1 Thursday, 5 April 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 Mr. Kearney, are you ready to continue your examination-in-chief?
12 Perhaps I'll then first -- Witness 8, yesterday you have given a solemn
13 declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
14 but the truth. Please be aware that this solemn declaration is still
16 Mr. Kearney, you may proceed.
17 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/08 [Resumed]
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 Examination by Mr. Kearney: [Continued]
21 Q. Witness Number 8, good morning.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. When we left off yesterday, you made the following statement,
24 this is at page 91 of the transcript, line 22, you said yesterday that:
25 "We were on a bus, I, my brother, and a friend. Isuf was near the door.
1 I was behind. This person came there and said, You should come down
2 because we have something to ask you about. And then they put them in a
3 vehicle and I never saw them anymore."
4 I want to ask you first: Do you remember testifying to that
5 yesterday? Is that correct?
6 A. Yes, correct.
7 Q. I'd like to now ask you some more questions about that statement,
8 including this first one. Where were you, your friend, and your brother
9 Isuf going on the bus that day?
10 A. To Pristina.
11 Q. Why were you going to Pristina that day, Witness Number 8,
13 A. We were going to Pristina to do some shopping for myself and for
14 my family.
15 Q. Do you remember anything about what time of day it was? What
16 time you left to go to Pristina that day? Was it day-time? Was it
18 A. It was day-time.
19 Q. And where did your trip begin that day? Where were you leaving
20 from on your way to Pristina?
21 A. We started from Gjakove, and we proceeded to Malisheve and then
22 to Prishtine. This was the shortest route.
23 Q. Now, you told us yesterday that this -- this trip took place in
24 1998. I want to ask you if today you can remember when in 1998 this was.
25 Do you remember what month it was?
1 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know. I wouldn't lie.
2 Q. Do you remember making a statement about this to the MUP back in
3 1998 -- I'm sorry, back in 2001, Witness Number 8?
4 A. The person who knew these things told me in detail, and we made
5 this statement.
6 Q. Do you remember when you made the statement that -- this is to
7 the MUP in 2001, that you mentioned this incident happened in May of
8 1998. Do you remember that, sir?
9 A. I don't know the date.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, the answer in relation to the person
11 who knew these things, that's not entirely clear. Could you please seek
13 MR. KEARNEY:
14 Q. Witness 8, in your previous answer you mentioned that -- when I
15 asked you about making a statement in 2001, you mentioned a person who
16 knew these things. Who were you referring to?
17 A. That person told me that this is what has happened, and you can
18 proceed with this matter. You can take them to court, and I said to him
19 that I'm determined to look for my family, to find them.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MR. KEARNEY: And with the Court's permission, I'm going to move
22 on if I may.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's still unclear to me, and it's, of course,
24 a vital matter whether -- during that interview who had the information
25 and who gave it to whom. That's a rather vital matter, isn't it?
1 MR. KEARNEY: I'll inquire further.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. KEARNEY:
4 Q. Witness 8, you mentioned that you talked with someone and they
5 said that you can proceed with this matter, you can take them to court.
6 And you mentioned to him: "I said to him that I'm determined to look for
7 my family."
8 First of all, who is it you're having this conversation with, if
9 you can tell us, please?
10 A. Rame Karavata was his name. He was a refugee just like us. I
11 asked him about these matters, and he said to me, You better make a
12 statement and perhaps you can find your family. And I said that I will
13 do my best to find my family.
14 Q. When he suggested to you that you should make a statement, did
15 you tell him about what happened on the bus or did he tell you what
16 happened on the bus?
17 A. He knew. He was a kind of a leader, our leader. As I was
18 without any education, I was not familiar with these proceedings, so I
19 asked him what would be the best way to find my family.
20 Q. And after you said that, did you tell -- did you tell Rame what
21 you had seen and heard on the bus in Malisevo that day?
22 A. There was no need for me to tell him anything. That was
23 something that had already happened. He just said to me, Take them to
24 court and look for your family. Do your best to find them.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, it's still not entirely clear.
1 Witness 8, you said there was no need to tell him, but Rame had
2 not seen it himself, did he?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told him what had happened so
4 that he could help me find my family. So he advised me to go to court,
5 and I sought advice from him. I asked him what would be the best thing
6 for me to do.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
8 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. I want to ask you, Witness 8, you mentioned that there was --
10 besides your brother and yourself on the bus, there was a friend with
11 you. Who was that friend?
13 Q. What ethnicity was -- was he?
14 A. He was an Albanian married to a Serbian woman.
15 Q. At the time of this incident on the bus, what was his occupation,
16 if you know, please?
17 A. He was playing lottery with my brother. They were in each
18 other's company.
19 Q. Did your friend have a -- not your brother now. Did your friend
20 have a job back then?
21 A. He was not employed, so he was betting, playing lottery, just to
22 make some money to provide for his family.
23 Q. And how about your brother? Was he employed then? Did he have a
25 A. My brother was a tailor.
1 Q. Now, please tell us in more detail, if you could, about what
2 happened when the bus got to Malisevo, please.
6 JUDGE ORIE: May I stop you.
7 First of all, I would like to have a redaction.
8 Mr. Kearney, yesterday Mr. Emmerson drew our attention to perhaps the
9 necessity of hearing quite a lot of the evidence in private session. I
10 think what now happens demonstrates that it might be wiser. There's no
11 application for closed session as a whole. At least I'd like to turn
12 into private session now, and I'd like you to consider what's the
13 appropriate way of proceeding.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 2509-2597 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in open session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 Witness 8.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.
25 JUDGE ORIE: You have been in court for a couple of hours.
1 You've told us already a lot. You -- we observed that some matters are
2 very much on your mind, whereas you found it difficult to answer or
3 answer again other questions. The Chamber has decided that for the time
4 being and since we have a week starting on from today that we are not
5 sitting, that we'll not continue your examination as a witness. The
6 Chamber will consider - and that might take quite some time - whether or
7 not we'll continue at a later date. You've answered already all the
8 questions of the Prosecution. There might be more questions from the
9 Defence, there might be more questions from the Chamber, but it's also
10 possible that we are satisfied for the time being with the testimony you
11 have given until now. So therefore, I take it --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, sir.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I take it that the witness will return
14 to the place where he resides? I take it that must have been planned
16 MR. KEARNEY: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 So therefore, at this moment we'll not put further questions to
19 you, and you'll be informed whether at a later stage we'd like to
20 continue. Do you understand that?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem with me. Whenever you
22 call me, I will be ready. I will respond to your call immediately, but
23 you should bear in mind that I'm a poor man. I'm only concerned about
24 the children of my brother's son. I'm doing my best to provide for them.
25 I search rubbish bins, whatever it takes, just to be able to secure a
1 crust of bread for them.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber fully understands that you're
3 living in circumstances which you describe as poor and not easy.
4 Since there is a possibility that we would re-call you at a later
5 stage, you're instructed not to speak with other persons about the
6 testimony you have given or testimony you possibly will give in the
7 future. Have you understood that?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will not speak at all with
9 anybody; however, I appeal to the Albanian people not to do me any harm
10 because I'm all alone now.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Human beings should not do any harm to each
12 other. That is a -- that may be clear.
13 I then will now ask Madam Usher to escort you out of the
14 courtroom, and in case we might not see you again, I would like to thank
15 you that you have come to The Hague and that you gave your testimony.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. I agree with
17 whatever you say. I don't have anything against your words.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You were with --
22 MR. EMMERSON: Number 2.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Should we return into private session or not? I don't know
25 what's on your list remaining.
1 MR. EMMERSON: There's one -- there's one matter --
2 JUDGE ORIE: You indicate when we have the need to go into
3 private session.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I think -- I think not, in fact.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
6 MR. EMMERSON: The second was -- concerned the evidence of
7 Zvonko Markovic and the statement of his brother Rade. That statement
8 was neither exhibited nor marked for identification, and the matter was
9 left at the end of his evidence on the basis that Mr. Di Fazio was to let
10 me know whether the Prosecution was prepared to make a stipulation about
11 the passage in the statement or whether the whole of the statement was to
12 be exhibited. So that's something which needs to be --
13 JUDGE ORIE: So a response still to be expected from
14 Mr. Di Fazio.
16 MR. EMMERSON: Thirdly, the notebooks of Marijana Andjelkovic.
17 My understanding had been that the Trial Chamber had directed the
18 Prosecution to resurvey a complete set Marijana Andjelkovic's notebooks
19 in proper translation and in proper order. And what I think the
20 Prosecution has proposed is a selection from the translations that were
21 in existence at the time that she gave evidence. What we need to have is
22 a solid base from which to work of all of her notebooks, so that we know
23 that we're using the same pagination and the same correct order, and then
24 once we have that to be able to propose which passages from those
25 notebooks should come before the Trial Chamber in terms of admitted
1 evidence. So --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Most important was that the matters would be
3 re-arranged in such a way that it would avoid whatever confusion --
4 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- and that it would be unambiguous as to paging,
6 translations, et cetera.
7 MR. EMMERSON: I think the Prosecution has jumped straight to the
8 next stage and simply made some proposals of passages from the existing
9 misordered translations unless I've misunderstood the position.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I would encourage -- I would encourage further
11 contact between the parties to see whether they can sort it out; if not,
12 then, of course, the Chamber will give a ruling on what steps that would
13 be needed to be taken.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Your Honour asked for a response from us on
15 that and our response is we stand ready to indicate which passages we
16 would like exhibited and which ones we object to, as soon as we are clear
17 that we have what the Prosecution says is the final translation of the
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I'm not pressing any response at this
20 moment, but at least drawing your attention to the issue.
21 MR. RE: I thought that what we put into e-court was the
22 re-arranged ones, but I will certainly check. That was my understanding.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Try to -- try to communicate in such a way that you
24 understand why Mr. Emmerson thinks that it's not the intended re-arranged
25 material and why you think it is. And then --
1 MR. EMMERSON: Next, item number 4, there were two exhibits
2 left - if I may put it this way - floating, P30 and D30, and the question
3 was should they be admitted under seal or not.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. EMMERSON: P30, as we understand it, is a DNA record, a
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. EMMERSON: And, obviously, if it is to be admitted, then it
9 is to be admitted under seal. We are entirely neutral about whether it
10 is admitted at all but as I've indicated repeatedly all DNA results are
11 agreed, and for my part I'm not sure what assistance the Trial Chamber
12 will derive from the sheet.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's now in the system, et cetera. It might take
14 less time to -- to have it admitted than to further discuss on whether it
15 should be admitted or not.
16 MR. EMMERSON: D30 was --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. EMMERSON: -- an exhibit which Your Honours specifically
19 asked us to focus upon to determine whether it might have closed material
20 on it. My understanding is D30 is the set of proofing notes for
21 Mijat Stojanovic. If that understanding is correct, there is nothing as
22 far as we are aware in those proofing notes that requires them to be
23 placed under seal. I think it may be that Your Honour had in mind a
24 record of a proofing session with a witness who was a protected witness
25 subsequently. But if D30 is as we believe it to be, the proofing notes
1 for Mijat Stojanovic, then as far as we are aware there is nothing that
2 requires it to be admitted under seal.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it is a Defence exhibit although in
4 relation to a Prosecution witness.
5 Mr. Re, could you immediately give your position or ...
6 MR. RE: My understanding is Mr. Emmerson is entirely correct.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, I have not reviewed every detail of
8 it, whether there is any information in the proofing notes which would
9 need protection.
10 You've carefully considered that, Mr. Emmerson?
11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I don't remember there being any aspect of
12 his evidence at all that was closed --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. It's admitted into evidence.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MR. EMMERSON: Item 5, forensic admissions. We are now in a
17 position to provide to the Prosecution a complete response to all
18 suggested admissions as regards the recovery of remains, the process of
19 DNA identification, and the post-mortem findings of the international
20 forensic pathologists. They will have that today.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
22 MR. EMMERSON: And then the next item is unofficial translations
23 of the reports that were put by the Defence in cross-examination to
24 Stanisa Radosevic. Your Honour asked for an update. Those documents are
25 with the translation unit as we speak.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. EMMERSON: And finally, there is the Prosecution's motion for
3 a direction that there be further particulars provided by Mr. Balaj in
4 relation to his pre-trial brief. Whilst this is an application directed
5 to Mr. Balaj, it is one in which all parties have an interest because it
6 proceeds from a certain assumption about what should or should not be
7 pleaded in a pre-trial brief, and so we will want to submit our own
8 response. We have to organise a timetable. The suggestion is three days
9 after we return.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know when you return, Mr. -- after we return
11 to court?
12 MR. EMMERSON: I'm saying three days after we sit. Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: After we sit. Yes.
14 Any problem with that? Then that time-limit is accepted.
15 Any other matter? Mr. Re.
16 MR. RE: Just one matter and that is to facilitate these sorts of
17 discussions about administrative matters, it would greatly assist us to
18 get a list in advance of all these matters, and I would be able to
19 address the Trial Chamber on the spot. When things are thrown at me
20 about various things over the last few months, I just can't -- can't deal
21 with them as I sit here, because it takes -- takes a while to research
22 some of these things.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Guy-Smith.
24 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, we've obviously -- these are all
25 matters that have been raised in court over the last few weeks, and I'm
1 simply drawing the threads together before we break for Easter.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: There is the specific matter of the upcoming
4 witness, that is Witness 21 --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- with regard to any information that has been
7 received from UNMIK, and I am at the moment limiting -- limiting the
8 inquiry to that specific witness because I believe that individual is the
9 next witness in order.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Next witness is Witness 21, if I'm --
11 MR. RE: I can answer to this extent. We have received no formal
12 response from UNMIK in relation to that particular witness. UNMIK has
13 informed us informally that no witness statements exist in relation to
14 the war crimes unit. There are none in UNMIK's war crimes unit.
15 JUDGE ORIE: And in the unit crimes against humanity or unit of
16 grave breaches? I'm -- no, I'm just wondering -- it's not a play of
17 words, Mr. Re.
18 MR. RE: There are -- I'm told. I'm reading from an e-mail here.
19 There are five different units: A serious crimes unit, a war crimes
20 unit, an investigations unit, a counter-terrorism unit, a financial
21 crimes and economic crimes unit.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. RE: We have directed our inquiries across the board in
24 relation to all of the units. The informal telephonic response we have
25 received related to the war crimes unit, which was the most logical place
1 to start looking. The RFA remains -- remains outstanding, we are in
2 contact and were in contact with UNMIK by telephone today asking them to
3 speed it up.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course it could be -- investigation units
5 might be a place where you could sometimes find materials as well. But
6 let's not -- I mean, we can't resolve the matter here at this point.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, I don't believe we can. I notice that Mr. Re
8 limited his remarks with regard to what he has been informally told to
9 witness statements existing. I don't know whether or not he has received
10 any information concerning any Rule 68 material or any other materials,
11 and I don't want to -- I don't want to beat the horse, but I also don't
12 want to be in a position where we are misunderstanding each other with
13 regard to --
14 JUDGE ORIE: What is asked for.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- what is asked for. That's correct.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. I take it that you are able to discard any
17 malcommunication in this respect?
18 MR. RE: We have asked UNMIK formally in an RFA, the Defence has
19 seen it, I've shown him a copy of it or statements relating to those -
20 whatever it was - four or five witnesses. That's what Mr. Guy-Smith
21 requested; that is what we have asked of UNMIK.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
23 MR. RE: We have also informally by telephone asked an UNMIK
24 official about statements. We do not have the information. I cannot
25 answer that.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's limited now until -- to two statements, from
2 what I -- so try to resolve that --
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I formally request right now that -- that he ask
4 for Rule 68 information and for any other pertinent information that may
5 exist in the investigator files, so there's no misunderstanding in the
6 time that we have before this particular witness does appear.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: And that will be the request that is always made.
9 JUDGE ORIE: I couldn't say that pertinent information is --
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do --
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- is the clearest criteria. But, okay, I take it
12 that you will communicate in such a way that the Chamber is not -- that
13 not -- your malcommunication or misunderstandings are put to the Chamber,
14 but the real problems that are remaining. I have full confidence that
15 you will be able to do that. I'm addressing, of course, both parties.
16 MR. RE: Mr. Guy-Smith wrote to us last week asking for that, and
17 I have responded saying, please specify what you mean by pertinent
18 information and what you want us to ask UNMIK. Asking us to ask UNMIK
19 for Rule 68 material is a nebulous request; we cannot do it. I don't
20 know what the Defence means by Rule 68. Without knowing what Mr. Balaj's
21 defence is, it's extremely difficult for us to frame even searches within
22 the OTP's evidence collection. So how can we possibly --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not -- let's not continue. Next Tuesday if
24 you have semantic problems with each other or even -- I'll -- although
25 we're not sitting, everyone is welcome to come to The Hague and if need
1 be parties can always ask for a meeting in Chambers and then you -- I can
2 be the spectator of -- I think the message is clear. Yes.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I was going to move on -- I was going to move to
4 another issue, and that deals with the specific issue of translation of
5 documents that specifically deal with military experts that we have yet
6 to -- have yet to receive, and those would be translation of documents
7 that are contained in the information of Bozidar Delic and of the
8 information of Mr. Stijovic.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: And this is something that's been pending for
11 some period of time, I just don't know what the status is of that.
12 However, I can assure you that the information, as we understand it, is
13 voluminous and is information that is critical for purposes of
14 preparation for cross-examination of these military witnesses.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and I take it you give Mr. Re an opportunity to
16 check that and then to inform you by e-mail, and if need be that if the
17 translations are not immediately available --
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Those are my issues.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Mr. Harvey.
21 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I haven't taken the complete vow of
22 silence in relation to this case; however, I am satisfied that my
23 colleagues have raised all of the matters that concern me, and I am very
24 particularly concerned about the military matters that Mr. Guy-Smith has
25 just referred to.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. HARVEY: That request for translation has been outstanding
3 for a long time. We were promised -- I'm sorry to prolong this. We were
4 promised draft translations. We said we'd be very happy to accept draft
5 translations, and we're still waiting over a month later.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I notice that we are half an hour over
7 time, which is almost impossible for interpreters and technicians.
8 MR. EMMERSON: I have nothing of any substance to add. Simply
9 this, we will discuss with the Prosecution immediately after court the
10 list of witnesses that they are proposing to call after the break and
11 ensure that the Trial Chamber is informed within the next 24 hours or so.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there's nothing else, then I especially
13 would like to thank the interpreters for their -- not only for their
14 patience but also for their hard work half an hour more than we could
15 expect from them, same for the technicians.
16 We will not sit next week. That means that we will - the
17 Registrar has given it to me - we will resume at Monday, the 16th of
18 April, quarter past 2.00, in Courtroom II. And we -- yes, this is
19 announced in open session.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.19 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Monday, the 16th day of April,
22 2007, at 2.15 p.m.