Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 1982

1 Tuesday, 27 March 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone, both in the courtroom and

7 outside the courtroom assisting us.

8 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

9 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

10 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

12 Mr. Re, are you ready to re-examine the witness?


14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 Re-examination by Mr. Re:

16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Stojanovic.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, before Mr. Re starts, I would like

18 to remind you that you are still bound by the solemn declaration you gave

19 at the beginning of your testimony last Friday.

20 Mr. Re.

21 MR. RE:

22 Q. There are just several matters I wish to clarify from the

23 questions Mr. Emmerson asked you yesterday, and I'll just ask you a few

24 questions on that. Okay?

25 A. That's fine.

Page 1983

1 Q. The first one is about your mother. Just so it's clear, what is

2 your mother's year of birth?

3 A. I don't know exactly, but I think 1930 or thereabouts.

4 Q. Another thing I just wish to ask you about is yesterday

5 Mr. Emmerson - it was at page 64 of the transcript - asked you about your

6 mother saying the men who searched you before the incident on March the

7 24th, 1998, had found a gun on you. And you said: "How can my mother or

8 anyone else on earth for that matter know anything about that except for

9 myself? It wasn't just once that they actually physically frisked me

10 during that time when they stopped me, they frisked me about five times."

11 Just to ensure that the interpretation was entirely clear, the

12 five times of frisking, are you referring only to that occasion when you

13 were stopped, or are you saying there was another four occasions on which

14 you were frisked?

15 A. On that occasion that evening, that evening.

16 MR. RE: Those are my questions, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, the Bench has no further questions

20 for you. This means that this concludes your evidence. It was really

21 short this morning. I take it at least that the re-examination has not

22 triggered any need for further questions by the Defence? I see nodding

23 no three times.

24 Mr. Stojanovic, you have been in court here now for the third

25 day, you answered all questions put to you. The Chamber would like to

Page 1984

1 thank you for coming far way and wish you a safe trip home again.

2 Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Stojanovic out of the

3 courtroom.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for calling me and

5 good-bye.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, is the Prosecution ready to call its next

8 witness?

9 MR. RE: Yes, the next witness will be Mr. Mijat Stojanovic.

10 Mr. Di Fazio will take his witness and with him is another lawyer on our

11 team, Ms. Romana Schweiger, who is sitting in court with us today.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, welcome in court.

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness. Before you give evidence,

15 the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn

16 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

17 the truth. The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher, and I'd

18 like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Witness. Please be seated.

22 I said "Witness," I do understand that your name is

23 Mijat Stojanovic. Mr. Stojanovic, you'll first be examined by

24 Mr. Di Fazio, who is counsel for the Prosecution.

25 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.

Page 1985

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.


3 [Witness answered through interpreter]

4 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

5 Q. Witness, I'd like to get some personal details from you, please.

6 Could I have your full name, your date of birth, and your place of birth,

7 please?

8 A. My name is Mijat Stojanovic. I was born on the 29th of January,

9 1964, in Djakovica.

10 Q. And I'd like to get details of your family, your immediate

11 family, your siblings and parents, and I would like to have the details

12 as they existed in early 1998. So can you do it this way: Start with

13 your mother and father, tell us their names, and then start with the

14 siblings, brothers and sisters. Start with the oldest and end with the

15 youngest.

16 A. My mother's name is Ljubica; my father's -- my brothers' name is

17 Predrag, Dragoslav, Vlado; and my sister is Slavica, Nadica, Milica, and

18 Dragica; and there's another brother by the name of Veselin.

19 Q. Sorry, I missed your father's name, I think?

20 A. My father's name is Drago, but he was deceased at the time.

21 Q. I see. Thank you very much. Quite right. Although you were

22 born in Djakovica, I think you lived most of your early years in a small

23 village called Dubrava. Is that correct?

24 A. Yes, I was born in Djakovica, but I lived in Dubrava until the

25 age of 17 or 18, the entire time.

Page 1986

1 Q. And I have one other question about your family, your extended

2 family, do you have a cousin called Veselin Stijovic?

3 A. Veselin Stijovic, yes, that is my cousin, my aunt's son.

4 Q. Okay. And just for completion, is that on your mother's side or

5 your father's side? Mother's sibling or father's sibling?

6 A. Mother's side.

7 Q. And does he -- does he have a nickname?

8 A. Vesko.

9 Q. And do you have a nickname?

10 A. Yes, everybody in my family calls me Kika.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown Exhibit P10, please; it's

13 the map.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, this takes a bit of time until you see it

15 on your screen.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

17 And I wonder if the court officer would be so kind as to expand

18 the -- it's really the bottom half and in the area to the -- yes, thanks,

19 that's right. And just a bit more, if you could. Thanks.

20 Q. Have a look at that map. Can you see Dubrava on it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. All right. I don't think it's in dispute that it's -- in this

23 case that it's to the north of a place called Gramocelj, correct, and

24 just south of another place called Glodjane; correct? Would you agree

25 with that?

Page 1987

1 A. Yes, yes.

2 Q. All right.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks. Now -- yes, thank you, that's even

4 better. Thank you.

5 Q. How far is Dubrava from Glodjane?

6 A. Dubrava was adjacent to Glodjane. Ours was the last house in

7 Dubrava, and the next property was already in Glodjane.

8 Q. Yes, I want to try and give the Trial Chamber a sense of that.

9 If you stood in the centre of Dubrava and you walked to the centre of

10 Glodjane, about how far would that be?

11 A. Maybe a kilometre and a half, maybe 2 kilometres. I can't really

12 be very specific about it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, we have a grid on the map, so we know

14 that it's --

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: -- square kilometres. Please proceed.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

18 Q. And the buildings between Dubrava and Glodjane, is there open

19 land in between the two places or are there buildings, houses and farms

20 and shops and so on, in between, all the way from Dubrava to Glodjane?

21 A. No, there is open land and a few scattered houses, but mostly on

22 arable land or meadows, but the village of Dubrava itself has this

23 centre, and then there is the centre of the village of Glodjane. And in

24 between them, there is open land, meadows, and maybe just a few houses

25 here and there.

Page 1988

1 Q. Thank you for that description.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I've finished with the exhibit.

3 Q. Did you go to school in the area, primary school?

4 A. Until the fifth grade I went to Djakovica, then I went to Rznic,

5 and then I completed my secondary education in Decani.

6 Q. All the while continuing to live in the village of Dubrava and

7 going from there to school?

8 A. Yes, yes, that's correct.

9 Q. What was the name of the school in Rznic?

10 A. Petar Prlja.

11 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Ramush Haradinaj?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. How long have you known him?

14 A. Ever since I started in the fifth grade when I transferred to the

15 school in Rznic.

16 Q. Did he attend that elementary school, that Petar Prlja elementary

17 school?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. How did you get to school -- to that school?

20 A. Well, we mostly walked. At that time, there were just a few --

21 the bus service ran just a few times a day, so most of us students would

22 just walk there.

23 Q. And on those occasions, did you see Ramush Haradinaj, the child

24 of course?

25 A. Yes, yes.

Page 1989

1 Q. Did he have siblings?

2 A. Yes, Daut who went to school with him, too, he was a bit younger.

3 So at one stage, he started going with his brother to school, too.

4 Q. Did you know his parents?

5 A. I did know his father Hilmi. I didn't know his mother.

6 Q. What did his father do when you were young and when you were a

7 teenager?

8 A. As far as I can remember, for a while he worked in a shop in

9 Rznic. I don't know whether it was in this period or maybe a little bit

10 later. I can't really be certain, I can't remember.

11 Q. Thank you. And did you go to the shop from time to time and buy

12 things?

13 A. Yes, yes.

14 Q. And did you ever see Mr. Ramush Haradinaj or any of his brothers

15 close to or around the shop?

16 A. I don't remember seeing them in the shop.

17 Q. From time to time, did you see Ramush Haradinaj around your

18 village or in the -- not necessarily just in Dubrava, but in the villages

19 around Dubrava, including Glodjane?

20 A. I did see him in Glodjane, yes.

21 Q. Do you know where he lived?

22 A. Yes. For a while he lived in the village centre until they built

23 their house close to our house.

24 Q. I see. Where -- about when was that?

25 A. Well, I can't really remember when it was that this house was

Page 1990

1 built.

2 Q. No, no, that's fair enough. I'm not asking for a precise date,

3 but can you perhaps thinking back in terms of your life, was it when you

4 were a child, a kid, or was it perhaps later when you were a teenager?

5 Can you try and fix it by reference to --

6 A. Well, thereabouts.

7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise, we didn't catch the

8 last part of the answer.


10 Q. Just give us your answer again, if you wouldn't mind.

11 A. Yes. When I was a young man.

12 Q. And how far away was the house, the Haradinaj house, from your

13 place?

14 A. 150 to 200 metres, something like that.

15 Q. After the house was constructed, did you ever see

16 Ramush Haradinaj? In and around the house, I mean.

17 A. Yes, yes, at the property, yes.

18 Q. And what about his father, Hilmi, and his brother Daut?

19 A. I remember seeing Hilmi, and I can't recall seeing Daut. The

20 reason why I remember seeing Hilmi is because I would sometimes mow their

21 meadows.

22 Q. In -- do you know if he had other brothers?

23 A. Well, he did have some younger brothers, but I don't know them

24 well at all.

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You are asking about Hilmi's brothers?

Page 1991

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see. No, that could have led to some

2 confusion. Thank you, Your Honours.

3 Q. I'm asking about Ramush Haradinaj's brothers, did he have any

4 other brothers that you knew of, apart from Daut?

5 A. I knew them by sight, but I don't know their names.

6 Q. Thanks. You -- how long did you continue to live in the area?

7 A. Well, I lived there until the age of 18 permanently, and then I

8 went to Belgrade to study. I first went to do my national service, and

9 then I went to Belgrade to study, but I came back home quite often.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, if Your Honours would just bear with me.

11 [Prosecution counsel confer]


13 Q. In between the time that you left to go off and do your military

14 service and move to Belgrade, did you go back to Dubrava from time to

15 time?

16 A. Not occasionally. I would go there quite often.

17 Q. And after you went -- had been to university -- I'm sorry, I -- I

18 don't think you actually said this, but I don't think it's in -- there's

19 no problem with this. You actually started university in Belgrade,

20 didn't you, and didn't finish it. Is that correct?

21 A. Yes, I never graduated.

22 Q. All right. Okay. Now, after that period of time, did you

23 continue to go back to Dubrava the same frequency?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. How often every year would you say that you went back to Dubrava

Page 1992

1 and how often would you stay there when you did go back?

2 A. Two or three times a year at least. I would sometimes stay for a

3 week, sometimes over a weekend, sometimes I would spend my whole leave

4 there and eventually I got a job. Every time I was on leave, I went back

5 home.

6 Q. Thank you. And did that pattern continue up until the first part

7 of 1998?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Now, in between the time that you went to university and the

10 first part of 1998, during which time you were going back from time to

11 time, did you ever see Ramush Haradinaj?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. If you can recall specific incidents, please tell us; if you

14 can't, make that clear. I'd like to know if you can recall any specific

15 incidents or whether you simply have a memory of seeing him from time to

16 time.

17 A. We did see quite a bit of each other, but I can't remember that

18 particular incident.

19 Q. Thank you. When you saw each other, would you greet each other

20 or would you just simply recognise the individual?

21 A. I can't remember if we greeted each other or not, but I'm sure we

22 would recognise each other.

23 Q. And in that period of time that I'm talking about now, the period

24 of time when you went to university in Belgrade and the period of the

25 first part of 1998, did you also continue to see his father from time to

Page 1993

1 time during these visits?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. What about Daut, did you see him from time to time during these

4 visits?

5 A. I can't remember.

6 Q. Thank you. I'd like you now to focus on the first part of 1998

7 and tell the Trial Chamber what your situation was; that is, where were

8 you living at the time and what was your job? Where did you go to work?

9 A. Back in 1995, I left Belgrade in May 1995, I think. I started

10 working with my brother in Indjija. We made oxidised dye, we had a small

11 shop. Most of my market was in Kosovo, that's where I sold most of our

12 stuff; therefore, between 1995 and 1998, I was caught spending most of my

13 time in Kosovo.

14 Q. Which brother were you working -- which brother were you in

15 business with?

16 A. Veselin.

17 Q. And where is Indjija?

18 A. In Serbia.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I'm not a native English speaker.

20 "Dye," is that a kind of -- to colour textiles or ...

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't know, it's a paint -- I'm sorry, I'll ask

22 the witness and get the details.



25 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber, what exactly is the stuff that you were

Page 1994

1 making?

2 A. Oxidised dye. It's a sort of colour, paint, you use to

3 white-wash houses, that sort of thing. It's industrial and it's used in

4 the construction business mainly.

5 Q. Thanks for that clarification. Where were you living between

6 1995 and 1998?

7 A. As I said a while ago, I would occasionally go to Belgrade or

8 perhaps to Indjija, but I was spending most of my time in Kosovo.

9 Q. All right. Okay. And where precisely in Kosovo? And I'm really

10 interested in where you were domiciled, where you were actually living,

11 where you would go home to eat and sleep and so on, where is that?

12 A. Dubrava, Dubrava itself.

13 Q. In the same home in which you had grown up in?

14 A. Yes, the only home we have.

15 Q. Thank you. Turn your mind now to the first two or three -- to

16 the first three months of 1998, January, February, and March of 1998. I

17 want to ask you about events in Dubrava. Firstly, did this pattern that

18 you described to the Trial Chamber continue? Were you spending time in

19 Dubrava in those three months?

20 A. Yes. Sometimes, of course, I would need to go out and try to

21 sell some of our merchandise.

22 Q. But were they extended business trips, or did you -- were they

23 shortish trips, you would come back to Dubrava?

24 A. Those were day trips. Normally, I would set out in the morning,

25 I would go and tour a particular town in Kosovo, and be back home the

Page 1995

1 same night.

2 Q. Thank you. What sort of car did you drive?

3 A. A Lada 1200, the Russian make, a station-wagon.

4 Q. Thank you. And your brother Dragoslav, did he own a car; and if

5 so, what make?

6 A. Dragoslav had two cars: A Mazda 626 and a Volkswagen, a Jetta.

7 Q. Thank you. In the first two or three months of 1998, did you

8 notice young men in the village of Dubrava?

9 A. I did, everywhere in Dubrava and in Glodjane where their presence

10 was even more conspicuous.

11 Q. Now, young men are seen from towns and villages, of course. What

12 I want to know is if there was anything unusual about the presence of

13 these young men; in other words, different young men or in numbers that

14 were different from your experience up until that time?

15 A. There were many more of them, and I failed to recognise quite a

16 few of them.

17 Q. Where would you see them exactly?

18 A. Normally, in the evening in the centres of those villages that I

19 crossed on my way back.

20 Q. Are you referring to Glodjane or other nearby villages as well?

21 A. Glodjane. I wasn't aware of the other neighbouring villages,

22 with the exception of Glodjane and Dubrava.

23 Q. Did you drive through Glodjane from time to time on the way to

24 and from work or for other reasons in those first few months of 1998?

25 A. There was an asphalt road through Glodjane, so that was the

Page 1996

1 reason that I took that route most of the time.

2 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber if you observed anything other

3 than the mere presence of young men? Did you actually see them doing

4 anything, or was there anything about them that attracted your attention,

5 other than the fact that some of them were not from the area?

6 A. Yes. One evening I was on my way back home and I noticed that

7 most of those young men were carrying bags.

8 Q. What sort of bags?

9 A. The Malboro kind, that sort of thing, the ones used for

10 advertising.

11 Q. I'm still not quite sure. What do you mean? Plastic bags?

12 Plastic shopping bags? Or something else?

13 A. Plastic ones, plastic ones, yes.

14 Q. Well, why did that attract your attention? What was unusual

15 about that?

16 A. It was unusual that virtually each and every one of those young

17 men should have a plastic bag like that. I was on my way back from

18 wherever, I no longer remember, and as I passed through I realised that

19 each and every one of those young men were carrying a plastic bag in

20 their hands.

21 Q. Where were they -- were they apparently going somewhere, as far

22 as from what you could discern?

23 A. They were coming from over Dubrava way and heading for Glodjane.

24 Q. Walking or in vehicles?

25 A. Walking, walking.

Page 1997

1 Q. And in what sort of numbers?

2 A. I can't say right now because they were walking quite far apart.

3 There were quite many of them, though.

4 Q. And was this a one-off episode, or is this a phenomenon that you

5 saw on more than one occasion?

6 A. Just that evening.

7 Q. And can you tell us when that was approximately in 1998? Now, if

8 you can't, don't guess, but if you can give us an idea, please?

9 A. I can't remember exactly.

10 Q. Did you ever get any information as to what was in the bags?

11 A. Sometime later, once I'd spoken to certain people whose names I

12 can't exactly remember, I learned that inside those plastic bags they

13 were carrying grenades.

14 Q. Well, I'd like you now to tell the Trial Chamber as much as you

15 can about the source of the information that you received, who you got

16 the information from. I know you say you can't remember the names, but I

17 want to know the ethnicity of the people, whether they were men or women,

18 which village they were from, if there was more than one person who gave

19 you the information. So tell the Trial Chamber as much as you can about

20 your source of information about these bombs or grenades being in the

21 bags.

22 A. I lived in an area where my home was the only Serb home, so the

23 only people I could possibly have learned this from were the Albanians.

24 Q. And can you remember if they volunteered the information to you

25 about the bombs in the bags, or did you go out looking for information?

Page 1998

1 A. I think I was the one who asked them. It was more of an informal

2 contact or conversation.

3 Q. And from what you could see, were the young men carrying these

4 bags going anywhere specific? I know you've told us that you saw, I

5 think, Dubrava to -- Dubrava towards Glodjane, I think your evidence was,

6 but did you see where they were going specifically?

7 A. I don't know. They were going towards Glodjane, but there were

8 many people who lived in Glodjane in the centre of that village.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours give me a moment.

10 MR. EMMERSON: Whilst Mr. Di Fazio is checking his notes --


12 MR. EMMERSON: -- I wonder if I might ask whether he could

13 establish from the witness how it was that the Albanians he says he was

14 speaking to knew this information.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, perhaps if you put a bit more direct

17 questions as: Did you learn it in a bar, in the village, wherever?

18 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no, I think that's --

19 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, the question I was directing my comment

20 to wasn't so much how this witness learnt, but how the people he was

21 speaking to --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I would like to have the whole picture,

23 including more details about where and when.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Certainly, Your Honours.

25 Q. Witness, you heard that exchange with Defence counsel and the

Page 1999

1 Trial Chamber now and myself. Now, what we'd all like to know is a bit

2 more about what -- about these bombs -- I'm sorry, the bags supposedly

3 containing the bombs. And you've told us that -- so far that you were --

4 there weren't many Serbs in the area, so the people who told you were

5 Albanians, and that it was -- you've also told us that it happened during

6 informal conversations.

7 Now, can you think back, please, and try and tell us if the --

8 where the informal conversations happened, whether they happened in a

9 coffee shop, or in a bar, or in the street, or at a house of a friend?

10 And secondly, secondly, and importantly, can you tell us if you know how

11 they knew what was in the bags? So try and direct your mind back to

12 those two matters and see if you can provide us with any more details; if

13 you can't, say so. But if you do have any more details, please let us

14 know.

15 A. I can't remember.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, may I ask you, nevertheless, to try hard.

17 Was it when you visited people? Was it when you met people in the street

18 that they told you about it? You said you asked for it. Were you

19 confident to ask?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Given the fact that at the time

21 they started pulling cars over at night, the police and that sort of

22 thing, it was just loose talk, really, and I was involved. And I got to

23 that particular question at one point. I don't remember who I asked the

24 question specifically, but the answer I got at the time was just that.

25 How did that person come to be familiar with that particular piece of

Page 2000

1 information is really not something that I know.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Do I understand from your answer that it was one

3 person who told you, and not several persons who told you the same story?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just one person.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

6 Please proceed, Mr. --

7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: That would be one thing I would be interested in.

8 Mr. Stojanovic, you mentioned that quite a few of the persons who

9 came through Dubrava to the village of Gllogjan were not from the

10 village, and, therefore, the question would have been interesting, I

11 think, where they then went to. Because then you said, Well, they lived

12 there, but according to your first information it's -- it appears to be

13 also a crowd of people from somewhere else. And where they went to, do

14 you know anything about that?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where they were on

16 their way to, but again I must say many of the Albanians worked somewhere

17 abroad. It's possible that those people were residents of Glodjane whose

18 faces I have forgotten. There were people there who did not look

19 familiar to me.

20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay. Thank you.


22 Q. And just one last question on this topic. In answer to the

23 President's question, you said that this piece of information about the

24 bombs in the bags, in the Marlboro bags, occurred in the context of

25 another conversation about loose talk about cars being pulled over at

Page 2001

1 night. Can you tell us if you were given the information about the bags

2 during some more general discussion about what was going on in your area?

3 Do I understand you correctly?

4 A. I'm afraid I don't quite understand the question fully. If you

5 could please run it past me again.

6 Q. You said that you were engaged and there was some loose talk

7 about the cars being pulled over, and that's when the topic of the young

8 men and the bags turned -- arose. What I want to know is: Did you get

9 the information about the young men and what was in the bags during a

10 conversation about the general security situation in your area?

11 A. Yes, yes, it was about the general security situation.

12 Q. All right. Thank you. You earlier mentioned in your evidence

13 the Haradinaj house, which was I think - unless I'm wrong - I think you

14 said quite close to your place. Did that place have a wall around it,

15 the house? Did the Haradinaj house have a wall around it?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Could you see into it from -- into the compound, into the yard,

18 from your house?

19 A. You could, yes.

20 Q. So if one just stood on the ground, you could actually see

21 inside?

22 A. No, not inside. The wall kept us from seeing inside.

23 Q. I want you now again to keep your mind on the first three months

24 of 1998. In that particular time, did you see any vehicular traffic,

25 vehicles, around the Haradinaj compound?

Page 2002

1 A. I did see vehicles bringing construction material, but I also

2 spoke to a number of Albanians who told me that it wasn't just

3 construction material, but beneath all those piles of stuff there were

4 weapons concealed.

5 Q. And, again, can you remember which Albanians it was who provided

6 you with this information?

7 A. I don't remember. A lot of Albanians used to come to our place;

8 therefore, it's difficult to remember who specifically.

9 Q. Did you ever see the number plates on the car -- on the vehicles?

10 A. Most of the times I didn't catch the plates, but normally those

11 were cars belonging to Albanian companies.

12 Q. Thank you. Now, apart from seeing vehicles turn up with

13 construction materials on it, and apart from being told on some occasion

14 by some Albanian that there might have been weapons hidden underneath the

15 construction materials, you have no other information about the topic.

16 Do I understand you correctly?

17 A. No.

18 Q. All right.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic, could you tell us was it one person

20 who told you about these weapons? Were there more?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One, I think one, but I can't

22 remember. It was just loose talk, and sometimes you came across subjects

23 like this.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

Page 2003

1 Q. Now, what was your brother Predrag's job in the first few months

2 of 1998? What was he -- what was his work?

3 A. Since the 1980s, my brother had been with the police in

4 Djakovica.

5 Q. The information that you got about the young men carrying

6 grenades in Marlboro bags and the possibility of weaponry being hidden in

7 the construction materials of -- going to the Haradinaj compound, and

8 people being pulled over at night, as you say, did you ever give your

9 brother details of that, make any sort of report to him?

10 A. No, never. I never really focused on that much. It was just

11 loose talk.

12 Q. But what I want to know is this: Did you report it to him,

13 either in a formal or informal way?

14 A. No, or rather, I rarely even saw him.

15 Q. Did you report it in an informal or formal way to any other

16 Serbian police force member, any other Serbian police officer?

17 A. No. I had no time for things like those --

18 Q. Thank you --

19 A. -- nor would I ever normally be involved in anything like that.

20 Q. Fair enough. Just listen to my question, sir, please. Did you

21 report it in a formal or informal way to any member of the military, the

22 Serb military?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you have any idea what Predrag's job in the police was in the

25 first three months of 1998, what sort of work he did in the police?

Page 2004

1 A. As far as I know, he was a beat copper.

2 Q. And do you know where he was stationed?

3 A. I know very, very little about his job.

4 Q. Do you know where he was stationed in the first three months of

5 1998, where his beat was?

6 A. In Djakovica.

7 Q. And in 1998, in the first three months, did you -- did you - you

8 personally - or any other members of your family possess weapons that

9 were kept at the house, at the house in Dubrava?

10 A. I never did. The only thing there was in our house was a hunting

11 rifle and my father's pistol. I don't think anyone else in our household

12 actually had a weapon, not that I know of.

13 Q. And do you know how long that hunting rifle and pistol had been

14 in the possession of the family?

15 A. I really don't know, believe me.

16 Q. Okay. I'll just persist a little more with that. Can you tell

17 us if it was a matter of days, weeks, months, or years that those two

18 weapons had been in the family?

19 A. It was a matter of years. It was something that my family

20 inherited from my father, who had held a valid licence for it. It was a

21 licensed pistol.

22 Q. Thank you. I now want you to focus more specifically in the

23 month of March 1998, and, in particular, the period of time around the

24 23rd/24th of March, 1998. At that particular time, where were you

25 spending your nights?

Page 2005

1 A. As far as I can recall - and I don't really recall all that --

2 okay, yes, I do remember, I spent my nights at home.

3 Q. Did any -- I don't think it's in dispute. Was there a shoot-out

4 of some sort at the Haradinaj compound around that date?

5 A. I spent my nights at home, but in the morning I would go out, and

6 then I think it seems to me that I came back for a short time, and when I

7 did get back there was gun-fire around the house.

8 Q. Okay. So -- and do you remember the date? It doesn't matter if

9 you don't, but if you -- if you can tell us the date that you're talking

10 about when you came back and there was gun-fire around the house, tell

11 us; if you're not sure, say so.

12 A. Just the date or ...

13 Q. Yes, that's right, just the date.

14 A. The 24th of March, 1998.

15 Q. Now, on that day did you go out on one of your work trips and

16 leave the house?

17 A. I think I did in the morning, but I can't be certain, and then

18 after a while I returned.

19 Q. And what did you notice when you returned?

20 A. I noticed that there was some fighting around Ramush's house.

21 Q. That's obviously quite close to your house. What did you do when

22 you saw what was going on?

23 A. There were police around there, on the road, in my yard, and they

24 ordered me to get in, get inside.

25 Q. Was your mother there?

Page 2006

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Can you remember any other members of your family being present?

3 A. There was my small nephew, a son of my brother Vlado, he was 3

4 years old at the time; and Dragoslav.

5 Q. Did you have a chance to see what sort of weaponry was being

6 used, either by the police or the people against whom they were directing

7 their fire? What sort of weapons were being used?

8 A. I don't know about weapons. There were some rifles. I don't

9 know whether they were automatic rifles or some other kind, I really

10 don't know, I really can't tell you.

11 Q. How many -- about how many police officers were on your land?

12 A. Maybe 15 or 20.

13 Q. How did you even get close to your house in your car? How did

14 you even get the car close to the house if there's all this shooting and

15 policemen milling about the place?

16 A. Well, I had arrived from the direction of Babaloc, and there was

17 no shooting in that area, in the area from which I had come in. There

18 was fighting around the house and then in the direction of Glodjane.

19 Q. Okay. So you came in from Babaloc, which is to the south of

20 Dubrava. So you didn't have to go through Glodjane to get to your house

21 on that day. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Were you able to get the car -- your car close to the house and,

24 obviously, get inside the house without any problems?

25 A. No, there were problems. I had to ask a couple of police

Page 2007

1 officers standing there in the very centre of Dubrava to let me through.

2 Q. And once you made it to your house and laid eyes on your nephew

3 and your mother and brother and were told to get inside, did you remain

4 inside the house?

5 A. Yes, for most of the time; 80 per cent of the time I was inside

6 the house.

7 Q. And did fighting continue that day?

8 A. Yes, all the way until the evening.

9 Q. So fighting continued for a matter of several hours at least; is

10 that correct?

11 A. Yes, yes, yes, several hours. But it moved away from the -- the

12 fighting moved away from Ramush's house. At the time when I arrived, the

13 fighting was there; and then it moved towards the village of Glodjane

14 because the police were trying to pull out a police officer who had been

15 wounded.

16 Q. Thinking back now, when you first arrived, there was -- fighting

17 was already underway; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Fighting was already underway with police officers stationed or

20 positioned around the area, but also on your land; correct?

21 A. Yes, one part of our property --

22 Q. Yeah, okay --

23 A. But mostly --

24 Q. All right. Fine. And fighting continued with police officers in

25 the area -- in the immediate area firing and also from your land firing;

Page 2008

1 correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Eventually the focus of the fighting shifted away from the

4 Haradinaj --

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. -- compound and moved off -- and went -- and made its way towards

7 Glodjane from what you could discern anyway; correct?

8 A. Yes, yes, where I was already able to see them.

9 Q. What do you mean by that?

10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologise, the witness is not

11 speaking very loudly and sometimes it's difficult to understand him.


13 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, try not to mumble and speak clearly and a little

14 bit more loudly, if you wouldn't mind, so the interpreters can hear you.

15 We want to be able to hear what your -- we want to be able to hear what

16 you say. Okay?

17 What I want to know is this: When you got back the fighting was

18 already underway and it took some time for the fighting to move from the

19 Haradinaj compound off towards Glodjane. That is so, isn't it, from what

20 you said?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. About how long would you say it took for the fighting to move

23 away from the Haradinaj compound towards wherever, Glodjane?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. Was it a matter of minutes or some longer time?

Page 2009

1 A. I really can't remember. I think maybe several minutes, but I

2 don't really remember.

3 Q. Okay. And one thing is for sure, it continued for many hours

4 until the evening?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And they were engaged in this fighting at least I think 15 or 20

7 policemen who -- located on your land alone; correct?

8 A. Not all of them were on our land. Some of them walked down the

9 road, some of them were located in a corner of our property, they were

10 hiding behind some bushes and so on.

11 Q. Large numbers of policemen would you say?

12 A. What do you mean large number of policemen? I don't understand.

13 Q. Figures well beyond -- beyond the 20 or so that were on your

14 land?

15 A. Well, there were that many policemen on our land, that's the

16 number that I was able to see and I didn't see the rest. I know that

17 there were some on the road and in the corner of our property. That

18 would be the number of police officers that I actually was able to see,

19 around 20.

20 Q. Thank you. Anyway, it took these numbers of policemen -- well,

21 I'll withdraw that.

22 The police did not appear to have, from what you could see and

23 observe, anything described as a swift victory that day, from what you

24 could see and observe at least?

25 A. That's correct.

Page 2010

1 Q. Thank you. You -- did you stay in the area following this

2 shoot-out?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Okay. And one other question is: Did you see the police

5 employing helicopters and rocket-launchers?

6 A. Yes, I did see helicopters. I didn't see any rocket-launchers.

7 I saw that some helicopters had been trying to land to get the wounded

8 police officer, Otovic, out, to land there, but they failed to do so a

9 number of times.

10 Q. Have you got any idea what was preventing the helicopters from

11 landing and getting the police officer out?

12 A. Well, fire was opened on them from Ramush Haradinaj's house, so

13 they couldn't approach that spot at all. They couldn't get the wounded

14 police officer out.

15 Q. And casualties from this encounter, were you -- you've already

16 mentioned one, and that's the police officer. Did you become aware or

17 were you aware of any Albanian casualties, casualties from the other

18 side, that -- the men that the police were fighting, or indeed anyone

19 else, civilians, for that matter?

20 A. No, I didn't know at the time.

21 Q. What about afterwards, did you find out afterwards?

22 A. The next day I read in "Zeri Rinis" and "Rilindja," I learned

23 that two young men also were casualties.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. I don't know whether this was as a result of this action or

Page 2011

1 whether this was someplace else.

2 Q. Thank you. Did you and your family leave your property that day

3 or the next day?

4 A. No, we left that evening. A police officer came and ordered us

5 to leave our property for security reasons. We had to leave our house.

6 Q. And where did you go?

7 A. Dragoslav and my mother went to Djakovica to make a statement,

8 and I went to Erec, and then I went to my brother's place in Decani.

9 Q. And where did you continue -- where did you personally - I'm not

10 talking about your siblings - but where did you live in the period of

11 time -- in the -- for the remainder of March and the first two weeks of

12 April?

13 A. After a short while, maybe two or three days, my mother, myself,

14 Dragoslav were given accommodation in a camp in Decani. The municipality

15 provided us with this accommodation.

16 Q. What sort of camp is this?

17 A. Well, it was used as a summer resort camp by some companies, but

18 now it was run-down.

19 Q. Is there a monastery near it?

20 A. Yes, the Decani monastery.

21 Q. And was this place -- has it got bungalow -- bungalow-type

22 accommodation?

23 A. Yes, yes, bungalows.

24 Q. And when you went to -- when you and your brother and your mother

25 went to live there, who else was there?

Page 2012

1 A. At that time we did not encounter anyone there, but afterwards

2 other civilians came in, civilians who had had to leave their villages

3 for security reasons, too.

4 Q. What ethnicity were these villagers?

5 A. All of them Serbs.

6 Q. And what villages are we talking about, what area?

7 A. The Decani area, Dasinovac, Ratis, and the villages up there

8 where there had been some Serbs still living there.

9 Q. Okay. Just to -- I just want -- if you can do this, please do.

10 I want you to give us a list of villages -- I want you to give --

11 thinking back at the people who were there who came to this camp, which

12 villages they came from.

13 Now, you've already mentioned the Decani area, that's an area,

14 but you've mentioned specifically Dasinovac and Ratis. Are you aware of

15 this camp containing or accommodating Serbs from other villages other

16 than Dasinovac and Ratis? Can you remember any other Serbs from other

17 villages; and if you know the names of the villages, I want to hear them?

18 A. Ljubarda. Well, I don't know where the other Serbs had come

19 from, but mostly from this area.

20 Q. And did you continue to live there for some weeks?

21 A. I live -- or we lived there for almost a year, but I was on the

22 move all the time. I was going to Belgrade, all over Kosovo, and so on.

23 Q. In the -- sorry?

24 A. But my mother was there all this time.

25 Q. Now, in the height of summer of that year, 1998, about how many

Page 2013

1 Serbs would you say had appeared in this camp?

2 A. Some 30 families or so, maybe more, but I'm sure that there were

3 30 or so.

4 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber if they all came from the

5 area -- from your area or whether they came from further afield, from

6 other parts of Kosovo or other parts of --

7 A. No, only from the municipality of Decani.

8 Q. Okay. And 30 families, what does that translate to in terms of

9 individual people, approximately, of course?

10 A. Well, I really can't tell. Three, four, maybe even more members

11 per family. I really don't know.

12 Q. Thank you. I want to now ask you a little bit about your

13 property. How long had your house and land been with you in your family?

14 A. Well, since 1922, as far as I can remember; this is how long my

15 family owned this property.

16 Q. Do you still own it?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. When was the last time that you went back to it?

19 A. I was there when the OSCE came to Kosovo, and that was the last

20 time. I never went back.

21 Q. Can you give us a time on that, please?

22 A. Well, it was in 1998.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, it's only 22 minutes past, but this

25 would be a natural break because I'm going to get on to other events

Page 2014

1 that -- I'm happy to go on if you prefer, but if it's convenient this

2 would make a more natural time for us to break.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I've got one question: How much time do you

4 think you would need, Mr. Di Fazio?

5 MR. DI FAZIO: 40 minutes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: 40 minutes. Yes.

7 We'll then have an early break. We will resume at ten minutes to

8 11.00, but before we adjourn I would like to briefly deal with the

9 parties with the exhibits of the last witness.

10 So, Madam Usher --

11 We'll have a break, Mr. Stojanovic. Would you please follow the

12 usher.

13 [The witness stands down]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I don't know whether you are in a

15 position to deal with the exhibits for the last witness P31, map marked,

16 any objections? No, it is admitted into evidence. P32, the photograph

17 shown of the village of Glodjane. No objections; admitted into evidence.

18 P33, release sheet of the hospital, no objection; admitted into evidence.

19 P34, video-clip; admitted into evidence since I see the Defence nodding

20 that there are no objections.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Just for your information, the -- it's, as a matter

23 of fact, it's the transcript that is a -- is an e-court document, but it

24 refers to a DVD which is in the hands of the registry.

25 P35, aerial photograph of Glodjane and surroundings, no

Page 2015

1 objection; admitted into evidence. P36, photograph showing the house of

2 Ramush Haradinaj, that's admitted into evidence. Then we move on to the

3 Defence exhibits.

4 I'd like to know whether they will be tendered because -- D22,

5 OTP witness statement of Dragoslav Stojanovic, 2001, is that tendered,

6 Mr. Emmerson?

7 MR. EMMERSON: I think I dealt with it in cross-examination, Your

8 Honour, so I'm happy to leave it that way.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then it remains marked for identification.


11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Not tendered, therefore no admission.

12 D23, Humanitarian Law Centre incident report dated 9th of April,

13 1998.

14 MR. EMMERSON: That is already -- I think that is already an

15 exhibit; if it isn't, then it's tendered.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think as a -- we'll have to check that

17 whether we have that because some of them -- yes. Okay.

18 Any objection? We'll check whether it's -- Mr. Di Fazio, D23,

19 Humanitarian Law Centre report --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: That was part of the material that was introduced by

22 Witness Andjelkovic, if I --

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, is that the -- is that the report dealing

24 with the words of the mother or the --

25 MR. EMMERSON: That's exactly what I'm --

Page 2016

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think it -- well, we have two, as a matter

2 of fact, because D26, I think, as a matter of fact is -- one will be the

3 mother, the other one will be the brother because they both deal with

4 events -- both reports are dated the 9th of February. The one is -- D23

5 is 65 ter 1161; whereas, D26 is 1162.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I could -- could I speak

7 to Mr. Re before I give any indication? I think it's probably going to

8 be no problem at all, but I would just like to check with him before I

9 say anything.

10 MR. EMMERSON: The position is, Your Honour, is that those

11 exhibits - I will be corrected if I'm wrong - were part originally of a

12 collective exhibit tendered by the Prosecution through

13 Marijana Andjelkovic. Now, it wasn't part of the notebook, the

14 translation of which is still to be finalised, but certainly that, as I

15 understand it, is the position. D23 is, indeed, the mother, Ljubica's,

16 report of the 9th of April, and D26 is the brother Vladimir report.


18 MR. EMMERSON: And both are tendered, so far as the Defence are

19 concerned.


21 MR. EMMERSON: For the purposes --

22 JUDGE ORIE: We'll hear from the Prosecution whether there's any

23 objection, but at the same time we'll take the effort to check whether

24 these are already part of the collective. Because then it -- perhaps it

25 would be better to -- we have the specific numbering of the --

Page 2017

1 MR. EMMERSON: eglodj.doc.

2 JUDGE ORIE: eglodj.doc. And we'll check there whether they are

3 already in evidence. Yes.

4 MR. EMMERSON: Can I indicate as a matter of practicality why I

5 separated them out in this way. It's simply that given the pressure of

6 time in the course of the examination of witnesses, it takes such a long

7 time for things to be loaded up and searched through. It seems

8 simpler --


10 MR. EMMERSON: -- when those individual documents, where they're

11 being focused on, to be separately exhibited from the collective batch.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we have the next one is D24. Let me just

13 have a look at what that was. Document ID was ID 020733, Mr. Emmerson.

14 I've got no description on my list at this moment.

15 Madam Registrar, is there -- I could try to find it. Yes, D24.

16 [Trial Chamber confers]

17 JUDGE ORIE: That's the aerial photograph --

18 MR. EMMERSON: Aerial photograph.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, aerial photograph.

20 No objection, Mr. Di Fazio?

21 MR. DI FAZIO: None, Your Honours.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then D24 is admitted into evidence.

23 The 25 press articles Serbian language.

24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I will tender that.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection, Mr. Di Fazio?

Page 2018

1 MR. DI FAZIO: No, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then D25 is admitted into evidence.

3 We will resume at five minutes to 11.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

5 [The witness takes the stand]

6 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

9 Before I proceed, if it's any assistance to you, those other two

10 documents that were not fully admitted into evidence before the break, I

11 can indicate to you that there's no problem with those going fully into

12 evidence.

13 JUDGE ORIE: These are the two Humanitarian Law Centre Institute

14 reports?

15 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So D23 and D26 admitted into evidence under

17 the proviso that even if they are in evidence, perhaps keep it as it is.

18 It's just one page. Yes.

19 MR. EMMERSON: We've checked the position. They are, in fact,

20 part of Exhibit P5, but I hope Your Honours will forgive me, when

21 particular reports --

22 JUDGE ORIE: They have them done double and now in isolated

23 format in evidence as well.

24 Please proceed.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

Page 2019

1 Q. Now, you've told us all about the shoot-out at the Haradinaj

2 compound and how you took up residence in this camp. Following that, did

3 you return to your home in April?

4 A. Not as far as I remember. No. I'm certain that it wasn't in

5 April.

6 Q. All right. Did you go back to your home at all following your

7 going to -- moving to the camp in Decani?

8 A. I said a while ago that I had returned there only for as long as

9 the OSCE mission was still around.

10 Q. Were you ever assaulted or attacked personally, physically, in

11 1998?

12 A. On the 18th of April, 1998 -- I'm sorry, I misunderstood your

13 question the first time around. Back in 1998 on the 18th of April, my

14 brothers Dragoslav and Vesko and I set out to get something from Dubrava.

15 Q. Now, did you make it to Dubrava?

16 A. Yes, we did. We drove through Babaloc and drove all the way to

17 the house.

18 Q. Okay. Now, I want to know who precisely went to Dubrava. You

19 were there; your brother, Dragoslav was there; and the third person, who

20 was that, who was the third person?

21 A. Vesko Stijovic; Veselin Stijovic called Vesko.

22 Q. Now, he's not your brother, is he?

23 A. He's our cousin, which I believe is the word you use around these

24 parts.

25 Q. Right. Okay. Fine. Anyway, you went and did you travel there

Page 2020

1 in the cars that you had mentioned earlier in your evidence, in the Mazda

2 and the Lada?

3 A. Yes. I drove the Lada, and Dragoslav drove the Mazda.

4 Q. And what was the reason you went back to your home?

5 A. We had fled to the camp in Decani, and we didn't have our own

6 things with us, so we drove back to our home to get some things, some

7 personal belongings, and also to get some hay for the livestock that we

8 had previously taken to the monastery in Decani, our own livestock.

9 Q. And did you have a trailer to load the hay into?

10 A. Yes, Dragoslav had a trailer, the kind normally used to tow cars,

11 but we used it for taking all this hay from one place to the other.

12 Q. About what time of day did you get there?

13 A. Between half past 8.00 and 9.00, at least as far as I can

14 remember. I'm not certain.

15 Q. Sure.

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Is this half past 8.00 or 9.00 in the morning?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the morning.

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you for that clarification, Your

20 Honour.

21 Q. Did you start to load up the trailer and the car -- the cars?

22 A. Yes -- no, not the trailer. We loaded stuff into the Lada, Vesko

23 and I did. Dragoslav was trying to fix the trailer. One of the tires

24 was flat and it needed changing.

25 Q. Okay. Now, in your own words, can you tell us what happened

Page 2021

1 next?

2 A. After a brief while, having loaded all the things into the Lada,

3 we heard a shot from Dubrava. We didn't really pay attention to that

4 initial shot; however, this one was soon followed by other shots from

5 Glodjane, more specifically from the direction of Ramush Haradinaj's

6 house. I was standing in the doorway of my house, and then I took cover

7 inside. As far as I can remember, Dragoslav and Veselin dashed straight

8 into the house. Dragoslav did, and I'm not sure about Veselin.

9 After that, the shooting went on for about 40 minutes until they

10 arrived in the front yard, at which point we were ordered to open the

11 door. Dragoslav did, he spoke back to them, and he opened the door. And

12 then between 15, 20, or 30 --

13 Q. Sorry to interrupt you. I just wanted to be clear about one

14 thing. Did the shooting go on for 40 or 14 minutes?

15 A. 40, 40, about 40.

16 Q. All right.

17 A. At least as far as I can now remember.

18 Q. Thanks. And just while we're on this, the shooting, as far as

19 you can tell, was it small-arms fire? By that, I mean rifles or

20 automatic rifles, or was there other weaponry used, as far as you're

21 aware?

22 A. I think automatic weapons and small-arms fire for the most part.

23 Q. And do you know if your house was damaged?

24 A. The window-panes were smashed and the Lada was damaged. It was

25 parked just in front of the Mazda, and it was damaged on all sides.

Page 2022

1 Bullets had ricochetted through the windows and into the rooms.

2 Q. And how did you protect yourself?

3 A. Well, given the fact that there is a corridor there and doors

4 leading into all the rooms, we for the most part took cover in that

5 hallway, corridor. And while the attacks continued, Dragoslav every once

6 in a while looked to the window. To the extent that he could, he would

7 pop up to see what was going on outside.

8 Q. Thank you. And can you just tell us this: Were any of you three

9 men - you, Dragoslav, or your cousin - armed?

10 A. None of us were, not before, not now.

11 Q. Okay. Right. Thank you. And you had got to your point in your

12 narrative before where you said that -- I'm not sure, a number of men

13 appeared or came to the house. Just continue from there and give us

14 details of about how many men appeared at the house, and I'd also like to

15 know how they were dressed and whether they were armed.

16 A. They were dressed in camouflage uniform and armed with small

17 arms. Their uniforms were camouflage uniforms.

18 Q. Did all of the men have camouflage uniforms and were the uniforms

19 complete; that is, in the sense from neck to -- neck to toe in camouflage

20 or were they partially camouflaged?

21 A. No, not all did. There were soldiers who had the camouflage

22 tops, and the bottoms were just jeans or other kind of civilian clothes,

23 or the other way around. So it was a mixed bag, you might say.

24 Q. And did they have any insignia on them that you can recall?

25 A. As far as I remember, they had the Kosovo Liberation Army

Page 2023

1 insignia.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Could we show the witness P9, please.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, wouldn't it be a better idea first to

5 ask the witness whether he could describe such an item, and then --

6 MR. DI FAZIO: That's a good idea. Thank you, Your Honour.



9 Q. You heard His Honour's question. What did it look like before we

10 show you anything?

11 A. On the outside it was red, and inside there was a double-headed

12 eagle and then "UCK," which stands for Kosovo Liberation Army underneath

13 in yellow letters.

14 Q. Thanks. Okay. Can you have a look at this thing that will come

15 up on your screen, please. Have you seen that before, that symbol?

16 A. Yes, I saw it the moment they captured us. I hadn't seen it

17 before then.

18 Q. Yes. Thank you.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm done with that.

20 Q. Did you recognise any of the men who came in -- who were at your

21 house on this occasion?

22 A. The first to come in through the veranda door was Ramush's

23 brother Daut, who was then followed by Xhavit Nimonaj. I recognised

24 quite many of them, but we were soon ordered to lie down and to lie face

25 down. When we lay down on the floor, they started beating us, me and

Page 2024

1 Veselin. Dragoslav was hit by Daut with a rifle-butt on the way in

2 already, and they started beating us and verbally abusing us.

3 Q. Can you remember what they were saying to you in terms of verbal

4 abuse? Can you remember the actual -- the actual words?

5 A. Normally, it was about our Serb mothers and other derogatory

6 terms like that.

7 Q. Was there reference in the course of the abuse to your ethnicity,

8 to the fact that you were Serbs, apart from reference to your Serb

9 mothers?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. The -- you've already told us about Daut Haradinaj,

12 but this other fellow Xhavit Nimonaj, where was he from?

13 A. One of our neighbours, our left-hand neighbour, when looking from

14 Dubrava to Glodjane. Same distance as Ramush.

15 Q. And had he been a neighbour of yours for many years?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. How long were you in the house before you were taken

18 away?

19 A. Very briefly. I can't be more specific, but very briefly, and

20 then we were taken outside to the front yard. They ID'd us and told us

21 to keep our heads down, to not look them in the face. And they asked me

22 and Veselin to produce our IDs, which we did.

23 Q. Why -- what about Dragoslav, was he asked to produce ID or not?

24 A. I don't remember. In the meantime, Nasim Haradinaj had arrived.

25 Q. And who is Nasim Haradinaj?

Page 2025

1 A. Nasim Haradinaj is Ramush Haradinaj's cousin.

2 Q. And had you known him for a number of years from the local area?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. You've described some of the verbal abuse and

5 Dragoslav being hit by the rifle-butt by Daut Haradinaj. In the house,

6 how -- what -- did you and Veselin also receive any beating?

7 A. Yes. We were lying face-down, so I couldn't see who it was

8 beating me and hitting me with rifle-butts and kicking me. I really

9 couldn't see who it was.

10 Q. Okay. At this juncture, at this point where you had been beaten

11 and the three of you are outside and you're being told to produce ID and

12 then -- and then keep your heads down, could you tell if any of you, any

13 of you three, were -- had any visible signs of injury; in other words, if

14 there was blood on any of you at that point?

15 A. Not at that point. I wasn't really looking. We weren't able to

16 even look at each other, since we'd been told to keep our heads down.

17 Q. All right. And where did you go from there?

18 A. Well, after a while, I'm not sure how long, they started taking

19 us to the Glodjane HQ, or at least that's what they said.

20 Q. And where did you actually end up?

21 A. We went to Smajl Haradinaj's house. He is the father of Nasim

22 Haradinaj. On our way there, they kept verbally abusing us and hitting

23 us and firing bullets behind us and just past our heads.

24 Q. Did you walk there?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2026

1 Q. Now, think back on the trip from your place to Smajl Haradinaj's

2 house. On the way, on the way from your place to Smajl Haradinaj's

3 house, did you recognise anyone?

4 A. At one point I did on the way to the house.

5 Q. Who?

6 A. Ramush Haradinaj near the front yard. There is a small path

7 forking off in the direction of his house, and I recognised many of my

8 neighbours who were involved in the whole process; but they kept telling

9 us to not look left and right but just to keep our heads down.

10 Q. Now where -- you say you recognised Ramush Haradinaj near the

11 front yard. Where was he located, the front yard of whose house?

12 A. No, he was outside the front yard of the house on that path- what

13 should I call it? - I'm not sure if I can clarify that any further.

14 There was a meadow and a small path leading to his house.

15 Q. To the Haradinaj compound, the one that you described earlier; is

16 that the place?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And was he alone when you saw him or was he in company with other

19 people?

20 A. As far as I remember, there were two or three other persons, two

21 of them standing there.

22 Q. And what sort of clothing did he have on when you saw him?

23 A. Green camouflage and a red beret.

24 Q. A what? A red beret?

25 A. Black, black, I'm sorry, black, black beret.

Page 2027

1 Q. And about how far from Smajl Haradinaj's house is -- was this

2 place that you saw him?

3 A. 700 to 800 metres, not more.

4 Q. All right?

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Did we understand correctly 700 to 800 metres,

6 not more?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Between his house and Smajl's

8 house.

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

11 Q. And you were taken to Smajl Haradinaj's house, and where in the

12 place were you taken to?

13 A. We were taken to his house, which had stood empty for quite some

14 time because Smajl Haradinaj's family were not staying in Glodjane up

15 until several days before. They had been somewhere abroad. As far as I

16 know, they had been in Sweden. Again, we were taken to the first floor.

17 Q. This house, this Smajl Haradinaj's house, up until the time of

18 the shoot-out at the Haradinaj compound on the 24th of March, up until

19 that period of time, had the house been vacant? Do I understand you

20 correctly?

21 A. Yes, the house had stood empty up until that time, until we were

22 taken away.

23 Q. All right. Anyway. On this day you were taken there, and you

24 said you were taken up to the first floor. Tell the Trial Chamber

25 what -- how events transpired after that.

Page 2028

1 A. When we went up to the top floor, just to the right there is a

2 narrow corridor and a small room, and that's where Dragoslav was taken.

3 Vesko and I were left to wait outside in the corridor.

4 Q. And what could you see and hear following Dragoslav being taken

5 into the room?

6 A. When I came in, I saw certain young men clean their weapons and

7 oil their rifles, regular maintenance if you like. They'd probably been

8 given those weapons in those very days. I saw a number of young soldiers

9 go up and go into the guest-room.

10 Q. Now, this room that you call the guest-room, is that the room

11 that Dragoslav was taken into?

12 A. No, no. Not now. He was first taken to this small room 3 by 2,

13 I think. It certainly was no larger than that, 3 by 2 metres.

14 Q. Okay. So just so it's all clear for everyone in the courtroom,

15 you're up on the first floor, you're in a corridor, there's a guest-room

16 and also a small -- small room?

17 A. Small room, and there's a small, narrow corridor separating the

18 two rooms.

19 Q. Okay. Right. Now, Veselin you said was taken into the small

20 room. Did you hear him from where you were placed? Could you hear him?

21 A. Not Veselin; Dragoslav was. At first, Dragoslav was the one who

22 was taken into that small room.

23 Q. Yes, I apologise, that was my mistake. Dragoslav was taken into

24 the small room. Could you hear him from where you were placed?

25 A. We could hear him.

Page 2029

1 Q. Okay. Now, you told the Trial Chamber how events unfolded, and I

2 want you to also tell the Trial Chamber not only what you could see but

3 what you could hear as well.

4 A. A short while later Dragoslav got sick inside the room, and he

5 was thrown out; after that they took Veselin inside. I could hear

6 Veselin's screams and moans.

7 Q. This expression "Dragoslav got sick," any idea how he got sick?

8 A. It wasn't until later that I found out that Dragoslav had been

9 offered some coffee, which he drank. It was probably because of the

10 previous beating that he had sustained that complications arose and --

11 Q. Witness, Witness, just slow down and I want to get more detail

12 than I think you are providing. You've told us that you took him -- that

13 all three of you went up to this first floor. And you've told us there's

14 this guest-room there and you've told us that there's a small room. Now,

15 you've also told us that Dragoslav was taken into the small room.

16 A. In the small room, yes.

17 Q. Now, when Dragoslav was inside that small room, what could you

18 hear with your ears? What could you hear?

19 A. Well, screams that followed after the blows. I don't know

20 what -- I don't know what actually happened inside, but I could hear the

21 screams.

22 Q. And who was doing the screaming?

23 A. Dragoslav, of course.

24 Q. Thank you. That's what I wanted to know. Now, how long did that

25 go on for?

Page 2030

1 A. Well, I couldn't really tell you how long it took.

2 Q. When you next saw Dragoslav, what was his condition and his

3 appearance?

4 A. Dragoslav could not breathe. This is when they decided to throw

5 him out into the corridor. He was pale, clutching his stomach, and at

6 one point, he simply had to lie down on the concrete floor.

7 Q. Did he have any blood on him?

8 A. There was some blood on his face but not a lot.

9 Q. After he was thrown into the corridor, what happened to you and

10 your cousin Veselin?

11 A. Then Veselin was taken into the room. They started beating him.

12 After a while, they brought me in, too.

13 Q. Okay. Now, just pause it there. Firstly, how do you know that

14 they started beating him, too, if you weren't there? Could you hear

15 anything?

16 A. Yes, yes. I could hear his screams while he was -- while I was

17 in the small corridor.

18 Q. And, eventually, you said that you were -- that after a while,

19 they brought you in. Now, when you first went into the room, what did

20 you see?

21 A. I saw Veselin, he was facing a corner. He was naked to his

22 waist. After that, when I got in, Zeqir Nimonaj, who was there, ordered

23 me to take off my clothes down to the waist.

24 Q. Did you do that?

25 A. Yes.

Page 2031

1 Q. And what happened then?

2 A. Well, then they started questioning me. There was a small desk.

3 As far as I can remember, Besnik was sitting there, Besnik Haradinaj. He

4 is Rasim Haradinaj's son, and that was Ramush Haradinaj's cousin. And he

5 asked questions that we had to answer, and if they were not happy with

6 the answer, then they would continue beating us.

7 Q. Were you struck? Were you struck and beaten by these men?

8 A. Yes, yes. They beat us. We couldn't and we didn't dare beat

9 them. There were two other people there who beat us all the time.

10 Q. Okay. Now, I'd just like to get a few more details about this

11 scene. Firstly, how was Besnik -- how was Besnik and the two men whom

12 you didn't know, how were they dressed?

13 A. Besnik was in a black uniform, a military-type uniform; and the

14 other two, as far as I can remember, they were wearing camouflage

15 uniforms.

16 Q. And what about Zeqir Nimonaj, what was he -- how was he dressed?

17 A. Zeqir Nimonaj was in a camouflage uniform.

18 Q. Did you see any KLA insignia on any of the men in that room?

19 A. Yes, all of them wore KLA insignia.

20 Q. And were you beaten with -- how were you beaten, just with fists

21 and boots or were instruments used or a combination? Tell us precisely?

22 A. Zeqir had some kind of a rod with a wooden handle, and from this

23 handle there protruded some kind of a rubber rod of some kind, and it had

24 a spring wound around it. And then at the top there was a lead ball, and

25 it caused a lot of pain, and the blow was really hard even if the person

Page 2032

1 wielding it did not strike very hard. They also struck us with

2 rifle-butts and pistols, and although we were facing the wall for most of

3 the time, we didn't dare look at them. A couple of times I asked Zeqir,

4 Why are you doing this, Zeqir? And he said, Don't mention my name at

5 all. He told me that I was a Chetnik and he cursed my Serbian mother.

6 He was generally verbally abusive towards me.

7 Q. During this process, did any other individuals come in, apart

8 from Zeqir, Besnik, and the two other unknown KLA men? Did anyone else

9 come in or make an appearance?

10 A. Well, people would come in and out, but I personally could not

11 see who it was that got in or got out. But several people got in, then

12 some other people would get out. I could hear their foot steps as they

13 walked in and out the door.

14 Q. Eventually the beating must have ended. Can you give us an idea

15 of, if you can of course, of how long you were in there being beaten in

16 this fashion?

17 A. Well, I can't remember now, but it lasted for a long time. After

18 a while, Veselin and I were thrown out and we saw Dragoslav lying there.

19 He was half dead.

20 Q. Thank you. And now I'd like you to give the Trial Chamber

21 appearances, please. Were you -- do you know if you had blood on your

22 face or blood on your clothing or -- and indeed blood on your torso or

23 legs?

24 A. As far as I can remember, there was no blood on me. Dragoslav

25 was already lying in a pool of blood. He had vomited blood, and he had a

Page 2033

1 head injury. I hadn't seen until that moment that he had this injury on

2 his nose. It was only then that I realised he had been injured on the

3 nose, and he was unconscious.

4 I tried to help him, and the soldiers that were guarding us in

5 this same corridor, there would be at any given time five, six, or ten

6 soldiers guarding us, sometimes only two of them, but they would not

7 allow me to assist him. Every time I wanted to help Dragoslav, I had to

8 ask for their permission and then they would either give it to me or not.

9 Until the time that we left, they would approach us. They would

10 slap us, hit us; to be more specific, there was this guy who was called

11 the Russian. That was the first time that I saw him there in Glodjane,

12 he slapped us and he took some kind of a rod or a baton and he hit

13 Dragoslav even though he was unconscious, then he hit Veselin, and then

14 he hit me. Because it seemed to him that I was the fittest person there

15 of all of them, and he beat me until he got tired. He beat me until he

16 broke out in a sweat with this metal baton. I didn't dare to look up at

17 all. I kept my head down all the time.

18 Q. Thank you. By the time this had all gone on, what was the

19 visible condition of Veselin?

20 A. Well, how to explain to you? Veselin was in a lot of pain. He

21 had blood on his ears. I don't know how to actually describe him, the

22 condition he was in.

23 Q. Right. But could you see blood on his face -- around his ears?

24 A. Yes, yes, yes, around his ears there was blood. I don't know

25 why, I can't remember now.

Page 2034

1 Q. Okay. Thank you. Did Dragoslav regain consciousness?

2 A. Dragoslav would drift in and out of consciousness all the time.

3 The moment Dragoslav went in a coma, I would try and help him and then

4 some soldiers would not allow me to do so. They would hit me with the

5 rifle-butts. It was terrible. I had to watch him. I thought he was

6 dying. I couldn't help him. So he was -- he would lose consciousness,

7 then he would come to.

8 Q. Thank you. Now, your ordeal must have ended. I'd like you now

9 to turn your attention as to how eventually you got out of that place.

10 You've described in detail the beatings. Did you eventually leave the

11 place?

12 A. Yes. At one moment, Nasim Haradinaj approached us, and he said

13 that we would be released and that they had decided to give us a vehicle.

14 I assumed then that this was my Lada because Dragoslav's Mazda 626 was a

15 relatively newer vehicle. And I said, Nasim, If you want to kill us,

16 kill us here. Don't torture us any longer if you want to release us.

17 And then he said -- he asked me, Where do you think I should take you

18 first? And then I told him that if they were really in earnest about

19 letting us go, that they should take us to the village of Babaloc because

20 some Serbian refugees who had come from Albania were living there at the

21 time.

22 And at that moment, he and I and a third person went towards the

23 house to take the car, one of my cars -- one of the two cars. And as we

24 headed there, we were talking as if nothing had happened in the meantime.

25 He asked me, Why did you leave the house? Why didn't we join them? Why

Page 2035

1 didn't we stay there? He said, Well, we should -- you should stay here,

2 you should go to our schools, and so on.

3 And en route to Ramush Haradinaj's house that I described earlier

4 on the small path, I saw my Lada car and it was riddled with

5 bullet-holes. The wheels were on the rims, all the tires had been taken

6 away. And then Nasim said, Well, all you have to do is fix it. I tried

7 fixing it, and as soon as I opened --

8 Q. Okay. Can I just ask you to pause there now? I just want to

9 refer back to part of the narrative, and I just want to clarify a few

10 features of it. Firstly, was the Lada where you had parked it

11 originally?

12 A. No. The Lada was parked in the yard when we got arrested, and

13 now I found it on the path. It was not a road, it was a path that led to

14 Ramush Haradinaj's house.

15 Q. On the way from this Smajl Haradinaj's house where you had been

16 beaten and tortured, on the way to your car, the Lada, did you recognise

17 anyone? Did you see anyone that you recognised?

18 A. Yes. As we went there, I did see Eljmi Haradinaj [as

19 interpreted] in the yard. He had come earlier and I had seen him -- I

20 saw him there standing with Ramush Haradinaj. There was some other

21 soldiers there standing there in groups of two or three in this large

22 courtyard of Smajl's house. I can't remember whether they were standing

23 there separately or in those groups, but Ramush's father was standing

24 there. That's what I'm sure about.

25 JUDGE STOLE: Is that Hilmi? It says in the transcript

Page 2036

1 "Eljmi" Haradinaj. Is it Hilmi, the father?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hilmi, yeah, with an H.

3 JUDGE STOLE: Thank you.


5 Q. And you said that you were sure about him. What about

6 Ramush Haradinaj? You said you saw him standing there with

7 Ramush Haradinaj, are you sure it was Ramush?

8 A. Yes, I'm 100 per cent sure.

9 Q. And is that as you were coming out of Smajl Haradinaj's house on

10 the way to the car, on the way to the Lada?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. All right. Did you manage to get the Lada working?

13 A. No, I tried to fix the Lada, but when I found the jack I realised

14 that I once -- even if I could get it up, that there was some problems,

15 problems -- major problems with the engine, that parts of the engine had

16 been destroyed, and I tried to fix it. And Nasim was standing there

17 maybe 10 or 12 metres away from me and he was looking on. At one moment,

18 he approached me, and he asked me if I could fix it, and I said no, I

19 couldn't. Then we decided to go back to the HQ.

20 Q. And --

21 A. They decided that I should go back to the headquarters.

22 Q. All right. And is that what you did?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And was that -- when you say the "HQ," I take it you're referring

25 to Smajl Haradinaj's house, that place?

Page 2037

1 A. Yes -- well, I wouldn't actually call it the headquarters. I

2 would prefer to call it a prison.

3 Q. Okay, but that building, Smajl Haradinaj's house?

4 A. Yes, yes.

5 Q. And did you go back there; and if so, what did you do when you

6 arrived?

7 A. When I got back, I asked Nasim for permission to get Dragoslav

8 down. When I got upstairs, Dragoslav was not in the corridor where he

9 had been when I left -- when I'd left. I found him in the guest-room

10 next to the door, and I said to Veselin that we should get him

11 downstairs. Nobody paid any attention to us. Nobody beat us anymore. I

12 was able to get Dragoslav down the stairs.

13 We stood there in the courtyard for a while, and then Hilmi,

14 Ramush's father, approached us. He offered us some food and something to

15 drink, and we said that we couldn't because of the beating that we had

16 undergone, we didn't dare. And it didn't occur to us -- we really didn't

17 feel like eating or drinking anything.

18 We stood there I don't know how long, and then we started

19 walking, although ostensibly we were supposed to wait there for an

20 official car to come and take us there. So we started walking towards

21 the house where, as Nasim had explained to me, they would have to carry

22 out a search of our property.

23 And as we left Glodjane, a tractor came out, that must have been

24 a fourth or a fifth house in the village, a tractor came out of one of

25 the houses. I know -- I don't know the name of this man, but I know

Page 2038

1 which house he was from, and we asked him to take Dragoslav with -- on

2 the tractor because he was in such a bad shape.

3 First, they put him outside, but because he was in such a bad

4 shape, they moved him into the -- into cabin of the tractor. And I

5 walked with Nasim behind.

6 When we got to the house, Nasim ordered me -- well, there was a

7 fig tree in our yard, and my mother would put corn-stalks around it every

8 winter to prevent it from freezing.

9 Q. Can I ask you to pause there? Did they search the fig tree and

10 the house for weapons?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Right. Any weapons found?

13 A. Yes, I was about to explain all this. They thought that there

14 was something hidden at the fig tree because of this amount of

15 corn-stalks around it. He handed me a knife, and I started cutting the

16 rope or the string that it was tied up with, and then when they saw that

17 there was nothing there but corn-stalks --

18 Q. Okay. Thanks for that, and you've taken us -- you've made up

19 some ground in time. Thanks for giving us that. Just a couple of

20 questions. You've told us that they were -- said they had to search the

21 house, and you've told us about them searching the tree and so on. All I

22 want to know is: At the end of all of this process, did they find any

23 weapons in your house?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Now, think back to the time that you were in -- well, right up

Page 2039

1 until that point, had any of them, Nasim or any of the men who first came

2 into your house or any of the interrogators at the Smajl Haradinaj's

3 house, had they asked you any questions about the activities of your

4 mother, what she was up to in the preceding months?

5 A. No, they did not ask any questions about my mother.

6 Q. Fine. Okay. Did they make any accusations against you -- well,

7 let me withdraw that. Did they make any accusations against your mother?

8 A. No, not against our mother, but they kept on calling us spies all

9 the time.

10 Q. Did they ever provide details of the spy -- your spying

11 activities?

12 A. No. They had their suspicions because -- as our brother was a

13 police officer, they suspected us of relaying information to him.

14 Q. Did they say that or is that what you think? That's what I want

15 to know.

16 A. Well, that's what I thought --

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. -- that these were the suspicions that they had because I can't

19 understand why anybody would call us spies for no reason.

20 Q. So I want to be clear about that. That's something you thought;

21 correct?

22 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, just before my learned friend pursues that

23 line of questioning, can he be clear about what it is that he is saying

24 is something the witness thought, because the transcript makes it clear

25 that the witness was indicating that he, or they, had been called spies

Page 2040

1 on that occasion. In other words, had been orally accused of spying.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I'll -- let me approach it this way.

3 Q. In your answer you said: "No, they" -- I asked you: "Did they

4 ever provide details of the -- your spying ...?"

5 And you said: "No. They had their suspicions because -- as our

6 brother was a police officer, they suspected us of relaying information

7 to him."

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I had some difficulties in

9 understanding your last observation because what I understood, there are

10 two issues: First of all, what they said, that is that they were spying;

11 and the second is why this witness thought they may have said that. And

12 I do understand that the first -- that's at least what his testimony

13 tells me, but let's just verify.

14 Mr. Stojanovic, is it true that they said that you are spies?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they often said that as they

16 beat us. Zeqir would just say, You spy, you spy, you Chetnik, you

17 Chetnik, and this kind of insults. And that is why -- I mean, that is

18 the only reason that may have prompted them to suspect us of spying.

19 They had no other basis for those accusations.

20 JUDGE ORIE: These are your thoughts and not what they said?

21 They didn't say, You're spies because you relay all the information to

22 your brother, but that's your own thoughts?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, they didn't say that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, that's clear.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

Page 2041

1 Q. All right. Let's move on to another topic, your continuation of

2 your narrative of events. You've told us that you made -- you got -- the

3 three of you got back to your place, and the place was searched and the

4 fig tree was searched. Did you eventually leave your house and -- in

5 company with KLA soldiers?

6 A. Before we headed out, this other person who was with Nasim went

7 through the house, although they knew that they had already searched it,

8 turned it over. While we were standing there in the courtyard, Nasim

9 went in and cut a curtain into pieces and used it to blindfold us and to

10 tie our hands.

11 And at one point, an Ascona, an Opel Ascona car, came by, and

12 they put us into this car and took us to Babaloc. And from time to time

13 they would stop, and then they would talk with some people, and they

14 would say, Well, these are good guys. We decided to save their lives.

15 We don't want the bread to kill us, that's what they said. This is a

16 verbatim translation from Albanian. I understand Albanian, so that's

17 what they said. And they kept saying that until all the way down to

18 Babaloc, until they took us out of the car.

19 There they turned the car around. Dragoslav was sitting on the

20 opposite side. They told me I should not turn around, I should not look

21 back, and I should then go to my brother and took his -- take his hand

22 and take him down. For the first hundred metres, we were ordered not to

23 look back, and we were ordered to walk and then we were allowed to run

24 after that distance.

25 Everybody knew there in the camp, in Babaloc, that we would come.

Page 2042

1 The Serbs in Babaloc had been notified by my brother. They saw us

2 arrive, so they come and picked us up in a car and took us to the health

3 centre in Decani. And from there, they transferred us immediately to

4 Pec --

5 Q. Just hold it there. This -- you said the Serbs in Babaloc had

6 been notified by your brother, and they saw you arrive and came and

7 picked you up in a car. Which brother notified them, and how did he know

8 to do that? What had he notified them of?

9 A. The brother in the Lada had notified them that we had left -- or

10 the brother named Vlado told them that morning, because the police no

11 longer went to that area. So the assumption was that we had been

12 captured because the original deal had been for us to be back within an

13 hour or an hour and a half at most.

14 Q. Right. Thank you. I understand. So you're not aware of your

15 brother actually passing on any message; you were late, you had expected

16 to be back sooner. Do I understand you correctly?

17 A. Precisely, precisely.

18 Q. And this area that you moved into, this area around Babaloc - it

19 might be an obvious question but I want to know the answer - was that an

20 area that was where Serb police still maintained control and Serbs were

21 able to live?

22 A. Yes, there's a settlement there of refugees, Serbs, who had fled

23 from Albania. The UN and the state had built a number of houses for them

24 in the area which they moved into and --

25 Q. Fine, fine. Thank you. Now, when you first got out of the Lada,

Page 2043

1 when you first got out of the Lada, were you all blindfolded or not?

2 A. Yes, we were all blindfolded. Nasim undid these one by one and

3 simply took them off.

4 Q. And what did Nasim say to you at that point after he'd taken off

5 your blindfolds?

6 A. As I said a while ago he said, Don't look back. If you look back

7 you'll be fired at by our check-points. Our people are monitoring your

8 movements, that sort of thing.

9 Q. Okay. I take it you took his advice and kept walking?

10 A. Very much so. We did exactly what we'd been told. I was afraid

11 that if I were to do anything differently, what he had predicted would

12 come true.

13 Q. All right. And I don't think this is in dispute, your brother

14 was -- he went to hospital and was treated in hospital. Did you also

15 receive medical attention?

16 A. I received medical attention in Pec. I was offered to remain in

17 hospital, but it was for the security reasons that I refused. I did have

18 to go back for treatment with Veselin every day.

19 Q. Okay. Thank you very much for answering my questions?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I have no further

21 questions.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

23 Before I give an opportunity for cross-examination, is there

24 agreement among the parties where Smajl's house is? Because I've heard a

25 lot of details, names of schools, et cetera, but it's still unclear

Page 2044

1 whether on any of the evidential material, either on the photographs, we

2 can find it because -- or is it part of the compound we found on the

3 aerial photograph? It's not clear to me.

4 MR. EMMERSON: I can indicate to Your Honours this much without

5 obviously giving evidence at this stage myself --

6 JUDGE ORIE: No, if the parties agree --

7 MR. EMMERSON: It hasn't been the subject of any formal agreement

8 I'm sure it will be possible for us to discuss between ourselves but it's

9 in the village of Glodjane as opposed to outside near the border with

10 Dubrava.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps show the witness the picture of the

12 village, the aerial picture, and ask him whether he can --

13 MR. EMMERSON: Okay.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Because the same question was put to the other

15 witness, but he was not able to --

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I've got no problem with that at all. I encourage

17 it.

18 JUDGE ORIE: At least so we know where it is. Yes.

19 But now I have to find which exactly -- it's the arrow --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: 35 --

21 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's 35 -- 2 or --

22 MR. DI FAZIO: 35, I think.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, 35. Could P35 be shown to the witness. Oh,

24 no, it's not P35. I take it it's P32. P35 seems the ... or isn't

25 even --

Page 2045

1 MR. DI FAZIO: I wasn't quite sure which one actually, Your

2 Honour --

3 JUDGE ORIE: The one where you can see houses, et cetera.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: The larger overall view?


6 Well, I didn't have this one in mind as a matter of fact but

7 there is a --

8 MR. EMMERSON: Could perhaps we proceed with cross-examination

9 and then clarify --


11 MR. EMMERSON: -- that issue after the break.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now I also remember what the problem was.

13 During the opening statement you used a far clearer picture of the

14 village which gives a better possibility for orientation. If that could

15 be in one way -- I see that was U014-3045 in the photographs that has

16 been shown to us during the -- or at least was in the bundle provided to

17 us in the -- but please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

18 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

19 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, I want to start, if I may, by asking you some

20 questions about the evidence that you've given us of your knowledge of

21 the Haradinaj brothers going back to the times when you lived in Dubrava

22 before you left for your military service in 1982.

23 Now, first of all, you gave evidence a little earlier on today

24 that you had known Ramush Haradinaj ever since you started in fifth grade

25 at school when you had been transferred from school in Gjakove to Irzniq

Page 2046

1 before moving on again to school in Decane. Is that right?

2 A. School to Rznic, yes.

3 Q. You told us that you were transferred to Irzniq in the fifth

4 grade. Is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And how old would you have been then, in the fifth grade?

7 A. Fifth grade, about 12 -- I can't remember.

8 Q. And how long were you at this school at Irzniq before you

9 transferred to Decane for the remainder of your schooling? How long were

10 you at the village school in Irzniq?

11 A. Three, three years.

12 Q. So between roughly the ages of 12 and 15?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And I think it's common ground that Ramush Haradinaj's just about

15 four and a half years younger than you are, so presumably during that

16 time he would have been something between 7 and 11 while you were at

17 school together, at the same school?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then you moved off to school in Decane. Is that right?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And that's where you stayed until you left Dubrava for your

22 military service in 1982. Is that right?

23 A. I did go to school in Decani, but I went home every day. I

24 commuted between Dubrava and Decani. It was only during school that I

25 would be in Decani, and after that I would go back home.

Page 2047

1 Q. Yes, I understand, it was a day school. And then in 1982, you

2 left Dubrava for your military service; yes?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And how long was your military service for?

5 A. 12 months.

6 Q. And immediately after your military service, did you then go to

7 study at the university in Belgrade?

8 A. As far as I remember, I spent about two months in Kosovo, after

9 which I went to Belgrade.

10 Q. And I think you didn't finish your university in Belgrade, but

11 you did then at some point start work --

12 A. No, I didn't. Yes.

13 Q. But you did then, I think, start working in Belgrade in a shoe

14 factory for some time. Is that right?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. And perhaps it doesn't matter exactly when that was, but could we

17 put it -- summarise it this way: You didn't return to live in Dubrava

18 until 1995. Is that correct?

19 A. Correct.

20 Q. So going back to the time when you left, if I've got my

21 calculations correct you were not living in Dubrava for a period of about

22 13 years from 1982 through to 1995, you were not -- that was not your

23 permanent home during that 13-year period. Is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And at the time you left for your military service,

Page 2048

1 Ramush Haradinaj would have been around 13. Is that right?

2 A. I don't know, I don't know.

3 Q. Well, you --

4 A. I suppose your calculation must be right.

5 Q. Now, to just get a sense of how well you really knew the brothers

6 of the Haradinaj family from the interaction that you'd had with them,

7 how many brothers are there?

8 A. Six. As far as I know, there were six of them.

9 Q. And apart from Ramush and Daut, do you know the names of any of

10 the others?

11 A. I said I didn't, didn't I? They were a lot younger; that was why

12 I didn't know them. I knew them as kids from the area. I used to see

13 them every now and then, but I didn't actually know them. They were

14 neighbours after all.

15 Q. Well, I'm going to suggest to you that what you've just said is

16 wrong and that they were not kids at all, but that two of them, Luan and

17 Shkelzen, were in their mid and late 20s in 1998; they were just two and

18 four years younger, respectively, than Ramush and older than Daut, they

19 were between the two. Did you know them?

20 A. I was talking about the younger ones. I didn't say anything

21 about the older ones.

22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the

23 witness's answer.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please repeat your answer, Mr. Stojanovic?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was talking about the younger

Page 2049

1 ones. I said I didn't know those, the younger ones, those.


3 Q. Do you know or did you know the names of the older ones? Because

4 you were asked the question by Mr. Di Fazio earlier on whether you knew

5 the names of any of the brothers? Did you know the names of the older

6 ones?

7 A. No, no, no, I didn't. By pure coincidence, I went to school with

8 those. Since the move to the new house, I met the two of them and those

9 two I did go to school with.

10 Q. And so, again, just so that we're clear, is it your evidence that

11 you were not at school with Shkelzen and Luan Haradinaj?

12 A. Yes, I may have been, it just -- I don't remember. For a while

13 they lived in the centre of the village, across the way from Smajl's

14 house.

15 Q. Presumably, Mr. Stojanovic, you weren't close friends with this

16 boy who was --

17 A. No, no.

18 Q. And just so that I can make the question clear: You weren't

19 close friends with Ramush Haradinaj?

20 A. No, apart from the fact that we travelled together. We didn't

21 talk in any special way or socialise. We weren't on visiting terms. For

22 example, I never went -- I only ever went when his father, Hilmi, came,

23 to mow the lawn. There was this one year, I can't remember specifically

24 when, we had someone who did that for us, so I went over to -- to his

25 house to mow his lawn.

Page 2050

1 Q. And the other older brothers, did you get to know them at all?

2 A. I probably did, but I don't remember.

3 Q. I mean, whilst you were at school - perhaps you can help us with

4 this - did you know the name of Ramush Haradinaj?

5 A. Yes, yes. I do remember knowing his name.

6 Q. And do you remember knowing the names of the others while you

7 were at school?

8 A. No. By pure coincidence, Ramush and I come from the same area.

9 There were a few students travelling to school at the same time that we

10 did, and that's why I knew Ramush's name, and that's why I knew Ramush.

11 Q. I understand that's your evidence, Mr. Stojanovic, and the

12 question I had asked you, and I thought you had answered, was that --

13 whether the other brothers also went to the school with you, and I

14 thought your evidence was, They may have done, I don't know?

15 A. I don't remember, I simply don't remember.

16 Q. Looking at the 13-year period that you were living away from

17 Dubrava, I just want to be clear, you told us you went back from time to

18 time. Did you ever meet with Ramush Haradinaj when you returned home for

19 your weekend or week-long visits? Did you meet him?

20 A. I don't remember. I wouldn't just go back for the weekend and

21 for a week. Sometimes I would spend my entire annual leave in the area,

22 as long as a month sometimes. So the answer is maybe I did, maybe I

23 didn't, but I can't remember.

24 Q. And, again, same question for the other brothers: Do you

25 remember meeting any of the others when you were at home during these

Page 2051

1 periods?

2 A. I can't remember.

3 Q. I want to ask you some questions about the 18th of April for a

4 moment. First of all, you told us, I think, that the first shot you

5 heard when you were at the house came from the direction of Dubrava. Is

6 that correct?

7 A. That's correct. That's what I heard. I thought the shot came

8 from Dubrava.

9 Q. So that would be the opposite side of your house from the house

10 where the Haradinaj compound is?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then you said you heard a shot coming from the Gllogjan side

13 of the house. Is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And could you -- could you really tell where specifically that

16 shot -- second shot had come from?

17 A. I don't think I could. The bullet came from the direction of

18 Ramush's house because that part faces the -- or rather, the Glodjane

19 road because we are very close to the road, both Ramush and I. I am just

20 next to the road, and Ramush is a little to the right.

21 Q. So just to be clear, is it your evidence that that second shot

22 came from the general direction of Gllogjan, but you can't be more

23 specific than that? Is that what you're saying?

24 A. No, I can't be specific. From Glodjane, yes, that much is true,

25 but I can't say exactly from which.

Page 2052

1 Q. You told us in your evidence about the period during which you

2 were being walked from your house towards Gllogjan village. And you

3 described a moment when you say that you saw Ramush Haradinaj along the

4 way. Do you remember giving that evidence this morning?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I just want to ask you one or two questions about that, if I can.

7 First of all, you've given various descriptions of that sighting in

8 different statements that you've made at different times, I think, and

9 you've been asked about them quite recently by the Prosecution in a

10 meeting that you had with them about your statement. Is that right?

11 A. [No audible response].

12 Q. And I think in the most recent meeting on the 23rd of March, you

13 were anxious to correct an error in your witness statement, because in

14 your witness statement originally you thought you'd said that you'd seen

15 Ramush Haradinaj standing outside your yard, but you wanted to correct

16 that to say that he was standing outside his yard, the yard of the

17 Haradinaj family compound. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you just give us a sense, when you say he was standing

20 outside his yard, can you just give us a sense, please, of how close to

21 the house he was, an estimate of the distance between Ramush Haradinaj

22 and his own house?

23 A. I'd be hard-put to be specific about the distance, but when I

24 amended that particular reference about the 23rd of March I'm telling you

25 about that road, I'm not sure how to explain this, the road leading to

Page 2053

1 the house, it's actually closer to his yard than the road itself. The

2 distance is just over a half. I'm not sure what the distance is.

3 Q. Sorry, don't worry about the length of the road for a moment. We

4 can come to that in a moment, and I've understood what you're saying.

5 There's a roadway that leads from the main road down to the Haradinaj

6 family compound. That's what you're describing, isn't it?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. I just want you to help us, please. The man that you say that

9 you saw, was he standing close to the Haradinaj family compound?

10 A. Who exactly do you have in mind, Ramush or -- I said there was

11 another man, possibly two persons, standing next to him. So do you mean

12 those two, or do you mean Ramush?

13 Q. Well, all three of the people you've described if they were

14 standing together. Were they standing close to the Haradinaj house?

15 A. I told you a while ago, they were standing at just over half the

16 way there.

17 Q. That's what I wanted to be clear about. So just over halfway

18 along that road that runs from the main road to the Har --

19 A. That path --

20 Q. Yes?

21 A. That path.

22 Q. Yes?

23 A. That path.

24 Q. So just over halfway, do you mean closer to the Haradinaj house

25 or closer to the road?

Page 2054

1 A. Closer to the road.

2 Q. So nearly halfway, but closer to the road?

3 A. Closer to the road, yes.

4 Q. So I wonder if you could help us just for a moment?

5 MR. EMMERSON: Could we bring up, please, Exhibit D24.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I'm also looking at the clock --

7 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.

8 JUDGE ORIE: -- we need a break soon. I don't know how much time

9 it would take you to start with your next subject but --

10 MR. EMMERSON: I'm -- I think certainly provided the photograph

11 can be brought up reasonable quickly I can deal with this in a minute or

12 two, I think, if that suits --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

14 MR. EMMERSON: And can we please focus in on the roadway.

15 Q. And you see that just about halfway there's a bend in the road,

16 Mr. Stojanovic. Now, I think you've said that he was just over halfway

17 along and slightly closer to the road. Could you mark for us, please, on

18 the paragraph that position?

19 JUDGE ORIE: We need to give it a new number there.

20 Madam Registrar, the photo to be marked will be ...?

21 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit Number D27, marked for

22 identification, Your Honours.



25 Q. Can I just be clear, can you orientate yourself? Do you know

Page 2055

1 what we're looking at, Mr. Stojanovic, just before you mark it?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stojanovic has marked it already --

3 MR. EMMERSON: I see --

4 JUDGE ORIE: If you look at it --

5 MR. EMMERSON: All right, that's fine --

6 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please I think Mr. Emmerson's

7 question needs to be answered because --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's -- Mr. Stojanovic, you made a mark, was

9 that by mistake or was that the place where you wanted to mark where

10 these three people were standing?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to mark the spot where the

12 three persons were standing.

13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes --

14 JUDGE ORIE: And do you have any difficulties in orienting

15 yourself on this aerial photograph, or is it perfectly clear to you?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's difficult, it's difficult. I

17 find it difficult to work with this aerial photograph.


19 Q. Let me just see if I can help you, Mr. Stojanovic. There's one

20 potential confusion on it. If you look at the Haradinaj compound,

21 there's been building on that since you lived there. But the road that

22 you're looking at is the road that leads from the main road down to the

23 compound. And if we just pull down the picture, pull it out a little,

24 can you see at the bottom left-hand side of the photograph next to the

25 road --

Page 2056

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but it has to be done because otherwise the

2 witness can't see it.

3 Yes, Madam Usher, I am aware ...

4 [Trial Chamber and usher confer]

5 JUDGE ORIE: If we zoom out, Mr. Emmerson --


7 JUDGE ORIE: -- then we lose the marking, but perhaps that might

8 be not -- be better --

9 MR. EMMERSON: I'd like to save the marking, if possible.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Couldn't it be re-made once the witness has clearly

11 oriented himself?

12 So let's perhaps get rid of this one, have the original

13 photograph again, we keep that then for the same number. We first zoom

14 it out, ask the witness to orient himself, and then ask him to make the

15 marking again.

16 MR. EMMERSON: All right.

17 Q. Do you have the full picture on your screen, Mr. Stojanovic?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. If you look at the road that runs vertically along the left-hand

20 side of the photograph from top to bottom, that is the road that runs --

21 that is the road that runs from Dubrava towards Gllogjan --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: From top to bottom, it would be the other way

24 around.


Page 2057

1 Q. With Dubrava at the bottom and Gllogjan at the top, are you with

2 me?

3 A. This photograph leaves me in the dark --

4 Q. Well --

5 A. -- I can't find my way around these aerial photographs.

6 Q. Well, I'm going to help you, Mr. Stojanovic, so that you're

7 absolutely clear. All right.

8 Now, the road that runs along the left-hand side of that

9 photograph going vertically from top to bottom is a road that runs from

10 the top, the Gllogjan direction, down towards the bottom, towards

11 Dubrava. All right. The large building on the right-hand side is the

12 Haradinaj family compound. You can accept that from me?

13 JUDGE ORIE: As it looks today --


15 Q. As it looks today. And the building to the bottom left-hand

16 corner of the photograph, which you can just see on the right-hand side

17 of the road, is the location of your property?

18 A. Yes, yes, I see it.

19 Q. Now you've orientated yourself. The road that leads to the

20 Haradinaj compound is the road that you were looking at before that runs

21 from the corner down to a bend roughly halfway and then on to the

22 Haradinaj compound. And perhaps we can look at that again a little

23 larger.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Now, let me repeat my question. You gave evidence a few moments

Page 2058

1 ago that when you saw Ramush Haradinaj standing with two other men, they

2 were slightly more than halfway along that road, and you just marked the

3 position for us. Can you tell us, please -- or perhaps I can ask you to

4 do it again. Can you mark for us the position slightly beyond halfway

5 where you say they were?

6 A. [Marks].

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. Up here, I think that's where I marked it before.

9 Q. Yes. Thank you. Now, perhaps we can save it --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps in order to find it -- yes, but one second.

11 Could you make it a cross rather than a dot, because it's a very small

12 dot. If you could make that a cross --

13 THE WITNESS: [Marks].

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, like that. Thank you very much.

15 This will now be D27, Madam Registrar.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

18 Perhaps -- working with maps anyhow, I suggest, and we could make

19 it a Defence exhibit, to have U0143045 on the screen which is -- that

20 would then, since it has been produced -- we could make it a Chamber

21 exhibit, but, Mr. Emmerson, we would be quite glad, as well, if it would

22 be D28 for you. That gives a better orientation.


24 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that if it's in the village and if the

25 other witness was invited to identify the -- Smajl's house on the -- what

Page 2059

1 I think is D23, but then it should be on this photograph as well.

2 Can you orient yourself, Mr. Stojanovic? Do you see what this is?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it is Glodjane, but it's a

4 little fuzzy.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you think that you could find Smajl's house

6 on this photograph? And things might be different from what they were at

7 that time, but ...

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably so. There are new houses

9 as far as I can tell, so the shape, the outline, the layout is entirely

10 changed.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that there are new houses. But

12 are you able to find the place where Smajl's house was, from what you

13 remember?

14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't hear the witness.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If you can't find it, just tell us, then we'll just

16 move on. I see you're nodding no.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then the parties are invited -- I don't know whether

19 the house could be found on this picture, but to see whether there could

20 be any agreement so that the Chamber also finds out where it actually

21 happened, or at least at what place the witnesses described as far as

22 where it happened.

23 We will adjourn and resume at 1.00.

24 --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 1.05 p.m.

Page 2060

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

2 MR. EMMERSON: In answer to Your Honour's question, the house

3 does not appear on the photograph that Your Honour has drawn our

4 attention to.


6 MR. EMMERSON: We are endeavouring to have available a clear

7 enough aerial photograph which can be the subject of agreement with the

8 Prosecution.

9 JUDGE ORIE: We do not necessarily need a photograph, but at

10 least to know where approximately it's located on the map is fine as well

11 or a detailed map. Was it on the other photograph, because it covers

12 more or less the same area?

13 MR. EMMERSON: I think the answer to that is no. It's certainly

14 not -- it's not in the photograph which is in the spiral-bound volume,

15 which is I think the same photograph as the one that Your Honour --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there was a different photograph shown to the

17 witness from a different angle that same village of Glodjane but I didn't

18 see that there was more on that photograph than there is on this one --

19 MR. EMMERSON: I think not. I think, if I may say for Your

20 Honour's information and I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, the building

21 is -- it would be beneath --


23 MR. EMMERSON: -- the photograph, in other words behind the

24 position that the aerial photograph has been taken here from and,

25 therefore, off the screen, so further down the road that we see there.

Page 2061


2 MR. EMMERSON: But what we're aiming to do is produce something

3 which is easy to see and where it can be marked for Your Honours'

4 assistance.


6 Further on, I was informed that the videolink for -- is not

7 possible for next week. We granted yesterday - and I might come back to

8 that later, within the next half-hour - but technically it seems to be a

9 problem to have that videolink next week and it could only be the week

10 after that. It is just for your information, Mr. Di Fazio, so please get

11 in touch with the registry.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, that might also have wider implications for

13 the sequence of witnesses for next week.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Maybe. Could be, yes.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Do you want to be addressed about that today? I

16 know Mr. Emmerson is interested in the issue.

17 JUDGE ORIE: No, as a matter of fact full communication between

18 the parties is of utmost importance and spending time in court is to be

19 avoided.

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, of course, and --

21 JUDGE ORIE: And these are the kind of practical matters, I would

22 say, which are -- we can deal with by just sending copies to the extent

23 acceptable to the Chamber of practical communication between the parties.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Well, Mr. Re will surely contact

25 Mr. Emmerson today to discuss that matter. Thank you.

Page 2062

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.

2 Then, Mr. Emmerson, I suggest that what I -- what I suggested to

3 be D28 should not be an exhibit at all. We have -- at this moment, we

4 have the number that is U0143045, we have that on the record and that

5 identifies the photograph shown to the witness. The witness has not been

6 able to orient himself on the photograph, so let's get rid of that, and

7 it saves me the problem of whether we should make it a Chamber exhibit or

8 a Defence or a Prosecution exhibit.

9 Please proceed.


11 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, forget for a moment Smajl Haradinaj's house --

12 MR. EMMERSON: Just one moment.

13 Q. Going back to the moment when you were walking along the road

14 towards Gllogjan on the 18th of April and you have described seeing

15 Ramush Haradinaj, you say he was with two other people. Are you able to

16 describe those two other people?

17 A. No, I don't remember.

18 Q. In the evidence that you gave a little earlier today --

19 MR. EMMERSON: And for Your Honours' note, it's page 44, line 24.

20 Q. -- you said that at the time you saw Ramush Haradinaj on the side

21 road, there were other neighbours in the area, and you said: "But they

22 kept telling us not to look left and right but just to keep our heads

23 down."

24 Now, I just want to be clear, Mr. Stojanovic, were they telling

25 you not to look left and right and just to keep your heads down as you

Page 2063

1 were walking along the road?

2 A. Yes, on that macadam road.

3 Q. And is that why you weren't able to see the other two men who

4 were standing with Ramush Haradinaj?

5 A. As far as I can remember, one was with his back to me and I

6 probably didn't even know the other one.

7 Q. The one with his back to you, was he nearer to you than Ramush

8 Haradinaj?

9 A. No, not really with his back to me but with his side. He was

10 turned sideways.

11 Q. Were there other people on that side road at all, apart from the

12 three of them?

13 A. There was a check-point there, a trench that was considered to be

14 a check-point, and on the left-hand side there were some soldiers coming

15 out of Xhavit's house. I don't recall his last name.

16 Q. Can we try to keep this simple and separate? Xhavit's house,

17 you've told us, is on the opposite side of the main road from the

18 Haradinaj compound, isn't it?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. I'm not asking you at the moment about people who may have been

21 coming out of Xhavit's house. On the road that leads from the main road

22 down to the Haradinaj compound, is that where you saw soldiers at a

23 check-point?

24 A. You mean the two or some other soldiers?

25 Q. Let me ask you the question again and avoid any possible

Page 2064

1 confusion. You've told us that the man you thought was Ramush Haradinaj

2 was standing with two soldiers, and you've shown us on the photograph

3 where that was. Leave them aside for a moment. Were there other people

4 on the road, apart from those three?

5 A. Yes, there were quite a few soldiers.

6 Q. And were they nearer to the main road than Ramush Haradinaj or

7 between Ramush Haradinaj and the Haradinaj compound?

8 A. Those soldiers were mostly on the main road.

9 Q. Were any of them on the side road that leads to the Haradinaj

10 compound?

11 A. I don't think so, but I can't remember all that well.

12 Q. You told us that there was a check-point or a trench. Was that

13 on the side road?

14 A. It was on the corner. There was a ditch there, so that was at

15 the intersection of the main road and the side road, a trench had been

16 dug there.

17 Q. And were there soldiers or people, let's put it that way, were

18 there people in the intersection there, standing in the intersection that

19 you have described where the trench was?

20 A. Well, I said that there were quite a few soldiers near the

21 trench, maybe 5 or 10 metres away from the trench, five or ten soldiers.

22 Q. Just pause there then, please.

23 MR. EMMERSON: Can we have a look, please, again at a fresh D24.

24 If we could just zoom in, please, on the area of the junction between the

25 two roads.

Page 2065

1 Q. Now, Mr. Stojanovic, looking at the junction there, could you

2 take a pen, please, and mark for us with a line, a straight line, where

3 the trench that you're describing was?

4 A. [Marks].

5 Q. Just on one side of the road like that or on both sides?

6 A. I remember that it was on this side. I don't remember it being

7 on the other side because Xhavit's house was here. I don't remember

8 Xhavit's last name. I know him quite well -- in fact, he was a

9 schoolmate. So they were coming out of this house, and this is where the

10 trench was.

11 Q. Forgive me because my question was ambiguous. When I said "just

12 the one side," if you see where the side road joins the main road, you've

13 drawn for us a red line on the opening which is at the bottom of -- where

14 the side road joins the main road. Was there a trench on the opposite

15 side as well? Don't touch the screen with your pen unless you're making

16 an intentional marking.

17 A. No, no. I -- I'm not clear. What do you mean from the opposite

18 side? I was coming there from Dubrava with my brother Dragoslav.

19 Q. Let me explain the question. You're walking from the bottom of

20 this picture along the road towards the top, and you've marked for us --

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And you've marked for us a red line to show the trench at the

23 first corner you come to on the right-hand side. If you were to walk

24 further up the road towards Gllogjan, the other side of that opening is

25 another corner on the road leading down to the Haradinaj compound. Was

Page 2066

1 there a trench there as well or not?

2 A. No, and not as far as I can recall.

3 Q. Now, you've told us that you -- that there were a significant

4 number of men some, I think, 5 or 10 metres from the trench. Can you

5 just show us where the men --

6 A. To the left, on the left-hand side. This is what I meant when I

7 said that there had been a large number of them there because they had

8 all come out of the house, and I was able to recognise Zeqir Nimonaj

9 there.

10 Q. So could you just mark for us just with a number 1 where those

11 men were standing.

12 A. [Marks].

13 Q. Thank you. Were there any other people on the side road, apart

14 from Ramush Haradinaj and the two people he was speaking to?

15 A. As I already said, I don't remember but I don't think so.

16 Q. Can you show us, please, where you were when you looked over and

17 saw him? Can you mark for us, please, with an X on this map and perhaps

18 it might be a good idea to do it in different colour.

19 A. Somewhere here in the middle of the road.

20 Q. That's fine. That's fine. It's already done.

21 So the X that you've marked on that map shows where you were

22 standing at the time, does it?

23 A. Yes, but let me note here that this road appears much shorter in

24 real life than it does here on this aerial photograph.

25 Q. Well, we can measure the exact distance in due course with the

Page 2067

1 markings that you've given us, Mr. Stojanovic.

2 MR. EMMERSON: Can that please be marked for identification?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be ... ?

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be then Exhibit Number

5 D28, marked for identification.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


8 Q. I want to ask you just briefly, before this day when the last

9 time was that you had seen or spoken to Ramush Haradinaj? And before you

10 answer that question, I'm going to suggest to you that Ramush Haradinaj

11 was not in Kosovo between 1991, was not living there between 1991, and

12 the end of February 1998. So he wasn't living in the house there during

13 that period.

14 A. I don't recall when it was that I saw him last.

15 Q. Can I come then, please --

16 MR. EMMERSON: And we can remove that exhibit now. It's finished

17 with for the time being.

18 Q. Can I come then, please, to a later stage of the events that

19 you've described when you were taken out of Smajl Haradinaj's house to go

20 back to your house and to fix the car that was broken. You've told us in

21 your evidence that when you came out of the house, you saw

22 Hilmi Haradinaj in the yard of Smajl Haradinaj's house. Is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And was that the first time that you'd seen Hilmi Haradinaj that

25 day?

Page 2068

1 A. No.

2 Q. When, on the 18th of April, did you first see Hilmi Haradinaj?

3 A. When he brought some juice for Dragoslav.

4 Q. Was that before you were taken out into the yard to go and fix

5 the car?

6 A. I think so, but I can't remember exactly. It was in the

7 corridor, yes.

8 Q. You've told us about an occasion when Nasim Haradinaj came and

9 told you that you were going to be released. I want to ask you whether

10 that occasion coincided with when you first saw Hilmi Haradinaj; in other

11 words, did you see Hilmi Haradinaj before or after or roughly at the same

12 time as you were told that you were going to be released?

13 A. I don't remember. I think it was after Nasim Haradinaj, but I

14 don't remember exactly.

15 Q. When you saw him - that is Hilmi Haradinaj - outside in the yard,

16 were there other people in the yard apart from him and the man you

17 identified as Ramush Haradinaj? Were there other people in the yard

18 apart from them?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. How many?

21 A. I couldn't give you the figure because they were standing there

22 in groups, small groups, and Smajl's courtyard is quite large. So I

23 couldn't give you the approximate figure.

24 Q. Again, can you give us a sense of how many people there were?

25 A. No, no, I really couldn't.

Page 2069

1 Q. And where was Hilmi when you saw him in the yard?

2 A. Opposite a gate. I don't know how far from the gate he was,

3 though. Not more than 10 or 15 metres, that would be my estimate. I'm

4 talking about the main entrance, the main gate.

5 Q. And were you taken by Nasim out of the building and directly out

6 of the yard, or were you held in the yard for a period of time?

7 A. We were standing there for a short while in the courtyard.

8 Q. Again, can you help us at all with any sense of how long that

9 would have been?

10 A. No, no, I can't. I really can't, but we were standing there for

11 a short while.

12 Q. Do you know what Shkelzen Haradinaj looked like at this point in

13 time?

14 A. No. Shkelzen, no.

15 Q. Or one of the older Haradinaj brothers. At this point in time,

16 you didn't know what his appearance would look like?

17 A. No, as I've already said.

18 Q. I wonder, if I may, to ask you some questions about, first of

19 all, a newspaper interview that you gave. And we have -- we have --

20 MR. EMMERSON: For this purpose, it would be helpful to have on

21 the screen D25 in the English translation.

22 Now, if I can please hand the witness a hard copy of the original

23 because it's much easier to read in hard copy than on the screen.

24 Q. Mr. Haradinaj [sic], that is a copy of a newspaper article

25 published on the 24th of April, 1998, in a Serbian magazine called

Page 2070

1 "Illustrojana Politika," and it contains a lengthy direct interview with

2 you in which you are quoted. And I've marked for you with a highlighter

3 a heading which corresponds in our translation with the words: "We

4 weren't armed ...?"

5 MR. EMMERSON: So for Your Honours, that's page 3 of the

6 translation. If we could bring that up on the screen.

7 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, do you remember giving an interview to a

8 newspaper or magazine shortly after this incident took place?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And do you recognise in the passage that's set out there the

11 words that you used?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I'm very happy to give you an opportunity, if you want to read

14 the whole article. We've obviously had a chance to look at it in

15 translation. There's just a couple of questions I want to put to you

16 about it, if I may. First of all, there's no mention in this interview

17 of you having seen Ramush Haradinaj on that day. Do you know why that

18 is?

19 A. Yes. Nobody asked me at the time about him.

20 Q. I see, but there is quite a detailed description, Mr. Stojanovic,

21 of what happened in your house. And you can see that, I think, just --

22 A. There isn't that much detail provided, just the names of the

23 people who beat me. I'm not talking about the names I saw; I'm talking

24 about the names that beat me.

25 Q. Well, that's -- that was going to be my next question because if

Page 2071

1 you find the heading that says: "They took off their masks" --

2 MR. EMMERSON: That's our page 4.

3 Q. -- you describe what happened in the house. I just wanted to

4 check one matter with you, because you've given evidence to us that

5 Daut Haradinaj, a man you recognised, was amongst those who burst into

6 the house and took part in the beating. But I'm just going to put it to

7 you, there's no mention in this newspaper article of Daut Haradinaj.

8 A. That may as well be the case. I have no idea what the

9 journalists wrote. I am certain that Daut was among them. Journalists

10 can include or omit whatever they like. It's not my place to judge that.

11 Q. Can you find that heading again, please: "They blindfolded

12 us ..."

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In the English translation, the words immediately beneath that

15 read as follows, and this is you describing what happened at Smajl

16 Haradinaj's house: "At about 4.00 in the afternoon, the neighbour whose

17 house it was, Nasim, arrived and told us that they were going to release

18 us."

19 And then this: "He was probably their boss."

20 A. Yes. At that moment, and in most other cases, that was how they

21 addressed or greeted all of the Haradinajs, not just Nasim. What's more,

22 even the young Haradinaj who questioned us was addressed the same way.

23 Q. I was going to come back to him in a moment or two. Does that

24 accurately record what you said, that Nasim was probably their boss?

25 A. That was what I assumed at the time, but I wasn't certain that he

Page 2072

1 was the boss. Whenever he came by, the other soldiers always saluted

2 him. All the soldiers who were wearing the black berets were saluted, so

3 that was what caused me to get that particular impression.

4 Q. Does that mean you -- if that's an accurate record, you don't

5 suggest that he was one of a number of people who were in charge; if

6 that's an accurate record of what you said, you seem to be suggesting

7 that he was the person, as far as you could see, who was in charge?

8 A. No, no, that's not what I'm saying.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Could we look then, please, at Rule 65 ter --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm saying is he was one of

11 the men in charge, one of those in charge.

12 MR. EMMERSON: Could we look now, please, at Rule 65 ter

13 number 1146.

14 And for Your Honours' assistance, this is another one of those

15 reports that is already part of Exhibit P5 but is individually

16 identified.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps we then do the same as we did

18 before --

19 MR. EMMERSON: A new --

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- and give that -- give that an additional number.

21 Madam Registrar, that would be ...?

22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D29,

23 marked for identification.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


Page 2073

1 Q. Now, Mr. Stojanovic, I'm going to have to read this document or

2 passages of it to you, because it's not available in Serbian. This is a

3 report that was filed by a woman called Marijana Andjelkovic, who worked

4 for an organisation called the Humanitarian Law Centre. And as we can

5 see on our document, on the second page --

6 MR. EMMERSON: Perhaps we could call that up and the second

7 paragraph.

8 Q. -- this report is based on an interview that Marijana Andjelkovic

9 conducted with you on the 25th of April at a cafe in Decane on the road

10 to the Decani monastery. So this is an interview that took place the day

11 after the article we've just looked at was published.

12 MR. EMMERSON: Does Your Honour have the passage?

13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Actually, the same day. Wasn't it the 25th?

14 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour's quite right.


16 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour's quite right.

17 Q. So this was an interview that took place on the same day that

18 that magazine article was published. And I just want to ask you one or

19 two questions about this because to be absolutely fair to you, I need to

20 take you through one or two passages slowly. You describe - and I'm now

21 looking at the second paragraph under the heading: "Statement by

22 Mijat Stojanovic" - you're recorded here as describing the arrival of

23 yourselves, that is your brother and yourself, at the house; the start of

24 the shooting; the fact that it went on for 40 minutes; the fact that you

25 weren't armed; the fact that they came into the yard and you decided to

Page 2074

1 give yourselves up; the fact that your brother Dragoslav opened the door;

2 and that 10 or 15 soldiers barged in.

3 And then it goes on as follows: "They hit Dragoslav with a

4 rifle-butt and kicked him. He fell down. They ordered Veselin and me to

5 get down on the floor beside Dragoslav. They beat us, too. When Nasim

6 Haradinaj came in the beating stopped for a moment. He said to them not

7 to beat us, but they went on anyway."

8 And then it goes on to describe you being thrown out in the yard

9 and taken to the headquarters. So in this interview, also as recorded,

10 you made no mention of Daut Haradinaj being present in the house, but you

11 did mention Nasim Haradinaj being present in the house. Can you help us

12 with that at all?

13 A. First and foremost, I've never even heard of this lady. I can

14 say it categorically that I never gave any kind of interview to her. I

15 gave three interviews to the lady from the Humanitarian Rights Fund, but

16 not to this one. I am prepared to confront her any time.

17 Q. Well, Mr. Stojanovic, I don't want to put you in -- at a

18 disadvantage. It may be that you're confusing names, but the lady who

19 took your statement and made notes of it has given evidence in this

20 court. Perhaps you didn't recall her name, but from the Humanitarian

21 Rights Foundation, as you call it, Humanitarian Law Centre I think is its

22 proper name, the lady from that organisation who interviewed you has

23 given evidence before this court with her notebook about the interview

24 with you from which this report is drawn. So I don't want to put you in

25 a difficult position here. You did give an interview, as you've just

Page 2075

1 told us, to a lady from what you call the Humanitarian Rights Foundation,

2 didn't you?

3 A. What I'm saying is only the extent of my memory. I don't think I

4 ever spoke to this lady.

5 Q. Well --

6 A. I can't entirely rule out the possibility that I did, but not as

7 far as I remember. There was a single interview that occurred in a cafe,

8 and this was for a TV station from Slovakia, possibly from the Czech

9 Republic, that country. It was in a cafe, that's where I gave it, to the

10 extent that I now remember.

11 Q. Mr. Stojanovic, don't worry about the name of the person. You've

12 told us just a few moments ago you did give interviews to a lady from the

13 Humanitarian Rights Foundation. Is that right?

14 A. A while ago I said I didn't, didn't I? That's not what I

15 remember saying a while ago. I think I said I didn't speak to her.

16 Q. You said a few moments ago, Mr. Stojanovic: "I gave three

17 interviews to the lady from the Humanitarian Rights Foundation but not

18 this one."

19 A. No. I said a total of three interviews about the incident. I

20 didn't say who I gave those to, and now I'm mentioning a different one.

21 The first one was in the "Illustrojana Politika" papers and the other one

22 was to those people from Slovakia, the Czech Republic, and the third

23 interview that I gave was for a TV station, an America one, I'm not sure,

24 at the Decani monastery.

25 Q. All right, let me be absolutely clear with you on this, Mr.

Page 2076

1 Stojanovic. Are you saying that you did not give an interview to a lady

2 from a human rights organisation or that you don't know one way or the

3 other?

4 A. Not to the extent that I remember.

5 Q. All right. Well, then let me ask you some questions on that

6 understanding between us. The document that we're looking at makes a

7 number of references to Nasim Haradinaj. It describes him as turning up

8 at the time when you were inside your house. It describes him being

9 present when you were first taken to Smajl Haradinaj's house. It

10 describes him coming back in the afternoon and telling you that you were

11 going to be let go. It describes him accompanying you back to your house

12 to check your Lada, and it describes him telling you that they would

13 drive you to Babaloc and he would come along to guarantee your safety.

14 Now, in summary - and I'll take it in summary - each time you refer to

15 Nasim -- I'm sorry, each time Nasim Haradinaj is referred to in this

16 document, he is referred to as telling the other people present not to

17 hit you, not to hurt you?

18 Now, first of all, do you remember Nasim Haradinaj being present

19 in the house when you were first assaulted there?

20 A. He came after a while, after a brief while. Difficult to say,

21 but I think after about 15 or 20 minutes Nasim came by.

22 Q. And was he telling the other people not to beat you?

23 A. He was telling the others, but he was also winking an eye at them

24 outside in the yard, letting them know that they could go on with the

25 beating.

Page 2077

1 Q. Did --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson -- I'm looking at the clock.


4 JUDGE ORIE: I need two or three minutes as well, so therefore

5 usually I ask for a suitable moment, but I would like to invite you to

6 stop.

7 Mr. Stojanovic --

8 Mr. Emmerson, could you give us an indication how much time you

9 would still need tomorrow?

10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I would have thought certainly no longer than

11 half an hour, probably less.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then other counsel.

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: At present I don't expect that I will be

14 examining this witness, Your Honours.


16 Mr. Harvey.

17 MR. HARVEY: I shall not be examining this witness.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, any idea?

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Four to five minutes in re-examination, if that --

20 as things stand at the moment.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course.

22 Mr. Stojanovic, we would like to see you back tomorrow morning,

23 and I instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony you have

24 given until now and you are still about to give. We hope that we can

25 conclude your testimony tomorrow morning.

Page 2078

1 Madam Usher, could you escort Mr. Stojanovic out of the

2 courtroom.

3 I would like to deliver a decision of the Chamber on the

4 videolink.

5 [The witness stands down]

6 JUDGE ORIE: It is a decision regarding the Prosecution's partly

7 confidential motion of the 23rd of March, 2007, for testimony to be heard

8 via video-conference link. The Defence has not opposed the motion as

9 such but has urged further to explore the possibility to taking over

10 obligations by that witness -- of that witness by professionals. The

11 Chamber reiterates its approach to video-conferences, as set out in its

12 written decision filed on the 21st of March.

13 The test is as follows: The witness must be unable or have good

14 reasons to be unwilling to come to the Tribunal; B, if the testimony of

15 the witness must be sufficiently important to make it unfair to the

16 requesting party to proceed without it; and C, the accused must not be

17 prejudiced in the exercise of his or her right to confront the witness.

18 In the present case, the Chamber has carefully reviewed the

19 confidential materials submitted by the Prosecution with its motion and

20 is satisfied that the witness in question has good reasons to be

21 unwilling to come to The Hague. The witness has ongoing obligations to

22 another person that cannot easily be relieved to allow the witness to

23 travel to The Hague.

24 The Chamber finds that upon striking a fair balance the

25 advantages of hearing that witness -- that testimony be given in The

Page 2079

1 Hague and the additional burden to have the obligation of this witness to

2 be taken over by professionals results in our finding that the witness

3 can give his evidence through videolink. This, therefore, as the parties

4 know already because it was informally communicated to them, the Chamber

5 hereby grants the motion, and this concludes the ruling of the Chamber on

6 this matter.

7 Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, the Defence, and I think also the

9 Prosecution, owe Your Honours a pleading today; that is to say, a

10 response in respect to the recording of video -- of proofing sessions.


12 MR. EMMERSON: We are significantly advanced with it. We would

13 hope to be able to file it today, but since we are trying to avoid more

14 than one set of Defence filings and since there is really quite a lot of

15 material in the Prosecution's main filing, it is conceivable that we

16 might spill over until tomorrow.

17 Would Your Honours grant us that grace, if it's necessary?


19 Mr. Di Fazio, a couple of hours?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: That's not a problem.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then it's granted, if necessary.

22 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Then I remind the parties that we said the next

24 witness who is at this moment present in The Hague ...

25 [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 2080

1 JUDGE ORIE: From what I understand, the examination of the

2 present witness should be easily concluded within the first session

3 tomorrow morning. The next witness is scheduled for one hour and a half,

4 so therefore if we would be really efficient, we might be able to

5 conclude the testimony of the next witness, unless, Mr. Emmerson, I'm not

6 fully aware whether you needed more time for the next witness. If not --

7 MR. EMMERSON: Unless there's something that I'm not expecting in

8 his testimony --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay --

10 MR. EMMERSON: -- I would have thought it was possible we may

11 well conclude him tomorrow.

12 JUDGE ORIE: That means that if we are efficient, we could try to

13 conclude this witness tomorrow, which would prevent us from sitting on

14 Thursday. So therefore, if the parties would really focus very much on

15 what is most important and not be repetitious in any way in their

16 questioning, then we might be able to --

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, Mr. --

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- conclude tomorrow.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Kearney is probably best placed to advise you

20 about that. I think it's going to be brief, but he can tell you more.

21 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I will do my best to get through the

22 material as quickly as possible.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Di Fazio, you are aware that if you are

24 taking more time, Defence might take more time as well. We might end up

25 having to sit also on Thursday. So it's finally up to you.

Page 2081

1 We adjourn and -- until tomorrow, the 28th of March, 9.00,

2 Courtroom II.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,

4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 28th day of

5 March, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.