1 Tuesday, 13 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Mr. Emmerson, I was informed that you'd like to address the
12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. We have asked Your Honours to come in before
13 the witness is brought in --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. EMMERSON: -- simply to seek your guidance on one matter in
16 terms of this witness's proposed evidence-in-chief, and to avoid the need
17 to make objections in the course of the evidence, it seemed sensible to
18 do it --
19 JUDGE ORIE: If I may cut matters short, the Chamber was informed
20 that there is a part of a statement of this witness which gives
21 second-hand hearsay without giving the sources, that this was dealt with
22 in the proofing notes and that might be your concern, how to elicit this
23 evidence. And I do understand that you were kind enough to draw our
24 attention to part of the transcript, 6th of March, on the matter where
25 you have drawn our attention to what I said at that time, that as to
1 second-hand hearsay evidence or hearsay that's even more remote than
2 that, such evidence, as a rule, does not assist the Chamber and the
3 parties are urged to avoid it as much as possible, keeping in mind that
4 transparency and the flow of information is of greatest importance in
5 relation to such evidence.
6 So if, for whatever reason, you have to rely on it, then please
7 make sure that it's as clear as possible as far as sources are concerned.
8 That's what the Chamber understood.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Well, Your Honours, the relevant passage was
11 removed from the statement when it was handed to the Chamber. It's set
12 out on the first page of the clip I've handed up to you, and you'll see
13 that it's an allegation, based on rumour, first sentence, "from Albanian
14 friends whose names are not given," and that critically in the
15 penultimate line, "even though they were not eyewitnesses."
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. EMMERSON: So this is second-hand hearsay from an un-named
18 source, which the witness himself describes as rumour.
19 He then comments on that paragraph in his first set of proofing
20 notes. In the first sentence, everything is just hearsay. He says that
21 he spoke to one Albanian and then spoke to another, but it was all based
22 on hearsay. And not simply on hearsay, but as we know from the first
23 statement, hearsay from someone who's not an eye-witness. And as we
24 submit, that as the witness himself points out in the proofing notes,
25 that amounts to speculation by him, another matter which Your Honours
1 discouraged in the guidelines, and Mr. Dutertre has confirmed this
2 morning that the purpose of seeking to elicit this is to put it forward
3 as evidence of the truth of its content. If it were put forward for some
4 other reason, then considerations might be different.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. EMMERSON: We took objection to this passage in an e-mail to
7 the Prosecution on Sunday morning. This witness was proofed again
8 yesterday afternoon, and no further foundation for this has been elicited
9 from him. So it's guidance in respect of that that we'd seek from Your
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE ORIE: As guidance from the Chamber, the Chamber would not
14 disallow the Prosecution to elicit this evidence, but at the same time
15 the transparency requires that even if this would be in private session,
16 that the witness, at least, gives the names of those who have informed
18 Mr. Re -- no, I should say, Mr. Dutertre, that's understood, I
19 take it?
20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I've perfectly
21 understood, and that was the way I intended to proceed.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And, of course, you can draw the attention of
23 the witness to the fact that if you're asking questions about his source
24 and names, that he can request to go into private session then.
25 Yes, Mr. Emmerson.
1 MR. EMMERSON: And, Your Honour, I've invited Mr. Dutertre to
2 ensure that he proceeds in stages, in other words, to establish the
3 foundation before seeking to elicit the content.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would be a reasonable request, I would
6 Then, Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
8 MR. RE: Your Honours, while the witness is brought in --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. RE: -- could I just raise very, very briefly a matter --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. RE: -- and inform the Trial Chamber we have a new lawyer who
13 will be coming down today, Mr. Phillip Carney, who will be joining the
14 team, and I'll probably introduce him to the Court at the next break when
15 the next witness comes in.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it, Mr. Re, that you are delighted to
17 have reinforcement for your team. We'll welcome your new colleague.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 WITNESS: STANISA RADOSEVIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Radosevic. I'd like to remind you
22 that you're still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the
23 beginning of your testimony. Mr. Dutertre will now continue the
25 [Interpretation] Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Examination by Mr. Dutertre: [Continued]
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Radosevic, we'll resume where we stopped
4 yesterday. In essence, you told us that you were stopped by the KLA,
5 that you were arrested and then that you were taken to Glodjane. Just
6 before entering Glodjane, the car of your friend Novak Stijovic broke
7 down, and that's where other soldiers of the KLA arrived and started
8 beating you up.
9 I have the following question: How much time did these beatings
11 A. We stayed there in the street for about an hour before they put
12 us into the room, so we were questioned there in the street for about an
14 Q. You're talking about a street, but you're actually meaning the
15 road, I suppose?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You just mentioned a street, but you actually mean the road
19 leading to Glodjane, don't you?
20 A. Yes, yes. That's where our car broke down.
21 Q. And if we go back to my question, how long did the beating last?
22 I understood that you remained for about an hour next to the cars, but
23 how long did they beat you up?
24 A. Well, the whole time. While we were there next to the car, we
25 were questioned all the time. All the while we were there on the road,
1 they beat us, so an hour. We would be beaten after every question,
2 regardless of whether we provided an answer or not. We were just beaten
4 Q. Was your mother beaten as well?
5 A. They did not beat my mother, but my mother watched all that from
6 a distance of about 2 metres, and she was asking for a glass of water
7 because she had to take a pill. Then one of those people started to
8 curse her Serbian mother, saying, What do you think? And he didn't want
9 to give her a glass of water for her to take this pill. So she went down
10 and there was a puddle on the road, because it had been raining the day
11 before, and so she took some water from this puddle and took this pill.
12 Q. When they stopped beating you up, what did happen? You mentioned
13 a room. Can you please tell us what happened next, when they stopped
14 beating you up?
15 A. Well, a soldier, I think he was in charge because everybody
16 obeyed him -- they took us to a room 2 metres down from the road. It's a
17 room 3 by 3 metres. And when they took us in there, one of them started
18 beating us up, and the other guy said that we should not be beaten any
19 more, that he was there to interrogate us.
20 Q. You've just described a room. It was a house, I suppose. Can
21 you describe the house and tell us who it belonged to?
22 A. Well, I don't know who it belonged to, but as far as I can
23 recall, it was the second or the third house from Rznic to Glodjane, to
24 the right.
25 Q. You were in that room and you stated that you received blows at
1 the beginning, you were beaten up again. Do you know who beat you up
3 A. Well, there was a soldier from a group of these people who had
4 arrived in two cars and the tractor; one of those people.
5 Q. You stated that the one who was in charge intervened, he
6 prevented them from beating you up, and he wanted to interrogate you.
7 What did he ask you?
8 A. Well, all kinds of questions, whether I had a rifle, where the
9 police was, where the military was. And they would beat me for any
10 answer I gave. I would be beaten even if I just gave them a phone
11 number. So they asked me all kinds of questions.
12 Q. But what did they want, exactly, to know from you?
13 A. Well, he wanted us to surrender our weapons. He was asking us
14 about weapons, and Novak and I told him that we didn't have any weapons.
15 I said that my father had weapons because he used to go hunting.
16 Q. How many weapons did your father possess, and what type of
17 weapons were these?
18 A. He had two rifles, a hunting -- a shot-gun and a hunting rifle, a
19 carbine rifle.
20 Q. When you gave that information to the person who was
21 interrogating you, what did he answer? What did he ask you?
22 A. Well, he wanted me to go to the village and to surrender those
23 two rifles, for Novak and myself, and he said that he would kill my
24 mother and my friend if I didn't surrender the two rifles.
25 Q. You said that you were supposed to go to the village, he wanted
1 you to go to the village. What village is that?
2 A. The village of Dasinovac.
3 Q. How much time did he give you to go and fetch these weapons?
4 A. Well, he gave me half an hour. He gave me half an hour, and I
5 told him that I couldn't make it in half an hour. It was not enough
6 time. And then he said, Well, I'll give you an hour, and then I said I
7 didn't have enough fuel, and then this man said that I could do something
8 to get some fuel. And then I told him that I didn't dare go because they
9 would stop me again and beat me up. And then he gave me the insignia of
10 the Kosovo Liberation Army and said, Well, nobody is allowed to beat you
11 any more today. You just show them this insignia, and nobody will beat
13 Q. If I understand correctly, you've left your mother and your
14 friend with them, and you set off with your car. What route did you take
15 to go to your village of Dasinovac?
16 A. That's correct. I left my mother and my friend in the village of
17 Glodjane, and I went to fetch the hunting rifle. I went to Rznic, then
18 to Gornji Ratis, then from Gornji Ratis to Dasinovac.
19 Q. When you arrived at the family home in Dasinovac, who was there?
20 Who was in your home?
21 A. My father Slobodan was there.
22 Q. Did you tell him what had just happened to you, and did you tell
23 him about the demand made by these KLA soldiers about the weapons?
24 A. Yes, I told him about it, and he said -- he gave me the carbine,
25 and he said that he was doing that in order for us to get Novak and my
1 mother out alive. And he told me that if I could possibly do that, that
2 I should not go to Glodjane but to Decani to get the other rifle.
3 Q. And in terms of his own safety, what was your father worried
5 A. Well, he was concerned because of the way I looked, and he was
6 concerned about what would happen to me and my mother.
7 Q. So what did he decide to do about himself?
8 A. Well, I told him that there were checkpoints, that they had set
9 up checkpoints everywhere, that the troops were deployed there, holding
10 some kind of a line, and that it was not safe, that he could not move
11 freely. And then he said after nightfall, he would try to get out and go
12 to Decani through the woods.
13 Q. You left Dasinovac, if I understand correctly, with one weapon in
14 order to go to Decani to retrieve a second weapon there. On your way
15 from Dasinovac to Decani, what happened?
16 A. Well, as I was going back, in the hamlet of Bandera I was stopped
17 by three persons. I had my rifle with me. One of them was called Caus,
18 and I told him, Caus, this is what happened, my -- our father -- or,
19 rather, my mother and Novak had been captured, and I have to go and
20 surrender this rifle, and I have to go to Decani to get the other one,
21 and he said that he would go with me as far as Pozare to tell them to let
22 me go and to go to Decani to get the other rifle. So I handed over the
23 rifle that I had.
24 Q. Do you know the last name, the family name, of this Caus?
25 A. Well, I'm not sure. I think it's Pandja, but I'm not sure. I
1 really am not sure.
2 Q. And where did you meet him for the first time?
3 A. Well, I'd see him often. He used to work in a company in Decani
4 and, well, he socialised with Serbs.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last part
6 of his answer?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last part of your
8 answer. You said: "He used to work in a company in Decani and, well, he
9 socialised with Serbs." And what did you then say, or is that what you
10 just -- what you said?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I didn't know his last
12 name. I knew him by sight. I knew that he socialised with Serbs and
13 Albanians. We used to travel together by car, and so we just knew each
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. How old was he, approximately?
18 A. Well, 35, 40. Between 35 and 40.
19 Q. Once you reached Pozare, what happened there?
20 A. When we got to Pozare, he got out of the car and he negotiated
21 with those people to let me through to Decani, to let me get that other
22 rifle. Others -- one group was saying, No, you can't go. Go to Glodjane
23 instead. Another group was in favour of letting me go through to Decani.
24 Q. So what was the decision in the end?
25 A. Well, finally, one young man approached me and said, Is it sure
1 that you're going to get that rifle? I said, Yes. He said, What kind of
2 rifle? I said, Automatic rifle. And then this man said, All right. You
3 can go to Decani and get that rifle.
4 Q. In Pozare, were they the same soldiers as the ones who stopped
5 you before, or were these other soldiers?
6 A. It was the same group.
7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Did you make use of these -- you had with you.
8 You had mentioned something about an insignia they gave you to show. Did
9 you do that or ...
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the only purpose of
11 that insignia was to stop them from beating me.
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And just one additional question. What kind of
13 insignia do you mean? Was this a badge or what should we think it was?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was their badge, a badge of the
15 Kosovo Liberation Army, with the eagle emblem. It was something to be
16 placed on your arm.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So you were allowed to continue your route. So what did you do
20 once you reached Decani?
21 A. In Decani, I thought of going to the monastery in Decani to try
22 to get my mother and Novak out through their organisation in Pristina.
23 But in the meantime, the policeman from Decani took me to the health
24 centre to stitch up my wound and to have it bandaged.
25 Q. Did you give the policeman a statement in Decani?
1 A. Yes. I gave a statement at the police station.
2 Q. Then what happened to your mother and your friend Novak Stijovic?
3 A. After I was given that medical assistance, I went to the police
4 station - it was around 14 or 1500 hours - to give that statement, and at
5 that time I was informed that one policeman, on his way to Djakovica from
6 Decani, ran into my mother and Novak walking along the road towards
7 Decani, near the village of Prilep.
8 Q. Was your mother then taken to Decani together with Novak?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. And what did you do after that with your mother?
11 A. Since I couldn't go to Dasinovac village anymore, my uncle Mijo
12 Stesovic came to collect me and to take me to his apartment where I would
13 continue to live.
14 Q. What happened on the next day?
15 A. In the morning, I ran into some friends from the village, Slavisa
16 Markovic included, and he said he had come from the village, and that my
17 father had most probably been captured and killed. It happened the
18 evening before.
19 Q. What had he personally seen or heard about this abduction?
20 A. Well, he had a lot of gun-fire, which must have been the attack
21 at my house where my father was.
22 Q. How far was that from your house?
23 A. Maybe a kilometre and a half.
24 Q. Did you give -- did he give some indication about who had
25 abducted your father?
1 A. Well, he did. He said it was the KLA, the terrorists.
2 Q. How did he know that it was the KLA?
3 A. Well, nobody else could have done it because nobody else was
4 allowed to be there; nobody else was allowed to move down there. Only
5 the KLA, especially from the day when I was captured.
6 Q. Did he tell you what time that was, what time it was when he
7 heard the gun-shots?
8 A. He said it was 7.00, 7.30, in the evening.
9 Q. And how did he get to Decani, given the presence of the KLA
10 forces all around?
11 A. Well, he said so in his statement. Some persons came to his
12 house, friends or I don't know, and took him to Rausici village.
13 Q. What was the ethnicity of these people?
14 A. [No verbal response].
15 Q. When did you really get to know what had happened to your father?
16 A. Well, I found out exactly when I found him, on the 9th of
17 September, but in the meantime I also had news. And in April or early
18 May, on Radio Pristina, it was said that Slobodan Radosevic and Milos
19 Radunovic were found killed along the road.
20 Q. You mentioned that this was on the 9th of September you found the
21 body of your father. Who told you about the fact that your father's body
22 had been found?
23 A. The policeman from Decani.
24 Q. What was his name?
25 A. Zoran Nikic and Vule Mircic.
1 Q. Where did they tell you the body had been found?
2 A. They said the bodies had been found by the road, near the village
3 of Dasinovac, not far from my house.
4 Q. Did you go there?
5 A. Not the first day when they had found him because I was unable to
6 go there. I went the next day, and I saw the spot where the bodies had
7 been found, the bodies of Milos Radunovic and my father, Slobodan
9 Q. How were you able to locate this spot on the road to Decani? Had
10 you been given specific indications? Were you able to locate it easily?
11 A. Well, since they were residents of Dasinovac village and since I
12 had been told that he was found by the village road, so-called Ninka
13 Road, I looked by the road and it was found. Plus, it was cordoned off
14 by the -- by police tape, the way it's usually done in an on-site
16 Q. What do you mean by "cordoned off"?
17 A. When I came there in the morning, by the road on the spot that
18 was indicated to me, scene-of-crime officers had performed an on-site
19 investigation earlier that day, and the spot was marked with yellow
20 police tape before the bodies were taken to Pastrik Hotel for
21 identification and autopsy.
22 Q. Where is the Pastrik Hotel? Did you go to this hotel, Hotel
24 A. I went the next day. I couldn't go the same day, but I did go
25 the next day to identify the belongings and to take over the corpse of my
1 father; also to identify him.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, from what I think I heard, the witness
3 has answered your question: "Where is the Pastrik Hotel?" However, on
4 the transcript, no answer is recorded. Could you please ask that again?
5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Radosevic, where is Hotel Pastrik located?
7 A. Pastrik Hotel is in Djakovica.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I would like to show the map,
10 which is Exhibit number 10, which we've seen on several occasions
11 yesterday already.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Exhibit P10.
13 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Radosevic, could you indicate on this map the route you
15 followed when you came from Glodjane to go to Dasinovac, please, and
16 thereafter could you show us the route you followed from Dasinovac to
17 Decani; thereafter, show us where the village of Prilep is, where your
18 mother and Novak Stijovic were found. Also, could you show us
19 approximately, at any rate, the place where your father's body was found,
21 A. Well, could we maybe enhance this map somehow. Maybe zoom in.
22 So since this is a village, that road, that track, it's not drawn
23 into the map, this road by which the bodies were found. Shall I just
24 make a circle around the village itself, the village of Prilep?
25 Q. Yes, you can draw a circle around the village, please.
1 A. Prilep.
2 Q. Could you then show us - let's do it in the right order - the
3 route you followed between Dasinovac and Decani, on the way back?
4 A. Up to Pozare, the road was an asphalt on. From Pozare on, it was
5 a macadam road.
6 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Can we keep this map aside -- no,
7 can we scroll it and go more to the left so we can see Decani properly?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, shall we do it one step by one; that
9 is, you invited the witness, first of all, to indicate where Prilep is.
10 Ask the witness to make the circle as he indicated - I have not seen it
11 yet - and then perhaps add a letter P to that.
12 Could you make a circle where Prilep is?
13 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
14 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
15 JUDGE ORIE: There it is. Yes. I see it's on the map, Prilep.
16 Now, the next step, Mr. Dutertre, you invited the witness to indicate his
17 route from Dasinovac to Decani. Could you please indicate which road --
18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] That's right.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- runs from Dasinovac to Decani.
20 THE WITNESS: [Marks].
21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. Could you indicate the route between Glodjane and Dasinovac and
23 Dasinovac and Decani. Could you mark this with an arrow to show us which
24 direction you were going in, please?
25 A. [Marks].
1 Q. Could you now show us approximately where the body of your father
2 was found; at any rate, where you went and where you saw the area being
3 cordoned off?
4 A. I didn't find the scene-of-crime officers there, but
5 approximately here. Maybe the village road is not drawn in, that macadam
6 road I told you about, but it was approximately there by this line.
7 Q. Could you mark this with a cross? Could you mark it with a cross
8 to indicate the spot where the bodies were found and where you went, the
9 spot where the bodies of Radunovic and Radosevic were found?
10 A. [Marks].
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to save this map, please,
13 and tender it into evidence.
14 JUDGE ORIE: If there's no objection, it could immediately be
16 Madam Registrar, that would be P13, I take it?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, you're right. This will be
18 Exhibit number P13.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 I would like to bring up on the screen the Exhibit number P868,
23 which is a 65 ter document, page 3, please.
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: A 65 ter document?
25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] 868, page 3.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number P14.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. For the time being, marked for identification.
4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Could we enlarge this photograph,
6 Q. Mr. Radosevic, what comments do you have to make, looking at this
8 A. It's a photograph of the spot where my father and Milos Radunovic
9 were found; in fact, their bodies.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
12 document or photograph into evidence, please.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If there are no objections, then it's admitted into
15 I do understand that this picture is one out of a series. Are
16 you intending to enter just this picture or the whole series of pictures?
17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Just this photograph, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Radosevic ...
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar earlier had in mind to grant -- to
23 attribute P14 to the whole series. She now is limited to this one
24 photograph. And that is tendered and that photograph is now admitted as
25 Exhibit P14.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Radosevic, I'm now about to ask you a number of questions,
4 and I would like you to answer each of my questions and in a precise and
5 accurate manner, and please do not go beyond my questions when you answer
6 them. Could you at least provide a short answer in the first case?
7 Now, after that, did you hear anything about what had happened to
8 your father; yes or no?
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon? What do you mean by "after that"?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 997-1000 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, can I still ask
21 questions to the witness as to the content of the information given by
22 this individual? Very well.
23 Q. Mr. Radosevic, what did this friend tell you precisely on the
24 abduction and death of your father?
25 A. Well, he told me that he had been captured by the KLA and taken
1 to the village of Glodjane, and that he had tried to protect them but
2 that he had been beaten for his efforts to protect Serbs.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could we, in this part of the evidence, could you
4 insist that the witness always clearly describes -- for example, if he
5 says that he told me that he had been captured, that the witness gives us
6 details of what was told to him; for example, that he told you that he
7 was present when he was captured or was not present when he was captured.
8 We'd like to know exactly what your friend observed himself and what,
9 possibly, he has heard from others or whether he got information from any
10 other person.
11 So could you please be very precise in that respect. So could
12 you please restart your answer where you said that: "He told me that he
13 had been captured by the KLA." Did he tell you that your friend was
14 present when your father was captured by the KLA?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, he was not there on site when
16 he had been captured. When they headed to Glodjane, when they passed by
17 his house, he went out and, most probably, he stopped them and tried to
18 save the two of them. Well, probably he had been beaten. I don't know
19 how they influenced him. But he said that he had been beaten.
20 So when he had been captured, when they headed from my house
21 towards Glodjane, he stopped there. He stood in the road, maybe 5 or 6
22 metres down the road, and he just stopped them.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
24 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. You mention two individuals. Did he give you the names of these
1 two people? I understood your father was there. Did he give you the
2 name of the other person?
3 A. Yes. Milos Radunovic.
4 Q. What did he say to the soldiers when he stopped them on the road?
5 What was the content of what he said to the soldiers? Did he tell you?
6 A. Well, he didn't tell me in so many words what he had told the
7 soldiers. He went out and he said that they should let them go, that
8 Slobodan Radosevic and Milos Radunovic did not deserve this kind of fate,
9 for them to take them and to abuse them.
10 Q. When he stopped them, did he tell you what means of
11 transportation they were using, Milos Radunovic and Slobodan, your
13 A. Well, he said that it was by car, but he didn't specify the make.
14 And he said that the persons, the soldiers, were not from the village of
16 Q. How many cars were they? Did he tell you?
17 A. No. No, he didn't.
18 Q. What were the names of the soldiers who were taking your father
19 and Milos Radunovic? Did he know these men? Did he tell you who they
21 A. Well, he didn't tell me specifically who they were. He only told
22 me that they were not from the village of Dasinovac. The locals were not
23 involved in my father's kidnapping.
24 Q. Who is Deli Lekaj? Do you know that individual? Deli Lekaj; do
25 you know that individual?
1 A. Well, I know him by sight. I heard that he had been in the
2 Kosovo Liberation Army at the time when Vesko Stijovic had been arrested,
3 Dragoslav Stojanovic and Kika Stojanovic, when they were all arrested. I
4 heard rumours that he had participated in the murder of my father, but I
5 can't say that for sure because I, myself, did not see it. So that I
6 don't have the exact information that would point to the fact that he
7 killed my father, but I do have some information indicating that he did
8 participate in the murder of my father.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, I'd like to seek to clarify.
10 You first said you heard rumours. Later, you said you do have
11 some information. Do you have any information which goes beyond rumours?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, I know that
13 Delija Lekaj participated in the capture of Vesko Stijovic, Dragoslav
14 Stojanovic and Kika Stojanovic, but I heard the rumour, I did not have
15 the exact information. I heard the rumour that he participated in the
16 arrest of my father.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it's -- the information is, at this moment,
18 just rumour.
19 Now you told us that you know that he participated in the capture
20 of the other people you mentioned; that is, Mr. Stijovic and two
21 Stojanovics. Have you seen that? Have you -- what's the source of your
22 knowledge in relation to the capture of these persons and the involvement
23 of Mr. Lekaj in that?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Vesko Stijovic is a close
25 family friend of ours. He told me about this whole incident when he was
1 captured and how he was interrogated and what kind of advice he was
2 given. So I heard it from Vesko Stijovic, Dragoslav and Kika Stojanovic,
3 that this man had been in the Kosovo Liberation Army in Glodjane at the
4 time of their arrest.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And also that he was involved; that this man was
6 involved in their arrest, or ...?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That he was involved in their
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Once more, which man are we talking about? Can
12 you repeat the name, who was involved in the arrest, according to what
13 you said?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Delija Lekaj.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. Did your friend describe the physical condition of Milos
19 Radunovic and of your father, Slobodan Radosevic, when he stopped the UCK
20 soldiers taking these two persons?
21 A. Well, he said that they had been beaten up. He couldn't see very
22 clearly whether they were injured or not. They had been beaten up. At
23 any rate, he told me that they were alive when they were taken to
25 Q. How did he describe the blows that he received himself?
1 A. Well, they punched him for defending the Serbs.
2 Q. Let me go back a little. How many soldiers were they when he
3 stopped them to try and save your father, as well as Milos Radunovic?
4 A. Well, from what he told me, they were in two cars, so maybe seven
5 or eight of them.
6 Q. And your friend was adamant that these were UCK soldiers?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. You said that he told you that they left towards Glodjane. How
9 could he know that they were heading towards Glodjane?
10 A. Well, the same as when we were arrested. Whatever happened,
11 whoever was arrested by the KLA, they would be taken to the headquarters
12 in Glodjane where they were interrogated and so on.
13 Q. To be more specific, you said there were two cars. In which
14 direction did those two cars go?
15 A. Well, they headed from Dasinovac to Pozare, where they probably
16 took a turn to Glodjane.
17 Q. He observed all this himself. Did he tell you anything else?
18 A. Well, he said that he had heard a rumour that the two of them had
19 been killed later and thrown by the road near the Linkin Put location and
20 that they were up there, and then maybe three or four months later he
21 went there to check whether that was really true. He took a shovel with
22 him, and then he just threw some soil over them. They were already
24 Q. Did he give you any names of people who had committed the murder
25 of your father and of Milos Radunovic?
1 A. No. No, he didn't.
2 Q. And you yourself, did you find out anything else about the
3 circumstances of these deaths?
4 A. Well, I heard rumours that they had been taken to Glodjane; that
5 they had been questioned there; that Milos Radunovic was wounded in the
6 hand, Slobodan Radosevic in his leg; that they were taken to Prilep
7 village to be taken on to Decani. In the Prilep village, the villagers
8 said, Don't leave them there; otherwise, we could be blamed for it. So
9 they were taken back to Dasinovac village, and they were killed there, or
10 maybe they were left to bleed to death.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're now talking about rumours which are --
12 sometimes rumours can play a role in evidence; for example, if you said
13 your friend heard by rumours that your father's body was thrown at the
14 side of the road and that made him look for it, then the rumour is the
15 reason why he went there.
16 Here you're talking about the substance. If you have no further
17 information about the source of these rumours, then I would invite
18 Mr. Dutertre to move on to his next subject, because you'll understand,
19 in a court of law, rumours can play only a very limited role, as I just
20 explained to you.
21 Mr. Dutertre, I'm also looking at the clock at this moment.
22 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I am almost at the end.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. Mr. Radosevic, did you give another statement to other people
1 about what happened to you?
2 A. I gave statements to journalists. I gave a statement at the
3 monastery, I don't know which organisation exactly it was, but I gave
4 that statement in the monastery of Decani concerning what had happened to
5 me and my mother.
6 Q. You mentioned an organisation. Did I understand you correctly?
7 You were questioned by an organisation, but it was not anything related
8 to the police?
9 A. Yes. It was an organisation but I can't remember which. Some
10 sort of organisation, yes, I do remember that, but which one I can't
11 recall now.
12 Q. What did you tell them precisely?
13 A. Well, I told them that -- I told them everything that had
14 happened to me that day, how I was captured, where I was taken, what I
15 was forced to do, how we were mistreated and abused. I told them also I
16 had heard on the radio that my father was left lying by the road, or his
17 body, rather.
18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to show Exhibit number 5.
19 It's an exhibit already. And I'd like to have a look at pages 14 and 15
20 of that exhibit. That's the English version of the document, but
21 yesterday we provided a translation of this document in Serbian to all
22 Defence teams. They will correct me if I'm wrong. And I also believe
23 that this document has been uploaded into the e-court system. But I'd
24 like the original Serb versions to be shown to the witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it that you're referring to P5.
1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the Serbian version be enlarged on the
3 screen so the witness can -- yes, that very much seems to be the English
5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Radosevic, can you please read -- have a look at this
7 document and make comments about this document, if you have any.
8 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to rise to my feet. I think there may
9 be some confusion between P5 and P6. I understand Mr. Dutertre intends
10 to put to this witness his own statement, but I think on the system what
11 is coming up is, at least in English, a statement made by a different
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, if I look at the
14 translation, I see that on the top we find K057 and then 7181, and then
15 K057 and then 7182. However, on the translation, I find K057-7193, which
16 seems to be a different document, but I'm not quite sure what has
17 happened here. But I see that the numbers are not corresponding.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. The translation is for e14glodj.doc which is
19 the correct reference for the translation of this witness's HLC
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. EMMERSON: The reference that Mr. Dutertre has given is to
23 e20glodj.doc, which is a different witness's statement.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Dutertre, could you help us out?
25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I asked for the
1 following document to be displayed: Pages 14 and 15, K057-7121.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure of the number.
3 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] And on your screen, you have not
4 the right document. We should have 7181 and not 7193.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that e20glodj.doc is on the screen,
6 whereas we are -- we want to look at, which is a bit of an odd number,
7 that it's "e" small "i4," but I take it that's for e14, which is --
8 MR. EMMERSON: That's a mis-transcription. The document that
9 Mr. Dutertre is looking for is e14glodj.doc.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, we have now got the
11 English and the right versions.
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, here we are.
13 Q. Mr. Radosevic, could you please comment on this document for us,
15 A. Well, that's the statement that I gave at the monastery to that
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could we have the second microphone turned on
18 for the witness?
19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Are there any corrections you'd like to make or anything else you
21 would like to say about this page?
22 A. No. I have nothing to add.
23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Could we move on to the next page
24 both in English and in Serbian, and here we find the heart of the
25 statement, the substance of the statement.
1 Q. Mr. Radosevic, can you please have a look at this document and
2 comment on it in any way you see fit.
3 A. Well, that's the statement that I gave that day at the monastery
4 to that organisation.
5 Q. Any comments about this document, if you've read it?
6 A. Yes, I have a comment to make to the very statement, the
7 introductory part.
8 Q. Can you please make that comment?
9 A. Well, it says here that I had run away; in fact, that they turned
10 up in our village on the 21st of April, the Kosovo Liberation Army, and
11 that I fled with my mother and friend to the youth camp in Decani. We
12 didn't flee at all. That day I was taken, I was taking my mother to see
13 a doctor, and we spent the night in Decani, and I tried to go back to my
14 village but I was captured instead.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Did you have an opportunity to read the whole of
16 your statement right now or did you just read the beginning of it?
17 Otherwise, I'd suggest that we'll have a break now and that the
18 witness will be provided with a copy in his own language of the
19 statement so that he has an opportunity to review it during the break.
20 Is there any hard copy available in Serbian for the witness?
21 Yes, Mr. Dutertre.
22 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes. Here we have a translation
23 and attached to it we have the translation of the last document I wanted
24 to use, extracted from Exhibit P6. So I do not know whether you want to
25 give him both these translations now or only the translation of the
1 document we are currently dealing with.
2 MR. EMMERSON: I'd like an opportunity to see what it is that
3 Mr. Dutertre wishes the witness to read.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please show it to Mr. Emmerson,
5 because P5 is clear now but P6, then ...
6 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Exhibit P6, that's a "Spotlight"
7 report, number 26, and I'm interested in pages 18 and 19.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Having reviewed it, the last page - it might help
9 the witness to know this - the last page is, in fact, a separate
10 document. What it is is a translation into Serbian of an extract of
11 "Spotlight" report 26, one of the reports which we've already had
12 exhibited. If the witness doesn't realise that, it might very well be
13 misleading. So if they could be pulled apart on the staple so he knows
14 he's looking at two different documents, and I certainly have no
15 objection to him looking at either of them.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Mr. Radosevic, you will be provided with two documents in your
18 own language. The one is the document you just saw on the screen, which
19 I invite you to read carefully over the break to see whether there are
20 any further comments you'd like to make. And then you'll also be
21 provided with another document, but that document is not -- does not
22 reflect any statement of you, but it's a part of a report. I'd like you
23 to read that as well, and then we'll see what questions Mr. Dutertre
24 might have on that.
25 Could it be given to the witness in his own language? Yes.
1 Then I'd like you, Mr. Radosevic, to follow Mr. Usher and leave
2 the courtroom, read that. We'll have a break for a little bit less than
3 half an hour.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Dutertre, we spent now approximately two
6 and three-quarters of an hour on the testimony of a witness which was
7 scheduled for one hour, and of course I wondered. We have maps saying
8 exactly that he went from A to B on the road which is, I would say, the
9 road you take because it's the direct road between A and B. We have now
10 detailed information that the witness's mother was finally found in
11 Prilep. Of course, it could be that it has some very specific
12 importance, but until now it could have been any village in the area, if
13 not too far away from Decani and somewhere in the area. You spent a lot
14 of time on these kind of things, where I even wonder, apart from how
15 relevant it is to receive this information but perhaps it turns out to be
16 of vital importance, but also I've asked myself whether or not 80
17 per cent of this information could have been led through 89(F) or in
18 whatever other way, by just referring to the written statement.
19 Of course, we do not know yet what will be the real important
20 points on cross-examination, but at least the question came into my mind
21 and it might not have come into my mind if you would have finished this
22 witness's examination-in-chief within one hour, but since it has taken
23 now almost three hours, that question certainly came into my mind.
24 We will -- and, Mr. Emmerson, you're on your feet.
25 MR. EMMERSON: I was on my feet on another matter, but I should
1 say, in fairness to Mr. Dutertre, the amount of material with this
2 witness that could have been dealt with, so to speak, by agreement or by
3 reading as part of the overall description is comparatively limited. I
4 have questions for him which cover --
5 JUDGE ORIE: So, then, I might have been -- my concern still is
6 two and three-quarters of an hour, but perhaps on the substance I should
7 have waited until a later stage.
8 MR. EMMERSON: The other concern I have is that, for reasons I'm
9 not entirely sure about, we now have e12glodj.doc and a translation on
10 the screen. Now, I don't know whether there's a reason for that or it's
11 in any way found its way into the records, but there's something going
12 wrong with these documents. That's nothing whatever to do with this
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know whether it's recorded, what is on
15 the screen. Yes, I think it is. It has been shown. But e12 at this
16 moment has not been -- at least, we did not read anything from that.
17 We'll adjourn and resume at a quarter past 11.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 10.49 a.m.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 --- On resuming at 11.18 a.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Radosevic, did you have an opportunity to read
22 the documents?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Dutertre might have questions for you.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, thank you very much.
2 I will be very brief.
3 Q. Do you have any comments to make, any additions to what is stated
4 in these documents, Mr. Radosevic?
5 A. Yes, I do. I want to say that in the introductory part of this
6 one statement, what is written is not exactly what I said. It's not the
7 way it happened. It was not recorded correctly. It was not recorded as
8 I put it, as I stated it.
9 Q. Mr. Radosevic, can you please tell us specifically what document
10 you have in mind? There should be a number on this document on the top
11 right-hand corner.
12 A. It's document 71H2003.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Do you mean the correction you already told us
14 before about the reason to travel?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So we don't have to repeat that, I think.
17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Anything else you would like to add related to this document?
19 A. Nothing else. Everything is as stated in the document.
20 Q. Mr. Radosevic, now about the second document, P6, pages 18 and 19
21 in the English version. This is a one-page document that was given to
22 you together with the other documents.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Maybe it's better to stay with this document we
24 just saw before, and that saves time because we then don't have to go
25 back to this.
1 I just wanted to understand better. This was an interview or a
2 statement you gave a couple of days after that incident?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Good. And that was a time when you didn't yet
5 have any clear news about the fate of your father. Do I understand that
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You had heard -- in fact, you told us before, on
9 that same evening in the place, in your village or in where? You heard
10 something about a rumour that your father was abducted and killed, or you
11 say here different stories. "Some say he was wounded; others, that he
12 was killed." So I wanted to know: What did you do after that first
13 stories you had heard, on the same evening? Did you go, then, to the
14 place? Had you been, then, looking for your father? Because we jumped
15 to September, when you found the body, when the body was found, but I
16 wanted to know what you did in the beginning to find out about your
17 father. Can you give us information?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, it happened the next
19 morning. After I was captured, Slavisa Markovic came with his family
20 from Dasinovac village. His neighbours took him out up to Rausivac
21 village. So my father was captured at his own threshold by the
22 terrorists, and I lived in the hope that he was still alive to the last
23 day, to the 9th of September. I didn't really trust the rumours that he
24 was dead or wounded.
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So, once more, the last time you saw your father
1 was when you went for the hunting rifles; yes?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And you heard something that same evening or next
4 morning about him having been captured?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And then what did you do about that? Did you try
7 to find out more?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I tried. I tried through the
9 monastery to look into it and find out if they could find out through
10 NGOs, but I didn't manage to find out anything. Then I heard on the news
11 about their fate. I didn't believe it, I didn't believe they were lying
12 by the road. My sister tried in Podgorica. She went to the Red Cross to
13 try to check out that information that was on the news bulletin that they
14 were lying by the road, and they apparently went there to check it out
15 but apparently they didn't find them.
16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And was police involved? Did you involve police
17 in one way or the other? And did police investigate at your house in
18 your village?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I reported it the same day to the
20 police, the same day when I was captured. As soon as I was released, I
21 and Slavisa Markovic went to the police to give a statement, but the
22 police couldn't go to my village because it was blocked by the terrorist
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I have one clarifying question, I'm seeking
2 You had no further comments on the statement, you said. Now, in
3 the statement a description is given which includes the breakdown of
4 Novak's car, and then a little bit later, it says that they were punching
5 and hitting you. "It was around noon. They didn't hit my mother, but
6 they gave me and Novak a proper beating. Right there, in the middle of
7 the road." And then it continues: "At about 2 p.m., they decided to let
8 us go and towed our car to Prilep."
9 That's not -- you say you have no further comments, but your
10 testimony in this court was quite different from that, not that at about
11 2 p.m. they decided to let you go, but they said you had to go and find
12 the rifles, the weapons, they kept your mother more or less as a hostage,
13 and -- so that story, to that extent, it surprises me that you have no
14 further comments because these are two stories which are not the same.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, Your Honour, if I
16 omitted anything. But about this statement, about what you're saying,
17 it's true that it's written there. I stand by that first statement that
18 I gave to these gentlemen here as to what happened, how the car broke
19 down, how we were captured, mistreated, abused, beaten; that I went to
20 Dasinovac to get that rifle, that I turned it over, surrendered it, in
21 Pozare village.
22 JUDGE ORIE: So you're saying not only the beginning of the
23 statement is not recording, as you said, what you told them, but the end
24 of the recording, at least, does not reflect what you testified in this
25 courtroom, and you say that what you said in this courtroom is what
1 happened, if it deviates from anything said in this written statement.
2 Is that correct?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I stand by my first
4 statement that I gave. That's the statement that I signed. This is a
5 statement made by an NGO. They could have put all kinds of stuff in
6 there. It is correct that I was captured, but it's not true that I ran
7 away from the village. I went with my mother to Decani for her to see a
8 doctor. I was captured on our way back. I was not released by the
9 terrorists in the village of Prilep, nor was my mother released in
10 Prilep. And they towed their car there to Prilep by tractor and left
11 them there.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear.
13 JUDGE STOLE: One follow-up question. When did you see first
14 this statement as it is recorded here? Did you first see this statement
15 here in court, or were you presented with this statement at an earlier
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I saw this statement
18 yesterday. Yesterday.
19 JUDGE STOLE: In court?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE STOLE: So it follows from that, you were never given any
22 opportunities to comment on this -- what is recorded here?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Really, I had not seen
24 this statement before yesterday, so let me say it once again: It is
25 correct that I was captured and all that, but it is not true that I was
1 released in Prilep by the KLA. I was forced to surrender my rifle, and
2 my friend and my mother were released in Prilep.
3 JUDGE STOLE: Yes. Thank you.
4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] If I may, Your Honour -- Your
5 Honours, this document was shown to Mr. Radosevic during the proofing
6 session. He did give us his comments, as is reflected in the proofing
7 notes, and he did mention a number of things which he's just mentioned
8 here today.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I would now like to bring up on
11 the screen Exhibit P6, and more specifically pages 18 and 19.
12 Q. Mr. Radosevic, on the right-hand side, you have the translation
13 of pages 18 and 19; on the left-hand side, you have page 18, and we shall
14 enlarge page 18. What I'm interested in is what is located on the fifth
15 paragraph of this page. Do you have any comments to give us as regards
16 this document?
17 A. Well, I do have some amendments. My mother and myself went on
18 the 21st of April to Decani, from my village to Decani, that's what I
19 said already, for her to see her doctor. And then the next day, I headed
20 with my mother back to the village, and that's where -- when we were
21 captured. That's clear from the other statement. So it is true that I
22 left the village with my mother, and my father stayed in the village.
23 That is correct.
24 Q. But this was on the 21st of April, was it?
25 A. Yes, yes.
1 Q. Thank you. At the bottom of this page, if we turn to the last
2 paragraph, do you have any comments to make as regards this particular
4 A. No, nothing related to this paragraph. That is correct.
5 Q. I'd like to clarify something -- or question, rather. This was
6 Novak's rifle, Novak's father's rifle, that you were walking around with
7 or was it your father's rifle? The paragraph states that at around a
8 quarter past 2.00, you returned to the headquarters of the KLA, carrying
9 with you Novak's rifle.
10 A. No, no. I went there with the carbine that belonged to my late
11 father, to the village of Pozare, where Caus took the carbine, and I
12 wasn't able to find Novak's father's carbine. So I never went back to
13 the village of Glodjane, but I went to Decani in order purportedly to get
14 the other rifle because I was told to get two rifles. So I never went
15 back to Glodjane, I went straight to Decani.
16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Perhaps we could turn to page 19
17 now, please. We still have the translation up on the screen. I'm
18 referring to the first two paragraphs.
19 Q. You have the translation on the bottom right-hand side in your
20 version. Do you have any comments to make here?
21 A. I don't think I'm receiving any interpretation.
22 Q. The translation should be on one of the pages which is up on the
23 screen. It's the bottom part of the document. The translation is on the
24 same page in your version. This was given to you during the break.
25 A. Two paragraphs about the disappearance of Slobodan Radosevic?
1 Q. Yes, that's it.
2 A. Yes. I stand by this. It's just the first paragraph. I said
3 that on the 21st of April, I had gone with my mother to Decani for her to
4 see her doctor. We spent the night there, and in the morning we went
5 back to the village. So I state that once again. The second paragraph
6 is fine.
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Radosevic. I have no further questions.
8 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I would just like to inform the
9 Chamber that the scale of the map we have used is 1:100.000.
10 JUDGE ORIE: May I -- sooner or later, then, we'll hear what is
11 the scale of the other map. I mean, the scale is indicated as 1:100.000.
12 What makes you so sure about that it has never been enlarged or reduced
13 in size?
14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] The map we have been using all the
15 time is 1:100.000, and that is the information that was communicated to
16 me by the investigators through the Map Unit.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yesterday, I referred to map number 6, which is not
18 in evidence but which was provided to us at an early stage, which seems
19 to be the same map, although marked with some red circles on it. And at
20 the bottom of that map, which is clearly not the same scale, it also says
21 it's 1:100.000. This one -- I'm thinking about ...
22 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] The map we have been using is map
23 number 7, the one which we have been showing throughout.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's clear to me. So you're saying the --
25 of course, it's the same map, although reduced -- or enlarged or the
1 other one is reduced. So either one of the two is not indicating the
2 right scale or, perhaps, even both of them are not indicating the right
3 scale dependent on what is the original map, because on the original map
4 we find the scale which allows us to see what distances are.
5 I have other maps. I'll verify myself, on the basis of all the
6 material, whether this information -- whether it's correct that 7 still
7 is the original size. That's not difficult to do. I'll do that on the
8 basis of maps with the scale indicated on the map themselves, because
9 there you can compare.
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, we shall try and give
12 you a map tomorrow containing the scale we have just mentioned.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll wait and see what we receive. No
14 further questions for the witness.
15 Then, Mr. Emmerson, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
16 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I am.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Mr. Radosevic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Emmerson, who
19 is counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
21 Q. Mr. Radosevic, you've told us that at the time of this incident
22 in April, when you were stopped at the crossroads in Pozhare, you were
23 working as a security guard at a refugee camp; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And the people that you were guarding there were, by and large,
1 Serbs; is that right?
2 A. Yes. The people who were housed there were Serbs, but in the
3 company where I worked, the composition was mixed; there were Serbs and
5 Q. Was there an armed guard at the camp?
6 A. No.
7 Q. How long did you work there?
8 A. Four years.
9 Q. When did you leave your employment at the camp?
10 A. In 1998/1999, when those persons were put in the village of Junik
11 and Labovic, when they got their own homes.
12 Q. And so you remained working there right the way through the whole
13 of 1998, did you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Going back to the incident on the 21st/22nd, I just want to look
16 at some of the background questions with you, first of all. I think that
17 you had rented a room in Decan for yourself to live in, in order to be
18 closer to work; is that right?
19 A. Yes, that's right. The room was there in the company. So when
20 the weather was bad, I could sleep there in order not to have to go home.
21 Q. And your brother -- you have a brother called - forgive my
22 pronunciation if I get it wrong - Radoje? Radoje is your brother?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. He'd also left Dashinoc in order to move to Peje where he lived
25 and worked; is that right?
1 A. No, that's not correct.
2 Q. I see. Can you help us? Did he not live and work in Peje at
4 A. No. He did not work in Pec, he worked in a company in Decani.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the name of the
7 MR. EMMERSON:
8 Q. So he worked in a company in Decani. Where was he living?
9 A. Up until one month before this situation came up, he lived in
10 Decani. So that's when he left. His company closed down. He went to
11 Budvar to lay parquet floors. That's what he had been doing in the
12 previous company, but now he went to Budvar to do that for a privately
13 owned business.
14 Q. Neither of you had left Dashinoc in fear of the KLA, had you?
15 A. Well, we didn't leave it in fear of the KLA. I cannot say
16 anything bad about our neighbours. Our neighbours were good. We heard
17 from the news that they would walk around at night, but during the day
18 the situation was normal.
19 Q. And --
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Emmerson, excuse me, are you speaking of
22 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: It says --
24 MR. EMMERSON: Dashinoc is the Albanian pronunciation; Dasinovac
25 is the Serbian. I'm happy to use either.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: No, no, no. I don't know about the pronunciation
2 in the Albanian version, Dashinoc or something --
3 MR. EMMERSON: No, Dashinoc.
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay. So, please, we're speaking of the same
6 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I mean if from time to time, I --
7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: It's okay.
8 MR. EMMERSON: There's no significance to be attached to it.
9 Q. The point is, Mr. Radosevic, you hadn't seen yourself any
10 evidence of the KLA in your village before this incident, had you?
11 A. Well, not in my village. But I went to see my friend Culafic,
12 whose house had been shelled, but in my village nothing was noticeable.
13 Q. Thank you. And can I ask you this: Was that also a pattern in
14 other villages, that younger people left the countryside to live and work
15 in the larger towns? Other people that you knew of your own generation
16 had left the countryside villages quite often to live and work in the
17 larger towns?
18 A. Well, I can't really give you an answer to that question. I'm
19 not interested in other villages. What I'm interested in is my own, my
21 Q. Do you know the Vlahovics from Ratis?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the male members of the family of around your age, had they
24 also moved away to work elsewhere at this point?
25 A. Let me just tell you one thing: All of us worked in Pec or in
1 Decani, but we all went back to our homes to sleep there and to spend
2 time there.
3 Q. We know that your mother spent the night of the 21st, that is to
4 say, the night before this incident occurred, with you in Decan because
5 she was going to the doctor; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And we've looked, obviously, at the extracts from the report that
8 you've seen, as well as the statement that you are recorded as having
9 made to the NGO. The descriptions given there are wrong about this,
10 aren't they?
11 A. Let me repeat once again: There are things here that actually
12 did happen, but let me say once again: The correct statement is the one
13 that I signed. They could have written down anything they wanted. So I
14 stand by the statement that I signed.
15 Q. Yes, I understand that, but you are recorded as having told the
16 lady from the NGO that you had fled your village in fear of the KLA. And
17 I think you're telling us that you never said that to her; is that right?
18 A. Sir, if I had not fled, I would have been dead. I had to flee.
19 At one point, I handed over the rifle and I fled. They did not let me go
20 of their own free will.
21 Q. Mr. Radosevic, the statement you made to the NGO, which you've
22 got in front of you in Serbian, begins by a statement that says that you
23 left Dashinoc with your mother and your friend Novak and fled to a youth
24 camp in Decani after the KLA turned up in your village on the 21st of
25 April. Now, you've told us that's not true, is it? It's not true?
1 A. Sir, let me make this quite clear, once again: The journalists
2 and the NGOs, they can write whatever they please. I stand by my
4 On the 21st of April, I took my mother to see her doctor. I
5 worked the night-shift, and then we went back to our village, and we
6 were -- together with my friend, and we were arrested and taken to the
7 village of Pozhare. This is what I said in my statement.
8 Q. I understand that, Mr. Radosevic. If you can confine yourself to
9 answering my questions, we will move along more swiftly.
10 Now, the question I asked you was to confirm that what is
11 recorded in that statement is not true. It's not the truth, is it? The
12 first three lines of that statement in which it records that you said
13 you'd fled Dashinoc with your mother after the KLA turned up in your
14 village, that's not right, is it? That didn't happen?
15 A. No, it did not happen.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you say it to her or did she make that up?
17 A. To whom? To the NGO?
18 Q. Yes. Did you -- this was a document written by a woman who has a
19 number in this case, 28, and I'm asking you whether you said that to her
20 at the time or whether she made that up?
21 A. Sir, I gave the statement to the effect that on the 21st of
22 April, I was in the village of Dasinovac, that I went home, and that in
23 the morning I went with my mother and that we were arrested by the
24 terrorist soldiers in Pozare. So let me say once again: They can write
25 whatever they want, but let me say once again: On the 21st of April, I
1 was in the village of Dasinovac. I took my mother to see her doctor, so
2 I did not see Novak at all on that day. The next day, I met Novak and he
3 said that he would come with us by car, in our car, and in Pozare we were
4 captured. She may have changed the story. I'm not sure.
5 Q. I see. It's not possible that you told her that, then?
6 A. My mother may have said, or maybe Novak said something like that.
7 Q. This is an interview with you and you alone, Mr. Radosevic. Is
8 it possible that you told her that you'd run away from the village in
9 fear of the KLA, or is it not possible that you told her that?
10 A. I told her that I fled from the village on the 22nd, after I'd
11 surrendered the rifle.
12 Q. And did you tell her you fled to the youth camp in Decan, or did
13 she make that up?
14 A. She did not make that up. I told her that I had accommodation in
15 the youth camp, that I just spent the night there, and that in the
16 morning I went to the village of Dasinovac.
17 Q. Let me ask you a little bit about the background to the people
18 that you saw out on the road in Pozhare and along the way. I just want
19 to ask you some questions about the background.
20 Mr. Dutertre has taken you to a passage in the report published
21 by that NGO which deals with your position and the death of your father.
22 You've seen that passage, haven't you? The single sheet you have. Yes?
23 A. [No verbal response].
24 Q. Now, you will have seen from the screen that that is a passage
25 from a much longer report. I just want to ask you this: Had you
1 yourself heard about what had taken place in Drenica, in Likoshan and
2 Prekaz at the end of February, beginning of March?
3 A. Well, I heard from the news reports; I read it in the
5 Q. And did you read that 80 Kosovar Albanians, including women and
6 children, had been killed?
7 A. No, no, I had not heard.
8 Q. Did you hear that at Qirez and Likoshan, 12 people were arrested,
9 taken out, and put to death by the Serb forces? Did you know that?
10 A. No, I did not hear about that.
11 Q. And did you know that at Prekaz, amongst 37 people killed were
12 11 children and seven women? Did you know that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. I see. And all of this had happened just a few weeks before the
15 incident you're describing, hadn't it?
16 A. Well, I did hear about that, but I didn't believe in that. I can
17 only tell you what happened when I was captured and what happened to my
18 family. Now, as to what happened in those other areas, I cannot tell you
19 about that.
20 Q. No, Mr. Radosevic, I'm asking you about the attitude and
21 behaviour of the Albanian villagers that you saw out on the street and
22 what it was that was behind the way that you have described them
24 So can I ask you about the 24th of March and the police action in
25 Gllogjan on the 24th of March. You've mentioned that in your evidence
1 already. Were you aware of what took place in Gllogjan on the 24th of
3 A. Well, I heard the next day that he was killed.
4 Q. That a police officer called Otovic had been killed; yes?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you hear that three Albanian teenagers had been shot running
7 away from the village?
8 A. I really can't answer that question. I'm not the person who can
9 answer it.
10 Q. You know, don't you, some of the police officers who were
11 involved in that operation, personally; you knew them at the time?
12 A. I know all of them by sight. I can't not know them. But I'm not
13 sure they participated in that.
14 Q. Some of your friends participated in it, didn't they,
15 Mr. Radosevic?
16 A. Which friends?
17 Q. Momo Stijovic, for example. He's a friend of yours, isn't he?
18 Or he was?
19 A. I don't know where you got that from.
20 Q. Is he related to Novak Stijovic?
21 A. There are two persons called Momo Stijovic. Maybe you got some
22 wrong information.
23 Q. I see. Novak Stijovic has a brother called Momo; is that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Was he a police officer?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Were there other police officers in the Stijovic family?
4 A. No.
5 Q. I see. Do you know who Zoran Stijovic is?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Zoran Stijovic is a senior official of the RDB, the State
8 Security Service, or he was at this time. Did you know that Novak was
9 related to a senior official in the State Security Service, or is that
10 something you didn't know?
11 A. Maybe I met that man a month ago, perhaps, but I didn't know what
12 he was, and I didn't know -- had no idea that he was related to Novak.
13 Q. A month ago from today or a month ago at the time?
14 A. From today.
15 Q. I see. Without turning up the passage in the NGO report that
16 you've been taken to, I just want to read you a passage and see if this
17 is what you had heard; that "on the 24th of March, Serbian police
18 officers killed in flight three Kosovar Albanians, shelled houses in
19 which unarmed civilians had taken cover, placed in jeopardy the lives of
20 children, women, and arrested persons in order to defend themselves, and
21 used the house of the only non-Albanian family as a military facility."
22 Does that fairly describe what you had heard had taken place in
23 Gllogjan just a few weeks before the incident you're describing?
24 A. Sir, I'm telling you once again, I'm the wrong person to ask
25 about such things. I just don't know.
1 Q. You talked to the Stojanovic brothers and to Veselin Stijovic
2 about what happened to them in April, didn't you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And were you aware that there was a general belief that they had
5 been involved in providing facilities for the police to attack the
6 Haradinaj compound in Gllogjan?
7 A. Could you repeat that question?
8 Q. Yes. Were you aware that there was a general belief amongst the
9 Albanian population that the Stojanovic house had been used as a facility
10 to launch an attack on Gllogjan? Did you know that was an allegation
11 that was widely believed in the Albanian community?
12 A. I didn't hear about that.
13 Q. I see. You see, you've told us you had some Albanian friends. I
14 want to suggest to you that after Prekaz and Likoshan, after Gllogjan,
15 the Albanian community in that area, ordinary people, were angry and
16 frightened about what might happen again.
17 A. That's what you think.
18 Q. I'm asking you what you picked up from the Albanian friends that
19 you knew, Mr. Stijovic. I apologise, Mr. Radosevic.
20 A. You mean what happened in Glodjane and in other villages? Is
21 that what you mean?
22 Q. I'm asking you, from your contacts with Albanian friends that
23 you've told us about, had you not picked up the fact that the villagers
24 in that area were very frightened about the possibility that they were
25 going to be the subject of an attack comparable to what had happened in
1 Prekaz and Likoshan and to what had been attempted in Gllogjan, that
2 they were scared?
3 A. Sir, until the very last day when I left Decani, I was on
4 speaking terms, on good terms, with my neighbours. We never spoke about
5 the terrorist army or the police or any such things. I didn't speak
6 about such things with my friends. That's not the kind of thing we
7 discussed. Nor was I interested in what the police and the army or the
8 KLA were doing.
9 Q. I see. And nobody had told you, none of your friends had told
10 you, that in the villages around where your parents lived, ordinary
11 people were scared and taking up arms to protect themselves? Nobody told
12 you that?
13 A. No.
14 Q. So when you saw these men on the road in Pozhare, that came as a
15 complete surprise to you, did it?
16 A. Frightened.
17 Q. The question I asked you -- the question I asked you was whether
18 it came as a complete surprise to see, you've told us, 150 men, most of
19 them in civilian clothing, with weapons out on the streets?
20 A. I said it frightened me and surprised me. I was frightened
21 because I was captured, and I was surprised that something like that
22 could happen at all because I was on good terms with everybody. I had
23 never done any harm to anyone, neither me or my family.
24 Q. What was your cousin's job? I'm sorry, you've probably got more
25 than one cousin. Did you have a cousin in the Decani police?
1 A. No, no relatives. I have some friends among the police. Maybe
2 distant relatives.
3 Q. You're sure that your cousin is not involved in the police or
4 wasn't at the time?
5 A. Which one? Which relative? Which cousin?
6 Q. Just give me a moment. I think you've mentioned his name in your
7 testimony already. Can you remind us of the name of who it was who first
8 contacted you to tell you that your father's body had been found?
9 A. I talked to Vule Mircic and Zoran Nikic.
10 Q. Are you related to either of them?
11 A. Zoran Nikic is a distant relative; nothing close.
12 Q. Have you described him as a cousin?
13 A. I said he was a relative but a distant one.
14 Q. And he was the chief of police in Decani, was he?
15 A. No. He was komandir, the commander.
16 Q. Was he involved in the 24th of March incident?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Can I come on to the description that you've given of the men
19 that you saw? You say, first of all, you were stopped in your vehicles
20 by a group of four or five men, two of whom were in uniform, and two or
21 three in civilian clothes; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And the uniforms didn't match. One was a NATO uniform and one,
24 you said, was a black uniform with red stripes and spots; is that
1 A. Right. The first one was a NATO uniform, and the other one was
2 red and black, coffee colour, with some dots on it.
3 Q. Had you ever seen that uniform anywhere before?
4 A. I had seen a NATO uniform before. I had not seen the other one,
6 Q. You said after you were initially stopped, a larger group of
7 other men came out. Can you remind us of the number, approximately?
8 A. They were all hiding in the ditches. There were 50 or 60 of them
9 when they all emerged from where they had been hiding. I was frightened.
10 I didn't really count them.
11 Q. Some of them, you said, were in uniform, some of them not; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The majority of them in civilian clothes?
15 A. Yes, and armed.
16 Q. And some of them, I think, had partial uniforms. In other words,
17 they were wearing civilian clothes perhaps with a pair of fatigue
18 trousers or a camouflage jacket; is that right?
19 A. Yes, with KLA insignia.
20 Q. Now, you were there at the Pozhare crossroads for, in total, I
21 think, half an hour or thereabouts; is that correct?
22 A. Approximately.
23 Q. And I think you said yesterday there were 40 of them debating
24 what was going to happen, and who would take you to Gllogjan, and so
25 forth; is that right?
1 A. Correct. I didn't say there were exactly 50 or 60. I said
2 roughly 50, 60.
3 Q. But the point I'm making is they were all -- they all had an
4 opinion, is that right, debating amongst themselves, a lot of different
5 opinions being expressed?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And it sounds a pretty chaotic scene you're describing; is that
9 A. Well, they were discussing between them who would go, who would
10 stay, who would stay with us. It was quite normal for them. They seemed
11 quite happy to have captured us and to be taking us to Glodjane.
12 Q. But I'm just putting to you a sentence from the witness statement
13 you made to the Prosecution in January 2002. I don't need you to look at
14 it. But is it right that you couldn't tell who was in charge? I think
15 you said: "I could not ascertain who was actually in charge."
16 A. Correct. I couldn't identify the person in charge. I suppose
17 the person in charge was the one who caught me and captured me. But as
18 for determining it on the basis of rank insignia, no, I didn't.
19 Q. But also no one was making clear decisions. It took half an hour
20 to decide what was going to happen to you, didn't it?
21 A. Sir, I said it was about half an hour. It could have been 20
22 minutes; it could have been 45 minutes. Around half an hour they were
23 debating who would go with us, who would accompany us to Glodjane
25 Q. And were the men in civilian clothes taking part in this
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. I mean, roughly how many people did you see expressing an
5 A. How many? Well, I don't know how many of them expressed an
6 opinion. I know that one of them volunteered to get into the car with
7 us. How many of them expressed an opinion, I really didn't pay
9 Q. You've used the word "debating," Mr. Radosevic. More or less
10 than ten involved in this debate?
11 A. They were all talking at the same time. They were arguing
12 whether they would be taking me to Glodjane or not. I thought myself
13 only about one thing and how -- and that was how to get out of it.
14 Q. No, that's very helpful. They were all arguing amongst
15 themselves; nobody clearly in command. You'd agree with that?
16 A. Well, they were arguing amongst them, and who was the main man
17 among them, I really can't tell you. I can't tell you anything if I'm
18 not sure.
19 Q. I'm not asking you to tell me, I'm asking you to describe what
20 you saw. And you've been involved in the police, and so you know how an
21 organisation functions when people have to make decisions if it's
22 properly organised and there's a leadership structure. You know how
23 decisions are taken. But what you're describing for us is a rather
24 different and rather more chaotic picture. Would you agree?
25 A. I'm trying to tell you that I didn't see who the main person was.
1 There were some in uniform, some in civilian clothes, but they were all
2 armed. At that time, I wasn't even trying to establish who the person in
3 charge was. I wasn't interested. The only thing that I was interested
4 in was to get myself, my mother, and my friend out of there. It was not
5 my purpose at the time to establish who the person in charge was.
6 Q. And there was no communication device? You said you didn't see
7 any -- yesterday, when you gave evidence, you didn't see anybody using a
8 communication device, a telephone or a walkie-talkie or anything like
9 that? That's what I think you said yesterday.
10 A. Correct. I didn't notice.
11 Q. So these people weren't receiving instructions from anywhere
13 A. I didn't see.
14 Q. And then I think on the route towards Gllogjan, you said in your
15 witness statement - again, I don't ask you to turn it up unless we need
16 to - you describe the people you saw along the way as "large numbers of
17 armed men dressed and armed in the haphazard fashion I have described.
18 They were milling around but didn't seem to be moving in any particular
19 direction." Is that a fair description of what you saw?
20 A. It is.
21 Q. But you saw them digging trenches, I think you said, at least at
22 one intersection; is that right?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Again, based on your experience, a trench like that is a
25 defensive position, is it not? It's a means of preventing Serb forces or
1 police from entering the area?
2 A. They were probably doing something for a purpose. Whether it was
3 for the police or something else, I don't know.
4 Q. And, overall, you've described people raising fists and chanting,
5 and I think, if I've added it up correctly, you're talking about having
6 seen in total more than 150 people?
7 A. Yes, from Pozare to Rznic.
8 Q. Can you give us some idea of how the number of men you saw would
9 relate to the number of Albanian homes in the areas you're describing?
10 Are we looking at half the male adult Albanian population out on the
11 streets of those villages, or more than half, or less than half?
12 A. I don't know. I can't answer that question. I don't know how
13 many males lived in Pozare village or in Iluk. I really can't answer
14 that question.
15 Q. But it must have been a pretty large section, mustn't it, of the
16 Albanian male population of those villages that you say you saw?
17 A. Well, there were a lot of Albanians. I can't say otherwise. I
18 just can't say whether they were all carrying rifles or not. I can tell
19 you only about that day and what I saw from Pozare to Glodjane and from
20 Dasinovac to Decani. I'm talking about that day. Whether they carried
21 arms before that or after that, I really don't know.
22 Q. But they were all carrying arms on that day; is that right?
23 A. That group that I saw, yes.
24 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions about what happened when the
25 car broke down in a moment or two, but I just want to carry on asking you
1 a little bit more about how these people seemed to you to be behaving,
2 how they seemed to be organised, at various stages in your account.
3 When the car broke down, first of all, I think you described
4 again a situation where people were, amongst themselves, disagreeing
5 about what was going to happen with you; is that right?
6 A. Where, in Glodjane village, when we arrived, or in Pozare
8 Q. Yes, in Gllogjan.
9 A. When we arrived at Glodjane, when the car broke down, when that
10 group that I told you about came, those who had come with us from Pozare
11 returned to Pozare. They didn't talk to us anymore. But they looked
13 Q. And the place where the car broke down, I mean, that's where all
14 of the incidents that you've described taking place in Gllogjan happened,
15 just where the car had happened to break down; is that right?
16 A. Yes. It's some 200 or 300 metres outside of Glodjane. I believe
17 it's still within the area of Glodjane.
18 Q. It's on the road approaching Gllogjan, 200 to 300 metres outside,
19 on the opposite side of Gllogjan from where your friends, the
20 Stojanovics, lived; is that correct?
21 A. Correct. From Rznici to Glodjane looking -- it could have been
22 500 metres, not necessarily 300. I didn't measure it.
23 Q. Five-hundred metres outside Gllogjan?
24 Sorry, I didn't get an answer to that, Mr. Radosevic. By "500
25 metres," you mean 500 metres outside of Gllogjan, it could have been?
1 A. From Rznic to Glodjane, the entrance to Glodjane, that's about
2 500 metres, if you move from Rznic to Glodjane.
3 Q. Well, we'll look at the distances on the map, but if that's
4 right, then what you're saying is you were, in fact, stopped nearer to
5 Irzniq than to Gllogjan; is that correct? You've told us 2 to 300
6 metres, roughly halfway, or, if anything, nearer to Irzniq than Gllogjan?
7 Is that right?
8 A. Well, I can't give you the exact number of kilometres, but I'm
9 sure that it's 2 kilometres from Rznic at the very entrance to Glodjane.
10 If that's Glodjane, on the basis of the number of times that I actually
11 travelled down that route, that would be Glodjane.
12 Q. But in any event, it's the opposite side, I think you can
13 confirm, of Gllogjan, the opposite road to the road that leads out to the
14 Stojanovics' house?
15 A. As far as I know, that road leads from Rznic to the Stojanovics'
16 place. Maybe there is another road, too.
17 Q. All right.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I'm looking at the clock. Could you
19 find a suitable moment, convenient moment, within the next couple of
21 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
22 Q. The building that you and Novak Stijovic were taken into, putting
23 it shortly, just happened to be the nearest building to where the car
24 broke down, didn't it?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And if I can just, before we take a break, complete this topic
2 that I'm asking you some questions about. I want to move to a little
3 later stage in the account that you've given us when you say that you had
4 been to see your father, you had collected a gun, and you had -- you then
5 were stopped by three men, one of whom you knew as Caus. Yes? Do you
6 remember that point in the account?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Was Caus in uniform when you met him?
9 A. As far as I can remember, he was not wearing a uniform.
10 Q. Were the other two men, or either of them, wearing a uniform, the
11 two who were with him when they stopped you?
12 A. There in the village of Bandera, at the intersection, the three
13 of them were not wearing uniforms.
14 Q. Were they armed, as far as you could see?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And did they stop you, as in pointed their guns at you and
17 required to stop, as it happened in Pozhare?
18 A. Yes. The two of them pointed their rifles at me, and Caus waved
19 at me to stop.
20 Q. And you've told us that after that, you went with him back to
21 Pozhare, and that whilst you were there, there was again confusion, with
22 half of the people who you'd seen before at the Pozhare crossroads saying
23 you should be allowed to continue and half of them saying you shouldn't;
24 is that right?
25 A. Yes. Caus insisted that I should be allowed to go and fetch the
1 other rifle.
2 Q. Yes, but you said, of the people at Pozhare, who were the same
3 people who had stopped you earlier, you told us, of that group, half of
4 them wanted to let you carry on and the other half wanted to stop you.
5 Do you remember saying that?
6 A. They had -- they argued. Some wanted to take me to Glodjane with
7 the rifle that I had surrendered and the others insisted, with Caus at
8 their head, that I should go to Decani to get the other rifle. And Caus,
9 I handed him the rifle, and I don't know what happened with the rifle,
10 whether he kept it for himself or what.
11 Q. We'll come to that after the break. But the short point I want
12 to put to you is that, in all of these engagements where you were not
13 able to identify anybody in command, the picture that you're painting for
14 us - and it may well be -- I'm not challenging it, I'm just asking you to
15 confirm it - the picture that you're painting for us is of chaotic and
16 disorganised groups of local villagers with weapons in their hands, with
17 no proper system of command or control; some in uniforms and some
18 without. Is that fair?
19 A. Well, you know how it is. I can't tell you what I didn't see.
20 If I had seen somebody who was in command, who said, Attention, go left,
21 go right, I don't know, maybe there was a commander there, but they were
22 arguing amongst themselves. I can't really tell you now whether there
23 was anyone in charge there or anyone responsible.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Would that be a convenient moment?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that would be a convenient moment.
1 May I ask the usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.
2 [The witness stands down]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, the Chamber staff received a copy of
4 the information you received from the Mapping Unit. You said the map you
5 used is 1:100.000. The Mapping Unit informed you that the original scale
6 of the map, which was then either reduced or enlarged, was 1:100.000, so
7 it's of no use to tell us what the original map was. That was exactly
8 the point I raised.
9 Therefore, the information you gave is not correct. Just for
10 your information, the actual scale of the map, due to enlarging, is
11 approximately 1:60.000, if that would assist you, and that's fully in
12 accordance with the scale you will find on the satellite photo-map which
13 has been produced in the other binder. You're invited to be more precise
14 in your answers next time.
15 MR. RE: Your Honour, if I can very briefly address you on that,
16 the information should not have gone to the Court in the manner in which
17 it did. What Mr. Dutertre said before is that we will provide the
18 Chamber tomorrow with a map which has a scale written on the side and on
19 the bottom of it. I'm getting the Mapping Unit to provide another map --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre said the following: "The map we have
21 been using all the time," and he was referring to P10, P11, and P12, "is
22 1:100.000, and that is the information that was communicated to me by the
23 investigators through the Map Unit." The message which was sent by the
24 Mapping Unit was that this is a product of pasting cut-outs of original
25 maps, which were 1:100.000, and due to enlarging and reducing, that it's
1 not 1:100.000 anymore.
2 So what's the use of telling us that it is 1:100.000 -- I mean,
3 apart from you provide another map tomorrow. I didn't ask for another
4 map. I just wanted to know what the scale is. I'm not seeking more
5 paper. What I'm seeking is correct information on a question I put to
6 Mr. Dutertre.
7 MR. RE: Your Honour, we will provide the correct information.
8 Would it not assist the Trial Chamber if we were to provide a map in
9 e-court which has the scale down the sides and -- the scale as in 1
10 kilometre, 2 kilometres, 3 kilometres, so that you can basically see --
11 JUDGE ORIE: You've done so already by --
12 MR. RE: That's what I want to do. I want to get that before the
13 Trial Chamber.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think you did that already by the - could I call
15 it - the Google map, the photograph, satellite photograph. There is a
16 scale on that.
17 MR. RE: But it's not the one we're showing. For example, the
18 map Mr. Dutertre showed this witness does not the scale 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
19 kilometres on the bottom of it. I understand Your Honour's concern. If
20 we get the same map and get the Mapping Unit to put the scale down the
21 sides and on the bottom, everyone will be able to see and do their own
22 calculation as the map is displayed, rather than working out whether
23 it's 1:100.000 or 50.000 or 25, and trying to do that one. We will have
24 the scale underneath in kilometres.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The Mapping Unit informed you and Mr. Dutertre
1 already that the grid on the map is still 1 kilometre. Whether you
2 enlarge it or whether you reduce it, the grid will be enlarged and
3 reduced to it as well. So there's no need. As a matter of fact, we have
4 already with this information from the Mapping Unit, we have already the
5 information we need, is that -- and I checked that, that one grid, one
6 square on the map, is one square kilometre. Whether you enlarge it,
7 whether you reduce it, that's the scale. So we have it already on it.
8 So there's no need to produce more paperwork, because, as the Mapping
9 Unit has informed you, it's there.
10 But the information was not correct. The information is that due
11 to reducing and resizing, you couldn't make this a map of 1:100.000
12 anymore, but that the grid still, although it's not anymore 1 centimetre,
13 which it was on the original map, that any square on this map, map number
14 7, represents 1 square kilometre. So we have everything we need.
15 MR. RE: I'm trying to be of assistance. I'm not privy to the
16 information the Mapping Unit provided apparently during the session. I
17 haven't seen it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. RE: I was trying to assist.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, I'm just saying something about
21 Mr. Dutertre telling us that the map he used was 1:100.000, which it was
22 not. We'll adjourn --
23 MR. RE: I don't think he was aware of that when he said it. I
24 think the information came after he said that. An e-mail came to
25 Mr. Smith, our case manager, during the session.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- let me see whether I can -- I can
2 tell you, at least according to my information, the OTP, Mr. Smith ....
3 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
4 JUDGE ORIE: According to my information, Mr. Smith was informed
5 of the following: Referring to map 7 and map C in the e-court binder,
6 they were both taken from a montage of the four map sheets listed in the
7 bottom left corner. The original, bold, "Scale of that map was
8 1:100.000. One centimetre on the map is 1 kilometre on the ground.
9 There is a square-centimetre grid on that map, purple colour,
10 representing a square kilometre in reality. The cut-out areas of this
11 montage in the binder have been reduced or enlarged, as required, for map
12 6 and map 7, but so far has the square-centimetre grid. Measuring one of
13 those squares is not exactly 1 centimetre anymore, but it still
14 represents a square kilometre in reality."
15 That's the information as it was conveyed to me, which was sent
16 to the OTP, which clearly says the map used is not 1:100.000 anymore due
17 to enlarging. If it's not correct, then please tell me who misinformed
18 me. I read from what I understood to be the message to the OTP.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not spend any further time on the matter. The
21 matter has been -- but I'm a bit allergic for receiving wrong
22 information, and the wrong information was that the map used was
23 1:100.000. Whatever was indicated as would follow, that information was
25 Mr. Dutertre, you agree?
1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I gave you the
2 information that I read in an e-mail that I received. I was not able to
3 check whether the information was accurate or not. What I did was just
4 give this information to you. I'm extremely sorry if this is -- if there
5 is -- if the information is inconsistent. I'm extremely sorry for the
6 time we have been spending on this matter.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber would appreciate to receive a
8 copy, if the Defence does not object, to the e-mail you received, because
9 the issue is whether you relayed information you received incorrectly - I
10 blamed you for that, and if I'm wrong I have to correct that - or that
11 you misinterpreted the information and due to such a mistake, you
12 misinformed the Chamber. I would like to know in order to be in a
13 position to apologise if I unjustified -- unjustly blamed you for passing
14 wrong information.
15 So if you would be so kind to provide it to the Chamber during
16 the break, then I will be able to see whether I have to apologise to you.
17 We stand adjourned until ten minutes past 1.00.
18 --- Recess taken at 12.47 p.m.
19 [The witness takes the stand]
20 --- On resuming at 1.14 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, I didn't receive the information I
22 asked for, but I'm not going to spend any more time on it in court at
23 this very moment.
24 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.
25 MR. EMMERSON:
1 Q. Mr. Radosevic, you described the assaults that took place in the
2 roadside outside Gllogjan already. I just want to ask you this: From
3 the description that you've given, it sounds as though Novak Stijovic was
4 assaulted first; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you said it wasn't until you lost control of yourself and
7 physically intervened that anybody tried to assault you; is that right?
8 A. Well, at that moment they didn't start to beat me up until he
9 fell down, and then I protected him by turning my back to them, to
10 prevent them from inflicting any more blows to his head and to his body.
11 Q. When the first blow was struck to Novak Stijovic, where was he in
12 relation to you? How far away from him were you?
13 A. About a metre, 1 metre. Approximately 1 metre.
14 Q. Because you've told us that nobody hurt your mother and that
15 nobody tried to hurt you until you physically intervened; is that right?
16 A. Sir, I did not physically intervene in the sense of wanting to
17 beat them, to fight with them. I simply couldn't watch them beat my
18 friend. Maybe they wanted to beat me, too, or just him, I don't know. I
19 merely tried to protect him, and then they started beating me. They
20 couldn't beat him anymore because I had put my back to protect him. I
21 turned my back to them so that they couldn't beat him anymore, and then
22 they started beating me.
23 Q. I understand that. Did you see or hear any reason why Novak
24 Stijovic might have been singled out from amongst the three of you?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Can I ask you this: I'm going to read to you a passage from the
2 witness statement that you made in this case on the 26th of January,
3 2002. I'm not going to ask for it to be brought up unless anybody wants
4 it, but for the record, it's on page 6 and is the fifth full paragraph.
5 You said that whilst you were being questioned and struck, you said this:
6 "They would ask me questions about where my weapon was, who was the
7 police commander in Decani, and who had been shooting at them."
8 I'll read that to you again: "They would ask me questions about
9 where my weapon was, who was the police commander in Decani, and who had
10 been shooting at them."
11 Now, when they were asking you -- first of all, do you remember
12 saying that to the Prosecution investigators?
13 A. Well, I did say that they had beaten me up. I told them about
14 the numbers. I remember saying that they beat me up in order to make me
15 tell them who had the weapons, who was -- where the police was, and
16 things like that. That's what I remember.
17 Q. The passage I've just put to you I've read from a witness
18 statement that you've signed, Mr. Radosevic, after you told us you'd been
19 interviewed by the Prosecution. This is the statement you've said is the
20 accurate version of events. Do you understand?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Yes. Well, when you were being asked "who had been shooting at
23 them," what did you understand that to be a reference to?
24 A. Could you please clarify? What do you mean, who had shot at
1 Q. You told the Prosecution that you were being asked questions, and
2 that one of the questions that you were being asked by the men in the
3 street was "who had been shooting at them." You were being asked to tell
4 them who it was had been shooting at them, and I'm asking you, please, to
5 tell us what was meant? What you understood by that remark or that
7 A. Well, they probably asked -- were asking about this incident that
8 you referred to when this man --
9 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't get the name.
10 A. -- was killed. I don't know why else. I don't know whether it
11 was really the police or not. They were saying that it was the police.
12 MR. EMMERSON:
13 Q. So they were saying to you that the police, on the 24th of March,
14 had been shooting at and killing people in Gllogjan. Is that what they
15 were saying?
16 A. [No interpretation].
17 Q. From the answer you've just given us, do I understand that they
18 were asking you who had been responsible for shooting and killing
19 civilians in Gllogjan on the 24th of March? Is that what you're saying?
20 A. I really don't know who was responsible for the 24th of April.
21 Could this be clarified, perhaps?
22 Q. I'm not asking you who was responsible; I'm asking you about
23 something you yourself told the Prosecution in a statement that you
24 signed about this case. And you told them that you were being asked by
25 the men who were beating you in the street who it was had been shooting
1 at them, and you have told us that you thought they were referring to the
2 incident on the 24th of March. And I am asking you: Were they asking
3 you about who was responsible for shooting civilians on the 24th of
5 A. Yes. They asked me who was in the police. They were asking me
6 such questions.
7 Q. And they were also asking you, Who was the police commander in
8 Decani, weren't they? Because that's what you told the Prosecution.
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. And you knew who the police commander in Decani was, I suggest,
11 Mr. Radosevic, because it was your cousin Zoran Nikic; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. He was your cousin, wasn't he?
14 A. He is a distant relative. He's not a close relative.
15 Q. Simple -- it's a simple --
16 A. He is not a cousin.
17 Q. He is not a cousin. You're sure about that?
18 A. He is a relative, but he's a distant relative. He's not a close
19 relative; he's a distant relative.
20 Q. No, Mr. Radosevic, let's be specific. You've just told us he's
21 not a cousin, all right? Can we be clear about that? Are you trying to
22 conceal from this tribunal the nature of your relationship with the Decan
23 police forces?
24 A. No, sir. I've already explained to the Judges that we are
25 related, but he is my distant relative. He is not a cousin. He -- we
1 are distantly related. He is not a close relative of mine.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, we could go on with this for ages.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Could we not try to find out what the relationship
5 is, so in a more positive way. You say he's not a cousin. I do
6 understand a cousin to be a child of one of your uncles or aunts. Do we
7 agree that we would call such a person a cousin, or am I mixing up
8 nephews and cousins at this moment?
9 MR. EMMERSON: No, that's correct.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, that's correct.
11 Is he a child of one of your uncles or aunts; that is, a brother
12 or sister of your father or your mother?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he is not.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us what he, then, is, if you say --
15 do you have the same grandfathers? Could you describe to us if you say
16 he is a relative but not a close relative, could you -- if you know,
17 could you tell us what exactly your family relationship is?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, this is from the
19 time when they were in Montenegro. So when brothers parted ways, that
20 may have been 200 years ago. Nikics and Radosevics were related at one
21 very distant point in time, but we are not related now. I have all due
22 respect for him, but he is not a close relative. What I consider to be a
23 close relative is somebody who is my uncle or my aunt or their children.
24 That would be the kind of relation that I consider to be close.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you said a common ancestor, we should look
1 for such a common ancestor more than a hundred years ago; is that
2 correctly understood? That would be, most likely, great, great,
3 great-grandfather, something like that. Is that it?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, something like that. They
5 parted ways or the family divided.
6 JUDGE ORIE: You have no common grandfather?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not even the great-grandfather.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That seems to clarify the issue.
9 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Could we please look at Defence document
12 identification 148 - is that a 2? - 1484. I'm sorry, I do apologise,
13 1507. I've given you the wrong reference. It should be 1507.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number D5,
16 marked for identification.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 MR. EMMERSON: And could we go, please, to the fourth page, page
19 4 of 7, paragraph 18.
20 Q. This is a passage in a statement where you're describing,
21 Mr. Radosevic, the finding of your father's remains.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Now, I don't know if we can find the equivalent
23 paragraph in the Serbian translation. We don't have the Serbian
25 Q. Let me read to you -- there is an Albanian translation, but
1 perhaps it's simpler if I read it to you and have it translated.
2 You said: "I was present when the bodies of Slobodan Milosevic
3 and Milos Radunovic were located in by police in September 1998. I was
4 with Zoran Nikic, my cousin."
5 I just need to understand from you, Mr. Radosevic, why it is that
6 in here and in notes of an interview you had with the Prosecution on the
7 7th of March, you've chosen to refer to Mr. Nikic as your cousin.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'd very much like to have the original
9 language here, because this Chamber is aware of problems that have arisen
10 on previous occasions on this kind of matters.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, if there is an Albanian original --
13 MR. EMMERSON: This was, I think, read over to the witness in
14 Serbian before being signed; in other words, it was --
15 JUDGE ORIE: It complicates it even more.
16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we try to go back to the most original
18 language we have, at least the language that --
19 MR. EMMERSON: Our belief, and we'll obviously check it, is that
20 this statement was recorded in English and read over to the witness in
21 Serbian, and it's been translated into Albanian for the purposes of the
22 proceedings. So this would be the closest to the original.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, although I do not expect the witness to have
24 given the interview in English; so therefore then we have two or three
25 changes of translation: First to get it on paper and then later to have
1 it --
2 MR. EMMERSON: Read over.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- read over and also have it translated.
4 Therefore --
5 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I think if I understood Your Honour
6 correctly, this is a statement where an interview is conducted between an
7 English speaker and this witness through an interpreter.
8 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that -- unless the witness would speak
9 fluent English --
10 MR. EMMERSON: And then recorded in English and read over to the
11 witness by the interpreter in Serbian.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Most likely, yes.
13 MR. EMMERSON: That is our understanding, and then signed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Well, proceed as you wish, but at the
15 same time, I would mind you to be aware of possible explanations other
16 than you might elicit -- want to elicit from the witness.
17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I understand.
18 Q. Mr. Radosevic, you were also, I think, interviewed by
19 Mr. Dutertre, who sits on the opposite side of the court, on the 7th of
20 March about your statement via videolink, and we have a record of that
21 interview, and commenting on the paragraph I've just shown you, the
22 record reads: "My cousin Zoran Nikic, chief of police in Decani, was
23 informed that the bodies were located ..."
24 Now, again, I just want to give you an opportunity to be clear.
25 Do you refer, when you are describing Zoran Nikic, do you refer to him as
1 your cousin? Because that's what Mr. Dutertre has recorded.
2 A. Well, we got on well together, but that's a different topic.
3 Zoran Nikic was -- he told me that my father had been found, so the
4 information came from him or from the chief or from the deputy commander.
5 No rank and file police officer could have told me that they had found my
6 father and where they had found him.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I'd like to put one question.
8 When you spoke to those who interviewed you and when you
9 described your relationship with Mr. Nikic, do you remember what word you
10 used to express what your family relationship, or your relationship, with
11 Mr. Nikic was? Do you remember the word you used in your own language?
12 Could you just give that word, if you remember?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They asked me, Who is he to you? I
14 said, Relative, friend; "relative" meaning distant relative. We have a
15 relationship of mutual respect from way back, but I don't understand why
16 counsel is grilling me on this point and splitting hairs.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask the interpreters, perhaps. The word the
18 witness used, is that a word which would make it possible to understand
19 it as a wider relationship rather than a close relationship, such as a
20 cousin? I'm listening to the English channel, so if perhaps the English
21 interpreter could --
22 THE INTERPRETER: "Relative" is a very general word and that's
23 the word that the witness used, "rodzak," meaning literally relative. He
24 doesn't specify any kind of relationship close or distant.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would it be -- and I am asking you more or
1 less now as experts, would it be imaginable that if someone uses this
2 word that in a -- well, let's say, a quick translation, it could be
3 interpreted as "cousin"? Is that something you could imagine?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honour, with all due respect, we should
5 not be answering questions of this kind. There are all sorts of
6 interpretations throughout the former Yugoslavia. Maybe somewhere.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I fully respect that you consider yourself not
8 to be in a position to answer this question. Perhaps I should not have
9 asked it.
10 Mr. Emmerson, you may --
11 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, this obviously raises, again, the
12 question of -- this was a videolinked proofing session. This raises,
13 again, the question of video-recordings and of the position of
14 Mr. Dutertre in respect of his notes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not go over the terrain of Mr. Guy-Smith.
16 Yes, please proceed.
17 MR. EMMERSON:
18 Q. Let's move on to another topic, Mr. Radosevic. Can I ask you
19 this: You told these men that neither you nor Novak had a gun but that
20 your fathers had hunting rifles; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And was that the truth, that neither of you had a gun?
23 A. Correct, that I didn't have a gun.
24 Q. And Novak?
25 A. As far as I remember, no, he didn't.
1 Q. Because when you went back after you'd visited your father and
2 were stopped at the crossroads in Pozhare for a second time, you told us
3 that you told them that you were going to collect Novak's semi-automatic.
4 Now, first of all, was it a semi-automatic, as you understood it, that
5 you were going to collect?
6 A. I had to find a pretext, and I used the pretext of going to get
7 the automatic rifle to get out of there. I had a hunting rifle, in
8 actual fact, but I had to tell lies to get out of that situation. So
9 what I said was I was going to get that hunting rifle -- I mean, if I
10 said I had intended to go and get a hunting rifle, maybe he wouldn't have
11 let me go.
12 Q. So you -- the truth was you were going to get Novak's father's
13 hunting rifle, but you told them it was a semi-automatic; is that the
15 A. Yes. I mentioned I took that carbine. My father told me, If you
16 can, you run to Decani; you don't go back to Glodjane. So I told those
17 people in Pozare, I told Caus, I'm going to get another rifle. One man
18 said, No, you can't go; another one asked me, Which rifle are you going
19 to get? I said, An automatic rifle. So I was trying everything to get
20 out of there. I could have easily said I was going to get a cannon.
21 Q. I understand that. So the position is you were lying to the men
22 at the crossroads, I understand that, and I understand the reasons that
23 you've given for it. Were you going to Decan to get Novak's father's
24 hunting rifle?
25 A. I went to Decani. When they let me go, I went to the police
1 station to report what had happened to me, and from there they took me to
2 the health centre to be bandaged.
3 Q. Where did Novak's father live?
4 A. At Bandera, near Ljubarda. I don't know whether it's officially
5 Bandera or Ljubarda. I think that officially it's Bandera.
6 Q. So there was no gun or weapon belonging to that family in Decan?
7 A. Which family?
8 Q. The Stijovic family, either father or son. There was no gun in
10 A. I dropped by that house, but there was nobody there. Whether the
11 rifle was at Bandera or in Decani, I really don't know. Three-hundred
12 metres on, I was stopped by Caus ...
13 Q. So you dropped by the Bandera house, did you, in -- the
14 Stijovics' house in Bandera, did you?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you told -- have you ever told anybody that before,
17 Mr. Radosevic?
18 A. I can't remember.
19 Q. And there was nobody there?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. What was your intention in going there?
22 A. I wanted to find somebody to get hold of another rifle that would
23 enable me to get my mother and Novak out.
24 Q. So you were going to the house to get Novak's father's rifle; is
25 that right?
1 A. Yes. It was on my way to my house, on my way to Decani.
2 Q. Sorry, let's just be clear. When did you go to Bandera? Was it
3 before or after you'd been to your father?
4 A. When I got the rifle from my father, I continued to Decani.
5 Q. When you got the rifle from your father, you went to the Pozhare
6 crossroads with Caus, didn't you?
7 A. It's not Pozare, it's Bandera, some 300 metres away. It was the
8 name of the village, Bandera. From there, Caus and I got into a car,
9 took that rifle from my house and went to Pozare.
10 Q. So it was at the time that you were stopped by Caus that you went
11 to the house of the Stijovics, was it?
12 A. No, sir. Before Caus stopped me, before that, I stopped at the
13 Stijovic house. There was nobody there. And from there I went to
14 Pozare, and then Caus stopped me at the intersection leading to Gornji
15 and Donji Ratis and to Ljubarda on another side.
16 Q. I see.
17 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I see the time. I have a little more
18 for this witness, and I think, unless I misread the Court, it's probably
19 the appropriate moment to break.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, Mr. Emmerson, just for my
21 understanding. I have, of course, carefully looked at the map and to the
22 routes the witness has marked as the routes he took. I -- from my
23 recollection, he said how he went from Glodjane to Dasinovac. That's
24 where, from what I understand, his father was. And then the witness
25 indicated how he went from Dasinovac to Decani. And on the map I see,
1 but please correct me when I'm wrong, that the last -- whether it's a
2 village or not is another matter, but the last name before Pozare is
3 Bandera, which is right on the route from -- because he took the
4 southerly road and not the northerly road from Dasinovac to Pozare. Is
5 that a correct understanding of ...
6 MR. EMMERSON: I need to check the markings because I haven't got
7 a copy of the --
8 JUDGE ORIE: No, you have them as well --
9 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour is quite right.
10 JUDGE ORIE: But I remember that he took the southerly -- the
11 black road rather than the yellow road and then off.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's what's clear on my map.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Bandera is on route between Dashinoc and
15 Pozhare via the southern road.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. EMMERSON: The point I was asking the witness about was the
18 fact that he's never, as far as we're aware at least, mentioned this
19 event at any point in any of his --
20 JUDGE ORIE: I think you went a bit farther than asking him
21 whether he mentioned it ever. You also said from Pozare, did you then go
22 to where it is -- seems to be the road --
23 MR. EMMERSON: Oh, I see. Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That having been clarified, before we adjourn,
25 I've got one tiny little question. I understand that the communication
1 between Mapping Unit, OTP, Registry, and Chambers concerning the map
2 information have caused some concern or may even have upset a bit. The
3 Defence -- if we would pay further attention to it, the Defence is
4 invited to attend whatever communication there will be on the matter, but
5 if it's limited to that, are you interested to attend, or do you say,
6 because the Chamber usually does not engage in any conversations with
7 parties or at least without full transparency, is this a matter you'd
8 like to be fully informed of? We're limited to communications and who
9 took what step at what time and not any substance.
10 MR. EMMERSON: For my part, I am entirely content to leave it in
11 Your Honours' hands. If there is information which emerges which may in
12 any way be relevant to the Defence -- -
13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't expect that, of course --
14 MR. EMMERSON: -- then I'm content for Your Honour to exercise
15 that judgement.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm in the exact same position, yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
19 MR. HARVEY: Wouldn't surprise Your Honours to hear that I'm in
20 the same position, too.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn until tomorrow at 9.00, same
22 courtroom --
23 Before I finally do, Mr. Guy-Smith, it seems that you -- if
24 there's anything you'd like to raise, if you can wait until tomorrow
25 morning, we'd prefer that, because of course another Chamber is -- if
1 not, you're at least encouraged next time to say it a bit in advance
2 before we adjourn.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I raised it at the beginning of today's
4 proceedings and it was suggested it be dealt with at the break. I'll
5 raise it tomorrow. It deals with UNMIK issues, once again.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I was informed about that, and we decided that
7 we will ask for an update tomorrow.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 So, therefore, I said to courtroom II tomorrow morning, 9.00.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
12 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 14th day of
13 March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.