1 Monday, 23 April 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.19 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
7 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Madam Registrar.
9 Good afternoon to everyone in and around this courtroom. If I
10 may add to the -- especially to Mr. Gosnell, new Legal Officer on the OTP
11 team, and Mr. Byrne, who is an intern on the OTP team.
12 Mr. Emmerson.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, there's one procedural issue I need
14 to raise with Your Honours first thing, and it relates to a witness who
15 is listed to testify tomorrow morning. There has been an exchange of
16 correspondence with the Chamber as well as with the Prosecution. Can I
17 summarize the Prosecution thus --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would let you do so, Mr. Emmerson, but at
19 the same time the Chamber has tried to assess what time would be needed
20 for the present witness and wonders whether if certain cross-examination
21 of the next witness would certainly not start by tomorrow from what we
22 now understand, whether that would give any opportunity to resolve the
24 MR. EMMERSON: The short answer to that is not -- not -- put in
25 those terms, no, but it may be that if we were in a position to persuade
1 you that the right course was not to start cross-examination until
2 Thursday of that witness, then it is possible that the matter can be
3 resolved to this extent: There are seven documents in the disclosure
4 batch which at the moment remain only in B/C/S or Albanian. It is
5 obviously difficult at this stage to know whether those documents might
6 have a real bearing on cross-examination or not. If we have sufficient
7 time between now and Thursday to get at least a gist translation, we will
8 be in a position to know by then whether that material is material which
9 could have a significant impact on cross-examination or not.
10 What -- if I may sketch in the timetable briefly. I won't
11 trouble you with the details of the disclosure batch, save that there's
12 400 pages of material. We've obviously had over the weekend to prepare
13 for this witness and also to put written filings in on Witness 8 which
14 are available to the Tribunal this morning or this afternoon.
15 The reality is that to assimilate and prepare that much of this
16 material which is in English and to have understood it as the thrust of
17 that, which is in B/C/S and Albanian, will in my estimation, take a good
18 day at least of non-court time.
19 Now, if -- if this witness is likely to be three hours or perhaps
20 a little more in chief, and cross-examination of him is likely,
21 therefore, to go into tomorrow, I would be in Your Honours' hands as to
22 whether, in those circumstances, we rose at that point and then have the
23 examination-in-chief of the witness we are concerned about on Wednesday
24 and cross-examination on Thursday, or whether we proceeded immediately to
25 the examination-in-chief of that witness on Tuesday and then had
1 cross-examination on Thursday. But either way, there will - in order for
2 us to be in a position to do justice to this volume of material - need to
3 be at least two half days of non-sitting time between now and then for us
4 to be able to be in a position properly to prepare that material.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to put it to you that way, but I don't
7 really see an alternative.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, then -- other Defence counsel, I take
9 it, at least that you share the views expressed by Mr. Emmerson.
10 Sometimes matters resolve themselves, the -- although not very lucky
11 experience with the time taken in examination-in-chief might lead to a
12 situation in which the matter will be resolved. If not, of course, then
13 the Chamber will have to decide.
14 At the same time, the Chamber keeps in mind that Friday is a non
15 sitting day, from what I remember. Next week we're not sitting, so
16 therefore the Chamber also has to keep on eye on not keeping a witness
17 here forever.
18 The matter is clear. We'll look at the matter. We'll see
19 whether we leave it some time to see whether it resolves itself or
20 whether we already at this time intervene. But the problem is perfectly
21 clear to the Chamber.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: It -- I've heard and -- what the Trial Chamber has
25 said and that's all very clear. It might be -- it might be, however,
1 practical to revisit this -- this issue perhaps towards the end of the
2 day. I don't know what the situation is with the personal details of the
3 remaining two witnesses and travel plans or anything of that nature that
4 might have been made that may impact upon your decision-making on this
5 issue. And I feel more re-assured if the Prosecution were in a position
6 to address you upon that. If necessary, later in the day, I can confer
7 with Mr. Re during one of the breaks and see if there's anything that we
8 can add to this discussion. I just wanted to reserve the opportunity to
9 speak to you about this issue later.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
11 MR. DI FAZIO: If necessary.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any third witness scheduled for this week?
13 MR. DI FAZIO: That was my understanding. That was my
14 understanding, you see, and the question arises what do we do with that
15 person and arrangements to be made and so on.
16 MR. EMMERSON: There was a third witness who was planned for this
17 week there was an application in respect of him for a subpoena because he
18 was an unwilling witness. Your Honours may recall he is a witness who is
19 resident in a jurisdiction not far from here. So that if it is necessary
20 for his evidence to be postponed to some later stage, geographically I
21 can't imagine that would represent a further problem.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that. Parties are encouraged
23 to further discuss the matter later this afternoon. The Chamber will
24 intervene to the extent necessary.
25 Mr. Di Fazio --
1 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry --
2 JUDGE ORIE: There are two matters --
3 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry, Your Honours, to -- to break the news.
4 I'm just been instructed that Mr. Emmerson's proposal is okay with us, so
5 there you go. My fears don't arise and it seems that --
6 JUDGE ORIE: And no problems with the 125 hours, Mr. Di Fazio --
7 of course this trial is apart that -- it's pleasant to hear that you do
8 not oppose Mr. Emmerson's request, but at the same time, of course, the
9 Chamber becomes more and more concerned about how much time this case
10 will take.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't want any repercussions to fall upon the
12 Prosecution by its being amenable to Mr. Emmerson's proposal. We don't
13 want to lose any time as a result of that. If there are to be such
14 repercussions then I think the matter needs to go back to Mr. Re and we
15 can address it further.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so, because being generous in granting
17 additional time to Mr. Emmerson does not resolve the matter of -- I
18 mean --
19 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The 125 hours are meant to be 125 hours while using,
21 in an optimal way, the time available in court. It's not just to take
22 off for one or two days and then say well, now we had another three or
23 four hours. May that be clear and if you would further have to discuss
24 this with Mr. Re, we'll hear from you.
25 There are two pending procedural matters that I would not like to
1 fully discuss at this moment but just to raise. The one is the exhibits
2 for Andjelkovic. On the 23rd of March the OTP has said that it would
3 re-organise the exhibits which were initially used during the testimony
4 from Andjelkovic on the 6th and on the 7th of March. Finally, the
5 Prosecution -- the Defence raised some issues as to the re-organised
6 exhibits that was on the 5th of April, after these exhibits had been
7 presented to the Defence. The Trial Chamber then has encouraged further
8 contact between the parties to resolve the matters. And on the 18th of
9 April, we do understand that there was a proposal now to tender into
10 evidence the re-ordered diaries of Andjelkovic, as indicated there in
12 Before we proceed, are the concerns expressed by Mr. Emmerson on
13 the 5th of April, have they been resolved in this newly organised
15 MR. EMMERSON: I ought to be in a position to answer that
16 question, and I regret to say that I'm not. Is this -- is this an issue
17 if --
18 JUDGE ORIE: No problem if you would pay attention to it --
19 MR. EMMERSON: Absolutely --
20 JUDGE ORIE: -- and inform the Chamber as soon as possible so
21 that we would know whether there would be quite a debate on the admission
22 of these documents or whether the parties seem to have no great problems.
23 MR. EMMERSON: May I say, I don't think there's likely to be any
24 debate in principle. The issues go simply to first of all ensuring
25 accuracy and chronological sequence. And secondly, ensuring that we only
1 put in those parts of the transcripts on which either the witness has
2 given evidence or one or other party wishes to rely. It's a managerial,
3 I think, rather than principles dispute on all sides.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I see nodding "yes" of three heads -- three lead
5 counsel heads. So therefore, the Chamber would like to be informed
6 relatively soon, although it's not a very urgent matter, whether or not
7 all the practical problems have been resolved, so that we can finally
8 decide on admission into evidence.
9 Then we have another matter, that is the Trial Chamber's request
10 for -- address to the Office of the Prosecution for information on the
11 security situation concerning witnesses in Kosovo. The last move in this
12 respect was that on the 17th of April, the Trial Chamber agreed to give
13 the parties two -- one or two more days before further responding to
14 the -- to the latest proposals. That -- one or two days are passed.
15 MR. EMMERSON: The position is, as it was, I regret to say, on
16 the last occasion, the Defence have made their position clear to the
17 Prosecution; namely, that in respect of witnesses falling within the
18 second category where no threats have been issued, providing criteria one
19 and two are met, there will be no objection to protective measures.
20 My understanding -- and I'm not binding anybody, from my
21 understanding from my discussion with Mr. Re is that that is not likely
22 to be a state of affairs that the Prosecution opposes; in other words,
23 there's likely to be agreement between the parties, but he was to come
24 back to me formally on that, and I think it may be one of those matters
25 that slipped down his agenda and [indiscernible] we may need to come back
1 to that.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So we would like to be informed about it as
3 soon as possible whether the -- whether the one or two days have resulted
4 in at least an agreement between the parties on the third criteria, and
5 then, of course, as I said before, the Chamber will consider whether
6 that's acceptable for us as well.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Would it be okay if we addressed you at the close
8 of this witness's testimony on this issue?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, yes. Yes. The present witness doesn't require
10 any protective measures -- the witness now to be called doesn't require
11 any protective measures --
12 MR. DI FAZIO: No.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- so, therefore, even if it would be tomorrow, that
14 would be no major problem.
15 Then, Mr. Di Fazio, are you ready to call your next witness?
16 MR. DI FAZIO: I am, but there's just a procedural matter --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: -- that's -- that's troubling the Prosecution and
19 that -- it's this: As you -- as the Trial Chamber is aware, the
20 testimony of this witness is intended to be led as a mixture of oral
21 evidence and written evidence under Rule 92 ter. And in the principal
22 written sources -- or the two written sources of his evidence are to be a
23 statement from the year 2005, and another one taken more recently in
24 April of this year, 2007. So I want to show the witness the -- his
25 statements and get him to identify them and comply with the criteria
1 mentioned in paragraph 92 ter.
2 The problem that I'm -- that's exercising my mind is: Do -- does
3 the Trial Chamber want redacted versions of the statements with the part
4 of the test -- part of the -- the topics that I intend to lead oral
5 evidence on blacked-out or redacted or removed from the -- from the
6 witness statement; or would you prefer that the entire statement is
7 produced to the witness, and then oral evidence taken above and in
8 addition to and in conjunction with what is already written in the
10 Now, I -- we're in a position to do both, and whatever the Trial
11 Chamber prefers we seek your guidance on that --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: -- on that -- on the manner in which we should
14 approach this.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
16 MR. EMMERSON: I think, as a general principle, our position is
17 and will remain that the function of a 92 ter statement is to place
18 before the Trial Chamber in written form evidence which is not going to
19 be the subject of oral testimony, as was done, for example, with
20 Witness 21, so that there was a written statement up to a certain point
21 in time and, thereafter, the evidence was taken chronologically.
22 At the very least, there should be a clear indication to all
23 concerned which parts of the statement are to be taken as entered into
24 the record pursuant to 92 ter and which parts of the statement are before
25 the Trial Chamber as no more than an indication, as with any other
1 witness statement, of what passages in -- of what the witness might be
2 going to say in oral evidence.
3 It does seem to me, with respect, that one way or another there
4 must be a clear delimitation between what is and what is not being
5 admitted 92 ter. And if the position is that there are certain
6 paragraphs of these statements which the Prosecution is not tendering 92
7 ter but simply placing before the Trial Chamber as an indication as with
8 other witness statements that the Trial Chamber sees of what the witness
9 might say, that would fall under the rubric of what Your Honour
10 Judge Orie indicated in advance was, in effect, material that once the
11 witness had testified would be discarded, and so there must be some
12 clarity as between the two.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think, as a matter of fact, first it's not
14 that clear to me that 92 ter would have to serve only for portions of the
15 evidence that would not be elicited orally. I mean, you could elicit
16 additional oral evidence in relation to those paragraphs and even in oral
17 evidence seek to have reconfirmed certain portions of what is already in
19 So -- but it -- it should be perfectly clear what is admitted,
20 yes or no, so therefore the necessity of redacting might not be there if
21 the remainder also qualifies under 92 ter. At least it would save the
22 Prosecution from summarizing those portions of the 92 ter evidence which
23 are dealt with in oral evidence as well. But it should be perfectly
25 So the first question to you, Mr. Di Fazio: You've indicated
1 that for the April -- for example, the April of this year statement, that
2 you would elicit oral evidence on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, then
3 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, so it's finally up to you whether you want to elicit
4 this evidence in addition to what is on paper, or whether you would
5 freshly elicit this evidence from the witness.
6 Since you have announced that you would tender the remainder
7 under Rule 92 ter, perhaps for this moment it might be best to work on
8 the basis of the redacted statements.
9 By the way, there are two ways of redacted: the one is making
10 illegible and the other one is striking-out. Striking-out gives the
11 advantage that if the parties would not strongly oppose the Chamber, who
12 of course has already received the full statement, still looking at what
13 it could more or less expect to be elicited in oral evidence, that's of
14 course -- that's a way on how to practically proceed.
15 I suggest that you, at this moment, that you present the redacted
16 statement, but ...
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, if it would still be the starting
19 point for the Prosecution that oral evidence will be elicited from the
20 witness, not in addition to the written evidence, that might perhaps be
21 even be a bit of a surprise to the Defence because it has been announced
22 that it would -- only those portions you announced would be presented as
23 92 ter, that on this basis - and not saying that this is to be done
24 always in the future - that on this basis, I think it would be better to
25 have the redacted statement shown to the witness.
1 I take it that since the word "blacked-out" was used, it was not
2 stricken-out. You could consider next time, perhaps, to find another way
3 of -- of excluding for purposes of -- of transparency what is exactly
4 out, but it would still be --
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that's -- that's not a problem and we'll
6 take --
7 JUDGE ORIE: For this time, let's not --
8 MR. DI FAZIO: We'll do that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: And so -- yes.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: And, Your Honours, may I take it that what's
11 being -- what's passed today between the parties and the Trial Chamber is
12 not to be set as a precedent necessarily for the future, and in the
13 future the issue of whether or not oral evidence can be led from a
14 statement which has been tendered under 92 ter, that may -- that may
15 still occur.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I said that the Chamber -- that we're not
17 convinced yet that --
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- eliciting oral evidence in relation to portions
20 of 92 ter statements which are -- are presented as evidence as well is
21 not, as such, is not inadmissible.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, Your Honour --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- with regard to those observations. Having
25 been involved with the Rules Committee at the time that the specific
1 issue of 92 ter came up, it seemed at that time, and I believe it was
2 really quite clear, that the purpose of 92 ter was that we would be, in
3 effect, saving substantial amounts of time by presenting the evidence in
4 writing, and there would be no further discussion orally about those
5 matters that were presented in writing.
6 I think one of the experiences that has happened in a number of
7 Chambers here, unfortunately, is -- is the statements that have been
8 presented 92 ter have -- have resulted in a fair amount of oral evidence
9 being led outside of the matter, and as a matter of fact what we have
10 been doing here, at least up and to this point, has really been, I think,
11 probably a stricter and more accurate application of 92 ter; that being
12 that those matters that are being presented by way of written material
13 are to be attested to by the witness and then subject for
14 cross-examination are those matters that are to be led orally, are to be
15 led orally.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Guy-Smith, you're raising the practical
17 application of 92 ter; that, of course, is a matter of policy as well
18 for -- and as you may have noted, the Chamber is certainly encouraging
19 the Prosecution, which seems to be behind schedule already, to use in an
20 optimal way some time-saving practices which are admissible. That's
21 limited at this moment to what is admissible.
22 Mr. Di Fazio, are you ready to call your witness?
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Just about, Your Honours. I'm sorry. There is
24 one other matter that I think I ought to raise now, it might save time,
25 and that's the question of what happens with the exhibits that this
1 witness refers to in his statement.
2 Now, he refers to a whole series of documents which, as you can
3 see from his statement, bear ERN numbers and I think you will have
4 received my exhibit binder index which cross-references them to -- to the
5 65 ter documents. And I intend to tender into evidence or -- tender into
6 evidence those documents. If there's going to be problems or objections
7 to that, it might be an idea to settle that now rather than during the
8 course --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Well, apart from what the Defence will say,
10 Mr. Di Fazio, certainly a problem is that the Chamber has not seen those
11 documents. So, therefore, to decide on the admission of documents,
12 documents the Chamber has not yet seen, is by all means a problem.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, then what I might suggest in order to
14 resolve the issue is that they simply be marked for identification at
15 this point in time --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but if these are longer -- I mean, we have to
17 read them. I mean, marking for identification is one, but let's first
18 hear from Mr. Emmerson.
19 MR. EMMERSON: I rise simply to record that when I saw the next
20 witness's most recent statement and the amount of it that is concerned
21 with simply identifying documents and giving evidence that the witness
22 recognises Mr. Haradinaj's signature, I was somewhat surprised, and the
23 reason for that is that before the Christmas vacation, the Prosecution
24 served on the Defence a series of proposed agreed facts arising out of
25 all of these documents. And the Defence responded to those in January,
1 indicating where signatures were agreed, the fact of the agreement, and
2 the fact that in some instances that it was Mr. Haradinaj's practice to
3 use a stamp of his signature, but that he wasn't disputing that whether
4 he used the stamp or someone else did, that the order emanated with his
6 Now, I haven't had the opportunity to compare document by
7 document whether the material that Mr. Di Fazio wishes to elicit crosses
8 over completely with the material that's in the agreed facts, but it
9 should do. And since Your Honour's mentioning time-saving procedures, it
10 may be that either in written or oral form having a witness who is not a
11 handwritten expert give unnecessary evidence which is already agreed
12 might not be the most efficient use of time.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
14 Mr. Di Fazio, you see there might be a few problems left.
15 Mr. Emmerson at the same time indicates that there might be quite a lot
16 of agreement on the signature of Mr. Haradinaj under these documents.
17 And what I remember, it's approximately 80 or 90 per cent what the
18 witness is just supposed to confirm that the document is signed by
19 Mr. Haradinaj.
20 So is this sufficiently guiding you? Then, of course, I take it
21 that they'll be marked for identification so that the Chamber at least at
22 a later stage, apart from whether we would accept that it's the signature
23 of Mr. Haradinaj, it could be anything, and of course the Chamber would
24 like to have a look at it before.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Of course. I had assumed that Mr. Di Fazio is in
1 a position to have cross-referenced the documents he's proposing to
2 adduce with those which were on the agreed facts and knows precisely what
3 the Defence position is in respect to each of them, because it's all been
4 made clear.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So then at least there's a fair chance that
6 if Mr. Di Fazio has not done it yet, that at least within the next couple
7 of hours it will become clear whether -- whether and which of these
8 documents are --
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I hadn't intended to actually touch upon much of
10 the material in the documents at all, and I hear what the Defence says
11 concerning agreement or partial agreement on the documents bearing the
12 purported or the signature of Mr. Haradinaj. I just wanted those
13 documents, at the very least, to be marked for identification. I don't
14 intend to get this witness to -- to go through and provide anything
15 further above and beyond what is already in his statement concerning
16 those documents. But I do want them to be marked for identification at
17 the very least at the end of -- at the end of the examination.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that before cross-examination starts, that
19 at least it will be clear which documents need any attention at all.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I know which documents at the moment I wish
21 to cross-examine on. I do think it's a slightly odd procedure, if I may
22 respectfully say so, to use the witness who is not, as I understand it,
23 producing these documents, they weren't documents that he himself
24 produces, to be the vehicle through which the Prosecution marks for
25 identification documents which bear Mr. Haradinaj's signature and which
1 are the subject of a set of agreed facts, but it's not up to me --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Whether on the basis of a witness statement
3 or whether on the basis of agreed facts, then we have the documents and
4 the parties then would agree that they're signed by Mr. Haradinaj, either
5 in stamped form or directly.
6 Okay. Let's -- spending more time on it might even be worse.
7 Mr. Di Fazio, are you ready to call your next witness?
8 MR. DI FAZIO: I am, if Your Honours, please, and I call
9 Bislim Zyrapi.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Madam Usher, could you please escort Mr. Zyrapi into the
13 MR. DI FAZIO: While we're waiting, can we arrange to have 65 ter
14 1304 placed on the screen, please.
15 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, it's suggested that you read the
17 summary. It's only one page. Perhaps in the beginning in the presence
18 of the witness, the witness certainly -- I take it you've explained to
19 him that that's not his statement but that's just a summary of his
20 statement and you would then show him the --
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honour's referring to the summary of the Rule
22 92 ter statement?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay. I was going to show him his personal
25 particulars, that's another document --
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's another document.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Would you prefer me to do the summary first? I
3 can do that.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If the witness is not there yet --
5 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm happy -- I don't think it matters whether he's
6 here or not.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- no, no. I think he comes in already so,
8 therefore, it's perhaps better to ... I'll explain to him what the
9 procedure is.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Zyrapi.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Zyrapi, before you give evidence in this
15 court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
16 declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
17 the truth. The text is now handed out to you by Madam Usher, and I'd
18 like to invite you to make that solemn declaration.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
20 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Zyrapi.
22 Mr. Zyrapi, you'll give your testimony in this court; at the same
23 time you gave already a couple of statements, and some of what is in the
24 statements will not be repeated anymore during this testimony.
25 Nevertheless, for the public to understand what is in these
1 public statements, Mr. Di Fazio will start with reading a summary, that's
2 not your statement, it's not your testimony, but just a summary of it so
3 that the public will be in a better position to understand the remainder
4 of your evidence. Therefore, Mr. Di Fazio will start reading that.
5 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
7 Summary of the Rule 92 ter statement of Bislim Zyrapi:
8 "Bislim Zyrapi is an Albanian, currently holding a position in
9 the Department of Emergency Management in Kosovo. Formerly he was a
10 professional soldier in the JNA, later the Army of the Republic of Bosnia
11 and Herzegovina, and then the KLA. In March, 1998, he went to Tirana
12 Albania and set about assisting and training KLA soldiers in Albania. In
13 either April or May 1998, he briefly met Ramush Haradinaj in Tirana, at
14 an apartment used by Mr. Zyrapi and other KLA soldiers. He noticed on
15 this occasion that Ramush Haradinaj was upset and said words to the
16 effect that KLA officers should leave Albania and go to Kosovo. At the
17 time, Ramush Haradinaj, whom the witness knew as Smajl, was wounded.
18 Also present were other KLA operatives.
19 "On the 28th of May, 1998, Bislim Zyrapi crossed the
20 Albania-Kosovo border with approximately 80 armed KLA soldiers. They
21 were all armed and in uniform, and each man carried an additional weapon.
22 Members of the KLA General Staff were in the group. Following his entry
23 into Kosovo, Bislim Zyrapi was tasked with training and advising KLA
24 forces, as well as checking on the KLA forces in the western Kosovo KLA
25 operational zones. That included the Dukadjin Operational Zone.
1 "Bislim Zyrapi continued to meet with Ramush Haradinaj and saw
2 him again in August or September 1998 following a dispute between Ramush
3 Haradinaj and Tahir Zemaj and then in 1999. He also met with Ramush
4 Haradinaj more frequently after November 1998, when he was appointed
5 Chief of Staff of the KLA General Staff. On occasions, operational zone
6 commanders, such as Ramush Haradinaj, provided reports to the KLA General
7 Staff, in both written and oral form. Bislim Zyrapi had the opportunity
8 to see the signature of Ramush Haradinaj through the provision of such
9 reports. Bislim Zyrapi was shown a number of Prosecution exhibits and
10 has provided commentary on those documents, including the signature of
11 Ramush Haradinaj which appears on many of those documents.
12 "Bislim Zyrapi became aware of a dispute between FARK or Armed
13 Forces of the Republic of Kosovo, officer Tahir Zemaj, who arrived in
14 Kosovo around July 1998, concerning the command of Albanian forces in the
15 Dukadjin Operational Zone. In late August or early September 1998 Bislim
16 Zyrapi and a delegation from the KLA General Staff visited the Dukadjin
17 area and intervened in the dispute and the KLA General Staff sided with
18 Ramush Haradinaj in the dispute."
19 May I proceed?
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
21 WITNESS: BISLIM ZYRAPI
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
24 Q. Witness, I'd like you to look at the screen that you see before
25 you and you should have before you a list of personal details. Thank
1 you. Do you see those details before on the screen? You'll see that
2 there's English followed with an Albanian translation. Can you just read
3 and scan through that and read the details and tell us if they're
4 accurate, reflecting your date of birth, your place of birth, and other
5 personal details, including military career details. If you need to --
6 help to scroll up, would you just let the court officer know?
7 A. Yes, I read everything.
8 Q. And are those details correct or is there anything there that
9 you'd like to change?
10 A. Everything I read is correct.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that document would be number ...?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P117,
13 marked for identification.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
15 Any objections by the Defence? If not, I take it you want to
16 tender that, Mr. Di Fazio, in the absence of any objection, it's admitted
17 into evidence.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. DI FAZIO:
21 Q. I'd like now to show you, Mr. Zyrapi, electronic versions of your
22 statement. Again, they will appear on the screen. You may see
23 blacked-out portions. Don't be alarmed for that. There are various
24 legal reasons. We're going to hear from you orally about those
25 blacked-out portions and that's why they're blacked-out, so it's nothing
1 to concern yourself about?
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness please be shown the November 2005
3 statement, that's 65 ter 1303.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P118,
6 marked for identification.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I also have a hard copy.
9 Would you refer me to show a hard copy to the witness or shall we just --
10 JUDGE ORIE: I think it might be for the witness to be able to
11 browse through it better --
12 MR. DI FAZIO: All right.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- that he has a hard copy of it as well.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. All right. If Your Honours please,
15 then for the purposes of the transcript, may I just say that I'm now
16 producing to the witness not one but two statements. Firstly, the
17 statement from November 2005 which is 65 ter 1303 which contains the
18 redactions; and secondly, the statement from April 2007, which is 65 ter
19 1301, which also contains, yes, the redactions.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 And, Madam Registrar, could you please assign numbers to start
22 with first the November 2005 statement.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Now, Mr. --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's the one you just announced, isn't it, that is
2 65 ter 1303?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that's correct, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that we now get the B/C/S version on our
5 screen --
6 MR. DI FAZIO: I think you should have an Albanian version.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Albanian, yes, I apologise. Yes. Is it possible
8 for the Chamber to scroll through it so that we also can see whether
9 the -- whether the paragraphs --
10 MR. DI FAZIO: The Albanian version, if Your Honours please, has
11 not been redacted. I only intend to tender, of course, the English
13 JUDGE ORIE: What did you give to the witness?
14 MR. DI FAZIO: What I gave to the witness are the English
15 versions of the statements.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: They are the ones that have been signed --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: -- and they are the ones that need to go in.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But -- yes. At the same time, there could be some
21 confusion as to what -- what will then be tendered and admitted, the
22 redacted version -- I mean, then I take it that the translation should be
23 similarly redacted so as to fully reflect what is in the original.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, it -- that hasn't occurred. I can -- I can
25 arrange -- I can arrange --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, I take --
2 MR. DI FAZIO: -- for that to happen, and that can be done as
3 soon as --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Because otherwise we would have different versions
5 in -- in evidence; that is, a full version not redacted in Albanian and a
6 redacted version in English, which is not a -- not a situation preferred.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well. Your Honours, I can attend to this
8 matter and get it done within the next hour or so.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Would you prefer me to continue with this exercise
11 at a later point, and I can just get on with the rest of his testimony?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay. Then I'll ask that the written -- Albanian
14 versions are accordingly redacted in parallel so they reflect the
15 redactions that have occurred in the English, and I'll produce the
16 statements to the witness later.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Perhaps the statements should be given
19 back to me, Madam Usher, and ...
20 Thank you.
21 Q. Sorry about that confusion, Witness. I'll produce those to you
22 later when you can have a similarly redacted Albanian version to
23 accompany it.
24 I just wanted to obtain some additional details concerning
25 your -- your work and career in the KLA. What rank did you finally
1 achieve in the KLA, and when did you achieve that rank?
2 A. In the KLA, I was Chief of General Staff of the KLA. I did not
3 have any ranking.
4 Q. Thank you. And when did you -- when were you appointed to that
5 position as Chief of the General Staff?
6 A. In November 1998.
7 Q. And did you retain that position for the remainder of the war?
8 A. No. Until April 1999, I was Chief of General Staff; then I was
9 released from that duty and had another duty.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Di Fazio, I tried to check
11 now electronically in relation to -- to what I find in your e-mail of the
12 20th of April in which you announce what -- on what paragraphs oral
13 evidence will be led.
14 I read - and I'm now referring to the November 2005 statement -
15 "oral evidence will be led of the material referred to in paragraphs 6,
16 7, 12, 13, 14, 18." Is that correctly understood, just to start with?
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Di Fazio, I read this as if 6 would
19 not be tendered as 92 -- paragraph 6 of the statement would not be
20 tendered then as 92 ter evidence. But I see that in the redacted version
21 on my screen, I see that the first three lines of paragraph 6 are not
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I'm sorry, I apologise for that. I do --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I see that you want to -- to elicit oral
25 evidence 12, 13, 14. 12 is, in the version I find on my screen, is not
1 blacked-out at all; 13 is not blacked-out at all; 14 is not blacked-out
2 at all. So what you're now doing is you have announced - and I take it
3 that the Defence relied on that - that these are the paragraphs
4 blacked-out, and now they turn out not to be blacked-out. At least I've
5 not gone any further. It seems that 18 is okay; 19 you say you would
6 elicit oral evidence, but 19 appears in full, not blacked-out; 20 does
7 not appear as blacked-out; 21 does not appear as blacked-out; it's only
8 then 22.
9 So what you are doing, you are announcing in an e-mail what
10 portions are 92 ter evidence, and Mr. Emmerson rightly emphasised how
11 important it was to have transparency here, and now you are presenting us
12 with a document which only partially reflects what you said you would do
13 in your e-mail.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I'd now like to see, as a matter of fact, what has
16 been given to the witness to see whether that's a similar document.
17 Could the usher for one second -- has the witness returned it or is it --
18 MR. DI FAZIO: I have it here.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, no, but if it's -- I'd like to see the document.
20 Is that the one --
21 MR. DI FAZIO: He doesn't have them anymore, if Your Honour --
22 JUDGE ORIE: He doesn't.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I've taken them back.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, I see that it's -- I've just looked at
25 the November. I'm not going to go through all of them, Mr. Di Fazio.
1 The Chamber expects you, if you say in a statement: "Oral evidence will
2 be led of the material referred to in paragraphs so and so and so, and if
3 we have earlier discussed that you have prepared a blacked-out or
4 redacted statement, then the Chamber expects you to have redacted all the
5 paragraphs you mentioned and not only half of them.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I apologise for that, if Your Honours
7 please. I'll make sure that the version that's produced later in the
8 afternoon reflects that.
9 MR. EMMERSON: Just -- I'm sorry to rise, and as I say, I hope
10 I've made it clear from the outset. All I'm concerned with is the
11 clarity of the situation.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. EMMERSON: So I see -- what I understood Mr. Di Fazio's last
14 remark to indicate is that now the statement will be brought into
15 alignment with the e-mail rather than the other way around, if that's
17 JUDGE ORIE: That's how I understood it.
18 Mr. Di Fazio.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
23 Q. Now, I'd like to ask you some questions about a period of time in
24 late 1997. At that time, were you residing in a European country,
25 western European country? I don't need to know which one in particular.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you attend Albanian clubs from time to time where Albanians
3 would meet and gather for social purposes and other purposes?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you at those clubs ever become aware of the existence of the
7 A. Yes, in a club.
8 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how that came about?
9 A. It was in 1997/1998. There were clubs that existed at that time
10 in Europe. I visited those clubs, which were Albanian clubs, and
11 Albanians got together there for various activities. In April -- not in
12 April, but in 1997/1998, I attended those clubs and had a meeting with
13 one of the representatives of the KLA who described the situation in
14 Kosovo, and I offered during that meeting to join the KLA. But there was
15 also work done to collect funds for the KLA.
16 Q. Thank you. I'll ask you some questions about your specific --
17 your joining of the KLA in due course, but now I'd just like you to tell
18 the Trial Chamber what you know of the appearance of the KLA and
19 appearance of KLA representatives in these clubs and what they were doing
20 in 1997.
21 Firstly - and remember, I'm not talking about you in particular -
22 was there any attempt at recruitment of Albanian men into the KLA, using
23 the mechanism of these clubs?
24 A. Yes. During these meetings, there was talk about joining the
1 Q. And how would that be -- how was -- how did that manifest itself?
2 Was it through speakers from the KLA addressing clubs, posters? How did
3 it -- how did it actually manifest itself?
4 A. This was done during the meeting, while the presentation was made
5 about the situation in Kosovo, and the opportunity was offered to
6 Albanians in the diaspora to join. And then they told people about the
7 person they had to contact in order to be able to join the KLA.
8 Q. Thank you. And was that occurring towards the end of 1997?
9 A. As far as I know, yes, in 1997 and in 1998.
10 Q. Thank you. And was it occurring at only one Albanian club or did
11 you see the same recruitment effort being made at various Albanian clubs
12 in Europe that you attended?
13 A. In all the clubs in Europe that existed.
14 Q. And -- and were these recruitment efforts all completely open,
15 public efforts; there was nothing clandestine about them?
16 A. The meetings that were held were open. The meetings -- at least
17 the meetings that I took part in.
18 Q. Thank you. Have you ever heard of the existence of something
19 called the Vendladja Karet - I apologise for my pronunciation - or Faret?
20 I'm not sure how -- how you say it. The Vendladja Therret,
21 V-e-n-d-l-a-d-j-a T-h-e-r-r-e-t, fund, have you ever heard of such a
23 A. Yes, this fund existed in the diaspora in 1997.
24 Q. Can you remember when, in 1997, you first became aware of the
25 existence of this fund?
1 A. When I started attending these meetings in the Albanian clubs.
2 Q. And can you explain to the Trial Chamber what precisely the fund
3 was and its purpose and how it operated?
4 A. The aim of the fund was to collect financial means to finance the
5 KLA to collect weapons, clothes, food, and medicines that were needed for
6 the development of the KLA.
7 Q. Did it solicit contributions from members of the Albanian
9 A. Yes, indeed.
10 Q. And how did -- how did one make a contribution to this fund, as
11 far as you're aware?
12 A. Everyone offered to contribute whatever they had. You could do
13 that in cash or through an account set aside for the purpose.
14 Q. Thank you. I want you now to jump ahead to 1998, when you were
15 already in Kosovo. Did you ever participate in using or making decisions
16 concerning the funds, the monies, that had been collected via this fund?
17 A. I did when I assumed the task of the Chief of Staff.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
19 MR. EMMERSON: This is a general question, but it's illustrated
20 by the question that's just been asked, and it's a problem I have noted
21 in relation to this witness's evidence in other cases as well.
22 It is vitally important that all questions asked be properly
23 time-framed. Because, for example, as this witness has just indicated,
24 he was not Chief of General Staff until November 1998. So a question
25 that is framed in terms of: Can we now jump forward to 1998 --
1 JUDGE ORIE: You would rather have a month --
2 MR. EMMERSON: We absolutely must at each stage of the way.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Mr. Di Fazio, I take it that you accept the suggestion given?
5 MR. DI FAZIO: No problem. Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. DI FAZIO:
8 Q. Can you give us a period of time when you -- not just the year,
9 but if you can give us a month as well, when you participated in any
10 decisions concerning how to use the funds that had been accumulated in
11 this particular fund?
12 A. I participated in decision-making when I took over the position
13 of the Chief of Staff in November 1998.
14 Q. Are you aware or do you know if other high-ranking KLA officers
15 from the General Staff did the same thing prior to your being appointed
16 to that position in November 1998; that is, make decisions on what and
17 how to use the funds and what to direct it towards?
18 A. Up to the time I became Chief of Staff, I had no information as
19 to what discussions were made and how the decisions were made on the use
20 of funds. It was only after I was appointed to that position, then I
21 took part in the decisions on the use of funds.
22 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Very well.
23 I'd now like you to return to late 1997 and early 1998, and I
24 want you to inform the Trial Chamber of the manner in which you came to
25 be recruited and joined the KLA. Firstly, may I ask you, do you know a
1 gentleman named Fehmi Lladrovci?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Xhemal Fetahu?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were they instrumental in or play -- did they play a part in your
6 joining the KLA?
7 A. Yes, they did.
8 Q. Thank you. I'd like you to tell the Trial Chamber how it came to
9 be that you initially discussed the question and what transpired after
10 that in terms of your actual joining of the KLA.
11 A. As I mentioned earlier, in these club meetings I became
12 acquainted with Fehmi Lladrovci who discussed with me, first in Germany
13 and then in the country I was living at the time, to speak to me about
14 the KLA, its operations, and the possibility of my joining its ranks.
15 After several such meetings with him, in Germany and in the other
16 country I was living, he told me -- he asked me whether I wanted to join,
17 and that for that purpose he said, You have to contact the KLA General
18 Staff, which would make a decision on my joining it.
19 In 1998, it was in March, I think, Fehmi, who used to live first
20 in Germany, in March he went to Albania and to Kosova to join, and he
21 left Xhemal Fetahu as a contact point with whom I kept contact through a
22 telephone, because at that time he, too, was in Albania.
23 In the second half of March, before the massacre occurred in the
24 Jashari family, after that I was called by Xhemal Fetahu on the phone to
25 go to Albania to see the possibility of my joining the KLA. I left the
1 place where I was living and went to Albania.
2 At the airport, I was received by Mr. Xhemal, and he accompanied
3 me to Tirana, telling me to wait until a decision came from the
4 General Staff of the KLA on my entry into Kosova and on my assisting them
5 during that period while I was waiting.
6 Q. Thanks. Thanks for that. Firstly, a couple of questions from
7 that long answer that you've given. Do you know if at the time that you
8 were talking to them about your possibility of joining the KLA, if either
9 Lladrovci or Fetahu were members of the KLA?
10 A. At that time when we met, they introduced themselves as being
11 members of the KLA staff.
12 Q. Thank you. And can you give us a time when you flew to Tirana,
14 A. I flew in the second half of March. I am not very sure about the
15 exact date, but I know it was after the massacre committed in the Jashari
16 family when I went to Tirana.
17 Q. Thank you. The -- just very briefly, can you tell the
18 Trial Chamber what motivated you to join the KLA and whether the episode
19 at the Jashari family compound played any part in that?
20 A. What motivated me to join the KLA, given my experience in the
21 Bosnian war, given the fact that Kosova lacked such experiences, I
22 decided to join to help my people in the war they were waging. When I
23 said the war that had just started, I mean that the massacre committed at
24 the Jashari family compound was the beginning of the war between the
25 Serbian forces and the KLA.
1 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to interrupt, but the last answer --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
3 MR. EMMERSON: -- may involve, I think, a translation issue. The
4 translation as recorded is: "What motivated me to join the KLA, given my
5 experience in the Bosnian war, given the fact that Kosova lacked such
6 experiences, I decided to help my people in the war ..."
7 Now, it may be that the witness was intending to say something
8 rather about his own experience --
9 MR. DI FAZIO: That's exactly what I'm going to ask.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
12 Q. You heard the exchange, what Defence counsel just raised with the
13 Trial Chamber. It's a topic I'd like you to -- to tell us about. Did --
14 did your military experience in Bosnia play any part in your joining the
15 KLA? And by that, I mean did you -- either, did you present it as a good
16 reason why they should accept you or did they say to you, You're a man
17 with experience and we can use someone like you? And can you tell the
18 Trial Chamber.
19 A. When I say "military experience," I mean experience I got from
20 the military schools I finished and experience I obtained from the
21 Bosnian war from 1992 to 1995 in the post I was appointed first in
22 Sarajevo in the anti-artillery brigade and then in the Central Bosnia.
23 And in the end, I was division commander. So this is quite an extensive
24 experience, I would say.
25 Q. Yes. I don't think anyone's in any doubt about that, but what
1 we'd like to know is this: Did that considerable experience play any
2 part in our recruitment into the KLA, either by you making it clear to
3 other members of the KLA or by them, members of the KLA, saying to you,
4 Well, you're a man of experience and we can use you?
5 A. Yes. In my contacts with Fehmi and Xhemal at the time, they
6 already knew that I was a former officer and that I had participated in
7 the Bosnian war. So they considered my experience as useful for them.
8 Q. Thank you. All right. Now, you've told us that you flew - and I
9 think you said sometime after mid-March - you flew to Tirana. Did you --
10 were you accommodated in an apartment there?
11 A. Yes. When I arrived in Tirana from the airport, I was placed in
12 an apartment, where I stayed until I stayed -- I remained in Tirana.
13 Q. And when did you leave Tirana to cross over into Kosovo?
14 A. At the end of May, on the 28th of May, I entered Kosova.
15 Q. I now want you to direct your attention to that period of time,
16 the period of time that you were in Tirana before you -- from mid-March
17 sometime to late May. This apartment that you stayed at, was it visited
18 from time to time by members of the KLA General Staff?
19 A. Yes, Xhemal came often, the late Konushefci Ilir, who were
20 members of the logistics department in the KLA staff. They often use to
21 come to meet us and to seek advice from us regarding the arms supply.
22 Q. Thank you. Could you give us those names again? What I'd like
23 to know is the full names, if you can remember, of members of the KLA
24 General Staff who visited at that apartment while you were there in
25 Albania. The full name, first name and second name, and as many as you
1 can remember having attended.
2 A. Most often the persons who came were Raif Gashi, Ilir Konushefci,
3 Xhemal Fetahu, Xhavit Haliti, persons who used to come more often during
4 my stay in Tirana.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: If he could elicit who the "us" were that he was
7 referring to in his answer. They came to receive advice from "us."
8 MR. DI FAZIO: That's a very good suggestion. Thank you.
9 Q. Who was also in the apartment? Who -- who was being visited,
10 apart from yourself?
11 A. Apart from myself, there was also Naim Maloku, also a former
12 officer of the Yugoslav Army. Then there was Agim Qela, Afrim Basha, and
13 other officers who used to come from the west and stayed there for a
14 while before they went to Kosova.
15 Q. Thank you. And these gentlemen that you've just mentioned,
16 Agim Qela, Afrim Basha, and Naim Maloku, did they hold any rank or
17 position in the KLA?
18 A. No, they didn't. They hadn't joined the KLA yet at the time.
19 They were former officers of the Yugoslav Army, as we called it then.
20 Q. So they were essentially in your position; namely, experienced
21 military men who had been brought to that apartment with the possibility
22 or view to later joining the KLA. Is that --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
24 MR. EMMERSON: It is very important with these matters to get
25 absolute accuracy, and my understanding of the witness's evidence is that
1 two of the names he described as people who passed through, having come
2 from the west on their way into Kosovo. It's line -- page 34, line 24.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I see that it's there. That's --
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, the testimony of this witness has been that
5 that applies to him, too. I can elicit that and clarify it. That's not
6 a problem.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
8 MR. DI FAZIO:
9 Q. The names -- I'm concerned about those names that you mentioned
10 as people in the -- in your apartment, the apartment that you stayed in:
11 Agim Qela, Afrim Basha, Naim Maloku. Did they eventually cross the
12 border into Kosovo as you did?
13 A. Yes, they did.
14 Q. Were they experienced military officers, former members of the
16 A. Naim Maloku, yes; Agim Qela, yes; Afrim Basha was a superior
17 officer in the Bosnian Army.
18 Q. Did they all later join the KLA?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Did they all reside with you for a time in the same apartment in
22 A. Yes, they did. We resided together until the time we joined the
23 KLA in Kosova.
24 Q. Did they, like you, come from other parts of Europe?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. All right. During the time that you were in Albania prior to
2 your crossing the border, what -- what sort of activities did you
4 A. Before I crossed the border into Kosova, as I said earlier,
5 together with Xhemal Fetahu, Ilir Konushefci and Raif Gashi, I was
6 involved in providing advice regarding the choice of weapons that they
7 had to supply to Kosova and with training of soldiers who came from the
8 west or from Kosova.
9 Q. Okay. Let's break-up those two topics, and we'll deal with them
10 separately. First of all, let's look at the training. Were you involved
11 in training activities throughout the whole period of time before you
12 crossed over into Kosovo?
13 A. Yes. I was involved in training together with the other officers
14 who were in Tirana.
15 Q. Thank you. About how many men would you say you personally put
16 through training?
17 A. I didn't train all of them personally, but along with the other
18 colleagues we, I would say, trained roughly about 300 trainees in Tirana.
19 Q. All right. And I just want to clarify something from your last
20 answer. As it's been translated, it says this: "Along with the other
21 colleagues, I trained roughly 300 trainees in Tirana."
22 Now, my question is this: Did the training all occur in Tirana
23 or was there training of KLA soldiers in other parts of the country as
25 A. I said during the time I stayed, but the training per se was not
1 allowed to be done openly. It was done more in a clandestine way, I
2 would say. We went to Qerret village in the vicinity of Kavaj to give
3 them tactical training; whereas, training for the use of weapons or
4 fire-arms was done in Kukes in some old factories which we use as
5 training grounds for them before they went to Kosova.
6 Q. Thank you. All right. Where's Qerret village in the vicinity of
7 Kavaj? Where in Albania is that?
8 A. This village is situated in the Kavaja commune near the boat --
9 near the coast of Albania.
10 Q. And where precisely did you train there? What -- was it in -- in
11 the countryside or did you use -- did you go to someone's land or did you
12 have facilities available? In other words, how did you organise this
13 sort of -- this training?
14 A. The people were located in a motel in Kavaj. Training took part
15 in a place between the sea and the village, full of pine trees, where it
16 was possible to give them training -- drilling on the ground. This is
17 what -- to do with the KLA groups there.
18 Q. Thank you. Was there training with live ammunition?
19 A. Not in Qerret. There we trained them in tactical issues, how to
20 use the terrain, how to move about, how to protect themselves; whereas,
21 in the use of weapons, we trained them in the northern part of Albania in
22 Kukes in some old factories. This is where we used them -- we used live
23 ammunition, training them how to use such weapons.
24 Q. And do you know who funded your accommodation and the
25 accommodation of the other men in the apartment in Tirana and who funded
1 these people who were being trained in a motel in Kavaj? Do you know
2 where the funds for that came from?
3 A. The funds came from Xhemal Fetahu for the apartment. The money
4 for the training came from the logistic department; they paid for our
5 food, for the food of the soldiers, for their accommodation. The
6 logistical department was responsible for the purchase of weapons, and
7 they got the money from the funds of the motherland cause.
8 Q. And was that something you knew at the time, or was that
9 something you subsequently discovered; namely, the source of money for
10 this sort of training?
11 A. At that time, I didn't know. My duty was to be engaged in
12 training and providing advice. It was later on that I found out where
13 the money came from.
14 Q. And when would you say -- and how -- when would you say you found
15 out and how did you find out the source of the money?
16 A. After talking with comrades Raif, Xhemal, and when I went to the
17 General Staff, when I joined the KLA.
18 Q. Thank you. The -- you said that there was approximately 300 men
19 were put through training and that was through your efforts and the
20 efforts of your colleagues. Of those 300, about how many would you say
21 came from Kosovo and about how many came from other -- other countries?
22 Or indeed Albania, for that matter?
23 A. From the Albanian diaspora came 70 per cent; the remainder, 30
24 per cent, came from Kosova.
25 Q. Around finally, do you know who -- on this topic of training, do
1 you know -- do you know who provided the factories where live weapons
2 training was used -- was undertaken?
3 A. We used them, as I said, rather in an illegal way or in a
4 clandestine way. As how they were procured, I can't tell you, I don't
5 have any information.
6 Q. In that period of time, March to end of May, how long did it take
7 to put an average young man through -- through such training?
8 A. On an average, to train a young man who has no experience
9 whatsoever of military -- military life, you would need one to two months
10 before he could be sent to the war. But in light of the fact that most
11 of them coming from the diaspora, where people who had already performed
12 their military duty in the former Yugoslav Army, they needed less time.
13 And there was urgent need for them to join Kosova or the KLA. So to my
14 recollection, we gave them training for about two weeks, both tactical
15 and arms training.
16 Q. Thank you. You said that there was an urgent need for them to
17 join Kosova or the KLA. How did you become aware of this urgent need?
18 Why did -- or why do you say there was such a need, urgent need?
19 A. I say this because after the Jashari massacre, the conflict was
20 escalated between the Serbian forces and the KLA; and that after that
21 incident, fighting broke out in many parts in Kosova, and colleagues on
22 the ground in the logistics department told us to train these soldiers as
23 quickly as we can for them to be able to enter Kosova and join the KLA
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, would this be an appropriate moment?
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: And I'm going to move on to another topic.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It would be an appropriate moment, but I would first
5 like to ask Madam Usher to escort the witness out of the courtroom.
6 Mr. Zyrapi, we'll have a break for almost half an hour. We would
7 like to see you back then.
8 [The witness stands down]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we have that break, Mr. Di Fazio, may I
10 draw your attention if you are reviewing the blacked-out portions of the
11 November 2005 statement, I haven't seen the April of 2007, so I take it
12 that you checked that as well. Would you please pay attention to the
13 fact that in paragraph 20 of the November 2005 statement that an
14 attachment is mentioned and which also still appears on both the
15 electronic version, that's certain portions that are pages 134 to 138 of
16 a book titled "A Narrative About War and Freedom."
17 Of course, if 20 is blacked-out, take care that the attachment
18 mentioned in there is also removed from the document.
19 We'll have a break until quarter past 4.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Before you continue, Mr. Di Fazio, two minor
24 matters -- well, perhaps important. The Chamber understands that for
25 reasons of efficiency that the Balaj Defence would very much like to get
1 one more day to respond to the Prosecution's submissions in relation to
2 Witness 8 and to the attached request to have a witness be called under
3 Rule 98. That -- that one day even doesn't make that much of a problem I
4 take it, Mr. Di Fazio. The Chamber is inclined to grant --
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes -- no, no, I don't think so that will be a
6 problem, no.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: We're most grateful, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's one.
10 And the second one, when earlier it was said that the blacked-out
11 version would be in accordance with the e-mail rather than the other way
12 around, I may draw the attention of the Prosecution to the fact that the
13 e-mail first listing quite a number of paragraphs, specifically saying
14 that that's the November 2005 statement --
15 MR. DI FAZIO: That's all --
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- that's all the other paragraphs mentioned, where
17 of course, everyone would assume that the other paragraphs in relation to
18 the April 2007 statement. It doesn't say so, but I take it that that's
20 MR. DI FAZIO: That's a typing error or typing omission I should
21 say that I only just discovered five minutes before --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Just --
23 MR. DI FAZIO: And Your Honour's understanding is 100 per cent
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please proceed.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
2 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, you were telling us about training in the period of
3 time that you were in Albania prior to May 28, 1998. I want to ask you
4 now about a matter that you earlier alluded to, namely the checking of
5 weapons and purchase of weapons. In that period of time, again the
6 period of time mid-March 1998 to 28th of May, 1998, did you provide
7 advice to any members of the KLA on the sorts of weaponry that ought to
8 be used by them or purchased by the KLA?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Can we -- can you tell us what sort of advice you provided
11 and to whom you provided that advice?
12 A. Concretely with persons with whom I stayed for some times, Ilir
13 Konushefci, Xhemal Fetahu. My advice was mainly focused upon weapons
14 that could be technically used or not. These were the pieces of advice
15 that I gave at the time.
16 Q. Did you participate in the purchase of weapons?
17 A. I only checked the technical part of it, but I did not take part
18 in the purchasing of weapons; those were purchased by the logistics
20 Q. What do you mean the "technical" part of it? What technical part
21 of the purchase of weapons -- what is the tech -- let me rephrase that.
22 What is the technical part of the purchase of weapons? What do you mean
24 A. I mean that I checked and I gave advice whether those weapons
25 were fit to be used or not, technically.
1 Q. Were you aware of any of your colleagues purchasing weapons on
2 behalf of the KLA in that period of time, between mid-March 1998 and
3 28 May 1998?
4 A. During this period which I spent with these colleagues in Tirana,
5 it was them who dealt with the purchasing.
6 Q. How do you know that?
7 A. From Xhemal Fetahu, from Ilir Konushefci, and Raif Gashi.
8 Q. And what did they tell you about the purchase of weapons?
9 A. First of all, they asked me whether they were technically fit for
10 use, and then they purchased the weapons and they also arranged for the
11 transportation into Kosovo.
12 Q. Do you know how the transportation of the weapons into Kosovo
13 occurred, how -- what means was used?
14 A. I did not follow the way they were transported up to the border,
15 but on the basis of what Raif, Xhemal, and Ilir told me was that after
16 they got to the border, the transportation into Kosovo was done by
18 Q. And can you provide the Trial Chamber with any idea of the
19 frequency of such movement of weapons across the border into Kosovo
20 during that period of time? Again, I'm talking about mid-March to May --
21 late May 1998. I mean the movement using animals.
22 A. I don't know how frequent these movements were. It was not my
23 duty to follow these things.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you know where weapons were being purchased by
25 your colleagues in that period of time?
1 A. As far as I remember, in Tirana, Elbasan, Durres, and Shkoder.
2 Q. And are they towns around -- located around Albania?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. After your arrival in Tirana, did you -- did you obtain
5 information about fighting going -- that was or was not occurring between
6 KLA forces and Serb forces in Kosovo?
7 A. Yes, I was informed by my comrades, Xhemal Fetahu, Raif, Ilir,
8 that there was fighting going on in Kosova from March, April, May, and
9 they also continued at a later stage.
10 Q. Earlier in your evidence today, you dated the fighting as
11 occurring from the episode that took place at the Jashari family
12 compound. Why do you say that?
13 A. I say this because after the Jashari massacre, that was the point
14 that marked the open conflict between the KLA and the Serb forces. After
15 this fighting occurred in other places in Kosova, in Gllogjan, in the
16 territory of Malisheve, Rahovec, this was told to me by my friends, my
18 Q. Okay. Now, we'll get to that in a little more detail, but did
19 you have any other source of information, apart from your colleagues?
20 A. My colleagues and also the TV, satellite television, the Albanian
22 Q. Was that providing reports on fighting that was occurring at the
23 time that you were in -- in Albania?
24 A. At that time, my colleagues that I mentioned told me about the
25 fighting in Kosovo.
1 Q. Did you see or become aware of any such fighting rather -- let me
2 rephrase that. Did you receive any media reports whilst you were still
3 in Holland?
4 MR. DI FAZIO: I apologise. If Your Honours please, can that be
5 redacted from the transcript?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar --
7 MR. EMMERSON: I'm only rising because it wasn't at all clear to
8 me when the matter was first raised and whether it was by Mr. Di Fazio
9 that this is a subject for redaction. I don't understand the witness to
10 have ever in the past sought to conceal the country he was living in.
11 He's given evidence about it openly in two other trials.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I just didn't want to venture into -- it was
13 an abundance of caution on my part. If we go into private session, we
14 can deal with this and we can then move more -- more freely through the
15 evidence, if it's not a problem.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, Mr. Di Fazio, if you look at the personal
17 background which is a document which is, as far as I understand, is not
18 tendered under seal, and if you'd look at the semi-last line. And I
19 noticed that earlier in the testimony of the witness, it was usually not
20 addressed directly, but if you do this out of an abundance of caution,
21 Mr. Di Fazio, that --
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yeah --
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- I couldn't say that it's very abundant if you
24 look at the personal background.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I think that observation is -- is quite
2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Yes. I think under those circumstances --
3 unless there's any specific reason you'd like to explain to us in private
4 session, but then a lot of other matters have to be dealt with.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: No.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. DI FAZIO:
8 Q. When you were residing in -- in the Netherlands, did you receive
9 any media reports concerning the level of fighting? I'm talking now
10 about the period of time before -- immediately before you went to Tirana
11 or Albania.
12 A. During the time I was in the Netherlands, there were reports on
13 the Albanian satellite television, but I also heard about the fighting
14 during the meetings that were held in the clubs.
15 Q. Were you provided with any information as to the frequency of --
16 of clashes or the intensity of clashes during that period of time, when
17 you were speaking to your -- to friends in the clubs?
18 A. In the meetings in those clubs, we heard presentations about the
19 situation in Kosovo and the fighting that was occurring at the time. But
20 as to the intensity, I don't think I received any information about that.
21 Q. Thank you. Now go back to the period of time that you were in --
22 living in Tirana prior to your crossing the border. You've said that you
23 received information from some of your -- from some of your colleagues.
24 What precise sort of information were you receiving? Could you give the
25 Trial Chamber a bit more detail? Were you receiving information as to
1 where the fighting was occurring and what sort of fighting was going on?
2 A. At that time, as I was told by my colleagues and the media, there
3 were reports about fightings in several territories, but as far as to
4 where exactly, I did not have concrete information.
5 Q. Were you -- did your colleagues provide you with any detail as to
6 the nature of the fighting, whether it was full-scale clashes or
7 hit-and-run type episodes or the numbers of men involved, any of that
8 sort of information?
9 A. No. At that time I was not told where this -- the fighting was
10 occurring. There were small clashes, as far as I know, but not -- I
11 don't know any concrete information.
12 Q. Very well. You've told us already that you crossed the border
13 around the 28th of May, 1998, and you went into Kosovo. At some later
14 point, did you ever go to the Dukadjini area; and if so, when?
15 A. After I entered Kosova on the 28th of May, 1998, the whole group
16 I was part of went up to the General Staff, and then there at the General
17 Staff, we were given our functions and posts --
18 Q. If I --
19 A. -- I was --
20 Q. If I can just interrupt you. What I'm trying to do is get you to
21 focus on a period of time now. Okay? All I want you to tell me is did
22 you - after you crossed into Kosovo at some later point - did you go to
23 the Dukadjini area; and if so, when was that trip, approximately?
24 A. Yes, I was there in mid-July --
25 Q. Okay --
1 A. -- the first time and then in August.
2 Q. Okay. Thank you. So we now know that there was a period of time
3 when you crossed into Kosovo late May. You were in Kosovo for about a
4 month and a half, and then later you went to the Dukadjini Zone,
5 correct -- Dukadjini area; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. So now I'm going to ask you some questions about that
8 period of time between that visit -- between your entering Kosovo and
9 that visit. And I'm not going to -- and I'll later ask you some
10 questions about the visit. In the period of time between late May and
11 mid-July, what were your -- what were you responsible for and what were
12 your activities?
13 A. From the end of May up to mid-July, my duties were the duties of
14 an officer in the operational department of the General Staff. I was an
15 officer responsible for the development of the KLA, and my duties
16 included giving advice, training, and also the staffs and the units that
17 were created.
18 In the beginning, I was asked to go and give advice and train in
19 the areas where there were units from Mitrovica to Klina. I visited the
20 KLA in various positions, defence positions they had occupied, and also
21 giving them advice about the coordination between the units, and I was
22 also responsible for the development of the military structure that had
23 to be developed in the future.
24 Q. Was there a structure already existing from what you saw and
25 observed in that period of time? I know that you said there had to be a
1 development of a military structure in the future. My question is:
2 Was -- that may be so, but was there already a structure that you could
3 see or some sort of structure?
4 A. At the time I went there, I found some structures, but they were
5 mostly local staffs, local headquarters in the territories that I
6 visited. But there wasn't a proper military structure containing, for
7 example, structures like commander and the other structures lower than
8 the commanders.
9 Q. And did you set [Realtime transcript read in error "said"] about
10 proposing and re-arranging these local staffs or headquarters into
11 something that was more comprehensive and more coherent?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you provide weapons training to various KLA staffs?
14 A. Yes. During that period, I gave advice but also this advice
15 comprised the way the training should be held. But I did not personally
16 participate in the training.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you -- can you help the Trial Chamber with any
18 figures concerning the number of men available to the KLA, fighting men
19 available to the KLA, in Kosovo during this period of time, between late
20 May and mid-July 1998?
21 A. I don't know exactly how many there were, because I did not have
22 full information. But there were KLA soldiers in the whole of the
24 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to interrupt.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Emmerson.
1 MR. EMMERSON: Page 49, line 15, there is a mistranscription of
2 what was, in fact, a leading question. The question as asked was: "And
3 you set about proposing and re-arranging these local staffs or
4 headquarters into something that was more comprehensive and more
6 Now, that is -- rather a broad, but potentially important,
7 general statement and the witness was persuaded to agree with it. I
8 wonder if Mr. Di Fazio could now be asked, please, to elaborate on what
9 is meant or what the witness means by re-arranging local staffs and
10 headquarters into something more comprehensive and more coherent and what
11 this witness's role was in re-arranging local staffs and headquarters.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: I can understand that Mr. Emmerson would be
13 interested in that matter, and of course that's a matter that he can
14 raise in cross-examination, but I've got a time constraint on me, if Your
15 Honours please, and I need to get on with the --
16 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, Mr. Di Fazio, if you would like
17 the Chamber to understand the testimony well where he said there was no
18 command structure, et cetera, and if at the same time you are talking
19 about re-arranging of headquarters, a headquarters of course suggests
20 that there is a kind of a command structure because there is a
21 headquarter usually --
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- you find the people are then -- but the witness
24 also said there was no command structure. The witness testified about
25 logistic departments, but it was early, it was elsewhere. So to say --
1 if you leave it like it is, of course it's your time. The suggestion
2 might, if followed, might give some further information which might
3 assist the Chamber in understanding the, in this respect,
4 not-entirely-clear evidence. Please proceed.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'll certainly do my level best to
6 assist the Trial Chamber.
7 MR. EMMERSON: I'm only concerned -- I'm not sure, with respect,
8 that Mr. Di Fazio quite has the freedom of choice that he assumes because
9 he's put a leading question the meaning of which remains unclear.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I left it -- as a matter of fact, I did not
11 say anything about the technicality. Of course I would expect you to
12 oppose against the question if it's there, but of course a leading
13 question comprising of certain of -- of several elements and then just a
14 yes, where in the context certainly the question is not entirely clear is
15 not something that would best assist the Chamber.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. DI FAZIO:
18 Q. What was the structure of local staffs or local headquarters in
19 the territories that you saw and observed? What sort of structure did
20 you see?
21 A. At the time, in my visit to this territories from Mitrovica to
22 Klina, I went to local staffs, which means that there was a command at
23 the village level or neighbourhood level, but there was no command
24 structure, there was no proper military command structure with a proper
25 ranking and so on. There were groups that were not coordinated with each
1 other. And that's why I went there, to give advice and expertise how to
2 coordinate. I -- what I did was that I made a proposal to the
3 operational department, and from there on we continued with a development
4 of a proper army with a creation of squads, platoons, companies,
5 battalions, and so on.
6 Q. The commands that you observed at village level, what sort of
7 structures did they in particular have in place, any that you saw?
8 A. What I saw was that in the local staff they had a commander, but
9 they had no structure, no hierarchy or no further groups to command such
10 as squads and companies and so on. When I met these people, these were
11 only groups, simple groups of people, 10 to 20 soldiers that had gotten
13 Q. And you saw no local commands larger than that?
14 A. No, not in that period when I was visiting.
15 Q. And just tell us of the areas that you visited in that period of
16 time. Could you just remind us again?
17 A. The areas that I visited, I went from Mitrovica towards Klina,
18 which is mostly a territory under Drenica municipality. So I went to
19 these areas and gave them advice about further developments.
20 Q. Thank you. And in that period of time, late May to mid-July
21 1998, did you go to the Dukadjini area?
22 A. Yes, mid-July 1998.
23 Q. Okay. But before that you hadn't -- had you gone to the area?
24 A. No, I didn't.
25 Q. Well, that's what I'd like to now ask you about, that is your
1 visit in July of 1998 to the area. At about this time, what was your
2 rank, or rather, position within the KLA?
3 A. During this period, when I went to visit the Dukagjini area, I
4 got the function of the director of operational department of this
5 General Staff.
6 Q. And what did that -- what did that job actually entail? What
7 were you responsible for?
8 A. Well, operational responsibilities in the General Staff of the
9 KLA, which included development, training, and operations on the ground,
10 further development of the KLA.
11 Q. And when you -- when you visited the Dukagjini area, how long
12 before that had you received that appointment to that position as
13 director of the operational department?
14 A. As far as I can remember, it was only the day before or two days
15 before I went to -- on this visit.
16 Q. And what was your purpose, your exact purpose, in going to this
18 A. When we went to the area, we went together with other members of
19 the General Staff. We met in Jablanica with Ramush Haradinaj. In
20 addition to this meeting, I also wanted to get acquainted with the
21 territory and the area, so I wanted to stay for a further few days in
22 order to learn about the area.
23 Q. Did -- did you have an idea that you -- let me withdraw that and
24 let me rephrase that.
25 Were you intending to visit any military structure in
1 Dukadjini --
2 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
4 MR. EMMERSON: That is an extraordinarily difficult question to
5 follow, unless -- if Mr. Di Fazio is referring to a physical structure of
6 some kind, he should spell out what physical structure he's referring to.
7 If he's referring to some sort of organisational structure, then he ought
8 to put a proper question, if I may say so.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. DI FAZIO:
11 Q. Were you intending to visit any sort of organisational structure,
12 military organisational structure, in the area?
13 A. My visit was -- the purpose of my visit was to examine the
14 commands and lower down, and in this case in the Dukagjin Zone. The
15 meeting held at Ramush staff, who was the commander of the zone at the
16 time, then we wanted to see how much the command was developed. I wanted
17 to learn about the terrain, to get acquainted with it.
18 Q. Thank you. You've said that the meeting was held at the Ramush
19 staff. What's the Ramush staff?
20 A. I didn't say Ramush staff but in Jabllanice, between the
21 General Staff, but in the territory of Ramush Haradinaj. In the
22 operational zone which I learned while I was going there; namely, that
23 Ramush Haradinaj was the commander of the operational zone, and that a
24 meeting was going to be held between the zone commander and the
25 General Staff.
1 Q. Thank you. Who provided you with this information that
2 Ramush Haradinaj was the commander of the operational zone?
3 A. The General Staff, the former directors of the General Staff.
4 Q. When you got to the area, from what you saw and observed, was
5 that correct?
6 A. I'm not clear about the question.
7 Q. When you arrived at the area, from what you saw and observed, was
8 the information that Ramush Haradinaj was the commander of the
9 operational zone correct information?
10 A. When I arrived there and held the meeting, we were told that he
11 was the commander of the operational zone. And during my visit, I stayed
12 there for three days, I couldn't visit the entire territory to find out
13 exactly where his command reached, how far his command reached.
14 Q. Thank you. You've told us that you -- the General Staff or
15 former directors of the General Staff provided you about that
16 information -- about Mr. Haradinaj. And you've also just told us now
17 when you arrived there was a meeting and we were -- and you said: "We
18 were told that he was the commander of the operational zone."
19 Who told you when you arrived there and the meeting was held that
20 Ramush Haradinaj was the commander of the operational zone?
21 A. The members of the staff, the former director of the operation
22 department, Rexhep Selimi and Sokol Bashota. On the way there, I was
23 told that Ramush Haradinaj was the zone commander and that we were
24 supposed to hold a meeting with them.
25 Q. Now, did you -- I think you earlier said that you did meet with
1 Mr. Haradinaj. Can you recall where precisely that was when you first
2 met him?
3 A. For the first time I met him in Tirana.
4 Q. That's covered elsewhere. You don't have to worry about that.
5 I'm now talking about this July -- July visit. Okay? I mean, the July
6 of 1998 visit to the Dukadjini Zone. And where did you first meet him on
7 that occasion?
8 A. I met him in Jabllanice, where the meeting was actually held, the
9 meeting of the General Staff, with the zone commander.
10 Q. Okay. And did he introduce himself to you?
11 A. When the meeting started, I wasn't present at that actual moment
12 because I was visiting the units. So I arrived there when the meeting
13 was underway. So I don't know how he introduced himself initially.
14 Q. Were there any other commanders of the -- of the zone at the
15 meeting when you arrived, any other subordinates?
16 A. To my recollection, there were the members of the General Staff,
17 Ramush Haradinaj, myself, and others whose names I cannot recall
19 Q. In the period of time that you were there, did you ever meet any
20 deputy commanders?
21 A. During that time, I met in the -- Sali Veseli, who was in
22 Dukagjin command, he was Chief of Staff, if I am not mistaken. At least
23 this is how he introduced himself to me.
24 Q. I just want to be precise about that. Sali Veseli who's the
25 Chief of Staff of which particular command or entity?
1 A. Of the Dukagjini Zone.
2 Q. Thank you. Do you know Lahi Brahimaj?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber where -- when you first met him?
5 A. For the first time? I saw him in July in the General Staff.
6 Q. And where -- where precisely was that?
7 A. In the General Staff, I said, in Berisha Mountain. That was
8 where part of the General Staff was located.
9 Q. Apart from that meeting in the Berisha Mountains, did you see him
11 A. Yes, I saw him frequently, because he was in the staff.
12 Q. Did you see him during this trip in July that you're talking
14 A. Yes, because he was a member of the staff.
15 Q. And again, if you would just be so kind as to clarify which
16 particular staff you are talking about.
17 A. At this moment, I'm talking -- because when I first met him, he
18 was chief of the finance division, but he was a member of the General
19 Staff. And as such in this capacity, we went together to the Dukagjini
21 Q. I see. You travelled together with him to -- to the area. Is
22 that correct? Do I understand you correctly?
23 A. Yes, with Lahi and the other members of the General Staff who
24 participated in the meeting: Hashim Thaqi, Jakup Krasniqi, and others.
25 Q. Did he told any position in the Dukadjini command that you have
1 referred to?
2 A. As far as I was informed from the staff, before he was a
3 commander of Dukagjini Zone. When I met him, he was performing the duty
4 of director of the finance department.
5 Q. And is that the director of the finance department of the KLA
6 General Staff?
7 A. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you know a gentleman named Nazmi Brahimaj?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you see him during this visit in July of 1998?
11 A. I don't remember. I remember I saw him in 1998, then I saw him
12 in August. And when I saw him, he was deputy commander of the zone.
13 Q. I apologise for being pedantic, deputy commander of which zone?
14 A. Of the Dukagjini Operational Zone.
15 Q. Thank you. I'd like you now to concentrate on the -- the first
16 day that you were in this area. You've already spoken briefly about a
17 meeting that you had at which a number of personalities were present.
18 Did you -- did you conduct any inspections of any KLA forces or KLA
19 equipment in the area?
20 A. After the meeting we held in Jabllanice, I went to Gllogjan
21 together with Ramush and Sali Veseli was also there. In the evening when
22 we arrived in Gllogjan, we rested there for a while in a house. We spent
23 the night there. On the next day, I inspected the units of the KLA in
24 Gllogjan. Then I visited two positions in the vicinity of Gllogjan where
25 there were anti-artillery machine-guns, 12.7 millimetres. I was together
1 with Ramush when we visited these positions. Then I visited in Irzniq,
2 Prilep -- I'm talking of the second day. Then we returned to Gllogjan
3 in -- after lunch, in the afternoon, with Sali Veseli. I visited Shaptej
4 village until the evening of that day. Then in the evening I asked to
5 visit the territory of Reka e Keqe. During that night we visited the
6 territory of Reka e Keqe --
7 Q. Now I'd just like to interrupt you there if I may. I'd like to
8 elicit some more details about what you just told us. You say that you
9 got to Gllogjan and you rested in a house. Whose house did you -- which
10 house was this?
11 A. It was a house near the command belonging to the family of
12 Ramush, at least this is what I remember.
13 Q. And where was the command -- where was it actually located, can
14 you recall?
15 A. The command was located in a house belonging -- close to Ramush's
17 Q. You also mentioned that you inspected some units in Gllogjan --
18 sorry, your actual phrase was: "The next day," and this is after you had
19 rested, you "inspected units of the KLA in Gllogjan?"
20 Can you give the Trial Chamber an understanding of what these
21 units were, how big they were?
22 A. When I said that on the next day after arriving in Gllogjan we
23 visited the command, when I was there, there were not only the Gllogjan
24 units, there were also other units or groups which passed from Kosova to
25 Albania, from Albania to Kosova. So I cannot give you an exact figure.
1 Then we visited these two points, that I mentioned, of the anti-artillery
2 positions. Then we returned to Gllogjan, but I cannot give you the exact
3 number of units because I didn't know that at that moment.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, may I ask one question to form a
5 better understanding of the testimony of the witness.
6 Mr. Zyrapi, you told us in your testimony that when you visited
7 these territories from Mitrovica to Klina, that you found no command
8 structure, no proper military command, no proper ranking, et cetera, just
9 groups. Now, was what you observed there different from what you found
10 in the zone over which Mr. Haradinaj was commander?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the course of my visit in
12 Gllogjan and the other places I mentioned, and earlier visits in other
13 zones from Mitrovice to Kline, there were almost the same structures,
14 structures that were not typical of military -- proper military
15 structures, mostly consisting of groups.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, you are talking about
17 commanders, sub-commanders, you're talking about anti-artillery
18 positions, which -- visiting units, headquarters, which, well, sounds as
19 if there was at least a military structure which had some good
20 organisation, at least division of tasks. You also earlier said that --
21 talking about the others' areas, not more than 10 to 20 people in a
22 group. It's difficult for me to understand where, on the one hand you
23 give a picture as if some kind of unorganised local groups, and at the
24 same time you're talking -- you're saying that it's not different from
25 that about commanders, sub-commanders, headquarters, units you visited,
1 specific tasks given to those units, which I have some difficulty to
2 reconcile. Could you explain that?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I could. In answer to the
4 question about the differences between these zones, in July, mid-July,
5 when efforts started to re-organise commands in the level of zones and
6 staffs, when I went to Gllogjan these efforts were underway to form the
7 command. There was a Chief of Staff, there was commander and members of
8 the staff, but when we visited the territories at the local level, they
9 were not militarily formed in terms of units that were coordinated among
10 themselves. But where the command was that we visited and that we
11 visited those arms that I mentioned, 12.7 machine-guns, they too were at
12 the phase of being re-organised and being incorporated in the zones.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, what you described is what you
14 found, as far as I understand, your first visit to this zone. So before
15 you ever went there, coming there for the first time you find already
16 this -- well, more or less organised structure -- yes, Mr. Emmerson.
17 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. The language at this stage may be a
18 matter to which very particular care needs to be paid. We're dealing
19 with a chronology of events, and the witness's evidence - and I'm very
20 happy to explore it in more detail by reference to documentation in
21 cross-examination --
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you do that and if that would give a clear
23 picture, then I desist at this moment from asking further questions, and
24 if any question then remains I'll put them to the witness at the very
1 MR. EMMERSON: I'm not discouraging Your Honour, but the
2 witness's evidence is that the command structure was in a phase of
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's not discuss it at this moment. We'll
5 hear further evidence if the question remains then I'll put it to the
7 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
9 Q. You mentioned the anti-aircraft guns. Who took you to see these
10 anti-aircraft guns?
11 A. I didn't say "guns," I said "machine-guns," 12.7 millimetres,
12 anti-aircraft guns -- machine-guns, I went together with
13 Ramush Haradinaj.
14 Q. And did you provide advice on -- let me withdraw that?
15 What did you do -- what did you do when you went to inspect them?
16 What was the purpose of the visit?
17 A. The purpose of my visit was to see how the weapons were
18 positioned, where they were placed, in the proper place, and to see how
19 the soldiers were doing, whether they were properly trained in the use of
20 such weapons.
21 Q. And do you know how many soldiers were manning those particular
23 A. When I visited them at the time that I was there, there were
24 about five or six people.
25 Q. Were they members of any units as far as you could ascertain?
1 A. Yes, they were members of the Gllogjan unit.
2 Q. How did you know that? Who told you that?
3 A. I was there with Ramush, visiting.
4 Q. You've mentioned visits to other villages in the area, including
5 Rznic and Saptej I think is the pronunciation. Who arranged to take you
6 to those -- to those areas -- to those villages --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, could we first try to -- to better
8 understand the last answer given by the witness.
9 You said, Mr. Zyrapi: "They were members of the Gllogjan unit,"
10 you gave that as a fact. Mr. Di Fazio then asked you: "How did you know
11 that? Who told you that?" Which already suggested that you heard it
12 from someone. But apart from that, he then said: "I was there with
13 Ramush visiting," did you intend to say that Ramush told you that these
14 were members of his unit?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
19 Q. You've mentioned in your evidence visits to other areas and
20 villages during your -- this brief tour. Who made arrangements to take
21 you to these other locations?
22 A. After Gllogjan, as I said, I visited Irzniq, together with
23 Ramush. There we met the commander of the Irzniq unit, local commander,
24 Shemsedin Qeku, and we visited Togeri, the rapid intervention unit, which
25 was situated in the vicinity of the school, I think 100 or 150 metres
1 from the school.
2 After this visit, we continued on to Prilep, where there, too, we
3 met the local commander of the village, Maliq Ndrecaj, I think was his
4 name. And there we went also together again with Ramush.
5 Q. Thank you. Okay. Now, you've told us where you went and some of
6 the people you saw, and I'll ask you some more questions about that in a
7 moment. But what I'd like to know is: How did you arrive at the
8 decision to go to these places? How was that worked out, on what basis?
9 Why Rznic? Why Saptej? Why any of these other places? Why speak to
10 those particular individuals? I'd just like to know how -- how it was
11 brought about.
12 A. I went there to visit the units. That's why I asked to visit
13 these places and these units to see how the level of their organisation
14 was, how well they were organised. And then after my demand to go and
15 visit them, Ramush made it possible for me to go and we went together, as
16 I said, to visit the places I mentioned, given the time I had at my
18 Q. Thank you. In relation to the visit to Rznic, and you mentioned
19 the rapid intervention unit, did you -- did you already know of the -- of
20 the existence of a rapid intervention unit in Rznic and ask to be taken
21 there; or were you informed once you arrived in the area? That's
22 essentially what I'd -- what I'd like to know.
23 A. I didn't have any prior knowledge of such a unit. When I arrived
24 there, I learned that there is such a unit as that of the rapid
1 Q. Thank you. And who provided you with information into -- in
2 relation to the existence of that particular unit and its location?
3 A. The zone commander.
4 Q. And who was that?
5 A. Ramush Haradinaj.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, you earlier said to the witness --
8 mentioned visit to Rznic and Saptej. Have I missed something? I
9 remember that he said Prilep and Rznic. I didn't hear him -- and I tried
10 to --
11 MR. DI FAZIO: I focused on one particular place, Rznic, and I'll
12 deal with the others --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but where did the witness say that he visited
14 Saptej? I couldn't find it.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see --
16 JUDGE ORIE: You have mentioned visits to other villages in the
17 area, including Rznic and Saptej, you said.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: I thought -- unless I'm wrong, I thought he did
19 mention that place, but if --
20 JUDGE ORIE: If it was a search on today, he said Prilep, but I
21 didn't hear him say Saptej.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Can I ask him? I'll ask him.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.
24 MR. DI FAZIO:
25 Q. Did you attend, during the course of your tour, at a village
1 called Saptej?
2 A. The village of Shaptej, yes. I went there together with
3 Sali Veseli.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps the witness can be -- we'll settle this up
6 now. The witness can be shown 65 ter 1306, which is -- consists of two
7 pages and two maps, being maps.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P119,
12 marked for identification.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay.
15 Is it possible to flip it? Thank you. And possible to enlarge
16 it a bit, please. Okay.
17 Q. Now, Witness, Mr. Zyrapi, first of all, that's an electronic
18 representation of a map. Are they your markings?
19 A. Yes. As I said, I visited in the area when I was there in
21 Q. And there's some numbering there. Number 1 is near to the
22 village of Jablanica; correct?
23 A. Yes. Number 1 is Jabllanice village, where I was the first day.
24 Q. And number 2 is, I think, Gllogjan?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Now, you see on either side of Gllogjan there are two
2 markings with, I think, the number 3 next to both of those markings.
3 What do those two markings represent?
4 A. As I said earlier, this represents the positions with the
5 anti-aircraft guns.
6 Q. Thank you. And number 5, does that indicate the village of Rznic
7 that you attended, you went to?
8 A. Yes, Irzniq village.
9 Q. Thanks. And number 6 is the village of -- it's clear, it's the
10 village of Prilep. Did you also go and carry out inspections in Prilep?
11 A. Yes, I did go to that village as well.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: And I wonder if the -- if the map can be raised
14 just a little bit more so that we see the bottom part. We see a dotted
15 line there I'm going to ask -- okay. Thank you.
16 Q. Now, you also see a dotted line going down through -- past an
17 area called -- or a place called Babaloc and then crossing over the --
18 the road that runs between -- or runs from Decani southwards. Do you see
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What does that dotted line -- what does that path represent?
22 A. It represents the way to Reka e Keqe. The route -- the route I
23 followed to go to Reka e Keqe.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, I tender that into
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Any objection?
4 It has got a number already; therefore, it's admitted into
5 evidence. By the way, Mr. Di Fazio, I stand corrected as far as the
6 witness earlier mentioning Saptej. It was in his recent answer that he
7 referred to Prilep, but some nine pages prior to that he mentioned
8 Saptej. The problem is that it was spelt in a different way. So when I
9 searched for it, I missed it.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: I apologise for that.
12 Please proceed.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I just -- has now the two maps document been
14 admitted or just the first map?
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Just the first one.
16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Are you going to come back to the second map?
17 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm going to come back to the second one in due
18 course. I think they need separate -- separate numbers.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: It is one. One and the same number, or is it in
20 separate numbers?
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, there's one that I've just taken the witness
22 through which also bears the word "Annex A," and that's now got a number,
23 I understand.
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Only the one?
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Only the one.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: It's a combined piece.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, it was originally as part of the statement,
3 if Your Honours please, but I'm going to deal with the second map in a
4 separate portion of evidence.
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you. Sorry for interrupting.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to Your Honour for -- for covering
7 that. Thank you.
8 Q. All right. Now, I want to ask you about your visits to some of
9 these -- to these villages, and in particular I want to ask you about
10 Rznic. You've already mentioned that you went there and you -- and you
11 went there with Mr. Haradinaj and --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, at the same time in order to avoid whatever
13 confusion there is, of course, the document that has been loaded, so the
14 number of that document is not just the one map, but on page 2 we find
15 the other map. So we should --
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see.
17 JUDGE ORIE: -- we should identify clearly that -- so the number
18 just assigned was just to the first page of that document. That's now on
19 the record.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: This is exactly wanted what I wanted to ask you.
21 JUDGE ORIE: This is now on the record.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Is that the way that Your Honours
24 would -- I think -- I think that's clearer if we do it that way, give it
25 two separate numbers.
1 JUDGE ORIE: It's fine. But if you call for a certain document
2 with a certain 65 ter number, then of course Madam Registrar gets the
3 whole of that document.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: So unless there is a clear indication that only part
6 of that document should be assigned a number we ask for, then of course
7 the whole of the document gets it. So therefore -- but it's now clear.
8 It's just the first page --
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- of this document.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful, Your Honours, for that. Thank you.
12 Q. All right. Now, you've told us about your -- you started to tell
13 us about your visit to Rznic, and you've mentioned the location of a
14 rapid intervention unit there. Do you know who was in charge or who the
15 commander of this rapid intervention unit was?
16 A. When I visited the place, the commander of the rapid intervention
17 unit was Togeri.
18 Q. Was that the first time - now, I'm talking about what was in your
19 mind - as far as you were concerned, was that the first time you had met
21 A. Yes. The first time I met him was in Irzniq, yes, but I was told
22 I had also met him in Tirana, but I didn't remember it from before.
23 Q. Okay. Who told you that?
24 A. When I met Togeri, he told me that we had already met in Tirana
25 once. Of course probably we had met, because many people came and went,
1 but I couldn't remember all of them of course.
2 Q. Thanks. And did this rapid intervention unit have any -- did
3 they wear any particular sort of uniform?
4 A. When I visited them, they had black uniforms and weapons that
5 were somewhat better than the weapons that the other had. It was a very
6 short time, though, it was only 15 minutes that I stayed there at this
8 Q. Thank you. And who introduced you to Toger or Togeri?
9 A. Ramush introduced me to him.
10 Q. And did you -- were you provided with any information as to
11 whether this rapid -- rapid intervention unit was part of any larger
12 military grouping?
13 A. From what I could observe there on the spot, this was a very -- a
14 small group, a unit, but, as I told you, this was the time of the
15 re-organisation of the army. So I don't know when the unit was formed --
16 formed exactly.
17 Q. Okay. That might be when it was -- you may not know when it was
18 formed, but my question is: As far as you're aware, was it part of any
19 larger military grouping in the area?
20 A. The rapid intervention unit was at the level of the local
21 command. The rapid intervention unit were led by the zone commanders.
22 Q. And when you say "local command," just be a little more precise
23 if you wouldn't mind. What exactly are you referring to when you say
24 that the rapid intervention unit was at the level of the local command?
25 A. Rapid intervention unit in Dukagjin and in other areas were under
1 the command of the zone commanders.
2 Q. Which zone commanders do you refer to?
3 A. Could you repeat the question? You mean which in plural or who
4 in singular?
5 Q. Well, which -- you say that the rapid intervention unit that
6 you -- in Dukadjin and in other areas were under the command of the zone
7 commanders. I'm asking you about this rapid intervention unit in Rznic.
8 Was that rapid intervention unit in Rznic part of any military grouping
9 in the Dukadjini area?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And what was that?
12 A. Under the command of the Dukagjini Operational Zone.
13 Q. Thank you. If you just look back at the map that I think you
14 see -- should still be on the screen before you. You've told the
15 Trial Chamber of travelling to these areas with -- I think you said that
16 Mr. Haradinaj was with you some of the time at least. Okay --
17 A. Yes, the places I mentioned.
18 Q. Yes, yes. When you moved from one village to another, were you
19 in company with KLA soldiers?
20 A. Every time we were accompanied by KLA soldiers, especially my
22 Q. Yes. And were they armed and escorting you?
23 A. Yes, of course they were armed and I was armed as well.
24 Q. Yes. Okay. But these visits occurred during the day, the visits
25 to the anti-aircraft gun emplacements and also the villages that we see
1 mentioned there, Rznic, Prilep, Saptej, occurred during the day?
2 A. Yes, during the day.
3 Q. Did you travel by vehicle, or was it a combination of vehicle and
4 travelling on foot, or something else?
5 A. Yes. We went to some of the places by car; some other places on
7 Q. Thank you. You earlier mentioned or started to mention that you
8 went to this area of Reka e Keqe and that you've shown us the path that
9 you took, which we can see on the dotted line on that particular exhibit.
10 How did you travel from Gllogjan to the area of Reka e Keqe?
11 A. From Gllogjan when we took this dotted line, we were travelling
12 on foot.
13 Q. And who is "we"? Who precisely are you talking about?
14 A. At that time I went to visit Reka e Keqe, I was together with
15 Sali Veseli, but also a group of soldiers who accompanied us.
16 Q. Who provided you with those soldiers that -- where did they come
17 from is perhaps a clearer question?
18 A. I took these soldiers from Gllogjan, from the commander of the
20 Q. Who? Who precisely?
21 A. Ramush, from Ramush. They would escort us towards Reka e Keqe.
22 Q. Thank you. And that was their role, I take it, to provide you
23 with protection and escort you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And this particular trip into the area of Reka e Keqe was done
1 entirely on foot?
2 A. In the territory of Reka e Keqe, we went to some places by car,
3 but to some other places by foot, depending on the terrain.
4 Q. Okay. At this stage, I'm only just talking about -- have a drink
5 if you've got -- if your throat's a bit sore, Mr. Zyrapi, and clear your
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I don't know whether you are about to
8 explore that area further, then we'd like to have a break first; if,
9 however, you just finish --
10 MR. DI FAZIO: No, that would actually suit me because I can then
11 finalise the business relating to the statements and make sure that
12 that -- I'm going to get through that more smoothly.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll have a break and adjourn and resume
14 at five minutes past 6.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 5.44 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 6.09 p.m.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours. I wonder if, just before
19 I do, just on a matter of timing for tomorrow, I know my colleagues were
20 concerned about when to next bring in the next witness, and I'll probably
21 be about another 20 minutes, 25 minutes I would say with this witness.
22 And I wonder if Mr. Emmerson or indeed all Defence counsel give us an
23 idea, even a vague idea would be helpful about how long they will be with
24 this witness so we can time bringing in the next gentleman.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, and other Defence counsel, could you
1 give us an impression?
2 MR. EMMERSON: I would have thought something in the region of
3 about two hours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Just for you or --
5 MR. EMMERSON: That's what I had in mind for myself.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Mr. Guy-Smith.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: I contemplate between 20 and 40 minutes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Mr. Harvey?
11 MR. HARVEY: I imagine something in the region of 20 minutes,
12 depending on my colleagues, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. That's very useful, and I'll make sure
15 that my colleagues are informed of that.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That would altogether take approximately two
17 sessions, but let's also see how much time we still need on the
18 documents, et cetera. Please proceed.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Thank you very much.
20 Q. Now, you were talking earlier in your evidence about this trip
21 that you made to the area of Reka e Keqe. Did you travel there, as
22 you've said, on foot during the day or at night?
23 A. During the night.
24 Q. What was the reason for that?
25 A. Because Serb forces were positioned along the road
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: I'd like the witness to be shown 65 ter what was
4 1306 page 2, the second page of the -- of the -- that formerly two-page
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar --
7 MR. DI FAZIO: It's a map and it will have marked at the top of
8 it "Annex B" side of it.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P120,
11 marked for identification.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. And I wonder if the bottom left-hand
14 quadrant could be -- yeah. Thanks very much.
15 Q. All right. Witness, firstly, are those your markings?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Again, you see a dotted line. Going from Glodjane down to a
18 place called Smolice. Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is that the path that you took to get to this area?
21 A. Yes, it is. It represents the route I took up to Reka e Keqe.
22 Q. And you can see, obviously, that the road from Decani heading
23 southwards towards Djakovica, you see three round circles on that road.
24 What do those round circles represent?
25 A. These circles represent the positions of the Serb forces.
1 Q. Who provided you with intelligence or information as to the
2 position of the Serb forces?
3 A. I received the information from Sali Veseli. He had information
4 where the Serb forces were along this road.
5 Q. Do you know if they were fixed positions?
6 A. I don't know, but that's what I was told, that the Serb forces
7 were positioned there during the time I was visiting.
8 Q. And it would seem that your path necessarily involved crossing
9 the road. Was that dangerous?
10 A. Yes, of course it was dangerous because we were passing through
11 an area where there were Serb forces.
12 Q. Thanks. You've mentioned some of the precautionary measures, one
13 of which was travelling at night. And was the provision of this escort
14 also designed to make sure -- well, designed to protect you from any Serb
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You -- did you successfully cross the road and -- without any --
18 being subjected to any attack from Serb forces?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And did you eventually make it into the Reka e Keqe area?
21 A. Yes.
22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Into what area did you mean? Maybe -- can we
23 clarify that on the-- at the map --
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'll --
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- because the interrupted line in fact does not
1 go to Smolice, which was mentioned in your initial question. And
2 therefore, I'm a little lost with the end of that trip. Maybe can you
3 clarify that.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. That's -- I think Your
5 Honour's quite correct.
6 Q. Where did you actually travel to? What was the name of the
7 village that you travelled to?
8 A. We travelled at night, as I said. We arrived at about 2.00 or
9 3.00 a.m. First of all, we arrived at Ramoc village. We were there at
10 dawn and Naim Maloku came later. With him we went to the village of
12 Q. Thank you. The map that you can see on the screen before you
13 also has, apart from the dotted line showing your path, another dotted
14 line enclosing an area in which you can see showing the initials NM and
15 other initials, AH. What area is designated? What area is that area
16 that's enclosed, including Junik and -- Junik and -- clearly Junik?
17 A. Yes, the initials NM mean Naim Maloku where he was at the staff
18 in Smolice and also AH, which is Aziz Hyseni in Smolice.
19 Q. Thank you. Who was Aziz Hyseni, precisely?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: In Junik not
21 Smolice, the second one.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Aziz was the commander of the staff
23 in Junik at the time.
24 MR. DI FAZIO:
25 Q. And what was the overall point, the purpose of your travelling to
1 this area?
2 A. The aim of my visit to this area was this: First of all, to
3 visit the area and to acquaint ourselves with the units that were in the
4 area, and also to incorporate the units of this area in the Dukagjini
6 Q. And how long did you stay in the area?
7 A. As I said, I arrived early in the morning and I stayed all day.
8 This was the third day. I visited, I toured the area. And then I was
9 told that in Rahovec there had been an attack by the Serb forces. At the
10 end of the day I left; I followed the same path towards Gllogjan and then
11 to Rahovec.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you return to Gllogjan at night?
13 A. Yes. Otherwise it was impossible to pass during the day. So I
14 left at night. But when I arrived there at about 11.00 p.m., when -- in
15 Gllogjan, then Ramush told me that I had to go to Rahovec. He gave me a
16 car, by which I went to Jabllanice --
17 Q. Thank you. --
18 A. -- where Lahi Brahimaj was waiting for me.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Excuse me, Mr. Di Fazio. Have you inquired into
20 when this three-days tour took place?
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, the evidence we have so far is mid-July I
22 believe. I don't think there's anything more specific than that.
23 Q. Witness, can you help His Honour. You've mentioned mid-July for
24 this visit. Have you got any -- can you offer any more precision than
1 A. This was a time I went. It was mid-July, and this was the third
2 day of my tour in the area of Dukagjin.
3 Q. Okay --
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
5 MR. DI FAZIO:
6 Q. -- and following which you then left the area to go to Orahovac
7 where there were reports of fighting breaking out. Is that -- do I
8 understand your evidence correctly?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now I want to return to Reka e Keqe. You've
11 told us that your purpose was to speak -- to -- I think unify commands
12 and incorporate this area. With -- which command in particular did you
13 want to unify?
14 A. With command of the local staff in Junik, to join it with the
15 Dukagjini Operational Zone.
16 Q. Thank you. And did you speak to Aziz Hyseni and Naim Maloku
17 about that very topic and about that proposal. Just tell us if you did
18 or didn't?
19 A. Yes, I did talk with them regarding the purpose of my visit to
20 that territory. They agreed to join the command of Dukagjini Operational
22 Q. Thank you. Was that -- was it the view of the KLA General Staff
23 that that should occur?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Had you spoken to Ramush Haradinaj about that; and if so, had he
1 expressed any views?
2 A. Yes, I had spoken with him, and his view was that they -- these
3 staffs should be incorporated under the operational zone staff.
4 Q. And was that eventually accomplished? Was this area of Reka e
5 Keqe incorporated into the Dukadjin -- the command of the Dukadjini
6 Operational Zone?
7 A. Yes, but I don't know the exact time of this joining or merger
8 because of the poor communication.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, let's -- I want to return again to the -- to
10 your visit into the Reka e Keqe area?
11 MR. EMMERSON: I'm so sorry. I wonder if that last -- the last
12 two words of that last answer might be explained.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: It will -- in fact, that's a topic that I fully
14 intend to cover --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: But I'd like to proceed in my own way if I may and
17 we'll deal with that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. DI FAZIO:
20 Q. Naim Maloku was right down south in the Reka e Keqe area, and
21 Aziz Hyseni was up north in that area in Junik. How did you get from
22 Ramoc up to Junik to speak to Aziz Hyseni?
23 A. From Smolice together with Naim Maloku, we went by car to Junik.
24 Q. And did you have your escort of soldiers with you?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you travelled during the day up there and had -- conferred
2 with Aziz Hyseni?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And did you travel back to Ramoc again, that day?
5 A. Yes, we travelled back on the same day in the evening, and then
6 we continued our way on foot to Gllogjan.
7 Q. Thanks. That's what I wanted to know. Did you actually retrace
8 your steps, so to speak, back to Glodjane?
9 A. Yes, we did.
10 Q. You earlier, in answer, mentioned some --
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me. Yeah.
12 Q. You mentioned -- you made a reference to "poor communication."
13 Can you tell us what the communication was like between this area of
14 Reka e Keqe - and I'm talking in military terms now of course - between
15 Reka e Keqe and the Dukadjini Operational Zone?
16 A. At the time that I visited it, it was difficult to communicate
17 because it was impossible to have direct communication or through
18 courier. The courier had to pass through all this territory, which was
19 rife in perils. And I didn't observe communication through radios,
20 Motorola or other means of communication.
21 Q. Would a courier have faced the same problem you did in getting
22 from the Gllogjan area to Reka e Keqe and vice versa; namely, the Serb
23 positions on that road?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours give me a moment, please.
1 [Prosecution counsel confer]
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you.
3 Q. You mentioned that when you got back to the Gllogjan area,
4 Lahi Brahimaj was there. What --
5 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated].
6 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry.
7 MR. EMMERSON: That's not a correct statement of the evidence.
8 MR. DI FAZIO:
9 Q. After you crossed the road, the road leading down to Djakovica,
10 did you -- where did you go?
11 A. After I returned, I went back to Gllogjan, and there I met
12 Ramush. He gave me a car to go to Jabllanice. And then I was called by
13 the General Staff to go to Rahovec.
14 Q. I think you -- who did you see in Jablanica? Which personalities
15 did you meet in Jablanica?
16 A. In Jabllanice, I met Lahi Brahimaj, who was waiting for us to
17 convey to me the order of the General Staff to go back; and in his car,
18 we went to Rahovec.
19 Q. Thank you. And was that by pre-arrangement? Did you -- did you
20 go to Jablanica intending to meet Lahi Brahimaj, or was it purely by
22 A. To meet him and to continue together on our path, on our way to
23 the General Staff --
24 JUDGE ORIE: [Previous translation continues]...
25 MR. HARVEY: -- very unfortunate misprint at line 11 on page 83,
1 the order of the General Staff was actually what the witness said, and
2 Your Honours can see what is and should not be there. I thought I should
3 stop that right now.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that it's a sensitive
5 expression, of course, in this context. It will be corrected. Attention
6 is asked specifically of those who are correcting the transcript,
7 page 83, line 11.
8 MR. DI FAZIO:
9 Q. You still haven't really clarified it as clearly as I would like
10 it to be clarified, please. When you're travelling towards Jablanica,
11 was it in your mind, did you intend, to meet up with Lahi Brahimaj?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. Now, how did that come about? Why -- why was that your plan and
14 how did that come to be your plan?
15 A. Lahi Brahimaj was a member of the General Staff, and he had
16 received orders that we go back to the General Staff, who was -- which
17 was located in Rahovec for the moment.
18 Q. That may be so, that may be so, but why and how did it come about
19 that you intended to catch up with, meet with, Lahi Brahimaj?
20 A. As I said earlier, the order given by the General Staff was to
21 return because of the fighting going on in Rahovec. And the person who
22 brought this order from the General Staff was Lahi Brahimaj, who was
23 waiting for us in Jabllanice. After I returned from Reka e Keqe zone, I
24 went to Gllogjan. There Ramush Haradinaj told us to go back to Rahovec.
25 And then he gave -- lended me a car and escorted me up to Jabllanice --
1 which escorted me up to Jabllanice. I met Lahi Brahimaj, he gave me the
2 order, and together we went to Rahovec, where the General Staff was
3 located at that time.
4 Q. In the time that you were touring during this tour of three days,
5 other than the Serb positions that you've mentioned, did you encounter
6 any other Serb positions?
7 A. When I toured Prilep village, the road was -- which goes to
8 Decane-Gjakove was nearby and the Serbian forces had taken up positions
9 there, but not in the hinterland of the villages.
10 Q. Thank you. I'd like to show you some statements, please.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: If the witness can be shown - I've got now hard
12 copies and also from e-court - the -- we'll deal perhaps first with the
13 November 2005 statement, that's 65 ter 1308, and perhaps if I may have
14 the assistance of --
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think we earlier assigned already a number to the
16 November 2005 statement, so I take it that then this one will replace,
17 Madam Registrar, the earlier one.
18 Yes. That's confirmed. Has it been uploaded in e-court,
19 Mr. Di Fazio? I see Madam Registrar is nodding yes, so --
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And -- yes. This is now the November 2005
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I would like to produce hard copies for the -- for
24 the benefit of the witness. I've got hard copies of the Albanian version
25 and the -- and the English version.
1 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, do you recognise your signature anywhere on that
2 document that's -- you're advised to look at the English, I think.
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Thank you. You also have an Albanian version of the statement.
5 Could you just have a quick -- quick look at that and so that you can
6 acquaint yourself with this particular statement, the translation.
7 Now, do you recall giving that statement to the officers of the
8 OTP, the Office of the Prosecutor?
9 A. Yes, I have given the statement to the OTP in November.
10 Q. Yes. And does that contain information which you would provide
11 again if questioned about those topics in that statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: I tender the statement, if Your Honours please.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since there are no objections, the -- one
16 second, please.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: It's admitted into evidence.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: The English being the original one.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I would now like to show
25 the April 2007 statement to Mr. Zyrapi, and also produce to him the hard
1 copies of the English and the Albanian versions.
2 Q. Mr. Zyrapi --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P121,
5 marked for identification.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
8 Q. Mr. Zyrapi, I'd just like to basically repeat all the same
9 questions that I put to you in relation to the other statement; namely,
10 can you identify the statement, just refresh your memory, as to see -- in
11 order to see which statement it is? Look at the signatures, and then can
12 you tell us if that statement contains material that you would provide to
13 this Chamber if you were asked questions about those topics?
14 A. Yes, it's my signature and I will, as you say.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon --
16 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please --
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: As a matter of fact, two annexed maps we made now
18 two different exhibits, didn't we?
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, the maps are tendered separately from -- they
20 were once part of the statement, but they've now gone in separately.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, Mr. Di Fazio, let's have a look at what
22 you are providing to us at this moment. That's the April 2007. Let me
23 just have a look again at the e-mail.
24 "Oral evidence will be led of the material referred to in
25 paragraphs 1 to 11."
1 I see that -- or am I at the wrong one now? Let's just have a
2 look. I'm afraid I'm at the wrong one. Yes --
3 MR. DI FAZIO: I've been assured it's been correctly redacted
4 this --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's have a look. No, this is the April
6 statement. I think I've got the -- do I have the right one? Yes. No, I
7 see it's fine now.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, that now leaves the
11 question of the -- the exhibits. I -- I think in this -- from the point
12 of view of speed and efficiency, if all of the documents referred to in
13 the statement, the 2007 statement, can, at the very least, be marked for
14 identification. The issue of their full admissibility is a matter that
15 the parties can address to you in -- perhaps in written form, perhaps by
16 way of motion, if necessary. And there may be and it may be, as
17 Mr. Emmerson pointed out to you, there may be no -- no problems with a
18 good number of those -- of those documents.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has Madam Registrar a list of those documents
20 so that she -- are these the numbers we find on the pages -- I mean,
21 would that be sufficient for Madam Registrar to -- of the numbers we find
22 in paragraph 48 of the April statement?
23 MR. DI FAZIO: I've provided a spreadsheet, if Your Honours
24 please, that will enable connections to be made for --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Apparently that bears the number -- the
2 spreadsheet that I've prepared bears the number 65 ter 1305. Now, I
3 don't need to tender that into -- into evidence. That's just a
4 spreadsheet. It's just --
5 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. Just to assist Madam Registrar, we could
6 later --
7 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right.
8 JUDGE ORIE: -- check on the basis of the list of documents
9 marked for identification. Yes.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: So --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, then I take it that the Defence would
12 agree that Madam Registrar takes her time to have it all properly noted?
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I have no difficulty with that, and on the
14 assumption that no issue is taken as between a facsimile stamp of the
15 signature and the signature itself, then -- then I have no difficulty
16 with this witness being used as the vehicle through which those documents
17 are marked for identification and, if appropriate, tendered. I'm making
18 that assumption because I don't suppose he was in a position to identify
19 the difference between the one and the other.
20 JUDGE ORIE: No, unless he has seen the originals, I do not know.
21 Mr. Di Fazio, has the witness been shown, when he commented on it, copies
22 or has he been shown -- and apart from that, stamps have the advantage of
23 usually being the same all the time without any variation.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: The witness -- the witness made reference to
1 stamps in the 2007 statement.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: In fact, you --
4 MR. EMMERSON: It's a different reference in a different context.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, for example, if you find us this comment:
6 "This document contains the long and short version of Ramush Haradinaj's
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Yes.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Has the witness then seen the original?
10 MR. DI FAZIO: No, no, no.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay, so on -- that means that -- is there any
12 document where the -- where the Office of the Prosecution assumes that
13 the witness says anything more than that: This signature, as found in a
14 copy of a document, is a signature the witness identifies as the same
15 also what he knows to be Mr. Haradinaj's signature? I mean, is there
16 any -- any moment where the Prosecution would like to use this evidence
17 as to say that Mr. Haradinaj personally signed the document rather than
18 that a stamp with his signature has been put on that document?
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, not on the basis of this witness's evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: All he can say is this -- I recognise the
22 signature, the long and the short versions.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Now, whether -- I don't think he goes so far as to
25 say as to how that came to be placed there, whether it was by human hand
1 or whether it was by mechanism of a stamp.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: But he does recognise the long and the short
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then it's perfectly clear what -- what the
6 extent is to which this proves anything at all.
7 Mr. Guy-Smith, Mr. Harvey, do you take a similar position as the
8 Haradinaj Defence?
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, with regard to any issues concerning
10 signatures there, I don't know to what extent there is going to be any
11 reliance on some of the commentary in which there was interpretative
12 remarks made concerning some of these documents.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it is -- I think it's a comment on which you
14 could cross-examine the witness. It's -- it's 92 ter testimony at this
15 moment. Very often it just says: I recognise the signature. But if
16 it's more, then of course it's what the witness, under 92 ter, has --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm referring to such -- such matters as:
18 "According to the title of this document is minutes of a meeting
19 between," and it goes on. I don't find it -- I don't find it
20 particularly helpful, but I certainly don't object to its inclusion.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. If you don't object -- of course, sometimes
22 if the title of a document is: This is a list of people who were paid by
23 Mr. X, Y, or Z, then of course if that's -- if that's the title, the
24 comment does not add much to that, apart from that the witness doesn't
25 contradict that.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's what I'm referring to.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
3 MR. HARVEY: I'm in accordance with the Haradinaj position on
4 this, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harvey.
6 Mr. Di Fazio, I take it that you'd like to tender this, and I do
7 understand we were about to hear whether there were any objections --
8 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Tender -- tender what precisely?
11 JUDGE ORIE: The 92 ter statement --
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I'm sorry. My -- yes, that is my intention.
13 JUDGE ORIE: And with due -- of course, we'll duly observe the
14 clarifications made by the Defence, and the April statement is then
15 admitted into evidence.
16 I've checked it now on the e-court. Everything is fine now,
17 Mr. Di Fazio. Thank you for that.
18 Any further questions?
19 MR. DI FAZIO: No.
20 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Zyrapi.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: And If Your Honours please, I have no further
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 Yes. Well, Mr. Di Fazio, I sometimes am rather critical about
25 timing and times, but it's only fair to say that this time you did
1 perfectly well in this respect.
2 MR. EMMERSON: Three things, if I may. First of all, just a
3 short clarification. I've assumed that Your Honour's last ruling in
4 relation to the 92 ter statement is not to be understood by anybody as a
5 ruling that the documents that are referred to in that statement have yet
6 been the subject of a ruling as to their admission in evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: No. As a matter of fact, Madam Registrar is
8 uploading them, then -- I'm just talking at this moment about --
9 MR. EMMERSON: The statement itself.
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- the statement itself and the annexes which have
11 been blacked by now.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So there are no annexes anymore. No, I take it then
14 tomorrow, Mr. Di Fazio, that -- I take it the Defence will have a closer
15 look at it. I do, however, understand that there seems to be no major
16 problems --
17 MR. EMMERSON: That is essentially correct, yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber, of course, would like to hear as
19 soon as possible if there's any remaining problem with any of these
20 documents which are now put into the system by Madam Registrar and
21 provided with sequential numbers marked for identification,
22 Madam Registrar. Yes. We will then later decide on that.
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. There are one or two documents amongst them
24 which neither emanate from this witness nor are documents upon which he
25 purports to recognise the signature of -- and indeed, are not documents
1 purportedly issued by Mr. Haradinaj.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes.
3 MR. EMMERSON: So there are one or two individual items that may
4 need to be weeded out.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I suggest the following: That Madam Registrar
6 prints out the list once she has assigned numbers to them, and that we'll
7 then hear in a negative way that -- from the Defence teams that this and
8 this there are objections against, well, let's say, be 167 and -- so that
9 we get the numbers of those objected. We can then -- we then can easily
10 decide what is admitted and we'll hear what the objections would be.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: With respect, I think that's an excellent idea.
12 Can I suggest, though, just the latter part of what Your Honour has
13 discussed. If the Defence were to indicate to us which particular items
14 they object to being admitted into evidence, that that matter could then
15 be resolved by way of written submission rather than -- rather than
16 discussing it. It might make it simpler and take less time --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it depends on whether -- it depends on whether
18 we would still need to receive further information from the witness,
19 which of course the Chamber at this moment can't exclude, but if the
20 parties agree at a certain moment --
21 MR. DI FAZIO: At the conclusion, perhaps, of his evidence, at
22 the conclusion. Because what I would not like to -- to do is to have to
23 come into court and argue the admissibility of a particular document or
24 another one without being prepared properly for it.
25 Now, if the Defence indicates that, it seems to me it's a more
1 orderly manner, and they would then be entitled to respond to us and so
3 JUDGE ORIE: If the Defence then informs the Prosecution what are
4 the problematic documents and also tells the Prosecution why they are
5 problematic, then we might save time in court.
6 Anything else at this moment, Mr. Emmerson?
7 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated].
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I wonder whether it makes any sense to start
9 with the cross-examination. I don't think so, as a matter of fact.
10 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated].
11 Might we use the time to take stock of the position in terms of
12 planning the remainder of the week.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Because I appreciate Your Honour's desire to speak
15 to see how the week evolves, but one of the difficulties is in terms of
16 allocating time.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but we don't have to keep the witness in the
18 courtroom for that reason.
19 Therefore, Mr. Zyrapi, we'll stop for the day. We'll continue
20 tomorrow morning at 9.00.
21 And, Madam Registrar, would that be in the same courtroom? No,
22 most likely in Courtroom II. Yes.
23 We'll continue tomorrow in another courtroom, Courtroom II, and I
24 would like to instruct you that you should not speak with anyone about
25 the testimony, whether you gave it already or you're still about to give
1 it tomorrow.
2 Madam Usher, could you escort the witness out of the courtroom.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Tomorrow, part of the day will be spent on the
5 cross-examination of this witness. From what I understand, it will be,
6 well, three and a half hours approximately, altogether there might be
7 some more questions. So that takes the whole of the session of tomorrow,
8 I would say, if there are any additional questions by the Bench, we have
9 to look at the admission of some of the documents, whether there are
10 still some problems.
11 So my estimate is that where usually we have some four hours, a
12 little bit over four hours available, that that would take most, if not
13 all, of the time tomorrow. That would mean that the next witness to be
14 called on Wednesday -- Mr. Di Fazio, next witness is scheduled for how
15 much time?
16 MR. DI FAZIO: I can provide you with an answer in a moment, if
17 Your Honours please.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Two and a half hours I'm being told to my left.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right. I've just seen it's two and a half
21 JUDGE ORIE: Two and a half hours.
22 Any idea on how much time cross-examination would take?
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, my estimate and having discussed it with
24 colleagues, obviously these things are never quite as reliable as one
25 would hope, but my estimate is that we would be thinking of something
1 between two and a half, three hours in total, and possibly less than
3 JUDGE ORIE: In total. So that would make altogether five to
4 five and a half hours.
5 The witness scheduled after that, Mr. Di Fazio, how much time
6 would that witness ...
7 MR. DI FAZIO: 3.5, three and a half.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Three and a half.
9 That would take how much time for cross-examination?
10 MR. EMMERSON: Something similar, I think.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that would make seven hours. So we would
12 then have remaining 12 and a half -- 12 to 12 and a half hours. We'll
13 not sit on -- and that would be after we had finished the
14 cross-examination of this witness, which means that it's totally
15 impossible to hear before Friday both of these remaining witnesses.
16 Under those circumstances -- but let me just confer with my colleagues.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has looked at it. If the next witness,
19 where cross-examination could not start immediately after
20 examination-in-chief but only on Thursday, then we would use the
21 remaining time, since there's no possibility for the third witness to
22 finish, either we should keep him here. But I think to start with him on
23 Wednesday in chief and then not have him -- that's perhaps not a good
24 idea. On the same time, the third witness scheduled for this week,
25 there's more time needed for him altogether, it's seven hours. I don't
1 know whether there are some -- I mean, if we have to send one witness
2 home for the time being, then the issue is whether it should be the
3 second one or the third one. And that's something perhaps the parties
4 could briefly consider among themselves. Because I do see that we -- if
5 we would start with the third witness, and let's just assume that that
6 would be somewhere later tomorrow, then we would have a -- an assessed
7 seven hours of testimony to be finished this week. If, however, we would
8 start with the second witness, we have an assessed five and a half --
9 five to five and a half hours to go. So at the end of the week, the
10 question is whether it's better to have a witness remaining for seven
11 hours or to have a witness remaining for five and a half hours.
12 I don't know -- of course it also depends on preparation. I'm
13 aware of that.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly. One of the concerns I have -- and I had
15 actually thought whether the problems that we have might be resolved by
16 reversing the order of the witnesses. And in fact, whichever witness
17 comes next, for different reasons in terms of the order of preparation
18 and the late service of material on Friday, we are -- I am going to be in
19 difficulties beginning cross-examination before Thursday morning of
20 either of them.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, so that wouldn't make any --
22 MR. EMMERSON: So in a sense, I think, and given the amount of
23 material that has to be worked through; if, for example, on Wednesday the
24 evidence-in-chief of that witness took less than the full half-day
25 session, I can certainly assure Your Honours that the additional hour or
1 so is time which will be extremely valuably spent in seeking to ensure
2 that we've mastered the material which we are struggling against the time
3 to get on top of.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, is there anything you would like to
6 add to that? There seems to be a clear preference of the Defence not to
7 change the order of appearance of the witnesses.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: No, I don't think that should occur. I think that
9 might lead to complications.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't want to say too much, but the personal
12 circumstances of the two witnesses --
13 JUDGE ORIE: I was just seeking your position as whether or not
14 you would have a clear wish to change it in order to save time within
15 your 125 hours.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: We --
17 JUDGE ORIE: But, that seems not to be the case.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: We want to maintain the order.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber then will hear the
20 examination-in-chief of the second witness scheduled for this week to
21 start, once we have finished the cross-examination of the present
22 witness, and the Defence is allowed to start its cross-examination on
23 Thursday, but is expected to finish that also within the time scheduled
24 so that re-examination and questions of the Judges would be finished so
25 that that witness could return at the end of Thursday.
1 MR. EMMERSON: May I express on behalf of all Defence counsel our
2 thanks for that flexibility.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Then, if there's nothing else, we adjourn until tomorrow, 9.00,
5 Courtroom II.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.05 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 24th day of
8 April, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.