1 Tuesday, 3 April 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.16 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone in and just outside the
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
9 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Di Fazio, I see -- is Mr. -- yesterday, I asked whether there
12 was any objection against D27, D28, D29, or D30.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: No, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No objections?
15 MR. DI FAZIO: No --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Then --
17 MR. DI FAZIO: -- if Your Honour would give me a moment, one of
18 them had to be kept - I think it might have been a Prosecution exhibit -
19 had to be kept under seal. I just need to check Mr. Re's e-mail, but
20 other than that there's no problem.
21 That's right, our only concern was P30, which has to remain
22 under seal.
23 JUDGE ORIE: D30, proofing notes.
24 Any objection against that having admitted under seal?
25 MR. EMMERSON: I think Mr. Di Fazio was referring to P30, rather
1 than D30.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, he said so. Yes.
3 Mr. Di Fazio, but I take it that in view of D30 -- yes --
4 MR. DI FAZIO: I just wanted to convey no problems with the
5 Defence exhibits, though.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll check carefully whether the Defence exhibits
7 -- perhaps you would like to check that as well, Mr. Emmerson, to see
8 whether there's anything in here which is protected.
9 MR. EMMERSON: I will do exactly that. So can we --
10 JUDGE ORIE: And then after the break, we'll hear from you or
11 later today.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, of course.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you. That's one issue.
14 Then when will the Chamber hear from the Defence whether there's
15 any objection against the, as I say, re-arranged exhibits for
16 Witness Andjelkovic? Because I did understand that it has been
17 re-arranged and that a letter was sent to the Chamber with a copy to
18 Defence teams, 2nd of April.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, can I again re-visit that after the break?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, no problem.
21 MR. EMMERSON: Because I'm slightly taken by surprise in relation
22 to it. I probably my fault rather than anybody else's.
23 JUDGE ORIE: If it only draws the attention to it now, then the
24 purpose has been served.
25 Then I would like to inform the parties that the Chamber has
1 decided that we will not be sitting on the following days, which are all
2 Fridays, unless - and that's the same condition as we earlier have
3 applied - unless we need parts of these days to conclude a witness's
4 testimony or deal with an urgent procedural matter. So it's not an
5 absolute non-sitting, and, of course, it's difficult to say it many weeks
6 in advance whether we are in such a situation. It would be the 27th of
7 April, 18th of May, 25th of May, and the 8th of June. I think some of
8 these dates were known already, but not all of them.
9 Then, Mr. Di Fazio, are you ready -- is the Prosecution ready to
10 call its next witness?
11 MR. DI FAZIO: I am, but could I just raise two very brief
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: They all concern this afternoon and how we go
15 ahead. Firstly, I -- I believe, Your Honours, that the parties and the
16 Trial Chamber was notified that I intended to use a very small excerpt
17 from a video that's been on our exhibit list for some time, and last week
18 we advised that we didn't intend to use any exhibits at all with this
19 witness. So I think I should formally raise that with you and make sure
20 that there's no problems, either from the Defence point of view or from
21 the Chamber's point of view.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Any problem as far as the Defence is concerned? I
23 see nodding no --
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- three times. Yes.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. The other issue is this: The next
2 witness -- sorry, not the next witness, the witness after the next
3 witness --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: -- I spoke to this morning, and the Defence have
6 received proofing notes, or rather, evidence there had been no proofing.
7 Now during the course of this conversation, he expressed to me
8 that he's pretty exhausted and pretty tired. He's a man who's received
9 some substantial injury during the war. And he says that he was
10 reluctant to testify today.
11 I undertook on his behalf to convey those remarks to you. I
12 don't know if the Defence can indicate how long they will be with the
13 next witness, the immediate witness, the one coming up next, I can
14 indicate that I won't be long with him. Now, if it transpires that the
15 Defence are going to be the lion's share of the remainder of the day,
16 Your Honours may care to consider not going past the next witness.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: That's all -- that's all I wanted to say.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would take less than the one and a half
20 hours scheduled?
21 MR. DI FAZIO: It is my earnest intention to take as shortest
22 time possible with this witness. I think -- I am confident it will be
23 under one and a half hours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Is there any indication - of course, it's
25 difficult to forecast - but would you need more than the usual time,
1 that's one and a half hours, same time?
2 MR. EMMERSON: I'd expected to be about an hour and a half with
3 this witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. EMMERSON: Can I just raise one other matter in terms of
6 timing and scheduling, in particular in relation to the point that
7 Mr. Di Fazio raises. Obviously, none of us has any desire whatsoever to
8 put a tired witness in the witness box, even for examination-in-chief.
9 Cross-examination of that witness is likely to be comparatively short.
10 The witness to follow, on the other hand, is likely to be
11 considerably longer. Can I just outline the position. It is Witness 8.
12 I had an indication from Mr. Re this morning that - and I won't go into
13 the details if Your Honours will forgive me - but that the Prosecution,
14 for reasons that he will explain or may explain, propose to elicit from
15 Witness 8 a part of his testimony but not the whole of his testimony, as
16 revealed in the statements, which would mean that his evidence-in-chief
17 might be rather shorter than was perhaps anticipated.
18 However, again for reasons I don't wish to go into at the moment,
19 the portion of his evidence that the Prosecution is not proposing to
20 elicit is a portion which we will in due course submit is essential to
21 understanding the witness's reliability and credibility. And so for that
22 reason, it will not in any way shorten cross-examination; indeed,
23 possibly the reverse because it will be necessary to traverse in
24 cross-examination material that would potentially be covered in chief.
25 The reason I'm mentioning now is because if the witness who is
1 about to follow after the present witness does not testify this afternoon
2 and, for example, occupies half of tomorrow's session, there is a danger
3 that we will find ourselves pressurised as to time at the back end of
5 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand. This Friday there's no possibility
6 for an overflow because it's a UN holiday, so therefore we have no
7 flexibility whatsoever.
8 Mr. Di Fazio, is -- first of all, is there any way of
9 communicating with the Defence what portions the Defence thinks could be
10 more efficiently dealt with in examination-in-chief in order to save a
11 lot of time at a later stage? I invite you to communicate, that might
12 not be all of it, but perhaps certain portions of it, and of course,
13 Mr. Emmerson, only to the extent that you feel free to -- well, to tell
14 Mr. Di Fazio because you're not giving the reasons but that perhaps might
15 not prevent you from identifying those portions you would like to be --
16 MR. EMMERSON: Just in case I left myself anything short of clear
17 on this, the witness that I was referring to a moment ago is not the
18 witness that Mr. Di Fazio is referring to but the one to follow on from
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes --
21 MR. EMMERSON: I can certainly communicate to Mr. Di Fazio as
22 regards the witness he is concerned about; that is to say, the gentleman
23 who is tired and --
24 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, I was referring to the other one that you --
25 MR. EMMERSON: There's no scope in relation to the other one for
1 any common ground at all.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then I've given it a try --
3 MR. EMMERSON: There is, however, scope for common ground and
4 shortening the evidence-in-chief with the witness who is proposed to be
5 called after the witness who is about to be called.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, okay. Then we have -- let's talk about the
7 first witness today and the possible second witness today -- well, let's
8 say the witness who you say has expressed that he is tired.
9 When did he arrive in The Hague, could you tell us?
10 MR. DI FAZIO: He got in last night. My understanding --
11 JUDGE ORIE: So relatively short he is in The Hague, yes.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: He got in -- yes, that's right. But he started
13 his -- it wasn't just a question of getting out of the capital city and
14 going to the local airport, he started a long journey to get to -- from
15 his home to one of our field offices. The trip from his home to the
16 airport started early yesterday, and then it was a long trip from there
17 to Amsterdam.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If, of course, if he would see whether there's
19 a possibility at all to ask the witness to come and testify, that would
20 be later today, most likely not before -- approximately 6.00 and would
21 not take much longer than one hour. Perhaps the VWS could see whether
22 they could give sufficient rest this afternoon to the witness. I don't
23 know whether -- unless there's still any conversations ongoing with him
24 or whether this is time for his own, and then to see whether we could
25 find a situation and we do not lose any further time, because 125 hours
1 has gone by very quickly, Mr. Di Fazio.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let's see whether the witness could be in such a
4 shape that he can -- that he can answer questions during one hour. Let's
5 see whether that's manageable; if not, of course, we'll have to accept
7 Then any other matter.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: No, not from the Prosecution.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I should just alert the Chamber that the
11 witness to follow all the witnesses that we have just spoken about is
12 also a witness who I contemplate will take a considerable period of time.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that's number 4 in the sequence which will
14 now start?
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yeah.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. That's on the record.
17 Madam Usher, could you -- would you please be so kind as to
18 escort the witness into the courtroom.
19 No protective measures, Mr. Di Fazio, as far as I understand?
20 MR. DI FAZIO: No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: May I expect Mr. Zvonko Markovic to enter the
22 courtroom in a minute?
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I certainly hope so, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 While we're waiting, it gives me an opportunity, I think a short
1 message was sent to the parties yesterday about marking of maps, and that
2 was inspired by the experience of yesterday afternoon, too.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: With respect, that's an excellent suggestion, Your
4 Honours. Unfortunately, I may have to refer to some maps this
5 afternoon -- well, a map this afternoon --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
7 MR. DI FAZIO: And I didn't -- obviously, couldn't get back to
8 this man, but in future we will certainly take up the Trial Chamber's
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do not hear any objections from the Defence.
11 Perhaps it's good to have it in full on the record when the witness has
12 not arrived; that is, that markings on neutral matters on maps are made
13 outside the court, and then the marked map be presented in evidence.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Can you hear me in a language you
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Markovic, at least I presume that you are
19 Mr. Markovic, before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of
20 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that
21 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 Madam Usher will now hand out the text. May I invite you to make that
23 solemn declaration.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Markovic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: You will first be examined by Mr. Di Fazio, who is
4 counsel for the Prosecution.
5 Mr. Di Fazio, you may proceed.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 WITNESS: ZVONKO MARKOVIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
10 Q. Mr. Markovic, are these details correct: You were born on the
11 26th of May, 1964, in Decani, and you are of Serb ethnicity?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In early 1998, you worked as a postman?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And that was in a small village, and pardon my pronunciation,
16 known as Gornji Streoc or something very similar to that?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Could you, please --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, could we first confirm the first name
20 of the witness?
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Are you Mr. Zvonko Markovic?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: What is the name of the village which just was
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gornji Streoc.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: S-t-r-e-o-c, if Your Honours please.
5 Q. Just a few more details about your occupation. How long had you
6 worked in that place as a postman?
7 A. Nine years.
8 Q. And some more personal particulars, please. Could you tell the
9 Trial Chamber of the names of your siblings, your brothers and sisters;
10 start with the oldest, include yourself, and finish with the youngest.
11 A. Sonja, Zvonko, Rade.
12 Q. Three children in your family?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And what was Rade's occupation in the 1990s?
15 A. He was a company manager. It was a trading company in Decani.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like you to turn your attention, please, to
17 the early months of 1998. You've told us that you were the postman and
18 that you were working in Gornji Streoc. Did you work there alone or were
19 there other employees working in the post office?
20 A. I was a post-master and also an employee, and there was a postman
21 who was delivering mail.
22 Q. And what was the area of responsibility, so to speak, for this
23 post office; in other words, to what area or, better still, to what
24 villages did your post office provide services to?
25 A. The post, as a building, was in Gornji Streoc. It covered the
1 villages --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slowly enumerate the
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It covered a total of nine
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you give the names of any villages, would
8 you please do it slowly so that the interpreters can translate.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. DI FAZIO:
11 Q. I don't -- I don't think we actually got the names of the
12 villages, if you can provide them. So if you can provide us with the
13 names of the villages to which you -- your post office provided services,
14 please do so, and do it slowly. Read -- list them slowly.
15 A. Gornji Streoc, Ljubisa, Istinic, Papic, Papracani, and
16 Donji Streoc.
17 Q. Thank you. Turn your mind back to the first few months of 1998.
18 Were you able to continue working in your role as postman at
19 Gornji Streoc?
20 A. Sometime in late March or April, one of my friends from
21 Gornji Streoc with whom I was intensively associated, and his name was
22 Sinan Musaj, told me that it was no longer safe for me to come to the
23 village to work because terrorists had emerged, and that it would be
24 better for me not to come to work anymore for my own safety.
25 I informed about that the authorities, or rather, our head office
1 in Djakovica, and they told me that I had waited too long because a
2 postman had been killed near Pristina, and there was a recommendation and
3 guide-lines issued to all post offices to make their own assessment
4 whether they would continue their services due to safety concerns.
5 With their approval, I closed the post office in Gornji Streoc
6 and moved to the post office in Decani. One counter was allocated to me
7 so that I can continue my work, paying out pensions, deliver letters,
8 et cetera.
9 Q. Thank you. What was the ethnicity of this gentleman Sinan Musaj?
10 A. He was an Albanian.
11 Q. Did he ever provide you with any more details, other than what
12 you've told us, about the terrorists emerging and that it would be better
13 not to come to work any more for your own safety? Did he go beyond that
14 or is that all he said to you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. So I take it that's all he said and you took his advice?
17 A. That's right.
18 Q. At the time when you closed the -- the post office, where were
19 you actually living?
20 A. In Decani.
21 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you've told us that you moved to Decani,
22 and you opened a special counter so that you could continue your work
23 paying up pensions and delivering letters. Now, was that to any specific
24 group of the population or was -- were you providing general services for
25 the area?
1 A. I provided services to the general area that I covered in
2 Gornji Streoc, and that applied to all the people who wanted to come and
3 collect their pension or their mail in Decani.
4 Q. Thank you. And just before we leave this topic, you said there
5 had been a recommendation and guide-lines issued to all post offices to
6 make their own assessment as to whether it was safe to continue
7 operating. Did you make that assessment as to whether it was safe to
8 continue Gornji Streoc's post office or did someone else take that
10 A. I followed Sinan's recommendation and advice that it wasn't safe.
11 I sought the opinion of my head office in Djakovica, and thereafter I
12 closed the post office.
13 Q. Thank you. And you -- I think you've mentioned this happened in
14 April, but can you be specific about when precisely it was, the closure
16 A. Sometime in April, but I don't know exactly as to the date.
17 Perhaps mid-April, but I'm just guessing.
18 Q. Okay. All right. So you moved to -- or rather, your work-place
19 was set up in Decani, and did you continue to work as a postman in
21 A. No. I worked there for about a month until I delivered all the
22 pensions and other allowances, and then I was called by the reserve
23 police force. I responded to this call. I closed my counter, and it was
24 taken over by the Decani post office while I joined the police.
25 Q. Okay. We just need to clarify a couple of matters there.
1 Firstly, you don't know exactly when it was that you moved from
2 Gornji Streoc to Decani, other than it was sometime in April, but you are
3 sure that you continued for about a month. So you would have continued
4 to work as a postman in Decani at least -- at the very least until early
5 March, possibly later. Is that correct or not?
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Early May --
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, May, I'm sorry. I can't -- school's --
8 Q. Early May?
9 A. Roughly speaking, yes.
10 Q. Okay. And, finally, just one more matter from your previous
11 answer. You closed your -- you said you closed your counter, and it was
12 taken over by the Decani post office. Do -- am I -- do I understand you
13 correctly that after Gornji Streoc, you actually worked out of the
14 building of the Decani post office, in that very building, for that extra
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. Okay. Now, let's turn to the issue of your call-up. You told us
18 that you received some sort of call-up, call-up notice. What precisely
19 was that call-up and what -- what did you do?
20 A. They called me by telephone. I don't know exactly the name and
21 the position of that person in the police, but he was in charge of
22 calling-up reservists. Since this was not the first time for me to be
23 called up to the reserve, it happened in 1997/1998 that I had to go for a
24 month or two as needed, so I reported at the police station and I was
25 issued with a uniform and weapons.
1 Q. I don't quite understand part of that answer. Had you been
2 called up as a reserve police officer prior to May of 1998?
3 A. Well, I had been with the reserve police since 1990, on their
4 list that is. I had been on the list since 1990. In 1997, I spent a
5 month with the reserve forces. So whenever they needed men, they would
6 call some up, and then a month or two later they would release you until
7 the same thing happened all over again.
8 Q. Okay. And where, in 1997, were you based and where did you carry
9 out your activities during that particular call-up, the one in 1997?
10 A. Normally, outside the Decani police station.
11 Q. Thank you. We'll now turn your attention to the call-up that
12 you've spoken of that took place in 1998. Now, that happened after you
13 stopped -- rather, that brought about an end to your job as postman at
14 Decani; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And where did you -- where did you take up your duties as a
17 reserve police officer?
18 A. In the Decani police station.
19 Q. Now, can you give the -- I'd like you to give the Trial Chamber a
20 picture of your daily work there as this -- as a reserve police officer.
21 Firstly, can you give us details of any uniform that you had, any
22 weaponry that you had, and what your day-to-day duties were and where you
23 carried them out?
24 A. The uniform was a blue camouflage police uniform. I carried a
25 police pistol and an automatic rifle. Normally, we stood guard outside
1 the police station, or we escorted vehicles on their way to Pec to fetch
2 some food, that sort of thing, nothing more specific than that.
3 Q. The blue camouflage uniform, did that signify anything or was
4 that the normal uniform for police reservists?
5 A. This was the normal working uniform for police reservists.
6 There's the ceremonial one and there's the working uniform, and this was
7 the everyday working uniform.
8 Q. Did other reserve policemen like you also have blue camouflage
10 A. Both the reserve and the active-duty.
11 Q. Okay. Thank you. I want you to turn your mind to the -- to the
12 conditions along the roads in your area at about the time that you became
13 a reserve policeman. How many principal roads lead into Decani and from
14 what towns?
15 A. There's one from Pec, there's another to Djakovica, and a third
16 to the Visoki Decani monastery. There are three roads all converging
17 right in the middle of Decani.
18 Q. All right. Let's focus on the Decani-Djakovica road. After you
19 became a -- or, indeed, even before you became a reserve policeman but in
20 the early -- in the first quarter of 1998, can you describe to the
21 Trial Chamber the -- the relative ease of travel along that particular
22 road; in other words, was it hard? Was it difficult? Were there
23 problems? Or was it a normal commute?
24 A. At the time, one couldn't travel to Djakovica. When I became a
25 reserve police officer, it wasn't possible to take that road to Djakovica
1 or to Pec for that matter.
2 Q. So that situation applied at some point at least in -- from early
3 May onwards, because that's the earliest you could have joined the
4 reserve police; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge as to the ease of travel along
7 that road before you became a reserve policeman? Were problems being
8 encountered there?
9 A. I don't know about the one to Djakovica. I know about Pec. I
10 would travel from Streoc to work, and when I was told to go back to
11 Decani to shut the post office, two or three days later one could no
12 longer go either to Pec or, indeed, to Djakovica. It was two or three
13 days after I'd shut the post office in Streoc that it was no longer
14 possible to go to Djakovica or to Pec. I know this because the -- there
15 were two police officers working in Djakovica, they were in my brother's
16 flat because they were unable by this time to go to work, so they stayed
17 in my brother's flat.
18 [Prosecution counsel confer]
19 MR. DI FAZIO:
20 Q. Well, who -- how did you conclude that it was no longer possible
21 to travel along these roads, in particular the one from Decani -- well,
22 the two roads from Decani north up to Pec and south down to Djakovica?
23 How do you know that it wasn't possible to travel?
24 A. Well, it wasn't. You couldn't drive there. Men who were on
25 their way to Djakovica by bus or by car, they were unable to go there.
1 They stayed behind in Decani; likewise, those who were working in Pec
2 couldn't go there because they had come under fire from the surrounding
3 hills previously. It wasn't safe for them to go there; therefore, they
4 all just decided to stay in Decani.
5 Q. Okay. And let's be a bit more specific. You've started to tell
6 us what the problems were and you've mentioned them; you've mentioned
7 vehicles coming under fire from the surrounding hills. Did that
8 situation apply to both of those principal roads northwards to Pec,
9 southwards to Djakovica?
10 A. I don't know about Djakovica. At the time, I never tried going
11 there, never tried taking that road. As to Pec, yes, that was the case.
12 It wasn't possible to go because they were firing from the hills behind
13 Ljubuski and behind Streoc. I know that some of the passengers along
14 that road were wounded: Momo Antic; Miloje, who was a police officer and
15 whose surname I can no longer remember. Some people were wounded;
16 therefore, the road wasn't safe on account of the firing. I'm talking
17 about the way to Streoc and to Pec.
18 Q. Who provided you with this information? How do you know these
19 things? And tell us, was this something that you were told personally or
20 from the media, something that you observed with your own eyes, so the
21 Trial Chamber understands how it is that you know these matters?
22 A. Well, I know about Miloje and Momo Antic being wounded from them.
23 They, themselves, told me. When they were back from Pec, Momo had been
24 wounded and he lost one of his legs, and Miloje, too, told me the story
25 himself; therefore, those were first-hand accounts.
1 Q. Yes. And were there any other sources of information?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you read newspapers or listen to the radio at that time?
4 A. We didn't get any newspapers at the time.
5 Q. What about when you joined the reserve police, did you receive
6 any information or intelligence at that point concerning travel along
7 these two principal roads, northwards and southwards of Decani?
8 A. Well, we were mostly busy with security in and around the police
9 station. And one could often hear conversations between duty commanders,
10 chiefs, or police commanders passing by, as sometimes they would sit
11 together on a bench outside the police station and then they said it
12 wasn't safe to go to Pec or to go to Djakovica. And it wasn't advisable
13 to take those roads because one knew very well that Serbs were taking
14 those roads and driving along those roads. Nobody walked, and one knew
15 exactly who was using the cars and who was driving down those roads.
16 Q. Did you receive any information as to who was firing on vehicles,
17 the firing that you've described so far?
18 A. Well, people were saying that it was the terrorists who were
19 doing those things.
20 Q. Now, when you use that expression "the terrorists," are you
21 referring to any particular organisation?
22 A. I mean certain Albanians who were involved in war operations.
23 Q. And did you understand them to have a -- these certain Albanians
24 involved in war operations as having a name?
25 A. In Albanian, they called them the Kosovo Liberation Army and in
1 Serbian, too.
2 Q. Okay. After you became a policeman, did you travel along either
3 of those roads or, in fact, any other road in the immediate area of
4 Decani? So think about the two main roads leading northwards and
5 southwards, but also other smaller roads. Were you able to do so?
6 A. Yes, yes, I took the one to Pec. But you could only go if you
7 were being escorted by an armoured vehicle, a whole convoy, an armoured
8 vehicle with a machine-gun mounted on top for safety reasons.
9 Q. Did you ever visibly -- did you ever see such convoys?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And were they convoys of police or army or other organisations?
12 A. At the outset they were police convoys. There would be a police
13 vehicle followed by three or four civilian ones, and then again at the
14 rear, there would be a police vehicle. Later on there were military
15 convoys travelling like that, too.
16 Q. Are you describing a mixture of --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith?
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I'm wondering whether or not Mr. Di Fazio
19 would be so kind as to orient us once again as to the time-period that we
20 are in? I'm not clear as to whether or not we're in the first quarter
21 after -- I'm just not sure what time we're in at this point.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that's a good suggestion, I'll --
23 MR. EMMERSON: Before Mr. Di Fazio responds to that invitation --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. EMMERSON: -- I've listened with care to the answers which
1 have been given in relation to time.
2 I wonder if the witness might remove his headphones for just a
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but let's first ask him whether he understands
5 any English.
6 Mr. Markovic, do you understand the English language?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 MR. EMMERSON: It doesn't matter terribly much.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Mr. Di Fazio has slipped, and I'm not complaining
11 at this stage, into -- into leading on from the witness's answers to
12 putting leading questions as to time. And certainly if Your Honours have
13 had an opportunity to read the witness's statement, there may be some
14 uncertainty as to the premise from which Mr. Di Fazio's questions have
15 been proceeding as to time.
16 And so rather than, if I may say so, immediately accede to
17 Mr. Guy-Smith's invitation for Mr. Mr. Di Fazio to orient the witness, a
18 question of timing is, in fact, a matter that needs to be explored in
19 cross-examination by reference to the witness's statement.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio --
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: With the --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: With Mr. Emmerson's intervention in mind, I'll
24 withdraw my suggestion.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: But it remains a very good suggestion and I'm
1 going to adopt it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you're not adopting the suggestion, but
3 you're adopting a new approach?
4 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm going to ask --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
6 MR. DI FAZIO: -- a simple question, if Your Honours please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. Yes.
8 MR. DI FAZIO:
9 Q. You've described cars and police vehicles travelling together.
10 Can you tell us when this -- when you became aware of this? When in the
11 year 1998 you became aware of this?
12 A. In early May.
13 Q. And this phenomenon of civilian cars and police cars travelling
14 together -- sorry, that's my question. Were they civilian vehicles and
15 police vehicles?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You've described this as occurring in May. What about June, did
18 this take place in June 1998?
19 A. Yes, in June as well. Someone had to drive to Pec to get
20 food-supplies. It was impossible to go to Decani; it was closed off
21 entirely. Not a single civilian vehicle was allowed to leave. There had
22 to be some sort of an escort, military or police, in order to go to Pec
23 and get some food-supplies.
24 Q. Thank you. Food supplies for whom?
25 A. For the residents of Decani.
1 Q. I want you to describe that process, please, the obtaining of
2 food-supplies for the residents of Decani. Tell the Trial Chamber how it
3 was done and the sort of vehicles used and the sort of persons who
4 participated and when it was done.
5 A. I don't know exactly because I never personally joined one of
7 Q. How did you become aware of these convoys?
8 A. Other people told me. They said they'd be on their way to join
9 the convoy to Pec to get some food-supplies.
10 Q. And these other people who told you, were they civilians or
11 police officers or soldiers or a combination of those groups?
12 A. Civilians.
13 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one clarification. You said you do not
14 know about these convoys when food was transported, at the same time you
15 said earlier when you were asked whether you were able to use the two
16 roads leading northwards and southwards, you said: "Yes, yes, I took the
17 one to Pec, but you could only go if you were being escorted by an
18 armoured vehicle, a whole convoy, an armoured vehicle with a
20 That suggests that you once were in such a convoy and your later
21 answer suggested that you were not. Could you please clarify?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I was never involved in any
23 of the food convoys. I had been involved in a convoy before.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
1 MR. DI FAZIO:
2 Q. What convoy was that, going from where to where; and if you can
3 possibly give a time, please do?
4 A. I can't remember.
5 Q. Now, what can't you remember, where you were going -- where this
6 convoy was headed to, or the time, or both?
7 A. The time. It was a convoy for Pec.
8 Q. Can you tell us if it was a time when you were a postman or a
9 time when you were a reserve policeman?
10 A. Policeman.
11 Q. And can you describe the convoy -- what vehicles were in this
12 convoy to Pec that you participated in?
13 A. There was an armoured vehicle; some APCs, two or three, I think;
14 but no civilians that time.
15 Q. And can you recall what the purpose of this particular travel
17 A. No.
18 Q. What -- did you ever achieve -- I withdraw that.
19 Did you hold any rank in the reserve police when you joined --
20 when --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.
22 Now you travelled once only, I do understand, with some APCs and
23 armoured vehicles to Pec, and you have no recollection why you went to
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: When did you return from Pec?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The same day, three or four hours
4 JUDGE ORIE: What did you do in Pec?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was escorting that convoy. It
6 was a convoy on its way to Pec. For example, the police commander is off
7 to Pec, and then he takes ten men along to escort him. We spent the time
8 in an armoured vehicle. When we get to Pec, we just guard the armoured
9 vehicle, he goes into a building, he comes out of the building, and we
10 all go back to where we'd come from.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So your function was to escort others in that same
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, that's clear.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
17 Q. What rank did you hold in -- if any, in the reserve police?
18 A. I did not actually have a rank. I was just an ordinary police
20 Q. Right. Thank you. Now, you've described the conditions for
21 travel to a certain extent to Pec. Earlier in your evidence today, you
22 also mentioned another road, which was the Decani to the monastery -- or
23 a monastery, nearby monastery road. Do you recall that evidence?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Just so we are clear about this, explain to the Trial Chamber
1 which particular road you were talking about?
2 A. It leads from Decani to the monastery, then it goes past the
3 monastery and ends somewhere in the mountains. At the time, it was safe
4 to go as far as the monastery but not further into the mountains.
5 Q. How far is the monastery from Decani?
6 A. 2 kilometres.
7 Q. And which way does it go? Westwards? Northwards? Southwards?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Did you travel that road yourself in the period of time after you
10 became a reserve policeman?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber how it was that you concluded
13 that that 2-kilometre stretch of road was safe to travel?
14 A. Well, there was a police unit stationed near the monastery, and
15 there was daily travel along that road; people even walked there.
16 Q. After you became a reserve police officer, did you observe any
17 roadblocks anywhere?
18 A. Yes. Along the road to Pec, lining the road on either side, but
19 this was daytime when it was possible to take that road. There were
20 ploughs along either side of the road with spikes on the downside. If
21 you place something like this across a road, there is no way a vehicle
22 can pass, not a vehicle with normal wheels like a passenger car and not
23 even an armoured vehicle with caterpillars.
24 Q. Well, let's get a bit more detail about that. Firstly, you said
25 that you saw these devices with spikes lining the road to Pec when it was
1 possible to take that road. Was that during your time as a reserve
2 police officer?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. So at some point during the time that you were a police
5 officer -- reserve police officer, it was still possible to travel to
7 A. In convoys, yes.
8 Q. And do you know anything about the origin of these devices with
9 spikes? How did they come to be there, in other words?
10 A. I heard stories about Albanian terrorists putting them there.
11 Q. From whom did you hear stories?
12 A. The police.
13 Q. Your colleagues?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In what manner? In formal conversation, briefings, or informal
16 chats, overhearing it? How did you know about that, the origin of these
17 devices with spikes?
18 A. Informal chat.
19 Q. At the time --
20 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry. I'm sorry, the witness's testimony, this
21 is page 26, line 23, if it's correctly translated, is that what he was
22 describing were ploughs by the side of the road, and Mr. Di Fazio has put
23 it several times that these were devices. I wonder if he might clarify
24 with the witness what it is he's describing.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: I can do that.
1 Q. You overheard that. The way it came across to us in English was
2 that these were ploughs as pulled by beasts of burden to -- or tractors
3 to dig-up the earth. Is it a plough that you're talking about?
4 A. Not exactly ploughs, harrows, which is a square implement, and it
5 has spikes coming out. These are normally between 15 and 20 centimetres
7 Q. Right.
8 A. The size must be about 1 and a half by 1 and a half metres, and
9 there are spikes coming out.
10 Q. This device, plough or harrow, or whatever it was, is it a
11 farming implement or made from a farming implement?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. This farming implement in its original form, does it have spikes
14 on it or not?
15 A. Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: There's one clarifying question. Do I have to
17 understand that you turn it upside down in order to give the spikes the
18 direction that would stop cars; whereas, you would use it the other way
19 if used as an agricultural tool?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 MR. DI FAZIO:
22 Q. Right. So it's a pure agricultural implement just being used for
23 a different purpose; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. All right. Now, apart from this thing with spikes on
1 it, did you see or become aware of anything else that impeded traffic
2 along the roads going out of Decani?
3 A. I saw that on the road to Pec; however, on the road to Djakovica,
4 when it became passable, there were trenches on both sides of the road.
5 They started from the place called Livade and stretched as far as Prilep
6 on the left-hand side. On the right-hand side, since it is a little bit
7 towards the hill, they also went as far as Prilep, more or less, some 3
8 kilometres, let's say.
9 Q. At the beginning of your answer, you said you saw these trenches
10 on the road to Djakovica, when it became passable. When was it not
11 passable and why?
12 A. I heard stories that it wasn't possible to travel down this road.
13 The people who had attempted to do so were fired upon and had to go back,
14 and at Crnobreg, which is 1 kilometre from Decani, there were roadblocks.
15 I, myself, didn't see them and I don't know how they looked like.
16 Q. Okay. We'll get to your source of information in just a moment,
17 but firstly, just to clarify your understanding. You said there were --
18 at Crnobreg there were roadblocks. Was it your understanding that these
19 were Serb police or Serb army roadblocks or some -- or not -- that was
20 not the case?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Well, if -- who manned these roadblocks, as far as you were
24 A. The Albanian terrorists.
25 Q. Now, again your source of information. Who told you about these
1 roadblocks, at Crnobreg, manned by Albanian terrorists? Do you know how
2 you became aware of it?
3 A. I heard it from my colleagues in informal conversations. They
4 tried to get to Djakovica.
5 Q. And do I -- can the Trial Chamber understand that, therefore, you
6 obtained this information after you became a reserve policeman or
7 called-up as a reserve policeman?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How long were you a reserve policeman for?
10 A. Until I left Kosovo in 1999 -- June of that year.
11 Q. All right. We know approximately when you started becoming a
12 reserve policeman. These roadblocks at Crnobreg, about how long after
13 you were initially called up did you first become aware of -- from
14 conversations of the block at Crnobreg?
15 A. Right immediately on the same day or maybe one or two days later.
16 Q. Thank you. Just go back now to the villages around Gornji Streoc
17 and in the area close to Djakovica, in particular the area to the east of
18 the road going northwards towards Pec and the road going southwards
19 towards Djakovica. In early 1998, were there smatterings of Serbs living
20 in various villages around that area?
21 A. Well, yes, there were. I don't know exactly, very few. There
22 were some houses and households of people living in the area, but very
23 few of them. In the municipality of Decani, there were approximately 700
24 of them in total. Those who lived in town were living on the street
25 leading to the monastery. So most of them lived there.
1 Q. When you say who "lived in town," which town are you referring
3 A. Decani.
4 Q. Thank you. What about in the villages around Streoc, were there
5 Serbs living in those villages?
6 A. No, there were two houses in Papracani or, let's say, three.
7 There was one household in Gornji Streoc -- actually, it was a house
8 and -- but nobody was living in that house since 1996.
9 Q. Okay. And what about other villages further to the south, were
10 there Serbs living in those villages?
11 A. Yes, there were.
12 Q. How do you know that, because you knew the people concerned or
13 from some other source?
14 A. Well, my family was originally from Dasinovac, and he moved to
15 Decani. So we know very well the area around Streoc, Rznic, and villages
16 like that.
17 Q. When you were still postman in Gornji Streoc, were there Serb
18 families residing in Dasinovac, as far as you're aware?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did they remain there?
21 A. No, they didn't.
22 Q. What happened to them?
23 A. They were expelled by the local Albanians.
24 Q. Well, now what information do you have to suggest that? Why do
25 you say that?
1 A. When I say that, I specifically mean to Milka and
2 Milovan Vlahovic and their family. I don't know when it happened
3 exactly, but they remained in the village of Gornji Ratis.
4 Milka Vlahovic is actually my father's sister, and I know that they never
5 left the village alive, and they were killed. Their bodies, as far as
6 Milovan was concerned, was found in the canal of the Radonjicko Lake.
7 Q. Thank you. And other than the villages of Gornji Ratis and
8 Dasinovac, do you know of any other villages where Serbs -- which Serbs
10 A. Yes, Ljubarda.
11 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber how many Serbs were resident
12 in Ljubarda in early 1998?
13 A. I can try and remember how many households there were. About
15 Q. And what happened to those households, those Serbian households?
16 A. They all moved to Decani.
17 Q. Again, how do you know this? What's the source of your
19 A. They told me in Decani.
20 Q. Can you remember when you were told this?
21 A. At the time when they were leaving, and we met in Decani --
22 Decani is a small place, so you just cannot avoid running into people and
23 communicating with them.
24 Q. Okay. That's -- I understand that. But what I'm really
25 interested in is when you received this information about the people from
1 Ljubarda. Firstly, was it in 1998?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Secondly, was it when you were employed as a postman, or when you
4 were employed as a reserve police officer?
5 A. As postman.
6 Q. And can you -- did the people you spoke to provide any reason as
7 to why they had left Ljubarda?
8 A. They told me that they left because of lack of safety, that the
9 Albanian terrorists were passing through the village and shooting. They
10 didn't feel safe, and they had to leave.
11 Q. And can you remember the names of any families from Ljubarda that
12 you spoke to -- who provided this information to you -- or, indeed, the
13 individuals who provided the information to you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Who was it?
16 A. The son of the late Slobo Radosevic, Stanisa; his mother, Rosa;
17 there was also Kojo Stijovic; and Vesko Stijovic. Those were the people
18 who had been beaten up in their own village.
19 Q. Do you know -- did you know, in 1998, two gentlemen named
20 Milos Radunovic and Slobodan Radosevic?
21 A. Yes, those were my neighbours in the village.
22 Q. Okay. Which village?
23 A. Dasinovac.
24 Q. Your expression "neighbours," is -- I want to clarify that.
25 Weren't you living in Decani, as I understood your evidence? So how can
1 you call someone who lived in Dasinovac a neighbour?
2 A. I used -- was living in Decani, but I spent my summers with my
3 grandparents in the country. Milos and Slobo were next-door neighbours
4 of my grandmother, that is my mother's mother.
5 Q. What was her name, your mother's mother, your grandmother?
6 A. Mileva Bojcic.
7 Q. So you had -- when did you first meet -- when did you first know
8 Milos and Slobodan; in other words, was that as a child, a teenager, a
9 young man?
10 A. When I was a child.
11 Q. What happened to them in 1998?
12 A. Milos and Slobo were killed by the terrorists in 1998. I heard
13 that from his son, and later on, in an informal conversation, I heard it
14 in front of the police station where we stood guard.
15 Q. Thank you. Were their remains ever found?
16 A. Yes. I took part in the search for their remains, and I
17 discovered the place where they were buried.
18 Q. What do you mean you discovered the place? Did you actually find
20 A. When I said "discovered," I mean that there were eight of us. An
21 Albanian youngster acted as a guide. He had previously been arrested
22 while he was transporting weapons, and he told the police that he had
23 seen two dead bodies by the road to Dasinovac. We took him with us and
24 asked him to show us this exact place. It's located at the very entrance
25 to Dasinovac village. I think it's called Vidiste.
1 Q. Okay. And there were eight of you. You mean eight policemen?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was there anyone in particular in charge of this search-party?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Who was that?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. Well, was it you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So where were you prior to getting to Dasinovac and finding these
10 bodies? Were you in Decani or somewhere else?
11 A. In Decani. We set off from Decani. It was possible to go to
12 Dasinovac. We took a vehicle called Pinzgauer, it's an all-terrain
13 vehicle, not an armoured vehicle. When we reached approximately the
14 place shown to us by this youngster, there are two roads, a main road and
15 a local road. And he explained to us that on the right-hand side of the
16 road he saw these two bodies. We started searching, and at the very
17 beginning of this local road was a kind of mound on the road. And there
18 was a boot protruding, the tip of the boot was protruding from the
19 ground. I started digging with my foot first, and I saw the leg. I
20 tried to pull it out; I couldn't do it. And after we dug out this
21 location, we found Milos's and Slobo's remains.
22 Q. Okay. And following this discovery, did other police services
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you remember who turned up, whether -- I'm talking about
1 officials now. Was it just police or other officials?
2 A. I think that forensic technicians were there as well, but we were
3 all uniformed because there was still shooting going around and they
4 conducted the on-site investigation.
5 Q. And that happened on -- what I want to know is: All that
6 happened, did it, on the day that you first went there and first saw this
7 boot sticking up out of the ground?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you remember when it was that this happened? If you can't
10 remember, say so, but if you've got a fix on it, at least the month or if
12 A. No. As for the time, I cannot remember because the timing then
13 didn't mean anything to me so I really have difficulty remembering dates.
14 Q. Okay. The Albanian chap, did he travel up with you, with the
15 police officers?
16 A. Yes, he did.
17 Q. And was it summer?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. I'd like you just to have a look at a clip, just a short clip
20 that I want to show to you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: It needs a number, I take it, or is it in evidence
23 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, it's a portion of an
24 exhibit that is already on our 65 ter list. It's 866, but it's a portion
25 of that. So what I -- what I propose is that I show it to the witness,
1 and depending on what -- yes, P39. And then that should become -- that
2 should become -- the excerpt should become in itself a new exhibit.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If we're talking about P39 -- P39, I take it,
4 is the transcript of the ...
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, I --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand you suggest that we give it the
8 number P39.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, I misunderstood. It's 866. What I
10 propose is to use a portion of it. That portion I would then propose,
11 depending on what happens, to then tender it into evidence, if necessary
12 and if the Trial Chamber agrees.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the whole of the video is disclosed
14 to the Defence --
15 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- and that you're now just selecting one portion.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Just one minor caveat, if I may. It may be that
19 when the video appears on Your Honours' screen that there is a date or
20 time reference appearing in the frame. There are solid reasons to
21 believe that that date or time reference is in error. So insofar as it
22 may be appearing on the screen --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. EMMERSON: -- it is not something which is independently
25 accepted as correct.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: That's fine. That's not a problem. Other
3 evidence --
4 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will ignore for the time being --
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- any date or time reference on the video.
7 Madam Registrar, that would then be P ...?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be P39, marked for
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: There's no sound with this either, if Your Honours
13 [Videotape played]
14 MR. DI FAZIO: I will want to show it again.
15 Q. First of all, did you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Any idea where that place is that was depicted on the video-clip?
18 A. This is the place that I described to you a minute ago.
19 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'd like you to look at it again, please.
20 [Videotape played]
21 MR. DI FAZIO:
22 Q. Now, do you see that gentleman?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Have you -- can you shed any light on who he might be?
25 A. That's the Albanian chap that went with us.
1 Q. Do you know what his name is?
2 A. No, I don't.
3 Q. Thank you. And just finally could you please --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Please, Mr. Di Fazio --
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- in order to enable others to follow the evidence,
7 you asked about a person which was shown at the time 36 minutes 17.5
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I'm grateful, Your Honour, for that.
10 Q. Just one more question: The fellow has his hands behind his
11 back. Was he cuffed, or do you know if he was handcuffed that day or
13 A. I suppose he was.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Could we just continue playing the ...
16 [Videotape played]
17 MR. DI FAZIO:
18 Q. The gentleman in the blue suit, do you know -- have you got any
19 idea who that might be? Only tell us if you're sure.
20 A. No.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that clip
23 into evidence.
24 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated]
25 JUDGE ORIE: But before we admit it into evidence, this portion
1 is part of a longer video or DVD, I take it. If you cut out this
2 portion, will the timing remain the same as we see it on the screen,
3 because if you --
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Those with a better grasp of technology can
5 probably tell me if I'm wrong, but I understand this is just a copy made
6 of that segment, so it stands and exists by itself.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes. If that's the case; if it doesn't
8 automatically start numbering at zero. But I noticed that it started, as
9 we saw it, on 36 minutes 09.6, that the question in relation to the first
10 man was at 36.17.5 and that the man in the blue suit was 36.36.1. Is
11 that the very end of this, because otherwise -- is this the very last
12 portion --
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Of the excerpt?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: No, it continues for another few seconds and then
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, could you please play it and that we have the
18 final time as well?
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, we can do that.
20 [Videotape played]
21 JUDGE ORIE: It was 36 approximately 44. So we now know that
22 it's an excerpt of some 34 seconds.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, I note the time. I have one very
25 minor topic to go, and then Mr. Emmerson will be able to start his --
1 JUDGE ORIE: I then suggest if you can finish that in a couple of
2 minutes that we finish the examination-in-chief before the break.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. DI FAZIO:
6 Q. Witness, you know Lake Radonjic, don't you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. In early September, did you go there?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. And was -- I don't think it's in dispute in this case. That was
11 after the discovery of a number of bodies in the area. Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And did you go there as part of your police duties?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. What were your duties at the lake on the day that you went there?
16 A. Securing the scene and helping out wherever necessary.
17 Q. All right. Now, did you carry out any duties as a technician,
18 conduct any tests, any scientific tests, or examinations of any sort?
19 A. No, I just stood guard.
20 Q. And what about collection of bodies, did someone do that?
21 A. In this specific case at Radonjic Lake, there was a group of Roma
22 people and we helped them whenever needed.
23 Q. You said that you went there and you carried out guard duties.
24 You've now -- so we know about that. We know that you carried out guard
25 duties at the lake.
1 Secondly, you say that there were Roma people there and that you
2 helped them whenever needed. What were the Roma people doing and what
3 sort of help were you giving?
4 A. There were some forensic technicians and some other policemen,
5 too. There was a large group of people trying to identify the bodies and
6 collect evidence, but the Roma people were the ones who picked up the
7 bodies from the Radonjic canal and from the lake. We gave them a hand.
8 There's a steep slope there, and we gave them a hand with that. They
9 pulled the bodies up that slope and placed them in body-bags.
10 Q. Now, you've been using the expression "we," "we gave them a
11 hand," does the Trial Chamber understand, or should it understand, that
12 you, you personally gave the Roma people a hand in getting the bodies up
13 the steep slope?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. So apart from helping the Roma people take the bodies up
16 and apart from guard duties, did you carry out any other jobs or tasks at
17 Lake Radonjic at the scene?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.
22 As far as Exhibits P39, I do understand there are no objections.
23 It cannot be uploaded into e-court. Since there's no text, there's no
24 transcript to be uploaded in e-court, so the only thing that remains is a
25 DVD which will be provided to Madam Registrar containing this clip.
1 Before we have a break ...
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I've forgotten to say that a surrogate sheet is
4 uploaded in e-court, so that's what people will find when consulting
6 Before we break, Mr. Markovic, I have one question for you. You
7 worked as a reserve police officer. Was this reserve police -- were all
8 ethnicities working in that reserve police, or was it -- or was one of
9 the ethnicities over-represented?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Back in 1998, there were Serbs,
11 Bosniaks, and no other group.
12 JUDGE ORIE: There were no Albanians working in that police
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not in the reserve police.
15 There were Albanians working in the active-duty police.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Did I understand your testimony well that
17 quite a portion of the population of that area were Albanians?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, do you know why these Albanians were
20 not present in the reserve police force?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can assume why.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if it's just an assumption, but I take it it's
23 based on something, tell us why you think you would know the reason.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, knowing the mentality of the
25 people I lived with, quite a large portion of them were not willing to
1 work with the police, reserve or active-duty. Some of those who were
2 willing to were not allowed to because of their safety and security.
3 JUDGE ORIE: When you say "the people I lived with," are you
4 referring to specifically Albanians?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both Serbs and Albanians. When I
6 was still working as a postman in Gornji Streoc, there were no Serbs
7 there. Six days a week from 8.00 in the morning until 3.00 in the
8 afternoon, the only language I used throughout my service there was
9 Albanian. I was on exceptionally good terms with the people living
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said: "Some of those who were
12 willing to were not allowed to because of their safety and security."
13 Could you be a bit more specific?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, normally if someone wants to
15 work and some other people want to stop him, they threaten him saying
16 that they would kill their brothers or family members. That is most
17 effective way of stopping someone who's about to do something against
18 your will.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And does this apply to all ethnicities, or would
20 that be specifically for Bosnians or Serbs or for Albanians?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For Albanians.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you give us an impression on how -- what
23 the percentage was of Albanians working in the regular police force, not
24 the reserve police but the normal police?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were very few in terms of
1 percentage, perhaps 1 or 2 per cent, back in 1998, that's what I'm
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, how would you -- how did you become a
4 reserve police officer? Would you apply for it? Would you ...
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. There's such a thing as a war
6 assignment, and you get assigned. It's the recruitment office that's in
7 charge of sending you to the police or the army.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I think you said you became a reserve
9 police officer as early as, I think you said, 1990 or 1991. At that time
10 did you apply for -- to become a reserve police officer?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: It's obligatory? Is that --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for these answers.
15 We'll have a break of 25 minutes. We resume at 20 minutes past
17 --- Recess taken at 3.54 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 4.23 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, do I understand well that you'll be
20 the first one to cross-examine the witness?
21 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Mr. Markovic, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Emmerson, who's
24 counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
2 Q. Mr. Markovic, when you were describing the time you spent in
3 Dashinoc during the recovery operation where the bodies of Slobodan and
4 Milos -- Slobodan Radosevic and Milos Radunovic were recovered, you told
5 us this, you said: "As for time, I cannot remember because the timing
6 then didn't mean anything to me, so I really have difficulty remembering
8 Is that generally correct, Mr. Markovic? Are you bad on dates?
9 A. I didn't keep track of time back then. It's very difficult for
10 me to be specific about time, time-lines in general, I do remember the
11 specific events but time-lines are difficult. I don't have a good head
12 for that.
13 Q. Yes, well, I just wanted to clarify that with you because you've
14 been taken through your evidence on the basis of certain assumptions
15 about the times that things happened, and I want to see if I could
16 clarify some of that with you, first of all.
17 You agreed to a suggestion put to you by Mr. Di Fazio, based on
18 an earlier answer that you had given, that you continued to work as a
19 postman until early May when you became called up as a reserve police
20 officer. Do you remember saying that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And quite a lot of the events you have described to us were then
23 pin-pointed to that date, because you've told us that the three roads to
24 Decane -- of the three roads to Decane, two of them were closed from two
25 days after that, I think.
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. And that you first heard of roadblocks pretty much as soon as you
3 were called up. Do you remember saying that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Well, let's see if we can jog your memory a little about the
6 dates. In your witness statement in this case, Mr. Markovic - and I
7 don't need to take you to it at the moment - in your witness statement
8 that you made in 2002, you gave two different dates for the date on which
9 you became an active reserve police officer and stopped working for the
10 post office.
11 First of all, you said it was in March, and that's for those
12 following page 2, paragraph 2, and then later you said it was in
13 mid-April, that's page 3, paragraph 3.
14 Now, can you help us, please. Could it have been as early as
15 March that you were called up and closed the post office?
16 A. As I said, I can't remember the specific date. I think it was in
18 MR. EMMERSON: I see Judge Hoepfel's brow furrowing.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Well, Mr. Emmerson, when there is two dates; the
20 first date closing of the post office, and one month later being called
22 MR. EMMERSON: I'll read the passages from the statement. The
23 first one reads: "I was from March 1998 until I left Kosovo on the 15th
24 or 16th of June, 1999, working in the police, so I was from March 1998
25 working in the police."
1 And the second paragraph I referred to reads: "About mid-April,
2 I was summoned to work as a police reservist."
3 So I think it is clear that the witness in the statement was
4 referring to two different dates for the same event.
5 Q. Can you be sure now whether it was March or April or do you not
6 really know?
7 A. As I said, time means nothing to me.
8 Q. So it -- could it be either date?
9 A. I think it was in April, but I'm not certain.
10 Q. Were you aware of a major fire-fight that had been launched by
11 Serb police forces in Gllogjan on the 24th of March in which a police
12 officer called Otovic was killed?
13 A. I'd heard of it, yes, and I knew that Otovic had been killed.
14 I'm not sure about the date, though.
15 Q. Well, if you take it from me that the date was the 24th of March,
16 was it before or after that incident in Gllogjan that you were called up
17 as a reservist?
18 A. After that.
19 Q. And can you tell us roughly how long after that?
20 A. No.
21 Q. I just want to see if I've understood the answers you --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, could you please also explore the
23 relation 24th of March and closing the post office and moving into --
24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, of course.
25 Q. Do you know whether you stopped delivering as a postman before or
1 after the 24th of March?
2 A. I can't remember.
3 Q. And if I've understood it correctly, there was an interval, you
4 told us, of about a month between you ceasing to deliver post and you
5 being called up full time as a policeman. Is that right?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, wouldn't it be more clear to the
7 closure of the Streoc police -- post office when I think the witness said
8 he moved to Decane and there had his --
9 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, that's why I used the expression that I did,
10 but it may be that it wasn't as clear as it might be.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. EMMERSON:
13 Q. Again, so that we're clear and in answer to the Judge's question,
14 you told us that there was a date on which the post office in Strellc was
15 closed and that you worked for a time after that from the post office in
16 Decane. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And was the interval between the two about a month, between the
19 closure of the post office in Strellc and the time when you first began
20 working full time as a police officer, was it about a month?
21 A. About a month, 20 days, up to a month.
22 Q. And just specifically to deal then with the Judge's question, do
23 you remember now whether the closure of the post office at Strellc
24 happened before or after the incident in Gllogjan when the police officer
25 called Otovic was killed?
1 A. I can't remember.
2 Q. Very well. Now, you asked -- you were asked and answered some
3 questions by the Judge just before the break about the circumstances in
4 which you came to be called up. And you said: It wasn't a choice, it
5 was obligatory. You get assigned, and I think you said it was a war
6 assignment. Is that right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Again, so that we're clear, could anybody be assigned, or did you
9 have to have been on the register as a reserve police officer beforehand?
10 A. I don't know that. I know there is a list of reserve policemen,
11 and this is determined by the military post number or perhaps by the
12 military police, either way. I'm not sure.
13 Q. Let me put the question to you a slightly different way. Were
14 many of your friends and relatives also drafted in to the police during
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. I'll ask you a little bit about those in a few moments. You told
18 us that you were armed with a pistol and an automatic weapon. Is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And I think I'm right in saying that all reserve policemen who
22 were called up were armed with pistols and automatic weapons. Is that
24 A. No.
25 Q. That's not correct?
1 A. No.
2 Q. So why were you chosen to have a pistol and an automatic weapon,
3 as far as you understood it, Mr. Markovic?
4 A. I have no idea.
5 Q. Well, you must have discussed it, surely, with your colleagues
6 who weren't armed, you've told us. How did the decision come to be made
7 about who had automatic weapons, who had pistols, and so forth?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Are you saying that there were reserve police officers who had no
10 weapons at all?
11 A. No.
12 Q. I -- that's an ambiguous answer, I'm afraid. Can you answer me
13 in this way: Is it your evidence that there were some reserve police
14 officers who had no weapons? Are you saying some of them had no weapons
15 at all?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Again, I'm sorry, you'll have to answer in a sentence, please.
18 Can you please put it in your own words?
19 A. I did not know of any police officers with no weapons. There may
20 have been some, but none that I knew of.
21 Q. I see. I thought you told us a little while ago that not
22 everybody had automatic weapons. Is that right, not all the police
23 officers in the reserve police had automatic weapons?
24 A. Yes, yes. Some had semi-automatic weapons.
25 Q. I see, I see. And the AK-47, what is that, an automatic or a
2 A. Automatic.
3 Q. Is that what you had?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. But no idea why you were given one?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Is it your evidence that you never used it?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Again, please, the answer's ambiguous. Is it -- are you telling
10 the Tribunal that you, yourself, never fired your automatic weapon at all
11 at any time? Is that your evidence?
12 A. No, I did use it.
13 Q. Could you tell us when you used it, please?
14 A. I think it was in Kodralija when we came under fire. We were
15 trying to pull out the bodies of four policemen from Novi Sad, and I used
16 the weapon in self-defence on that occasion.
17 Q. Did you kill anybody?
18 A. Not as far as I know.
19 Q. Actually, when was that?
20 A. I can't remember.
21 Q. Is that the only occasion on which you've discharged your
22 automatic weapon?
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, may I just ask one question?
25 You mentioned the place which does not appear clearly on the
1 transcript. Was it Kodralija or -- which I find on my map as being quite
2 near to Pozar, or was it somewhere else?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Kodralija.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Is that between Pozar and Rznic?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. EMMERSON:
9 Q. Would that have been in 1998 or 1999?
10 A. I think 1999.
11 Q. But you're not sure?
12 A. No, I'm not.
13 Q. Did you ever enter that area during 1998?
14 A. I passed through, when we were on our way to look for Slobo and
16 Q. Is that the only time you went into that area during 1998,
17 Mr. Markovic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What about your pistol, did you ever have occasion to use that?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Can I just put a general question to you for a moment,
22 Mr. Markovic. You are aware, aren't you, that there was during 1998
23 fighting going on in various villages in western Kosovo between the
24 Yugoslav Army and the police on the one hand, and armed Albanian groups
25 on the other. You were aware that there was fighting going on in 1998 at
1 various points?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Full-scale battles?
4 A. I don't know about full-scale.
5 Q. Well, are you aware that there was a major Serbian offensive, for
6 example, in the second half of May in the area of western Kosovo that you
7 were living in?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And what about the beginning of August when police forces
10 over-ran Gllogjan and Irzniq and ousted the KLA, were you aware of that?
11 A. I heard of it, but I was not involved.
12 Q. I see. Can I ask you, were you aware from all the conversations
13 you'd overheard outside the police station that it was the policy of the
14 police and particularly paramilitary units that after a village had been
15 bombarded to go in and conduct mopping-up exercises, as they're
17 A. What do you mean "mopping-up"?
18 Q. Burning people's houses, stealing their property, shooting their
19 livestock, setting their haystacks on fire, and killing any civilians
20 that remained behind, that sort of mopping-up. Are you aware of that?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you ever take --
23 A. Not the -- about withdrawals.
24 Q. Sorry, I don't think I understood that answer. Could you repeat
25 it, please?
1 A. You asked me about withdrawals when they were withdrawing and
2 then killing on their way. I never heard anything of the sort.
3 Q. I see. Did you ever take part in any such operations where you
4 entered villages after they had been over-run by Serb military forces?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Well, we'll come back to that, if we may.
7 Your younger brother Rade, you told us he was a company manager.
8 He was also in the reserve police, wasn't he?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I'm going to read to you a passage from his witness statement,
11 Mr. Markovic, because you're lying to this Tribunal now, aren't you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Your brother Rade is about a year younger than you, isn't he?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you both share the same father, whose name is Radovan, don't
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Let me read to you a passage from a witness statement that he
19 made and signed to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 10th of May, 2002.
20 He says: "I am a high school graduate and attended two years of
21 post-high school education at an economist's school. I did an obligatory
22 year of service with the JNA in 1984 and 1985. I was a communications
23 operator. I was a reserve police officer in Decane in 1991, and from
24 1997 until approximately four months before the OSCE came to Kosovo. My
25 duties in 1998 were guarding the police station in Decane. I wore a blue
1 uniform and was armed with an AK-47 automatic rifle. I was never
2 involved in active operation against the KLA."
3 So he was stationed, he says, outside Decane police station.
4 What's your explanation, Mr. Markovic?
5 A. Between 1991 and 1997, he was occasionally with the reserve
6 police forces. He guarded the station, just like I did, and then he
7 contracted lung disease, some form of tuberculosis, and as result of his
8 illness, in 1998, he definitely was not a member of the reserve police.
9 Q. First of all, you gave me an unequivocal answer a few moments ago
10 that he was not a reserve police officer. But leaving that aside, let me
11 read you the passage again: "My duties in 1998 were guarding the police
12 station in Decane. I wore a blue uniform and was armed with an AK-47
13 assault rifle," his duties in 1998, Mr. Markovic.
14 Now, you're lying to the Tribunal about this, aren't you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. The date of that statement was the 10th of May, 2002. Now, your
17 statement to the Prosecution was also made on the 10th of May, 2002,
18 Mr. Markovic. Do you remember being at the same building with your
19 brother when the statements were made?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson -- Mr. Markovic, earlier Mr. Emmerson
22 asked you whether your brother also was in the reserve police force. He
23 said he was, wasn't he; and you said no. Now you say that during certain
24 intervals he was. Why did you say no earlier on this question of
25 Mr. Emmerson's?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Mr. Emmerson asked his
2 question, I was thinking about 1998 and 1999. My brother was a reserve
3 policeman between 1991 and 1997, until he got ill; after that, he wasn't
4 in the reserve police force.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Markovic, you made a solemn declaration that
6 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and
7 I'm emphasising the whole truth. If Mr. Emmerson asks you whether your
8 brother was in the police force, then if he ever was, you should have
9 told us that he was, although perhaps at another moment. May I invite
10 you to be as complete as possible in your answers.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
12 MR. EMMERSON:
13 Q. Mr. Markovic, can you think of any reason why your brother should
14 tell the Prosecutor that he was working outside Decane police station
15 with an AK-47 in 1998?
16 A. I know that he was working in 1997, but I'm sure that he wasn't
17 working in 1998.
18 Q. As you've told us that you're not very good on dates, is there a
19 possibility that you might be mistaken or are you saying that your
20 brother must have said something to the Prosecutor that wasn't true?
21 A. He may have been in January or February 1998, but I don't think
23 Q. We're moving forwards a little now. He may have been in January
24 or February 1998, but you can be categorically sure he wasn't in March.
25 Is that your evidence?
1 A. No. What I want to say that we were not together in the reserve
2 police, the two brothers were not there. When I was in the reserve
3 police, he wasn't; that's what I wanted to say and that is why I'm sure
4 that in 1998, when I was a reserve police officer, he wasn't.
5 Q. Of course we don't really know when you started, do we? You
6 don't know when you started, do you?
7 A. It should have been sometime in April, towards the end of April.
8 I'm not sure.
9 Q. I see. Now, bearing in mind what the Judge has just told you
10 about making sure that you don't give us inaccurate information while
11 you're under oath, I'm going to ask you about some other people. And
12 just so that it's fair to you, Mr. Markovic, we have records. Let me ask
13 you about some other friends of yours. Slobodan Markovic, was he a
14 police officer?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you see him with weapons?
17 A. He was working in Djakovica, not in Decani, and I suppose he had
18 a weapon.
19 Q. Well, he wasn't a traffic police officer, for example, with white
20 gloves during this period of the conflict, was he?
21 A. I don't know. I know that he was a traffic policeman in 1997.
22 Q. Did you have traffic policemen while the roads were blocked, as
23 you've described, and you had to drive along convoys? Were there traffic
24 policemen at that point, generally?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, the witness said: "I know he was a
1 traffic policeman in 1997."
2 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I understand.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And you are referring to a part of the testimony
4 which is not in 1997?
5 MR. EMMERSON: No, I'm asking about 1998. During 1998 --
6 JUDGE ORIE: But it's confusing the way you put it.
7 MR. EMMERSON: I'm so sorry.
8 Q. During 1998, were there traffic policemen with white gloves
9 directing the traffic along the roads?
10 A. You mean directing the traffic at intersections?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. No.
13 Q. So whatever he was in 1997, you certainly wouldn't have expected
14 to see Slobodan Markovic directing the traffic in 1998, would you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. No. Is he related to you [Realtime transcript read in error
17 missing word "you"], Slobodan Markovic?
18 A. Yes, he is.
19 Q. Is he your cousin?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Rade Vlahovic, do you know him?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. He was a police officer, wasn't he?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Was he in the regular or the reserve police?
1 A. Regular.
2 Q. And did you see him in Decane during 1998?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Ljubisa Radunovic, this is the son of Milos Radunovic, whose body
5 you were involved in the discovery of. Ljubisa Radunovic was an old
6 friend of yours, wasn't he?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And he was a police officer, wasn't he?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you see him during 1998?
11 A. No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, may I draw your attention to page 59,
13 line 9. There "he" appears where it's not very clear to me to whom you
14 referred when you said "is he" --
15 MR. EMMERSON: No, I think the question, in fact, is
16 mistranscribed. The question was: "Is he related to you,
17 Slobodan Markovic?"
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then if that's understood and I take that --
19 MR. EMMERSON: And he replied: "Yes, he is."
20 "Q. Is he your cousin?" "Yes."
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, then, it's clear to me.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. EMMERSON:
24 Q. Predrag Stojanovic, do you know him?
25 A. If they call him Dragan, yes, but Predrag Stojanovic, no.
1 Q. Well, Predrag and Dragan are the same person, according to the
2 evidence that we have heard. You know Dragan Stojanovic, yes?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And he was a police officer, wasn't he?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Did you see him during 1998?
7 A. No. You're asking me about the policemen who were working in
8 Djakovica while I was in Decani.
9 Q. I see. And Veselin Stojanovic, he was a police officer, his
10 brother, wasn't he?
11 A. No.
12 Q. I see. Stanisa Radosevic?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. When was Stanisa Radosevic called up to the police,
15 or was he a permanent police officer?
16 A. I think he was mobilised.
17 Q. When was he mobilised?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. Well, was he there at the same time as you in Decane? Because
20 you've told us you saw him in Decane.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. So is that yes, he was mobilised at the same time as you?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Come on, Mr. Markovic. You've told us in your evidence already
25 that you spoke to him in Decane, because it was a small place and you
1 couldn't help running into people and talking to them, and he's a
2 long-term friend of yours, isn't he? He lived next door to your
3 grandfather. Was he in the reserve police at the same time as you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Why did it take you so long to answer a straight
6 question, Mr. Markovic?
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Well --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --
9 MR. DI FAZIO: -- the witness --
10 MR. EMMERSON: I withdraw the question. I withdraw the question.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because if you look at the question "at the
12 same time," it's not totally unambiguous what happened at the same time.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Well --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed. The last question now was a bit
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. EMMERSON:
18 Q. So he was mobilised at the same time as you. Does that mean that
19 he was mobilised during April?
20 A. I don't know.
21 Q. When --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, it seems that the witness makes a
23 distinction between serving at the same time and being mobilised --
24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I understand.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- at the start of entering, and that seems to
1 create the confusion.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. EMMERSON:
4 Q. When you were called up, was he already a police officer in the
5 reserve police?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. Very well. Well, roughly how long after you were called up can
8 you tell us for sure that he was in the reserve police?
9 A. I know for sure that he was in the police when we discovered his
10 father's body.
11 Q. Yes. Thank you. So by the time you went to Dashinoc in
12 September, he was already a police officer?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Now, I'm just going to ask you a question generally,
15 Mr. Markovic, because Stanisa Radosevic has given evidence that he was
16 never in the police or the reserve police. You have given evidence that
17 your brother wasn't, despite the fact that he's made a statement that he
18 was. I want to ask you: Is there somebody who told you that you
19 shouldn't be telling the Tribunal the truth about who was in the police
20 and who wasn't?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did -- you tell us about this Serbian man who came to visit you
23 just before you were due to give evidence. Did you talk to him?
24 A. What Serbian are you asking me about? Nobody came to caution me
25 or to talk to me.
1 Q. I apologise. I withdraw the question. I made a genuine mistake
2 on my part?
3 Do you know what the letters PJP stand for?
4 A. Special police unit.
5 Q. Some police officers were selected for this special police unit,
6 weren't they?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And could you be selected for the special police unit from the
9 reserve police as well as from the full-time police?
10 A. As far as I know, no.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Can we please look at D14, please, on the screen.
12 Q. This is a list, Mr. Markovic, of officers who in March 1999 were
13 being paid as members of the PJP?
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if Your Honours please, it's not.
15 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, it is.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm -- must have a faulty memory. I thought this
17 was a creation of -- can the witness take off his --
18 MR. EMMERSON: He speaks English.
19 JUDGE ORIE: He speaks English.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: I thought it was a creation.
21 JUDGE ORIE: The one doesn't contradict the other. Let me just
22 have a --
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no problems in Mr. Emmerson suggesting that
24 these are --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- I think this is a discussion we shouldn't
1 have in the presence of the witness.
2 MR. EMMERSON: Well, let me ask the questions without describing
3 what the list is. We -- all of us know what the list is --
4 MR. DI FAZIO: I have absolutely no quarrel with that. I
5 understand perfectly.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Let me put it differently then, Mr. Di Fazio.
7 Q. Mr. Markovic, the list of names in front of you are names that
8 appear on lists of individuals who were in the pay of the PJP in March
9 1999. It's not a complete list, of course, but these names all appear in
10 the records of the PJP. And if we just go down the list to see those you
11 recognise. You've told us about Rade Vlahovic. Did you know that he was
12 in the PJP?
13 A. No.
14 Q. What about Stanisa Radosevic?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You've told us that people -- you thought at least people
17 couldn't join the PJP from the reserve police. Let's be clear, was
18 Stanisa Radosevic in the reserve police or the full-time police?
19 A. As far as I know, he was a reserve police officer.
20 Q. Slobodan Markovic, your cousin, what about him?
21 A. I don't know. All these men are from Djakovica and I don't know
22 about them. I only see Danilo Stijovic here on this list who is
23 completely unknown to me.
24 Q. Very well. The others are -- you know all of them, do you?
25 A. Rade Vlahovic, yes; Stanisa Radosevic, yes; Zeljko Radosevic, I
1 think so, Zeljko Radosevic, I think he is originally from Montenegro if
2 that's the person I'm referring to but I'm not sure about him; Slobodan
3 Markovic, my cousin; Momcilo Markovic, I don't know who that is; Predrag
4 Stojanovic, if that's Dragan I know him; Veselin Stojanovic, I didn't
5 even know that he was a policeman; Ljubisa Radunovic, I know him, but I
6 don't know that they were members of the PJP.
7 Q. Very well. Of the people on that list, Mr. Markovic, one is your
8 cousin and two are your childhood friends from Dashinoc, Stanisa
9 Radosevic and Ljubisa Radunovic. Is that correct?
10 A. No. Rade Vlahovic is my first cousin, so a very close relative.
11 Slobodan Markovic is a distant relative, and Stanisa Radosevic and
12 Ljubisa Radunovic were my neighbours from the village, and Predrag
13 Stojanovic I know through my brothers.
14 Q. Let me ask you a little bit more generally about the period of
15 March to April 1998. Now, you've told us that there was a time when two
16 out of the three roads into Decane were blocked. Do you remember giving
17 us that evidence?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, in your witness statement - and for those following, it's
20 page 4, paragraph 5 - you said that those two roads were blocked during
21 March. Is that correct or wrong?
22 A. I told you that timing didn't mean anything to me. I don't know
23 whether it was in March or in April. I think April.
24 Q. But you also said in your statement, page 4, paragraph 5, that at
25 the time that occurred, there were only 15 policemen in Decane. Was that
1 the truth?
2 A. Roughly speaking.
3 Q. I see. And then you and others were mobilised, and those numbers
4 swelled to 130. Is that correct?
5 A. 130 is way too much, around 100.
6 Q. Well, again, I'm taking this from your own witness statement,
7 page 5, paragraph 5, in which you said there were a hundred police
8 officers stationed at the children's camp in Decane and 30 at the police
9 station. Is that right or wrong?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So it would be 130 in Decane?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Why did you tell us it was way too high?
14 A. I have no idea.
15 Q. Are you trying to paint a misleading picture to the Tribunal of
16 the strength of the forces in Decane?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you know there were internationals in the area from the 24th
19 of March onwards?
20 A. No.
21 Q. I'm going to suggest to you - and I'm putting this to you from a
22 report filed by the British military attache to Belgrade who was in
23 Decane on the 24th of March - that there were between 8 to 10.000 MUP
24 officers in western Kosovo, including 5 to 700 members of the PJP in
25 March 1998. Can I ask your reaction to that, please?
1 A. I know nothing about that.
2 Q. Let me put something else to you, Mr. Markovic. The same
3 gentleman has filed a statement in which he says that the PJP were
4 supported by - and I'm quoting him - "imported thugs who were brought in
5 to stir up trouble so that the MUP could step in and sort out the
7 Can you think who he might be referring to "as imported thugs who
8 were brought in to stir up trouble" in March 1998 in the area where you
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know who General Bozidar Delic is?
12 A. Yes, I saw him at the Milosevic trial.
13 Q. You were following that on the screen, were you?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. So you know that he was at the time, in March, a colonel
16 commanding the 549th Brigade in the area where you were a police officer.
17 Is that correct?
18 A. No.
19 Q. No -- what's not correct about it?
20 A. I don't know that he was a colonel.
21 Q. I see. You knew --
22 A. And I didn't know him then.
23 Q. You've told us you followed his evidence in the Milosevic trial.
24 You knew he was the commander of the Yugoslav Army then in the area where
25 you were a police officer. Is that correct?
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. Well, let me ask you what you do know about it since you were
3 following his evidence. Did you hear --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, wouldn't it be a good idea that
5 whenever you ask whether the witness knows something, whether he knew it
6 at the time or whether he learned later about it.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Because it might create some confusion.
9 Please proceed.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I entirely take the point.
11 Q. When you were following his evidence in the Milosevic case,
12 Mr. Markovic, did you hear him give evidence that on the 24th of March
13 there were 400 Serb security forces in the little village of Dubrave?
14 Did you hear him give that evidence?
15 A. No, I watched the broadcast occasionally, only when I had time; I
16 didn't watch it all the time.
17 Q. Well, since you were listening to the conversations of people
18 going in and out of the police station from whenever it was you were
19 called up, did you get a picture of how many policemen had been involved
20 in what happened in Gllogjan?
21 A. No.
22 Q. I see. Let me ask you something else. I think it's right, isn't
23 it, that you do accept - or at least you did when you were interviewed by
24 the Prosecution a few days ago - that at the time you were called up,
25 whether that was in March or April, special units and the VJ were already
1 starting to arrive in the area around Decane?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you describe for us, please, the sort of strength of numbers
4 that you saw arriving at the time that you were called up?
5 A. No.
6 Q. What did you mean when you told the Prosecution special units
7 were arriving at the time you were called up?
8 A. A tank unit, guns, things like that.
9 Q. You weren't referring to paramilitary police units, Mr. Markovic?
10 A. As far as I know, there were no paramilitary police units.
11 Q. Well, we'll come back to that in a few moments. So one thing we
12 can be clear of is that the Yugoslav Army was arriving at the time you
13 were called up, because that's what you've just told us. Is that right?
14 A. Approximately a day or two later, but that's about it.
15 Q. You see, I may have misunderstood you, but a few lines ago I
16 thought you told me that at the time that the roads were blocked off,
17 there were only 15 policemen in Decane. Is that still your evidence?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But then you told us a little earlier that the roads were blocked
20 off a few days after you were called up. Were the Yugoslav Army there
21 with their special units when the roads were blocked off?
22 A. I don't know.
23 Q. Can you confirm, please, that throughout the war during 1998 and
24 1999, you personally never saw a single KLA member in uniform?
25 A. Not in full uniform, but in pieces of uniform; part of it was
1 military, part civilian. But I never saw a full uniform.
2 Q. I'm going to read to you from your statement page 5, paragraph 4,
3 and see if that jogs your memory.
4 You said: "I never saw any UCK member in uniform, even in 1999,
5 until we left Kosovo. All of them wore civilian clothes and they were
6 not acting like an army."
7 Does that accurately reflect your evidence?
8 A. Yes, but I just amended it by saying that sometimes I saw them
9 wearing a combination of uniform and civilian clothes.
10 Q. The VJ, though, that you saw arriving at the time that you were
11 called up, they were acting like an army, weren't they?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. I just want to ask you this on that topic: Internationals in the
14 area report that VJ vehicles were being painted blue to make them look
15 like police vehicles, but that one could see the green paint underneath
16 to try and pretend what was going on was policing rather than military
17 action. Did you see that, vehicles of the VJ which had been painted
19 A. No.
20 Q. When, if we can just get some clarity about the roads being cut
21 off -- have I got the position correctly, and I'm going from your
22 statement now, the impression that you give is that the Serb civilians
23 inside Decane were effectively stranded for a period of time. Is that
24 the position?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Effectively cut off from the outside world for a short while?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was that before or after the 24th of March, the Gllogjan
4 incident, I should say. Was it before or after the day when Otovic was
6 A. It was after my withdrawal from the Streoc post office and my
7 arrival in Decani. I don't know about the incident at Glodjane.
8 Q. Can I ask you then as somebody who was on such good terms with
9 the Albanians in the area where you were working in the post office, were
10 you aware of what had happened in Drenica, that is in Likoshan and
11 Prekaze on the 28th of February and the 5th of March? I see you're
12 furrowing your brow. Did you know what had happened?
13 A. That is quite far from Decani. No, I do not know.
14 Q. You hadn't heard or read in the papers that 80 Albanians,
15 including women, a pregnant woman, the elderly, and a number of children
16 had been shot by the police?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Is this the first time you've ever heard of what happened in
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is that really the truth, Mr. Markovic?
22 A. You mean the attack on Adem Jashari's house.
23 Q. Yes, exactly, so you know where Adem Jashari lives, don't you?
24 Or where he lived before he and his family were wiped out? You knew
25 where they lived?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you hear about the attack on Adem Jashari's family, at the
4 A. At the time, I don't remember. I did hear something about that,
5 but I don't know what exactly or when. I am familiar with the incident,
7 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that 80 Albanians were killed over
8 a period of seven days when the police moved into those villages?
9 A. I'd heard of people being killed, but I wasn't familiar with the
10 exact figure.
11 Q. All right.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Markovic, earlier Mr. Emmerson did put a
15 question to you about whether you heard about the -- let me read it.
16 What had happened in Drenica, that is in Likoshan and Prekaze on the 28th
17 of February and the 5th of March. And you said: "That's quite far from
18 Decani, no, I do not know." Whereas a couple of lines further down where
19 Mr. Emmerson asked you whether it's really the truth that this is the
20 first time you hear of what happened in Prekaze, then your answer is:
21 "You mean the attack on Adem Jashari's house?"
22 So it gives the impression, since you come up with this name
23 spontaneously, that you knew something of what happened in Prekaze, of
24 what you earlier said, That's far from Decani, no, I do not know. It
25 seems like you did know something about it, and even if you would not
1 have known about details you should have told us at that time, No details
2 had been mentioned yet, that you were aware or that you'd heard about
3 what happened or that there was an attack on Adem Jashari's house.
4 Because you first denied any knowledge, whereas a few lines later it
5 turns out that at least you have a spontaneous recollection of the name
6 of the man whose house was attacked. Or have I misunderstood you?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everybody knew about the attack on
8 Adem Jashari's house, but I thought the question was in reference to
9 something special. I thought he was asking something specific about --
10 but I have no reason to conceal any knowledge of that or any other
11 incident. I am familiar with the incident involving Adem Jashari's
12 house, yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Markovic, then your answer to that first
14 question should have been, Are you asking for something specific or are
15 you asking about what we all knew, that is the attack on Adem Jashari's
16 house. That would have been the correct answer. If you are unclear
17 about whether any specific matter or any general knowledge is asked for,
18 please ask for clarification.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
20 MR. EMMERSON:
21 Q. What I'm exploring with you, Mr. Markovic, is what might have
22 been the reasons why people wanted to block access into the villages on
23 the east side of the main road, you see. Now, you've told us everybody
24 knows about what happened in the Jashari incident. Perhaps we can go
25 back to the questions I asked you a minute ago. Were you aware - leaving
1 aside numbers for a moment - that the victims included women, a pregnant
2 woman, the elderly, and a number of young children shot in cold blood.
3 Did you know that?
4 A. No, I didn't. I knew that some people had been killed, but I
5 didn't know about any pregnant women.
6 Q. Did you know there were children and the elderly amongst the
8 A. I'd heard stories about children being among the victims, yes.
9 Q. Thank you. And did you know that people had been taken out under
10 arrest and simply lined up and put to death by the police?
11 A. No, I didn't.
12 Q. It must have been a matter of great concern to you as a police
13 officer to hear that children were among the victims of police actions,
14 wasn't it?
15 A. Nobody likes it when a child gets killed, do they.
16 Q. And was there discussion amongst the police at Decane about
17 making sure nothing like that ever happens again?
18 A. I don't know. I wasn't with the reserve police at that time. I
19 assume so.
20 Q. I see. Now, you told us -- I'm sorry, you said in your witness
21 statement, Mr. Markovic, that there came a time when the roadblocks were
22 removed. And I just want to be clear, you also at another point in your
23 statement described it as a point in time at which the terrorists
25 Can you tell us, please, when and how the Serb forces regained
1 complete control of Decane?
2 A. One could travel to Decani. There was a certain area through
3 which one could pass, and then the police and the military arrived, and
4 this area became ever larger. I'm not familiar with the exact date when
5 Decani was taken over or regained.
6 Q. Let me put something to you and ask you to comment on it, all
7 right, about whether it's accurate or not. All right. In another case
8 which is going on in this building at the moment, the Prosecution allege
9 that at around Easter, that is roughly mid-April, a VJ tank unit attacked
10 Decane. Is that correct? Do you remember there being fighting with a VJ
11 tank unit attacking Decane around Easter time?
12 A. I don't remember that.
13 Q. Was there fighting in Decane at all in the first half of 1998?
14 Any shooting inside the town or shelling?
15 A. No fighting. There was firing on Decani from outside. A
16 police officer named Slavko Tomasevic was wounded. I think there was
17 shelling, too, but I can't remember exactly whether it was in 1998 or
18 1999. Two shells landed just next to the petrol station in Decani.
19 Q. Were you aware at any time during the first half of 1998 of the
20 VJ launching a military attack on the Albanian population of Decane?
21 A. No.
22 Q. I want to pick up the evidence that you've given us about the VJ
23 units that arrived at around the time that you were called up. I
24 mentioned earlier to you the British military attache to Belgrade. I
25 simply want to put this to you: The records that have been filed by that
1 individual for the period around the 24th of March record that there were
2 VJ artillery units around Decane defended by the JSO.
3 Now, let me ask you, first of all, do you know what those
4 letters, JSO, stand for?
5 A. Special operations unit.
6 Q. They are the special forces of the Serbian State Security
7 Service, aren't they?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And their commander, I suggest, is an individual whose name will
10 be well-known to you called Franko Simatovic, otherwise known as Frenki.
11 Is that a name you've heard?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And this unit was known colloquially as "Frenki's boys," wasn't
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. They'd previously been known as the "Red Berets" when they were
17 involved in the conflict in Croatia and Bosnia, hadn't they?
18 A. I'd heard about that on TV.
19 Q. You know that Frenki Simatovic is indicted in this Tribunal for
20 war crimes committed with that unit in Bosnia and Croatia, don't you?
21 A. I'd heard of that, too.
22 Q. The JSO were stationed just outside Decane, weren't they?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Where were they stationed?
25 A. In this holiday resort for children.
1 Q. The one that Stanisa Radosevic worked at as a security guard? Is
2 that the one?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When did they arrive?
5 A. I don't know.
6 Q. Try for us, please, Mr. Markovic. When did they arrive, before
7 or after you were called up?
8 A. I don't know.
9 Q. Very well. Going back to all the information you hear about --
10 from police officers of senior rank wandering in and out of the police
11 station, did you hear anything about the tactics and techniques that the
12 JSO used to use on Albanian villages or not?
13 A. No, I didn't.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, may I ask for clarification on one of
15 your questions? You said the records that have been filed by that
16 individual, for the period around the 24th of March, record there were VJ
17 artillery units around Decani defended by the JSO. Is that Decani was
18 defended by the JSO against VJ artillery units, or I might not have fully
19 grabbed --
20 MR. EMMERSON: No, the suggestion is that the JSO were guarding
21 and defending the VJ artillery units.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Now it's clear to me. Thank you.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: And I think it's clear also, isn't it,
24 Your Honours, from the answer the witness gave to the proposition put by
25 Mr. Emmerson that this was happening at least by 24 March.
1 MR. EMMERSON: I don't know if it is clear at all. Mr. Di Fazio
2 is more than welcome to re-examine on it, if he wants to clarify.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let's proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
4 MR. EMMERSON:
5 Q. Again, I want to put to you that the JSO had a base next to
6 Decane monastery. Would that be the same -- roughly the same area as
7 where you're describing this camp?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Let me ask you a little bit about other deployments that you are
10 aware of. The VJ, and in particular the 549th Motorised Brigade under
11 Bozidar Delic, you knew, didn't you, that they were stationed on three
12 large hills immediately adjacent to Lake Radoniq?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Are you saying that you know that they weren't, or you don't know
15 one way or the other?
16 A. I don't know.
17 Q. Well, I'm going to suggest to you, you could hear the shelling
18 coming from Donji Bites?
19 A. I'm not sure that one could, actually. It's a large distance
20 separating Radonjic Lake and Decani, about 10 kilometres.
21 Q. I see. Well, let me put it to you this way: Since you followed
22 General Delic's evidence in the Milosevic case, were you watching at the
23 point in which he told the Tribunal that he had forces stationed on those
24 three hills from April 1998?
25 A. I don't remember that.
1 Q. You're certainly not in a position to suggest, are you, that
2 there were not Serb forces in the area around the lake throughout 1998?
3 A. I know nothing about the army.
4 Q. What about the military police battalion, because they were
5 deployed there as well, I suggest, in the area of the lake? Are you
6 aware about them, or is that also outside your knowledge?
7 A. I know nothing at all about the military.
8 Q. Do you know anything about the deployment of the JSO when they
9 took part in operations at all?
10 A. No.
11 Q. So you, presumably, can't tell us one way or the other whether
12 the JSO were conducting operations to the east of the Peje-Pristina road
13 during 1998?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Let me ask you a little bit about your own involvement,
16 Mr. Markovic, and in particular let's ask you, if I may, about some of
17 the answers you've given about your visit to Dashinoc or Dasinovac when
18 the bodies of Slobodan Radosevic and Milos Radunovic were found.
19 Now, we have heard evidence from Stanisa Radosevic and also from
20 (redacted), that the Albanian houses in Dasinovac had
21 been burnt down by the time those bodies were discovered. Can you tell
22 us, please, when you first went to Dasinovac?
23 A. It was then, when we found the bodies, Slobo and Milos.
24 Q. How long after the Serb troops had entered the area were you on
25 the scene?
1 A. I don't know when the Serb troops entered. We just went of our
2 own accord and unaccompanied.
3 Q. You've told us, in the evidence you gave in answer to
4 Mr. Di Fazio, that you went in a Pinzgauer. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you said: "We were all uniformed because there was still
7 shooting going on." This is page 36, line 7. Was there still shooting
8 going on around the area of Dasinovac when you were there?
9 A. Yes, sporadically.
10 Q. And you could hear that, could you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So tell us, please, were the Albanian houses burnt down?
13 A. I wasn't able to see from where I stood, and I didn't go that far
14 into the village. The first house near the spot where we were is at a
15 distance of about 300 metres, and that is Marko Vukicevic's house.
16 There's plenty of houses once you get past that one, but it was
17 impossible to see from our position.
18 Q. Could you see smoke rising from the haystacks?
19 A. I don't remember. I wasn't paying attention to that sort of
21 Q. Which route did your Pinzgauer take to get to Dashinoc/Dasinovac?
22 A. The Ljubarda road.
23 Q. So Lubarda to where, Pozhare?
24 A. Yes, Pozar, the canal, Ljubarda and on to Dasinovac.
25 Q. And along the way, Mr. Markovic, did you see houses on fire?
1 A. Houses on fire, I don't remember. There were houses that were
2 burned to the ground, but I'm not sure if any were actually ablaze as we
3 were passing. Well, the first thing -- the first thing that needs to be
4 said is that there weren't that many houses lining that road to begin
6 Q. Just tell us about the houses that you saw that had been burnt to
7 the ground. Where were they?
8 A. The Decani-Luka-Pozar road, although there aren't that many
9 houses there. In Pozar, over Kordolija way, there are several houses,
10 and on the left-hand side of the road a handful of houses. Other than
11 that, there are maybe two or three houses lining that road, so there
12 weren't that many to begin with.
13 Q. Leaving aside the houses you yourself saw, did you hear, either
14 then or afterwards, from other police officers about the number of
15 Albanian houses that had been put to the torch?
16 A. I never asked.
17 Q. Isn't that something that would be a matter of concern to you,
18 Mr. Markovic, as a police officer?
19 A. I don't think I understand what you mean.
20 Q. Do you know who burnt those houses down?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Would it be a matter of concern to you if you knew it was the
23 police? Would that bother you as a police officer, Albanian houses being
24 burnt down?
25 A. Of course, that would be an unpleasant thing.
1 Q. Well, it would be unforgivable, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it be
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You see, I want to suggest that you know full well who was
5 involved, Mr. Markovic, because you took part in the looting of houses
6 and the setting of them on fire in Dasinovac. And may I make it clear,
7 I'm not intending to tell you something amusing. I suggest to you that
8 you took part?
9 A. You are just not right.
10 Q. Did you see Stanisa Radosevic in the area around Dasinovac, when
11 you were there?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Well, since you've told us that you saw him frequently in Decane
14 and discussed things with him, did you discuss the fact that you had been
15 there, when his father's body was discovered, with him?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did you tell him about that and did he tell you that he'd been to
18 Dasinovac, as well, around that time?
19 A. I don't remember him telling me about him being -- having been in
20 Dasinovac around that time.
21 Q. You see earlier on when I asked when it was that Stanisa
22 Radosevic was called up to the reserve police, you told us that the only
23 thing I can be sure of is that he had been called up by the time those
24 bodies were found in Dashinoc. What was it that made you so sure, that
25 by then, he was in the police?
1 A. I'm sure that he was there. Why? I don't know. It's just
2 something that is etched in my memory, him being in the police at the
4 Q. Well, try and help us, why is that etched in your memory, if he
5 wasn't there and he never told you --
6 MR. DI FAZIO: He said he doesn't know. You can read it: "Why?
7 I don't know."
8 MR. EMMERSON: I'm in Your Honours' hands.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you first clarify what exactly is etched in
10 his memory.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
12 Q. What is it that's etched in your memory, Mr. Markovic?
13 A. You asked me if I could remember, with any degree of certainty,
14 when Stanisa was in the police. I responded after I thought it out well,
15 that approximately at the time when his father was found, he was in the
16 police, but -- and that is what is etched in my memory.
17 Q. And you saw him about that time, did you?
18 A. Well, Decani is a small place, willy-nilly, you have to bump into
19 people. It just has one street so you have to meet people.
20 Q. Where was he serving his police service?
21 A. I think in Decani. Should be Decani. I'm not 100 per cent sure.
22 Should be Decani.
23 Q. You know him well, do you?
24 A. Pretty well.
25 Q. You're good friends?
1 A. I have to say it to you again. There are 700 Serbs in Decani.
2 Everybody knows everything about everyone, so it's impossible not to know
4 Q. Can you think of any reason why he should tell the Tribunal he
5 was never in the police or the reserve police?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. It's because you and he were together with Novak, Miloica, and
8 Miloica Vlahovic and Goran Vlahovic and Novak Stijovic and Momo Stijovic,
9 looting and burning the houses in the village that your parents had come
10 from, isn't it?
11 A. No. I wasn't with him, and I don't know that they were there.
12 MR. EMMERSON: I'm going on to another topic now. I wonder if
13 that would be a convenient moment.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. EMMERSON: I've got about 20 minutes left.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So where you earlier indicated that one and a
17 half hour would do that --
18 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry it's taking slightly longer but I hope
19 it's not unhelpful.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You've got 20 minutes left then still, Mr. Di Fazio,
21 that remains, then if he -- would you have any questions in
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I think I might but they'll be very brief, and
24 I'll be in a better position in the next half-hour to know. But they'll
25 will be brief, all or no questions at all.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Will there be any questions by other Defence
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very few, if any.
4 MR. HARVEY: I think Mr. Emmerson is covering all of the ground
5 that I would have wished to cover with this witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The reason I'm asking is that, of course, the
7 next witness -- there might be some time remaining, and I have to tell
8 you another thing, that tomorrow we'll start half an hour later than
9 usual, which means that we have not the full time tomorrow, either.
10 Therefore ...
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 MR. EMMERSON: I'm --
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to interrupt ...
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt, just on the
17 question of timing.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Assuming we take something approximating to our
20 normal break, the amount of time that would be left over today would be
21 relatively limited.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. EMMERSON: I do think it's likely that, subject to the views
24 of other Defence counsel, that the next witness's evidence-in-chief could
25 be taken really quite shortly.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. EMMERSON: And so it may be that without trying to put him
3 into the witness box this afternoon, the time could be saved by taking
4 him more quickly tomorrow morning -- or tomorrow afternoon because, as I
5 say, I doubt that his evidence-in-chief or, indeed, his cross-examination
6 will need to take a great deal of time.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, I'm -- the Chamber is a bit
8 hesitant to just give up a half an hour if that still remains. What the
9 Chamber will do during the break, we'll inquire with the Victims and
10 Witnesses Section about the condition of the witness, and we do not
11 exclude for the possibility that we would continue once we've finished
12 with this witness.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Fair enough.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break until ten minutes past 6.00.
16 --- Recess taken at 5.51 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 6.14 p.m.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.
19 MR. EMMERSON:
20 Q. Mr. Markovic, I want to ask you some questions about what
21 happened when you went to the canal area during the period of time when
22 bodies were being removed from the canal. In your witness statement, you
23 say that by the time you arrived at the Lake Radonjic canal, there were
24 what you describe as active policemen and crime experts already on the
25 scene. Do you know the date that you arrived?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you know how long the operation in the canal area had been
3 going on by the time you arrived?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Had some bodies already been removed by the time you arrived?
6 A. I don't think so.
7 Q. So you don't think any bodies had been removed by the time you
9 A. I don't think that they were removed.
10 Q. I see. Were the press there when you got there?
11 A. I don't remember.
12 Q. Do you remember whether there were any international observers
13 there when you arrived or whilst you were there?
14 A. I don't know that they were there.
15 Q. Were you at the canal before or after the recovery of the bodies
16 in Dashinoc -- Dasinovac?
17 A. After.
18 Q. You're sure about that, are you?
19 A. That's how it should be.
20 Q. I don't understand that answer. Are you sure that you went to
21 the canal after you were at Dasinovac, or were you at the canal before
22 you went to Dasinovac?
23 A. No, no, it was after Dasinovac.
24 Q. When you went to Dasinovac, were you aware that there was an
25 operation already going on at the canal?
1 A. No.
2 Q. One of the international observers who went to the canal on about
3 the 9th of September said that as he approached the lake from the
4 direction of Prilep, he could see that many houses in that area, too, had
5 been burned down and that haystacks were still on fire.
6 Again, can you help us with that, please, from your recollection?
7 Did you see houses and haystacks on fire in the area around the canal?
8 A. Well, Prilep is very far from canal. I didn't pass through
9 Prilep, so I can't tell you anything about that.
10 Q. Did you see any Serb forces engaged in operations whilst you were
11 driving to the canal; in other words, en route to the canal?
12 A. I don't think so.
13 Q. How many days did you go to the canal, one day or more than one?
14 A. I've been there only once.
15 Q. And you say there were active policemen there. What do you mean
16 by active policemen?
17 A. I am a reserve policeman and they were active-duty policemen.
18 They were fully employed in the police.
19 Q. This was the end of summer. As far as you can recall, what was
20 the weather like whilst you were there?
21 A. It wasn't cold. It was the usual summer weather, not too hot.
22 It wasn't cloudy, just the usual type of weather.
23 Q. There wasn't any heavy rainfall whilst you were there?
24 A. As far as I can remember, no.
25 Q. Now, you knew, didn't you, that there'd been a major Serb
1 offensive in this area immediately before this?
2 A. No, I didn't know that.
3 Q. Well, Mr. Markovic, you knew, didn't you, that the Serb forces
4 had taken control of Gllogjan and Irzniq and all of those villages
5 immediately before this operation took place?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Why did you think it was safe for police to travel there?
8 A. If somebody tells you you can go there, it's safe, and if that
9 person is from the police station, I presumed that it was okay for us to
10 go there.
11 Q. So you had no idea -- so that we're clear, you had no idea that
12 there'd been fighting in the area between the Serb forces and the KLA
13 around Gllogjan and Irzniq in the villages in that vicinity in the days
14 and weeks before you went to the canal?
15 A. Not at the time. I heard later that there was fighting, but not
17 Q. So you did find out later on that there had been fighting. Is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. How long after you went to Dasinovac did you go to the canal?
21 A. Well, it wasn't a long period. Approximately a week, more or
23 Q. You see, now with the greatest respect, Mr. Markovic, that simply
24 cannot be right. On the records that we have from the recovery
25 operation. If you're right in saying that you were at the canal after
1 Dasinovac, it must have been the next day or within a day or two. Do you
2 think it might have been within a day or two?
3 A. I can agree with you, but I cannot give you a specific
4 time-period. It may have been two days, it may have been a week. I know
5 that these two incidents were close to one another, but I cannot say
7 Q. Because when you were in Dasinovac you told us you heard the
8 sound of gun-fire, didn't you?
9 A. Yes, I said that I heard intermittent gun-fire.
10 Q. So you knew there was fighting going on at the time you were in
11 Dasinovac, didn't you?
12 A. Well, what we heard, then, didn't indicate any heavy fighting; it
13 was just sporadic fire.
14 Q. You see, again, we can listen to this on another occasion, but on
15 the videotape of the canal whilst the recovery operation is going on,
16 it's possible to hear the sound of gun-fire. Now, were you aware of
17 gun-fire whilst you were at the canal?
18 A. I don't understand you. You mean at that particular moment or
19 before that?
20 Q. When you were at the canal on the only day you've told us you
21 went there, did you hear gun-fire whilst you were at the canal?
22 A. I don't remember.
23 Q. Can I ask you, you told us that you learnt afterwards that there
24 had been fighting in the area. Is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can I ask you this: Do you know generally, leaving this incident
2 aside for the moment, do you know generally what the Serb paramilitary
3 forces did with the bodies of civilians that they had killed?
4 A. I don't know.
5 Q. You don't know how they disposed of them?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. Were you aware of a practice of trying to hide the bodies of
8 Albanian civilians --
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Third time. Third time, if Your Honours please.
10 "Do you know generally what the" --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, overruled.
12 Mr. Emmerson, of course we are not seeking five or six times but
13 please proceed.
14 MR. EMMERSON: No, no, it's a different question about a specific
15 practice now.
16 Q. Were you aware of a practice amongst the paramilitaries of trying
17 to hide the bodies of Albanian civilians who had been killed?
18 A. No, I don't know.
19 Q. Presumably by now, though, you're aware, aren't you, from the
20 media, if from nowhere else, that large numbers of bodies of Albanian
21 civilians, including civilians killed in western Kosovo, were shipped to
22 Serbia and hidden there. You know about that, don't you? They're still
23 being repatriated to Kosovo, aren't they?
24 A. I heard about it in the media.
25 Q. Bodies of people that were put into containers and hidden in the
1 Danube. Have you heard about that?
2 A. Yes, I only heard about that in the media.
3 Q. And buried in a mass grave in Serbia and now being repatriated to
4 Albania, you heard about that, too, in Batajnica?
5 A. No, I didn't hear about that.
6 Q. And did you know that they were included --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I'm asking myself what the relevance
8 of --
9 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I'm just moving on to that now.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
11 MR. EMMERSON:
12 Q. Did you know whether anybody had been killed or did you find out
13 whether anybody had been killed by the Serb forces during the September
14 offensive that you've told us that you learned about?
15 A. There were stories circulating around, but nothing concrete. And
16 there were stories that people got killed in the -- during shooting.
17 Q. Did you hear any stories about what was done with their bodies?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you ever visit the economic farm whilst you were conducting
20 this operation, whilst you were present in the canal area? The nearby
21 economic farm, did you yourself go there?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Can I ask you this - and please be very careful with your
24 answer - when you arrived at the canal scene or at any time whilst you
25 were there, did you see fully fleshed bodies floating in the water in the
1 concrete section of the canal?
2 A. I don't remember seeing bodies floating in the water.
3 Q. And just so that I'm clear, I'm talking about the concrete
4 section of the canal, not the ravine lower down, but the concrete section
5 of the canal. I'm suggesting to you that there were fully fleshed,
6 recent bodies in the water in the concrete section of the canal. Did you
7 see those?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Now, you've told us already that, as far as you know, no bodies
10 had been removed from the site. That's still correct, is it?
11 A. Yes, as far as I know, yes.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Madam Usher, I wonder if I could ask you to hand
13 the witness, the Judges, and the Prosecution a copy of this photograph,
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that still needs a number, I take
16 it? It will be uploaded soon on the e-court, I take it?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D31,
18 marked for identification.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I think it should be put on the ELMO.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, please.
21 Q. This is a photograph, Mr. Markovic, taken from a set of
22 photographs that were apparently taken during the recovery operation. Do
23 you see those two bodies floating in the water there? Again, I ask you,
24 having seen the photograph, did you ever see those two bodies?
25 A. No.
1 Q. You see, because, Mr. Markovic, those two bodies didn't show up
2 on any of the post-mortem reports; they simply disappeared, unaccounted
3 for. Can you help us with that at all, as to why bodies so recently
4 killed might have disappeared? Anything you saw that could help us with
6 A. No, I don't know anything about it. I have no idea.
7 Q. Where were the victims of Serb paramilitaries being disposed of
8 in this area, Mr. Markovic?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. When you took bodies out of the area, where did you remove bodies
12 A. We loaded them on a vehicle, and they were driven away to
14 Q. Where did you remove them from exactly? Where did you take them
16 A. From the place where the concrete part of the canal ends and
17 where the part which is not covered with concrete begins.
18 Q. So if I can use this expression, down in the canyon section is
19 where you were removing bodies from?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Was there ever a time when the bodies of men and women were laid
22 out in separate lines at the canal area?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. Can I ask you about these Roma that you've told us about? What
25 was their function?
1 A. You mean specifically in relation to the canal?
2 Q. Well, let's start with that. What was their function in relation
3 to the canal?
4 A. They helped with collecting -- with the collecting of bodies from
5 the canal.
6 Q. Who were they?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Were they police officers?
9 A. No, they were civilians.
10 Q. Was there any particular reason why Roma civilians were being
11 used for this job?
12 A. I have no idea.
13 Q. Were you aware of either those Roma civilians or other Roma
14 civilians being used by the police for other jobs?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Again, just so we're clear, does that mean you're not aware of
17 any other occasion on which Roma civilians have been used by the police?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. It may be a translation problem. I'd just like a clear answer to
20 the question, if I can, please. Yes or no, do you know of any other
21 occasion on which Roma civilians have been used by the police in any form
22 of investigation?
23 A. I'm not aware of that.
24 Q. Yes. Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.
1 Mr. Guy-Smith.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Mr. Markovic, you'll now be further cross-examined by
5 Mr. Guy-Smith, who is counsel for Mr. Balaj.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
8 Q. When you were removing bodies from the canal section of the -- I
9 believe you called it the canyon section of the canal, did you see a car
10 in that area?
11 A. There was a vehicle. There were police cars; I think there was
12 an ambulance as well.
13 Q. I'm referring to a car that was actually in the canyon section
14 itself where you were recovering bodies from, an overturned car.
15 A. It may have been there. I don't remember.
16 Q. You have no memory of that. How much time did you spend down in
17 the canyon section removing bodies, sir?
18 A. About three or four hours.
19 Q. And when you were down in the canyon section for that three- to
20 four-hour period of time, were you walking about the area directly below
21 where the concrete part of the canal ends?
22 A. Yes, in the vicinity.
23 Q. And you're telling us, as you sit here, that you do not recall
24 seeing an overturned car in that area. Is that correct?
25 A. I don't remember. I wasn't paying attention. I don't rule out
1 the possibility that it may have been there, but I don't remember.
2 Q. Do you recall seeing any individuals attempting to pry the car,
3 any large object in that part of the canyon, up from the canyon bottom
4 with large pieces of wood?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
8 MR. HARVEY: I have nothing for this witness. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.
10 Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
11 Q. At the canal, did you see any paramilitaries?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you see any containers?
14 A. I don't know what you mean by "containers."
15 Q. Any containers that might be used to ship goods, materials.
16 A. No.
17 Q. Did you see any fresh corpses on the banks of the canal or the
18 banks of the canyon?
19 A. No.
20 Q. You were answering questions by Mr. Emmerson in which you
21 described that there was some special forces units guarding VJ artillery
22 units. Have you got any idea about when that occurred; namely, that you
23 saw -- namely, that you were aware of the special forces, I think it was
24 JSO, guarding VJ artillery units?
25 MR. EMMERSON: Just before the witness answers, there were two
1 separate parts of the passage which I think Mr. Di Fazio is conflating.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, could you please specifically refer to
3 the answers the witness gave in this respect and guide us to the relevant
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
6 Page 76, if Your Honours please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, just ...
8 MR. DI FAZIO: The witness was asked if he knew what JSO stood
9 for, he agreed that they are special operations units.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: And asked questions about Frenki.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: And then he was asked --
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, but I'm --
15 MR. DI FAZIO: That --
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- mainly seeking his answers because you were
17 referring -- you were asking questions that there was special force.
18 Have you got any idea --
19 MR. EMMERSON: I may be able to help. There were two separate
20 lines of questioning; one was about the special forces guarding the VJ
21 units, and the other one appears on page 78, line 11, in which the
22 witness confirmed that the JSO had a base next to the Decane monastery.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because if you want to put to the witness that
24 he confirmed that these special forces were guarding the VJ artillery, I
25 could not find that in the answers of the witness, but if you would guide
1 me to the place where he confirmed that in his answers. I see the
2 question, the question appears 76 -- 76, line -- well, let's say 8, 9
3 approximately, and the only question was: What does JSO stand for? But
4 I do not see any confirmation at this moment about --
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Well --
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- what was part of the question.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Emmerson's question: "The records that have
8 been filed by that individual for the period around the 24th of March
9 record that there were VJ artillery units around Decani defended by
10 JSO" --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was the question, not an answer. I do not
12 find any confirmation of the witness at this moment on this matter.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll clarify.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Again, I think it might be helpful to Mr. Di Fazio
15 to look at page 78, line 11.
16 JUDGE ORIE: There I find confirmation but not of exactly the
17 same thing.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Obviously, Mr. Emmerson was taking the witness to
19 that point, and we didn't get to the point of getting a clear answer, and
20 that's why --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but then what you did, Mr. Di Fazio, you
22 referred to the answers the witness gave, and the answers do not say
23 anything -- of course, you could elicit answers from him in which you, as
24 a matter, seek further confirmation of what actually was not specifically
25 asked by Mr. Emmerson at the time. But I'm just rather precise in
1 references to --
2 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no, I think Your Honour may be -- obviously,
3 Your Honour is correct and I --
4 JUDGE ORIE: But I do not mind if you want to --
5 MR. DI FAZIO: No --
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- further elicit any information as far as this is
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Perhaps I'll just revert back to a
9 simple and more direct questioning.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. DI FAZIO:
12 Q. Did the JSO guard VJ artillery units, as far as you're aware?
13 A. I don't know.
14 Q. Okay. You were asked about their presence in the area. Were
15 they present in your area at the same time that VJ artillery units were
17 A. I think so.
18 Q. Okay. And can you give the Trial Chamber a time on when that
19 might have occurred, when those special -- the JSO and VJ artillery units
20 were in the area simultaneously?
21 A. I think in May, late April/May, thereabouts. That's at least
22 what I was aware of.
23 Q. Yes. Thank you.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I've got no further
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 Questioned by the Court:
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, I have one question that still puzzles me a
5 bit. You may have understood from Mr. Emmerson's questions that he tried
6 to understand why you were so sure about -- at least -- what's his
7 name --
8 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated]
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- Stanisevic [sic] to be with you in the police at
10 the moment, certainly not later than the moment when you recovered the
11 body of his father. Are you certain that you did not go with him to the
12 place where his father's body was recovered or later go there together
13 with him? Are you sure that he didn't tell you about going there?
14 A. I'm sure that he wasn't with me then, and I'm sure that I didn't
15 go there with him. We did talk about the place where his father's body
16 was found.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Are you also sure that he didn't tell you that he
18 went there?
19 A. I'm sure. I'm sure we didn't discuss that specifically or that
20 he was later there. I certainly don't know about it.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And in view of there being disagreement on when he
22 came to the police force, when he became a police officer, are you
23 certain that he did not -- he was not in any way involved in the
24 operation you described later, that is, at the Lake Radonjic canal area?
25 A. I don't know about that. I don't know if he was there or not.
1 JUDGE ORIE: You consider it a possibility?
2 A. Well, he was with the police, wasn't he? So it was possible, but
3 he was a reserve policeman; and in the light of that fact, I don't think
4 he would have been there.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And you were a reserve policeman, as well?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Why would it be surprising that he, as a reserve
8 police officer, would not be there, whereas you, being a reserve police
9 officer, as well, that you were present?
10 A. I was just guarding the scene. I wasn't part of the actual
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
13 This concludes your testimony, on the assumption that there's --
14 it has not triggered the need for further questions. This concludes your
15 testimony in this court. I'd like to thank you for having come to The
16 Hague and having answered questions of parties and of the Bench. May I
17 ask Madam Usher to escort you out of the courtroom, Mr. Markovic.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE ORIE: To the extent it was not clear yet, the exhibit, I
21 think it was -- let me just have a look. P39 is, because that's not
22 clear on the record, is admitted into evidence.
23 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry --
24 JUDGE ORIE: P39 is the video --
25 MR. EMMERSON: Oh, yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: We discussed it, but there was no clear decision
2 that it was admitted into evidence, and there was no objection.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I would like to tender the photograph.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and that would be, Madam Registrar, we have --
5 the number was already given, that's D -- D31.
6 Any objection?
7 MR. DI FAZIO: No, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And that's admitted into evidence as well.
9 MR. EMMERSON: And, Your Honours, as far as the passage I put to
10 this witness from his brother's witness statement is concerned --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. EMMERSON: -- I've asked Mr. Di Fazio to consider the
13 position. Either the witness statement could be exhibited and admitted,
14 or Mr. Di Fazio can make a stipulation that the passage I put to the
15 witness appears in the witness statement under that witness's signature
16 of the relevant date. So may we -- may we consider that position
17 overnight and we can revert to Your Honours tomorrow.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. EMMERSON: There were three other exhibits that Your Honour
20 left us to respond to.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that was -- I think it was --
22 MR. EMMERSON: P30, D30, and the Andjelkovic notebooks, I think.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Mr. Emmerson, I am aware that this is a pending issue. Neither
25 of them are urgent.
1 MR. EMMERSON: No.
2 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment, we have ten minutes left. Now we
3 can do two things; send the witness away, which is not a very elegant way
4 of dealing with the witness, or to invite him in, to ask him to make a
5 solemn declaration, and that we start at least a couple of minutes, and
6 we explain to him that we are -- I think that is the best way of dealing
7 with it.
8 So, therefore, Madam Usher, would you please escort the next
9 witness into the courtroom.
10 And any protective measures, Mr. Di Fazio? No protective
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Just one point at which --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: -- I'll be going into -- seeking to go into
15 private session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And your next witness would be?
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I'll call Momcilo Antic.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Momcilo Antic.
19 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Antic. Can you hear me in a
22 language you understand?
23 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Antic, before you give evidence in this
25 court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
1 declaration. The text will now be handed out to you by Madam Usher. May
2 I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Antic.
6 Mr. Antic, I would, first of all, like to apologise that you had
7 to wait for such a long time this afternoon. The Chamber is aware that
8 you had a -- that you have a journey behind you which -- well, you might
9 be even a bit exhausted by it. So therefore, we expected, as a matter of
10 fact, that we would have a little bit more time for you this afternoon.
11 We'll start now with your examination, but it will not take very
12 long. It will take a very limited period of time, and then we'll
13 continue tomorrow. But at least now -- now you've seen the courtroom
14 and -- otherwise, you might be worried about what it looks like to be in
15 this courtroom. So we'll make a start, not longer than ten minutes, and
16 then we'll continue tomorrow.
17 You'll first be examined by Mr. Di Fazio, who's counsel for the
19 Mr. Di Fazio.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
21 WITNESS: MOMCILO ANTIC
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
24 Q. Mr. Antic, I would like you to first provide the Trial Chamber
25 with a picture of yourself, and to that end I would like some personal
1 details, please. Give us -- or, rather, let me ask you to confirm this.
2 Your full name is Momcilo Antic. Is that correct?
3 A. [No audible response].
4 Q. You're going to have --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I heard the witness, but perhaps the witness
6 should come a bit closer to the microphone because otherwise the
7 interpreters cannot hear you. So would you speak a little bit more into
8 the microphones. I take it that you affirmed that you are Momcilo Antic.
9 Is that correct?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
11 MR. DI FAZIO:
12 Q. Okay. Thank you. And you have a nickname, Momo. Is that
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You were born on the 12th of July, 1962?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And you are Serbian and lived most of your life in Kosovo. Is
18 that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. In fact, where were you born?
21 A. In [indiscernible] and I lived in the village of Locane.
22 Q. How long had you lived in the village of Locane prior to 1998?
23 A. For 27 years.
24 Q. And with whom did you live in Locane?
25 A. With my family, my wife, two sons, my father.
1 Q. Thank you. And I'd like you to provide the Trial Chamber with a
2 snap-shot of your domestic situation in very early 1998. Which village
3 were you living in? Who was in the house living with you? And what was
4 your occupation at that time?
5 A. I lived in Locane with my two sons, my wife, and my father. My
6 cousins were also there, my aunt, my neighbours, and my friends.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'll ask you about that, the broader
8 situation. But as far as your actual house was concerned, do I take it
9 that you lived in the house with your father, your two sons, and your
10 wife; or did that also include your cousins and aunt in the same -- in
11 the same building?
12 A. No, no, no. They had their own house and I had mine.
13 Q. So who was actually living in your own house? Who was actually
14 in the building under that roof?
15 A. In my house?
16 Q. Yes, yes. In your house, yes.
17 A. My father, myself, my wife, and our two sons.
18 Q. Thank you. And what was your occupation again, please?
19 A. I worked in a factory in Istinic, a pump factory; they produced
21 Q. How long had you been working in that factory in Istinic prior to
23 A. For eight years. After that, I worked with the reserve police
24 forces, the Decani SUP.
25 Q. I'd just like -- perhaps we can clarify this business of the
1 reserve police. When did you actually start working with the reserve
2 police as a reserve policeman?
3 A. I started in 1990, and I continued working until the very last
4 day when I was wounded.
5 Q. Does that mean that you were in the reserve policemen -- in the
6 reserve police as a full-time reserve policeman? That was your
7 day-to-day work?
8 A. I worked whenever it was necessary, not full time, not every day.
9 I would do five- or six-month stints, and then I would be on leave for a
10 month or so, that sort of pace.
11 Q. All right. But in the period of time leading up to 1998, were
12 you actually going to the factory in Istinic and working there?
13 A. No, not in 1998. In 1998, I was with the police.
14 Q. Okay. So by the time 1998 came around, you were no longer going
15 to work in the factory, and each day you would be carrying out
16 policeman's duties as a reserve policeman. Is that a correct
18 A. Yes, in 1998 throughout, until I was wounded. And later, I was
19 at the military academy hospital in Belgrade, and I was no longer able to
20 carry out my duties.
21 Q. Well, thank you for that.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I think that's probably as
23 good a time as any.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 Mr. Antic, as I told you before, it would be only very short
1 today. We'll continue tomorrow at a quarter to 3.00, and then we'll be
2 in another courtroom, that would be Courtroom I, but they'll bring you at
3 the right place.
4 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Antic out of the
6 We'd like to see you back, Mr. Antic. But I would first like to
7 instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony, although
8 limited, you have given and the testimony still to be given.
9 Madam Usher.
10 I'd like to go into private session for just one second.
11 [Private session]
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 4th day of
23 April, 2007, at 2.45 p.m.