1 Wednesday, 21 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 I'd like to go into private session for a moment.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 1559-1566 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
8 [The witness entered court]
9 WITNESS: MILOICA VLAHOVIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Vlahovic.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to remind you that you're still bound by
14 the solemn declaration that you've given at the beginning of your
15 testimony. And Mr. Dutertre will now continue his examination-in-chief.
16 [Interpretation] Mr. Dutertre, the floor is yours.
17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Examination by Mr. Dutertre: [Continued]
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Vlahovic, good afternoon. Yesterday, you
20 spoke about the tensions between the Serb population and the Albanian
21 population in the area of Gornji Ratis in the years preceding the
22 conflict. You talked about the Serb population in the area, the fact
23 that Serbs left the area and you said why. Then you spoke about specific
24 incidents in which Serb people were made victims at the end of 1998, and
25 then you started telling us about what happened to your parents.
1 You said that on the Sunday you went to Sremska Kamenica to see
2 your uncle who was in hospital, and if I'm correct, this was the 19th of
3 April 1998. Then you said you returned to Gornji Ratis on the 20th, and
4 that you spent the night of the 20th at your parents' in the house at
5 Gornji Ratis, which means the night between the Monday, 20th, to the
6 Tuesday, 21st. And then you said that you saw your parents for the last
7 time on the 21st of April, 1998, this Tuesday, in Gornji Ratis.
8 Yesterday, before we wrapped up, I had started a few questions
9 which related to a few answers that you provided during your testimony.
10 I'd like to begin from this starting point again.
11 My first question will be as follows: You said that during the
12 month of April, Serbs had left the area and only returned to feed their
13 cattle. You explained that they didn't feel safe. And you also said
14 that shooting could be heard from Glodjane. And at the very beginning of
15 your testimony yesterday, on page 1546 of the transcript, line 15, you
16 said - and I'm going to refer to the English version of the transcript,
17 of course - you indicated that there was a training camp in Glodjane, and
18 that in the afternoon automatic rifles could often be heard.
19 My first question is as follows: From Albanian into English and
20 from English into French, the term you used, which in English was
21 "training camp," and I think I heard something else in French, may not
22 have been translated as it should have. Now, could you please tell us
23 what was in Glodjane? Was it a shooting area? Was it another term that
24 you wanted to use to tell us what exactly was in Glodjane?
25 A. At the time what people were saying in Glodjane was that this was
1 a training ground. At the time a policeman named Miodrag Otovic was
2 killed in Glodjane, and Momo Stijovic was wounded there as well. It was
3 late in the afternoon. Then early in the evening, you could hear sounds
4 of shooting at Ratishe, automatic weapons firing as well. They were
5 probably doing some target practice or something of the sort.
6 Q. By "training camp," you're talking or you mean a military
7 training area; is that right?
8 A. That's what I think, but I didn't see it myself.
9 Q. Very well.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Who was the policeman who was killed in Glodjane?
11 Could you repeat the name?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sure I can. Miodrag Otovic. He
13 worked at the Rznic police station. I think he's from Ciga, Pec
14 municipality, but I'm not sure.
15 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to rise to my feet.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. EMMERSON: But just looking at line 14, the witness -- the
18 witness's answer is: "At that time what people were saying in Glodjane
19 was that this was a training ground." Could Mr. Dutertre simply clarify
20 which people were saying that to this witness?
21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes. If I had time to ask
22 questions, I could be more specific.
23 Q. First of all, I would like to ask something about the shooting,
24 the noise that you -- that was heard from Glodjane. Did you hear it
1 A. Yes. I personally heard this. This started before April. Maybe
2 even very early in 1998. And this sort of thing can be heard on a daily
3 basis from then on. Up until that time, it had been only a sporadic
5 Q. You already answered my next two questions about the beginning of
6 the shooting and how often they could be heard.
7 Now, coming to the question suggested by the Defence, which I had
8 planned anyway. How did you know there was a training ground or a
9 training camp in Glodjane?
10 A. The policeman from Irzniq, Miodrag Otovic, and Slobodan
11 Prascevic, for as long as he was the commander, he had already left for
12 Prascevici earlier.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's notes: Could both the witness's
14 microphones please be switched on. We can barely hear him.
15 And for the interpreters, please, could the second microphone be
16 switched on as well. We can't hear the witness very well.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, would you please come and sit a bit closer
18 to the microphone because the interpreters have some difficulties in
19 hearing you.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Could you please repeat the answer you provided to my last
23 question, Witness?
24 A. I heard this also from Slobodan Prascevic, from Miodrag Otovic,
25 and Drasko Vukicevic, who was then the commander of the police station at
2 Q. When did they give you this information?
3 A. Yes, it was then. Drasko Vukicevic.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We didn't hear the last
5 part of the witness's answer, which trailed off. Thank you.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Drasko, Drasko Vukicevic, he was
7 the commander at the time back in April of 1998, the commander of the
8 Irzniq police station.
9 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
10 Q. And is that when he gave you this information?
11 A. People used to say the same thing earlier on, but this was the
12 first time they said it officially.
13 Q. What do you mean by "people"? You say people used to say the
14 same thing earlier on, but which people?
15 A. People around the village, neighbours.
16 Q. From which village?
17 A. Ratishe, Dasinovac, Ljumbarda, the surrounding villages.
18 Q. Could you give us specific names of people saying those things?
19 A. For example, Ljubica Stojanovic from Dubrava, she was the first
20 to find out about the training ground. Dubrava and Glodjane are two
21 neighbouring villages; they're adjacent.
22 Q. And who else?
23 A. For the most part, all the others, Goja Stijovic; that is,
24 Konstantin Stijovic.
25 Q. Where did Konstantin Stijovic live?
1 A. Ljumbarda.
2 Q. Let's move to something else. Yesterday, at the end of the
3 afternoon, you mentioned the names of all the people who had left the
4 area. You mentioned two women, Darinka and Vukosava. What's the surname
5 of these women?
6 A. I didn't mention them as leaving. They stayed and were later
8 Q. Yes, indeed. That was a slip of the tongue on my part. I
9 mentioned people who stayed, indeed. Darinka and Vukosava, what was the
10 surname of these two women?
11 A. They are sisters. Vukosava was never married; Darinka was.
12 Their last name was Vujosevic, Darinka and Vukosava. However, Darinka's
13 married name was Kovac. Her husband's last name was Kovac, so her name
14 was Darinka Kovac.
15 Q. Did you know them personally?
16 A. Yes, they were our neighbours.
17 Q. In which village did they live?
18 A. In Ratis. This is the border between Kodralija and Ratishe, but
19 they were on the border belonging to Ratis.
20 Q. What do you known about what happened to them? And if you know
21 anything, who told you about it?
22 A. A man named Muhamet from Kodralije told me. I don't know his
23 last name. He worked for the electricity company in Decane. He bought
24 some land in Kodralije close to them. It was in late July that they set
25 fire to their crops and killed them. That's what he told me.
1 Q. Is that something he observed himself? Was he there at the time?
2 A. Probably so. I didn't ask him at the time.
3 Q. When did you have this conversation with him, and where?
4 A. I saw him at Decane. It was late September but I can't be more
6 Q. September 1998?
7 A. Yes, yes, that's right.
8 Q. I'd like to move back to the 21st of April, 1998 in Donji Ratis.
9 Who else was there in your house? Which other family members?
10 A. My sister Nada, her son Ivan, my daughter Novak, myself, and our
11 father and mother. On that day, Milos Radunovic arrived along with his
12 wife Milica and Slobo Radosevic. They all came to our house.
13 Q. Where Milos Radunovic, Slobo Radosevic, and Milica came from?
14 A. All three of them are from Dasinovac.
15 Q. How far is Dasinovac from Gornji Ratis?
16 A. They're neighbouring villages. They have a common border. The
17 distance may be about 1 kilometre.
18 Q. While you were at home on the 21st of April in Gornji Ratis, what
19 did Milos Radunovic and Slobo Radosevic tell you about the situation in
20 their own village, in the village of Dasinovac?
21 A. They said it wasn't safe in Dasinovac but they had not harmed
22 anyone, and there was, as a consequence, no reason for them to leave
23 their houses because there was nothing for them to fear.
24 Q. What did they tell you about the other Serbs living in Dasinovac?
25 A. Milos specifically told me that he had been to see Milojka
1 Markovic who also lived in Dasinovac with her two sons and her two
2 neighbours, Zeljko and Veljko Dasic. They, too, had said the same thing,
3 that they wouldn't leave unless they were forced to leave or were driven
4 out by someone.
5 Q. You were there while this conversation took place?
6 A. Yes, I was at home at the time.
7 Q. When did you see Slobo Radosevic and Milos Radunovic for the last
9 A. That same day, the 21st. It was a Tuesday. The 21st of April,
10 1998, that's when I last saw them, same as my parents. And Milica, too.
11 Q. And on the 21st, after this conversation took place, what did you
13 A. After this conversation on the 21st, I picked up my sister and
14 her son Ivan and I left for Decane. That's where they lived. I took
15 them there and I myself travelled on to Djakovica.
16 Q. What time was it, approximately?
17 A. It was sometime in the afternoon, possibly 3.00 or 4.00 p.m.
18 Q. And when you left your home, the persons you mention, apart from
19 the ones who left with you, were still in your house; is that correct?
20 A. Yes. They remained.
21 Q. Where did you spend the night?
22 A. I spent that night in Djakovica.
23 Q. And the next day, which is probably the 22nd of April, what did
24 you do?
25 A. I met a friend of mine and we went to Pec, from Djakovica to Pec.
1 He was a Catholic. And I met my brother Novak, my older brother who had
2 stayed behind, at our house on the 21st.
3 Q. And what was the name of that friend you were with?
4 A. I left with him for Pec to take a motor vehicle there on
5 business. Duna Laka, that was his name.
6 Q. So you met your brother, as you said. What did your brother say
7 to you, then? It was April the 22nd, 1998. What did he say?
8 A. It was sometime around mid-day but I can't remember specifically.
9 I asked him about the situation, what the situation was like, what people
10 were doing over there, how our parents were doing, and he said he had
11 left early that morning, at 6.00. Since he had to go to work, he took
12 the bus from Pec to Decani. It was all right by the time he left home
13 and everything was normal back there.
14 Q. Could you clarify one thing. He said he left Gornji Ratis. On
15 what day and at what time exactly?
16 A. Sure. He left the next day, the 22nd of April, 1998. At 6.00
17 a.m. he left and went to work.
18 Q. So when he left, your parents were still at home, were they? And
19 he himself, when did he see your parents for the last time, and Slobodan
20 Radunovic -- Radosevic?
21 A. I didn't ask Slobo Radosevic when he'd last seen them. They
22 probably left and went to their own homes that afternoon when we left,
23 and the parents, that morning, if they got up that morning; if not, then
24 that same evening.
25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I can't follow that question and
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre --
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You're not the only one in this room.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you please clarify the last question and
5 answer so that we do understand what especially was asked and elicit such
6 an answer that it's comprehensible to us as well.
7 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] This was a double question.
8 Q. I wanted to know when your brother Novak saw your parents for the
9 last time, as well as Milos Radunovic and Slobodan Radosevic for the last
11 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I'm not accustomed to American
12 objections of compound questioning. It's not something we do in my
13 jurisdiction. But that is a classic example of how not to ask a
14 question, with respect.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, if you ask two questions at the same
16 time intermingled, then there's a fair chance of confusion in getting the
17 answer. Earlier, it was not a double question but a credible question.
18 Now it's a double question. Could you please reduce that to a single
20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.
21 Q. When did your brother tell you he saw your parents for the last
23 A. My brother said on the 22nd of April. That's what he said when I
24 saw him. I didn't ask him when he'd last seen them, but probably that
25 morning. So probably it was the evening of the 21st, when he went to
2 Q. Thank you. And when was it that he saw Milos Radunovic and
3 Slobodan Radosevic for the last time?
4 A. They didn't spend the night in our house. They probably went
5 home, so that should mean he saw them on the 21st of April. Probably
6 later than I did. It was after I'd left.
7 Q. Understood. So what did you do yourself on that day, the 22nd of
8 April, 1998, after you had met your brother?
9 A. I went back to Djakovica. I sat down with a mate of mine in a
10 restaurant, this person named Duna Laka. We had taken the car there
11 together, if you remember.
12 Q. Did you hear of anything else about Milos Radunovic and Slobodan
13 Radosevic on that very day?
14 A. Yes, I did. Some police officers came in saying that word had
15 reached them of Slobo and Milos -- Slobodan Radosevic and Milos Radunovic
16 having been arrested.
17 Q. Do you have the name of these policemen?
18 A. Milutin Prascevic.
19 Q. And who else?
20 A. There were others, but I didn't know them.
21 Q. Did they say who had arrested Milos Radunovic and Slobo
23 A. They said the Albanians had arrested them.
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: What does that mean? How do you understand "the
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That probably means the Kosovo
2 Liberation Army. Uniformed people who were turning up here and there and
4 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Once you had that information, how did you react for your
6 parents? What were the moves you tried to take when you did try to take
7 some, of course?
8 A. First of all, I wanted to go in and get them, but on my way I
9 stopped by the police station in Decane.
10 Q. And what did you do in the police station in Decani?
11 A. I wanted to ask around to see if it was safe to go there, if
12 maybe they knew something about what was going on.
13 Q. And what did the policemen tell you about the situation and the
14 events then?
15 A. They say it was no longer safe to go there. They said that in
16 the village of Pozar, Kojo Stijovic had been taken; Konstantin Stijovic;
17 Novak Stijovic, his son; Stanisa Radosevic; Milka Stijovic; and
18 Stanislava Popovic; they had all been arrested.
19 Q. What else happened to them exactly? Did the policemen tell you
21 A. I didn't ask any further questions, but I did see all these
22 people myself later. Konstantin Stijovic and Novak, as well as Stana
23 Popovic, who was my next-door neighbour.
24 MR. EMMERSON: I do apologise again, but the transcript does not
25 here reflect the list of names that the witness gave. I don't know
1 whether it's translation or transcription problem. But at line 21, the
2 list of names does not properly reflect the testimony that the witness
3 gave, and I wonder if Mr. Dutertre could ask him to give it again,
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you need it at this moment, then it's fine
6 to further ask for it, Mr. Emmerson. Otherwise, of course, as soon as we
7 find such an accent circumflex, then it's an indication that it will be
8 reviewed later so that the exact names appear. But if you need them at
9 this moment, then you may invite Mr. Dutertre to ask the witness to
10 repeat his answer.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, since there is a break in the
12 proceedings, I would interpose an objection on the multiple instances
13 that have been in the record thus far of multiple hearsay as well as
14 speculation with an understanding of what the Chamber's ruling has been
15 before. But in the testimony that has occurred thus far, there have been
16 both multiple -- instances of multiple hearsay, as well as speculative
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, if Mr. Dutertre puts a question to
19 the witness, he doesn't know whether the answer will be speculative or
20 not. But at least, Mr. Dutertre, where you earlier said, "if I would
21 have time to ask in more detail," you certainly are aware that if the
22 Chamber doesn't receive more detail about hearsay, that of course this
23 will -- this may well have consequences when evaluating the evidence.
24 So, therefore -- and also, if you think that the witness could give us
25 more than just speculation, then of course if you consider the
1 information the witness provides to the Chamber of relevance and of
2 importance to your case, then better try to find out what is speculation
3 and what is knowledge.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I am trying to
6 hear from our witness where the information is coming from. Thank you
7 for reminding me of this. I do share the Defence's concern that we need
8 to have the exact names when the police mentioned that something had
9 happened to them.
10 Q. And I would like our witness to repeat the names of those people;
11 that is to say, those people who, as reported by the police, had been
12 victims to that event.
13 A. Konstantin Stijovic, his son Novak Stijovic, Stanisa Radosevic,
14 his daughter-in-law --
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please say slowly the names.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, the interpreters have some difficulties in
17 hearing the names. If you are mentioning any names, would you please do
18 it slowly so that they can follow you.
19 Please proceed.
20 So you mentioned -- we have now on the record, Konstantin
21 Stijovic, his son Novak Stijovic, Stanisa Radosevic, and then his
22 daughter-in-law by the name of ...?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Daughter-in-law Milka Stijovic and
24 Stanislava Popovic.
25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
1 Q. Did you speak to any of those people directly, yourself?
2 A. I talked to Kojo Stijovic, his son Novak Stijovic, and
3 Stanislava Popovic.
4 Q. What did Novak Stijovic tell you exactly?
5 A. He told me that they had been detained in the village of Pozar.
6 They had been waiting for them there, and then they took them to Glodjane
7 where they beat him and Stanisa Radosevic, and that they asked them to
8 bring weapons. They left Kojo Stijovic and the others there while they
9 went to bring weapons.
10 Q. Did he say who mistreated them?
11 THE INTERPRETER: Correction of the interpreters: Beat them.
12 A. I didn't ask them. Kojo only told me that Mr. Haradinaj,
13 Ramush's father, saved him and I knew this man personally.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Again, I'm sorry, but it does seem as though
15 Mr. Dutertre and the witness are at cross-purposes. The question at line
16 7 was not Did Novak Stijovic tell you? The answer between lines 8 and
17 lines 12 are about the account given by Novak Stijovic, and the answer --
18 the question at line 13 is about Novak Stijovic, and the answer at
19 line 15 is about his father Kojo Stijovic.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check. Line 7, question what
21 Novak Stijovic told the witness. He then -- then the witness tells what
22 he was told by Novak Stijovic, at least that's what I understand. Yes,
23 that needs clarification, because the next question was -- Mr. Dutertre,
24 was a follow-up on the first question where you invited him to -- you
25 invited the witness to tell us what Novak Stijovic told him, and then in
1 this follow-up question where you clearly seek an answer to what Novak
2 Stijovic told the witness about who mistreated, then in the answer the
3 witness switches to another source. So that should be clarified.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
6 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, my question was to hear from you if -- whether
7 Novak Stijovic has said who had beaten them up?
8 A. He only said that they had been taken to Glodjane. He didn't
9 mention any names.
10 Q. Understood. On April the 23rd, 1998, what happened then?
11 A. I met a neighbour of mine on that day who lived in Decani. His
12 name was Mehmet Goga. He had a piece of land near our house, or actually
13 he bought the land from a man called Perovic. I asked him to go to my
14 parents' house to check up on them and to see how they were fairing.
15 Q. When you said he had bought land close to your place, was that in
16 Gornji Ratis or in some other place?
17 A. That land belonged to Donji Ratis. Actually, it is --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It belonged to
19 Gornji Ratis. It is a piece of land between Gornji Ratis and Donji
21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
22 Q. So you met him on the 23rd and you asked him to go and visit your
23 parents. Did he do so?
24 A. Yes, he did so. I saw him three or four days later and I asked
25 him if he had seen my parents. He said that he did.
1 Q. So you met him again three or four days later, but where did you
2 meet him?
3 A. In Decani.
4 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, who is Tafilj Kuci?
5 A. Tafilj Kuci was our neighbour.
6 Q. One of your neighbours in Gornji Ratis?
7 A. Yes, in Gornji Ratis.
8 Q. How long had you known him?
9 A. I know him ever since the day he was born. He was younger than
10 me, so I knew him since childhood.
11 Q. Did you meet him in April 1998?
12 A. Yes. We met in Djakovica.
13 Q. And what did you talk about?
14 A. He was attending post-secondary school there and I asked him to
15 go to the house and to see what's happening with my parents. I find a
16 car for him. It wasn't our car. I didn't want our car to be seen and
17 recognised in the village. I borrowed a car from an Albanian friend of
18 mine, gave him the car, and told him to go to Ratis and to check up on my
20 Q. Did he tell you what he saw and what had happened?
21 A. Yes, he did.
22 Q. What did he say?
23 A. We agreed to meet some four or five hours later in Decani. He
24 told me that he was unable to go to Ratis, that he was immediately
25 stopped in Prilep, then in Prekoluka, it's a village between Prilep and
1 Rznic, that he had been stopped by the armed members of the KLA and that
2 they wanted to take him to Glodjane. He told me not to go there at all
3 because it was dangerous, and after that he came back. He hardly managed
4 to go back. They were reluctant to release him.
5 Q. What day was that exactly?
6 A. I can't remember exactly, but it was probably two or three days
7 later, that is to say, 23rd or the 24th.
8 Q. Did he give you other details as to what he saw when he was
9 arrested in Prilep and then in Prekoluka?
10 A. He said he saw many armed men and trenches and sandbags, things
11 like that.
12 Q. Where exactly? Where did he see the trenches and sandbags?
13 A. In Prilep and Prekoluka. There were more of them in Prekoluka,
14 so he was unable to proceed beyond that point and he had to return.
15 Q. How did he know that the people who had arrested him were from
16 the UCK?
17 A. They wore uniforms. And they wanted to put a uniform on him,
18 too. They wanted to take him to Glodjane, to give him weapons, and to
19 keep him there.
20 Q. Did he give you a description of these uniforms?
21 A. No. I didn't ask him.
22 Q. And then what did you do next? What did you do to know what had
23 happened to your parents?
24 A. Later I met Mehmet Goga from Decani and I sent him to Ratis. He
25 saw my parents. They were in the house but they were unable to leave the
1 house. Their movements were restricted. They were under guard.
2 Q. Just a clarification. The first person you sent was Tafilj Kuci
3 and then Mehmet Goga and not the other way around?
4 A. Yes, yes. No, no.
5 Q. So I come back, because we've just mentioned Mehmet Goga. Did he
6 tell you why your parents had restricted movements?
7 A. He said that they had been guarded by armed men.
8 Q. Did he give you a more detailed description of these people, of
9 these men?
10 A. No, he didn't. I didn't ask him at that time.
11 Q. And then what did you do next to have information about your
13 A. A neighbour of ours was living in Djakovica. Her name was Faza
14 Haradinaj. Actually, her son was living in Djakovica and she was
16 Q. So she was from Gornji Ratis, was she?
17 A. Yes. Yes, we were neighbours.
18 Q. What did you tell her? What did you ask her?
19 A. Actually, I went to see her son and I wanted to ask her daughter
20 to go down there because she was younger. Her name was Fana. However,
21 she was afraid to go and she said she didn't dare go there. Then her
22 mother volunteered to go down there to the village, to Ratis.
23 Q. What day was that, if you remember, of course, more or less?
24 A. I don't know exactly, but it was after Mehmet Goga. 21st. I
25 would say 25th or 26th. I cannot be sure.
1 Q. Understood. Can you tell us why Fana Haradinaj was afraid of
2 going to Gornji Ratis?
3 A. Well, she was afraid that she would come to some harm probably by
4 the armed KLA gangs.
5 Q. So her mother, Faza Haradinaj, suggested she would go to Gornji
6 Ratis herself. What did she then tell you about this visit?
7 A. She went with her grandson, who was seven or eight years old.
8 However, she was unable to see my parents. She only saw armed men all
9 over the place, and that was in the area between Prilep and Ratis. I
10 asked her to bring at least my mother, but she said she wasn't able to
11 bring my mother even from Ratis.
12 Q. Faza Haradinaj, together with her grandson, how did they travel
13 there? They walked there? They went by car? How did they get there?
14 A. I took them to Prilep from Djakovica, and from then on they
15 walked. She also wanted to visit her son's grave and at the same time to
16 visit my parents. And we agreed to meet again some five or six hours
17 later, because that was approximately the time for her -- that she needed
18 to go to the village and back.
19 Q. Why did you stop the car in Prilep and not further away?
20 A. If I had gone further, I wouldn't be alive today.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, could I ask one clarifying question.
22 You told us, Witness, that you sent both Mr. Kuci and Mr. Goga to see how
23 your parents were. Why did you send them instead of going there
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I had gone there myself, I would
1 probably end up like my parents did. And in addition to that, I was told
2 by the police in Pozar that there were roadblocks everywhere and that
3 people had been taken to Glodjane, so I was afraid.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Why do you think that Mr. Kuci and Mr. Goga did not
5 have a similar risk, or did you think that they were at a similar risk?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were not in the same danger as
7 I would be because Serbs were in great danger.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you suggested that they would not take
9 your car but another car. What made your car more vulnerable than the
10 other car? I mean, why was the risk greater if using your car than the
11 other car?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because everybody would recognise
13 our car belonging to a Serb, and they acted differently if a car was
14 owned by an Albanian. So in order for this person to not expose him to
15 any greater risk, we decided to -- not to give him our car.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So I then well understand that there was less risk
17 for non-Serbs to go there, and there was less risk for a car that could
18 be identified as non-Serb.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, that's how it was.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
21 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Those
22 were exactly the questions I was going to put to wind up this part of the
23 examination, why asking Albanian people to go and visit his parents and
24 not go himself.
25 Q. Going back to Faza Haradinaj, did she describe to you who were
1 those soldiers that she had seen when she walked towards Gornji Ratis
2 from Prilep?
3 A. No, she didn't describe them. She just said that they were in
4 uniforms. I didn't ask her to do that. I didn't think it was necessary
5 because I never realised what was about to happen later.
6 Q. Understood. Then, in September, what did you hear about your
7 parents; that is, in September 1998?
8 A. In September 1998, I think it was early September, we heard that
9 a mass grave was discovered at the end of the Radonjic canal. That's a
10 border between Ratis and Glodjane, and this is where the canal ends.
11 Q. And in that time did you meet someone called Saban Sadikaj?
12 A. Yes. I saw him in Dasinovac, at his house.
13 Q. That was in September 1998?
14 A. Yes, it was in September, but I cannot remember the exact date.
15 I think it was the beginning of September.
16 Q. What did he tell you?
17 A. Saban told me specifically about my parents, that they had been
18 in their house for about 10 or 15 days. He -- our neighbour, Sulj Kuci,
19 could have taken them out.
20 Q. Ten to 15 days after what?
21 A. After I had been there. Some 10 or 15 days after the 21st of
22 April is the period that they spent in the house.
23 Q. Thank you. What else did he say about them?
24 A. He also told me that Mika was living with them, that she came to
25 her cousin. They were family friends of --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please pronounce
2 Albanian/Serbian names slowly.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please, whenever you mention a name, do it slowly
4 because the interpreters could not follow.
5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
6 Q. So when you referred to Mika, who are you referring to exactly?
7 Can you give us the family name?
8 A. Her real name was Milica Radunovic. We called her Mika.
9 Q. This is Milos Radunovic's wife, then?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And then after that what did Saban Sadikaj tell you about your
12 parents and about Mika Radunovic?
13 A. He didn't say anything else about my parents. He only said about
14 his son Xhevat Sadikaj and Rustem Sadrijaj, I think their surname was.
15 Q. What did he say about his son Xhevat?
16 A. Not Xhevat, Djevdet.
17 THE INTERPRETER: My apologies. Djevdet Sadikaj.
18 Q. So what did he say did Djevdet Sadikaj?
19 A. He said that some sort of a meeting had been held in their house
20 which was by the roadside. Djevdet and all those other people who were
21 at the meeting, Rustem and such like, they were the people who caught
22 Milos Radunovic as he was on his way to see Slobo.
23 Q. What house are you referring to when you said there was this
24 meeting in a house? Can you be more specific?
25 A. Saban Sadikaj's house, or rather his son Djevdet's house.
1 Q. You also mentioned someone else who was there. Can you repeat
2 the name?
3 A. Rustem "Kamisi" Sadrijaj.
4 Q. So he said those people had seen Milos Radunovic when they went
5 to see Radosevic. Is that something they thought themselves?
6 A. Yes, he said that.
7 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, but the question doesn't make sense, at
8 least not as translated, and it's not clear at all whether or not
9 Saban Sadikaj was reporting things he has seen and heard or been told.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre.
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, we do have a problem with the
12 translation here. I first said that Saban Sadikaj had said to our
13 witness here attending that some people had caught Milos, who was going
14 to Slobodan Radosevic, and what I asked was if this was Saban Sadikaj had
15 seen himself. That was badly translated, apparently.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That has become rather complicated. Try to put as
17 simple as possible the question you had in mind to this witness so that
18 he feels directly addressed by you.
19 Please proceed.
20 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
21 Q. So has Saban Sadikaj seen that Milos Radunovic was caught when he
22 was going to Slobodan Radosevic by those people you mentioned?
23 A. He told me at the time that he had seen it and that he had told
24 them to leave the man alone. They had been neighbours for a hundred
25 years. And they went after him, too. They started yelling at him and
1 chasing him back all the way to his home.
2 Q. What was the date for that event, according to him?
3 A. This happened right after the 21st. He didn't give me the exact
4 date, but it was right after. The 23rd or 24th, three or four days
6 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, who is Arifaj Madjun?
7 A. Arifaj Madjun was another one of our neighbours from Gornji
8 Ratis. He was living on the border with Rznici.
9 Q. Have you met him in September 1998?
10 A. Yes, I met him.
11 Q. What did you talk about?
12 A. I asked him about my parents. He told me they hadn't been able
13 to save them, nor the village. He said they had been taken to Glodjane.
14 A man named Bajram Ademi from Gornji Ratis tried to save them. His
15 father's name was Imer but he proved unable to do that either. Milica
16 Radunovic, too, was taken away with them.
17 Q. Did he tell you who these men were, these men who took away your
18 parents and Milica Radunovic to Glodjane?
19 A. He said they were armed and uniformed and he didn't know them.
20 Q. He witnessed this event himself?
21 A. There's a river there called Ratiska and then there's a bridge
22 there. That's where he claims this happened. That's where he saw them
23 being taken away.
24 Q. Did he tell you anything else about them?
25 A. No, nothing else. I never asked any further questions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, I don't know how much time you think
2 you'd still need, but also in the last portion of the evidence, if you
3 would approach the matter systematically, then we get better information.
4 If you say, He said -- if the witness says, He said they've been taken to
5 Glodjane, a man named so and so tried to save them, it's totally unclear
6 where this man was when they were arrested, where -- how this man tried
7 to save him. I take it, but that's not asked either, that this has an
8 ethnic background so that, of course, we could guess on who is of what
9 ethnicity. And then he said they were armed and uniformed, but we do not
10 know where he saw them. Were they always in the same hands? It's not a
11 precise -- and you're not insisting in your questioning on getting a
12 precise story.
13 How much time would you still need?
14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Fifteen minutes, Your Honour.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, you're supposed to finish by 4.00 and
17 we'll then have a break. Please proceed.
18 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes. I'll be finished by then,
19 Your Honour.
20 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, moving back to this eye-witness, where was he
21 specifically when he saw those uniformed men taking away your parents as
22 well as Milica Radunovic?
23 A. He was heading down the Ratis-Rznic road, near the river at the
24 bridge. That's where he claims he saw them.
25 Q. Did he give you a description of the uniforms these men were
1 wearing when they took away your parents and Milica Radunovic?
2 A. I never asked, nor did he tell me.
3 Q. Did he tell you the ethnicity of these men?
4 A. I never asked about their ethnicity.
5 Q. You spoke about somebody who tried to save your parents. Did
6 Arifaj Madjun say he was present at the time, and could you give us more
7 details about what happened?
8 A. He told me he had been present and that Bajram Ademi, son of
9 Imer, tried to save him but they tried to kill him, too. And he was in
10 no position to save them, nor was anyone else from the village for that
12 Q. Where did that take place? Where did he try to save them?
13 A. They were taking them to Glodjane. It was along the
14 Ratis-Glodjane road, near the Ratiska river. That's where they met.
15 Q. Bajram Imer had taken what steps, exactly? What did he try to do
16 with the soldiers?
17 A. He told them not to touch them. Those were elderly people who
18 had not harmed people and he told them to simply release them.
19 Q. And at the river, how did Arifaj Madjun know they had been taken
20 towards Glodjane?
21 A. How should I know that? That's what he told me. Was it true or
22 not is not something that I can judge. However, when we met he said, We
23 weren't able to save them; they were taken to Glodjane. I know no more.
24 I didn't ask and he didn't say.
25 Q. Very well.
1 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to have displayed on the
2 screen exhibit number -- 65 ter 710.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Has that got a number already, Mr. Dutertre, or does
4 it need one? Has it been numbered?
5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Not yet.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit number P28,
8 marked for identification.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, could you tell us who the person on this photograph
13 A. This is my father, Milovan Vlahovic.
14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Now I'd like to have displayed 65
15 ter number 1.
16 JUDGE ORIE: It needs a number as well, Mr. ...?
17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P29,
20 marked for identification.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, could you tell us who is depicted on that
25 A. My mother, Milka Vlahovic.
1 Q. Thank you. Mr. Vlahovic, did you at some stage give a blood
2 sample for DNA analysis?
3 A. Yes, twice. For my father and for my mother.
4 Q. Did you learn whether your mother had been identified through DNA
6 A. Yes. They identified her in that way, and they sent the remains
7 to us.
8 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to have displayed on our
9 screens 65 ter document number 901, page 2. It will also need a number.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be Exhibit number P30,
12 marked for identification.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I do not wish this exhibit to be
15 broadcast outside this courtroom.
16 JUDGE ORIE: It's marked for identification under seal.
17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Could we enlarge it, please?
18 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, can you see your name among the various people
19 reported to have given a blood sample for analysis?
20 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, there is no dispute about this
21 evidence. As Mr. Dutertre knows, the DNA evidence is the subject of
22 agreement in respect to this set of remains.
23 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be no dispute, Mr. Dutertre, that
24 this -- I take it that then signatures, whatever we find on that
25 document, is accepted as in conformity with reality.
1 MR. EMMERSON: It's not simply the document. The correctness of
2 the DNA identification is the subject of an agreed fact. The evidence
3 that's being elicited at the moment as far as, with the greatest respect,
4 I can see is simply a waste of time.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, there seems to be no dispute about
6 this. Although we have not received a final confirmation of this to be
7 an agreed fact, we have been now --
8 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Your Honour --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] -- a few questions were asked
11 during a previous testimony on the identification process, and given
12 those questions, I thought that there may have been some concerns from
13 the Defence. But I'm glad to hear today that there is no argument, and
14 that we can actually finalise the agreed facts on these issues as quickly
15 as possible.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] If there's no dispute, I will now
18 conclude this line of questioning on that exhibit.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, there may have been problems with the
20 usual, I would say, the traditional, identification and also perhaps
21 through mixing up remains, but I do understand that here there's no
22 dispute about this DNA identification.
23 MR. EMMERSON: Just for the sake of clarification, I didn't ask
24 any questions of any witness about DNA identification. The questions, as
25 Your Honour knows, that I've been asking are directed to the integrity of
1 the Serbian recovery and forensic operation, rather than to any question
2 of subsequent DNA analysis by international organisations, which we've
3 indicated would be agreed now for very many months.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And do we also understand that there's no issue in
5 relation to this identification as to mixing up remains or not? Okay.
6 Not correctly identifying from whom the samples were taken and who
7 exactly was identified.
8 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: So the record is clear, we are of the same mind
10 with regard to this set of remains.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Harvey, I hardly can see you, but if
12 you're silent, I take it that you agree?
13 MR. HARVEY: Silence indicates content and consent.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
15 Mr. Dutertre, any further questions?
16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I'm happy to
17 see that everything's clear, but I didn't think it was that clear when
18 Mr. Radosevic was questioned, although there had been an agreement on the
19 DNA identification of the father of that witness. But I am glad to hear
20 that, in fact, there's no dispute and we'll finalise everything as
21 quickly as possible.
22 I have no further questions for this witness, Your Honour. Thank
24 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one relatively simple question,
25 Mr. Vlahovic. You told us that the source of your knowledge was at the
1 bridge over the Ratiska river. Was that where your parents were arrested
2 or taken, or was it at any other place?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. My parents were arrested in
4 their home because they had remained there. This was only the road to
5 Glodjane. He probably just happened to be there when they were being
6 taken away. I didn't ask him how he got to be there, but he was the one
7 who shared this story with me.
8 JUDGE ORIE: What actually happened is that they saw your parents
9 after, as you understood, they had been arrested at home, been taken in a
10 certain direction, and at that point in the road they intervened, or at
11 least your source of knowledge, the one who told you that someone else at
12 that point intervened and asked to have them released. Is that correctly
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He and Bajram Imer or Bajram
15 Ademi. Bajram was fiercely in favour of them being released, but those
16 other men tried to kill him.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for this answer.
18 We'll have a break until 4.25. After the break, you'll be
19 cross-examined by counsel for the Defence.
20 We stand adjourned.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 --- Recess taken at 4.02 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 4.30 p.m.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, the Chamber was informed that you
25 would like to address us. Could it be done in open session?
1 MR. EMMERSON: No.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll turn into private session.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 1600-1609 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 [The witness takes the stand]
16 WITNESS: MILOICA VLAHOVIC [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
20 Mr. Emmerson, may I take it that you keep a close eye on when to
21 go into private session for the reasons you mentioned earlier.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I leave that entirely to you.
24 MR. EMMERSON: I think I can indicate now, that given the
25 slippage that there's been, that I'm going to be saying to Your Honours
1 at an appropriate moment when we break, that the sensible course would be
2 to keep these witnesses separate overnight.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. EMMERSON: What sort of time would Your Honours imagine the
5 next break ought to take place?
6 JUDGE ORIE: The next break, I would say, approximately a quarter
7 to 6.00, and then we would have a break until -- no, perhaps a little bit
8 later, ten minutes to 6.00, and then we'll split it in even parts.
9 We're just trying to fully understand your last observation,
10 Mr. Emmerson. You said, "I think I can indicate right now" -- yes, that
11 you'll give us the indication at the next break, is that --
12 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I think I know what the indication is going
13 to be already.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that would be ...?
15 MR. EMMERSON: That it would be preferable to pursue the course
16 that Your Honours suggested.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I don't think that there was any
18 principal objection to that.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: I've put everything I want to put to you about
20 that clearly this morning.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: The only other matter is --
23 JUDGE ORIE: We are at this moment in open session and the
24 witness is present. I don't know whether what you'd like to say is
25 appropriately said under those circumstances.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: I think it can be. I think it's just the comfort
2 of the -- the comfort of the next -- is there any real possibility of
3 dealing with any other person than this gentleman today? Because if
4 there is --
5 JUDGE ORIE: I understand your question is when we expect to --
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Move on.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- to conclude with this witness.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. That's right.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, would that be today or would that
10 be --
11 MR. EMMERSON: Because I think it's unlikely that we will
12 conclude before the end of the afternoon, but obviously I'm going to try
13 to cross-examine as briefly as I can, so it's a possibility we could
14 finish before 7.00.
15 JUDGE ORIE: There is a possibility.
16 MR. EMMERSON: There's a possibility, but it's not very likely.
17 I'm sorry not to be more specific.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No, but then I'd rather ...
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: If you will finish before 7.00, Mr. Emmerson, we
21 will then adjourn for the day.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Well, then, I take it that the usual
23 arrangements for the comfort of any other people can be made?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Vlahovic, I apologise for calling you in and not
2 paying proper attention to your presence. You'll now be cross-examined.
3 Mr. Emmerson, I take it that you'll be the first one to start to
4 cross-examine the witness.
5 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson is counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
9 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, can I start, please, by clarifying with you some
10 family relationships. In 1998, you had three brothers; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Were their names Rade, Novak, and Goran?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. I think you also had two sisters, one called Nadia and one called
15 Natalia; is that correct?
16 A. Not Nadia, Nada. And Natalia is correct.
17 Q. Thank you for correcting me.
18 A. You're welcome.
19 Q. You told us that at the time you've described in the run-up to
20 the 21st/22nd of April of 1998, that you had a home and a restaurant in
21 Gjakova; is that right?
22 A. We had a flat and a restaurant in Djakovica.
23 Q. And am I right in thinking that by the time you last saw your
24 parents by the date on which you last saw your parents, you and all of
25 your siblings were working either in Decane or in Gjakova?
1 A. That is right.
2 Q. And did each of you have somewhere to live near to your place of
4 A. We had a flat and a house.
5 Q. I'm not simply asking about you, Mr. Vlahovic. All of your
6 brothers and sisters were spending some of their nights sleeping near to
7 the place of their work in either Decane or Gjakova, were they not?
8 A. Yes. Nada used to live in Pec as well.
9 Q. The thrust of my question is simply this: None of you were
10 living all the time at your parents' home at this point, were you?
11 A. At the time Novak was living there mostly, and I also spent more
12 time at my parents' home than I did in Djakovica.
13 Q. Very well. No one had ever told you or your brothers and sisters
14 that you had to leave Ratishe, had they?
15 A. No one had told us that.
16 Q. You mentioned during your evidence this afternoon that from the
17 beginning of the year, you had heard from time to time - and I think you
18 said daily - the sound of gun-fire coming from the direction of Gllogjan;
19 is that right?
20 A. After New Year, I said intermittently, but then at the beginning
21 of April these gun-shots from automatic weapons were heard on a daily
22 basis coming from the direction of Glodjane.
23 Q. When you say the beginning of April, you know that there was an
24 incident that happened in Gllogjan on the 24th of March, don't you? Was
25 it after that that you started to hear more frequent gun-fire coming from
1 the training ground, as you thought it was?
2 A. I didn't pay attention whether it became more frequent. What we
3 did were -- what we did hear were gun-shots.
4 Q. Now, you told us that there came a day when your father saw men
5 near to the house firing guns into the air. You remember telling us
6 about that?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. And I just want to be absolutely clear that we can work out the
9 dates. I think you told us that your father told you about this incident
10 on the Monday and that it had happened the day before, on the Sunday; is
11 that right?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. And you told us yesterday that he didn't give you a description
14 of these men; is that right, also?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. Did he tell you that they were on a tractor?
17 A. Yes, they were on a tractor, and there was a trailer attached to
18 the tractor.
19 Q. Did you tell us that he said some of them were your neighbours?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did he give you a description of what they were wearing?
22 A. He said that they were firing from automatic rifles, bursts of
23 fire and single shots as well.
24 Q. Did he give you a description of what they were wearing?
25 A. No, he didn't, and I didn't ask him either.
1 Q. Again, just to be absolutely certain on dates, you're clear that
2 your father told you this on the Monday because you'd spent the weekend
3 away; is that correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. Now, if I tell you that the 20th of April was a Monday, that
6 would mean that your father had seen these men firing guns into the air
7 on Sunday, the 19th. Do you agree?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. Now, up until that time, you yourself had never been stopped by
10 armed Albanians; is that right?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. And neither had any of your siblings?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. By this time, Monday, the 20th, had you ever seen groups of armed
15 Albanians gathered on the roads in the villages around where you lived?
16 A. No, I hadn't.
17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
18 MR. EMMERSON:
19 Q. By this date, had you ever seen any Albanians in uniform in the
20 areas around your home?
21 A. No, I hadn't.
22 Q. So the only sign of any sort of activity of this kind is the
23 sound of gun-fire that you had heard, you say, on a daily basis from the
24 beginning of April; is that right?
25 A. Yes, yes. It's not what I am saying; that is how it exactly
2 Q. Just to return to your family relations for a moment. Can I ask
3 you about the Markovic family. And I think you know, don't you, that the
4 Markovic family were after this time, after the 20th, they were escorted
5 out of the area by Djevdet Sadikaj?
6 A. Yes, that's correct, but he didn't dare to escort them to Decani.
7 He had to take another route via Bistrica, Berane and then Lausic, which
8 means that something was happening at the time since he was afraid to
9 take them via direct route so he had to take a bypass route.
10 Q. I'm going to ask you some more questions about that in a little
11 while, but just for the time being, can we be clear, that incident with
12 the Markovics being escorted from their home, that is something which
13 took place after you last saw your parents, isn't it?
14 A. Yes. It was, I think, two days later. It may have been the
16 Q. We'll come to -- sorry. We will come to that incident in a
17 little while. But I just want to ask you about the Markovic family.
18 They lived in Dashinoc; is that right?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the parents were called Dragomir and Milojka Markovic; is
21 that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And they had two sons called Branislav and Slavisa; is that
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Did they have any other children?
2 A. They had a daughter, but she was married in Pec.
3 Q. Were those people that you've described, Dragomir, Milojka,
4 Branislav, Slavisa Markovic and the daughter, were they related to your
5 family or not?
6 A. The late Dragomir was a cousin of my mother, but she died in
8 Q. Sorry. Who died in 1968?
9 A. Not 1968, 1988. And I'm talking about Dragomir Markovic.
10 Q. So Dragomir Markovic was dead in 1988?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So the family that were --
13 A. My apologies. Not in 1988, in 1998 or perhaps 1997. I think he
14 was late in 1997, after all. My apologies.
15 Q. Was he alive or not at the time that you're telling us about when
16 Djevdet Sadikaj escorted the family away from their home in Dashinoc two
17 days after you last saw your parents alive? Was Dragomir still alive
18 then or not, or had he already died?
19 A. He had died already.
20 Q. So that the family that was escorted out consisted of his wife,
21 Milojka; is that right? And Branislav and Slavisa; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And just so that we're clear about the relationship, Dragomir was
24 your mother's cousin?
25 A. Yes, a distant cousin.
1 Q. Yes. "Cousin" is a word that's caused us some difficulties in
2 this case. To us "cousin" means the daughter or son of your uncle or
3 aunt; in other words, that your parent is the sister or brother of their
4 parent. Is that what you understand by the word "cousin"?
5 A. We say "uncle" or "cousin" when they're direct relatives, the
6 brother's children or the sister's children, and we use "cousin" too to
7 cover this when they are three or four times' removed. They're
8 relatives, anyway.
9 Q. Okay. So Dragomir at least was a relative but not an immediate
10 relative of your mother; correct?
11 A. Yes. Correct.
12 Q. Now let me ask you about two men called Rade Markovic and Zvonko
13 Markovic. These two men have made statements to the Prosecution in which
14 they refer to your parents as their uncle and their aunt. Were they your
15 cousins in the strict sense of the word?
16 A. They were close relatives. My mother and their father are a
17 brother and sister.
18 Q. So that is what we understand by "cousins," clearly. Your
19 parents and their parents were brother and sister, your parent and their
20 parent were brother and sister?
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. Did you see them a lot at this time?
23 A. I did, yes.
24 Q. And as a teacher from the area, you presumably knew quite a lot
25 of the Serb families in that area quite well, did you not? You'd seen
1 their children grow up, and so on?
2 A. I knew all of them in Decani municipality, although there were
3 not many to begin with.
4 Q. Well, that's very helpful because I want to ask you about some of
5 the other Serb families in the area and how they are related to one
7 First of all, the Stijovic family. You knew Konstantin Stijovic;
8 is that right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what was Konstantin Stijovic's wife's name?
11 A. Rosa, Rosa Stijovic. But she's dead as well.
12 Q. Very roughly, how old was Konstantin Stijovic in April 1998? I
13 don't need an exact year but just an approximate age?
14 A. About 70, 68, perhaps 70 years old.
15 Q. Now, Momo Stijovic was one of his sons; is that right?
16 A. Yes, that's right.
17 Q. Now, you've told us today that Momo Stijovic was injured during
18 an incident in Gllogjan when the police officer called Otovic was killed.
19 Is that the same Momo Stijovic?
20 A. No.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Please be careful.
23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] I'd like to know what is the
24 reference of the transcript where this was said by the witness?
25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm plainly in the middle of cross-examining, not
1 in a position to check the transcript, but it's there and we will check
2 it overnight. But let me put the question a different way.
3 JUDGE ORIE: I'll find it in a second and see what it says.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Let me put the question a different way.
5 Q. You were interviewed on the 8th of March this year by videolink
6 from Belgrade, weren't you? Yes?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. And we have a note of what you are recorded as having said in
9 that interview. Yes? You understand that?
10 A. I do, yes.
11 Q. And you're recorded as having said that Momo Stijovic was injured
12 in the incident in Gllogjan on the 24th of March.
13 A. Yes, that's right, he was injured but that's a different Momo,
14 not the same man.
15 Q. That's what I wanted to clarify with you. There are two
16 Momo Stijovics; yes?
17 A. Yes. Same last name, same first name, but they were just
18 relatives, distant ones at that.
19 Q. Did you know them both?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. Very well. Now, another of Konstantin's sons was Novak Stijovic;
22 is that correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. In a statement that --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, page 11, line 15.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. EMMERSON:
3 Q. In a statement that you made to the Prosecution in this case, you
4 referred to a woman called Milka, M-i-l-k-a, Stijovic, who you described
5 as Konstantin's daughter-in-law. Who was she married to, please?
6 A. She was married to Slavo Stijovic.
7 Q. Slobo Stijovic [sic]. Right. So can we just have it clear. How
8 many sons did Konstantin Stijovic have? We've heard about Momo; we've
9 heard about Novak. You're now telling us about Slobodan. Were there any
11 A. My apologies. Vojo [as interpreted] is not Slavo's son. You
12 asked me who Milka was married to. To Slavo Stijovic. Slavo Stijovic.
13 Q. I'm sorry, I misheard you. It wasn't Slobodan, it was Slavo;
15 A. Yes, but that's the husband of the daughter-in-law,
16 Milka Stijovic.
17 Q. But since Milka is Konstantin's daughter-in-law, it must follow
18 that Slavo is Konstantin's son; is that correct?
19 A. No, no, no, no, no. When we say "daughter-in-law," what we mean
20 is the brother's wife.
21 Q. Sorry. Let's just be clear. I'm going to ask you the questions
22 from the top. How many sons did Konstantin Stijovic have?
23 A. Konstantin Stijovic had three sons.
24 Q. Can you give us their names, please?
25 A. My apologies, it wasn't three, it was four sons. My mistake.
1 Q. Can you give us their names, please?
2 A. I think the eldest was called Dimitrije. They called him Ljako.
3 I used to know him as Ljako. I think his real name was Dimitrije, but
4 everybody called him Ljako. Momo was another one, Miodrag and Novak.
5 Q. Now, Milka was not married to any of those, was she?
6 A. No, no. Let me tell you one thing: Milka was the sister-in-law
7 of his brother, the wife of his uncle. She's quite elderly. She must be
8 60 or 70 years old by now.
9 Q. So the wife of whose uncle?
10 A. A cousin, relative. They're not even brothers, not directly.
11 Slavo Stijovic and Milka's husband, they're cousins, distant ones.
12 They're not quite directly related. The sister-in-law of his son.
13 Q. Well, I'm afraid you're confusing me. I don't know if everybody
14 else is clear. Who is Slavo Stijovic in this story? Because you've
15 given us the names of four sons; none of them are Slavo. Who is Slavo?
16 A. You asked me about the sons, and I told you it was Ljako. I
17 think his name was Dimitrije but most people just called him Ljako. Then
18 Momo, Miodrag.
19 Q. And who is Slavo, please?
20 A. Slavo is Milka's husband, the woman who was taken to Glodjane.
21 And Slavo is a distant cousin, not his son. He was an elderly man. He
22 even died in Kragujevac last year. He was 70 at least. So he wasn't his
23 son, he was a distant cousin.
24 Q. That's extremely helpful. So --
25 JUDGE ORIE: But if we are talking about a distant cousin, a
1 distant cousin of Konstantin or of whom?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Konstantin. Slavo is Konstantin --
3 a distant cousin, and Milka is his sister-in-law. That's at least what
4 we used to call that sort of thing. I'm not sure what you do around
5 here. "Daughter-in-law" is the husband's wife, and "sister-in-law" is
6 the brother's wife.
7 MR. EMMERSON:
8 Q. That's very helpful by way of clarification. So the three people
9 you told us, or three of the people you told us at one point were taken
10 to Gllogjan were Konstantin Stijovic, Milka Stijovic, and Stana Popovic;
12 A. Correct. And Novak Stijovic.
13 Q. I'll come to those in a moment. But of those three names I've
14 just given you, they were all elderly people, were they?
15 A. Yes, all elderly.
16 Q. Thank you. Does the name Danilo, D-a-n-i-l-o, Stijovic mean
17 anything to you?
18 A. Danilo Stijovic? I think it was Momo's cousin, but he's from
19 Vitesa [phoen], too, but I'm not certain.
20 Q. Did you know him, Danilo?
21 A. Perhaps by sight but not otherwise.
22 Q. Can we move to the Radosevic family. I'm not going to go in as
23 much detail into each of them, but can we move to the Radosevic family.
24 The father was Slobodan and the mother was Rosa; is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. They had one son we know about called Stanisa, who has given
2 evidence in this court.
3 A. That's right. They have two sons: Radoje and Stanisa. Radoje
4 being the elder and Stanisa being the younger son, plus four daughters.
5 Q. Thank you. And can I ask you about the name Zeljko Radosevic,
6 Z-e-l-j-k-o. Zeljko Radosevic, do you know who that is?
7 A. No, I don't. He certainly wasn't from that area.
8 Q. Thank you. Now the Radunovic family, briefly. The father was
9 called Milos; is that right?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. And the mother was called Milka.
12 A. Milica. You mean Milos's wife? Milos's mother's name was Dunja.
13 I'm not sure which one you had in mind, his mother or his wife.
14 Q. I'm sorry. I meant wife.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, when you are talking about Danilo, who
16 was the cousin of Momo Stijovic, I was a bit confused because the witness
17 earlier testified that there are --
18 MR. EMMERSON: No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Momo, he said Momo, or did I --
20 MR. EMMERSON: I think I asked him, and this is line -- page 66,
21 line 1: "Does the name Danilo mean anything to you?" And he says: "I
22 think it was Momo's cousin."
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But now we have two Momos.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, you're quite right.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to know whether he is the cousin of
1 Momo, the son of Konstantin, or of the other Momo. That confused me a
3 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour is quite right.
4 Q. Can you answer the Judge's question, if you understand it? Was
5 Danilo the cousin of the Momo who was the son of Konstantin, or was he
6 the cousin of the Momo who was injured at Gllogjan on the 24th of March?
7 A. No, no, no. He wasn't a cousin of Momo's son, but he was related
8 to that Momo who was injured in Glodjane. This Momo was from Bites. So
9 he was his relative and not the other man's relative.
10 Q. Thank you. And going back, then, to the Radunovic family. Milos
11 and his wife Milica, can you tell us, please, the names of their
13 A. They had three children: Lidija Radunovic, Mirko Radunovic, and
14 Ljubisa Radunovic. Two sons, one daughter. Lidija Radunovic, Mirko
15 Radunovic and --
16 Q. Ljubisa.
17 A. -- Ljubisa Radunovic.
18 Q. Thank you. And how old roughly was Ljubisa in April 1998, just
20 A. Back in 1998, you mean?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Thirty-one, 32. I think he was born in 1965 or possibly 1966 or
23 possibly 1967.
24 Q. Now the Stojanovic family. You mentioned Dragoslav, and the
25 brother who was with Dragoslav at the time of the incident you've told us
1 about was called Mijat; is that correct? M-i-j-a-t?
2 A. That's correct. That's correct. His nickname was --
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't catch the nickname.
4 MR. EMMERSON:
5 Q. What was his nickname, Mijat's nickname?
6 A. Kika. Kika.
7 Q. And did they -- were there other brothers or was there just two
9 A. There were five of them.
10 Q. Five brothers. Could you give us the names of the other three,
12 A. Predrag, last name Stojanovic, needless to say; Vesko --
13 Q. I'm sorry, is his name Veselin in full?
14 A. Believe me, I'm not certain myself. I think it's Vesko. I don't
15 know. I think it's Vesko. Veselin is the Stijovic one. You probably
16 have a different person in mind.
17 Q. We'll come -- we'll come to Veselin Stijovic in a minute, but
18 isn't "Vesko" a short-form for "Veselin"?
19 A. Not necessarily. Could be both.
20 Q. I see. So there was still one brother outstanding. You've told
21 us about Dragoslav, Mijat, Predrag, Vesko. And the last one was called?
22 A. Vlado.
23 Q. Vlado. And were these five boys all over 18 at the time that
24 we're concerned with, in April 1998?
25 A. All were, yes.
1 Q. Thank you. That's all I want to ask you about for the moment
2 about family relationships. I now want to move on to another topic and
3 to the evidence you gave us yesterday about the problems that you say had
4 been experienced by Serb families in this area over decades leading up to
5 1998. And you told us yesterday, if I can take it shortly, that the Serb
6 population had dwindled over the decades as a result of persistent
7 harassment from Albanians. Is that a fair summary?
8 A. Yes, that is a fair summary. Let me tell you, back in 1971, one
9 of my distant cousins, Milo Vlahovic and Atric Perovic had this happen to
10 them. They set fire to their haystacks out in the field.
11 Q. I'm very happy for you to give us as much detail as you want, but
12 could you just concentrate on answering the question? I will give you
13 the opportunity, I assure you, to tell us all about it. But you agree
14 with the summary that I've put to you?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. Now, in the witness statement that you made for the Prosecution
17 in this case, you said that there had always been tension between Serb
18 and Albanian families in the area; you said it had been like that "all my
19 life." Is that a fair description of the situation?
20 A. It was always like that, but it didn't apply to all families.
21 There were good families, too.
22 Q. Yeah, there were particular problems with particular Albanian
23 families; is that what you're saying?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. Now, again, I'm going to put to you some of the things that you
1 said to us yesterday and I'll just get you to confirm the description
2 you've given us, and if there's anything you want to add, please do.
3 You told us yesterday that over the decades Albanians denied
4 Serbs access to the public irrigation system; is that right?
5 A. In my village, in my general area, yes, that was the case.
6 Q. And that on occasions some Albanians would set Serb crops on
7 fire; is that right?
8 A. That was the case as well.
9 Q. And you've told us just a moment ago about one such incident that
10 took place in the 1970s; is that right?
11 A. 1971.
12 Q. And you said yesterday that in some areas, although not in
13 Ratishe, Serb girls were being raped; is that right?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. And I think you said at one point in an interview you gave on the
16 videolink that Albanians would graze their animals on Serb property over
17 the decades; is that right? Pardon?
18 A. That was known to happen, too.
19 Q. I mean, these were the grievances that Mr. Milosevic was taking
20 up; is that right?
21 A. I don't know if he was or not, but I know what happened in my
22 area and my village specifically. About the water-supply system, that
23 was certainly true. And they really wrought a lot of havoc in the area.
24 Q. I see. Were there disputes between particular Serb families and
25 particular Albanian families about the ownership of land and grazing land
1 that had gone back for generations?
2 A. I don't know. I don't know.
3 Q. You weren't aware of any land disputes?
4 A. I wasn't. I didn't know about any particular dispute. I know
5 that Serbs would sell their land and Albanians would buy the land. I'm
6 not sure about any conveyance deeds or anything like that, how that
8 Q. I'm not talking about conveyancing problems, Mr. Vlahovic. But,
9 for example, arguments about whether it was okay for one family who was
10 Albanian to graze their animals on another family's land, that type of
11 thing which you've just told us about, those kind of arguments about
12 property were common. Is that your evidence?
13 A. Things like that did happen, problems with cattle.
14 Q. I mean, what you've described is, as you put it, a campaign of
15 harassment going on for decades against the Serb population in that area.
16 Is that what you're trying to convey to the Tribunal?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Is it fair to say that most Serb families that you knew in the
19 area had hunting weapons at their homes?
20 A. Not all, but many did; that's true.
21 Q. As far as you know, did the Serbs ever retaliate over the years?
22 A. Not that I know of, or, rather, I don't remember.
23 Q. I see. And before 1997, were the Albanian families generally
24 armed or not? Before 1997.
25 A. There were Albanians who had hunting rifles, but how should I
1 know exactly who had a hunting rifle and who didn't.
2 Q. I'm just asking you for an impression. You've told us that most
3 Serb families had hunting weapons. It's not right, is it, that most
4 Albanian families had hunting weapons?
5 A. They were some who had hunting weapons, those who went hunting,
6 that sort of thing.
7 Q. Were there restrictions on Albanians owning weapons, Mr.
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. I see. Let's ask you about something you do know about. You've
11 told us that in 1991 Albanian families stopped sending their children to
12 Serb-run schools; is that right?
13 A. Not Serb-run schools. They stopped sending their children to --
14 or, rather, they didn't accept the Serbian curriculum. They wanted an
15 Albanian one and that's why they no longer sent their children to the
16 same school that all the Serb children went to. The Decani state school,
17 for example, there was an elementary school there, it was called
18 Brotherhood in Crmljane, and then the Serbs moved to an elementary school
19 in the downtown area, but the Albanians were left with that elementary
20 school and they kept on using it. And more or less the same thing
21 happened in other villages, for example, in Gramocelj where I worked.
22 All of those were state-run schools, but only the Albanians attended.
23 There were no Serbs or Roma people, students, there.
24 Q. And as part of the Serb state curriculum, you were teaching
25 Serbian language to Albanian children, were you?
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 Q. Can you speak Albanian?
3 A. Yes, I can.
4 Q. Had you ever been permitted to teach in Albanian at any time?
5 A. You mean to the Albanian children in Albanian? I don't
6 understand your question.
7 Q. Yes, that's my question. You do understand it?
8 A. Look, I taught children Serbian. The rest of the instruction was
9 in Albanian. They had their Albanian professors for mathematics,
10 history, and all other subjects, so they had tuition in their mother
11 tongue. They only had Serbian, just as we Serbs learned Albanian, and we
12 had an Albanian teacher. I could have taught them, but why should that
13 be the case if they had their Albanian teachers.
14 Q. I want you to be very careful in your evidence on this, Mr.
15 Vlahovic. Are you saying that throughout the 1990s, in the schools that
16 you were aware of in the area around where you lived, it was open to
17 Albanian families to have their children taught in Albanian, all the way
18 through the 1990s in the schools you were working in?
19 A. You said "English"? Yes, yes, yes. When I went to school, they
20 also had tuition in Albanian. I started learning Albanian in my fourth
21 grade, and the Serbian was just one of the subjects. The rest of the
22 subjects were being taught in Albanian.
23 Q. Did there come a time when it was no longer permissible under the
24 Serbian state curriculum for children to be taught in Albanian,
25 Mr. Vlahovic?
1 A. Until September 1991. That is when the Albanians agreed to learn
3 Q. Can you answer --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction:
5 A. The Albanians ceased learning Serbian and vice versa.
6 MR. EMMERSON:
7 Q. Can I ask you the question again? Did there come a time when it
8 was no longer permissible under the state -- Serbian state curriculum for
9 children to be taught in Albanian; yes or no?
10 A. I don't understand your question. What curriculum are you
11 talking about?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Was there ever any time, Mr. Vlahovic, when Albanian
13 children were taught their history, their mathematics, whatever other
14 non-linguistic courses, whether they received that exclusively in Serbian
15 and that where they were not allowed to receive these lessons in
17 That's the question, I think, Mr. Emmerson.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let me tell you, ever since I
19 started working in the school, or since I've been going to school, the
20 Albanian children were taught all subjects in the Albanian language
21 except for the Serbian, which they started learning in the fourth grade,
22 just as we did -- started learning Albanian in the fourth grade. So
23 teachers and professors were all Albanians, except for those who taught
24 Serbian. Those were Serbs.
25 JUDGE ORIE: And that continued during all of the 1990s?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Until 1991. Of course, they
2 continued in the same manner; only they removed Serbian from their
3 curriculum. They did not want to recognise the curriculum of Serbia but
4 they continued to study in Albanian.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The other lessons - I'm focusing on history,
6 mathematics, geography, whatever else - were the children allowed to have
7 these lessons given in their own Albanian language after 1991? In your
8 school, did those who were teaching geography, history, mathematics, were
9 they allowed to speak Albanian to Albanian pupils?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, they were allowed. Nobody
11 prevented them. Specifically in Ljumbarda, I can describe the situation.
12 Children studied in Albanian and the teachers taught in Albanian, but at
13 that time they refused to work according to the curriculum of Serbia, but
14 they chose the curriculum of the state of Albania.
15 MR. EMMERSON:
16 Q. All right. And finally on this matter, I don't want to take up
17 any more time on it, if I had walked into your school in 1997 with an
18 Albanian child and said, Will you please teach this child in Albanian,
19 what would the answer have been, Mr. Vlahovic?
20 A. As far as I'm concerned, I knew the language. I was all right
21 with that. But that had to be agreed with the school.
22 Q. And it wasn't permitted under the curriculum, was it?
23 A. Again, I don't understand you. What do you mean, "not
25 Q. Let's move on. Let's move on to another topic.
1 The picture that you've given us of the conflicts that were
2 taking place over the years before 1998, would it be fair at least to say
3 that there were deep-seated resentments on both sides?
4 A. Well, I don't know. There might have been. But not with
5 everyone, not with every family.
6 Q. I'm not saying with every family, but presumably the Serb
7 families that you say were having their haystacks burned were pretty
8 resentful about it, weren't they? Hmm? Is that right?
9 A. Well, about these families, some of them moved away to other
10 parts, my uncle included.
11 Q. I just want to get a picture of what's going on at the point in
12 time that we are discussing in April. Now, in a witness statement that
13 you made in this case, you said that by the 18th of April, the Serb
14 police had withdrawn from the police station in Irzniq to Baballoq some
15 distance away; is that right?
16 A. I don't know exactly the date, but if you're asking me if they
17 withdrew, yes, they did. They went to Babaloc.
18 Q. I'm not asking you for exactly the date, but you said in your
19 statement that that is something that had already happened by the time
20 you last saw your parents; is that right?
21 A. Yes, that's right.
22 Q. And, of course, you must have known, didn't you, about the
23 incidents that had happened in Drenica, in Likoshan and in Prekaz in
24 which 80 Albanians had been killed at the end of March -- I'm sorry, the
25 end of February and the beginning of March. You knew about those
1 incidents, didn't you?
2 A. I heard about them.
3 Q. And you obviously knew what happened in Gllogjan on the 24th of
4 March, didn't you?
5 A. Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I'm looking at the clock. If you
7 would find a suitable moment soon, then ...
8 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, Your Honour.
9 Q. Once the police withdrew, you've told us that by this time
10 members of the Albanian community had begun to acquire weapons; is that
12 A. Yes, that's true, although they started acquiring them even
13 before that.
14 Q. Yes. So you had a number of Albanians with increasing numbers of
15 weapons, you had a history of tensions between the communities, a number
16 of individual disputes between families, the attacks on Likoshan and
17 Prekaz, what happened in Gllogjan, and then the withdrawal of the police.
18 That's the picture that we have up to the 20th of April, is it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And in your view, Mr. Vlahovic, just to get the picture, did the
21 withdrawal of the police in that situation, given what had happened in
22 Gllogjan and Prekaz, given the presence of weapons, did that provide an
23 opportunity for people with long-standing grievances against their
24 neighbours, to be settling old scores?
25 A. I don't know if it offered an opportunity, but as far as my
1 parents were concerned, we never had any feud with anyone. We just lived
2 in our house. I don't know about the other people.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Would that be a convenient moment?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's a convenient moment.
5 May I make just one short observation? The name of Glodjane, of
6 course, is very often mentioned. Very often it's quite clear that it
7 should be the Glodjane near to Donji or Gornji Ratis.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that whenever reference is made or
10 whenever one of the parties must consider that when Glodjane is mentioned
11 either in the question or in the answer, which is the Glodjane just 2
12 kilometres north from Jablanica that we'll be alerted.
13 MR. EMMERSON: If at any stage I ask anybody a question about the
14 Gllogjan which is north of Jablanica, I will make that absolutely clear.
15 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. Then we will have a break for 20
16 minutes. We'll resume at 10 minutes past 6.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 5.52 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 6.18 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
21 Q. Mr. Vlahovic, you've told us in your evidence about three
22 incidents that happened in the area around Ratishe which caused tension
23 to rise in the period prior to the 20th of April. You told us about the
24 killing of the policeman Slobodan Prascevic, the attack on the Culafic
25 home in Ratishe, and the attack on the Orthodox church in the village.
1 And I just want to see if I can, with you, clarify the dates of these
3 Now, you should know that there is agreement in this case that
4 the police officer Slobodan Prascevic was shot and killed on the 2nd of
5 March, so that would be between the time of the incident in Likoshan and
6 the time of the incident in Prekaz; do you understand?
7 A. Well, that's most probably the case.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, we've also heard evidence from someone who was
9 present at the time of that shooting of Slobodan Prascevic, that the
10 attack on the Culafic home had occurred the day before. Does that sound
11 right to you as well?
12 A. I don't remember the date. Most probably, yes.
13 Q. Thank you. So that would put that incident around about the 1st
14 of March.
15 Now, we've also been told about an interview which was conducted
16 with Nastadin and Jela Culafic by a lady from a non-governmental
17 organisation, and the notes of that interview refer, when speaking to
18 Jela Culafic, to a long-running property dispute about ownership of land
19 between the Culafics and a particular Albanian. Now, you've told us you
20 knew the Culafics personally. Were you aware of that property dispute
22 A. No, I wasn't.
23 Q. And then I want to move on to a number of different individuals,
24 or groups of individuals, that you've told us about, and particularly
25 individual Serb families and how they encountered armed Albanians on or
1 about the 20th of April, all right?
2 Now, you told us this afternoon that on the 22nd of April, you
3 went to Decane Police Station to find out if it was safe to go to your
4 parents' home, and that you were told by the police about five people who
5 had been detained. And you gave us a list of names which we had to
6 clarify: Konstantin Stijovic, Novak Stijovic, Stanisa Radosevic,
7 Milka Stijovic, and Stanisa Popovic?
8 A. Stanislava Popovic, I'm sorry.
9 Q. Stanislava Popovic. Now, you told us that a little later on, you
10 had spoken directly to Konstantin Stijovic and you'd spoken to
11 Novak Stijovic. Can I just ask you this: It wasn't entirely clear to me
12 from your evidence. Was it your understanding from speaking to
13 Konstantin and Novak Stijovic that all five of these people had been
14 detained together or that there were two separate incidents of detention?
15 A. I think it happened on two different occasions, but I'm not sure.
16 Q. Thank you. Well, you spoke to the two of them. Did they tell
17 you that they'd been detained together or separately, Konstantin and
19 A. I didn't ask them that, and they didn't tell me anything about
21 Q. I see. We've seen an interview with Konstantin Stijovic by the
22 same non-governmental organisation and notes of an interview that took
23 place in which he is recorded as saying that nobody hit him or any of the
24 people with him, and that after being questioned they were released. Is
25 that what he told you?
1 A. That's not what he told me.
2 Q. I see. So he told you something different to that, did he?
3 A. Yes, he did.
4 Q. When you were giving evidence about this, this afternoon, you
5 said -- it became a little confused, but you said at one point that he
6 was released when Hilmi Haradinaj, Ramush's father, intervened; is that
7 right? Is that what he told you?
8 A. He said that they slapped him on the face and that his
9 Montenegrin cap fell down. That's what he told me.
10 Q. His cap came off?
11 A. Yes, as a result of the slapping.
12 Q. Did he say anything to you about being released by
13 Hilmi Haradinaj?
14 A. Yes, he told me.
15 Q. And, again, just so that we're clear, were you being told that
16 Konstantin Stijovic, Milka Stijovic, and Stanislava Popovic, the three
17 older people, were detained in one incident, and that Novak Stijovic and
18 Stanisa Radosevic were detained in another incident? Is that what you
19 were being told or not?
20 A. They didn't tell me that. I didn't inquire about whether that
21 happened at the same time or not. We just didn't discuss that.
22 Q. I see. And did Konstantin tell you that he was given a lift away
23 from Gllogjan along with Milka Stijovic and Stanislava Popovic?
24 A. I suppose he was given a lift as far as Prilep. I think it was
25 Prilep, the village of Prilep.
1 Q. And all three of them were unhurt; we can agree on that, can we?
2 A. Not those three. But let me add something. Stanislava Popovic
3 said that she recognised Redzep, and when she asked me, Redzep, my son,
4 is that you, that is when he released her.
5 Q. So Redzep who?
6 A. Redzep Arifaj, father's name Osman.
7 Q. Thank you. Now the Markovic family for a moment. You started to
8 tell us a little bit about that earlier on. They were escorted out of
9 Dashinoc where they lived and given safe passage by a man called
10 Djevdet Sadikaj. Is that what you understood?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And who told you that?
13 A. Milojka told me.
14 Q. Milojka Markovic?
15 A. Yes, Markovic.
16 Q. And this man Djevdet Sadikaj, can you just confirm for the
17 Tribunal, he is the son, isn't he, of Saban Sadikaj, the man that you
18 spoke to later on in Dashinoc, in September?
19 A. Yes, yes. The youngest son. Actually, they have another son,
20 but it doesn't matter.
21 Q. Well, it may matter a little later on. We'll come back to that.
22 But you understood, did you, that Djevdet had gone out of his way to take
23 them via a particular route so that they could safely leave the area.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Did you understand Djevdet Sadikaj to be, later on, a KLA
1 commander in Dashinoc?
2 A. I knew him personally. We were friends. He was the president in
3 Dasinovac and he probably later became a commander.
4 Q. And I just want to ask you about a third family that you
5 mentioned briefly in your evidence. Radun Dabetic. Radun, R-a-d-u-n,
6 Dabetic, D-a-b-e-t-i-c, his wife Lijlja, L-i-j-l-j-a, and their two
7 children. Now, did you hear something about that family and how they
8 left the area?
9 A. When Stanisa Radosevic was returned from Glodjane, he was covered
10 in blood and he wanted to fetch his hunting rifle from home. He -- they
11 were his neighbours, they dropped by. And after he told them something,
12 they went out.
13 Q. Well again, let me put to you something that you said in your
14 witness statement and see if you can confirm that this is what you
15 understood. In the witness statement you made in this case, you said
16 that that family left Dashinoc on the 22nd of April, which would be the
17 Wednesday; is that right?
18 A. I don't know if it was on the 22nd. Most probably it was. Let
19 me just give a minute to refresh my memory. Yes, it was on the 22nd,
20 when those people were detained.
21 Q. And in your statement you said, as I think you've just indicated,
22 that on their way out, they came across a group of armed Albanians who
23 detained them and searched them and then permitted them to go on their
24 way; is that right?
25 A. That's what they told me.
1 Q. Thank you. Now I want to ask you some questions about the
2 inquiries that you and your family made about your parents in the period
3 between the 20th of April, when you last saw them, and the beginning of
4 September, all right? So I'm asking you about inquiries that took place
5 during that period. We'll come to what happened in September a little
6 later on, all right? And I want to get the order correct because I think
7 it got a little bit out of order when you were answering Mr. Dutertre's
8 questions, although we went back over it again?
9 First of all, is it right that the first person that you asked to
10 make inquiries about your family was Tafilj Kuci? He was the first
11 person; yes?
12 A. Yes, he was.
13 Q. And, again, correct me if I've got this wrong, but was he a
14 former student of yours?
15 A. Yes, he was.
16 Q. Now, in your witness statement in this case, you said that you
17 asked him to go on the 23rd of April; that was when you asked him, which
18 would have been the Thursday of that week. Does that sound right to you?
19 A. I think it's right. Give me just a second, please. Yes, I think
20 that was the date.
21 Q. And then you said he came back and said that he, in effect, had
22 been turned away at Prekoluka; is that right?
23 A. No. They didn't just tell him to go back. They wanted to take
24 him to Glodjane, give him a uniform and keep him there.
25 Q. Yes?
1 A. After he returned he told me not to go there.
2 Q. Sorry, that was shorthand on my part. He got as far as Prekoluka
3 and he told you that the men there had tried to persuade him to join the
4 KLA and to put on a uniform and carry a gun, but he had come back, had
5 not gone to Gllogjan to do that, and had gone no further than Prekoluka;
6 is that right?
7 A. That's right. That's what he told me.
8 Q. So you received no information about your parents from him?
9 A. No, because he told me he didn't manage to get there.
10 Q. Yes. Now, the next person who you told us who you sent was
11 Mehmet Goka [sic]; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. For the record, is his surname spelled G-o-k-a [sic]?
14 A. Goga.
15 Q. It's Goga, thank you. And you said that he was from Decane but
16 owned property close to your parents' home; is that right?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. Now, I just want to understand your evidence about this because
19 you told us this afternoon that he came back and spoke to you again;
21 A. Correct, but it was two or three days later, not the same day.
22 Q. Yes. I think in your statement you said that you asked him to go
23 two or three days after the attempt by Tafilj Kuci; is that correct?
24 A. Well, I'm not sure if it's two or three days later that I saw
25 him. Maybe a day or two. But I hadn't seen him for two or three days
1 after because I'd asked him to go there. It may have not been a wise
2 thing to do but ...
3 Q. Just so that the Judges have it clear, there was an interval of
4 deals between Tafilj Kuci going on your behalf and you asking Mehmet Goga
5 to go; is that correct? An interval of some days between those two
6 incidents; correct?
7 A. Several days had passed before he told me that he had gone there.
8 Not much time at any rate.
9 Q. I'm sorry, you do need -- I'm trying to be specific. There were
10 two stages to this. There was an interval of days between Tafilj Kuci
11 going and you asking Mehmet Goga to go, and then a further interval of
12 days between you asking Mehmet Goga to go and him coming back and telling
13 you what he had discovered; is that correct?
14 A. Yes. But it didn't take that long. Altogether, a total of four
15 or five days.
16 Q. Yes. Well, that would be about what I was putting to you.
17 Again, from your witness statement in this case, you suggested that when
18 he came back to you to tell you what he'd seen, it was around about the
19 26th or 27th of April. Does that sound right?
20 A. It sounds likely. I'm not sure about the days, the 26th, the
21 27th, the dates. About five days altogether. I can't be more specific
22 than that.
23 Q. Those dates were dates that you gave to the Prosecution when you
24 were interviewed about this in 2002, and that's where I've taken them
1 So it was roughly -- roughly, was it about a week after you'd
2 last seen your parents that he came back and told you what he had seen;
3 is that right?
4 A. Approximately, yes.
5 Q. Now, you say that -- you told us this afternoon that he said he'd
6 seen your parents, that they were in the house, that their movements were
7 restricted, and that they were being guarded by armed men. Is that what
8 he told you?
9 A. That's right. That's what he told me.
10 Q. I just want you to reflect on that for a moment, because -- and
11 I'll put the passage if I need to, but in a witness statement that you
12 made about this incident in April 2002, about this conversation, you told
13 the Prosecution investigator that you couldn't remember whether or not he
14 had said that the men were armed. You couldn't remember that one way or
15 the other.
16 Now, I'm going to give you an opportunity to reflect on the
17 answer you've given. Did he say the men were armed or did he not, or can
18 you not remember?
19 A. They were armed. That's what he said. I'm certain about that.
20 I didn't ask about the uniforms. But he did tell me about the weapons.
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise. We didn't get the
22 last part of the witness's answer. We just trailed off.
23 MR. EMMERSON: Let me put the question again.
24 Q. Can you think of any reason why, in April 2002, you would have
25 told the Prosecution investigator that you could not remember one way or
1 the other whether he had said that these men were armed or not? Can you
2 think of any reason why you would have said that to the Prosecution
4 A. No reason. Had they not been armed, had they not been guarded,
5 they would have left. They would not just have stayed behind. I really
6 can't think of a single reason. He may not have told me about the
7 uniform. I didn't ask. He told me they were well. He told me that we
8 shouldn't go there because they were under guard by armed men. I do
9 remember that.
10 Q. I see. Did he tell you that there were armed men stationed at
11 their home or just that there were armed men in the area?
12 A. Around their home. I didn't ask if they were inside the house,
13 but they were guarding them. I didn't ask anything else. My impression
14 was they were nearby.
15 Q. Nearby, this was your impression, that they were nearby. It's
16 very important to be specific about this because you're describing a
17 conversation based on what someone else told you they had seen. Now,
18 "nearby" could mean a lot of different things and you've told us a moment
19 ago it was your impression that they were nearby. Now, if this man had
20 told you that there were armed guards standing on your parents' property,
21 that's something you would have been clear about, isn't it? You would
22 have remembered that?
23 A. I don't know. At that time I didn't know what would happen next.
24 I, perhaps, could have tried harder to remember, but this is the best I
25 can do. I am really not certain.
1 Q. It's very important that you be accurate about this,
2 Mr. Vlahovic. Did Mehmet Goga say to you in terms that there were armed
3 men standing on your parents' property, or did he say --
4 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I object to that question.
5 The witness has already been taken to this point about three or four
6 times. He's made it clear, he's made it clear what his recollection is,
7 and the question about whether the men were on the property, whether they
8 were standing there, has already been put to the witness.
9 MR. EMMERSON: Well --
10 MR. DI FAZIO: How many times more is Mr. Emmerson going to
11 repeat this line of questioning?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Just as far as I'll allow him to do that, and this
13 question is allowed.
14 So could you please answer the question, Mr. Vlahovic.
15 Mr. Emmerson stressed very much that it's important to know exactly
16 whether Mehmet Goga said to you about the presence of these men; that
17 they were armed men standing on your parents' property. Did he say this
18 or did he not say this?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said he had seen armed men
20 guarding them, and they weren't allowed to leave. That's what he said.
21 I didn't ask him where precisely these people were. In the house, around
22 the house. He saw them. That's a fact. That means they were there. I
23 asked no more.
24 MR. EMMERSON:
25 Q. I see. So nearby -- when you said a moment ago, "my impression
1 was that they were nearby," I mean "nearby" could have been, for example,
2 at the nearest junction to their house, could it?
3 A. Somewhere they could keep an eye on them. It couldn't have been
4 too far away. They must have been very, very nearby. The next junction
5 would have been too far away.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, we're now entering the realm of making
7 inferences from what was said. Could you please move on.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, of course.
9 Q. The next step in the process, you've told us, was when you
10 arranged to take Faza Haradinaj and her grandson and drop them off in
11 Prilep while they walked to your parents' home; is that right?
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. Now, again, just so we can get the dates clear, in your statement
14 you put that incident as having happened on the 2nd or 3rd of May, so
15 about two weeks after you last saw your parents; is that -- does that
16 accord with your correction?
17 A. No. That was earlier on, I'm sure.
18 Q. Well, you were asked about this when you did the video-conference
19 on the 8th of March and confirmed then that it was the 2nd or 3rd of May
20 when you sent Faza Haradinaj?
21 A. I'm not certain about the date, but I think it was earlier on.
22 Q. I see.
23 A. It may have been as you suggest. My impression is it was earlier
24 on, and I'm not sure about the date.
25 Q. I see. Now, Mr. Vlahovic, in the evidence that you gave this
1 afternoon, you told us that when she came back, she said that she was
2 unable to see your parents; is that right?
3 A. That's not right. It's not that she was unable to see them. She
4 saw them; she just couldn't take them away. She did see them there and
5 she asked who from Decani had visited them, and they said Mehmet Goga,
6 which means that they were still alive.
7 MR. EMMERSON: For Your Honours' note, the relevant entry is
8 today's transcript, page 28, line 10. But so that we have it --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I take it that you've checked that.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: And, of course, there's always the possibility of
12 any error or translation. If that would be the case, I always invite the
13 parties to try to find the proper place and have it verified in such a
14 way that any doubt on that matter is taken away.
15 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. The important point, in a sense, is for the
16 witness to clarify what exactly happened.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
18 MR. EMMERSON:
19 Q. So it's not right that she was unable to see your parents. She
20 did have the opportunity to see them; is that right?
21 A. Yes, she saw them.
22 Q. And did she tell you that she spoke to them?
23 A. Yes. She saw them; she spoke to them. They weren't allowed to
24 leave. They were in the house but were unable to leave.
25 Q. I think you asked her, is that right, to check whether
1 Mehmet Goga had actually been there, to ask your parents whether Mehmet
2 Goga had actually been there. Is that what you did?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And she told you that, having spoken to your parents, he had been
6 A. Yes, but I didn't tell them to ask if Mehmet Goga had been there.
7 I asked about anyone from Decani having visited them, and she said
8 Mehmet Goga had been to see them.
9 Q. Yes. You asked her to ask your parents about that because you
10 didn't really trust Mehmet Goga; is that right?
11 A. I wasn't sure if they were still alive and well. This proved to
12 me that she had seen them and that they were still around. I wanted to
13 be 100 per cent certain on this. That's what I wanted.
14 Q. Could you just address your mind to the specific question I'm
15 putting to you, Mr. Vlahovic. The reason, I'm suggesting to you, that
16 you asked Faza Haradinaj to check your parents -- with your parents
17 whether Mehmet Goga or someone from Decane had been to visit them was
18 because you did not fully trust Mehmet Goga when he told you that he had
19 visited them; is that right?
20 A. No, that wasn't the real reason. The real reason was to make
21 sure that she had seen them, that they were still there, that they were
22 still alive. That was the real, the principal, reason. If I hadn't
23 trusted him, I would never have asked him to go there. I just wanted to
24 make absolutely certain that they were still there. If she hadn't seen
25 them, I wouldn't have know. It wasn't for Mehmet Goga or anyone else.
1 That was my main reason. I knew she had seen them. I knew, therefore,
2 that they were still alive. It wasn't about me trusting him specifically
3 or anyone else.
4 Q. I see. Can I just read to you a passage of the notes that were
5 taken when you were interviewed by videolink?
6 MR. EMMERSON: This is, for Mr. Dutertre's note, page 5 of the
7 proofing notes, at the bottom.
8 Q. I'll read it slowly so it can be translated to you.
9 "Mr. Vlahovic did not fully trust Mehmet Goga, so he had asked
10 Faza Haradinaj to ask his parents if Mr. Goga had visited them, which
11 they confirmed to Faza Haradinaj. This was around the 2nd or 3rd of
13 Is that an accurate record of what you said in the videolink
14 conference; that you had asked her to check in part because you thought
15 Mehmet Goga might be lying to you?
16 A. No, no. Mehmet Goga offered himself, without me asking when we
17 met. He wanted to go and check to see if they were still there.
18 Q. Can I just ask you this: The passage I just read to you,
19 Mr. Vlahovic, is it an accurate record of what you told the lawyers for
20 the Prosecution in the video-conference or not?
21 A. I don't remember saying it. I may have said it, but I certainly
22 didn't mean it.
23 Q. I see.
24 A. The most important thing for me was to make sure that they were
25 still alive, and the only way to do that was for her to go and see if
1 they were still around. So they were there. Had Mehmet Goga preceded
2 her or not, that's another issue. The main thing for me, the principal
3 thing, was to know that they were still around, and that's why I asked
4 Faza to do what she eventually did.
5 Q. Did you ever speak to Faza Haradinaj about this visit again or
6 about your parents again?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So the only news you ever received from Faza Haradinaj was that
9 your parents were still alive in the house?
10 A. Yes. They were unable to leave and were under guard by armed men
11 wearing uniforms all over the place, trenches dug all over the place,
12 that sort of thing, and along the whole road between Prilep and the
13 village of Ratis, which is where she was.
14 Q. So she told you there were armed men in trenches all along the
15 roads and that your parents were, therefore, unable to get out; is that
17 A. She didn't tell me about getting out. She said they were being
18 guarded in the house with armed men lining the road. And she said not to
19 go there.
20 Q. Did she say whether there were armed men on your parents'
22 A. She said there were armed men around the house, that's what she
23 said, guarding them.
24 Q. Again, it's an important question of specifics. "Around the
25 house" could mean a lot of different things. Do you remember now, yes or
1 no, whether she told you that there were armed men on your parents'
2 property? If you don't remember, say so?
3 A. On their property. On their property around the house. I didn't
4 ask specifically whether they were in the house, but she saw them. She
5 saw my parents, she saw them, too.
6 Q. So she did tell you, did she, that there were armed men on the
7 property, on your parents' property? Is that what she told you?
8 A. She said that they were being guarded by armed men, and that they
9 were unable to leave. I didn't ask them if they were on the property. I
10 was interested in them being able to leave, at least in getting my mother
11 out of there, if my father was still unable to leave. Once she was back,
12 she told me that she had not been able to even get my mother out of there
13 because they were being guarded by armed men, so the armed men must have
14 been right there and not around the actual property.
15 Q. But in any event, from what she told you, no armed men had
16 prevented her from going in to visit and speak to your parents, had they?
17 A. That's what she said, that they hadn't.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I'm looking at the clock.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We need another three minutes for another matter in
21 the absence of the witness. Could you find a suitable moment within the
22 next two minutes to ...
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
24 Q. I want, if I may, finally on this topic to put to you a section
25 of a statement that was made by your brother Novak and ask you to confirm
1 whether or not it is accurate.
2 Your brother Novak made a statement to the Prosecution in this
3 case in July 2004, in which he said:
4 "Sometime in May 1998, I heard my parents had been taken away to
5 a headquarters in Jablanica. I was told this from Dino Haradinaj, an
6 Albanian neighbour, who asked his mother Faza Haradinaj to go to Gornji
7 Ratis to check if my parents were okay, and she told Dino that when she
8 got there, the village was empty. I heard from others that they were
9 taken away. The last time I saw my parents alive was the 23rd of April
10 1998. I heard different stories from different people that my parents
11 had been taken away, had been killed, were found alive, et cetera?"
12 Now, that is what your brother Novak is recorded as having told
13 the Prosecution. Did Faza Haradinaj ever suggest to you that your
14 parents had been taken away to Jablanica?
15 A. Not to me.
16 Q. No. And did she ever say to you that the village was empty,
17 Gornji Ratis, when she got there?
18 A. She didn't say; I didn't ask. I asked about my parents. That
19 was all I asked about, not about the village being empty or not.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. You're welcome.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll adjourn for the day, Mr. Vlahovic. I'd like
23 to instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony you have
24 given or you're still about to give, and we'd like to see you back
25 tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, in courtroom II. Now since we have one
1 procedural issue remaining, I'll ask Madam Usher now to escort you out of
2 the courtroom.
3 Madam Usher.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I understand.
5 [The witness stands down]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio or Mr. Dutertre, I don't know who asked
7 for it, but there was an issue - I don't know whether we can deal with it
8 in open session - to do something about proofing notes for which you
9 wanted to inform the Chamber.
10 Mr. Dutertre.
11 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed, Your Honour. I just
12 wanted to inform the Chamber that written observations on proofing are
13 being finalised by Mr. Re. Unfortunately, and we do apologise, we could
14 not file them at 4.00 today as was planned originally; however, a written
15 version of these notes will be disclosed this evening and tomorrow, as
16 early as possible; those written observations will be filed with the
18 JUDGE ORIE: That's not the usual way of dealing with proofing
19 notes. They are communicated to the Defence first and then to the Trial
20 Chamber. It would, at least, be a deviation from practice, unless
21 there's some --
22 MR. EMMERSON: I think we may be speaking at cross-purposes.
23 Mr. Dutertre, I think, is referring to the Prosecution's submissions on
24 the procedure for the audio-taping of proofing sessions which are due in
25 to the Tribunal today.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. EMMERSON: We are ready to file and --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I misunderstood the expression, and I didn't listen
4 to Mr. Dutertre in French, so "the written observations on proofing"
5 which might be not unambiguous language. But that's understood. So we
6 have some delay in the submissions in this respect. But it will soon be
7 there. It will be filed tomorrow, I understand.
8 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, tomorrow morning, as early as
9 possible. And if you think it is useful, Your Honour, a written version
10 could be sent by e-mail to all the parties and to the Chamber as well
11 this very evening.
12 JUDGE ORIE: As long as it's there. And if you would like to
13 send a courtesy copy, I cannot promise you that between 11.00 this
14 evening and my first meeting tomorrow at 8.00 I'll start reading them,
15 but we'll read them soon. And I certainly would not oppose against
16 sending a courtesy copy by e-mail. I take it --
17 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, we'd obviously be grateful for the
18 Prosecution's submissions as early as possible. As I indicated a moment
19 ago, we're ready to file. We propose to file immediately, or very
20 shortly after we rise, and we'll provide a copy directly to the Chamber
21 as soon as we do.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's understood. Thank you very much for
23 your information.
24 No further matter? Yes, Mr. Dutertre.
25 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] A second issue, Your Honour, if
1 you'll allow me. The Prosecution is writing written observations as well
2 in order to receive in advance the documents that the Defence wishes to
3 use during the cross-examination of witnesses.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it, then, that that will be part of
5 your submissions and you are seeking reciprocity in some respect. Is
6 that what I have to understand? We'll see and read it and --
8 MR. EMMERSON: I think again there may be a crossed wire here.
9 On Monday, Your Honours will recall, we filed a document setting out a
10 suggested procedure for the notification each Wednesday of the witnesses
11 the Prosecution was proposing to call. It's a different process from the
12 proofing notes. And Mr. Re indicated that he would wish to use that
13 suggestion as an opportunity to ask Your Honours to order that the
14 Defence should give advance notice to the Prosecution of exhibits that
15 they might wish to cross-examine a witness on, and it will come as no
16 surprise to Your Honour that we will have some strong submissions to make
17 in response to that. But that is a separate exchange of pleadings.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.
19 First of all, the Chamber appreciates that we get announced if
20 there's any delay, et cetera, et cetera. At the same time, perhaps at
21 this time of the day, I'm not sharp enough anymore to make a distinction
22 between all what we can expect. Perhaps the best way is, then, to leave
23 it to us to read it first, but of course we're quite happy, if there are
24 any delays, that notice is given to the Chamber so that the other party
25 can respond, if necessary. These kind of delays of half a day, I would
1 say, would not be dramatic.
2 MR. EMMERSON: Could I have ten seconds of Your Honours' time
3 before you rise?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. EMMERSON: Simply this: This cross-examination is taking
6 longer than I had hoped. I simply want to get an indication from
7 Your Honours in advance of how long you would feel comfortable for me to
8 continue, because I don't want to put myself in a position where Your
9 Honours indicate to me that I have tried your patience. And so I would
10 expect to be able to complete within the hour tomorrow, but that is
11 longer than I had indicated, and so I wanted to raise it with you, and if
12 Your Honours were of the view that it should be shortened, then ...
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: If you're able to finish within the hour tomorrow,
15 even if it's longer than indicated, the Chamber will accept that.
16 MR. EMMERSON: I'm very grateful.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We stand adjourned until tomorrow, quarter past
18 2.00, courtroom II.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 22nd day of
21 March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.