1 Thursday, 8 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
7 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 Mr. Haradinaj, Mr. Balaj, Mr. Brahimaj, whenever you are in a
10 position that you can't hear me in a language you understand, I expect you
11 to immediately address me or ask counsel to address me, because it's
12 important that you can follow every single word of the proceedings.
13 Before I'll invite the Prosecution to call its next witness, there
14 are a few procedural matters I'd like to deal with as quickly as possible.
15 First --
16 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. HARVEY: I do beg your pardon. Are we meant to be in closed
19 session? Because I noticed that the blind is down.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. I hadn't noticed that. We are not in
21 closed session at this moment. There is, however, a later stage when we
22 are -- we'll come to that in a minute. I see that in a high-tech
23 courtroom, getting the curtains up -- Madam Usher, perhaps you could look
24 at whether there's anyone behind it at this moment and take your time to
25 see whether there's any effect. If not, then take all your time.
1 First, admission of exhibits of Witness Andjelkovic. I'd like to
2 delay any decisions until every single piece have been verified and, as I
3 announced yesterday, the Prosecution still has an opportunity to, after
4 verification, to see whether the material is now in the right
5 chronological order, or the translation. I suggest that we wait to give
6 any decision on the matter until this has been verified.
7 Second, I just signed subpoenas for two witnesses with an
8 appearance date of the 21st of March.
9 Three, and I'd like to put a question to you, Mr. Re.
10 What do you think the time that was granted to you to present the
11 OTP case?
12 MR. RE: I'm sorry, the question is what do I think of it?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. What is your -- how many hours do you think you
15 MR. RE: If I subtract the number I've already used from the
16 total --
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, but what we -- we gave a decision on that.
18 How did you understand the decision to be?
19 MR. RE: 125 hours for the Prosecution case.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. This is a bit of a mystery. You'll find
21 in the transcript 175 hours. When we noticed that, we thought that we
22 have to check on whether I misspoke. I received the report that it has
23 been checked twice, that I'm supposed to have said 175 hours, which
24 surprised me because my fellow Judges would certainly have responded.
25 Mr. Re, I would at least have seen a big smile on your face, getting 50
1 hours in addition.
2 Also, the Registrar, in her report, writes 125. So, therefore,
3 it's still a mystery, and I take it that everyone understands the decision
4 of the Trial Chamber to be that the Prosecution was granted 125 hours for
5 the presentation of its case.
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I might add that it was, indeed, not really
7 understandable, the first time you said it, according to my memory, and
8 this is also what the notes of the Registry reflect.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If my pronunciation was insufficient, I
10 apologise for that, but luckily no one, from what I understand, gained a
11 wrong impression of what the Chamber meant to grant to the OTP.
12 Next question, Mr. Re: Witnesses for next week, you are aware
13 that the subpoenas are for the 25th of March. Could you give us any
14 further information on what you intend to do next week?
15 MR. RE: Yes. Your Honour said the 25th. My understanding, it
16 was going to be the 21st --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, 21st. Yes, yes, I'm misspeaking now, it seems to
18 me. Yes, 21st.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You never know whether this changes, the reference.
23 I mean, I don't know, but perhaps you know better. I would have referred
24 to the next witness on the list.
25 MR. RE: In that particular case, my information is very, very
1 recent, like 20 minutes ago.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. RE: Okay. The next one would be number 8 on the list,
4 because of the difficulties with 6 and 7.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. RE: Following that, our plan was to call --
7 JUDGE ORIE: 8 on the list. Again, you're working, I take it,
8 from the old list because I would have expected problems with 7 and 8 on
9 my last list, but --
10 MR. RE: I'm working from the filed list, the list we filed --
11 JUDGE ORIE: The list you filed, yes. Okay.
12 MR. RE: -- the 2nd of March. That's the list -- it's sorted in
13 two orders. When I'm talking, I'm talking about the tentative order of
14 witnesses, or the proposed or tentative order of testimony as opposed to
15 the alphabetical list.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. RE: The next one after that would be 8. Then number 5
18 following that. However, an issue has arisen with number 5 as recently as
19 today in terms of securing the presence of number 5 here, which we will
20 have to deal with expeditiously.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. RE: So I don't think number 5, who was scheduled to arrive on
23 Sunday, will actually be arriving on Sunday.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So that's -- until now, then, we've got two witnesses
25 for next week?
1 MR. RE: No, we have another one after that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. RE: Which is number -- number 9. A problem has arisen with
4 number 10 this morning, again, a different -- a different witness; same
5 problem, same issue is going to arise with that one.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, I'm not aware of the kind of problems
7 and to what extent this will be an obstacle to call them or not.
8 MR. RE: Yes. The proposed witness we wanted to call on Friday,
9 and Your Honours were against me on that, was number 48 -- sorry, not 48.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Friday, the 16th?
11 MR. RE: No, this Friday, that witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: This Friday, yes, yes. That's the unprotected, next
13 on the list, yes.
14 MR. RE: It's number 29, wasn't it? Yes, it was number 29. If we
15 could, we'd -- we're in a position to call that person next week, one,
16 two, three, maybe third or fourth next week. We're in a position to do
18 JUDGE ORIE: So I've now 8, 5, 9, 10, and 29 as the following
19 witnesses to be called.
20 MR. RE: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Are you also able to -- yes, of course, I'm talking
22 about next week, because for this week, of course, we had already
23 Witness 38 and the next one on the list you just mentioned. So these are
24 the witnesses scheduled for next week.
25 How much time in chief are they assessed for?
1 MR. RE: Your Honour just mentioned Witness 38. There is a
2 difficulty with Witness 38 continuing this week. Witness 38 has work
3 commitments and we wouldn't have got to her until Friday, and I'm just not
4 in a position to bring her to court this week. I'll have to call her at
5 some later point. She arrived on Sunday and has had to return.
6 JUDGE ORIE: But I thought that would be today.
7 MR. RE: No, no, no. Have I got the wrong one? I'm sorry, I was
8 thinking about 28. I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. Okay, that's fine.
10 MR. RE: Thirty-eight is sitting outside. I apologise.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. But we have 8, 5, 9, 10, and 29, then, on
12 our list to be examined after the two witnesses remaining for this week.
13 Of course, we'd like to receive as early as possible, and certainly not
14 more -- not less than 24 hours in advance of hearing a witness, the
15 statement or the statements, any proofing notes, and the exhibits you
16 intend to use with the witness. And you also know that the Defence asked
17 to have the possibility to screen that material before it's given to the
19 MR. RE: Can I just -- last week, I know the Chamber asked us to
20 come back with a counter-proposal. At the time, I said I'm entirely in
21 the Trial Chamber's hands as to the manner of proceeding here.
22 Twenty-four hours is, of course, easy and not a problem for us. Proofing
23 notes, sometimes there's a difficulty, as Your Honours appreciate, with
24 people arriving late. The Defence asked for a much longer period. If the
25 Defence could perhaps indicate to us in advance which witness statements
1 they don't -- they wouldn't allow us to give to the Trial Chamber 24 hours
2 in advance, we might be able to speed up the process.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I can imagine that the witness statements are
4 available well in advance of the witness to appear in this courtroom, so
5 therefore I do not know whether -- but I take it that - that's how I, at
6 least, understood the Defence position - that they'd like to consider
7 whether the statement, together with the proofing notes, would create any
8 problems. So, therefore, I do understand that it's your position that it
9 doesn't make any sense to give three days in advance any comments on the
10 statements; you could give it already now. But your problem is that if
11 the proofing notes, well, bring a change, or perhaps even a dramatic
12 change, that you'd like to be aware of that and perhaps to oppose against
13 either statement or proofing notes to be given to the Chamber. Is that
14 well understood, Mr. Emmerson?
15 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I think Your Honour properly summarises the
16 position as we put it in our letter of the 5th of February. Obviously, we
17 inserted suggested time frames for both, but the essential proposal is
18 that we should have the proofing notes in sufficient time to be able to
19 compare the proofing notes with the statement and formulate a position as
20 to whether the Trial Chamber should have the proofing notes -- should have
21 the statements.
22 Now, obviously, the general position will be that the Trial
23 Chamber will do so. It will be in cases where there are exceptional
24 reasons for believing, arising out of the proofing notes or other matters,
25 that the statements shouldn't come forward in that way.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. EMMERSON: We also, I think, indicated in that letter that the
3 list of witnesses for whom we would seek the earliest possible disclosure
4 of proofing notes as an annex to the letter.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Re, you say 24 hours is not a problem, but
6 proofing notes are a problem, of course, time in relation with the
7 material. Would you please take care that -- well, let's say, 27 hours
8 prior to the witness to appear, that you provide statements and whatever
9 you have as proofing notes, and preferably complete, to the Defence in
10 order to give them an opportunity to have at least a couple of hours to
11 look at it and to see whether there are such kind of changes that they
12 would have to oppose against disclosing this material to the Chamber.
13 MR. RE: Of course.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, I just rise to seek two points of
16 First of all, I wouldn't take that -- Your Honour's indication to,
17 in any way, mitigate the Prosecution's undertaking that proofing notes
18 should in any event be disclosed as soon as they are available.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Of course. I mean, the 27 hours is the bare minimum.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. And Your Honour meant 27, as in three hours
21 before they come to the Trial Chamber.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm aware that that's rather tight, but of
23 course the OTP is at the same time encouraged to make that 48, 36 hours in
24 the near future, rather than 27, 24.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, it's an interim --
1 JUDGE ORIE: I must be careful with numbers, Mr. Emmerson.
2 MR. EMMERSON: When there's an appropriate moment, may I say a
3 word to you about the witness order for next week, but at the convenient
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Unless it's urgent, I suggest that we first
6 proceed -- unless you say it's half a minute or a minute, then please
8 MR. EMMERSON: All I can say -- all I need say at this stage is
9 there may be issues which I've notified to Mr. Re in outline in respect of
10 Witness 8, and that is to say that there may be issues of disclosure and
11 issues of admissibility concerning material which that witness refers to
12 in his statement.
13 Now yesterday we were given to understand that the Prosecution
14 would be making a decision as to exactly what it was from that witness
15 they were seeking to elicit. It's one of those witnesses who gives really
16 a vast amount of material, the relevance and admissibility of which may be
17 open to question.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll see whether these problems will be
19 resolved between the parties; if not, then of course the Chamber will have
20 to deal with them.
21 That's about witnesses for -- yes, Mr. Harvey.
22 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, if I could just ask this, if I may,
23 through the Court to Mr. Re. He did indicate that there are problems with
24 Witnesses 5 and 8. My concern is just to know whether if it's possible to
25 tell at this stage whether those are the type of problems that may make it
1 impossible for -- to procure those witnesses to attend at all next week,
2 or whether it's simply a question of what order they will be in but they
3 will definitely be here next week. And it might help us all to have an
4 understanding of that.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think I earlier said not knowing the
6 problems, not knowing whether the problems would be an obstacle to calling
7 these witnesses.
8 MR. RE: I didn't say there were problems with 8. I said 5,
9 not 8.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But whatever witness it is with problems, would
11 it be an obstacle with having the witness in court, potentially.
12 MR. RE: It would, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
14 MR. RE: Yes. That's why I'm notifying everyone now, that
15 problems have arisen today, and we'll be taking -- making appropriate
17 JUDGE ORIE: I take it you'll keep us updated as good as you can.
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And didn't you mention also witness number 10,
19 not 8 but 10?
20 MR. HARVEY: Yes, I'm sorry, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then I'd like to move on to the next small item.
23 Mr. Re, I think an update is due on UNMIK's progress with
24 reassessment of files. Could you update us and could you do so in open
25 session, or do you want to go into private session?
1 MR. RE: I can't update you on the spot, I'm sorry. I can update
2 you later in the afternoon. I'll have to make some further inquiries.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll hear you later, preferably today;
4 if not today, at least then as soon as possible, not later than tomorrow.
5 Yes. Next issue, the Chamber received yesterday motions for
6 protective measures in relation to Witnesses 4 and 19.
7 Could the Defence tell the Chamber how they want to proceed with
8 these motions? Do we get a short answer in open session? Do we get a
9 longer answer in closed session? Do you want -- how do you suggest we
10 proceed with these two motions?
11 MR. EMMERSON: I apologise for what may seem some confusion. I
12 haven't seen the motions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then would you please have a look at it --
14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, of course, during the course of the afternoon.
15 JUDGE ORIE: If all counsel read them and then tell the Chamber,
16 how -- not yet perhaps. Of course, if you'd say no objections, then of
17 course it could be done easily, but how to proceed.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour did say 4 and 19?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To be quite honest, I have not read them yet,
20 but I --
21 Mr. Re, my information is right, it's 4 and 19?
22 MR. RE: They were both witnesses who have existing protective
23 measures, if I understand.
24 JUDGE ORIE: If everyone reads all the motions filed yesterday on
25 protective measures for witnesses, then we'll hear later how we will
2 MR. EMMERSON: Witness 4, I think, is the witness Mr. Re indicated
3 just a moment ago, when mentioning her name, is not a protected
4 witness --
5 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think that's on the list. I think when we're
6 referring to witnesses, we're usually referring to --
7 MR. EMMERSON: W4, I'm so sorry.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Earlier I said we would call them witness and
9 then a number and that would ...
10 Okay. Then we'll hear from you as soon as possible on that.
11 Then finally I have to give you the full decision on protective
12 measures for Witness 38.
13 On the 6th of March -- on the 6th of March, 2007, the Prosecution
14 applied for the protective measures pseudonym and face and voice
15 distortion for Witness 38. According to the Prosecution, the witness has
16 been receiving death threats, directed both against the witness and the
17 witness's family. The threats came mainly through telephone calls, and
18 the threats are ongoing. The witness has, in particular, expressed
19 serious concern for the safety of family members.
20 On the 7th of March, yesterday, the Defence has informed the Trial
21 Chamber that it does not oppose the application.
22 The party seeking protective measures for a witness, which in this
23 case is the Prosecution, must demonstrate an objectively grounded risk to
24 the security or welfare of the witness or the witness's family, should it
25 become known that the witness has given evidence before the Tribunal.
1 This standard can be satisfied by showing that a threat was made against
2 the witness or the witness's family, or by demonstrating a combination of
3 the following three factors: One, the witness's testimony may antagonise
4 persons who reside in a specific territory; two, the witness or his or her
5 family live or work in that territory, have property in that territory, or
6 have concrete plans to return to live in the territory; and three, there
7 exists an unstable security situation in that territory which is
8 particularly unfavourable to witnesses who appear before the Tribunal.
9 In the present case, clear and direct threats have been directed
10 against Witness 38. The Trial Chamber accepts that the witness's fear is
11 genuine and objectively based, and that there is a risk that if the
12 testimony of the witness were to be made public, physical harm might
13 result to the witness or the witness's family.
14 The Trial Chamber therefore grants the Prosecution's request for
15 pseudonym and face and voice distortion.
16 This concludes the Trial Chamber's decision on protective measures
17 for Witness 38.
18 I have no further procedural matters. If none of the parties want
19 to raise one, we'll ask the usher to -- first of all, to see whether all
20 the technical measures for protective measures are in place, and then
21 invite the usher to call the witness. But I see that -- yes.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Just one matter, if Your Honours please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Before the witness is brought in. I invite the
25 Trial Chamber to explain the effect of the measures resulting from your
1 order just made to the witness. I think that will go some way to
2 reassuring her and ensure a smoother flow of evidence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
4 The parties are reminded that since the witness --
5 [French spoken on English channel] I received French translation
6 on my English channel 4.
7 If any of the parties would like to put a question to the witness
8 of a kind which, in the answer, might reveal the identity of the witness,
9 then of course they should ask before to go into private session, which
10 then will be the same as closed session, as a matter of fact.
11 The parties are also invited to release into the e-court system
12 any pseudonym sheets they want to use. I do understand that it has not
13 happened, but pseudonym sheets are exhibits and should be uploaded.
14 Mr. Di Fazio, I leave it to you to instruct the witness clearly on
15 how to use the pseudonym sheet so she doesn't start reading aloud what's
16 on it. Yes.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness 38. First of all, can you
19 hear me in a language you understand?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I called you Witness --
22 THE INTERPRETER: I cannot hear the witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you could take care that the -- that she's
24 close enough -- if you sit down for a second, then you're closer to the
25 microphone, and could you please switch your microphone off.
1 Witness 38, please sit down for a second. Yes.
2 I called you Witness 38. I did so because I'm not using your own
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Everyone in this courtroom will call you Witness 38.
6 That is because you are testifying under a pseudonym, not under your own
8 Apart from that protective measure, we also have put in place face
9 distortion and voice distortion. That means anyone outside this
10 courtroom, on the screens, on television, could not see your own face,
11 cannot hear your own voice. It's all distorted. If you --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If, while answering a question, if you would be
14 hesitant because you would fear that by answering the question you would
15 reveal your own identity, you always can ask me, then, to go into closed
16 session for a moment so that the information you give would, under those
17 circumstances, also be protected.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: These are the protective measures in place. You
20 asked for them; they have been granted by the Chamber. And everyone will
21 do its utmost best to make them effective.
22 Before you give evidence in this Court, the Rules of Procedure and
23 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the
24 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The text will now be
25 handed out to you by Madam Usher, and I'd like to invite you to stand and
1 to make that solemn declaration. And could you please speak loud.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/38
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated. You will first be examined by
7 Mr. Di Fazio, who is counsel for the Prosecution.
8 Mr. Di Fazio, you may proceed.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
10 Can the witness be shown 65 ter 1171, please, and I take it that's
11 not to be publicly shown on the screens.
12 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
13 Q. Can you see that document in front of you? Just answer me yes or
14 no. Can you see it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. There's a name in print, a surname in print, that you can
17 see it in large letters. Is that your surname, both in Albania and in
19 A. It is.
20 Q. All right. Underneath that is a second name. Is that your
21 Christian name or first name?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Under that is another name. Is that the name of your father?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. All right. Underneath that is a date of birth but it's in
1 English, and I'll tell you what it says in a way that doesn't reveal it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Redaction, please.
4 Mr. Di Fazio, we are not in private session.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: No, okay. I'll approach it differently.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. DI FAZIO:
8 Q. Does that show the year of your birth?
9 A. Yes, it does.
10 Q. All right. And does it show the place of your birth?
11 A. Yes, it does.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I tender the document.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be number -- Exhibit
16 number 7.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: We'll need to redact that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The parties are instructed to provide pseudonym
23 sheets with anything other than data and text only in a language we could
24 expect the witness to be able to read, or without, and then say first
25 line, second line, third line. That would do.
1 You may proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: In actual --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: -- fact, Your Honour, I had prepared my own
5 pseudonym sheet which I now intend to show to the witness for other
6 reasons. And I understand what Your Honour says concerning that, I'll
7 make sure that that happens in the future. I thought that the one I had
8 prepared would probably meet the needs of the situation, but I understood
9 that Your Honours wanted a pseudonym sheet in this form and that,
10 unfortunately, was only therefore just prepared before Your Honours came
11 in and that led to that. So I'm sure that in the future, it won't be a
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
15 Q. I'd now like to show you another sheet, another document - and
16 again this is not for public viewing - and it's document 65 ter 1170.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before it will be shown to the witness, P7,
18 unless we find other surprises, but will be admitted under seal --
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- is admitted under seal.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. And I'll be asking for
22 this document also to be admitted under seal in due course.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm waiting for it to come up. Thank you.
25 Q. All right. Now, again, I don't want you to mention any names.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That, Madam Registrar, would be ...?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be Exhibit number P8,
3 under seal.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, marked for identification for the time being.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
7 Q. Just very briefly, again don't mention names, you see, I think
8 it's now agreed, that your name appears at the top? Do you agree? I have
9 to hear you say yes.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. All right. Thank you. Underneath that, is that your father's
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And underneath that is your sister's name?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Followed by your sister-in-law's name?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And underneath that, the first two names of her children?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And then the name of your -- the first name of your step-mother?
21 A. Yes. I see the name. Yes.
22 Q. All right. And then the name of your uncle, and then followed
23 finally by the name of your aunt?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I tender that document.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. DI FAZIO:
4 Q. You --
5 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, we now need to go into
6 private session very briefly while I deal some career aspects of this
7 woman that might tend to identify her.
8 [Private session]
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, your face and voice is still hidden, but the
20 content of your testimony is now public again.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
22 MR. DI FAZIO:
23 Q. I want to know about the population, the people who were living in
24 Junik. Can you tell us if there were any families living in Junik of Roma
25 or Egyptian ethnicity, who referred to themselves as Roma or Egyptian?
1 A. Of Roma ethnicity.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, would you please switch off your
3 microphone if the witness answers the questions, because your microphone
4 does not give any distortion.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might at this time, Your Honour, since
6 there's a break. I'm concerned that we may be seeing a number of leading
7 questions. Thus far I don't think there's really any objection because
8 we've been dealing with matters that need to be gotten through kind of
9 rapidly. But when we reach some sensitive areas, I trust that we will not
10 see that. And I don't know how you wish for us to deal with it in terms
11 of the flow of examination? Because I don't want to be standing up all
12 the time if such questions are occurring.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It very much depends on the topic and therefore
14 you're invited to -- to identify the moments where leading the witness
15 would really be of potential influence to -- and, of course, you could say
16 every leading question, but it's just a matter of asking yourself to what
17 extent there's a need to object, and then, of course, we'll decide on any
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well. Thank you for that.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: If I may help my learned colleague, I think I might
21 have an idea of what might be the controversial topics in this testimony.
22 Q. In your house that you lived in, in Junik, did you have a view of
23 the main street?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I want you to turn your attention to the first few months of 1998,
1 and I want to ask you if you ever saw vehicles driving up and down the
2 main street in the first few months of 1998.
3 A. I did.
4 Q. Did you ever see vehicles driving up and down the main street at
5 night-time in the first few months of 1998?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. In May of 1998, early May of 1998, were you still living in your
8 house in Junik with a view of that main street?
9 A. I was.
10 Q. Did you ever, in early May of 1998, see a collection of cars in
11 that street?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Can you remember about when that was in May of 1998?
14 A. I don't know the exact date.
15 Q. Okay. Don't answer this if you can't. Can you give us an
16 approximate date in May? Was it in the middle, perhaps the beginning or
17 perhaps at the end of May, or you don't know?
18 A. It was sometime around mid-May, the 6th or the 7th of May.
19 Q. And on this occasion that you --
20 A. Early May.
21 Q. All right, thank you. And on this occasion that you saw these
22 cars, can you tell us how many cars you saw, this collection of cars?
23 A. There were about four cars and two vans.
24 Q. And about what time of day was it that you saw these -- this
25 collection of cars and vans?
1 A. At night.
2 Q. Were there men in the cars or in the vehicles?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you know or recognise any of the men in the vehicles?
5 A. Except one.
6 Q. I understand that you are saying you understood one; is that -- my
7 understanding correct? You knew one, one of them; is that right?
8 A. No, I apologise. Actually, two.
9 Q. Okay. They're not related to you, are they?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you understand them to be inhabitants of Junik?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What were their names?
14 A. Shkelzen Pepshi and Aslan Luluni.
15 Q. And what ethnicity were they?
16 A. Albanians.
17 Q. What did you see -- what happened when the cars arrived and you
18 saw them?
19 A. There was another group waiting there.
20 Q. A group of men?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And where were you looking from?
23 A. I was looking out the window, from the direction of the window, on
24 the main road.
25 Q. What did the men in the cars do?
1 A. They got out of the vehicles and started distributing weapons.
2 Q. To whom?
3 A. To that other group that was -- that had been waiting for them to
5 Q. And about how many people were in that group that had been waiting
6 for them to come, as you say?
7 A. I cannot recall the number, but there were quite a few.
8 Q. Did you see the actual weapons themselves? Did you actually lay
9 eyes on weapons?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. You may or may not be able to answer this; do not if you're not
12 sure. Can you tell us what sort of weaponry it was that was being
14 A. I don't know much about that, but I shall try. There were
15 semi-automatic rifles; automatic rifles; there were pistols; there were
16 other kinds of weapons, quite a lot of them, in those cars.
17 Q. I take it the distribution process finished at some point. What
18 happened after that?
19 A. Then they went in the direction of Pesh, which is a settlement
20 near Junik.
21 Q. Who went in that direction?
22 A. Would you please repeat that question. I did not quite understand
24 Q. Okay. You've told us that there were some vehicles that arrived,
25 a collection of cars and some vans, and there were men in that set of
1 vehicles. You've also told us that there was a group of men to whom
2 weapons were distributed from those vehicles, or from that group of men
3 who arrived in the vehicles.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. After the distribution of weapons had been completed, what did the
6 men in the cars do?
7 A. They went out of the cars. They started shooting. They started
9 Q. Did you actually see that with your own eyes?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. From your window in your house?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. And what about the group of men who had been there when the
14 cars -- who met the cars? What did they do?
15 A. They got weapons and they set off in the direction of Pesh, which
16 is a small settlement in Junik.
17 Q. Okay. And did the cars eventually depart and go away?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you see any of the men again that night, either the men who
20 had arrived in the cars or the group that met them?
21 A. No, not that night. I went to bed. But that night they threw
22 stones at my window and broke the windows -- the window.
23 Q. Who threw the stones, do you know?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you take any action in respect of that? Did you do anything
1 about that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What did you do about the stones being thrown at your windows?
4 A. I went to see the president of the democratic party in Junik.
5 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Qemajl Shalja?
6 A. I do.
7 Q. Was he a resident of Junik?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Think back to this night when the cars arrived and you saw another
10 group of men waiting, and you've told us about how the weapons were --
11 were handed out.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Is that -- is that the night that the stone or stones were thrown
14 at your windows? Did it happen on that occasion?
15 A. Yes, it did.
16 Q. Did you ever see Qemajl, the man you know as Qemajl Shalja,
17 talking or giving a speech in the village of Junik?
18 A. Yes, on the following day.
19 Q. Do you know who he was with when he gave the speech, or spoke?
20 A. He was with the president of the democratic party and quite a few
21 other people around him.
22 Q. Were there other local inhabitants, local residents, from the
23 village gathered to hear what was being said?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you go and listen to what was being said?
1 A. Yes. I approached them but I wasn't that close to them.
2 Q. Could you hear what was being said?
3 A. I could.
4 Q. About how many people were gathered, listening to what was being
6 A. It was a large number of people. I cannot tell you exactly how
7 many, but there were many people.
8 Q. And can you tell us what Mr. Shalja said?
9 A. Mr. Shalja said that he had come from Glodjane, where he had had a
10 six-month training course, and he was responsible for gathering young men,
11 training them, and distributing weapons to them.
12 Q. Did he mention any entities, any organisations?
13 A. What do you mean? Which organisation?
14 Q. Did Mr. Shalja say who he had been training with in Glodjane?
15 A. He said the headquarters was in Glodjane and he had been trained
16 by other people who were superior to him. But he didn't name them; he
17 only used code-names.
18 Q. Did he give you any explanation of the headquarters? Did he ever
19 say it was the headquarters of any particular organisation? Did you --
20 headquarters of what?
21 A. He explained to them about the headquarters. I just overhead what
22 he said. And he said that it was training about warfare and that he was
23 supposed to train other young people who knew nothing about waging war
24 about using weapons.
25 Q. Did you see any weapons on this occasion? You've told us about
1 the night before --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- now you're telling us about the next day, okay, when Mr. Shalja
4 was there giving his talk to the villagers. Did you see weapons on this
5 occasion when he was talking to the villagers?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What sort of quantities of weapons did you see? Can you give us
8 an idea? One or two guns? Was it a lot? A few? How many?
9 A. I saw only his weapons. He had everything from a semi-automatic
10 rifle to the radio, but they didn't distribute weapons there that day.
11 They must have distributed weapons elsewhere. I just saw the gear that he
12 had, and he had all of it.
13 Q. How was he dressed? Think carefully about this. How was he
14 dressed? What was the colour of his clothing and what did he have on his
15 body and around him?
16 A. He was wearing multi-coloured clothes. On his right-hand side --
17 in fact, it was the greenish camouflage uniform similar to that of the
18 Army of Yugoslavia. On the right-hand side he had a UCK sign, that's the
19 KLA insignia.
20 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, have you ever heard of this UCK, or
21 KLA, insignia? Have you ever -- had you ever seen it or heard of it
23 A. I had seen it when the policemen had captured some of them. They
24 were taking away some people who were wearing that. And they had on the
25 wall a kind of chart showing those insignia.
1 Q. Now, which wall are you talking about? Was it a wall -- do I
2 understand that you're talking about some wall close to this man Shalja,
3 as he was talking, giving his speech?
4 (redacted) They had this
5 chart showing all sorts of emblems and insignia, so we knew what they
6 looked like.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment,
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I want to show the witness
11 a symbol, a piece of paper with a symbol on it. It's not in e-court and
12 hasn't been distributed to the Defence yet, but I don't think it's going
13 to be controversial, and I suspect not. Might I take this opportunity of
14 showing it to the Defence now so that they can --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you first show it to the Defence, then we'll
16 find out whether there's any objection to it.
17 Any objection? No, there's no -- I'm looking at all three
18 counsel. There's no objection to show this to the witness.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no, no.
20 Could a copy be shown to the witness, please.
21 Q. Have you seen that insignia or symbol or design before?
22 A. Yes, I saw it at the police station for the first time.
23 Q. And what about on Mr. Shalja? You talked about insignia that he
24 had. Is it similar to that? Don't just nod. You need to speak, give an
1 A. Yes, yes. Yes, that's the one.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I tender that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this would be Exhibit Number P9,
6 marked for identification.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: That's a full exhibit, isn't it, if Your Honours
9 please? If Your Honours please, that's a full exhibit now in the case, I
10 understand; correct?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is not yet admitted. This Chamber often
12 takes decisions on admission at the very end. Here it -- since there was
13 no objection, but the specific problem here was it wasn't disclosed to the
14 Defence in advance, so I only asked whether there was any objection of
15 showing it to the witness. Admission, we'll deal with that at the very
16 end. All these numbers are now marked for identification, an admission
17 decision will be taken. We usually do that not one by one but at the end.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly. I understand. Very well. Thank you,
19 Your Honours.
20 Q. When Mr. Shalja was giving his speech, were there any tractors or
21 vans nearby?
22 A. There were a little further away from him.
23 Q. Was there anything on or in those vans or tractors?
24 A. The tractor was covered with a tarpaulin and I couldn't look in
25 the van to see what was inside.
1 Q. All right. In the village of Junik, I think you said there were
2 Roma or Egyptian families living there; correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did -- and about how many would you say were resident in Junik
5 back in May of 1998?
6 A. Ten to 12 houses.
7 Q. And just for Their -- so Their Honours understand, that's 10 to 12
8 houses, but each house might have a number of Roma or Egyptian people
9 living in those houses, extended families; is that correct?
10 A. Yes. Right.
11 Q. Thank you. Following this episode where Mr. Shalja gave his
12 speech, did the Roma families do anything?
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm going to object to that as being vague.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio -- yes, of course, vague questions are
15 usually not leading; that's one of the advantages. But I do understand
16 that you ask Mr. Di Fazio to be a bit more specific.
17 Could you reformulate your question, Mr. Di Fazio.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to Mr. Guy-Smith for assisting me.
19 Q. Did the Roma families continue to reside in the village after the
20 speech by Mr. Shalja?
21 A. No.
22 Q. When did they leave?
23 A. The same day.
24 Q. Did you actually see them leaving?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Did you make any inquiries or try and find out why they were
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What sort of inquiries did you make and what did you find out, if
6 A. We were asking them why they were leaving, and they said that the
7 whole town was already full of weapons and people were frightened and they
8 wanted to leave.
9 Q. Did any other ethnic groups also depart at the same time that the
10 Roma and Egyptian families were departing?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Now, you didn't -- you didn't go, did you? I think you remained
13 for some time in Junik; correct?
14 A. Right.
15 Q. All right. Can you tell the Trial Chamber why you - you and your
16 family - didn't leave?
17 A. Well, I thought that I was a decent person, that I had done no
18 harm to anybody, and I didn't see any reason why I should leave my home.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, how long did you remain in Junik before finally
20 leaving, following this episode where Mr. Shalja gave his speech?
21 A. Very shortly after my window was broken by that stone, I went to
22 see the leader of the democratic party to complain and tell him what had
23 happened to me. And he advised me to spend some time, and especially the
24 night, away from my home, to go to some friends or family, but only a day
25 later the war broke out in Junik.
1 Q. Okay. Just think about this question that I'm going to ask you
2 now, please. Take your time in answering it. Cast your mind back to
3 1998, in May. Think about how things happened over days, and so on.
4 You said that Shalja gave a speech and he had insignia on his
5 uniform; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You remember that. You were there. You heard him give his talk;
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, at the time that he gave his talk and you're there listening
11 to him, had the rock been thrown through your window? Was it then?
12 A. That night, when the weapons were brought, that same night a rock
13 was thrown through my window. When they had already moved away, somebody
14 threw a rock through my window.
15 Q. Okay, all right. How long after Mr. Shalja gave his speech that
16 you went to hear did you go and speak to the democratic party man? About
17 how long after that, would you say? Was it hours, days, weeks? How long?
18 A. Several hours after that rally was over.
19 Q. All right. Anyway, one thing is clear in your mind, is that the
20 sequence of events is this: The rock was thrown at your window --
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: At this point, objection. Asked and answered.
22 We've now been through rocks and windows on a number of occasions.
23 She's --
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I'm --
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Mr. Di Fazio. On a number of
1 occasions. I think the sequence is quite clear. The record speaks for
2 itself. I don't believe Mr. Di Fazio necessarily has received the answer
3 that he wants, but that's an entirely different matter.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: I have heard the answers and I know them, and I
6 think these --
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you just want to repeat the answers, then the
8 Chamber is in a position to read the answers, so that's -- and we have
9 heard the answers as well. Unless it is a necessary introduction for your
10 next question, but -- please proceed.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, timing is all important, and it's not a
12 question of me trying to rectify any answers that have been given. I've
13 heard all the answers, and I've heard what the witness has said, if Your
14 Honours please.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
16 MR. DI FAZIO:
17 Q. You've mentioned certain events, the rock-throwing episode and
18 going to speak to the leader of the democratic party, and you've also
19 mentioned war. How long after you speaking to the democratic party man
20 did war break out?
21 A. Another 24 hours later.
22 Q. Did you take the advice and go and stay with friends, the advice
23 of the democratic party man?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did your family also go?
1 A. Yes, except my father and my step-mother.
2 Q. What did they do?
3 A. They stayed at the apartment, and I went to my neighbours to spend
4 the night.
5 Q. You spent the entire night there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What happened the next morning?
8 A. The next morning, around 7.00, shooting started, targeting the
9 house of that neighbour where I was spending the night, and the fire was
10 so strong that we couldn't even dart outside to get the firewood to light
11 some fire or to get some food.
12 Q. Now, you've mentioned the war starting. Was this shooting -- as
13 far as you could tell, as far as you could tell, was this associated with
14 what you call "the war starting" or not?
15 A. Yes, yes. It was fighting between the police and the KLA. It was
16 very fierce fighting and there was fire at our house, the house where I
17 was staying.
18 Q. Okay. And what was the reaction of you and your family?
19 A. Well, it was bad for us. We had no choice -- in fact, I had no
20 choice but to crawl to my apartment to get my personal documents and to
21 get my clothes.
22 Q. And did your family also crawl with you back to your house?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You've mentioned the war starting and you've mentioned shooting at
25 the house that you were in, the place where you had gone to stay
1 overnight. Was that all rifle fire or automatic weapons fire, small-arms
2 fire, as far as you could tell?
3 A. It was mainly from automatic rifles and light weapons, but there
4 were also very strong hits.
5 Q. Was there anything, as far as you could tell, that sounded to you
6 at least like heavy-weapon fire, cannons, or anything like that?
7 A. I think it was mainly shells, those shells from RPGs. I don't
8 know much about that, but I know the approximate name for an RPG
9 rifle-propelled grenade and that when it hits the house, the whole house
11 Q. Thank you. You and your family made it back to your house. What
12 happened there?
13 A. I came to fetch my ID and to put on some clothes, but we had no
14 time, really. Men in camouflage came with black balaclavas and two
15 civilians with them. I know for a fact there were four of them and they
16 came into my apartment.
17 Q. Well, I'll ask you about them in just a moment. Now, just before
18 they arrived, which members of your family were gathered there? Now,
19 remember, don't use any of their names; just tell us who they were. To
20 start off, was your father there, for example?
21 A. There was my father, my step-mother, my sister-in-law, my sister,
22 two children of my brother, myself. The children were small, my brother's
23 children were small. And there was also my aunt and my cousin.
24 Q. Did your aunt -- was your aunt married? If she was, was her
25 husband there?
1 A. No, no, she was already a widow by that time.
2 Q. All right. Now, you've told us that some men arrived. You've
3 told us they had black balaclavas and two civilians and that they were
4 wearing camouflage. Were they armed?
5 A. Yes, they were.
6 Q. Did you recognise any of them?
7 A. No, not those who were masked. They looked familiar, but I
8 couldn't tell who they were.
9 Q. What about -- what about the other men who were not masked? Did
10 you recognise them?
11 A. No, but they were from the area.
12 Q. How do you know?
13 A. I know because I'd never seen them in Junik.
14 Q. All right. Now, at about this time that you've got back to your
15 house, you've crawled back to your house and the masked men arrive, were
16 civilians in the town of Junik doing anything?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were they behaving in any particular way?
19 A. They had left their homes and formed a column, a convoy.
20 Q. And you've told us that you live near the main street. Was this
21 column anywhere near the main street?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. When you went back to your house, when you went back to your house
24 with your family on your hands and knees, but before the KL -- let me
25 withdraw that question.
1 When you went back to your house but before the men in camouflage
2 uniforms came to your house, did you have any plans? Did you have an idea
3 about what you wanted to do, what you were going to do about the
5 A. My thinking was that I should go out, too, and join the convoy
6 with my family, because I had already been told by the president of the
7 democratic party that -- in fact, he said to me, When I go with my family,
8 you and yours will go, too.
9 Q. Thank you. I'll just finish off this topic, if Your Honours
10 please, and then would it be an appropriate time?
11 JUDGE ORIE: It would be an appropriate time for a break.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Could I just have another two or three minutes, and
13 I'll finish this topic off, if that's okay.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine.
15 MR. DI FAZIO:
16 Q. Now, let's get back to the men in camouflage uniforms. When they
17 came in, did they say anything to you?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Tell us, what did they say?
20 A. "Come on, get out and join our column. Get out of your apartment.
21 It seems that somebody in your building was killed."
22 THE INTERPRETER: The witness's microphone went off in the middle
23 of this answer.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Could we just check the microphone of the witness
25 and ...
1 Witness 38, we heard there was a little problem with your
2 microphone. Could you say a few words in order to test the microphone,
3 whether it's functioning well.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, of course. No problem.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: All right.
7 Q. I was just asking you to tell us what the camouflage -- the men in
8 camouflage uniform said to you, and you told us before your microphone
9 ceased to function that they said: "Come on, get out, join our column.
10 Get out of your apartment. It seems that somebody in your building was
12 Did they say anything more than -- just listen. Hang on. Did
13 they say anything more beyond that?
14 A. They said, Somebody was killed in your apartment and stay all
15 together, your entire family, and don't move away from the column.
16 Somebody was killed up there in the loft. Stick together, all of you.
17 Q. Did you join the column?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. And were the armed men in camouflage uniform with you, or take you
20 to the column, or did they leave? How was it -- what did they do after
21 they gave you these instructions?
22 A. No, they stayed at the apartment and climbed up to the loft to
23 fight, and one of them just escorted us to the column.
24 Q. Thank you. And just before we -- the very last question: Your
25 apartment, was it -- or house, was it in an apartment block or was it a
1 single, free-standing house? What sort of place was it?
2 A. No. It's a building, a military-owned building, in the centre of
3 Junik. It was known as the military building. There were six flats on
4 three storeys, and there was a loft.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 38, we'll have a break. I'll first ask
7 Madam Usher to escort you out of the courtroom.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right, thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We'll break for approximately half an hour.
10 [The witness stands down]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, one question for you. You spent until
12 now 57 minutes examining this witness. The witness was scheduled for one
13 hour and a half. Do you think you will -- I'm looking at your list, the
14 filed list, Mr. Re.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I know, Your Honour. I'm, unfortunately,
16 going slower than I thought I would. I can't finish this witness in that
18 JUDGE ORIE: How much time do you think you would need?
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Another hour and a quarter.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider the matter over the break. Of
21 course, the concern of the Chamber is that an assessment of times it takes
22 to examine the witness and -- to be quite honest, the witness is
23 responding to your questions, so I do not know what made you expect that
24 it would be far quicker than -- because it should be far quicker. If you
25 need another one hour and a quarter, that's two hours and a quarter,
1 that's approximately 50 per cent more time. I don't know. It's not
2 entirely clear to me what made you expect that this witness would testify
3 in a different speed.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not, perhaps, discuss it at this moment. We'll
6 consider the matter.
7 We'll have a break until a quarter past 4.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 3.51 p.m.
9 [The witness takes the stand]
10 --- On resuming at 4.36 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 38, we have a bit of a later start. I was
12 informed that you find it not easy, which is quite understandable. It's
13 perhaps your first experience in a courtroom, so it's fully understood.
14 If you feel not at ease, please tell me, just let me know, and we'll find
15 a solution in whatever way. Yes?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and I apologise.
17 JUDGE ORIE: No need for apologies.
18 Mr. Di Fazio, the Chamber would like to encourage you to see
19 whether you could finish in some 60 minutes. You're encouraged to do
20 that. And you know the Prosecution has been granted time.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: I've performed some surgery on my notes. So I hope
22 that will -- I hope that will do the trick.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
24 Then Mr. Di Fazio will now continue his examination.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
2 Q. Witness, before the break, we were talking about the convoy that
3 you saw and your joining the convoy. Did you join the convoy?
4 A. Yes. They told me to join the convoy.
5 Q. Is there any --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, you had such a nice routine before the
7 break, switching off your microphone, but you seem to have forgotten about
8 it. Please --
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. I will do my utmost to
10 remember that.
11 Q. Is there an area of Junik called Gaciferi?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did the convoy go to Gaciferi or via Gaciferi?
14 A. It went towards Gacifer.
15 Q. Did you remain with the convoy after you joined it?
16 A. I remained with them until the very centre of Junik, as far as
18 Q. Did you ever leave the convoy or column?
19 A. No. I asked to go in the direction of Rastavica, but they would
20 not let me.
21 Q. Who prevented you?
22 A. One of the KLA members.
23 Q. Did your passage in the convoy take you anywhere near Gaciferi?
24 A. Yes, it did.
25 Q. Did anything happen at Gaciferi?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What happened?
3 A. They told me to go in the house of Qazim Gaciferi.
4 Q. Hold it there, please. At this point of time, did you see any
5 vehicles anywhere?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What vehicles did you see?
8 A. I saw different vehicles, and there was a jeep among them.
9 Q. Now, you said: "They told me to go in the house of Qazim
10 Gaciferi." Who is "they"?
11 A. KLA members.
12 Q. And did you go to the house of Mr. Gaciferi?
13 A. Yes. Yes, we did.
14 Q. Was that your family?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Sorry, I'll be clear. Was your family - your family - did that --
17 did your family leave the convoy and go to the house of Mr. Gaciferi?
18 A. Yes, with me.
19 Q. Do you have any names of anyone who told you to leave the convoy
20 and go to this house?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Who gave you instructions or who told you to do that?
23 A. Nimon Tofa and Muharem Knushi, aka Giqa.
24 Q. Can you remember how they were dressed at the time that they
25 instructed you to leave the convoy?
1 A. Muharem, called Giqa, was in a black camouflage uniform, but this
2 other guy, he was still in civilian clothes but he had an automatic rifle
3 in his hands.
4 Q. You've mentioned your family was taken out of the convoy. Were
5 there any other people - and I don't want to hear their names - but were
6 there any other people of Roma ethnicity or Egyptian ethnicity who were
7 taken out of the convoy?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Leading. I think he can ask were any other people
10 taken out of the convoy and then find out who those people were, as
11 opposed to suggesting a particular kind of person or ethnic group that may
12 have been taken out of the convoy.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll rephrase my question.
14 Q. When you were taken out of the convoy, were any other people taken
15 out of the convoy with you, apart from you and your family -- in addition
16 to you and your family?
17 A. Yes, they were.
18 Q. What ethnicity were those people?
19 A. Romas.
20 Q. Was it your choice to be -- to leave the convoy?
21 A. No, no. We were ordered to do so.
22 Q. And did you finally -- did you make your way to the Gaciferi
24 A. Yes, we did.
25 Q. Now, at the Gaciferi house, you've told us that your family was
1 taken out of the convoy and other Romas were and taken to this house. Did
2 you see any soldiers at this house? Now, you've already told us about
3 Tofa and the other man Giqa. Now, apart from Tofa and Giqa, were there
4 any other soldiers at the Gaciferi house that you saw?
5 A. When we entered at that moment, no, but some arrived a bit later.
6 Q. Names? Do you have any names for those people?
7 A. I'm trying to remember.
8 Q. That's all right. If you can't remember, that's fine. Can you --
9 do you have any memory of the names; if not, don't worry about it.
10 MR. EMMERSON: I'm so sorry. Just before Mr. Di Fazio continues,
11 that question, "Do you have any names," I wonder if he would be kind
12 enough at each stage to break down the question by asking the witness
13 whether there was anybody who she knew prior to that event and knew their
14 name, rather than simply saying, "Do you have any names," so the
15 foundation can be laid for the witness' knowledge of the name that she's
17 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that; I understand Mr. Emmerson's
18 concerns. I know what he's driving at, and I can certainly accommodate
19 him. But the episode that I'm actually -- what I thought I was dealing
20 with here is not the episode that he is concerned with. But I understand
21 his worries and I'll deal with that.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
23 Witness 38, these are legal, procedural matters you don't have to
24 worry about. Just listen and give your answers.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. DI FAZIO:
2 Q. You've told us that you saw some cars in the vicinity of the
3 Gaciferi house and one of those cars you described as a jeep. Did you see
4 that jeep again after the first time you laid eyes on it?
5 A. Yes, I did another time by the mill.
6 Q. How far -- just relax, Witness. You're doing very well. I know
7 you're doing your best to try to answer my questions, and it's a strange
8 environment, but you just do your best; all right?
9 How far was the mill -- how far was the mill, approximately, from
10 the Gaciferi house?
11 A. Well, approximately half a kilometre.
12 Q. Did you go to the mill?
13 A. Yes, we did, in the afternoon.
14 Q. Was that your family as well?
15 A. Yes, I went there myself with my family.
16 Q. And you also mentioned earlier that some other people of Roma
17 ethnicity had been taken from the convoy with you to the Gaciferi house,
18 people in addition to your family. Were they also -- did they go to the
19 mill or not?
20 A. They came quite a bit later, after I had arrived there.
21 Q. Now, let's concentrate on the period of time between the Gaciferi
22 house and the mill; all right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Were you free to move your hands in the time that -- in between
25 the Gaciferi house and the mill? Could you move your hands?
1 A. Up to the mill, yes.
2 Q. Were you clothed between the time that you moved from the Gaciferi
3 house to the mill?
4 A. Yes, I was, to the mill, up to the mill.
5 Q. All right, thank you. Now, you've told us that you and your
6 family went to the mill, and you've also told us that you saw a jeep
7 there. Before I ask you any more about the car, I'd like to ask you about
8 what happened to you, if anything happened to you, at the mill. Was your
9 father with you?
10 A. My father, my sister, my entire family, were with me. And if I
11 can answer your question in terms of what happened at the mill --
12 Q. Well, I'm going to ask you that. Just let me ask you a question
14 A. All right.
15 Q. Did you have any financial booklet, any book dealing with
16 financial matters, with you?
17 A. Yes, I had it among my personal papers.
18 Q. Your father, was he wearing a moustache at the time? Sorry, did
19 he have a moustache at the time?
20 A. Yes, he did have a moustache.
21 Q. Now, are you able to go on? You sure?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. Now, I want you to tell the Trial Chamber, tell the Judges, what
24 happened to you and your father at the mill.
25 A. After we arrived at the mill, a member of the KLA named
1 Aslan Luluni walked up to us and he started mistreating us, first me. He
2 had me undress, and he rummaged through my bag and my personal documents,
3 and he found my bank-book. He tore it in half, and he had me swallow one
4 half of the book. Then he grabbed my father, and he pulled him by the
5 moustache, and he pulled out half of his moustache, right there on the
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, but I
8 just can't bear it.
9 MR. DI FAZIO:
10 Q. Thank you. Mr. Luluni, can you remember how he was dressed?
11 A. He was in a camouflage uniform.
12 Q. Now, when Mr. Luluni walked up to you, was he in company with
13 anyone else?
14 A. Yes. The nephew of Nimon Tofa was there, the guy I mentioned a
15 while ago. It was actually the son of his brother.
16 Q. Anyone else?
17 A. No. This jeep drove up a bit later to that spot.
18 Q. You'd mentioned the jeep driving up a bit later. In relation to
19 what was happening to you and your father, the forced removal of your
20 clothes and your father's moustache, those events, in relation to those
21 events, when did the jeep appear?
22 A. After they had tied my hands and my father's hands with barbed
23 wire and left me there, naked as I was, and after they had beaten up my
24 father, some ten minutes later, the jeep arrived.
25 Q. Was your father tied?
1 A. Yes, he was.
2 Q. What was the weather like?
3 A. It was raining heavily. It was very bad weather.
4 Q. And where was the remainder of your family, apart from you and
5 your father?
6 A. They were there but a bit farther away from that spot, 4 or 5
7 metres. My sister-in-law actually took her children a bit away so that
8 they wouldn't see what was being done to me and my father.
9 Q. Were you, your father, and the remainder of your family, and the
10 children, exposed to the remain?
11 A. Yes. We were outside.
12 Q. When you and your father were tied, were you close to each other,
13 or can you tell us how far apart you were?
14 A. Well, they were a bit off, a bit farther from that spot, from me
15 and my -- where I and my father were.
16 Q. You tell me if I'm right. I just want to understand your
17 evidence. Were you and your father close together?
18 A. Yes, we were.
19 Q. All right. So the picture that you've just painted of you and
20 your father tied up in the rain, with the remainder of your family some
21 distance away, in relation to that period of time, when did the jeep
23 A. After some 15 or 20 minutes, at most.
24 Q. Okay. Now, let's -- I want to ask you about the jeep. Were there
25 people -- obviously, there was a driver, but was it just a driver or were
1 there other people in the jeep?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I'm sorry, my question --
4 A. No, there were other people, too.
5 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber who was in the jeep.
6 A. Aslan -- no, sorry, Knushi, called Giqa, and Ramush Haradinaj were
7 in the jeep.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
9 MR. DI FAZIO:
10 Q. Just cast your mind back, okay, and tell us what you saw. Okay,
11 just tell us what you saw. How many men in the jeep?
12 A. I cannot recall exactly whether there were three or four of them,
13 but I saw those who left the jeep, who got out of the jeep, with my own
14 eyes; Muharem and Ramush, although I had not known them before.
15 Q. The man you called -- the man you refer to or call Ramush, had you
16 ever seen him before up until that point?
17 A. That's right. No, I had not.
18 Q. Let's talk about Muharem first. How was he dressed?
19 A. It was a camouflage uniform. Basically, it was all black.
20 Q. The time that you -- the jeep stopped and you say these men got
21 out, how far away was that from you and your father?
22 A. Some 30 metres.
23 Q. All right. What did the men who got out of the jeep do once they
24 first got out of the jeep?
25 A. They talked to Aslan Luluni who had tied our hands before that and
1 who had mistreated us before that.
2 Q. Thinking back, about how far away from you were this group of men
3 when they started talking?
4 A. Well, approximately 20 or 30 metres. Perhaps a bit more than
5 that. I cannot recall because I was very traumatised at the time.
6 Q. Yes, all right. Now, you said that there was a man there who you
7 ascribed the name Ramush Haradinaj to?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You hadn't seen that man up until that point of time; correct?
10 A. That's correct. No, I hadn't.
11 Q. This man that you call Ramush Haradinaj, what was he wearing?
12 A. Camouflage uniform.
13 Q. Can you remember any other features about his clothing or anything
14 that he had with him? Anything at all? Any pieces of equipment?
15 Anything that you can recall will be of assistance.
16 A. I remember he had a radio with him, a cap on his head, two of
17 those badges stuck into his pocket in the shape of the letter V.
18 Q. All right. Could you hear any of the conversation that was going
19 on amongst these men?
20 A. I couldn't hear because they were talking on the radio, but I know
21 that Aslan turned towards me again and started abusing me very badly.
22 Q. Doing what, precisely?
23 A. He was beating me with his rifle butt. He was cursing me all the
24 way, mentioning Milosevic and Mircic, saying, If Milosevic doesn't come to
25 rescue you, nobody will, and things like that. And that's how he was
1 talking to me all the way, and my father.
2 Q. All right. Just so the Trial Chamber understands this evidence,
3 you mentioned a name that he was mentioning Mircic. Just a minute. Just
4 a minute, Witness.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: It might be an idea if we go into private session
6 just very briefly, Your Honours. I apologise for that.
7 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 MR. DI FAZIO:
24 Q. All right. While Luluni was beating you on this occasion, that
25 last occasion you've just described when he was mentioning these persons'
1 names, Milosevic and so on, where was the man that you -- you say was
2 Ramush Haradinaj?
3 A. Somebody called him. The jeep stopped immediately. In fact, he
4 left and Aslan Luluni stayed and this relative of Nimon Tofa.
5 Q. I understand that, but what I want to know is this: You've
6 described that Luluni had already done bad things to you and your father
7 and then, as I understand your evidence, he did other things -- there was
8 a second episode where he did bad things, using the rifle-butt and so on.
9 Now, on this second occasion when he used the rifle-butt and beat you, at
10 that point of time, was the man that you know as Ramush Haradinaj, or you
11 say is Ramush Haradinaj, was he present or not?
12 A. The first time we were beaten he wasn't there. Later he -- later
13 the beating stopped. Then the jeep appeared, and the man who was beating
14 us stopped and went to the jeep.
15 Q. Tell us this: When you saw the man that you say was
16 Ramush Haradinaj, were your hands tied?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And your father's?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Very well. I'm going to jump ahead -- I'll withdraw that
22 Did you ever see the man you say is -- was Ramush Haradinaj again?
23 A. Only on TV.
24 Q. About how long after this episode was that?
25 A. Between three and a half and four months, because I was very, very
2 Q. What sort of television programmes did you see him on?
3 A. Albanian TV.
4 Q. How often did you see him on Albanian TV?
5 A. Every other day, or once in three days, or maybe even more often.
6 Every time there would be a news bulletin, he would be on it.
7 Q. Going back to the scene now where you're tied up with barbed wire,
8 about --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, there are a few matters which are not
10 entirely clear to me, and I'd like to seek clarification from the witness.
11 I have a few matters which are not entirely clear to me. You were
12 asked about the man you called Ramush Haradinaj, about what he was
13 wearing, and then you were also asked about conversation going on amongst
14 these men. Then you said: "I couldn't hear because they were talking on
15 the radio."
16 When you said that, you were referring to the man who had arrived
17 in the jeep or ...?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant to say that he was talking
19 on the radio, this hand-held radio he had with him. Who he was talking
20 to, I can't possibly know.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And when you say "he," you meant the man you called
22 Ramush Haradinaj before?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment I didn't know because
24 I hadn't seen him before, but from that time on I saw him frequently on TV
25 and I knew that it was him.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you also said -- you said: "I couldn't hear
2 because they were talking on the radio," and then your answer continued,
3 where you said: "But I know that Aslan turned towards me again and
4 started abusing me very badly."
5 You remember that answer?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Now, a couple of minutes -- couple of minutes
8 later -- I'm just trying to find it. Yes. A couple of minutes later,
9 when you were asked about whether the man you called Ramush Haradinaj was
10 present or not, you said the following. You said: "The first time we
11 were beaten he wasn't there. Later," you said, "later, the beatings
12 stopped. Then the jeep appeared and the man who was beating us stopped
13 and went to the jeep."
14 Now, the part of the answer I referred to earlier says, I couldn't
15 follow this radio conversation and then Aslan, I think you said Aslan,
16 turned to me again, beating you again. In this portion of the answer, the
17 later answer, you said: "The first time we were beaten, he wasn't there
18 and the beating stopped when the jeep appeared."
19 Now, I hope you understand that I have to see whether the beatings
20 stopped at all when the jeep appeared, as your later answer suggests a
21 bit, or whether what you said earlier, that the jeep arrived, there was
22 some radio conversation and that then one of these persons, I think you
23 called him Aslan, went again to you, started beating again.
24 Now, what was it? Was the beating stopped at the time the jeep
25 arrived and when the person beating you went to the jeep, or did it
1 recommence later, as you said, Aslan came back to me again? So was it
2 recommencing after the arrival of the jeep, when it had, from what I
3 understand, stopped at the arrival of the jeep, or did it not recommence
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he started beating us again.
6 He went at one point to the jeep, talked to them, and then returned and
7 started beating us for the second time, and the abuse resumed.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this clarification.
9 Mr. Di Fazio.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
11 Q. During the time that Ramush Haradinaj was there - Haradinaj, I'm
12 sorry, I should pronounce -- I think that's the correct pronunciation -
13 did you have any clothes on?
14 A. No, I did not.
15 Q. Doing the best you can, how long was Mr. Haradinaj there?
16 A. Very briefly.
17 Q. Okay. Did you eventually leave the area of the mill?
18 A. Yes, after a lot of fighting.
19 Q. Just return very briefly for one moment. I'm sorry, just one more
20 matter that I want to raise with you.
21 When Mr. Haradinaj was there, how did Aslan Luluni and the other
22 men with him refer to Mr. Haradinaj, if at all? How did they deal with
24 A. As with commander.
25 Q. What do you mean by that? I want to understand. Is there
1 something they did that makes you say that, or something you heard, or
2 something they did and something you heard? Why do you say that?
3 A. I heard that's how they addressed him, but what they actually
4 said, I wasn't able to hear.
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And may I also clarify some point concerning this
6 short period of time when the man you called Ramush Haradinaj was there.
7 Was it during this presence, in his presence, that this second beating
8 occurred? Can you remember that?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had gone by then. He wasn't
10 present when they were beating us. I was naked while being beaten, and
11 the man who beat me stopped for a while to go and see him, and when he
12 returned, he started beating me again.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. All right. I would like to move on fairly fast now, if you can
16 assist me, Witness. Did you eventually rejoin the convoy or column?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Were you with your family?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Were you clothed?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You said you had been tied. Had you been untied -- were you
23 untied before rejoining the convoy?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And your father, was he tied or untied when you rejoined the
2 A. He was also tied.
3 Q. All right. And which direction was the -- was this column of
4 people headed in?
5 A. Towards Djocaj, Jesic. That's the direction of Albania.
6 Q. Later the Judges would like to -- later, they would like to know
7 where these places are. Now, first of all, Djocaj, is that a separate
8 village from Jasic or Jesic?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber this: Was the column headed in the
11 general direction of the Albanian border?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you and your group eventually stop and camp overnight?
14 A. No. We stopped somewhere in the middle of the woods, and it
15 started raining heavily.
16 Q. What I'd like to -- if you could just briefly give us --
17 A. We didn't get to the camp. We stopped in the middle of the woods.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's apology.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay, all right.
20 Q. That night, when you stayed out, what I want to know is was it
21 just your group, or were you part of the convoy that stopped or column
22 that stopped?
23 A. No, no. We were separated from the column. The column continued
24 on. We were singled out and left at Jasic.
25 Q. Well, you've told us that you and your father, at least, were tied
1 up. Were you free to leave, to walk away, to go wherever you want to --
2 you might have wanted to?
3 A. Not really.
4 Q. Well, why not? Tell the Trial Chamber why you weren't free to
5 make your decisions about where to go.
6 A. Because we had an escort.
7 Q. Who was that?
8 A. A member of the KLA, but he was in civilian clothes.
9 Q. All right. And I just want to be absolutely clear about this.
10 You say he was an escort. Were you at liberty -- did you feel that you
11 could tell your escort that you wanted to leave; you didn't want to be
12 escorted anymore?
13 A. We begged him but he said, I can't let you go. I have my orders.
14 I have to be with you at all times.
15 Q. You stayed overnight at this location and the next day; is that
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did anything happen to your sister the next day?
19 A. Yes. A group of men came, wanted to abuse and rape her, but some
20 other men did not let them. And this first group -- in fact the man from
21 the first group who wanted to rape my sister said, Why bother with that
22 one since this one is already naked and ready? But the person who was
23 guarding us didn't let them.
24 Q. Did you remain in that area for that day and again for a second
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Did your condition remain the same; namely, were you still
3 tied and still naked?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. I want to now skip the events of the night, the second night in
6 that location, and I want you to take us to the next day. Did you leave
7 your camp site, or your -- the area where you'd been for two nights, and
8 go somewhere?
9 A. Yes. I was allowed to get dressed because I was already getting a
10 fever, and we went -- we set off towards Jasici.
11 Q. Was the man who was your escort -- was your escort still with you?
12 A. Until halfway, yes.
13 Q. And where -- where did he go after the halfway -- let me rephrase
14 that. Let me withdraw that question.
15 Whose idea was it to set off to Jasici?
16 A. He told us to go towards Jasici, up to Aslan Djoci's house.
17 Q. Were you given any explanation where you were going, why you were
18 going, and whose idea it was that you should go to this place?
19 A. I don't know who decided it, but they told us to go to
20 Aslan Djoci's house because the headquarters was there.
21 Q. Headquarters of what? Headquarters of what?
22 A. The KLA.
23 Q. Now, who -- when you say: "They told us to go to Aslan Djoci's
24 house," who is "they"? Who do you mean by that?
25 A. I mean members of the KLA.
1 Q. And so the man who had been escorting you over the previous two
2 days, he left your group; do I understand you correctly?
3 A. Yes, until we got near the house of Aslan Djoci.
4 Q. Did you have any other escort from that point onwards?
5 A. No. When we got in, there were a lot of them inside, enough to
6 keep an eye on us.
7 Q. All right. Now, again, just explain to the Trial Chamber who you
8 mean by "them," "a lot of them." A lot of who, precisely?
9 A. I mean the KLA army, members of the KLA, or UCK. I mean them.
10 Q. Just tell the Trial Chamber a bit about the geography of
11 Aslan Djoci's house. Where -- where, precisely, was it located?
12 A. On a hill which is almost as high as a mountain, very close to the
13 Albanian border, almost at the border.
14 Q. And there was a house on this hill, is that right, Aslan Djoci's
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, tell the Trial Chamber, the sort of numbers of
18 men that you saw -- the KLA army members that you saw at Aslan Djoci's
19 house. Was it one or two or more than that? Give us a figure, if you
21 A. More, more. Lots of them.
22 Q. Did you see any armaments or weapons there?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MR. DI FAZIO:
1 Q. Well, tell -- can you give the Trial Chamber any assistance on the
2 amount of weapons that you saw there. Was there -- did all of the KLA men
3 that you saw there have a gun or not? Did you see weapons by themselves?
4 If you can assist, try and give a more accurate description of the amount
5 of weaponry that may -- that you saw there.
6 A. There was a lot of weapons there in the -- there was a heap in the
7 middle of the yard. The yard was a big one. Everybody whom I saw there
8 was armed. And then there were quite a few people in the yard, in that
9 area around the house of Aslan Djoci. It was actually the nest where they
10 kept all the weapons which they had brought. They brought it to his
11 house -- to the yard, actually. There were crates, boxes, lying every
12 which way. There were all sorts of things in the yard.
13 Q. Okay. Now, at this point in time, you were -- were you with your
15 A. Yes, I was.
16 Q. Let's just run through them again. Again, no names, all right?
17 So your father was there -- just tell us who was there but no names.
18 A. My father was there; I, myself, was there; my step-mother was
19 there; my sister, too; my sister-in-law; and two minor children were with
20 us; seven family members in all.
21 Q. Did this house have a back yard or an area at the back of the
23 A. Yes, it did have, and there were entrances on two sides to the
25 Q. When you arrived there, where were you taken?
1 A. We were taken to the house of Riza Djoci, which is the next-door
3 Q. Are there a number of houses located on top of this hill?
4 A. One could see from those two houses a place called Rastavica, and
5 these two houses were quite near one another.
6 Q. Thank you. And when you were taken to the house of Riza Djoci, at
7 that point were you and your family taken anywhere?
8 A. Yes, we were.
9 Q. Is there a geographical feature or a ravine or small valley near
10 Riza Djoci's house?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were you taken anywhere close to that?
13 A. Yes. We were taken to a place. There is -- near this house there
14 is some sort of a ridge, some sort of an edge, and there we were lined up.
15 Q. All your family?
16 A. All my family.
17 Q. Did you see any weapons nearby? At that point of time when you
18 were lined up, did you see a weapon nearby?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. What sort of weapon?
21 A. It was a machine-gun.
22 Q. All right. I want you to tell us now, in your own words, what
24 A. Are you talking about what happened in the house of Riza Djoci?
25 Q. I'm talking about what happened when you and your family were
1 lined up and there was a machine-gun nearby.
2 A. They told us to stand in a line, to line up one next to another.
3 And there was a boy, a young lad not even of age, and one of those
4 soldiers came and he ordered him to execute us. (redacted)
9 As they quarrelled, someone hit me, kicked me, and I fell down the
10 slope. And then my father rolled after me, and then my family ran down
11 the slope -- down the hill. And we fell to where a river was, and that
12 river -- this water-course is called Erenik, where the place was where we
13 fell. And this is a -- this is a very powerful river, but we fell where
14 there was a smaller water-course nearby.
15 Q. Thank you. Did you and your family make your way to a place
16 called Batusa, I think it is?
17 A. Yes, we did.
18 Q. And there did you come across what were then Yugoslavian army
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And did they take you into their custody and -- well, did they
22 take you and your family off to -- off to get some help and assistance?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you very much.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I have no further
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.
3 One second, please.
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one or two minor matters perhaps on
6 which I'd like to be sure that I understood your testimony well.
7 First is, again, the same issue. You were beaten, the beating
8 stopped when the jeep arrived, the man who was beating you went to the
9 jeep, there was conversation, then the man returned to you and the beating
10 recommenced. Did I understand you well that those who came in the jeep,
11 one of them you called Ramush Haradinaj, had left already when the beating
12 recommenced? Is that well understood or ...?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.
15 Then one other matter. You were asked why you said that the man
16 dealt with Ramush Haradinaj "as with commander," and you said the
17 following. You said: "I heard that's how they addressed him, but what
18 they actually said I wasn't able to hear." What I'd like to know from
19 you, where you said "I heard that's how they addressed him," that could be
20 understood in two different ways; either that you heard these men
21 addressing the man you call Ramush Haradinaj as "Commander," or that you
22 were told by these men or by anyone else that they addressed him, or would
23 address him, as "Commander."
24 Now, did you hear with your own ears these men addressing the man
25 you called Ramush Haradinaj as "Commander" or did you hear later or at the
1 same time from other people that's how they address him? Which of the two
2 is what you meant to say?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There might have been a mistake
4 there, but one of them addressed him, "Commander." I'm not quite sure,
5 and I apologise. Maybe they didn't address that title to him but to
6 another one; there were two of them there. But I did hear the word --
7 them say the word "Commander."
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you're not certain about whom of the
9 persons that arrived in the jeep was addressed when they used the
10 word "commander"; is that correctly understood?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, you are right. Maybe they were
12 addressing this other person as commander. There was a man from Junik
13 there who had arrived there with him, Muharem Knushi, Giqa. Maybe that
14 was addressed to him. I only heard a voice say "Commander." And they
15 were addressing them, "Comrade Commander," or "Commander."
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for this clarification.
17 Mr. Emmerson, I'm looking at the clock, perhaps -- I take it,
18 since you've announced that you might need a bit more time for
19 cross-examination anyhow, that we'll almost certainly not finish today;
20 that perhaps first have a break because we can continue up to 7.00 from
21 now on.
22 MR. EMMERSON: I'm happy make a start now, if you would like me
23 to, or we can take a break now.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE ORIE: We'll soon have a break, but Judge Hoepfel has one
1 question in which he seeks further clarification.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Witness, may I just ask you for clarification.
3 You and your family, are you from a Roma background yourself? Because you
4 were asked about other Romas and that was not expressly said before, what
5 your own origin is, or background.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am a Roma, but my mother tongue is
7 Albanian, and I was educated in Albanian.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not quite get the first part
9 of the second portion of the answer.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The interpreter did not quite get the first part
11 of the second portion of your answer, and, in fact, I would have asked you
12 that anyway; that would have been my second question, about your mother
13 tongue. Can you explain that once more?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Albanian is my mother tongue. I
15 cannot speak the Romani language. Our school was in Albanian, and it is
16 Albanian that I speak better.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
19 Witness 38, we'll have a break. After the break, you'll be
20 examined by counsel for the accused. That will -- we'll not go any
21 further today than 7.00. We most likely will not finish today, but we'll
23 We'll have a break until five minutes past 6.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 5.46 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 38, the first counsel that will cross-examine
2 you is Mr. Emmerson, counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
3 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
5 Q. Witness 38, I want to ask you, first of all, following up from
6 Judge Hoepfel's question, one or two questions about language. You told
7 us that your mother tongue is Albanian; is that right?
8 A. That's right.
9 Q. You're giving your evidence, I think, in Serbian; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So you are fluent in Serbian?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you understand any other languages?
14 A. Just Serbian and Albanian.
15 Q. So you don't understand English at all?
16 A. No.
17 Q. I want to start by asking you about the incident at the mill at
18 Gacifer when you say that you and your father were stripped naked and
19 beaten, and you were made by Aslan Luluni to eat your pocketbook. You've
20 told us --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Your bank-book, I take it.
22 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
23 Q. Your bank-book. You've told us that this happened after you had
24 been beaten and stripped naked, and that a Suzuki jeep then drew up; is
25 that right?
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I don't remember having heard of a Suzuki.
2 MR. EMMERSON: I apologise.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that you're quoting from the statement
4 rather than-- please proceed.
5 MR. EMMERSON: Let me put the question again.
6 Q. You have told us that you were beaten and stripped naked, and then
7 a jeep drew up after that first beating had taken place; is that right?
8 A. We were at the mill. We were not taken there in a jeep, but we
9 were there. That much is correct.
10 Q. You've told us that you believe that one of the men who drew up in
11 the jeep was Ramush Haradinaj, and I want to make it absolutely clear to
12 you at the outset of the questions I'm going to ask what it is I am
13 suggesting to you. I am suggesting to you that you are wrong and that
14 Ramush Haradinaj was not in Junik or in Gacifer or anywhere near the mill
15 or in a jeep in that vicinity on the 28th of May.
16 A. I say that he was with Muharem Knushi. That is what I saw. And
17 later I saw a person on the TV screen, and I believe that he was that
18 person. That could be -- that could not be so only if there is a person
19 that strikingly resembles him.
20 Q. What I want to do now is to go through the account you've given to
21 make sure we're absolutely clear about certain key steps in the order of
22 events. So I'm going to put certain propositions to you from what you've
23 already told us and just seek your clarification as to whether what I'm
24 putting to you accurately represents your evidence.
25 First of all --
1 A. All right.
2 Q. -- I think you've confirmed that you had already been stripped
3 naked and beaten, and that you had already been made to eat half of your
4 bank-book, and that your hands had been tied before this jeep arrived; is
5 that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. If I say anything that is not right, please take the opportunity
8 to correct it, because I want everybody in this courtroom to be absolutely
9 certain that we know exactly what it is you are saying.
10 When the jeep arrived, you were naked and tied up; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in the jeep were three men altogether - the driver; a man
13 called Muharem Knushi, who you knew as Giqa; and the man you say was
14 Ramush Haradinaj; is that right?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. Did you know Muharem Knushi?
17 A. I did.
18 Q. Aslan Luluni was not in the jeep when it drew up; is that correct?
19 A. Right
20 Q. You're absolutely sure about that, Witness 38?
21 A. I am.
22 Q. He was, or had been, beating you and walked over to the jeep when
23 it drew up?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. He then went to speak to the men in the jeep; is that correct?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. Neither you nor your father were beaten or ill-treated whilst the
3 jeep was in the vicinity; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. But as soon as the jeep had gone, Aslan Luluni returned and beat
6 you a second time; is that correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. While the jeep was there, you heard some of the men use the
9 word "commander"; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Other than that, is it right that you could not hear anything that
12 they were saying?
13 A. No; that is to say, I couldn't.
14 Q. So the only word that you made out from these conversations was
16 A. Yes.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon. This is a very special expression, of
18 course. There might have been other single words which still wouldn't
19 make sense to the witness, wouldn't they?
20 So did you mean, Witness, that you didn't hear any other word or
21 that you didn't make -- that you were not able to understand the sense of
22 what was spoken?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I couldn't hear
24 because I was away, and I had been beaten quite a lot and slapped about,
25 and in my ears, too. And I couldn't hear what they were saying because
1 they were talking over the radio-set and using codes and coded words. I
2 couldn't make out what was transpiring between them.
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
4 MR. EMMERSON:
5 Q. So the only word that you understood, let's put it that way, was
6 the word "commander" ?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you didn't know for sure which of the two men was being
9 referred to as a commander, Muharem Knushi or the man you say was Ramush
10 Haradinaj? You didn't know which one that word was addressed to; is that
12 A. No. I only heard, that is, the word "commander," and to whom it
13 was addressed of the two, I don't know.
14 Q. So it follows from what you've told us that you never heard any of
15 the soldiers present say, "Commander Ramush Haradinaj, this woman is at
16 your disposal," did you?
17 A. I didn't.
18 Q. And you're quite sure about that, aren't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. We'll come back to that, if we may, a little later.
21 Did you understand Muharem Knushi to have any particular role in
22 Junik amongst the KLA?
23 A. No. I always saw that he was in camouflage uniform and that he
24 was brandishing a machine-gun or a light machine-gun - I'm not quite
25 sure - the small machine-gun, in his hands, and everything went through
1 him. People were calling him, asking him things and so ...
2 Q. Have you ever told an investigator for the Prosecution that
3 Muharem Knushi was the commander of the Junik KLA?
4 A. As far as I know, no.
5 Q. Now, this man, you say, you think was Ramush Haradinaj, you can
6 confirm you had never seen him in your life before?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And I think it's right, isn't it, as well, that you had never
9 heard of Ramush Haradinaj before this day, the 28th of May, 1998?
10 A. I had not heard of his name; that is to say, I had heard of the
11 Haradinajs but not of Ramush Haradinaj, him personally.
12 Q. How long in total was this man in your -- in your vicinity from
13 the time that the jeep arrived until the time that it left?
14 A. You mean how -- for how long was he present there?
15 Q. That's my question, yes.
16 A. For a full 10 minutes, for 10 or 15 minutes or so. He was
17 talking, using the walkie-talkie, and after that he immediately got on the
18 jeep and went off somewhere.
19 Q. And how far away from him were you?
20 A. About 30 metres.
21 Q. Could you see him clearly?
22 A. I could see him clearly from one side and not facing me, because
23 he was sitting there with his colleague, with this Muharem, and was
24 talking to him.
25 Q. So you saw him from 30 metres away, on a side view only?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. And would he have been able to see you, a naked woman tied up with
3 her naked father, 30 metres from where he was?
4 A. I don't know. There was this mill on the right side. We were by
5 the mill. There was some sort of a bush there, a rose bush, I believe.
6 Whether he was able to see me, I'm not sure. I don't know. This mill was
7 in the middle of the forest, and there was just a river below, and there
8 was -- there were woods everywhere around it.
9 Q. So there were bushes and woods between where he was and where you
10 were; is that what you're saying?
11 A. Yes, yes.
12 Q. And you're telling us that because of those bushes and woods, he
13 might not have been able to see you and your naked father 30 metres from
14 where he was; is that what you're telling us?
15 A. Well, it may have been -- it may have been that way. I don't
17 Q. But you're telling us that you, despite those bushes and trees,
18 could clearly see his profile?
19 A. Yes, I could see him from one side quite well.
20 Q. Were you trying to cover yourself?
21 A. I could not cover myself. My hands were tied. There was no way I
22 could do it. The family which was there near me dared not do anything
23 because we had two minor children with us and ...
24 Q. And were you curled up on the floor or were you standing up,
1 A. No, no, I was sitting on the ground, with our hands tied behind
2 our backs.
3 Q. How far away was the fighting at this point?
4 A. I cannot tell you in terms of metres, but from this place where I
5 was to Rastavica, which is the place where the army and the police was,
6 there -- I don't know how many metres or kilometres were between that
7 place and Rastavica, but I'm sure that there were some kilometres between
9 Q. But, Witness 38, you've told us in your testimony that there was
10 fighting going on in the streets of Junik on the very day that you ended
11 up at the mill, haven't you?
12 A. Yes, that's correct. But between Rastavica and Junik, there is a
13 hill that the police and army were targeting, and they were shooting from
14 a location in the woods close to Gacifer. There are houses close to the
15 woods, and that's where they were shooting from. And in any case, there
16 was a fierce exchange of fire, a lot of fighting.
17 Q. So you just told us there are houses close to the woods and that
18 there was shooting from a location in the woods close to Gacifer; is that
20 A. There are a lot of houses there. It's a populated area, a little
21 mahala called Gaciferi. And just overlooking that is a very high hill.
22 And the location where the police and the army were is called Kodra e
23 Rastavices, and the army and the police were close to a settlement.
24 Q. Forgive me for pressing this, but it may be of some importance.
25 Was there shooting in the woods around Gacifer or not; yes or no?
1 A. There was shooting.
2 Q. Where is the --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, it certainly would assist the Chamber
4 to give an exact time frame for that and not just to work on the basis of
5 perhaps understanding, which might not be a shared understanding.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
7 Q. At the time that you were naked outside the mill, was there
8 shooting in the woods around Gacifer?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Where is the mill in relation to Gacifer?
11 A. Below on the road -- down the road to Jasic. But above Gaciferi
12 is a hill, and the mill is between Tofa and Gaciferi.
13 Q. So the mill is, is it not, just a few hundred yards from
14 Gacifer -- a few hundred metres.
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. Were you scared, sitting there, that you may be caught up in the
17 fighting that was so close?
18 A. What do you mean, were we afraid? We thought we would never get
19 out of there alive.
20 Q. Thank you. Could we then go back to this --
21 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, Judge Hoepfel.
22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I'm not sure if this answer reflects what the
23 witness wanted to say.
24 You were not sure if you would get out alive from that situation.
25 Was that because of the fighting in the woods, or was that because of the
1 situation at the spot?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were afraid on two counts:
3 Because we were captives on the one hand; and on the other hand, because
4 of the fighting. In any case, we were almost 100 per cent sure that we
5 wouldn't get out of there alive.
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
7 MR. EMMERSON:
8 Q. Coming back to the man you say was Ramush Haradinaj, you've told
9 us that you'd never seen Ramush Haradinaj before and you've told us that
10 you had never heard his name, Ramush Haradinaj, before. So it must
11 follow, mustn't it, that at the time that jeep drove away, you had no
12 means of knowing who the man was that was sitting in the jeep with Muharem
13 Knushi, at the time the jeep drove away?
14 A. No. But a little later, I had an idea. When I saw him on TV, I
15 realised it was him. But then, back there on the spot, I didn't know his
16 name, I didn't hear his name, nor had I ever seen him before that.
17 Q. And the television broadcast you say you saw was several months
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can we try and work out when that was? I think you said in your
21 testimony in chief it was about three and a half to four months later. Is
22 that your recollection?
23 A. Yes, because in the meantime I had been through extensive
24 treatment to recover from all the torture and all that beating, and it was
25 quite a while before I got out of the hospital. In the hospital, I
1 couldn't watch anything. It was only when I got home that I could watch
2 TV, when I returned to Djakovica, that is, because I couldn't go home.
3 Q. But you can be absolutely sure you saw this television broadcast
4 before you left Kosovo for the last time, around the middle of 1999, can
6 A. Yes, before we left as refugees.
7 MR. EMMERSON: May we go into closed session -- private session
8 for a short moment.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 [Private session]
11 Page 762 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 MR. EMMERSON: By the time --
7 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
11 MR. EMMERSON:
12 Q. I just want to go back. Now, you've mentioned a statement that
13 you've made previously, and I just want to clarify what we're speaking
14 about. I think when you say you came down the hillside after what you say
15 was an attempt to assassinate you at the top of the hill, that you
16 encountered VJ forces, Yugoslav Army forces, on the road; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I think you encountered them in a place called Batusa; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You may not know this, but there was a senior Yugoslav Army
22 general there when you arrived, the Chief of Staff of the 125th Battalion,
23 a man called Colonel Dragan Zivanovic, and he heard you give your account
24 of what had happened to you when you first came into the hands of the
25 Yugoslav Army. Did you know Colonel Zivanovic was there when you first
1 spoke to officers of the army, before you made a video interview, the very
2 first contact you had?
3 A. No, no. No, I did not, nor had I heard the name.
4 Q. And I think after you first spoke to the officers of the Yugoslav
5 Army, you say they then arranged for you to do a video interview to tell
6 them what had happened to you; is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And then after you'd done the video interview, they took you to
9 the MUP and you made a written statement for the MUP at that time, in
10 May -- the beginning of June, I think it would be, 1998; is that right as
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, it follows from what you've told us already that you will not
14 have told the VJ or the MUP anything at all about Ramush Haradinaj being
15 present during this incident, will you?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Because, of course, at that time you hadn't seen him on the
18 television, had you?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 Q. And you've told us that you told not a soul when you did recognise
21 him on the television at any time between three months after this event,
22 so that would take us to about August, and June the next year when you
23 left Kosovo. So for a period of ten months, you kept this information to
25 A. No.
1 Q. I think that no, just for clarification, is a no, you didn't tell
2 anyone; is that right?
3 A. Right. I did not tell anybody.
4 Q. But you did have an interview again with the MUP in November 2002,
5 didn't you?
6 A. Right.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Closed session for just a moment, if I may.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Private session, I take it.
9 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
10 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 MR. EMMERSON:
17 Q. Now, it was an interview with -- at which a police officer that
18 you knew was present, wasn't it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you please give us his name?
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. EMMERSON:
16 Q. You made a statement. You've told us that you weren't very well,
17 I think, at that time; is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Can we please see briefly the statement that you
20 made. It is Defence document ID 1382 in the English version and 1376 in
21 Serbian. And all exhibits marked for identification during this
22 cross-examination, I have agreed, should remain confidential because they
23 all potentially could carry ...
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that means that it's not to be shown on the
1 MR. EMMERSON: Now, it may be of assistance if the usher were to
2 guide the witness to the B/C/S version of the statement whilst the rest of
3 us have it in English.
4 Q. What I'd like you to do is, if you will, to move down the page to
5 the second page and to a paragraph beginning: "At about 1800 hours ..."
6 JUDGE ORIE: First of all, I'd like to give a number to this.
7 Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number D1,
9 marked for identification.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 MR. EMMERSON:
12 Q. If we just -- in fact, whilst we're on the first page, if we just
13 cast our eyes down to the second paragraph, beginning: "A KLA member ..."
14 Can you see a reference in that paragraph to the names of Mahalu Gaciferi
15 and Nimon Tofaj? At the bottom of the screen now.
16 A. Yes, I see it.
17 Q. Those were names that you were able to remember during this
18 interview, despite the fact that you were feeling unwell, aren't they?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And if we can just look to the next paragraph on the following
22 page, beginning: "President of LDK ..." I think it may be -- I think it's
23 at the very top, in fact. We have, unfortunately, a marker over the top
24 of it. We can see -- can you see the name Ruzhdi Sehu, or Sehu Ruzhdi,
25 there and Sinan Sehu? Can you see that? Top of the page, second line
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. And a little further down Sinan Sehu, yes?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. This is part of your narrative and you were explaining there, I
6 think, the names of people who had been present in Junik in the early part
7 of this account; yes?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So you were able to remember their names despite your illness; is
10 that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Yes. And if we just go down a little further on that paragraph, I
13 think you there mention Cazim Bajrami and Bajram Hodza, who interrupted a
14 conversation that was taking place at that stage; yes? Do you see those?
15 Let me guide you. In the paragraph that you can see on the screen at the
16 moment, the top paragraph, four lines up from the bottom --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you have that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. "Cazim Bajrami," yes, and "Bajram Hodza," yes. Do you see those
21 names? The arrow is pointing to it now.
22 A. Yes, I see it. I see it.
23 Q. And so you were able to remember those names, despite your
24 illness, yes?
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You mean after the sentence --
1 THE WITNESS: Here, excuse me, Cazim Bajrami, I see it, but for
2 the life of me, I can't remember anymore who Cazim Bajrami was, although I
3 did mention him. But From what I recollect now, I couldn't repeat those
4 names. I know I was in the house of Qazim Gaciferi, but about Bajrami I
5 don't know.
6 MR. EMMERSON:
7 Q. The point is --
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I interrupt. You are speaking of the sentence
9 after the sentence: "I do not know this man's name," referring to a man
10 who was mentioned before, "but I think that they told me that his
11 village," and so on. Yeah.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And then --
14 MR. EMMERSON: And then the names appear.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- the names. But this doesn't have to do with the
16 sentence before. These are different people --
17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- and she's now wondering why she had the
20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay.
22 MR. EMMERSON:
23 Q. The point, Witness 38, is that you remembered those individuals'
24 names who were not central to your account at that time despite your
25 illness, didn't you?
1 A. Yes, yes, I did remember it, but I truly don't remember now. I
2 can't explain now how I came to mention them and who these people were.
3 It's quite possible that immediately afterwards I remembered, but it's --
4 the whole thing was quite a big shock and a trauma to me. I see that I
5 must have mentioned them. I see that it's written, Cazim Bajrami and
6 Bajram Hodza. Bajram Hodza I know; he's a man from Junik. But about
7 Cazim Bajrami, I really can't say that I know him.
8 Q. If you look at the next paragraph, you remember exactly the very
9 precise time that this incident began at the -- in the lead-up to what
10 happened at the mill, because you refer to seeing Muharem Knushi at
11 6.00 p.m. Can you see that, 1800, you remembered seeing Muharem Knushi?
12 Do you see that? It's in the -- it's the paragraph that you can see on
13 the page --
14 A. Yes, yes. Yeah, I see it. I see him here, 1800 hours.
15 Q. Just read it quickly over to yourself.
16 A. Yes, I see it.
17 Q. Yes, okay. So you remembered his name and the time that you saw
18 him with some precision, despite your illness, didn't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And what do you say, halfway down the paragraph, about his role in
22 A. It's very hard to read because half of this copy is illegible.
23 Q. Can you see the word "radio station," "radio stanice," four lines
24 down in the middle of the paragraph. Do you see that word, "radio
25 station," yes? Where the arrow is pointing now.
1 A. Yes, yes, yes.
2 Q. If we just move along a few words, yes, can you see the word
3 "commandant"? It's on the same line. Yes. Do you have it?
4 A. It's poorly legible, but I think that's it.
5 Q. Our translation reads: "I know that he was a KLA commander in the
6 village of Junik."
7 A. I can't remember saying that he was the commander. It was too
8 soon after the war began, and I didn't know exactly who was soldier and
9 who was commander. And at that time I couldn't really tell and wasn't
10 able to explain it to them. I couldn't have. This is very odd.
11 Q. You signed this witness statement on every page, Witness 38,
12 didn't you?
16 MR. EMMERSON: I suppose we'll need a redaction.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the redaction will be made.
18 Mr. Emmerson, I am aware that asking you to find a suitable
19 moment, next you might say there's no suitable moment in the next one or
20 two minutes, but nevertheless we have to stop.
21 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Therefore, whether this would be as bad as any other
23 moment --
24 MR. EMMERSON: If I might --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. EMMERSON: -- just run on for one minute or two. I can
2 probably complete this --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I need one minute for procedural minutes.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Then one minute is my limit.
5 Q. Witness 38, you say in this statement that it was Muharem Knushi
6 who directed you to go to the mill, and you describe the assault by
7 Aslan Luluni; but you make no mention whatsoever of Ramush Haradinaj or,
8 indeed, of a jeep pulling up, do you?
9 A. While we were in Gaciferi, the jeep -- the jeep of that - what's
10 his name? - Muharem Knushi was not there but it did go towards the mill.
11 He said, You go from this house over there and take the direction of the
13 Q. Witness 38, we need to break now, but let me finish with this. We
14 can all read the statement. You can read the statement. You did not tell
15 the police in 2002 anything at all about knowing that Ramush Haradinaj was
16 there, did you? Did you?
17 A. Yes, that's correct. I didn't mention him.
18 Q. And this was despite the fact that you'd known and seen him every
19 other day on the television since August 1998?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. EMMERSON: I hope that will be a suitable point.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Emmerson.
23 Witness 38, there will be more questions for you. We'll continue
24 tomorrow, in the afternoon, a quarter past 2.00. Take your time, rest
25 well, and I would like to instruct you that you should not speak to anyone
1 about the testimony you have given today or perhaps testimony still to be
2 given tomorrow. Don't speak with anyone. We'd like to see you back
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will not.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I won't.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out
8 of the courtroom.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, is there any update on the matter we -- well,
11 we didn't discuss, but I asked you about before?
12 MR. RE: If Your Honours are referring to the UNMIK --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. RE: Yes. We will -- we have obtained some provider
15 permission in relation -- under Rule 70 in relation to the Skender Kuqi
16 files and we will be disclosing some information tomorrow.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is that all the material that was provided under
18 Rule 70 relevant for this case, or is there still a portion not -- I just
19 want to know whether we have now complete permission or --
20 MR. RE: Not quite.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Not quite.
22 MR. RE: Still working on it.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
24 MR. RE: We're getting there.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'd like to be updated, and I take it that
1 you'll inform the Defence immediately about what is now available, and of
2 course they might be more interested in what is not available. I don't
3 think we've come any further at this very moment. Let's first see what
4 happens after you've given it to the Defence.
5 Mr. Guy-Smith.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. At some point in time, the way that this is
7 proceeding, I believe that a motion is going to need -- is, of necessity,
8 going to have to be filed. I don't know when that's going to be, and I
9 keep on holding back because I'm hoping we can work this out in a much
10 more amicable fashion.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you think the time is there for a motion,
12 we'll see a motion.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It's appreciated that you don't hurry into motions
15 where other solutions are still feasible.
16 Mr. Emmerson.
17 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honours, simply this: I just wanted to
18 mention some estimate of how long I'm likely to be, because this is a
19 document-heavy cross-examination. We're really only a little way into the
20 document part of the analysis. And I think I had indicated from the
21 outset that this was a witness that I was likely to be some time with. I
22 would expect cross-examination of about another hour and a half.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's understood. You announced that you would
24 take a bit more time on this witness.
25 May I, at the same time, ask your attention for the following:
1 Sometimes you refer to matters that certainly are not yet part of the
2 testimony of the witness, such as the 28th of May, where the witness said
3 the 6th or the 7th of May, mid-May, the 6th or the 7th. And I think it's
4 not the only time. For example, the video interview, the witness had not
5 yet confirmed that there had been ever a video interview. You mentioned
6 it, she -- in her answer she didn't confirm it, and then you continued on
7 the video interview. I'd like -- it's not dramatic, but I'd very much
8 like to avoid whatever possible confusion, and while quoting matters that
9 are not yet part of the testimony of the witness, there is at least a risk
10 and these are examples that might not be very dangerous ones, but at least
11 there's a risk of confusion which I'd very much like to avoid.
12 MR. EMMERSON: I'll study the transcript, and if there are
13 important matters that occur to me that I didn't get a clear enough answer
14 to, I will put them in straight first thing in the morning. I thought she
15 had answered yes in relation to the video interview. If I'm wrong about
16 that, then I'll --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I had the answer -- the videolink was mentioned
18 in a rather long phrase in which a lot of things appeared, among others
19 the video interview, and then of course even if you get a kind of an
20 information, you don't know what is confirmed and what is not confirmed.
21 MR. EMMERSON: I'll break the question down.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Then we'll adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, in the same
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Friday, the 9th day of
2 March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.