Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3471

1 Thursday, 26 April 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 The Chamber would like to invite the parties to address the

11 matters of the notes, having now seen the original one will be returned to

12 the Prosecution as they provided it. The parties are invited to address

13 the Court not more than five minutes on the matter how to proceed at this

14 very moment. If you could do it in less than five minutes, that would be

15 appreciated.

16 May I take it that the matter is equal for all Defence counsel;

17 that doesn't make any difference whether it's Mr. Haradinaj or

18 Mr. Brahimaj or Mr. Balaj?

19 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

21 MR. EMMERSON: I can deal with it I hope in two minutes.


23 MR. EMMERSON: The position is Your Honours will have seen the

24 copies and translations I hope of the contents of the notebook.

25 Comparisons have been made between those notes and the notes that were

Page 3472

1 supplied in December. There is no verbatim information from the December

2 notes that appears in the notebook.

3 There are two pages where there is some similar information, but

4 it's limited to one line on one page and two pieces of information on

5 another page, which essentially are the dates on which this witness made

6 his OTP witness statement. So other than those two isolated examples, all

7 of the information in the notebook comes from some source other than the

8 notes that were supplied in December.

9 In terms of practical proposals - and we're all anxious to reduce

10 delay, for obvious reasons, as much as possible - we've discussed the

11 matter between ourselves. The suggestion we put forward for the Chamber's

12 consideration is that we proceed now with examination-in-chief and with

13 Mr. Kearney keeping as far as he can to the time estimate with

14 cross-examination.

15 We then break and depending upon whether Your Honours wish to

16 conclude cross-examination tomorrow or -- or at some later stage. The

17 witness, as I understand it, has not been able to obtain the notes

18 overnight. It may be that the most convenient thing would be to break at

19 the end of the session today, for the witness to obtain his notes, and

20 then to return for further cross-examination if necessary.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You say let's proceed with examination-in-chief,

22 cross-examination, and, if need be, re-call for cross-examination once we

23 have received everything.

24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I think one would expect him to return after

25 the break with his notes, then to be examined; and then, in fact, if there

Page 3473

1 is rise for cross-examination, for the cross-examination to be concluded

2 at that stage, if Your Honours are in agreement.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And when you're talking about the break, you

4 mean the break of the week?

5 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, yes.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.

7 Mr. Kearney.

8 MR. KEARNEY: That's our understanding also. Mr. Emmerson and I

9 has a long talk this morning about the matter, and we feel that we should

10 just go as far as we can today. Hopefully, we can finish the direct

11 examination and perhaps a good portion of cross. Let the witness go home,

12 gather every note he can possibly find, come back with them, and then we

13 can finish the matter at that point.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will decide at a later stage

15 whether we now already decide that he should return to the Hague with the

16 notes, or whether he's expected to send the notes to The Hague, and then

17 we'll then consider whether or not he's needed here in The Hague for

18 further cross-examination. It is as if the parties could have read the

19 mind of the Chamber.

20 The Chamber, of course, has considered the matter well in advance

21 and was inclined to find a similar solution but first wanted to hear the

22 parties about it. We'll proceed as suggested by the parties, and the

23 witness will be instructed to deliver in one way or another, through the

24 Victims and Witnesses Section most likely, his notes to The Hague after he

25 has returned home.

Page 3474

1 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the

2 courtroom.

3 Mr. Kearney, in the present circumstances, of course, the Chamber

4 would very much appreciate if you would strictly adhere to time

5 assessments, if you would even be able to gain a bit of time that would

6 enhance the possibility that we would finish with the -- I would say the

7 normal line of examination-in-chief and cross-examination today.

8 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, we'll do the best we can. Obviously,

9 there is substantial material to elicit from this witness, however. So

10 we'll go as fast as we can.


12 [The witness entered court]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Please be seated, Witness 29.

14 I'd like to remind you that the solemn declaration you gave

15 yesterday still binds you; that means that you still have to answer all

16 questions in accordance with the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

17 the truth. You'll now be examined by Mr. Kearney, and we now move on, not

18 just about notes but about what happened at the time.

19 Mr. Kearney, please proceed.

20 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

21 And with the Court's permission, I'd like to call up, if I may, 65

22 ter number 1312. This is the 92 ter statement of the witness.

23 JUDGE ORIE: That is the nine-paragraph 92 ter statement. Perhaps

24 I could already ask the Defence whether there's any objection against

25 admission of.

Page 3475

1 MR. EMMERSON: None, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE ORIE: There's none, so let's first hear the witness answer

3 the questions about it.

4 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/29 [Resumed]

5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 Examination by Mr. Kearney: [Continued]

7 Q. Witness 29, do you see a document on the screen in front of you?

8 A. Yes, I see it.

9 Q. Do you recognise that document, Witness 29?

10 A. Yes, of course.

11 Q. And do you recognise both your name and your signature on that

12 document?

13 JUDGE ORIE: The name, as shown now, and signature.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can see my name, my

15 signature, and some of my notes, and my signature.

16 MR. KEARNEY: And I wonder if we could show the witness the actual

17 text of that statement, please.

18 JUDGE ORIE: That would be on the next page -- no. It says this

19 is 1 page out of 1.


21 Q. Witness 29, please take a look at the nine paragraphs there

22 reflected in that statement, and I would like to ask you, first of all, if

23 you recognise what is being discussed in those paragraphs and if those are

24 your true words.

25 A. Yes. What I see here is part of the statement I gave.

Page 3476

1 Q. And the information contained in that document, is it accurate?

2 A. All the information I gave is accurate from all the things that I

3 remembered. I don't know if I forgot anything. It's been a long time,

4 and maybe I forgot some minor detail.

5 Q. If you were asked those same questions today in court, would you

6 give those same answers?

7 A. If you ask me the same questions today, maybe I might have

8 forgotten some of the things, minor things, that have happened, but I

9 think 95 per cent of what I said I will say again.

10 Q. And --

11 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be some confusion. This statement you

12 are now looking at is the statement which you gave in this month when you

13 arrived in The Hague.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is a statement I gave some

15 time ago, not now.

16 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be some confusion. Mr. Kearney, could

17 you, please, because I see on the -- let me just check.

18 MR. KEARNEY: I can clear it up, Your Honour, I believe.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I see now where the problem lies. If you

20 look at the Albanian version, Mr. Kearney, and that's the one shown to the

21 witness -- could we go back to the first page of this document.

22 You see the problem.

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Which is now a translation from English into

24 Albanian.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's 23rd of April, 2007; whereas, the

Page 3477

1 English original says 23rd of April, 2006.

2 MR. KEARNEY: That's a -- in this case, Your Honours, the Albanian

3 version is correct. What happened is -- perhaps I can ask the witness to

4 take his headphones off if the Court would prefer.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you take off your earphones for a second.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I thought this was the consolidated new statement.

8 MR. KEARNEY: It is, Your Honour. What happened is this witness

9 made an earlier statement in 2002.


11 MR. KEARNEY: These nine paragraphs were taken from them almost

12 verbatim.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.. They are excerpts rather than anything else.

14 MR. KEARNEY: Yes. And then this week, he was shown those nine

15 paragraphs and asked to sign, again. In the English translation of the

16 document that was made just this week, the date on the front of the

17 translation of the document says "2006," when it should have said "2007."

18 The Albanian is correct.


20 MR. KEARNEY: I can ask him some more questions.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you can please clarify that with him. Of

22 course, I now better understand why he says it was quite some time ago,

23 because the text he gave was quite some time ago, although it was

24 confirmed or renewed this week.

25 Please proceed.

Page 3478

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.


3 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.


5 Q. Witness 29, the text of the document you have in front of you,

6 those paragraphs was information given to you -- or given by you to the

7 Office of the Prosecutor back some time ago, in 2002. Is that correct?

8 A. Yes, that's correct.

9 Q. But just this week, two days ago, we took part of that initial

10 statement you gave and put it into this smaller document and had you sign

11 it two days ago. Is that correct?

12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Or three days ago.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure whether it was two or

14 three days ago, but I know that we made a small intervention. I was given

15 the opportunity to read the statement again.

16 MR. KEARNEY: All right.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

18 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour, I stand corrected.

19 Q. In any event, two or three days ago when you signed this new

20 statement, you read it again and did you, before you signed it, confirm

21 that it was accurate?

22 A. Yes. I read it; and after I read it, I signed it.

23 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honours, I would, at this point, tender this

24 document, if I may.

25 JUDGE ORIE: We have heard already from the Defence that there's

Page 3479

1 no objection; therefore, the document is admitted into evidence.

2 MR. KEARNEY: And, Your Honours, I have it -- sorry.

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P263,

4 under seal.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.

7 MR. KEARNEY: And, Your Honours, obviously, that matter is under

8 seal. Is that right? That document?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar said that already.

10 MR. KEARNEY: And with the Court's permission, I have a short

11 summary of those paragraphs that I would be prepared to read into the

12 record at this time. I've given counsel a copy of that this morning.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is important that it will be read, but let's

14 not spend time on it at this very moment. It's to inform the public, but

15 that could be done on a later stage. Please proceed.


17 Q. Witness 29, I would now like to get into your testimony if we may,

18 and, specifically, I want to talk to you about your knowledge of the

19 FARK's activities in 1998. And I'd like to ask you, first, as a starting

20 point: Were you a member of the FARK in 1998?

21 A. Yes, I was a member.

22 Q. Now, you've told us in your statement that you were a common

23 soldier, but did you have any special duties within the FARK army in 1998?

24 A. During 1998, I was a simple soldier, but at the same time I also

25 had duties that were not the duties of a simple soldier. The people I

Page 3480

1 worked with during 1998 were all superior officers who had military

2 academy formation, and they tasked me with some duties.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask the Defence if it is not about actually

4 what the witness saw, et cetera, but about his position, whether there's

5 any objection against leading?


7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, in a certain area, leading will not find

8 any objection. Please proceed.


10 Q. And those commanders that you had contact with were Sali Ceku and

11 Tahir Zemaj. Is that a fair statement?

12 A. Yes. Yes, of course.

13 Q. What special duties did Mr. Ceku and Mr. Zemaj give to you during

14 1998?

15 A. In the beginning of 1998, I can't remember the exact date now, I

16 was given the duty to go from Albania to Kosovo several times to see what

17 the situation was like; then later I was given other duties as well.

18 Q. Now, these entries that you made into Kosovo to see what the

19 situation was like, that was before the formal entry of the FARK into

20 Kosovo. Is that a fair statement?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Just so we know a time-frame, what was the entry date of the

23 FARK -- the formal entry date of the FARK into Kosovo in 1998, please?

24 A. As far as I know, it was the 25th and the 26th; of course, as I

25 say, as far as I remember, because I can't be a hundred per cent sure

Page 3481

1 about the dates.

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon. The 25th and 26th of which month?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 25th and 26th of June. It was June,

4 if I'm not mistaken.

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.


7 Q. You said that before that June entry date of the FARK into Kosovo,

8 you were tasked to see what the situation in Kosovo was like. Could you

9 please expand on that. What specifically were you -- you looking to see

10 at that time?

11 A. At that time I went there to see what the situation was like.

12 Later on, when some movements of the KLA started, we were interested to

13 know how the things were developing, how ready the population was to

14 defend themselves, and if it was a situation where we could fight.

15 Q. How many of these entries into Kosovo did you make before the main

16 body of the FARK entered Kosovo?

17 A. I entered approximately ten times, maybe more, but I'm sure about

18 ten times.

19 Q. How long would these trips last typically?

20 A. It depended how long the trip would take. Sometimes the journey

21 took three to ten days. It depended on the circumstances.

22 Q. Would you go by yourself or with other FARK soldiers?

23 A. On some occasions, I took two or three of my comrades with me.

24 Sometimes I also went alone. It depended on the task I was given.

25 Q. And these ten visits we're talking about in 1998, over what span

Page 3482

1 of time were they, sir? When did you begin making these entries into

2 Kosovo and -- let me ask that date. When did you begin making these

3 entries into Kosovo?

4 A. The first time was in January 1998. The last time was, if I'm not

5 mistaken, a few days before we entered with the FARK forces in Kosovo, but

6 I'm not sure how many days earlier than that.

7 Q. What zone of Kosovo were you entering during that period of time?

8 Where were you focusing your efforts?

9 A. Usually in some villages of the municipality of Gjakove and in the

10 municipality of Decane. It was impossible to visit all the villages.

11 Q. You indicated earlier that you were assessing in part the KLA.

12 Were you also assessing Serb activity in the area during that period of

13 time?

14 A. Yes. If I was able to assess their movements, of course, it would

15 be a very good thing; but it was very difficult for me to assess them.

16 Q. And why was that?

17 A. It was difficult because at the time the KLA had started its own

18 movements, and also the Army of Yugoslavia had started its own movements.

19 So it was very difficult for me to enter in areas where the JNA dominated.

20 That's why I mainly moved in the areas where the KLA was in control.

21 Q. What area were those that the KLA was in control, and please tell

22 us -- give us a time reference if you can of the statements you're making

23 now. You said you began going into Kosovo in January, and you continued

24 making trips all the way up through June. This last question I asked you

25 about areas of KLA dominance. Please tell us, when you tell us where,

Page 3483

1 tell us also when, what time-period you're talking about.

2 A. In the beginning - I'm speaking about January 1998 - the KLA had

3 not emerged yet, and the Army of Yugoslavia was not openly operating. It

4 was only the police that was operating. So it was easier for me to go

5 from village to village, and even the other citizens could move more

6 freely; then later on, the KLA emerged, the situation exacerbated between

7 the KLA and the Serb forces. And that's why my movements became even more

8 difficult. Also the movements of the population became more difficult.

9 Q. And, again, Witness 29, please tell us what time-frame you're

10 talking about. When you say the KLA emerged and the situation between

11 they and the Serb forces exacerbated, what time-frame are you referring

12 to?

13 A. I'm referring, if I'm not wrong, to the period from 24th of March

14 onwards; and then the KLA appeared, as I said, and the circumstances

15 changed. I always want to emphasise the fact that I might make some

16 mistakes on the-- about the dates.

17 Q. Now, you indicated earlier that you noticed in your travels

18 through Kosovo in early 1998 that there were -- or in 1998 that there were

19 areas of KLA domination. I want to ask you: After March 24th, after

20 their emergence in your mind, what were the areas of KLA domination that

21 you encountered yourself during your travels?

22 A. Before March, as I said, the KLA was not present. After March,

23 there were some villages where it dominated, some others which were free

24 in the sense of there were no enemy forces or large KLA forces. Only some

25 preparations for self-defense by the peasants were underway.

Page 3484

1 Q. What were the villages where you noticed KLA dominance after March

2 24th of 1998?

3 A. After March 1998, initially, it appeared in Gllogjan, if I'm not

4 mistaken; and then, gradually, it started to spread out mostly in the

5 Decane villages. But I cannot be very certain as to its appearance and to

6 what village it did so.

7 Q. During your trips - I want to confine my time-frame now between

8 March 24th, 1998, and the end of June 1998, when the FARK forces entered

9 Kosovo - during that period of time, what villages do you remember going

10 to where there was a KLA presence or a KLA domination, as you referred to

11 earlier?

12 A. After the 24th of March that we are talking about, initially, as I

13 said, it emerged in Gllogjan village and then in all the villages --

14 almost all the villages of Decane commune. In some villages more; in some

15 villages less. I can't specify where it was more present. But beginning

16 from the 24th of March, as I said, it emerged in Gllogjan and all its

17 villages, and after that in Gjakove.

18 Q. Now, in your 2002 statement, Witness 29, you list specific

19 villages that you visited during this time-period. I'm just going to read

20 those to you. I'm going to ask you, first of all, these were villages you

21 actually did visit during that time-frame between March and June of 1998.

22 The first one was Smolice. Did you visit that village during that

23 time-period?

24 A. Yes, I did. Once I crossed the border, that's the first village

25 that you run into.

Page 3485

1 Q. Then you listed Ponashec, P-o-n-a-s-h-e-c?

2 A. Yes. Ponashec, too, lies next to the border.

3 Q. Then you visited Racaj?

4 A. Yes, that's correct.

5 Q. Junik?

6 A. That's correct.

7 Q. Herec?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Gramaqel?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Gllogjan?

12 A. True.

13 Q. Rznic?

14 A. True.

15 Q. Luka?

16 A. Yes, that's true.

17 Q. Did you notice a KLA dominance in any or all of those villages

18 during the time-period between March and June of 1998?

19 A. Yes. In these villages and in many other villages that I visited,

20 there was a KLA dominance, while the enemy forces moved along the main

21 roads.

22 Q. During your movement among these villages during this time-period,

23 did you notice KLA activity in these villages?

24 A. At that time it was the beginning. I mostly saw armed people;

25 some of them being without uniforms, some being in uniform. As I said,

Page 3486

1 they were kind of preparations to form the army; then I contacted some

2 representatives of the villages. Those people told me they were the

3 senior people in the village. I wished to meet them and talk to them,

4 but I also talked with ordinary soldiers --

5 Q. When --

6 A. -- because, in my opinion, all were equal.

7 Q. When you say senior people -- you talked to senior people in the

8 villages, are you referring to senior people within the KLA?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. What were the -- these senior people in the villages, what were

11 they called or what did you refer to them to? Were they village

12 commanders? Were they officers? Were they soldiers? How did you refer

13 to them?

14 A. In some villages, it was a representative of the village or, if I

15 might say, the commander of the village. In some villages, there was a

16 commander for all of them. So there were different, let's say,

17 organisations.

18 Q. These village commanders or these KLA village commanders, when did

19 they start -- in your own experience, when did they start appearing in

20 these villages? When did you start noticing that activity?

21 A. Always, if I am right, after the 24th of March, and kept growing

22 and spreading out every day.

23 Q. As you travelled at the village level through villages in the

24 Dukadjin area between March and June of 1998, was it your habit routinely

25 to make contact with the KLA village commanders in these villages?

Page 3487

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm going to -- I'm going to object to the

2 issue of whether it was habit. He can tell us what he did and how he -

3 excuse me, sir --


5 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- and how he proceeded. But what his habit was

6 at this juncture I think is a bit much.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Guy-Smith, you could ask for a habit by

8 just rephrasing that question: Did you usually go there or did you at all

9 times. So therefore it is a minor issue.

10 Mr. Kearney, you may proceed.

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: My only concern is how one treats a habit evidence

12 at a later point in time.

13 MR. KEARNEY: I can rephrase the question, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.


16 Q. Was it your usual practice -- did you usually make contact with

17 KLA village commanders during this time-period when you entered villages

18 in the Dukadjin Zone?

19 A. Yes. I tried to make as many contacts as I possibly could with

20 them.

21 Q. Why was that, Witness 29?

22 A. Because I wished to get the right idea of the situation, of the

23 current situation then.

24 Q. And when you say a "right idea of the current situation," what do

25 you mean by that?

Page 3488

1 A. By this I mean that I wished to meet them, but it was also part of

2 my duty given to me by my superior people, because we wanted to get to --

3 to have a very clear and correct idea of the situation of what was going

4 on. For this, we needed to meet the -- what were called then commanders

5 of the villages.

6 Q. During these discussions with the village -- the KLA village

7 commanders and soldiers, did you learn who the overall KLA commander was

8 for that region at that time?

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Or maybe before that, if there was an overall

10 commander; and then if yes, who it was.

11 MR. KEARNEY: Certainly. Thank you, Your Honour.

12 Q. Witness 29, let me rephrase that question. During this

13 time-period, between March 24th and late June of 1998, in your discussions

14 with both KLA soldiers and village commanders, did you learn if there was

15 a KLA overall commander for the Dukadjini Zone?

16 A. Yes. Not the entire Dukagjin Zone was in a state of war, but most

17 of Decane commune and part of Gjakove municipality. But each and every

18 one were saying that Ramush Haradinaj was the overall commander.

19 Q. Was Ramush Haradinaj someone who was known to you, Witness 29, at

20 that time?

21 A. Yes, I knew him -- would you please repeat the question, if you

22 can.

23 Q. Certainly. When you started hearing that the overall commander

24 was Ramush Haradinaj during that time-period in 1998, I just want to ask

25 you simply: Before that time, before 1998, did you know who that was?

Page 3489

1 A. Yes, I knew him since a long time ago. I used to know

2 Mr. Haradinaj since we -- since when we were ten or 12 years old.

3 Q. And how was it you knew him?

4 A. We know Mr. Haradinaj. We -- our villages were close to each

5 other. Besides that, we went to the same school. I wouldn't say that we

6 were classmates, but we were going to the same school. We lived very

7 close to each other and we used to see each other, sometimes talk with

8 each other.

9 Q. How many years -- first of all, what was the age difference or

10 what is the age difference between you and Mr. Haradinaj?

11 A. To tell you the truth, I am older than him, maybe two, three years

12 older. I wouldn't say that I'm older than three years; two or three, I

13 think.

14 Q. Did you attend the same schools when you were growing up?

15 A. Yes, yes. And we had good social relationship. We weren't very

16 close friends, maybe because I was a little bit older. We were not in the

17 same class, but each had his own close friends.

18 Q. How many years did you attend the same schools together?

19 A. With Mr. Haradinaj, we went to the same school for eight years to

20 what we referred to as the primary school or the low-cycle school, and

21 then two years in the high school; and then Mr. Haradinaj went to another

22 place. I went somewhere else. I don't know anymore what happened with

23 him after that.

24 Q. So during those ten-year period when you went to the same schools

25 together, how often would you see him? Was it a daily basis? A weekly

Page 3490

1 basis? A monthly basis? Please tell us about that.

2 A. Listen, please. Sometimes we saw him several times a day,

3 sometimes once a week, but the fact is that we were in the same school.

4 We were neighbours and we met sometimes, as I said, a couple of times a

5 day; sometimes once a day; sometimes -- sometimes a week. But I -- we did

6 know each other very well. So we are, I would say, kind of friends.

7 Q. Did you also know his brother Daut?

8 A. Yes. Yes, I did know Daut, too. I knew some of his brothers but

9 not all of them.

10 Q. Witness 29, I now want to move back to the entry of the FARK into

11 Kosovo. You said that this occurred in late June of 1998. I believe you

12 told us it was either the 24th or 26th of June.

13 Am I stating that correctly?

14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: 25th or 26th.

15 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

16 Q. The 25th or 26th of June. First of all, is that date correct?

17 A. Can I answer your question?

18 Q. Yes, please.

19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon. Actually, it was the 25th and 26th that

20 was how it was said.


22 Q. Witness 29, do you have the question in mind?

23 A. Yes. The date when the FARK forces left the barracks, it was the

24 24th. They stayed for one day in the Tropoja Mountains during the 25th;

25 and in the evening of the 25th, after darkness fell, they left towards

Page 3491

1 Kosova. On the 26th, we entered Kosova; that is, the 26th found us in

2 Kosova because it was past midnight.

3 Q. Describe the size of the force, please, if you will.

4 A. I wouldn't be able to give you accurate figures because it was not

5 part of my duty to count them; but when we entered Kosova, I think we were

6 about -- from 120 to 150 soldiers, including 21 officers; that is, the

7 number was from 120 to 150.

8 Q. Can you describe for us the armament that you brought with you

9 when you came into Kosovo?

10 A. We had not heavy weapons. We had, I think, what we described as

11 Kalashnikov rifles. Our senior officers had a pistol, the soldiers had

12 automatic guns; then we had some other weapons, but not heavy weapons

13 because we were walking on foot, and it was impossible for us to carry

14 heavy weapons. We were a large number of soldiers and officers, and the

15 commanders didn't want us to carry these weapons by animals.

16 First, the decision was for us to enter Kosova and then transport

17 heavier weapons afterwards. And each of the soldiers and officers had his

18 personal equipment, the munitions of the weapon itself.

19 Q. Were you in uniform?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And, Witness 29, what was your purpose in entering Kosovo? Who

22 were you going to fight?

23 A. It was clear that we entered Kosova to stand up for our people, to

24 defend them from the enemy, from the Serbian forces.

25 Q. Now, did you go to a particular village when you first entered

Page 3492

1 Kosovo?

2 A. On the 26th, in the morning, we arrived in Jasic village, and the

3 villagers warmly welcomed us. They provided us with some rooms in some

4 private homes, and then we settled there for a while, rested, and so on.

5 Q. After the FARK's arrival in Jasic, were you visited by Ramush

6 Haradinaj?

7 A. Yes. I'm not certain as to when. It was a couple of hours later

8 of the same day. Maybe after three, four hours Mr. Haradinaj came,

9 together with four or five other officers. He visited us, he entered

10 inside, and he talked with our officers.

11 Q. Did you recognise any of the other officers that Mr. Haradinaj

12 came with?

13 A. Yes, Mr. Haradinaj and another officer, whose name was Maloku.

14 I'm not sure about his pseudonym, but I had met him before in Tirana, had

15 a coffee with him, so I knew him as Mr. Naim Maloku. Mr. Maloku is a

16 career officer. He has graduated from the military academy, as far as I

17 know.

18 Q. Which military academy was that, please?

19 A. When I say the "military academy," I mean the Defence Academy, as

20 it was called then, not the police academy. At least this is how I knew

21 its name was.

22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Defence Academy, where?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the former Yugoslavia. We didn't

24 have any police academy in Kosova, so they would be either in Sarajevo or

25 in some other cities of the former Yugoslavia; in Belgrade or in Zagreb,

Page 3493

1 Ljubljana. I'm not sure.

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.


4 Q. Were you present when Mr. Haradinaj came to Jasic that first day

5 that the FARK arrived there?

6 A. No. I was in Jasic but not in the very room where officers sat.

7 And when he came, Mr. Haradinaj came with his officers and talked with our

8 officers.

9 Q. Did you hear anything that was said in that room?

10 MR. EMMERSON: I'm so sorry. Before the witness answers --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Afterwards, yes, because everything

12 that was said --

13 MR. EMMERSON: I think --


15 MR. EMMERSON: He was just about to carry on. Just so we're

16 clear, the question, "did you hear anything that was said in the room," is

17 ambiguous. In other words, did you hear it or did you hear later about

18 what was said when someone told you.

19 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know if it's ambiguous. From the answer of

20 the witness, at least, it appears that he clearly distinguished between

21 hearing at the moment, but we'll ask him to answer the question. But I'm

22 not a native speaker, Mr. Emmerson, I have to admit that. I think the

23 witness -- could you please repeat your answer.

24 You said: "Afterwards, yes," and then you said "because

25 everything that was said," and then you were interrupted. Please complete

Page 3494

1 your answer.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer it now?


4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In answer to the question made of

5 me, I tried to give an answer. During the time Mr. Haradinaj came there,

6 along with his accompanying officers, he didn't come to meet the

7 soldiers. He came to meet with the officers. The soldiers were

8 accommodated in three private houses; whereas, the officers were in

9 another house. Every soba room for men has an antechamber. Some people

10 were sitting in this antechamber and some were inside.

11 Mr. Haradinaj came to meet the officers. I could not go there and

12 sit with them and talk. It was not my right to do that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: But you started saying something about what you heard

14 afterwards. Do I understand your answer that you were not able to hear

15 the conversation that took place between Mr. Haradinaj and your

16 commanders, but that you learned about it later; if so, please tell us

17 what you learned about it?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is true. That's why I

19 said it was none of my duty to have anything to do with him.

20 Mr. Haradinaj talked with our commanders, and then we learned of talk that

21 had gone on among them; Mr. Haradinaj and our officers.


23 Q. And what was that talk? Please tell us what was said.

24 A. I will try to tell here what I heard because I wasn't present.

25 Mr. Haradinaj had told our officers that, You are not welcome here. You

Page 3495

1 can go back to where you came from. Kosova doesn't need you. You must go

2 back immediately. If you don't, we will do this and that to you.

3 It wasn't a good meeting. We expected quite another sort of

4 meeting. And among what he told our officers was, If you don't go back to

5 where you came from, we can fight together, but we are not going to fight

6 the enemy. First, we are going to fight you.

7 Q. You said the words: "If you don't -- if you don't go back

8 immediately, we will do this and that to you."

9 What exactly, if you know, did Mr. Haradinaj say to your leaders

10 during that meeting?

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, the witness can't know that. All the

12 witness can do is relate the hearsay that was made.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he said --

15 JUDGE ORIE: -- Guy-Smith, isn't it perfectly clear that whatever

16 the witness tells us now is hearsay. So we would not understand it any

17 other way, in view of the earlier answers of the witness. And I think

18 it -- this objection or this comment really does not add to the -- does

19 not assist the Chamber in better understanding the testimony.

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I appreciate the Chamber's comment, but the

21 question, as framed, certainly doesn't do it either, and it confuses the

22 issue. And if the question is made to the witness --

23 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is not confused by the way the question

24 was put.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.

Page 3496


2 Q. Witness 29, when you said earlier that Mr. Haradinaj said: "If

3 you don't go back immediately, we will do this and that to you," can you

4 be more specific. What do you mean by the words "this and that"?

5 A. Please, I was trying to be brief. That's why I said that. During

6 the meeting between Mr. Haradinaj and Mr. Tahir Zemaj and other officers,

7 what was said was that, You don't need to come to Kosova. You have go

8 back where you came from. Kosova doesn't need you. Kosova doesn't need

9 the armed forces of the Republic of Kosovo or FARK. If you don't go back,

10 we will fight you. We will not fight the enemy. We will leave the enemy,

11 and we will fight you.

12 So what I understood by that is that they would fight us; and

13 then, if they had time, they would fight the enemy.

14 Q. Witness 29, in your 2002 statement to the Office of the

15 Prosecution --

16 MR. KEARNEY: Counsel, this is at page 5, paragraph 5.

17 Q. -- you say that, and I'm quoting now from your statement to OTP:

18 "Mr. Haradinaj said: 'If you don't go, we'll kill you all.'"

19 Is that an accurate quote of your memory of what Mr. Haradinaj

20 said?

21 A. I'm sorry --

22 JUDGE ORIE: One second.

23 Mr. Kearney, I take it that you intended to ask the witness

24 whether that was an accurate quote of his memory of what he was told about

25 what Mr. Haradinaj said?

Page 3497

1 MR. KEARNEY: That's true and I stand corrected, and I'll rephrase

2 that question.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

4 MR. EMMERSON: Just before Mr. Kearney does and leaving that issue

5 of clarification to the side for the moment. As a general proposition,

6 I'm not sure about the propriety of the practice of putting to a witness

7 being called by the Prosecution passages from his statement that are not

8 in a 92 ter form, unless we are in either a memory-refreshing situation or

9 a hostile-witness situation.

10 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, this is a situation where this witness

11 did make this statement now almost five years ago. It's a quote from his

12 statement. I'm simply presenting it to him and seeing if it refreshes his

13 memory as to what was said.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether you have already sufficiently explored

15 whether, without this refreshment of the memory, this evidence could be

16 elicited is certainly subject to doubt. So therefore, would you please be

17 cautious in this respect.

18 MR. KEARNEY: I will.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

20 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.

21 Q. Witness 29, those words that I just stated to you from your 2002

22 statement, do they refresh your memory as to what you were told

23 Mr. Haradinaj said during this meeting in Jasic in 1998?


25 I think, Mr. Guy-Smith --

Page 3498

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, please --

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: There is no indication that the witness's memory

3 needs to be refreshed. The witness has testified precisely as to what he

4 recalls the statement; and if it is not being used for that purpose, then

5 it is being used for purposes of impeachment, which raises the question

6 that Mr. Emmerson raised a moment ago.


8 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, if I can respond very briefly. We

9 started this inquiry because the witness said "this and that."


11 MR. KEARNEY: Obviously, the words "this and that" were not spoken

12 by Mr. Haradinaj back in 1998. I'm just simply trying to specify.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I think what the Defence emphasises is that

14 there's no problem with further specification, but that should be done,

15 first of all, by asking the witness -- let me just check exactly what the

16 course of the answers were. One second, please.

17 Yes, Mr. Kearney. You asked specification of the "this and that."

18 The witness answered that question, but it appears that you think he could

19 say more about it; and without first exploring whether the witness could

20 add something to the specification he already gave, you immediately led

21 him to his 2002 statement where at that moment perhaps the appropriate

22 course of questioning would have been to further explore whether the

23 witness would like to add anything to what the specification he gave, the

24 specification being that they would fight the FARK rather than the enemy

25 at that moment.

Page 3499

1 But perhaps -- yes.

2 Witness, when you said that the gist of the conversation was

3 related to you as being that they, that is, Mr. Haradinaj's people, would

4 fight you first and only then the enemy, did they in any way specify on

5 how they would fight you? What would they do in fighting you? Was that

6 related to you?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us then in what terms, as you

9 understood, this was explained.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In relation to this, I was told that

11 if we did not go back to Albania, Mr. Haradinaj, together with his

12 officers and soldiers under his command, would fight us first and then the

13 Serb forces. With this I mean they would kill us all first and then fight

14 the enemy.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I think that this is more or less what

16 the Defence had in mind as the proper course of further exploring the

17 matter without already refreshing the memory of the witness. Of course, I

18 do not know to what extent the earlier attempt to refresh the memory has

19 influenced the answers of the witness, but this is at least perhaps the

20 proper way of examining the witness.

21 Please proceed.

22 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on.

23 Q. Witness 29, you said that you expected a different meeting earlier

24 between Mr. Haradinaj and your leadership. What did you mean by that?

25 A. Not only me, but everybody, the officers and the soldiers were

Page 3500

1 looking forward to meeting the other soldiers and talking to them. It was

2 unbelievable the way that they welcomed us. We thought that they would

3 cooperate with us and do the same as the village of Jasic did. That was

4 completely the opposite of what we expected.

5 Q. As a result of this visit by Mr. Haradinaj, did the FARK forces

6 leave the village of Jasic?

7 A. The FARK forces, of course, had to leave because we had come to

8 Kosovo to do something else, not to fight with Mr. Haradinaj. That's why

9 we tried to avoid a conflict or a bloodshed between brothers.

10 Q. Where did you go?

11 A. In the beginning, I think the army remained there for a week,

12 maybe seven or eight days, and then we had to arrange for another place, a

13 safer place to go. Mr. Tahir Zemaj and Commander Ceku discussed this

14 amongst each other and decided that we had to go to another village in

15 order to avoid conflict with Mr. Haradinaj. So myself, Mr. Ceku, and a

16 couple of other soldiers, we went looking for a safer village - if I could

17 call it that - in order to avoid the bloodshed with Mr. Haradinaj. And we

18 were able to find four houses in the village of Izniq in Decani

19 municipality.

20 We then told Mr. Zemaj by telephone, satellite telephone, that we

21 had found a place. We were helped immensely by the people in the Izniq

22 village, the representatives of the village. So after we spoke with

23 Mr. Zemaj, we -- it was decided that all the soldiers would come in the

24 direction of Pacaj village. And myself and Sali Ceku and the two soldiers

25 who were with us, we would wait for them Pacaj; and then together we would

Page 3501

1 go to the village of Isniq.

2 This was the movement that was expected to happen because there

3 was no other way. We wanted to avoid the worst.

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can I interrupt and ask. The village of Isniq,

5 how do you spell that village, with I-s or I-r?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. It's I-s-n-i-q,

7 where we were stationed.

8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.

9 MR. KEARNEY: And Your Honour makes a good point. My next

10 question was going to be:

11 Q. Is this a different village than Irzniq?

12 A. No. These are two different villages. There is a village called

13 Irzniq and the other is Isniq. These are two villages in the same

14 municipality, and I said we settled in the village of Isniq.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness also tell us where we find

16 Pacaj.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Pacaj, if I

18 understood your question correctly, this village is close to the main road

19 Peje-Gjakove-Decane, but it is in the territory of the municipality of

20 Gjakove. I mean the main road Decane-Gjakove divides Heric from Pacaj.

21 That is the road I mean. But, however, this is a village in the

22 municipality of Gjakove.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.

24 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.

25 Q. Witness 29, after you moved to Isniq, were you at some point given

Page 3502

1 an assignment involving this village you've been talking about of Pacaj?

2 A. Please, if you could repeat the question, because it's not clear

3 to me. As I said, from Pacaj, we went to Isniq. If you mean after we

4 went to Isniq, yes, I can give you an answer.

5 Q. Yes. I'm referring specifically to now the 4th of July of 1998,

6 if that helps you. On that date, did you leave the village of Isniq and

7 go somewhere or attempt to go somewhere?

8 A. Yes. With regard to the 4th of July, if I'm not mistaken, so the

9 4th of July, Mr. Tahir Zemaj -- I'm sorry. I think I overlooked something

10 that I have to say. While we went to Isniq, two officers remained there,

11 Agim Ramadani and Rrustem Berisha, with three soldiers. And during our

12 stay in Isniq, we were in contact with Mr. Berisha and Mr. Ramadani - I

13 mean the officers were - and we were told that some weaponry had come from

14 Albania to Jasic. Whether it had arrived or was expected to arrived, I

15 was not sure. So somebody had to go to Pacaj to await that consignment of

16 weaponry.

17 It was said that from Papaj, which is in Albania, the consignment

18 had arrived in Jasic, but then I would await for that consignment in

19 Pacaj.

20 Q. Let me stop you there to catch up with you for a moment. You said

21 several names. These weapons that we're talking about, they came into

22 Kosovo from a village in Albania called Papaj, is that right, P-a-p-a-j?

23 A. Yes, Papaj.

24 Q. And they were headed into Kosovo into the village of Pacaj,

25 P-a-c-a-j. Is that correct as well?

Page 3503

1 A. Yes, via Jasic. The village of Papaj is in Albania; from Papaj,

2 the consignment would go to Jasic, then the people who brought the

3 consignment had to rest for a while. From Jasic, the consignment would be

4 transported to Pacaj, and we would await for the consignment there. It

5 was considered that Pacaj was a safer village because there were no Serb

6 forces in the area. However, we also wanted to avoid a conflict with KLA

7 and Mr. Haradinaj.

8 Q. And just --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness be asked

10 to speak more slowly, please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, could you please slow down in your

12 answers because the interpreters have difficulties in following your speed

13 of speech.

14 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.

15 I must admit that Pacaj, I have not found it yet on any map,

16 although I tried hard.

17 MR. KEARNEY: And I was just going to ask a question which may

18 help the Trial Chambers in that regard.

19 Q. This village of Pacaj is south-west of the village of Jasic. Is

20 that correct?

21 A. The village of Pacaj, if you have a map, maybe I could help you

22 more; however, the main road Decane-Gjakove divides the village of Pacaj

23 with the village of Heric. It goes between these villages. If you go

24 from Decani to Gjakove, Heric is on the left side and Pacaj on the right

25 side of the road.

Page 3504

1 JUDGE ORIE: I found it. Thank you.

2 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. So Witness 29, on the 4th of July, 1998, you were given the task

4 to travel from Isniq to Papaj [sic] to pick up weapons. Is that correct?

5 A. Please, because these names are similar to each other and may be

6 confused, my task was to go to Pacaj and not Papaj. The same way we

7 confused Irzniq and Isniq.

8 Q. And I stand corrected. My apologies to both the witness and the

9 Trial Chambers.

10 In any event, please tell us how you made that journey and who you

11 made it with, please.

12 A. On the 4th of July, 1998, Commander Zemaj and Commander Ceku

13 invited me to go to their room, where they were staying, and told me to go

14 to the village of Pacaj to await this consignment of weapons that was

15 coming from Albania. Mr. Ceku wanted to come with me as well, but I did

16 not think it was appropriate for him to come because every movement of our

17 senior officers, Mr. Zemaj, Mr. Ceku, was probably not safe for them.

18 That's why I didn't want them to come with me. And Mr. Ceku agreed not to

19 come and told me to choose three soldiers to go with me on this

20 assignment.

21 I became a kind of person responsible for that task, that

22 assignment. I was not a commander, just the person responsible. I was

23 given three soldiers. I decided on the soldiers myself. Can I give the

24 name, or do you think it's not proper to give the name now?

25 Q. Please do.

Page 3505

1 A. The soldier was called Idriz Ukehaxhaj from Carrabreg in the

2 municipality of Decane, and he also owned a car, a small car. I don't

3 know the make, I can't remember now, but it was his own property, his

4 private car. I asked this Ukehaxhaj to come and speak with me. I thought

5 that it would be easier for us to move through those villages by his car,

6 and Ukehaxhaj agreed.

7 I also needed two other soldiers, and I told Ukehaxhaj, "Could you

8 go and get two other soldiers?" He went, got two soldiers. One was

9 called Petrit Lokaj. He was from the village of Poberxhe in the Decane

10 municipality. I think now he lives in the town of Decane. The other,

11 Azem Gashi, is from Peje municipality. And we all agreed to travel

12 together to go on this assignment.

13 Towards the evening hours, Idriz went and got his car. In the

14 meantime, one of the owners of one of the houses where we were staying

15 said that he wanted to come with us because he wanted to visit his

16 daughter in the village of Junik and wanted to see how she was. Of

17 course, it was wartime and everybody wanted to see how their people were.

18 We had room in the car so we told him that he could come. We also asked

19 his officers whether he could and they said yes. So we started, we set

20 off.

21 Q. Let me stop you there. You indicated that it was not safe for

22 Commander Ceku -- or in your opinion, it was not safe for Commander Ceku

23 to travel. Why was that? Why was it not safe for him to travel, in your

24 opinion?

25 A. Well, the movement involved a risk from the village where we were

Page 3506

1 to the other village. The situation was not stable. We wanted to avoid

2 the conflict with Mr. Haradinaj. We thought that we would have a friendly

3 talk with Mr. Haradinaj, and I thought that I myself could have such a

4 friendly talk with Mr. Haradinaj, rather than the officer, because we had

5 been friends. We had been neighbours, brothers I would say.

6 Q. So your fear for the safety of Mr. Ceku came from Mr. Haradinaj.

7 Is that a fair statement?

8 A. Maybe I have to give briefer answers. The whole problem was we

9 didn't want something to happen to us from Mr. Haradinaj. We didn't want

10 to risk anybody's life from Mr. Haradinaj and the soldiers of

11 Mr. Haradinaj. And because I thought I knew Mr. Haradinaj very well, I

12 had met him during my visits to Kosovo, I thought I could talk with him.

13 And I thought it would be better if I was responsible for that journey.

14 Q. I want to ask you just a follow-up question to what you just said.

15 We talked at length about your ten trips into Kosovo in 1998 before the

16 formal entry of the FARK forces. During some of those visits, did you

17 actually meet with Mr. Haradinaj?

18 A. Yes. There was one case when I met Mr. Haradinaj. We talked with

19 each other. It was a very friendly, brotherly conversation. We discussed

20 several things about the situation. He told me, Things are going like

21 this. Maybe in the future we will be even better prepared.

22 It was a very good meeting.

23 Q. Do you know what date that meeting was? What time it was?

24 A. I can't be very sure. That's why I don't want to give you dates,

25 accurate dates. Although, I can't remember it. Maybe Mr. Haradinaj can

Page 3507

1 help us with that date.

2 Q. Can you tell us if it was before March 24th or after March 24th?

3 A. It was after the 24th of March, but I can't give you an exact

4 date. I don't want to give you a date and then find out that it wasn't

5 the right date.

6 Q. Do you remember where the meeting itself was?

7 A. If I'm not mistaken, we met in the birthplace of Mr. Haradinaj.

8 Q. And can you tell us where that is, please.

9 A. His native village is Gllogjan village in the municipality of

10 Decane.

11 Q. And you said you discussed things during this meeting with

12 Mr. Haradinaj. Do you remember what specifically it was that you

13 discussed?

14 A. I'm not sure, but we discussed about the things that we were

15 preparing over there, that things were going well. We were waiting for

16 the moment when we would enter Kosova, and Mr. Haradinaj agreed. And when

17 we parted with each other, we were two people who were very close to each

18 other parting with each other.

19 Q. When you said you were -- you discussed the moment when you were

20 waiting to enter Kosova, are you referring to when the FARK forces would

21 enter Kosovo?

22 A. Yes, yes. I told him that preparations are underway and that soon

23 we would -- that the armed forces of the Republic of Kosova, albeit FARK,

24 would enter Kosova. We will join our forces. We will fight the enemy

25 together, and he welcomed these conversations, seemed to be very content

Page 3508

1 with it, at least that's my impression of it.

2 Q. During this conversation you had with him, did he state what his

3 rank was? What his position was at that time? Did you know what it was?

4 Can you tell us anything about that, please?

5 A. No, no. This -- another time there were no ranks but he was a

6 commander because with us in Kosova -- to us, ranks are the ranks given to

7 you when you are a professional officer, when you are in an academy, or

8 so. Maybe he has. I apologise to him if he has, but to me he was a

9 commander. But I don't know if he had ranks; of this, I'm not certain.

10 However, I knew him as a co-villager and as a commander.

11 Q. I want to move back now, if we may, to the 4th of July of 1998,

12 and I want to ask you what time of day was it that you set out with these

13 other three FARK soldiers you described and the civilian in

14 Mr. Ukehaxhaj's car?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Kearney, I see that we're now moving back

16 to the 4th of July. I'm looking at the clock. Perhaps that might be a

17 moment for a break, and then after the break we could continue with the

18 4th of July.

19 We'll have a break until 11.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, you may proceed.

23 The Chamber would like to give as a guidance to the parties, that,

24 of course, it's highly appreciated if the parties draw the attention to

25 the Chamber of risks of confusion; at the same time, sometimes if there is

Page 3509

1 a small risk of confusion, first of all, it does not always materialise.

2 Second, if there's confusion, of course, the Chamber, unlike a

3 member of a jury, could easily try to clarify what might confuse them.

4 So, therefore, this is not to tell the parties, Don't draw our attention

5 to confusion, but don't do it too quickly, and perhaps now and then rely

6 on the abilities of this Chamber to have confusion moved aside.

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have -- I certainly have not been moving quickly

8 and the confusion, less of a concern is the confusion of the Chamber and

9 more is the concern of the confusion of the record.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The record always reflects what is said, so

11 there could be no confusion. But this is just that I hope the parties got

12 the message.

13 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.

14 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.

15 Q. Witness 29, when we left off you, were just leaving on your --

16 from Isniq on your trip to Pacaj to get the weapons. I want to ask you:

17 During that journey after you left Isniq, did you come to a stop in any

18 village along your way?

19 A. Yes. After we left Isniq village, we passed through several

20 villages and stopped at the village. I can tell you the name of the

21 village, if you want.

22 Q. Please do.

23 A. We stopped at Irzniq village.

24 Q. Why did you stop there?

25 A. We stopped there for two reasons: One was that I had to get a

Page 3510

1 military uniform, and the other was that the person who was with us, not

2 the soldier, wanted to buy something for his grandson whom he wanted to

3 visit at his daughter's house.

4 Q. When you arrived at Irzniq, was there a KLA presence in the town?

5 A. Yes. But even along the way, we saw members of the KLA. But also

6 in Irzniq village when we stopped the car, I left in the direction of the

7 place where I was supposed to get the uniform; whereas, that person with

8 the three soldiers remained in the store to have something to drink and to

9 buy what he wanted to buy.

10 I went to the village command in the meantime, and the

11 commander -- there was a commander of the village, whose name was Maxhun

12 Cekaj. He was responsible for the village. He was also a reserve major

13 in the Yugoslav Army. I got a paper, a piece of paper, from him to make

14 things easier for me on the way, and then I left to get the uniform.

15 In the meantime, we met Mr. Haradinaj in the centre of Irzniq

16 village. Mr. Haradinaj just arrived in a four-wheel-drive, a big car. He

17 was accompanied by Togeri, who was most known at that time, and he stopped

18 the car nearby our car. He stopped. It was quite normal act. He lowered

19 his window. I did the same. We talked.

20 I can't relate here exactly what we said verbatim, but the most

21 important thing was that he said, "It's good to see you. When you are in

22 Kosova, we will see each other. We will talk."

23 That's it. To me, I took it as a normal occurrence, as in fact I

24 expected him to behave.

25 Q. Can I stop you there for a moment, please. You said the village

Page 3511

1 commander was a gentleman you knew to be a reserve major in the Yugoslav

2 Army. Is that correct?

3 A. Yes, yes.

4 Q. Did he have any, to your knowledge, professional background or

5 training in the military or in defence studies?

6 A. I don't know. I can't be precise, 100 per cent precise, but I

7 know he was a major, not an active officer in the Yugoslav Army. There

8 was a part of the Yugoslav Army described as reservists or territorial

9 defence forces, which were organised on the level of municipality in

10 Kosova but I think also in Yugoslavia.

11 Q. And yet on this day, the 4th of July, 1998, he was a village

12 commander for the KLA. Is that correct?

13 A. Yes. I'm talking about Maxhun Cekaj, the commander of the

14 village.

15 Q. You said you received from him some kind of document. Is that

16 correct? Can you please tell us what that was?

17 A. At that time, we described it as a document, but in fact it was a

18 piece of paper, handwritten. It didn't have any kind of letterhead or

19 something like this. It was a piece of paper; whereby, I was, in this

20 case, authorised, name and last name given, to travel from Irzniq village

21 to Pacaj village to get a shipment of arms. And along with him there are

22 also three other soldiers, things like this.

23 It was a paper that I might show in places where we deemed it

24 appropriate to make our passage easier by means of such a document. It

25 was not an order, per se, but it was a handwritten paper.

Page 3512

1 Q. Now, you said sometime after that Mr. Haradinaj and a gentleman

2 named Togeri arrived in a vehicle. This person that you called Togeri, do

3 you know his real name?

4 A. They didn't come to our car; but when I was going to the place to

5 get the uniform, Mr. Haradinaj and Togeri stopped their car - so maybe

6 this is the right description - then Mr. Haradinaj stopped the car,

7 lowered the window. He was driving the car, and he was accompanied by

8 Togeri, who was the person we knew most. Idriz Balaj is his name. I

9 don't know where he came from, but not from Decane municipality.

10 JUDGE ORIE: The question put to you was simply whether you would

11 know the real name of the person you called Togeri. Could you please

12 focus your answers exactly on the question. If Mr. Kearney would like to

13 know more, he'll certainly ask you.

14 Please proceed.


16 Q. Had you seen this person, Togeri, or Idriz Balaj, before this

17 date, on July 4th of 1998?

18 A. I had seen him two or three times, but he was known all over by

19 the name of Togeri, by the pseudonym. I had met him, yes, two or three

20 times before. I had not talked with him. I just had seen him in the

21 street moving about.

22 Q. And when you say that in the vehicle with him was Mr. Haradinaj,

23 you're talking about Ramush Haradinaj. Is that correct?

24 A. I mean Mr. Ramush Haradinaj, yes. He was on the driver's seat.

25 He was driving, but he was accompanied by Togeri. At the moment that he

Page 3513

1 spoke -- that he stopped the car - if I can go on - he didn't speak.

2 Q. Please go on. Do you want to finish your answer.

3 A. If I can, yes. Then I greeted him, he greeted me. He said, It's

4 good that you are here. And he said what I mentioned earlier. We parted

5 our ways. He went his way. I went to the place I was supposed to gather

6 the uniform; then after a couple of minutes - I can't be precise - I got

7 the information that at the place where I had left the soldiers,

8 Mr. Haradinaj had gone there, not Ramush Haradinaj, but Daut Haradinaj.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I hate to interject, but really, at this point,

10 there's no question pending. The witness has moved on to a narrative

11 answer with regard to what he was doing that way. If that's a way the

12 Chamber chooses to proceed, so be it; but I think it causes a series of

13 difficulties in terms of knowing what's going on.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I already earlier tried to -- I tried to

15 keep the witness closer to the question.

16 So, Witness, would you please always carefully listen to the

17 question. It's not -- it might be important what you say, but it might

18 not be exactly what Mr. Kearney would like to hear from you as further

19 detail.

20 So please focus on the question and then, Mr. Kearney, you know

21 how to deal.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

23 MR. KEARNEY: I do, Your Honour. I'm just mindful of the

24 time-limit, and that's why I was allowing the witness to proceed. But

25 I'll be mindful of the Trial Chamber's directions.

Page 3514

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we do not know exactly what your

2 next questions are. So you are the one to be best able to see if the

3 witness gives further details, if he goes in the direction you would go

4 anyhow or whether it's something different.

5 Please proceed.


7 Q. You indicated at some point after you went to get your uniform,

8 you received some information that there was some trouble involving Daut

9 Haradinaj, is that correct; and if that's true, please tell us what that

10 trouble was, what you heard?

11 A. Yes, this is how it was.

12 Q. And what was it that you heard?

13 A. During the time, I was getting the uniform, one of the brothers

14 came and told me that two persons have come to that store. One is called

15 Daut Haradinaj, the other Togeri, Idriz Balaj, and they were trying to get

16 those persons I left at the store with them.

17 Q. The FARK soldiers, are those the persons you left at the store

18 you're referring to?

19 A. Yes, precisely those; the three soldiers, and the fourth person.

20 Q. After you received this information, did you go back to the store

21 yourself?

22 A. I went immediately without losing any time. After two, three

23 minutes, four minutes, as fast as I could, I went there.

24 Q. Please tell us what happened when you got back to the store.

25 A. At the moment I arrived at the store, I saw Daut Haradinaj with

Page 3515

1 Togeri, Idriz Balaj, in two cars. Both were large vehicles, 4-by-4 as we

2 called them then, and they were threatening the soldiers to get them with

3 them in their cars.

4 Q. When you say "to get them with them," what do you mean? What were

5 they -- what was Mr. Balaj or Mr. Haradinaj saying to them that you're

6 referring to?

7 A. When I arrived there, both were in uniform; Mr. Haradinaj - I mean

8 Daut Haradinaj - and Balaj, Togeri. They were talking with the soldiers

9 and threatening them to get them into their car. I mean they wanted them

10 to -- to get into the car and to drive them to the place they had in mind.

11 Q. And did they say where it was they wanted to drive the FARK

12 soldiers?

13 A. When I went there and Daut saw me, he said, "You and them, both,

14 and all of them are going to come with us in our car, and we will take you

15 to the staff in Gllogjan village, to Ramush Haradinaj."

16 Q. What tone was this said in? Was this said in a friendly tone, a

17 hostile tone? Describe that for us, please.

18 A. Now, with the exception of the tone used by Mr. Ramush Haradinaj,

19 which was a very friendly tone; in this case, their tone was threatening,

20 very harsh tone. It was a very bad moment I would say.

21 Q. You said that Daut Haradinaj and Idriz Balaj were uniformed. Did

22 they have weapons as well?

23 A. Yes, they did. They had gotten out of their cars and had a pistol

24 on their belt and a knife on their chest, hanging on their chests. I

25 don't know how exactly that was placed in a belt, or I don't know what,

Page 3516

1 holster.

2 Q. Did either one of them use their weapons at that time?

3 A. At one moment, because they kept insisting for us to come along

4 with them into their cars and to take us to Gllogjan village, to Ramush

5 Haradinaj. And I refused with -- I didn't want to go with them because I

6 had already seen Mr. Haradinaj. I said, "Okay. I will come and meet

7 Mr. Haradinaj, but I will come with my own car."

8 Mr. Haradinaj took out his pistol and shot in the air, and it was

9 a threatening gesture, as if to force us to go into their cars, but I

10 did -- I refused. I said, "Okay, I'll come, but with my own car."

11 Q. Why did you not want to go in their car?

12 A. It was a moment that I didn't feel safe for myself and for the

13 others. So in these circumstances, I felt better to drive in my own car,

14 even though Haradinaj and Balaj insisted for us to come with them. So I

15 kept insisting on my own. They kept asking us to go with them. I mean

16 that I was afraid to go in their car. I felt more secure to travel in my

17 car myself and my friends -- for my friends.

18 Q. Did you show them the travel document you had received from the

19 KLA village commander?

20 A. Yes. I did show them the document I had obtained from the village

21 commander, Mr. Maxhun Cekaj, but Daut tore it up and invited that person

22 to come to the place where we were. He came there. Daut started to shout

23 to him, telling him, "Why have you provided them with this piece of paper

24 to these FARK soldiers. They have no place here. They should leave

25 Kosova. We will fight against them," and things like this. So he

Page 3517

1 threatened Maxhun Cekaj.

2 Q. Was Mr. Balaj saying anything during this period of time?

3 A. It was a very bad moment. Mr. Balaj brought out his pistol and

4 fired several times, five or six times maybe, and he did that to strike

5 fear among us, to force us to follow him, to do what he had planned to do

6 with us.

7 Q. Where did he fire these five or six shots?

8 A. Very close to us, in my presence, in the presence of Maxhun Cekaj,

9 and all the others. He was -- we were two or three metres apart from one

10 other in the middle of the village, to cut it short, but he didn't fire in

11 our direction, but in the air because he wanted to scare us and to order

12 us to get into their vehicles.

13 Q. At some point, did you go to Gllogjan that day?

14 A. Yes. Yes, certainly, after all we went. Mr. Daut Haradinaj left

15 first; Idriz Balaj after him; we were in the middle and we left to -- for

16 Gllogjan.

17 Q. So you went in three vehicles, Witness 29. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's it.

19 Q. How long did it take you to get from Irzniq to Gllogjan?

20 A. I'm not very certain to give you minutes, but it's very close from

21 the place we were. I would say that the distance between the last

22 village -- the last house of one village and the first of the other

23 village might be two kilometres. It takes you five or ten minutes

24 driving. It depends on how fast you drive.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, this last question and the details we

Page 3518

1 received there, where the Chamber knows that it's two kilometres, does not

2 assist in any way to better understand the testimony. Of course, we have

3 seen the statement so, of course, if something would have happened on the

4 way that might be useful to ask about it. But isn't that totally

5 superfluous?

6 MR. KEARNEY: That's a point well taken.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.


9 Q. Where did you go when you got to Gllogjan, please?

10 A. When we arrived in Gllogjan, we were told to go to the staff of

11 Mr. Ramush Haradinaj. Once we arrived in front of the staff, Daut

12 Haradinaj parked his car in front of our car. We parked behind him. And

13 we were about 50 metres away from the entrance to the staff. Idriz Balaj

14 parked behind us. I mean that all the time we were in between two cars.

15 I got out of the car. I left my colleagues in the car. I left my weapon

16 there, Kalashnikov, and walked in the direction of the staff of Mr. Ramush

17 Haradinaj to meet him.

18 In the meantime, I don't know what Daut was doing, but as I said

19 he parked his car in front of us and we were obliged to stop. There was

20 nothing else we could do. There was a large number of soldiers

21 surrounding us.

22 Q. How many soldiers were there surrounding you?

23 A. I can't give you an accurate number, but there was a large number.

24 It was impossible for me to count them, and it didn't enter my mind to

25 count them, actually. If I can go on --

Page 3519

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the witness could tell us an approximate

2 number.

3 I do understand you did not count them. Would you say there were

4 ten? 50? 200?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the village, there was a number

6 of soldiers; but in the staff of Mr. Ramush Haradinaj, I saw that he was

7 talking to a number of about 40, 50 soldiers lined up in two columns. And

8 from what I understood, he was addressing them as their commander. When

9 he saw me walking towards him, he told the soldiers, "Wait a little

10 because a friend of mine, my best friend, had come," and he came towards

11 me.


13 Q. These 40 to 50 soldiers that Ramush was addressing, were they

14 uniformed?

15 A. Yes, yes. Those who were there, they were uniformed. They were

16 lined, as I said, in two columns.

17 Q. At that time, did you have a conversation with Mr. Haradinaj, this

18 is Ramush Haradinaj?

19 A. Yes, we had a conversation. It was a very friendly, fraternal

20 conversation. I told him, "I came here because Daut Haradinaj and Togeri

21 came to Irzniq village to force us to come here to you." I showed to him

22 that I refused to travel in their car, and then I told him where I was

23 going and why I had gone there. And in the end Mr. Ramush Haradinaj said

24 to me that, "You and your soldiers," the soldiers who were with me, I

25 mean, "don't need to have any piece of paper. Nobody will prevent you.

Page 3520

1 You may be with three or 300 other soldiers. You are free to go wherever

2 you wish. Nobody can prevent you."

3 And I took it as a normal occurrence, of course, as things should

4 be. In fact, I expected this of him. We shook hands and I left. He

5 said, "You are free to go now."

6 Q. And did you begin to walk back to the car at that point?

7 A. At that point, the place where I had parked the car and the place

8 where I entered Mr. Haradinaj's staff, it was a distance of 20 metres. I

9 was walking on the direction of the car to continue our trip to Pacaj

10 village. In the meantime, Daut and Togeri came, and Idriz Balaj came, and

11 there was an exchange on the way. They went to Mr. Ramush Haradinaj and

12 talked with him. I don't know what they talked about.

13 And then Mr. Ramush Haradinaj changed his mind and told me, "Take

14 those" - by "those" I mean the soldiers who were with me - "and go back to

15 where you came from because there is a problem which might last -- before

16 it's resolved, a couple of days might pass day."

17 He didn't specify how many days they needed for that.

18 Q. When Ramush Haradinaj said those words to you: "Take those

19 soldiers and go back to where you came from," what tone of voice was that

20 said in?

21 A. Now things deteriorated. It was no longer the friendly tone we

22 used or he used before. It was now harsher.

23 Q. Tell us what happened then, please.

24 A. Then I walked in the direction of the car and told Idriz to get

25 into the car because we have to turn back to Irzniq village, because the

Page 3521

1 KLA under Ramush's command doesn't let us to go this way. We have to go

2 back. Idriz seemed perplexed because he didn't expect what happened. He

3 said, "Why? For what reason?" I said, "Come into the car because I have

4 to go back."

5 Can I continue?

6 Q. Yes. Tell us what happened then.

7 A. In the meantime, I was walking towards my car. Idriz wanted to

8 get into the car. Mr. Haradinaj -- both Haradinaj brothers and Balaj were

9 following behind me two, three metres away. And at the moment

10 Mr. Haradinaj said, "Get those and get lost." I said to Idriz, "Get into

11 the car." And then at that moment, Mr. Haradinaj came on my right side --

12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can we hear that once more.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, if I can continue.


15 Q. The Trial Chambers would like you to clarify your last answer

16 which was: "At that moment Mr. Haradinaj said, "Get those and" something.

17 We didn't understand what you said, Witness 29, could you repeat that last

18 answer.

19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Including the answer, please, who said it,

20 Mr. Haradinaj.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer your question, Your

22 Honour?


24 Q. Yes, Witness 29.

25 MR. KEARNEY: I wonder with the Trial Chamber's permission from

Page 3522

1 here on out since there are two Haradinajs involved, Ramush and Daut.

2 Q. Instead of saying "Mr. Haradinaj," can you please use the first

3 name.

4 A. Yes, I will. Can I continue now?

5 Q. Yes, please.

6 A. At that point, Mr. Ramush Haradinaj used this expression: "Get

7 lost." What can I say? "Go away. I don't want to lay eyes on you

8 anymore." And he was following behind me. And at the point he came on my

9 right side, and I saw him with his pistol in his right-hand. Idriz was

10 leaning on the side of -- on the front door of the car, and he was about

11 to enter the car.

12 At that moment, Ramush Haradinaj overtook me on my right side and

13 went to Idriz Ukehaxhaj. He had the pistol on his right hand, and on his

14 left hand was made like a fist. He had the pistol on the right and the

15 fisted left hand, and then he hit Idriz.

16 Q. May I stop you there for a moment.

17 MR. KEARNEY: Members of the Trial Chamber, the witness just made

18 a motion with his hands describing what he saw Ramush Haradinaj do to

19 Idriz Ukehaxhaj. And I would invite the members of the Trial Chamber,

20 does the Trial Chamber want me to describe that for the record? Does the

21 Trial Chamber want to do it themselves?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

23 MR. KEARNEY: The witness - and I invite Defence to correct me if

24 I'm wrong - the witness held both hands out in front of him with clenched

25 fists, and he moved his hands together in a partial clapping motion, I

Page 3523

1 would characterise it.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Shoulder high, approximately.

3 Please proceed.


5 Q. Did -- with that motion, Witness 29, did Ramush Haradinaj actually

6 hit Idriz Ukehaxhaj?

7 A. At that moment, Mr. Ramush Haradinaj hit him on both sides of his

8 face. On his right hand was the pistol. His left hand was clenched into

9 a fist, and he hit him on both sides of his face. And his face was

10 covered in blood, I mean Idriz Ukehaxhaj's face.

11 Q. Can you please describe for us the degree of force that you saw

12 Ramush Haradinaj use during the -- during that blow, please, if you can.

13 A. Please, I can't tell you the degree of force, but I can tell you

14 that it was a strong blow. You see, his face was covered in flood. So it

15 was quite a powerful hit, such a hit that covered his face in blood.

16 Q. And what had Idriz been doing at the time he was hit? Was he --

17 what was he doing when he was -- he received this blow?

18 A. Nothing. He was doing nothing. Please, what could he do? He

19 wasn't expecting that. I was very close to him, but I couldn't intervene

20 because everything happened in a very short time. Nobody was expecting

21 it. We never thought that such a thing would happen.

22 Q. After that first blow was struck by Ramush, did he continue to

23 administer more blows? Did the attack continue?

24 A. That was the first blow and, yes, it continued. At the same time,

25 Mr. Daut Haradinaj, Ramush's brother, and Balaj attacked the other

Page 3524

1 soldiers, Petrit and Azem, two soldiers, because Idriz was under Ramush at

2 the time.

3 Q. Please describe the attack for us, if you could.

4 A. It is a very difficult moment for me to describe a hundred per

5 cent. I'll try my best. At that time, the car was parked close to a

6 wall, and Idriz was attacked by Ramush on both sides of his face, while

7 Azem and Petrit were behind the car, close to the wall. At that moment,

8 Daut Haradinaj and Idriz Balaj attacked Petrit and Azem.

9 Everything happened in a couple of moments. They were attacked

10 physically, not in words, but they were beaten. They started hitting them

11 with pistols, punching them, and then there were other soldiers that

12 participated in the beating. It was a very ugly beating.

13 Q. What were the numbers of the KLA soldiers that were involved in

14 the beating? There was four of you, four FARK members. How many KLA were

15 there involved?

16 A. A number took part, but not all the soldiers that were in

17 Gllogjan. I could say maybe 20 or 30 took part in the beating. It was a

18 very powerful beating, but there were other soldiers who were there

19 present but seemed not to like what was happening, but they couldn't do

20 anything.

21 Q. Were you beaten yourself during this attack?

22 A. Yes, I was beaten as well.

23 Q. Please describe that for us.

24 A. I'll try. I was attacked from behind by Mr. Daut Haradinaj and

25 Mr. Balaj. The first time I received the blow, this was a blow on my head

Page 3525

1 with a gun, a pistol I think; and after that, other blows came, all sorts

2 of blows, punches with the butts of the guns, the Kalashnikovs. They used

3 them as sticks to beat us. And all kinds of other beatings on the body,

4 on the head. There was no part of our body that was not hit; both me and

5 the other three soldiers that were beaten at the same time.

6 Q. Were there any words spoken to you during this attack?

7 A. Yes. At the moment they started to beat us, they also were saying

8 things. Among the words that they said were, "We will kill you. We will

9 eliminate you, not only you but your commanders Sali Ceku and Tahir

10 Zemaj." They were offending us, calling us names, all kind of swear

11 words, our mothers and everything.

12 And one of them said, "Wait, we'll kill (redacted)." And at a certain

13 moment, Mr. Ramush Haradinaj said, "No, I'll kill him with my own hand,"

14 and he jumped on me from behind.

15 Q. This is Ramush who jumped on you from behind?

16 A. Yes. The first time it was Toger and Daut, his brother, Ramush's

17 brother; while the second time when these words were spoken, "Let's kill

18 (redacted)," Mr. Ramush Haradinaj said, "I'll kill him with my own hand,"

19 and he jumped on me from behind.

20 Q. After Ramush jumped on you from behind, what did he do to you, if

21 anything?

22 A. At that time, Ramush Haradinaj jumped on me from behind. There

23 was a moment when he had the pistol in his hand and wanted to kill me,

24 and I was in is certain position. I wasn't lying down, but I also wasn't

25 standing. I was trying to protect myself from him, from Mr. Haradinaj,

Page 3526

1 and suddenly I heard a gun-shot.

2 I didn't understand at the time that the bullet had hit me because

3 I was receiving other blows and my whole body was aching and was in pain.

4 So I didn't understand that I was hit, but there was a bullet.

5 Q. I want to stop you there for a moment, if I may. You said just a

6 moment ago, this is at line 12: "At that time, Ramush Haradinaj jumped on

7 me from behind. There was a moment when he had the pistol in his hand,

8 and he wanted to kill me."

9 Please describe that for us, you said: "There was a moment when

10 he had the pistol in his hand, and he wanted to kill me." What was he

11 doing with the pistol that makes you say that?

12 A. Please, Mr. Ramush Haradinaj. Everything was clear.

13 Mr. Haradinaj said himself that, "I will kill (redacted) with my own hand,"

14 and he came to me and I don't know what else to explain, how much more

15 clearly to explain, because he wanted to kill me. He jumped on me. Maybe

16 he had planned this. I don't know what else to say.

17 He jumped on me with a pistol against my shoulder or my neck, and

18 I was trying to protect myself as best I could, and then I heard the

19 gun-shot. I was hit on the right arm. The bullet entered the arm here

20 and then came out ten or 12 centimetres lower in the arm. I was trying,

21 as I said, to protect myself, not to allow him to do that; but still, a

22 bullet hit me and fortunately I did not die.

23 Q. I have to ask you this for the record. Who fired the bullet that

24 hit you in the shoulder?

25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.

Page 3527

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

2 MR. EMMERSON: Put in that form, given the witness's evidence thus

3 far and indeed what is in the contents of his witness statement, that is

4 not a proper question.

5 JUDGE ORIE: You would say from whose weapon?

6 MR. EMMERSON: No. The witness's evidence at the moment --


8 MR. EMMERSON: -- and indeed his witness statement does not permit

9 a answer to that question in terms. What Mr. Kearney can properly do is

10 elicit the factual circumstances.

11 MR. KEARNEY: Which is exactly what I'm trying to do.

12 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. Perhaps the witness might just remove

13 his earphones for a moment.


15 Could you take your earphones off for a second.

16 MR. KEARNEY: My intent --

17 MR. EMMERSON: Can I just explain the objection before Mr. Kearney

18 responds?


20 MR. EMMERSON: The witness statement makes it clear on its face

21 that the witness did not see which gun the bullet came from.


23 MR. EMMERSON: He draws certain inferences in his witness

24 statement, and in particular paragraph 7 on, I think, page 4, as to how

25 that might have occurred -- sorry, paragraph 7 on page 11, where he

Page 3528

1 describe there being a lot of weapons fired around him but drawing certain

2 inferences to the location of Mr. Haradinaj in respect of this incident.

3 And he expresses an opinion based on that.

4 But it is in my submission extremely important- and he's repeated

5 that many his evidence- than to rather to ask him a question who shot you,

6 when on the face of it --

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think the point is clear.

8 Mr. Kearney.

9 MR. KEARNEY: Yes, my intent was -- and, Your Honour, I am

10 operating under a very severe time-frame here.


12 MR. KEARNEY: And my intent was to ask him this question and ask

13 him why he says that. I'm very aware what was in the statement, and I'm

14 aware that Mr. Emmerson has a long time for cross-examination.

15 MR. EMMERSON: With respect, that is, in its present form, nothing

16 more than an opinion. What Mr. Kearney can properly do is --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we do not know yet.

18 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I'm in Your Honours' hands, of course. I

19 don't want to take time on an objection. But, with respect, the way the

20 evidence emerges both in writing and orally is that the witness saw,

21 heard, and felt certain things; and from those things, he drew

22 conclusions.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, you are aware of the problems

24 Mr. Emmerson. Could you please rephrase your question. Keep in mind the

25 concerns of Mr. Emmerson, and then move on.

Page 3529

1 MR. KEARNEY: Of course, Your Honour.

2 Q. Witness 29, how was Ramush holding the gun in relation to your

3 body when you felt yourself being shot?

4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness does not have

5 his earphones on.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.


9 Q. I'm sorry. That was my mistake.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for assisting us.

11 Please proceed.


13 Q. Witness 29, how was Ramush holding the gun in relation to your

14 body immediately before you felt yourself being shot in the shoulder?

15 A. At that moment I was not lying down, but I was not standing. Can

16 I demonstrate, please? I'll try.

17 MR. KEARNEY: With the Court's permission.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. And be aware that we'll have to

19 describe that for the record what you are showing us.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of my knees was almost on the

21 ground, and I was trying to defend myself, leaning -- most of my body was

22 leaning this way. I can't explain it properly. I was trying to protect

23 myself. He had his pistol here on my shoulder; and during the movement, I

24 heard the shot and the bullet came through the arm. The position -- it

25 was a very difficult position I was in. I couldn't do anything.

Page 3530

1 JUDGE ORIE: The witness moved in a way where he was kneeling down

2 with a twisted body, looking upwards with his body close to the ground.

3 Please proceed.

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And may I ask: The pistol was on your shoulder

5 you said. Would that mean it was at close range or touching the shoulder?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The pistol was against my neck at

7 the moment that he was saying, "I'll kill him with my own hand." And

8 because I was moving, he could not hit me on my neck and the bullet hit my

9 arm and not on the neck where he wanted to hit me.

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So you're describing the bullet hit you on your

11 right arm, close to the shoulder. Thank you.


13 Q. When you're saying "he," this is -- when you said: "He could not

14 hit me on my neck," you're referring to Ramush. Is that correct?

15 A. Yes, I'm referring to Ramush, exactly. He wanted to hit me on my

16 neck; but because of the movement that I was doing at the time, the bullet

17 did not hit me in my neck but on my right arm.

18 Q. Now, how long did this beating last, if you can tell us, please?

19 A. I cannot say how long. It started suddenly. It ended suddenly,

20 when they were satisfied. So both the starting moment and the ending

21 moment were sudden. At that time, I saw they were dragging the other

22 soldiers by their hair. Daut Haradinaj and Idriz Balaj were dragging them

23 by their hair and beating them at the same time. They were dragging them

24 towards the village Gllogjan --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, could I --

Page 3531

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- towards the staff.

2 JUDGE ORIE: -- ask one question.

3 Was the shot you heard when you were hit any different from what

4 you heard when others have used their weapons?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that the other shots were

6 stronger. At the time, when I heard this particular shot, I don't know

7 whether my ears were blocked or something, but I did not hear the same

8 kind of sound as the other sounds. I cannot explain it to you.

9 Everything was so sudden.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.


12 Q. You said that the attack stopped suddenly. Please tell us what

13 happened when it stopped. Was anything said to you at that time?

14 A. When the attack stopped, I saw Idriz, Petrit, and Azem being

15 dragged by their hair, by Daut and Balaj, and they were being beaten with

16 Kalashnikovs and with the butts of the pistols, also punching and so on.

17 They were dragging them towards the headquarters.

18 At that time, Ramush still had his pistol in his hand. He kept

19 that in his hand all the time, and he said to me, "You only got two

20 minutes to leave the village of Gllogjan. And walk straight, straight

21 ahead on the main road. You've got only two minutes to leave the

22 village," while the other soldiers were taken into the headquarters of the

23 Gllogjan village, Mr. Haradinaj's headquarters.

24 Q. And then did you then leave Gllogjan?

25 A. Then I left the -- the place where the event happened. We were

Page 3532

1 surrounded by soldiers at the time. I was allowed to leave. I was

2 walking; and about 150 metres away from that place, I took a turn and

3 walked through the village, which was kind of a yard. I was hiding there,

4 close to a wall. It was the yard of a house. I did not see any people

5 living there, so I don't know whether that place was lived in or not.

6 Q. You were told to walk away on the main road. Why did you not do

7 that?

8 A. I did not do that because if I had followed the main road,

9 Mr. Haradinaj, Mr. Ramush Haradinaj, did not need to tell me, Go and

10 follow the main road. He could have just told me, Leave, go. So I

11 thought maybe he would kill me himself or order some of his subordinates

12 to kill me. That's why as soon as I left the place where all this

13 happened, I tried to avoid that risk. That's why I left and turned left.

14 Q. Did you eventually make it back to the FARK command?

15 A. Yes, after some time. I don't know how long I stayed there. I

16 walked about two kilometres to my village.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, from the question, you could learn that

18 Mr. Kearney might not be interested in all the details in how you got

19 back. So you got back to the FARK command.

20 Next question would be, Mr. Kearney?


22 Q. When you got back to the --

23 A. Yes, I did.

24 Q. -- FARK command, did you receive medical treatment for your

25 injuries?

Page 3533

1 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the Defence, on medical treatment and

2 follow-up, is there any problem with leading in that respect?

3 Then, Mr. Kearney, you could take the witness through the medical

4 department and leading him. Yes.

5 MR. EMMERSON: I have no objection to Mr. Kearney leading with

6 those issues, but I think there is no independent medical evidence

7 available.

8 JUDGE ORIE: No. Of course, instead of asking all these questions

9 to him, but rather to take him through his statement.

10 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.

11 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, the one exhibit I do want to use during

12 this testimony is a photograph. It is 65 ter 1311. I'd like it shown, if

13 I may, to the witness.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And at the same time, if you want to hear any

15 details by the medical treatment, you can do that by leading, since the

16 Defence, and I see the other Defence joining, have no objections to that.

17 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number for the next document

19 would be?

20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P264,

21 marked for identification.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23 Any objection against admission if it would be asked? Not.

24 Then if you tender it, Mr. Kearney, it will be admitted.

25 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.

Page 3534

1 Q. Witness 29, do you recognise the arm depicted in this photograph?

2 A. This is my arm, and this is the wound I received from

3 Mr. Haradinaj.

4 Q. The bullet that you were shot with, did it -- please tell us where

5 it entered your body and where it exited your body and show us -- tell us

6 what we are viewing here in this photograph?

7 A. Yes. The bullet entered the upper part of the arm and exited

8 here. The larger hole that you can see here is the exit point. The

9 smaller hole is the entry point.

10 MR. KEARNEY: Members of the Trial Chamber, we have two other

11 photographs here. Does the Trial Chambers want me to go into those, or

12 should I move on?

13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what's on the photographs; but if it is

14 similar, then I don't think there's any dispute about that there may be an

15 entrance and an exit bullet-hole on the arm of this witness because that's

16 what the photo shows.

17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I ask to be clear about these two holes. I

18 see one, this is unambiguous, which is, well, in the middle of the upper

19 rather. It seems to be rather to the front side.

20 MR. KEARNEY: And, Your Honour, that's a point well taken. We do

21 have another photograph I think shows the entry and the shoulder and the

22 exit as well.

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please, I would like to see that.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course, it's common knowledge that the entry

25 holes usually are the smaller ones and the exit holes are the bigger ones.

Page 3535

1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Just to show the exact location.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please show the next photograph.

3 MR. KEARNEY: Do we show --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I think we need your assistance.

5 MR. KEARNEY: This is 65 ter number 840 -- I'm sorry. It's 311 --

6 1311, page 3.

7 Q. Witness 29, do you recognise the photograph being shown now on the

8 screen?

9 A. Yes. It's the same photograph, but there is a ruler here showing

10 the distance between the two. At 0, you can see the entry point; and at

11 approximately 10 centimetres, the exit point.

12 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber's sufficiently informed about the wounds,

13 Mr. Kearney. Please proceed.


15 Q. And beyond just the bullet wound in your arm, describe very

16 briefly for us, please, your other injuries.

17 A. No. I do not have other wounds because I was not hit by other

18 bullets. Those were just the results of beatings, then I recovered from

19 those bruises.

20 Q. Did you ever see your three colleagues again after you left

21 Gllogjan?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, would be leading in as far as "the

23 others" is concerned, would that find any objection or Mr. Guy-Smith or

24 Mr. --

25 MR. EMMERSON: Within reason, Your Honour.

Page 3536



3 Q. Witness 29, I would like to ask you again, did you ever --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, shall we ask him: Did you see the

5 others that were with you in hospital later?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them about three hours later.

7 I can't be very precise.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us in general terms what their

9 condition was.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in an extremely bad state.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell us what made them to be in a

12 bad state, without too much details.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were badly beaten. Their heads

14 were bandaged. They didn't feel well. They felt very weak. They could

15 hardly stand. Azem Gashi had received a bullet injury also. It was a

16 very, very bad situation. They had great pains. Their heads was covered

17 in bandages.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.


20 Q. Did Mr. Gashi tell you how it was he came to be shot in the foot?

21 A. No, only that he had a bullet wound in his right leg, if I'm not

22 mistaken. But the entire situation was very bad. We didn't know what to

23 say to each other. Each of us started to recount what had happened to

24 him, how they had experienced it, and so on.

25 Q. Did your colleagues tell you what had happened to them after they

Page 3537

1 were dragged off by the hair towards the headquarters?

2 A. Yes, they did. They were beaten also inside, then they were

3 brought outside. They had been -- all their clothes had been taken off.

4 They were left only in their underwear, and all the time being beaten;

5 then they were ordered to run from Gllogjan village in the direction of

6 Irzniq until to Kodrali, in front of the car.

7 While they were firing their weapons in the ground, while they

8 were ordered to run, they were firing left and right to force them to run

9 under these circumstances, even though they were badly beaten and weak and

10 could hardly walk.

11 Q. Did they tell you who it was that were firing their weapons at

12 them at this period?

13 A. They told me that from Gllogjan to Kodrali, Daut Haradinaj and

14 Idriz Balaj were firing their weapons. This is what they told me. And

15 they also said that when they arrived in Irzniq village, there was a

16 command called the Black Eagles under Idriz Balaj's command, and they were

17 beaten there, too. They kept firing, and they kept running to Kodrali

18 almost all the time until almost naked.

19 Q. I now, Witness 29, want to move on to my last area of

20 conversation.

21 MR. KEARNEY: I want to, with the Trial Chamber's permission,

22 advance to the 10th of July, a few days later, to the village of Prapaqan.

23 Q. I want to ask you if in that village on that date you saw Ramush

24 Haradinaj again?

25 A. Yes. I saw him again on the 10th. Mr. Ramush Haradinaj,

Page 3538

1 accompanied by Rrustem Teta and Idriz Balaj and a group of about 30 men,

2 all soldiers - I'm not sure about the exact number - came to our command

3 in Prapaqan.

4 Q. These soldiers, what unit were they, if you know?

5 A. They were dressed in black uniforms. They were called special

6 unit or black uniforms. They had two names, I think: Black Eagles and

7 Special Unit.

8 Q. I want to ask you how specifically Ramush Haradinaj and Idriz

9 Balaj were dressed on that date?

10 A. Both were dressed in black uniforms, like the others, and they

11 lined the soldiers in front of our command post.

12 Q. And what happened when these soldiers came to your command post on

13 that date?

14 A. They came and lined the soldiers in front of -- lined up the

15 soldiers in front of the building, and then they invited Tahir Zemaj and

16 Sali Ceku, telling them to flee from Prapaqan in 30 minutes. They had

17 only -- they were given only 30 minutes' time.

18 Q. Now, did you hear this yourself, Witness 29?

19 A. Yes, I was very close.

20 Q. And did either Mr. Ceku or Mr. Zemaj respond when they were told

21 by Ramush that they had 30 minutes to leave?

22 A. Both asked him, "Why?" Because it was an ultimatum to leave the

23 place in 30 minutes. They were taken by surprise and asked why they had

24 to leave.

25 Q. And did Ramush respond when they asked him why?

Page 3539

1 A. He -- at that moment, Ramush raised his automatic rifle up and

2 fired in the air, and he said, "Five minutes have passed, so you have only

3 25 minutes left," after firing several times in the air.

4 Q. At some point after that, did those men or did one or both of

5 those men leave Kosovo?

6 A. After this incident, one evening, not many more days after the --

7 the few days, Sali Ceku came and I was sleeping, and he said to me, "Wake

8 up. We have to leave Kosova, all of us, because they will kill all of

9 us."

10 Q. And did you then leave Kosovo?

11 A. We got up, prepared ourselves, talked with Commander Zemaj, and he

12 said, "We must leave tonight." And he gave us another instruction: "If

13 the situation doesn't change, I too will leave, because we haven't come

14 here to kill each other."

15 Q. Do you remember what date it was that you finally left Kosovo,

16 sir?

17 A. To my recollection, I may make mistakes regarding the dates, but I

18 think it was around the 17th. I think it is -- actually, I think it was

19 17th.

20 Q. That was 17th of July, 1998; is that right?

21 A. Yes, 17th of July, 1998. It was 11.00, 12.00, around midnight

22 when that happened.

23 Q. Witness 29, thank you.

24 MR. KEARNEY: Members of the Trial Chamber, thank you. I have no

25 further questions.

Page 3540

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kearney.

2 Mr. Emmerson, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

3 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I am. And I want to if I may --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, you'll now be cross-examined by

5 Mr. Emmerson, who's counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.

6 MR. EMMERSON: With Your Honour's permission, I want to ask one or

7 two questions at the outset about the notes issue and move on to the

8 substance.


10 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

11 Q. Witness 29, you told us yesterday that during 1998 you made a

12 series of personal notes on separate sheets of paper about incidents that

13 happened to you. Is that right?

14 A. Yes. We had to keep notes of -- note of everything, but I

15 reported it to the commander, to show him also the notes.

16 Q. And you also told us yesterday that when you compiled the blue

17 notebook that you brought with you to court, you had those notes in your

18 possession and copied notes directly into the notebook. Is that correct?

19 A. I must be clear about one thing. Some of the notes that we kept

20 at that time, we submitted to the command. Sometimes the commanders took

21 them in the form we gave them; but when it had to do with some problems

22 affecting me or whatever I did, one copy I handed to the commanders -- I

23 showed it to the commander or kept the copy with me. So sometimes we gave

24 them the notes, and sometimes we kept the notes -- I kept the notes.

25 Q. But, Witness 29, when you compiled the blue notebook you brought

Page 3541

1 with you to court, you told us yesterday that you compiled that from notes

2 that were still in your possession at the time you copied those notes into

3 the notebook. Is that right?

4 A. I didn't have any reason to keep notes about anything other than

5 real events, so the dates correspond to the events, just being transferred

6 from one paper to another. This is what I brought.

7 Q. Please listen carefully to the question and please answer it. Is

8 it correct that the entries in the blue notebook are all entries that you

9 copied from individual pieces of paper that you recorded at the time of

10 the events they describe?

11 A. I couldn't keep track of all cases and everything. I just tried

12 to keep record of the dates, because sometimes I don't need to keep -- to

13 describe the events in writing because I remembered them very well.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, the question is whether what you wrote

15 down in that notebook is just a copy of the text you find on these pieces

16 of paper where you made your notes, whether you added anything, whether

17 it's the same, whether it's less. Is it the same? You are nodding.

18 Could you please respond, for the record.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing is added, sir. Nothing is

20 missing. Everything was copied as it actually was.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


24 Q. And that happened -- that process happened sometime in the last

25 six weeks, Witness 29. Is that correct?

Page 3542

1 A. This process started and developed gradually. Even yesterday, I

2 said it lasted for about one month and a half. It started after the date

3 I gave some notes to the gentleman and some copies of the notes, then

4 gradually I started to copy them from these pieces of paper to the

5 notebook. But I cannot tell you it's one week, two weeks, one month,

6 three months. But after the event I gave them, the representatives of the

7 office, some copies of these notes.

8 Q. Listen carefully. You told us yesterday you'd had the notebook

9 for only one and a half months, that is, six weeks. So it must follow,

10 mustn't it, that you copied the notes into the notebook sometime over the

11 last six weeks?

12 A. I said "approximately." I didn't say the exact date. I always

13 say "approximately." By this I mean it may be six, seven, eight weeks. I

14 cannot be precise. Were I certain, I would have told you.

15 Q. That's fine. Sometime in the last eight weeks let's say. So it

16 must follow, you had all those original pieces of paper in your possession

17 within the last eight weeks. Is that right?

18 A. Yes, the overwhelming majority of them, yes, of all the events.

19 But, of course, I copied everything because I couldn't copy something

20 without having the original.

21 Q. And how many of those notes have you since destroyed?

22 A. I cannot say how many, but one of them may be still with me. Some

23 I have discarded, and some are still with me.

24 Q. Did you destroy most of them?

25 A. Sometimes I may have destroyed something unintentionally, because

Page 3543

1 I didn't think at that moment that it might be of use to me. And I

2 thought that since I copied it in the notebook from the original, maybe I

3 don't need it anymore.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, the question was what percentage, more or

5 less. So not whether you did it intentionally, but was it four out of

6 five or was it just two out of five that you destroyed. I mean,

7 proportions. Did you destroy most of them or ...

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's say if I had ten, I have

9 destroyed three or four; however, most of them are still there today --

10 even today.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.

12 Please proceed.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking always approximately.

14 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

15 Q. And you've been requested to provide those notes to the

16 Prosecution I think on three separate occasions. Is that right?

17 A. I didn't understand the question. Can you repeat it, please.

18 Q. Yes. Let me put it to you specifically. On the 28th of August,

19 last year, the Prosecution contacted you and asked you whether you were

20 prepared to supply notes to the Defence and you said that you were not;

21 and then again in early September, the Prosecution asked you if you were

22 prepared to provide your original notes to them, and you refused to

23 provide them to the Prosecution and said you didn't want to meet to

24 discuss the matter with the Prosecution at that time; and then in December

25 of last year, you provided certain notes, which are different from the

Page 3544

1 notes in your notebook; and then in January, the Prosecution contacted you

2 again and asked you to look for any other notes and provide the original

3 notes to the Prosecution. That is the suggestion.


5 JUDGE ORIE: Before you answer that question.

6 Mr. Kearney.

7 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, this question is severely compound. I

8 don't know how -- I would ask that it be broken up. This witness is being

9 asked to comment on four separate subject matters in one question.


11 Mr. Emmerson, perhaps you briefly take the witness end-of-August

12 request to provide them to the Defence and seek an answer to that.

13 Is that correct, that you were asked to provide the notes to the

14 Defence in August last year?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the dates exactly

16 because time is passing by; however, I do remember that several times I

17 was asked to give these notes or personal notes, but I refused because I

18 didn't want to put myself in -- at risk from Mr. Haradinaj, because I was

19 certain that everything I would give them, his Defence would be notified,

20 and I wouldn't feel secure and safe.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it is true that once you refused to give the

22 notes to the Defence, then you were asked to give the notes to the

23 Prosecution. You refused that as well?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some representatives of the

25 Tribunal - I don't know if they were Prosecutors or Defence lawyers - but

Page 3545

1 several times I refused to give them the notes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


4 Q. And then, finally, in January of this year, you were specifically

5 asked to make sure that you looked for all notes and brought the originals

6 to the Tribunal, weren't you?

7 A. All these questions aim at one question. I think I gave a clear

8 answer. I told you: I promise that I will bring them.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, please respond to the question. What the

10 aim of the questions is not a question is whether you had would then --

11 let me just look at the question again: "You were specifically asked then

12 to make sure that you looked for all notes and brought the originals to

13 the Tribunal," whether that was asked in January.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not certain about the time. I

15 think it was -- maybe it was in January. I promise to give them, the

16 notes.


18 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


20 Q. Why did you then destroy the originals after promising to bring

21 them, of any of the documents?

22 MR. KEARNEY: I believe that misstates his testimony. He is

23 implying that the instruction happened after the January meeting.

24 MR. EMMERSON: I think it is clear that it did, and I'll lay the

25 foundation for it, because the witness says he copied them into his

Page 3546

1 notebook within the last eight weeks.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Objection overruled.

3 Please proceed.


5 Q. Can you explain why in those circumstances you chose to destroy

6 some of the notes?

7 A. I already said, some I have destroyed, but the overwhelming part

8 of them are still there. So it is still possible.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, the question simply is: You were invited

10 to look for all of the notes and to bring them. Later on you started

11 copying them, and you destroyed part of them. The question is: Why did

12 you destroy them where it must have been clear to you that the originals

13 were to be taken to The Hague?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already told you. I didn't intend

15 to destroy them. It was unintentional. I didn't know you needed these

16 scraps of paper, these pieces of paper. Of course, it would have been

17 easier for me to bring all those pieces of paper than to sit down and copy

18 them in a notebook. For me, what mattered were the dates, the accurate

19 dates of events. How can I say?

20 I didn't think that it was more important to keep a piece of paper

21 than a whole notebook; however, as I said, most of them do exist, even

22 now. But I never -- it never occurred to me that it was necessary to

23 bring them here.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.


Page 3547

1 Q. Witness 29, on the first page of the notebook that you've

2 produced, you refer to various incidents that took place on the 3rd and

3 the 5th of June of 1998, and you list the names of people. And when

4 referring to yourself, you refer to yourself in the third person; in other

5 words, you put your whole name down (redacted)

6 MR. EMMERSON: I'm so sorry. I do apologise. We'll redact the

7 transcript.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.


10 Q. You put your full name down in the notebook.

11 MR. EMMERSON: It's been redacted.

12 Q. Now, Witness 29, if these are notes that you were making for your

13 own recollection at the time, why would you write your own name in full in

14 that way?

15 A. Sometimes it's only my signature; sometimes it's my name, (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's turn into private session in order to avoid

18 further risks, and a further redaction will be made.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3548

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


8 Q. Witness 29, I want to now move now to the events you've described

9 on the 4th of July, just to explain the direction of the questions I'm

10 going to ask you. I'm going to ask you, first of all, some questions

11 about that particular incident that you've described, and then I'm going

12 to ask you some more questions about FARK generally and about the

13 description you've given of the problems that existed between the FARK and

14 the KLA under Ramush Haradinaj.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, we are close at where we usually have a

16 break, if you have a few short introductory questions, that's fine; if

17 not, not to interrupt the 4th of July events.

18 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Take the break now.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll have the break now and we'll resume

20 at a quarter to 1.00.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Emmerson, Mr. Kearney, if we would get the

24 consent of the interpreters and the technicians, as far as courtrooms are

25 concerned, we could continue until quarter past 2.00, but of course I'm in

Page 3549

1 their hands. The urgency, of course, is that tomorrow is a non-hearing

2 day. We'll then not sit for next week, and that's so if we could have the

3 consent of the technicians and interpreters, I got the consent of two

4 Trial Chambers, which would need a late start this afternoon. I see

5 nodding yes. It makes me very happy. Thank you very much.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you, Your Honour very much as well.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And then I take it that if -- Mr. Kearney, do you

9 expect -- well, of course I'm not going to ask you whether there will be

10 many questions in re-examination, but at least there should be some time

11 left for re-examination as well.


13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's start now without further delay.

14 Please proceed.


16 Q. Witness 29, I'm going to suggest to you that the account that you

17 have given to the Trial Chamber about the incident that occurred on the

18 4th of July contains a number of quite deliberate lies on your part. And

19 there are two aspects of your account in particular that I want to explore

20 with you briefly.

21 First of all, the question of motive. If I've understood it

22 correctly, you're saying that Ramush Haradinaj attacked your colleague

23 Idriz Ukehaxhaj for no reason at all, in an entirely unprovoked attack.

24 Is that right?

25 A. Could you repeat the question, please.

Page 3550

1 Q. Yes. Your evidence is that Ramush Haradinaj attacked your

2 colleague Idriz Ukehaxhaj for no reason at all in an entirely unprovoked

3 attack?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. And this was a man you'd known when you were younger. Is that

6 right?

7 A. You mean Mr. Ramush Haradinaj?

8 Q. Yes.

9 A. Of course, we knew each other.

10 Q. You'd known him when you were younger, and you had seen him in the

11 first half of 1998 when you'd come in to discuss soldiers who would join

12 in the conflict in Kosovo. He had been very pleased to welcome you at

13 that point. Is that right?

14 A. Yes. There was a very friendly meeting at the time.

15 Q. And the commander of Irzniq, you've told us, was a man called

16 Maxhun Cekaj. Is that right?

17 A. Yes, he was. Now he's dead.

18 Q. Yes.

19 MR. EMMERSON: Could we go into private session for just one

20 moment?


22 [Private session]

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3551

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

17 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


19 Q. And you were wearing a uniform, is that right, on this occasion?

20 A. Which occasion are you talking about? Could you speak more

21 concretely?

22 Q. On the 4th of July, when you were in Gllogjan, you had picked up a

23 uniform, you told us I think, from Irzniq. Is that not right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And were the other three men with you wearing uniforms as well?

Page 3552

1 A. Yes. They had uniforms. I had a uniform. We all had uniforms of

2 the army.

3 Q. And was there a patch on the arm of that uniform?

4 A. Most of the soldiers at that time, both in Prapaqan and soldiers

5 of Mr. Haradinaj, did not have patches. But we were part of the army;

6 both Mr. Haradinaj's part and the part that was under Tahir Zemaj's

7 control. Some of them did have patches, but some soldiers did not.

8 Q. And the four of you, did you have patches with insignia on your

9 arms?

10 A. No. No, I didn't. I'm not sure about them, but I don't believe

11 they had patches.

12 Q. And the other soldiers of the army that you were with, what were

13 the patches on their arms -- what did they say?

14 A. The same patches as Mr. Haradinaj's soldiers had. We did not have

15 different patches.

16 Q. You had UCK patches on your arms, generally, didn't you, in that

17 group of soldiers?

18 A. Please. Almost all had the patches of the KLA, but some of the

19 FARK were also members of the KLA. They were all together. There was

20 nothing wrong with that.

21 Q. There was a very close relationship between them. Is that right?

22 A. We had a close relationship and we expected for that to go on, and

23 we never expected what happened with Mr. Haradinaj.

24 Q. I'll come to what happened, generally, with your entry into Kosovo

25 in a little while. But just so that the Judges understand, there was no

Page 3553

1 separate FARK uniform. FARK soldiers wore KLA uniforms and badges

2 generally. You'll agree with that, I think?

3 A. Please. The uniforms changed because -- were different because

4 they came from different parts of the world; however, most of the

5 soldiers, both those under the command of Mr. Haradinaj and those under

6 the command of Tahir Zemaj, used the same badge. They were all part of

7 the same force.

8 Q. They were all part of the KLA?

9 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I'm going to object at this time. I

10 wonder if my colleague could specify what time he's referring to during

11 these questions.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.


14 Q. When you came into Kosovo on the 24th of June, the soldiers that

15 came with you, any of them that wore patches wore KLA patches, didn't

16 they?

17 A. When we entered Kosovo, we entered with the flag of our brigade;

18 and on the flag, there was the emblem of the KLA. There was an eagle in

19 the middle of the flag, and there were two hands; one saying "F," which is

20 the letter F, which was the FARK, and the other one, the other part of the

21 army. We were a brigade.

22 Q. And just to be clear, those soldiers that had patches and insignia

23 on their arms and on their caps had the UCK insignia, didn't they?

24 A. There were some who had those patches, but not all. For example,

25 I did not have that patch myself, but that did not stop me for being part

Page 3554

1 of -- from being part of the army.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please carefully listen to the question,

3 because Mr. Emmerson now two, three, or four times asked you whether

4 patches were worn by your soldiers, if they wore any patches, if these

5 were KLA patches. Is my understanding that that was the case correct?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to answer the question.

7 I said that there were some who had the KLA patches because the senior

8 representatives of the army had agreed upon that.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. "Why" is a different question. "Whether they

10 all had" is also a different question. But those who were wearing patches

11 were wearing KLA patches. That's well understood now I think.

12 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


14 Q. So you'd had a very helpful meeting with Mr. Haradinaj in the

15 early part of 1998. You say you saw him on the 4th of July in Irzniq, and

16 he was very pleasant to you, is that correct? He greeted you as a friend?

17 A. Yes, exactly.

18 Q. And you claim you went inside the headquarters, and he greeted you

19 as a friend there, too?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And then suddenly, for no reason, he attacked your colleague. Is

22 that right?

23 A. Yes, that's what happened.

24 Q. I suggest to you that the account you've given of this incident is

25 not true. Let me move on to another respect, and then I'll put to you

Page 3555

1 specifically what I suggest is the truth about this incident. Could you

2 be provided with the yellow file, please?

3 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honours have the yellow file. I'm dealing

4 with it this way simply for speed. Can I indicate that I currently do not

5 anticipate any new exhibits being brought into the system as a result of

6 this file, but some of the documents are already exhibits and the index

7 should indicate which are.

8 Q. Witness 29, behind tab 1 in this file is the statement you made in

9 2002.

10 MR. EMMERSON: And for Your Honours, I'm going to look at page 11

11 of the English version.

12 Q. And for you, Witness 29, if you turn to the second half of the

13 documents behind tab 1, you'll see that there is an Albanian translation

14 of your witness statement. And if you could turn, please, to the last two

15 paragraphs on page 15, I'm going to ask you some questions.

16 MR. EMMERSON: So if the usher can find page 15.

17 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions about the last two paragraphs

18 on page 15, and the first two paragraphs on page 16.

19 MR. EMMERSON: Which for Your Honours are the last four paragraphs

20 on page 11 from the words: "I heard shots being fired," down to the end

21 of page 11.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you aware that some of the text here might

23 ask for private session? That was remained unnoticed during the first

24 session.

25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.

Page 3556

1 JUDGE ORIE: If we look at page 11, fourth paragraph from the

2 bottom, the third word from the end of that line.

3 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry.

4 JUDGE ORIE: That has been overlooked.

5 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I see.

6 Q. In those four paragraphs, you set out the account that you've

7 given us of how you say you sustained your injury. I just want to ask you

8 one or two questions first of all. Is it right, as you say in the first

9 of those four paragraphs, and in the first sentence of that paragraph, the

10 first three words, that shots were being fired by other people during this

11 incident, that there were generally shots being fired in the area where

12 this incident took place. Is that right?

13 A. Yes, that's what happened.

14 Q. Thank you. And is it right, as well, that when you say you heard

15 a shot at a time when Mr. Haradinaj was standing at your back with a

16 pistol in his hand, that you didn't even realise at that point you'd been

17 shot. Is that right as well?

18 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I believe in a that misstates his

19 testimony. He didn't say Mr. Haradinaj was standing behind him. He

20 was --

21 JUDGE ORIE: It's a detail which would create no confusion.

22 Please proceed.


24 Q. Is it right, Witness 29, that at the time when you say you were

25 shot, you didn't realise that you had been shot?

Page 3557

1 A. I already said that at that moment I heard somebody say, "Let's

2 kill (redacted)," and Mr. Haradinaj said, "I'll kill him with my own

3 hands." But because of the pain on my whole body, I did not realise that

4 the bullet had hit me, at that moment I mean.

5 Q. And how long did it take you to realise that it was a bullet shot

6 that had hit you?

7 A. Very little time.

8 Q. So were you still struggling with Mr. Haradinaj at a time when you

9 realised it was a bullet shot, or was it after the struggle had come to an

10 end?

11 A. I realised when I saw the blood flowing, and then I saw the arm

12 and I saw the bullet, the exit point of the bullet.

13 Q. I see. Were you wearing your uniform? Did your uniform have arms

14 at that point? Were you wearing sleeves?

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. When you appreciated that it was a bullet wound, were you still

17 struggling with Mr. Haradinaj or was the struggle over?

18 A. When I realised exactly what had happened was when I went to that

19 private home, when I saw my body that was covered in blood, that's where I

20 realised a hundred per cent what had happened.

21 Q. So you didn't realise you had been shot until the incident was

22 over and you'd left the scene. Is that correct?

23 A. Please. At the moment I received that wound, it was unbelievable

24 to me that I had been shot; but when I left and went to this place we're

25 talking about, I saw all my arm covered in blood. But I realised at the

Page 3558

1 moment when I was hit, a little bit afterwards, when I saw the blood that

2 I had been hit.

3 Q. Yes. Can I put the question to you again. Was it during the

4 struggle with Mr. Haradinaj that you realised you had been shot, or was it

5 after that struggle was over?

6 A. I think I'm giving the same answer. At that moment, I realised I

7 was wounded. Can I continue?

8 JUDGE ORIE: The answer very precise is: "You said shortly after

9 you were shot, you realised that you were shot." The question now is:

10 "Had by then the struggle with Mr. Haradinaj already ended, or were you

11 still struggling with him when you noticed that you must have been hit by

12 a bullet?" That's the question.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The struggle was still going on. As

14 soon as I heard the pistol shot, I realised that I had been hit. But I

15 thought I would die from that wound. I never thought I would survive.

16 JUDGE ORIE: So you were aware already of having been hit when you

17 were still struggling with Mr. Haradinaj.

18 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Haradinaj was still over me when

20 I saw the blood.


22 Q. If we look at the last of the four paragraphs.

23 MR. EMMERSON: That's for us the bottom paragraph on page 11.

24 Q. For you, it is the second paragraph on page 16. If you just cast

25 your eye over that. Do we understand your evidence correctly? You never

Page 3559

1 saw Mr. Haradinaj discharge a fire-arm, but you concluded that it must

2 have been him because he was standing right behind you with a pistol in

3 his hand, and that is where the injury occurred. Is that your evidence?

4 A. At the moment when Mr. Haradinaj wounded me, nobody else was over

5 me. So it was his pistol against my body and his pistol that wounded me.

6 There's nothing else to be said. The truth is that Mr. Haradinaj wounded

7 me, and nobody else was over me, except Mr. Haradinaj.

8 Q. Just so that we're clear, that is a process which you've worked

9 out from the position he was in. You never saw him shoot at you. Is that

10 correct?

11 A. I said that I saw with my own eyes Mr. Haradinaj over me when he

12 shot me. Nobody else could have hit me. Mr. Haradinaj had his pistol

13 against my neck, the back of my neck.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Whether your conclusion is right or wrong is another

15 matter, but conclusions are here to be drawn by the Trial Chamber on the

16 basis of the evidence. Simply: Did you see his finger pull the trigger?

17 Did you see that with your eyes?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I saw the moment he was over

19 me, and he pulled the trigger in the direction of my neck. It was just

20 destiny that saved me. Mr. Haradinaj pulled the trigger.

21 JUDGE ORIE: From all your gestures, it seems that the weapon was

22 not within the sight of your eyes. I'm not saying that you're wrong or

23 you're right, but we just want to establish whether the weapon held, as

24 you said by Mr. Haradinaj, was within your view or whether it was perhaps

25 very close or just on your shoulder or you may have felt it. It could be

Page 3560

1 anything, but whether you could see that weapon at that time. Don't worry

2 about inferences. Don't worry about conclusions. If they have to be

3 made, if they're logical, then, of course, it's up to the Chamber to make

4 such conclusions.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. It was Mr. Haradinaj who

6 was over me. It was Mr. Haradinaj's pistol, and I saw it with my own eyes

7 when that pistol wounded me. I don't know how you as a Trial Chamber will

8 interpret this. I have come here to describe the event as it was, as it

9 happened.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me put it clear to you. If I am here at this

11 moment in this situation, I have difficulties on seeing what happens here.

12 I can't see it with my eyes. That's the problem. That doesn't mean that

13 it didn't happen as you said, but I can't see what is on the back of my

14 shoulder. I may feel it, I may hear it. I may everything, but I can't

15 see it. So now the question is -- and don't worry about what conclusions

16 should be drawn or should not be drawn.

17 The Chamber on the basis of all the evidence will make all the

18 determinations it will have to make. But did you see the finger of Mr.

19 Haradinaj pulling the trigger, or is it just that you knew that he was

20 just behind you and that you were at that time shot where you could not

21 imagine anyone else to do that than Mr. Haradinaj? That's the situation.

22 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please.


25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Haradinaj wounded me. I saw it

Page 3561

1 with my own eyes.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

3 MR. EMMERSON: I think we've understood the position.



6 Q. You say in your witness statement - and this is the bottom of the

7 last paragraph on page 11 - the bottom of your second paragraph on page

8 16, you say: "Because of the angle and direction, the bullet passed

9 through my upper arm. I do not believe the shot could have been fired by

10 anyone other than Ramush."

11 Is this a proper summary of the evidence you are able to give?

12 That's what you said in your statement.

13 A. My duty here is to explain the situation as it was. Mr. Haradinaj

14 wounded me with his gun. I don't know how you interpret the sentence.

15 The truth is that Mr. Haradinaj wounded me.

16 Q. Very well.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I think the matter has been

18 sufficiently explored.

19 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'll move on.


21 Q. Let me be clear, I want to take you through your evidence, please,

22 from the moment you saw him draw his gun to the moment you left the scene.

23 Now, you told us you saw him draw his gun, is that right, as he was

24 approaching you? Is that correct, as he approached you and Idriz?

25 A. The first moment Ramush was behind me before he hit Idriz

Page 3562

1 Ukehaxhaj; then Ramush moved towards the car, overtook me on the right,

2 and then went to Idriz --

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. -- and hit him.

5 Q. Listen very carefully. You've told us when he hit Idriz, he had

6 the gun in his hand. Is that right? Yes or no.

7 A. The pistol was in his right hand.

8 Q. Did you see him take the pistol out in the first place?

9 A. When he drew the pistol, I could not see him because he was behind

10 me. I only saw him when he overtook me, and he had the pistol in his hand

11 and hit the person on both sides of his face.

12 Q. Very well. That's clear. So you saw him as he overtook you, and

13 he already had the pistol in his hand. Is that correct?

14 A. I couldn't have seen him when he drew the pistol. I don't know

15 whether he drew the pistol out two metres or one metre behind me. I don't

16 know. I just saw him when he overtook me.

17 Q. Just listen to the question. When he overtook you, he already had

18 the pistol in his hand. Is that correct? Yes or no.

19 A. Please. I can't say when exactly. But when he came where I could

20 see him, he had the pistol in his hand.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, no one asked you. The simple question

22 was: Did you see him draw his pistol? The answer clearly is no, because

23 you said, "I could not see him when he drew the pistol."

24 So Mr. Emmerson asked for the second or the third time, although

25 it's perfectly clear to everyone that he had in the pistol in his hand

Page 3563

1 when he overtook you.

2 Please proceed.


4 Q. Now, Witness 29, from the moment you first saw the pistol in

5 Mr. Haradinaj's hand to the moment when he jumped on your back, did you

6 see him shoot his pistol at any time, between the time when he -- you

7 first saw it in his hand and the time when you say he jumped on your back?

8 A. The first thing that happened was that he hit Idriz, not me.

9 Q. Listen very carefully to the question.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Again the question: Mr. Haradinaj overtook you.

11 Sometime later, as you said, he was standing behind you, and you're

12 convinced that he fired a bullet into your arm. Did he fire his gun in

13 between, or was that the first shot, the shot that hit you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were shots around; but whether

15 it was Mr. Haradinaj's pistol or other guns, I couldn't identify them.

16 But while he hit Idriz with both hands, there were shots around.

17 JUDGE ORIE: The answer simply is: I don't know. It may have

18 been that Mr. Haradinaj fired his gun before this bullet hit me.

19 That's a simple answer. You don't have to explain it. Just focus

20 on the question. Yes. It's quite clear.

21 Please proceed.


23 Q. Now, Witness 29, apart from the time when you say he shot you in

24 your arm, did he at any other time shoot at you during this incident or

25 just the once?

Page 3564

1 A. He shot at me only once when he wounded me.

2 Q. And you saw the gun in his hand. After this, you told us a few

3 moments ago in your evidence - this is page 61, line 10 - you said:

4 "After the incident calmed down, he still had his pistol in his hand,"

5 and you saw this, did you?

6 A. Listen, listen. I want to say something to make it clear. At the

7 moment when someone shouted, "Let us kill (redacted)," and then Ramush

8 Haradinaj said, "I will kill (redacted) with my own hand," from that

9 moment, I saw him coming towards me with his pistol in his hand.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, we'll return into private session for

11 obvious reasons.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3565











11 Page 3565 redacted. Private session.















Page 3566

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 [Open session]

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.


10 Q. Witness 29, this document here records if you -- Witness 29 --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Listen to the question.


13 Q. Could you turn, please, behind tab 3, maybe with the usher's

14 assistance. I'm going to show you now a witness, interview which you gave

15 to the UNMIK police on the 9th of August, 2004. And if you could just

16 look, first of all, immediately behind -- before the usher takes you to

17 that passage, just at the very front page behind tab 3. Do you have tab 3

18 there?

19 Do you see your signature there about halfway down the page on

20 the, right-hand side, opposite your name. Do you see your signature, just

21 where your right index finger is now.

22 MR. EMMERSON: Could you pass the bundle to me? Yes.

23 Q. Do you see your signature there?

24 A. Yes, I see it in two places.

25 Q. If you turn over the page where there's some English writing, you

Page 3567

1 see it at the bottom of the page as well?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. In fact, as will be clear, you've signed every page of this

4 document, indicating at the end that you had had it read to you, fully

5 understood it, and agreed with its contents?

6 MR. EMMERSON: Now, for Your Honours, I'm looking at page 85.

7 That's the second page, and its number's at the bottom in pencil at

8 questions 6 and question 8.

9 And for the witness, the Albanian translation is just behind the

10 green tab. Page 89 is question 6 and just over the page, page 90, is

11 question 7. If you could direct the witness's attention to question 6 and

12 question 7.

13 Q. I'm just going to read both questions and answers to you, Witness

14 29; both of them first, before I ask you to comment on them.

15 Question 6: "Will you please tell us specifically about the

16 nature of your complaint against Ramush Haradinaj?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, reading at a slower pace.


19 Q. "A. On the 4th of July, 2004, [as read] during the war here in

20 Kosovo, Ramush Haradinaj for no apparent reason shot me several times from

21 behind with the use of his hand-gun with the intention to kill me. I

22 survived said attempt on my life. I was only hit once on my right

23 shoulder."

24 Question 8: "Will you please narrate to us in detail how you

25 managed to escape from that attempt on your life by Ramush Haradinaj?"

Page 3568

1 Your answer: "Ramush Haradinaj, after firing several shots on me,

2 he runs out of ammunition. At that instant, Ramush was then hesitant to

3 get closer or attack me further as I faced him ready to defend myself,

4 although I was badly injured. Sensing Ramush was really hesitant from

5 making any further attack on me, I decided to run away and was able to

6 escape."

7 Now, Witness 29, when you were interviewed by the UNMIK police in

8 August 2004, I suggest that you told them that Ramush Haradinaj shot you

9 several times until he ran out of ammunition?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Shot at you.


12 Q. Shot at you several times until he ran out of ammunition?

13 A. May I give you my answer?

14 Q. Yes, please.

15 A. I said that he fired several times and this is true, and others

16 fired as well. I couldn't identify who it was that fired. The important

17 thing here is that I was wounded by Mr. Ramush.

18 Q. Just look at your answer at page 93, line 4, please.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That might be difficult for the witness to

20 mind.

21 MR. EMMERSON: No, but I --

22 JUDGE ORIE: If you read it to him.


24 Q. You said a few moments ago --

25 MR. EMMERSON: No. We're not in the bundle anymore. I'm looking

Page 3569

1 at the transcript.

2 Q. You said a few moments ago in your evidence, Witness 29: "He shot

3 at me once only when he wounded me."

4 And then a little later on, when you were asked questions by the

5 Judge, you made it clear that although you saw the gun in his hand,

6 subsequently, there was never any further shot. I want to ask you why you

7 told the UNMIK police in August of 2004 that he shot at you several times

8 until he ran out of ammunition?

9 A. Mr. Haradinaj started to shoot at the first moment, and his

10 munition didn't last 500 shots. At the moment he wounded me, I still

11 heard shots. I couldn't say whether these shots were his or others, but I

12 do say that he fired several times and that only one bullet hit me.

13 Q. I see. So is it your evidence now that you saw him fire more than

14 one shot, Witness 29?

15 A. Even at the moment that he struck Ukehaxhaj, he still kept firing

16 his weapon. He shot -- he struck him with his pistol and fired. The same

17 happened with me.

18 Q. You just --

19 A. I can't say to you how many times he hit me.

20 Q. You just told us a few minutes ago that though those there were

21 shots being fired, you don't think any one of them was shot by

22 Mr. Haradinaj. He may have done; he may not.

23 A. Please, please. At the moment when someone shouted, "Let's kill

24 (redacted)," and he said, "I'll kill him with my own hand," he only hit me

25 with one bullet. I cannot say that he -- I have 20 bullet wounds

Page 3570

1 sustained on my body by him.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, the point at least is clear. There is

3 some inconsistency which is not fully explained at this moment.


5 Q. When you looked at your arm, did you see powder burns around the

6 wound, Witness 29?

7 A. I saw the powder burns afterwards when I went to get treatment.

8 My jacket was pierced, and it was burnt a little bit. How can I explain?

9 It was a little bigger than the actual bullet-hole. When the exit hole

10 was almost the same as the one that was seen on the jacket in terms of

11 size.

12 Q. And, again, you say you were shot effectively at point-blank

13 range. Is that correct?

14 A. You are talking about Mr. Haradinaj now?

15 Q. You say you were shot by Mr. Haradinaj at point-blank range. Is

16 that correct?

17 A. When I was wounded, he was very, very close. The pistol was

18 behind my back and because I moved, the bullet hit me where it did;

19 otherwise, I would have been hit on my neck.

20 Q. Yes. I see. And you --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, it's lack of knowledge of language.

22 "Point-blank range" exactly is what?

23 MR. EMMERSON: Immediately up against the target.

24 JUDGE ORIE: But is that a touching the target or is could it be

25 at a distance of two, three, four, five centimetres?

Page 3571

1 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Point-blank range means so close to be in a

2 few centimetres.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His pistol was on my back. It was

5 next to me. It was not far. It was on my body. I could feel it.

6 JUDGE ORIE: I was asking some clarification from Mr. Emmerson

7 what exactly he meant.

8 Please listen to the next question, Witness 29.


10 Q. Presumably, Witness 29, you would accept with all those armed KLA

11 men in the area, if they wanted to kill you, they would have had no

12 trouble doing it?

13 A. They did what they wanted to do. Apparently, they deemed it

14 appropriate to leave it at that. There is no other explanation I can

15 give.

16 Q. You see, I want to suggest to you, Witness 29, that although you

17 were involved in a fight at Gllogjan that day, that you've told a number

18 of deliberate lies about what happened.

19 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I'm sorry. Is there a question pending

20 here or is --


22 MR. KEARNEY: -- my colleague just expounding on his own view of

23 the evidence.

24 MR. EMMERSON: I'm putting my case. It's a requirement of the

25 Rules.

Page 3572

1 MR. KEARNEY: I would ask if this witness is being asked a

2 question, he be asked a question.

3 MR. EMMERSON: I'm putting my question.

4 JUDGE ORIE: If this is an objection and not a question, then it's

5 denied.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


8 Q. I suggest, Witness 29, that it's not true that you saw or spoke to

9 Ramush Haradinaj in Isniq on the 4th of July. If you listen carefully to

10 the suggestions I'm putting to you, I'll ask you to respond to them at the

11 end. I suggest that it's not true that you in Isniq.

12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Irzniq not Isniq.

13 JUDGE ORIE: It's properly pronounced by Mr. Emmerson, but it

14 is --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you ask me about Isniq village,

16 it is true that I did not speak to him.


18 Q. Let me put my question carefully. I am going to suggest to you

19 that you did not see or speak to Ramush Haradinaj in Irzniq on the 4th of

20 July, that you were never taken to Gllogjan at all within, that you drove

21 there on your route to Pacaj, and that you were stopped and got into a

22 dispute with the guards manning the check-point at Gllogjan.

23 I suggest to you, you never went inside the KLA HQ, and you never

24 spoke to Ramush Haradinaj inside the HQ, but that you got into an argument

25 with the KLA guards about 50 metres from the HQ. You refused to obey

Page 3573

1 their commands because you thought that as FARK soldiers you didn't have

2 to take orders from them. A fight broke out. Shots were fired, and that

3 it was at that point that Ramush Haradinaj ran up.

4 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, again, that's a very compound question.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is. Well, it's put to the witness a

6 different course of events, and I take it that Mr. Emmerson wants to know

7 whether the witness agrees that that is what actually happened, rather

8 than what he told us before.

9 Mr. Kearney, I think Mr. Emmerson is under a duty under Rule, I

10 think it's, 89(H), or something like that, to put to the witness -- let me

11 just have a look -- but please proceed meanwhile. I'll have a look at the

12 Rules.


14 Q. And I suggest further that he never drew his weapon, he never

15 threatened to kill you, and he certainly never shot at you, although shots

16 were being fired in the fracas that had taken place. That is the case I

17 am suggesting to you.

18 A. May I gave my answer or should I wait?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Please give your answer.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything I stated here is true.

21 With respect to the questions or opinions of the Defence lawyer, it's as

22 if I were going to tell him, We were in Amsterdam having a coffee.

23 I cannot be here and not tell you the truth. I cannot say

24 something which is not true. What he is saying, it's his business. I

25 cannot say anything. The truth is what I already stated.

Page 3574



3 Q. Thank you.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I was referring to Rule 90(H), where if

5 counsel invites a witness to give evidence relevant for his case, then, of

6 course, the case is what, in the view of the Defence, happened, that

7 counsel shall put to that witness the nature of the case of the party in

8 this respect. So therefore, that's what Mr. Emmerson did.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.


11 Q. I want to turn to the more general questions that you have given

12 evidence in relation to FARK, but to do it quickly because we are under

13 time pressure, so if you can keep your answers as short as possible.

14 First of all, I want to suggest to you on the day after this

15 incident, on the 5th of July, Ramush Haradinaj had a meeting with Tahir

16 Zemaj in Luke, just east of Decane, in which the incident that you had

17 been involved with was the subject of discussion. Did you know that?

18 A. Mr. Haradinaj and Mr. Zemaj met, but I don't know on what date,

19 and I know that Mr. Haradinaj apologised to him. That's why they met,

20 only for him to apologise; that is, I made a mistake. The situation got

21 out of control. I couldn't control myself.

22 This is more or less what he told Zemaj, at least as I heard it.

23 I wasn't present.

24 Q. You are aware, though, that the meeting took place, I suggest, in

25 fact, it was the 5th of July, the day after the incident. And what

Page 3575

1 Mr. Haradinaj told Mr. Zemaj, I suggest, and what Mr. Zemaj told you, is

2 that Mr. Haradinaj had apologised for the behaviour of the guards, in the

3 sense that the situation had got out of control. But that as far as he

4 understood, you and your colleagues had begun the confrontation.

5 A. If we were the ones who started the confrontation, why then did

6 Mr. Haradinaj come to Mr. Zemaj to apologise? This shows that he

7 understood that he was in error, and he came to apologise. At least this

8 is what my commander told me, that Mr. Haradinaj accepted the mistake,

9 apologised: This is not going to happen anymore. I couldn't control the

10 situation -- contain myself. The situation got out of control. It was

11 very wrong. That's it.

12 Q. Witness 29, you know full well that Ramush Haradinaj never said to

13 Tahir Zemaj that he could not control himself because you discussed this

14 with Tahir Zemaj, didn't you?

15 A. I wasn't present at that meeting between Mr. Zemaj and

16 Mr. Haradinaj, but I can only relay the words that my commander told me,

17 that Mr. Haradinaj apologised, the situation got out of control, I made a

18 mistake, and I'm not going to repeat the mistakes.

19 Q. Very well. Let me come to one or two other general questions

20 about the evidence you've given in relation to the relationship between

21 FARK and the KLA. And I want to suggest to you as a general proposition

22 that there were some initial problems of integration between the newly

23 arrived forces and the existing KLA; that those problems lasted no more

24 than two weeks; and that by the 10th of July, as our regards show, the

25 forces that Tahir Zemaj had brought into the Dukagjini region had been

Page 3576

1 fully integrated within the KLA, under the command of Ramush Haradinaj.

2 A. May I answer? The fact is that Mr. Haradinaj was a

3 self-proclaimed commander. I don't know who had appointed him in that

4 position. In the case of Mr. Zemaj, there was another structure. Someone

5 had appointed him commander. And, of course, Mr. Haradinaj had to welcome

6 Mr. Zemaj because, in fact, Mr. Zemaj was the general, overall commander

7 for the entire Dukagjin Zone.

8 Q. Well, that's what Mr. Zemaj thought because he was operating under

9 instructions from Ahmet Krasniqi. Is that right?

10 He thought he was the overall commander of the Dukagjini Zone and

11 was marching into it. Is that correct?

12 A. If any Albanian, any member of the KLA, wanted to call themselves

13 as a soldier, fighting for the future of Kosova, they had to obey the

14 orders of the prime minister and of the president. Whoever disobeyed such

15 orders, let them have their own responsibility.

16 Q. Witness 29, there were two separate structures giving orders

17 during the period immediately after FARK came into Kosovo, weren't there?

18 There was Tahir Zemaj taking orders from Ahmet Krasniqi; and then there

19 was an existing structure within Kosovo which had no connection to Ahmet

20 Krasniqi or the Bukoshi government. You know that, don't you?

21 A. Before we entered Kosova, some agreements were already in place.

22 I wasn't part of such agreement, but I know that there was an agreement.

23 We didn't go there just because we wanted to.

24 Q. You see, I want to -- you've mentioned disagreements that took

25 place in the Jasic area. Although, you told us you weren't there at the

Page 3577

1 meeting, you've given us an account of what you were told took place, with

2 threats being made against FARK soldiers and so forth.

3 Is it really the position that you don't know what the nature of

4 the disagreement was? Do you really not know what they were disagreeing

5 about?

6 A. The agreement that I mentioned and that was referred to at the

7 time was that the KLA will welcome the FARK, will cooperate with it, and

8 will be placed under its supervision; that is, under the supervision of

9 the FARK.

10 Q. Well, that was the understanding that Tahir Zemaj had, I suggest.

11 When you first arrived, is it not correct that you were -- the officers

12 were given a feast. There was a large meal laid on for them by the KLA?

13 A. It was the Jasic village, the entire population of the village,

14 that welcomed us, and I can say that they welcomed us very warmly. I'm

15 talking about the people's reception, not about the KLA. I explained to

16 you how the KLA and Ramush Haradinaj received us.

17 Q. There were then a series of meetings; some at Junik and some at

18 Jasic. And if you are telling us the truth that you were being provided

19 with information from Tahir Zemaj, you will know, I suggest, that the

20 disagreement was because the KLA commanders wanted the trained officers of

21 the FARK to be distributed to reinforce defences in different parts of the

22 Dukagjin Zone; whereas, Tahir Zemaj had instructions from Ahmet Krasniqi

23 to keep the FARK forces as one unit.

24 You knew, didn't you, that that was the nature of the

25 disagreement?

Page 3578

1 A. I spoke only about Jasic reception. In Junik and other places, I

2 was in Isniq village, trying to find some places to accommodate our forces

3 in order to escape the fratricide with Mr. Haradinaj. From what I know,

4 because I wasn't part of the agreement, I cannot speak here for things

5 which is not part of my knowledge is that Mr. Tahir Zemaj should be the

6 overall commander for the 3rd operational zone of Dukagjin. Whereas

7 Ramush Haradinaj who was a commander before we entered Kosova would be

8 incorporated into the force -- into the FARK, that was it. But Mr.

9 Haradinaj acted in opposition to this.

10 Q. I see?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson before you continue you earlier said if

12 you are providing us with the truth about information, et cetera, you will

13 know, that ignores that the information might not be correct that has been

14 provided to the witness.

15 MR. EMMERSON: That's right.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You ignored that, and that should be refrained from.

17 Please proceed.


19 Q. You see, I suggest that after the week or so that you spent in the

20 Jasic area or that the FARK forces spent in the Jasic area, the

21 difficulties were resolved to the extent that the FARK forces were able to

22 march up to Isniq, going through Gllogjan. Isn't that correct?

23 A. During that period, they had some other meetings but I wasn't

24 present at them. And from what I learned later from the commander, during

25 that period they had threatened us again and threatened us to go back to

Page 3579

1 the territory of Albania. But the order was given to us to enter Kosova;

2 then the problem was resolved through understanding that we leave Jasic,

3 an understanding between our superior officers to avoid any bloodshed.

4 But on the way, Mr. Haradinaj's forces attempted to prevent us,

5 but Mr. Krasniqi had ordered us to continue our march. So the order

6 was given to us to go to Isniq at all costs, irrespective of any threats,

7 any circumstances.

8 Q. The KLA soldiers under the command of Ramush Haradinaj fought side

9 by side with FARK soldiers at the battle of Loxha on the 6th of July just

10 two days after the incident you've described, didn't they?

11 A. The battle was waged at Loxha. The army from there was led by

12 Tahir Zemaj. There were also members of the KLA who were inhabitants of

13 Loxhe village but everything was led by Colonel Zemaj, at least this is

14 what I knew.

15 Q. The barracks at Prapaqan, they were provided by Ramush Haradinaj,

16 they were KLA barracks in which Rrustem Teta had been training KLA

17 soldiers and they were handed over to Tahir Zemaj, weren't they, on the

18 8th of July?

19 A. When we went to Prapaqan, there was no kind of investment made

20 there. There were no soldiers being trained. We transformed the school

21 into barracks. That place needed some investment, you know, beds to be

22 put in there, and everything was done by Commander Tahir Zemaj. Later on,

23 some from Mr. Ramush Haradinaj came there and we welcomed them. The

24 commander welcomed them to train them, but this was after we settled there

25 in the school. It's not what you told me.

Page 3580

1 Q. Just have a look behind tab 4, would you were briefly, please,

2 Witness 29. Behind tab 4 in the bundle, please.

3 MR. EMMERSON: Perhaps the usher could help.

4 Q. I'll just go through these very briefly with you if I could.

5 Behind tab 4(A), first of all, and there's a translation on the third and

6 fourth pages. That's an order signed by Ramush Haradinaj deploying KLA

7 soldiers to the Prapaqan barracks on the 8th of July.

8 Do you accept that there were KLA soldiers at Prapaqan barracks

9 from the 8th of July?

10 A. Please. I said that we were the first there, and later about 50

11 soldiers from Mr. Haradinaj came there. They had a commander who was from

12 Gjakove, if I'm not mistaken, but I'm not sure. But as I said, we were

13 the first there. They came later.

14 Q. Lets just be clear. You say in your witness statement that it was

15 the 8th of July that you went there. There were KLA soldiers there with

16 you at that time, weren't there, in the barracks?

17 A. When we went there, I said Mr. Tahir Zemaj, the commander, created

18 that place. I cannot say things here that are untrue. He paid for some

19 of the things that were needed there. These were not procedures that I

20 was involved in. Mr. Tahir Zemaj dealt with that.

21 Q. If you just look at tab 5(B) for a moment, that is a request by

22 Tahir Zemaj addressed to the Dukagjin Plain Operative Staff, of the 10th

23 of July, requesting the formation of three brigades of his officers. If

24 you follow over, there's 4 (B), 5 (A), and 35 (B), you can see Ramush

25 Haradinaj authorising the requests and establishing the brigades on the

Page 3581

1 12th of July.

2 So by the 10th of July, if you can see the request from Tahir

3 Zemaj, he's referring to an agreement from the 10th of July requesting and

4 proposing that the officers listed below be appointed to certain

5 functions. So by the 10th of July, would you accept that Tahir Zemaj was

6 fully absorbed within the Dukagjin Plain Operative Staff, under the

7 command of Ramush Haradinaj, just two weeks or so after FARK arrived?

8 A. You are asking me questions I have no competence over. I cannot

9 speak here about things I do not know. The thing I am saying here is when

10 we first went there, there was no soldier of Mr. Haradinaj there. I was a

11 simple soldier. I had senior officers who dealt with these things.

12 Q. Finally, this: I suggest as you lied about the incident at

13 Gllogjan, Witness 29, you deliberately tried to persuade the Trial Chamber

14 falsely, and knowing it was false, that during this period of time FARK

15 were under threat from KLA, when in fact there were a number of

16 organisational difficulties that were resolved in a period of two weeks.

17 That is my suggestion.

18 MR. KEARNEY: Objection to the phrase "at that time." It's vague.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at that time.

20 MR. EMMERSON: Well, within the two weeks --

21 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's clear everything was rotating around

22 let's say, early July.

23 MR. EMMERSON: The two weeks between the 24th of June when they

24 entered and the 10th of July when it is perfectly plain that they were

25 fully integrated. That's the suggestion.

Page 3582

1 JUDGE ORIE: So, Witness 29, Mr. Emmerson puts to you that there

2 were no threats by the KLA or that FARK was under threat of the KLA; and,

3 in fact, there were a number of organisatorial [sic] difficulties which

4 were resolved in two weeks. That is what he puts to you. Would you

5 agree with that, or would you say that's not true, what Mr. Emmerson puts

6 to you?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My duty here is to tell the truth.

8 Whatever the learned Defence lawyer says here, it's his duty. He has to

9 do his duty. What I'm saying here is the complete opposite of what the

10 lawyer just stated here, and those are my experiences that I lived.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, was that your last question?

12 Mr. Guy-Smith.

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. Quite briefly, in order to save as much time

14 as I can, I make the exact same two suggestions to the witness that were

15 previously made by Mr. Emmerson with regard to the issue concerning FARK,

16 as well as the issue concerning what happened during July 4th.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're putting exactly the same to the witness?

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm putting exactly the same, and I'm moving on

19 from there.

20 JUDGE ORIE: I take it what the answers given to Mr. Emmerson are

21 answers in the case against all accused, so therefore there's no need to

22 repeat that.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excellent. I won't concern myself with that

24 anymore.


Page 3583

1 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

2 Q. Witness 29, simply put, you are much more than a simple soldier.

3 As a matter of fact, you were tasked specifically by your superiors to go

4 into the region, as you told us, between January and the time you finally

5 entered in June to make a determination of how the population was to

6 defend themselves and "if it was a situation where we could fight." Is

7 that correct? That's what you've told us.

8 A. Yes, that's correct. But I said I was not a senior officer;

9 because had I been a senior officer, that would have meant that I finished

10 some kind of military academy or something.

11 Q. I understand that. You've also told us that during -- during the

12 period of time that you were engaged in your reconnaissance missions to

13 make a determination whether or not the group you were assigned to that

14 could come in and fight, the movements of the population became more

15 difficult, and that would be after March 24th.

16 I would like for you to comment on what you meant by the movements

17 of the population became more difficult. Is that as a result of the fact

18 that you saw yourself that wide-scale numbers of the population were, in

19 fact, fleeing from various areas because of the Serb bombing, shelling, or

20 other kinds of assaults?

21 A. The movement of the population became even more difficult after

22 the 24th of March because the KLA emerged at that time and the enemy

23 forces wanted to eliminate the KLA. So in some situations the people

24 living in the villages didn't want to get caught up in confrontation.

25 This was why the population had -- it was difficult for the population to

Page 3584

1 move.

2 Q. And when you say the population didn't want to get caught up in

3 the confrontation, these were things you saw. You actually saw villages

4 of people trying to escape the area because of what was happening due to

5 the Serb assaults; correct? This was a kind of information that you were

6 reporting back to your superiors in Albania when you would go back from

7 one of your ten trips; right?

8 A. When I went back, I reported on the basis of the assessments that

9 I had made, and it may be that my assessments were not a hundred per cent

10 accurate. But from what I saw, the people wanted to live, of course.

11 Q. Being, if it is fair to say, the eyes and ears of Tahir Zemaj,

12 when you were going into the field on these trips, you mentioned, among

13 other things, that you were trying to make an assessment of the

14 preparation by self-defence by the "peasants," were your words. And what

15 I would like to understand, when you were trying to make that

16 determination, was that one of the things that occurred when you were

17 going from village to village, you were trying to figure out how many of

18 the peasants were involved in trying to defend their own villages?

19 A. Can I answer now?

20 Q. You may.

21 A. I'm trying to explain as correctly as possible. These were visits

22 that I was assigned with by Mr. Sali Ceku and Commander Zemaj; initially

23 by Mr. Ceku. However, my assessments were not, I think, a hundred per

24 cent accurate possibly, because I could not be in the position to do a

25 full assessment. But the people wanted to stay and defend their villages.

Page 3585

1 They could not just stay there and be attacked. They had to take up arms

2 and defend their own villages. It was not possible for the KLA to defend

3 everyone.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- with only a couple of guns.

6 JUDGE ORIE: -- you misrepresented the evidence of the witness in

7 relation to the peasants. I checked it. He didn't say he was trying to

8 an assessment of the preparation of self-defence by the peasants, but he

9 said what he observed; that is, that sometimes, it was just self-defence

10 by peasants.

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: I did not mean to misrepresent it, and as I see

12 it, it says: "Only some preparations for self-defence by the peasants

13 were under way." I believe that's his exact language on page 13, line 22.

14 But I wasn't trying to misrepresent anything. The point that I was

15 driving at --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you did.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: The point I was driving at is as follows, and I

18 will ask the question again.

19 Q. Which is: During the period of time you were trying to make an

20 assessment of what was going on on the ground, one of the things you were

21 making an assessment about was some of the preparations for self-defence

22 by the peasants that were underway; correct?

23 A. The peasants, or the villagers, wanted to get guns as soon as

24 possible. They wanted to defend themselves. They couldn't have military

25 structures. The population was interested in self-defence, to get some

Page 3586

1 guns and be able to defend themselves.

2 Q. Thank you. When you visited the villages that you mentioned to

3 us, those being: Smolice, Ponoshec, Racaj, Junik, Herec, Gramaqel,

4 Irzniq, and Luka, did you have a chance to make a determination who was

5 the village commander of each of those villages while you were on your

6 trips making assessments for your superiors?

7 A. There were periods when I went to Kosovo, and there were no

8 village commanders. I went to Kosovo even before the 24th of March when

9 the KLA had not emerged yet; while after the 24th every village, although

10 every village, although I can't say each and every village, it's better to

11 say some of the villages had begun to organise themselves in the meaning

12 that they had assigned a certain commander for the village.

13 Q. Can you tell us, as you sit here today, with regard to the

14 villages that you mentioned in your direct testimony and I just asked you

15 about, who the village commanders were?

16 A. I don't have any minutes here to tell me who was the commander for

17 each village. I've written down some names when I visited the villages in

18 the commune of Decane; however, when I talked to some of the villagers and

19 people, representatives in Decane, they told me that Mr. Haradinaj was in

20 command in that area. I was just a simple soldier then. Other people

21 evaluated the situation.

22 Q. My question is with regard, once again, to the village commander.

23 For example, did you know who was the village commander for the village of

24 Smolice?

25 A. I don't know even today who the commander in Smolice was.

Page 3587

1 Q. Ponoshec?

2 A. Please. At that time, I was just trying to assess the situation.

3 I was not writing down all the names.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Just tell us if you know it. I take it that,

5 Mr. Guy-Smith, you would like to go through all of them?

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I would like to do them as quickly as

7 possible, and I can repeat them. --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Racaj. Do you know who the commander there was? If

9 you don't know just tell us.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Junik, same question?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Junik was divided into some parts,

13 but I don't think they had a commander. Somebody came with us, and he was

14 assigned a commander; while in the area of Reka e Keqe, Salih Veseli was a

15 commander there. Although, I am not very sure.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Gramaqel, do you know the name of a commander?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Irzniq, I take it that you mentioned the name of the

19 commander there already?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the early period. It was

21 very early. I can't be sure.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Luka?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Rrustem Teta, people said that

24 he was commander.


Page 3588

1 Mr. Guy-Smith.

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Q. Do you know an individual --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, I'm looking at the clock, and I don't

5 know what you had in mind. I asked earlier whether the Defence considered

6 that they could finish if we would have half an hour in addition, and then

7 I got the message that most likely they would be able to do so. How much

8 time would you still need?

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Five to ten minutes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

11 Would you need any additional time for re-examination,

12 Mr. Kearney?

13 MR. KEARNEY: Just one question.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, five minutes are granted.


16 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of Sami Tahiri from the

17 village of Beleg?

18 A. Sami Tahiri, he lives in Switzerland, and he was a prisoner after

19 the 1990s.

20 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Zenon Idrizi?

21 A. Yes, I do.

22 Q. Were you involved in an assault on Baballoq with them?

23 A. I was to some extent I would say, but not directly involved

24 because duties were assigned to us, as always; and in the assault of

25 Baballoq that you are asking me, there were three other persons. I wasn't

Page 3589

1 directly involved in that assault. I had another task assigned, as the

2 case was in other instances.

3 Q. Due to the time constraints that exist, I'm going to ask you a

4 question concerning what you've told us here today, which is that you

5 claimed in your testimony that when you were on your way to the

6 headquarters at Gllogjan, that you were driven between two cars and when

7 you arrived that one of the cars, being driven by Togeri, parked behind

8 you; correct?

9 A. When we left for Gllogjan, Daut was before we behind. When we

10 arrived in Gllogjan, Togeri was parked behind us.

11 Q. Do you recall making a statement in 2006?

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I'm referring the Court and counsel to

13 paragraph 13 of the statement.

14 Q. This is a statement you correct your previous statement, and you

15 say the following: "At page 9 of my statement, where I stated Idriz

16 parked his car about 50 metres from the entrance to the yard of the

17 Gllogjan, the KLA headquarters, I can clarify that Daut parked his car in

18 front of mine, but I did not see where Togeri went in his car."

19 When you made that correction to your statement, you were telling

20 the truth then, were you not?

21 A. I said in my statement - and it is very clear to me how it

22 happened - Daut parked the car in front of us; Toger behind us. I didn't

23 say where Togeri went. We parked in the middle about 50 metres far from

24 him, and there was nothing left for us to do. We were like in a sandwich

25 position. What could we do?

Page 3590

1 We had gone there to talk. We hadn't gone there to fight. I had

2 met Mr. Haradinaj half an hour before, so I went there without any

3 problem.

4 Q. And a final question: I suggest to you that at the store area,

5 you never had any contact with Toger whatsoever, and he never shot any gun

6 up in the air or threatened you in any fashion whatsoever. Isn't that

7 true?

8 A. If you give me the opportunity to tell the truth, I will say the

9 truth. How you put it, it's your business. The truth is this, and if you

10 want me I will repeat it. Toger threatened us and brought out his weapon

11 and even threatened us with his weapon and even fired up in the air with

12 his weapon.

13 Q. Is that that -- when he did that, according to your testimony, is

14 what he did he pulled his weapon out and immediately fired it into the

15 air. Is that your testimony?

16 A. After them insisting on us getting into their car and taking us to

17 where they wanted, and after us then agreed, because what could we do? I

18 could go to Mr. Haradinaj, for me it would have been a pleasure having met

19 him half an hour ago. But I just said, I don't want to come with your

20 car. That was a solution we agreed on.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Could --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Toger pulled out his pistol --

23 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether he pulled out his weapon and

24 immediately fired this, whether that is your testimony?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Toger pulled out his weapon and told

Page 3591

1 us that, "You have to come with us in our car," and that he fired in the

2 air. I may not tell you exactly how many times he did, but for sure five

3 times, even more.


5 Q. Before he -- before you saw him do that, fire his weapon in the

6 air five times, did you watch him load his weapon? Did he take his pistol

7 out and load it and then fire it in the air?

8 MR. KEARNEY: Well, that misstates his answer that he fired it

9 five times in the air.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was two, three metres away from

11 me. I could see each and every movement of his.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't mean to misrepresent his testimony with

13 regard to how many times he fired in the air.

14 Q. My question is this: You saw him pull out his pistol; and before

15 he fired it into the air, did you see him load his pistol?

16 A. You cannot load the weapon when you pull it out.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, quite clear. When he drew his weapon,

18 before he fired, did you see him loading his weapon or, that's the

19 opposite, was it already loaded?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He kept the pistol all the time in

21 his hand, then he loaded it, and then immediately fired in the air five or

22 six times. This is what I saw and this is the truth.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.


25 Q. Yes. Do you recall when you made --

Page 3592

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, I gave you five minutes. You have now

2 seven and a half.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: May I ask one more question?

4 JUDGE ORIE: One last question.


6 Q. Do you recall when you told UNMIK in your statement in 2004 what

7 occurred regarding this incident, which is question 7, the following:

8 "Lieutenant Idriz Balaj immediately drew his hand-gun, loaded it, and

9 fired about four shots in the air."

10 A. If you are asking me another question, I will give you an answer,

11 but I already answered your question. He fired five or six times.

12 He loaded it and fired in the air to force us to get into his car.

13 That is the long and the short of it.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I asked for one more question; I got one more

16 question.


18 Mr. Kearney, you asked for one more question as well.

19 MR. KEARNEY: Yes, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed.

21 Re-examination by Mr. Kearney:

22 Q. Witness 29, you were asked many questions about exactly what

23 happened during the period when you were beaten and when you were shot. I

24 want to ask you simply: Could you please tell us what your physical and

25 mental state was during that time-period when you were being beaten and

Page 3593

1 being shot?

2 A. You can understand what my mental state would be. When somebody

3 beats you in that fashion, when someone wounds you for no reason at all,

4 you can imagine what it is like, in a very bad state indeed.

5 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

7 MR. EMMERSON: If Your Honours has it in mind to ask the witness

8 to produce the notes --


10 MR. EMMERSON: -- I wonder if you would make an order that the

11 notebook itself and all copies of the notebook should remain with the

12 Tribunal; in other words, any copies that the witness may have of the

13 notebook in his possession should be handed to the Prosecution and kept

14 for safe-keeping.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The notebook or notes? Because the notebook was

16 returned to the Prosecution.

17 Witness 29, would you mind to leave the notebook for the time

18 being, the original, in the hands of the Prosecution and then perhaps

19 copies could be made for yourself, so that you, if you want to, consult

20 what was in the notebook.

21 MR. EMMERSON: For reasons, that might be best be dealt with

22 without the witness's headphones. I'm anxious that he should not take

23 with him any copies of the content of the notebook.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.

25 Mr. Kearney, any problems with that?

Page 3594

1 MR. KEARNEY: No. Your Honour, I'm going to suggest that perhaps

2 the Trial Chambers might consider sending someone from VWS to go with the

3 witness --


5 MR. KEARNEY: -- to get the notes and bring them back to the

6 Tribunal.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And up to that moment, to keep the original.

8 Has any copy been made and provided to you, Witness 29, or have

9 you made any copies yourself of the notebook?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't make any copies because I

11 brought it here to show it to you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, we'll keep the notebook for the time

13 being. That does not mean you will not receive a copy of the original

14 back perhaps at a later stage, but for the time being we would like to

15 keep it in the Tribunal. Would you agree with that?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whatever you deem appropriate.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But if you either keep a copy or

19 give me the original or the other way around, as you think it's best.

20 JUDGE ORIE: You'll receive that at a later stage, not

21 immediately. Is that understood?

22 Then I would like to instruct you, since you said you are willing

23 to provide all the notes you still have, to accept to be accompanied by

24 someone of the Victims and Witnesses Section to accompany you to any place

25 where you keep one of these notes, and to provide them to the person that

Page 3595

1 accompanies you, or someone assigned by the Victims and Witnesses Section,

2 because I do not know exactly where the limits of their competence is.

3 They might find someone to secure that. So you are now under an order to

4 provide all these notes. Do you understand that?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is also my pleasure, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's good to hear; then I'd like to thank you

7 very much for having come to The Hague. Whether it will be necessary at

8 any later stage to ask you to come back, we do not know yet. It might be

9 that there's no need for that. It might be otherwise. We do not know,

10 but you'll be informed about it if that's the case.

11 Yes, Mr. Emmerson, can the witness be excused already?

12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I was just going to say, to save time, I'll

13 deal with the exhibits of documents that were dealt with in

14 cross-examination first thing, if I may, when we resume.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's best.

16 Witness, thank you very much. I wish you a safe trip home again.

17 Yes, you are excused.

18 Yes. We'll deal with all the administrative matters at a later

19 stage.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE ORIE: Is there something you need to bring to my attention?

22 MR. KEARNEY: Just that we need to read the 92 ter summary into

23 the record.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll do that at a later time when we have

25 time.

Page 3596

1 Thank you to all the interpreters and the technicians and the

2 usher and all others who were quite flexible to make it possible for us to

3 finalise the information of Witness 29. We adjourn until the 7th of May,

4 quarter past 2.00, in Courtroom I.

5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.29 p.m.,

6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of

7 May, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.