1 Wednesday, 4 April 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.49 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
9 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Di Fazio, are you ready to continue the examination-in-chief
12 of Mr. Antic?
13 MR. DI FAZIO: I am, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Antic, I would like to remind you that you
15 are still bound by the solemn declaration you have given yesterday at the
16 beginning of your testimony. Do you understand that?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please speak as close to the microphone as
20 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 WITNESS: MOMCILO ANTIC [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]l
24 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]
25 Q. Mr. Antic, yesterday I was asking you some questions about your
1 personal details, your background. In -- no, I want to ask you now about
2 the village you lived in in 1998; that was named Locane, was it not?
3 A. Indeed it was.
4 Q. And it's located fairly close to Decani, slightly to --
5 A. Decani, yes.
6 Q. Just wait for me to finish my questions. And it's located
7 slightly to the west, I think, of the Decani-Djakovica road. Is that
9 A. Yes, in the direction of Decani and Djakovica.
10 Q. Thanks. I want you to give the Trial Chamber an idea of the
11 demography of the village, the population that lived there. Can you tell
12 us how many Serbs -- households and Serbs lived in Locane in early 1998?
13 A. There were five Serb households, Serb. Albanian, near 200
15 Q. Thank you. And can you remember any of the names of the Serbs
16 who lived in your village?
17 A. Sure.
18 Q. Let's have them, please.
19 A. Simic Jordan; Simic Svetozar; Danilovic Djordje; Danilovic Ilija;
20 Danilovic Vuko; Simic Svetozar; Dvaljevic [phoen] Spasoje;
21 Antic Slavoljub; Antic Dasko; Antic Djordje --
22 Q. Can I just ask you to pause there. I'm terribly sorry. I
23 think -- I think it was my fault. I think I misled you. All I was
24 really asking for was the family names of the Serbs, not the name of each
25 individual, otherwise we'll be here a long time. So what were the main
1 family names of the Serbs living in your village?
2 A. Antic, Simic, Danilovic, and the house near the elementary school
3 building near the Slup, Glovarevic [phoen].
4 Q. Okay. All right. Fine. That's good enough a picture. Thank
5 you. In early 1998 before April, were you commuting from your house or
6 your home in Locane to your work in Decani?
7 A. Yes, all the way up until April, until we left the village.
8 Q. Thank you. And at this time, you were engaged in full-time
9 duties as a policeman in your capacity as a reserve policeman. Is that
11 A. Not throughout. Only when the situation was tense. It was then
12 that they called me.
13 Q. Well, I was asking you a little bit about this yesterday and I'm
14 still not quite sure. What I'd like you to do is tell the Trial Chamber
15 as clearly as you can how your day-to-day activities were conducted in
16 the first three months of 1998: January, February, March. Now, were you
17 going to the police station and doing policeman's jobs every single day,
18 or were you also sometimes also going to your civilian work? Was it a
19 combination of one or the other? Can you describe it to the Trial
20 Chamber, please.
21 A. Ever since 1990, I had been with the reserve police, and at those
22 times I was not with the factory.
23 Q. All right. And what about early 1998, those three months, did
24 you do mainly police work in those three months, or were you doing mainly
25 work at the factory, or was it a combination of both?
1 A. Both.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, did you eventually take a -- did you eventually
3 leave Locane?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When was that?
6 A. 1998, the day after Easter day when the shooting started.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just give me a moment to
9 transfer to this other microphone, please.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I ask, for my orientation, what religion do
11 you belong to and if this Easter is the Orthodox Easter you mean?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The Orthodox Easter.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
15 Q. All right. Now, you say you made -- you took your decision the
16 day after Easter when the shooting started. Firstly, did you take your
17 family with you?
18 A. Yes. My two sons and my wife; my father refused to leave. He
19 was an old man, 61 or 62 at the time. He said, I'm an old man. Take
20 your family and go to your father-in-law's house in Pec, because that was
21 a safer place to be at the time. I followed suit.
22 Q. And your father is Ilija Antic; correct?
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. Okay. And did you, in fact, take up -- leave your house and go
25 and take up residence in Pec in your father-in-law's house?
1 A. Yes, that's right.
2 Q. I want to ask you now some questions concerning the reason for
3 your departure. Now, you've already started to touch upon that because
4 you mentioned that you took your decision the day after Easter when the
5 shooting started. Now, what -- what was going through your mind as to
6 the reason why you should leave your village where you lived and go to
7 Pec? What were you worried about? What were you concerned about?
8 A. Until I was wounded when I left the village of Locane, my father
9 remained in the village. I would go back every so often to bring him
10 food and cigarettes. I saw all the people there, but I recognised none.
11 There was this one time I was on my way back just past midnight, and at
12 the bridge I met six men wearing black uniforms. I told them --
13 THE INTERPRETER: And then the witness says something in Albanian
14 which the interpreter didn't understand.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and they didn't reply. They
16 crossed the bridge, and they went straight to their HQ where the late
17 Vida had been killed and that's where the HQ was.
18 MR. DI FAZIO:
19 Q. Okay. But just think very carefully -- I'll ask you some more
20 questions about what you've told us in a moment, but think carefully
21 about my question. You said that you left the day after -- you left your
22 house and your village with your family, your wife and kids, and you left
23 the day after Easter.
24 Firstly, did your decision have anything to do with this shooting
25 that you have referred to? Just answer me yes or no. Did that play a
1 part in your decision to leave your village?
2 A. Only because of the shooting.
3 Q. All right. Okay. So you took your decision the day after
4 Easter, so then -- am I correct then that the shooting occurred at some
5 point before the day after Easter? Just answer me yes or no.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. Now, will you please tell the Trial Chamber what shooting
8 you are referring to, when you heard it or saw it, where it occurred, and
9 who was doing the shooting.
10 A. I had been sleeping in my room. It was about 9.00. My wife
11 came, my father came, they'd been outside, and the shooting was coming
12 from Prilep, the direction of Prilep or possibly Drenovac. All of those
13 were illumination bullets. All those with families left. Only the
14 elderly remained behind. All of those with families left for Decani for
15 the sake of our family's safety.
16 Q. Thank you. When you say illumination bullets, are you refer to
17 tracer bullets, bullets that leave a trace after they've been fired from
18 a gun?
19 A. Yes, precisely, tracer bullets.
20 Q. Thank you. And you then said that having heard of -- heard the
21 shooting from Prilep and having seen these tracer bullets, you then went
22 on to say that: All those with families left and only the old people
23 remained. Can you -- just a minute. Just a minute, wait for the
24 question. Remember just to wait for the question, and then you'll find
25 it a lot easier to answer.
1 And then you went -- then you said all of those families left for
2 Decani. Now, what I would like you to explain to the Trial Chamber is
3 this: Was that a decision that a number of families took at the one
4 time, or did it happen that families left for Decani in dribs and drabs
5 slowly over the next few days, or was there a mass -- not a mass, but a
6 large movement of families, Serbs, from your village?
7 A. My brother Miodrag Antic, he left two days, his family, and he
8 stayed with his father and mother. Slavoljub Antic, my brother too, left
9 with our mother and his family for Decani. Jordan Simic did the same
10 thing with his family, he left. His mother and aunt remained behind.
11 Vuk Danilovic and Ilija Danilovic followed this example, too; as well as
12 Svetozar Simic with his family.
13 Q. Good. Thank you for explaining that. Now, can I ask you this:
14 Of those people you say who actually left the village, did they all leave
15 at about the same time, or did it happen over a period of days or longer?
16 A. One of them one day and the other the next day. They didn't
17 leave altogether.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you. And -- using the day after Easter as a marking
19 point, can you say if they left both before and after that day, or was it
20 only after that day that they left?
21 A. You mean the Serbs?
22 Q. That's who I've been talking about, yes.
23 A. We all left the same day.
24 Q. Yes. Okay. Can you tell us if you all left the same day after
25 Easter or did some leave before and some after?
1 A. Miodrag Antic, his wife took the children and left, she did.
2 After her, Slavoljub Antic left too, so did Svetozar Simic, Jordan Simic.
3 My wife and I left the last day.
4 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, earlier I was asking you some
5 questions about your reasons for leaving. You mentioned the -- the
6 firing that you could hear from Prilep and the tracer bullets, and you
7 also started to mention an episode where you were with some men on a
8 bridge. Can you now tell the Trial Chamber what the episode -- what the
9 episode was you were referring to?
10 MR. EMMERSON: I do apologise for rising, but it might be helpful
11 to clarify whether this episode took place before or after the witness
12 left because the way in which I'd heard the evidence may not be quite the
13 same as the way in which Mr. Di Fazio heard it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Before we do so, I would like to have clarified one
16 Mr. Di Fazio, any objection to follow the suggestion made by
17 Mr. --
18 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no; in fact, I fully intend to adopt it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Then, Mr. Antic, you at one moment said one of them left on one
21 day and the other the next day. They didn't leave altogether. A few
22 lines further down, you said: We all left the same day. Were you
23 referring the first time to the Serbs, that means the families, all of
24 them, one one day, another the other day; and the second time to your own
25 family? Or have I misunderstood this?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, it's correct --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- what I said is.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and my understanding was correct as well, as
5 far as I understand.
6 Mr. Di Fazio.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
8 Q. Let's try and get a time on this episode at the bridge that you
9 referred to first before I ask you about it. You did refer to an episode
10 on a bridge with some men. Now, can you tell us when that took place,
11 before or after you left your village?
12 A. That took place in April, the 20th of April. I was on my way to
13 visit my father, to bring him food and cigarettes, and I came across five
14 or six of them in black uniforms. However, they were not armed.
15 Q. All right. So I take it -- am I correct that this episode with
16 the men on the bridge, when you were going to visit your father, took
17 place after you had taken your -- made your decision to leave the
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. I just want to return now to the firing that you
21 could see from -- see and hear from the direction of Prilep. Why did
22 that cause you concern so that you left your village? Why -- what was it
23 about that, that had you worried?
24 A. Every night they were arming themselves; every night there were
25 lorries and tractors going towards Voksa and Junik. There was noise
1 throughout the night produced by cars, lorries, and tractors, and that's
2 why all of us Serbs decided to leave the area. Only the elderly remained
3 in their homes.
4 Q. Now, we're going to need a lot more detail about the people you
5 referred to as they. You say "they were arming themselves" and there was
6 lorries and tractors. Now, who are "they"?
7 A. The civilians.
8 Q. Mr. Antic, think about it. Civilians. What sort of civilians?
9 Men? Women? Children? Adults? What ethnicity? Can you give us some
10 information about them?
11 A. The young went, aged between 20 and 40, not the women, though, or
12 the children.
13 Q. I'll repeat my question, Mr. Antic. You said to the Trial
14 Chamber that - and listen carefully, please listen very carefully - you
15 said this: "Every night they were arming themselves, every night there
16 were lorries and tractors going towards Voksa and Junik ... noise
17 throughout the night produced by cars, lorries, and tractors ..."
18 Now, it's a very simple question. When you say: "Every night
19 they were arming themselves ...", can you provide any information as to
20 who "they" were?
21 A. I don't know their names, if that's what you mean. There was
22 noise just before Easter and we couldn't --
23 Q. All right. I'm not asking for names, but could you give us a
24 description of who these people were, any sort of description? And of
25 course if you never saw them or got no idea at all, please tell the Trial
1 Chamber and we'll move on. I'm not trying to suggest that you know the
3 A. No, I didn't see them. We just heard the noise, that was all.
4 Q. Okay. So you heard noises, and for that reason you decided to
5 leave your village. Is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Well, what was it about these noises that so troubled you -- I'll
8 withdraw that question?
9 What Serbs remained -- did -- you said only the elderly remained
10 in your village of Locane. Can you remember any of their names, apart
11 from your father, Ilija Antic, please?
12 A. You mean out of the Serbs who remained behind in Locane.
13 Q. That's right. Yeah?
14 A. My late father, Ilija, remained; as well as my uncle Djordje; his
15 wife, Milosava; my cousin on the uncle's side remained there for another
16 three to four days and then went back to Decani and remained there;
17 Vidosava Simic stayed there, as well, with his sister Borka. That's it,
18 I believe.
19 Q. Can you tell can the Trial Chamber if you noticed any
20 corresponding movement amongst the Albanian families that lived in your
21 village? Did they also go and take up residence in towns in the area?
22 A. No, they did not. When I went to visit my father, he told me
23 that there were women coming from elsewhere, from Glodjane, Rznica, and
24 from some other areas. And he said that there were men he didn't know
25 because they were not the inhabitants of our village.
1 Q. Did he give you any information as to the ethnicity of these
3 A. Albanians.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Can we go into private session very briefly, if
5 Your Honours please?
6 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 MR. DI FAZIO:
23 Q. Witness, I'm going to continue asking you some questions about
24 this man whose name you mentioned in private session. Did you have a
25 chance to see him in late 1997/early 1998?
1 A. I did.
2 Q. What was his occupation?
3 A. He was a policeman, a professional policeman. He worked as a
4 traffic policeman in Istok.
5 Q. Thank you. Do you know if he was a member of any organisation in
6 1997 or 1998?
7 A. I don't know that. I only know that I used to see him with some
8 young people training them. They would run at night since there was a
9 wooded area just above the village, and they used to run there.
10 Q. So was he a keen athlete? Did he have a running club - do I
11 understand you correctly - or was there some other activity going on? If
12 you could just clarify.
13 A. I suppose they were preparing themselves for war.
14 Q. All right. Mr. Antic, have you got any reason for making that
16 A. He was training people daily and at night, too.
17 Q. Yes, okay. I understand that, and you suppose that they were
18 preparing themselves for war, and you mentioned the training. Okay.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. But my question is not whether they were training,
21 but how you know what they -- how do you know what they were doing? Did
22 you see it with your own eyes? Did you receive information to that
24 A. Yes, I did. I saw them myself.
25 Q. At night or during the day or both?
1 A. Not during the day, but at dusk I would see 10 to 15 of them
2 running through the forest and he headed the group.
3 Q. Okay. Now, I still haven't really received an answer to an
4 earlier question, and I'd like to ask it again. You said you suppose
5 that they were preparing themselves for war, and I asked you if you had
6 any reason and you referred to training. And you've just again mentioned
7 seeing them running.
8 Now, what is it about their running that made you think that they
9 were preparing for war, or did you observe something else apart from
11 A. They would assemble every night. They would meet and discuss
12 what and how to do things. They discussed digging trenches and so on and
13 so forth.
14 Q. And how would you know that? How do you know that?
15 A. If one goes to the village cemetery in Locane, my neighbours told
16 me that they saw three men digging trenches at Carove.
17 Q. And is that somehow related to the man whose name we mentioned in
18 private session or not?
19 A. It is possible, but I didn't see him. It is possible that it was
20 his school.
21 Q. Thank you. I'll move on to another topic now. On the 25th of
22 May, 1998, Mr. Antic, were you -- were you driving to work?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. I'm going to ask you about what happened to you on that day, but
25 before I do, can I ask you this: As far as you were aware, was your
1 father, Ilija Antic, still alive on that day, as far as you were aware?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you for that. Can you tell me who else was in your
4 vehicle, if anyone -- if anyone?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Could you tell me the names of the people who were in
7 your car?
8 A. There was a fellow policeman there, he was new to the police and
9 I don't know what his name was. There was a driver there as well. He
10 worked with the utility company, the electricity company, in Decani. His
11 nickname is Striko. There was also an old man from Dasinovci. I think
12 his first name was Dimitrije; I don't know his last name. It may be that
13 he was Dimitrije Popovic.
14 Q. Was he a policeman as well, this Dimitrije?
15 A. No, he was an elderly person, a civilian.
16 Q. Okay. The car you were travelling in, whose vehicle was it?
17 A. The car belonged to the driver who worked for the electricity
18 company. It was not an official car.
19 Q. Were you dressed in uniform or were any of the other occupants in
20 the car dressed in uniform, police uniform, or indeed any soldiers or
21 military uniform?
22 A. The colleague of mine was there. He was in the co-driver's seat.
23 He had the uniform on, as well as I did, and we went to relieve the
24 previous shift.
25 Q. Police uniform, I take it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Now, it's -- I don't think it's in dispute in this
3 case. Can you tell us how -- how you were shot at and what happened on
4 that day?
5 A. It happened on the 25th of May. It was five minutes to 7.00. We
6 arrived at Ljubenic where the bus station was. Some 100 metres before
7 the station, there is a curve onto a road. They were standing there with
8 20 metres between each of them, and as soon as they saw us in uniform
9 they opened fire.
10 Q. Well, was there any attempt to stop you or the vehicle?
11 A. There was no attempt to stop us. As soon as they saw our
12 uniforms, they opened fire. It was our luck that they were young and
13 they couldn't handle their weapons properly. They opened fire at us and
14 turned their heads the other way at the same time. Dimitrije was
15 injured; he got a bullet to one of his muscles. And they hit me below
16 the knee with a dum-dum, an explosive-charge bullet.
17 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you if you can tell us who "they"
18 are? Have you got any details about "they," then the Trial Chamber would
19 like to know.
20 A. It was Ramush Haradinaj's army. They wore camouflage uniforms.
21 Q. Well -- okay. First of all, can you remember how many of these
22 men wearing camouflage uniforms there were?
23 A. Around 20.
24 Q. And I suppose events must have happened fairly fast, and if you
25 can't remember, I don't want you to provide details, only if you can
1 remember. Can you tell us if they were all armed, or only some of them,
2 or you're not sure?
3 A. They were all armed. There was a canal next to the road on the
4 right-hand side. When two of them saw that the car kept moving, they
5 came out of the canal. Our driver saw him and hit him with the
6 right-hand side of the car, throwing him back down. I don't know what
7 happened to him subsequently.
8 Q. Okay. Now, earlier you made an assertion that it was
9 Ramush Haradinaj's army?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. First of all, can you tell us what you understand by the
12 expression "Ramush Haradinaj's army"? Firstly tell us that, and then I'm
13 going to ask you some other questions about that. What is your
14 understanding of what Ramush Haradinaj's army was or is?
15 A. Ramush Haradinaj was their superior. They were his troops. They
16 were certainly not mine.
17 Q. All right. Can you tell us if they were normal VJ members or
18 normal MUP or SUP people at the side of the road. Can you -- do you now
19 have any comment about that?
20 A. No, no. It was the KLA.
21 Q. So -- what -- that expression you just used, "KLA," when did you
22 first hear of that?
23 A. I heard about it on TV. They showed footage of them being
24 trained in Albania and elsewhere. It was on the television.
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. That's when I heard of it.
2 Q. Well, what information do you have, if any, that the people on
3 the road, who shot at you, were Ramush Haradinaj's army? Or is that just
4 supposition? Make it clear for the Trial Chamber, okay. We want to be
5 clear about what you're saying.
6 A. It was Ramush Haradinaj's army since he was their commander. He
7 issued them -- he issued orders to them. I did not issue orders to them.
8 It was Ramush Haradinaj personally.
9 Q. Did you ever meet him?
10 A. Who, Ramush?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. At school. I knew him from passing, but I never spoke with him.
13 I only know him by sight.
14 Q. All right. Now, I think you managed to make it to safety and you
15 were hospitalised and -- I think for a period of about two months. Is
16 that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. During the time that you were in hospital or after your release
19 from hospital, did you learn of your father's disappearance?
20 A. When I left the hospital, I learned it then. My brother lived in
21 Sremska Palanka. They came to visit me there, all of them, but no one
22 would tell me what had happened. When I came to Sremska Palanka, to my
23 brother's place, his older son Milos -- since he loved his grandfather
24 very much and was always with him, he said, Dad, let's call grandpa. He
25 said that a few times, and then my brother told him, You can't call him.
1 He was taken away by the Siptars. And the son asked, Where did they
2 catch him? And my brother said, In front of the house.
3 I was wounded on the 25th, so that must have been on the 27th or
4 on the 28th, and the late Vida was killed on the 30th in front of her
5 house where the headquarters were, just across from her house. The whole
6 house was riddled with bullets. She was over 70 years old.
7 Q. Okay. So you relied upon information that you received from your
8 nephew or brother to find out what had happened to your --
9 A. From my brother.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Later did your -- were your father's remains
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
13 MR. EMMERSON: I'm so sorry, but classically we need to know what
14 was the basis of the brother's information. Now, Your Honours will have
15 seen the witness statement.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Sure, I can get that, that's not a problem.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
18 MR. DI FAZIO:
19 Q. Do you know where your brother got his information about your
20 father's disappearance?
21 A. Since my sister lived in Djakovica, she heard about that and she
22 relayed that to my brother in Palanka. My brother didn't go there, not
23 until his body was found, and then we -- he went there to bury him. But
24 my sister Bosiljka was the first one to learn about it.
25 Q. Do you know where she got her information? And I'm talking now
1 about the circumstances -- any information about the circumstances of
2 your father's disappearance?
3 A. A cousin of mine on my uncle's side lives in Djakovica. His
4 neighbour was with the fire-fighting squad. I believe they went there to
5 collect bodies, and since he had known my father, he told my cousin, They
6 found our uncle. And he asked, Where? And then the neighbour said, At
7 Radonjic Lake. He went to my sister's and told her that they found my
8 late uncle -- that they found the late uncle.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
10 MR. EMMERSON: The witness is answering questions now about how
11 he learnt about the discovery at the Lake Radonjic canal --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes --
13 MR. DI FAZIO: That's clear. I know, but I'll deal with this
14 so --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. There are two approaches. The first one is
16 that you stop the witness and then focus his attention again on the
17 attention. If, however, he's telling something that would come up later
18 in his testimony anyhow, then it's not a major problem to let him finish
19 the answer because then the information is there and then you can return
20 to it. But it happened frequently that -- where the witness did not
21 specifically answer to the question, that you did not return to that
22 issue for reasons not always known to us.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.
25 Q. I'm not going to ask you questions about your father's -- the
1 discovery of your father's remains; I'm going to ask questions about the
2 circumstances under which he disappeared.
3 Now, you've already told us what your brother said to you, and
4 you've already told us that he said that -- he gave you an explanation
5 when your nephew was there as well. You then explained that your brother
6 got his information about how your father disappeared from your sister?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. I'm not talking about your father being found in the lake
9 or in the canal; I'm talking about how he disappeared from his home, his
10 house, in the village. Okay. Now, where did your sister get information
11 about how your father disappeared from his house in his village? That's
12 all I'm asking you about, that part.
13 A. My late father was at my brother Djordje's house, since their
14 houses were close. He went to his house to watch the news. He left his
15 house at 8.30 p.m. After that, he wanted to go to our street where the
16 house was, and that's where he was caught. The next day, my aunt and
17 uncle went to his house, and they found the door closed, and they called
18 his name but there was no reply. My uncle broke one of the windows to
19 the bedroom and entered, and they realised that the house was empty.
20 They went to the field, my aunt, my uncle, the late Vida, and her sister
21 Borka, all of them.
22 In the meantime, my cousin Miodrag Antic, he went to see the
23 father. When he returned to Decani, since there was no telephone
24 connection in Locane, he called my brother in Djakovica and told him
25 that. He told him that the father had disappeared. And then the brother
1 called my sister Bosiljka. And then Bosiljka called my brother in
2 Sremska Palanka.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask you one question, Mr. Antic. You said:
4 "He wanted to go to our street where the house was, and that's where he
5 was caught."
6 He was caught by whom?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The neighbours. Who else?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Who was present, as far as you know, when he was
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean on our side? The Serbs?
11 Or who caught him?
12 JUDGE ORIE: No. I just want to know: Who with his own eyes saw
13 your father being caught?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No one saw it.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then the next question is: Who then could tell you
16 or anyone else that your father was caught at that moment, at that place?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My late aunt told me that; her name
18 is Milosava.
19 JUDGE ORIE: But she was not present either, was she?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, she was not.
21 JUDGE ORIE: How --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But she knew when he had left her
23 house, and she knew that he disappeared that night.
24 JUDGE ORIE: May I then take it that from the fact that your
25 father left the house and wanted to return to his own house and has
1 disappeared since then, that you assume that on his way from the house to
2 his own house, he must have been caught by someone? Is that correctly
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And that you have no concrete further information
6 about who exactly at that time, who and how many people caught him?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how many people there
8 were since I didn't see it myself, but I suppose he was caught by our
9 immediate neighbours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
12 Q. All right. I want to ask you some questions about the discovery
13 of your father's remains. Do you know when that occurred?
14 A. That was in June, 1998.
15 Q. Okay. Did you -- did you ever see your father's remains?
16 A. No. I didn't have a brace for my leg. I was still using my
17 crutches, and I couldn't walk all that much. My wife and my sister,
18 Bosiljka, went to the hotel to see it.
19 Q. What hotel is that?
20 A. Hotel Pastrika, in Djakovica.
21 Q. Did you discuss that episode with your wife, Jovanka?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Do you know if she had any success or was able to identify
25 A. They weren't able to see the body, the remains. What was given
1 to us were the key and the mirror that he had on him. The key belonged
2 to him and the pipe belonged to him, and that's how we identified.
3 Q. Thank you. I just want to ask you one question about one of
4 those items, that's the key. Okay. Now, do your best, if you possibly
5 could, please, to provide as much detail as you can. You said what was
6 given to us --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
8 MR. EMMERSON: First of all, I have no objection to Mr. Di Fazio
9 leading, if this evidence is important; secondly, there is DNA evidence
10 in this instance which is not in dispute.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. It's -- I'm just about ended by
12 examination-in-chief, this is the last topic, if Your Honours please, and
13 I can wrap it up in --
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think Mr. Emmerson raises the issue whether
15 personal belongings play any role in identification of the person where
16 there -- I take it the DNA result is -- you agree on that?
17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It's not in dispute.
19 Nevertheless, if you would like --
20 MR. DI FAZIO: I would just like this man to finish --
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- to put one or two questions but for other reasons
22 then --
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I just want the witness to finish his story.
24 That's basically what I wanted.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand.
1 MR. DI FAZIO:
2 Q. Now -- well, I will lead you on this. Your wife went to the
3 hotel, and there she examined some personal possessions. Was there a key
4 there that belonged to your father?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. And did your family take the key back to your house and try it in
7 the door and did it work?
8 A. I personally took the key back to the house and used it, and it
9 worked. On the key, there was a string which he used to tie the key to
10 his pocket.
11 Q. All right. Mr. Antic, I'd like to thank you for answering my
12 questions and telling your story to the Trial Chamber.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I have no further
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.
16 Mr. Antic, you will now be cross-examined by counsel for the
17 Defence. Mr. Emmerson is counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
18 Mr. Emmerson, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
19 MR. EMMERSON: I am.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
22 Q. Mr. Antic -- sorry, can you hear me clearly?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I just want to ask you one or two questions, first of all, about
25 your role as a reserve police officer. I want to read to you, if I may,
1 just for a moment a sentence from the statement that you made to the
2 Prosecution investigators in this case in April 2002. I think you had a
3 chance to read that statement before coming into court. Is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In that statement, there is a passage which reads - and I'll read
6 it slowly so it can be translated for you - "I was also an MUP reservist
7 in Decani since 1990, and I was occasionally called in when tensions were
8 rising. From the beginning of 1998 on, I was permanently operational as
9 a reservist until I was injured on the 25th of May, 1998."
10 This is page 2, second paragraph.
11 Now, I'm just seeing if I can jog your memory about your own
12 position during the early months of 1998. You seem to have said there
13 that from the beginning of 1998, you were permanently operational as a
14 reservist. You gave us some evidence earlier on, saying that during the
15 first three months of 1998, you thought you were working part time in the
16 factory and part time for the police. Can you clarify for us, please?
17 A. No. It's not true that I had worked for three months. The
18 factory was not operating at the time.
19 Q. That's very helpful. So can we say then from -- at least from
20 January 1998, you were working full time as a police officer. Is that
22 A. Since when? Which year did you say?
23 Q. January 1998.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And were there other reserve police officers in your village of
2 A. Yes. Spasoje Mrvaljevic.
3 Q. And any others, as far as you know?
4 A. Not that I know of, just the two of us.
5 Q. There were only five Serb families in the village, but as far as
6 you can recall no other families had members in the reserve police?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. And, again, just so that we're clear, was it possible to be a
9 member of the reserve police if you were Albanian or only if you were
11 A. You see, Muslims, too, were working. There's one, who was with
12 the police, who was a Catholic. He worked in Junik. It wasn't just
14 Q. I see. So the Muslims you're referring to, would they be
16 A. Some Albanians were in Pec but not in Decani, those who were
18 Q. In the reserve police?
19 A. No, no, no, active-duty.
20 Q. And - again just to be clear - in the reserve police were there
21 any Albanians?
22 A. No, just in Decani, local policemen.
23 Q. Sorry. Let me just put the question clearly. In the reserve
24 police, were there any Albanians, as far as you knew -- in the reserve
25 police? Sorry, Mr. Antic, I'm not sure, are you picking up my question.
1 A. No, no, there were none.
2 Q. Thank you. And how many Albanians in total are you aware of who
3 were in the police proper; that is to say, the full-time police, in 1998?
4 A. Where? You mean in Decani or in Pec.
5 Q. Tell us about both if you were aware, but confine your answer,
6 please, to 1998?
7 A. There was a Catholic who worked with us in Decani. His name was
8 Robert, and they killed him, too. He was from Pec.
9 Q. Do you know of any other Albanians?
10 A. I did know another one from Junik. When the shooting first
11 started, he got a rifle, a uniform, and he fled. But I forget his name.
12 Q. And you, yourself, were armed, I think. That's right, isn't it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And can we be clear, were you armed with both a pistol and an
15 automatic rifle?
16 A. I had a semi-automatic rifle and a pistol.
17 Q. And similarly, your colleague from the village, Spasoje - and
18 I'll get -- correct my pronunciation if I get it wrong - Dvaljevic?
19 A. Yes, the same thing.
20 Q. And would you leave your weapons behind when you left the police
21 station, or would you take them home with you?
22 A. To the police station.
23 Q. Sorry, did you understand my question clearly? When you left the
24 police station at the end of the day to go home, did you take your
25 weapons with you?
1 A. Just the pistol, not the rifles.
2 Q. Can I ask you this: Do you know if there were any Serb families
3 living a little further south from you in the village of Ponosevac during
4 the first part of 1998?
5 A. Ponosevac.
6 Q. Do you know it?
7 A. No. That is far from Decani.
8 Q. Yes. It's south of Junik, isn't it?
9 A. Yes, yes, I know. I know. Junik -- the distance between by
10 village and Junik is 12 kilometres, and then I don't know about the
11 distance between Junik and Ponosevac. I don't know.
12 Q. Again, leaving the distances aside, do you know whether there
13 were any Serbs living in Ponosevac?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Okay. Thank you. Nobody told your family to leave Locane in
16 Easter, did they? Nobody came up and told you you had to leave?
17 A. No, nobody told us. They just said -- neighbours told my father
18 and uncle, It's safe for you to stay. No one will touch you. You are
19 elderly people. We were told, or rather, they were told, but not us.
20 Q. So your father was given some re-assurance by neighbours; is that
21 what you're telling us?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. Now, you were asked by Mr. Di Fazio, Did any of the Albanian
24 families leave Locane at around the same time in -- at Easter? And you
25 said, No. But then you went on to say that when you went back to the
1 village to visit -- sorry, let me -- if I just develop the question. You
2 went on to say that when you went back to the village to visit your
3 father, he told you that there were women coming from the area around
4 Gllogjan and also other people, Albanians, that he didn't recognise. Can
5 I ask you: What was he telling you about these women? Was he suggesting
6 to you that they were people who were refugees?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Albanian refugees?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And that was quite soon after you left your home?
11 A. Yes. When I was on my way to see my father before I was wounded.
12 Q. Yes. There's only a month, I think, between you leaving the
13 house in Lloqan and the incident in which you were wounded. There's only
14 a month in between the two, isn't there?
15 A. 28th of April, not a month -- a month, yes.
16 Q. A month --
17 A. Yes, a month.
18 Q. And so do you agree that it was quite soon after you left that
19 your father told you about these refugees coming into Lloqan?
20 A. I don't understand the question.
21 Q. Was it quite soon after you left Lloqan that you went back and
22 spoke to your father when he told you that there were Albanian women
23 who'd come to the village from the area around Gllogjan?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I think you can confirm, can't you, that there were quite a lot
1 of Albanian refugees who'd fled their homes from the entire area during
2 the latter part of April and the beginning of May?
3 A. No. No one fled any of the Albanian villages.
4 Q. Sorry, I thought you told us just a moment ago that these women
5 who arrived in your village were refugees fleeing from the fighting?
6 A. Yes, yes, refugees. Late April, that's when they arrived, or
7 early April possibly. As for them leaving Locane, women, no, they
8 weren't leaving. They stayed right there.
9 Q. Let's forget about Lloqan for a moment. Generally around western
10 Kosovo in Decane and south of Decane around Junik, a lot of Albanians
11 were leaving their homes, weren't they?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. I see.
14 A. Junik is far away from where I was, 12 kilometres --
15 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions about that build-up and see
16 if you can help us with it at all. All right. When the incident
17 occurred in which you were shot, just to be clear, did you know any of
18 the people or recognise any of the people who fired on your vehicle, as
20 A. We were all lost there. That moment --
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the latter
22 part of the answer.
23 MR. EMMERSON: I see that the witness is making a gesture.
24 Q. Can I see if I can clarify your answer. Are you saying you
25 ducked down? Is that correct?
1 A. Yes. Those were all young men aged between 20 and 25.
2 Q. You didn't know any of them?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And you don't know what villages they were from or where they
5 might have been based?
6 A. They might have been from Ljubenic or from Glodja.
7 Q. Obviously, they might have been from anywhere, but you didn't
8 know where they were from?
9 A. That's right, we didn't.
10 Q. And I think you told us that they seemed not to know how to
11 handle their weapons. Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you say they looked away when they were firing?
14 A. Yes. And the bullets all went under the car.
15 Q. Now, this incident happened on the main road, didn't it, from
16 Peje down towards Decane?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What --
19 A. Where the bus station is in Ljubenic, you pass bus station and
20 then 100 metres on from there, there's a bend in the road.
21 Q. We'll --
22 A. There's a straight stretch of the road, and they stood right
23 beside the pylons along the road.
24 Q. We'll look at a map in a moment or two, but so that I'm clear,
25 you were driving along the main Peje to Gjakove road when this incident
2 A. Towards Decani.
3 Q. On that main road, not on any side roads?
4 A. No, no, the main road.
5 Q. And was it safe in -- on the 25th of May? Was it understood to
6 be safe? Were your commanders telling you it was safe for vehicles to
7 drive up and down without an armed escort?
8 A. No way. For a month, we couldn't take that road at all. It
9 wasn't safe.
10 Q. When was that month?
11 A. Between the 25th of May and June, late June.
12 Q. So until the incident in which you were injured, it had been a
13 road that you could drive along, as far as you knew, safely?
14 A. Yes, yes. Up until the 25th of May. Even then, it was risky.
15 Q. Again, I just want to make absolutely sure we've all understood
16 your evidence correctly. Prior to the incident when you were shot,
17 before that incident, as far as you were aware, it was safe for police
18 officers to drive in ordinary vehicles up and down the road from Peje to
20 A. In passenger vehicles, but they would do 100 kilometres per hour.
21 It wasn't safe. It was at break-neck speed and at great risk.
22 Q. Yes, but there was no requirement for you to be accompanied by an
23 armoured vehicle when travelling that road?
24 A. Only when I was wounded.
25 Q. Yes. The uniform that you and your colleague were wearing, would
1 that have been a blue camouflage uniform?
2 A. Blue.
3 Q. Was it a camouflage uniform that the reserve police officers
5 A. No, no, it was a blue one.
6 Q. Was it blue with different colours?
7 A. Blue and coffee colour --
8 Q. Yes --
9 A. -- but more blue than anything else.
10 Q. And with a pattern on it?
11 A. No, no pattern really. Just a very small one, nearly invisible.
12 Q. I see. I'm going to come in just a moment to what the situation
13 was in terms of fighting around that time, but before I do that, I want
14 to ask you some questions about your father and the date on which he
15 disappeared. And just to be absolutely clear about this, so that we've
16 understood the route by which you have this information, am I right in
17 thinking, first of all, that after you were shot on the 25th, you were
18 taken to a military hospital in Belgrade?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you stayed there, I think, with your family in Serbia from
21 the day that you, yourself, were shot until the end of July. Is that
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then at the end of July, you and your family moved back to
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Now, again, am I right in thinking that nobody told you about
3 your father's disappearance whilst you were still in hospital?
4 A. No one.
5 Q. And so the first time that you heard about it was sometime after
6 the end of July?
7 A. I left the hospital and arrived at my brother's in
8 Sremska Palanka. My older son asked me to call my father, his
9 grandfather, and then my brother said, Don't call him. He was captured
10 by the terrorists.
11 Q. Yes, I understand that, but that incident, that conversation,
12 took place at or after the end of July. Is that correct?
13 A. What? June.
14 Q. No. You were in hospital until the end of July in Serbia;
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. And so that we're clear, it was after you came out of hospital
18 and returned to Decane that that conversation took place; correct?
19 A. No, no, not with my brother. With my wife and sister.
20 Q. Let me put it to you another way, see if we can get to this a
21 different route. Did you learn of your father's death, or rather, your
22 father's disappearance, did you learn that your father had disappeared at
23 any time before you left the hospital? Did you know about it before you
24 left the hospital or only afterwards?
25 A. Afterwards, when my brother said that our father had gone
1 missing, since my son asked to speak to his granddad.
2 Q. No, I understand. Now, again, so that we've got the sequence
3 accurate, your aunt and uncle are called Djordje and Milosava, and they
4 live in Lloqan or lived in Lloqan at the time. Is that right?
5 A. Yes, yes.
6 Q. Because I think the translation came over earlier on in a
7 slightly inaccurate form. I think Djordje is your father's brother? Is
8 that right?
9 A. Yes, yes, brother. And Milosava is Djordje's wife.
10 Q. And again, so that we're clear, as far as you understand the
11 sequence of the information passing along, is it right that your cousin
12 Miodrag went and spoke to your aunt and uncle Djordje and Milosava?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And as far as you understood it, they told your cousin Miodrag
15 that your father had been to their house -- had been to their house and
16 had left, and the following morning they looked for him and his house was
17 still locked; correct?
18 A. It was locked. Then the uncle broke the window to enter the
19 house. He broke the door down as well, and they did not find him. His
20 shoes were not there either.
21 Q. I understand. I'm trying to understand the sequence by which the
22 information came to you. Now, Miodrag spoke to Djordje and Milosava and
23 then I think you told us that, when Miodrag came back to Decane, he told
24 one of your brothers, who told your sister, who then told your other
25 brother. Is that right?
1 A. No, no. When Miodrag came back from Locane, when he heard that
2 my father had gone missing, he came to Decani. Then he called up my
3 brother, and then my brother went to see our sister and he told her.
4 Q. Do you have only one brother or did you at the time only have one
6 A. I had. He died a month ago.
7 Q. Just so that we're clear, though, Mr. Antic. I thought you told
8 us, earlier on, that your cousin Miodrag told one of your brothers, who
9 then told your sister, who then told the brother, who told you. Is that
10 right or wrong?
11 A. The sister told my brother in Sremska Palanka, but that brother
12 passed away.
13 Q. And that --
14 A. She called him and he was the only brother I had.
15 Q. And the brother in Sremska Palanka is the one who told you?
16 A. Yes, when I left the hospital.
17 Q. I'm sorry for this rather lengthy examination of that aspect of
18 the matter, but it's quite important to know in terms of how close the
19 information you've got was to the original source.
20 Now, Djordje and Milosava, your aunt and uncle, died, I think, of
21 natural causes in 2001, didn't they?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How sure are you of the date that you've given us? Because
24 you've told us that your father went missing on the 28th of May. Can you
25 help us -- just pause for a moment. Can you help us. When you say the
1 28th, do you mean the night of the 27th to the 28th or the night of the
2 28th to the 29th?
3 A. The night of the 28th.
4 Q. So does that mean going into the 29th?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I mean, do you think it's possible there could be an error by a
7 day or two either way, in that date?
8 A. I don't believe so. I think the date is correct.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I'm looking at the clock.
12 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you still need?
14 MR. EMMERSON: About 20 minutes, I think.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we first should have a break.
16 Mr. Di Fazio, could you -- first of all, could other Defence
17 counsel give an impression on how much time they would need?
18 Mr. Guy-Smith.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'll be very short, if at all.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Mr. Harvey.
22 MR. HARVEY: I'll be shorter than that.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Mr. Di Fazio, do you have already any impression on whether
25 and --
1 MR. DI FAZIO: So far, no re-examination.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Mr. Antic, we'll have a break. We'll have a break and we'll
4 resume at a quarter to 5.00. May I invite Defence counsel to focus on -
5 during the break - on a letter they, I expect, have received by now. It
6 must be rather recent letter because it refers to what happened at
7 3.00 p.m. this afternoon and to see -- to consider whether there's any
8 objection against the proposed course to take -- as proposed by the
9 Prosecution. Yes.
10 We'll then hear from you.
11 We have a break and we'll resume at a quarter to 5.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 4.20 p.m.
13 [The witness stands down]
14 --- On resuming at 4.50 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I invited Defence counsel to look at
16 the letter. Just to briefly introduce the matter, we have two requests;
17 one is for protective measures, the other is for a postponement of the
18 start of the testimony.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: In view of the fact that a request for protective
21 measures is still pending, I would like to invite you if you respond - I
22 don't know whether you're going to respond on behalf of all Defence
23 counsel - but to keep in mind the -- that protective measures are still
24 pending. So I leave the postponement. The Chamber has read the request
25 for postponement at the start of Witness 8 and is, therefore, aware of
1 the reasons given. If you can deal with it without going into private
2 session, fine, we'd like to hear from you.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Two things, if I may. We've responded in
4 writing already in relation to the protective measures application --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I've -- the Chamber has --
6 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- has seen that --
8 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- and perhaps it's good to have that on the record.
10 The Chamber has invited the parties to give its first reaction, and this
11 has been sent to the Legal Officer of the Chamber.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But it's good to have this be clearly on the record.
15 MR. EMMERSON: Just to be absolutely clear, is Your Honour asking
16 me to respond at the moment in relation to the postponement issue?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Only because the other matter is pending.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Bearing in mind that it's pending. Exactly so.
21 What I need to inform Your Honours of factually are three things:
22 First of all, the name and telephone number that appear on the document
23 concerned, that document was handed to the Prosecution in the form of
24 investigator Kelly by the Witness 8 in November 2005. The relevant
25 passage, if I can just read it to you, from the witness's own statement
1 in relation to that document reads as follows, and I'll delete as
2 appropriate: "On the reverse side of this paper it states ...," and then
3 the name and telephone number that are recorded there appear, and the
4 statement goes on: "... which is the name and telephone contact number
5 of the person who has all the refugees' records."
6 In other words, the Prosecution were aware from November 2005
7 what the significance of that document was. The letter indicates that at
8 3.00 this afternoon, with the witness being due to testify later in the
9 afternoon, on closer examination it was noted that the name and telephone
10 number is there recorded. With the greatest of respect, that is an
11 extremely surprising way to put it, given that it was clear in a
12 November 2005 statement what that document was and what the telephone
13 number was.
14 JUDGE ORIE: You would have preferred after one year and a half
15 studying the document, we noticed that. Is that --
16 MR. EMMERSON: I'm surprised that it's closer inspection of a
17 document that was clearly very closely inspected in November 2005, that's
18 a rather strange way of putting it. But the letter goes on to indicate
19 that investigator Kelly has made contact with the person whose name and
20 telephone number appeared on that document, and describes the
21 organisation for which the person works. And then goes on to say that
22 that individual has a statement in his possession made in August 1999
23 from Witness 8, and that the person concerned is also aware that Witness
24 8 has provided the Humanitarian Law Centre with a statement. And the
25 Office of the Prosecutor says it cannot obtain either statement, it
1 appears, today and it can only be faxed tomorrow. Well, of course, the
2 witness will still be in the witness box tomorrow.
3 It goes on: "The statement may contain evidence relevant to the
4 witness's testimony" --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I perhaps put one question in between.
6 Do we know what language the statement still to be faxed is,
7 Mr. Re?
8 MR. RE: I can make the inquiry, but I can't tell you right now.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Fine.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
11 MR. EMMERSON: And there's then a promise to make a relevant
12 inquiry with the Humanitarian Law Centre. Once again, a rather
13 surprising suggestion, because if the author of this letter had turned
14 their attention to the statement of Witness 728, that is the outstanding
15 Humanitarian Law Centre witness, Your Honours will remember we had one,
16 the very first witness, and another who was postponed.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. EMMERSON: The author of this letter would have discovered
19 that the statement concerned is appended to the statement of Witness 728
20 and summarised in the body of the statement. It is, in fact, an unsigned
21 version of a statement made by Witness 8 to the MUP on the 24th of
22 December, 2001. We have a signed version of that statement, which has
23 been recovered from the Prosecution's material. So, so far as the
24 Humanitarian Law Centre is concerned, the Prosecution already has both
25 the original signed MUP statement and the unsigned version that was
1 handed by the MUP to Witness 728. They are the same document, and they
2 exist both in their original Serbian language and in English.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. EMMERSON: So in our submission, the appropriate course is to
5 proceed with this witness's testimony. No doubt Mr. -- the person whose
6 name appears on the document can be encouraged to make sure that the
7 statement is faxed as early as possible tomorrow. If it's not possible
8 to conclude the witness's testimony during the course of the day tomorrow
9 or if it's necessary to have him re-called to deal with that statement,
10 then that can be done.
11 But may I make it clear, and as the Prosecution themselves are
12 well aware and Your Honours will be aware when you read the statements
13 and proofing notes of this witness, there are already seven sets of
14 witness instructions or statements in existence for this witness which
15 are in themselves wholly and in many respects inconsistent with one
16 another. Yet another statement from him is unlikely to significantly
17 alter the course of examination-in-chief or cross-examination, and if it
18 does there is no reason why the witness cannot be either held over in
19 cross-examination until after the break or, indeed, re-called to deal
20 with it.
21 The alternative would be to call the witness whose number, I
22 believe, is 21, who is in The Hague, and in respect of whom the Defence,
23 certainly so far as I am concerned, are quite unable to deal with that
24 witness's evidence --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but apart from whether you are able to deal
1 with that. Mr. Re, if we would follow your suggestion, could we continue
2 after the present witness with Witness 21 today? We've still got two
3 hours left.
4 MR. RE: Could we continue -- I'm sorry --
5 JUDGE ORIE: The witness at present, I expect, that altogether
6 that we would finish with the witness in 30, 40 minutes, and then of
7 course we could start with the next witness. Would Witness 21 be
9 MR. RE: Witness 21 is not available today; he is only available
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed, I interrupted you.
13 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I should simply emphasise that I made
14 it clear on Monday to Mr. Re that preparation this week would be severely
15 hampered by any changes in the witness order, because both Witness 8 and
16 Witness 21 require a very, very considerable amount of out-of-court
18 As the week has progressed, it has become quite clear that it was
19 the Prosecution's intention to call Witness 8 and to call him today.
20 We're simply not in a position to deal with the evidence of Witness 21 in
21 any form, and as I understand it from Mr. Dutertre, he does not expect
22 that Witness 21's testimony could be concluded within one day, in any
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
25 Mr. Re, let's first, for procedural reasons, because we are
1 discussing at this moment something which is not on the record in any
2 way. The Prosecution is invited to file confidentially this letter,
3 which is a kind of a request letter, and let's not be more formal than --
4 the Chamber will consider the letter as a request for postponement of the
5 start of the testimony of Witness 8, so that we have at least the letter
6 later on the record. We all have it in front of us.
7 Would you please respond to -- but I should first -- I had no
8 answer yet, Mr. Emmerson, on whether you spoke on behalf of all Defence
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I join in the remarks made by Mr. Emmerson with
11 regard to both Witness 8 and Witness 21. Witness 21 is a witness who I
12 have indicated some time ago would be a long witness with regard to my
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Mr. Harvey.
16 MR. HARVEY: I also join in those remarks, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
18 Mr. Re, would you please briefly respond.
19 [Prosecution counsel confer]
20 MR. RE: The reason why I wrote a letter was because I could not
21 have filed an application in the time --
22 JUDGE ORIE: No.
23 MR. RE: -- and it was just to alert the Chamber and the parties
24 to our application foreshadowed.
25 The application is put mainly on the basis of the apparent 1999
1 statement which was basically brought to the attention of Mr. Kearney,
2 who is the lawyer who is taking the witness around 3.00 this afternoon,
3 upon closer review and reflection upon what was actually contained in the
4 witness's notes.
5 I've set out in the letter that Mr. Kearney made the connection
6 yesterday in proofing the witness when that name, which is in the letter,
7 was -- the full name -- the witness gave Mr. Kearney the full name
8 yesterday, but only one part of the name, the person's given name, is
9 actually in the note which is attached to the statement. And as
10 unfortunate as it is, it wasn't until a lawyer was reviewing it in some
11 depth in talking to the witness again --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I think the letter is clear enough on what
13 happened. Approximately -- we've heard a comment of Mr. Emmerson that --
14 at least a note, whether it contains the full name -- the Chamber would
15 like to focus on why the present situation would prevent the start of the
16 testimony of Witness 8, because that's, apart from some -- perhaps some
17 comments and remarks, surprises, let's not focus on -- let's focus on the
18 core issue, and that is why the present situation would -- would
19 necessarily mean that we would not start the testimony of Witness 8 and
20 lose another hour or one hour and a half in court.
21 MR. RE: Well, it's primarily on the basis that the information
22 we got this afternoon would -- if it comes through may present the most
23 relevant and cogent evidence of a person's first statement on a matter
24 relevant to the indictment if it were made in 1999 referable to events in
25 1998. The other statements - and the Trial Chamber has it now - are from
1 2001, 2004, 2005, I think, and 2006 and then again yesterday.
2 It is clear from the notes and the statements that the witness's
3 condition mentally may be declining over the years, and our assessment is
4 that the first statement he gave may well be the most accurate one, the
5 most reliable one, and one from which he may be able to refresh his
6 memory, if necessary, but we can't make that assessment without seeing
7 it. And we just, unfortunately, can't get it this afternoon because the
8 person who has it was not in a position to give it to us this afternoon,
9 was in a meeting and wasn't able to do it. That's the problem.
10 Now, in terms of lost court --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Let me ask one question. Are these statements given
12 for purposes of, I would say, investigation in terms of criminal
13 procedure or -- because it looks very much -- of course, we have seen
14 the -- through Witness Andjelkovic the kind of reporting to the
15 Humanitarian Law Centre, which, of course, is not that much focusing on
16 what an investigator would focus on if he was preparing for a file for a
17 criminal case.
18 MR. RE: The understanding we have, and it's only an
19 understanding, is that based on the employment of the person referred to
20 in the letter, it relates to refugee-type matters and situation. That's
21 a further inquiry we have to make. This was done fairly quickly this
22 afternoon, and we wanted to get the information before the Trial Chamber,
23 and it hasn't been done, I acknowledge, in ideal circumstances.
24 In terms of lost -- lost time in court, our view is that in the
25 circumstances we may lose an hour, maybe an hour and a half, in court if
1 it were to be adjourned this afternoon because Witness 21 is not
2 available. However, I understand that the Defence's view in relation to
3 cross-examining Witness 21, but Witness 21 can certainly give his
4 evidence-in-chief, and we were certainly intending to call him tomorrow
5 to give his evidence-in-chief, and we weren't anticipating he would be
6 cross-examined until after the Easter break anyway.
7 So in that sense, nothing really changes and we certainly
8 wouldn't oppose for the Defence asking for an adjournment tomorrow if we
9 reach the end of it and they felt they needed time to -- to prepare for
10 cross-examining that witness. So, in that sense, very little court time
11 would be lost in the scheme of things if you were to allow us to receive
12 the statement tomorrow and then make the assessment and call Witness 21
13 instead of Witness 8, just reverse the order, and we would then intend to
14 call Witness 8 after the Easter. Because Witness 21 would probably have
15 to come back after the Easter break anyway the way we're going, because
16 we have videolink on, I think, the 20 -- on the Tuesday after the Easter.
17 So, procedurally, our submission is it doesn't prejudice the
18 Defence and it can be handled -- we may lose an hour to an hour and a
19 half of court time. But ultimately, in our view or our submission, it
20 would -- may assist the Trial Chamber in getting to the truth because of
21 the things you will note in the witness's statement about differing
22 versions in relation to matters more peripheral to the core allegations
23 but may impact upon the reliability of the witness's evidence. If you
24 have the freshest and most contemporaneous statement, and maybe it could
25 be tendered into evidence, we don't know yet, in our submission it would
1 certainly assist the Trial Chamber in getting to the truth of the matter
2 and it's another statement for the Defence to have in their armoury, too,
3 in terms of cross-examination.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, well, there's some speculation in it not having
5 seen the statement and of course these are two different approaches. One
6 saying another inconsistent statement to say it unfrankly; and the other
7 one, this is the statement which will finally bring us to the truth
8 because it's the first one. Let me just confer with my colleagues.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, the request is denied. The Chamber expects
11 you to start the examination-in-chief of Witness 8. Of course, there's
12 another matter, then the protective measures, of course, first have to be
13 dealt with. But to start with that today, and you're invited as soon as
14 the Telefax copy of the statement arrives to disclose it as quickly as
15 possible to the Defence team.
16 Then I think we are at a point where we could ask the -- Madam
17 Usher to escort the witness into the courtroom.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honours, whilst that's being done, I'm going
19 to move on to some questions which require simultaneously to look at a
20 map and some documents, and since that's not feasible on the e-court
21 system, what I propose to do is to give the e-court references to the
22 documents, but to give Your Honours and the witness the documents in hard
23 copy so that the map can be on the screen. The --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Do you require the witness to make any markings on
25 the map?
1 MR. EMMERSON: It might be helpful. It might be helpful.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I don't see an usher.
4 JUDGE ORIE: These -- she left the courtroom in order to escort
5 the witness.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Of course.
7 [Defence counsel and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Will you be using one of the maps already in
9 evidence or new maps?
10 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, what I'm going to use is through the
11 e-court system, the large-scale map in the book of maps, which is at map
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. EMMERSON: But at the moment we haven't used that full-scale
16 [The witness takes the stand]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Antic, we'll continue.
18 Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.
19 MR. EMMERSON:
20 Q. Mr. Antic --
21 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting. I just
22 want to -- there's one matter concerning the document headed -- well,
23 with a number 0118465.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: That document should be dealt with in private
1 session --
2 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: -- and under seal. And I'd like it, if it's to be
4 tendered, the Prosecution says that it should be under seal and could we
5 have --
6 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much --
7 MR. DI FAZIO: -- private closed session.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much. That's very helpful.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
10 MR. EMMERSON:
11 Q. Just before I ask you some more general questions about military
12 engagements, at around the time that you were shot and that your father
13 disappeared, can I ask you just for one matter of detail about the
14 incident in which you were shot. And I'm looking at the moment at a
15 statement that records an interview with Slobodan Vukovic, who I think
16 was in the car with you. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And I just want to read to you a short extract and see if it's an
19 accurate reflection of what happened. It says: "This occurred near
20 Ljubenic on the road from Decane to Pec, about 4 kilometres from Pec ..."
21 That's the right location, isn't it?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. "Slobodan saw a man on the road in uniform, who was armed with an
24 automatic rifle. Slobodan did not specify what kind of uniform the
25 soldier was wearing, but he," that is the soldier, "motioned them," that
1 is the vehicle you were in, "to stop. With Slobodan Vukovic in the car
2 were Cedomir Pavlovic ...?"
3 Does that ring a bell?
4 A. No, nothing.
5 Q. Is that the name of the other police reservist, Cedomir Pavlovic?
6 A. I don't know either the first or the last name. He started
7 working less than a fortnight before that.
8 Q. So do I take it from that, you're not sure whether that is his
9 name or not?
10 A. I don't.
11 Q. Also in the car then was Momo Antic, which is I think you, and
12 Dimitrije Radovic --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, may I ask you one clarification. You
14 say that you're quoting -- you're looking at the statement that records
15 an interview with Slobodan Vukovic.
16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: And then we get in quotation marks on the screen:
18 "Slobodan saw a man on the road in uniform ..."
19 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Which is -- is the report such that --
21 MR. EMMERSON: It's in the third person --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- the one that drafted it --
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Exactly so, exactly so.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I understand. Yes, please proceed.
25 MR. EMMERSON:
1 Q. Again quoting: "Slobodan was from Rausic in the municipality of
2 Pec. Cedomir was from Bijelo Polje in Pec and Momo was from Decane."
3 And then this: "Slobodan told me that they hit something with their van,
4 but he was unsure if they had hit the man motioning them to stop or just
5 his rifle. The men continued on their way and they were opened fire
6 upon. Slobodan says that seven men fired upon the vehicle" -- I'm sorry,
7 "upon the van which was pierced in many places."
8 Now, I just want to be clear. You told us, I think, at one point
9 that the vehicle did hit one of the men. The account that I've just read
10 to you suggests that the man who was hit was motioning the vehicle to
11 stop, was either hit or his rifle was hit, the vehicle carried on, and it
12 was after that, that fire was opened upon the vehicle. Is that accurate?
13 A. Slobodan hit him with the rear part of the vehicle, and that man
14 had come out of the canal. He didn't hit his rifle, he hit him. He
15 couldn't open fire after that. If anyone had opened fire, there was
16 somebody who was with him in the canal. There was several of them, or
17 rather, more than just seven, and I saw them with my own eyes.
18 Q. That's helpful, but I just want to clarify one part of that
19 answer. Is it the case then that Slobodan hit this man with the vehicle
20 before the shots were fired?
21 A. Yes -- no. First there was fire when we came around the bend.
22 We left the first ambush, and right after that there was a soldier in
23 uniform with a weapon, and then Slobodan hit that man with the rear part
24 of the vehicle. He was not firing upon us. There may have been someone
25 else who had been there with him.
1 Q. But you're sure, are you, that shots were fired before he knocked
2 into the man in uniform?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. And --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, if you have dealt at least with this
6 small portion, I would like to seek some clarification.
7 Mr. Antic, you said the shots went under the car, they were bad
8 in handling their weapons. Could you tell us when the shooting started
9 before the car hit this person who came out of the canal - would you
10 please - did these first shots already hit the car, or was the car hit by
11 the shots only after the person had been -- the person who came out of
12 the canal had been hit by the car? So let me try to split that up --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As soon as they saw our uniforms,
14 they opened fire. There was no attempt to stop us or anything else.
15 First they opened fire upon the car, but I guess they were a bit
16 frightened. They looked away while they fired. After that, the bullets
17 went under the car. They only managed to pierce only one left tire, but
18 it was good luck for us that it was an all-wheel-drive vehicle and --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there for a second. Did the
20 shooting stop after you had hit this man who came out of the canal and
21 who was not firing at the car? Did it, the shooting, stop or did it
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, but on that same day, the 25th
24 of May when I was wounded, there was a commander when going to Streoc --
25 JUDGE ORIE: I'm -- I'll stop you there because I want to have
1 very focused information. When you say "yes," did you mean to say that
2 the shooting stopped or that the shooting continued after the car had hit
3 this person coming out of the canal?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We -- when we came upon that man
5 who came out of the canal, the shooting stopped; however, two to three
6 hours later there was firing again from the direction of the Streoc
7 mountain. There were -- there is a pine forest, and they killed a police
8 commander there.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But that was not at the same place at the same
10 moment. You said so once the car hit this person --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: -- the shooting for that moment for that place
13 stopped. Is that correctly understood?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you earlier said, And the bullets went all
16 under the car.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not all of them. Some hit the car
18 itself, some went under it.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And the car was hit already by the bullets before
20 this person was hit by the car?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. It was not a van. It was
22 a Golf passenger car, a small vehicle. It was not a van.
23 JUDGE ORIE: In my question in English the word "van" did not
24 appear, but let me then repeat the question. Was the car in which you
25 were already hit by the bullets before there was this collision where the
1 car hit the man coming out of the canal?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
4 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
5 MR. EMMERSON:
6 Q. And when you were injured, when the bullet struck your leg, was
7 that before or after the man had been knocked down?
8 A. After, when we were supposed to leave the place of ambush.
9 Q. So there was some firing that took place after the man was
10 knocked down, as you were leaving?
11 A. He was some hundred metres away from the place of the first
12 ambush. The one who came out of the canal, he didn't open fire.
13 Q. Okay. Let me just see finally if I can clarify this, because I
14 think I understand what you're saying, but see if I've got it right.
15 First of all, you were driving along the road, and you say some shots
16 were fired but luckily they only struck the tire. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Then the man came out and was knocked over. Is that correct?
19 A. I don't understand the question.
20 Q. After the tire of the vehicle had been struck, did the man then
21 get out of the canal and get knocked over?
22 A. No, after that. In the first ambush, they managed to hit a tire
23 and we could hear the bullets; but after the place of the first ambush,
24 perhaps a hundred metres away to the right-hand side, he was in the
25 canal. And as soon as he saw the car coming, he jumped on the road.
1 Q. Right. So that's much clearer. So, first of all, some bullets
2 were fired and all they hit was the tire. Then you drove on and, about a
3 hundred metres later on, an unarmed man in uniform stood in the road and
4 was hit; and after that, they opened fire on the vehicle and that's when
5 you were injured?
6 A. No, I was injured at the place of the first ambush. When we came
7 out of the curve, they were standing next to the road going to Decani.
8 As soon as they spotted our uniforms, they opened fire on the vehicle.
9 First they hit Dimitrije Radovic, and then leaving the place of ambush I
10 was hit by a fragmentation bullet. A hundred metres further down the
11 road, there was this soldier who had a weapon in his hand and who jumped
12 out on the road.
13 Q. I see. And as far as you could see from where you were sitting,
14 was he deliberately run over or was it an accident?
15 A. It was deliberate. He had a weapon.
16 Q. It was a war situation, I suppose?
17 A. Well, yes.
18 Q. Now, I want to ask you some more questions about what was going
19 on, on the ground, in terms of the broader war situation on the west side
20 of the main Peje to Gjakove road, because Lloqan is on the west side of
21 the main Peje to Gjakove road, isn't it?
22 A. [No audible response].
23 Q. Yes?
24 MR. EMMERSON: Could we have up on the screen, please, Rule 65
25 ter, Exhibit number 01006.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that will be number ...?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit D32, marked
3 for identification.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 I take it that you would want to tender that, Mr. Emmerson.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
7 Q. In a moment, you'll -- do you have a map on your screen in front
8 of you? Not yet?
9 JUDGE ORIE: It usually takes some time.
10 MR. EMMERSON: And if we can please enlarge it to the left-hand
11 side of the map, and I'm afraid what we need to do is to look a little
12 further down, so south of Peje, but further down still. And then pause
13 there, if you would, please.
14 Q. It's not as clear on the screen as ideal, although we, all of us,
15 I think, have access to a slightly crisper copy, other than you, I'm
16 afraid. Let me see if I can ask for your assistance for a moment. If we
17 focus in on Decane, which is --
18 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, just a little bit further north.
19 That's it. Stop there -- stop there, if you would.
20 Q. Immediately beneath Decane, do we see Lloqan, the village where
21 you lived?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I wonder if you could just help us with some other locations for
24 a moment, if you would. Can you see just to -- on the map just to the
25 left of the ring around Decane, a placed called Huljaj, H-u-l-j-a-j, so
1 to identify those locations?
2 A. That's further off from Decani.
3 Q. Yes. Could you just assist us by putting a circle around it,
5 A. I can't see it without my glasses. I can't see it without my
6 glasses --
7 MR. DI FAZIO: For the assistance of Mr. Emmerson --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: -- this witness experienced some difficulties
10 yesterday, and we had to get him special --
11 MR. EMMERSON: I see --
12 MR. DI FAZIO: -- eye spectacles from VWS --
13 MR. EMMERSON: I don't want to force the witness to strain his
14 eyes during the course of his testimony.
15 Q. But you see it there, can you, on the screen?
16 JUDGE ORIE: But the problem is that he said he couldn't see it
17 because he didn't have his glasses.
18 MR. EMMERSON: I thought a moment ago, he said that he did see
19 it. That's all.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Can you see --
21 MR. EMMERSON: Perhaps if we focus in a little --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if we focus in.
23 MR. EMMERSON:
24 Q. Do you see it there to the left of the ring around Decane,
25 H-u-l-j-a-j? Just south of the Bistrica River.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The earlier comment of the witness was --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There, there.
3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- that's further off from Decane, just out of
4 his general knowledge.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There it is.
6 MR. EMMERSON:
7 Q. Just for our assistance could you --
8 A. No, it's right there.
9 Q. Thank you very much. If we just look south of Lloqan on that
10 same screen, can you see a place called Slup, S-l-u-p? Do you see that,
11 just south of Lloqan? If you look immediately underneath Decane --
12 Lloqan, can you see a -- the word S-l-u-p, Slup?
13 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we could even more move in.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It might be this one.
16 MR. EMMERSON: If we just focus in for the witness, if we could,
17 please, on Slup and Voksa.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. EMMERSON: No, it can't be focused.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The last marking will be lost if we zoom in.
21 MR. EMMERSON: I see.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Drenovac, it's right there. What
23 exactly did you say? Slup?
24 MR. EMMERSON:
25 Q. Slup and Voksa.
1 A. Right there.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Now we moved. Could you please try to find again
3 Locane, who's now a little bit further up. Do you see Locane?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There it is, Voksa and Locane.
5 Locane, right there. Voksa, Slup.
6 MR. EMMERSON:
7 Q. Yes. Again, just so we're clear, these are two of the closest
8 villages to where you lived, aren't they?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And then if we just look a little bit further down just to
11 orientate ourselves - I won't ask you to mark it because we can look at
12 the map separately - but if we can just follow it down a little further
13 to Junik, and just to the right of Junik is there -- is there a village
14 there called Sac? Do you know that village, S-a-c? Just to the right of
15 Junik on the road leading towards the main Peje-Pristina road, just
16 outside the red mark, do you see Sac?
17 A. S-a-c --
18 Q. Yes, do you see that? Do you know that village?
19 A. It's not Sac, I can't remember what it was called.
20 Q. Very well. And if we could just for a moment move --
21 A. I've never heard of this village.
22 Q. I see.
23 A. Near Junik.
24 Q. Very well.
25 A. Sac.
1 Q. Very well. If we could just move a little bit further south
2 along the same road, please, until we reach Ponosevac. I just want to
3 identify some of the other villages along the way. Just pausing there
4 for a moment.
5 MR. EMMERSON: Could we just go up a little bit, keeping
6 Ponosevac at the bottom of the screen. Pause there.
7 Q. Now, I just want to ask you with one or two of these other
8 villages. You know Molic at the top of the screen there, right at the
9 very top along the yellow road? You know Molic?
10 A. I've heard of it, yes. I've never been there.
11 Q. And you know Brovina?
12 A. Heard of, yes.
13 Q. And Stubla?
14 A. Heard of.
15 Q. And Ponosevac?
16 A. Likewise.
17 Q. These are all villages along the road that leads directly to
18 Lloqan, aren't they? They're on the same road. We can follow that
19 yellow road all the way up to Lloqan, can't we?
20 A. Locane is quite far from Ponosevac. You must first head for
21 Junik and then for Voksa, and then from Voksa you go to Locane or the
22 other way around. Junik, Lastavica, Trilje [phoen], Crnora -- Donji,
24 Q. I understand. But they're all on the same road. This road, this
25 yellow road marked on the map, takes you all the way to Lloqan; yes?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Just one final location, if I can.
4 MR. EMMERSON: If we can just go up a tiny bit on the map just
5 above Molic.
6 Q. Pausing there, you see the village to the right there, Nivokaz?
7 You know that village as well?
8 A. Yes, yes. Nivokaz is near Junik. When you go from Junik to
9 Hrastica on the right-hand side.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Can we now move into closed session briefly,
11 please, Your Honour. Or private session, rather.
12 [Private session]
11 Pages 2470-2471 redacted. Private session.
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
8 MR. EMMERSON: For the record, the relevant document
9 identification number of the document that was shown in private session -
10 and this would obviously be tendered under seal - is 1D040172. Can I ask
11 that that be marked for identification under seal, please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D33,
14 marked for identification.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
16 MR. EMMERSON:
17 Q. The next document that I want to take you to, you have, I think,
18 in front of you as well. Could you just look at the other document
19 that's on the desk in front of you, please, Mr. Antic, because for that
20 we have the original Serbian, as well as the English translation, and
21 this is not a document that needs to be under seal or in private session.
22 It is document identification 1D040008, with an English translation
23 linked at 0009.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D34,
1 marked for identification.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
3 MR. EMMERSON:
4 Q. Now, Mr. Antic, this is an order that was issued the day before
5 your father disappeared, and it was issued by General Pavkovic, who you
6 probably have heard of, have you?
7 A. I don't think Pavkovic betrayed him. He didn't know Pavkovic at
9 Q. I'm sorry. You know who General Pavkovic is, don't you?
10 A. Yes, from TV.
11 Q. Yes. Just so that we're clear, he was in overall command of VJ
12 forces in Kosovo and was commander of the Pristina Corps 3rd Army. Is
13 that your understanding?
14 A. Yes, he was.
15 Q. This is an order that he issued on the 28th of May, very urgent,
16 personally to the commander: "Decision on engagement?"
17 And it reads as follows: "The 3rd BVP, Military Police
18 Battalion, with its main forces, is to increase the security on state
19 borders and secure the zone. Its auxiliary forces together with a tank
20 platoon are to carry out an attack in the following direction: The GPMI
21 border post."
22 And then this: "The village of Huljaj," that's the village that
23 we looked at earlier on, isn't it, which is just to the west of Decane.
24 A. [No audible response].
25 Q. The village of Locane, that's your village, isn't it, together
1 with a tank platoon. And then it says: "On stand-by at 4.00 in the
2 morning, 0400, on the 29th of May." Did you realise that the night your
3 father disappeared the VJ forces were launching an attack in Lloqan?
4 A. No, not in Locane.
5 Q. Well, that's the order that we have, Mr. Antic. Let's
6 continue --
7 A. Not in Locane.
8 Q. You can see it on the document in front of you, I think, can you?
9 Or is it not possible for you to read? You see Locane there? It's in
10 the second paragraph, first line in the Serbian. Do you see? Huljaj and
12 A. Yes --
13 Q. And then it continues: "With part of the forces, block the roads
14 in the following direction: Decane to the village of Locane, Slup Voksa
15 towards Junik, from the right side, from the Varic area?"
16 So the order, at least, that was being issued was for the road
17 from Decane to Lloqan to the blocked, and the roads to Slup and Voksa to
18 be blocked on that night. Did you know that?
19 A. No.
20 Q. And then just picking it up a little further down, a task is
21 recorded for the 2nd Battalion of the 52nd Mixed Artillery Brigade in the
22 area of Decane?
23 "For the purpose of supporting the MUP forces and the VJ units
24 in breaking and destroying the Siptar rebel forces, planned fire is to be
25 opened in the following areas: Skoze, Molic, Hordup, Molic stream,
1 Bljinista, Brovina, Nivokaz, and Stuble. Those are all the villages, I
2 think, we looked at a few moment ago on the map.
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. And then it was to be extended to Sac in the area of Junik, which
5 was the little village I think you said you didn't recognise the name of.
6 Were you aware that there was a major military assault taking place by
7 the Serbian forces, by the Yugoslav Army, all the way along that road,
8 including your own village, on the night that your father disappeared?
9 A. That is not true. I never heard of it, and it's just not true.
10 Q. Of course by then you were in hospital in Belgrade, weren't you?
11 A. Which month?
12 Q. The 28th of May, 1998. By then you were in hospital in Belgrade,
13 weren't you?
14 A. Yes, I was.
15 Q. Yes. And do you know anybody who you have spoken to who was in
16 that area on the 28th of May, that night, the 28th to the 29th that
17 you've personally spoken to?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Those are my questions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.
22 Mr. Guy-Smith.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: No questions. Thank you so much.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
25 MR. HARVEY: No questions, Your Honour. Thank you.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: No re-examination.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hoepfel has a question for you, Mr. Antic.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Antic, just to clarify the hour of this
6 ambush you described when there was the shooting on the road. Was it in
7 the morning or in the evening?
8 A. I was wounded. Is that what you mean?
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes, please.
10 A. It was in the morning, five minutes to 7.00.
11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I have one question for you as well, Mr. Antic. You
13 earlier spoke about Ramush Haradinaj's army, and then you were invited to
14 explain what you meant by that, and then you said that is the KLA. Is
15 there any -- do you have any personal knowledge that links the KLA to
16 Mr. Ramush Haradinaj? So I'm not talking about what you may have read in
17 the newspapers or what you may have seen on television. Do you have any
18 personal knowledge, any personal observation, which links Mr. Haradinaj
19 to the KLA?
20 A. Yes, because Ramush's army, his personal army, first wounded me
21 on the 25th of May, 1998. On the 28th, the evening of the 28th, again
22 his army, the KLA, took my father away. Vida Simic was across the way,
23 the headquarters, they sprayed it with bullets.
24 So what do you mean when you say I have no personal knowledge
25 since he was the greatest war criminal, and it's unimaginable the sort of
1 thing that he did. He didn't kill my father with a bullet. If he had
2 killed him with a bullet, God would have had mercy on his soul, perhaps.
3 Maybe it wasn't he who killed him personally. He was the commander.
4 Maybe it was his army that killed my father.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that this brings quite some
6 emotion to you. Thank you for this answer. I take it that the questions
7 of the Bench have not triggered any need for further questions.
8 Mr. Antic, you've answered all the questions of the parties.
9 You've answered the questions of the Bench. You came a long way. I'd
10 like to thank you for coming and for testifying before this Court. This
11 concludes your evidence and I wish you a safe trip home again.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
13 [The witness withdrew]
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to invite the parties to think about a more
15 efficient way of proceeding, especially the last episode with the maps.
16 I take it that it's fully in line with traditional and classical
17 introduction of evidence, but of course to go through all the villages
18 where the witness has a difficulty to see them and then him to say that I
19 heard about it but I don't know where it is; whereas, we have a clear map
20 in front of us, where the context was perfectly clear, I think, to the
22 So perhaps the last question should have been the first one; the
23 question being: Were you aware of any military operations including
24 so-and-so going on at the time. If the witness would say, No, I'm not
25 aware of that, then, of course, you couldn't introduce the documentary
1 evidence through this witness, but it might be material since, I take it,
2 that the authenticity is not challenged by the Prosecution. That could
3 have been presented from the bar table so that -- or even make
4 stipulations on the matter. But now we go through it quite some detail
5 with -- well, you can sometimes already expect approximately what
6 happens. Of course it should be properly put to the witness but whether
7 the way in which it was done was the most efficient way is another
9 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated]
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Then, Madam Registrar, we have documents introduced through the
12 witness marked for identification. We have -- if you could just read the
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, with this witness we had
15 document -- Exhibit Number D32, 33, and 34.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections, Mr. Di Fazio? I assume that they're
17 all tendered into evidence.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours --
19 JUDGE ORIE: D --
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, no, there's no objection apart from the one
21 that should remain under seal.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: There's one under seal, Madam Registrar, that
25 would -- that is number ...?
1 THE REGISTRAR: 33.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. D33 is under seal.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Other than that, no problems at all with their
4 full admission into evidence.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They are admitted into evidence, D33 under
7 Mr. Re, is the Prosecution ready to call its next witness, but
8 the Chamber would like to start the -- this witness in a different way.
9 We still have to deal with the -- with the request for protective
10 measures. The Chamber would like first to hear from the Defence, but the
11 Chamber might want to put some questions to this witness before we decide
12 on the request for protective measures.
13 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: We could cut matters short. The Chamber has asked
15 for a kind of informal notification of the position of the Defence. If
16 the Defence would be willing to file those e-mail messages under seal,
17 confidentially, then everything is on the record, we know what we're
18 talking about, and we don't have to invite the Defence to repeat what was
19 already briefly set out. If you would like to add anything, then we'll
20 turn into private session and you're invited to do so.
21 MR. EMMERSON: I have nothing to add.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- yes.
23 MR. EMMERSON: -- and we'll file the e-mail under seal.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Nothing to add. We'll file the e-mail under
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
3 MR. HARVEY: Excellent suggestion, Your Honours. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Re, you have seen the e-mail messages
5 which will now be filed confidentially. The Chamber would like to ask
6 perhaps one or two or three questions to the witness before deciding the
7 matter. Is there any need from you to add any observation at this
8 moment, or would you rather wait until we have put the questions to the
10 MR. RE: There is nothing from our perspective, and Mr. Kearney
11 will be dealing with the witness.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Then, Mr. Kearney, the question is now addressed to you. No need
14 at this moment.
15 Then we have to go into closed session.
16 [Closed session]
11 Pages 2481-2491 redacted. Closed session.
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has decided that the protective measures
19 are granted as sought; reasons to follow. I further suggest to the
20 parties that I deviate from what I said earlier, that is to ask the
21 witness to make another solemn declaration and just remind him that he,
22 also for this part of the proceedings, is bound by the solemn
23 declaration. I see there seems no objection to that.
24 Witness 8, you earlier gave a solemn declaration. That solemn
25 declaration that you will speak the truth still applies, and you will now
1 first be examined by Mr. Kearney, who's counsel for the Prosecution.
2 Mr. Kearney, you may proceed.
3 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honours, thank you very much.
4 At the outset, I wonder if I could ask the Trial Chamber to ask
5 the witness to take his headphones off for a moment, please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Witness 8, could you take off your headphones for a second?
8 Thank you.
9 Mr. Kearney.
10 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, thank you. Your Honours, as members
11 of the Trial Chamber may have noticed during the initial swearing-in
12 process of this gentleman, he is an older gentleman. He is somewhat
13 unsophisticated. The Prosecution believes his memory is failing. I
14 would invite counsel to make their comments in that regard, but I believe
15 that's the case. And given that, I am going to seek to narrow the scope
16 or the focus of my direct examination to several points that are directly
17 related to the gravamen of the counts, (redacted)
19 And I'm going to confine my examination to that based on his state right
21 Of course, I would invite -- the Prosecution would not object to
22 the Defence to cross-examine this witness on any subject they feel
23 appropriate. Obviously, the Court -- members of the Trial Chamber have
24 that same opportunity, but I just wanted to alert members of the
25 Trial Chamber that is my intent at this stage.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Mr. Emmerson.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if I might just make this observation.
4 Difficult as this process may prove to be, there are five witnesses in
5 this case who the Prosecution rely upon as giving direct testimony of my
6 client's participation in crimes; three of them have already given
7 evidence, this is the fourth.
8 I cannot confine cross-examination. I know what Mr. Kearney has
9 in mind. The proposal of the Prosecution is not to elicit from this
10 witness any evidence about his alleged visit to the Lake Radoniq canal or
11 to Hotel Pastrik, and I know the reason for it also is because the
12 accounts he has given both in writing and in his proofing sessions are
13 incredible and inconsistent with the facts. However difficult it may be,
14 cross-examination of this witness is going to necessarily take some time
15 and is necessarily going to need to traverse a fair amount of material so
16 that Your Honours are in a position to assess whether he's a reliable
17 witness because he's the only witness in respect of those counts.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think Mr. Kearney clearly indicated that his
19 approach would have no consequences for the scope of the
20 cross-examination by the Defence.
21 Mr. Kearney, to -- the Chamber had already considered whether or
22 not we should invite the Prosecution to -- perhaps not to limit its
23 examination-in-chief, but first to focus on what you consider to be the
24 most important elements, since you indicate now that you will do that
25 without being encouraged to do so. There's no need for the Chamber to
1 express any further thoughts about that.
2 Of course, you will also understand that on the basis of the
3 experience of the last 15 minutes in court, that the Chamber will, of
4 course, hear the evidence, but at the same time will give it some
5 consideration to what extent the evidence, we still do not know what is
6 there to come, whether it's such that it could assist the Chamber. We'll
7 closely monitor that but, of course, first of all hear the evidence as --
8 as it is given.
9 Then I take it that we can invite the witness to put on his
10 earphones again, or not yet?
11 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, there is one additional matter.
12 JUDGE ORIE: No, I think ...
14 MR. KEARNEY: We have prepared a document relating to this
15 gentleman's personal details, it's 65 ter 1218. Normally, at this stage,
16 I would ask the Trial Chamber to simply show it to the witness just to
17 have him read it to see if he agrees with it and --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it's impossible, it seems, at this moment
19 from -- at least from his earlier answers that ...
20 We'll then turn into private session if you read to him what is
21 on the pseudonym sheet, I take it.
22 MR. KEARNEY: Yes, I'd like to do that, if I may, please.
23 [Private session]
11 Page 2496 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
11 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.
12 Q. Witness 8, you said you were born in the Gjakove region of
13 Kosovo. Is that correct?
14 A. Yes, that's correct.
15 Q. How long did you live there?
16 A. I don't know how many years we have lived there, but from Cermjan
17 we went to Gjakove, and there we lived.
18 Q. Can you tell us, please, when you finally left Kosovo, were you
19 still living in the village of Gjakove at the time?
20 A. Yes, yes, for 16 years or so we lived in Gjakove, but now I
21 cannot tell you how many years have passed.
22 Q. And when you say that "we lived in Gjakove," who are you
23 referring to, please?
24 A. I refer to myself, to my brother, to the entire family.
25 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honours, I'm going to seek to elicit the name
1 of his brother at this point. Does the Court wish to go into private
2 session briefly or can we proceed?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'd rather keep it on the safe side.
4 [Private session]
11 Page 2499 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
22 MR. EMMERSON: There is one brief matter I need to raise. It
23 doesn't need to detain the witness.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but the witness cannot leave at this moment
25 without protective measures.
1 MR. EMMERSON: In which case, it is a matter that I ought to deal
2 with in private session.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we will return into private session.
4 Yesterday I'd forgotten to return into open session when we adjourned,
5 and that was a mistake.
6 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 I'll not make the same mistake as yesterday; that is, not to
13 return into open session before we adjourn. We stand adjourned until
14 tomorrow morning, 9.00, same courtroom.
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.06 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 5th day of
17 April, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.