1 Monday, 12 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Before we invite the Prosecution to continue the examination of
11 Witness 58, I'd like to briefly and quickly deal with a few matters.
12 First, order of witnesses. I do understand that -- let me just --
13 not knowing whether matters will change.
14 The witness at present testifying is Witness 58. The next witness
15 would be Witness 19, if I understood well, Mr. Re. Is that 19 from the
16 list ...
17 No, no, no, I'm making a mistake. The next one would be witness
18 9, and the witness after that would be, then, Witness 19. Is that ...
19 And then if there would remain any time, although the Prosecution
20 is not in a position to cross-examine the witness, that they reluctantly
21 would accept that the Chamber, in order to avoid whatever gap, to have
22 Witness 8 as the witness to testify after that. Is that well understood?
23 MR. RE: I apologise, Your Honour. Witness 19 would be the
24 witness' pseudonym, who would be followed by witness number 8 -- I'm
25 sorry. Sorry, the confusion is between the order -- the witness number on
1 the list and the witness pseudonym in relation to the pre-trial protective
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm talking now about the tentative order of
4 testimony, which -- the next witness would be Witness number 64, tentative
5 order of testimony, as filed, number 9.
6 MR. RE: That's right.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And then after that, we'd have sequence number --
8 yes, I'm -- sequence number 29.
9 MR. RE: Correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Which -- is that -- and that's witness with pseudonym
11 19 and Witness number 88. Three numbers for one witness.
12 MR. RE: The next one was Witness number 27 in order of testimony,
13 who is Witness 87 and has the pseudonym Witness 4.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I have a different first name for that witness, 27.
15 First name starts with an A; whereas 29, first name starts with an R.
16 MR. RE: That's correct.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It would be 27?
18 MR. RE: That was in the proposed order of testimony.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but that's pseudonym 4?
20 MR. RE: Correct.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness number 87. That's different from what I had
22 on my list, and I see the Defence being rather confused as well. You sort
23 that out during -- that witness, you sort it out during the next break, so
24 that all parties have a similar witness on their mind.
25 And then finally, of course, we have the issue with the witness
1 who was in the tentative order of witnesses number 8, where there seems to
2 be disclosure issues, where the Defence would be reluctant even to see --
3 to hear him testifying this week, but at least not -- would be in a
4 position to cross-examine.
5 MR. EMMERSON: We were able to make some progress by agreement on
6 the handling of that witness, and subject, of course, to the Trial
7 Chamber's views, the proposal is that he would not be called in chief
8 before Thursday but that the Defence would then be in a position, if the
9 evidence-in-chief completed within Thursday, to move directly to
11 JUDGE ORIE: So that would mean that --
12 MR. EMMERSON: We could hear the witness from Thursday --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And even -- well, the cross-examination could
14 take place on either later Thursday or Friday. Let me just see.
15 MR. EMMERSON: And I think Mr. Re --
16 JUDGE ORIE: He's been scheduled in chief for two hours, so that
17 would mean the cross-examination could even start on Thursday.
18 MR. EMMERSON: It's quite possible. And I think Mr. Re may have
19 other crime base witnesses potentially lined up as well.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And then you tried to agree on whether we're
21 talking about witness with pseudonym 4 or 19, that is, the order of
22 testimony number 27 or 29, and Witness number 87 or 88, it's all which one
23 we could expect.
24 MR. RE: Yes. 29 was first, followed by 27. I indicated --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Followed by 27, then.
1 MR. RE: Yes. I am referring -- when I talk about these numbers,
2 I'm referring to the list we filed on the 2nd of March of this year --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. RE: -- which I thought was the definitive consolidated list.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear.
6 MR. RE: Might I also raise at this point, and I did speak to
7 my -- at least one Defence lawyer on the weekend and sent a letter to the
8 others in this -- or an e-mail in these terms: At the moment, in terms of
9 witness preparation and catching up and ensuring we have the smoothest
10 flow, the proceedings may benefit if we didn't sit on Friday this week,
11 which would allow the Prosecution to get all the crime base witnesses
12 together and then do the others in perhaps a -- "logical" is probably the
13 wrong word, but --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Re, I do understand, and, of course,
15 finally you make your -- you make your assessments of what is most
16 efficient. At the same time, Friday is four hours in court available to
17 the Prosecution to present its case. I mean, dates not sitting are still
18 part of time available for the Prosecution to present its case. It's four
19 hours from 125, unless there are very specific reasons. But usually
20 non-sitting means time available to present evidence which is not used.
21 MR. RE: I understand that. But Your Honours saw last week there
22 were some difficulties which I foreshadowed earlier about having all the
23 witnesses here and in an order in which they were coming. Your Honour
24 realises that -- the Bench realises that three witnesses were scheduled
25 for last week and this week just didn't arrive. The difficulty that's
1 presented us with is having to bring other witnesses forward before we
2 were in the best position, and the Defence of course, to
3 examination-in-chief and cross-examine.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Let's first see what we achieve this week, and then
5 let's see how far we come until Friday, and then we'll further discuss
6 whether it's -- your suggestion will be followed or whether we'll not take
7 into account that Friday. Yes.
8 Then anything else as far as the order of witnesses is concerned?
9 If not, there is a request for a subpoena that was filed on the 9th of
10 March; the witnesses, it's suggested, to appear between the 19th and 23rd
11 of March. I understand the subpoena to say, You, Witness, you should be
12 here at that and that time. And how much time the testimony takes is
13 another matter. And not -- of course, you can indicate that it will take
14 several days or more than one day or -- but are you able to -- do you
15 think that it's manageable to get a witness here on the 19th? Because if
16 you say he has to be here between the 19th and the 23rd of March, that
17 means that it must be feasible to get him here on the 19th.
18 MR. RE: The Prosecution is in a position to facilitate as best as
19 it can someone coming within a week. However, we're asking the Trial
20 Chamber to -- and, of course, we wouldn't expect you to do otherwise, but
21 to take a practical approach here in terms of issuing of subpoenas,
22 because there's obviously a time delay, and we have no control over how
23 subpoenas are issued and when a person is actually brought to The Hague.
24 So in that respect, what we're -- what we're more after is a range of
25 dates when the person comes to the court and then is told he'll testify --
1 JUDGE ORIE: But when do you expect him to arrive? The 22nd,
2 would that be good enough?
3 MR. RE: Um.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then he failed to be here on the 19th, and he's
5 therefore not obeying to the subpoena, isn't it?
6 MR. RE: The 22nd, the 23rd, we have the British military expert
7 scheduled to testify. That's a date we can't -- we can't move that
9 JUDGE ORIE: I want you to think about what you expect from a
10 witness. If I say to a witness, you're asked to appear between the 19th
11 and the 23rd of March, would that mean that could he come in on the 22nd
12 and say, Here I am, and has he then obeyed to the order or not, or -- I
13 mean, why not find the first day on which you both want him to be here and
14 consider it possible that he is here, reasonably possible, and then say,
15 That's when you have to be here, and then we'll hear your testimony in
16 that -- on that day and/or the days immediately after that.
17 MR. RE: I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood what Your Honour was
18 saying. Now I recall, we did say between those dates.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. RE: What we mean is to appear on the first date, to appear in
21 The Hague before the Tribunal on the first date --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. RE: -- and to testify either on that date or the dates within
24 that range.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. RE: It being, in a sense, a first-return date to ensure the
2 witness is here, and then saying, depending on some exigencies, but other
3 witnesses are here and testifying.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. RE: We want you to testify within that range of dates.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So you want him to be subpoenaed to arrive on
7 the 19th, to be in court on the 19th, and then to stay as long as he's
8 needed on the dates after that.
9 MR. RE: That's right.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, that's clear. Yes. Do you think it's
11 feasible - today it's the 12th - 19th, any serious problem?
12 MR. RE: Not from the Prosecution's perspective.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No, but if the witness has a problem, the Prosecution
14 has a problem as well because the witness is not here.
15 MR. RE: The problem is the witness might come voluntarily --
16 JUDGE ORIE: If you say I'm confident that this witness could be
17 here on 19th, in view of all practical problems, travel documents,
18 arrangements, et cetera, then we might consider to issue. And if you say,
19 Well, could be that there's a chance of 60 per cent that he'll not be able
20 to be here on the 19th but on the 20th, then rather subpoena him for the
21 20th. That's the kind of assessment I'm seeking.
22 MR. RE: I can never give any sort of guarantee that --
23 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not asking for a guarantee. I'm asking about an
24 assessment. I mean, if you say, it would be quite extraordinary if we did
25 not manage to get this and this and this on the 19th, it would be
1 really -- well, if not really exceptional, then at least unusual that we
2 would not be able to manage that within one week, then no problem. If you
3 say, Well, there's a 50 per cent chance that he'll make it, then we have
4 to think about whether this is a wise thing to do or whether to take more
6 MR. RE: I have put all the information before the Court that I
7 possibly can about this witness. We can facilitate the issuing of travel
8 documents, if necessary, before then, and we can facilitate the transfer
9 of those documents to the Serbian authorities to ensure that they're --
10 that they're issued in time.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. RE: I just can't take it any further.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No. Of course, what we'd like to hear is if you say
14 90 per cent chance that we'll make it or that the witness will make it,
15 then it's different from a 30 per cent chance. The Chamber is not very
16 much inclined to issue subpoenas on a 30 per cent chance; whereas the
17 Chamber might be well inclined to say, Well, if there's a -- well, most
18 likely he'll make it, then, of course, you could consider to issue a
19 subpoena for that day.
20 So what I'd like to hear from you, on the basis of your
21 experience, if you say, Well, most likely he'll be able to do it, or
22 serious doubts as to whether ...
23 MR. RE: I can't take it beyond saying --
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear. I don't get an answer.
25 MR. RE: Your Honour, I can't give you an answer. I cannot give
1 you a percentage of whether he will come or not. I can say we will
2 facilitate it and do everything we possibly can, but --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not blaming you, but -- okay, you say I can't
4 answer your questions.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the speakers please note the overlap for
6 the interpreters.
7 MR. RE: Pretty high chance of it if Your Honours were to issue it
8 today. I can't -- beyond that, I can't give you a percentage. We can do
9 everything we can humanly do to get him here next week, on the Monday.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There is not a matter pending? That is, the
11 Defence has not taken a position, I think, in relation to the subpoena
12 requested for -- is there any objection requested or would you need more
13 time to --
14 MR. EMMERSON: There is no opposition to a subpoena application as
15 far as Mr. Haradinaj is concerned.
16 JUDGE ORIE: And I see two times nodding no; so therefore, it's
17 still possible, Mr. Re, to consider issuing a subpoena today. Of course,
18 the Defence not asking for more time. We'll consider the matter.
19 Yes. Last issue: The 2nd of March notification of clarification
20 of paragraph 89 of the indictment and request for leave to add a
22 The Chamber is aware that the Defence has another two days to
23 respond. Do you at all intend to reply?
24 MR. EMMERSON: No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I see one time -- also nodding no?
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: No.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, you joined that, so that is clear, so the
3 therefore Chamber will not wait for a reply before considering the
5 These were the procedural matters at this moment.
6 Mr. Re, are you ready to continue the examination-in-chief of
7 Witness 58?
8 MR. RE: I am.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Are the protective measures in place, Madam
10 Registrar; that is, face distortion and pseudonym?
11 Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
13 What was not on my list is that there was another request, which
14 is very recent, for protective measures. What -- the Chamber would not
15 grant two weeks for the Defence to respond, but when do you think you
16 could respond?
17 MR. EMMERSON: We can respond orally today. The application is
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's on behalf of all three?
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Are we speaking with regard to the most recent
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, that application is opposed.
25 MR. HARVEY: By all three.
1 JUDGE ORIE: By all three. That's clear. Then we'll take time
2 later this afternoon to look at the matter.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour. Does the Chamber at any
4 point wish to have some oral presentation with regard to that opposition
5 or ...
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But since we now invite the witness to come in,
7 we'll do that at another moment.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Fine.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/58 [Resumed]
11 [Witness answered through interpreters]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness 58. I'd like to remind you
13 that you are still bound --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- by the solemn declaration you gave at the
16 beginning of your testimony last week, Friday. Mr. Re will now continue
17 his examination.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Mr. Re, please proceed.
21 Examination by Mr. Re: [Continued]
22 Q. Good afternoon, Witness 58.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. If you remember back to Friday, I'd asked you a lot of questions
25 about what happened in May, late May, 1998, when you and your family went
1 to the mill?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And we got to the point where you were telling the Court about a
4 person called Aslan who was mistreating members of your family?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Before I go further on that, I want you to tell the Court, tell
7 the Judges, what was the weather like when all that was happening?
8 A. It was raining and cold.
9 Q. Can you describe the type of rain?
10 A. Can you repeat the question, please?
11 Q. Describe the rain. Was it light rain, heavy rain, spotted rain?
12 Was it raining all the time, a little bit of the time? Clouds? What was
14 A. It was raining, and it was cold.
15 Q. On Friday, I was asking you about this person Aslan that you saw
16 at the mill.
17 A. Yes. Yes, he came --
18 Q. Stop, stop. Did you know Aslan before?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How did you know him before?
21 A. I knew him from before because he lived before you enter
22 Gregovisht, I knew him.
23 Q. Do you know whether he has another name?
24 A. Aslan Luluni was his name.
25 Q. Was he in the KLA?
1 A. Yes, he was.
2 Q. When you saw him on that day at the mill, was he armed?
3 A. Yes. Yes, he was. He was.
4 Q. What weapon --
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, if I might. I would ask Mr. Re not to
6 lead the witness.
7 MR. RE: I'm not sure how that's -- how asking whether someone is
8 armed is actually leading a witness. There are many answers to that. You
9 could say Yes, No, Don't know.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well. I'll leave it for the moment, but I
11 think Mr. Re understands the import of my submission.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll leave it for the time being.
13 Mr. Re.
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask the counsel to turn
15 off the mic after finishing because there's a lot of noise.
16 MR. RE:
17 Q. I asked you a moment ago what weapon he had.
18 A. They had all sorts of weapons, large, small. I didn't pay a lot
19 of attention. I had a lot on my mind, the care of my kids and everything.
20 They were crying; I was crying; my second sister-in-law was crying; all of
21 us were crying. So I don't remember very well. I can't tell you
23 Q. What did he do to your sister-in-law?
24 A. They encircled us in a meadow before the mill, and he said, We
25 have to search you to see whether you have some arms or something. We
1 said, We don't have anything you might think of.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, may I simply ask this: When questions
4 like that last one are put, Mr. Re make it clear, through the appropriate
5 form of words, which sister-in-law he is asking about.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, did your question cover either of them or
7 were you specifically -- because we have -- we have Witness 38 and a
8 second sister-in-law.
9 MR. RE:
10 Q. No names. Just refer to either the sister-in-law who's 38 or the
11 second sister-in-law. Which sister-in-law were you referring to just
13 A. I'm -- I was talking of the two of them, for the second and -- for
14 the elder and for the younger.
15 Q. Was their father there?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. What, if anything, happened to him?
18 A. He was trying to explain, to talk with them. They were shouting
19 at him.
20 Q. Who is the "they" that were shouting at them?
21 A. They were many. I heard only Aslan shouting. I think I told you
22 once, there were many of them, but I didn't recognise all of them,
23 because, as I said, I was taking care of my children and I was very
24 scared, myself.
25 Q. You said that Aslan had searched your second sister-in-law's bag.
1 Did Aslan do anything to the second sister-in-law's father?
2 A. Yes, yes.
3 Q. What did he do?
4 A. He wanted to rape my second sister-in-law. I didn't let him. I
5 cried. He searched her bag and then picked up the things. And I took my
6 kids and the wife of my father-in-law and my sister-in-law and we went a
7 little further. And I can't remember very well because I was scared.
8 Q. You said he wanted to rape your second sister-in-law. What --
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: The question that was propounded to the witness
12 was not answered. I understand that this is information that Mr. Re
13 wishes to elicit, and I certainly have no objection to him proceeding to
14 elicit information in whatever way he chooses to see fit. However, for
15 purposes of a record that needs review, when a question is asked and an
16 answer given is not to the question asked, it causes a great deal of
17 confusion. And I don't want to be jumping up and saying that the answer
18 is non-responsive, but I would appreciate it if, when such things happen,
19 Mr. Re guide his witness in an appropriate fashion so that we don't have
20 this occur.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any rule that if a witness is not very
22 responsive to the question, that if the party questioning the witness
23 decides, rather, to proceed than to further assist on receiving an answer,
24 is there any rule, to your knowledge, which obliges the party to do so?
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I know of no rule which would oblige the party
1 necessarily to do so; however, for the purposes of having an orderly
2 transcript, one from which you, as a Chamber, can reflect and one from
3 which we, as advocates, can argue, I think, would be of some benefit.
4 Because if I were, at this point, with regard to this particular issue,
5 discuss this evidence as it relates to the father-in-law, then you, as a
6 Chamber, could rightfully criticise me with regard to the fact that there
7 was no evidence in that regard.
8 So what I'm trying to do is establish a basis upon which we have
9 some kind of order. That's all I'm looking for, Your Honour, order.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll consider to what extent it's just in the
11 discretion of the examining party to refrain from further insisting on
12 getting an answer on the specific question.
13 Now, I also want to respond to an earlier matter. You said that
14 you would not persist, you said, on whether a question to whether a
15 certain person was armed was leading. If a witness -- Friday - and I
16 refer you to page 883, line 17 - when talking about the KLA members said
17 that they were armed, then I really have difficulties in understanding to
18 what extent the witness could be seduced by a question of this leading
19 character to introduce something the witness would not have introduced
20 otherwise. That's really totally not understandable to me.
21 Mr. Guy-Smith, you did not insist on the matter, so there's no
22 ruling, but I just want to explain to you that I had difficulties in
23 understanding the objection that you finally did not make.
24 Mr. Re, at this moment the Chamber will not insist you on -- will
25 not insist on you trying to get an answer to the question. We'll consider
1 how important it is and we'll consider your duties in this respect.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. You said a moment ago he wanted to rape your second sister-in-law.
5 What did he do?
6 A. Are you asking me about the elder or the younger? Just make it
7 clear, please.
8 Q. The second sister-in-law, the one you referred to earlier, not
9 Witness 38.
10 A. Yes. I told you the first day as well. I didn't allow him to
11 rape her, because he attempted to rape her but I didn't let him, so he
12 didn't rape her.
13 Q. What did he do? What did you see him do?
14 A. I didn't see him any -- I didn't see anything else. I just took
15 my kids. They didn't do anything to her after that.
16 Q. You said he attempted to rape her. Why do you say that he
17 attempted to rape her? What did you see that makes you say that?
18 A. I didn't say they raped her. They attempted to rape her, but I
19 didn't let him do that. I didn't say they raped; I just simply said they
20 attempted to rape her.
21 Q. What did he do to her that made you think that he was trying to
22 rape her?
23 A. I didn't let him -- she put on her clothes and I took her with me,
24 and I was crying and shouting, and I didn't let him. She put on her
25 clothes. And you should make it clear to all that they didn't rape her;
1 they just tried to rape her. I want to tell here the truth. I want to
2 tell you what really happened.
3 Q. All right. We understand that you just want to confine yourself
4 to what you saw. You said, "She put her clothes on ..."
5 A. Yes, this is what I said.
6 Q. Tell the Court about her clothes. You said she put them on. Were
7 they off?
8 A. Can you repeat it? I am not clear.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Re, I can interrupt.
10 You told that your sister-in-law put her clothes on. Could you
11 tell us, she had taken the clothes off or someone else?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] She put on the clothes herself.
13 They wanted to rape her but I didn't let them.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. It might be not easy for you to
15 talk about it, because you might have, from what I understand, have found
16 it an embarrassing situation. But this Chamber would like to hear some
17 of -- some details. If you say, My sister put her clothes on, and you
18 wanted to prevent her to be raped, could you tell us, she was undressed --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, they didn't rape her. She
20 was dressed. They wanted to undress her, but I didn't allow them. So I
21 wanted to know that I didn't say they took her clothes off. Wanted to,
22 but didn't do it, and they didn't do anything else to her. I'm telling
23 you things which are correct, not things which didn't happen.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, did they touch her in an attempt to take her
25 clothes off or did they say to her that she had to take her clothes off?
1 Could you give us a bit more detail on what exactly happened?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said so, but I didn't let her
3 take off her clothes and she didn't take off her clothes. They only
4 emptied her bag, to search it, but nothing else. They didn't do anything
5 else to my second sister-in-law. I am saying to you what really happened
6 but nothing else. And then I went a little further away with my kids and
7 my sister-in-law and we stayed there for a while.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me stop you for a second. You said that
9 is -- you said, "They didn't do anything else to my second sister-in-law."
10 Now I'd like to move to the sister-in-law --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, they didn't.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- Witness 38. Did they -- was she all the time
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said the same thing the first
15 time. I don't know what she said, but I know only what I am saying to
16 you. I came here to say what I know.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps a very simple question: Did you
18 at any moment at the mill see your sister-in-law number 38 at any moment
19 undressed, whether voluntarily or whether forced or whether --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't pay much attention. I left
21 for 10 or 15 minutes. This is all I wanted to tell you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you: Would you feel ashamed if she
23 would have been undressed? Would you find that embarrassing, even to tell
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I am telling you the truth. I
1 don't know what she has said. I told you what I saw. I cannot say things
2 which I didn't see. After staying there for a while, as I said, we took
3 to the mountains, through the bushes, through the hedges, and then I don't
4 know other things. I can't tell you things which I don't know, which
5 didn't happen. What she told you, I don't know, but I am telling you what
6 I remember. What I don't remember, I am not saying.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That's the right thing to do.
8 Mr. Re, you may proceed.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if that's correct or
10 not, but I'm telling you what I know.
11 MR. RE:
12 Q. In that group of people, was anyone tied up?
13 A. I wasn't paying attention. I wasn't paying attention. As I said,
14 I was moving along a road with bushes and hedges. I was looking after my
15 children, who were hungry, so I wasn't paying attention.
16 Q. I asked you a little while ago what they did to your
17 sister-in-law's father and you said they attempted to rape your second
18 sister-in-law. Now, I want you to think only about the father. What did
19 they do to the father?
20 A. They were shouting at him. They were maltreating those two. And
21 as I said, I wasn't paying attention, really. They were maltreating them.
22 There were a lot of people and I don't remember everything exactly. I was
23 ill --
24 Q. All right. Just try and focus on -- concentrate on the little
25 thing I'm asking you, all right?
1 A. Go on.
2 Q. You said they were maltreating the two of them. Now, tell the
3 Judges about the way they maltreated the father. What did they do to him?
4 A. Well, I really don't know how to describe it. I forgot part of it
5 and time has gone by. They were shouting at him. Then they took us to a
6 place. We stayed there in the mountains.
7 Q. All right. Okay. Stop. The father was all I'm interested in,
8 okay? Nothing more, okay? Good-o.
9 Now, I'm going to ask you about how long you stayed around the
10 mill for. How long were you there for?
11 A. Not very long. I don't remember exactly, but it wasn't for too
12 long. Maybe until the 6th or 7th, or 6 or 7. I don't remember. As I
13 said, I haven't done much school.
14 Q. Okay. When you said -- I'm just interested in the amount of time
15 you spent there. Was it minutes, hours, days? How long did you stay
16 around the mill for?
17 A. Not very long. From 8.00 in the morning and it was then 4.00 or
18 5.00 or 7.00 or 8.00 when we set off towards the Jasiq mountain. This is
19 what I know. We didn't stay long at the mill.
20 Q. Was it your family members you told us about on Friday who went
21 with you towards the Jasiq mountain?
22 A. There were some Roma, a certain Jusuf, and another with his wife;
23 then the wife of my father-in-law and nobody else.
24 Q. What about your two sisters-in-law and the children?
25 A. And the children and my sister-in-law, we were all together.
1 Q. Why did you go towards the Jasiq mountains?
2 A. Well, we were scared. We thought we would find some peace there.
3 We spent the night there out in the cold, in the rain, hungry, without any
4 food. We spent the night there, then the next day, we took to the road.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, your question was, and I invite the witness
6 also to listen carefully, your question was: "What about your two
7 sisters-in-law and the children?" And then, Witness 58, in your response,
8 you said: "And the children and my sister-in-law," not sisters-in-law.
9 Were they both there when you went towards Jasiq mountains, or was just
10 one of them there?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both of them were. We were all
12 together. Both of them were with us.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. You said you went there because you were scared. What were you
16 scared of?
17 A. I was scared because my children were crying. I wasn't feeling
18 very well at that time. We were all feeling that way. And then we spent
19 the night there at Jasiq mountain, and we left the next day.
20 Q. What was causing you the fear?
21 A. There were a lot of KLA. We were scared. We were hungry. We
22 didn't have any bread or water. Nothing at all.
23 Q. Were you afraid of the KLA?
24 A. Yes, by God I was.
25 Q. Why?
4 Q. What was there for you to be scared of?
5 A. There were a lot of KLA and I was scared. We remained there in
6 the mountains, and as I said, we were hungry, we didn't have any food. I
7 was scared; my children were scared; all of us were scared, because there
8 were a lot of them.
9 Q. You said you spent the night at Jasiq mountain and left the next
10 day. Where did you go to, and who were you with?
11 A. I left with my entire family, my husband's family, my
12 father-in-law, and then we in Gjocaj, near a shop or house, I don't know
13 what it was. There, there were many of them. They wanted to fire. And a
14 certain Gani from Istog didn't let them fire.
15 Q. I want you to tell the Court in more detail about what happened
16 then, okay? But just in a moment. Did this thing, when they wanted to
17 fire, did that happen the day after you spent the night at Jasiq mountain?
18 Just yes or no.
19 A. Yes, it was after the Jasiq mountain, after we left Jasiq
21 Q. Was it the next day or a different day?
22 A. No, it was the following day, the morning when we left the
23 mountain. I don't know at what time exactly we left the Jasiq mountain.
24 Q. So the incident where they tried to fire at you, did that happen,
25 as far as you can remember, in the morning?
1 A. At Jasiq? Are you referring to Jasiq or Gjocaj?
2 Q. At Gjocaj.
3 A. Yes. They wanted to fire there, that Gani that I mentioned, he
4 was from Istog, and he told them, Don't you dare fire, but then they said,
5 Yes, we should fire, we should kill them at all.
6 Q. Step by step, one thing at a time, and then everyone will know
7 what you're talking about; all right? Firstly, was it in the morning,
8 the afternoon, or the night, as best as you can remember?
9 A. No, no, it was in the morning, early in the morning, 6.00, 7.00,
10 or 8.00 in the morning.
11 Q. Where did you go to?
12 A. We went to the mountains. Gani didn't let them. We could hardly
13 walk, and we reached Batusha.
14 Q. How long did it take you, doing your best to remember, to get from
15 the mountain to where this happened?
16 A. Well, I don't know whether it was 7.00 or 8.00, and then it took
17 us quite -- I don't know what time it was exactly. Maybe it was 5.00 or
18 2.00. I really don't know.
19 Q. How did you get from Jasiq mountain to Gjocaj? Did you walk,
20 drive? How did you get there?
21 A. No, no, we went on foot. We went on foot to Batusha. We didn't
22 have any cars. We were on foot, on mountain paths.
23 Q. Where was it that they wanted to fire on you? I want you to
24 describe the area you went to.
25 A. You're referring to Gjocaj? It was in Gjocaj where they wanted to
1 fire. This is what I said earlier. This Gani from Istog didn't let them
2 fire. He told them, Don't you dare, and they said, Well, these people
3 should be killed, but then he told them, No, don't shoot, and made them
4 move away.
5 Q. Let's go back to Gjocaj and what happened there. Tell the Court
6 about what the place looked like. Were there trees? Were there houses?
7 Was it in the mountains? Was it near a river? Whatever. Just tell the
8 Court what the area was, what sort of landscape it was.
9 A. You should know that I don't know exactly what it was, whether it
10 was a shop or a house, but I can tell you that there were a lot of them.
11 I don't know the exact number. As I said, this Gani didn't allow them to
12 fire, and we managed to reach Batusha.
13 Q. Don't talk about Gani. I just want you to tell the Court where it
14 was. You said there might be a shop or a house; okay?
15 A. Yes. It is Gani from Istog.
16 Q. Was it outside or inside that this attempted shooting happened?
17 A. Are you referring to Gjocaj or somewhere else or to the house?
18 Q. I'm talking about Gjocaj. All I'm talking about at the moment is
19 Gjocaj; okay? Nothing else.
20 A. Okay. So it's all about Gjocaj. They were outside, they weren't
21 inside. They were all outside.
22 Q. Who was there?
23 A. There were a lot. I don't know them. I wasn't looking at them.
24 I encircled my own children and I wasn't watching them, looking at them,
25 at all.
1 Q. A lot of who? Were they civilians or soldiers?
2 A. They were soldiers. They were all KLA. I don't know them, but
3 they were a lot. So this person from Istog didn't allow them to fire and
4 he said to them, Don't you dare imprison them or do anything to them.
5 Q. Tell the Court about the -- what the area looked like, what the
6 land or the earth looked like, where you were. Were there trees,
7 mountains, rivers, fences, stones? What did the area look like? Just
8 describe it for the Court.
9 A. It was kind of a road. I wasn't paying attention whether there
10 were apple trees or other trees around. But it was a road that takes you
11 to Batusha. There were trees, there was a shop, there was a house, but I
12 wasn't paying attention whether there were trees around. All I wanted to
13 do is make this road and leave.
14 Q. You've told us a few times about the person from Istog stopping
15 the KLA from shooting. I want you to tell the Court, to describe, where
16 you were and where the KLA were. What happened?
17 Firstly, how far away were the KLA soldiers from you?
18 A. Well, three or five steps away. They weren't very far.
19 Q. What did they do?
20 A. They wanted to fire, so this person from Istog told them, Don't
21 shoot --
22 Q. Okay. They wanted to fire. What made you think they wanted to
23 fire? What were they doing that gave you the -- that told you they wanted
24 to fire?
25 A. They directed their weapons up. This is how it was.
1 Q. Who were you there with?
2 A. We wanted to go to Batusha, so all of us were there, my
3 sisters-in-law, my father-in-law --
4 Q. What I'm after is who were the --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
6 MR. EMMERSON: I think there's an indication from behind that
7 there may be a translation problem. May I make inquiries to see what it
8 is and, if it's a significant one, to correct it in due course?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so, but you're instructed not to
10 clarify issues in the presence of the witness with her earphones off,
11 because it might have a suggestive effect which is, of course, not --
12 No, no, no, the witness can -- I don't know what language
13 Mr. Haradinaj is speaking at this moment, but --
14 MR. EMMERSON: He's speaking in the English that he's capable to
16 JUDGE ORIE: You can consult with him. There's no problem.
17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.
19 MR. RE:
20 Q. You said: "All of us were there, my sisters-in-law, my
21 father-in-law," you. Who else?
22 A. There were some people from Junik, a Jusufa and Mihani, but they
23 stopped them, they told them, You can stay here but they cannot. So they
24 stopped there and we proceeded.
25 Q. Who did the KLA try to -- or look like they were going to shoot?
1 A. Us, the entire family that was with the elderly sister-in-law.
2 Q. When they had --
3 A. It was only our family.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour, I interpose a slight
5 objection at this point in time.
6 Mr. Re has repeatedly talked about "the KLA" doing something, like
7 shooting or attempting to do other things. There are individuals who are
8 involved in this case. Those individuals have not been identified. I
9 think for purposes of the trial proceedings, as well as for purposes of
10 clarification, the use of this particular term, and I understand that
11 there's quite an assumption being made here, but I think we need a bit
12 more identification with regard to the individuals who were involved so
13 that the Chamber can make a determination of whether or not the
14 characterisation made by Mr. Re is, in fact, ultimately accurate when
15 reviewing the entirety of the evidence. And I understand the term has
16 been used for quite some period of time, but I think that it would be
17 important for the Chamber to have an understanding of the identities of
18 the individuals, or some other form of an understanding of who the
19 individuals were who she was involved with at this point in time so that
20 an independent determination can be made as to whether or not, in fact,
21 this was KLA activity, which is actually something which is somewhat
22 central to this case.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Mr. Re, until now, the witness has explained on several occasions
25 people she didn't know but she identified for the reasons stated by her as
1 KLA or KLA members. If we enter ever into a new -- a new context or a new
2 group, would you please verify whether the basis on which the witness is
3 talking about KLA is the same as she did before, or whether there's -- or
4 whether she happened to know the persons involved. Yes.
5 By the way, Mr. Guy-Smith, approximately I think you used
6 something like 18 or 20 lines. I think the same could have been said in
8 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 MR. RE:
11 Q. Just to help the Judges, you said they were all KLA. How do you
12 know they were KLA?
13 A. You could recognise them because they spoke Albanian and they had
14 the KLA insignia. There were no Serbs there. There was not a single Serb
15 left; they had all left.
16 Q. Let's go back to what they did to you. You said they had weapons
17 and your family was there. What did they say or do? Where were you and
18 your family and where were they? Just describe those things.
19 A. You are talking about my own family or my husband's family? I
20 think you're talking about my husband's family. We were all together. I
21 was with my husband's family. There was this cousin of my sister-in-law
22 and nobody else. I recounted the persons who were with us in the group.
23 Nobody else was there. I told you what I know. I cannot tell you what I
24 don't. What I remember.
25 Q. Just tell us what happened. You said they had weapons. Your
1 family members were there, the KLA were there. What did they do?
2 A. They were sitting around there. I don't know what they were
3 doing. What can I tell you? They came up to us another time, saying what
4 to do, You should do this, you should do that, and then I don't know.
5 Then we left in the direction of Batusha.
6 Q. Witness, you said a little earlier that you thought they were
7 trying to shoot you. I want you to tell the Court about that. What did
8 they do? Just concentrate on that area. Tell the Court what happened.
9 What was it they did that made you think they were trying to shoot you?
10 A. Yes, they wanted to shoot us. They said, Who is the family of my
11 elder sister-in-law, we want to kill them, they said. And then this guy
12 from Istog, he said, No, you shouldn't shoot them, and they didn't. And
13 then we left the place. This is how it was.
14 Q. What were they doing with their weapons when they wanted to shoot
16 A. What were they doing? I don't know what they were doing. They
17 threatened us and then I explained to you that this man from Istog saved
18 us. And then through the mountain route, we went to Batush and they
19 didn't fire at us. Then the army in Batush took us to Gjakov, and then
20 nobody else did anything to us, because nobody allowed them.
21 THE INTERPRETER: She's repeating the same sentence twice, three
23 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, let me try to clarify the issue. You
24 told us that they said that they wanted to shoot you. Was it just by
25 words or did they do anything more?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't do anything because that
2 guy didn't allow them. They wanted to shoot at us but they did not. This
3 person said, No, no, you should not kill them, and then they left us alone
4 and we left in the direction of Batush.
5 JUDGE ORIE: May I then take it that they did not point their
6 weapons at you when they were stopped.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't do anything to us and we
8 left in the direction of Batush mountain. They left us alone. We walked
9 through the mountain and then arrived in Batush. This is all I remember,
10 what I'm telling you now.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, please proceed.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. Judge Orie, he's the Judge in the middle, he just asked you if
14 they -- he asked you whether they pointed their guns at you. I want you
15 to concentrate on that. You said they had weapons. Did they --
16 A. They pointed the guns, but this person did not allow them to shoot
17 at us. And then they lowered their weapons and didn't do anything to us.
18 This is a fact.
19 Q. Can you remember --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, perhaps I'd like to verify that.
21 I earlier said: "May I take it that they did not point the
22 weapons to you," but you now seem to say that they did point the weapons
23 to you but they were stopped to do anything further by this person.
24 Important is, if you just look at me for a second, if you'd just look at
25 me for a second.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please, go on.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please look at me. If this is a weapon, my arm, was
3 it like that, or did they point it at you and they were stopped from
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They pointed their weapons. Maybe
6 you didn't listen to me carefully. I said to you before. But they
7 lowered their weapons only when this person told them not to shoot at us.
8 Maybe you didn't understand me right. I am repeating it to make it clear.
9 And then they left us alone after that, and then we followed this mountain
10 route and went to Batush, and then the Serbian army took us.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. Maybe you can demonstrate. Can you stand up? Yes, up. Just
14 hold the guns like the KLA did at your family. Just demonstrate what they
16 A. Like this, and then this guy yelled at them. We were sitting like
17 this. He did not let them shoot at us, and they didn't do anything to us.
18 Q. You said they pointed their guns. Show the Judge, who just asked
19 you the questions, with your arms, as if you're holding a gun. Pretend
20 you've got a gun in your hand; all right? Now, what did they do?
21 A. Like this. They wanted to shoot, and then this guy shouted at
22 them, and then they first raised their weapons and pointed them at us, and
23 then they lowered their weapons.
24 Q. Just do that pointing bit again. I want to describe what you just
1 A. They wanted to fire at us. This is how they made their hands.
2 And they rose their arms up, and then they lowered them again, and then
3 they let us alone.
4 MR. RE: Could the record reflect that it was a sort of a
5 classical shooting position from the shoulder.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's difficult, because there's not only face
8 distortion but also body distortion, to some extent. I think that it's
9 sufficiently reflected that the witness showed with her hands that at
10 least they went up in a -- I wouldn't say a fully horizontal position, but
11 at least at some moment there was some kind of a horizontal movement, and
12 then arms went down again. That's the most we can say.
13 Mr. Re, you may proceed. I don't know how much time you still
14 think you'd need for -- to finish your examination-in-chief.
15 MR. RE: Hopefully not long.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. RE:
18 Q. Please sit. Now, how many of them pointed their weapons at you in
19 the way you've just demonstrated?
20 A. What can I tell you? I don't remember very well. They were a
21 couple of steps away from us. Twenty minutes, I don't know. It's a long
22 time since then, and I was worried about my children.
23 Q. When I say numbers, are we talking about 1, 2, 10, 20, 100, 5?
24 How many?
25 A. The family of my elder sister-in-law?
1 Q. No. How many KLA men pointed their weapons at you? More than
3 A. They were many. No, no, they were many. I don't know. I don't
4 know how many exactly they were. I didn't know them.
5 Q. Okay. Now, next, was your family and you --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I'd like to receive an answer to your last
8 You said there were many KLA men. Could you tell us how many
9 among them did point their weapons at you and/or your family? Did they do
10 it, all? Was there ...
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were four, five, ten, I don't
12 know. But I do know that there were several. And a long time has passed
13 since then, but I cannot exactly tell you how many. Three to five. I
14 didn't pay much attention. I was frightened.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, please proceed.
16 MR. RE:
17 Q. When they were doing this, pointing their guns at you, wanting to
18 shoot you, where was your family? Was it sitting, standing, kneeling?
19 What were you doing?
20 A. We were standing. And then they didn't take us long. They
21 allowed us to leave. Maybe this all lasted 10 or 20 minutes.
22 Q. Why were you standing?
23 A. We were about to leave from Jasiq, to leave that place, because we
24 were frightened because they were shouting and yelling, and then we left.
25 That guy did not let them fire at us, and then they let us go.
1 Q. When they were pointing --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, just for your information, the Chamber wants
3 you to finish the examination-in-chief before the break, and that's
4 another nine minutes.
5 MR. RE: I'm trying very hard.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes. Just for you to know that the Chamber has
7 decided that it should not take any longer.
8 MR. RE:
9 Q. When they were pointing their guns at you, you said you were
10 standing. Were you standing in a circle, in a line, in clusters,
11 together? Just describe how you were standing.
12 A. We were lined up.
13 Q. All right.
14 A. All our family.
15 Q. Okay. How were you lined up? How did you come to be lined up?
16 A. We were lined up. We were on the point of leaving, and then they
17 did what they did. They prevented us from leaving, wanted to fire at us.
18 This person did not let them fire at us, and they stopped from firing.
19 That's it.
20 Q. Did they line you up?
21 A. Yes, yes, they did. They told us, We want to kill you, all of
23 Q. What did --
24 A. Because this is the family of -- they mentioned the name of my
25 elder sister-in-law. We want to kill all of you because she worked with
1 the Serbs. And then this man from Istog came in and ...
2 Q. Just talk about the lining up. What did they do so that you got
3 lined up?
4 A. He wanted to fire at us. I explained to you for the umpteenth
5 time: That person did not allow them to shoot and then they let us go
6 through the mountains, in the direction of Batush.
7 Q. All right. Stop.
8 A. We stumbled and we walked.
9 Q. Stop. Just the line-up. Did they tell you to stand in line?
10 A. Yes. They said, You should line up, all you members of the family
11 of my elder sister-in-law, because we want to kill you. And that man from
12 Istog did not let them.
13 Q. How did you feel when they lined you up and held their guns at
14 you, wanting to shoot you?
15 A. I heard them saying, We must kill the entire family. There were
16 many of them, but this man did not allow them.
17 Q. All right. That's not what I'm asking you, though. I'm asking
18 you how you felt.
19 A. Me? How did I feel?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. After that, nothing happened to us.
22 Q. What were your feelings at the time? Good, bad, something in
24 A. What can I say? I wasn't feeling well. I was sick. I was
25 crying. I was worried over my young children.
1 Q. Were your children with you?
2 A. Yes, they were with me. Yes, we were all together, the entire
4 Q. Were they in the line of people the KLA wanted to shoot?
5 A. Yes, all of us. I held them by the hands and held them close to
6 myself, and they were crying, they were scared.
7 Q. Okay. Let's do this very quickly. Where did you go to after
8 this, after the man from Istog intervened? Where did you go? Just tell
9 us quickly where you went.
10 A. We went through mountains, to Batush, to the Batusha mountain.
11 Q. Did you run into the Serbian -- did you find the Serbian army
12 there and did they look after you?
13 A. Yes. You mean the KLA? No. We walked through the mountains. It
14 was a hard walk. We heard fired shots but we kept walking and went to
16 Q. Okay. Now, finally, I want to ask you about your house in
17 Ponosevac and your sister-in-law's, that's 38's place, in Junik. Have you
18 been back to Ponosevac or Junik since that day?
19 A. I didn't go back, neither to Ponoshevc or Junik. Never went back.
20 Q. Why not?
21 A. Because I was scared. Because she worked, as I said, with the
22 Serbs and I didn't go back. And I don't know whether the houses have been
23 burned or not. I know nothing.
24 Q. Why were you scared to go back? What did you fear would happen if
25 you went back?
1 A. I was scared where to go. They didn't let you go back. Maybe
2 they were burned. I don't know. I was simply scared and refused to go
4 Q. Have any members of your family gone back to Ponosevac, to your
5 houses there?
6 A. No, they didn't. No one went back. I stayed in Gjakov. We
7 didn't go back there anymore.
8 Q. Did you leave Kosovo? Sorry, when did you leave Kosovo?
9 A. Over five years, five years and five months.
10 Q. Are you now living in Switzerland?
11 A. Yes. Yes, I do.
12 Q. Are you seeking asylum or refugeeship there?
13 A. Yes, asylum.
14 Q. When you say you were scared and refused to go back, what are you
15 scared -- what were you scared of? Why were you scared to go back to
16 Ponosevac? What was causing you the concern about going back?
17 A. Where should I go? Where could I go back? All my family was with
18 me, so why should I go back? Where could I go back to? We couldn't live
19 there anymore.
20 Q. Why couldn't you live there anymore?
21 A. I don't have any business going there. Nobody from my family
22 lives there. Why should I go? I have no business to go there.
23 Q. Why are you seeking asylum in Switzerland? What's the reason for
25 A. I am with my family. I have no place to go now that the houses
1 are burned. I'm not with my husband, with my children. Where can I go?
2 Where do you think I can go? There is no return for me there. There is
3 no place for me there.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Re.
5 Witness 58, it's time for a break. After the break, you'll be
6 cross-examined by counsel for the Defence.
7 We'll resume at ten minutes past 4.00.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 --- Recess taken at 3.45 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will give, first of all, a decision in
12 relation to Witness 58. This is a decision on protective measures for
13 Witness 58.
14 On the 9th of March of this year, the Prosecution and the Defence
15 collectively requested protective measures for a witness who had appeared
16 to testify without any pre-arranged protective measures. On the same day,
17 the Chamber orally granted a pseudonym for the witness, this being number
18 58, as well as face distortion. The Chamber hereby gives its reasoning
19 for this decision.
20 The party seeking protective measures for a witness must
21 demonstrate an objectively grounded risk to the security or welfare of the
22 witness or the witness's family, should it become known that the witness
23 has given evidence before the Tribunal. In the present case, it has come
24 to the attention of the Chamber that clear and direct threats have been
25 made towards family members of the witness. The Trial Chamber accepts
1 that there is a risk that if the identity of the witness were to be made
2 public, physical harm might result to the witness's family.
3 The Trial Chamber therefore granted the requested pseudonym and
4 face distortion.
5 This concludes this decision.
6 The other decision is an oral decision on the Prosecution's motion
7 of the 7th of March, 2007. It is the Prosecution's motion for protective
8 measures for Witnesses 4 and 19, filed on the 7th of March. In its
9 motion, the Prosecution requests the retention of the assigned pseudonyms
10 and the assignment of face and voice distortion.
11 The Chamber has been informed by the three Defence counsel that
12 they do not oppose the application.
13 In its motion, the Prosecution argues that the witnesses' family
14 still lives in the territory and that they face a serious risk of harm if
15 the witnesses' identity would be made public. The Chamber is satisfied
16 that should the witnesses' identity be made public, physical harm might
17 result to the witnesses' family.
18 The Trial Chamber therefore grants the Prosecution's request for
19 the retention of the assigned pseudonyms and the assignment of face and
20 voice distortion.
21 This concludes the Trial Chamber's decision on protective measures
22 for Witnesses 4 and 19.
23 Before asking Madam Usher to escort the witness into the
24 courtroom, as guidance for the Defence in relation to Witness 58, the
25 Chamber informs the Defence that the Chamber will consider her testimony
1 in relation to other evidence presented in relation to the counts 1 and 2.
2 And the Defence is invited to keep in mind and to be aware that the
3 Chamber, perhaps unlike a jury, is capable to distinguish between fake and
4 precise evidence, is capable of making a distinction between signs of
5 consistency and inconsistency, or whatever is important to consider when
6 considering evidence, even if the attention of the Chamber would not be
7 specifically drawn to every single aspect of this kind. This is just for
8 guidance of the Defence.
9 Then, Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into the
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/58 [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreters]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, you'll first be examined by Mr. Emmerson,
15 who is counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
16 Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
18 Q. Witness 58, I'm asking you questions from this side of the
20 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, that's Mr. Emmerson, who is going to ask
21 questions to you. He's standing now. Could you please look at him so
22 that there's --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know him. No, I don't know
25 JUDGE ORIE: You don't have to know him. But if you look at
1 Mr. Emmerson, then you know at least who is putting questions to you.
2 Mr. Emmerson is standing over there; yes? So if you look at him when he
3 puts questions to you, then you have at least some --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I don't know him.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear.
6 Mr. Emmerson.
7 MR. EMMERSON:
8 Q. Witness 58, I have just got one or two questions for you, and I
9 shouldn't be very long in asking you questions. Can I just emphasise at
10 the outset, you have said on a number of occasions that you are telling us
11 what you personally saw, and I'm not going to ask you about things that
12 you --
13 A. No, I don't know him. No, no, I don't know him.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, let me explain to you what happens in
15 this courtroom.
16 You earlier have met with the counsel for the Prosecution. You
17 have been interviewed by them. We are the Judges, so we'll hear your
18 evidence because we finally will have to decide this case. Now, just as
19 the Prosecution puts questions to you, counsel for the Defence, even if
20 you don't know them, are entitled to put questions to you as well. The
21 Prosecution may have asked questions which --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they can ask questions, but I
23 can only speak of things I know.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, that goes without saying, and they
25 will ask you about things you know. And perhaps if you slightly turn to
1 Mr. Emmerson, then it's -- then we all know that you understand that
2 Mr. Emmerson is questioning you and that you are giving responses to his
4 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
5 MR. EMMERSON:
6 Q. And, Witness 58, can I make it clear, I am not going to ask you
7 any questions about things you did not see. I'm not going to ask you any
8 questions about things that other people in your family may have said to
9 you. I just want to ask you questions about what you personally saw; all
11 A. I never seen him. I don't remember seeing him.
12 Q. That's fine.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Just put your questions, Mr. Emmerson. That might be
14 the best way to proceed.
15 MR. EMMERSON:
16 Q. Can I ask you this, first of all: When you went to the mill with
17 your family, did anybody force you --
18 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, do we have a translation for that?
19 JUDGE ORIE: I did not receive a translation. I don't know
20 whether the translators --
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness.
22 JUDGE ORIE: You just said something. Could you please repeat it,
23 because the interpreters could not hear you.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember him. I don't know
25 him. Maybe he was there, but I didn't see him. I don't know him. I
1 haven't seen him. Maybe he was there, but I didn't see him.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, I don't know who you're talking about.
3 It might be that you are talking about Mr. Haradinaj and that you have not
4 seen him there, I do not know. But carefully -- carefully --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't see him and I don't
6 know him.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If you first would be so kind to listen to the
8 questions put to you by Mr. Emmerson, and I don't think at the moment that
9 he's asking the question you gave a response to already. I think that ...
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I may speak but I don't know him. I
11 have never seen him.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, if you first listen to the question that
13 Mr. Emmerson will put to you, then tell me whether you understand that
14 question; if you understand it, then you can respond to that question. It
15 might be something totally different from what you think he might ask you.
16 Mr. Emmerson, could you please ask your first question?
17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
18 Q. Witness 58, the question I was asking you was, when you went with
19 your family to the mill, did anybody force you to go there, or did you and
20 your family choose to go there for your own safety?
21 A. We were told to leave the house, and we left and went to the mill.
22 I don't know him. I've never seen this person. Maybe he was there, but I
23 haven't seen him.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let's stop there. Let's stop there for a moment,
25 Witness 58. You said: "We were told to leave the house, and we left and
1 went to the mill." We're not talking about a specific person at this
2 moment at all. Did you choose, yourself, because you felt unsafe, to go
3 to the mill, or were you told by whomever that that's where you had to go?
4 Which of the two?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They came and they told us that we
6 had to leave and we left. I don't know who they were. I don't remember.
7 There were a lot of them. We left.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
10 MR. EMMERSON:
11 Q. And I think it's right, Witness 58, that it was your choice, the
12 family's choice, to go to the mill for safety; is that right?
13 A. No, not ourselves, but they told us that we had to leave and we
14 left. They were shooting, the windows were broken, and we left. They
15 said that all of us had to leave and we left. They forced us to leave. I
16 don't know who they were. I don't remember them. I don't know them.
17 Q. But did anybody specifically tell you that you had to go to the
18 mill rather than somewhere else?
19 A. Yes. This is what I'm saying. They came, the KLA, and they said
20 that we had to leave that place and we left. They said to us, There's no
21 place for you here, you have to leave, and we left.
22 JUDGE ORIE: May I again try to focus your attention on the
23 following: Mr. Emmerson was asking you, when they told you that you had
24 to leave, you can then do that in several ways. You can say, You have to
25 leave and you have to go there, for example, to the mill, or to say, You
1 have to leave; choose where you want to go. Now, what was it? Did they
2 leave it to you to decide where to go, or did they say you have to leave,
3 and you have to go to the mill?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said, Leave this place, and
5 then we went to the Tofaj place. I think that's what it's called.
6 MR. EMMERSON:
7 Q. You've said now on a number of occasions over the last few
8 minutes: "I have never seen this person. Maybe he was there but I
9 didn't --"
10 A. No, no, I don't know him. That's correct, I don't know him, and
11 that's what I said then.
12 Q. Who are you referring to?
13 A. I don't know who these people who came and told us to leave were.
14 Q. I see.
15 A. So we left. They told us to leave, but as I said, I don't know
16 who they were. I don't know them.
17 Q. Thank you. When you were at the mill, did you or any members of
18 your family or your husband's family go inside a building at any time, or
19 were you always outside?
20 A. Outside, outside. We stayed outside. We stayed outside. Tell
21 them we stayed outside.
22 Q. And when you left the mill area, you've told us that you walked up
23 to the Jasiq mountain where you spent the night; is that right?
24 A. That's right. Correct. It was cold; it was raining. That's
1 Q. And when you were walking from the mill at Tofaj up to the Jasiq
2 mountain, were both of your sisters-in-law with you at that time, walking
3 up from the mill area to the mountain?
4 A. The children, the sisters-in-law, both of them, the wife of my
5 father-in-law, my father-in-law, and we went on foot to Jasiq mountain.
6 Q. I just want to concentrate on the two sisters-in-law for a moment
7 or two. Both of them were with you on the journey up the mountain; is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes, that's how it was. We were all together.
10 Q. Do you remember how many nights you slept at the same place in the
11 mountain? Was it one night or two nights?
12 A. No, no, it was one night. Not exactly one night. It was 7.00 or
13 8.00, I don't remember exactly. We spent the night there. It was night.
14 Q. And it was the next morning, that is to say, the morning after the
15 first night, that you left and went further up the hill towards Gjocaj; is
16 that correct?
17 A. Yes, that's correct.
18 Q. And were both of your sisters with you during that night in the
19 Jasiq mountains that you spent in the open air? Were both of your
20 sisters-in-law -- I'm sorry, both of your sisters-in-law with you over
21 that night?
22 A. Yes, we were all together there. We were all together. We stayed
23 there without any food, without any water.
24 Q. Were you all dressed, clothed, over that night?
25 A. Well, what we had to put on, it was cold. We didn't have any
1 jackets; we didn't have any food; any water. It was raining. We were
2 shivering from cold.
3 Q. But none of you was, for example, completely naked on the journey
4 up the mountains or overnight, were you, completely naked?
5 A. I encircled my children. We stayed there. There were many
6 people. The mountain was full of people. There were many of them in the
7 mountain. I was only interested in my own children and myself.
8 Q. Neither of your sisters-in-law was naked walking up the mountain
9 or during the night there, were they?
10 A. As I said earlier, I wasn't paying attention. We were all
11 together. I wasn't paying attention. I took my own children by the hand.
12 They were crying. They were asking for food; we didn't have any to give
13 them. We didn't have any water, anything. Whether she had her clothes on
14 or not, that I don't know. I wasn't paying attention. I was feeling
15 lost. I was scared.
16 Q. Were there other people in the place where you spent the night,
17 apart from yourself and your family and your husband's family?
18 A. You mean from the Roma? From the Roma people?
19 Q. Not necessarily. Any other people there?
20 A. There were many. I wasn't looking, I wasn't paying attention, but
21 there were many.
22 Q. And were you and your family and your husband's family all
23 together in a little group there?
24 A. Yes, we stayed together, all of us, in Jasiq. We were shivering
25 from cold. It was horrible. There was no food. We didn't have anything
1 to drink. We talked. We were --
2 THE INTERPRETER: If the witness could please repeat the last
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last thing you said?
5 You said: "We didn't have anything to drink. We talked." And then you
6 said: "We were ..." Could you please repeat that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't have anything to eat,
8 anything to drink. We didn't have any clothes. We were crying. We were
9 scared. I already stated this.
10 MR. EMMERSON:
11 Q. I understand what you're saying, but can I just ask you this: You
12 say you talked to one another. Were you close enough to talk to your
13 elder sister-in-law, that is to say, 38?
14 A. Where? Here? Could you please tell me? You mean in the
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. Yes. We were together in the mountain. And as for here, no. We
18 stayed there in the mountain, scared, cold. It was raining. No food,
19 nothing to drink. Together with my father-in-law, with his wife, with the
21 Q. I just have one more point to put to you on this part of the
22 evidence, Witness 58. If you were there close enough to talk to your
23 elder sister-in-law, you would have noticed, wouldn't you, if she was
24 completely naked in that field overnight?
25 A. I didn't see whether she had her clothes on. I was looking after
1 my own children. We stayed there together. I don't remember, and I
2 apologise, but I was looking after my children. It was night. Things
3 that I know, I can talk about those things, and what I don't know, I
4 cannot say anything about it. This is all I can say. This is what I know
5 and what I saw.
6 Q. The next morning, you and your family and your husband's family
7 left that area, you've told us, and walked up towards Gjocaj; is that
9 A. Yes, that's right. Correct. Correct.
10 Q. And you've told us about some things that you say happened up
11 there. I want to ask you about the man that you say intervened to protect
13 A. Yes, he protected us. They wanted to shoot, but he didn't let
14 them shoot. He protected us. That's a fact.
15 Q. And this man was from Istog, you said?
16 A. Yes, yes, he is from Istog, that's correct. That's a fact.
17 Q. Do you know his name?
18 A. His name is Gani. He's from Istog.
19 Q. Does the name Gani Nimonaj mean anything to you? Is that his
21 A. Yes, yes. That one I know very well. He is Gani Nimonaj, and I
22 know him. That's a fact, that I know him. He rescued us.
2 Q. Now, you've told us that you were at one point standing in a line,
3 getting ready initially to leave the area; is that right?
4 A. That's right. And we went to Batusha mountains. That's a fact.
5 Q. Can you remember whether Gani Nimonaj was wearing a uniform or
7 A. No, no, he wasn't. He was wearing civilian clothes. He wasn't
8 clothed in uniform.
9 Q. Do you remember if he had a gun or not?
10 A. No, no, no. No, he didn't have anything. He was in civilian
11 clothes; he wasn't wearing uniform. And I cannot tell you something that
12 wasn't. He wasn't wearing uniform.
13 Q. Thank you. And when you heard him talking to the men who had
14 guns, were you facing those men or did you have your backs to them, your
15 back, you yourself?
16 A. Facing them. I lowered my head down. I held my children close to
17 me. They were crying; I was crying. We were all scared. They wanted to
18 shoot, and he didn't let them shoot. They said to him, This is their
19 family and we will kill them, but he didn't let them do that.
20 Q. And this was by an unarmed civilian, simply saying to them that
21 they should not do it?
22 A. Yes. He didn't let them fire at us, and he was dressed in
23 civilian clothes.
24 Q. And then you and your family and your husband's family were
25 allowed to leave, and no one tried to shoot you or shoot after you?
1 A. Yes. They fired but we tried to escape, and we went to Batush.
2 Q. Can I just clarify that last answer. Nobody shot at you, did
4 A. They didn't fire at us, but they shot I don't know where. We just
5 left the place and went to Batush.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Can we go into closed session for just one moment,
7 please, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, private session.
9 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 MR. EMMERSON:
13 Q. Finally, Witness 58, I just wanted to go back to the very
14 beginning of your evidence and to what you told us about the Serbs
15 arriving in Ponosevac. Can I ask you this --
16 A. You can ask me. They told us to leave.
17 Q. -- were all the villagers from Ponosevac and the surrounding
18 villages all forced, during those few days, to leave that area and seek
19 refuge in Junik from the Serb forces?
20 A. First, there were the Serbs. We didn't leave first. And then the
21 KLA came and they told us to leave, because you are with the Serbs, and
22 then it was then that we left. Then they came after the Serbs.
23 Q. I'm not just asking about your own family; I'm asking about all of
24 the people in Ponosevac and in the villages around.
25 A. It was only us there, I with my husband's family. No one else.
1 The other houses were empty. Only us were -- there were others, but they
2 were further away, maybe 20 or 30 minutes away from us. How can I tell
3 you? (redacted)
5 Q. And when you got to Junik, you went there because you thought
6 you'd be safe in Junik, didn't you?
7 A. We didn't have problems. First, we didn't have problems. Then we
8 heard shots. They came and they told you what I knew -- what I know.
9 Q. I just want to suggest to you, Witness 58, that thousands, roughly
10 3.000 people, from Ponosevac and the surrounding villages all ran from the
11 Serb forces during the weeks between the 5th and the 28th of May, and that
12 by the time the war broke out in Junik, there were 3.000 refugees seeking
13 refuge from Serbian forces in the Albanian village of Junik, of whom your
14 family was one.
15 A. Whose family? Can you explain? We were only us, our family, my
16 husband's family. We were in Ponoshevc. There were others, but they were
17 down below. We were, what to say, rather isolated, our house.
18 Q. I'm simply suggesting to you that you were not the only family to
19 run from your homes, to seek refuge in Junik, and that there were
20 thousands of others from Ponosevac and the surrounding villages who were
21 fleeing from the Serb forces to take refuge in Junik.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Those are my questions, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.
2 One second, please.
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour. For this witness, I have
6 no questions.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
8 MR. HARVEY: I have no questions for this witness, Your Honour.
9 Thank you.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Witness --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hoepfel has one or more questions for you,
12 Witness 58. Listen carefully to him.
13 Questioned by the Court:
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I wanted to ask you how many children you have?
15 A. Two girls.
16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And how old are they by now?
17 A. The elder one will turn 21 in August; the other one, 15.
18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I have -- I have no questions for you.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, is there any need to re-examine the witness?
22 MR. RE: I have no questions in re-examination.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You have no questions.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you allow me, I want to tell you
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Tell us whatever you would like to tell us at
2 this moment, if it is something you've seen, if it's something you know
3 from your experience.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I was going to say something
5 about my children.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please tell us about your children.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What can I tell you? Because of
8 them, I stayed with the children, even though my husband remarried. I
9 endured a lot of sufferings for them, and this is why I feel so bad,
10 because of them. I would kindly ask you to do something about my younger
11 daughter, if you can.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 58, I do understand that this is a request
13 which comes from the heart of a mother. At the same time, I have to tell
14 you that this Tribunal is here to try cases which have been brought to
15 this Chamber by the Prosecution, and we --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- don't have the competence to do anything
18 specifically for your children.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise to you for this request.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I can understand that a mother tries to use every
21 opportunity to achieve the best for her children.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE ORIE: So that's understood.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: This, Witness 58, this concludes your evidence before
1 this Court.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, sir.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to thank you very much for having answered
4 all the questions put to you by the Prosecution, by the Defence, by the
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you very much. That's it.
7 Thank you all.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You're excused. Would you please follow Madam Usher,
9 who will escort you out of the courtroom.
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 JUDGE ORIE: I think this would be a suitable moment to hear from the
12 Defence on the protective measures sought, and therefore we should go into
13 private session, Madam Registrar.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 944-949 redacted. Private session.
12 [Closed session]
11 Pages 951-953 redacted. Closed session.
20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I was informed that you'd like to raise
23 MR. RE: Yes, very briefly, thank you, Your Honour.
24 The witness tomorrow, Witness 19, in relation to disclosure -- not
25 disclosure, but providing the Trial Chamber with a copy of the statement
1 and the proofing notes, we provided it to -- the proofing notes to the
2 Defence, I think, at 2.00 on Friday. We're still awaiting their okay to
3 provide it to the Trial Chamber. And the -- we understand we're sitting
4 tomorrow at 9.00 a.m. So perhaps the Trial Chamber could gently ask the
5 Defence to respond.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. The response will be to Mr. Re, within the
8 half hour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And would it be a release or would it be the
10 suggestion not to release it to the Chamber?
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Chances are pretty good it will be a release, Your
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, that's great. And we know what homework there
14 is to be done.
15 Then having dealt with this, Mr. Re, is the Prosecution ready to
16 call its next witness, the next witness - let me just have a look - being
17 Mr. Stanisa Radosevic; is that right?
18 MR. RE: The Prosecution is ready to proceed. The witness is
19 outside, and Mr. Dutertre will take that witness in chief.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Then, Madam Usher, would you please escort the witness into the
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. -- I take it,
25 Mr. Stanisa Radosevic. Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules
1 of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that
2 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 Madam Registrar will now hand over to you the text of the solemn
4 declaration. May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
6 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: STANISA RADOSEVIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter].
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Radosevic. You'll
10 first be examined by Mr. Dutertre, who is counsel for the Prosecution.
11 Mr. Dutertre, please proceed.
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Examination by Mr. Dutertre:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Radosevic, good day. Your name is Stanisa
15 Radosevic. You were born 21 November 1974 in Decan; is this true?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. What is your profession today, Mr. Radosevic?
18 A. Since the year 2000, I've been a police officer. Otherwise, I'm
19 an expert in communication.
20 Q. Mr. Radosevic, where was your family house in 1998?
21 A. It's situated in the village of Lasinac [as interpreted], Decani
23 Q. Would you please repeat what you've just said. The village of
25 A. The village of Dasinovac, Decani municipality.
1 Q. Yes, very well. What sort of city is it? Is it a village, a
2 city, a suburb?
3 A. It's a village.
4 Q. Thank you. Who was living in your family house at that time with
6 A. My father, my mother, my brother and his wife lived with me.
7 Q. Could you give us the name of your father?
8 A. My father's name was Slobodan Radosevic.
9 Q. At that time, were you a member of any armed organisation?
10 A. No, I wasn't.
11 Q. What was your professional occupation then, in those days?
12 A. I was a security officer for a company in Decani. The same of the
13 company is Decanski Borovi.
14 Q. What company was it?
15 A. No. I didn't receive a translation.
16 Q. I will repeat the question. What company was it? You said you
17 were working for a company in Decani. What company was it?
18 A. The name was Decanski Borovi company. It was a holiday resort
19 where -- where displaced persons from Albanian were housed.
20 Q. What was the ethnic origin of these people?
21 A. Do you mean who these displaced persons from Albania were or who I
22 was working with?
23 Q. I wish to know the ethnic origin of these displaced people from
24 Albania. Yes?
25 A. Those were Serbs from Albania. They were displaced during the
1 19th, first to Podgorica, and then they were relocated to Decani.
2 Q. Very well. What was the composition of the population in your
3 village of Dasinovac, where your family was, of Dasinovac? What was the
4 composition of Serbs, Montenegrins, and other people of other
6 A. Serbs, Montenegrins, and Albanians were living there as
8 Q. How many Serb inhabitants in this village, in this village of
9 Dasinovac, how many inhabitants were of Serb ethnicity?
10 A. There were about 20 households, so that would make a total of 60
12 Q. When did you, for the first time, hear about the Liberation Army
13 of Kosovo?
14 A. In 1998 is when I heard about it. I heard it in the media, on TV.
15 That was approximately the beginning of March 1998.
16 Q. And what did you hear about the KLA in the media?
17 A. Well, we heard that they were moving solely during night-time;
18 that they were setting ambushes; that they were patrolling the area and
19 attacking Serbian houses.
20 Q. Do you know about any specific incident among people you knew
21 which would have had the KLA which would have had a role in this, part in
23 A. We had a friend, Culafic, from the neighbouring village of Ratis
24 and his house had been shelled by the KLA.
25 Q. How did you hear about this?
1 A. We heard on TV that his house had been shelled by the KLA. He was
2 a family friend, and we went over there to see what had happened. If they
3 needed any help, if their house was so damaged or destroyed, we wanted to
4 offer them to move with us. That is why we went there.
5 Q. And what did you see when you arrived on the site, and what did
6 they tell you?
7 A. They were afraid. They told us that they had been shelled during
8 the night, around 2.00 or 3.00 a.m., that their house was shelled.
9 Q. What did you notice yourself about this house?
10 A. I noticed that part of the house was destroyed. Where a window to
11 the hallway was, the window was destroyed and one part of the house was
12 destroyed, in fact, where it was hit by a shell.
13 Q. You said that there had been an attack around 2.00 or 3.00 a.m.,
14 in the middle of the night. Could you approximately tell us, what was the
15 date when this attack took place?
16 A. I don't know the exact date, but it was definitely in April 1998.
17 Q. The ethnicity of this family, what was it?
18 A. Serbian.
19 Q. Do you know of other events in which -- other incidents in which
20 the KLA -- some people you knew could have been victims or had problems?
21 A. Yes. I had friends who were taken prisoner in the village of
22 Glodjane Dubrava --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the name of the
24 captured person?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the name of the captured
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Dragoslav Stojanovic, Mijat
3 Stojanovic a.k.a. Giqa, and Veselin Stijovic.
4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Who told you about this event?
6 A. Nobody told me about it. I went to see Vesko Stijovic and
7 Dragoslav in hospital, and I saw with my own eyes they had been captured.
8 Q. And what did he precisely tell you?
9 A. They told me that they had been captured by the KLA in their
10 house; that they had been fired upon and shelled; that after the capture
11 they were maltreated and beaten; and that they had released them after a
12 certain period of time. Their house was in Dubrava, but they were
13 released and told to go to Decani.
14 Q. And when did this take place, approximately? Can you give us an
15 idea when?
16 A. I think it was sometime around the 15th of April until the 18th.
17 Around that time. I'm not sure of the exact date.
18 Q. These persons were of Serbian nationality or ethnicity, weren't
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. On the 22nd of April, 1998, what did you do, Mr. Radosevic?
22 A. Well, I am not sure about the date. On the 20th or 21st of April,
23 I went -- came to the village to visit my parents, and I took my mother to
24 see a doctor in Decani, and on that day I slept at my uncle's house in
1 Q. Where was your mother at that time?
2 A. Well, she was at home. And on that day I went there, since she
3 was quite ill, I took her to see a doctor in Decani, to the health centre
4 in Decani.
5 Q. Yes, in Decani. Understood. And the next day, what did you do?
6 A. On the next day, in the morning, at around 9.00 or 9.30, I set out
7 with my mother to go to the village of Dasinovac, to my house. I went
8 there with my friend Novak Stijovic. We set out with two cars. When we
9 reached the village of Pozare, we were stopped by the terrorists.
10 Q. You just said that you were intercepted by terrorists. Could you
11 indicate for us how they stopped you?
12 A. They stopped me. I was the first one in my car, Lada. Novak was
13 behind in his Yugo. And then near the village of Pozare, at the
14 intersection for Donja Juka and Rznic, there were four or five of them in
15 civilian clothes who came out on the road and pointed automatic rifles at
16 me. One of them waved his arm at me to stop.
17 Q. You said they came out. Where did they come out from?
18 A. They came out from some kind of a shelter. There was a small
19 concrete trench there, kind of a shelter, and we couldn't see at the
20 distance of 300 to 400 metres that there was something there. So we came
21 out of this trench or a ditch.
22 Q. Would you please describe in more detail how were they -- they
23 were dressed and whether you saw any uniforms?
24 A. Three of them wore civilian clothes and two of them wore uniforms.
25 One uniform was a NATO-type uniform, and the other one was a black and
1 red uniform with dots and stripes, thin stripes. And on their sleeves,
2 they had emblems of the Kosovo Liberation Army.
3 Q. Would you please describe what they had on their sleeves, this
5 A. What do you want me to describe, the colour or what, or the
6 appearance of it?
7 Q. Tell me what was written on this emblem and what you could see on
8 that badge, exactly, precisely?
9 A. Well, there was a double-headed black eagle on the emblem, and
10 above its head there were three capital letters, UCK, meaning KLA, and at
11 the bottom of the emblem there was an inscription, "Kosovo Liberation
12 Army", in Albanian.
13 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to display Exhibit 9 on
14 the screen.
15 Q. Mr. Radosevic, can you see that document on your screen, on the
16 screen in front of you?
17 JUDGE ORIE: I take it you'd like to have Exhibit P9 on the
19 MR. DUTERTRE: Yes, P9.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is the emblem.
21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. You stated that these men carried weapons. Could you please
23 describe these weapons for us?
24 A. These were semi-automatic and automatic rifles.
25 Q. These individuals were members of the KLA. What did they do when
1 you stopped your car and when your brother stopped his car -- or rather,
2 you and Novak Stijovic, when you stopped your cars? What did they do?
3 A. Well, they stopped us. The five of them approached us. One of
4 them asked me, Where are you going, and I told him I was on my way home.
5 And he said, Can't you see that you can't go there, and I said, Well, I
6 didn't know that. Then he said to me to get out of the car. He asked
7 whether I had any weapons; I told him I didn't. And then he said, Should
8 I find any weapons, I'm going to kill you, and he said -- and I said, Go
9 ahead, kill me.
10 And then this man searched the car. He took a knife and cut the
11 upholstery on the seats, looking for weapons.
12 Q. Could you describe that man for us?
13 A. Well, I don't know his name. I know him by sight. I know that he
14 was a former policeman in Prizren. About 180 centimetres tall, of large
15 build, blonde. He had a red vest on him and wore civilian clothes.
16 Q. In what language did he speak when he talked to you?
17 A. Right there, while he addressed me, while he was alone near my
18 car, he spoke half in Albanian and half in Serbian.
19 Q. What reason did he give you when he said that you could not go
20 back to your village of Dasinovac?
21 A. The reason he gave us is that this was no longer ours. We had
22 nothing to look for there, that it was theirs now. They had established a
23 checkpoint there and that Serbs could no longer live there, could no
24 longer have a peaceful life there.
25 Q. Whilst you were talking with this soldier, what happened to
1 Novak Stijovic?
2 A. They also approached him, one of them in uniform, the other one in
3 civilian clothes. What they told him, I really couldn't say anything
4 about because they were some 3 metres away from me, and I don't know what
5 they talked about.
6 Q. After this search he conducted in your vehicle, and since you were
7 not allowed to go on towards Dasinovac, what did these individuals say
8 that you had to do? What did they tell you to do?
9 A. They told us to park the car and to turn towards Rznic in our car
10 and to halt there, and that they would take us perhaps to the headquarters
11 in Glodjane.
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to have displayed on
13 screen Exhibit 1007, that's the 65 ter number of that exhibit, 1007.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number P10,
16 marked for identification.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] It's a map and it takes quite some
19 time for it to be uploaded.
20 Q. Witness, can you see the map now on your screen?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Mr. Radosevic, you have a tactile screen in front of you, and I'd
23 like you to show us and to mark where the Decani city is to be found, your
24 own village of Dasinovac, and then I'd like you to trace the route you
25 took from Decani to the point where you were stopped by these men.
1 A. This is Decani here. So we were captured here at the intersection
2 of the roads leading to Donja Luka and Pozare.
3 Q. Could you please trace a circle around your village, the village
4 of Dasinovac, where your family house is to be found?
5 A. [Marks].
6 Q. Thank you very much.
7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to have this map saved
8 and I'd like to tender it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the -- do we need separate numbers
10 for the map without any annotations and then now the annotated map, the
11 marked map?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number P11,
13 marked for identification.
14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Radosevic. What was the distance between
16 the place where they stopped you on the road to Decani and the place where
17 they told you to park your car on the road towards Rznic?
18 A. Four to 5 kilometres. Four to 5 kilometres is the distance
19 between Decani and village of Pozare.
20 Q. No. I'll repeat my question. What was the distance between the
21 place where you were stopped by the soldiers, next to Pozare, and the
22 place where they told you to park your car later on?
23 A. I misunderstood your question. I'd say up to some 3 metres. I
24 turned off the main road, and there was a turn to the village of Rznic.
25 Q. And that's the place where you parked your car?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. How long did you stay on that particular spot?
3 A. In that place, we spent half an hour. They got out of the
4 shelter, and there were about 40 of them, all armed, and they started
5 debating who was going to go with us to Glodjane, to escort us there. So
6 we spent some half an hour there.
7 Q. Could you please describe the clothes these men were wearing,
8 these 40 individuals who arrived on the scene at that time?
9 A. Well, a lot of them were in civilian clothes with KLA insignia
10 either on the sleeves or on their caps, and then some of them wore
11 uniforms, as I've told you.
12 Q. Did you know where these people were from, what village, what
13 region they were from?
14 A. Most of them were from Donja Luka, Pozare, Lubarda, and another
15 village. Most of them were from there; 70 per cent of them were from
16 those villages.
17 Q. How did you know that these people were from these villages?
18 A. You mean whether I knew?
19 Q. How did you know?
20 A. I knew because I had lived there for 23 years. I went to school
21 there, to work. I would drive them; they would drive me to work. We knew
22 each other by sight. We knew each other.
23 Q. Could you please describe the type of weapons these soldiers were
24 carrying? You were talking about these 40 soldiers who suddenly
25 appeared. Can you please describe their weapons for us?
1 A. They were semi-automatic and automatic weapons.
2 Q. Did you notice any type of communication equipment they had?
3 A. I didn't observe that they used any communication devices.
4 Q. After half an hour had elapsed and once they had discussed on how
5 to take you to Glodjane, what happened, exactly, then, and what did they
6 finally decide to do?
7 A. The one who arrested me - and I don't know his name - he took
8 Novak's car, and he got in front of my car. My mother was told to sit in
9 front, Novak was told to sit in the back, and then there was a guy with an
10 automatic rifle behind me, and I was told to follow the Yugo. And then we
11 went to the village of Rznic.
12 Q. What road did you take?
13 A. We took the road from Pozare to Rznic and then on to Glodjane.
14 Q. Very well.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can we see that also on the map?
16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I will show that very soon.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Why not now?
18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you for anticipating what I
19 was about to do.
20 Q. What were your chances of escaping at that time? How would you
21 assess them?
22 A. Well, there was no way we could have escaped. From Pozare, all
23 along the road, every 100 metres there were armed persons. At the main
24 intersections, they had dug out trenches, made fortifications, erected
25 bunkers, so there was no way for us to escape. I didn't want to risk my
1 life and my mother's life and that of Novak.
2 Q. How many trenches did you see overall?
3 A. Well, I'm not sure exactly how many trenches, but at the
4 intersection of the road leading to Decani, there were definitely trenches
5 and fortifications there. I'm not exactly sure how many, but I know that
6 this is where the road -- there was a turn to Decani, and there were
7 bunkers and fortifications there.
8 Q. And how many soldiers did you see along the road?
9 A. How should I describe it? At that moment, I didn't really count
10 them. I didn't have occasion to count them, but there were a lot of them.
11 Well, let me give you -- rather, I was just afraid for my life and that of
12 my family.
13 Q. But would you say there were 50 of them, a hundred?
14 A. Definitely a hundred of them.
15 Q. And how would you describe their behaviour, as far as you could
16 see, of course, their morale?
17 A. Well, they acted happy. Whoever saw that we were arrested would
18 cheer. They would raise their fists in a celebratory way, and they sang
19 songs and they chanted, "KLA."
20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to have displayed on the
21 screen, once again, Exhibit P10, please.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think for practical purposes, I suggest that we
23 decide on the admission of it, of the map and the marked map. I don't
24 think that there's any objection. So that they are now exhibits, which
25 makes it easier. So that's now Exhibit P10. You'd like to ...
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Now, could we enlarge that, to have it like -- at
2 the left-hand Decani and towards the right, Dasinovac, and then down to
3 the lake at the right bottom? Can you do that?
4 JUDGE ORIE: To the extent it would still be unclear for the
5 registrar, P10 and P11, are therefore now exhibit -- admitted.
6 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. On this map, Witness, still using the pen that's on the right of
8 your screen, could you please indicate the route you followed between the
9 place where you were stopped by the soldiers and the village of Glodjane
10 where you were escorted by them.
11 A. Yes, I can.
12 Q. Thank you. Wait for a second. Maybe we'll have some more
13 markings to put on this map. What did you see when you first arrived in
15 A. The place where I marked is where I noticed, going from Rznic to
16 Glodjane, on the right-hand side, a fortification with some large-calibre
17 weapons and two soldiers in black uniforms.
18 Q. Could you please describe those large-calibre weapons.
19 A. I don't know how to describe it. It was just a large-calibre
20 weapon. It wasn't a small-calibre weapon but a large-calibre weapon.
21 Q. Very well.
22 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Could we save this map, please.
23 I'd like to tender this map into evidence.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, could we perhaps first try to have
25 one matter clarified. The witness said: "The place where I marked is
1 where I noticed, going from Rznic to Glodjane, on the right-hand side, a
2 fortification ..."
3 Now, I saw the witness marking a route rather than a place, so
4 it's not perfectly clear whether he meant the place, the last point of
5 this line, in Glodjane or --
6 Could you tell us exactly, and perhaps mark that with a small
7 cross, where you saw this fortification.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we reached this point,
9 and maybe after some 5 metres, the car broke down and everything that
10 happened there was about 10 metres from this fortification place.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Was that upon arrival in Glodjane or was it ...
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, at the very entry point to
13 Glodjane , perhaps 200 or 300 metres from the entrance to Glodjane.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now it's clear to me.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You did not make a cross.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you make a cross there where ...
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I put it a little bit further down,
18 but it's on the very edge here.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That will do. It's at least clear that that's
20 at the end of the line.
21 That, Madam Registrar, would then be P12, I take it.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P12.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I'd suggest that we immediately decide on admission,
24 unless there's any objection. There's not. So that will be Exhibit P12.
25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for this very
1 useful clarification, Your Honour.
2 Q. How many times did you go to Glodjane in your life, Witness?
3 A. I cannot tell you exactly, but I went many times to my friend
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last
7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You told us that the car had broken down. Whose car was it? Was
9 it your car? Was it your friend's car?
10 A. It was the car of my friend Novak Stijovic.
11 Q. And then what happened?
12 A. After the car had broken down, the men who brought us there told
13 us to get out. At that moment a Niva car and a Mercedes arrived, followed
14 by some individuals with a tractor. After they had alighted, they started
15 beating us, particularly Novak. They started hitting him. He fell down
16 onto the asphalt and they started kicking him. I couldn't watch that any
17 longer, so I set off.
18 Q. You said that they were hitting him. How many of them were
19 hitting your friend Stijovic?
20 A. Initially, for as long as I was composed, there were between three
21 and five of them taking turns.
22 Q. And what part of his body were they targeting in particular?
23 A. They beat him indiscriminately on the head, on the chest, to his
24 ribs. After he fell down, they also kicked him indiscriminately without
25 any concern of possibly causing any injury. They were totally reckless.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sorry, I'm lost a little bit. Can you help me?
2 Who is "they"? Witness, please explain to us a little more. You told us
3 about the Niva car and a Mercedes having arrived, followed by some
4 individuals with a tractor, and I would like to know who arrived. It's
5 not the cars, I guess it's people who arrived in their cars. And then:
6 "After they had alighted, they started beating us."
7 Could you explain a little, who came from which car and who was
8 then involved in that beating. Do you understand? It's just a little too
9 vague, the description.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A lad, some 35 years old, came out
11 of Niva. He had a sniper rifle and an automatic rifle. They were all in
12 uniforms. There were perhaps two or three of them in civilian clothes,
13 but all the rest of them were dressed in uniforms and they were all
14 members of the Kosovo Liberation Army.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Well, you are taking over again, okay. Please,
16 monsieur, be a little more precise, if possible.
17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You said that they hit Novak Stijovic. Were they using any
19 weapons or objects, or were they just beating him using their hands and
21 A. Initially they punched him and kicked him until I protected him
22 with my own back. Because I couldn't stand watching him being beaten any
23 longer, I turned my back to them in order to lift him and that is when
24 they started hitting me on the head, and I suffered a blow to the head
25 with a fist. Then they started kicking me, and for a moment I lost
1 consciousness. After that, when I came around, I was on the ground but I
2 saw that Novak had got up. They lifted me --
3 Q. Let's move gradually. Could you please give us a description of
4 the wounds suffered by your friend Novak, and could you tell us about his
5 general condition.
6 A. He was in a very difficult condition. He received numerous blows.
7 After he had fallen down onto the ground, he was kicked many times in his
9 Q. Moving to the blows you received yourself, you told us that you
10 tried to protect Novak by turning and putting yourself in between them and
11 him. Going back to the blows you received yourself, who was hitting you?
12 The same soldiers that had beaten Novak Stijovic?
13 A. Yes, yes. I stood between Novak and these soldiers with -- in
14 order to diverge their attention and so that they would start beating me,
15 instead of Novak, and to prevent them from hurting him any longer. He was
16 already badly hurt in the back and in the spine.
17 Q. What were these men saying while they were beating you, if they
18 said anything at all?
19 A. Well, they did. They cursed our Serbian mothers, asking us, What
20 do you want? Do you know who we are? They told all sorts of things. But
21 most of all, they used abusive language with respect to our Serbian
22 mothers, claiming that this was their land, What are you doing here, et
24 Q. You stated that you yourself had received a few blows, so let me
25 repeat the question I asked about Novak: How did they beat you? Did they
1 punch you with their hands or did they use any particular object?
2 A. When I tried to protect Novak, he hit me with their fists until I
3 fell down, then they kicked me while I was down. When I came around, they
4 threw us onto the car, and they continued kicking us and also using rifle
5 butts to hit us. I also received a blow with a pistol butt on the head
6 and my hand was bleeding. At that moment, they took away my address book,
7 and for each number or name in my book, whether that was a Serb, a Gypsy,
8 or whoever, I was beaten. They wanted to know everything about these
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, I'm looking at the clock. I have one
11 or two, perhaps three, observations to be made. We've got two minutes
12 left. Is this a suitable moment? Of course, it interrupts the flow of
13 evidence, but ...
14 Mr. Radosevic, we have to finish for the day. We'd like to see
15 you back tomorrow, and that would be tomorrow morning, at 9.00 in the same
16 courtroom. Madam Usher will escort you out of the courtroom, but I'd like
17 to instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony you have
18 given until now and the testimony still to be given in the days to come.
19 Would you please follow Madam Usher.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then a few observations.
23 First one, marking of maps. Does it make much sense to mark a map
24 for the first 3 kilometres, then another marked map for the next
25 5 kilometres? So if that could be concentrated. Of course, if other
1 exhibits come in between, then it might be necessary to do it this way.
2 Then the second. Mr. Dutertre, there are no scales on the map.
3 Scales on a map have the advantage that if you enlarge the map or if you
4 reduce the size of the map, that the scale will enlarge with the map and
5 reduce with the size as well, because we are now looking at map 7, which
6 says, small, that it's a scale of 1:100.000, but to be quite honest, map
7 6, which seems to be taken from the same and certainly is reduced in size
8 or the other one is enlarged, is also 1:100.000. So it's totally
9 impossible, on the basis of the scales you provided the Chamber with, to
10 verify any distance.
11 So, therefore, could you inform the Chamber, sooner or later,
12 whether the scale on map number 7, which is now Exhibit P10 and marked for
13 identification, 11 and 12, whether that's really 1:100.000 or whether it
14 has been enlarged already? And you're invited to provide us with maps
15 with scales on it, rather than just an indication of what the scale was in
16 the original.
17 Then, finally, a third observation. You have spent approximately
18 55 minutes with the witness now. The witness was scheduled for one hour.
19 We have the witness statement. We know what incident he'll testify about.
20 I would be surprised if you would finish within five minutes. This
21 witness, however, there were no objections from the Defence, the witness
22 is responding at a pace which is rather above than below the average, so
23 therefore I again express the concerns of the Chamber in relation -- in
24 respect of the assessment you've made on how much time every witness would
25 need. But still, it's your 125 hours, but I thought it wise to say it now
1 and not once you had used 100 hours.
2 We will adjourn and resume tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of
5 March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.