1 Monday, 2 April 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 First thing I'd like to do, should not take too much time, is to
11 deal with the exhibits that were produced through the last witness, that
12 would be D70 -- 27 up to and including D30.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I asked Madam Registrar to -- to send the list.
15 These are just the exhibits I would like to deal with at this moment,
16 only these last four.
17 Is there any objection?
18 MR. RE: Well, I was just handed the list as I walked in.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. RE: Could I have until next session to have a look at it?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll hear from you then at -- just after the
22 next break.
23 I'd like to go into private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 2189-2208 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
9 MR. RE: I just wish to raise the issue of the provision of the
10 consolidated witness statement of the witness, which was completed last
11 night. We sent a copy to the Defence last night when it was completed,
12 the signed -- I have the signed version. It's been e-mailed to the
13 Defence, and I apologise, I thought it had been e-mailed earlier, but it
14 wasn't. I've also asked whether the Defence object to the Trial Chamber
15 being provided with copies. I have copies here for everyone in the
16 court. If the Defence want their signed hard copy, they can get it right
17 away, and if they consent it to going to the Trial Chamber, we can also
18 provide it to you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. The Trial Chamber will see whether there's
20 consent and then they'll receive it.
21 We'll then now have a break, and we'll resume at 25 minutes past
23 --- Recess taken at 3.01 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 3.28 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We are in open session. The protective measures
1 sought for the next witness to be called by the Prosecution are granted.
2 The reasons, to be given orally, will come at a later stage. The --
3 Mr. Re, the pseudonym would be 23 or would it be another number?
4 MR. RE: 60.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes, 23 is the number -- so witness 60. Then
6 we'll -- yes, Mr. Emmerson.
7 MR. EMMERSON: May I mention one matter very briefly in private
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we turn into private session.
10 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE ORIE: May I remind the parties to switch off their
5 microphones when the witness is answering any questions.
6 Good afternoon, Witness, Witness 60, because that's how I'm going
7 to call you. Since the Chamber has decided that you'll testify under a
8 pseudonym and with face and voice distortion, that does mean that no one
9 sees your face outside of this courtroom, no one can hear your own voice,
10 and that we'll address you as "Witness 60."
11 Witness 60, before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and
12 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you'll speak the
13 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Madam Usher now hands
14 out the text of this solemn declaration to you. Make I invite you to
15 make that solemn declaration.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
17 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Witness 60. You'll first be
19 examined by - you, Mr. Re - by Mr. Re, counsel for the Prosecution.
20 Mr. Re, please proceed.
21 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/60
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examination by Mr. Re:
24 Q. Good afternoon, Witness 60. Can you hear me clearly?
25 A. Good afternoon to everyone. Yes, I can hear you clearly.
1 Q. First thing I want to show you is a -- what's called a pseudonym
2 sheet which has your name and details on it.
3 MR. RE: Could we go into -- do we have to go into closed session
4 to display that?
5 JUDGE ORIE: No, usually the pseudonym sheet is shown to the
6 witness, and then the usual question is whether what is written on this
7 piece of paper, whether that is the name and the date of birth of the
8 witness; and he's then invited to either confirm or deny.
9 MR. RE: I'm just asking whether we need to go into closed
10 session because of the display on the screen? No. Okay.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No, there will be no display, it will just be shown
12 to the --
13 MR. RE: Okay.
14 Q. Look on the screen. The Exhibit will be called 1216 --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P37,
17 marked for identification.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and under seal.
19 Does it already appear in front of you? Let me ... one second,
20 there it comes --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't see anything.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Do you now see it?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 MR. RE:
25 Q. Are those details correct? Is that you?
1 A. Yes, but the year of birth is not the same.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then we turn into private session.
3 [Private session]
11 Page 2215 redacted. Private session.
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
13 MR. RE:
14 Q. Witness 60, where were you and your family living in January,
15 February, March, April 1998?
16 A. We were living in the village of Dasinovac.
17 Q. What is the ethnicity of your family?
18 A. Serbian.
19 Q. How many Serbian families or households were in Dasinovac as of
20 the beginning of April -- beginning of 1998?
21 A. About ten -- or rather, seven or eight Serbian houses.
22 Q. How many Albanian households or families were in that same area
23 as of January 1998?
24 A. There were many of them, possibly between 200 and 300 Albanian
1 Q. What sort of property did your family own in Dasinovac in 1998?
2 Was it a house? A farm? Or something else?
3 A. We had around eight hectares of arable land. We had
4 outbuildings, we had a house, stables. We kept cattle, pigs, bees. We
5 grew wheat, potatoes, and things like that. We had a regular farming
6 life in our village.
7 Q. Approximately how many animals did you own?
8 A. We had 30, 40 sheep; one cow; one horse; 30 chickens; five pigs;
9 we had about 20 beehives.
10 Q. Did you have an orchard?
11 A. We had a large orchard with lots of plum trees, apple trees,
13 Q. What about agricultural machinery, did you have any of that?
14 A. We had some old machines, but we didn't use them much. We did
15 the land manually more or less, and we use our horse for that kind of
17 Q. How long has the property been in your family?
18 A. As far as I know, sometime after the Second World War my
19 grandfather moved to that land. I apologise, after the First World War
20 or probably 1914, 1918.
21 Q. I want to ask you about things that were happening in Dasinovac
22 and the area in late 1997 and early 1998. You were -- were you aware of
23 an organisation called the Kosovo Liberation Army, the UCK?
24 A. Yes. We heard about it, and we knew that they were in the area
25 where we were living.
1 Q. What did you hear about it, and when did you first hear about it?
2 A. We heard first -- for the first time about them sometime between
3 1997/1998 when they used to stop people. There was lots of talk about
4 that. They also started attacking the police station in Rznic, which is
5 not very far from my home, and, therefore, we knew that the KLA was
6 operating in the area.
7 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to rise, but can I remind Mr. Re if he's
8 eliciting evidence of this kind to identify the source of the
9 information, please.
10 MR. RE: That was actually my next follow-up question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll hear the question. Please proceed.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. I want you to be a little more specific about the sources of your
14 information. You said you heard about them, and they started to -- when
15 they used to stop people. What was it you heard and who did you hear it
17 A. In the spring of 1978 or 1979, they stopped Dragoslav Stojanovic,
18 they searched him, mistreated him, and then released him. I heard it
19 from him personally, and that is how I knew he had been stopped.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can we check the year?
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. You just said -- or the translation says "1978 or 1979." Is that
23 what you said?
24 A. No, 1977. I'm sorry, between 1977 and 1978.
25 Q. You mean 1997 and 1998?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Ten years instead of 30 years ago. Is that correct?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that was about ten years ago.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. Apart from stopping Dragoslav Stojanovic, did you hear of the KLA
8 stopping other people?
9 A. No, as far as I can remember.
10 Q. Did you see, yourself, the KLA stopping anybody before April
12 A. No, I didn't see anyone.
13 Q. What do you know about the KLA attacking the Rznic police
14 station, like when was it? Did you see it yourself or did you hear about
15 it; if so, who did you hear it from and what did you hear?
16 A. I heard it in the spring of 1998, people were talking about it,
17 and it was on television and in the press as well. It was on TV.
18 Q. What was your knowledge, January, February, March 1998, about the
19 presence or otherwise of the KLA in the area around Dasinovac?
20 A. Well, people were saying that they were over in Glodjane and that
21 their HQ was there, too. In addition to those attacks on the police,
22 they also -- one stopped Dragoslav, as I have mentioned, but I didn't
23 personally encounter them or see them at all.
24 Q. What were people saying about them being over there in Gllogjan
25 and the headquarters being there? Try and be as - I know it's been a
1 long time - but as precise as you can.
2 A. Well, in March, people from my village and the surrounding
3 villages started leaving the area for fear of the KLA. People were
4 scared. There were cars driving through the villages at night, and the
5 police had stopped coming to our villages by this time.
6 Q. How did you know they were leaving for fear of the KLA? What's
7 your information about that?
8 A. There was fear. They were even trying to talk us into leaving,
9 but my father was ill at the time; on the 8th of April, he eventually
10 died. And that's why we refused to leave. We were too busy dealing with
11 my father's illness. We ignored all of the stories that were
12 circulating. We got on well with our own neighbours in our own village.
13 Q. You said there was fear. I want you to describe to the Trial
14 Chamber -- tell the Trial Chamber what the fear was. What was the --
15 what was the source of the fear? Why were people experiencing fear and
16 what was giving them fear?
17 A. They were scared by the presence of the KLA in the area. There
18 had been frequent attacks on the police station. People felt fear. I'm
19 not sure how to explain. We were scared, too, despite which we stayed on
20 in the village for quite some time.
21 Q. What were they scared of?
22 MR. EMMERSON: This is about the third time that Mr. Re has asked
23 for opinion evidence from this witness without laying a foundation for
24 it. I've tried to hesitate but it's not, with respect, appropriate
25 without laying a foundation as to what the source of the information was
1 to be seeking to elicit opinion evidence.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, it's true what Mr. Emmerson says. And I
3 left it for a moment in order to find out whether your next question
4 would resolve the matter, but it did not yet.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. Which people are you talking about, the ones you say experienced
9 A. At the time, there had been an attack on the houses in the
10 village of Ratis and the people were saying that the KLA from Glodjane
11 had done that. A grenade was thrown in Malesa Culafic's [Realtime
12 transcript read in error "Malis Suvakic's"] house was targeted. This
13 house is near the elementary school near the centre of that village.
14 Q. Whose houses were attacked? How do you --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, if you know first, try to find out the
16 source of knowledge, then at least we know what we are talking about.
17 How did you learn about this attack on Malesa Culafic's house?
18 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I wonder if we might concentrate on the
19 name because that's not the name as it appears on the transcript that I
20 heard through the headphones, and it is a name that we're already
21 familiar with.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Mr. Re.
24 MR. RE: I will clarify, but I --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you clarify that and seek an answer to that
1 question; also to the question where he said, they tried to talk us out
2 or -- or I don't know what was the exact wording -- they were even trying
3 to talk us into leaving. We do not know who tried to do so. If you
4 would resolve the matter, as well, then please proceed.
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. Witness D [sic], whose house was attacked in Ratis? Just the
8 A. Malesa Culafic's house.
9 Q. How did you find out about that? Who told you or did you see it?
10 A. First the neighbours came to our place and told us about it, and
11 then afterwards I went there myself. I went to that house, but that
12 family left the village soon after.
13 Q. Were they a Serb family? An Albanian family? Or what?
14 A. They were a Serb family.
15 Q. Were you told who had attacked the house with a grenade?
16 A. The only thing that was said was that someone had attacked the
17 house. There was nothing more specific. Newspapers said there had been
18 a terror attack against that house, and that was that.
19 Q. A moment ago you said a grenade was thrown at the house. Where
20 did you get that information from?
21 A. I heard that from Malesa Culafic's wife. She said that, first a
22 grenade had been thrown behind the house, and then a mortar was used to
23 target the house. It was by pure coincidence, she claimed, that she had
25 Q. Page 31 of the transcript, today you said: "Well, in March
1 people from my village and the surrounding villages started leaving the
2 area for fear of the KLA. People were scared."
3 I just want to take you back to that. Which people left the
4 villages and how do you know that they left the villages?
5 A. Serbs were leaving the village. I know that those were Serbs
6 because the first family to leave was from Ratis, the Culafic family; the
7 next to leave were the Stijovics; and they were followed by all the other
8 Serbs in the village. They left that village and all the surrounding
9 villages, I believe.
10 Q. And at page 31, a bit further down, you said: "There was fear.
11 They were even trying to talk us into leaving."
12 My question was: "How did you know they were leaving for fear of
13 the KLA?" And you said: "There was fear. They were even trying to talk
14 us into leaving but my father was ill at the time."
15 Now, who was trying to talk you into leaving and what did the
16 people who were trying to talk you into leaving do?
17 A. They were trying to convince us -- the Serbs were, to leave.
18 They were scared. They were saying that it wasn't safe to stay. After
19 the attack on the Culafic house, there was an attack of Slobo Prascevic,
20 a former police officer, and Dimitrije Radovic. He left afterwards. So
21 did Pavle Djukic. Those people were trying to convince us that it was no
22 longer safe to stay. They were saying, Look, all sorts of things are
23 happening here. It's a much better idea for you to leave and find a
24 safer, more peaceful place for you to stay.
25 Q. I just want to clarify. Who was trying to convince you to leave?
1 Who was telling you it was safer to go somewhere else?
2 A. Our neighbours, the Serbs from our village and the surrounding
4 Q. You just mentioned an attack on the Culafic house. I want you to
5 tell the Trial Chamber what you know about that and how you know about
6 it -- or put it the other way around: How you know about it and what
7 you know? Were you told? Did you see it?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, isn't it true the witness just told us that
9 he went first to the neighbours that he heard then; and that he then went
10 to the place himself and he told us about the grenade. I mean, there was
11 quite a lot of evidence which gives a rather clear source.
12 MR. RE: I apologise. Is that the -- if that's the -- the name
13 was different on the transcript. If that's the same one, I apologise --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it --
15 MR. EMMERSON: It is the same that's why I clarified the error on
16 the transcript, and the witness corrected it and gave us the name which
17 we're familiar with.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Re.
19 MR. RE:
20 Q. The next one you mentioned was an attack on Slobo Prascevic.
21 Same question: What do you know about that? Who told you? Did you see
22 it? Were you there? When was it?
23 A. I wasn't there. I didn't see it. All I know is the story told
24 me by Pavle Djukic. He said this had occurred quite near his house. He
25 said he had seen five or six armed people dressed in black. He claimed
1 to have recognised among those people Xhevdet Sadikaj. So there's little
2 that I actually know about this.
3 Q. What -- were you told when this had occurred?
4 MR. EMMERSON: Again, I'm sorry, but there's a stipulation in
5 relation to when this occurred.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, yes, there were two days, one day
7 difference, and then the parties agreed on what day the event which, from
8 what I remember, was an attack on the car took place. I think even by
9 heart, I think it was the 22nd or the 23rd of April if I'm not -- or
10 March or something --
11 MR. EMMERSON: 2nd March it is.
12 JUDGE ORIE: 2nd, okay. Then I'm -- I'll -- please proceed.
13 I'll give you the place.
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. Were you living in Dasinovac with your mother, father, brother,
16 and sister-in-law in January, February, March, up to the 8th of April --
17 up to the 10th of April when your father died in 1998?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When did your sister-in-law leave the house?
20 A. Sometime around the 17th or the 18th of April.
21 Q. Why did she leave the house?
22 A. She had some health problems, so my younger brother and I had to
23 take her to see a doctor in Pec.
24 Q. Did something happen on your way to Pec?
25 A. Yes, at Ljubarda, as we were passing through -- driving through
1 on our way to Pec, on our left there were about ten people standing in a
2 meadow. One of them produced a pistol, pulled out a gun, and fired a
3 shot in our direction.
4 Q. Do you remember what these people were wearing?
5 A. I can't say. Maybe I was too scared to notice, but all I
6 remember is all of them wearing black or that sort of thing.
7 Q. Were they men, or women, or both?
8 A. A group of men.
9 Q. Did you recognise any of them or know any of them?
10 A. No, not a single one.
11 Q. Did you continue to live in Dasinovac after your -- after you
12 took your sister-in-law to Pec?
13 A. Yes, we continued to live there until the 22nd or 23rd of April.
14 Q. What happened a few days before the 22nd or 23rd of April?
15 A. I started worrying about our safety. There were none of our Serb
16 neighbours left in the area, so I went to the village to seek
17 information -- I mean, Dasinovac itself, but no one was willing to come
18 out and talk to me, none of the people there. I only came across women
19 and children. That same day, however, Isuf Sadikaj, a neighbour of mine,
20 came looking for me. He said, I know you've been to see me, I know
21 you've been looking for me, and there's nothing I can tell you. Just
22 stay in your home. Don't take the road to Decani because those people
23 from Glodjane are in control of that road.
24 I then proceeded to ask him who exactly was in control of what
25 and who those people were. He said, Just stay at home and don't worry.
1 We'll look after you.
2 Q. What did you understand him to mean by the expression, "Those
3 people from Gllogjan"?
4 A. I asked him a number of questions: Who are they? What are they?
5 And he said, Ask no questions. Just stay at home, don't go anywhere,
6 don't leave home, and certainly make sure not to take that road to
8 Q. Well, what did you understand to mean -- what was your
9 understanding of those people from Gllogjan? Apart from what he said to
10 you, what did you understand that to mean?
11 A. Well, I simply thought that the safest thing to do was to just
12 follow his instructions. He said he was speaking on behalf of the
13 village. I took him seriously. We headed back home and never again
14 tried to leave home or our property.
15 Q. You said a moment ago that a few days before the 22nd or 23rd of
16 April, you "started worrying about our safety." Why did you start
17 worrying about your safety? What were your fears?
18 A. My house is on an elevation. Not far from my property, there is
19 a road leading from Dasinovac to the village of Bardonici. We used to
20 see armed men walking along that road, and at night there would be cars
21 speeding by at break-neck speed, but we never tried to approach any of
22 them or make contact.
23 Q. Describe these armed men you saw walking along the road.
24 A. Well, those were - how can I say this? -- it was quite far from
25 my house but there were groups of men passing by, sometimes two,
1 sometimes three, and one could see them -- one could see their rifles
2 slung over their shoulders.
3 Q. What were they wearing?
4 A. It seemed to me that they were wearing black all the time, but I
5 was too far to notice any details in terms of their clothing.
6 Q. Was this a usual or an unusual thing, that there were armed men
7 with rifles slung over their shoulders walking past your house?
8 A. It was unusual, the reason being there were not many hunters in
9 that village. Most of those were Serbs, although there were both Serb
10 and Albanian hunters, but these were men I'd never seen before.
11 Q. Why did this cause you fear?
12 A. Well, our fear was caused by everything that was going on around
13 us; the attack on Prascevic and then that house in Ratis, which is not
14 too far from my own house. Those men passing by, and then the words told
15 me by that neighbour, which caused me a great amount of fear, to me and
16 to all of us, I should say.
17 Q. Can I just ask you to clarify which words are you speaking -- are
18 you referring to when you say "the words told to me by the neighbour"?
19 A. Sadikaj Isuf, his words. He said, Don't leave home. Stay at
20 home. We'll look after you.
21 Q. Did you know or recognise any of the men walking past your home
23 A. No.
24 Q. Do you know where they were coming from or going to or why they
25 were walking along that road?
1 A. No. They seemed to be patrolling the area between the cemetery
2 and as far as I could see in the direction of Bardonici. They would walk
3 as far as the cemetery and walk back the same way, and this was quite a
4 frequent occurrence.
5 Q. But what happened on the 22nd of April, 1998? Were you at home?
6 A. Yes, I was.
7 Q. What were your neighbours doing?
8 A. I don't know exactly what you had in mind. I'm slightly confused
10 Q. All right. Do you know anyone called Nrec Hajdare or
11 Gjon Fazli Hajdare?
12 A. Yes, those are my next-door neighbours.
13 Q. Did you see them doing anything; if so, what was it?
14 A. Yes, that day at about 4.00 -- perhaps it was past 4.00, I saw
15 Nrec Hajdare, he came out of the cellar, and Gjon Hajdare was with him,
16 they brought up a huge machine-gun, and there was a third man with them
17 wearing black and a black cap. He seemed to be in a hurry while Gjon was
18 trying to get him to slow down. He was pulling him back, sort of trying
19 to get him not to hurry.
20 A little while later, there was a fourth voice that was heard, it
21 was a hoarse voice saying, Listen, don't go anywhere without my orders.
22 And then the next thing he said was, Listen, we're setting out. We'll
23 catch all of them and kill them. Let's get on with it.
24 A little while later, there was this muted shot from some sort of
25 a shot-gun or a rifle, a muted sound of a shot muffled. I was scared,
1 and I was concerned about my family and my neighbour. I got all of them
2 to go to a nearby forest to take cover. There was a great amount of fear
3 in the air the moment the shot was heard, and many people headed towards
4 our house.
5 Q. Just take you back for a moment. You said, "We'll catch all of
6 them and kill them." Who did you understand them to be referring to when
7 they said that?
8 A. At the time, my family and my neighbour were the only Serbs
9 around, so the reference was probably to us.
10 Q. Who were the many people who headed towards your house?
11 A. Albanians. There were some of our neighbours there, but I did
12 not see any of our neighbours carrying weapons.
13 Q. Were any people in that group carrying weapons?
14 A. Yes, there were people carrying weapons, long-barrel weapons.
15 There were some long barrels there in that group.
16 Q. And what were they wearing?
17 A. Some had a mixture of camouflage uniform and civilian clothes;
18 the top being camouflage and the bottoms civilian. Some were wearing
19 black. As my fear at the time was great, there seemed to be very many of
20 them. We were really scared, and we ran to the woods to seek cover.
21 Q. When you say "we," are you referring to your family members?
22 A. Yes, my family members and my neighbour who was there with his
23 wife and his one-year-old child. They were visiting us at the time when
24 this happened.
25 Q. Did you know or recognise any of the armed people?
1 A. No, not a single one.
2 Q. How close did they get to your family before you decided to go --
3 to run to the woods to seek cover?
4 A. Well, believe me, we were really scared, and this is not the sort
5 of thing that I was focusing on. But as soon as we heard the shot, we
6 ran to the woods, too, to seek cover there.
7 Q. Can you give an approximate figure of how many people were in
8 that group and how many appeared to you to be armed?
9 A. It was quite a large group. It's difficult for me to say how
10 large specifically. My fear was too great. I couldn't think in those
11 terms, I couldn't even look back to see what was going on in our house.
12 We simply reached this grove near our home, and we spent that entire
13 night there. Around this wood, one could hear Albanian voices talking
14 and laughing. We could hear someone drive up to our house in a car and
15 turning around there, that sort of thing, and noises.
16 Q. Did you speak Albanian and read and write Albanian then?
17 A. Yes. At the time I spoke Albanian, was quite fluent, and I was
18 able to both read and write Albanian.
19 Q. Where did you, your family, and your neighbours sleep that night?
20 A. We spent the entire night in the woods. It was bitterly cold,
21 and the small baby was crying. The baby's father even tried to smother
22 the baby at one point, but we managed to get him not to do that. We
23 tried to head through the woods towards Ratis, but at the far end of the
24 wood we noticed some people standing there smoking. There were three or
25 four of them, which made us change our minds and walk back to where we
1 had come from. We spent the entire night in the woods, and at about
2 daybreak we decided to head back home and see what happened.
3 Q. What happened when you got home?
4 A. Once we had reached our house, we realised that no one had
5 entered the house the previous night. We stayed there. My mother brewed
6 us some coffee, but we ran out of firewood at one point. My mother said,
7 Off I go to get some firewood. And I said, Please, mother, don't go. It
8 was daybreak, it was light, and I said, Don't go, someone will see you.
9 And she said, Don't worry about me, nothing will happen to me.
10 As soon as she was out of that door, we heard someone say in
11 Serbian, Good morning. And then three of our neighbours came in
12 following her.
13 Q. Who were they?
14 A. Azir Sadikaj was the first to get in, then Gjon Hajdare, and then
15 Fazlija and Qaus -- no, I'm sorry, not Qaus, Qamil Romaj [phoen]. They
16 were in civilian clothes. They were concerned and they were friendly
17 towards us.
18 Q. Were they armed?
19 A. No, none of them had any weapons with them.
20 Q. Why did they come to your house?
21 A. As soon as they came, they said, Listen, neighbours, the
22 situation is very bad. These men from Glodjane have come and took over
23 the village, or are, rather, in the village. We somehow managed to
24 persuade them last night and gave them guarantees for your safety. The
25 situation is very bad, and it seems that you will have to leave the
1 village immediately.
2 Q. Did you have any weapons in your house?
3 A. Yes, we did.
4 Q. Did they say anything to you about your weapons?
5 A. Yes, they told us that they had persuaded the men from Glodjane,
6 and I must emphasise that they always used this phrase, "Those from
7 Glodjane or the army from Glodjane." So in return for our release, they
8 demanded that we surrender our weapons in the centre of the village.
9 Q. Can you just specify by who -- who is the "they" you're referring
10 to? In return for our release, they demanded that we surrender. Are you
11 referring to the three neighbours or to somebody else?
12 A. According to my neighbours, those from Glodjane had demanded that
13 we turn in our weapons in the centre of the village.
14 Q. What was your response to what they said to you?
15 A. Well, at first we were worried. We asked them what had happened.
16 Why was such a huge group of people rushing towards us the previous
17 night? They said that was just for a moment. We could quickly manage to
18 calm them down. And now they allow us to come to you and provide and
19 offer guarantee for your safe leave out of the village, provided you hand
20 in your weapons.
21 After that, these three men left, and about a half an hour later
22 my younger brother and I buried an old pistol and an old gun in the
23 garden. When the three returned, they said, Hurry-up, we don't have much
24 time. Don't you take any valuables with you like gold, money, and things
25 like that. Nothing must be in the boot of your car, apart from the two
1 rifles that you have to surrender in the centre of the village for those
2 men to see it clearly.
3 Q. What happened then?
4 A. We listened to them. We didn't take any of our belongings with
5 us, apart from our identification cards - and I mean my brother and I.
6 We put the two rifles into the boot of the car, and neither I nor my
7 brother had noticed that the neighbour who was with us put in a little
8 bag with baby's stuff like nappies and things like that. We were
9 followed all the way to the village. One of the neighbours, one in front
10 of us and the other one was behind of us, while my family and the third
11 neighbour were in the car. The first man was carrying something yellow
12 in his hand looking like a towel, and he was waving it as a kind of sign
13 or recognition or something like that.
14 Q. When your family left your house that day, what did you leave
16 A. We left everything behind, everything we had, the cattle, the
17 wealth that we had, everything remained there. I must say nothing apart
18 from our identity cards did my brother and I take from our village.
19 Q. Where did you go with those three neighbours in your brother's
13 A. We went to Decani from Rausic and reported at the Decani police
14 station everything that had happened to us. Then from Decani, we went to
15 Pec. At my sister's place and with some friends, we stayed for two or
16 three days. Then we went back to Decani and tried to find accommodation
17 in the vicinity of the Decani monastery.
18 Q. And did you find accommodation there?
19 A. Yes, we did. We found an accommodation, an old holiday resort
20 near Decani.
21 Q. Describe the accommodation, just very briefly?
22 A. It was a holiday resort of a company from Djakovica. These were
23 prefabricated bungalows made of wood. There were other Serbian families
24 there. I even remember that there was a Muslim family. They later left,
25 but I don't know where they went. All the peoples staying in those
1 bungalows were Serbs.
2 Q. Why were those Serb families staying there? What did they tell
3 you about the reasons why they were there?
4 A. All of them had to leave their villages as a result of terrorist
5 activities in our municipality at the time. Some of them came before us,
6 some came after us, but all of them were from the villages in the area
7 where I came from. There were people from Papracani, Ratis,
8 Gornji Ratis, Dasinovac, Ljubarda.
9 Q. Don't tell me where you went, but just tell me how long you and
10 your family stayed in that refugee accommodation for.
11 A. We stayed until 1999 in Decani, but I must tell you that at times
12 only we lived there. We spent most of our time at my sister's in Pec. I
13 also went to Podgorica; I worked on the coastline. I spent a lot of time
14 in the monastery as well because I worked there.
15 Q. When did you leave that accommodation finally, as best as you
17 A. Sometime in the -- in mid-June 1999, at the very end of the
18 bombing campaign.
19 Q. When did you next go back to your land in Dasinovac, after
20 leaving in the manner you've just described on -- about the 23rd of
21 April, 1998?
22 A. I went back for the first time in September or more probably
23 October of that same year. I went back simply after asking some
24 policemen, Is it safe to go to Dasinovac? And they said, Why wouldn't it
25 be? You can go freely there. So my younger brother and I, a neighbour
1 of ours, and a woman first went to our house, then we went to their
2 houses. We spent altogether about ten minutes in each of the houses, and
3 then we went back.
4 Q. Why did you not go back until either September or October 1998?
5 Was there anything stopping you going back?
6 A. Well, I must tell you that at the time there was fierce fighting
7 at the time. I don't know how to describe it because on many occasions
8 whenever I wanted to go to my place, residential place, from Pec, there
9 were roadblocks. It sometimes took two or three days to reach Decani
10 from Pec.
11 Q. Whose roadblocks were they?
12 A. The KLA. There were official reports that the KLA had attacked
13 the police and the army. There was shooting. People were saying that it
14 wasn't safe. Even the police didn't allow us to travel between Pec and
15 Decani because it was not safe.
16 Q. Did you see these roadblocks, KLA roadblocks, yourself, or was it
17 something you heard about?
18 A. No. I never saw those roadblocks because I simply didn't want to
19 take any chances. If somebody tells me, Don't go there, it's dangerous,
20 then I obey.
21 Q. Was it the Serb police who were saying, Don't take that road?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. And you described a moment ago there being fierce fighting. Who
24 was the fighting between?
25 A. Between the Albanian terrorists and most probably police.
1 Believe me, I never wanted to become involved in things like that. I'm
2 not that kind of person. I was living very nicely and peacefully in Pec
3 during that period.
4 Q. Now, describe the state of your property when you went back with
5 your younger brother in about September or October 1998. What did you
7 A. The property was completely destroyed. There were about 2
8 hectares under wheat. It had been harvestless [as interpreted]. The
9 stables were completely destroyed. I mean for sheep, for cows, for
10 horses. Some outbuildings also were destroyed. The house was totally
11 demolished. There was -- there were no doors or windows. We didn't find
12 any of our belongings in the house. The tools that we had were
13 disappeared -- had disappeared. The well, water-well, was destroyed.
14 The forest had been felled down.
15 Q. What about your animals, were they there?
16 A. No, we didn't find any of the cattle that we used to have.
17 Q. What about the other animals? You described a horse, a cow, five
18 pigs, some chickens.
19 A. No. There was nothing. We didn't find anything. The place
20 where beehives were was empty, the stables were destroyed, so there was
21 nothing left of the livestock that we had. We didn't find anything.
22 Q. You just said your house was totally demolished. Can you give a
23 better description of what you saw when you went back there. What do you
24 mean by "demolished"?
25 A. The house was totally empty. There was just a pile of rubbish in
1 one of the rooms. There were no windows or doors. They even ripped out
2 the electrical wiring from the walls. There were no sockets, there were
3 no bulbs, nothing. The house had graffiti on it, UCK or KLA and other
4 things were written on it.
5 Q. Did it have a roof?
6 A. The roof was destroyed, but the house had not been set on fire.
7 Part of the roof was missing and part of the roof was there, as if
8 someone had been taking tiles one by one and removing them.
9 Q. What about personal effects such as clothing, photographs, things
10 like that, were any of those remaining?
11 A. We left everything, our documents, my father's photographs, our
12 clothing, and we found nothing when we came back.
13 Q. Have you ever recovered any of the things that you left behind on
14 about the 23rd of April, 1998?
15 A. No, never again.
16 Q. When was the next time you went -- when was the next time you
17 were able to go to the property? You described going there in September
18 or October 1998.
19 A. The next time I went was in 2001, and I went there escorted by
20 Italian soldiers from KFOR. Then we went again in 2003; again we were
21 escorted by both KFOR and the Albanian police.
22 Q. Does your family still own the property?
23 A. Yes, we still own the property.
24 Q. On that day you went back and stayed there for about ten minutes,
25 you said you went to two other properties and stayed about ten minutes
1 each there. Whose houses were those, and what did you see when you got
3 A. First we went to the house of Radun Dabetic. His house was also
4 destroyed, but there was some clothes and some old things in the house.
5 And Novak Stijovic's house was completely empty and everything was
6 destroyed, just as it was the case with my house.
7 Q. I want to ask you about a neighbour called Adzija Redzaj, forgive
8 my pronunciation, and speaking to him sometime in 1998 after you had left
9 your home?
10 A. In 1998, after we had left the village, maybe two or three months
11 later we accidentally met near Pec. We greeted each other. We were on
12 good terms. I asked him to join me for a drink. I said, Come,
13 neighbour, there's a Serbian cafe nearby. So without thinking for a
14 second, he joined me.
15 We sat down and I asked him how he was, how his family was, and
16 he said, Don't ask me anything. I asked him, How is the situation in the
17 village? And he said, I don't know. I had to leave the village just
18 like you had. And I asked him, Why, what happened with our livestock and
19 our property? And he told me, Neighbour, believe me, I don't know.
20 Immediately after your departure from the village, a bit -- maybe half an
21 hour later, Ramush Haradinaj came to the village and started shouting at
22 Isuf and the rest of us in the village, Why did you let them go? Why did
23 they leave?
24 And then I asked him why you had to leave the village? And he
25 said, Don't ask me anything. I had to leave all my property and leave
1 the village. I had all my belongings in one plastic bag. And I asked
2 him why was he shouting? He said, Don't ask me. We had problems because
3 we let you go.
4 Q. I just want to separate two of the things you've said there. You
5 said Ramush Haradinaj started shouting at Isuf. Is that Isuf Sadikaj?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the rest of us in the village, why did you let them go? Why
8 did they leave? Stop you there. Did Adzija Redzaj tell you who
9 Ramush Haradinaj was referring to when he said, "Why did you let them
11 A. No, he didn't. He only said that he was shouting at Isuf and the
12 rest of them, but he didn't say specifically who he was shouting at and
13 what happened next. He said only that when he came, he was very angry
14 and said that no one else must leave, either our village or the
15 neighbouring village.
16 Q. And a moment ago, you said he said, Don't ask me anything. I had
17 to leave all my property and leave the village. Were you referring to
18 your friend Adzija Redzaj, as saying, he said, Don't ask me anything;
19 that is, he told you, Don't ask me anything, he had to leave the village?
20 A. Yes, that's what Adzija told me.
21 Q. Now, did you know Ramush Haradinaj at any point in your life?
22 A. I finished elementary school the first four years in Rznic, and
23 his father had a shop some 200 metres from the school. I often went
24 there. His father's name was Hilmi, if I remember correctly. He was a
25 fine old gentleman, and we often went to his store almost every day. So
1 it is possible and I think that Ramush Haradinaj used to come as well. I
2 was very young at the time. And I didn't pay much attention to that. So
3 I know him from the time when I was attending school in Rznic.
4 Q. When was the last time you think you saw him in person?
5 A. I can't remember. I may have been 14 or 15 at the time, seventh
6 or eighth grade perhaps.
7 Q. I want to ask you about someone called - excuse me for one
8 moment - someone called Milos Radunovic. Did you know someone called
9 Milos Radunovic?
10 A. Yes, I did. It's a neighbour who lived in Dasinovac, a kilometre
11 from my house perhaps.
12 Q. When was the last time you saw Milos Radunovic?
13 A. The day before I left my property and my home.
14 Q. Where did you see him?
15 A. He came sometime after 3.00 to see me, to my home, my family,
16 visiting. Sometime past 3.00.
17 Q. And how long did he stay?
18 A. Between 30 and 45 minutes, I would say.
19 Q. What means of transportation did he have?
20 A. He rode a bike.
21 Q. And after 30 to 45 minutes, where did he go?
22 A. He said he would be on his way to see Slobodan Radosevic.
16 Q. What did you hear about what happened to Milos Radunovic --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, let's turn into private session for a
19 [Private session]
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 How much time do you think you would still need, Mr. Re?
15 MR. RE: Probably about 15 minutes, that's allowing for marking
16 of two exhibits.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you try to do it in approximately ten
18 minutes and then we will have the break and then we, after the break, the
19 Defence will have an opportunity to cross-examine the witness. Please
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. What did you hear about what happened to Milos Radunovic?
23 A. On the way from Dasinovaci to Decani, the day after -- the day I
24 left my house, Xhevdet Sadikaj and I went as far as Rausic together and
25 Xhevdet himself told me this, Yesterday those people from Glodjane caught
1 Miroslav Radunovic as he was passing my house on a bike. They pulled him
2 off the bike and said, Where have you been? We've been looking for you.
3 Xhevdet claimed that he and his father had tried to help Milos, but they
4 shoved them aside and told them not to get involved, that they had no
5 business being there or doing anything. They drove back to Milos's
6 house. They opened the boot of that car, and they told Milos, Okay, so
7 what can you tell us now? These are weapons that we found at Milos
8 Radunovic's house and then Xhevdet claims they said, Now we're off to get
9 Slobo to catch Slobo and they were off to Slobo Radosevic's house. Soon
10 after Xhevdet claims that a lot of shooting could be heard. I heard the
11 same sounds of shooting but Xhevdet claims that 10 or 15 minutes after,
12 he was at the juncture between Slobo and Xhevdet's house and the road to
13 Decani -- actually, the road to Decani and the road to Glodjane and then
14 he says he saw Slobo and Milos who had been captured already. Milos had
15 been wounded in his arm and they were being taken to Glodjane.
16 Q. When was the last time -- I withdraw that?
17 Did you know Slobodan Radosevic?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. When was the last time you saw him?
20 A. Perhaps seven or eight days before I left my village.
21 Q. A moment ago you said you -- you heard the -- you said something
22 about hearing the sounds of shooting. Can you just elaborate on that?
23 What did you hear? What were you and where was the shooting coming from
24 and about what time was it?
25 A. It was the day before we left our house. Milos had gone on
1 before us, 10 or 15 minutes previously; and after his departure there was
2 a great deal of shooting from Slobo Radosevic's house, from those
3 whereabouts. It went on for about 10 or 15 minutes. We didn't know at
4 the time what exactly was happening.
5 Q. What else did Xhevdet Sadikaj tell you about his own situation?
6 A. Xhevdet said, I'm also involved in this army, but I disagree with
7 these decisions. I'm not in favour of dealing with it like this. I'm in
8 favour of a peaceful solution here. We're helping you to get out. He
9 also said that he had seen Milka and Mika the day before and that they
10 were fine, and that as soon as he took us to Rausic he would be back to
11 help get the two of them out of the village as well.
12 Q. Okay. I'll come to that in a moment. Which army was he -- did
13 you understand him to be referring to when he said, I'm also involved in
14 this army but I disagree with these decisions?
15 A. He didn't tell me himself, but it was my understanding that he
16 was a member of the Kosovo Liberation Army.
17 Q. What gave you that understanding?
18 A. Well, that was the only army around at the time, paramilitary I
19 mean, in my area.
20 Q. But did he tell you -- did he say anything to you about Isuf
22 A. He said, I am standing in for him and all will be fine that I had
23 agreed with Isuf, whereas there had been no agreement between myself and
24 Isuf Sadikaj, apart from his promise that we would not come to any harm,
25 that we should just stay at home and that the village would look after
2 Q. Did he tell you or did you have any understanding of what Xhevdet
3 Sadikaj's position was within that army?
4 A. No. He didn't say, nor was able to infer anything about that.
5 The only thing he did say was that he was at this time standing in for
6 Isuf Sadikaj. Isuf Sadikaj is a very pleasant young man, same generation
7 as me. We used to socialize. There is not a single bad thing I could
8 possibly say about him, at the time or now for that matter.
9 Q. What did you understand Isuf Sadikaj's position to be within that
10 army and what did you understand to mean by, I am standing in for him?
11 A. Well, he said he was standing in for Isuf Sadikaj. That was all
12 he said, and believe me, I'm not sure how to take it.
13 Q. A moment ago you referred to - excuse me for one moment - Milka
14 and Mika. Who were they? Not -- just their names, please, nothing else,
15 what the names are, Milka and Mika?
16 A. Do you want to know about their surnames.
17 Q. Yes?
18 A. Milka Markovic and Mika Radunovic.
19 Q. Did you know them?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. When was the last time that you saw them?
22 A. I can't remember about Mika. I saw Milka up to ten days before I
23 left my village.
24 Q. What did Xhevdet Sadikaj tell you about the two of them when he
25 had last seen them?
1 A. He assured me that day that he had seen them. He said, I saw
2 them yesterday. They are fine. I'll try to get them out of the village,
3 too. As soon as I leave you there, I'll go back and get them. Don't you
4 worry about those two. I'm sure I'll manage.
5 And I said, What about the rest of them? He said, I can't say.
6 The two of them probably as soon as I am done leaving you there, I'll go
7 back and get them, too.
8 MR. RE: I'm going to go into closed session for one -- in a
9 moment. I'm just telegraphing where I'm going to get the witness to mark
10 something on a map.
11 Q. Before we do that, I just want you to clarify something. You
12 said there were seven or eight --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you perhaps already inform Madam Registrar
14 which ones of these, so that loading takes less time.
15 MR. RE: I'll do that. Onto -- P10.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
17 MR. RE:
18 Q. You said there were seven or eight, ten or so Serb families in
19 your village area. Just briefly tell -- I won't ask for the names at the
20 moment, but tell the Trial Chamber (redacted)
23 (redacted) All those who stayed behind never made it out of
24 the village, of my village, the Radunovics and the Radosevics.
25 MR. RE: If we could go into private session and the witness
1 could be shown Exhibit P10, please.
2 [Private session]
11 Pages 2252-2254 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 MR. RE:
1 Q. Witness 60, after leaving your house, were you ever mobilised or
2 did you participate in police or paramilitary operations against Albanian
4 A. No.
5 MR. RE: That's the evidence-in-chief.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 MR. RE: Have we got an exhibit number -- we've got an exhibit
9 JUDGE ORIE: Which one?
10 MR. RE: We have an exhibit number, can it be admitted into
11 evidence rather than marked for identification?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's what follows usually. Mr. Emmerson --
13 MR. EMMERSON: One very brief matter, if I may.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could Defence counsel give me -- thank you, Madam
21 Registrar. Could Defence counsel give me an indication how much time
22 they would need for cross-examination? Mr. Emmerson or Mr. Dixon.
23 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honour. I should certainly be done
24 by the end of the session today, by 7.00.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that means that you would need a little over
1 one hour?
2 MR. DIXON: Exactly, yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Other counsel?
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Five minutes if at all, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Five minutes.
6 Mr. Harvey.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Perhaps I should say seven just to be safe.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. HARVEY: Unlikely to be any cross-examination.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Mr. Dixon, if you could -- if it would be possible for you to
12 finish seven minutes before the end of today's session.
13 MR. DIXON: I will certainly try, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Thank you.
15 Then for you, Mr. Re, page 1411 gives the stipulation on line 12
16 in relation to the 2nd of March, which relies -- the stipulation relies
17 on P22. It was done in the presence of your colleague Mr. Kearney.
18 We have a break until a quarter to 6.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 5.22 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dixon, are you ready to cross-examine
22 Witness 60?
23 MR. DIXON: Yes, Your Honour, I am.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 60, you'll be cross-examined by Mr. Dixon,
25 who is counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
1 Please proceed.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Dixon:
3 Q. Witness 60, do you know an UNMIK official from Peje by the name
4 of Luis Perez-Segrini?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. It's correct, isn't it, that he visited you in about 2000, and he
7 told you that you had been accused of ethnically cleansing Albanians in
8 1999, isn't it?
9 A. No. I met him in 2000 in Visoki, Decani monastery. What you are
10 talking about took place sometime in 2003.
11 Q. Fine. In 2003, did he tell you that you had been accused of
12 ethnically cleansing Albanians, and it was alleged that you were the
13 chief person involved in expelling Albanians from Decani municipality; is
14 that right?
15 A. Yes, that's right.
16 Q. Why did he come and tell you this information in 2003?
17 A. In 2003, I again visited the monastery of Decani, and before that
18 we discussed some other things. And then during the break, he told me
19 that somebody had something against me, there was some indictment, but he
20 didn't show me any document nor did he take any notes about that. So
21 quite simply, he just told me that was about that and nothing else. He
22 didn't question me any further about the issue.
23 Q. You say he told you about some indictment. Did he tell you what
24 the allegations were in that indictment?
25 A. No, he only said that there was an indictment against me, that I
1 was the ring-leader in -- of the ethnic cleansing in the municipality of
3 Q. Did he tell you when he said "ethnic cleansing" what it was that
4 you were accused of doing in Decani?
5 A. No, he didn't make any specific statements.
6 Q. Did you ask him what these allegations were about?
7 A. No, I was simply sure that I couldn't have done anything like
8 that, nor did I do anything like that, and I didn't inquire much about
9 that. I said that I could give him the name, a few of the Albanian
10 families that can testify to the fact that I had nothing to do with that.
11 Q. Well, did you ask him which Albanians were making these
12 allegations against you and what these allegations were all about?
13 A. No, I didn't ask him. I simply knew it was not true, and I
14 didn't want to ask anything about that. After that, I often met Luis but
15 he never mentioned it again. I even went to the Decani municipality with
16 the -- for the group for the return of the expelled, and I met even a few
17 Albanians. None of them ever mentioned that to me, and I never gave it a
19 Q. Did you not meet him again in 2005, where he told you that a
20 group of Albanians were ready to confirm your involvement in ethnic
21 cleansing in Dasinovac?
22 A. Most probably I did meet him in 2005, not once but at least five
23 times, but he never mentioned that to me.
24 Q. Are you saying now that when you met him in 2005, on one of those
25 occasions he did not tell you that people were ready to confirm your
1 involvement in ethnic cleansing?
2 A. No. In 2003, he mentioned that only once very briefly, and he
3 never mentioned it again.
4 Q. Let me try and jog your memory. It was in (redacted)
5 that these allegations were mentioned to you. Isn't that right?
6 A. No, I wasn't there at the time that you mentioned, and it wasn't
7 mentioned to me.
8 MR. RE: Before my learned friend goes on ...
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Re.
10 MR. RE: I don't wish to --
11 JUDGE ORIE: You said "before" --
12 MR. RE: Before he continues, I wish to draw Your Honours'
13 attention to the transcript.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just --
15 MR. RE: Line 71.7 -- page 71.7 --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed, and ...
17 MR. DIXON:
18 Q. Witness 60, referring to what I've put to you, that there was
19 another meeting in 2005 in the place that I mentioned where the UNMIK
20 official told you that witnesses were ready to come forward regarding an
21 ethnic cleansing allegation, did you tell the Prosecution about that
22 meeting when you met with them over the weekend?
23 A. I used to meet with this man Luis, but he never mentioned that,
24 even mentioned the name of a village which is next to our village. I've
25 never been to this village and -- I mean, in the last ten years, I didn't
1 go to that village.
2 Secondly, except for in 2003 and Savdija Lata [phoen] was
3 interpreter, she was from Decani, and he mentioned that only very briefly
4 and never mentioned that again.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 60, I think that you did not carefully
6 listen to the question. The question Mr. Dixon put to you is whether you
7 told the Prosecution about the meeting just mentioned by Mr. Dixon when
8 you met with the Prosecution over this weekend.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I told the Prosecutor that in
10 2003, when I met with this man, he briefly informed me in very clear
11 terms about that, but he never mentioned that again to me. I must say
12 that last year I maybe met this man for another five or six times, but he
13 also never mentioned this case to me.
14 MR. DIXON:
15 Q. Witness 60, let me be absolutely clear. Are you saying that you
16 never mentioned to the Prosecution yesterday, that was Sunday, when you
17 told them about this matter, that in 2005 you had another meeting with
18 this UNMIK official where he told you that there were people ready to
19 come forward to confirm your involvement in ethnic cleansing in
20 Dasinovac, in particular? Did you never tell that to the Prosecution
21 yesterday; yes or no, please?
22 A. I have to make a clarification here. Yesterday, I told the
23 Prosecutor that I met this man sometime in 2003/2004, but most probably
24 2003. So I told them this yesterday, but -- can you repeat the remaining
25 part of your question, please?
1 Q. Yes, I'll do it again. In 2005, you had a meeting with an UNMIK
2 official where he told you that Albanians were ready to come forward to
3 confirm your involvement in ethnic cleansing in Dasinovac. Are you
4 saying you didn't tell the Prosecution that yesterday when you raised
5 this matter with them? It's a yes or no, please.
6 A. No, that's not how it was.
7 Q. Fine.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dixon, a compound question and a yes and a no,
9 sometimes it's a bit of a problem, and apart from that, the witness
10 doesn't answer your question at this moment.
11 Witness 60, what Mr. Dixon wants to find out is whether you had,
12 apart from another meeting you may have had, whether you also had a
13 meeting in which the UNMIK official told you that a group of Albanians
14 were ready to confirm your involvement in the ethnic cleansing of
15 Albanians in Dasinovac. Whether true or not is not the question. The
16 question is whether you told that this was said to you by the UNMIK
17 official and whether you said this to the Prosecution over the last
18 weekend. That's the issue.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: So you told them that UNMIK official had told you
21 that a group of Albanians were ready to confirm your involvement, again
22 whether true or not; that's what you told the Prosecution yesterday?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Dixon.
25 MR. DIXON:
1 Q. So, Witness 60, just to have it absolutely clear then, you are
2 now saying that you did tell the Prosecution that on two separate
3 occasions, once in 2003 and once in 2005, you told the Prosecution that
4 this UNMIK official told you about allegations of ethnic cleansing being
5 made against you?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Dixon, this question also is not
7 unambiguous. The 2003 and 2005 you first mentioned, and you said, You
8 told the Prosecution; that could be understood as that in 2003 and 2005,
9 you told the Prosecution. It could also be understood as -- you said two
10 separate occasions; one -- you told the Prosecution. That's unclear
11 whether the time relates to the UNMIK or to the Prosecution meeting.
12 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, I will clarify immediately.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. DIXON: Thank you.
15 Q. Witness 60, I'm talking about the meeting that you had last
16 night, Sunday, with the Prosecution. Are you now saying that at that
17 meeting, you told the Prosecution that there were two separate occasions,
18 one in 2003 and one in 2005, when the UNMIK official told you about these
19 allegations, so that you told the Prosecution last night that there were
20 two separate occasions when these allegations were put to you by the
21 UNMIK official. Do you understand my question?
22 A. I understand your question, but it seems that you don't
23 understand me. I'm saying very clearly only once in 2003 the UNMIK
24 official conveyed this to me, and he never mentioned it again. That's
25 what I told the Prosecutor last night; if he misunderstood me, I do
1 apologise. So only once he told me that in 2003 and never again.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dixon, I'm trying to clarify one thing.
3 At that one occasion, as you tell us now, did the UNMIK official then
4 also tell you that a group of Albanians were ready to confirm your
5 involvement in the ethnic cleansing, again whether true or not; but was
6 it at that one occasion that he told you about this group of Albanians?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, only once.
8 JUDGE ORIE: But including this information that a group of
9 Albanians were ready to confirm your involvement?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He only told me, We have some
11 information that you were involved in this and that you were there, but
12 he didn't mention any group or any indictment.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Dixon.
14 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Just one final question about these meetings. You said that you
16 met this UNMIK official on a number of occasions. Did you make inquiries
17 with him on these occasions about what was going on with these
18 allegations that were made against you?
19 A. No. I never asked him anything about that again.
20 Q. Yes, thank you.
21 In 1999, what was your elder brother - I'm not referring to your
22 younger brother - your elder brother doing? Where was he working?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dixon, is there any problem that identifying
24 information might come up?
25 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, it might be safest to go into private
1 session. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
3 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Dixon.
20 MR. DIXON:
21 Q. You said that you were in the Dasinovac area and that you could
22 hear fighting. Do you remember that?
23 A. Yes, I was in Dasinovac at the time. I heard shooting, but not
24 the fighting that you're referring to, if you are referring to the
25 shooting that was heard from Slobo Radosevic's house on the day before I
1 left the village.
2 Q. No, Witness, I'm not referring to that. I'm referring to the
3 time-period around September 1998 when you were in the Dasinovac area.
4 Did you, when you were there, see a number of houses that were on fire
5 that were burning down?
6 A. Yes, but I didn't hear any fighting or shooting. It was very
7 quiet at the time, and unfortunately some of the Albanian houses that I
8 had passed by had been burned down.
9 Q. Were they still on fire at the time that you passed through the
10 area in September 1998?
11 A. No, they weren't.
12 Q. Did you see any Serb forces, either police or army personnel,
13 around the area when you were there?
14 A. No. When we set off, we just inquired at the exit of Decani
15 about the situation in our village. There was -- there were no police or
16 any other formations there. We didn't see anyone.
17 Q. Were you aware when you were making these inquiries that there
18 had been a major offensive by the Serbian forces in that area at the end
19 of August and early September 1998?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dixon, may I ask you to what extent the question
21 properly reflects the evidence. The question, that's page 49.19, is --
22 no, it's a little bit earlier. The witness said that it was either
23 September or October that he went back; you're now referring to early
24 September, that's closer to August than to October.
25 MR. DIXON: Yes, Your Honour. I was only asking whether he, from
1 his inquiries, knew whether there had been any forces there.
2 JUDGE ORIE: No, but -- you said: "Were you aware when you were
3 making these inquiries," and the inquiries according to the evidence were
4 made just prior to going there, "that there had been a major offensive in
5 that area at the end of August or early September?" You're linking two
6 periods of time in a way that could be confusing and I would like you
7 to -- it's 49.12. He said: "I went back for the first time in September
8 or, more probably, October of that same year."
9 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, I'll put the question in a different
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
12 MR. DIXON: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Q. Witness 60, when you got to Dasinovac in September and October,
14 that rough time-period, you said that you saw that a number of the
15 Albanian houses had been burnt-down or destroyed. Did you have any
16 information then about how that had happened?
17 A. No, I didn't have and didn't seek or receive any information. I
18 simply asked in the place called Porketare which is the exit from Decani,
19 three or four policemen were there, and I asked them if it was safe for
20 me to go and take a look at my village of Dasinovac. And they said, Why
21 not, it's okay for you to go. And that was all I asked about.
22 Q. Thank you. I want to go back now to early 1998. You have said
23 in your witness statements - and there's no need to refer you to them now
24 unless it's necessary - that you remember that there was a big fight in
25 the village of Gllogjan and that a policeman called Otovic got killed.
1 Is that right?
2 A. Yes, I did say that. This was discussed, it was even on TV and
3 in the evening papers. I first heard it on TV and then later I read
4 about this in the papers.
5 Q. And just so we can date this, was that a reference to incidents
6 that took place on the 24th of March, 1998?
7 A. I don't know. I'm not familiar with the date.
8 Q. Okay. Did you speak to your Albanian neighbours about this
9 incident and what did they tell you?
10 A. No, I didn't discuss that with my neighbours. We simply didn't
11 comment on incidents like that.
12 Q. Did you know that in this big fight, as you called it, there were
13 a number of Albanians killed, Albanian houses burnt, and a number of the
14 villagers in Gllogjan had to flee from that area? Did you know that from
15 the news reports or from speaking to anybody?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did any of your Albanian neighbours tell you that they were
18 getting arms in order to ensure that they could be protected against any
19 future attacks, like the one that occurred on the 24th of March, or
20 around that time in Glodjane in a nearby village?
21 A. No.
22 Q. So it's your evidence that your neighbours didn't tell you
23 anything about what they were doing, what was going on in the village?
24 A. No. We led a country life. As I have pointed out, my father was
25 ill at the time; he eventually died. This is not the sort of thing that
1 we talked about with our Albanian neighbours, not ever.
2 Q. But you told us that you said you got on quite well with your
3 Albanian neighbours. Did you not talk to them about what was happening
4 in your area and villages surrounding your area?
5 A. We talked very little about that. We didn't really talk that
6 much. We were farmers. We did farming jobs. Believe me, I wasn't even
7 much interested at the time, except there was this fear later on. But I
8 never asked them any questions about that, nor did they come around my
9 way asking questions about anything like that.
10 Q. You mentioned there was this fear. Did the Albanians in your
11 village mention that they were afraid of anything at that time?
12 A. Yes. My next-door neighbour, an Albanian lady who was there,
13 Fazlija's wife Mira, said, We're really scared. What if the police come
14 to our village? Would you help us out then? And I said, Sure thing.
15 You have nothing to worry about. It will all be fine.
16 Q. So she was concerned that the Serbian police might come to the
17 village. Did she tell you what the people in the village were doing to
18 try and prevent that from happening?
19 A. No, no. We didn't speak about that or comment, nothing at all.
20 Q. Did you know that this person that you've mentioned --
21 MR. DIXON: And perhaps we should go into closed session again,
23 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I had some hunting weapons.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 Could you please repeat the question?
14 MR. DIXON: Yes, Your Honour, I will.
15 Q. What weapons did you have in your home?
16 A. Hunting weapons and an old pistol that used to belong to my
18 Q. Did you have an automatic weapon in your house?
19 A. No. There was a semi-automatic rifle sort of, but hunting was
20 all it was used for and this rifle, too, at one time belonged to my
22 Q. So you had a semi-automatic weapon and a pistol, and they were
23 both used for hunting, you say?
24 A. I had one semi-automatic rifle and two shot-guns. I'm not sure
25 how to explain. All of this was used for hunting, and the pistol was
1 just displayed in a prominent place in our home as some sort of a trophy.
2 Q. Now, you've given evidence that on the 22nd of April, this is the
3 day before you left, that you saw two of your neighbours, the Hajdares,
4 taking out an automatic weapon from their cellar. You said that took
5 place at about 4.00 p.m. in the afternoon. Is that right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And you said there were two other men with them. Is that right?
8 A. One man. There were other people some distance from them,
9 perhaps 10, 20, or 30 metres. Standing right next to them was this one
10 single man wearing black and some sort of a hood on his head.
11 Q. And you've said that the two neighbours and this man wearing
12 black were standing together. Were they having a conversation together,
13 talking amongst each other?
14 A. Yes, they were talking. They were far enough for me not to be
15 able to overhear their conversation.
16 Q. So are you saying you couldn't hear anything that they were
17 saying amongst each other. Is that right?
18 A. I wasn't able to actually hear them speak, but I did hear the
19 sound of their voices. I wasn't able to make out the words. I was too
20 scared to pay any sort of close attention to what exactly they were
22 Q. It's right, isn't it, that you were about a hundred metres or so
23 away from them?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. Now, Witness 60, you gave evidence earlier- and this is at page
1 40, line 17- that you did hear them saying something about setting out to
2 catch all of them and kill them. Let's get on with it. Do you remember
4 A. Yes, yes. That was that fourth voice I eventually heard. I
5 didn't see the person, but this was a sonorous male voice speaking very
6 clearly. It could be heard very clearly.
7 Q. This fourth male voice, was this person standing near to the
8 three men that we described early on?
9 A. No, no. That was further off.
10 Q. And how far were you away from this man?
11 A. I don't know, 130, 140 metres. Perhaps even further off than
13 Q. So he was standing further away than the three men who you
14 couldn't hear speaking. Is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Well, how was it then that you could hear this man speaking but
17 not the others who were standing closer to you? You couldn't have
18 possibly have heard these words?
19 A. Those people who were standing closer to me probably spoke
20 softly, whereas the fourth voice of that person who was standing some way
21 off, this was a booming voice and I could hear every single word
22 distinctly as if the person had been yelling at the top of his voice. It
23 could be heard distinctly and quite loudly.
24 Q. Did you hear anything else this fourth man was saying?
25 A. No, just what I said.
1 Q. So it's only these words that you've told us about that you
2 heard; everything else you couldn't hear?
3 A. That's right. That was what he said. In addition, there was
4 this muffled sound of a shot being fired from some sort of a hunting
5 weapon or a shot-gun. I wasn't sure myself. And they headed for our
6 house. We got really scared and we fled to the woods.
7 Q. Yes, I want to come to that. When you went to the woods, that
8 was sometime later after 4.00 p.m. when you say you first saw these men.
9 Is that right?
10 A. That's right.
11 Q. You came back, you said, the following morning to your village,
12 and you were spoken to by your neighbours again. The Hajdares were there
13 again in the morning, were they not, unarmed, you say, discussing with
14 you what the situation was?
15 A. I went back to my home, not my village. When I had left, I was
16 still near my house. It's true that the next morning Gjon Hajdare came
17 over, and he was unarmed. He looked to be of a friendly disposition at
18 the time.
19 Q. And this is the same Gjon Hajdare who you say was taking out a
20 machine-gun the day earlier and part of this group which forced you to
21 leave your house and go into the woods. Is that right?
22 A. Yes, yes, that's right. That's the same person.
23 Q. All right. Now, you said that you heard gun-fire for about 10 or
24 15 minutes the day before you left coming from the direction of the
25 Radosevic house. Do you recall that?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. Where were you at the time when you heard this gun-fire?
3 A. In the yard outside my home.
4 Q. Was this at about the same time when you saw the men taking a
5 machine-gun out of the cellar or not?
6 A. The men got the weapons from the cellar sometime after that
7 shooting, some 10 or 15 minutes later.
8 Q. Very well. The shooting that you heard, Witness 60, could you
9 describe what it was that you heard? Was there automatic fire? Lots of
10 gun-shots? Can you describe it for us, please.
11 A. There was a lot of gun-fire. I'm not sure what sort of weapons
12 we used, but there were individual gun-shots and bursts of fire. Believe
13 me, I really don't know what weapons were used. The distance from my
14 house, after all, must have been between 2 and 3 kilometres.
15 Q. When you say "bursts of fire," was this shooting and then a gap
16 and then some more shooting, or was it constant?
17 A. I don't remember clearly, but short intervals were made and then
18 there was barrage fire and individual shots, and it went on much along
19 the same lines for about 10 or 15 minutes.
20 Q. And could you hear shots being fired over other shots, lots of
21 shots being fired at the same time?
22 A. Yes, plenty, but I'm not quite certain what you're after. What
23 exactly do you mean when you say "lots of shots being fired at the same
24 time"? Are you asking if there was several different weapons being used
25 to fire? Yes, there were a number of different weapons involved in this
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. DIXON: Can we please go into closed session for the next
5 [Private session]
11 Pages 2278-2286 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 Witness 60, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith,
15 counsel for Mr. Balaj.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm going to request because of the nature of the
18 subject matter that we move back into private session. I was trying to
19 jump in.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll move into private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Page 2288 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
17 Questioned by the Court:
18 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 60, you told us about attacks on the Rznic
19 police station. Could you tell us how often was this police station
20 attacked, how many times?
21 A. Believe me, I don't know how many times it was attacked, but I do
22 know that it was attacked. It was in the media and there was talk in the
23 neighbourhood. The Serbs who came to visit me told me about this. Later
24 on, I think it was early April, this police station was relocated and
25 that is what I learned after we had left the village; in other words, the
1 police withdrew from Rznic.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So where you said that's when the attacks --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- when the attacks on the police station -- the
5 microphone is on.
6 When the attack on the police station started, you are aware of
7 one attack, not more than one attack?
8 A. I know that there were a couple of attacks, I don't know exactly
9 how many, but I never witnessed any such attack. This Rznic is some 7
10 kilometres from my home.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Were all the attacks on television or in the media
12 or was there one in the media?
13 A. Believe me, I don't know, but it was in the papers and on
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that, but what made you
16 believe that there was more than one attack? Because you said, I learned
17 about an attack by the media. How do you know that there were more
19 A. Well, from time to time the papers wrote about attacks on the
20 police station. My neighbours who came to see us talked about this and
21 so on and so forth. It was also on the local radio stations in Djakovica
22 and Pec.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
24 Mr. Re.
25 MR. RE: I've changed my mind. No re-examination.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You've changed your mind.
2 Any need -- the question has not triggered any need for further
4 Then, Witness 60, this concludes your evidence in this courtroom.
5 I'd like to thank you for having come to The Hague, for having answered
6 questions by the parties -- one question -- couple of questions by the
7 Bench as well.
8 Yes, Mr. Emmerson.
9 MR. EMMERSON: I don't know whether Your Honour wishes to say
10 anything to the witness about the possibility of re-call.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I could say something about it.
12 Before I wish you a safe trip home again, I inform you hereby,
13 that there is a possibility that we might want to further examine you on
14 certain matters. That's very uncertain, but just to inform you that
15 there is this possibility that -- let me -- one second, please.
16 Mr. Emmerson, would this also mean that I should -- usually a
17 witness doesn't get any instructions if he leaves the courtroom. I think
18 instructing the witness might do more harm than -- yes. Could you please
19 take your earphones off for a second.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Frankly, I'm in Your Honours' hands.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm asking your views on the matter, and I
22 expressed already that although in terms perhaps not fully understood by
23 the witness that I'm -- I think as a matter of fact that's wisest might
24 be not to do anything unusual under the present circumstances.
25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm certainly not trying to persuade Your Honours
1 to take any different course.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And I'm looking to different counsel and do not see
3 any strong opposition against this.
4 Could you ...
5 Yes. Well, I've now informed you that there is a chance, however
6 big that chance is I can't tell you, but at least there is a possibility
7 that we might want to see you again, but there's also a fair possibility
8 that we'll not invite you any further. At least for the time being, I
9 wish you a safe trip home again.
10 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness out of the
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: We have --
15 MR. EMMERSON: I see the time. I don't know whether Your Honour
16 had one or two matters that you wanted to deal with --
17 JUDGE ORIE: No, as a matter of fact, I only had P37 and P38 on
18 my list. If there's no objection, the one pseudonym sheet, the other one
19 a marked map, both under seal.
20 MR. EMMERSON: There's certainly no objections as far as the
21 Defence is --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I see no further -- no other objections
23 either. Then P37 and P38 are admitted into evidence. I have nothing
24 else on my list then to announce until when we would --
25 MR. EMMERSON: May I simply make one -- I see Mr. Re's occupied
1 just at the moment, but there is one issue that I ought to raise
2 formally. The witness gave evidence inconsistent with the letter that
3 Mr. Re provided yesterday about the content of the communications that
4 passed between them. Mr. Re was kind enough to indicate to me this
5 morning that those communications were the subject of a tape-recording,
6 and I wonder in those circumstances whether he would kindly review the
7 tape-recording and the words that the witness used and consider whether
8 he is in a position to confirm or deny the evidence that the witness gave
9 and what he proposes to do about it.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, are you willing to do so? When I passed
11 this invitation to you and, of course, you've heard it already, this is
12 not in any way anticipating on a decision still to be deliberated and
13 still to be taken by this Chamber.
14 So if we make that clear distinction, are you willing to review
15 your audio-recording to see whether perhaps you made a mistake or whether
16 the witness said something different from what he said during his
18 MR. RE: I'm willing to review it, yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then we'll hear from you, Mr. Re.
20 MR. RE: But I can't promise that straight away. I mean, we've
21 got to listen to it.
22 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, no. It may be known by now that I'm hardly
23 ever asking the impossible from the parties.
24 We adjourn until tomorrow, the 3rd of April, quarter past 2.00 in
25 this same courtroom, II.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 3rd day of
3 April, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.