1 Wednesday, 7 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Before we give you, Mr. Re, an opportunity to continue the
10 examination-in-chief of the witness, I'd like to deal briefly with a few
11 procedural matters.
12 First of all, the Chamber received notice that, I think it was
13 approximately one hour ago, that you had filed a motion to have exhibits
14 added to the exhibit list.
15 Let me first ask: I have not -- it was a courtesy copy that was
16 sent to the Chamber's staff without attachments. First of all, has the
17 Defence received that motion?
18 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see two times nodding yes, affirming
20 Mr. Emmerson.
21 Would you like to respond to it?
22 MR. EMMERSON: I have no objection to those documents being added
23 to the exhibit list.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. The same is true for other counsel? I
25 see again two times nodding yes, which makes it three, so that matter has
1 been then dealt with.
2 I would like to, first of all, give a decision -- well, here it
3 was a decision on what I would call a suggestion or a proposal; that is,
4 your proposal of yesterday, Mr. Re, to move forward the testimony of
5 Witness 19, which was originally scheduled for a later date in this trial,
6 and your suggestion was that we'd hear that witness on this Friday. The
7 Defence objected to the proposal on the grounds that it was not informed
8 on time about the date of Witness 19's testimony, and that it therefore
9 could not properly prepare for that witness.
10 In light of these submissions, the Chamber decides that the
11 Defence would be put at a disadvantage if Witness 19 was to be heard on
12 Friday; and, therefore, the proposal by the Prosecution is rejected.
13 I would like to go into private session for a moment.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 567-568 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 These were, as far as I'm concerned, the procedural issues to be
1 raised at this very moment. So, therefore, we are now ready, I take it --
2 Mr. Re, is the Prosecution ready to call Ms. Andjelkovic to continue the
4 MR. RE: I'm ready subject to the matter of amending the exhibit
5 list. I understand the Defence has indicated they don't propose -- they
6 don't oppose it.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Re, you're perfectly right. The Chamber
9 should have delivered a decision before inviting you to call
10 Ms. Andjelkovic.
11 In view of your request and in view of the fact that the
12 Prosecution does not oppose granting your request, the request is hereby
14 MR. RE: Thank Your Honour.
15 I'd just indicate that in relation to the way I'd propose
16 proceeding is we -- to put this on the record: The Prosecution, last
17 night, delved further into the issues relating to the translation of the
18 diaries. We communicated with the Trial Chamber's legal officer and with
19 Defence counsel last night and this afternoon. What we have discovered,
20 our inquiries have revealed, is that in relation to volume 2, that they
21 were translated in batches and they weren't merged into one document.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Some from the B/C/S; other from the Latin
23 script. Yes.
24 MR. RE: Last night -- very late last night, the translator put
25 them all together and identified them, cross-matched that volume against
1 the ERN of the original.
2 The two translators were working on the other volume, which was
3 volume 1, the first notebook. The problem there is that -- well, it
4 wasn't a problem at the time; it is a problem now. When it was translated
5 in-house, we used someone who was a specialist in Cyrillic to do the
6 Cyrillic, and one someone who was a specialist in Latin writing to do the
7 Latin. It was done years ago, and the two were never put back together
8 until day.
9 They have now been merged together into the one document,
10 identifying against the ERN in the original. And where there are gaps in
11 the translation, the selective translations, the translator has identified
12 those. So we will seek leave or substitute those for whichever ones are
13 in e-court at the moment.
14 There is one further matter I must alert the Trial Chamber to
15 which isn't fully resolved at the moment. The translator informed me, I
16 think it was basically a couple of hours ago, that she had discovered that
17 some of the pages, when they were put into her -- I think we've notified
18 the Chamber and the Defence of this, were put in a -- were not copied
19 in -- all of them, in the correct order and some of them are out of
20 sequence; that is, the original documents were photo -- were copied into
21 the evidence collection but not necessarily in the correct page number.
22 The ERNs are sequential, but the pages are not.
23 I'm attempting -- I think the translator is trying to identify
24 which are out of order at the moment.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I can imagine, Mr. Re, that in view of the concerns
1 expressed by the Defence on chronology, that this is a -- I mean, if it's
2 one page which is not dealt with in the testimony, I can imagine that it
3 would not cause major problems. But if, of course, if the -- it very much
4 depends on how serious the problem is. Is it one page moved to a
5 different place or is it -- and is that clearly visible on the basis of
6 its content? Then I can imagine that we, or at least you and the Defence,
7 could manage and the Trial Chamber could finally manage the matter. But
8 if it is just a matter of throwing them all from the stairs and see which
9 one is first down and then put them in that order, then, of course, we
10 would have a greater problem.
11 MR. RE: I'm told by our case manager, Mr. Smith, that we have
12 disclosed - it was only I'm told, half an hour ago - the re-arranged
13 version in the order in which it actually appears in the notebooks. There
14 was confusion this morning. I think we got both of them from the
15 translator; we did them both ways. But the message was not properly
16 communicated to disclose it. And I think the Defence and the Chambers now
17 have two copies of the second volume; one in the correct order it appears
18 in the original, and the second one in the order it appears in the ERN of
19 the translation.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So the best copy to consult is the one with not
21 subsequent ERN numbers, because subsequent ERN numbers means mixed-up
22 original pages?
23 MR. RE: That's correct, the one with mixed up -- the one with
24 sequential ERNs is mixed-up originals.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Now, as far as translation is concerned, is there a
1 subsequent translation of the copy with the non-subsequent ERN numbers? I
2 mean, the original order.
3 MR. RE: I'm sorry, I don't understand.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If you have two versions, is the version which gives
5 the right chronology, therefore, not reflecting subsequent ERN numbers?
6 Do we have a translation which follows that original order?
7 MR. RE: Yes. That was the one I was referring to a moment ago
8 that we disclosed about -- earlier this afternoon, about half an hour ago.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Any need to comment on that, Mr. Emmerson?
11 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, no. The re-ordered version of what
12 is, in fact, the first notebook - I think Mr. Re said the second - the
13 first notebook was disclosed today --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Mr. Re, first notebook?
16 MR. RE: I agree. Thank you, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. EMMERSON: The second notebook was disclosed late last night.
19 So that the first notebook is disclosed today. The second version of that
20 we understand now to be in chronological order. It was e-mailed at 11
21 minutes past 2.00 this afternoon. And so given that Your Honours have
22 already indicated that there will be sufficient time between
23 examination-in-chief and cross-examination for the Defence to assimilate
24 the order and material, and transfer the references to their notes, then
25 there's no objection so far as we are concerned.
1 May I simply register one very small point. Because of the way
2 this matter has been handled, I hope we will be forgiven during
3 cross-examination for using only the translations rather than being in a
4 position, as Judge Hoepfel indicated would obviously be easier for the
5 witness in principle, of being able with ease, to move between the
6 original and the translation.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. If there would be really need for the
8 witness to consult the original, then they'll find a way out.
9 Yes. I think in modern terminology, this is called a learning
10 moment, isn't it?
11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Maybe just one other matter, which is this: Mr. Re
14 suggested substituting the new translations for the existing exhibit
15 numbers. The only reason I rise to my feet is because we're all aware
16 that the way the transcript works is that there is a direct hyperlink
17 between any reference by the court officer to the Exhibit P1 and the
18 relevant passage that is being used in the course of examination, and the
19 danger of substitution, as opposed to giving fresh exhibit numbers, is
20 that we'll have a different document.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It might be a solution that the MFI number, as
22 we have it now, never changes its status, but that we know exactly what
23 has been tendered. And that we would not then substitute the translation
24 with anything else, but that we get in the right chronology with a proper
25 translation a new exhibit number, and that the other is there to be
1 consulted, if need be, but it's not in evidence.
2 MR. EMMERSON: I think that may be better in the long run, yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: For those who will try to resolve these puzzles at a
4 later stage.
5 Mr. Re, we return to the moment where I said, Are you ready to
6 continue the examination-in-chief of --
7 MR. RE: I am. If I could just explain very briefly how I would
8 propose to conclude this witness' evidence.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. RE: I propose to do it in the following manner:
11 With the now-approved amendments to the exhibit list -- and I say,
12 frankly, the Prosecution should have done it the other way around; we
13 should have started with the "Spotlight" reports, using the incident --
14 the incident reports, which were the source material for the "Spotlight"
15 reports, and having the diaries for the source material if necessary for
16 the witness to refer to. And all I can do is apologise for the confusion
17 and mix-up to my colleagues and the Trial Chamber for what has occurred
19 Having now, as far as -- as much as I can in the available time, I
20 think, rectified the situation, what I would propose to do is to take the
21 witness to the incident reports and ask her to identify which of those are
22 hers, so they're on the record, and take her to the "Spotlight" reports,
23 asking her to identify which parts of the reports relate to her. And with
24 a later witness, I will go into more detail in relation to the "Spotlight"
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's good to know how you intend to proceed, and if
2 there's any objection, I expect the Defence to come with the objection, if
3 you're examining the witness.
4 Then, Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into the
5 courtroom; the witness being Ms. Andjelkovic.
6 MR. RE: Can I also indicate, E-court is, of course, a wonderful
7 technological invention and it works fabulously well for tendering
8 documents. But if witnesses are being shown a voluminous quantity, it may
9 be easier to show them the documents in a folder and refer to the page in
10 e-court. We have prepared a folder of the "Spotlight" reports and the
11 incident reports, which I can distribute to the Bench and to the Defence
12 and to the witness, which may make things smoother and quicker for the
13 witness to go through in the time available.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I must admit that at this very moment, my major
16 concern would be whether the witness sees the same as we have on our
17 screen. That is of some concern. And I think, as a matter of fact,
18 managing the screen is relatively simple. So to the extent possible, I
19 would invite you, Mr. Re, to use the screen, as much as possible, because
20 one thing is for sure, that that's the same everywhere.
21 MR. RE: The only difficulty is the translations aren't in e-court
22 yet, but the incident reports are.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll -- to that extent, we'll work,
24 then, on the basis of hard copies.
25 Good afternoon.
1 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I was not very polite, Ms. Andjelkovic, when you came
3 in and when we just continued our discussions. Apologies for that. Thank
4 you for coming back to the courtroom.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Andjelkovic, you are still bound by the solemn
7 declaration you have given yesterday at the beginning of your testimony.
8 Mr. Re will now continue his examination.
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, please proceed and distribute whatever there
11 is to be distributed.
12 MR. RE: Thank you.
13 WITNESS: MARIJANA ANDJELKOVIC [Resumed]
14 Examination by Mr. Re: [Continued]
15 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Andjelkovic.
16 A. Good afternoon.
17 Q. What I want to do this afternoon is -- yesterday, you referred
18 to -- you gave an amount of evidence about your trips to Kosovo in March
19 and April 1998 as a human rights field worker for the Humanitarian Law
20 Centre in Belgrade. You told the Trial Chamber that you had interviewed
21 various people, mainly ethnic Serbs, on the ground in various villages.
22 You had put your observations into notebooks, and the notebooks you typed
23 into reports, and the reports later were used in publications of the
24 Humanitarian Law Centre.
25 Since you were here last night, we have - that is, the
1 Prosecution - has located a number of incident reports provided by the
2 Humanitarian Law Centre. What I would like you to do is if I could hand
3 you this folder, and the folder contains the English translations of your
4 diaries, volumes 1 and 2, "Spotlight" reports number 26 and 27, and the
5 incident reports. I've opened up the page of the incident report and I
6 just want you, while I'm handing the others around the courtroom, to have
7 a look through those incident reports and, just to yourself, identify any
8 which you may have had a hand in, but not aloud just yet because I'll be
9 doing something administratively.
10 MR. RE: While the witness is looking at that, could these,
11 please, be distributed around the court to the Bench and to the Defence.
12 Q. Ms. Andjelkovic, I'll just give you some yellow stickers or little
13 post-it notes, which may assist you in marking any documents which are
15 A. Right.
16 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honours, before Mr. Re continues, from a brief
17 perusal of the incident reports contained in the file, which of course
18 isn't paginated so I'm not in a position to refer you to particular pages,
19 but you will find that there are, roughly halfway through, there's a page
20 which says: "This job requires more memory than is available in this
21 printer." And what's happened is that the report that immediately
22 precedes that --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Just quickly try to guide us. It's not easy, I do
24 understand, but is it in the first half, second half?
25 MR. EMMERSON: It's -- if I find the -- if I -- yes, if I -- it's
1 about -- well, do Your Honours see that the green sheets separate the
2 different sections?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. EMMERSON: The very final section of the "Spotlight" reports.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Final section, yes.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Of those printed. Then Your Honour has the
7 dividing line exactly, and then before that, between that and the
8 immediately preceding green sheet, are the incident reports.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. EMMERSON: And I say roughly about between a quarter and a
11 third of the way in, you will find an incident report which has a
12 reference number, but it's probably not the easiest thing to find. They
13 all have the same appearance. But you may find the page that looks like
14 this and a page following it that looks like this.
15 Now, I don't know how widespread the problem may be, but the paper
16 copy is not, at least in that respect --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I see the page where in the middle it appears:
18 "The job requires more memory than is available. Try one or more of the
19 following and print again."
20 MR. EMMERSON: If Your Honour sees the page before, the report
21 before is cut in half, the version that we have.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It is a statement -- yes, the page contains a
24 MR. EMMERSON: Which stops mid-sentence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. EMMERSON: We obviously have -- the e-court system and the
2 Defence have the full statement. It may be that there are other documents
3 in this bundle for which that problem arises; I don't know.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. RE: It's being rectified as we speak. You might have noticed
6 that the case manager came in late with all of these.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. RE: It wasn't properly checked before we brought it in. New
9 copies of this, with the ERNs on the top, will be here very, very shortly.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let us see. We at least know there are some pages
11 which contain rather information, and any whether relevant information for
12 this case.
13 Again, Ms. Andjelkovic, you're again a bit of a victim of these
14 technical problems; but Mr. Re will ask you, I take it, whether you were
15 able to find what he asked you to find.
16 MR. RE:
17 Q. Ms. Andjelkovic, have you had a chance to go through and -- all I
18 want you to do at the moment - I can see you've got some yellow stickers
19 on the documents in front of you - I'd just wish for you to, first of all,
20 tell the Court the first one. By incident report, there should be a
21 date -- sorry, excuse me.
22 To properly lay the foundation here, I'll go back. Yesterday, you
23 referred in your evidence to incident -- to reports written as a result of
24 your investigations in the field. Are these the reports that you and your
25 colleagues typed up after interviewing the people in the field?
1 A. Yes. They pretty much look like this, except I have to say I
2 don't remember this -- the logo, but that's the only change. Everything
3 else is pretty much the same. This was the form.
4 Q. They're in English. Did you write them in English at the time?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. The first one in this bundle, which has an ERN of K0577171 in the
7 copy I have, but not the copy you have, has a date of report of the 27th
8 [Realtime transcript read in error "22nd"] of April, 1998.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is that one which you took?
11 A. Yes, sir, it is.
12 Q. What's the next one?
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Is it the 22nd or the 27th?
14 MR. RE: The.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: What did you say?
16 MR. RE: The 27th.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: 27.
18 JUDGE ORIE: For the record, it was the 22nd. I think the
19 confusion might come from that the report seems to bare the date of the
20 is 27th, and the incident is described as taking place on the 22nd.
21 Your microphone, please.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Just for the sake of completeness, Your Honours we
23 will see that there is a list of information; one of which is witness, and
24 the date of interview appears under that as the 25th. So this document
25 refers to an interview on the 25th about an incident on the 22nd which is
1 filed in a report on the 27th. That's the pattern that follows through.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear.
3 Mr. Re, please proceed.
4 Mr. Re, if you're referring to documents, you have now identified
5 it by the date of the document, being the 27th of April; the date of the
6 incident being the 22nd of April -- 22nd of April. From what I see the
7 next one relates -- is a document dated the 22nd of April, and the
8 incident referred to is also the 22nd of April. So would you please be
9 more precise in identifying your documents, either by names or anything
11 I also see that there is a kind of a file number on top, the first
12 one being e20glodj.doc; the second in the list, e19glodj.doc; the third
13 one, e18glodj.doc. That might be a better way of referring to the
14 incident reports.
15 MR. RE: Your Honour, I think I am going to have to wait until the
16 copies of the ERNs arrive. It appears that, unfortunately, the copy which
17 you have is out of order ERN order. I'll have to -- I'll have to move to
18 something else. I apologise for that.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please do as you deem fit.
20 MR. RE: I'll come back to that.
21 Q. Ms. Andjelkovic, while we're waiting for the other copy to arrive,
22 I want to take you to two "Spotlight" reports, which are at the very back
23 of that bundle which you have there. The first one is "Spotlight" report
24 number 26. I want you just to have a brief look at that, please.
25 Now, "Spotlight" report number 26 is headed, "Kosovo Human Rights
1 in Times of Armed Conflict," and was published by the Humanitarian Law
2 Centre in Belgrade in May 1998. I'll take you to the first portion.
3 The first portion is headed "Police operation in Cirez and
4 Likoshane, the 28th of February, 1st of March, 1998."
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were you involved in any of the investigations in relation to
8 A. No, I wasn't involved in the investigation.
9 Q. The second portion, which is on the fifth page, is called
10 the "Police operation in Donji Prekaze, 5th and 6th of March, 1998." Were
11 you involved in any of the investigations leading to this particular
13 A. No, sir, I wasn't, not in that.
14 Q. The third one is entitled -- and it's on page, "Glodjane, the
15 March Clash and the Aftermath," and it says: "On the basis of its
16 research into the events in Glodjane village from 24 March to 22 April
17 1998, the HLC registered serious violations in this period of fundamental
18 human rights and international humanitarian law. The statements made to
19 HLC researchers by 28 witnesses, ethnic Albanians, Serbs, and
20 Montenegrins," and so on.
21 Were you involved in the investigation in relation to that
22 particular incident?
23 A. Yes, sir, I have been.
24 Q. And if you can just very briefly - we may have touched on this
25 yesterday - tell the Trial Chamber what your input was into preparing that
1 part of the report.
2 A. I interviewed some of the villagers from the area of Decan.
3 Q. Are those referred to, your interviews, are they referred to in
4 your incident report and in your diaries?
5 A. Yes, they are.
6 Q. Are you -- I'll come back to that in a moment when I have a better
7 copy of the incident reports.
8 Moving on to the next one, I want to take you to the next report,
9 which is in this bundle, which is called "Spotlight Report 27," headed
10 "Kosovo Disappearances in Times of Armed Conflict," 15th of January to
11 the 30th of July, 1998, published by the Humanitarian Law Centre on the
12 5th of August, 1998."
13 The first section on page 1 of the report refers to -- has a
14 heading called, "Disappearance of Albanians Attributable to the Police."
15 My question is: Were you involved, or did you make any
16 contribution to the compilation of this particular report in relation to
17 point 1?
18 A. Yes, sir, I have -- I did.
19 Q. Next one, number 2, "Disappearances of Serbs Attributable to the
20 Kosovo Liberation Army." Likewise, did you contribute to that?
21 A. Yes, sir, I did.
22 Q. The third one is entitled, "Disappearances of Albanians Attributed
23 to Kosovo Liberation Army." Did you contribute to that?
24 A. No, sir. I don't recall that that piece of information came from
25 any of my interviews.
1 Q. Number 4, just underneath that is "Disappearances of Serbs and
2 Roma in Unclear Circumstances." What was your involvement, at all, in
3 relation to that?
4 A. I have interviewed families of some of the people listed in this
6 Q. And the final one is called "Disappearances of Albanians in
7 Unclear Circumstances." It's labelled or headed number 5. Same
9 A. I don't recall, sir, being involved in any of these interviews. I
10 don't think so.
11 Q. Okay. The documents I need for you to see are still on their way,
12 but I'll take you back to the first "Spotlight" report and the part that
13 you said you contributed to in relation to Glodjane. Can you please go to
14 your incident reports and identify which of those, if they're there,
15 relate to the report by the Humanitarian Law Centre.
16 A. I'm sorry, the incidents where I have spoken -- where I spoke to
17 people? Could you guide me as to how to quote them, by witness or ...
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, Your Honour, the suggestion that you
19 had made previously with regard to the file number at the top might be not
20 a bad way of doing it.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, of course, I do not know whether there are
22 any doubles there, but I hope that -- files usually do not have the same
23 name. Could you say the file always starting with "File," and then for
24 the first one, "e20glodj.doc," if you could refer to them in this way,
25 then I hope we'd be able to follow.
1 THE WITNESS: Can I speak now?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: It would be E20Glodj; the next one would be E19;
4 then E10.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please quote the full name of the document,
6 because it could be that there's an E19 with some other extension.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So I do understand that you refer to E20Glodj.doc and
10 THE WITNESS: E19Glodj.doc.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And now you're moving to E10Glodj.doc, as well? --
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, E10. Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 THE WITNESS: Then E4Glodj.doc and E3Glodj.doc.
15 MR. RE: For the record, I have a copy with the ERNs on it. I
16 will just read them for the transcript so we don't lose it. E20Glodj has
17 an ERN which is K0577193; E19 has an ERN of K057791; E10 has an ERN the
18 same, 7171; E4, 7209; and E3, 7206.
19 Q. Are there any other relating to Glodjane there?
20 A. Not that I could see in here.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Just for our information at this moment, the incident
22 reports are sorted in such a way that they count down from E20 down and
23 then there's a second portion which starts with E23, E22, and E21. These
24 are the last three in this binder. And have you checked those as well, as
25 to whether you drafted them?
1 THE WITNESS: Those are not mine.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, that's clear. Thank you.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
4 MR. RE:
5 Q. If I could take you to the first one you referred to, which is
6 E10, a report of -- I apologise. I just said it in the wrong order. What
7 I actually meant was E20, which is the one on the top.
8 The date of the report is the 27th of April, 1997. The date of
9 the incident is the 22nd of April, 1998, and it refers to a statement by a
10 one Novak Stijovic. Just to make this clear, was that a statement you
11 took from that particular person?
12 A. Yes, this was a statement from Mr. Stijovic.
13 Q. And is that recorded in your -- the diaries which are in the
15 A. Yes, it was.
16 Q. Are you able to locate within the diaries which one it is?
17 MR. RE: Only if it would assist the Trial Chamber to go through
18 this exercise in court. I appreciate it should have been done outside
19 court and taken -- her taken straight to it, but it's just a matter of
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may proceed. If it confuses too much,
22 we'll intervene. Please proceed.
23 Could you answer the question.
24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, could you repeat the question. I'm not
25 sure I understand the question.
1 MR. RE:
2 Q. You have your diaries. There's a copy of your diaries, the
3 English translation, there. If I could take you to the 13th page of the
4 one which has got on the bottom written "Volume 2." That's behind the
5 first green -- the first green pad -- sorry, first green piece of paper.
6 If I could take you to page 13 of that.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that the entry in your diary which relates to that incident
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can you be a little more exact, what you are
11 referring to?
12 MR. RE: It's page 13 --
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Page 13, and then which paragraph?
14 MR. RE: At the top of the page, it says "Stijovic Novak," and
15 then it says: "On the 22nd of April, 1998" --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, the confusion comes from you referred to the
17 first portion after the first green page, and this is the first portion
18 after the second green page, but at least it's clear to us now, because
19 there's a green divider page that's second or third in order.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, I also see that now.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we've found it.
22 Have you found it?
23 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have, sir.
24 MR. RE:
25 Q. The next one I want to take you to is E19, which was the next one
1 which you referred to in terms of the incident reports. The date of that
2 incident report -- the making of the report was the 27th of April; 1998;
3 the incident was on the 22nd of April, 1998.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, just for my information.
5 MR. RE: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Your last question, I don't think you received an
7 answer, did you? As a matter of fact, your question was --
8 MR. RE: Oh, I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- "If I could take you to page 13." Then you said:
10 "Is that the entry in your diary which relates to that incident report?"
11 And then we tried to find exactly what page you were referring to, and I
12 think you later on -- only I asked whether the witness had found it; she
13 confirmed that. But to say that an answer was given to your question, I
14 cannot find that. Would you please, then, seek an answer to your
16 MR. RE: Yes.
17 Q. Ms. Andjelkovic, I confused you saying "Yes, I have it, sir," with
18 "Yes, that's mine."
19 Can you confirm or otherwise to the Trial Chamber whether that is
20 a record of a conversation you recorded with Mr. Novak Stijovic on the
21 27th of April, 1998?
22 A. Yes, it is a translation of that record.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Which pages, please?
24 JUDGE ORIE: The first one.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 MR. RE:
2 Q. That's pages 13, 14, and 15 of that translation; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Do you mean 13, 14, and the first three lines of
5 page 15?
6 MR. RE: Yes, Your Honour Judge Hoepfel is completely correct.
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
9 MR. RE:
10 Q. And what was the ethnicity of Mr. Novak Stijovic?
11 A. I don't think he has stated his ethnicity, and I don't think that
12 I asked.
13 Q. All right. The next one I want to take you to was the one you
14 mentioned, which was E19, relating to Kostadin Stijovic, in which a
15 statement there says that, "I was taken prisoner in my village Pozar and
16 then taken to their headquarters in Glodjane. My daughter-in-law Milka
17 Stijovic and neighbour Stana Popovic were taken together with me. They
18 searched us and put us in a car. They didn't ask us any questions. When
19 we got to the headquarters in Glodjane, they questioned me and mussed
20 around my cap. I told them I wasn't at war with anyone."
21 Is that at page 15 of the diaries, that particular conversation or
23 A. Yes, that is the translation of the interview that I took from Mr.
24 Kostadin Stijovic.
25 Q. Where Mr. Kostadin Stijovic refers to "they" taking him prisoner
1 in his village and "taking me to their headquarters in Glodjane," did he
2 tell you who he was referring to?
3 A. No, he didn't.
4 Q. Did you have any information which led you to believe or conclude
5 who he was talking about; that is, who "they" were?
6 A. At that time, most villagers would just say "they," and they would
7 usually refer to either armed men or to people they didn't know that they
8 would see in villages or around those roads.
9 Q. All right. Of what ethnicity were these armed men?
10 A. He doesn't say in this -- in the notes. He doesn't say in the
11 interview notes.
12 Q. The next one you referred to was E10, which was ERN K0577171. The
13 report is of the 27th of April, 1998, relating to an incident on the 18th
14 of April, 1998 at the house of Dragoslav Stojanovic, Dubrava, Decani
15 township, in Kosovo. What can you tell the Court about this particular
16 statement and the circumstances of your taking it?
17 A. This is -- this was an interview with one of the members of
18 Stojanovic family from -- from Decani, village of Dubrava.
19 Q. Could I take you to page 9 of volume 2 of the diaries, that would
20 be notebooks that's behind the second green -- sorry, that's the -- it
21 should be the same one you were looking at a moment ago.
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Page 9, with an ERN heading of 00 -- sorry, U0030624, Stojanovic
24 Mijat, Dragoslav Dubrava. And on pages 9 to 12, it appears to relate to
25 Mr. Mijat Stojanovic. Now, I briefly touched upon this one yesterday. Is
1 that the corresponding diary entry to that incident report?
2 A. Yes, pretty much. That is the translation of -- of the interview
3 I took in April 1998.
4 Q. Now, in that, you refer to -- that is, the diary, you refer to an
5 incident before Easter. Mijat Stojanovic, I take it, was of Serbian
6 ethnicity, that particular name?
7 A. As I recall, they considered themselves Montenegrins.
8 Q. This one refers to an incident in which 10 to 15 soldiers entered
9 his house. They surrendered. The soldiers were hitting D. Who is D?
10 Was that Dragoslav?
11 A. Yes, D was short for Dragoslav.
12 Q. " They were hitting Dragoslav with their rifle butts and kicking
13 him with their boots. The two of us were ordered to lie down next to
14 Dragoslav. They beat us as well. When Nasim Haradinaj entered, the
15 beating stopped, but they continued."
16 Then it goes on: "The HQ was located at 800, 1 kilometre from
17 there in the house of Nasim Haradinaj, the house which had been deserted
18 since the 90s."
19 What HQ were you or Mr. Stojanovic referring to in that particular
20 diary entry?
21 A. According to Mr. Stojanovic, that was in UCK HQ.
22 Q. The next incident you referred to was E4. The report was the 9th
23 of April, 1997, referring to an abduction on the 14th of September, 1997.
24 I'm not interested in that one.
25 Incident 2, the 24th of March, 1998, Dubrava, Decani township in
1 Kosovo, relating to Dragoslav Stojanovic, where he says: "Statement --"
2 where it says: "Statement by Vladimir Stojanovic. It happened on
3 Tuesday, the 24th of March this year," when his brother and mother were in
4 Dubrava. And it refers to -- "in the neighbours' house, five or six
5 rockets were from hand-launchers in the car and blazed at it with
6 machine-guns. The shooting lasted for about 15 minutes. Then the police
7 arrived and came into our yard where they opened fire on the Haradinaj
8 house in which there were OVK," and it says: "HLC note: Serbian acronym
9 for the Liberation Army of Kosovo soldiers."
10 Now, was this the incident at the Haradinaj house on the 24th of
11 March, 1998?
12 A. Yes, I think that's what it refers to.
13 Q. If you can go to volume 1, which is the first set of papers in
14 that binder, and go to page 10. Can you identify whether that passage
15 halfway down the page head -- where it says "9th of April, D. Stojanovic,"
16 going over from there to --
17 A. Yes, that is a translation of -- of the interview on page 10.
18 Q. The next one you referred to was E3. A report of the 9th of
19 April, 1998 in relation to an incident on the 24th of March, 1998. It's
20 headed: "Statement by Ljubica Stojanovic." And it says: "I wasn't
21 attacked by Albanians up until now. I hope to go back home if I can.
22 Until the police came, I was with them, the Albanians I mean, every day.
23 Ours is the only Serb house in ten villages. They caught my son Dragoslav
24 the end of February. They stopped him, took his pistol, then gave it back
25 ..." And so on.
1 What was -- Mr. Ljubica Stojanovic -- she? Is Ljubica Stojanovic
3 A. As I recall, she considered herself Montenegrin.
4 Q. Okay. If you can go to page 11 of the volume I just referred you
5 to, the earlier one, which was volume 1, the very bottom of the page,
6 where it says: "LJ" -- "LJS have been on the land for 75 years. 55 years
7 is printed. They did not attack me. I intended to return there," et
8 cetera, et cetera.
9 Is that the corresponding entry on your diary?
10 A. Yes, it is. It is a translation of an entry in the -- in the
11 note -- notebooks.
12 Q. If I can now take you to the second report which we went to
13 before,"Spotlight" report number 2 -- sorry, number 27, and the first
14 part, "Disappearances of Albanians Attributable to the Police," and so on.
15 I want you to perform the same exercise. If you can just maybe tab that
16 one so you don't lose it. Maybe put a yellow sticker on "Spotlight"
17 report number 27. And if you could then go back to the incident reports
18 and just identify from the incident reports any incident reports you
19 contributed to which were used to -- as source material for "Spotlight"
20 report number 27?
21 A. If I understood right, you would like me to link the summary that
22 is in the spot report to the incident reports that I filed; am I correct?
23 Q. Absolutely.
24 A. Right. I don't see that you have those incident reports.
25 Q. Are you able to look at the diaries which are in front of you and
1 identify any diary entries which were used as source material for that
2 particular report?
3 A. Right. I just need to refer to -- to a note where I know who I
4 first heard of, about the names of the elderly missing, if you don't mind.
5 Q. Sure.
6 A. Yes. It was Mr. Labovic who first -- who first told me, and from
7 whom I -- I heard first, that there were several elderly people
8 unaccounted for.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honours, I hesitate to interrupt.
10 I'm just a little confused. She said she needed to refer to a note, and
11 I'm trying to figure out what note she's referring to.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether you could find any entry in
13 your notebook where you were not able to identify any of the incident
14 reports. Could you guide us to where -- you seem to have found it, you
15 said, with Mr. Labovic, where to find that in your --
16 THE WITNESS: Right. I shall try to find it in the translation of
17 notebooks. Where I did find it is in the copy of my first statement four
18 years ago. It has --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, which you have not in front of you at this
20 moment, or do you? No, that's fine. It's only -- I'm just seeking
21 confirmation that -- no problem.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You have the translation in front of you?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour, I think she also may well have her
2 statement in front of her too, and that's what she referenced. I think.
3 I'm not sure. I just don't know.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Andjelkovic, if you have your statement in front
5 of you, you're supposed not to look in any material which you are not
6 instructed to look at. Yes?
7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I didn't know.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Don't apologise. No one ever told you. So it's
9 quite clear. But don't be disturbed about it. We're just trying to get
10 things as good as we can. I can't see from here exactly what you've got
11 in front of you. But I do understand that this name of Mr. -- I think you
12 said --
13 THE WITNESS: Uros Labovic.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that your recollection was refreshed by your
15 first statement.
16 Mr. Re, it's a matter of finding in documents any reference. I'm
17 wondering whether the Defence were earlier guided, and the witness quite
18 clearly, whether there would be any objection against guiding the witness
20 MR. EMMERSON: Absolutely not at all. If Mr. Re has the
21 references, I'd be perfectly happy with that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps Mr. Re might assist you if he -- if he, at
23 least, can find it.
24 MR. RE: This is where -- actually, where we got to yesterday.
25 That was the page that said "Kidnapped Serbs: Slobodan Radosevic,
1 Milos Radunovic, Milica Radunovic." It's page 17 of the volume 2, which
2 is the second bundle of documents there.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Have you found that, Ms. Andjelkovic? Page 17 in the
4 second subset.
5 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. Do you recall whether you made an incident report in relation to
9 that particular incident -- in relation to what is recorded in your diary
11 A. I think I did. I think I -- I filed all the reports at the time.
12 I have not had any access to these reports. Once I file them, they were
13 out of my interest, to be honest. So there must have been a report from
14 my interview with -- with Mr. Labovic as well.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I ask you, in order to verify that, did you
16 make any marking in your diaries or any note about having filed a certain
18 THE WITNESS: Unfortunately, no. If I may tell the Chamber, the
19 notes were there for my use; they were never meant for anything else.
20 That's why sometimes there was -- there's just bits and pieces in them,
21 because they were just there for me to jot down things, and then for the
22 interviews, to later transfer them.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. We may come back to that later.
24 MR. RE:
25 Q. Can I take you to -- in the "Spotlight" report 27, the section 2,
1 which is entitled : "Disappearances of Serbs Attributable to the Kosovo
2 Liberation Army." Earlier you told the Trial Chamber that you had
3 contributed to or gathered source material for this report.
4 The first portion, 2.1, was "Unknown Fate of Dara and Vukosava
5 Vujosevic and Milovan and Milka Vlahovic of Gornji Ratis." It says: "The
6 Serb inhabitants of Gornji Ratis fled on 21 April when the KLA took
7 control of the area and found refuge at the youth centre in the town of
8 Decani, close to the medieval -- the Visoki Decani monastery."
9 And it goes down: "The Vlahovics' daughter, who left the village
10 with her brother on the 21st of April, told the HLC they tried to return
11 the next day for their parents but were stopped and turned back by KLA
13 I want to ask you: What contribution, if any, did you make to
14 that portion of the report?
15 A. I talked to some of the villagers from that general area.
16 Q. And was what they told you consistent with what is written in that
17 portion of the report?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. The next one is 2.2, "Unknown Fate of Slobodan Radosevic and
20 Milica and Milos Radunovic of Dasinovac." It says:
21 "The KLA took control of Dasinovac on 22 April. Most Serbs fled
22 the village the day before. Only Slobodan Radosevic, 64, and Milica
23 Radunovic, 59, and her husband Milos, and the Markovic family remained.
24 Radosevic's wife Rosa and their son Stanisa tried to return for Slobodan
25 the next day. They were able to reach the Pozar village where they were
1 stopped at a KLA check-point and taken to the KLA headquarters in Glodjane
2 where they told the HLC Stanisa was physically abused. They were released
3 later that day but were not allowed to go to Dasinovac for Slobodan.
4 Milica and Milos Radunovic were last seen by their son and daughter-in-law
5 on the 22nd of April, when they came home from Decani ..." and so on.
6 What, if anything, did you contribute to that portion of the
8 A. Right. Apart from the names that were told by the villagers about
9 people from Ratishe e Eperme and Dasinovac, that nobody knew at that time
10 what happened to them. I also spoke with Radunovics' daughter-in-law, but
11 I can't recall -- it was at a later date. I can't really recall whether
12 it was in May, in Peje, or later on. I'm not sure.
13 Q. It goes on to say: "Relatives have heard that they were buried by
14 the roadside in Glodjane but no one has seen their graves."
15 How did that information come to be put in the report?
16 A. Another colleague of mine was talking to some other families, and
17 then also if I -- if I recall, the daughter-in-law of Radunovics said that
18 the family was trying, through some of their neighbours, ethnic Albanian
19 neighbours, or friends, they were trying to find information as to what
20 had happened to the couple, to the old Radunovics, because the family was
21 afraid to go back to the village themselves. But other information may
22 have come from other sources, because this was a compilation, it was --
23 this was not written by me, obviously. I'm not -- this was written by
24 legal advisors at the HLC.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, Your Honour. I have a question that may more
2 appropriately be handled in private session. I want to seek a bit of
3 guidance here. There was the mention of a colleague. I don't know if the
4 colleague is going to be identified. It seems to me it could be either
5 handled perhaps through cross-examination or it might be appropriate for
6 it to be dealt with at this point in time, since the witness is relying on
7 the help from a colleague. But obviously if it's a name of some
8 sensitivity, it's something that I don't -- I don't want to offend
9 anybody's concerns.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, I don't know whether I fully
12 understood you, but if the witness would like to refer to any name of
13 colleagues, then you would suggest that I offer to the witness to go into
14 private session. Is that it?
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, only because I believe there may be some
16 hesitancy in that regard, and for the moment I don't know how the Chamber
17 wishes to handle it. I didn't know what you wanted to do, so I thought
18 I'd raise the subject before --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Andjelkovic, we dealt with it yesterday as well.
20 If you would have any hesitation as to giving names because you may have
21 some concerns about -- perhaps security concerns, whatever, not having
22 been in a position to consult with the persons you'd like to name, please
23 address me and then we'll consider whether or not to go into private
25 But before we do so, I'm also looking at the clock. Mr. Re, I,
1 yesterday, told you that you would have certainly not more than one hour.
2 It's now 60 minutes ago that the witness entered the courtroom. So if I
3 deduce the time we spent on procedural matters before the witness came
4 into court and if I would take into consideration that some, could I call
5 it, confusion time, that it's -- well, I could not find any other party to
6 be blamed for it, let me say it the frank way. Then you've supposed to
7 finish your examination-in-chief in the next eight to ten minutes.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. RE:
10 Q. Ms. Andjelkovic, I want to take you to point 2.1, which
11 says: "Disappearances of Serbs Attributable to the Kosovo Liberation
12 Army." 2.1: "Unknown Fate of" -- I've said that one, I apologise.
13 Can I take you to 2.24, which is on page 13, which is
14 entitled: "The Abduction of Police" -- sorry, 2.24: "The Abduction of
15 Police Officers Nikola Jovanovic and Rado Popadic."
16 It gives the source as the Belgrade media, but did you have
17 anything to do with the compilation of that report in relation to that
18 particular incident?
19 A. No, I didn't. I don't recall.
20 Q. Can you just --
21 A. I didn't interview anyone.
22 Q. Can you just identify for the record, in the time available, just
23 by the number, the heading, and the title of the portion of the report
24 that you contributed to. If you just go from the beginning to the end and
25 just read onto the record the bits which you assisted in finding the
1 source material to put into the end product.
2 A. Right. It would be 2.1 that we've already mentioned, 2.2, 2.5 --
3 no, sorry, I'm sorry. It's not 5. It's 2.6: "Arbitrary Detention of
4 Three Women from Veliki Djurdjevak," I think is the other name. 2.7, 2.8,
5 2.10 --
6 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honours, I'm sorry to rise to my feet at this
7 moment, and I'm not objecting, but it's right that you should know, this
8 report covers a much wider period than the indictment region and the
9 passages that the witness is now referring to are passages that were dealt
10 with in her witness statement which the Prosecution have indicated that,
11 because of their lack of relevance to this trial, they did not propose to
12 introduce. I don't object, but you ought to know that that's the
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Mr. Re, I can imagine that you'd rather use your time and perhaps
16 at a later moment respond --
17 MR. RE: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- since there's no objection.
19 MR. RE: At the moment I just want the witness to identify those
20 passages. That's all.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Fine.
22 MR. RE:
23 Q. Keep going, please.
24 A. It was 2.11, 2.12, and 2.15. Shall I continue in the last
25 paragraph? All right.
1 In the last section that starts "Disappearances of Serbs and Roma
2 in Unclear Circumstances," it was 4.5.
3 Q. 4.5?
4 A. 4.5.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Since you read that title from the previous
6 paragraph, could you read that title so we're sure we're on the same
8 THE WITNESS: So it's paragraph 4, Roman (iv): "Disappearances of
9 Serbs and Roma in Unclear Circumstances."
10 JUDGE ORIE: And then 4.5 reads?
11 THE WITNESS: And then 4.5 reads: "Radomir and Dragutin Vostic
12 from Jelovac."
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Any others in this paragraph?
14 THE WITNESS: I don't think so, no.
15 MR. RE:
16 Q. Ms. Andjelkovic --
17 A. Not in this section.
18 Q. -- there are two things I wanted to do before I finish. The first
19 one, I'll ask you some questions, the general -- first of all, I just want
20 you to go through the remainder of the incident reports and identify any
21 others, just by reading the incident number onto the record, that you
22 assisted in compiling. You only went through -- you only identified
23 Glodjane the first time. I just want those on the record and then I want
24 to ask you several questions about your general observations, and that
25 will conclude my examination-in-chief.
1 If you go back to the incident reports, if there's any that you
2 didn't tab or you haven't mentioned before related to Glodjane -- I didn't
3 take you specifically to any others, apart from those in Glodjane.
4 A. I don't see any here.
5 Q. Okay. Now, you've given evidence of visiting Kosovo on a number
6 of occasions as a human rights monitor, interviewing Serbs who told you
7 that they had been displaced from their homes and who had had encounters
8 with armed Albanians and members of the KLA; that's in the incident
9 reports. What did you observe? Was there anything that emerged from what
10 they told you which enabled you to draw any conclusions about what was
11 going on there, based upon your experience, your observations, things you
12 heard, things you saw?
13 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I do apologise. I think Your Honour
14 knows the nature of the concern. This is specifically what, as we
15 understood it, Your Honour had indicated --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, Mr. Re - I carefully looked at the
17 phrasing of his question - was not asking for the conclusions but just for
18 facts that --
19 MR. EMMERSON: I think he asks specifically at line 16 "which
20 enabled you to draw any conclusions ..."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, he didn't ask what conclusions those
22 were, just whether there were facts which -- that's, at least, how I
23 understand the phrasing.
24 MR. EMMERSON: I apologise.
25 JUDGE ORIE: So, Ms. Andjelkovic, you're invited to tell us what
1 you observed and what caught your attention which may have led you to
2 conclusions. We are not at this moment primarily interested in what
3 conclusions you've drawn, but mainly on what observations you made which
4 gave you reason to think about what happened there. Yes.
5 THE WITNESS: Right. So the -- whatever observations I had
6 were -- well, first of all, there was increased tensions in smaller --
7 smaller places like Decan, or a city in the west, Peje/Pec. There was
8 more police and everybody was very nervous. And then based on my
9 interviews with some of the people from the villages, there was increased
10 fear. And indeed, after Easter that year, what the people I interviewed
11 told me was that most ethnic Serb or Montenegrin villagers had left and
12 went to -- either to bigger towns, like Gjakova or Decan, or someplace
13 else where they had family.
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. In general, what were the reasons that you were given for their
16 leaving, and where were they leaving?
17 A. Villagers that I talked to in the first -- before mid-April, the
18 first that left would usually have small children and so they would want
19 to go to a safer place, they -- the people that I --
20 JUDGE ORIE: May I stop you for a second.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Did they say, My wife left or my family left because
23 they have got small children? Or did you observe that there were small
24 children and you interpreted that as the reason for them leaving? Is that
25 what they told you or was that your own conclusion?
1 THE WITNESS: There were two cases that I can recall now, off the
2 top of my head, where people said, I have small children; I can't stay.
3 So that -- and, as I said, at police check-points, the police were quite
4 nervous and there were high tensions. And, indeed, I was stopped on a
5 number of occasions.
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. What was your understanding, based on everything you understood
8 and heard in that area of Kosovo in March, April, May of 1998, about what
9 was occurring?
10 A. My understanding was that there were armed men somewhere in the
11 villages, in Dukagjin area, and that the two main reasons for the -- from
12 some of the villagers leaving was generally insecurity or the fact later
13 on, around Easter time, that they were stopped by armed men or taken and
15 Q. What was your understanding, based on everything you saw and heard
16 in the same period, about who these armed men were?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, could you invite the witness there to --
18 could you please guide the witness there exactly and sources of
19 knowledge. I mean, understanding is rather vague and could -- I can
20 understand things because my mind allows me to draw conclusions or I can
21 understand things by an analytical approach on the things I see. I would
22 like you to be very precise there.
23 Perhaps I could assist the witness. Ms. Andjelkovic, Mr. Re asks
24 you about who these armed men were. If you answer that question, could
25 you very precisely indicate whether your understanding was based on what
1 was told to you or -- and then preferably also who told you, and then also
2 exactly what they told you. So it's a rather generally phrased question.
3 Could you be as precise as possible in your answer as to your source of --
4 the basis for your understanding.
5 THE WITNESS: What I understood from the people that -- that have
6 talked to me, they were afraid of armed groups that spoke Albanian. Some
7 of the villagers that I spoke with were talking about people in uniforms;
8 others were talking about people in civilian clothes but armed. I have to
9 say, I haven't seen anyone. This is only based on what people -- some of
10 the people that I spoke to told me. And there was also what police were
11 saying at check-points.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Were they saying -- were they talking about the
13 language the armed men used; are you specifically referring to that?
14 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, when the police is concerned or --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, first. You said what the police were saying.
16 THE WITNESS: What the police were saying.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I mean, you mentioned a few things, whether in
18 uniform, not in uniform, but you also mentioned language. What exactly
19 did the police say in this respect?
20 THE WITNESS: Oh, in this respect, the police was -- was saying
21 that these people were terrorists. They weren't saying anything else.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Didn't say anything about language, they didn't
23 say --
24 THE WITNESS: No, they weren't say anything. They -- they would
25 always refer with this name.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you earlier referred to villagers telling you
2 that they were afraid of people speaking Albanian.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a recollection on this reference to
5 language? Was that made by all of them, half of them, 10 per cent of
6 them? I'm trying to find out how many people you spoke to mentioned the
7 use of this language when they referred to the armed men.
8 THE WITNESS: There were a few villagers that I spoke with in
9 Decan right after Easter mentioned the language, and they were spoken to
10 in Albanian but also in Serbian, if they didn't understand. Also,
11 another -- in an -- earlier than that, I don't recall -- I've seen it
12 here, that that interview was translated. A young boy that -- that I
13 spoke with at Peje Hospital also mentioned that a group of people stopped
14 them and that they were armed, and they spoke to them first in Albanian,
15 and then when they didn't understand, they spoke to them in Serbian
17 JUDGE ORIE: When you say "a few," what should I understand a few
18 to be, 5, 10, 50?
19 THE WITNESS: A few? I would say half a dozen would be the
20 safest bet.
21 JUDGE ORIE: On a totality of how many people you spoke to?
22 THE WITNESS: Throughout the whole period or just in that time?
23 JUDGE ORIE: In that time.
24 THE WITNESS: Oh, in that time. It might have been maybe 20
25 people in the different villages.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, any further questions? Because you had
2 spent already your ten minutes but -- eight to ten minutes.
3 MR. RE: I just wish to clarify something from that, if you permit
5 Q. That is in relation to the armed men, were you told these armed
6 men were Serbian, military, Serbian police, or someone else?
7 A. No, sir. When -- when the villagers talked about police, they
8 would always say "the police."
9 Q. The ethnicity of those people who were telling you that they were
10 fearing these armed men who weren't Serbian police, et cetera, what was
11 their ethnicity?
12 A. I'm sorry, who --
13 Q. The ethnicity of those who were in fear of the armed men.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: Most people that I spoke with at that time were
16 referring to themselves as ethnic Serbs or Montenegrins. Predominantly
17 they're Orthodox Christians, but people in Kosova sometimes say that they
18 are Serbs, sometimes Montenegrins.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, may I assume that this concludes your
21 Ms. Andjelkovic, where we hoped to finish within one hour, we did
22 not manage to do that.
23 Mr. Emmerson, could you tell us how much time you need to
25 MR. EMMERSON: I don't think a great deal of time, but there are
1 just one or two matters of practical clarification that I'd like some
2 assistance with from Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. EMMERSON: For example, it had been my aim to cross-examine on
5 the material electronically through e-court, rather than to cross-examine
6 from a paper bundle which isn't paginated. But I notice that Your Honours
7 have been making markings during the course of this witness' most recent
8 evidence-in-chief. I'm entirely in your hands. I can -- either way
9 there's going to have to be some delay, because it now appears that Mr. Re
10 has not uploaded this material onto the e-court system, but on the other
11 hand, I don't have it cross-referred to paper sources.
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm -- Madam Registrar is also a bit confused
14 about what material to use, et cetera. Perhaps if you could work on the
15 same basis, also in order not to confuse the witness because --
16 MR. EMMERSON: On the paper basis.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps exceptionally, this, although being my
18 first e-court case, the start is that -- not that brilliant in that
19 respect. And then, of course, we have to keep a close eye on what
20 material we're using, whether it will be uploaded, et cetera, et cetera,
21 so that we have no confusion.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Just two things, if I may.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. EMMERSON: That necessitates a short period of time to
25 transfer references across.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. EMMERSON: It also will mean that what could have been a much
3 more efficient cross-examination will take slightly longer because we'll
4 be having to leaf through the bundle, but -- with my apologies to the
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. How much time do you think you'll need? We'll
7 then schedule the break for the time you would need.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I can certainly be ready by 5.00. I would
9 hope to be able to be ready before that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we'll take time until 5.00. That's
11 most convenient for everyone.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I will certainly be ready by then. And I
13 shan't be, Ms. Andjelkovic can be re-asssured, a very great period of time
14 with her.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Any further observations by --
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I, too, am slightly concerned about how we're
17 going to proceed. At this point, I'm wondering whether or not it might
18 not be -- it might behoove us to, for the moment, generically mark the
19 binder that we all received marked as -- mark for identification purposes
20 only collectively as P3. I'm just trying to figure out some way of
21 dealing with it, because I was going to be examining with regard to P1 and
22 P2, and I just -- I want to make sure that I'm at the right place.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is that material -- you would like to refer to also
24 in the binder we received today?
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe that it is, Your Honour. I have to
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's perhaps -- Madam Registrar, would it be,
3 although it's -- there are quite some different documents in there, could
4 you perhaps consult with me during the break and see how we are going to
5 number this material at this moment, and the confusion is complete, I
6 agree with you, Mr. Guy-Smith, but let's try to get through it.
7 Mr. Harvey, any ...
8 MR. HARVEY: I will not be doing anything to add to the confusion,
9 Your Honour.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you very much, Mr. Harvey, for this very
11 useful contribution.
12 We adjourn and we'll resume at 5.00, so we'll have a break of 50
14 Ms. Andjelkovic, then you'll be cross-examined by counsel for the
16 --- Recess taken at 4.11 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 5.08 p.m.
18 MR. RE: Before the cross-examination starts, there was the matter
19 you addressed in private session before. I do have an answer for you. I
20 can probably give it to you in open session, or it wouldn't matter if it
21 was heard --
22 JUDGE ORIE: It depends on the answer, I take it, whether you
23 can -- if you can -- I also have one tiny, little procedural matter which
24 I'd like to deal with also in order to make everyone -- put everyone in
25 the position to proceed with what he has to do.
1 My point would be that there was a confidential motion for
2 videolink. That motion is denied, reasons to follow. That's short.
3 Whether we'll give the reasons orally or in writing is another matter.
4 But we'll try to formulate it as precisely as possible. But for your
5 information, the motion is denied.
6 Yes, the other matter, if you could just be as brief as I was on
7 the matter, then ...
8 MR. RE: If I can move into private session for one moment.
9 There's no problem with the witness being here.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. EMMERSON: I think I have an inkling of how Mr. Re proposes to
12 approach this, and when I respond to it, I'm going to have to deal with
13 the order of witnesses generally for the next two weeks. And given that
14 that is the -- given that that is the --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, let's --
16 MR. RE: Sorry.
17 MR. EMMERSON: It might be better to deal with it at the end of
18 the day, unless it's desperately urgent.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let's deal with it at the end of the day.
20 I further inform you that there's another decision to be
21 delivered. We'll do that also after we've heard the testimony of this
23 Very practically, we have considered the -- well, to say it, the
24 situation at this moment as far as exhibits are concerned. We reviewed
25 the content of the binder of today. We find that there's a provisional
1 translation of notebook 1 in non-ERN sequential order but in the right
2 chronology, order of the original. That's the first portion, apart from a
3 cover page which seems to be unrelated to the matter. That will receive a
5 Then we have a draft translation, second notebook, ERN numbers
6 sequential. That will get a number as well.
7 Then there's a third portion in the binder which has not been
8 referred to today, from what I understand, and which is, from what we also
9 understood, a copy of the one originally submitted. That will not get a
10 new number. It has not been referred to today.
11 Then we have -- the next portion is a series of translated
12 incident reports. I'll define them in more detail at a later stage. That
13 will get a new number as well.
14 Then we have another section containing two "Spotlight" reports,
15 and that will get a separate number as well.
16 So we'll have four exhibits in addition today. Since we do not
17 know exactly whether these are the final versions of the notebooks, it
18 might well be that at a later stage, that a chronologically correct
19 version, perhaps a selection - that would be a possibility - but at least
20 those portions completely translated, that they will be tendered and that
21 would finally be the evidence. I mean, the content would exactly be the
23 But what's the reason why the Chamber does not want to have these
24 earlier versions replaced? That is because it will be almost impossible,
25 reading the transcript, to know exactly what we're talking about. So it
1 might well be that what is now P1 and P2 and what most likely will be P3
2 and P4, that they might never be admitted into evidence and only a
3 selection, well translated, well chronological order, finally will be
4 admitted into evidence; that's still to be seen.
5 As far as the series of incident reports, it's more likely that
6 they'll be tendered, and we'll then have to decide whether to admit them
7 in evidence, and the same would be true for the "Spotlight" reports.
8 This is what the Chamber has in mind as far as numbering is
9 concerned at this moment, allowing a full reconstruction of what happened
10 during these days in court.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Can I indicate and seek clarification just on one
12 minor matter?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Where it has been possible to do so, we have
15 uploaded onto the e-court system and released to the court officer on the
16 public side of the system those documents that I will be using in
17 cross-examination. They are also in the bundle so that we can
18 simultaneously see them on the screen. But they will obviously have a
19 Defence doc. identification -- document identification number as well.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I suggest that at a later stage, we'll see
21 whether there's any need to have them admitted into evidence.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, exactly.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If not, then they're still marked for identification
24 or not admitted. But at least it allows us again to clearly follow what
25 is on the transcript.
1 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And since the numbering does not interfere because
3 these will all be D numbers, there's no problem.
4 MR. EMMERSON: But that is not possible, I emphasise, in respect
5 of the notebooks because they have not been uploaded onto the system.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Then please proceed.
7 Mr. Emmerson, who is counsel for Mr. Haradinaj, will start his
9 Please proceed.
10 WITNESS: MARIJANA ANDJELKOVIC [Resumed]
11 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
12 Q. Ms. Andjelkovic, I just want, if I may, to ask you for some points
13 of clarification. You've been very careful in your evidence, if I may say
14 so, to confine yourself to specific answers to specific questions, and so
15 I want, if I may, to follow that and to ask you about specific, direct
17 First of all, can I get the chronology of your visits to Kosovo,
18 and western Kosovo in particular, absolutely clear during this period of
19 time? Can I just tell you what I think the position is and then seek your
20 clarification as to whether I'm right or not.
21 First of all, your first visit was -- or began on the 28th of
22 February. You spent about a week in the Drenica region and then -- no?
23 A. No, actually, I arrived on the 28th of February, and if I remember
24 correctly, it was a Sunday.
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. So the next day, I went with a colleague to Drenica region --
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. -- and I have to be perfectly honest and say that I had heard that
4 there may have been an incident, but I wasn't at the point --
5 Q. At Likoshan?
6 A. Cirez and Likoshane villages.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. But at that point, I did not know exactly where I was going and
9 what I was going to see there. So, you know, my involvement in that
10 matter was really circumstantial and probably not very prudent.
11 Q. No. I'll come back to ask you a few questions about what you do
12 know --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- in respect of Qirez and Likoshan in a moment or two. But just
15 to get the chronology right.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you arrive in Kosovo on about the 28th of February.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you make your way over towards the Decan region, western
20 Kosovo, I think you said, about five or six days later; is that right?
21 A. Yes. I think within -- within that week that I was there, the
22 beginning -- it was the first week of March.
23 Q. There's a period of days when you are in the Drenica region before
24 you make your way over towards Peje and Decan.
25 A. One day only, sir.
1 Q. I see. So, in fact, it would be pretty much at the beginning of
2 March that you'd make your way over to western Kosovo?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So, for example, on the 5th of March, the date of the Prekaz
5 incident involving the Jashari family, you would already have been in the
6 Decan area?
7 A. Yes. Yes, I believe so.
8 Q. Then I think you made a second visit at the end of March or the
9 beginning of April?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And that -- on that occasion you travelled to Decan and then to
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And I think you told us about how you travelled, and I'll come
15 back to that in a moment. Now, we know from your reports that you were
16 interviewing some people on the 9th of April.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you were also conducting interviews at the end of April?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But do we assume that you weren't in the region continuously,
21 then, from the beginning of April to the end?
22 A. No, sir, I wasn't.
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. I was going back and forth.
25 Q. So do those different little cluster of interviews represent
1 separate visits?
2 A. Yes, pretty much.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. There are some that are grouped and there are others that are on
5 separate visits.
6 Q. It may not matter terribly much, but the group of interviews that
7 took place on the 9th of April, do you know if you had been back to
8 Prishtina or to Belgrade between the beginning of April and the 9th?
9 A. I would say yes.
10 Q. You think yes?
11 A. I would -- I think yes.
12 Q. Okay. That's very helpful. Now, going back then to the first
13 visit. So -- I mean, I think you said a moment ago perhaps in retrospect
14 it wasn't terribly prudent because you had heard about the Likoshan and
15 Qirez incidents, and presumably you were moving into the Drenica area in
16 the immediate aftermath of that?
17 A. Yes, sir, that was before the funerals took place of the victims.
18 Q. Yes. I mean, did you come across Albanians during that period of
19 time, while you were -- in the first day or two that you were in the
20 Drenica regions?
21 A. Yes, sir, absolutely.
22 Q. And did you manage to pick up from them any information about the
23 level of tension in the Albanian community following those attacks?
24 A. Yes, absolutely. What I -- what I did see, there were long queues
25 of people who were waiting to express their condolences to families who
1 had lost members at the time.
2 Q. And I think you didn't investigate at Likoshan?
3 A. No. No, sir.
4 Q. But there was somebody from the HLC who did. I'm not asking for a
5 name, but there was somebody who did, wasn't there?
6 A. There was, yes. There was another --
7 Q. Who actually went and spoke to the families and to the people in
8 the area surrounding?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And is that somebody that you were working with and had you
11 travelled with that person?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I'm, again, absolutely clear: I'm not going to ask for the name.
14 In the collection of incident reports that you've seen, I mean there's
15 actually a very easy way of working out which ones are yours and which
16 ones are somebody else's, which is that they've got your initiates on
17 them, haven't they, MA?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And there are also the initials of the other person involved in
20 the other reports?
21 A. Yes. In the ones that were here, yes.
22 Q. Yes. Now, you've expressed some concern about giving individuals'
23 names, so I just want to be absolutely clear that we're talking about the
24 right person. I don't want, obviously, to use their name in the light of
25 what you've said. Would you be comfortable for me to use their initials,
1 or does that raise the same considerations?
2 A. I would --
3 JUDGE ORIE: If you have any doubt, we can go into private
4 session. It takes us two seconds and then you could give either initials
5 or names.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you feel more comfortable, we'll do that
9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would feel more comfortable --
10 MR. EMMERSON: I'm very happy --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar --
12 THE WITNESS: -- I don't know whether the person is a witness or
13 not. You have to understand.
14 MR. EMMERSON: I entirely understand.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 MR. EMMERSON:
20 Q. So I was asking you about that first --
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.
23 Q. I was asking you about that first visit. You told us that you met
24 some Albanians and picked up a certain sense of information from them.
25 But your colleague, who was an Albanian-speaking field-worker for the
1 Humanitarian Law Centre, had conducted the HLC inquiry into the aftermath
2 of Qirez and Likoshan?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I mean, did you speak to one another about what you were
5 respectively being told?
6 A. Yes, of course.
7 Q. Naturally enough.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you picked up, presumably, some of the information, albeit one
10 removed, from her that she was being told about the state of tension and
11 fear in the Albanian community in the light of those attacks?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Again, just in broad terms, can you give us a sense of the
14 reaction of the Albanian community immediately after those attacks in the
15 area around where they occurred?
16 A. Yes. People were quite agitated, and as I said, there was a long
17 queue in front of literally every -- every compound, because people wanted
18 to express their condolences. Also, another person who was -- I can't
19 say -- "host" is perhaps not the right word, but the person who was from
20 the Council for the Defence of Human Rights and Freedoms from that area
21 and who was actually taking us to these different households and families,
22 he has warned me that it would be better if I didn't speak Serbian because
23 people were very agitated, they were -- some were naturally quite -- quite
24 frustrated because people had died, and so I didn't. So I kept quiet and
25 I was just going around as this man was taking us.
1 Q. But you saw the villages?
2 A. Yes, sir, I did.
3 Q. Just help us, if you can, about this: On -- in the "Spotlight"
4 report - I don't ask you to turn it up at the moment - but in the
5 "Spotlight" report there is a reference to an HLC researcher who toured
6 the Ahmeti property on the 2nd of March and saw scrawled on the walls the
7 words: "This is what will happen next time, too."
8 Now, did you see those words on the walls? Do you remember?
9 A. I can't recollect, really.
10 Q. Very well. Very well. Now, generally, I think, although later
11 on, you were investigating alleged crimes against Albanians as well --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- initially, at this point in time, there was a division of
14 function between you, was there not?
15 A. Yes, pretty much.
16 Q. You were really tasked to concentrate on Serbs, Serb civilians?
17 A. Yes, sir, I was.
18 Q. And your Albanian-speaking colleague was tasked to concentrate on
19 Albanian victims of alleged crimes?
20 A. Yes, sir, that was correct.
21 Q. And obviously for us to get a full picture, then, of the sense of
22 tension on both sides of the community, one would need to have some sense
23 of what was being told not just to you but also to her?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Both of you, then, would be filing your reports.
1 A. Yes, sir.
2 Q. And in some of the "Spotlight" reports, they're then brought
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And as we'll see in a little while, sometimes you're getting one
6 account of an event --
7 A. Mmm.
8 Q. -- and she's getting a completely different account --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- and the HLC will put the two together in a report and say,
11 Well, this side says this or this group of people say that and they're in
12 contradiction to one another?
13 A. Yes, pretty much.
14 Q. Yes. Now can I just ask you this, then: From your observations
15 or from what people told you, at this time of heightened tension, after
16 Likoshan, after Qirez, after Prekaz, even, can you confirm that really
17 quite a large part of the community on both sides carried weapons, had
18 weapons in their homes and carried weapons, hunting rifles and so on?
19 A. I would say yes because it was -- I'm from a city, and I was quite
20 surprised how many people actually had hunting rifles.
21 Q. I mean, we can see from your notes that really quite a lot of the
22 Serbian people you spoke to had weapons in their homes.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And so as these levels of tension were increasing, ordinary
25 Albanian citizens had weapons and so did their Serb neighbours who they
1 were living next door to?
2 A. Well, I suppose.
3 Q. Well, I mean from your own --
4 A. Yeah. Those where it is mentioned, then I could say, Yes, people
5 said they had. Did everyone have? I --
6 Q. I can't ask you to make an assessment like that.
7 A. Thank you.
8 Q. But from your own interviews, you found people who were saying, I
9 have guns at my house and my neighbour, who is Albanian, has guns at his
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you have examples of them saying, My neighbour shot at me and
13 I shot at him, shot back at him in one instance, I think?
14 A. Yeah, it could be. I think so. I can't recall now.
15 Q. I'll take you that, if I may --
16 A. I'm not sure about neighbours --
17 Q. -- as an example.
18 A. Yeah, okay.
19 Q. I don't want to confuse you.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. And to be fair, I'll take you --
22 A. Thank you.
23 Q. -- to the specific examples I'm referring to from the passages
24 that Mr. Re has already referred you to.
25 Can I then come to the second visit at the end of March/the
1 beginning of April.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, you travelled, you've told us, to Ratishe and you've
4 described a number of instances in which people told you about shooting
5 incidents where there were no casualties and the people concerned, the
6 people you spoke to, didn't generally know who was responsible because
7 these things had happened at night.
8 A. Mm-hmm.
9 Q. And against that background, can we just look at one or two of the
10 examples that Mr. Re took you to.
11 First of all - and for this I'm afraid we have to use the binder -
12 could we look, please, first of all, at notebook 1, at page 32 to 33.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson --
14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- I take it that we're dealing with the first
16 section now, then. Perhaps ...
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Is that in the first section, just after the cover
19 page with a lot of names and then the first -- is that --
20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Because we have different -- that is where the ERN
22 numbers are in grey?
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. It's the one at the very bottom. It refers
24 to "blue notebook, volume 1" --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. EMMERSON: -- and then some ERN numbers. That's the first
2 major page section.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That will now already get a P number --
4 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Because it was --
6 Madam Registrar, this, and I'll make that clear, this first
7 section we find in the binder, which is notebook 1, draft translated, not
8 in ERN sequential order but, as we understand from the Prosecution, the
9 right chronological order of the original, that gets number ...?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P3,
11 marked for identification.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, in order to avoid whatever confusion. At the
13 bottom, it says: "Blue Notebook, Volume 1," not preceded by the name
14 "Andjelkovic" as we find it in the third section --
15 MR. EMMERSON: Correct.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- where it's preceded by the name. So that is
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. EMMERSON:
20 Q. If you could just have a look at page 32, and this records your
21 interviews that you were taken to by Mr. Re with the -- with Mr. and
22 Mrs. Culafic --
23 A. Culafic.
24 Q. Culafic, I'm sorry. Do correct my pronunciation because I'm bound
25 to make mistakes -- in Ratishe. And they described an incident to you
1 that occurred at -- I just want to look. We see a passage beginning:
2 "Wife," just immediately under the underlined words at the top of page 32.
3 Do you have that? Yes.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So that's -- you're speaking to Mrs. Culafic?
6 A. That is what she said.
7 Q. Yes. And then there's a passage beginning: "Nastadin," the
8 following paragraph, which is, I think, is you speaking to her husband?
9 A. Yes, that is the husband.
10 Q. And then over the page, at the bottom of page 33, the last
11 paragraph is headed: "Wife," and that's again, I think, you speaking to
12 the wife again?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can I just ask you to read to yourself, looking back at page 32 at
15 the first full paragraph, about halfway down, can you find the sentence in
16 the middle of the paragraph: "My sons wanted to kill them ..."
17 It's on page 32, first full paragraph --
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Line 6.
19 MR. EMMERSON:
20 Q. -- line 6, right in the middle of that first full paragraph: "My
21 sons wanted to kill them."
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Yes. Can you just -- just read to yourself the next three or four
24 lines, down to the one -- the words: "He says it's his land." I think
25 your finger has drafted a little further. Just down to where it says --
1 where she's referring to somebody who is claiming the land is his. Do you
2 have that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then if we just turn over the page to the other passage
5 involving the wife there, a name is given. There's a reference to rocks
6 being thrown at night, and then a name is given, Lulaj Zajma.
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. It says: "This was his land. We bought a hectare and 24 acres.
9 We got the forest from the monarchy," and so on. Yes.
10 What -- looking at those two passages together, what was
11 Mrs. Culafic telling you about the person who had, she believed, was
12 responsible for this attack?
13 A. To be honest, sir, I'm not even sure that she was referring to the
14 person --
15 Q. I see.
16 A. -- who was actually responsible for the attack. I think this was
17 more general -- as I understood it at the time and as he says it, I think
18 it was more in general, that this may have been somebody who had owned the
19 land in the 1940s or--
20 Q. I see.
21 A. -- I think that's what -- sometimes -- and, you know, and this
22 just shows that I'm not a detective --
23 Q. No, no, and--
24 A. -- because I would ask immediately who --
25 Q. I'm just trying to understand the significance of that to what
1 they're describing, because she seems to be relating it in the passage
2 that you've recorded to the incident that occurred, whether there was some
3 long-standing problem between her and her neighbour.
4 A. I think that what -- I'm not sure if I was clear yesterday or at
5 any point today. I was there to record -- I would be going out in the
6 field, and I was there to record what people said. I wasn't
7 cross-checking --
8 Q. Yes, well that was -- I was going to come back to that. You're
9 not there to investigate whether what they're telling you is the truth?
10 A. No, and I wasn't there to investigate who the person that is
11 mentioned was or whether they had any troubles with neighbours over land.
12 Q. No. I --
13 A. I'm sorry to cause this confusion.
14 Q. Not at all. Not at all. It's a matter of absolute clarification,
15 in fact, that that was not part of your function when you were -- you were
16 taking what people told you --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- people who were upset --
19 A. Pretty much.
20 Q. -- people who -- in a period of heightened tension on both sides,
21 with a lot of people with guns, you were taking what people were saying to
22 you at face value at that, perfectly properly, but reporting it back?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Yes. And then if we just turn over to page 38, the other -- the
25 next passage, I think, that Mr. Re took you to, an interview with the
1 family Delic. Do you have that? Just the top of page 38, on the 3rd of
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And I'll get the pronunciation of the village wrong if I say it
5 before you do, so perhaps you could tell us exactly how to pronounce it.
6 A. I think it's pronounced Lug Bunar.
7 Q. Llug Bunar. And again, this is an example. This is a gentleman
8 at his home who told you that he heard dogs outside, he heard a rush
9 towards the orchard, he saw two men in the orchard. They fired, you've
10 written, three or four shells; yes?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But then you say: "He took his hunting rifle and fired a shell in
13 their direction."
14 A. Yes, that's what he said.
15 Q. By the word "shell" -- I mean, it may be that there's a
16 translation issue here, but do you mean bullets?
17 A. I think it is a translation.
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. As I recall, it was bullets rather than ...
20 Q. Yes. And that was just an example I was giving you of -- where
21 there had been an exchange of fire, people with a lot of weapons shooting
22 at one another. And you say, I think, a little further down: "Shell
23 casings were found." So I think it's clear we're talking about bullets?
24 A. Bullets, yeah, I would say.
25 Q. And a little further on, pages 39 and 40, Fatic, Radenko Fatic and
1 some yarn. This was an interview where he told you in terms that it was
2 his next-door neighbour.
3 A. Yes. Yes, he said it was his next-door neighbour.
4 Q. And he told you that he had told his next-door neighbour that he
5 saw him?
6 A. Yes, and -- but he told me that he was not going to tell --
7 Q. He wasn't going to tell you the name. He told you that he didn't
8 know if there was anybody other than his next-door neighbour involved.
9 A. No, I don't recall that he said anyone else.
10 Q. I think he told you that he didn't know whether it was --
11 A. No.
12 Q. -- there was anybody else. You see, just towards the bottom: "I
13 don't know if there were more people. We only saw him." Very bottom of
14 page 39, Ms. Andjelkovic. "I don't know if there were more people. We
15 only saw him."
16 A. Right.
17 Q. And then you've recorded a name at the top of page 40 in that
18 context, and I just wondered what the significance of that name,
19 Sacir Bekir, is in that context?
20 A. I don't recall, to be honest.
21 Q. Can I ask you: Might it be that the found out the name of the
22 neighbour from somebody else?
23 A. I wouldn't say -- I mean, I would really have to look at the notes
24 and see exactly where it was.
25 Q. It might, in fact, be helpful if you did that for us.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. Why don't we do it.
2 THE WITNESS: I can't promise you that I will recall.
3 MR. EMMERSON:
4 Q. No, of course. Of course. I'm not -- I wouldn't expect it for a
6 JUDGE ORIE: Do you have a copy of the notes with you?
7 THE WITNESS: Of course I don't.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think they are on e-court, under P1, I think
9 it is.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: We have the ERN number.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: U0030209.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Would it be the most efficient use of time if I
14 continued to --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and let the registrar find the document
16 meanwhile --
17 MR. EMMERSON: -- cross-examine, we try to find the passage that's
18 the equivalent --
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The next page, 210.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Because it's very, very close to the end of that
21 first notebook. It's within the last couple of pages of the notebook.
22 Q. I mean, it may be that you can find it yourself, can you? Do you
23 have it there, no?
24 A. No, this is a translation.
25 Q. Fine. Let's see if we can find it for you and come back to that
2 Can I then ask you about the inquiries that were going on whilst
3 you were speaking to these people, the inquiries that were being conducted
4 by your Albanian-speaking colleague. Just let me put something to you,
5 because we have the report so it's not difficult to piece the chronology
7 So I think while you were conducting those inquiries, she was
8 collecting statements from villagers in Gllogjan about the police
9 operation that had been mounted there on the 24th of March. That's right,
10 isn't it?
11 A. Yes, I think so.
12 Q. I think you weren't there in Gllogjan --
13 A. No, I wasn't.
14 Q. -- but she was and that's what she was doing.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I think we'll see in due course that there are very many more
17 statements in the HLC's possession from Albanians who were - if I can use
18 this term loosely - victims of the police operation on the 24th of March
19 than the rather small number of statements you took from the Stojanovic
20 family members?
21 A. Yes, I believe so.
22 Q. There were 28 or so statements considered by the HLC in all in
23 preparing "Spotlight" report 26 that we've looked at?
24 A. I don't remember the exact number.
25 Q. Well, it's remembered to in the report, so if I'm wrong, I'm sure
1 I'll be corrected. I think she was working really from a much earlier
2 stage --
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. -- on the 24th of March investigation than you were?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And presumably, though, on your journey --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson --
8 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- may I remind you of one thing --
10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- We were taught during the lessons we followed,
12 both of us, that if you're speaking the same language, that you should
13 make a pause between answer and question.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I apologise.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. EMMERSON:
17 Q. So presumably, whilst you were travelling back together to
18 Prishtina, you would have discussed with her what the products of her
19 inquiry was?
20 A. I think it was a bit later actually when we filed reports, not
22 Q. Very well. But over the period of time that you were working with
23 your Albanian-speaking colleague, you would have picked up from her,
24 broadly speaking, what it was she was filing reports about in relation to
25 the 24th of March?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And, again, I don't want to take you in detail to the "Spotlight"
3 report, but could we just very quickly look at the passage that deals with
5 MR. EMMERSON: It's -- so we're now -- need a new P number for the
6 section at the end of this bundle which contains the two "Spotlight"
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we'll do it in the order in which they
9 were presented.
10 MR. EMMERSON: I see.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That means we first go to the second section with
12 this draft translation, second notebook, ERN number sequential. That
13 would be --
14 Madam Registrar, would be ...?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this would be Exhibit Number P4,
16 marked for identification.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then we have the next one, a series of
18 translations, or at least English versions of incident reports ranging
19 from e20glodj.doc numbering down to e2glodj.doc and then followed by
20 e23glodj.doc, e22glodg.doc, and e21glodj.doc. That series would have what
21 number, Madam Registrar?
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, the incident reports would have
23 Exhibit Number P5, marked for identification.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 Then we now come to the relevant section, that is two "Spotlight"
1 reports numbered 26 and 27, in English; 26, pages 1 to 24, ERN numbers
2 00649667 and then numbering upwards, up to and including 690, last three
3 digits; and "Spotlight" report 27, pages 1 to 24, ERN numbers K0078701 up
4 to 713, the ERN numbers usually containing two -- two printed pages under
5 one ERN number. So, therefore, we're now referring to these --
6 Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, these two "Spotlight" reports will
8 be P6, marked for identification.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you're referring to P6.
10 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.
11 MR. EMMERSON: And I think, if it helps to have them on the screen
12 at the same time, the relevant report --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether they have been uploaded
15 MR. EMMERSON: We've uploaded them.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You've uploaded them?
17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, fine.
19 MR. EMMERSON: So it's document identification 1D978 at page 11.
20 I'm sorry, page -- 1D988. I apologise. So document 1D978 at 1D988. And
21 if we can just zoom in on the paragraph beneath the heading there, beneath
22 the -- I'm sorry, we're on the wrong page. No -- that's fine. That's
24 Q. Looking at the references to the 24th of March itself there, we
25 can see the statements - this is the second paragraph - made to HLC
1 researchers by 28 witnesses; yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Suggested that on the 24th of March, Serbian police officers
4 killed in flight three Kosovar Albanians, shelled houses in which unarmed
5 civilians had taken cover, placed in jeopardy the lives of children,
6 women, and arrested persons in order to defend themselves, and used the
7 house of the only non-Albanian family as a military facility."
8 Yes? Do you know who they're referring to when they say there,
9 "the house of the only non-Albanian family there was used as a military
11 A. The only house that this may be is the house of family Stojanovic.
12 Q. Stojanovic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. And if we just go to the following page, I think what
15 we can see, just going up a little --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could speakers please slow down.
17 MR. EMMERSON:
18 Q. We see in the second paragraph there reference to the accounts
19 given to your Albanian-speaking colleague, I think; yes?
20 A. Mm-hmm, yes.
21 Q. And in the third paragraph there, reference to the account given
22 by the witnesses you spoke to.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then in the fourth paragraph, a statement by the Serbian
25 ministry 1 of Internal Affairs; yes?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So all of that material, contradictory material, I think, in terms
3 of how the incident began was before the HLC in the preparation of this
4 report and put together in that way?
5 A. Right. But, again, I have to say the summary reports like this
6 would usually be based on the interviews that people like me did in the
7 field --
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. -- for better or for worse, and then they would be put together
10 with different other information --
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. -- that was available by people who were lawyers at the HLC.
13 Q. Yes, yes.
14 A. So they would then put a report and publish it.
15 Q. Very well. That's very helpful. Rather than go through the
16 headings on the screen, in this particular instance, it's probably just
17 easier if we turn the pages in the bundle to see the headings there,
18 between pages 11 through to 16.
19 And can I deal with it generically in this way: What people who
20 had made statements to your Albanian-speaking colleague were saying - and
21 we have the reports but without taking time to go through them all -
22 essentially came down to this, I think: First of all, that police began
23 by firing on two men. That was the account, by and large, that was being
24 given by the Albanian witnesses that your Albanian-speaking colleague
25 spoke to; yes?
1 A. I don't recall, really. I would have to read the reports again.
2 Q. Very well. In that case, I'm not going to -- I'm not going to
3 press you. We can read the summary for ourselves. I'm not going to press
4 you in that case.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, just for the record, since we relied on
6 P6, it is the report number 26 you were referring to.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Because there are two reports.
9 MR. EMMERSON: There are two reports.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
11 MR. EMMERSON:
12 Q. Can you help me about this: From what your Albanian-speaking
13 colleague told you, did you understand that there was a general perception
14 in the village that this was -- this had been a major assault on the town,
15 on the village of Gllogjan?
16 A. From the interview that she did?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. As I recall, I think it was.
19 Q. Yes. And do you recall her mentioning to you that there were
20 allegations that Serb forces went on a rampage in the village?
21 A. Rampage? Maybe that would be too strong a word at that stage.
22 Q. I see.
23 A. And I don't recall that anyone exactly described it like that.
24 Q. But there were allegations, weren't there, of a group of
25 teenagers, either three or four, being shot as they were running away?
1 A. Yes, that was -- that was what came out from --
2 Q. Of Serb military helicopters firing on civilians from the air --
3 well, if it's not something you remember, just say so. It's in the
4 report. We can look at it --
5 A. I'm sorry, I don't remember.
6 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind both of you. Apart from the speed of
7 your speech, it seems that you're now and then, if you're satisfied with
8 the answer, you already speak at the same time when the witness has not
9 fully completed. You also, if there seems to be some understanding, you
10 interrupt. If people are speaking at the same time, our court reporters
11 are totally unable to record that.
12 THE WITNESS: Sorry, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
14 MR. EMMERSON:
15 Q. And there were allegations that quite large numbers of people were
16 arrested and ill-treated by the Serb police immediately afterwards, I
18 A. Yes. That, I remember. That, I remember from -- from the reports
19 and from what my colleagues were saying, that there was a fairly large
20 group of people were rounded up at first.
21 Q. And that school children were used by the Serb forces as a human
23 A. I know there was something about a school, but I really --
24 Q. I mean, again, we can see that -- the passage in the report. And
25 that houses in the village were shelled?
1 A. Shelled? What do you mean when you say "shelled"?
2 Q. Well, that they were attacked with heavy weapons and inside the
3 village of Gllogjan.
4 A. I cannot recall heavy weapons. I do recall that there was
5 fighting and there was -- that there was another -- that police sent
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. But I really can't recall.
9 Q. For present purposes, that's all I need to ask you about that.
10 I'll come back to its relevance, if I may, to some of your other
11 inquiries, in a few moments.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I have to remind both of you, I wouldn't say bad
13 habits, but at least it's difficult to control this. Please proceed.
14 MR. EMMERSON:
15 Q. Coming back now, then, to the 9th of April visit, to the
16 interviews you conducted on the 9th of April, I think you've told us that
17 on that occasion you travelled to Gjakova by bus from Prishtina; is that
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Yes?
21 A. Yes, I went to Gjakova.
22 Q. And what route would the bus take you to Gjakova?
23 A. Actually, I have to -- I would have to say that I don't recall
24 exactly whether I went on a direct bus or I went via Peje, because that
25 was another --
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. -- that was another option.
3 Q. So you could have gone Peje?
4 A. I could have gone Prishtina, Peje, and then changed in Peje to
6 Q. Which would be -- which would take you along the main road --
7 A. Yeah, main road.
8 Q. -- and through Decani?
9 A. Through Decani, definitely.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. And, actually, I'm not -- now I can't tell whether it was --
12 Q. Very well.
13 A. -- that I went all the way to Gjakova or I got out in Decan,
14 because there were interviews that I conducted in Decan.
15 Q. Okay. But certainly you saw no evidence along the road of it
16 being closed by the KLA?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And you then, on that occasion, the 9th of April occasion,
19 conducted your interviews with Vladimir Stojanovic and his mother - and
20 again if I've got my pronunciation wrong, tell me - Ljubica?
21 A. Ljubica.
22 Q. Ljubica.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that was when you received an account of how the incident
25 began that was --
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. -- in conflict with the account that had been given to you --
3 given to the HLC through your Albanian-speaking colleague?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, can we look briefly at the -- at the record that you filed
6 for the interview with Vladimir Stojanovic. And we can have it on the
7 screen as a doc. -- Defence doc. ID 1D1255. We have it in the file as
8 e4glodj.doc. E4glodj.doc. And if we can just --
9 JUDGE ORIE: And that's part of P5.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. EMMERSON:
13 Q. First of all, these glodj.doc numbers, they weren't presumably put
14 on by you and your Albanian-speaking colleague?
15 A. No, sir.
16 Q. They were put on by the HLC, which explains why they don't run in
17 sequence for you.
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Yes. And this was an interview, we can see - I don't ask to turn
20 it over on the screen at the moment - but we can see in the paper version,
21 this was an interview conducted on the 9th of April, the report was filed
22 on the 9th of April, and it related to an incident which is recorded there
23 as the 14th of September, 1997. Now, I know what you're going to say.
24 You dealt with two things in this statement. You dealt with something
25 that had happened in September 1997, and you also dealt with the events of
1 the 24th of March.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, I want to ask you about the 24th of March passage.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Could we look at the second page where the body of
5 the statement is set out, which is 1256.
6 Q. Can you see the third paragraph, beginning "We called Decan on the
7 radio ..."
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. " ... on the radio-phone we have in the house, but they had
10 already been informed about what was going on." Yes?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In short, the allegation that Vladimir Stojanovic was making was
13 that the police were fired on first; is that right?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And the allegation that was being made by the Albanian side of the
16 community was that the police had fired on two men, and that is how the
17 incident had begun?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Yes. If we just look through that first passage, "We called Decan
20 on the radio-phone we have in the house but they had already been informed
21 about what was going on." There's a reference then at 10.30 a.m. to
22 "those in the neighbour's house" firing rockets. "The shooting lasted
23 for 15 minutes. Then the police arrived and came into our yard from where
24 they opened fire at the Haradinaj house."
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, when reading, speed goes up always.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. EMMERSON:
3 Q. You can see that passage?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Stojanovic was telling you that the police were shooting
6 at the Haradinaj compound from his property?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. What I understood, and if I recall when I talked to him, he
10 claimed that they were in the house, and I think his mother said something
11 similar, that they -- when they heard shooting first, he ushered them all
12 into their house --
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. -- and then the police came into the yard.
15 Q. And it's very close to the Haradinaj family compound, isn't it?
16 A. That seems to be, but I can't say but I haven't been --
17 Q. And you've never been there because you interviewed them -- you
18 interviewed them in Decan?
19 A. He was in Decan when I interviewed him.
20 Q. So one thing he was clearly telling you, though, is that police
21 forces were firing on the Haradinaj compound from his property; yes?
22 A. That is -- that is what he says, and that -- what he said at the
23 time, that is, according to -- to the record.
24 Q. Yes. Now, he told you about a rocket being fired out from the
25 Haradinaj compound towards the police, I think; is that right?
1 A. Yeah, that's what it says here.
2 Q. Did he tell you that the police were firing rockets into the
3 Haradinaj compound, or is that something that he left out of his account?
4 A. I -- I don't recall that, because I would have certainly noted
5 that. Most of the things, again, I have to say, I noted verbatim.
6 Q. Yes. So if he left that -- if that's not in your notes, it's
7 because he deliberately chose not to tell you about that.
8 A. That -- that would probably be the case.
9 Q. Yes. And then there's a reference a little further down to the
10 fact that there was a helicopter overhead. Do you see that? It's the --
11 yes? Towards the bottom of that main paragraph on the screen?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. Going back to the reference to a radio-telephone, can I ask you
14 this: Do you know what somebody meant by radio-telephone?
15 A. I'm sorry?
16 Q. Did you understand what he meant by radio-telephone?
17 A. I wasn't -- I'm not sure. I'm not sure I did. I'm not sure
18 whether -- what sort of phone that was, whether that was a radio or -- I
19 really don't know.
20 Q. Yes. I mean, if it was a radio, I mean, were radios, as far as you
21 could observe, in common usage in western Kosovo for civilians?
22 A. I wouldn't know, sir. I haven't been to that many houses.
23 Q. Can I ask you --
24 A. Those houses.
25 Q. -- did this gentleman or his mother tell you one way or the other
1 whether any members of the family worked for the police?
2 A. Yes, there was -- one of the brothers was with the police force, I
3 understood, in Gjakova. I think it was in Gjakova. I'm not sure.
4 Q. Yes. And, again, can you confirm this, that when you interviewed
5 Mrs. Stojanovic, one of the things that she was keen to tell you is that
6 the perception in the village and in the newspapers that she and the
7 Stojanovics had been regularly informing on the Haradinaj family to the
8 police wasn't true?
9 A. I'm sorry, could you ...
10 Q. Let's take it -- I'll break the question down into stages.
11 A. Thank you.
12 Q. Do you recall being told by Mrs. Stojanovic that there were
13 reports, including newspaper reports, that their property was being used
14 by the police as a place from which to maintain observations on the
15 Haradinaj family compound and provide information?
16 A. If I could --
17 Q. Yes, absolutely, please turn to the report.
18 A. If I could turn --
19 Q. It's immediately afterwards. If you look at the last paragraph on
20 page 2. It's obviously a summary, but just five lines up: "The
21 newspapers wrote that the first shots came from my house and that I told
22 the police about what is going on in the village," and she denies that?
23 A. Yes. Yes.
24 Q. I mean, either from the Stojanovics or from the inquiries that you
25 made through your -- or your Albanian colleague made, did you come to
1 understand that there was a view commonly held in the village that the
2 Stojanovics had or were, in part, responsible for that assault on the
4 A. I cannot really -- I cannot make judgement one way or another.
5 Q. Very well.
6 A. What Mrs. Stojanovic told me was that -- what she said was there
7 was that perception, but she had also claimed that she had fairly good
8 relations with her neighbours --
9 Q. Yes.
10 A. -- for years.
11 Q. I'll make it up to you that I'm certainly not asking you to
12 comment on whether it was the truth or not. You can't possibly do that.
13 But she did tell you, I think you've just confirmed, that there was a
14 perception --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- that the Stojanovic home had been a place from which
17 information was provided to the police and then the position from which
18 the assault was first launched on the Haradinaj compound, that that was a
20 A. Are we talking in general or are we talking about a single
21 incident? I'm not now quite clear.
22 Q. Well, again it's my fault completely for putting too long a
23 question, and I'll break it into stages. You've confirmed, I think, a
24 moment ago, you said to me, "that was the perception."
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now, the perception was, as I understand it - correct me if I've
2 got this wrong - the perception was that the Stojanovic house had been
3 used by the police as a place from which to observe the Haradinaj
4 family -- the Haradinaj family compound, first of all.
5 A. From -- from her statement --
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. -- that appears to be. But I cannot say whether it was my
9 Q. And secondly, it is true, according to them, that their house was,
10 in fact, used to launch the assault on the Haradinaj compound, because the
11 police officers were firing, as you just told us a moment ago, according
12 to Mr. Stojanovic, on the Haradinaj compound from their property.
13 A. Yes, from their property.
14 Q. From their property?
15 A. I'm not sure about the house --
16 Q. No.
17 A. -- but from their property.
18 Q. And you've told us one member of the family was in the police, and
19 I just want to ask you again: The radio-telephone, did you understand
20 that to have been something that had been specially provided to the
21 Stojanovics; and if so, by whom?
22 A. I really can't answer that because I don't know.
23 Q. Finally this, on this statement: I think it's right that Vladimir
24 Stojanovic told you - this is the second-to-last paragraph on the first
25 page of the statement, the main text, beginning "After the clash ..." -
1 Mr. Stojanovic, Vladimir, told you that immediately afterwards at least,
2 the family were going back on a daily basis?
3 A. Yes, that is what they said.
4 Q. Yes, yes. Of course, during that time quite a lot of people in
5 the village had evacuated, hadn't they, in Gllogjan, after the 24th of
6 March; is that right?
7 A. Actually, I don't think so.
8 Q. You don't think so.
9 A. It was a month later, I think.
10 Q. Well, we'll come to -- that's not an issue I'm going to ask you
11 about, the end of May. But you don't think people left Gllogjan on the
12 24th of March, when the police attacked the village?
13 A. Oh. Left Glodjane?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. Who? I'm sorry.
16 Q. The Albanian community of Gllogjan.
17 A. They -- they were displaced, I understood, at the time, but -- but
18 I can't say where because I didn't interview people at that time.
19 Q. Mrs. Stojanovic, she told you, I think --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I seek one clarification.
21 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You just said "They were displaced, I understood, at
23 the time ..." What did you exactly mean? Because Mr. Emmerson was earlier
24 referring to a specific date, which was the 24th of March.
25 THE WITNESS: Right.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Did you tell us that they were displaced already
2 prior to that, or on that day, or that -- it's not entirely clear to me.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm sorry if I haven't been clear, because
4 this is, A --
5 MR. EMMERSON: Please don't apologise.
6 THE WITNESS: -- years ago, and then, B, there were a lot
7 throughout the period, so that may, you know, affect what and how I
8 answer, and I apologise because I've never done this before.
9 There were times when people would be displaced because there was
10 shooting and there was an incident, and then when things calmed down, they
11 would come back. That was the pattern for quite a few months in Kosovo
13 MR. EMMERSON:
14 Q. And I think what you're confirming is that, following the police
15 assault on the village of Gllogjan, quite a lot of the Albanian community
16 left and were displaced for a time.
17 A. I seem to remember that that was the case.
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. According to -- to the reports of my colleagues.
20 Q. Yes, yes. And Mrs. Stojanovic, Ljubica Stojanovic, could we just
21 look very briefly at her witness statement again, or the report you filed
22 for her.
23 MR. EMMERSON: This is Defence doc. identification D11252 at
24 1253. Just one point I wanted to ask you about there.
25 Q. If one looks at the passage three lines down from the top. Sorry,
1 it's not quite loaded yet. Do you have the paper copy?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Yes. Whilst it's loading, perhaps I can ask you some questions
4 from the paper copy. Mr. Re asked you about a group of men who she told
5 you had stopped her son Dragoslav - so it's the following page, please.
6 Following page; lovely, thank you very much. I'm in the first paragraph,
7 third line down. She told you that her son Dragoslav had been stopped at
8 the end of February by a group of men who were armed and who took his
9 pistol and then gave it back to him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And I think she told you that after searching him, they made him
12 sign a piece of paper saying that they'd given the gun back; yes?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Did she tell you whether any of the other male members of the
15 family carried guns?
16 A. No. I don't recall.
17 Q. Very well.
18 A. No.
19 Q. I want to move on now, if I may, to the end of April, and you were
20 asked about that visit and some of the statements that you made on the
21 20th of April, or around about the time of that -- of that visit. Could I
22 ask you to look, please, in your diary.
23 MR. EMMERSON: And this will be P3, that's notebook 1, and I could
24 be wrong about that, in fact. I'm sorry. No, it's not, it's P4,
25 notebook 2, at page 15.
1 Q. Now, you were asked about an elderly gentleman who you said had
2 told you that he was detained in Gllogjan; yes?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I just want to look at what you recorded in your notebook. This
5 is at page 15, just a bit below halfway. "What is going on now, you know
6 better. I dropped my something. If I did something wrong, where are your
7 sons to fight? We would like to have a free village. They released us."
8 "They urgently released us," is what the translation says, what that is a
9 reference to. And for me this is the second one. Then he said this:
10 "They didn't do anything to the women. They said they would not do
11 anything to the elderly. They transferred us to Irzniq by tractor. We
12 would meet patrols every 200 metres, but they didn't say anything to us.
13 This happened on Wednesday. My son went to the village for me. They did
14 not hit me." Yes?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. So those were your notes as to what he was telling you at that
18 A. Yes, that's what -- what the old man, Mr. Stijovic, told me at the
20 Q. I just wanted to ask you very briefly, if I could, about how that
21 then comes into the incident report, because we can see -- I mean, you've
22 made a very clear statement there that, first of all, that they didn't hit
24 A. It is not my statement, sir. It is the note of the statement of
25 Mr. Stijovic.
1 Q. A very clear record of his statement to you --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- that he was not hit?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that he was given reassurance, in effect?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If we could just look very briefly at the equivalent report that
8 you filed, which is -- just bear with me one moment. It's e19glodj, which
9 is not in the system, which is why I don't have a Defence identification
10 for it because it was one of the documents served for the first time in
11 that form, I think, last night.
12 Can I just ask you about this: This is an interview that's
13 recorded as having taken place on the 25th of April in respect of an
14 incident on the 22nd of April, filed as a report on the 27th of April. If
15 we could just look at the second page --
16 A. If you would --
17 Q. Do you have it?
18 A. -- please tell me -- I have it, I'm sure. But what am I looking
20 Q. I'm sorry, you're looking in that part of the bundle that contains
21 your incident reports, and you're looking at e19glodj.doc, which is the
22 equivalent passage to your -- the passage of your notes that we've just
23 looked at. And if we just look three paragraphs down, we see that the
24 passage that we've just -- or something -- something equivalent to the
25 passage we've just looked at.
1 I just wanted to check this: In terms of the possibility of
2 errors creeping in from time to time, in the second paragraph, do you see
3 the reference, about halfway down, "They hit me on the head a few times"?
4 A. "And my cap fell off."
5 Q. Yes. Do you understand how that --
6 A. Yes, okay, I understand -- I'm not sure I understand how, because
7 you have to understand, this is a translation.
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. The filed reports are a translation of the reports, and I have --
10 really, I had no access to my reports once they were filed. I mean, I did
11 have access, but this was in 1998. He used a very peculiar word to say
12 that his cap fell, and I do remember because it was such a peculiar word,
13 I remember it would -- literally it would say "they injured my cap a
14 little bit." This is why I remember.
15 Q. Thank you. Thank you for the clarification.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. On this same visit, you interviewed Mijat Stojanovic [sic].
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. EMMERSON: And if we can have a look at Defence doc.
20 identification 1D1008, and we have it in the paper copy as eglodj --
21 e10glodj.doc. Sorry.
22 Q. Now, I just want you to pause for a moment because you gave us
23 some evidence yesterday which I want to try to clarify with you, because
24 we obviously have not got all your incident reports, but do we have all
25 your notebooks, as far as you can tell?
1 A. I don't know, really.
2 Q. Very well. Very well. But you thought at one point, you said you
3 thought you might have interviewed the cousin in relation to this incident
4 and you might have interviewed Dragoslav some time much later on?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I just want to ask you about this interview. This is the only one
7 for which we have a record, which is both in your notebook and in the
8 incident report that you've filed.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You said yesterday that the first time you heard the name
11 Haradinaj was in connection with this incident where the two Stojanovic
12 brothers and their cousin had been taken from a house to another house and
13 beaten and questioned, and that a man by the name of Haradinaj, who seemed
14 to be in authority, was coming in and out of the room?
15 A. Yes. That was the first time that I heard the name.
16 Q. So that would be this report, because this was the first one?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Yes. So just so that we're clear, because at least we know now
19 what the precise source of that comment was; yes?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And if we could just look, please. You've listed in the incident
22 report the victim identification on the first page, Mijat Stojanovic, the
23 person making the statement to you, Dragoslav Stojanovic, and Veselin
24 Stojanovic; yes?
25 A. Yes, they would -- they were the --
1 Q. Stijovic, I'm sorry.
2 A. -- that travelled. Stijovic, yeah. Yes.
3 Q. And then you've listed alleged perpetrator information. Nasim
4 Haradinaj; yes?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Just pause for a moment. Over the page, Nemonaj, I can't read
7 what that's supposed to say, but somebody called Nemonaj; yes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And then unidentified Liberation Army of Kosova members; yes?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, if we can just drop down in the body of the statement a
12 little bit to look at the second and third main paragraphs on the first
13 page, where the account is related, if we just -- if we can just pick up
14 about seven or eight lines up from the bottom, can you see a sentence
15 beginning "When Nasim Haradinaj came in ..."
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. "When Nasim Haradinaj came in, the beatings stopped. He said to
18 them not to beat us, but they went on anyway." Yes?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And a little further down, the following paragraph: "They took us
21 upstairs. We laid down on the concrete floor. Nasim ordered us to get
22 up. They offered us cigarettes and coffee"; yes?"
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. "Nasim said they weren't allowed to beat us."
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Yes. And then over the page, if we can just look at the second
2 page for a moment, third paragraph down begins: "Then Nasim turned up
3 again and said they were letting us go because I'm a Montenegrin." Do you
4 have that? Third paragraph on the second page, first sentence. It
5 begins -- it's on the screen in front of you, if that's easier. I'm
6 sorry, the paragraph comes up different on the screen, I'm told.
7 Can you see a paragraph beginning: "Then Nasim Haradinaj turned
8 up again ..."
9 A. Yes, I can see it.
10 Q. Yes. And to summarise the remainder, Nasim Haradinaj, it is said,
11 then took these three men to Baballoq and released them into an area where
12 there was Serb forces; yes?
13 A. Mm-hmm.
14 Q. Can we just look at the final paragraph where he describes to you
15 those who were there. "90 per cent of them," he said, "were in uniform
16 and had small arms."
17 JUDGE ORIE: We have to move to the next page, yes.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there we are.
20 MR. EMMERSON:
21 Q. Yes?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. "They took their masks off. None of them kept his mask on. They
24 were mostly my neighbours, guys I went to school with, kept company with,
25 shopped in their stores. So I know 95 percent of them. The remaining
1 5 per cent I didn't recognise because they weren't from our parts."
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So in the course of that interview with Mijat Stojanovic, it is
5 clear, is it not, that he made no suggestion that Ramush Haradinaj took
6 part, or any part, in those events or that he was present?
7 A. I just heard the name Haradinaj.
8 Q. Well, it may be important to know who we're talking about, because
9 Haradinaj is a very, very common name in that part of the world, is it
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Is it not?
13 A. Yes, I understand it is.
14 Q. It wasn't Ramush Haradinaj he was talking about, was it? It was
15 perfectly obviously Nasim Haradinaj.
16 A. No, he said Nasim Haradinaj.
17 Q. Yes. And he knew who all of those involved were?
18 A. That's what he claimed, according to the record.
19 Q. Now finally, if I may, this: Can we look at page 17 of your
20 second notebook, briefly, where you've listed a group -- or the names of
21 what were described there as kidnapped Serbs. You said you got this
22 information from somebody called Uros Labovic; yes?
23 A. Yes, Uros Labovic.
24 Q. Just to be clear. You've had a chance to look at your witness
25 statement that you made in this --
1 A. Sorry.
2 Q. No, please don't apologise. If you weren't asked not to, then
3 it's most certainly not your fault. But in that witness statement you
4 make it quite clear that you never met or spoke to anybody who'd witnessed
5 these people being kidnapped.
6 A. No.
7 Q. No. And so when you've used the word "kidnapped Serbs" there, I
8 mean, those are your own personal notes, aren't they?
9 A. Those were -- everybody was talking about kidnappings.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Nobody said abductions or anything else; it was always kidnapping.
12 Q. But nobody you spoke to had seen abductions or kidnappings.
13 A. No.
14 Q. No.
15 A. My understanding even at the time was -- I mean, this is -- people
16 were talking -- I have -- I think, again, I have to explain. When I was
17 taking notes, I would just find the easiest way --
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. -- to do that, because people were talking sometimes fast and I
20 would just jot down these things. And that's -- you won't find them, you
21 know, nicely phrased. The names seem to have been known by almost
22 everyone because these are small communities, but I did hear them from
23 Mr. Labovic.
24 Q. As people who, at that stage, were unaccounted for?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Yes.
2 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, would Your Honour just give me one moment?
3 Just the one point that we left outstanding on the notebook, to
4 determine that -- from the original. I don't know whether it's been
5 possible in the meantime to identify that passage in the original notes.
6 We have an ERN number for the original.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's try to find it.
9 MR. EMMERSON: The ERN number for the page on the original
10 notebook should be U0030210.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we have that on the screen, if possible. It is
12 in P1, so therefore ...
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, there we have it. It might be useful just to
14 look at the previous page first so that the witness can see the context
15 properly. Just at the bottom of the previous page.
16 Q. Were you able to find the reference to Sacir Bekir?
17 MR. EMMERSON: Perhaps we can move to the following page so the
18 witness can see it, the top of the following page.
19 Q. Do you have that there?
20 A. Mm-hmm.
21 Q. Now, do you know, looking at the context, the word in brackets,
22 what is that?
23 A. Oh, it says -- it says "stiganin," that was verbatim. It means
24 gypsy. That's how they called the man.
25 Q. So someone was referring to that man in a derogatory way?
1 A. Yes. Someone was referring to a Roma. I don't know whether --
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. They went it derogatory because that used to be quite common way
4 of referral, and it stayed in some areas --
5 Q. But it's not --
6 A. -- especially amongst the less educated people.
7 Q. It's not your language, though? It's not you putting that?
8 A. No, sir.
9 Q. It's what someone said to you?
10 A. No, sir.
11 Q. Exactly. So my question is: What were you being told is the
12 significance of Sacir Bekir? Is that the man who was the neighbour that
13 is being referred to?
14 A. I can't say.
15 Q. You can't say?
16 A. Really, I don't remember.
17 Q. Is there any other that you can see, looking at it in context, as
18 the author of it, can you see any other reason why you might have referred
19 to that Roma gentleman in the middle of a passage about a neighbour?
20 A. No.
21 Q. No.
22 A. Really, I can't. I'm sorry.
23 Q. Very well. No. Thank you very much, indeed.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I have no further questions.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I am looking at the clock at this moment. I would
1 first like to find out whether, and how much time, other Defence counsel
2 would intend to use for cross-examination. I say this because we've spent
3 now approximately one and a half hours when the initial assessment when I
4 think all three counsel was, I think, one hour and 15 minutes. So
5 therefore my scheduling is a bit disturbed.
6 Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm assuming we're not taking any further breaks?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we have to take a break anyhow because we'll
9 have to -- I mean, we have to change tapes. We can't run on two hours for
10 tapes. And the interpreters.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe -- I believe that I could complete my
14 examination, as I indicated before, I think I said it was within 15 or 20
15 minutes. I believe I can still do the same.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Mr. Harvey.
18 MR. HARVEY: I shall be surprised if I have any questions at all
19 for this witness.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 I know how difficult it is, Mr. Re, to give an assessment on how
22 much -- whether you would, at this moment, intend to re-examine the
23 witness, and how much time that would take, not having heard all of the
24 cross-examination. Could you give us an indication?
25 MR. RE: There's only one thing I wish to ask in clarification at
1 the moment, but there's one other matter I wish to raise, and that is we
2 have another witness outside in the witness room.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, certainly today there's no chance. I mean, we
4 can continue until 7.00. I wonder even whether we can finish your
5 examination today or whether we need a little bit more time.
6 Much depends on you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I understand, Your Honour, and if I might be of
8 any assistance, I have two areas of examination. I know precisely what
9 questions I wish to ask in each area. I'm going to ask to go into private
10 session for about 30 seconds to make sure that no names are violated, and
11 I may well be able to do it even quicker. I will do my best to get it
12 done by the end of this evening, depending how long a break we take.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The problem is that for some rest, of course,
14 the earlier break was a bit longer, what would be the minimum time we
15 could use for a break?
16 Would that be 15 minutes, Madam Registrar? Keeping in mind that
17 we had a break of 50 minutes earlier. Because I have a bad reputation
18 already to continue after 7 and I would want to confirm that.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: I have to ask the interpreters. I think the tape, as
21 such, would not create major problems. At the same time, I don't want to
22 continue without giving you sufficient rest.
23 Mr. Guy-Smith, do you think you could finish in ten minutes?
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Hope springs eternal, but I don't want to commit
25 to ten.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm asking the interpreters whether they would
4 strongly oppose against continuing. You have one escape and that is from
5 now on, in 28 minutes, the tape will be over, so you are not at risk to go
6 beyond 7.00. At the same time, I know that it's much asked from you. I'd
7 like to have an honest response, and I don't want you to be forced into
8 any situation which you'd like not to be in.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours, it is no problem for the
10 interpreters to continue.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
12 Mr. Guy-Smith, you also know that we're running out of the tape if
13 we take too much time, and then that means that we couldn't finish today.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, Your Honour, if we could briefly go into
16 private session for one second.
17 [Private session]
11 Page 668 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Just so we're all clear here, when you used the term "police," you
11 are referring to Serbian police, are you not?
12 A. Yes, the so-called Ministry of the Interior, or MUPs, as they were
14 Q. MUPs.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There were no Albanian police during that time in that period, in
17 that region; correct?
18 A. I cannot claim that, sir. I haven't met any, but I can't say if
19 there were or there were not.
20 Q. Very well.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could get up on the screen, please, that
22 would be P6, which is the "Spotlight" report number 26, and I'm going to
23 be referring to page 13, and the information which is above number 4,
24 "Lull Before the Fresh Clash."
25 THE REGISTRAR: P6 is not yet uploaded in e-court.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry. Then 1D978 - and I do apologise,
2 Madam Registrar - page 13.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH:
5 Q. On page 13 of that report, there is the following information:
6 "Word came to Gramacelj of the attack on neighbouring Glodjane. Teachers
7 dismissed their classes and some 300 children found themselves on the road
8 just as a column of police vehicles, armoured personnel carriers,
9 pinzgauers, and trucks was passing. 14-year-old NV says he was terrified
10 when four vehicles split off from the column and headed toward the
12 And then there's some italicised information there: "The police
13 held their guns aimed at us. We screamed, thinking they were going to
14 kill us. We scattered into the nearby streets. The younger kids kept
15 going around in circles, they were so scared, they didn't know where to
16 run, and they were crying. I was awfully scared and thought I'd never get
17 home. As soon as the police column had passed through Gramacelj, many
18 villagers fled their homes to seek refuge with relatives in neighbouring
20 Do you see that passage?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Now, is that passage, if you know, is that passage a passage that
23 comes from information that was obtained from the individual we were
24 talking about before, person A, involving e21glodj.doc, which is a report
25 of the 30th of March, 1998?
1 A. It would appear so. If it is under those initials, it would
2 appear so.
3 Q. If you can turn your attention to the second page, please. And I
4 believe the language that's contained in the report that I just read, that
5 "Spotlight" report number 26, which is language which is the part of the
6 second full paragraph on the second page of the report, starting with
7 "There are about 300 kids in the school."
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. It goes on, and the report also indicates -- and I'm now referring
10 to the very last paragraph. It says: "Three days before the attack on
11 Glodjane, three Nivas, one black and two white, came to our village.
12 There were five policemen in each of the white cars and they held their
13 automatic rifles sticking out of the windows. In the black Niva there
14 were five men wearing masks, black wool stockings, and they had automatic
15 rifles. They stopped at the school. Only the masked men got out of their
16 car. They wore black uniforms with white eagles on the sleeves."
17 Do you see that information? It goes on.
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Did you ever get any further information about masked men with
20 white eagles on their sleeves?
21 A. No, sir, I didn't.
22 Q. Referring your attention for the moment to the other report
23 compiled by your colleague, which I believe is E5, it seems that the same
24 language is there too, or the same concern. In this one, it goes a bit
25 further, because it says: "In the black jeep there were five masked men
1 in black uniforms with white eagles on one sleeve. One had a camera and
2 took pictures of the village. I saw it with my own eyes."
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you ever, in the terms of the work that you were doing, did
5 you ever get any further information about these masked men?
6 A. No, sir.
7 Q. And I take if the reason for that would be because you were -- you
8 were dealing with, as you told Mr. Emmerson, you were dealing with the
9 Serb -- with the Serbian aspect of the interview process.
10 A. At that time.
11 Q. Right.
12 A. Yes. At that time, mainly.
13 Q. Okay, thank you.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Both of the documents that I have referred to Your
15 Honours, I believe, are contained in what has been presently marked as
17 Q. I'm going to turn away from that and ask you questions in another
18 area. Do you recall yesterday that Mr. Re asked you about the killing of
19 a gentleman, I believe his name was Prascevic --
20 A. Prascevic.
21 Q. Prascevic, thank you.
22 A. Prascevic.
23 Q. Prascevic, thank you very much. And during the time that you were
24 involved in that particular interview, you had a couple of interviews
25 concerning the death of that gentleman; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What date was that?
3 A. That was -- I think that was the beginning of March.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. I think.
6 Q. What you learned - and this is information that you learned
7 personally; this wasn't something that you heard through rumour or gossip
8 or many people said, but personally, not somebody telling you - you
9 learned that Mr. Prascevic had a relationship with an Albanian woman who
10 had betrayed him in order to save his own neck; right?
11 A. That seems to be the case, but it was a very -- I was never quite
12 clear about this story.
13 Q. Okay. Well, let me ask you this: I'm referring now to the
14 translation of your notes. It would be -- I believe now it's been marked
15 as Prosecution 3, 19 of the translation. That's in the binder again, very
16 beginning. That would be blue notebook, volume 1. And it's going to be
17 the -- and I'm taking my cue from Judge Hoepfel. It's one, two, three
18 lines down.
19 That was the information that you learned, I believe, from
20 Mr. Prascevic's wife. Page 19, going down one, two, three lines. Do you
21 see it there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Okay. Now, you also learned that Mr. Prascevic had been
24 suspended. He was a police officer and he had been suspended from his
25 job; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And as a matter of fact, "he," that is Mr. Prascevic, "had
3 apparently threatened to kill the chief," and I take it by that you mean
4 chief of -- his chief, the chief of police. I'm referring now to page 20,
5 the next page over, and that would be the top of the page and that would
6 be the first and second page of the top of the page in terms of the --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Right? Okay. Now, before you went on this mission, did you have
9 any information concerning the fact that, as a general rule, the Serbian
10 police, the MUP, as you've called them, were in the process of taking
11 weapons away from Albanians, plain old Albanians living on their land?
12 A. I remember that I'd heard something reported by one of my
13 colleagues. There was -- I don't remember the names of villages, but
14 there were families whose houses were searched for weapons.
15 Q. And that was back --
16 A. But I can't remember. It was in the Dukagjin area. I can't -- I
17 really don't know. Those were not my interviews. So I know it was right
18 about that time, but I can't remember the names of villages.
19 Q. Okay. And I think -- I think I'm going to be able to do it even a
20 bit quicker than I thought. I have only one last question for you, and
21 that's if you could be with me on this: You learned that that woman, the
22 Albanian woman, "was betraying Albanians, she was betraying her own
23 family, and that he," and I take it by that you mean Mr. Prascevic, "took
24 many weapons from them," that would be her own family, I guess, and
25 others, "and he received information from her. However, her husband died
1 last summer. He was murdered."
2 That's what you were told; right?
3 A. Yes. Now, I can't -- are we --
4 Q. That would be page 29. We're still in the same blue notebook,
5 volume 1. I do apologise for the cumbersome way I'm doing this, but we're
6 in paper. And that would be the one, two -- that would be the third full
7 paragraph where it says: "Wife ..."
8 A. Yes, his wife.
9 Q. Now, you never received any information as to whether or not,
10 whether -- put it another way, as to who killed Mr. Prascevic, did you?
11 A. No, sir, again, I was a police detective -- I wasn't a police
12 detective to learn that and to investigate.
13 Q. I understand. And during that period of time, if I'm not
14 mistaken, the Albanian woman, she was shot, too; correct?
15 A. She claimed that she was shot and indeed I did talk to her at the
17 Q. Were you able to verify or substantiate that claim?
18 A. I cannot really, because I went to the hospital and I talked to
19 her. There was somebody translating for me, but I can't -- I can't really
20 recall who. But I seem to -- I seem to remember that there was somebody
21 sitting next to me - I really can't recall who that was -- because the
22 woman did not speak Serbian very well, and at that time I still -- I still
23 can't speak Albanian, but at least I can understand and, you know, read
24 the newspaper and understand what people are saying. At that time I
25 couldn't; this was early March.
1 Q. Understood.
2 A. So I talked through somebody who was interpreting for me, but I
3 can't remember who, I'm sorry.
4 Q. You did the best you -- you did the best you could with what you
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you very much for your time and your patience.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 Mr. Harvey, have you changed your mind?
10 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, no surprises.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No surprises.
12 MR. HARVEY: I have no questions for this witness.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then before ...
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Before I give an opportunity to Mr. Re to ask his
16 clarifying question in re-examination, Judge Hoepfel would like to put a
17 question to you.
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
19 Questioned by the Court:
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Just to give us a complete picture of your diaries
21 or notepads, it was asked if all notepads are at the court, in the
22 possession of the court, and maybe I can ask you: There were four
23 notepads put to the Court. Is that the number of notepads you remember?
24 A. Right. That is the number I remember. There may have been
25 interviews that were recorded elsewhere, on a piece of paper, that went
1 into the HLC files; but these were all the notebooks that I had and that
2 is what I gave -- again, I don't remember quite when, but I gave to an
3 OSCE colleague, who was actually my immediate supervisor when I was with
4 the Kosovo Verification Mission, and she had them in her came and gave
5 them to the Tribunal.
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. So you cannot give us an idea when,
7 about, it was first undertook to translate portions of these diaries?
8 A. I really don't know. I have no idea. I only know that I was
9 contacted by the Tribunal in, I think, the year 2002. So I don't know
10 what was happening with them in the meantime.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
12 To have an idea of the process, then, it appears that there are
13 some markings or some notes every now and then. For example, let us see
14 the original, which is ERN number U0030320. But it appears all over these
15 texts, and they seem not to have been included in the translation so I
16 suppose they were added later and maybe by a different person or by
17 several persons. Can you give us some idea about that? Do we have it
19 A. Am I supposed to look at the screen?
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Will the screen show this page? Yes. Do you have
21 it on the screen, your handwriting, this page?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And after some lines, it comes "Otoc," and then
24 you see above this line this "NNLOKAN2.doc" and then there's a double U, a
25 sign, two ticks. Do you remember what that was? Normally it was framed,
1 like in a box.
2 A. Yes.
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can you explain that to us, because --?
4 A. I don't quite remember when, but sometime probably in the autumn
5 of 1998, at the HLC, we were told how to file the document so that it
6 would -- they would be correctly filed and always have the same -- follow
7 the same pattern. And the "NN" -- I think that the "NN" here means that
8 the person did not want to be named. And then the second thing, that was
9 the name of the village. And then number 2 after this "LOCAN" would be
10 the number of the interview taken. And that would follow -- that pattern
11 was followed through. So it didn't matter who took the interview. It
12 would just always be where it was from.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So it would then be part of a computer document.
14 A. Yes.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. Sometimes there is added, or often, "MA";
16 this would be your initials, I suppose?
17 A. Yes, they would.
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay. So we now understand a little more of the
19 methodology and how this came about. Thank you.
20 This was my only question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, you said you needed to put one clarifying
22 question, at least that was the situation a quarter of an hour ago.
23 MR. RE: It was a clarifying --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please put the question, because we're running
25 out of time.
1 MR. RE: Of course.
2 Re-examination by Mr. Re:
3 Q. Earlier, Mr. Emmerson asked you about displacements in the -- he
4 asked you about the police attack on the village of Glodjane, and at page
5 85 you said:
6 "There were times when people would be displaced because there was
7 shooting and there was an incident, and then when things calmed down, they
8 would come back. That was the pattern for quite a few months in Kosovo
10 That was the answer you gave. When you gave that answer, were you
11 referring to people of the Serbian ethnicity or another ethnicity?
12 A. What I recall was that was -- that was the case with both
13 communities in some cases. And the first thing off the top of my head is,
14 for example, Orahovac, which happened a bit later, and it's a bit more --
15 a bit central Kosovo.
16 Q. I just want to try to focus this. When you were talking about
17 that, were you talking generally or were you talking about the Serbian or
18 the Albanian? If you could answer that in a word or two, it would
20 A. I would say I was talking -- I was referring to civilian
21 population, not particularly to ethnicities.
22 Q. The second part of my clarification is: When you said that was
23 the pattern -- sorry, you said: "When things calmed down, they would come
24 back. That was the pattern for quite a few months in Kosovo overall." My
25 next clarifying question is: Did that change and -- did the pattern
1 change to permanent displacements?
2 A. Yes, it did, in those places where villages were burned or houses
3 were burned.
4 Q. And what areas were those?
5 A. You would have to be really specific, at what time, because the
6 conflict spread.
7 Q. Just to make it relevant to this indictment, does that refer to
8 any of the incidents or the places you referred to in your notebook or the
9 report, that is, permanent displacements?
10 A. You mean in the time period that --
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. -- that you are interested in?
13 Q. That's right, yes.
14 A. I don't think that I have any reference that it was permanent in
15 my notes.
16 Q. What about your knowledge? You referred to a situation where --
17 when things would calm down and people would come back, and your
18 knowledge, based upon your going to those villages and those areas, did
19 there come a time when there were permanent displacements?
20 A. I do not recall that people I spoke with in Decan in April, I
21 cannot recall that they went back to their villages. But, again, at that
22 time we couldn't, obviously, say whether that was permanent or not.
23 Q. You're saying at that point it wasn't permanent --
24 A. In April, in April of 1998.
25 Q. Okay. Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any need for further questions by the
2 Defence? I see three times nodding no.
3 Since the Bench has no further questions for you, Ms. Andjelkovic,
4 this concludes your testimony. I'd like to thank you very much for coming
5 to The Hague to testify before this Court and for answering questions of
6 both parties and the Bench, and also for having to undergo all logistical
7 problems we faced these days. Thank you very much. Madam Usher will
8 escort you out.
9 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours, for being patient.
10 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment there's no further time for procedural
11 issues. We're running out of tape. The only thing I'd like to say is
12 that the Chamber has considered the request for protective measures and
13 the request is granted, reasons to be given when we are not running out of
16 MR. RE: There was the issue of the timing you asked me about
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. RE: I can give you the answer in seconds.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. RE: CLSS has a turnaround of two hours for issuing -- for
22 translating documents issued by the Chambers. And there are no travel
23 documents. The situation of 24 hours still goes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would there be any problem, as far as the
25 Defence is concerned, that Chamber staff and Prosecution would communicate
1 as to any practical problems in this respect?
2 Then, Mr. Re, that will take place and we'll not cause any further
3 delay in a decision on the matter.
4 We stand adjourned until tomorrow, Courtroom II, quarter past
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 8th day of
8 February, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.