1 Friday, 23 March 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.30 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 The Chamber would like to go into private session.
11 [Private session]
11 Pages 1776-1809 redacted. Private session.
13 [Closed session]
11 Pages 1811-1820 redacted. Closed session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 One of the issues on our agenda -- yes, perhaps we first deal
8 with a few documents that are now, as I understand, are now in the
9 electronic system. I'm specifically asking your attention to whether we
10 have complete translations when we will decide on whether to admit any of
11 these documents. We have D14 at this moment, which is a list of members
12 of the special police unit PJP. Any objection? If you --
13 MR. RE: I apologise. I just spilled water all over my computer
14 monitor --
15 JUDGE ORIE: It is better than on the key board, Mr. Re, I
16 promise you.
17 MR. EMMERSON: Well, it is the keyboard.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it's the keyboard. It could have disastrous
20 Yes. Perhaps another way of dealing with it is that
21 Madam Registrar prints out for all parties the list I have in front of me
22 so that we can go through it more quickly soon.
23 Madam Registrar.
24 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, soon, or a bit later, Madam Registrar will
1 provide the parties with a list I've got in front of me which is about
2 D14 up to and including D21 and P28, 29, and P30. We'll deal with it in
3 a quicker way if we have all received that list.
4 Then the other matter is: How much time would the Defence need
5 to give further oral submissions in response to the Prosecution's
6 submissions in relation to the recording of proofing sessions?
7 MR. EMMERSON: I think if delivered orally it's likely to be in
8 the region of about an hour, slightly less perhaps.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I suggest that we don't do that now.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE ORIE: Under those circumstances, the Chamber would prefer
12 to receive -- although we had in mind to receive your submissions orally,
13 to receive it on paper and -- to receive it on paper. That's for all
14 three counsel. If the Prosecution would like to respond to the
15 submissions made by the Defence, the Prosecution is then invited also to
16 make these written submissions.
17 MR. RE: I apologise. The -- both parties have filed written
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. RE: I understand the Defence wishes to respond orally to our
21 written submissions.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, they were more or less invited to do it -- or
23 they indicated that they wanted to respond because there were certain
24 matters not put rightly, from what I understand. They wanted to correct
25 that. We thought at that time that it might take such time if we could
1 receive them orally, because we might have had time available today, but
2 if it takes an hour we'd rather receive it in writing.
3 MR. RE: No, I understand that. The Prosecution's position is
4 that there are -- there is one major legal error in the Defence
5 submissions which requires correction. We're certainly happy to do it
6 orally; however, if you look at the two binders here, this is the --
7 we've prepared books of authorities. So there's actually two binders
8 full of material which -- I think we would appreciate Your Honours having
9 a look at before --
10 JUDGE ORIE: May I -- that would -- if you would make this
11 available to the Prosecution [sic] and to the Chamber. Are these the
12 sources that we find in the annexes, mainly that's domestic practice?
13 MR. RE: It's everything. It's everything except ICTY and ICTR
14 law. Everything else which we have referred to, domestic, international
15 articles is collected. We've got copies for the Court.
16 JUDGE ORIE: All the legal stuff?
17 MR. RE: All the legal stuff is collected in one binder and we
18 would like Your Honours to read it first.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course if I would have said that you should
20 make it available to the Prosecution, I meant to say to make it available
21 to the Defence. Mr. Re, your new keyboard is there.
22 If you would provide this material to the Defence, then the
23 Defence would include it, I take it, in their response.
24 When could we expect the written submissions, Mr. Emmerson?
25 MR. EMMERSON: Would Your Honour say Tuesday?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
2 MR. RE: That's fine. We have filed all this material. We just
3 printed out for the convenience of the Court. We filed a book of
4 authorities and a glossary. So it's all in the court system. It just
5 takes the registry a long time to digest this stuff that's why we printed
6 it out.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I've just not seen it. Tuesday, could you make any
8 additional written submissions in writing by Tuesday, as well? How much
9 time would you need orally?
10 MR. RE: I would whatever time the Defence is -- I would want
11 equality of arms here if the Defence wants an hour --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Equality of arms is the following: That written
13 submissions are expected. If, however, you would consider that you could
14 make your submissions orally within five minutes, I would allow you to do
15 so. The Defence certainly is -- so the choice is either orally within
16 five minutes or in writing.
17 MR. RE: I'm sorry, I misunderstand. Is Your Honour saying both
18 sides will get five minutes because both sides are putting submissions
19 on --
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, what I'm saying is you can choose either to do
21 it orally and then you get five minutes; if you think more, then you have
22 to do it in writing.
23 MR. RE: Does that apply to the Defence as well?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Defence has said they need an hour, so
25 therefore they are instructed to file in writing, and they don't get the
1 five minutes anymore.
2 MR. RE: Thank you. I hear what you're saying.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. So by Tuesday, either five minutes or a
4 written submission. That's understood. That's ordered, I would say.
5 Then -- yes. Another matter and that is related to Mr. Re.
6 Could the Prosecution provide the Chamber with all the documents created
7 or used by the OTP which concerned the conduct of OTP staff in proofing
8 sessions such as policies and procedures, other forms of guidance
9 concerning the conduct of proofing sessions, if they do exist.
10 MR. RE: Yes, I will.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then we would like to receive that by Tuesday
12 as well.
13 The next question -- procedural issue, Mr. Re: When will the
14 Prosecution file the corrected version of the 92 bis motion? I earlier
15 mentioned that we had been in touch with the Prosecution in an e-mail
16 asking for a corrected version of the 92 bis motion. When do you think
17 you would file that?
18 MR. RE: I'm sorry, there's a draft of -- I just can't remember.
19 I think I may have a draft; I'd have to check.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
21 MR. RE: I just can't answer it as I stand.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we would like to hear from you at a
23 later stage, preferably today, if you could find out by the next break.
24 MR. RE: Yeah.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then still to be done is the re-arrangement of the
1 proposed exhibits in relation to Witness Andjelkovic.
2 Mr. Re, when could the Chamber expect the re-arranged exhibits?
3 MR. RE: Would Tuesday be acceptable?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I -- since no Defence counsel jumps up, Tuesday
5 is fine.
6 Then there's another matter. There is still pending a request
7 for a subpoena in relation to a book, and the Prosecution needed some
8 time to find out whether the book they received is the relevant book.
9 Are you already in a position to tell us whether you would withdraw that
10 request for subpoena?
11 MR. RE: If Defence counsel can put on the record that that book
12 is the one the subject of the subpoena, I will take -- I will accept that
14 MR. EMMERSON: I can put on the record that the book that I
15 handed to Mr. Re had the same title and the same authors as the book
16 that's mentioned in his subpoena request, and that's something he can
17 read for himself.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I take it that you're not aware of any
19 different versions of this same book?
20 MR. EMMERSON: I am not aware of any other versions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That's then clear.
22 MR. RE: On that basis, we do withdraw our application for
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then it's on the record that you have withdrawn your
25 request for subpoena in this respect. That was the application that was
1 filed on the 9th of February of 2007.
2 Yes. There's another matter not totally unrelated to the matters
3 we discussed earlier this afternoon. The Chamber would like to -- that
4 the Prosecution provide general and updated information about the
5 situation for witnesses or potential witnesses in war crimes trials in
7 The staff of the Chamber is aware of -- we have not read it, I
8 immediately add to that, but our staff has, upon our request, inquired
9 into the existence of public information that could be of interest when
10 assessing motions for protective measures. Some titles have been brought
11 to our attention as possible sources of information, but, as I said, we
12 haven't read it, neither has the staff.
13 The Defence is invited to provide such information or any
14 material that it considers relevant on this specific issue. The Chamber
15 will then consider whether to assign exhibit numbers on any of the
16 material submitted, and I'm just at this moment giving some titles our
17 attention was drawn to. Again, we haven't read it. That's an OSCE
18 report of December 2006: "Review of the Criminal Justice System in
19 Kosovo" with a specific first chapter on the protection of witnesses in
20 the criminal justice system.
21 There is an OSCE report April 2003 until October 2004: "Review
22 of the Criminal Justice System in Kosovo." A report with a similar title
23 covers March 2002 until April 2003. This last report deals entirely with
24 witness protection; whereas, the earlier one I mentioned, the 2003/2004,
25 only some pages deal with witness protection and also describes, as far
1 as we were informed, some incidents in connection with domestic trials.
2 The Chamber is also informed that there are -- an article has
3 been published dealing with the issue; one of them being an article by
4 Michael Farquhar with the title: "Witness Intimidation: A Serious
5 Problem in Kosovo," published by the Institute for War and Peace
6 Reporting, dated 1st of April, 2005.
7 Another article by Jeta Xharra, I don't know whether the
8 pronunciation is right, with the title: "Kosovo's Wild West," as we
9 understand published by the same institute, dated 18th of February, 2005.
10 There may well be other publications or there may well be more
11 information available from UNMIK, UNHCR, Council of Europe, Commission of
12 Human Rights or NGOs, including Human Rights Watch and Amnesty
13 International. We have not fully -- we have no full survey of what
14 exists, but the Chamber would very much like to receive as broad
15 information as possible but focusing on this specific subject.
16 MR. RE: Could I just ask Your Honour in what form do you want
17 it? Do you want us to provide it -- to put it through the e-court system
18 or to provide -- or to find this and provide it in hard copy to -- and,
19 of course, to the Defence and the Trial Chamber, or -- as a potential
20 marked for exhibit -- exhibit marked for identification exhibit to go
21 into the system? Or is it for background information? Or is it relevant
22 to witness protection issues? In what form do we take it that the Trial
23 Chamber wants it?
24 JUDGE ORIE: If you find it first, then we'll inform you in what
25 form we would like to receive it. You'll hear that early next week.
1 Yes, Mr. Re. Do you have any idea on how much time it would take
2 you to find this material?
3 MR. RE: Your Honours are obviously much better informed than we
4 are -- than I am about the existence of this matter. Perhaps if we could
5 liaise with whoever in Chambers has identified this, which would assist
6 us to find it, because I can't tell you how long it would take.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it more logical that you get in touch with VWS
8 because they are the specialists in the field, I would say. And to be
9 quite honest, I don't know whether this list I received, I haven't read
10 any of it, whether VWS has been assisted -- assisting in creating this
11 list, but you're encouraged to first contact VWS. If that doesn't lead
12 to anything, then, of course, in a transparent way you can approach the
13 Chamber staff, that is always copy to all Defence teams.
14 Then, meanwhile, everyone has the list prepared by
15 Madam Registrar in front of him or her.
17 MR. EMMERSON: Can I answer Your Honour's question? As far as
18 D14 is concerned --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. EMMERSON: -- that is a document which currently exists in
21 English. There is available instantly a Serbian translation of it. In
22 fact, it was originally a Serbian document -- no, I apologise in this.
23 That is my own summary document, apparently. It's -- I was confusing
24 that for D16.
25 So that document, that single sheet, D14, is only in -- it's only
1 a list of names and the name of the PJP is in Serbian on it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, usually -- well, most important is
3 that there is a copy available to the Defence in a language the accused
4 understands, so I leave it now to you, Mr. Emmerson.
5 May I take it, Mr. Re, that you do not insist on having a Serbian
6 translation attached to it?
7 MR. EMMERSON: It's in Serbian.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, it's in Serbian. Just a list.
9 Are you insisting on an English translation of that list?
10 MR. EMMERSON: It's a list of names, so there isn't really an
11 English translation for the names, other than for the name of the
12 organisation itself.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could take care that at least whatever
14 is not just name but headings or titles or what the organisation is, that
15 at least --
16 MR. EMMERSON: That is --
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- a translation limited to that. You don't have to
18 copy again all of the names, but at least that every text attached to
19 these names is available in the translation.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll then wait for the admission until we
22 have got that.
23 MR. EMMERSON: That can be supplied on Monday.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 D15 --
1 MR. EMMERSON: D15 is in English. It's the investigator's
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. EMMERSON: So there's no request from the Defence's point of
5 view to have it translated into Albanian.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re ...
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, for D15 just in English. That's fine as far
9 as the Prosecution is concerned?
10 MR. RE: Oh, yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Then I have to ask other counsel, Mr. Guy-Smith and
12 Mr. Harvey, whether they would also be -- whether they would insist on
13 the party that tenders it, that's Defence for Mr. Haradinaj, whether you
14 would like to have a translation available for your clients?
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, we're satisfied with the state of the record.
16 Thank you very much.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
18 MR. HARVEY: So are we. Thank you, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. D15, any objection? Yes, Mr. Emmerson. Then
20 because we could decide then that that's admitted into evidence.
22 MR. EMMERSON: The position with D16 is that when produced in
23 hard copy, all we had available was the English statement producing it
24 and the list in English as produced to us, or otherwise as obtained from
25 the JDB. We have now found and entered into the system the Serbian or
1 the B/C/S original. So that is now, I understand it, entered into the
2 system accompanying that document and so that is ready for admission.
3 JUDGE ORIE: So it's attached to the English version?
4 MR. EMMERSON: It's linked to the English version.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be sufficient for you, I
6 take it.
7 Yes. Then any -- if there are no objections, Mr. Re, or are
9 MR. RE: To its admission into evidence, no.
10 JUDGE ORIE: No. Then that's admitted into evidence.
11 I take it that if one counsel tenders a document, that I would
12 explicitly like to hear from other counsel if they have any problems with
13 that document to be admitted into evidence. I'm not asking that all the
14 time, I take it that's the situation, but please alert me when you have
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Absolutely.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Mr. Harvey.
19 MR. HARVEY: We certainly will, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we move to D17.
21 MR. EMMERSON: D17 and D18 are both the print-outs from the
22 International Crisis Group reports.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. EMMERSON: They were supplied by the Prosecution in hard
25 copy. My understanding is that they have not yet been entered into the
1 system electronically. I see -- I see the registrar nodding.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I take it then that if Mr. Re has an
3 electronic copy, that he provides it to you, which might make it easier
4 to have it introduced into the system.
5 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, that would be helpful. As far as the
6 translation is concerned, the Haradinaj Defence does not insist on a
7 translation into Albanian.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Other Defence counsel?
9 I see Mr. Guy-Smith nodding no, and Mr. Harvey the same.
10 So we'll wait with a decision until the documents have been
11 entered into the system.
13 MR. EMMERSON: D19 is the statement in English producing the list
14 of members of the PJP in March 1999.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. EMMERSON: There is a Serbian original attached to that, and
17 that -- both documents are entered into the system and linked and is
18 ready for admission.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Any objection, Mr. Re?
21 MR. RE: No, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then D19 is admitted into evidence.
24 MR. EMMERSON: D20 and 21 --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. EMMERSON: -- are the manuscript-completed hard copies of the
2 Council for the Defence of Human Rights versions of the two statements
3 which seem to be the genesis of the ICG documents, together with
4 translations which at the moment are provisional only.
5 JUDGE ORIE: So we wait for a final translation and we'll then
7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I think that ball is in the Prosecution's
8 court because it is they who have taken the view that -- that those
9 translations need to be checked and are checking them.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because they are provisional translations.
11 Mr. Re, when will you hear whether the provisional translation --
12 now, these are provisional translations prepared by whomever on behalf of
13 the Defence?
14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Usually it's then not for the Prosecution to
16 verify whether the translation is correct, but just submit it perhaps to
17 the CLSS in order to get -- I mean, if you want to have it admitted into
18 evidence, then we need an official translation --
19 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- and not just a provisional translation against
21 which the Prosecution does not object. That's --
22 MR. EMMERSON: I only said what I did because Mr. Dutertre said
23 on the record about those documents that the Prosecution was postponing
24 its position on their admission into evidence whilst it had them checked.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's their position, but that doesn't mean
1 that --
2 MR. EMMERSON: Very well, we will --
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- we do nothing.
4 MR. EMMERSON: We will submit them and have the translations --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Official translations.
6 MR. EMMERSON: -- verified and officialised.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might interject since you've raised the
9 issue of translation, I should inform the Chamber that there's a
10 potential difficulty with that in the absence of an order from the
11 Chamber with regard to these particular documents, as well as other
12 translations. They may not be done. So we'll proceed with that. The
13 reason I'm raising this is the exact same thing happened with a rough
14 translation of the Norwegian documents you have before you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will -- unless the parties would
16 consider this improper, we'll get in touch with the CLSS to see what is
17 needed in order to have these documents -- the translation verified or
18 translated so that they are in the system as soon as possible.
19 MR. EMMERSON: I'm very grateful for that --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. EMMERSON: -- intervention.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Then next one we have P28, which is a photograph.
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, and P29.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, two photographs. They are not under seal, so I
25 could say the first one, photograph Milovan Vlahovic; the second one of
1 Milka Vlahovic.
2 MR. EMMERSON: My recollection was that those documents had
3 already been the subject of admission, but that's obviously my memory
4 playing tricks on me.
5 JUDGE ORIE: If -- Madam Registrar is the only one who's -- I do
6 agree that we usually do that with photographs, but I don't know -- I
7 don't remember whether we did it this time.
8 Well, if not --
9 MR. EMMERSON: Certainly no objection.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- admitted into evidence then they are now, at
11 least, admitted into evidence.
12 Then we have one exhibit, P30, under seal, which is a DNA report.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I still wonder whether that should remain under
16 MR. EMMERSON: Well --
17 JUDGE ORIE: I think we raised the issue before.
18 MR. EMMERSON: -- it wasn't raised by the Prosecution, I think,
19 at the time. The position is that when those documents were disclosed -
20 and I'll be corrected from my left if I'm wrong about this - they were
21 disclosed on terms which required them to be considered by counsel only
22 because the names of the donors of the samples were --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it was the --
24 MR. EMMERSON: As well as genetic information. So in the long
25 run, it's a matter for the Prosecution to decide how much assistance,
1 given that there's going to be nobody here to interpret these documents
2 for Your Honours, it is to have genetic information recorded and
3 exhibited in documents before the Tribunal, but it's been marked for
4 identification. I don't know whether it's tendered for admission. I've
5 got no opposition to it, but I'm not sure how much --
6 JUDGE ORIE: The Prosecution is invited to give it some thought
7 on how to deal with this material, and it is completely in English. Of
8 course, if the parties could agree on: At that day, a DNA report was
9 made and identified remains, et cetera --
10 MR. EMMERSON: It is all agreed.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Then perhaps to deal with it in a
12 different way and not to have all kind of other information because I do
13 understand that also other persons are in this report.
14 The Chamber would like to then have an exact formulation of what
15 exactly is agreed upon in this respect.
16 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
17 JUDGE ORIE: And it remains marked for identification.
18 I'm informed that P28 and P29 has been admitted for the first
19 time today. Yes.
20 I have no further procedural matters.
21 Then I suggest that --
22 MR. EMMERSON: There is one further --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. EMMERSON: -- very short procedural matter.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. EMMERSON: This afternoon after we sat, I received copies of
2 a letter from the Prosecution responding to the Defence request from
3 Monday for advanced notification of witnesses to be called for the
4 following week. I haven't yet had a chance to see it but it's there. We
5 also received a motion from the Prosecution seeking an order from the
6 Trial Chamber that the Defence be required to give advanced notice of any
7 exhibits it intends to deploy in cross-examination. That is firmly
8 opposed and we are in a position to provide written submissions in
9 relation to it, but I'm a little anxious that we're stacking up quite a
10 lot of written submissions in quite a short period of time. And I wonder
11 whether Your Honours would extend the period of time for it needs a
12 considered reply --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Until --
14 MR. EMMERSON: Until the end of next week.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
16 MR. RE: Given that we're in -- we would oppose that. Given that
17 we are in trial it is the practice of every Trial Chamber currently
18 sitting to -- for that order to be made and has been for some time. In
19 our submission the Defence does not need eight or seven days effectively
20 to respond to putting forward something opposing what is happening --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact that Mr. Emmerson would
22 have offered reply within two or three days if, as he said, there are not
23 a lot of other issues on which the Chamber would like to receive written
25 MR. EMMERSON: I note that it's taken the Prosecution five days
1 to respond to our request from Monday. The position is, and again, just
2 for the record --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let's keep it short. The time you asked for is
5 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: On the 14th Mr. Re was to have a discussion with
9 the head of the Department of Justice in Kosovo regarding matters as I
10 will call UNMIK generically --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Article 70? Is that --
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Correct.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: As well as any further RFAs or other matters as
15 they relate to witnesses who are going to be called in these proceedings.
16 I don't believe that we've had an update on that at all.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's an issue revisited many times, Mr. Re.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Re.
20 MR. RE: The last update I had was a conversation, I think,
21 with -- definitely with Mr. Guy-Smith. It might have been on Monday this
22 week saying the two of us would and other Defence counsel would sit down
23 and try and thrash out something we could take to UNMIK. In terms of
24 that conversation that was in relation to a conversation Mr. Guy-Smith
25 had with them and I rang them and there was nothing further to add. So
1 we might be able to resolve something if we have further discussions.
2 If I can clearly find out exactly in writing - and I think that
3 was what was going to happen - exactly what the Defence seeks in relation
4 to each matter, we might be able to advance it. I'm not sure we have
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith do you think you could be of any
7 assistance to Mr. Re in this respect?
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'll be more than happy to make up another list.
9 I've had now conversations with various representatives at UNMIK. I
10 understand what the UNMIK position is very clearly and I think that Mr.
11 Re needs -- understands what he needs to do, but I'll help him in that
12 regard because I really would like to get this matter resolved as soon as
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I take it that Mr. Re appreciates that very
15 much and let's try to avoid that this becomes a never-ending story.
16 MR. RE: There's one more procedural issue in relation to written
17 submissions and I'm now going the other way. Last week Your Honours
18 asked us to give written submissions in on the issue of blood-feud and
19 the notice the Defence must give by Monday. Given the amount of written
20 work we've had to do and I do sympathise with the Defence position and
21 now I'm giving the opposite now. We simply can't get it in by Monday.
22 If you could give us until Friday we would be in a much better position
23 to -- and the Defence to file those submissions, but we simply can't get
24 it done by Monday.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I'm not mistaken, that was a submission which
1 the Prosecution was going to put forth their position and then we would
2 respond in due course. I'm more than happy to give the Prosecution as
3 much time as they need in order to cobble together those arguments and
4 I'll respond in due course.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Despite that there was some hesitation to give you
6 until next Friday, you are -- you take a generous position.
7 Mr. Re, I take it that other Defence counsel agree as well. You
8 asked until Friday. Yes, until Friday.
9 Mr. Emmerson.
10 MR. EMMERSON: It simply requires then a further period of time
11 for the Defence to respond --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, that goes without saying.
13 MR. EMMERSON: I'm not sure when Your Honour would want that
14 response, but --
15 JUDGE ORIE: It also depends a bit, I think, on what Mr. Re
17 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes a fair time for a response depends on the
19 content of what is submitted.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- yes, finally, one of the things I -- if I
22 remember well, I missed in the submissions until now on proofing notes is
23 any expression of whether this should be a reciprocal system, whether it
24 would be valid for all parties. If further submissions are made, the
25 Chamber would very much like to have the views of the parties on that
1 included. Yes.
2 Then, Mr. Re, any other matter?
3 MR. RE: The only other matter I wished to raise was in relation
4 to the next witness's testimony, but I would like to do that in private
5 session before the witness comes in.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.
7 Then we turn into private session.
8 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 --- On resuming at 5.45 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, are you ready to call your next witness,
19 which I do understand will be Drago Stojanovic?
20 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
22 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, can you hear me in a language you
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence in this court, you're
5 required to make a solemn declaration that you will speak the truth, the
6 whole truth, and nothing but the truth. May I invite you to make that
7 declaration, of which the text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic. You'll first be examined
11 by counsel for the Prosecution.
12 Mr. Re or -- yes.
13 Mr. Re, you may proceed.
14 MR. RE: Thank you.
15 WITNESS: DRAGOSLAV STOJANOVIC
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Examination by Mr. Re:
18 Q. Good evening, Mr. Stojanovic. Is your name Drago or Dragoslav
20 A. Good evening to you. Dragoslav.
21 Q. Is your date of birth the 1st of January, 1966?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where were you born?
24 A. In Dubrava, the village of Dubrava.
25 Q. Where is that?
1 A. Decani municipality.
2 Q. Where is it in relation to Glodjane?
3 A. Just next to Glodjane, the end of Glodjane and the beginning of
4 Dubrava, it actually borders on both.
5 Q. Were you living there in 1998?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Who were you living with in 1998?
8 A. With my mother and sister.
9 Q. What are their names?
10 A. And my remaining brokers and sisters. Ljubica and Dragica --
11 Q. I'm sorry, can you tell us again the names of your mother and
12 sister and your remaining brokers and sisters. Just list them for us.
13 THE INTERPRETER: There was overlap; the interpreters didn't
14 catch the first name.
15 Could the witness please be asked to move closer to the
16 microphone; we can barely hear him. Thank you.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel for Prosecution is kindly asked to
18 switch off the small left microphone.
19 MR. RE:
20 Q. We didn't get the names of your mother, sister, and family --
21 other family members who were living with you in 1998.
22 A. Ljubica, Dragica. In 1998, they were living with me, and the
23 others were living in Decani, Djakovica, Belgrade, and so on.
24 Q. What is your ethnic origin or your ethnicity?
25 A. I'm a Serb, a Montenegrin.
1 Q. How many Serb or Montenegrin families were living in Dubrava in
3 A. Just ours.
4 Q. How many Albanian families were there?
5 A. 27 of those.
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And others? Other groups maybe?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, none.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My apologies, there was a - how
10 should I put it - Catholic family, a single one.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This is Catholic Albanians?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yeah.
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. Is Mijat Stojanovic your brother?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Where was he living in 1998?
18 A. In Belgrade, but he came over a lot.
19 Q. Who is Veselin Stijovic?
20 A. My cousin.
21 Q. When you say "cousin," can you better describe the relationship?
22 Is he the son of your mother's brother, for example? Or what is the
24 A. He's the son of my mother's sister.
25 Q. Where was your family house in relation to Ramush Haradinaj's
1 family house?
2 A. Mine was at the far end of Dubrava, and his was at the beginning
3 of Glodjane.
4 Q. What was the -- what is the approximate distance between the two
6 A. About 150 metres, give or take a metre or two.
7 Q. Did you know Ramush Haradinaj in 1998?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. How did --
10 A. And before, too.
11 Q. How long have you known him for?
12 A. I have known him since elementary school.
13 Q. Did you attend school together?
14 A. We used to travel to school together in Rznic with all the other
16 Q. I want to show you a photograph, please.
17 MR. RE: Can Exhibit P10 please be displayed in e-court.
18 Q. I'm going to show you a map, an overhead map.
19 While that's coming, I might just ask you: What was your
20 occupation in 1998?
21 A. I worked at the school. I was the handyman.
22 Q. All right. Can you just have a look at this map, please, and can
23 you see on the house -- I think the village of Dubrava actually has a red
24 circle around it. Yes, I'm sorry. I'll withdraw that. Please don't
25 translate that.
1 Can you please have a look at the map in front of you. Can you
2 see the village of Dubrava there?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Are you able to take a pen, which the court usher will give to
5 you, and I want you to mark with a circle -- firstly, before you mark,
6 just don't go any further, I'm going to ask you to mark two things on it.
7 One is where your house was, and the other was where Ramush Haradinaj's
8 house was. So I want you to mark your house with a circle and Ramush
9 Haradinaj's with a cross.
10 We could make it larger for you, if it assists. Would you like
11 it larger?
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please make it larger.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A little, yes, please.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Even a bit more, because otherwise the markings will
15 become unclear. This is the right size, I would say.
16 MR. RE: Right.
17 Q. Can you --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, perhaps you first ask the witness whether he
19 can perhaps orient himself on this map, because otherwise I know what's
20 going to happen.
21 MR. RE: Quite so.
22 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, are you able to -- without marking, are you able
23 to see where your house is and where Mr. Haradinaj's house is on this
24 map? Before you mark, just tell us whether you can do that.
25 A. I just don't know how the houses are marked. What stands for the
1 houses? The dots perhaps.
2 Q. It would appear so. They would appear to be buildings?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any dispute as to whether what is the house
4 of the Haradinajs and the house of -- is there --
5 MR. EMMERSON: I have to say on this particular map, I'm not
6 certain. I mean, I've seen them and I've seen photographs of both.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. EMMERSON: But I'm not certain on the map, and I wouldn't
9 want to give evidence about that.
10 JUDGE ORIE: But I'm wondering, Mr. Re, if the parties would
11 agree where to find that, whether the building is on the map or not, but
12 where to find these houses. Then if pictures are there, there could be
13 no confusion anymore. And I know that marking on maps for persons who
14 are not used to marking on maps is usually dramatic. I'm not -- I'm not
15 objecting, but ask you to consider reconsidering whether it makes any
17 MR. RE: I'll just ask the witness another question to see
18 whether we can go any further.
19 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, you've heard what His Honour has said. Do you
20 think you can work out where your house is and where Mr. Haradinaj's is?
21 If you can't, we'll move on.
22 A. It's very difficult for me to get my bearings.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on then, Mr. Re.
24 MR. RE: Okay. Thank you.
25 Q. I want you to describe for the Court the land your family owned.
1 A. My family owned 8.5 hectares of land. It was a single piece of
2 land by the road. On two sides there was a road, and on the third side
3 was the Haradinaj estate, Haxhija Haradinaj, and then the accused's. On
4 the fourth side it bordered on the late Nazija's estate. He sold -- the
5 former owner sold a piece of land to us on Tapil [phoen]. So the total
6 surface of the land was 8.5 hectares.
7 Q. Was it farming land?
8 A. Most of it, yes.
9 Q. How many --
10 A. Most of it.
11 Q. How many buildings were on it?
12 A. There was a house, there was a stable, a workshop, a garage, a
13 tobacco-drying plant or a shed. There was -- and a hen-coop 16 by 3
14 metres. These were all solid buildings.
15 Q. And on the map in front of us, which is Exhibit P10, was your
16 land located on the right-hand side between Gllogjan and Gramocelj? Have
17 I accurately described where it is?
18 A. Not Gramocelj.
19 Q. Where road are you referring --
20 A. Dubrava towards Glodjane, so that would be the last estate
21 towards Glodjane.
22 Q. Would it be near where the word "Saptej" is written on the map?
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Excuse me, the word "Saptej" is written on the
24 map two times, so this is a confusing question.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 MR. RE:
2 Q. There's two Saptejs. There's one underneath Gllogjan, and
3 there's one just to the right above Dubrava.
4 A. That's one of the Saptejs. Actually, there was only one. Only
5 there's a road leading from Glodjane to Saptej and an old road to Dubrava
6 which also leads to Saptej.
7 Q. The two roads you are talking about or you described bordering
8 your property, which roads are they?
9 A. I can show you here, if you wish.
10 MR. RE: It may have reached the point where he could assist us,
11 Your Honour.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. RE:
14 Q. Could you please draw on the map the approximate boundaries of
15 your property?
16 A. This is the Gramocelj-Glodjane road. That's the main road, this
17 one here. It passes by my estate. Somewhere here is where my estate
18 should be.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Could we invite the witness then now to mark that
20 with a pen, since he seems to have found it.
21 Madam Usher, could you assist the witness in taking the
22 electronic pen? Ask him to mark the boundaries of his property on the
24 Witness, could you please, with the assistance of -- if you found
25 your estate, could you please mark that -- oh, yes, I'm looking at the
1 wrong one. I'm sorry.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did, but I cannot pin-point my
3 house precisely.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: But this is about where your property was? Thank
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. I was looking at the wrong screen.
9 MR. RE: Might that be marked? I might get the witness to return
10 to this map at a later stage.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 Madam Registrar, this would be number ...?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P31,
14 marked for identification.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it still remains as it is now, so that
16 further markings can be made. Yes.
17 MR. RE:
18 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, do you know someone called Smajl Haradinaj?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. And who is he?
21 A. Ramush Haradinaj's uncle, that means his father's brother.
22 Q. What about Daut Haradinaj, do you know him?
23 A. He is Ramush Haradinaj's brother.
24 Q. Do you know someone called Besnik Haradinaj?
25 A. I think that he's the uncle's son, Ramush Haradinaj's uncle, who
1 is named Rasim. I'm not sure about the name, but I think that's the one,
2 but I do know him.
3 Q. Do you know Ramush Haradinaj's father?
4 A. Yes, I do.
5 Q. What's his name?
6 A. Hilmi Haradinaj.
7 Q. Do you know Idriz Balaj?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 Q. What about Lahi Brahimaj?
10 A. Lahi Ibrahimaj, no.
11 Q. Did you do service in the JNA at any point?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. When was that and for how long?
14 A. I think it lasted for 13 months, and it was in 1986/1987.
15 Q. Were you living in Dubrava in January, February, March 1998?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber in general terms about
18 things that may have started to happen from January 1998 onwards in
20 A. What do you mean, referring to my particular case?
21 Q. Militarily.
22 A. Nothing was happening militarily. Everything was as usual.
23 Q. What about in your particular case? What happened to you?
24 A. On the 24th of March, 1998 --
25 Q. Can I -- before March 1998, I want to ask you about your
1 movements and whether you were prevented from moving around on any
2 particular occasion?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When was that?
5 A. One evening, I was coming home late. It was ten past 11.00 or
6 thereabouts. When I came to the entrance of Glodjane - which we, the
7 locals, called the centre -- there was a store there, a tobacconist shop,
8 I saw four armed men there. Two had hand-held rocket-launchers and two
9 had automatic rifles. They stopped me - I was in a car - and asked to
10 see my identification papers. They ordered me to step out of the car.
11 They searched my car several times. All the lights in the village were
12 off. I expected that someone will appear from the neighbours. These men
13 were armed. They had Balaclavas on their heads.
14 After the search, they talked among themselves what they would do
15 with me. One of them said that they had to ask their commander. At that
16 moment, a green Mercedes taxi appeared from Decani, on the road from
17 Rznic to Decani. They stopped him some 50 metres from me, checked him,
18 and let him go, and he proceeded towards Saptej. They questioned me
19 whether I had a brother working in the police, whether I knew anything in
20 detail about the police. I responded by saying that I didn't know
21 anything, and then the four of them discussed something and said that
22 they had to ask for instructions what to do about me, and they had to ask
23 their commander.
24 One of them was standing behind me. He fired one bullet from his
25 pistol, but I didn't notice this until I heard this shot being fired.
1 Shortly afterwards, perhaps ten minutes, a man appeared from
2 Glodjane but the road leading from Dubrava. He stopped a little further
3 away, about 50 metres away, in a dark alley. They discussed something, I
4 couldn't hear what they were talking about, and then the man came back.
5 He took out a note pad from his pocket and told me to write something in
6 that note pad in terms that I had been stopped by the Kosovo Liberation
7 Army. That was the first time I heard about it, that the Kosovo
8 Liberation Army had stopped me, that they hadn't mistreated me, and that
9 they treated me well. I wrote all this down. Finally he told me to sign
10 it, which I did, and then they told me I was free to go. And they told
11 me, Don't be afraid. You can go.
12 When I went back into the car, one of them called me again and
13 said, Stop, calm yourself. He took out a packet of LM cigarettes, gave
14 me a cigarette. He lit it for me and said that I was free to go, and I
16 Q. Did you know any of those people, the ones who'd stopped you?
17 A. I couldn't recognise them because it was both dark and they had
18 these Balaclavas, and I could only see their eyes and their mouths.
19 Q. What language were they talking?
20 A. They spoke Albanian, but their accent was similar to that spoken
21 by people from Albania.
22 Q. Did you speak Albanian?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Do you write Albanian -- read and write Albanian as well?
25 A. Now it's a little bit difficult, but at the time it was all right
1 because I constantly used that language. I was living among Albanians.
2 Q. So --
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So this paper you had to sign or you signed also
4 was written in Albanian, is that right?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had to write it in Albanian. I
6 used Latin alphabet --
7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: [Previous translation continues]... write
8 yourself, yes. Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I did.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I put the pad on the roof of the
12 car and wrote it down.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, perhaps at a later stage you pay attention
14 to page 78, lines 10 to 13, which is difficult to follow in terms of
16 MR. RE: I will do.
17 Q. I'll ask you to return to the map in a moment, Mr. Stojanovic,
18 but first: When did this occur in relation to the -- how long before the
19 incident on March the 24th you're going to tell us about did this occur?
20 A. I don't know the exact date, but it was less than a month.
21 Q. And --
22 A. As far as I can remember.
23 Q. Did you make a report to any authorities about what had happened?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. Which authorities and when?
1 A. To the police station in Rznic, the very next morning.
2 Q. Did you file a written report or did someone take a statement or
3 what happened?
4 A. One of the policemen took my statement.
5 MR. RE: Is the exhibit still on the screen that the witness can
6 have a look at?
7 Q. What I want you to do is if you can look back at the computer
8 screen, the monitor, are you able to see on the screen where it was that
9 you were stopped when this incident occurred?
10 A. Just give me a minute.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, I also wanted to ask you. You said you came
12 to the entrance of Gllogjan. There was a store there, a tobacconist
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. There was a store at the
15 corner, and this is the entrance to Glodjane and the road leading to
16 Saptej. This is where the crossroads is between the road leading to
17 Dubrava and to Saptej.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Perhaps if you could mark with an X on the map if you can see the
20 spot where it was that you were stopped?
21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: If I may ask --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If this is the road to Saptej, then
23 I can do that, this one here. From Rznic to Glodjane, so it's there in
24 the centre where this crossroads is, where the road leading to Dubrava
25 is. So that's the crossroads.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I take it you were coming from Rznic; is that
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, from Rznic.
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: That entrance, yes.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It happened at this crossroads.
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And this was at the crossroads or very close to
7 the crossroads?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Precisely on the crossroad.
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
10 MR. RE:
11 Q. Do you think you could mark it -- I think we know where the
12 crossroads are from your description, but do you think -- are you able to
13 mark it with an X? Even if you can't fit it on the map, are you able to
14 put an X or maybe an arrow pointing to it?
15 A. It's here, but now there's a lot of colour here. This is the
17 JUDGE ORIE: For the Chamber, Mr. Re.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Now, you were going to tell us before about something that
20 happened in, I think you said, the 24th of March. What was that?
21 A. On the 24th of March, I went to work in the morning. That's the
22 period when I was working at the school. It was between 10.00 or 11.00
23 when my mother called me and told me that something strange was going on
24 and that there was shooting. I left my work-place and came -- and went
1 When I arrived, I saw many policemen and I heard the shooting.
2 There were shots coming from the Haradinaj house and from this other
3 direction. I saw a wounded policeman lying on the road some 200 metres
4 away; that was Miodrag Otovic. The police were trying to recover his
5 body while the shots were still being fired, and it looked like a war
6 zone. It lasted the whole day.
7 When I arrived home, I asked one of the policemen on the road
8 what was happening, and he told me that there were 24 armed men who had
9 wounded the policemen. The fighting lasted until about late afternoon.
10 The police managed to move them.
11 Around 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon, a helicopter came and
12 air-lifted the policeman. I think there were one or two helicopters.
13 They took him to Pristina, and the action was still in progress, and I
14 couldn't see what was actually happening from my house.
15 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to pause there. You said a moment
16 ago there were shots coming from the Haradinaj house. Was that
17 Ramush Haradinaj's house or some other Haradinaj house?
18 A. From Ramush Haradinaj's house, as well as the house of his cousin
19 next to him and also from his cousin's stable, from the old house, and
20 from the border next to my property. Two shells were fired against my
21 house. One hit a plum tree and exploded in the yard, and the other one
22 missed and passed between the house and the stable and landed further
24 Q. You referred a moment ago to fighting. Who was the fighting
25 between, were you able to see?
1 A. I couldn't see. Being a civilian, I was barred from going out
2 and it was dangerous. There was shooting, so ...
3 Q. Who barred you from going out?
4 A. The police.
5 Q. From which direction did the two shells come?
6 A. From Hilmi and Haxhija Haradinaj's house.
7 Q. Who else was in your house with you when this was occurring?
8 A. My mother and my nephew, my brother's son.
9 Q. How long did you remain in your house for?
10 A. We remained until the evening. I would venture out into the yard
11 occasionally because the cattle was loose and I had to gather it
12 together, but we didn't dare go beyond our yard.
13 Q. What happened -- where did you go in the evening?
14 A. In the evening there was a man, probably a commander because he
15 had a rank, came to our house and told us that it was unsafe for us to
16 remain there. He explicitly said that Ramush Haradinaj and his group
17 were armed, that anything could happen, and that it would be best for us
18 to leave and go with them. We left our house, all our belongings. I
19 started my car, and they were -- they drove to Djakovica and I joined
20 them in the convoy to Djakovica.
21 Q. This commander, from what organisation was he?
22 A. Police.
23 Q. Where did you go in Djakovica?
24 A. I first went to the Secretariat of the Interior where we were
25 supposed to give statements about the event. After that, I went to my
1 brother's. I had no other place to go to.
2 Q. Have you lived in your house in Dubrava since that date?
3 A. I only went from time to time.
4 Q. What about your family? Have your family lived in the house
5 since that date?
6 A. No, no one. The following day, I went there to see the house and
7 the cattle. I fed the cattle, and we would then occasionally come, but
8 we never continued living there.
9 Q. What was the name of your brother who you lived with or went to
10 stay with in Decani -- I'm sorry, did I say "Decani," I mean Djakovica?
11 A. Decani.
12 Q. I'm sorry. I take the question back.
13 You said you went to stay with your brother. Where was your --
14 what was your brother's name and where was your brother's place?
15 A. We didn't live with him, we just spent the night there. He had a
16 flat in the centre of Djakovica. It was a rented flat.
17 Q. Where did you and your mother stay after leaving your house on
18 the 24th of March, 1998?
19 A. The following day we went to Decani, asked for aid from the
20 municipality. They gave us shelter in some barracks belonging to the
21 monastery estate.
22 MR. EMMERSON: I'm so sorry to interrupt.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. EMMERSON: I heard a name which doesn't appear on the
25 transcript when asked the identity of the brother, and I wonder if Mr. Re
1 could just simply clarify - it didn't come up on the transcript, it said
2 it on the tape - what the names of the family members are so that we can
3 have it clear?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Re.
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. Your brother's name, the one you stayed with overnight, what was
7 that name?
8 A. Predrag Stojanovic.
9 Q. A few moments ago, you told the Chamber that you went back from
10 time to time?
11 A. Yes, that's right. The next day, I went on my own.
12 Q. Did anything happen on that next day when you went on your own?
13 A. Not to me personally, but I did see some degree of activity. My
14 neighbours had brought over journalists to take pictures of the houses,
15 and then the next day I read reports about that in the papers.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, the witness has testified that among his
17 neighbours was the Haradinajs, but therefore I'd like to see
18 clarification on which neighbours.
19 MR. RE:
20 Q. Which neighbours are you talking about when you say: "The
21 neighbours had brought over journalists to take pictures"?
22 A. Ramush and Qamil Haradinaj, I'm talking about the Haradinaj
23 family now. I didn't see Ramush there, but they did go to his house.
24 Qamil and Beko came with them, as well as Besim; those were the ones I
25 knew. There were other locals there, not just the Haradinajs. There
1 were many of them there. There was a journalist -- not really a
2 journalist, rather, a painter from Detane called Cacan. He was a
3 professional decorator, but he was the man holding the camera and he was
4 the one who took most of the pictures, including one of my home while I
5 was looking on from my garden.
6 Q. Did you return to your home in April 1998?
7 A. To stay, you mean?
8 Q. To go back. Not to stay but to go back.
9 A. No, no, I just went to check on my cattle. It was all open. I
10 live in the countryside. We had our own livestock. We had to check on
11 our farm every now and then.
12 Q. Was there a particular occasion you went back with other people
13 and something happened?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. When was that?
16 A. On the 18th of April, 1998.
17 Q. Who did you go there with?
18 A. With my brother Mijat and my aunt's brother Veselin Stijovic.
19 Q. Where were you coming from?
20 A. From Baboloc.
21 Q. By what means were you travelling? Were you driving?
22 A. I was driving my own car, a Mazda 626. Mijat and Veselin arrived
23 in their Lada station wagon.
24 Q. Approximately what time of day? Was it morning? Afternoon?
1 A. About 8.00 or 9.00.
2 Q. Why did you go there -- I'm sorry, you've told me that.
3 What did -- what happened when you got there?
4 A. When we got there, the two brothers went into the house to get
5 some basic necessities because over in Decani we had nothing, next to
6 nothing. Suddenly shots were being fired at us from the Haradinaj
7 household. We were scared, and we ran into the house and locked the
9 Every now and then, I would go to the window facing the terrace
10 to see what was going on. I thought this had just been an attempt to
11 intimidate us. But in the meantime, I realised that armed men were
12 approaching the house from all sides. They were firing on all sides,
13 leaving us entirely surrounded. And they were using all sorts of
15 Q. What sort of weapons did you see?
16 A. That's what I saw later. The first thing I saw was some sort of
17 a Chinese machine-gun. A person who ran across the road with some sort
18 of a pad for a weapon, he was firing most of the shots at my brother's
19 Lada, but later I saw pistols and Kalashnikovs --
20 Q. How did you know -- I'll stop you.
21 A. -- as well -- as well as a whole range of semi-automatic weapons.
22 Q. How did you know it was a Chinese machine-gun?
23 A. Well, I just knew. I had been to a reserve officers' school and
24 I took a number of classes on weapons, so I knew a little about that sort
25 of thing.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, in order to better understand the testimony,
2 you asked whether it was morning, afternoon, or evening. The witness
3 said it was 8.00 or 9.00, but I still do not know whether it was the
4 morning or the evening.
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. Was it --
7 A. Morning, morning.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
9 Please proceed.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It may have been a tad later, but
11 it was around that time.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. Did any shots hit your house?
14 A. Yes. The walls; one came through the terrace window. When they
15 were near the house already, a lot of grenades were thrown onto the roof.
16 Then we heard them yelling for us to leave the house and surrender. I
17 walked up to the door. I opened the door, and as soon as I did
18 Zecir Nimonaj was the first to dash into the house, and then he was
19 followed by Daut Haradinaj and another 20 or 30 of them. They searched
20 all the rooms, and about three or four of them were hitting me in the
21 stomach with their rifle-butts, in the veranda. One of them told my
22 brother to lie down on the concrete floor face-down, and they continued
23 to beat me.
24 About 10 or 15 minutes later - hard for me to tell - one of them
25 yelled at me, Lie face down, and he cursed my Serb mother. As soon as I
1 was lying face down, I received several more punches and kicks but not as
2 severe as the ones I'd received while still standing up.
3 Then they kicked my two brothers a little, after which we were
4 eventually taken outside the house. The house was teeming with armed men
5 ransacking the house; however, they found nothing. Once they'd taken us
6 outside, they continued to hit us and beat us outside the house. There
7 were many of them involved in this. It was difficult for you to look at
8 them. As soon as you raised your head, they would tell you immediately
9 to keep your head down and kick you and hit you.
10 At one point in time Nasim Haradinaj arrived, who told them,
11 That's enough, boys. They obeyed him, and then they took us away. They
12 were discussing for a while at first, Where should we take them? I heard
13 them discussing this. And he said, Let's take them to HQ. I didn't know
14 where this HQ was. I'd never seen that before. So they took us down the
15 street, beating and mistreating us all the while, firing shots behind us.
16 Q. I'll ask you to pause there. I want to go back and ask you some
17 questions about what you've just told us, then I'll come back to it;
19 A. That's fine.
20 Q. A moment ago, you referred to -- excuse me for one moment. You
21 said, Then they kicked my brothers a little." I heard the translation of
22 you saying "my brothers." Is that correct?
23 A. Brothers -- no, not a little, quite a bit in fact but they were
24 on the floor lying face-down. Most of the beating had occurred inside
25 the house, however.
1 Q. Who -- just to clarify, you said your brothers, but before you
2 said a cousin and your brother. Who was there? Who were they beating?
3 A. Well, yes, the cousin Stijovic, there's nobody else. He's the
4 one I'm talking about, but that's the sort of expression we use
6 Q. When you say brothers, are you referring to your brother Mijat
7 and your cousin --
8 A. Mijat Stijovic, yes, yes.
9 Q. Okay --
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: If we understood the witness correct, I think
11 that he also said the brother but his cousin Stijovic, yes. So it's not
12 to be understood in the strict word sense.
13 MR. RE: But that's --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
16 MR. RE:
17 Q. What were these people who -- the armed people who came to your
18 house wearing?
19 A. You mean their clothes or their weapons?
20 Q. Their clothes.
21 A. Camouflage. All different sorts but most of them were in
22 camouflage. Daut Haradinaj, for example, was wearing a black uniform and
23 Zecir Nimonaj as well. There were some who were wearing camouflage
24 trousers and a civilian top, a civilian shirt on top, but plenty of them
25 were actually in camouflage. Most, I would say.
1 Q. What language were they speaking?
2 A. Albanian.
3 Q. Now, we've got --
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: When speaking about the Albanian language, as you
5 made before this -- this observation about the accent from the
6 Albanian -- Albanians were -- was it Kosovo language or Albanian
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They used the Kosovar accent, but
9 it's not that different, really.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. Was the accent -- the Kosova accent, was it a local one or
14 another type of accent which these people were using?
15 A. Local, those villages in the area. There is a very tiny
16 difference between the different accents.
17 Q. You said they said they would take you to HQ. You didn't know
18 where it was, you'd never been there before, so they took us down the
19 streets beating and mistreating us while firing shots behind us?
20 A. I had been there before, but it was never anybody's HQ. This was
21 Smajl Haradinaj's family home, the place they eventually took us to.
22 Another one of my neighbours, I knew him well, I socialised with all
23 those people and that sort of thing. I never realised there was an HQ
25 Q. How did you get there? When you say "you," are you referring to
1 the three of you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And how did you get there? How did they take you there?
4 A. We walked. We walked as far as the house, and the distance must
5 be between 1500 and 1800 metres, roughly speaking. Armed people were
6 coming out on either side of the road, and again there were beatings.
7 People would just run up to us and kick us, firing shots past our heads,
8 and they just kept on mistreating us all the way, as far as the house.
9 Q. Did you know any of these armed people?
10 A. Most of those people were my neighbours from Glodjane, from
11 Rznic, and those other villages in the area.
12 Q. And if you look at the map which is still in front of you, are
13 you able to locate on this map where it was you were taken to?
14 A. It's very difficult. I find it very difficult to use this map.
15 If you showed me photographs of the village, for example, I'd be able to
16 pin-point the locations for you.
17 Q. I'll do that now.
18 MR. RE: If you could -- if the witness could please be shown 65
19 ter Exhibit 1133.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar ...
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, you've done with the map so that it can be
23 saved now so that -- it will be saved anyway, but of course markings --
24 every new episode of marking creates a new exhibit.
25 MR. RE: Oh, I see.
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on. If you've done with the map then we
3 get the next exhibit.
4 MR. RE: Please.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that there's a possibility to keep
6 the old number when new markings are made, but.
7 Madam Registrar, the number would be ...?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P32,
9 marked for identification.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 MR. RE:
12 Q. There's a photograph on the screen in front of you, Mr.
13 Stojanovic. Do you recognise that photograph?
14 A. Can we just zoom in slightly, please?
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You mean the photograph or the village on the
16 photograph to be recognised?
17 MR. RE: I really mean the village. Your Honour is quite
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay.
20 MR. RE:
21 Q. Do you recognise the village?
22 A. Well, it does look somewhat different but -- can I have a look,
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I take this is taken from the air?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are certain buildings in this
1 photograph that weren't around while I still resided in the area.
2 MR. RE:
3 Q. Which village is in the photograph?
4 A. I think this is Glodjane.
5 Q. Can you see the house in there belonging to Smajl Haradinaj which
6 was described to you as the headquarters?
7 A. It's the fourth house along the road into Glodjane, but I can't
8 find it in this photograph. It's to the right of my own house, which is
10 Q. All right. If you can't see it on that photograph I will --
11 we'll move on?
12 A. I can't.
13 Q. What -- what happened when you got to that house?
14 A. When we got to that house, I was the first to be taken to a room
15 inside that house, a small room. Me and the two brothers, but they left
16 the two of them outside in a small corridor, and I was taken into the
17 room to be sort of interrogated.
18 Q. Can I ask you to pause. How many floors did this house have?
19 A. Two.
20 Q. Was the room you were taken to on the top floor or the bottom
22 A. Top floor. It's a very small room. There's a hallway just
23 outside, and then there's a door off that -- there's the guest-room off
24 that hallway, there's a door there. Then there's a gate and then there's
25 a staircase, too, which takes you directly to that guest-room.
1 Q. Who took you to the room on the top floor?
2 A. That lad, Besnik, Rasim's son; Zecir Nimonaj; and Daut. They
3 were the group that took us upstairs.
4 Q. What happened when you got upstairs?
5 A. The two brothers were left to wait outside in the hall under
6 guard, and I was taken into that room. In the meantime, one of them came
7 out -- two, actually. Rasim's son stayed on his own, and he started
8 questioning me. He was taunting me, trying to rile me, trying to abuse
9 me. How many policemen were there in Decani, why was I in the village,
10 why didn't I apply for a permit from them, that sort of thing. That's
11 the sort of thing he was asking. He was just trying to give me grief, to
12 mistreat me, because as a matter of fact there was nothing he could
13 possibly ask me about.
14 After that he offered me some coffee. He said, If you like
15 sharing a cup of coffee? And I said, Sure, of course. And then he kept
16 talking to me and he said, Listen, neighbour, you remember the first time
17 we pulled you over - and I did remember that - and he said, The first
18 time around, we did not mistreat you. I kept silent. I refrained from
19 commenting, and then I was brought some coffee a little later. I just
20 started to drink my coffee, but after the very first sip I got violently
21 sick. I started choking, and I pleaded with him to open the window. He
22 opened the door, and I could no longer hold it back. They chucked me out
23 of the room. I was losing consciousness and choking all the time. They
24 chucked me out into the hallway, where I fainted. This was the first
25 time I fainted.
1 Q. Okay. I'll ask you to pause there for one moment. You described
2 earlier in your own house being beaten. Did you sustain any injuries at
3 that point when you were beaten in your home?
4 A. I hadn't actually felt anything until the time I arrived back,
5 and that was a result of the blows that I had taken in the house when
6 they were hitting me with their rifle-butts and kicking me with their
7 pistol. My pancreas was ruptured in two places, the walls of my stomach,
8 my colon, and a number of other injuries that I sustained which required
9 surgery, which I eventually underwent in Pristina.
10 Q. I'll just go back to when you were in the room, you said:
11 "Rasim's son stayed on his own and he started questioning me." What's
12 Rasim's son's name?
13 A. Besnik, I think, but I can't be positive.
14 Q. What --
15 A. This is Rasim's son.
16 Q. What was he wearing when --
17 A. Eljmi's brother. He was wearing black clothes, so was Daut and
18 Zecir Nimonaj, the three of them. He had the insignia of the Kosovo
19 Liberation Army on his right shoulder with a writing in Albanian -- on
20 his left shoulder strap.
21 Q. Can you describe the black clothes. What sort of black clothes
22 were they?
23 A. Black clothes.
24 Q. [Previous translation continues]...
25 A. There's a cap -- no, no, no, more like military. Black cap with
1 a red sign, two-headed eagle down the middle, and then in yellow letters
2 the Albanian words for "Kosovo Liberation Army."
3 MR. RE: Can the Exhibit P9 please be displayed to the witness in
5 Q. While that's coming up -- something will be coming up on the
6 screen in a moment, I wanted to ask you: Were these people armed when
7 they were questioning you?
8 A. They were armed. The insignia they displayed on the cap and on
9 the uniform, on the sleeve. They were armed. Some had the full kit, an
10 automatic weapon and pistol, some. Mostly automatic weapons. There were
11 elderly people not wearing a uniform, my old neighbours, and they had the
12 old M-48 rifles, including some who were carrying semi-automatic rifles.
13 Q. Two things here. When they were questioning you -- the two
14 people were questioning you in the room, were those two people armed?
15 A. There were --
16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: [Previous translation continues]... wasn't the
17 witness describing one person instead of two?
18 MR. RE: If I misheard, I correct myself.
19 Q. Whoever was questioning you --
20 A. Three took me inside and two went out, and then one remained, and
21 then later on there were three of them again.
22 Q. -- were those three people armed when they were questioning you?
23 A. Yes, they were, but there was a table. This was a small room --
24 this was a small room.
25 MR. RE: I think I might have jumped slightly ahead then.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, he said: "Three took me inside, two went out,
2 and then one remained, and then later on there were three of them again."
3 And then in your --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The brothers, three, three of them
5 beat them.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, the first question would be whether
7 all three of them questioned the witness. That's --
8 MR. RE: I understand -- I understand. I apologise.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. RE: I will take it step by step.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
12 MR. RE: And I apologise --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Whether we could take it step by step, if I look at
14 the clock there's not much time left to --
15 MR. RE: The only thing I want the witness to do is to identify
16 that exhibit which is on the screen now, if he could. That was the only
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
19 MR. RE:
20 Q. Witness, Mr. Stojanovic, in front of you, there's a --
21 A. This is the sort of emblem used by the Kosovo Liberation Army.
22 They wore this on their caps and on their sleeves, their left hand --
23 left arms.
24 MR. RE: The witness is referring to Exhibit P9 which is
25 displayed before him. Let the record reflect that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Mr. Stojanovic, we -- it's 7.00, we stop for today. We'll like
3 to see you back Monday at quarter past 2.00, and I'll ask now Madam Usher
4 to escort you out of the courtroom -- oh, yes, one second, please. I
5 want to instruct you that you speak with no one about your testimony, the
6 testimony you have given today or the testimony still to be given on
7 Monday perhaps. So you should not speak with anyone about it.
8 Madam Usher.
9 Mr. Re, I think we still -- you still owe us a date for the
10 filing of the corrected version of the 92 bis motion. You earlier said
11 that you had to make some inquiries and I asked you then to come back to
12 it later today.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 MR. RE: Could I say Tuesday again with this one?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes, although it's just oral information which
16 you were seeking this afternoon. So if you could provide it on Monday,
17 that would be fine, but if there's -- or do you say Tuesday will be the
18 day of the filing?
19 MR. RE: Yes, Tuesday will be the day of the filing.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, thanks.
21 MR. RE: Can I also advise you I think I'm on track to finish
22 within the time -- the time which we indicated, the hour and a half.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. RE: I'm pretty much -- I don't think I'll be much -- maybe
25 by a few minutes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I take it that there's no difficulty to
2 cross-examine the witness.
3 MR. EMMERSON: No difficulties.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then we adjourn and we'll adjourn until Monday, the
5 26th of March, quarter past 2.00 in the afternoon, Courtroom II.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Monday, the 26th day of
8 March, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.