delivering the decision. But if your position is
4 reflected properly in the correspondence, then, of course, we have looked
5 at that when considering the motion.
6 MR. RE: That was certainly our preliminary view in relation to
7 the evidence I propose to adduce.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you'd like to add anything, you are free to
9 do so.
10 MR. RE: Only if it would be of assistance to the Trial Chamber in
11 reaching its decision.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, if you want to respond, you may respond.
14 However, if you do not respond and if I would continue to deliver the
15 decision, then it would result in a denial of the motion. So I don't know
16 whether it's still of any use for you to respond.
17 MR. RE: Not in those circumstances.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Then I'll continue to deliver that
20 The last line I read before was that the Prosecution has not
21 responded to the application, and that still is now the case.
22 We have in the meantime been informed that the testimony of
23 witness 28 will be postponed. The Chamber will deal with the part of the
24 Defence application pertaining to witness 28 in due course, and, of
25 course, if there would be any reason for you to further respond in
1 relation to witness 28, you would have an opportunity to do so, Mr. Re.
2 In relation to the evidence to be given by Witness Andjelkovic,
3 the Chamber will deal with this part of the application now, considering
4 that her testimony is imminent.
5 The Defence seeks exclusion of potential allegations which have
6 not yet been and are not being tendered into evidence by any party at this
7 stage of the proceedings. Therefore, the Chamber considers the Defence
8 application premature and therefore rejects it.
9 Nevertheless, the Chamber wishes to notify the parties of some
10 general guidelines to be adhered to when eliciting evidence from
12 As a general rule, opinion evidence should not be elicited from
13 fact witnesses. Inviting the witness to speculate should also be
14 avoided. In cases in which it is not clear what the factual basis is of a
15 witness's testimony, the parties are required to explore the basis of the
16 witness's knowledge in relation to his or her testimony. As to
17 second-degree hearsay evidence, or hearsay that is even more remote than
18 that, such evidence as a rule does not assist the Chamber and the parties
19 are urged to avoid it as much as possible, keeping in mind that
20 transparency in the flow of information is of greatest importance in
21 relation to such evidence.
22 This concludes the Chamber's ruling on this matter.
23 Then we'll turn into private session to give an opportunity to the
24 Defence to respond to the two motions, Madam Registrar.
25 [Private session]
11 Pages 459-461 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Is the Prosecution ready, Mr. Re, to call its first witness, which
20 I understand is a witness for whom no protective measures are needed, and
21 the witness being Marijana Andjelkovic.
22 MR. RE: Your Honour is correct. It's Marijana Andjelkovic, the
23 first witness. No protective measures are required. She's outside the
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Usher, could you please escort the
1 witness into the courtroom.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, madam. I understand that you're
4 Marijana Andjelkovic. Before you give evidence before this Chamber, the
5 Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration
6 that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 The text is now handed down to you by Madam Usher. May I invite you to
8 make that solemn declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 WITNESS: MARIJANA ANDJELKOVIC.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much. Please be seated,
13 Ms. Andjelkovic. You'll first be examined by Mr. Re, who is counsel for
14 the Prosecution. Once he has finished his examination, you, although most
15 likely not today, will be cross-examined then by counsel for the Defence.
16 Mr. Re, please proceed.
17 Examination by Mr. Re:
18 Q. Your name is Marijana Andjelkovic -- I understand you're
19 testifying in English, if we can clarify that.
20 A. Yes. Marijana Andjelkovic.
21 Q. And you're testifying in English?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You were born in 1963?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Where do you work now?
1 A. I currently work at the OSCE Mission to Bosnia and Herzegovina.
2 Q. What do you do there?
3 A. I am the chief editor. I have a title of human rights officer,
4 but I mainly edit and prepare for publishing the reports that are compiled
5 by the human rights department of the mission.
6 Q. Thank you. I just want to get a little bit of background to let
7 the Trial Chamber know who you are and where you're coming from and the
8 experience you had in 1998, in testifying as to the matters relevant to
9 the court.
10 Can you tell the Court what you were doing -- your employment in
11 the 1990s leading up to 1998?
12 A. In the -- I first went to Kosovo in 1994. I was working for about
13 18 months for an NGO called Doctors of the World USA. I was working on
14 a -- it was mainly a TV-controlled programme. Then I was -- I went to
15 England for a while, and then when I came back, I was working for another
16 NGO, another US NGO, International Orthodox Christian Charities. This was
17 mainly on refugee assistance programmes. I was dividing my time between
18 Kosovo and -- and Bosnia.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can you repeat the name of the organisation?
20 THE WITNESS: The International Orthodox Christian Charities.
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. When did you finish working there?
23 A. In early December 1997, and then I started to work for the
24 Humanitarian Law Centre in January 1998.
25 Q. I'll just pause -- ask you to pause there. What is the
1 Humanitarian Law Centre?
2 A. The Humanitarian Law Centre is an NGO that was set up, I think, in
3 1992, and what it was doing in both Bosnia and later on in Kosovo, it was
4 following the conflict and interviewing witnesses or victims of
5 humanitarian law violations, people who had been exposed, civilians
6 predominantly, who have been exposed to violence.
7 Q. And is that an organisation associated with the Natasa Kandic?
8 A. Yes, it is. Natasa is an executive director and a founder of the
10 Q. And does it have any party line? Is it affiliated with any
11 political organisation or political state or political entity?
12 A. No, not to my knowledge, it isn't. It was purely there because it
13 was necessary to --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, something happened with your microphone, so we
15 are not -- it may be that you've touched the button. I'm not quite sure.
16 The button.
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, I'm afraid I pushed, by mistake,
19 the priority button. I apologise. It's always good to first try to find
20 the fault with yourself and only then to look at others.
21 Mr. Re, please proceed.
22 MR. RE:
23 Q. I was asking you a moment ago about the political affiliations, if
24 any, of the Humanitarian Law Centre.
25 A. No, I would say -- I would say not. Natasa Kandic is probably one
1 of the strongest campaigners for human rights and also for the prosecution
2 of war crimes in the former Yugoslavia, I would say.
3 Q. And when you say "prosecution of war crimes in the former
4 Yugoslavia," are you referring to any particular side to any of the
6 A. Not really, not really. The Humanitarian Law Centre was working
7 with all civilians, it didn't have any preferences. Although I have to
8 say, and one may see that from public statements of the organisation, that
9 they would like to focus on Serbia and they do focus on Serbia, but it's
10 because they are registered in Belgrade, and one should clean one's own
11 yard first, I would say.
12 Q. Let's go back to Kosovo in late 1997 and early 1998.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where did the HLC, short for Humanitarian Law Centre, have its
16 A. It had offices in Pristina.
17 Q. And also in Belgrade?
18 A. Also in Belgrade, yes. It is based in Belgrade, but it had a
19 small office in Pristina, sorry.
20 Q. And why did it have an office in Pristina?
21 A. Well, I only started to work in January 1998, but it is my
22 understanding that there has -- there had already been a person working in
23 Pristina, and she was interviewing people who were exposed to police
24 harassment at the time, whether it was -- sometimes it was weapons search;
25 sometimes people would get arrested; and sometimes people were mistreated
1 by police. There were different reasons.
2 Q. When you say "police harassment," are you referring to the Serbian
4 A. Yes, yes, Serbian police.
5 Q. And what was the job that you got with the Humanitarian Law Centre
6 in 1998?
7 A. In 1998, I have been asked to -- to start working on what was then
8 called ethnic minorities issues, but then what happened is that a conflict
9 started in Kosovo, so that took -- took up most of my time. So I went
10 more to Kosovo then -- then I had time to -- to do other things.
11 Q. Now, why did you go to Kosovo?
12 A. In --
13 Q. Just in general terms. I'll get more specific in a moment.
14 A. Yeah. Sometime in February, there were reports in the press that
15 there were attacks on ethnic Serb houses in more remote areas, in more
16 remote villages, in Kosovo. So Natasa thought that it would not be a bad
17 idea to go to Kosovo and try to get in touch with people and see if
18 there -- if there was any truth in that.
19 Q. And in case it's not quite clear for the Chamber, what was the
20 job? Can you describe, as precisely as possible, the job that
21 Natasa Kandic asked you to do.
22 A. Right. I was supposed to get in touch, try to visit these
23 villages that were mentioned in reports, and I was supposed to find these
24 families and talk to them, and see if they'd really been attacked or not,
25 and then take their statement -- "statement" is maybe too strong a word.
1 But just ask them what had happened and what they'd noticed. And then I
2 was supposed to put it in a report, of a form.
3 Q. Did you have a job description?
4 A. I don't really remember. I think there must have been something,
5 because I did have an interview. But it was -- it was a temporary
6 placement, as I saw it.
7 Q. And did you, in fact, go to Kosovo?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. In 1998, how many times, approximately, did you go to Kosovo, and
10 for what -- for what period?
11 A. Throughout 1998?
12 Q. Up until the end of September 1998.
13 A. Gosh, it must have been 18 times. More than a dozen. I would
14 spend -- I would go down there at least once every ten days and spend
15 anything from two or three days to -- to a week.
16 Q. When you went there, did you go alone or with other people?
17 A. I would mostly, because I would go there from Belgrade, I would
18 mostly travel alone, although there were cases when I would travel with
19 some other colleagues. But the first time I went -- the first time I
20 went, I wasn't actually alone.
21 Q. I want to ask you about your methodology, about what you did when
22 you actually went there. You tell -- can you tell the Trial Chamber about
23 the first time you went to Kosovo --
24 A. Mm-hm.
25 Q. -- and what you did and how you did things.
1 A. Right. Well, it was a fairly simple methodology. You have to
2 understand this is a non-governmental organisation. And what we would do
3 is we would talk to people who were either victims or witnesses of things
4 that happened, and we would talk to them, we would write that down and
5 then put it in a form. And then HLC had lawyers as well, and they would
6 look through it and see whether there were any violations and what
7 violations that would be. And then we'd -- also, they'd give us guidance
8 as to what to look for --
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. -- specifically.
11 Q. When you say you would write it down, are you referring to a
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did you keep -- did you keep notes or take notes --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- of your interviews with the people you spoke to?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When you took the notes, what did you do with the contents of your
19 notebook afterwards?
20 A. Right. Well, I've collected a few of these very cheap but
21 practical noteblocks, and I can't recall exactly now. I know who I gave
22 them to, but I can't remember when. It may have been before the bombing.
23 Of this, I'm not quite sure. But I gave them to a colleague that I worked
24 with in the Kosovo Verification Mission, who was an OSCE. She was my
25 immediate supervisor when I was with the Kosovo Verification Mission.
1 Q. Maybe I'm not framing my questions clear enough.
2 A. Sorry.
3 Q. What I'm actually directing you to is, after you had recorded your
4 observations or conversations --
5 A. Right.
6 Q. -- in a notebook, what did you do then? What was the process or
7 methodology of the HLC?
8 A. Right, sorry. What I would then do is I would type them in a
9 computer, in a document. There was a form that we had with certain
10 details, and then we would type that in. We would type every incident
11 into one of these forms and file it. And I would do that either in
12 Pristina, in the office, or I would go -- whenever I was in Belgrade, I
13 would collect quite a few of these incidents and then type them all at one
15 Q. Yes. Tell the Trial Chamber about the form. What was actually on
16 the form?
17 A. The form was fairly simple. It had, you know, the name of the
18 victim, the name of the witness or the person that we talked to. It had
19 the date of the incident, it had the location, and it had this one section
20 that was violations. But this was actually not really filled by us,
21 unless it was obvious; for example, if somebody went missing so that would
22 be obvious. Everything else was done by the -- with the file once the
23 lawyer got that; and then we would -- the main thing for us would be the
24 incident, how it came about.
25 Q. Okay. You said you typed it. Do you mean into a computer?
1 A. Yes. [B/C/S on English channel
2 JUDGE ORIE: There must be a mistake in switching. We just
3 received B/C/S on the channel.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, there has been, sorry.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, could you please repeat your last question so
6 that the witness can answer it, your last question being: "You said you
7 typed it. Do you mean into a computer?"
8 And then could you please respond to that question.
9 THE WITNESS: All right.
10 MR. RE:
11 Q. You typed it into a computer; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, I typed it into a computer.
13 Q. And what happened to the information you typed into a computer.
14 You mentioned some reports a moment ago.
15 A. Yes. What would happen then is all these files were kept at the
16 HLC, and then occasionally there would be a public statement or there
17 would be a public report that was based on the interviews that we took.
18 Q. Did any of the information, which you took from witnesses or
19 people you spoke to on the ground, make it into these published reports?
20 A. Yes. There was -- there was -- one of the reports that I remember
21 was reports -- a report about the missing people in Kosovo, and I think
22 that was in June 1998 that was published. There's a little brochure.
23 They were called spot reports, if I remember -- spotlight reports, if I
24 remember correctly.
25 Q. Where did you go the first time you went to Kosovo in 1998?
1 A. The first time I went to Kosovo, I first went to -- to Drenica.
2 But that was quite disorganised, and I didn't have a report from there.
3 That was after the first major incident. But then immediately after that,
4 I went west and I went to Pec and Decane, in that area, because there were
5 reports that people's houses, most of all, were attacked in that area.
6 Q. And when was it that you first went to Kosovo?
7 A. Oh, I first went on the 20 -- I arrived on the 28th of February,
8 and then it was the beginning of March, maybe the 1st, 2nd, of March, so
9 the first week of March.
10 Q. I want you to tell the Court, the Trial Chamber, about what you
11 observed when you went to Drenica.
12 A. Oh, that was -- that was actually quite strange, because I went
13 with another -- with two colleagues; one of whom was not even working in
14 the field, but he was driving the car. So we went up to a place called
15 Polance [phoen], and there had been -- there was a house where an old
16 woman was mistreated and we went to talk to her. And I didn't understand
17 much because everything was in Albanian and at that time I really didn't
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I apologise, but the question that was put to the
22 witness is being answered in a rather round about way, and I would suggest
23 that the witness confine herself to the question put, which was: "What did
24 you observe?" Thus far, we have not had any discussion about any
1 I understand, of course, that there is latitude with regard to
2 answering questions; however, it is really not responsive to the question
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, the way in which the witness
6 introduced her answer was fully appropriate; and of course the witness, as
7 she did until now, will carefully listen to the question and respond to it
8 as directly as possible. But to say where you went and why you went
9 somewhere before you give the observations you made at that place is fully
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. Yes. If you could perhaps make it a little bit more direct --
14 A. Right.
15 Q. -- and just tell us where you went and why you went there.
16 A. Okay. In more general terms, not when I actually went the first
18 JUDGE ORIE: Answer the question as you deem fit. If there's any
19 problem, you'll hear from us. Yes, please proceed.
20 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Right. Okay. So the first time doesn't seem to be very relevant
22 for this case. But when I went there, there were already -- there were --
23 people were fairly agitated. It was -- the atmosphere was rather tense,
24 and the people I talked to - I can't even remember exactly who I talked to
25 first - but everyone was talking about general insecurity and about
1 increased traffic on the roads at night and seeing people that they had
2 not seen before. And they were not -- they didn't live in those villages.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 THE WITNESS: And then --
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think the Chamber anticipates my objection. The
7 answer given is one of hearsay.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Hearsay is not, in general terms, disallowed here.
9 So if a witness gives hearsay evidence, Mr. Guy-Smith, there's -- first of
10 all, the Chamber would be aware of that, and of course we'll take that
11 into consideration.
12 Mr. Re, of course, is instructed if the factual basis is unclear
13 or insufficiently clear to further explore that matter - and of course the
14 Defence also has an opportunity at a later stage to further examine the
15 witness on the factual basis of the testimony - the Chamber would highly
16 appreciate, Mr. Guy-Smith, to start with, to let the flow of information
17 go as uninterrupted as possible.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I appreciate that, Your Honour. The reason that I
19 did choose to rise was because of the specific language used: "I can't
20 remember exactly who I talked to first, but everyone was talking ..." And
21 keeping in mind the instructions that you had given earlier today, it is
22 for that reason, and that reason alone, that I stood. I fully appreciate
23 that hearsay is admissible.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But, Mr. Guy-Smith, the instruction of course
25 primarily is for the examining counsel. So before the witness had
1 finished her answer, you had objected already, where Mr. Re did not even
2 have an opportunity to further inquire into who, how many, people told to
3 the witness what she said that was told to her by -- I don't know whether
4 she said "everybody" or "most of the people."
5 But let's try to keep the flow of evidence as uninterrupted as
6 possible. Mr. Re has certainly understood my instructions. Please
8 MR. RE:
9 Q. Just in general terms, what was the general insecurity people told
10 you about?
11 A. Right. There was a woman in Klina that told me about having been
12 stopped in January. Late at night, she was travelling with her husband,
13 and there was another car with her brother and her brother's family. And
14 they were stopped late at night by men in uniforms who wanted to check
15 their IDs. A similar incident was --
16 Q. I'll just stop you there. Did she tell you the ethnicity or the
17 identity of the men in uniforms who stopped her?
18 A. She said that they talked in Albanian; but then when they realised
19 that they were not Albanians, then they talked to them in Serbian. They
20 asked them for their IDs. They asked if there were any police or any
21 weapons in the cars and then they released them.
22 Q. Did the woman tell you whether these men identified themselves as
23 belonging to any organisation, or whether she was able to say whether they
24 belonged to any organisation?
25 A. She said they were in uniforms, but they were not police uniforms.
1 Q. Was there anything else of any significance that people told you
2 on your first trip to Kosovo?
3 A. Yes. There was another -- I mean, all the first interviews -- and
4 at that time what most people seemed to have experienced, is they were
5 either stopped, late night, on the road. There was another incident close
6 to -- closer to Pec. But it was -- it seemed to be always on the more
7 remote roads and late at night.
8 And then the next thing was is the beginning of March is where
9 some people experienced attacks in their houses. There were no
10 casualties. But this would be either a hand grenade thrown into their
11 yard, as was the case, I think, in the village of Pec --
12 Q. I want to try to take you through chronologically, if I possibly
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Have we finished with your first trip to Kosovo?
16 A. Yes. That's not relevant for here.
17 Q. When was your second trip to Kosovo? Can you give us the date?
18 A. My second trip was end of March.
19 Q. 1998.
20 A. 1998, yes.
21 Q. Who did you go to Kosovo with?
22 A. End of March, I travelled to Pristina alone; but then the villages
23 I visited, I visited with another friend, a colleague, who was working at
24 the HLC.
25 Q. Who was that?
1 A. A colleague from Pristina.
2 Q. Are you able to give the Court his name or her name?
3 A. I could but I'd rather -- I cannot implicate other people.
4 Q. I won't --
5 A. I could give you the name. I don't know what the rules are. You
6 have to advise me on that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: The rules are quite simple, that you answer the
8 questions. If you have any concern about giving names, where you feel
9 that by giving names in public that you might engage any risk for those
10 people, you could ask us whether you could give those names in private
11 session. We'll then consider that request and either allow you or not
12 allow you to give the names in private session, which means that the
13 public will not hear the name you are giving. Of course, the parties will
14 hear it, but it's not relayed to the outside world. And everyone in this
15 courtroom is under an obligation to keep it where it is.
16 So if that sufficiently clarifies -- so if you would say -- I
17 mean, whether you implicate someone, that's another matter. We'd like to
18 hear the answers to the questions as precisely as possible. But I leave
19 it to Mr. Re to what extent the name here is -- whether he wants to
20 press -- to get an answer to that.
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. I don't press you for the name. Was it a colleague from the HLC?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I want you to tell us where you went and how you got there. Just
25 confine yourself to that for the moment.
1 A. Right. We went to -- to the village of Ratis, where I went to see
2 a couple --
3 Q. Where you went and how you got there. How did you get from
4 Pristina to Ratis?
5 A. From Pristina to Ratis, I travelled in the car with my colleague.
6 She was driving the car. This is an HLC car, or was at the time.
7 Q. Did you have an interpreter with you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Was there any police presence -- I'm sorry, I withdraw that.
10 Which road did you take to travel from Pristina?
11 A. Well, we kept to the main roads. We went via Pec/Peje and Decane.
12 Q. Was there any police presence or roadblocks or road checks between
13 Pristina and Ratis?
14 A. Yes. I think there was at Komarane, there's always been a
15 checkpoint. But I think we just passed through there, but we were stopped
16 in Decane, right in front of the police station. We were stopped, and the
17 car was searched, and we were asked for IDs. But then they let us go.
18 Q. Is that the Serbian police?
19 A. Yes, Serbian police.
20 Q. Did you see any presence of any armed Albanians at any point
21 between Pristina and Ratis?
22 A. No. No, we didn't.
23 Q. Okay, thank you. Did you have your notebook with you on that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you remember whether you recorded the date of when you went to
2 Ratis on your second trip to Kosovo in that notebook?
3 A. I don't recall recording the date, but I do know the date was
4 probably 28th or 29th of March, or thereabouts, because there had been
5 another incident, and we were supposed to go to Glodjane but then I
6 didn't. I changed my mind and went to Ratis instead.
7 Q. Why did you go to Ratis?
8 A. I went to Ratis to talk to Culafic couple, to the old couple that
9 lived there and whose house had been under attack one evening a few weeks
11 Q. What I'm interested in is how did you get the information that led
12 you to go to Ratis, of all places in Kosovo?
13 A. Right. Well, this is -- this is where -- where we follow the
14 press first, and that was one of the names that had been mentioned, one of
15 the families allegedly attacked then. And so that was -- that was the
16 first start.
17 Q. Do you remember what was the effect of the press report that you--
18 that led you to Kosovo?
19 A. There was a report in different press, and as I recall there --
20 there were several names of several villages and several families whose
21 houses had allegedly been attacked in between 28th of February and, I
22 think, 5th of March or something. That was the first -- that was the
23 first round, the first time, that we started to follow.
24 Q. What was the ethnicity of those whose houses were supposed to have
25 been attacked?
1 A. Well, these people were mostly ethnic Serbs living in Kosovo.
2 Q. Did it -- did you have any information about who was supposed to
3 have attacked them?
4 A. The -- the information in the press was that that was by -- by
5 about the KLA.
6 MR. EMMERSON: I'm so sorry for interrupting, and I'm very
7 conscious of the fact --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. EMMERSON: -- that you've indicated that interruptions should
10 be kept to a minimum, and I will endeavour to do that. But since this is
11 the first occasion on which Mr. Re has sought to elicit multiple hearsay,
12 that is to say, what was said by someone through a journalist published in
13 a newspaper read by this witness, I'm simply inviting Your Honours'
14 guidance as to whether that is material which you would wish to have
15 elicited or whether it transgresses the guidelines that you have laid
16 down. Obviously, once it's clear how Your Honours wish to proceed, then I
17 shan't raise the issue on multiple occasions.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does not disallow these kinds of answers.
20 At the same time, the Defence should be fully aware that if a witness
21 tells us that the reason for her to go somewhere would be publications in
22 the press, and even if she says that the press said that it was the KLA or
23 anyone else, that, of course, the Chamber would not rely on -- I mean, if
24 that's in evidence, that would not lead this Chamber to conclude that,
25 therefore, it was the KLA.
1 We understand this testimony in this context, and that's perhaps a
2 bit different from what you would expect from a jury, but not, since the
3 words are there, that therefore this is conclusive evidence as to who was
4 supposed to do what. It's newspaper material which led the witness to go
5 somewhere, and she explains what she read in the newspaper. That's the
7 MR. EMMERSON: I'm very grateful for the clarification. I
8 apologise for interrupting.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I think it was fully appropriate here to seek
11 Mr. Re, please proceed.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. Was there anything said about who had attacked them?
14 A. What the Court may like to understand is that these were people in
15 their late 60s --
16 Q. No, I'm sorry. The question I'm asking you about was the
17 newspaper report. The question has gone long from the screen, and I can't
18 remember what I asked you.
19 A. Right.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, of course, if there's any direct evidence on
21 the attack, of course, would it not be preferable to hear that, rather
22 than to see what -- whether the newspaper reported on it correctly; yes or
24 MR. RE: It was only for completeness, but I'm getting straight to
25 the point.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
2 MR. RE:
3 Q. Ms. Andjelkovic, I want take you to something you said earlier and
4 then I'll come back to that. You said a little earlier that you were
5 supposed to go to Glodjane but you didn't.
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Why didn't you go to Glodjane?
8 A. Right. There had been an incident where a police officer was
9 killed and then some ethnic Albanians were killed, and there was some
10 fighting. And then there was supposed to be a funeral. This was
11 20-something -- I mean, it was so long ago. The 24th or the 28th,
12 somewhere in that period. And I was supposed to go with two of my
13 colleagues from Pristina, but for some reason I thought I rather should
14 not. And I cannot explain this. There was nothing that had led me to
15 believe that I shouldn't go except an internal feeling that I should not
16 go. And so I didn't. I went to Ratis and interviewed Culafics instead.
17 Q. All right. I want you to tell the Court who you interviewed, the
18 Culafics, and where interviewed them and what they told you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, perhaps first, you said there had been an
20 incident where a police officer was killed and some ethnic Albanians were
21 killed. Was this information that you received from the press as well or
22 from -- from what source?
23 THE WITNESS: Right. The -- the incident was general knowledge
24 because it was in the news. But there was also another of my colleagues
25 who was working at HLC. She was in close contact with the Council for the
1 Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms, that was another organisation based
2 in Pristina, that was following different human rights violations and
3 incidents involving the state and ethnic Albanians throughout the troubles
4 in the 1990s. So she knew when the funeral was going to be. And I think
5 she'd also, I'm not sure, but I think she'd also talked to somebody in
6 Glodjane before.
7 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, the incident was general knowledge.
8 That would include the ethnicity -- you said it was on the news, I take
9 it, by the media. Then you say some ethnic Albanians were killed. Was
10 that part of media reporting as well, that these were the victims?
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, there was -- I think that --
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, that's fine. No, no --
13 A. I think that four or five ethnic Albanians were killed and a
14 police officer was shot dead.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you said there was some fighting.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes, there was fighting because then more police
17 went into the village.
18 JUDGE ORIE: And what's the source of the information for the
20 THE WITNESS: Some of it was in the news and some of it came
21 from -- from my colleagues who were working in Pristina in the --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you explained already how you became aware of
23 the funeral.
24 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re. This is -- by the way, this
1 is the kind of exercise I had in mind if the factual basis of knowledge is
2 not perfectly clear.
3 You're the first witness in this case, so we -- it's not only new
4 for you, but we have to find our ways of getting your evidence.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. Where did you -- where did you speak to the couple in Ratis?
8 A. I spoke at their house, in Ratis, and they showed me where the --
9 what is that -- something is propelled. I'm not sure what, the thing that
10 goes from one shoulder. It left a hole this big --
11 Q. Right. I'll just stop you there. You're holding your hands up
12 about 15 centimetres apart, in a circle.
13 A. Yeah, yeah. It's like circle like that, up -- right underneath
14 the roof. And it went through their house. No one was hurt. This was in
15 the evening, so they could not see the attackers. And the man said that
16 there was also -- Mr. Culafic also said that there was automatic fire, and
17 I could see some bullets on the side of the house.
18 Q. You said you had your notebook. Did you record what they told you
19 in your notebook?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. Okay. Do you have your notebook here with you at the moment?
22 A. I have a copy of it.
23 Q. Right. What were the names of the people -- these two people you
24 spoke to?
25 A. Jela Culafic and Nastadin. They also called him Malisa. But he
1 was a big man; he wasn't small.
2 Q. Right. I want you to have a look on the screen at Exhibit 693,
3 pages 16 to 19 of the exhibit.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you give a number to --
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. Can you see it in front of you? Can you see something on the
7 screen in front of you?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, we first would need a number for -- an MFI
10 MR. RE:
11 Q. First of all, the thing on the screen, just for the record, can
12 you identify that as a copy of your --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, Madam Registrar, I think that we would give
14 numbers immediately, MFI numbers, so that ...
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this would be Exhibit number P1, I
16 marked for identification.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
19 MR. RE: Thank you. For the record, just what I'm doing is I'll
20 be showing the witness the diaries which are 65 ter Exhibit 693, 694, 695
21 and 696 --
22 JUDGE ORIE: And you want to tender them into evidence?
23 MR. RE: Yes, and taking her to extracts in them. That was my
24 intention, to identify extracts in the diaries.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, if you -- you say you want to
1 tender these documents as exhibits. So, therefore, in order to avoid
2 whatever confusion, they should receive a number right away. And we now
3 have P1 in front of us. Please proceed.
4 MR. RE:
5 Q. If I can take you to what's on the screen in front of you.
6 There's a -- I actually want to take you to page 16 of the English
8 MR. RE: There's always teething problems the first time we do
10 Q. Now, what I want you to do is to look at that and to tell us
11 whether that's a translation of the notes you took in your conversation
12 with Mr. and Mrs. Culafic on --
13 A. Culafic.
14 Q. -- in late March 1998.
15 A. Yes, it pretty much is.
16 MR. RE: The relevant pages go that one, the next one, and the one
17 afterwards. As Your Honour will see with e-court, you've got to go from
18 page to page to find them on the screen.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think we've got page 16 on the screen. Yes.
20 MR. RE:
21 Q. Where did you -- who were the next people you spoke to after
22 speaking to the -- that couple?
23 A. Next I spoke to the son of the police officer that had been killed
24 in Ratis a few weeks before.
25 Q. What was his name?
1 A. The family name was Prascevic, but I'm not sure I can remember the
2 son's name. There's a very short note, I think before this page. The
3 killed -- the man that was killed was called Slobodan Prascevic. I spoke
4 to his son but I can't quite recall whether he was Milan or Milovan,
5 something like that. Prascevic was the name. I also spoke with
6 Prascevic's daughter and wife, but they were quite confused and this was
7 still -- they were grieving, so ...
8 Q. What was the effect of what they told you?
9 A. Well, the effect was that -- I'm sorry, I don't understand. You
10 mean with the assassination of the police or attacks on houses and farms?
11 Q. The attacks on houses.
12 A. Okay, right. So later on, after Culafic family, I spoke with a
13 few families from the villages in that general area were close to. I
14 spoke to the man in Lug Bunar, in Bec, in Crmljane, and all these attacks
15 happened between the 28th of February and the 5th of March. And in
16 Crmljane, one of the families that lived -- Babovic, they lived at the
17 very end of the village, very remote place, the man claimed that their
18 house had been shot at twice; once on the 28th of February, and the second
19 time was the 5th of March -- or was it the 1st of March, 5th of March,
20 something like that.
21 Q. What was their ethnicity?
22 A. They were all ethnic Serbs.
23 Q. Did they tell you who had shot at them?
24 A. They didn't know exactly because most of these attacks would
25 happen at night. But generally, everyone claimed that they had already
1 been an armed guerrilla group and they attributed attacks to them. At
2 that time, very early, nobody had seen people or seen their attackers.
3 MR. RE: Can I -- in e-court, can we just go back to the fifth
4 page of the exhibit currently displayed, and in the middle of the page, in
5 the English, there's a heading called Prascevic interview.
6 THE WITNESS: Prascevic.
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. Yes. The first line says, "The police are not allowed to enter
9 Jablanica. The son suspects the terrorists had done this and he sent a
11 Can you tell the Chamber what that's about?
12 A. This is something very, very complicated. I don't understand
13 how --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, just a moment. Just a line was read to you
15 by Mr. Re saying: "The police are not allowed to enter Jablanica." Is
16 that what someone said to you?
17 THE WITNESS: That's what the son said.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. It says Prascevic interview. Is what's recorded there the
20 contents of your interview with the son of Prascevic?
21 A. Yes. Unfortunately, the interview had been interrupted by a
22 telephone call, and I don't know what he thought, but then all of a sudden
23 he stopped talking and, I guess you could say, sent me packing. Because
24 it was one of my colleagues from Pristina had called, and I think he was
25 nervous because my colleague was Albanian and she spoke with an accent.
1 So unfortunately ...
2 Q. I'm interested in the source of the information, "the police are
3 not allowed to enter Jablanica." Was that something he told you or
4 something --
5 A. Yes, that's what he said. His father was a police officer. And
6 if I recall -- I don't quite remember, but if I recall right, I think he
7 was also with the police.
8 Q. If you go down a little, it says: "Dragoslav Stojanovic was
9 stopped on the road. He works in the school in Dubrava. A group from
10 Albanian had taken his brother Vlado across the border, beat him up and
11 took his saw and weapons."
12 Who told you that?
13 A. This is also what Mr. Prascevic told me. But later on I spoke to
14 these people. These were two separate incidents.
15 Q. The next information in the diary says: "Three hundred houses, a
16 pure Serbian village; the remaining 18 villages are Albanian. On 28
17 February 1998, an incident occurred." Above that it says, "Mr. Zvonko
19 A. Yes. That was the man that I talked to, the man that was beaten
20 up on the road between Gorazde and Pec. That was another person that I
21 interviewed at about that time.
22 MR. RE: If we could go four pages over.
23 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you also, what is said here, "three hundred
24 houses," et cetera, that's all what he told you.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. It's -- the one I want you to go to has an 8 at the bottom of the
5 page, and the date -- says Monday, the 2nd of March, 1998. All right.
6 Without -- without looking at the name on the top, is it possible to --
7 okay. There's information there, and there's someone's name on the top.
8 Is that -- it says: "Monday, 2 March 1998, Sloba told me to take my son
9 and the vehicle and come to Rznic." Now, there's a lot of information
10 there. I'm not going to take you to all of them -- all of it. But what
11 was the effect, the summary, of what you were told here and what you
13 A. Right. Well, this woman claimed that she had been in the car when
14 this police officer was killed, and it was also her son was in the car. I
15 spoke with her when she was still at the hospital in Pec, because she had
16 been wounded. She had also told -- she also told me that later on that
17 same day, that there was a group of armed men around her house, and that
18 her children who had been -- the rest of her children who had been in the
19 house had fled.
20 Q. Did she say who the armed men were?
21 A. She didn't. She said they were armed but she never identified
22 them as one group or another.
23 Q. Were you given any information which could have allowed you to
24 conclude who they were?
25 A. Armed men, you know, in that general area, I would have thought
1 that that was the -- the guerrillas.
2 MR. RE: Could we go to the page, which is page 23 of that
3 particular exhibit.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Because there's a pause, I don't believe I am
6 breaking the flow, I'd interpose an objection. Lack of foundation. Also,
7 the answer is speculative and is not something which should be relied
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. RE: I'm sorry.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
12 MR. RE: Yes. Thank you. If you could perhaps move down and go
13 to Radenko Fatic, Crmljane, 3rd of April, 1998. I'll just leave it there
14 for a moment.
15 Q. There's some entries in your diary which suggest you were in
16 Kosovo on the 3rd of April, 1998.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Where were you then?
19 A. I went to Crmljane and that's where I spoke with Radenko Fatic. I
20 spoke with him at his house.
21 Q. Why did you go to Crmljane?
22 A. Because that was one of the villages that was listed as alleged --
23 one of the alleged attacks on Serbian families in the villages.
24 Q. What was the information you had that led you to go to that
25 particular village? Where did you obtain the information and what was the
2 A. This was all -- I think this was all in the press. There was a
3 list of villages that were named, and then I tried to get to some of them
4 and talk to at least some of the families.
5 Q. Tell us about the interview with Radenko Fatic on the 3rd of
6 April, 1998?
7 A. Well, Mr. Fatic said that the attack came at night and that he
8 claimed to -- to have recognised his next-door neighbour. He would not
9 tell me the name. In fact, I recall that he said, "I will tell to people
10 who need to know." But -- but he also said that the two other houses were
11 under attack that same night. And then I went to see the other -- the
12 other person, Mr. Babovic. And then there was a third house where there
13 were two old people, but I -- I didn't find them, they were not at home.
14 If I recall well, they had children elsewhere.
15 Q. Your notes also record that you met a Pera Delic, D-e-l-i-c, on
16 the 3rd of April, 1998. Where did you meet Mr. Delic?
17 A. I met him at his home in Lug Bunar.
18 Q. What did he tell you?
19 A. He told me a very similar story, that that was -- that somebody
20 had shot at their house. It was night and he had -- I think he had his
21 hunting rifle or something. But he didn't see exactly -- exactly see the
22 attackers because it was dark, so he could not see clearly.
23 MR. RE: Can e-court just go back one page, please.
24 Q. Looking at page 22 of Exhibit 693 --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. -- does that record your interview with Mr. Pera Delic or someone
2 else in the family?
3 A. That was Mr. Delic.
4 Q. Next one I want to go to is -- if I can approach it this way. You
5 were there in 1998.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How many people did you interview or how many places did you go to
8 in April -- about that time, April 3rd, 1998.
9 A. The first -- you know, it was in the villages of -- I went to
10 Ratis. I spoke to people in Decane. I met with several of the Stojanovic
11 family. I talked to these two families in Crmljane. I talked to
12 Mr. Delic in Lug Bunar. I spoke with an elderly man. There were three
13 houses in Bec, and all houses were allegedly attacked with hand-grenade
14 attacks. Again, no casualties. But I spoke with two people. And I'm not
15 sure. I believe they were -- there were Djukic, Mitic, and I think Lakic.
16 There's a mistake in the translation. Probably they couldn't read it --
17 read my handwriting. These were the three families. And there was -- I
18 think it was the old man -- I think that was Mr. Mitic. And then a
19 younger man came to -- came to collect his father and take him to
20 Djakovica, because they felt it was not safe to stay there alone.
21 Q. Tell us about when you spoke to Mr. Djakovic. Was that in Bec?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. RE: All right. Can we just go to page 23, which is the next
24 page of the diary, at the very top of it.
25 Q. Is this, in fact, the interview with Mr. Djakovic from Bec?
1 A. Yeah, I think so.
2 Q. It says -- the heading is Djakovica. "We now live in Djakovica
3 and we can no longer leave. This was between 28 and 1 March, around 1.15
4 hours, three bombs were thrown in that direction." And so on.
5 A. Yeah.
6 Q. The information there, just to clarify it, was what Mr. Djakovic
7 told you.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. Was there any -- were you given any other information
10 when you were there which enabled you to draw any conclusions as to who
11 was the aggressor?
12 A. No. That was not, because that was -- that was at night and it
13 was in the dark, and this place is really -- you know, it's almost in the
14 woods, these three houses.
15 Q. So the answer is no.
16 A. The answer is no, sorry.
17 MR. RE: Is that an appropriate time, Your Honours?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's approximately one hour and a half after we
19 started this afternoon.
20 Before we adjourn, however, Mr. Re, in terms of timing, of course
21 we spent some time in the beginning on procedural issues, but the witness
22 has been scheduled for two hours, I think, in chief, which would mean that
23 you would finish during the next session. Is that correctly understood?
24 MR. RE: Yes. As I read it, I've had one hour and I've got one
25 more to go.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Of course. In the next session. We would
2 then, after one hour, because that brings me to my next question. The
3 Defence earlier indicated that they reserve the right not to start
4 cross-examination. Is that still your position, or would you consider it
5 a possibility, to at least start cross-examining the witness today? I'm
6 not pushing. I'm just seeking information.
7 MR. EMMERSON: And with the greatest of reluctance and regret, I
8 have to maintain the position that I took yesterday, because the notes
9 that have been provided to us, which this witness is currently using as
10 the basis of her evidence in-chief, is the central thrust of the material
11 that was disclosed to us so late.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not pushing. I was just wondering whether --
13 MR. EMMERSON: At a convenient moment, probably after this witness
14 has finished her examination-in-chief, may we take stock of the witnesses
15 that are coming, when they're coming and the provision of material so that
16 this situation doesn't continue to arise.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I understand your point.
18 We'll have a break. We'll adjourn and resume at a quarter past
20 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber apologises for the late return. It was
23 caused by an urgent matter we had to deal with during the break.
24 Mr. Re, you may proceed.
25 MR. RE: I can report back to the Chamber that the protective
1 measures motion has been filed, and I have copies here of another filing
2 which was an annex to another confidential filing. It's a declaration of
3 the investigator. I've given copies to the Defence. Is it appropriate
4 for me to hand it to the Trial Chamber? It is only a copy of the
5 declaration part, not the actual motion.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Re.
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. Ms. Andjelkovic, before the break we were talking about your visit
9 to Kosovo in around April the 3rd of 1998. How long were you in Kosovo on
10 that occasion?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. From what you saw and observed, did you -- were you able to draw
13 any conclusions of any activities?
14 A. Well, at that point, the only conclusion that could be drawn was
15 that something was happening in villages, usually in more remote villages
16 and where there were few houses, and -- and little else. I mean, there
17 was -- there was nothing definite that could be concluded at that point.
18 That was still fairly early.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, of course, you're not asking for conclusions.
20 You said: "How long were you in Kosovo at that time?" "From what you saw
21 and observed, were you able to draw any conclusions of any activities?"
22 That is a question which is so unspecific that -- and further it asks for
23 conclusions, opinion, rather than facts.
24 MR. RE: All right.
25 Q. What did you report back to the HLC as a result of your visit to
1 Kosovo on the 3rd of April? What was the effect of what you reported
2 back, based on your observations?
3 A. What I reported back was exactly what people told me, you see,
4 because in the -- in the incident part, we weren't describing things. We
5 could make a note at the end of the text, but we would usually write what
6 people have told us. That was the general principle. And I went a step
7 further and I usually recorded everything verbatim, which means people
8 spoke -- you know, my notes were usually -- people spoke in the dialect,
9 and that's how the reports were filed.
10 Q. What I'm asking you about is, Natasa Kandic had sent you down to
11 Kosovo to look into what was going on.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. When you went back, what did you tell her that you had generally
14 observed about what was going on?
15 A. I told her that the people that I talked to reported that there
16 was increased security [sic], increased activity at night, usually cars
17 going on local roads.
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon. Excuse me.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You said "reported that there was increased
21 security." Maybe the word was recorded incompletely or --
22 THE WITNESS: Increased.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Increased? Increased security?
24 THE WITNESS: Insecurity. I'm sorry.
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Insecurity, thank you.
1 THE WITNESS: And I reported back what -- what the notes --
2 exactly what the notes say; that is, the people that I talked to have
3 alleged that they have been attacked.
4 MR. RE:
5 Q. Your notes indicate that you spoke to people on the 9th of April,
7 A. Yes, that's right.
8 Q. Was that in Kosovo or somewhere else?
9 A. That was -- that was in Kosovo. Now, I really can't recall
10 whether that was the same trip or I went back to Belgrade and then
11 returned to Kosovo after -- a few days later. I really can't recall that.
12 But on the 9th, yes, I was in Kosovo, and I talked to -- to a number of
13 people then.
14 Q. Where did you go?
15 A. I went to Djakovica, but I don't think -- I don't recall having
16 made any interviews there. And then I went back to -- to Decane, where I
17 interviewed two people, if I recall correctly.
18 Q. All right. How did you get to Djakovica?
19 A. On a bus. Public transport.
20 Q. What did you observe about the security situation on your trip
22 A. Well, there was very little to observe, unusual. I mean, at that
23 time there were checkpoints in usual places, usual for whoever travelled
25 Q. Can you elaborate --
1 A. And so --
2 Q. Can you elaborate on what you mean by "the usual places"?
3 A. Well, the usual places, like, there would be a big checkpoint
4 going from Pristina to Pec/Peje. There was a big checkpoint at Komarane;
5 then there was another one at Decane. And then around Djakovica, that
6 depended. But the public transport was still operating, so I travelled on
7 public buses.
8 Q. Your notes indicate that you interviewed some people called
9 Stojanovic on the 9th of April, 1998.
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. Where was that?
12 A. I interviewed them in Decane.
13 Q. Why did you interview them?
14 A. Because I had heard that the -- that after the incident in
15 Glodjane earlier, at the end of March, that they have moved from their
16 village, from their house in Dubrava, to -- to Decane.
17 MR. RE: Can the 33rd page of the present exhibit please be shown
18 to the witness.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This is always the translation?
20 MR. RE: Of the translation.
21 Can we go down the page, please. All right.
22 Q. It says "9th of April, Vlad," and Stojanovic is crossed out, and
23 it says "Filip". I just want you to tell the Trial Chamber about what is
24 written there.
25 A. Right. This is not an interview with Mr. Stojanovic.
1 Q. All right.
2 MR. RE: Can we go to the next page -- or two pages along, I'm
3 sorry, page 35.
4 Q. Is this the correct interview?
5 A. The next one, yes.
6 Q. Okay, all right. Have a look at that. Is -- does that record
7 your interview with Mr. Stojanovic? It says "Dubrava: It was Tuesday" --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- "24th of March this year."
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. "My mother and my brother were there. I took my four-year-old
13 When it says "there," where are they referring to?
14 A. They're referring to -- to their village, to their home in the
15 village of Dubrava.
16 Q. And it says: "I suddenly heard firing."
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did they tell you who was doing the firing?
19 A. No.
20 Q. All right.
21 MR. RE: Can you please just go down the page.
22 Q. It says on the page before the Court, which is marked at page 10
23 on the exhibit: "They opened fire on the next-door neighbours where about
24 20 soldiers were based. When I passed through the village, I noticed that
25 in Glodjane, no one from the neighbours wanted to say hello that day."
1 What sort of soldiers was Mr. Stojanovic referring to?
2 A. I don't know, really.
3 Q. I'm sorry?
4 A. I'm not sure. I have to read it, if you would just give me a
6 Q. Of course.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, just for your guidance, in order to avoid
8 whatever confusion, the question would have been phrased better if you
9 would have asked the witness what the -- whether the interlocutor of the
10 witness explained what soldiers he was referring to, because if you're
11 asking what soldiers was he referring to, then it leaves open that the
12 witness makes conclusions without us even noticing. So, therefore, would
13 you please phrase the questions very precisely in this respect.
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And wouldn't it be easier to show the witness the
15 original of her notes for her to remember this answer, her notes?
16 MR. RE: Of course.
17 Q. Ms. Andjelkovic, you said earlier you have a copy of your notes
18 with you in the court.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. If it assists, how quickly can you find the relevant part?
21 A. I'll try to be fairly quick.
22 Yes. In the original, Mr. Stojanovic just says that in the house
23 next to him, that there were 20 soldiers. He did not refer what sort of
24 soldiers. He said that there was -- they were shooting at the police and
25 the other way around. There was shooting between 20 soldiers and the
2 Q. Were you given information from anyone else as to who these
3 soldiers were?
4 A. It was the general understanding, and at the time all the people
5 were talking about the Kosovo Liberation Army, but this I -- I don't know.
6 I mean, he just said "20 soldiers."
7 Q. Did you also speak to his mother?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. RE: Can we go to the 39th page of this particular exhibit,
10 please. I'm sorry, 36 -- page 36.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, could you please instruct the witness;
12 otherwise I'll do that.
13 Witness, you said it was a general understanding, and all -- at
14 the time all the people were talking about the Kosovo Liberation Army, but
15 you say you don't know. The mere fact that you don't know is sufficient.
16 If Mr. Re would like to elicit from you what you heard people talking
17 about, he'll specifically ask you to whom did you speak, what did they
18 tell you, what questions did they put. But if there's an answer where you
19 say I don't know, I mean, what the rumours were and what the general
20 knowledge was is not something we could draw any conclusions from at this
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
25 MR. RE:
1 Q. Go to the bottom of the page on page 36. Who is that referring
2 to? It says "LJS: Have been on the land for 75 years, 65 years. They
3 did not attack me. I intended to return there. Until the police came, I
4 was with them everyday."
5 A. Those are -- what is --
6 Q. Who is that referring to?
7 A. That is -- that refers to Mrs. Stojanovic.
8 Q. What did she tell you?
9 A. Well, she said that she was at home and that they were -- since
10 they were the only house in ten villages, that occasionally -- actually,
11 quite frankly, twice a week approximately there would be a police patrol
12 that would come and visit just to check on her and see if she was all
14 Q. When you say the only house in ten villages, what are you talking
15 about, the "only house"? Are you talking about ethnicity or something
17 A. Yeah. She claimed that that was the only ethnic Serb house in ten
18 villages around. I don't know if that was quite correct, but that is what
19 she said.
20 Q. Did she tell you whether anything had happened to her or her
22 A. She said that at -- she didn't specify the date, but she said that
23 her son, who was visiting with her, told everyone to get into the house,
24 and then she heard shooting outside, and she saw some police, and then she
25 said that they were under -- that there was fire exchanged for -- for a
1 while, until the evening, and then they were taken to -- to Decane, out
2 of -- out of their -- their house in Dubrava.
3 Q. Who is "they," and who took them to Decane, and when?
4 A. It was her two sons, herself, and -- and the grandson, I
6 Q. What were their names?
7 A. I don't know the grandson's name, but her sons were -- one was
8 Vladimir; the other one was Mijat. It may be that Dragoslava was there as
9 well. I don't recall. Maybe.
10 Q. Did she tell you, or did anyone tell you, who the fire exchange
11 was between?
12 A. She didn't see that. She didn't see who exactly was -- was
13 shooting, but she knew that they had been -- that earlier that day, that
14 the police were shot at. And then it seems that the family - that's what
15 they said - the family radioed the police, who then sent another patrol.
16 Q. Who took them to Decane?
17 A. I presume it was the police.
18 Q. All right. Did she tell you why they went there?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, if the witness says, "I presume it was," you
20 should ask the witness, then, if she presumes that, what is the basis of
21 this presumption? You may understand that we're trying to elicit from
22 you, first of all, what you observed yourself. Of course, part of your
23 work was to conduct interviews, so we'll hear about the interviews as
25 But if a question is put to you, who brought them there and you
1 say, "I presume it was the police," it could be because you were told it
2 was the police, or it was because you concluded from the whole of the
3 situation, and all these matters should be entirely clear to us from
4 which -- from what basis --
5 THE WITNESS: Right.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- you tell us that it was presumably the police. And
7 if it's just conclusions and presumptions --
8 THE WITNESS: Right.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- then we might even limit ourselves to what is of
10 greater interest to us, and that's your personal observation and the
11 direct results of your interviews.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
13 MR. RE:
14 Q. I think the Trial Chamber wants me to clarify with you the basis
15 of your presumption. You said you presumed it was the police. As briefly
16 as you possibly can, why do you say you presume it was the police?
17 A. The basis for the presumption was -- I'm not sure, but I think
18 that's what her son told me. They were all together. Because I can't
19 find it here. I don't see it in the notes on the interview with her.
20 Q. What information, if any, were you given about her sons Dragoslav
21 and Mijat?
22 A. At that time she mentioned that her son Dragoslav had been stopped
23 a few weeks earlier on the road and that he was -- he was asked whether he
24 had any weapons.
25 Q. Stopped by whom?
1 A. Stopped by armed men.
2 Q. All right. Were you given any information as to who the armed men
4 A. She said that they asked him where he was from and searched his
5 car and found a pistol.
6 Q. What I'm asking you is about whether she gave you any information
7 as to who the armed men were.
8 A. No.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. What she claimed was that there were armed men and that they were
11 carrying -- that they were masked, as she said.
12 Q. Were you given any information about anything happening to
13 Dragoslav and Mijat later?
14 A. That was later on. I talked also to Dragoslav, but much, much
15 later. I talked to a cousin of theirs who went back to the village a few
16 days later to collect some -- some things, and that was, I think, round
17 the -- mid-April, as I recall.
18 Q. Was it mid-April you had the conversation or mid-April you were
19 told it occurred?
20 A. It was mid-April -- mid-April that that had occurred. I think I
21 talked to them after Easter, immediately after Easter.
22 Q. You said you talked to a cousin of theirs. Who was the cousin?
23 A. Could I have a look at his name? Because I'm getting to be a bit
24 tired. I can't remember whether the name was Stijovic or something, but
25 they went back to the village together, according to him, and they were
1 detained for a few hours and beaten up and then taken back to the road.
2 And --
3 Q. Were you given any information about who detained them and who
4 beat them up?
5 A. That was -- they said that there were armed people in Glodjane and
6 they were taken to Glodjane, and that was the first time that I heard the
7 name, what I thought was Haradini or Haradinaj.
8 Q. Is this in your diary?
9 A. It is somewhere.
10 Q. In what context were you told the name Haradini or Haradinaj?
11 A. As I recall, it was in the context that that was the person that
12 they recognised or that they knew.
13 Q. What were you told had happened to them?
14 A. I was told that they were taken from their house to a house in
15 Glodjane, and that then they were questioned and beaten up, especially
16 Dragoslav Stojanovic.
17 Q. Where does the Haradini or Haradinaj name come from in the context
18 of what you're telling us?
19 A. That was the name that they mentioned.
20 Q. In what context did they mention the name?
21 A. In the context that -- that was the man that they -- that they --
22 that was coming in and out of that room and that seemed to have some sort
23 of authority.
24 Q. And what room was that?
25 JUDGE ORIE: May I please interrupt here.
1 MR. RE: I'm sorry.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: What you just told us, is that what the cousin told
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Because you referred to "they" just a while ago.
7 THE WITNESS: Ah.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You said that was the name "they" mentioned. Now, I
9 tried to understand your testimony as good as I can; that is, the cousin,
10 if I did understand you well, describes how not he alone, but together
11 with the persons you mentioned and was taken to a house, and then you said
12 "that was the name they mentioned." And it is perfectly unclear to me
13 whether this was the name the cousin told you or --
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- Could you be very precise in this respect.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'll try to be, but it's been eight years.
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you don't remember, then please tell us. Everyone
18 will understand.
19 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry I'm confusing the Court, there's-- because
20 that was when -- when this incident -- after this incident happened, I
21 talked to several people, not at the same time, but in that particular
22 situation, there was a lot of agitation, because there were -- a lot of
23 families were leaving their villages.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could I perhaps stop you there.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You said you talked to many people. Could you tell
2 us who they were?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So you talked about a cousin. Who were the others?
5 THE WITNESS: Just a second. I'm trying to find these particular
7 JUDGE ORIE: Take your time.
8 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you.
9 MR. RE: Perhaps if I could assist the Trial Chamber and refer to
10 65 ter number 694 and the 20th page of that exhibit.
11 Q. If you can see on the screen in front of you, does that assist?
12 It says: "Stojanovic Mijat, Dragoslav. It was before Easter when we set
13 off in two weeks. Veselin Stijovic, a cousin, was with us when we noticed
14 two or three men."
15 Who was it you were speaking to?
16 A. I was speaking to Mijat because Dragoslav -- I was told that
17 Dragoslav was at the hospital at that time.
18 Q. The information you've recorded there about someone called
19 Nasim Haradinaj and a beating and throwing them into a courtyard, taking
20 their documents, and so on --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- was that information given to you by the cousin?
23 A. I think this was the interview with Mijat. I also talked to
24 Stijovic, but at this point I can't recall whether it was then or later on
25 in September when I went back. And I also talked to Dragoslav Stojanovic,
1 after he'd come out of hospital.
2 Q. When did you meet the two, do you recall? Oh, I'm sorry. I
3 said -- Dragoslav Stojanovic. When did you meet Dragoslav Stojanovic?
4 A. I met Dragoslav later -- later in the year. It could have been
5 September, late September.
6 Q. Did you record your notes or interview in your notebook?
7 A. I haven't seen it in the notebook.
8 Q. Your notes say that on the 22nd of April, they refer to you being
9 in Belgrade and meeting a Roma man called Ramadan Uka, or Nezaj.
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. What were your circumstances of meeting this Roma man in Belgrade?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, if you take the witness to a certain portion
13 of her notes, the Chamber would be happy to know exactly where to find it
14 so that we can follow you. And, by the way, when you refer to the other
15 document on which we are now on page 20, it needed a number because it was
16 not the original document we had in front of us earlier.
17 Madam Registrar, that would be ...?
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this would be Exhibit Number P2,
19 marked for identification.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
21 Mr. Re, could you take us to the page, and could you also be very
22 precise also in your questioning. I mean, you could assist the witness in
23 being as detailed as possible, and I'll stand corrected as well where I
24 earlier said that the witness said that she talked to many people; you
25 said to several people only, so I made a mistake there.
1 MR. RE: The exhibit we're on at the moment, P2, MFI --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. RE: -- the bottom of page 1.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for that.
5 MR. RE: And also at the top of page 2 which may assist.
6 Q. It records: "22nd of April, Djakovica, Uk Nexhaj from Budisavci,
7 near Pec."
8 MR. RE: Just go to the top of the page.
9 Q. Why did you interview this person?
10 A. I talked to Ramadan because the -- a Roma organisation from
11 Belgrade, their local organisation -- I don't even know what they're
12 called. They are a Roma association of some sort or other. They came and
13 said they were Roma refugees from Kosovo in a particular place, in a
14 settlement, provision -- you know, cardboard-box settlement, near the
15 Sava River in Belgrade, so I went down to see them, to see what -- their
17 Q. You've recorded information there about the aunt coming out and
18 asking who it was in Albanian, them breaking the door; one of them was
19 carrying an automatic. Were you given any information as to who these
20 people were, the ones who came to the door with the automatic?
21 A. Ramadan said -- claimed that he knew some of them, and later on
22 that page you can find names, as I wrote them down. This is what I heard
23 from him.
24 MR. RE: Can you please go to the next page.
25 Q. There are three names written on the next page which is on the
1 screen. It says: "Vilson, Kitaj, and Buq Veselaj." Are they the names
2 you're referring to?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Underneath it says: "The other Roma are scared of the Albanians."
5 What was the information you have about which Albanians they're referring
7 A. That's what the man said. He didn't specify and he didn't -- he
8 didn't specify who exactly. He -- for the most part, he talked about what
9 happened to his family and how they left under threat and didn't feel
10 secure to remain in Klina.
11 Q. Did he tell you why the Roma feared the Albanians?
12 A. He gave, you know, this other reason, that they were -- some
13 people felt threatened -- felt that they had to go to the polls in the
14 previous election that was not recognised by the state. But his
15 predominant fear was what happened to them and the threat that they
17 Q. When he spoke about Albanians, was he talking about Albanians in
18 general or specific Albanians?
19 A. I would not like to guess.
20 Q. All right. Were you in April -- were you in Belgrade in mid-April
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were there any media reports causing your organisation any
25 A. Yes, there were. There were a series of reports in April about
1 different families being attacked in villages, usually in villages where
2 there were only a few houses. But for this particular case, as far as
3 Ramadan is concerned, this was something that we were referred to by this
4 Roma organisation, because they knew about them and brought some aid to
5 the family as the first -- you know, as a first aid kit, so to speak.
6 Q. All right. You said about different families being attacked in
7 villages. What do you mean by "different families"?
8 A. Different families were -- there were families in several
9 villages, and I later on, on the -- after Easter, I interviewed some of
10 them. There were incidents involving family, as I recall, family Jukic.
11 I talked to the sister of these two men; they were brothers.
12 Q. I just want to -- what I'm after at the moment is there were
13 different families. Was it something to do with their ethnicity or
14 something else?
15 A. They were -- usually they were ethnic Serbs, at the moment -- at
16 that moment.
17 Q. As a result of your organisation hearing about these media
18 reports, what did you do?
19 A. Well, I was sent out to Decane to try and speak with some of these
21 Q. And where did you go?
22 A. To Decane.
23 Q. When was that?
24 A. This was on the 20-something April. I think that Easter was on
25 the 19th, and then that would have been -- Easter Monday. That would have
1 been Tuesday or Wednesday after Easter --
2 Q. How did you get --
3 A. -- of that year.
4 Q. -- there?
5 A. I went on a bus --
6 Q. What --
7 A. -- from Pristina, and then from Pristina to Pec, and then from Pec
8 to Decane.
9 Q. What did you observe of the security situation on the road to
11 A. The first thing that I saw that there was a lot of police at the
12 police station, and then I walked to where the -- where I'd previously
13 talked to a few people. This -- there was these small wooden huts that
14 used to be this sort of youth camp --
15 Q. All right.
16 A. -- and I'd heard from people in Decane that there would be
17 villagers who had fled their villages, that they would be there. And so I
18 went up the road where I knew that they would be, and again I saw a lot of
19 police and I was turned back. And I --
20 Q. Who turned you back?
21 A. The police.
22 Q. Whereabouts did they turn you back?
23 A. As I was going up, up the hill where this youth -- former youth
24 camp used to be. So I went back to Decane, but by the time I got back
25 there, which is about half a kilometre each way, I think word already
1 spread that there was somebody who would interview people, who wanted to
2 talk to them, and so I talked to a number of them in Decane.
3 Q. Okay. What I'm -- I'm just interested in the police turning you
4 back at the moment.
5 A. Mm-hmm.
6 Q. Where were you going, and why did they turn you back?
7 A. I was going to this youth camp, and the police turned me back
8 because they didn't want me to be there, I suppose.
9 Q. Did they give you a reason?
10 A. No, they actually didn't. They just told me to go right back
11 where I came from and wouldn't let me go to the -- up to the camp, all the
12 way to the camp.
13 Q. On that particular trip to Kosovo, did you observe any military
15 A. Military? No. At that point, no.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, just for my clarification, when you're
17 talking about the police, you're talking about the regular police forces
18 who at that moment --
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, regular police force, state police, Serbian
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. RE:
24 Q. How many people did you interview in this former youth camp?
25 A. Well, I didn't interview them at the camp because I went back to
1 Decane. But then I must have talked to about half a dozen that I really
2 talked to individually, because at first --
3 Q. Okay. One step at a time.
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Where did you interview them?
6 A. There was a little cafe just off the main --
7 Q. A cafe in Decane?
8 A. In Decane, yes.
9 Q. Next step. How many people did you interview? Just the figures.
10 A. I don't know, five, six.
11 Q. Where were they from?
12 A. They were from villages in the Decane area.
13 Q. Which villages?
14 A. Some were from Pozar, some from Ljubarda. There were some from --
15 I think even from Papracane. Mainly villages from that area.
16 Q. What was the ethnicity of these people?
17 A. All of them were ethnic Serbs.
18 Q. Did you record what they told you in your notebook?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What was the effect of what they were telling you about what had
21 happened to them and why they were in Decane?
22 A. The general feeling was everybody was very agitated. Some of them
23 had been stopped before, like a few days before. Some had been taken by
24 armed men and questioned and then released. And there was a general
25 feeling of insecurity, and most of them felt that they could not stay in
1 their villages, mainly due to the fact that they were fairly -- there were
2 fairly few houses. And there was a general feeling of insecurity.
3 Q. Fairly few houses of what ethnicity?
4 A. Of Kosovar Serbs.
5 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you one -- may I, Mr. Re.
6 You say that there was a general feeling of insecurity, "and most
7 of them felt that they could not stay in their villages."
8 Now, you told us that you spoke to five or six people. When you
9 say "most of them," is it that you're talking about four out of these five
10 or four out of these six, or is it that you're telling us that they said
11 that others, perhaps in similar circumstances or different circumstances,
12 that -- were they reporting on what they observed to be kind of a general
13 feeling or are you telling us that most of them, that is, most of the
14 people you interviewed?
15 THE WITNESS: Most of the people I interviewed claimed that there
16 was a sense of insecurity, increasing insecurity, and that they could not
17 stay safely in their villages and that they wanted to leave and --
18 especially if they had children.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Were they speaking just for themselves or were
20 they, in a way --
21 THE WITNESS: They were speaking for themselves but also for
22 others. These are small communities. And --
23 JUDGE ORIE: And could you tell us how they exactly expressed
24 that. I can imagine that, speaking for themselves, they would have said
25 something like, I feel that it's not safe here; I can't stay in my
2 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.
3 JUDGE ORIE: How did they refer to what they claimed was a feeling
4 among others?
5 THE WITNESS: Well, they would -- they would mention -- one of the
6 people - now I wish I could find his name - but he said that he was
7 stopped and then -- and that the -- that he saw armed men on the tractor
8 two days previously. I think he was the -- I think his name was Cepanovic
9 from Pozar, but my memory may not be precise. Then, for example, the
10 sister of these two Jukic brothers, she said that somebody shot at their
11 house a few nights before, and because they had children, they didn't feel
12 it was safe --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but they were still then speaking for
15 THE WITNESS: -- to stay.
16 JUDGE ORIE: What I'm trying to find out is what they said exactly
17 as far as the general feeling of insecurity of others was concerned. What
18 did they tell you? Because you're saying they were not talking just about
19 themselves but they were also talking about others.
20 THE WITNESS: Yes. They would say that -- because people were
21 stopped and because they've been -- there have been shooting incidents at
22 their houses, they felt that they could not stay. And they were afraid,
23 especially, you know, after dark. And there was --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: I spoke to an elderly man who was stopped with -- he
1 was travelling with, I think, another relative, female relative, and they
2 were stopped and they were taken to Glodjane, if I recall right. And he
3 claimed -- he was not mistreated or anything, but he and his female cousin
4 were kept there for a couple of hours and then they were released. And
5 that was -- that was what made him decide that it was safer, at least for
6 a while -- I understood that people thought that that would be for a
7 while, that they would be -- for a short while.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The answer is still about what people told you
9 why they felt unsafe?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
13 MR. RE: Can the sixth page of the current exhibit please be
15 Q. Did you -- I think your diary records you speaking to someone
16 called Uros Labovic.
17 A. Uros Labovic.
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did you -- was he one of the people that you spoke to in that cafe
21 in Decane?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And what did he tell you -- sorry, first of all, where was he
25 A. I don't recall. He was from one of those villages, but I can't
1 recall now whether it was Papracane or Pozar or it was -- or Ljubarda. It
2 was one of the villages from that area.
3 Q. Was he a Serb?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What did he tell you?
6 A. Could I refer to --
7 Q. Of course.
8 A. -- to my notes. I'm sorry, I'm getting a bit tired.
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Re, can you refer to us to the right page in
10 the original?
11 MR. RE: I think I am.
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Is that the original?
13 MR. RE: Of the original.
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: That would be a help for the witness.
15 MR. RE: That might be a little difficult at this point.
16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I just mean to make it a little easier for the
18 I mean the witness then could see it on the screen in her original
19 handwriting. That would help her.
20 MR. RE: It may, but she has a copy of them in her hands there.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: A copy of which she has to find the right page,
22 doesn't she. This is my point.
23 MR. RE: I agree entirely. Ideally I would have the two of them
24 sorted together.
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: If you would have the ERN number, that would be
1 fine, too. Then we could find it.
2 MR. RE: It may assist. I think it's -- I think it's -- it bears
3 the ERN number is stamped in red, of U0030259.
4 Q. Ms. Andjelkovic, would that number help you?
5 A. Yes, it would, because I seem to have an original that is not full
6 and that doesn't have all the things that are in the translation. So I
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I mean we could show that on the screen, ERN
9 number U0030259. I have it on the screen now, but -- yes, that's it.
10 That would be the one.
11 Does that help you?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, although -- right.
13 MR. RE: Maybe the next page would help.
14 THE WITNESS: Yeah, if you would ...
15 MR. RE: 0260.
16 THE WITNESS: Ah, right. There it is.
17 MR. RE:
18 Q. Does that help your recollection --
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. -- of speaking to Uros Labovic?
21 A. Yes. Mr. Labovic was talking about the insecurity, and then also
22 word spread that nobody knows what happened to a number of elderly people
23 who have left -- who were left behind in villages.
24 Q. Elderly people of what ethnicity?
25 A. Elderly Serbs.
1 MR. RE: If we could have the English translation back on the
2 screen for a moment.
3 Q. At the top it says: "Did people ever return to Babaloc, Milovic,
4 Djurkovic," et cetera. Is that the correct one?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Now, it says: "19th of April the KLA controlled the
7 Decane-Djakovica road. On the 20th of April the refugees are returning to
8 Babaloc? 21 April refugees in Babaloc visit from UNHCR. 22 April, visit
9 of the HCR/Pristina is scheduled."
10 What's all that about?
11 A. That's what we were trying at HLC, we were trying to establish the
12 chronology of events and information that we were receiving from different
13 sources, whether it was in the news or whether through the people that I
14 interviewed or some of my colleagues or, indeed, information from other
15 organisations, such as the UNHCR.
16 Q. The entry: "19th of April, the KLA controls the Decane-Djakovica
17 road," what's the source of your information for that?
18 A. That is what -- okay. There were two sources of information. One
19 was in the news and the other one was it seemed that that weekend -- that
20 that was the weekend where most people fled, or immediately after that,
21 fled the villages and went to Decane.
22 Q. What you've written is quite precise. "The KLA controls the
23 Decane-Djakovica road." Why did you write that precise piece of
25 A. This was general knowledge. It was what people were talking
2 Q. Which people?
3 A. People in the villages.
4 Q. People of which ethnicity?
5 A. And --
6 Q. When you say "general knowledge," you mean it was what people were
7 telling you, what you were hearing on the radio, or what?
8 A. What we were hearing on the radio and also what some people would
10 Q. And which people are you referring to when you say --
11 A. I'm referring to ethnic Serbs who lived in these -- in that
12 general area, in rural area.
13 Q. And the next one, where it says: "The refugees are referring to
14 Babaloc" --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, before we continue here, the witness told us
16 that there were two sources; the first was the press and the second one,
17 she said it was about the 19th of April, it's immediately after that that
18 the people started -- what did she exactly say? Let me try to find it.
19 One was the news, and the other was: "it seems that that weekend that was
20 the weekend where most people fled." So there one part is source and the
21 other one is -- has got nothing to do with source.
22 Now, the type of knowledge you need to come to a conclusion that
23 the KLA controls the Decane-Djakovica road, that's a rather complex
24 conclusion. Therefore, if you do not further explore that, then it
25 sounds -- and perhaps I could ask you. I'm not blaming you for anything
1 at all, but this Chamber, of course, has the duty to see exactly what you
2 observed, what others observed. It sounds that -- as if you had -- from
3 what you heard from people, from what you read in the newspapers, that
4 without knowing exactly on what basis people would come to a conclusion
5 that the KLA was controlling a road, which is a -- well, you need to know
6 exactly who is on that road, who is not on that road, how do you control
7 the road; that this was what -- was rumour that spread around that KLA
8 controlled that road. Is it anything more, anything specific that you
9 said? That: "People were telling me that on that road, which is 20
10 kilometres long, every 2 kilometres they have a" -- whatever.
11 I mean, I'm seeking to find out whether you had any specific
12 knowledge, either by observing yourself or specific knowledge obtained
13 from others, that would explain, whether true or not, but would explain
14 why everyone was thinking that the KLA was in control of that road. Could
15 you give us such specifics?
16 THE WITNESS: Yes. I can't say that I have such specifics. This
17 is what I heard from people in the area.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And without knowing exactly what these people
19 had available as specifics on which they --
20 THE WITNESS: No, not really. Not really.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 THE WITNESS: The only thing that was for certain was that they
23 fled their villages and they were in Decane.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: That's what I can say.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. That's -- you met them there --
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- and they told you that they had fled their
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, having clarified this issue, perhaps you
7 could keep this in the back of your mind when, perhaps, dealing with the
8 other events that are listed here; first of all, to find out whether
9 there's any specific knowledge; if not, then to -- well, then that's at
10 least clear.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. Who are the refugees you are referring to? In the next line it
14 says: "The refugees are returning to Babaloc."
15 A. "The refugees from -- returning to Babaloc," that refers to people
16 who were accommodated at the little settlement that was built by UNHCR,
17 and they were mostly people from Albanian, ethnic Serbs and Montenegrins
18 from Albanian.
19 Q. What were they doing there?
20 A. They sought refuge, I think, when there were disturbances in
21 Albanian, like, a year or two previously. I don't quite remember whether
22 it was in 1996 or 1997.
23 Q. All right.
24 MR. RE: If we could just go down the page, please, scroll down.
25 Q. There are some names there that say: "Kidnapped Serbs:
1 Slobodan Radosevic, Milos Radunovic, Milica Radunovic, Milovan Vlahovic,
2 Milka Vlahovic, Dara Vujosevic, Vukosava Vujosevic, Branko Stanatovic."
3 A. It should say I think Stematovic.
4 Q. Stematovic --
5 A. I think.
6 Q. Thank you. Why did you write that there? What was the source of
7 your information? What were you told, and by whom?
8 A. This was a summary of the names that I got from some of the people
9 that I interviewed and another colleague of mine from -- she also got -- I
10 think she interviewed Vlahovic family or their daughter.
11 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Harvey.
13 MR. HARVEY: Please excuse this unusual interruption on my part,
14 but I'm having a little difficulty following exactly where this comes from
15 in the original notebook, and I don't have the language capacity to follow
16 it. But I am looking at the original notebook at U0030260 and where that
17 overlaps with 0259, and for some reason this whole section appears to be
18 missing and I'm not sure, therefore, whether what we have had photocopied
19 for us in the original notebook form is, in fact, the page sequence of
20 what the witness has in front of her in her original notebook. If not,
21 then there's something very confusing in what we have here in front of us.
22 I don't know if that can be called up on your screens so that you can
23 see the difficulty I'm having.
24 JUDGE ORIE: What, actually, you're doing, you're trying to find
25 the list of names and you can't find them on these pages.
1 MR. HARVEY: That's --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, could help us out, because one would expect a
3 page almost exclusively of dates, names, years of birth -- could you guide
4 us? Where --
5 MR. RE: I'll certainly try.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. Ms. Andjelkovic, can you look in your notebook there, or the copy
9 of your notebook. Where in it are the names of the kidnapped Serbs noted?
10 In English it appears directly after the evidence you just gave us about
11 meeting Mr. Jovo Slava -- sorry, about the road and the refugees and so
13 A. I shall try and find it for you, although to me it also seems that
14 the copy that I have got is not all that was -- is not all the notebooks.
15 So I really don't know whether they were -- I'll try to find it for you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask you, the copy you've got in front of you,
17 is that just a copy of the original or do there also appear some kind of
18 long-type numbers on the pages --
19 THE WITNESS: There are -- there are long numbers on the pages as
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could you tell us the -- we just discussed
22 what happened on the 19th of April, 20th of April, return of refugees, et
23 cetera. Could you tell us on what page you exactly find that, and then
24 referring to the stamped number, which is a number --
25 THE WITNESS: I shall try, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. RE: I think I've found it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's--
4 MR. RE: I think it's 003027 -- sorry, U0030273 and 274.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, I will try to find that.
6 THE WITNESS: I don't have that, Your Honour, at all, in -- in the
7 copy that I have got.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Would you mind perhaps to give the page --
9 have you found that, the 19th of April, et cetera, references?
10 MR. RE: We actually have the originals in court here as well as
11 photocopies, if it may assist.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but what we're trying to do is to find out where
13 the -- 0273. Yes. Just for your information, Ms. Andjelkovic, I see that
14 you had in front of you a bundle of photocopies, starting with stamped ERN
15 number, front page without but seems to be a cover page notepad, and then
16 the first written -- handwritten page, 0030163, so just referring to the
17 last three digits, it goes from 163 up to and including 253. I have not
18 checked whether all the pages are there, but it seems, at first sight,
19 rather complete, covering the range I just mentioned. So then the witness
20 has not the original in front of her you were referring to.
21 Now, Mr. Harvey, just to come back to -- you are led to -- guided
22 to pages 273, 274, I think. I'm just trying to find that. I see the --
23 let me -- I'd like to -- could we have the English version on our
25 Yes. From what I can see at this moment -- could we move up a
1 little bit in the English original? Yes. Now, here, I think, we have
2 the -- identified the problem you are facing, Mr. Harvey, because on the
3 lower part of the original of 273, we find names: The first one with the
4 year of birth 1943; the second one, 60 years. That's -- and that also
5 says that these are -- at least I can recognise more or less the
6 word"Serbs"; I don't know what "kidnapped" is.
7 Now, what we see just above that, we would expect to have one line
8 without dates and then above that a line containing at least 21 and 22;
9 above that, 22 April; above that, a line with 21 April; 20 April. And I
10 cannot find that above the section on kidnapped Serbs, Mr. Re. Therefore,
11 it appears that what is presented as a translation of an original seems to
12 be not a translation of what we find in 273. I'm just referring to the
13 last two -- the last three digits. Can you follow me?
14 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, I'm grateful for your help in at least
15 locating this passage. I'm also certainly not putting myself forward as a
16 handwriting expert, but I'm just wondering whether, in fact, this is in
17 the handwriting of the witness herself.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then let's have now the B/C/S -- let's have
19 the B/C/S version on the screen so the witness can follow.
20 Ms. Andjelkovic, you're totally out of this. We're talking about
21 translations of documents you have provided, and if there's any confusion,
22 you certainly have not, at this point, created any of it.
23 So let's get -- now we have the original. Could you, first of
24 all, perhaps -- yes.
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: If we would go back to the page ending with 259.
1 I think this was the place we originally had before us, and here we also
2 can discuss the question of who wrote the notes, and maybe this would
3 be --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: First one thing. Could you give us an
6 information, if all the notes are from your own hand, or is it from
7 different people? Because I see in the last line, "Border incident" in
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's the bottom of the page.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You can now see it and ask it --
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Page 259.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it's on your screen. I hope it is.
13 THE WITNESS: Yes.
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And this is also in your ...
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could we move a bit further down? There we see the
16 dates, and, I take it, the portions of your notes which was --
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- was part of your answer?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is this what you -- are these your -- is this your
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is my handwriting.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Including the English text at the bottom of
24 that page?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we now move to page 273. That's the page
2 you did not have at your disposal. And perhaps this page, do you
3 recognise this page as being your handwriting?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, except that this page is of -- you have some
5 things are in Cyrillic script --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: -- And some things are in Latin script.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But both written --
9 THE WITNESS: Both written by me.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we please move down so that -- yes.
11 Now, Mr. Re, it seems that in the translation that was given to us
12 on the screen that we jump from page, last three digits, from 259 to 273,
13 and that seems to be the conclusion at this moment.
14 Could you -- perhaps we should take a break and give you an
15 opportunity, unless you have an explanation right away.
16 MR. RE: I do. It's called selective translation. Whoever
17 translated these or put the request in some years ago, when they looked at
18 it, asked for selective passages to be translated, and this just has not
19 reviewed until the last few days.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Was the Defence aware that there presented selected
21 translations with clear references of what pages, because then you would
22 expect the ERN number so and so, it's translated here, and then -- so that
23 it's possible to make a link between the original and the translation? I
24 see everyone nodding no.
25 Mr. Emmerson, you're the first one. Mr. Guy-Smith. And since Mr.
1 Harvey has raised the issue, I take it that he would join this choir of
3 MR. EMMERSON: I think Your Honour will recall that, in fact,
4 these are the very documents that were only disclosed last Wednesday
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. EMMERSON: So they're documents we have been requesting
8 translations of, but when they finally came, there was no explanation that
9 they were anything other than a complete document. In fact, this is the
10 first we've heard of it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. RE: If I can say this: From the Prosecution viewpoint, this
13 information -- I didn't speak to the witness myself until shortly before
14 -- several hours before court today.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. RE: I was told earlier today that there was selective
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. RE: I just forgot to tell the Defence. I am going, to an
20 extent, blind, as it may be fairly obvious, through these things. I
21 haven't had a chance to compare the originals with those which I'm taking
22 her to. It's an unfortunate situation. Normally you would spend a long
23 time preparing a witness like this.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. RE: We just haven't been able to.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. RE: I can only apologise to my colleagues in the court for
3 this oversight, but there's simply nothing I can do about it at this
4 point. I mean, if the Defence requires an adjournment, I certainly don't
5 oppose it in relation to this witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any way of indicating on the e-court whether
7 something is a translation or selective translation? Because I see on the
8 source attachments, original, and then the ET and a number and then it's
9 translation and the number is the same. Is there any -- I mean, how could
10 possibly the Defence find out in any other way, or is it -- I mean, you
11 would expect that if parts are cut out, that you would find something like
12 a line or something like that.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 [Trial Chamber confers].
15 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Andjelkovic, first of all, I apologise for you
16 being bothered with a lot of matters which you're not the source of in any
17 way. You said a couple of times that you're a bit tired as well. I
18 suggest that we take a break. I hope that it would help you, and then
19 finish your testimony in-chief after that break. We certainly won't go
20 anywhere beyond 7.00.
21 The Chamber will also consider during the break a few procedural
22 matters, among them this one. I do understand that if you would have
23 thoroughly investigated all of the numbering, that you would have found
24 out that not for all of the original pages there is an English translation
25 page. At the same time, I immediately add to that that if you put a
1 translation on one page, text which originates from two entirely different
2 pages, that the puzzle is not made the easiest one. At least it's good
3 that we have clarified what we have in front of us.
4 Yes, Mr. Harvey.
5 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, there is one other difficulty that is
6 created by this, and of course in no way is the witness to blame for this.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. HARVEY: But what follows is that what's been presented by the
9 Prosecution in what we thought was being an orderly date form- and we saw
10 those dates a little while ago, the late April dates, the last of which I
11 think was the 23rd or 24th of April- it now appears to be a chunk of
12 information which this witness received as a human rights monitor, looking
13 into what had happened or what was believed or suspected to have happened
14 to some Serbs in an area where suddenly this word "kidnapped" arises. Are
15 these kidnaps now placed at the end of April or are they at some later
16 stage in the notebook, somewhere in the middle of May? That, of course,
17 is now -- because of these pages being out of order, the whole narrative
18 now becomes suspect.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that chronology is not without
20 relevance and importance for you and that -- I take it that if you'd find
21 perhaps a couple of minutes during the break to see how, together with Mr.
22 Re, or how Mr. Re would, perhaps with your cooperation, assist the Chamber
23 in not being confused any more on these matters.
24 We will adjourn. We'll resume at five minutes past 6.00.
25 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 6.04 p.m.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest to the parties that we'll now continue the
3 examination of the witness and that we reserve the last ten minutes,
4 approximately, for some procedural issues, including the information we
5 just received, and try to finish that within ten minutes.
6 Mr. Re.
7 MR. RE: Your Honour, as may become apparent, the Prosecution does
8 have a difficulty at the moment in completing this witness' evidence for
9 the issues which have become apparent during the last hour or so, and I
10 don't think that I could do justice to the Prosecution's case as it
11 concerns this witness if I -- if the case -- if the witness continues and
12 is completed in-chief tonight.
13 In that respect, I regretfully would have to seek an adjournment
14 of the witness' evidence in-chief to allow us to resolve the issue with
15 the diaries and the translation --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. RE: -- and maybe to complete it at a later stage.
18 JUDGE ORIE: May I first then ask you the following question:
19 Again, you are the innocent victim of what happens here, that is,
20 procedure; I really feel sorry for you.
21 Mr. Re, does that mean that -- I take it that in preparing the
22 examination-in-chief, that you had all relevant pages you wanted to touch
23 upon, ready in both languages, isn't it?
24 MR. RE: No. Frankly, no. That's the difficulty. The difficulty
25 is I am faced with a difficulty in -- because of the calling the witnesses
1 in the order and in a compressed manner and having to move them around, we
2 have not been able to prepare this witness and the one who was proposed to
3 be number 1 in the way in which we should have been able to prepare if we
4 were properly to do justice as the case as pleaded. We have found this
5 difficulty with crime base witnesses who are -- we have one here who's
6 ready to testify tomorrow morning and another one who will be here
7 tomorrow night, ready to testify the next day.
8 With this particular type of witness, we have a much greater
9 difficulty because we're trying to cover general material. And it
10 appears, as I found out a little earlier today, that selective
11 translations were made, and I just have not had a chance to compare the
12 original with the -- the original -- the Serbian original with what we had
13 selected and what has gone into e-court. I was not aware of that until
14 earlier. I can't -- as I've said last week, our systems are very much
15 imperfect. There is very little I can do about it at ten past 6.00
16 tonight to rectify the situation.
17 JUDGE ORIE: What you're saying you have got no table on the
18 English pages to give at least an opportunity to, if need be, to consult
19 the B/C/S pages as well.
20 MR. RE: No.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I mean, we were able to find them, but it took us
22 quite a lot of effort to find the one page. What would then your
23 suggestion be? When do you think you could overcome these difficulties?
24 MR. RE: Well, it -- I don't know. It requires us to go back and
25 to examine the diaries.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, but let me be very practical. Of course I
2 do understand that it takes you a while. Is it your suggestion that we
3 would now interrupt the examination-in-chief of this witness to tell her
4 that we could not continue within a couple of days, and therefore that she
5 would be free to go home and ask her to come back when you are fully
6 prepared? Is that your suggestion? I mean, I see that later on we would
7 have problems with cross-examination anyhow. It's not a matter of one or
8 two days, from what I feel at this moment.
9 Is that a correct presumption, Mr. Emmerson?
10 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I have two observations, if I may.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. EMMERSON: I --
13 JUDGE ORIE: No. I was asking Mr. Re what his suggestions were,
14 and then I said if you say that fits in well where we are at this moment.
15 I will allow you to --
16 MR. EMMERSON: I would be happy to cross-examine tomorrow on the
17 basis of the passages that the Prosecution have chosen to put in as
18 relevant passages.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.
20 Mr. Re, I now return to you. Would it be your suggestion that
21 we -- with, of course, full apologies then for this witness, to ask her to
22 come back at a later stage. Of course, we first have to find out
23 whether -- what the Defence's position would be on that, but is that your
25 MR. RE: Yes. I wouldn't be in a position to do it tomorrow, to
1 adjourn now --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Not the day after tomorrow?
3 MR. RE: No.
4 JUDGE ORIE: So we could not possibly ask the witness to stay here
5 for ages and -- okay.
6 So the suggestion is that we adjourn, that the witness would
7 return home and would then come back. But before -- and I don't know
8 whether it's appropriate to discuss this in the presence of the witness.
9 Ms. Andjelkovic, we are at this moment, as you may have noticed,
10 facing major problems in, I would say, the logistics of the preparation of
11 your testimony, and I'm not going to repeat it for the fifth time, but
12 you're fully not in any way responsible for what happened.
13 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to discuss with the parties how to proceed.
15 They might want to comment on certain matters which I would consider not
16 to be appropriate, you to be present there to hear all this.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Either be pleased or confused or whatever it would
19 be, to resolve. So therefore I suggest that you leave the courtroom for a
20 moment and that we discuss how to proceed, and of course we'll inform you
21 immediately once a decision has been made in this respect.
22 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please follow Madam Usher.
24 [The witness stands down]
25 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber would first like to hear from the Defence
2 how they respond to the suggestion made by the Prosecution.
3 Mr. Emmerson. And, of course, we have taken note of the fact that
4 you say you're ready to cross-examine the witness tomorrow. Yes.
5 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, can I put this in its context, because
6 I mentioned earlier on concerns that I have, by and large, about the
7 housekeeping arrangements for this week and the calling of witnesses.
8 Just to recap very briefly. Finally, as a result of specific
9 requests, we got these translations very late last Wednesday night. I
10 indicated then, on Thursday, that we would try to assess their 800 pages
11 of material for relevance, and we managed to reduce it down to the
12 notebook. Since then, resources have been devoted to preparing a detailed
13 admissibility argument and to -- combing through the notebooks for
14 cross-examination material.
15 The Prosecution made their decision to choose these two witnesses
16 first. They then abandoned SST7/28, to call her later on, and this
17 morning apparently Mr. Re knew that these were selective translations and
18 made his choice to continue calling his witness in-chief on the basis of
19 the selective translations as he knew them to be, without notifying either
20 the Trial Chamber or the Defence of the potential problems that that could
21 give rise to, or indeed notifying the Defence that the work that they were
22 doing, which has occupied a very considerable amount of the time since
23 last Wednesday when those notes were received, was for naught, or liable
24 to be for naught, because halfway through, as he must have anticipated, if
25 he's making the application that he now makes, it was an application that
1 he could and should have made before the witness was called.
2 Now, all of that -- I don't wish to be here bashing, if I may say
3 so, the Prosecution. We all know the difficulties under which they
4 labour. But this falls into a pattern. And we're in this position: As a
5 result of the application Mr. Re is now making, he will then propose to
6 shuffle up the witness list, a crime base witness for tomorrow, for whom
7 we do not have proofing notes and whose cross-examination has not been
8 fully prepared and in respect of whom material has not been uploaded onto
9 the datebase because we've all been working on the basis that these very
10 difficult and voluminous witnesses were the first two witnesses to deal
12 And so the situation we find ourselves is -- I'm in Your Honours'
13 hands as to how you respond to Mr. Re's application. It is a surprising
14 state of affairs that it should be made in this way at this time, in light
15 of the way he himself has chosen to conduct it up until now, but there it
17 What I inevitably have to say to you is that the consequence will
18 be that any witness he calls tomorrow will only be capable of being
19 cross-examined the following day, because we will need to prepare the
20 cross-examination overnight and to upload material onto the database, and
21 we don't even have the proofing notes for the witness. We have half of
22 the proofing notes for this witness but not the other half and not the
23 critical half.
24 So the situation which I am most anxious to avoid is that this
25 type of pattern should now become ossified into a procedure for this
1 trial. That was the reason why I wrote on the 5th of February the
2 proposals for the organised exchange between the parties of material in
3 preparation for viva voce witnesses, and I make it absolutely clear that
4 we would respectfully submit that it is unfair to expect the Defence to
5 cross-examine a witness who they have not had at least two clear days'
6 notice of when it is they're likely to be called to give evidence and the
7 material they need to cross-examine on.
8 Apart from anything else, that would be the position with any
9 preparation of a cross-examination. But with the additional complication
10 of the necessity for 24 hours' notice to upload material onto the e-court
11 system, it's not merely a forensic necessity for counsel; it's a technical
12 necessity for the efficient management of this trial.
13 And so the reality is that whichever way you look at it, the
14 Prosecution has had four witnesses in -- its first four witnesses it
15 proposed to call, Peter Boukaert, Colonel Crosland, SST7/28, and now this
16 witness. The first three have now all been abandoned whilst work was
17 being done to prepare them, and now it's proposed that this one be
18 abandoned mid-flow. It's entirely a matter for Your Honours how to
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.
21 Any of the other counsel would like to add something to what has
22 been said?
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think it's been well put, and I don't see any
24 need to go further at this time.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
1 Mr. Harvey.
2 MR. HARVEY: I'm not one to flog a dead horse either, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Mr. Re, the Chamber will have to decide on whether we'll tell the
5 Defence that as soon as they're ready and as soon as you've finished your
6 examination-in-chief, that they can cross-examine the witness, which is
7 offered by the Defence. That's one option.
8 The other option is the one you suggested. You said that -- and
9 let me try to find the words exactly. Yes. Let me just find your words.
11 You said that you're faced with a difficulty, and you said: "We
12 have not been able to prepare this witness and the one who was proposed to
13 be number 1 in the way that we should have been able to prepare if we were
14 properly to do justice as the case -- to the case as pleaded."
15 Isn't it true that much of the confusion could have been prevented
16 by you telling us at an early stage -- I mean, we have discussed over the
17 last couple of days that new notebooks would come in, new material would
18 come, which is not translated, and the Defence claims that they are
19 entitled to have full translation of that material in order to prepare.
20 Now, we see here that large portions are not translated. You were
21 aware of that. We spent half an hour on trying to find out exactly what
22 the witness had in her hands, what exactly the problem was, and I said,
23 "Could you respond?" And you said: "Well, selective translation." You
24 could have also jumped up in the very beginning when we started dealing
25 with these issues and say: I can immediately give you an explanation. I
1 failed to inform you; I failed to inform the Defence.
2 So we are finding ourselves in a situation where we'd like to know
3 what you exactly meant by saying: "If we were properly to do justice the
4 case as pleaded." These are great words for what seems to be insufficient
5 preparation. Could you please tell us exactly what happened? Also,
6 keeping in mind the course of the examination-in-chief as it went on until
7 now. Certainly you'll remember that at a certain moment, quite a number
8 of questions of what happened on the 19th of April finally came back to:
9 "This is what everyone said and what we read in the newspaper."
10 So I'm also wondering what we could expect if we have not these
11 kind of problems, because that was just before we faced these problems.
12 But it is an experience you had, the Chamber had, and the Defence had.
13 So, therefore, I'm wondering what exactly you meant when you are talking
14 about properly to do justice to the case as pleaded. I mean, what would
15 happen if we would not follow your suggestion? Not in practical terms,
16 but what would be -- and that's what you suggest. What would be the
18 MR. RE: The damage is that the Prosecution would not be able, in
19 the time available, to get out the evidence in the best way for the -- as
20 recorded in the witness' notes.
21 Now, of course, I take on board Your Honour's criticism of my
22 neglecting to mention earlier that there was a selective translation, and
23 I -- the only thing I can say is I just forgot. It may sound strange to
24 you, but with the pressures of getting this together, I just simply
25 forgot. And Ms. Gustafson, as you may have noticed, has been sitting with
1 me as I'm going through this blind, not having a chance to take the
2 witness through it or go through the diaries before, trying to find them
3 for me; and I just completely forgot that it had been mentioned to me
4 earlier in the day that they weren't fully done. I just forgot.
5 Otherwise, I would have jumped up earlier. I mean, it's obvious, I just
6 forgot until suddenly it became obvious, Oh, this is what was going on,
7 it's in the back of my mind. Now, that has to do with a lot of things and
8 the number of things we've been trying to do in getting the trial
10 One of the things here is in this particular Prosecution we only
11 have three lawyers at the moment who can come to court and take witnesses;
12 only two of them can effectively do it at the moment, that's me and
13 Mr. Di Fazio. So the entire burden of this case, a war crimes case, has
14 been placed on the shoulders of myself and Mr. Di Fazio in terms of
15 proofing witnesses, preparing them, and getting them to court and going
16 through it. We have staffing problems in the OTP. Now -- I mean, that's
17 of no concern to the Defence. The problems are we do not have enough
18 lawyers on this case who can go to court and present the evidence.
19 That is why I was unprepared. And all I can do is apologise to
20 the Trial Chamber and my colleagues for being unprepared with this
21 particular witness, who I didn't get to speak to until about 11.30 this
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. RE: That's why I'm unprepared, which is why I can't place
25 before the Trial Chamber everything I wish to.
1 Mr. Di Fazio is proofing another witness, the witness who we
2 propose to call tomorrow or the day after. Then I'll have to do the next
3 one, and so on. Hopefully we'll get another lawyer soon.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Re, I think you spent most of your words not
5 on the consequences of the decision to be taken by this Chamber but on
6 what caused the present situation. That's exactly one of the issues
7 raised by Mr. Emmerson, who said, Are we going to experience this every
8 day? Well, I'm translating your words. These are two distinct issues.
9 Under-staffing of the OTP is something that would certainly
10 need -- I mean, the consequence of that for this trial would certainly
11 need more attention under those circumstances, but our first decision we
12 have to take is how to proceed with a witness who is now waiting outside
13 this courtroom. And that was my first and, I would say, my primary
14 question to you. In view of the experience we had until now during the
15 examination-in-chief, what exactly would be the damage? And you told us,
16 Well, we couldn't elicit the evidence as we would wish. That's, of
17 course, a very general answer. And this Chamber is not in a position to
18 forecast how important this witness is for your case, what would happen,
19 whether we could say, Let's leave it for the time being as it is, and if
20 there's -- I mean, it's clear and it's on the record now that you are not
21 sufficiently prepared to hear the evidence of the witness, which would
22 not, under all circumstances, bar you from, at a later stage, applying for
23 recalling her, not to revisit the issues dealt with at this moment but
24 because major portions of the evidence not being elicited for the reasons
25 you just told us.
1 I'm not -- I'm not saying that -- in the limited time you have
2 that it would be an attractive option ever to apply for recalling the
3 witness to -- and it would cause all kinds of problems as well.
4 But I'd like to know from the Defence, is that considered -- I'm
5 not saying -- of course, we'd have to hear the reasons. We would be,
6 then, further in the case. We would have to consider what it adds to the
7 evidence already elicited. But if you would consider this to be a
8 fundamentally inappropriate and prohibited route, under all circumstances,
9 for the Prosecution to, at a later stage, apply and say, We'd like to --
10 with then full information, We'd like to complete, not to change the
11 testimony given until then, but to explore other areas as well which we
12 have not come to at this moment. Would that fundamentally unacceptable
13 for the Defence?
14 MR. EMMERSON: I hope it doesn't sound as though I'm in any way
15 avoiding Your Honour's question --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. EMMERSON: -- but with respect, that is an issue which can only
18 really be addressed as and when any application to recall is made.
19 Generally, I would be -- I'm not entirely in favour of having to
20 cross-examine a witness twice, or rather, cross-examining the witness
21 knowing that the Prosecution might not just re-examine but recall in chief
22 later on other material which wasn't available to me at the time. It's
23 not an ideal situation to be in.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Certainly not.
25 MR. EMMERSON: But I would never say never. It would obviously be
1 a matter for Your Honours to consider if and when such an application was
2 made. But please don't assume that I would concede such an application,
3 because I most certainly am not suggesting that that is the position.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No.
5 MR. EMMERSON: We're in the situation we're in because a choice
6 was made by the Prosecution as to how to open the evidence in this case.
7 We're in this position because the Prosecution chose not to begin with
8 crime base witnesses, who they say they can prepare and put on the witness
9 stand with no difficulty.
10 I made it very clear to Mr. Re weeks ago that these were difficult
11 witnesses to handle, with complex questions of potential relevance and
12 admissibility and issues concerning the way in which their evidence was to
13 be properly prepared. I suggested to him weeks ago that if they were
14 going to be called first, the sensible thing would be for him to take
15 fresh statements from them in a proper form.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, the Chamber is not -- of course, I do
17 understand that without being informed all the details of advice you have
18 given to Mr. Re, that you raised the issue at an earlier stage. Let's
19 leave it at that and not go into further detail on matters which are not
20 appropriate, perhaps, for the Chamber to hear.
21 Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, if I might. I believe that earlier in these
23 proceedings I indicated I had some concerns just generally about the
24 disclosure practices that were existing. I think it's important to note
25 that the statement of this witness, which was taken in 2002, was included
1 in the supporting materials and the very notebooks that are in question
2 have been in the knowledge of the Prosecutor's Office for some period of
4 But above that and beyond that, the situation that we're in right
5 now is: Had Mr. Harvey not stood up with a confusion that existed - I'm
6 thankful for that - had he not stood up, Mr. Re would have completed his
7 examination and we would have been cross-examining tomorrow. That's what
8 would have occurred. So I fail to see yet, based upon the assertions made
9 by Mr. Re and the questions asked by the Chamber, how in fact there would
10 be any detriment to him. I just don't see it at this point in time. I
11 don't think he would have taken a different position than he'd taken
13 You asked a question with regard to the issue of recalling a
14 witness, and in that regard I -- once again, I'll join the remarks made by
15 Mr. Emmerson. I wouldn't know until it came up. I find it an extremely
16 unattractive way of proceeding with a trial for many, many reasons.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's perfectly clear to me as well, but I'm
18 exploring the whole range of --
19 Mr. Harvey.
20 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, there are times when I think it's a good
21 thing that I stood up and there are times when I think perhaps I should
22 just have shut up and sat down. It looked good at the time and I'm sorry
23 that it's led to this level of confusion. I would like to proceed with
24 this witness, and I think whether or not this witness should be allowed to
25 be recalled at another stage is obviously a matter that would have to be
1 kept under review.
2 But quite frankly, speaking as bluntly as I can, I don't think
3 this witness is ever going to add a great deal to the sum total of this
4 Tribunal's understanding of the importance of this case. But for all
5 that, I would move that we get on with this witness and finish her in an
6 expeditious fashion.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 May I -- on the basis of your experience until now, how much time
9 do you think you would need for cross-examination?
10 MR. EMMERSON: On the basis of the evidence that the witness has
11 given so far, not very long. Certainly not much longer than about half an
12 hour, 40 minutes, in my case.
13 JUDGE ORIE: For the other counsel?
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Assuming that I'm not going to go over old ground,
15 I would figure probably not more than 15 minutes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
17 MR. HARVEY: If anything, less than that, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That leaves us with cross-examination to be
19 completed almost in one session.
20 One of the other options that might be available to us as well,
21 Mr. Re, is that where we had already in mind that cross-examination would
22 take place tomorrow anyhow -- you say: "I couldn't possibly continue my
23 examination-in-chief at this moment." You feel that you are -- I'm just
24 exploring all possibilities. What about you finishing your
25 examination-in-chief tomorrow in let's say the first 45 minutes. Then you
1 have an additional period of time to prepare for that and to try to find
2 out what crisis management and damage control, and what all these terms
3 mean today, what you could have achieve until tomorrow. Then give the
4 Defence a break of one hour, one hour and a half, perhaps two hours, and
5 give the Defence an opportunity to cross-examine the witness.
6 Mr. Harvey.
7 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, before Mr. Re responds to that --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. HARVEY: -- a question that raises itself in my mind is that
10 certainly in the jurisdictions in which my colleagues and I practice,
11 recognising that's all different --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. HARVEY: -- once a witness has taken the witness stand, it is
14 not normally permitted for the counsel who calls that witness to
15 communicate with the witness --
16 JUDGE ORIE: No. I certainly would not -- and I think that's the
17 practice in this Tribunal as well. I would say it was merely to give an
18 opportunity to Mr. Re to re-organise his logistics and to find the proper
19 translation pages, not to restart proofing the witness. That's not what I
20 had in mind when I suggested this solution.
21 MR. HARVEY: Thank you for that clarification.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Mr. Re, could you give me your comment on this suggestion.
24 MR. RE: It would certainly help. It may - it may - get us out of
25 this pickle we've got ourselves in - it may. I'd certainly take
1 Your Honour's guidance on this now.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's, then ...
3 [Trial Chamber confers].
4 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will take -- if it would only be one,
5 two, or three minutes to deliberate on the matter, and so everyone is
6 expected to remain in the courtroom.
7 --- Break taken at 6.38 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 6.39 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has considered the situation and decided
10 that we'll proceed as follows: We'll not continue the
11 examination-in-chief today.
12 Mr. Re, tomorrow you will have an opportunity to complete the
13 examination-in-chief in the first hour of the afternoon session. Then the
14 Chamber will be flexible as to how long the break should be from what we
15 understand, and just assuming that we don't get major surprises in terms
16 of what evidence to expect tomorrow, that the Defence teams would,
17 together, finish their cross-examination in certainly not more than two
18 hours. From what I understand, two hours is too much for one session.
19 Therefore, if, tomorrow, you say, Well, one hour and a half will do, then
20 we could have one more session to start at the time the Defence considered
21 it's prepared. So at most you would have approximately one and a half,
22 two hours, to further prepare, to further consider. If you would like to
23 start earlier, that's a possibility as well. Of course, part of it could
24 be prepared today.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: In order to avoid any further confusion, no one
2 should look at the official court calendar, which still says that we're
3 sitting in the morning, but we are sitting in the afternoon, as everyone
4 knows. No, no, no, just to avoid that half of the parties are here at
5 9.00 instead of a quarter past 2.00.
6 We'll proceed in this way tomorrow. I'd like to have the witness
7 called in the courtroom. We'll later then pay attention in private
8 session to the remaining procedural matter, but I'd first like to inform
9 the witness about our decision.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated --
12 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- Ms. Andjelkovic.
14 The Chamber has considered all the options and discussed with the
15 parties. We have decided that we'll proceed in the following way: We'll
16 finish for today. Tomorrow, where it was scheduled that you'd be
17 cross-examined by the Defence, we'll first spend another -- certainly not
18 more than one hour, but at least one short session to finish your
19 examination-in-chief. Then we might have a bit of a longer break and then
20 the Defence counsel will have an opportunity to cross-examine you, and we
21 hope to finish your testimony then tomorrow --
22 THE WITNESS: Right.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- which would avoid that we have to call you back, as
24 the matter stands now. Again, our apologise.
25 I'd like to instruct you not to speak with anyone about the
1 testimony you have given already or testimony still to be given tomorrow.
2 So refrain from speaking to anyone about that. Then you're excused for
3 the moment.
4 Madam Usher, could you please escort Ms. Andjelkovic out of the
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then the matter that remains is the report we
9 received this afternoon, and I'd like to turn into a private session.
10 MR. RE: Your Honour, there is another matter I wish to raise, not
11 necessarily in private session, but about witness orders. I'm happy to
12 raise it now.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we first deal with the rather urgent
14 matter in front of us, and that certainly there will remain a couple of
15 minutes after that.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 554-558 redacted. Private session.
10 [Open session]
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 Mr. Re, you announced that you'd like to raise an issue. Please
14 do so.
15 MR. RE: It's in relation to the order of witnesses which we would
16 propose to call, and I have -- unlike with other matters, I did discuss
17 this with my colleagues from the Defence before court started today at
19 Last week, in the Pre-Trial Conference, I alerted the Chamber to
20 some difficulties we were having with witnesses in this first week, the
21 order and the trial preparation, which meant that we might be asking for
22 some flexibility or some forebearance from the Trial Chamber at least in
23 the first week in terms of the order of witnesses and possibly having to
24 switch them or move to other ones.
25 The situation arose earlier this week when I -- Monday, I think I
1 notified you about - maybe it was Friday; I can't remember now - the
2 proposed first and second witness, asking to switch them.
3 As a result of further speaking to the first witness who was on
4 our list - that's witness 28 - we don't feel we're in a position to call
5 her this week. We would propose, if it's acceptable to the Chamber, to
6 call her at a later stage, several weeks on into the trial, which would
7 give both us and the Defence greater time, of course taking up
8 Mr. Emmerson's words of wisdom here, to prepare for this particular
10 There is one matter of disclosure, and I spoke to the Defence --
11 Defence counsel before court today, and that is there are documents
12 relating to an organisation which we were only able to -- we only
13 identified and disclosed to them, I think it was, today which pertained to
14 these witnesses. Again, it's one of these things about the identification
15 of material in our system and getting it to the Defence in a timely
16 manner, allowing fairness to the Defence and the smooth flow of
18 The result, if we don't call that witness this week, is that we
19 still propose to call the third witness on our list. That witness is
20 here. That's --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Is that witness 38?
22 MR. RE: That's number 38.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. RE: Witness 38 is ready to have her evidence called in
25 chief. Mr. Di Fazio has finished talking to her. The proofing notes are
1 complete. They were disclosed tonight at 22 past 6.00, I'm told, to the
2 Defence counsel. The Prosecution, of course, is entirely aware, entirely
3 understanding, of the difficulties faced with -- faced in terms of
4 cross-examining witnesses and needing all the information. And we -- if
5 there's any embarrassment or difficulty, we certainly don't oppose the
6 Defence asking for the appropriate necessary period to prepare themselves.
7 However, that brings me to the next point, the crux of that; that
8 is, in terms of replacing the first witness, we have someone who would
9 probably be available on Friday but we wouldn't be able to speak to them
10 until Thursday, realistically, and that's witness 19, who's number 29 on
11 the list. Of course, for Thursday we'd be ready to go with the witness
12 who was number 4 on the list. That witness will be arriving in The Hague
13 tomorrow night, and I have --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Your list and the numbering on the list, I never know
15 what -- I have a list in front of me which says "Newest" which gives the
16 witness that was examined today as the first witness on the list. That's
17 the newest version. Could you tell me where this witness is to be found
18 on this list? I can't take always all the lists with me, the old ones.
19 MR. RE: Number 29 on order -- in order is the one we'd propose to
20 call on Friday, if it's convenient.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's witness 19. Yes, I've located that witness.
22 Yes. I take it that the main issue will be -- I take it that you don't
23 take any steps this evening to get this witness in, but at earliest
24 convenience, tomorrow morning. But the issue is not, I would say, whether
25 this Trial Chamber is very flexible on hearing the testimony of Witness A
1 or B; but it's mainly disclosure and time for preparation of
2 cross-examination. Have you discussed it already with Defence counsel?
3 MR. RE: I have. It was one against ten at the time.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Mr. Guy-Smith. If you would allow me. It's 7.00. We have to --
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not going to quibble about what happened
7 earlier with regard to the issue of witnesses. I'll make my position
8 very, very clear and very, very simple. We are not in a position to deal
9 with that particular witness at this time. It is -- he is -- that witness
10 is totally out of order. We have been making preparations in an entirely
11 different fashion. This is creating absolute havoc amongst the Defence
12 preparation, and I very strongly object to the entry of that witness at
13 this time. I really request, in the strongest possible terms that I can,
14 that the Prosecution get their house in order. I have not experienced
15 this kind of disorder in cases before here, and it is very, very difficult
16 to take.
17 JUDGE ORIE: As I said before, I hear strong -- stronger words
18 than usual from the Defence side as far as cooperation is concerned.
19 Anything to be added there, Mr. Emmerson?
20 MR. EMMERSON: I think, if I may, given the time, if there's
21 anything to be added, I'll add it tomorrow. But I'm sure, Your Honour,
22 without the slightest difficulty of imagination, can foresee what the
23 likely response is going to be with all of these witnesses being material,
24 not being disclosed until the very last minute.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, and one of the things the Chamber
1 will do is also to see what information we have about witness 19 at this
2 moment. So to be in a better position to assess and understand.
3 Mr. Harvey, anything you'd like to add?
4 MR. HARVEY: In view of the hour, nothing further.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Re, we'll not decide on the
6 suggestion at this very moment. That means that this week it's scheduled
7 to finish the testimony of the witness Andjelkovic, that the witness 38
8 will be called later this week, and that we'll hear the testimony of that
9 witness. And on your other suggestion, the Chamber notes at this moment
10 that there seems to be rather strong opposition, and we'll not hurry into
11 a decision now but in five minutes.
12 MR. RE: I'm sorry, maybe I didn't make myself clear. The witness
13 I was talking about on Friday would be the -- would be the fourth witness.
14 There is a third witness who is number -- she's not protected, but you
15 never know what people say when they get here.
16 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand.
17 MR. RE: What's her number? Number 4 on the list. She's proposed
18 to be called on Thursday. She'll be here tomorrow tonight. I don't
19 propose to proof her because I interviewed her last month, and I don't
20 think she's got anything more to say.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I can't remember how many on the list. I
22 always get confused because I always think that you're working from a
23 different list than I am. I'm just working on the basis of the last list.
24 MR. RE: The one I have in front of me says witness order; 28 is
25 the first one; Andjelkovic is the second one.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I have a list in front of me which have witness
2 order, 1, 2, 3, 4, the second being 38, the fourth being 28. That's the
3 list I've got in front of me.
4 MR. RE: It's the one after 38. I apologise. I thought it was
5 the one we'd filed I was looking at.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's keep matters short. Whatever is still
7 on our programme for this week, witness 19 is not yet, to say it as simple
8 as I can.
9 With apologies to the interpreters, I would like to adjourn,
10 Mr. Re, unless there is something that really could not wait until
11 tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, in this same courtroom.
12 We'll then adjourn until then.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 7th day of
15 March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.