1 Thursday, 26 April 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 The Chamber would like to invite the parties to address the
11 matters of the notes, having now seen the original one will be returned to
12 the Prosecution as they provided it. The parties are invited to address
13 the Court not more than five minutes on the matter how to proceed at this
14 very moment. If you could do it in less than five minutes, that would be
16 May I take it that the matter is equal for all Defence counsel;
17 that doesn't make any difference whether it's Mr. Haradinaj or
18 Mr. Brahimaj or Mr. Balaj?
19 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
21 MR. EMMERSON: I can deal with it I hope in two minutes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. EMMERSON: The position is Your Honours will have seen the
24 copies and translations I hope of the contents of the notebook.
25 Comparisons have been made between those notes and the notes that were
1 supplied in December. There is no verbatim information from the December
2 notes that appears in the notebook.
3 There are two pages where there is some similar information, but
4 it's limited to one line on one page and two pieces of information on
5 another page, which essentially are the dates on which this witness made
6 his OTP witness statement. So other than those two isolated examples, all
7 of the information in the notebook comes from some source other than the
8 notes that were supplied in December.
9 In terms of practical proposals - and we're all anxious to reduce
10 delay, for obvious reasons, as much as possible - we've discussed the
11 matter between ourselves. The suggestion we put forward for the Chamber's
12 consideration is that we proceed now with examination-in-chief and with
13 Mr. Kearney keeping as far as he can to the time estimate with
15 We then break and depending upon whether Your Honours wish to
16 conclude cross-examination tomorrow or -- or at some later stage. The
17 witness, as I understand it, has not been able to obtain the notes
18 overnight. It may be that the most convenient thing would be to break at
19 the end of the session today, for the witness to obtain his notes, and
20 then to return for further cross-examination if necessary.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You say let's proceed with examination-in-chief,
22 cross-examination, and, if need be, re-call for cross-examination once we
23 have received everything.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I think one would expect him to return after
25 the break with his notes, then to be examined; and then, in fact, if there
1 is rise for cross-examination, for the cross-examination to be concluded
2 at that stage, if Your Honours are in agreement.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And when you're talking about the break, you
4 mean the break of the week?
5 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay.
7 Mr. Kearney.
8 MR. KEARNEY: That's our understanding also. Mr. Emmerson and I
9 has a long talk this morning about the matter, and we feel that we should
10 just go as far as we can today. Hopefully, we can finish the direct
11 examination and perhaps a good portion of cross. Let the witness go home,
12 gather every note he can possibly find, come back with them, and then we
13 can finish the matter at that point.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber will decide at a later stage
15 whether we now already decide that he should return to the Hague with the
16 notes, or whether he's expected to send the notes to The Hague, and then
17 we'll then consider whether or not he's needed here in The Hague for
18 further cross-examination. It is as if the parties could have read the
19 mind of the Chamber.
20 The Chamber, of course, has considered the matter well in advance
21 and was inclined to find a similar solution but first wanted to hear the
22 parties about it. We'll proceed as suggested by the parties, and the
23 witness will be instructed to deliver in one way or another, through the
24 Victims and Witnesses Section most likely, his notes to The Hague after he
25 has returned home.
1 Madam Usher, could you please escort the witness into the
3 Mr. Kearney, in the present circumstances, of course, the Chamber
4 would very much appreciate if you would strictly adhere to time
5 assessments, if you would even be able to gain a bit of time that would
6 enhance the possibility that we would finish with the -- I would say the
7 normal line of examination-in-chief and cross-examination today.
8 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, we'll do the best we can. Obviously,
9 there is substantial material to elicit from this witness, however. So
10 we'll go as fast as we can.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning. Please be seated, Witness 29.
14 I'd like to remind you that the solemn declaration you gave
15 yesterday still binds you; that means that you still have to answer all
16 questions in accordance with the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
17 the truth. You'll now be examined by Mr. Kearney, and we now move on, not
18 just about notes but about what happened at the time.
19 Mr. Kearney, please proceed.
20 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 And with the Court's permission, I'd like to call up, if I may, 65
22 ter number 1312. This is the 92 ter statement of the witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That is the nine-paragraph 92 ter statement. Perhaps
24 I could already ask the Defence whether there's any objection against
25 admission of.
1 MR. EMMERSON: None, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: There's none, so let's first hear the witness answer
3 the questions about it.
4 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/29 [Resumed]
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 Examination by Mr. Kearney: [Continued]
7 Q. Witness 29, do you see a document on the screen in front of you?
8 A. Yes, I see it.
9 Q. Do you recognise that document, Witness 29?
10 A. Yes, of course.
11 Q. And do you recognise both your name and your signature on that
13 JUDGE ORIE: The name, as shown now, and signature.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can see my name, my
15 signature, and some of my notes, and my signature.
16 MR. KEARNEY: And I wonder if we could show the witness the actual
17 text of that statement, please.
18 JUDGE ORIE: That would be on the next page -- no. It says this
19 is 1 page out of 1.
20 MR. KEARNEY:
21 Q. Witness 29, please take a look at the nine paragraphs there
22 reflected in that statement, and I would like to ask you, first of all, if
23 you recognise what is being discussed in those paragraphs and if those are
24 your true words.
25 A. Yes. What I see here is part of the statement I gave.
1 Q. And the information contained in that document, is it accurate?
2 A. All the information I gave is accurate from all the things that I
3 remembered. I don't know if I forgot anything. It's been a long time,
4 and maybe I forgot some minor detail.
5 Q. If you were asked those same questions today in court, would you
6 give those same answers?
7 A. If you ask me the same questions today, maybe I might have
8 forgotten some of the things, minor things, that have happened, but I
9 think 95 per cent of what I said I will say again.
10 Q. And --
11 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be some confusion. This statement you
12 are now looking at is the statement which you gave in this month when you
13 arrived in The Hague.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This is a statement I gave some
15 time ago, not now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to be some confusion. Mr. Kearney, could
17 you, please, because I see on the -- let me just check.
18 MR. KEARNEY: I can clear it up, Your Honour, I believe.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, I see now where the problem lies. If you
20 look at the Albanian version, Mr. Kearney, and that's the one shown to the
21 witness -- could we go back to the first page of this document.
22 You see the problem.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Which is now a translation from English into
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's 23rd of April, 2007; whereas, the
1 English original says 23rd of April, 2006.
2 MR. KEARNEY: That's a -- in this case, Your Honours, the Albanian
3 version is correct. What happened is -- perhaps I can ask the witness to
4 take his headphones off if the Court would prefer.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you take off your earphones for a second.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.
7 JUDGE ORIE: I thought this was the consolidated new statement.
8 MR. KEARNEY: It is, Your Honour. What happened is this witness
9 made an earlier statement in 2002.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. KEARNEY: These nine paragraphs were taken from them almost
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.. They are excerpts rather than anything else.
14 MR. KEARNEY: Yes. And then this week, he was shown those nine
15 paragraphs and asked to sign, again. In the English translation of the
16 document that was made just this week, the date on the front of the
17 translation of the document says "2006," when it should have said "2007."
18 The Albanian is correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. KEARNEY: I can ask him some more questions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you can please clarify that with him. Of
22 course, I now better understand why he says it was quite some time ago,
23 because the text he gave was quite some time ago, although it was
24 confirmed or renewed this week.
25 Please proceed.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
4 MR. KEARNEY:
5 Q. Witness 29, the text of the document you have in front of you,
6 those paragraphs was information given to you -- or given by you to the
7 Office of the Prosecutor back some time ago, in 2002. Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 Q. But just this week, two days ago, we took part of that initial
10 statement you gave and put it into this smaller document and had you sign
11 it two days ago. Is that correct?
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Or three days ago.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure whether it was two or
14 three days ago, but I know that we made a small intervention. I was given
15 the opportunity to read the statement again.
16 MR. KEARNEY: All right.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
18 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour, I stand corrected.
19 Q. In any event, two or three days ago when you signed this new
20 statement, you read it again and did you, before you signed it, confirm
21 that it was accurate?
22 A. Yes. I read it; and after I read it, I signed it.
23 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honours, I would, at this point, tender this
24 document, if I may.
25 JUDGE ORIE: We have heard already from the Defence that there's
1 no objection; therefore, the document is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. KEARNEY: And, Your Honours, I have it -- sorry.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P263,
4 under seal.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
7 MR. KEARNEY: And, Your Honours, obviously, that matter is under
8 seal. Is that right? That document?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Madam Registrar said that already.
10 MR. KEARNEY: And with the Court's permission, I have a short
11 summary of those paragraphs that I would be prepared to read into the
12 record at this time. I've given counsel a copy of that this morning.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It is important that it will be read, but let's
14 not spend time on it at this very moment. It's to inform the public, but
15 that could be done on a later stage. Please proceed.
16 MR. KEARNEY:
17 Q. Witness 29, I would now like to get into your testimony if we may,
18 and, specifically, I want to talk to you about your knowledge of the
19 FARK's activities in 1998. And I'd like to ask you, first, as a starting
20 point: Were you a member of the FARK in 1998?
21 A. Yes, I was a member.
22 Q. Now, you've told us in your statement that you were a common
23 soldier, but did you have any special duties within the FARK army in 1998?
24 A. During 1998, I was a simple soldier, but at the same time I also
25 had duties that were not the duties of a simple soldier. The people I
1 worked with during 1998 were all superior officers who had military
2 academy formation, and they tasked me with some duties.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask the Defence if it is not about actually
4 what the witness saw, et cetera, but about his position, whether there's
5 any objection against leading?
6 MR. EMMERSON: No.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, in a certain area, leading will not find
8 any objection. Please proceed.
9 MR. KEARNEY:
10 Q. And those commanders that you had contact with were Sali Ceku and
11 Tahir Zemaj. Is that a fair statement?
12 A. Yes. Yes, of course.
13 Q. What special duties did Mr. Ceku and Mr. Zemaj give to you during
15 A. In the beginning of 1998, I can't remember the exact date now, I
16 was given the duty to go from Albania to Kosovo several times to see what
17 the situation was like; then later I was given other duties as well.
18 Q. Now, these entries that you made into Kosovo to see what the
19 situation was like, that was before the formal entry of the FARK into
20 Kosovo. Is that a fair statement?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Just so we know a time-frame, what was the entry date of the
23 FARK -- the formal entry date of the FARK into Kosovo in 1998, please?
24 A. As far as I know, it was the 25th and the 26th; of course, as I
25 say, as far as I remember, because I can't be a hundred per cent sure
1 about the dates.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon. The 25th and 26th of which month?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 25th and 26th of June. It was June,
4 if I'm not mistaken.
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
6 MR. KEARNEY:
7 Q. You said that before that June entry date of the FARK into Kosovo,
8 you were tasked to see what the situation in Kosovo was like. Could you
9 please expand on that. What specifically were you -- you looking to see
10 at that time?
11 A. At that time I went there to see what the situation was like.
12 Later on, when some movements of the KLA started, we were interested to
13 know how the things were developing, how ready the population was to
14 defend themselves, and if it was a situation where we could fight.
15 Q. How many of these entries into Kosovo did you make before the main
16 body of the FARK entered Kosovo?
17 A. I entered approximately ten times, maybe more, but I'm sure about
18 ten times.
19 Q. How long would these trips last typically?
20 A. It depended how long the trip would take. Sometimes the journey
21 took three to ten days. It depended on the circumstances.
22 Q. Would you go by yourself or with other FARK soldiers?
23 A. On some occasions, I took two or three of my comrades with me.
24 Sometimes I also went alone. It depended on the task I was given.
25 Q. And these ten visits we're talking about in 1998, over what span
1 of time were they, sir? When did you begin making these entries into
2 Kosovo and -- let me ask that date. When did you begin making these
3 entries into Kosovo?
4 A. The first time was in January 1998. The last time was, if I'm not
5 mistaken, a few days before we entered with the FARK forces in Kosovo, but
6 I'm not sure how many days earlier than that.
7 Q. What zone of Kosovo were you entering during that period of time?
8 Where were you focusing your efforts?
9 A. Usually in some villages of the municipality of Gjakove and in the
10 municipality of Decane. It was impossible to visit all the villages.
11 Q. You indicated earlier that you were assessing in part the KLA.
12 Were you also assessing Serb activity in the area during that period of
14 A. Yes. If I was able to assess their movements, of course, it would
15 be a very good thing; but it was very difficult for me to assess them.
16 Q. And why was that?
17 A. It was difficult because at the time the KLA had started its own
18 movements, and also the Army of Yugoslavia had started its own movements.
19 So it was very difficult for me to enter in areas where the JNA dominated.
20 That's why I mainly moved in the areas where the KLA was in control.
21 Q. What area were those that the KLA was in control, and please tell
22 us -- give us a time reference if you can of the statements you're making
23 now. You said you began going into Kosovo in January, and you continued
24 making trips all the way up through June. This last question I asked you
25 about areas of KLA dominance. Please tell us, when you tell us where,
1 tell us also when, what time-period you're talking about.
2 A. In the beginning - I'm speaking about January 1998 - the KLA had
3 not emerged yet, and the Army of Yugoslavia was not openly operating. It
4 was only the police that was operating. So it was easier for me to go
5 from village to village, and even the other citizens could move more
6 freely; then later on, the KLA emerged, the situation exacerbated between
7 the KLA and the Serb forces. And that's why my movements became even more
8 difficult. Also the movements of the population became more difficult.
9 Q. And, again, Witness 29, please tell us what time-frame you're
10 talking about. When you say the KLA emerged and the situation between
11 they and the Serb forces exacerbated, what time-frame are you referring
13 A. I'm referring, if I'm not wrong, to the period from 24th of March
14 onwards; and then the KLA appeared, as I said, and the circumstances
15 changed. I always want to emphasise the fact that I might make some
16 mistakes on the-- about the dates.
17 Q. Now, you indicated earlier that you noticed in your travels
18 through Kosovo in early 1998 that there were -- or in 1998 that there were
19 areas of KLA domination. I want to ask you: After March 24th, after
20 their emergence in your mind, what were the areas of KLA domination that
21 you encountered yourself during your travels?
22 A. Before March, as I said, the KLA was not present. After March,
23 there were some villages where it dominated, some others which were free
24 in the sense of there were no enemy forces or large KLA forces. Only some
25 preparations for self-defense by the peasants were underway.
1 Q. What were the villages where you noticed KLA dominance after March
2 24th of 1998?
3 A. After March 1998, initially, it appeared in Gllogjan, if I'm not
4 mistaken; and then, gradually, it started to spread out mostly in the
5 Decane villages. But I cannot be very certain as to its appearance and to
6 what village it did so.
7 Q. During your trips - I want to confine my time-frame now between
8 March 24th, 1998, and the end of June 1998, when the FARK forces entered
9 Kosovo - during that period of time, what villages do you remember going
10 to where there was a KLA presence or a KLA domination, as you referred to
12 A. After the 24th of March that we are talking about, initially, as I
13 said, it emerged in Gllogjan village and then in all the villages --
14 almost all the villages of Decane commune. In some villages more; in some
15 villages less. I can't specify where it was more present. But beginning
16 from the 24th of March, as I said, it emerged in Gllogjan and all its
17 villages, and after that in Gjakove.
18 Q. Now, in your 2002 statement, Witness 29, you list specific
19 villages that you visited during this time-period. I'm just going to read
20 those to you. I'm going to ask you, first of all, these were villages you
21 actually did visit during that time-frame between March and June of 1998.
22 The first one was Smolice. Did you visit that village during that
24 A. Yes, I did. Once I crossed the border, that's the first village
25 that you run into.
1 Q. Then you listed Ponashec, P-o-n-a-s-h-e-c?
2 A. Yes. Ponashec, too, lies next to the border.
3 Q. Then you visited Racaj?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Junik?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. Herec?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Gramaqel?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Gllogjan?
12 A. True.
13 Q. Rznic?
14 A. True.
15 Q. Luka?
16 A. Yes, that's true.
17 Q. Did you notice a KLA dominance in any or all of those villages
18 during the time-period between March and June of 1998?
19 A. Yes. In these villages and in many other villages that I visited,
20 there was a KLA dominance, while the enemy forces moved along the main
22 Q. During your movement among these villages during this time-period,
23 did you notice KLA activity in these villages?
24 A. At that time it was the beginning. I mostly saw armed people;
25 some of them being without uniforms, some being in uniform. As I said,
1 they were kind of preparations to form the army; then I contacted some
2 representatives of the villages. Those people told me they were the
3 senior people in the village. I wished to meet them and talk to them,
4 but I also talked with ordinary soldiers --
5 Q. When --
6 A. -- because, in my opinion, all were equal.
7 Q. When you say senior people -- you talked to senior people in the
8 villages, are you referring to senior people within the KLA?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. What were the -- these senior people in the villages, what were
11 they called or what did you refer to them to? Were they village
12 commanders? Were they officers? Were they soldiers? How did you refer
13 to them?
14 A. In some villages, it was a representative of the village or, if I
15 might say, the commander of the village. In some villages, there was a
16 commander for all of them. So there were different, let's say,
18 Q. These village commanders or these KLA village commanders, when did
19 they start -- in your own experience, when did they start appearing in
20 these villages? When did you start noticing that activity?
21 A. Always, if I am right, after the 24th of March, and kept growing
22 and spreading out every day.
23 Q. As you travelled at the village level through villages in the
24 Dukadjin area between March and June of 1998, was it your habit routinely
25 to make contact with the KLA village commanders in these villages?
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I'm going to -- I'm going to object to the
2 issue of whether it was habit. He can tell us what he did and how he -
3 excuse me, sir --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- and how he proceeded. But what his habit was
6 at this juncture I think is a bit much.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Guy-Smith, you could ask for a habit by
8 just rephrasing that question: Did you usually go there or did you at all
9 times. So therefore it is a minor issue.
10 Mr. Kearney, you may proceed.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: My only concern is how one treats a habit evidence
12 at a later point in time.
13 MR. KEARNEY: I can rephrase the question, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
15 MR. KEARNEY:
16 Q. Was it your usual practice -- did you usually make contact with
17 KLA village commanders during this time-period when you entered villages
18 in the Dukadjin Zone?
19 A. Yes. I tried to make as many contacts as I possibly could with
21 Q. Why was that, Witness 29?
22 A. Because I wished to get the right idea of the situation, of the
23 current situation then.
24 Q. And when you say a "right idea of the current situation," what do
25 you mean by that?
1 A. By this I mean that I wished to meet them, but it was also part of
2 my duty given to me by my superior people, because we wanted to get to --
3 to have a very clear and correct idea of the situation of what was going
4 on. For this, we needed to meet the -- what were called then commanders
5 of the villages.
6 Q. During these discussions with the village -- the KLA village
7 commanders and soldiers, did you learn who the overall KLA commander was
8 for that region at that time?
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Or maybe before that, if there was an overall
10 commander; and then if yes, who it was.
11 MR. KEARNEY: Certainly. Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Witness 29, let me rephrase that question. During this
13 time-period, between March 24th and late June of 1998, in your discussions
14 with both KLA soldiers and village commanders, did you learn if there was
15 a KLA overall commander for the Dukadjini Zone?
16 A. Yes. Not the entire Dukagjin Zone was in a state of war, but most
17 of Decane commune and part of Gjakove municipality. But each and every
18 one were saying that Ramush Haradinaj was the overall commander.
19 Q. Was Ramush Haradinaj someone who was known to you, Witness 29, at
20 that time?
21 A. Yes, I knew him -- would you please repeat the question, if you
23 Q. Certainly. When you started hearing that the overall commander
24 was Ramush Haradinaj during that time-period in 1998, I just want to ask
25 you simply: Before that time, before 1998, did you know who that was?
1 A. Yes, I knew him since a long time ago. I used to know
2 Mr. Haradinaj since we -- since when we were ten or 12 years old.
3 Q. And how was it you knew him?
4 A. We know Mr. Haradinaj. We -- our villages were close to each
5 other. Besides that, we went to the same school. I wouldn't say that we
6 were classmates, but we were going to the same school. We lived very
7 close to each other and we used to see each other, sometimes talk with
8 each other.
9 Q. How many years -- first of all, what was the age difference or
10 what is the age difference between you and Mr. Haradinaj?
11 A. To tell you the truth, I am older than him, maybe two, three years
12 older. I wouldn't say that I'm older than three years; two or three, I
14 Q. Did you attend the same schools when you were growing up?
15 A. Yes, yes. And we had good social relationship. We weren't very
16 close friends, maybe because I was a little bit older. We were not in the
17 same class, but each had his own close friends.
18 Q. How many years did you attend the same schools together?
19 A. With Mr. Haradinaj, we went to the same school for eight years to
20 what we referred to as the primary school or the low-cycle school, and
21 then two years in the high school; and then Mr. Haradinaj went to another
22 place. I went somewhere else. I don't know anymore what happened with
23 him after that.
24 Q. So during those ten-year period when you went to the same schools
25 together, how often would you see him? Was it a daily basis? A weekly
1 basis? A monthly basis? Please tell us about that.
2 A. Listen, please. Sometimes we saw him several times a day,
3 sometimes once a week, but the fact is that we were in the same school.
4 We were neighbours and we met sometimes, as I said, a couple of times a
5 day; sometimes once a day; sometimes -- sometimes a week. But I -- we did
6 know each other very well. So we are, I would say, kind of friends.
7 Q. Did you also know his brother Daut?
8 A. Yes. Yes, I did know Daut, too. I knew some of his brothers but
9 not all of them.
10 Q. Witness 29, I now want to move back to the entry of the FARK into
11 Kosovo. You said that this occurred in late June of 1998. I believe you
12 told us it was either the 24th or 26th of June.
13 Am I stating that correctly?
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: 25th or 26th.
15 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Q. The 25th or 26th of June. First of all, is that date correct?
17 A. Can I answer your question?
18 Q. Yes, please.
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon. Actually, it was the 25th and 26th that
20 was how it was said.
21 MR. KEARNEY:
22 Q. Witness 29, do you have the question in mind?
23 A. Yes. The date when the FARK forces left the barracks, it was the
24 24th. They stayed for one day in the Tropoja Mountains during the 25th;
25 and in the evening of the 25th, after darkness fell, they left towards
1 Kosova. On the 26th, we entered Kosova; that is, the 26th found us in
2 Kosova because it was past midnight.
3 Q. Describe the size of the force, please, if you will.
4 A. I wouldn't be able to give you accurate figures because it was not
5 part of my duty to count them; but when we entered Kosova, I think we were
6 about -- from 120 to 150 soldiers, including 21 officers; that is, the
7 number was from 120 to 150.
8 Q. Can you describe for us the armament that you brought with you
9 when you came into Kosovo?
10 A. We had not heavy weapons. We had, I think, what we described as
11 Kalashnikov rifles. Our senior officers had a pistol, the soldiers had
12 automatic guns; then we had some other weapons, but not heavy weapons
13 because we were walking on foot, and it was impossible for us to carry
14 heavy weapons. We were a large number of soldiers and officers, and the
15 commanders didn't want us to carry these weapons by animals.
16 First, the decision was for us to enter Kosova and then transport
17 heavier weapons afterwards. And each of the soldiers and officers had his
18 personal equipment, the munitions of the weapon itself.
19 Q. Were you in uniform?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And, Witness 29, what was your purpose in entering Kosovo? Who
22 were you going to fight?
23 A. It was clear that we entered Kosova to stand up for our people, to
24 defend them from the enemy, from the Serbian forces.
25 Q. Now, did you go to a particular village when you first entered
2 A. On the 26th, in the morning, we arrived in Jasic village, and the
3 villagers warmly welcomed us. They provided us with some rooms in some
4 private homes, and then we settled there for a while, rested, and so on.
5 Q. After the FARK's arrival in Jasic, were you visited by Ramush
7 A. Yes. I'm not certain as to when. It was a couple of hours later
8 of the same day. Maybe after three, four hours Mr. Haradinaj came,
9 together with four or five other officers. He visited us, he entered
10 inside, and he talked with our officers.
11 Q. Did you recognise any of the other officers that Mr. Haradinaj
12 came with?
13 A. Yes, Mr. Haradinaj and another officer, whose name was Maloku.
14 I'm not sure about his pseudonym, but I had met him before in Tirana, had
15 a coffee with him, so I knew him as Mr. Naim Maloku. Mr. Maloku is a
16 career officer. He has graduated from the military academy, as far as I
18 Q. Which military academy was that, please?
19 A. When I say the "military academy," I mean the Defence Academy, as
20 it was called then, not the police academy. At least this is how I knew
21 its name was.
22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Defence Academy, where?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the former Yugoslavia. We didn't
24 have any police academy in Kosova, so they would be either in Sarajevo or
25 in some other cities of the former Yugoslavia; in Belgrade or in Zagreb,
1 Ljubljana. I'm not sure.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
3 MR. KEARNEY:
4 Q. Were you present when Mr. Haradinaj came to Jasic that first day
5 that the FARK arrived there?
6 A. No. I was in Jasic but not in the very room where officers sat.
7 And when he came, Mr. Haradinaj came with his officers and talked with our
9 Q. Did you hear anything that was said in that room?
10 MR. EMMERSON: I'm so sorry. Before the witness answers --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Afterwards, yes, because everything
12 that was said --
13 MR. EMMERSON: I think --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. EMMERSON: He was just about to carry on. Just so we're
16 clear, the question, "did you hear anything that was said in the room," is
17 ambiguous. In other words, did you hear it or did you hear later about
18 what was said when someone told you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know if it's ambiguous. From the answer of
20 the witness, at least, it appears that he clearly distinguished between
21 hearing at the moment, but we'll ask him to answer the question. But I'm
22 not a native speaker, Mr. Emmerson, I have to admit that. I think the
23 witness -- could you please repeat your answer.
24 You said: "Afterwards, yes," and then you said "because
25 everything that was said," and then you were interrupted. Please complete
1 your answer.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer it now?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In answer to the question made of
5 me, I tried to give an answer. During the time Mr. Haradinaj came there,
6 along with his accompanying officers, he didn't come to meet the
7 soldiers. He came to meet with the officers. The soldiers were
8 accommodated in three private houses; whereas, the officers were in
9 another house. Every soba room for men has an antechamber. Some people
10 were sitting in this antechamber and some were inside.
11 Mr. Haradinaj came to meet the officers. I could not go there and
12 sit with them and talk. It was not my right to do that.
13 JUDGE ORIE: But you started saying something about what you heard
14 afterwards. Do I understand your answer that you were not able to hear
15 the conversation that took place between Mr. Haradinaj and your
16 commanders, but that you learned about it later; if so, please tell us
17 what you learned about it?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is true. That's why I
19 said it was none of my duty to have anything to do with him.
20 Mr. Haradinaj talked with our commanders, and then we learned of talk that
21 had gone on among them; Mr. Haradinaj and our officers.
22 MR. KEARNEY:
23 Q. And what was that talk? Please tell us what was said.
24 A. I will try to tell here what I heard because I wasn't present.
25 Mr. Haradinaj had told our officers that, You are not welcome here. You
1 can go back to where you came from. Kosova doesn't need you. You must go
2 back immediately. If you don't, we will do this and that to you.
3 It wasn't a good meeting. We expected quite another sort of
4 meeting. And among what he told our officers was, If you don't go back to
5 where you came from, we can fight together, but we are not going to fight
6 the enemy. First, we are going to fight you.
7 Q. You said the words: "If you don't -- if you don't go back
8 immediately, we will do this and that to you."
9 What exactly, if you know, did Mr. Haradinaj say to your leaders
10 during that meeting?
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, the witness can't know that. All the
12 witness can do is relate the hearsay that was made.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he said --
15 JUDGE ORIE: -- Guy-Smith, isn't it perfectly clear that whatever
16 the witness tells us now is hearsay. So we would not understand it any
17 other way, in view of the earlier answers of the witness. And I think
18 it -- this objection or this comment really does not add to the -- does
19 not assist the Chamber in better understanding the testimony.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I appreciate the Chamber's comment, but the
21 question, as framed, certainly doesn't do it either, and it confuses the
22 issue. And if the question is made to the witness --
23 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is not confused by the way the question
24 was put.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
1 MR. KEARNEY:
2 Q. Witness 29, when you said earlier that Mr. Haradinaj said: "If
3 you don't go back immediately, we will do this and that to you," can you
4 be more specific. What do you mean by the words "this and that"?
5 A. Please, I was trying to be brief. That's why I said that. During
6 the meeting between Mr. Haradinaj and Mr. Tahir Zemaj and other officers,
7 what was said was that, You don't need to come to Kosova. You have go
8 back where you came from. Kosova doesn't need you. Kosova doesn't need
9 the armed forces of the Republic of Kosovo or FARK. If you don't go back,
10 we will fight you. We will not fight the enemy. We will leave the enemy,
11 and we will fight you.
12 So what I understood by that is that they would fight us; and
13 then, if they had time, they would fight the enemy.
14 Q. Witness 29, in your 2002 statement to the Office of the
15 Prosecution --
16 MR. KEARNEY: Counsel, this is at page 5, paragraph 5.
17 Q. -- you say that, and I'm quoting now from your statement to OTP:
18 "Mr. Haradinaj said: 'If you don't go, we'll kill you all.'"
19 Is that an accurate quote of your memory of what Mr. Haradinaj
21 A. I'm sorry --
22 JUDGE ORIE: One second.
23 Mr. Kearney, I take it that you intended to ask the witness
24 whether that was an accurate quote of his memory of what he was told about
25 what Mr. Haradinaj said?
1 MR. KEARNEY: That's true and I stand corrected, and I'll rephrase
2 that question.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Just before Mr. Kearney does and leaving that issue
5 of clarification to the side for the moment. As a general proposition,
6 I'm not sure about the propriety of the practice of putting to a witness
7 being called by the Prosecution passages from his statement that are not
8 in a 92 ter form, unless we are in either a memory-refreshing situation or
9 a hostile-witness situation.
10 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, this is a situation where this witness
11 did make this statement now almost five years ago. It's a quote from his
12 statement. I'm simply presenting it to him and seeing if it refreshes his
13 memory as to what was said.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Whether you have already sufficiently explored
15 whether, without this refreshment of the memory, this evidence could be
16 elicited is certainly subject to doubt. So therefore, would you please be
17 cautious in this respect.
18 MR. KEARNEY: I will.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
20 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.
21 Q. Witness 29, those words that I just stated to you from your 2002
22 statement, do they refresh your memory as to what you were told
23 Mr. Haradinaj said during this meeting in Jasic in 1998?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 I think, Mr. Guy-Smith --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please, please --
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: There is no indication that the witness's memory
3 needs to be refreshed. The witness has testified precisely as to what he
4 recalls the statement; and if it is not being used for that purpose, then
5 it is being used for purposes of impeachment, which raises the question
6 that Mr. Emmerson raised a moment ago.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, if I can respond very briefly. We
9 started this inquiry because the witness said "this and that."
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. KEARNEY: Obviously, the words "this and that" were not spoken
12 by Mr. Haradinaj back in 1998. I'm just simply trying to specify.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I think what the Defence emphasises is that
14 there's no problem with further specification, but that should be done,
15 first of all, by asking the witness -- let me just check exactly what the
16 course of the answers were. One second, please.
17 Yes, Mr. Kearney. You asked specification of the "this and that."
18 The witness answered that question, but it appears that you think he could
19 say more about it; and without first exploring whether the witness could
20 add something to the specification he already gave, you immediately led
21 him to his 2002 statement where at that moment perhaps the appropriate
22 course of questioning would have been to further explore whether the
23 witness would like to add anything to what the specification he gave, the
24 specification being that they would fight the FARK rather than the enemy
25 at that moment.
1 But perhaps -- yes.
2 Witness, when you said that the gist of the conversation was
3 related to you as being that they, that is, Mr. Haradinaj's people, would
4 fight you first and only then the enemy, did they in any way specify on
5 how they would fight you? What would they do in fighting you? Was that
6 related to you?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us then in what terms, as you
9 understood, this was explained.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In relation to this, I was told that
11 if we did not go back to Albania, Mr. Haradinaj, together with his
12 officers and soldiers under his command, would fight us first and then the
13 Serb forces. With this I mean they would kill us all first and then fight
14 the enemy.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I think that this is more or less what
16 the Defence had in mind as the proper course of further exploring the
17 matter without already refreshing the memory of the witness. Of course, I
18 do not know to what extent the earlier attempt to refresh the memory has
19 influenced the answers of the witness, but this is at least perhaps the
20 proper way of examining the witness.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour. I'll move on.
23 Q. Witness 29, you said that you expected a different meeting earlier
24 between Mr. Haradinaj and your leadership. What did you mean by that?
25 A. Not only me, but everybody, the officers and the soldiers were
1 looking forward to meeting the other soldiers and talking to them. It was
2 unbelievable the way that they welcomed us. We thought that they would
3 cooperate with us and do the same as the village of Jasic did. That was
4 completely the opposite of what we expected.
5 Q. As a result of this visit by Mr. Haradinaj, did the FARK forces
6 leave the village of Jasic?
7 A. The FARK forces, of course, had to leave because we had come to
8 Kosovo to do something else, not to fight with Mr. Haradinaj. That's why
9 we tried to avoid a conflict or a bloodshed between brothers.
10 Q. Where did you go?
11 A. In the beginning, I think the army remained there for a week,
12 maybe seven or eight days, and then we had to arrange for another place, a
13 safer place to go. Mr. Tahir Zemaj and Commander Ceku discussed this
14 amongst each other and decided that we had to go to another village in
15 order to avoid conflict with Mr. Haradinaj. So myself, Mr. Ceku, and a
16 couple of other soldiers, we went looking for a safer village - if I could
17 call it that - in order to avoid the bloodshed with Mr. Haradinaj. And we
18 were able to find four houses in the village of Izniq in Decani
20 We then told Mr. Zemaj by telephone, satellite telephone, that we
21 had found a place. We were helped immensely by the people in the Izniq
22 village, the representatives of the village. So after we spoke with
23 Mr. Zemaj, we -- it was decided that all the soldiers would come in the
24 direction of Pacaj village. And myself and Sali Ceku and the two soldiers
25 who were with us, we would wait for them Pacaj; and then together we would
1 go to the village of Isniq.
2 This was the movement that was expected to happen because there
3 was no other way. We wanted to avoid the worst.
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can I interrupt and ask. The village of Isniq,
5 how do you spell that village, with I-s or I-r?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course. It's I-s-n-i-q,
7 where we were stationed.
8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you very much.
9 MR. KEARNEY: And Your Honour makes a good point. My next
10 question was going to be:
11 Q. Is this a different village than Irzniq?
12 A. No. These are two different villages. There is a village called
13 Irzniq and the other is Isniq. These are two villages in the same
14 municipality, and I said we settled in the village of Isniq.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could the witness also tell us where we find
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The village of Pacaj, if I
18 understood your question correctly, this village is close to the main road
19 Peje-Gjakove-Decane, but it is in the territory of the municipality of
20 Gjakove. I mean the main road Decane-Gjakove divides Heric from Pacaj.
21 That is the road I mean. But, however, this is a village in the
22 municipality of Gjakove.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
24 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.
25 Q. Witness 29, after you moved to Isniq, were you at some point given
1 an assignment involving this village you've been talking about of Pacaj?
2 A. Please, if you could repeat the question, because it's not clear
3 to me. As I said, from Pacaj, we went to Isniq. If you mean after we
4 went to Isniq, yes, I can give you an answer.
5 Q. Yes. I'm referring specifically to now the 4th of July of 1998,
6 if that helps you. On that date, did you leave the village of Isniq and
7 go somewhere or attempt to go somewhere?
8 A. Yes. With regard to the 4th of July, if I'm not mistaken, so the
9 4th of July, Mr. Tahir Zemaj -- I'm sorry. I think I overlooked something
10 that I have to say. While we went to Isniq, two officers remained there,
11 Agim Ramadani and Rrustem Berisha, with three soldiers. And during our
12 stay in Isniq, we were in contact with Mr. Berisha and Mr. Ramadani - I
13 mean the officers were - and we were told that some weaponry had come from
14 Albania to Jasic. Whether it had arrived or was expected to arrived, I
15 was not sure. So somebody had to go to Pacaj to await that consignment of
17 It was said that from Papaj, which is in Albania, the consignment
18 had arrived in Jasic, but then I would await for that consignment in
20 Q. Let me stop you there to catch up with you for a moment. You said
21 several names. These weapons that we're talking about, they came into
22 Kosovo from a village in Albania called Papaj, is that right, P-a-p-a-j?
23 A. Yes, Papaj.
24 Q. And they were headed into Kosovo into the village of Pacaj,
25 P-a-c-a-j. Is that correct as well?
1 A. Yes, via Jasic. The village of Papaj is in Albania; from Papaj,
2 the consignment would go to Jasic, then the people who brought the
3 consignment had to rest for a while. From Jasic, the consignment would be
4 transported to Pacaj, and we would await for the consignment there. It
5 was considered that Pacaj was a safer village because there were no Serb
6 forces in the area. However, we also wanted to avoid a conflict with KLA
7 and Mr. Haradinaj.
8 Q. And just --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness be asked
10 to speak more slowly, please.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, could you please slow down in your
12 answers because the interpreters have difficulties in following your speed
13 of speech.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
15 I must admit that Pacaj, I have not found it yet on any map,
16 although I tried hard.
17 MR. KEARNEY: And I was just going to ask a question which may
18 help the Trial Chambers in that regard.
19 Q. This village of Pacaj is south-west of the village of Jasic. Is
20 that correct?
21 A. The village of Pacaj, if you have a map, maybe I could help you
22 more; however, the main road Decane-Gjakove divides the village of Pacaj
23 with the village of Heric. It goes between these villages. If you go
24 from Decani to Gjakove, Heric is on the left side and Pacaj on the right
25 side of the road.
1 JUDGE ORIE: I found it. Thank you.
2 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. So Witness 29, on the 4th of July, 1998, you were given the task
4 to travel from Isniq to Papaj [sic] to pick up weapons. Is that correct?
5 A. Please, because these names are similar to each other and may be
6 confused, my task was to go to Pacaj and not Papaj. The same way we
7 confused Irzniq and Isniq.
8 Q. And I stand corrected. My apologies to both the witness and the
9 Trial Chambers.
10 In any event, please tell us how you made that journey and who you
11 made it with, please.
12 A. On the 4th of July, 1998, Commander Zemaj and Commander Ceku
13 invited me to go to their room, where they were staying, and told me to go
14 to the village of Pacaj to await this consignment of weapons that was
15 coming from Albania. Mr. Ceku wanted to come with me as well, but I did
16 not think it was appropriate for him to come because every movement of our
17 senior officers, Mr. Zemaj, Mr. Ceku, was probably not safe for them.
18 That's why I didn't want them to come with me. And Mr. Ceku agreed not to
19 come and told me to choose three soldiers to go with me on this
21 I became a kind of person responsible for that task, that
22 assignment. I was not a commander, just the person responsible. I was
23 given three soldiers. I decided on the soldiers myself. Can I give the
24 name, or do you think it's not proper to give the name now?
25 Q. Please do.
1 A. The soldier was called Idriz Ukehaxhaj from Carrabreg in the
2 municipality of Decane, and he also owned a car, a small car. I don't
3 know the make, I can't remember now, but it was his own property, his
4 private car. I asked this Ukehaxhaj to come and speak with me. I thought
5 that it would be easier for us to move through those villages by his car,
6 and Ukehaxhaj agreed.
7 I also needed two other soldiers, and I told Ukehaxhaj, "Could you
8 go and get two other soldiers?" He went, got two soldiers. One was
9 called Petrit Lokaj. He was from the village of Poberxhe in the Decane
10 municipality. I think now he lives in the town of Decane. The other,
11 Azem Gashi, is from Peje municipality. And we all agreed to travel
12 together to go on this assignment.
13 Towards the evening hours, Idriz went and got his car. In the
14 meantime, one of the owners of one of the houses where we were staying
15 said that he wanted to come with us because he wanted to visit his
16 daughter in the village of Junik and wanted to see how she was. Of
17 course, it was wartime and everybody wanted to see how their people were.
18 We had room in the car so we told him that he could come. We also asked
19 his officers whether he could and they said yes. So we started, we set
21 Q. Let me stop you there. You indicated that it was not safe for
22 Commander Ceku -- or in your opinion, it was not safe for Commander Ceku
23 to travel. Why was that? Why was it not safe for him to travel, in your
25 A. Well, the movement involved a risk from the village where we were
1 to the other village. The situation was not stable. We wanted to avoid
2 the conflict with Mr. Haradinaj. We thought that we would have a friendly
3 talk with Mr. Haradinaj, and I thought that I myself could have such a
4 friendly talk with Mr. Haradinaj, rather than the officer, because we had
5 been friends. We had been neighbours, brothers I would say.
6 Q. So your fear for the safety of Mr. Ceku came from Mr. Haradinaj.
7 Is that a fair statement?
8 A. Maybe I have to give briefer answers. The whole problem was we
9 didn't want something to happen to us from Mr. Haradinaj. We didn't want
10 to risk anybody's life from Mr. Haradinaj and the soldiers of
11 Mr. Haradinaj. And because I thought I knew Mr. Haradinaj very well, I
12 had met him during my visits to Kosovo, I thought I could talk with him.
13 And I thought it would be better if I was responsible for that journey.
14 Q. I want to ask you just a follow-up question to what you just said.
15 We talked at length about your ten trips into Kosovo in 1998 before the
16 formal entry of the FARK forces. During some of those visits, did you
17 actually meet with Mr. Haradinaj?
18 A. Yes. There was one case when I met Mr. Haradinaj. We talked with
19 each other. It was a very friendly, brotherly conversation. We discussed
20 several things about the situation. He told me, Things are going like
21 this. Maybe in the future we will be even better prepared.
22 It was a very good meeting.
23 Q. Do you know what date that meeting was? What time it was?
24 A. I can't be very sure. That's why I don't want to give you dates,
25 accurate dates. Although, I can't remember it. Maybe Mr. Haradinaj can
1 help us with that date.
2 Q. Can you tell us if it was before March 24th or after March 24th?
3 A. It was after the 24th of March, but I can't give you an exact
4 date. I don't want to give you a date and then find out that it wasn't
5 the right date.
6 Q. Do you remember where the meeting itself was?
7 A. If I'm not mistaken, we met in the birthplace of Mr. Haradinaj.
8 Q. And can you tell us where that is, please.
9 A. His native village is Gllogjan village in the municipality of
11 Q. And you said you discussed things during this meeting with
12 Mr. Haradinaj. Do you remember what specifically it was that you
14 A. I'm not sure, but we discussed about the things that we were
15 preparing over there, that things were going well. We were waiting for
16 the moment when we would enter Kosova, and Mr. Haradinaj agreed. And when
17 we parted with each other, we were two people who were very close to each
18 other parting with each other.
19 Q. When you said you were -- you discussed the moment when you were
20 waiting to enter Kosova, are you referring to when the FARK forces would
21 enter Kosovo?
22 A. Yes, yes. I told him that preparations are underway and that soon
23 we would -- that the armed forces of the Republic of Kosova, albeit FARK,
24 would enter Kosova. We will join our forces. We will fight the enemy
25 together, and he welcomed these conversations, seemed to be very content
1 with it, at least that's my impression of it.
2 Q. During this conversation you had with him, did he state what his
3 rank was? What his position was at that time? Did you know what it was?
4 Can you tell us anything about that, please?
5 A. No, no. This -- another time there were no ranks but he was a
6 commander because with us in Kosova -- to us, ranks are the ranks given to
7 you when you are a professional officer, when you are in an academy, or
8 so. Maybe he has. I apologise to him if he has, but to me he was a
9 commander. But I don't know if he had ranks; of this, I'm not certain.
10 However, I knew him as a co-villager and as a commander.
11 Q. I want to move back now, if we may, to the 4th of July of 1998,
12 and I want to ask you what time of day was it that you set out with these
13 other three FARK soldiers you described and the civilian in
14 Mr. Ukehaxhaj's car?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Kearney, I see that we're now moving back
16 to the 4th of July. I'm looking at the clock. Perhaps that might be a
17 moment for a break, and then after the break we could continue with the
18 4th of July.
19 We'll have a break until 11.00.
20 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
21 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, you may proceed.
23 The Chamber would like to give as a guidance to the parties, that,
24 of course, it's highly appreciated if the parties draw the attention to
25 the Chamber of risks of confusion; at the same time, sometimes if there is
1 a small risk of confusion, first of all, it does not always materialise.
2 Second, if there's confusion, of course, the Chamber, unlike a
3 member of a jury, could easily try to clarify what might confuse them.
4 So, therefore, this is not to tell the parties, Don't draw our attention
5 to confusion, but don't do it too quickly, and perhaps now and then rely
6 on the abilities of this Chamber to have confusion moved aside.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have -- I certainly have not been moving quickly
8 and the confusion, less of a concern is the confusion of the Chamber and
9 more is the concern of the confusion of the record.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The record always reflects what is said, so
11 there could be no confusion. But this is just that I hope the parties got
12 the message.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
14 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. Witness 29, when we left off you, were just leaving on your --
16 from Isniq on your trip to Pacaj to get the weapons. I want to ask you:
17 During that journey after you left Isniq, did you come to a stop in any
18 village along your way?
19 A. Yes. After we left Isniq village, we passed through several
20 villages and stopped at the village. I can tell you the name of the
21 village, if you want.
22 Q. Please do.
23 A. We stopped at Irzniq village.
24 Q. Why did you stop there?
25 A. We stopped there for two reasons: One was that I had to get a
1 military uniform, and the other was that the person who was with us, not
2 the soldier, wanted to buy something for his grandson whom he wanted to
3 visit at his daughter's house.
4 Q. When you arrived at Irzniq, was there a KLA presence in the town?
5 A. Yes. But even along the way, we saw members of the KLA. But also
6 in Irzniq village when we stopped the car, I left in the direction of the
7 place where I was supposed to get the uniform; whereas, that person with
8 the three soldiers remained in the store to have something to drink and to
9 buy what he wanted to buy.
10 I went to the village command in the meantime, and the
11 commander -- there was a commander of the village, whose name was Maxhun
12 Cekaj. He was responsible for the village. He was also a reserve major
13 in the Yugoslav Army. I got a paper, a piece of paper, from him to make
14 things easier for me on the way, and then I left to get the uniform.
15 In the meantime, we met Mr. Haradinaj in the centre of Irzniq
16 village. Mr. Haradinaj just arrived in a four-wheel-drive, a big car. He
17 was accompanied by Togeri, who was most known at that time, and he stopped
18 the car nearby our car. He stopped. It was quite normal act. He lowered
19 his window. I did the same. We talked.
20 I can't relate here exactly what we said verbatim, but the most
21 important thing was that he said, "It's good to see you. When you are in
22 Kosova, we will see each other. We will talk."
23 That's it. To me, I took it as a normal occurrence, as in fact I
24 expected him to behave.
25 Q. Can I stop you there for a moment, please. You said the village
1 commander was a gentleman you knew to be a reserve major in the Yugoslav
2 Army. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. Did he have any, to your knowledge, professional background or
5 training in the military or in defence studies?
6 A. I don't know. I can't be precise, 100 per cent precise, but I
7 know he was a major, not an active officer in the Yugoslav Army. There
8 was a part of the Yugoslav Army described as reservists or territorial
9 defence forces, which were organised on the level of municipality in
10 Kosova but I think also in Yugoslavia.
11 Q. And yet on this day, the 4th of July, 1998, he was a village
12 commander for the KLA. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes. I'm talking about Maxhun Cekaj, the commander of the
15 Q. You said you received from him some kind of document. Is that
16 correct? Can you please tell us what that was?
17 A. At that time, we described it as a document, but in fact it was a
18 piece of paper, handwritten. It didn't have any kind of letterhead or
19 something like this. It was a piece of paper; whereby, I was, in this
20 case, authorised, name and last name given, to travel from Irzniq village
21 to Pacaj village to get a shipment of arms. And along with him there are
22 also three other soldiers, things like this.
23 It was a paper that I might show in places where we deemed it
24 appropriate to make our passage easier by means of such a document. It
25 was not an order, per se, but it was a handwritten paper.
1 Q. Now, you said sometime after that Mr. Haradinaj and a gentleman
2 named Togeri arrived in a vehicle. This person that you called Togeri, do
3 you know his real name?
4 A. They didn't come to our car; but when I was going to the place to
5 get the uniform, Mr. Haradinaj and Togeri stopped their car - so maybe
6 this is the right description - then Mr. Haradinaj stopped the car,
7 lowered the window. He was driving the car, and he was accompanied by
8 Togeri, who was the person we knew most. Idriz Balaj is his name. I
9 don't know where he came from, but not from Decane municipality.
10 JUDGE ORIE: The question put to you was simply whether you would
11 know the real name of the person you called Togeri. Could you please
12 focus your answers exactly on the question. If Mr. Kearney would like to
13 know more, he'll certainly ask you.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. KEARNEY:
16 Q. Had you seen this person, Togeri, or Idriz Balaj, before this
17 date, on July 4th of 1998?
18 A. I had seen him two or three times, but he was known all over by
19 the name of Togeri, by the pseudonym. I had met him, yes, two or three
20 times before. I had not talked with him. I just had seen him in the
21 street moving about.
22 Q. And when you say that in the vehicle with him was Mr. Haradinaj,
23 you're talking about Ramush Haradinaj. Is that correct?
24 A. I mean Mr. Ramush Haradinaj, yes. He was on the driver's seat.
25 He was driving, but he was accompanied by Togeri. At the moment that he
1 spoke -- that he stopped the car - if I can go on - he didn't speak.
2 Q. Please go on. Do you want to finish your answer.
3 A. If I can, yes. Then I greeted him, he greeted me. He said, It's
4 good that you are here. And he said what I mentioned earlier. We parted
5 our ways. He went his way. I went to the place I was supposed to gather
6 the uniform; then after a couple of minutes - I can't be precise - I got
7 the information that at the place where I had left the soldiers,
8 Mr. Haradinaj had gone there, not Ramush Haradinaj, but Daut Haradinaj.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I hate to interject, but really, at this point,
10 there's no question pending. The witness has moved on to a narrative
11 answer with regard to what he was doing that way. If that's a way the
12 Chamber chooses to proceed, so be it; but I think it causes a series of
13 difficulties in terms of knowing what's going on.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I already earlier tried to -- I tried to
15 keep the witness closer to the question.
16 So, Witness, would you please always carefully listen to the
17 question. It's not -- it might be important what you say, but it might
18 not be exactly what Mr. Kearney would like to hear from you as further
20 So please focus on the question and then, Mr. Kearney, you know
21 how to deal.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.
23 MR. KEARNEY: I do, Your Honour. I'm just mindful of the
24 time-limit, and that's why I was allowing the witness to proceed. But
25 I'll be mindful of the Trial Chamber's directions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, we do not know exactly what your
2 next questions are. So you are the one to be best able to see if the
3 witness gives further details, if he goes in the direction you would go
4 anyhow or whether it's something different.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. KEARNEY:
7 Q. You indicated at some point after you went to get your uniform,
8 you received some information that there was some trouble involving Daut
9 Haradinaj, is that correct; and if that's true, please tell us what that
10 trouble was, what you heard?
11 A. Yes, this is how it was.
12 Q. And what was it that you heard?
13 A. During the time, I was getting the uniform, one of the brothers
14 came and told me that two persons have come to that store. One is called
15 Daut Haradinaj, the other Togeri, Idriz Balaj, and they were trying to get
16 those persons I left at the store with them.
17 Q. The FARK soldiers, are those the persons you left at the store
18 you're referring to?
19 A. Yes, precisely those; the three soldiers, and the fourth person.
20 Q. After you received this information, did you go back to the store
22 A. I went immediately without losing any time. After two, three
23 minutes, four minutes, as fast as I could, I went there.
24 Q. Please tell us what happened when you got back to the store.
25 A. At the moment I arrived at the store, I saw Daut Haradinaj with
1 Togeri, Idriz Balaj, in two cars. Both were large vehicles, 4-by-4 as we
2 called them then, and they were threatening the soldiers to get them with
3 them in their cars.
4 Q. When you say "to get them with them," what do you mean? What were
5 they -- what was Mr. Balaj or Mr. Haradinaj saying to them that you're
6 referring to?
7 A. When I arrived there, both were in uniform; Mr. Haradinaj - I mean
8 Daut Haradinaj - and Balaj, Togeri. They were talking with the soldiers
9 and threatening them to get them into their car. I mean they wanted them
10 to -- to get into the car and to drive them to the place they had in mind.
11 Q. And did they say where it was they wanted to drive the FARK
13 A. When I went there and Daut saw me, he said, "You and them, both,
14 and all of them are going to come with us in our car, and we will take you
15 to the staff in Gllogjan village, to Ramush Haradinaj."
16 Q. What tone was this said in? Was this said in a friendly tone, a
17 hostile tone? Describe that for us, please.
18 A. Now, with the exception of the tone used by Mr. Ramush Haradinaj,
19 which was a very friendly tone; in this case, their tone was threatening,
20 very harsh tone. It was a very bad moment I would say.
21 Q. You said that Daut Haradinaj and Idriz Balaj were uniformed. Did
22 they have weapons as well?
23 A. Yes, they did. They had gotten out of their cars and had a pistol
24 on their belt and a knife on their chest, hanging on their chests. I
25 don't know how exactly that was placed in a belt, or I don't know what,
2 Q. Did either one of them use their weapons at that time?
3 A. At one moment, because they kept insisting for us to come along
4 with them into their cars and to take us to Gllogjan village, to Ramush
5 Haradinaj. And I refused with -- I didn't want to go with them because I
6 had already seen Mr. Haradinaj. I said, "Okay. I will come and meet
7 Mr. Haradinaj, but I will come with my own car."
8 Mr. Haradinaj took out his pistol and shot in the air, and it was
9 a threatening gesture, as if to force us to go into their cars, but I
10 did -- I refused. I said, "Okay, I'll come, but with my own car."
11 Q. Why did you not want to go in their car?
12 A. It was a moment that I didn't feel safe for myself and for the
13 others. So in these circumstances, I felt better to drive in my own car,
14 even though Haradinaj and Balaj insisted for us to come with them. So I
15 kept insisting on my own. They kept asking us to go with them. I mean
16 that I was afraid to go in their car. I felt more secure to travel in my
17 car myself and my friends -- for my friends.
18 Q. Did you show them the travel document you had received from the
19 KLA village commander?
20 A. Yes. I did show them the document I had obtained from the village
21 commander, Mr. Maxhun Cekaj, but Daut tore it up and invited that person
22 to come to the place where we were. He came there. Daut started to shout
23 to him, telling him, "Why have you provided them with this piece of paper
24 to these FARK soldiers. They have no place here. They should leave
25 Kosova. We will fight against them," and things like this. So he
1 threatened Maxhun Cekaj.
2 Q. Was Mr. Balaj saying anything during this period of time?
3 A. It was a very bad moment. Mr. Balaj brought out his pistol and
4 fired several times, five or six times maybe, and he did that to strike
5 fear among us, to force us to follow him, to do what he had planned to do
6 with us.
7 Q. Where did he fire these five or six shots?
8 A. Very close to us, in my presence, in the presence of Maxhun Cekaj,
9 and all the others. He was -- we were two or three metres apart from one
10 other in the middle of the village, to cut it short, but he didn't fire in
11 our direction, but in the air because he wanted to scare us and to order
12 us to get into their vehicles.
13 Q. At some point, did you go to Gllogjan that day?
14 A. Yes. Yes, certainly, after all we went. Mr. Daut Haradinaj left
15 first; Idriz Balaj after him; we were in the middle and we left to -- for
17 Q. So you went in three vehicles, Witness 29. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that's it.
19 Q. How long did it take you to get from Irzniq to Gllogjan?
20 A. I'm not very certain to give you minutes, but it's very close from
21 the place we were. I would say that the distance between the last
22 village -- the last house of one village and the first of the other
23 village might be two kilometres. It takes you five or ten minutes
24 driving. It depends on how fast you drive.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, this last question and the details we
1 received there, where the Chamber knows that it's two kilometres, does not
2 assist in any way to better understand the testimony. Of course, we have
3 seen the statement so, of course, if something would have happened on the
4 way that might be useful to ask about it. But isn't that totally
6 MR. KEARNEY: That's a point well taken.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
8 MR. KEARNEY:
9 Q. Where did you go when you got to Gllogjan, please?
10 A. When we arrived in Gllogjan, we were told to go to the staff of
11 Mr. Ramush Haradinaj. Once we arrived in front of the staff, Daut
12 Haradinaj parked his car in front of our car. We parked behind him. And
13 we were about 50 metres away from the entrance to the staff. Idriz Balaj
14 parked behind us. I mean that all the time we were in between two cars.
15 I got out of the car. I left my colleagues in the car. I left my weapon
16 there, Kalashnikov, and walked in the direction of the staff of Mr. Ramush
17 Haradinaj to meet him.
18 In the meantime, I don't know what Daut was doing, but as I said
19 he parked his car in front of us and we were obliged to stop. There was
20 nothing else we could do. There was a large number of soldiers
21 surrounding us.
22 Q. How many soldiers were there surrounding you?
23 A. I can't give you an accurate number, but there was a large number.
24 It was impossible for me to count them, and it didn't enter my mind to
25 count them, actually. If I can go on --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if the witness could tell us an approximate
3 I do understand you did not count them. Would you say there were
4 ten? 50? 200?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the village, there was a number
6 of soldiers; but in the staff of Mr. Ramush Haradinaj, I saw that he was
7 talking to a number of about 40, 50 soldiers lined up in two columns. And
8 from what I understood, he was addressing them as their commander. When
9 he saw me walking towards him, he told the soldiers, "Wait a little
10 because a friend of mine, my best friend, had come," and he came towards
12 MR. KEARNEY:
13 Q. These 40 to 50 soldiers that Ramush was addressing, were they
15 A. Yes, yes. Those who were there, they were uniformed. They were
16 lined, as I said, in two columns.
17 Q. At that time, did you have a conversation with Mr. Haradinaj, this
18 is Ramush Haradinaj?
19 A. Yes, we had a conversation. It was a very friendly, fraternal
20 conversation. I told him, "I came here because Daut Haradinaj and Togeri
21 came to Irzniq village to force us to come here to you." I showed to him
22 that I refused to travel in their car, and then I told him where I was
23 going and why I had gone there. And in the end Mr. Ramush Haradinaj said
24 to me that, "You and your soldiers," the soldiers who were with me, I
25 mean, "don't need to have any piece of paper. Nobody will prevent you.
1 You may be with three or 300 other soldiers. You are free to go wherever
2 you wish. Nobody can prevent you."
3 And I took it as a normal occurrence, of course, as things should
4 be. In fact, I expected this of him. We shook hands and I left. He
5 said, "You are free to go now."
6 Q. And did you begin to walk back to the car at that point?
7 A. At that point, the place where I had parked the car and the place
8 where I entered Mr. Haradinaj's staff, it was a distance of 20 metres. I
9 was walking on the direction of the car to continue our trip to Pacaj
10 village. In the meantime, Daut and Togeri came, and Idriz Balaj came, and
11 there was an exchange on the way. They went to Mr. Ramush Haradinaj and
12 talked with him. I don't know what they talked about.
13 And then Mr. Ramush Haradinaj changed his mind and told me, "Take
14 those" - by "those" I mean the soldiers who were with me - "and go back to
15 where you came from because there is a problem which might last -- before
16 it's resolved, a couple of days might pass day."
17 He didn't specify how many days they needed for that.
18 Q. When Ramush Haradinaj said those words to you: "Take those
19 soldiers and go back to where you came from," what tone of voice was that
20 said in?
21 A. Now things deteriorated. It was no longer the friendly tone we
22 used or he used before. It was now harsher.
23 Q. Tell us what happened then, please.
24 A. Then I walked in the direction of the car and told Idriz to get
25 into the car because we have to turn back to Irzniq village, because the
1 KLA under Ramush's command doesn't let us to go this way. We have to go
2 back. Idriz seemed perplexed because he didn't expect what happened. He
3 said, "Why? For what reason?" I said, "Come into the car because I have
4 to go back."
5 Can I continue?
6 Q. Yes. Tell us what happened then.
7 A. In the meantime, I was walking towards my car. Idriz wanted to
8 get into the car. Mr. Haradinaj -- both Haradinaj brothers and Balaj were
9 following behind me two, three metres away. And at the moment
10 Mr. Haradinaj said, "Get those and get lost." I said to Idriz, "Get into
11 the car." And then at that moment, Mr. Haradinaj came on my right side --
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Can we hear that once more.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that moment, if I can continue.
14 MR. KEARNEY:
15 Q. The Trial Chambers would like you to clarify your last answer
16 which was: "At that moment Mr. Haradinaj said, "Get those and" something.
17 We didn't understand what you said, Witness 29, could you repeat that last
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Including the answer, please, who said it,
20 Mr. Haradinaj.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer your question, Your
23 MR. KEARNEY:
24 Q. Yes, Witness 29.
25 MR. KEARNEY: I wonder with the Trial Chamber's permission from
1 here on out since there are two Haradinajs involved, Ramush and Daut.
2 Q. Instead of saying "Mr. Haradinaj," can you please use the first
4 A. Yes, I will. Can I continue now?
5 Q. Yes, please.
6 A. At that point, Mr. Ramush Haradinaj used this expression: "Get
7 lost." What can I say? "Go away. I don't want to lay eyes on you
8 anymore." And he was following behind me. And at the point he came on my
9 right side, and I saw him with his pistol in his right-hand. Idriz was
10 leaning on the side of -- on the front door of the car, and he was about
11 to enter the car.
12 At that moment, Ramush Haradinaj overtook me on my right side and
13 went to Idriz Ukehaxhaj. He had the pistol on his right hand, and on his
14 left hand was made like a fist. He had the pistol on the right and the
15 fisted left hand, and then he hit Idriz.
16 Q. May I stop you there for a moment.
17 MR. KEARNEY: Members of the Trial Chamber, the witness just made
18 a motion with his hands describing what he saw Ramush Haradinaj do to
19 Idriz Ukehaxhaj. And I would invite the members of the Trial Chamber,
20 does the Trial Chamber want me to describe that for the record? Does the
21 Trial Chamber want to do it themselves?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
23 MR. KEARNEY: The witness - and I invite Defence to correct me if
24 I'm wrong - the witness held both hands out in front of him with clenched
25 fists, and he moved his hands together in a partial clapping motion, I
1 would characterise it.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Shoulder high, approximately.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. KEARNEY:
5 Q. Did -- with that motion, Witness 29, did Ramush Haradinaj actually
6 hit Idriz Ukehaxhaj?
7 A. At that moment, Mr. Ramush Haradinaj hit him on both sides of his
8 face. On his right hand was the pistol. His left hand was clenched into
9 a fist, and he hit him on both sides of his face. And his face was
10 covered in blood, I mean Idriz Ukehaxhaj's face.
11 Q. Can you please describe for us the degree of force that you saw
12 Ramush Haradinaj use during the -- during that blow, please, if you can.
13 A. Please, I can't tell you the degree of force, but I can tell you
14 that it was a strong blow. You see, his face was covered in flood. So it
15 was quite a powerful hit, such a hit that covered his face in blood.
16 Q. And what had Idriz been doing at the time he was hit? Was he --
17 what was he doing when he was -- he received this blow?
18 A. Nothing. He was doing nothing. Please, what could he do? He
19 wasn't expecting that. I was very close to him, but I couldn't intervene
20 because everything happened in a very short time. Nobody was expecting
21 it. We never thought that such a thing would happen.
22 Q. After that first blow was struck by Ramush, did he continue to
23 administer more blows? Did the attack continue?
24 A. That was the first blow and, yes, it continued. At the same time,
25 Mr. Daut Haradinaj, Ramush's brother, and Balaj attacked the other
1 soldiers, Petrit and Azem, two soldiers, because Idriz was under Ramush at
2 the time.
3 Q. Please describe the attack for us, if you could.
4 A. It is a very difficult moment for me to describe a hundred per
5 cent. I'll try my best. At that time, the car was parked close to a
6 wall, and Idriz was attacked by Ramush on both sides of his face, while
7 Azem and Petrit were behind the car, close to the wall. At that moment,
8 Daut Haradinaj and Idriz Balaj attacked Petrit and Azem.
9 Everything happened in a couple of moments. They were attacked
10 physically, not in words, but they were beaten. They started hitting them
11 with pistols, punching them, and then there were other soldiers that
12 participated in the beating. It was a very ugly beating.
13 Q. What were the numbers of the KLA soldiers that were involved in
14 the beating? There was four of you, four FARK members. How many KLA were
15 there involved?
16 A. A number took part, but not all the soldiers that were in
17 Gllogjan. I could say maybe 20 or 30 took part in the beating. It was a
18 very powerful beating, but there were other soldiers who were there
19 present but seemed not to like what was happening, but they couldn't do
21 Q. Were you beaten yourself during this attack?
22 A. Yes, I was beaten as well.
23 Q. Please describe that for us.
24 A. I'll try. I was attacked from behind by Mr. Daut Haradinaj and
25 Mr. Balaj. The first time I received the blow, this was a blow on my head
1 with a gun, a pistol I think; and after that, other blows came, all sorts
2 of blows, punches with the butts of the guns, the Kalashnikovs. They used
3 them as sticks to beat us. And all kinds of other beatings on the body,
4 on the head. There was no part of our body that was not hit; both me and
5 the other three soldiers that were beaten at the same time.
6 Q. Were there any words spoken to you during this attack?
7 A. Yes. At the moment they started to beat us, they also were saying
8 things. Among the words that they said were, "We will kill you. We will
9 eliminate you, not only you but your commanders Sali Ceku and Tahir
10 Zemaj." They were offending us, calling us names, all kind of swear
11 words, our mothers and everything.
12 And one of them said, "Wait, we'll kill (redacted)." And at a certain
13 moment, Mr. Ramush Haradinaj said, "No, I'll kill him with my own hand,"
14 and he jumped on me from behind.
15 Q. This is Ramush who jumped on you from behind?
16 A. Yes. The first time it was Toger and Daut, his brother, Ramush's
17 brother; while the second time when these words were spoken, "Let's kill
18 (redacted)," Mr. Ramush Haradinaj said, "I'll kill him with my own hand,"
19 and he jumped on me from behind.
20 Q. After Ramush jumped on you from behind, what did he do to you, if
22 A. At that time, Ramush Haradinaj jumped on me from behind. There
23 was a moment when he had the pistol in his hand and wanted to kill me,
24 and I was in is certain position. I wasn't lying down, but I also wasn't
25 standing. I was trying to protect myself from him, from Mr. Haradinaj,
1 and suddenly I heard a gun-shot.
2 I didn't understand at the time that the bullet had hit me because
3 I was receiving other blows and my whole body was aching and was in pain.
4 So I didn't understand that I was hit, but there was a bullet.
5 Q. I want to stop you there for a moment, if I may. You said just a
6 moment ago, this is at line 12: "At that time, Ramush Haradinaj jumped on
7 me from behind. There was a moment when he had the pistol in his hand,
8 and he wanted to kill me."
9 Please describe that for us, you said: "There was a moment when
10 he had the pistol in his hand, and he wanted to kill me." What was he
11 doing with the pistol that makes you say that?
12 A. Please, Mr. Ramush Haradinaj. Everything was clear.
13 Mr. Haradinaj said himself that, "I will kill (redacted) with my own hand,"
14 and he came to me and I don't know what else to explain, how much more
15 clearly to explain, because he wanted to kill me. He jumped on me. Maybe
16 he had planned this. I don't know what else to say.
17 He jumped on me with a pistol against my shoulder or my neck, and
18 I was trying to protect myself as best I could, and then I heard the
19 gun-shot. I was hit on the right arm. The bullet entered the arm here
20 and then came out ten or 12 centimetres lower in the arm. I was trying,
21 as I said, to protect myself, not to allow him to do that; but still, a
22 bullet hit me and fortunately I did not die.
23 Q. I have to ask you this for the record. Who fired the bullet that
24 hit you in the shoulder?
25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Emmerson.
2 MR. EMMERSON: Put in that form, given the witness's evidence thus
3 far and indeed what is in the contents of his witness statement, that is
4 not a proper question.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You would say from whose weapon?
6 MR. EMMERSON: No. The witness's evidence at the moment --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. EMMERSON: -- and indeed his witness statement does not permit
9 a answer to that question in terms. What Mr. Kearney can properly do is
10 elicit the factual circumstances.
11 MR. KEARNEY: Which is exactly what I'm trying to do.
12 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. Perhaps the witness might just remove
13 his earphones for a moment.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Could you take your earphones off for a second.
16 MR. KEARNEY: My intent --
17 MR. EMMERSON: Can I just explain the objection before Mr. Kearney
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. EMMERSON: The witness statement makes it clear on its face
21 that the witness did not see which gun the bullet came from.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. EMMERSON: He draws certain inferences in his witness
24 statement, and in particular paragraph 7 on, I think, page 4, as to how
25 that might have occurred -- sorry, paragraph 7 on page 11, where he
1 describe there being a lot of weapons fired around him but drawing certain
2 inferences to the location of Mr. Haradinaj in respect of this incident.
3 And he expresses an opinion based on that.
4 But it is in my submission extremely important- and he's repeated
5 that many his evidence- than to rather to ask him a question who shot you,
6 when on the face of it --
7 JUDGE ORIE: I think the point is clear.
8 Mr. Kearney.
9 MR. KEARNEY: Yes, my intent was -- and, Your Honour, I am
10 operating under a very severe time-frame here.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. KEARNEY: And my intent was to ask him this question and ask
13 him why he says that. I'm very aware what was in the statement, and I'm
14 aware that Mr. Emmerson has a long time for cross-examination.
15 MR. EMMERSON: With respect, that is, in its present form, nothing
16 more than an opinion. What Mr. Kearney can properly do is --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, we do not know yet.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I'm in Your Honours' hands, of course. I
19 don't want to take time on an objection. But, with respect, the way the
20 evidence emerges both in writing and orally is that the witness saw,
21 heard, and felt certain things; and from those things, he drew
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, you are aware of the problems
24 Mr. Emmerson. Could you please rephrase your question. Keep in mind the
25 concerns of Mr. Emmerson, and then move on.
1 MR. KEARNEY: Of course, Your Honour.
2 Q. Witness 29, how was Ramush holding the gun in relation to your
3 body when you felt yourself being shot?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness does not have
5 his earphones on.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
8 MR. KEARNEY:
9 Q. I'm sorry. That was my mistake.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for assisting us.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. KEARNEY:
13 Q. Witness 29, how was Ramush holding the gun in relation to your
14 body immediately before you felt yourself being shot in the shoulder?
15 A. At that moment I was not lying down, but I was not standing. Can
16 I demonstrate, please? I'll try.
17 MR. KEARNEY: With the Court's permission.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. And be aware that we'll have to
19 describe that for the record what you are showing us.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One of my knees was almost on the
21 ground, and I was trying to defend myself, leaning -- most of my body was
22 leaning this way. I can't explain it properly. I was trying to protect
23 myself. He had his pistol here on my shoulder; and during the movement, I
24 heard the shot and the bullet came through the arm. The position -- it
25 was a very difficult position I was in. I couldn't do anything.
1 JUDGE ORIE: The witness moved in a way where he was kneeling down
2 with a twisted body, looking upwards with his body close to the ground.
3 Please proceed.
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And may I ask: The pistol was on your shoulder
5 you said. Would that mean it was at close range or touching the shoulder?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The pistol was against my neck at
7 the moment that he was saying, "I'll kill him with my own hand." And
8 because I was moving, he could not hit me on my neck and the bullet hit my
9 arm and not on the neck where he wanted to hit me.
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So you're describing the bullet hit you on your
11 right arm, close to the shoulder. Thank you.
12 MR. KEARNEY:
13 Q. When you're saying "he," this is -- when you said: "He could not
14 hit me on my neck," you're referring to Ramush. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, I'm referring to Ramush, exactly. He wanted to hit me on my
16 neck; but because of the movement that I was doing at the time, the bullet
17 did not hit me in my neck but on my right arm.
18 Q. Now, how long did this beating last, if you can tell us, please?
19 A. I cannot say how long. It started suddenly. It ended suddenly,
20 when they were satisfied. So both the starting moment and the ending
21 moment were sudden. At that time, I saw they were dragging the other
22 soldiers by their hair. Daut Haradinaj and Idriz Balaj were dragging them
23 by their hair and beating them at the same time. They were dragging them
24 towards the village Gllogjan --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, could I --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- towards the staff.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- ask one question.
3 Was the shot you heard when you were hit any different from what
4 you heard when others have used their weapons?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that the other shots were
6 stronger. At the time, when I heard this particular shot, I don't know
7 whether my ears were blocked or something, but I did not hear the same
8 kind of sound as the other sounds. I cannot explain it to you.
9 Everything was so sudden.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
11 MR. KEARNEY:
12 Q. You said that the attack stopped suddenly. Please tell us what
13 happened when it stopped. Was anything said to you at that time?
14 A. When the attack stopped, I saw Idriz, Petrit, and Azem being
15 dragged by their hair, by Daut and Balaj, and they were being beaten with
16 Kalashnikovs and with the butts of the pistols, also punching and so on.
17 They were dragging them towards the headquarters.
18 At that time, Ramush still had his pistol in his hand. He kept
19 that in his hand all the time, and he said to me, "You only got two
20 minutes to leave the village of Gllogjan. And walk straight, straight
21 ahead on the main road. You've got only two minutes to leave the
22 village," while the other soldiers were taken into the headquarters of the
23 Gllogjan village, Mr. Haradinaj's headquarters.
24 Q. And then did you then leave Gllogjan?
25 A. Then I left the -- the place where the event happened. We were
1 surrounded by soldiers at the time. I was allowed to leave. I was
2 walking; and about 150 metres away from that place, I took a turn and
3 walked through the village, which was kind of a yard. I was hiding there,
4 close to a wall. It was the yard of a house. I did not see any people
5 living there, so I don't know whether that place was lived in or not.
6 Q. You were told to walk away on the main road. Why did you not do
8 A. I did not do that because if I had followed the main road,
9 Mr. Haradinaj, Mr. Ramush Haradinaj, did not need to tell me, Go and
10 follow the main road. He could have just told me, Leave, go. So I
11 thought maybe he would kill me himself or order some of his subordinates
12 to kill me. That's why as soon as I left the place where all this
13 happened, I tried to avoid that risk. That's why I left and turned left.
14 Q. Did you eventually make it back to the FARK command?
15 A. Yes, after some time. I don't know how long I stayed there. I
16 walked about two kilometres to my village.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, from the question, you could learn that
18 Mr. Kearney might not be interested in all the details in how you got
19 back. So you got back to the FARK command.
20 Next question would be, Mr. Kearney?
21 MR. KEARNEY:
22 Q. When you got back to the --
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. -- FARK command, did you receive medical treatment for your
1 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask the Defence, on medical treatment and
2 follow-up, is there any problem with leading in that respect?
3 Then, Mr. Kearney, you could take the witness through the medical
4 department and leading him. Yes.
5 MR. EMMERSON: I have no objection to Mr. Kearney leading with
6 those issues, but I think there is no independent medical evidence
8 JUDGE ORIE: No. Of course, instead of asking all these questions
9 to him, but rather to take him through his statement.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
11 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, the one exhibit I do want to use during
12 this testimony is a photograph. It is 65 ter 1311. I'd like it shown, if
13 I may, to the witness.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And at the same time, if you want to hear any
15 details by the medical treatment, you can do that by leading, since the
16 Defence, and I see the other Defence joining, have no objections to that.
17 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the number for the next document
19 would be?
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P264,
21 marked for identification.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 Any objection against admission if it would be asked? Not.
24 Then if you tender it, Mr. Kearney, it will be admitted.
25 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.
1 Q. Witness 29, do you recognise the arm depicted in this photograph?
2 A. This is my arm, and this is the wound I received from
3 Mr. Haradinaj.
4 Q. The bullet that you were shot with, did it -- please tell us where
5 it entered your body and where it exited your body and show us -- tell us
6 what we are viewing here in this photograph?
7 A. Yes. The bullet entered the upper part of the arm and exited
8 here. The larger hole that you can see here is the exit point. The
9 smaller hole is the entry point.
10 MR. KEARNEY: Members of the Trial Chamber, we have two other
11 photographs here. Does the Trial Chambers want me to go into those, or
12 should I move on?
13 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what's on the photographs; but if it is
14 similar, then I don't think there's any dispute about that there may be an
15 entrance and an exit bullet-hole on the arm of this witness because that's
16 what the photo shows.
17 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I ask to be clear about these two holes. I
18 see one, this is unambiguous, which is, well, in the middle of the upper
19 rather. It seems to be rather to the front side.
20 MR. KEARNEY: And, Your Honour, that's a point well taken. We do
21 have another photograph I think shows the entry and the shoulder and the
22 exit as well.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Please, I would like to see that.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, of course, it's common knowledge that the entry
25 holes usually are the smaller ones and the exit holes are the bigger ones.
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Just to show the exact location.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please show the next photograph.
3 MR. KEARNEY: Do we show --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I think we need your assistance.
5 MR. KEARNEY: This is 65 ter number 840 -- I'm sorry. It's 311 --
6 1311, page 3.
7 Q. Witness 29, do you recognise the photograph being shown now on the
9 A. Yes. It's the same photograph, but there is a ruler here showing
10 the distance between the two. At 0, you can see the entry point; and at
11 approximately 10 centimetres, the exit point.
12 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber's sufficiently informed about the wounds,
13 Mr. Kearney. Please proceed.
14 MR. KEARNEY:
15 Q. And beyond just the bullet wound in your arm, describe very
16 briefly for us, please, your other injuries.
17 A. No. I do not have other wounds because I was not hit by other
18 bullets. Those were just the results of beatings, then I recovered from
19 those bruises.
20 Q. Did you ever see your three colleagues again after you left
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, would be leading in as far as "the
23 others" is concerned, would that find any objection or Mr. Guy-Smith or
24 Mr. --
25 MR. EMMERSON: Within reason, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. KEARNEY:
3 Q. Witness 29, I would like to ask you again, did you ever --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, shall we ask him: Did you see the
5 others that were with you in hospital later?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw them about three hours later.
7 I can't be very precise.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us in general terms what their
9 condition was.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in an extremely bad state.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell us what made them to be in a
12 bad state, without too much details.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were badly beaten. Their heads
14 were bandaged. They didn't feel well. They felt very weak. They could
15 hardly stand. Azem Gashi had received a bullet injury also. It was a
16 very, very bad situation. They had great pains. Their heads was covered
17 in bandages.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
19 MR. KEARNEY:
20 Q. Did Mr. Gashi tell you how it was he came to be shot in the foot?
21 A. No, only that he had a bullet wound in his right leg, if I'm not
22 mistaken. But the entire situation was very bad. We didn't know what to
23 say to each other. Each of us started to recount what had happened to
24 him, how they had experienced it, and so on.
25 Q. Did your colleagues tell you what had happened to them after they
1 were dragged off by the hair towards the headquarters?
2 A. Yes, they did. They were beaten also inside, then they were
3 brought outside. They had been -- all their clothes had been taken off.
4 They were left only in their underwear, and all the time being beaten;
5 then they were ordered to run from Gllogjan village in the direction of
6 Irzniq until to Kodrali, in front of the car.
7 While they were firing their weapons in the ground, while they
8 were ordered to run, they were firing left and right to force them to run
9 under these circumstances, even though they were badly beaten and weak and
10 could hardly walk.
11 Q. Did they tell you who it was that were firing their weapons at
12 them at this period?
13 A. They told me that from Gllogjan to Kodrali, Daut Haradinaj and
14 Idriz Balaj were firing their weapons. This is what they told me. And
15 they also said that when they arrived in Irzniq village, there was a
16 command called the Black Eagles under Idriz Balaj's command, and they were
17 beaten there, too. They kept firing, and they kept running to Kodrali
18 almost all the time until almost naked.
19 Q. I now, Witness 29, want to move on to my last area of
21 MR. KEARNEY: I want to, with the Trial Chamber's permission,
22 advance to the 10th of July, a few days later, to the village of Prapaqan.
23 Q. I want to ask you if in that village on that date you saw Ramush
24 Haradinaj again?
25 A. Yes. I saw him again on the 10th. Mr. Ramush Haradinaj,
1 accompanied by Rrustem Teta and Idriz Balaj and a group of about 30 men,
2 all soldiers - I'm not sure about the exact number - came to our command
3 in Prapaqan.
4 Q. These soldiers, what unit were they, if you know?
5 A. They were dressed in black uniforms. They were called special
6 unit or black uniforms. They had two names, I think: Black Eagles and
7 Special Unit.
8 Q. I want to ask you how specifically Ramush Haradinaj and Idriz
9 Balaj were dressed on that date?
10 A. Both were dressed in black uniforms, like the others, and they
11 lined the soldiers in front of our command post.
12 Q. And what happened when these soldiers came to your command post on
13 that date?
14 A. They came and lined the soldiers in front of -- lined up the
15 soldiers in front of the building, and then they invited Tahir Zemaj and
16 Sali Ceku, telling them to flee from Prapaqan in 30 minutes. They had
17 only -- they were given only 30 minutes' time.
18 Q. Now, did you hear this yourself, Witness 29?
19 A. Yes, I was very close.
20 Q. And did either Mr. Ceku or Mr. Zemaj respond when they were told
21 by Ramush that they had 30 minutes to leave?
22 A. Both asked him, "Why?" Because it was an ultimatum to leave the
23 place in 30 minutes. They were taken by surprise and asked why they had
24 to leave.
25 Q. And did Ramush respond when they asked him why?
1 A. He -- at that moment, Ramush raised his automatic rifle up and
2 fired in the air, and he said, "Five minutes have passed, so you have only
3 25 minutes left," after firing several times in the air.
4 Q. At some point after that, did those men or did one or both of
5 those men leave Kosovo?
6 A. After this incident, one evening, not many more days after the --
7 the few days, Sali Ceku came and I was sleeping, and he said to me, "Wake
8 up. We have to leave Kosova, all of us, because they will kill all of
10 Q. And did you then leave Kosovo?
11 A. We got up, prepared ourselves, talked with Commander Zemaj, and he
12 said, "We must leave tonight." And he gave us another instruction: "If
13 the situation doesn't change, I too will leave, because we haven't come
14 here to kill each other."
15 Q. Do you remember what date it was that you finally left Kosovo,
17 A. To my recollection, I may make mistakes regarding the dates, but I
18 think it was around the 17th. I think it is -- actually, I think it was
20 Q. That was 17th of July, 1998; is that right?
21 A. Yes, 17th of July, 1998. It was 11.00, 12.00, around midnight
22 when that happened.
23 Q. Witness 29, thank you.
24 MR. KEARNEY: Members of the Trial Chamber, thank you. I have no
25 further questions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kearney.
2 Mr. Emmerson, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
3 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I am. And I want to if I may --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, you'll now be cross-examined by
5 Mr. Emmerson, who's counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
6 MR. EMMERSON: With Your Honour's permission, I want to ask one or
7 two questions at the outset about the notes issue and move on to the
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
11 Q. Witness 29, you told us yesterday that during 1998 you made a
12 series of personal notes on separate sheets of paper about incidents that
13 happened to you. Is that right?
14 A. Yes. We had to keep notes of -- note of everything, but I
15 reported it to the commander, to show him also the notes.
16 Q. And you also told us yesterday that when you compiled the blue
17 notebook that you brought with you to court, you had those notes in your
18 possession and copied notes directly into the notebook. Is that correct?
19 A. I must be clear about one thing. Some of the notes that we kept
20 at that time, we submitted to the command. Sometimes the commanders took
21 them in the form we gave them; but when it had to do with some problems
22 affecting me or whatever I did, one copy I handed to the commanders -- I
23 showed it to the commander or kept the copy with me. So sometimes we gave
24 them the notes, and sometimes we kept the notes -- I kept the notes.
25 Q. But, Witness 29, when you compiled the blue notebook you brought
1 with you to court, you told us yesterday that you compiled that from notes
2 that were still in your possession at the time you copied those notes into
3 the notebook. Is that right?
4 A. I didn't have any reason to keep notes about anything other than
5 real events, so the dates correspond to the events, just being transferred
6 from one paper to another. This is what I brought.
7 Q. Please listen carefully to the question and please answer it. Is
8 it correct that the entries in the blue notebook are all entries that you
9 copied from individual pieces of paper that you recorded at the time of
10 the events they describe?
11 A. I couldn't keep track of all cases and everything. I just tried
12 to keep record of the dates, because sometimes I don't need to keep -- to
13 describe the events in writing because I remembered them very well.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, the question is whether what you wrote
15 down in that notebook is just a copy of the text you find on these pieces
16 of paper where you made your notes, whether you added anything, whether
17 it's the same, whether it's less. Is it the same? You are nodding.
18 Could you please respond, for the record.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing is added, sir. Nothing is
20 missing. Everything was copied as it actually was.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
23 MR. EMMERSON:
24 Q. And that happened -- that process happened sometime in the last
25 six weeks, Witness 29. Is that correct?
1 A. This process started and developed gradually. Even yesterday, I
2 said it lasted for about one month and a half. It started after the date
3 I gave some notes to the gentleman and some copies of the notes, then
4 gradually I started to copy them from these pieces of paper to the
5 notebook. But I cannot tell you it's one week, two weeks, one month,
6 three months. But after the event I gave them, the representatives of the
7 office, some copies of these notes.
8 Q. Listen carefully. You told us yesterday you'd had the notebook
9 for only one and a half months, that is, six weeks. So it must follow,
10 mustn't it, that you copied the notes into the notebook sometime over the
11 last six weeks?
12 A. I said "approximately." I didn't say the exact date. I always
13 say "approximately." By this I mean it may be six, seven, eight weeks. I
14 cannot be precise. Were I certain, I would have told you.
15 Q. That's fine. Sometime in the last eight weeks let's say. So it
16 must follow, you had all those original pieces of paper in your possession
17 within the last eight weeks. Is that right?
18 A. Yes, the overwhelming majority of them, yes, of all the events.
19 But, of course, I copied everything because I couldn't copy something
20 without having the original.
21 Q. And how many of those notes have you since destroyed?
22 A. I cannot say how many, but one of them may be still with me. Some
23 I have discarded, and some are still with me.
24 Q. Did you destroy most of them?
25 A. Sometimes I may have destroyed something unintentionally, because
1 I didn't think at that moment that it might be of use to me. And I
2 thought that since I copied it in the notebook from the original, maybe I
3 don't need it anymore.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, the question was what percentage, more or
5 less. So not whether you did it intentionally, but was it four out of
6 five or was it just two out of five that you destroyed. I mean,
7 proportions. Did you destroy most of them or ...
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Let's say if I had ten, I have
9 destroyed three or four; however, most of them are still there today --
10 even today.
11 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.
12 Please proceed.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking always approximately.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
15 Q. And you've been requested to provide those notes to the
16 Prosecution I think on three separate occasions. Is that right?
17 A. I didn't understand the question. Can you repeat it, please.
18 Q. Yes. Let me put it to you specifically. On the 28th of August,
19 last year, the Prosecution contacted you and asked you whether you were
20 prepared to supply notes to the Defence and you said that you were not;
21 and then again in early September, the Prosecution asked you if you were
22 prepared to provide your original notes to them, and you refused to
23 provide them to the Prosecution and said you didn't want to meet to
24 discuss the matter with the Prosecution at that time; and then in December
25 of last year, you provided certain notes, which are different from the
1 notes in your notebook; and then in January, the Prosecution contacted you
2 again and asked you to look for any other notes and provide the original
3 notes to the Prosecution. That is the suggestion.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Before you answer that question.
6 Mr. Kearney.
7 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, this question is severely compound. I
8 don't know how -- I would ask that it be broken up. This witness is being
9 asked to comment on four separate subject matters in one question.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 Mr. Emmerson, perhaps you briefly take the witness end-of-August
12 request to provide them to the Defence and seek an answer to that.
13 Is that correct, that you were asked to provide the notes to the
14 Defence in August last year?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember the dates exactly
16 because time is passing by; however, I do remember that several times I
17 was asked to give these notes or personal notes, but I refused because I
18 didn't want to put myself in -- at risk from Mr. Haradinaj, because I was
19 certain that everything I would give them, his Defence would be notified,
20 and I wouldn't feel secure and safe.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it is true that once you refused to give the
22 notes to the Defence, then you were asked to give the notes to the
23 Prosecution. You refused that as well?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Some representatives of the
25 Tribunal - I don't know if they were Prosecutors or Defence lawyers - but
1 several times I refused to give them the notes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
3 MR. EMMERSON:
4 Q. And then, finally, in January of this year, you were specifically
5 asked to make sure that you looked for all notes and brought the originals
6 to the Tribunal, weren't you?
7 A. All these questions aim at one question. I think I gave a clear
8 answer. I told you: I promise that I will bring them.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, please respond to the question. What the
10 aim of the questions is not a question is whether you had would then --
11 let me just look at the question again: "You were specifically asked then
12 to make sure that you looked for all notes and brought the originals to
13 the Tribunal," whether that was asked in January.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not certain about the time. I
15 think it was -- maybe it was in January. I promise to give them, the
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
19 MR. EMMERSON:
20 Q. Why did you then destroy the originals after promising to bring
21 them, of any of the documents?
22 MR. KEARNEY: I believe that misstates his testimony. He is
23 implying that the instruction happened after the January meeting.
24 MR. EMMERSON: I think it is clear that it did, and I'll lay the
25 foundation for it, because the witness says he copied them into his
1 notebook within the last eight weeks.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Objection overruled.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. EMMERSON:
5 Q. Can you explain why in those circumstances you chose to destroy
6 some of the notes?
7 A. I already said, some I have destroyed, but the overwhelming part
8 of them are still there. So it is still possible.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, the question simply is: You were invited
10 to look for all of the notes and to bring them. Later on you started
11 copying them, and you destroyed part of them. The question is: Why did
12 you destroy them where it must have been clear to you that the originals
13 were to be taken to The Hague?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I already told you. I didn't intend
15 to destroy them. It was unintentional. I didn't know you needed these
16 scraps of paper, these pieces of paper. Of course, it would have been
17 easier for me to bring all those pieces of paper than to sit down and copy
18 them in a notebook. For me, what mattered were the dates, the accurate
19 dates of events. How can I say?
20 I didn't think that it was more important to keep a piece of paper
21 than a whole notebook; however, as I said, most of them do exist, even
22 now. But I never -- it never occurred to me that it was necessary to
23 bring them here.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.
25 MR. EMMERSON:
1 Q. Witness 29, on the first page of the notebook that you've
2 produced, you refer to various incidents that took place on the 3rd and
3 the 5th of June of 1998, and you list the names of people. And when
4 referring to yourself, you refer to yourself in the third person; in other
5 words, you put your whole name down (redacted)
6 MR. EMMERSON: I'm so sorry. I do apologise. We'll redact the
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
9 MR. EMMERSON:
10 Q. You put your full name down in the notebook.
11 MR. EMMERSON: It's been redacted.
12 Q. Now, Witness 29, if these are notes that you were making for your
13 own recollection at the time, why would you write your own name in full in
14 that way?
15 A. Sometimes it's only my signature; sometimes it's my name, (redacted)
17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's turn into private session in order to avoid
18 further risks, and a further redaction will be made.
19 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
7 MR. EMMERSON:
8 Q. Witness 29, I want to now move now to the events you've described
9 on the 4th of July, just to explain the direction of the questions I'm
10 going to ask you. I'm going to ask you, first of all, some questions
11 about that particular incident that you've described, and then I'm going
12 to ask you some more questions about FARK generally and about the
13 description you've given of the problems that existed between the FARK and
14 the KLA under Ramush Haradinaj.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, we are close at where we usually have a
16 break, if you have a few short introductory questions, that's fine; if
17 not, not to interrupt the 4th of July events.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Take the break now.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll have the break now and we'll resume
20 at a quarter to 1.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 12.53 p.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Emmerson, Mr. Kearney, if we would get the
24 consent of the interpreters and the technicians, as far as courtrooms are
25 concerned, we could continue until quarter past 2.00, but of course I'm in
1 their hands. The urgency, of course, is that tomorrow is a non-hearing
2 day. We'll then not sit for next week, and that's so if we could have the
3 consent of the technicians and interpreters, I got the consent of two
4 Trial Chambers, which would need a late start this afternoon. I see
5 nodding yes. It makes me very happy. Thank you very much.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you, Your Honour very much as well.
8 JUDGE ORIE: And then I take it that if -- Mr. Kearney, do you
9 expect -- well, of course I'm not going to ask you whether there will be
10 many questions in re-examination, but at least there should be some time
11 left for re-examination as well.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's start now without further delay.
14 Please proceed.
15 MR. EMMERSON:
16 Q. Witness 29, I'm going to suggest to you that the account that you
17 have given to the Trial Chamber about the incident that occurred on the
18 4th of July contains a number of quite deliberate lies on your part. And
19 there are two aspects of your account in particular that I want to explore
20 with you briefly.
21 First of all, the question of motive. If I've understood it
22 correctly, you're saying that Ramush Haradinaj attacked your colleague
23 Idriz Ukehaxhaj for no reason at all, in an entirely unprovoked attack.
24 Is that right?
25 A. Could you repeat the question, please.
1 Q. Yes. Your evidence is that Ramush Haradinaj attacked your
2 colleague Idriz Ukehaxhaj for no reason at all in an entirely unprovoked
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. And this was a man you'd known when you were younger. Is that
7 A. You mean Mr. Ramush Haradinaj?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Of course, we knew each other.
10 Q. You'd known him when you were younger, and you had seen him in the
11 first half of 1998 when you'd come in to discuss soldiers who would join
12 in the conflict in Kosovo. He had been very pleased to welcome you at
13 that point. Is that right?
14 A. Yes. There was a very friendly meeting at the time.
15 Q. And the commander of Irzniq, you've told us, was a man called
16 Maxhun Cekaj. Is that right?
17 A. Yes, he was. Now he's dead.
18 Q. Yes.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Could we go into private session for just one
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
18 MR. EMMERSON:
19 Q. And you were wearing a uniform, is that right, on this occasion?
20 A. Which occasion are you talking about? Could you speak more
22 Q. On the 4th of July, when you were in Gllogjan, you had picked up a
23 uniform, you told us I think, from Irzniq. Is that not right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And were the other three men with you wearing uniforms as well?
1 A. Yes. They had uniforms. I had a uniform. We all had uniforms of
2 the army.
3 Q. And was there a patch on the arm of that uniform?
4 A. Most of the soldiers at that time, both in Prapaqan and soldiers
5 of Mr. Haradinaj, did not have patches. But we were part of the army;
6 both Mr. Haradinaj's part and the part that was under Tahir Zemaj's
7 control. Some of them did have patches, but some soldiers did not.
8 Q. And the four of you, did you have patches with insignia on your
10 A. No. No, I didn't. I'm not sure about them, but I don't believe
11 they had patches.
12 Q. And the other soldiers of the army that you were with, what were
13 the patches on their arms -- what did they say?
14 A. The same patches as Mr. Haradinaj's soldiers had. We did not have
15 different patches.
16 Q. You had UCK patches on your arms, generally, didn't you, in that
17 group of soldiers?
18 A. Please. Almost all had the patches of the KLA, but some of the
19 FARK were also members of the KLA. They were all together. There was
20 nothing wrong with that.
21 Q. There was a very close relationship between them. Is that right?
22 A. We had a close relationship and we expected for that to go on, and
23 we never expected what happened with Mr. Haradinaj.
24 Q. I'll come to what happened, generally, with your entry into Kosovo
25 in a little while. But just so that the Judges understand, there was no
1 separate FARK uniform. FARK soldiers wore KLA uniforms and badges
2 generally. You'll agree with that, I think?
3 A. Please. The uniforms changed because -- were different because
4 they came from different parts of the world; however, most of the
5 soldiers, both those under the command of Mr. Haradinaj and those under
6 the command of Tahir Zemaj, used the same badge. They were all part of
7 the same force.
8 Q. They were all part of the KLA?
9 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I'm going to object at this time. I
10 wonder if my colleague could specify what time he's referring to during
11 these questions.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
14 Q. When you came into Kosovo on the 24th of June, the soldiers that
15 came with you, any of them that wore patches wore KLA patches, didn't
17 A. When we entered Kosovo, we entered with the flag of our brigade;
18 and on the flag, there was the emblem of the KLA. There was an eagle in
19 the middle of the flag, and there were two hands; one saying "F," which is
20 the letter F, which was the FARK, and the other one, the other part of the
21 army. We were a brigade.
22 Q. And just to be clear, those soldiers that had patches and insignia
23 on their arms and on their caps had the UCK insignia, didn't they?
24 A. There were some who had those patches, but not all. For example,
25 I did not have that patch myself, but that did not stop me for being part
1 of -- from being part of the army.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please carefully listen to the question,
3 because Mr. Emmerson now two, three, or four times asked you whether
4 patches were worn by your soldiers, if they wore any patches, if these
5 were KLA patches. Is my understanding that that was the case correct?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm trying to answer the question.
7 I said that there were some who had the KLA patches because the senior
8 representatives of the army had agreed upon that.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. "Why" is a different question. "Whether they
10 all had" is also a different question. But those who were wearing patches
11 were wearing KLA patches. That's well understood now I think.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
13 MR. EMMERSON:
14 Q. So you'd had a very helpful meeting with Mr. Haradinaj in the
15 early part of 1998. You say you saw him on the 4th of July in Irzniq, and
16 he was very pleasant to you, is that correct? He greeted you as a friend?
17 A. Yes, exactly.
18 Q. And you claim you went inside the headquarters, and he greeted you
19 as a friend there, too?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then suddenly, for no reason, he attacked your colleague. Is
22 that right?
23 A. Yes, that's what happened.
24 Q. I suggest to you that the account you've given of this incident is
25 not true. Let me move on to another respect, and then I'll put to you
1 specifically what I suggest is the truth about this incident. Could you
2 be provided with the yellow file, please?
3 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honours have the yellow file. I'm dealing
4 with it this way simply for speed. Can I indicate that I currently do not
5 anticipate any new exhibits being brought into the system as a result of
6 this file, but some of the documents are already exhibits and the index
7 should indicate which are.
8 Q. Witness 29, behind tab 1 in this file is the statement you made in
10 MR. EMMERSON: And for Your Honours, I'm going to look at page 11
11 of the English version.
12 Q. And for you, Witness 29, if you turn to the second half of the
13 documents behind tab 1, you'll see that there is an Albanian translation
14 of your witness statement. And if you could turn, please, to the last two
15 paragraphs on page 15, I'm going to ask you some questions.
16 MR. EMMERSON: So if the usher can find page 15.
17 Q. I'm going to ask you some questions about the last two paragraphs
18 on page 15, and the first two paragraphs on page 16.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Which for Your Honours are the last four paragraphs
20 on page 11 from the words: "I heard shots being fired," down to the end
21 of page 11.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you aware that some of the text here might
23 ask for private session? That was remained unnoticed during the first
25 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
1 JUDGE ORIE: If we look at page 11, fourth paragraph from the
2 bottom, the third word from the end of that line.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry.
4 JUDGE ORIE: That has been overlooked.
5 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I see.
6 Q. In those four paragraphs, you set out the account that you've
7 given us of how you say you sustained your injury. I just want to ask you
8 one or two questions first of all. Is it right, as you say in the first
9 of those four paragraphs, and in the first sentence of that paragraph, the
10 first three words, that shots were being fired by other people during this
11 incident, that there were generally shots being fired in the area where
12 this incident took place. Is that right?
13 A. Yes, that's what happened.
14 Q. Thank you. And is it right, as well, that when you say you heard
15 a shot at a time when Mr. Haradinaj was standing at your back with a
16 pistol in his hand, that you didn't even realise at that point you'd been
17 shot. Is that right as well?
18 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I believe in a that misstates his
19 testimony. He didn't say Mr. Haradinaj was standing behind him. He
20 was --
21 JUDGE ORIE: It's a detail which would create no confusion.
22 Please proceed.
23 MR. EMMERSON:
24 Q. Is it right, Witness 29, that at the time when you say you were
25 shot, you didn't realise that you had been shot?
1 A. I already said that at that moment I heard somebody say, "Let's
2 kill (redacted)," and Mr. Haradinaj said, "I'll kill him with my own
3 hands." But because of the pain on my whole body, I did not realise that
4 the bullet had hit me, at that moment I mean.
5 Q. And how long did it take you to realise that it was a bullet shot
6 that had hit you?
7 A. Very little time.
8 Q. So were you still struggling with Mr. Haradinaj at a time when you
9 realised it was a bullet shot, or was it after the struggle had come to an
11 A. I realised when I saw the blood flowing, and then I saw the arm
12 and I saw the bullet, the exit point of the bullet.
13 Q. I see. Were you wearing your uniform? Did your uniform have arms
14 at that point? Were you wearing sleeves?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. When you appreciated that it was a bullet wound, were you still
17 struggling with Mr. Haradinaj or was the struggle over?
18 A. When I realised exactly what had happened was when I went to that
19 private home, when I saw my body that was covered in blood, that's where I
20 realised a hundred per cent what had happened.
21 Q. So you didn't realise you had been shot until the incident was
22 over and you'd left the scene. Is that correct?
23 A. Please. At the moment I received that wound, it was unbelievable
24 to me that I had been shot; but when I left and went to this place we're
25 talking about, I saw all my arm covered in blood. But I realised at the
1 moment when I was hit, a little bit afterwards, when I saw the blood that
2 I had been hit.
3 Q. Yes. Can I put the question to you again. Was it during the
4 struggle with Mr. Haradinaj that you realised you had been shot, or was it
5 after that struggle was over?
6 A. I think I'm giving the same answer. At that moment, I realised I
7 was wounded. Can I continue?
8 JUDGE ORIE: The answer very precise is: "You said shortly after
9 you were shot, you realised that you were shot." The question now is:
10 "Had by then the struggle with Mr. Haradinaj already ended, or were you
11 still struggling with him when you noticed that you must have been hit by
12 a bullet?" That's the question.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The struggle was still going on. As
14 soon as I heard the pistol shot, I realised that I had been hit. But I
15 thought I would die from that wound. I never thought I would survive.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So you were aware already of having been hit when you
17 were still struggling with Mr. Haradinaj.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Haradinaj was still over me when
20 I saw the blood.
21 MR. EMMERSON:
22 Q. If we look at the last of the four paragraphs.
23 MR. EMMERSON: That's for us the bottom paragraph on page 11.
24 Q. For you, it is the second paragraph on page 16. If you just cast
25 your eye over that. Do we understand your evidence correctly? You never
1 saw Mr. Haradinaj discharge a fire-arm, but you concluded that it must
2 have been him because he was standing right behind you with a pistol in
3 his hand, and that is where the injury occurred. Is that your evidence?
4 A. At the moment when Mr. Haradinaj wounded me, nobody else was over
5 me. So it was his pistol against my body and his pistol that wounded me.
6 There's nothing else to be said. The truth is that Mr. Haradinaj wounded
7 me, and nobody else was over me, except Mr. Haradinaj.
8 Q. Just so that we're clear, that is a process which you've worked
9 out from the position he was in. You never saw him shoot at you. Is that
11 A. I said that I saw with my own eyes Mr. Haradinaj over me when he
12 shot me. Nobody else could have hit me. Mr. Haradinaj had his pistol
13 against my neck, the back of my neck.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Whether your conclusion is right or wrong is another
15 matter, but conclusions are here to be drawn by the Trial Chamber on the
16 basis of the evidence. Simply: Did you see his finger pull the trigger?
17 Did you see that with your eyes?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I saw the moment he was over
19 me, and he pulled the trigger in the direction of my neck. It was just
20 destiny that saved me. Mr. Haradinaj pulled the trigger.
21 JUDGE ORIE: From all your gestures, it seems that the weapon was
22 not within the sight of your eyes. I'm not saying that you're wrong or
23 you're right, but we just want to establish whether the weapon held, as
24 you said by Mr. Haradinaj, was within your view or whether it was perhaps
25 very close or just on your shoulder or you may have felt it. It could be
1 anything, but whether you could see that weapon at that time. Don't worry
2 about inferences. Don't worry about conclusions. If they have to be
3 made, if they're logical, then, of course, it's up to the Chamber to make
4 such conclusions.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry. It was Mr. Haradinaj who
6 was over me. It was Mr. Haradinaj's pistol, and I saw it with my own eyes
7 when that pistol wounded me. I don't know how you as a Trial Chamber will
8 interpret this. I have come here to describe the event as it was, as it
10 JUDGE ORIE: Let me put it clear to you. If I am here at this
11 moment in this situation, I have difficulties on seeing what happens here.
12 I can't see it with my eyes. That's the problem. That doesn't mean that
13 it didn't happen as you said, but I can't see what is on the back of my
14 shoulder. I may feel it, I may hear it. I may everything, but I can't
15 see it. So now the question is -- and don't worry about what conclusions
16 should be drawn or should not be drawn.
17 The Chamber on the basis of all the evidence will make all the
18 determinations it will have to make. But did you see the finger of Mr.
19 Haradinaj pulling the trigger, or is it just that you knew that he was
20 just behind you and that you were at that time shot where you could not
21 imagine anyone else to do that than Mr. Haradinaj? That's the situation.
22 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Haradinaj wounded me. I saw it
1 with my own eyes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I think we've understood the position.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. EMMERSON:
6 Q. You say in your witness statement - and this is the bottom of the
7 last paragraph on page 11 - the bottom of your second paragraph on page
8 16, you say: "Because of the angle and direction, the bullet passed
9 through my upper arm. I do not believe the shot could have been fired by
10 anyone other than Ramush."
11 Is this a proper summary of the evidence you are able to give?
12 That's what you said in your statement.
13 A. My duty here is to explain the situation as it was. Mr. Haradinaj
14 wounded me with his gun. I don't know how you interpret the sentence.
15 The truth is that Mr. Haradinaj wounded me.
16 Q. Very well.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I think the matter has been
18 sufficiently explored.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'll move on.
20 MR. EMMERSON:
21 Q. Let me be clear, I want to take you through your evidence, please,
22 from the moment you saw him draw his gun to the moment you left the scene.
23 Now, you told us you saw him draw his gun, is that right, as he was
24 approaching you? Is that correct, as he approached you and Idriz?
25 A. The first moment Ramush was behind me before he hit Idriz
1 Ukehaxhaj; then Ramush moved towards the car, overtook me on the right,
2 and then went to Idriz --
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. -- and hit him.
5 Q. Listen very carefully. You've told us when he hit Idriz, he had
6 the gun in his hand. Is that right? Yes or no.
7 A. The pistol was in his right hand.
8 Q. Did you see him take the pistol out in the first place?
9 A. When he drew the pistol, I could not see him because he was behind
10 me. I only saw him when he overtook me, and he had the pistol in his hand
11 and hit the person on both sides of his face.
12 Q. Very well. That's clear. So you saw him as he overtook you, and
13 he already had the pistol in his hand. Is that correct?
14 A. I couldn't have seen him when he drew the pistol. I don't know
15 whether he drew the pistol out two metres or one metre behind me. I don't
16 know. I just saw him when he overtook me.
17 Q. Just listen to the question. When he overtook you, he already had
18 the pistol in his hand. Is that correct? Yes or no.
19 A. Please. I can't say when exactly. But when he came where I could
20 see him, he had the pistol in his hand.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, no one asked you. The simple question
22 was: Did you see him draw his pistol? The answer clearly is no, because
23 you said, "I could not see him when he drew the pistol."
24 So Mr. Emmerson asked for the second or the third time, although
25 it's perfectly clear to everyone that he had in the pistol in his hand
1 when he overtook you.
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. EMMERSON:
4 Q. Now, Witness 29, from the moment you first saw the pistol in
5 Mr. Haradinaj's hand to the moment when he jumped on your back, did you
6 see him shoot his pistol at any time, between the time when he -- you
7 first saw it in his hand and the time when you say he jumped on your back?
8 A. The first thing that happened was that he hit Idriz, not me.
9 Q. Listen very carefully to the question.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Again the question: Mr. Haradinaj overtook you.
11 Sometime later, as you said, he was standing behind you, and you're
12 convinced that he fired a bullet into your arm. Did he fire his gun in
13 between, or was that the first shot, the shot that hit you?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were shots around; but whether
15 it was Mr. Haradinaj's pistol or other guns, I couldn't identify them.
16 But while he hit Idriz with both hands, there were shots around.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The answer simply is: I don't know. It may have
18 been that Mr. Haradinaj fired his gun before this bullet hit me.
19 That's a simple answer. You don't have to explain it. Just focus
20 on the question. Yes. It's quite clear.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. EMMERSON:
23 Q. Now, Witness 29, apart from the time when you say he shot you in
24 your arm, did he at any other time shoot at you during this incident or
25 just the once?
1 A. He shot at me only once when he wounded me.
2 Q. And you saw the gun in his hand. After this, you told us a few
3 moments ago in your evidence - this is page 61, line 10 - you said:
4 "After the incident calmed down, he still had his pistol in his hand,"
5 and you saw this, did you?
6 A. Listen, listen. I want to say something to make it clear. At the
7 moment when someone shouted, "Let us kill (redacted)," and then Ramush
8 Haradinaj said, "I will kill (redacted) with my own hand," from that
9 moment, I saw him coming towards me with his pistol in his hand.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, we'll return into private session for
11 obvious reasons.
12 [Private session]
11 Page 3565 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
9 MR. EMMERSON:
10 Q. Witness 29, this document here records if you -- Witness 29 --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Listen to the question.
12 MR. EMMERSON:
13 Q. Could you turn, please, behind tab 3, maybe with the usher's
14 assistance. I'm going to show you now a witness, interview which you gave
15 to the UNMIK police on the 9th of August, 2004. And if you could just
16 look, first of all, immediately behind -- before the usher takes you to
17 that passage, just at the very front page behind tab 3. Do you have tab 3
19 Do you see your signature there about halfway down the page on
20 the, right-hand side, opposite your name. Do you see your signature, just
21 where your right index finger is now.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Could you pass the bundle to me? Yes.
23 Q. Do you see your signature there?
24 A. Yes, I see it in two places.
25 Q. If you turn over the page where there's some English writing, you
1 see it at the bottom of the page as well?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In fact, as will be clear, you've signed every page of this
4 document, indicating at the end that you had had it read to you, fully
5 understood it, and agreed with its contents?
6 MR. EMMERSON: Now, for Your Honours, I'm looking at page 85.
7 That's the second page, and its number's at the bottom in pencil at
8 questions 6 and question 8.
9 And for the witness, the Albanian translation is just behind the
10 green tab. Page 89 is question 6 and just over the page, page 90, is
11 question 7. If you could direct the witness's attention to question 6 and
12 question 7.
13 Q. I'm just going to read both questions and answers to you, Witness
14 29; both of them first, before I ask you to comment on them.
15 Question 6: "Will you please tell us specifically about the
16 nature of your complaint against Ramush Haradinaj?
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, reading at a slower pace.
18 MR. EMMERSON:
19 Q. "A. On the 4th of July, 2004, [as read] during the war here in
20 Kosovo, Ramush Haradinaj for no apparent reason shot me several times from
21 behind with the use of his hand-gun with the intention to kill me. I
22 survived said attempt on my life. I was only hit once on my right
24 Question 8: "Will you please narrate to us in detail how you
25 managed to escape from that attempt on your life by Ramush Haradinaj?"
1 Your answer: "Ramush Haradinaj, after firing several shots on me,
2 he runs out of ammunition. At that instant, Ramush was then hesitant to
3 get closer or attack me further as I faced him ready to defend myself,
4 although I was badly injured. Sensing Ramush was really hesitant from
5 making any further attack on me, I decided to run away and was able to
7 Now, Witness 29, when you were interviewed by the UNMIK police in
8 August 2004, I suggest that you told them that Ramush Haradinaj shot you
9 several times until he ran out of ammunition?
10 JUDGE ORIE: Shot at you.
11 MR. EMMERSON:
12 Q. Shot at you several times until he ran out of ammunition?
13 A. May I give you my answer?
14 Q. Yes, please.
15 A. I said that he fired several times and this is true, and others
16 fired as well. I couldn't identify who it was that fired. The important
17 thing here is that I was wounded by Mr. Ramush.
18 Q. Just look at your answer at page 93, line 4, please.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That might be difficult for the witness to
21 MR. EMMERSON: No, but I --
22 JUDGE ORIE: If you read it to him.
23 MR. EMMERSON:
24 Q. You said a few moments ago --
25 MR. EMMERSON: No. We're not in the bundle anymore. I'm looking
1 at the transcript.
2 Q. You said a few moments ago in your evidence, Witness 29: "He shot
3 at me once only when he wounded me."
4 And then a little later on, when you were asked questions by the
5 Judge, you made it clear that although you saw the gun in his hand,
6 subsequently, there was never any further shot. I want to ask you why you
7 told the UNMIK police in August of 2004 that he shot at you several times
8 until he ran out of ammunition?
9 A. Mr. Haradinaj started to shoot at the first moment, and his
10 munition didn't last 500 shots. At the moment he wounded me, I still
11 heard shots. I couldn't say whether these shots were his or others, but I
12 do say that he fired several times and that only one bullet hit me.
13 Q. I see. So is it your evidence now that you saw him fire more than
14 one shot, Witness 29?
15 A. Even at the moment that he struck Ukehaxhaj, he still kept firing
16 his weapon. He shot -- he struck him with his pistol and fired. The same
17 happened with me.
18 Q. You just --
19 A. I can't say to you how many times he hit me.
20 Q. You just told us a few minutes ago that though those there were
21 shots being fired, you don't think any one of them was shot by
22 Mr. Haradinaj. He may have done; he may not.
23 A. Please, please. At the moment when someone shouted, "Let's kill
24 (redacted)," and he said, "I'll kill him with my own hand," he only hit me
25 with one bullet. I cannot say that he -- I have 20 bullet wounds
1 sustained on my body by him.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, the point at least is clear. There is
3 some inconsistency which is not fully explained at this moment.
4 MR. EMMERSON:
5 Q. When you looked at your arm, did you see powder burns around the
6 wound, Witness 29?
7 A. I saw the powder burns afterwards when I went to get treatment.
8 My jacket was pierced, and it was burnt a little bit. How can I explain?
9 It was a little bigger than the actual bullet-hole. When the exit hole
10 was almost the same as the one that was seen on the jacket in terms of
12 Q. And, again, you say you were shot effectively at point-blank
13 range. Is that correct?
14 A. You are talking about Mr. Haradinaj now?
15 Q. You say you were shot by Mr. Haradinaj at point-blank range. Is
16 that correct?
17 A. When I was wounded, he was very, very close. The pistol was
18 behind my back and because I moved, the bullet hit me where it did;
19 otherwise, I would have been hit on my neck.
20 Q. Yes. I see. And you --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, it's lack of knowledge of language.
22 "Point-blank range" exactly is what?
23 MR. EMMERSON: Immediately up against the target.
24 JUDGE ORIE: But is that a touching the target or is could it be
25 at a distance of two, three, four, five centimetres?
1 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Point-blank range means so close to be in a
2 few centimetres.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Thank you.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] His pistol was on my back. It was
5 next to me. It was not far. It was on my body. I could feel it.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I was asking some clarification from Mr. Emmerson
7 what exactly he meant.
8 Please listen to the next question, Witness 29.
9 MR. EMMERSON:
10 Q. Presumably, Witness 29, you would accept with all those armed KLA
11 men in the area, if they wanted to kill you, they would have had no
12 trouble doing it?
13 A. They did what they wanted to do. Apparently, they deemed it
14 appropriate to leave it at that. There is no other explanation I can
16 Q. You see, I want to suggest to you, Witness 29, that although you
17 were involved in a fight at Gllogjan that day, that you've told a number
18 of deliberate lies about what happened.
19 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I'm sorry. Is there a question pending
20 here or is --
21 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
22 MR. KEARNEY: -- my colleague just expounding on his own view of
23 the evidence.
24 MR. EMMERSON: I'm putting my case. It's a requirement of the
1 MR. KEARNEY: I would ask if this witness is being asked a
2 question, he be asked a question.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I'm putting my question.
4 JUDGE ORIE: If this is an objection and not a question, then it's
6 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
7 MR. EMMERSON:
8 Q. I suggest, Witness 29, that it's not true that you saw or spoke to
9 Ramush Haradinaj in Isniq on the 4th of July. If you listen carefully to
10 the suggestions I'm putting to you, I'll ask you to respond to them at the
11 end. I suggest that it's not true that you in Isniq.
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Irzniq not Isniq.
13 JUDGE ORIE: It's properly pronounced by Mr. Emmerson, but it
14 is --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you ask me about Isniq village,
16 it is true that I did not speak to him.
17 MR. EMMERSON:
18 Q. Let me put my question carefully. I am going to suggest to you
19 that you did not see or speak to Ramush Haradinaj in Irzniq on the 4th of
20 July, that you were never taken to Gllogjan at all within, that you drove
21 there on your route to Pacaj, and that you were stopped and got into a
22 dispute with the guards manning the check-point at Gllogjan.
23 I suggest to you, you never went inside the KLA HQ, and you never
24 spoke to Ramush Haradinaj inside the HQ, but that you got into an argument
25 with the KLA guards about 50 metres from the HQ. You refused to obey
1 their commands because you thought that as FARK soldiers you didn't have
2 to take orders from them. A fight broke out. Shots were fired, and that
3 it was at that point that Ramush Haradinaj ran up.
4 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, again, that's a very compound question.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it is. Well, it's put to the witness a
6 different course of events, and I take it that Mr. Emmerson wants to know
7 whether the witness agrees that that is what actually happened, rather
8 than what he told us before.
9 Mr. Kearney, I think Mr. Emmerson is under a duty under Rule, I
10 think it's, 89(H), or something like that, to put to the witness -- let me
11 just have a look -- but please proceed meanwhile. I'll have a look at the
13 MR. EMMERSON:
14 Q. And I suggest further that he never drew his weapon, he never
15 threatened to kill you, and he certainly never shot at you, although shots
16 were being fired in the fracas that had taken place. That is the case I
17 am suggesting to you.
18 A. May I gave my answer or should I wait?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please give your answer.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything I stated here is true.
21 With respect to the questions or opinions of the Defence lawyer, it's as
22 if I were going to tell him, We were in Amsterdam having a coffee.
23 I cannot be here and not tell you the truth. I cannot say
24 something which is not true. What he is saying, it's his business. I
25 cannot say anything. The truth is what I already stated.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. EMMERSON:
3 Q. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, I was referring to Rule 90(H), where if
5 counsel invites a witness to give evidence relevant for his case, then, of
6 course, the case is what, in the view of the Defence, happened, that
7 counsel shall put to that witness the nature of the case of the party in
8 this respect. So therefore, that's what Mr. Emmerson did.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
10 MR. EMMERSON:
11 Q. I want to turn to the more general questions that you have given
12 evidence in relation to FARK, but to do it quickly because we are under
13 time pressure, so if you can keep your answers as short as possible.
14 First of all, I want to suggest to you on the day after this
15 incident, on the 5th of July, Ramush Haradinaj had a meeting with Tahir
16 Zemaj in Luke, just east of Decane, in which the incident that you had
17 been involved with was the subject of discussion. Did you know that?
18 A. Mr. Haradinaj and Mr. Zemaj met, but I don't know on what date,
19 and I know that Mr. Haradinaj apologised to him. That's why they met,
20 only for him to apologise; that is, I made a mistake. The situation got
21 out of control. I couldn't control myself.
22 This is more or less what he told Zemaj, at least as I heard it.
23 I wasn't present.
24 Q. You are aware, though, that the meeting took place, I suggest, in
25 fact, it was the 5th of July, the day after the incident. And what
1 Mr. Haradinaj told Mr. Zemaj, I suggest, and what Mr. Zemaj told you, is
2 that Mr. Haradinaj had apologised for the behaviour of the guards, in the
3 sense that the situation had got out of control. But that as far as he
4 understood, you and your colleagues had begun the confrontation.
5 A. If we were the ones who started the confrontation, why then did
6 Mr. Haradinaj come to Mr. Zemaj to apologise? This shows that he
7 understood that he was in error, and he came to apologise. At least this
8 is what my commander told me, that Mr. Haradinaj accepted the mistake,
9 apologised: This is not going to happen anymore. I couldn't control the
10 situation -- contain myself. The situation got out of control. It was
11 very wrong. That's it.
12 Q. Witness 29, you know full well that Ramush Haradinaj never said to
13 Tahir Zemaj that he could not control himself because you discussed this
14 with Tahir Zemaj, didn't you?
15 A. I wasn't present at that meeting between Mr. Zemaj and
16 Mr. Haradinaj, but I can only relay the words that my commander told me,
17 that Mr. Haradinaj apologised, the situation got out of control, I made a
18 mistake, and I'm not going to repeat the mistakes.
19 Q. Very well. Let me come to one or two other general questions
20 about the evidence you've given in relation to the relationship between
21 FARK and the KLA. And I want to suggest to you as a general proposition
22 that there were some initial problems of integration between the newly
23 arrived forces and the existing KLA; that those problems lasted no more
24 than two weeks; and that by the 10th of July, as our regards show, the
25 forces that Tahir Zemaj had brought into the Dukagjini region had been
1 fully integrated within the KLA, under the command of Ramush Haradinaj.
2 A. May I answer? The fact is that Mr. Haradinaj was a
3 self-proclaimed commander. I don't know who had appointed him in that
4 position. In the case of Mr. Zemaj, there was another structure. Someone
5 had appointed him commander. And, of course, Mr. Haradinaj had to welcome
6 Mr. Zemaj because, in fact, Mr. Zemaj was the general, overall commander
7 for the entire Dukagjin Zone.
8 Q. Well, that's what Mr. Zemaj thought because he was operating under
9 instructions from Ahmet Krasniqi. Is that right?
10 He thought he was the overall commander of the Dukagjini Zone and
11 was marching into it. Is that correct?
12 A. If any Albanian, any member of the KLA, wanted to call themselves
13 as a soldier, fighting for the future of Kosova, they had to obey the
14 orders of the prime minister and of the president. Whoever disobeyed such
15 orders, let them have their own responsibility.
16 Q. Witness 29, there were two separate structures giving orders
17 during the period immediately after FARK came into Kosovo, weren't there?
18 There was Tahir Zemaj taking orders from Ahmet Krasniqi; and then there
19 was an existing structure within Kosovo which had no connection to Ahmet
20 Krasniqi or the Bukoshi government. You know that, don't you?
21 A. Before we entered Kosova, some agreements were already in place.
22 I wasn't part of such agreement, but I know that there was an agreement.
23 We didn't go there just because we wanted to.
24 Q. You see, I want to -- you've mentioned disagreements that took
25 place in the Jasic area. Although, you told us you weren't there at the
1 meeting, you've given us an account of what you were told took place, with
2 threats being made against FARK soldiers and so forth.
3 Is it really the position that you don't know what the nature of
4 the disagreement was? Do you really not know what they were disagreeing
6 A. The agreement that I mentioned and that was referred to at the
7 time was that the KLA will welcome the FARK, will cooperate with it, and
8 will be placed under its supervision; that is, under the supervision of
9 the FARK.
10 Q. Well, that was the understanding that Tahir Zemaj had, I suggest.
11 When you first arrived, is it not correct that you were -- the officers
12 were given a feast. There was a large meal laid on for them by the KLA?
13 A. It was the Jasic village, the entire population of the village,
14 that welcomed us, and I can say that they welcomed us very warmly. I'm
15 talking about the people's reception, not about the KLA. I explained to
16 you how the KLA and Ramush Haradinaj received us.
17 Q. There were then a series of meetings; some at Junik and some at
18 Jasic. And if you are telling us the truth that you were being provided
19 with information from Tahir Zemaj, you will know, I suggest, that the
20 disagreement was because the KLA commanders wanted the trained officers of
21 the FARK to be distributed to reinforce defences in different parts of the
22 Dukagjin Zone; whereas, Tahir Zemaj had instructions from Ahmet Krasniqi
23 to keep the FARK forces as one unit.
24 You knew, didn't you, that that was the nature of the
1 A. I spoke only about Jasic reception. In Junik and other places, I
2 was in Isniq village, trying to find some places to accommodate our forces
3 in order to escape the fratricide with Mr. Haradinaj. From what I know,
4 because I wasn't part of the agreement, I cannot speak here for things
5 which is not part of my knowledge is that Mr. Tahir Zemaj should be the
6 overall commander for the 3rd operational zone of Dukagjin. Whereas
7 Ramush Haradinaj who was a commander before we entered Kosova would be
8 incorporated into the force -- into the FARK, that was it. But Mr.
9 Haradinaj acted in opposition to this.
10 Q. I see?
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson before you continue you earlier said if
12 you are providing us with the truth about information, et cetera, you will
13 know, that ignores that the information might not be correct that has been
14 provided to the witness.
15 MR. EMMERSON: That's right.
16 JUDGE ORIE: You ignored that, and that should be refrained from.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. EMMERSON:
19 Q. You see, I suggest that after the week or so that you spent in the
20 Jasic area or that the FARK forces spent in the Jasic area, the
21 difficulties were resolved to the extent that the FARK forces were able to
22 march up to Isniq, going through Gllogjan. Isn't that correct?
23 A. During that period, they had some other meetings but I wasn't
24 present at them. And from what I learned later from the commander, during
25 that period they had threatened us again and threatened us to go back to
1 the territory of Albania. But the order was given to us to enter Kosova;
2 then the problem was resolved through understanding that we leave Jasic,
3 an understanding between our superior officers to avoid any bloodshed.
4 But on the way, Mr. Haradinaj's forces attempted to prevent us,
5 but Mr. Krasniqi had ordered us to continue our march. So the order
6 was given to us to go to Isniq at all costs, irrespective of any threats,
7 any circumstances.
8 Q. The KLA soldiers under the command of Ramush Haradinaj fought side
9 by side with FARK soldiers at the battle of Loxha on the 6th of July just
10 two days after the incident you've described, didn't they?
11 A. The battle was waged at Loxha. The army from there was led by
12 Tahir Zemaj. There were also members of the KLA who were inhabitants of
13 Loxhe village but everything was led by Colonel Zemaj, at least this is
14 what I knew.
15 Q. The barracks at Prapaqan, they were provided by Ramush Haradinaj,
16 they were KLA barracks in which Rrustem Teta had been training KLA
17 soldiers and they were handed over to Tahir Zemaj, weren't they, on the
18 8th of July?
19 A. When we went to Prapaqan, there was no kind of investment made
20 there. There were no soldiers being trained. We transformed the school
21 into barracks. That place needed some investment, you know, beds to be
22 put in there, and everything was done by Commander Tahir Zemaj. Later on,
23 some from Mr. Ramush Haradinaj came there and we welcomed them. The
24 commander welcomed them to train them, but this was after we settled there
25 in the school. It's not what you told me.
1 Q. Just have a look behind tab 4, would you were briefly, please,
2 Witness 29. Behind tab 4 in the bundle, please.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Perhaps the usher could help.
4 Q. I'll just go through these very briefly with you if I could.
5 Behind tab 4(A), first of all, and there's a translation on the third and
6 fourth pages. That's an order signed by Ramush Haradinaj deploying KLA
7 soldiers to the Prapaqan barracks on the 8th of July.
8 Do you accept that there were KLA soldiers at Prapaqan barracks
9 from the 8th of July?
10 A. Please. I said that we were the first there, and later about 50
11 soldiers from Mr. Haradinaj came there. They had a commander who was from
12 Gjakove, if I'm not mistaken, but I'm not sure. But as I said, we were
13 the first there. They came later.
14 Q. Lets just be clear. You say in your witness statement that it was
15 the 8th of July that you went there. There were KLA soldiers there with
16 you at that time, weren't there, in the barracks?
17 A. When we went there, I said Mr. Tahir Zemaj, the commander, created
18 that place. I cannot say things here that are untrue. He paid for some
19 of the things that were needed there. These were not procedures that I
20 was involved in. Mr. Tahir Zemaj dealt with that.
21 Q. If you just look at tab 5(B) for a moment, that is a request by
22 Tahir Zemaj addressed to the Dukagjin Plain Operative Staff, of the 10th
23 of July, requesting the formation of three brigades of his officers. If
24 you follow over, there's 4 (B), 5 (A), and 35 (B), you can see Ramush
25 Haradinaj authorising the requests and establishing the brigades on the
1 12th of July.
2 So by the 10th of July, if you can see the request from Tahir
3 Zemaj, he's referring to an agreement from the 10th of July requesting and
4 proposing that the officers listed below be appointed to certain
5 functions. So by the 10th of July, would you accept that Tahir Zemaj was
6 fully absorbed within the Dukagjin Plain Operative Staff, under the
7 command of Ramush Haradinaj, just two weeks or so after FARK arrived?
8 A. You are asking me questions I have no competence over. I cannot
9 speak here about things I do not know. The thing I am saying here is when
10 we first went there, there was no soldier of Mr. Haradinaj there. I was a
11 simple soldier. I had senior officers who dealt with these things.
12 Q. Finally, this: I suggest as you lied about the incident at
13 Gllogjan, Witness 29, you deliberately tried to persuade the Trial Chamber
14 falsely, and knowing it was false, that during this period of time FARK
15 were under threat from KLA, when in fact there were a number of
16 organisational difficulties that were resolved in a period of two weeks.
17 That is my suggestion.
18 MR. KEARNEY: Objection to the phrase "at that time." It's vague.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Well, at that time.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Well, within the two weeks --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's clear everything was rotating around
22 let's say, early July.
23 MR. EMMERSON: The two weeks between the 24th of June when they
24 entered and the 10th of July when it is perfectly plain that they were
25 fully integrated. That's the suggestion.
1 JUDGE ORIE: So, Witness 29, Mr. Emmerson puts to you that there
2 were no threats by the KLA or that FARK was under threat of the KLA; and,
3 in fact, there were a number of organisatorial [sic] difficulties which
4 were resolved in two weeks. That is what he puts to you. Would you
5 agree with that, or would you say that's not true, what Mr. Emmerson puts
6 to you?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My duty here is to tell the truth.
8 Whatever the learned Defence lawyer says here, it's his duty. He has to
9 do his duty. What I'm saying here is the complete opposite of what the
10 lawyer just stated here, and those are my experiences that I lived.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, was that your last question?
12 Mr. Guy-Smith.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. Quite briefly, in order to save as much time
14 as I can, I make the exact same two suggestions to the witness that were
15 previously made by Mr. Emmerson with regard to the issue concerning FARK,
16 as well as the issue concerning what happened during July 4th.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're putting exactly the same to the witness?
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm putting exactly the same, and I'm moving on
19 from there.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I take it what the answers given to Mr. Emmerson are
21 answers in the case against all accused, so therefore there's no need to
22 repeat that.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excellent. I won't concern myself with that
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
2 Q. Witness 29, simply put, you are much more than a simple soldier.
3 As a matter of fact, you were tasked specifically by your superiors to go
4 into the region, as you told us, between January and the time you finally
5 entered in June to make a determination of how the population was to
6 defend themselves and "if it was a situation where we could fight." Is
7 that correct? That's what you've told us.
8 A. Yes, that's correct. But I said I was not a senior officer;
9 because had I been a senior officer, that would have meant that I finished
10 some kind of military academy or something.
11 Q. I understand that. You've also told us that during -- during the
12 period of time that you were engaged in your reconnaissance missions to
13 make a determination whether or not the group you were assigned to that
14 could come in and fight, the movements of the population became more
15 difficult, and that would be after March 24th.
16 I would like for you to comment on what you meant by the movements
17 of the population became more difficult. Is that as a result of the fact
18 that you saw yourself that wide-scale numbers of the population were, in
19 fact, fleeing from various areas because of the Serb bombing, shelling, or
20 other kinds of assaults?
21 A. The movement of the population became even more difficult after
22 the 24th of March because the KLA emerged at that time and the enemy
23 forces wanted to eliminate the KLA. So in some situations the people
24 living in the villages didn't want to get caught up in confrontation.
25 This was why the population had -- it was difficult for the population to
2 Q. And when you say the population didn't want to get caught up in
3 the confrontation, these were things you saw. You actually saw villages
4 of people trying to escape the area because of what was happening due to
5 the Serb assaults; correct? This was a kind of information that you were
6 reporting back to your superiors in Albania when you would go back from
7 one of your ten trips; right?
8 A. When I went back, I reported on the basis of the assessments that
9 I had made, and it may be that my assessments were not a hundred per cent
10 accurate. But from what I saw, the people wanted to live, of course.
11 Q. Being, if it is fair to say, the eyes and ears of Tahir Zemaj,
12 when you were going into the field on these trips, you mentioned, among
13 other things, that you were trying to make an assessment of the
14 preparation by self-defence by the "peasants," were your words. And what
15 I would like to understand, when you were trying to make that
16 determination, was that one of the things that occurred when you were
17 going from village to village, you were trying to figure out how many of
18 the peasants were involved in trying to defend their own villages?
19 A. Can I answer now?
20 Q. You may.
21 A. I'm trying to explain as correctly as possible. These were visits
22 that I was assigned with by Mr. Sali Ceku and Commander Zemaj; initially
23 by Mr. Ceku. However, my assessments were not, I think, a hundred per
24 cent accurate possibly, because I could not be in the position to do a
25 full assessment. But the people wanted to stay and defend their villages.
1 They could not just stay there and be attacked. They had to take up arms
2 and defend their own villages. It was not possible for the KLA to defend
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- with only a couple of guns.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- you misrepresented the evidence of the witness in
7 relation to the peasants. I checked it. He didn't say he was trying to
8 an assessment of the preparation of self-defence by the peasants, but he
9 said what he observed; that is, that sometimes, it was just self-defence
10 by peasants.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: I did not mean to misrepresent it, and as I see
12 it, it says: "Only some preparations for self-defence by the peasants
13 were under way." I believe that's his exact language on page 13, line 22.
14 But I wasn't trying to misrepresent anything. The point that I was
15 driving at --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you did.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: The point I was driving at is as follows, and I
18 will ask the question again.
19 Q. Which is: During the period of time you were trying to make an
20 assessment of what was going on on the ground, one of the things you were
21 making an assessment about was some of the preparations for self-defence
22 by the peasants that were underway; correct?
23 A. The peasants, or the villagers, wanted to get guns as soon as
24 possible. They wanted to defend themselves. They couldn't have military
25 structures. The population was interested in self-defence, to get some
1 guns and be able to defend themselves.
2 Q. Thank you. When you visited the villages that you mentioned to
3 us, those being: Smolice, Ponoshec, Racaj, Junik, Herec, Gramaqel,
4 Irzniq, and Luka, did you have a chance to make a determination who was
5 the village commander of each of those villages while you were on your
6 trips making assessments for your superiors?
7 A. There were periods when I went to Kosovo, and there were no
8 village commanders. I went to Kosovo even before the 24th of March when
9 the KLA had not emerged yet; while after the 24th every village, although
10 every village, although I can't say each and every village, it's better to
11 say some of the villages had begun to organise themselves in the meaning
12 that they had assigned a certain commander for the village.
13 Q. Can you tell us, as you sit here today, with regard to the
14 villages that you mentioned in your direct testimony and I just asked you
15 about, who the village commanders were?
16 A. I don't have any minutes here to tell me who was the commander for
17 each village. I've written down some names when I visited the villages in
18 the commune of Decane; however, when I talked to some of the villagers and
19 people, representatives in Decane, they told me that Mr. Haradinaj was in
20 command in that area. I was just a simple soldier then. Other people
21 evaluated the situation.
22 Q. My question is with regard, once again, to the village commander.
23 For example, did you know who was the village commander for the village of
25 A. I don't know even today who the commander in Smolice was.
1 Q. Ponoshec?
2 A. Please. At that time, I was just trying to assess the situation.
3 I was not writing down all the names.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Just tell us if you know it. I take it that,
5 Mr. Guy-Smith, you would like to go through all of them?
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I would like to do them as quickly as
7 possible, and I can repeat them. --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Racaj. Do you know who the commander there was? If
9 you don't know just tell us.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Junik, same question?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Junik was divided into some parts,
13 but I don't think they had a commander. Somebody came with us, and he was
14 assigned a commander; while in the area of Reka e Keqe, Salih Veseli was a
15 commander there. Although, I am not very sure.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Gramaqel, do you know the name of a commander?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Irzniq, I take it that you mentioned the name of the
19 commander there already?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the early period. It was
21 very early. I can't be sure.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Luka?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Rrustem Teta, people said that
24 he was commander.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Mr. Guy-Smith.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Do you know an individual --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, I'm looking at the clock, and I don't
5 know what you had in mind. I asked earlier whether the Defence considered
6 that they could finish if we would have half an hour in addition, and then
7 I got the message that most likely they would be able to do so. How much
8 time would you still need?
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Five to ten minutes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
11 Would you need any additional time for re-examination,
12 Mr. Kearney?
13 MR. KEARNEY: Just one question.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, five minutes are granted.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH:
16 Q. Do you know an individual by the name of Sami Tahiri from the
17 village of Beleg?
18 A. Sami Tahiri, he lives in Switzerland, and he was a prisoner after
19 the 1990s.
20 Q. Do you know a person by the name of Zenon Idrizi?
21 A. Yes, I do.
22 Q. Were you involved in an assault on Baballoq with them?
23 A. I was to some extent I would say, but not directly involved
24 because duties were assigned to us, as always; and in the assault of
25 Baballoq that you are asking me, there were three other persons. I wasn't
1 directly involved in that assault. I had another task assigned, as the
2 case was in other instances.
3 Q. Due to the time constraints that exist, I'm going to ask you a
4 question concerning what you've told us here today, which is that you
5 claimed in your testimony that when you were on your way to the
6 headquarters at Gllogjan, that you were driven between two cars and when
7 you arrived that one of the cars, being driven by Togeri, parked behind
8 you; correct?
9 A. When we left for Gllogjan, Daut was before we behind. When we
10 arrived in Gllogjan, Togeri was parked behind us.
11 Q. Do you recall making a statement in 2006?
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I'm referring the Court and counsel to
13 paragraph 13 of the statement.
14 Q. This is a statement you correct your previous statement, and you
15 say the following: "At page 9 of my statement, where I stated Idriz
16 parked his car about 50 metres from the entrance to the yard of the
17 Gllogjan, the KLA headquarters, I can clarify that Daut parked his car in
18 front of mine, but I did not see where Togeri went in his car."
19 When you made that correction to your statement, you were telling
20 the truth then, were you not?
21 A. I said in my statement - and it is very clear to me how it
22 happened - Daut parked the car in front of us; Toger behind us. I didn't
23 say where Togeri went. We parked in the middle about 50 metres far from
24 him, and there was nothing left for us to do. We were like in a sandwich
25 position. What could we do?
1 We had gone there to talk. We hadn't gone there to fight. I had
2 met Mr. Haradinaj half an hour before, so I went there without any
4 Q. And a final question: I suggest to you that at the store area,
5 you never had any contact with Toger whatsoever, and he never shot any gun
6 up in the air or threatened you in any fashion whatsoever. Isn't that
8 A. If you give me the opportunity to tell the truth, I will say the
9 truth. How you put it, it's your business. The truth is this, and if you
10 want me I will repeat it. Toger threatened us and brought out his weapon
11 and even threatened us with his weapon and even fired up in the air with
12 his weapon.
13 Q. Is that that -- when he did that, according to your testimony, is
14 what he did he pulled his weapon out and immediately fired it into the
15 air. Is that your testimony?
16 A. After them insisting on us getting into their car and taking us to
17 where they wanted, and after us then agreed, because what could we do? I
18 could go to Mr. Haradinaj, for me it would have been a pleasure having met
19 him half an hour ago. But I just said, I don't want to come with your
20 car. That was a solution we agreed on.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Could --
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Toger pulled out his pistol --
23 JUDGE ORIE: The question was whether he pulled out his weapon and
24 immediately fired this, whether that is your testimony?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Toger pulled out his weapon and told
1 us that, "You have to come with us in our car," and that he fired in the
2 air. I may not tell you exactly how many times he did, but for sure five
3 times, even more.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH:
5 Q. Before he -- before you saw him do that, fire his weapon in the
6 air five times, did you watch him load his weapon? Did he take his pistol
7 out and load it and then fire it in the air?
8 MR. KEARNEY: Well, that misstates his answer that he fired it
9 five times in the air.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was two, three metres away from
11 me. I could see each and every movement of his.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't mean to misrepresent his testimony with
13 regard to how many times he fired in the air.
14 Q. My question is this: You saw him pull out his pistol; and before
15 he fired it into the air, did you see him load his pistol?
16 A. You cannot load the weapon when you pull it out.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 29, quite clear. When he drew his weapon,
18 before he fired, did you see him loading his weapon or, that's the
19 opposite, was it already loaded?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He kept the pistol all the time in
21 his hand, then he loaded it, and then immediately fired in the air five or
22 six times. This is what I saw and this is the truth.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH:
25 Q. Yes. Do you recall when you made --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, I gave you five minutes. You have now
2 seven and a half.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: May I ask one more question?
4 JUDGE ORIE: One last question.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH:
6 Q. Do you recall when you told UNMIK in your statement in 2004 what
7 occurred regarding this incident, which is question 7, the following:
8 "Lieutenant Idriz Balaj immediately drew his hand-gun, loaded it, and
9 fired about four shots in the air."
10 A. If you are asking me another question, I will give you an answer,
11 but I already answered your question. He fired five or six times.
12 He loaded it and fired in the air to force us to get into his car.
13 That is the long and the short of it.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: I asked for one more question; I got one more
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Mr. Kearney, you asked for one more question as well.
19 MR. KEARNEY: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed.
21 Re-examination by Mr. Kearney:
22 Q. Witness 29, you were asked many questions about exactly what
23 happened during the period when you were beaten and when you were shot. I
24 want to ask you simply: Could you please tell us what your physical and
25 mental state was during that time-period when you were being beaten and
1 being shot?
2 A. You can understand what my mental state would be. When somebody
3 beats you in that fashion, when someone wounds you for no reason at all,
4 you can imagine what it is like, in a very bad state indeed.
5 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 MR. EMMERSON: If Your Honours has it in mind to ask the witness
8 to produce the notes --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. EMMERSON: -- I wonder if you would make an order that the
11 notebook itself and all copies of the notebook should remain with the
12 Tribunal; in other words, any copies that the witness may have of the
13 notebook in his possession should be handed to the Prosecution and kept
14 for safe-keeping.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The notebook or notes? Because the notebook was
16 returned to the Prosecution.
17 Witness 29, would you mind to leave the notebook for the time
18 being, the original, in the hands of the Prosecution and then perhaps
19 copies could be made for yourself, so that you, if you want to, consult
20 what was in the notebook.
21 MR. EMMERSON: For reasons, that might be best be dealt with
22 without the witness's headphones. I'm anxious that he should not take
23 with him any copies of the content of the notebook.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
25 Mr. Kearney, any problems with that?
1 MR. KEARNEY: No. Your Honour, I'm going to suggest that perhaps
2 the Trial Chambers might consider sending someone from VWS to go with the
3 witness --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. KEARNEY: -- to get the notes and bring them back to the
7 JUDGE ORIE: And up to that moment, to keep the original.
8 Has any copy been made and provided to you, Witness 29, or have
9 you made any copies yourself of the notebook?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't make any copies because I
11 brought it here to show it to you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, we'll keep the notebook for the time
13 being. That does not mean you will not receive a copy of the original
14 back perhaps at a later stage, but for the time being we would like to
15 keep it in the Tribunal. Would you agree with that?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whatever you deem appropriate.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But if you either keep a copy or
19 give me the original or the other way around, as you think it's best.
20 JUDGE ORIE: You'll receive that at a later stage, not
21 immediately. Is that understood?
22 Then I would like to instruct you, since you said you are willing
23 to provide all the notes you still have, to accept to be accompanied by
24 someone of the Victims and Witnesses Section to accompany you to any place
25 where you keep one of these notes, and to provide them to the person that
1 accompanies you, or someone assigned by the Victims and Witnesses Section,
2 because I do not know exactly where the limits of their competence is.
3 They might find someone to secure that. So you are now under an order to
4 provide all these notes. Do you understand that?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is also my pleasure, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's good to hear; then I'd like to thank you
7 very much for having come to The Hague. Whether it will be necessary at
8 any later stage to ask you to come back, we do not know yet. It might be
9 that there's no need for that. It might be otherwise. We do not know,
10 but you'll be informed about it if that's the case.
11 Yes, Mr. Emmerson, can the witness be excused already?
12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I was just going to say, to save time, I'll
13 deal with the exhibits of documents that were dealt with in
14 cross-examination first thing, if I may, when we resume.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's best.
16 Witness, thank you very much. I wish you a safe trip home again.
17 Yes, you are excused.
18 Yes. We'll deal with all the administrative matters at a later
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Is there something you need to bring to my attention?
22 MR. KEARNEY: Just that we need to read the 92 ter summary into
23 the record.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll do that at a later time when we have
1 Thank you to all the interpreters and the technicians and the
2 usher and all others who were quite flexible to make it possible for us to
3 finalise the information of Witness 29. We adjourn until the 7th of May,
4 quarter past 2.00, in Courtroom I.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.29 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 7th day of
7 May, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.