Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3788

1 Wednesday, 9 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning.

7 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

8 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

9 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Mr. Guy-Smith, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I am, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Tetaj, I would like to remind you that

14 you're still bound by the solemn declaration you gave at the beginning of

15 your testimony. You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith, who is

16 counsel for the defendant Balaj.

17 Please proceeded, Mr. Guy-Smith.


19 [Witness answered through interpreter]

20 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

21 Q. Good morning, sir.

22 A. Good morning.

23 Q. I'd like to start by asking you a couple of questions concerning

24 your military experience and your military understanding. From what I

25 understand of your background, you joined the military pretty much as a

Page 3789

1 young man and that was going to be your intended career sometime around

2 1978. Is that about right?

3 A. In 1974 I was a cadet. In 1978 I finished military duty.

4 Q. And if you were a cadet in 1974, it would be fair to say that it

5 was your intention to have as your career a military career for your life;

6 that's what you were planning on doing?

7 A. True.

8 Q. You remained in the military, and that's with the JNA, until what

9 year, sir?

10 A. Until 1989, by the end of 1989.

11 Q. And at the time that you left the military, what was your rank?

12 A. I, as a matter of fact, was forced to resign from the JNA because

13 I was an Albanian officer of career. The situation politically was such

14 in the Yugoslav territories, so I was at that time captain of first rank.

15 Q. I'd like to, if you could for the Chamber, I'd like to see if you

16 can describe a couple of things. As a member of the military, were you

17 issued a uniform when you were in the JNA?

18 A. Yes, yes. I had a uniform of the former JNA.

19 Q. Were you, during the time that you were in the JNA, ever in need

20 of ammunition or was there always sufficient ammunition for anything you

21 wanted to do?

22 A. The Yugoslav Army had a lot of weapons. It was an army which had

23 good place in Europe and even of world level. We had every kind of

24 weapons up to the most contemporary types of weapons including missiles,

25 kind of weapons which a world-class army has.

Page 3790

1 Q. Is it your understanding that as a matter of fact by the time you

2 were forced to resign from the Serbian army, that you were a participant

3 in one of the most advanced armies in the world at the time, one of the

4 most technically sophisticated armies at the time?

5 A. At that time we thought that the Yugoslav Army was the

6 third-biggest army in Europe.

7 Q. I see. Now, as a captain did you have responsibility for soldiers

8 under you?

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, what if the witness would say no, that

10 not be a huge surprise?

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: That would be shocking.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Okay. Could you please --

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well, I take your point, Your Honour.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would say, yes, it's true, I had.


16 Q. How many men were under your command when you were a captain of

17 the first rank and you resigned from the Yugoslav Army?

18 A. At the beginning it was a unit of artillery division. I was a

19 commander of squad which had few soldiers because it was specialised in

20 land artillery. So in terms of number, we had few soldiers than the other

21 units because we had the technique which did some of the job. So at the

22 moment when I was dismissed there was a division at the time, it had four

23 units, so probably 130 up to 150 soldiers. This was the unit.

24 Q. And being specialised in the area of land artillery, I take it it

25 would be fair to say that you were responsible for tanks. Is that fair?

Page 3791

1 A. Yes, it was specialised for tanks -- not for tanks, less for tanks

2 but for the system of armoured vehicles and also for land-to-land missile

3 system.

4 Q. Now, you said there came a time when you had to resign, and I'd

5 like to ask you some questions about what had occurred shortly before your

6 resignation -- [Microphone not activated].

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, could you please activate your

8 microphone. It was my mistake, it was something on my priority button,

9 which, as may be clear, I will never hardly ever use.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no interpretation.


12 Q. Where I was going was this: By 1989, the Serbian parliament, to

13 your knowledge, had limited the autonomy of Kosovo. Is that correct?

14 A. I could speak to you and tell you then that at that time we had

15 officers of different nationalities, starting from 1980s all the officers

16 of Albanian nationality were the targets of the Serbian army. So the

17 first discrimination began. That happened, and the fact is many officers

18 of the Yugoslav Army, there was a secret service of the state which did

19 this.

20 I belonged to a generation which graduated from the military

21 academy and we were the first people, we were about 30 Albanians, the

22 first batch of Albanian officers who graduated from this academy. So at

23 that time there was a lot of people -- there were a lot of people who were

24 interrogated, people who were taken away from their houses. There were

25 also other things which happened. As a matter of fact, many Albanian

Page 3792

1 officers and soldiers became the target. Many soldiers -- Albanian

2 soldiers came back from the army with injuries. It was an unenviable

3 situation for every Albanian which at the time wore the uniform of the

4 Serbian army. That began when Tito died in early 1980s.

5 Q. You mentioned that there was a secret service of the state which

6 did this and with regard to the secret service of the state, is that the

7 Serbian state that was involved in --

8 A. Military. I, in fact, referred to the Yugoslav state and the

9 secret service of the army.

10 Q. The secret service that existed at that time, when you were still

11 in the army, did you personally be called to task for purpose -- because

12 you were Albanian and asked questions about what your political leanings

13 were and what your intentions were as regards the Serbians themselves?

14 A. I was questioned, mostly because I was an officer of Albanian

15 nationality, and also because in 1980s there were the first demonstration

16 in university in Pristina. So every Albanian officer who was in the

17 Yugoslav Army was subjected to interrogation by the secret service of the

18 army.

19 Q. After you decided to resign, you then got a job working ultimately

20 in education - is that true - that was in, I believe, 1992 -- or I'm

21 sorry, it was sometime after 1990.

22 A. I will tell you. When I left the army I went to Strumica. I had

23 my house there, so I went back to my homeland. The situation in the

24 homeland was such that I needed employment. So after a competition in

25 Rilindja, I competed for the job as chief of radio and television of

Page 3793

1 Kosovo. I was admitted. So I was admitted and given the job as the first

2 chief of the radio and television of Pristina as the first Albanian chief

3 in the autonomous province of Kosovo.

4 However, unfortunately, on the very first day I was admitted,

5 despite my preparations, on that very day the Serbian forces took over the

6 television building so I have not a single day of work and career in this

7 job. Afterwards in Rilindja stuff was dismissed, so another newspaper

8 appeared, Bujku. I competed then for a job in the secondary school in

9 Klina. I was admitted and I began teaching in that school in Klina as a

10 teacher.

11 Q. After that attempt working in the television industry, you

12 ultimately got a job for a limited period of time in a secondary school as

13 a teacher; correct?

14 A. True.

15 Q. And at the time you were working as a teacher in the secondary

16 school, was the educational system of apartheid already in place, and by

17 that I mean that Albanians and Serbians were taught in two separate

18 systems with two separate languages?

19 A. True. We were in the same building but we were in true different

20 classes. The Albanian pupils were the majority; the other were the

21 minority. The director was actually imposed on us. He was imposed on us

22 by the Serb authorities.

23 Q. Ultimately your experience working as an educator also stopped and

24 that was as a result of the fact that you refused to follow the

25 Serbian-imposed programme of education?

Page 3794

1 A. True. I and my colleagues wanted that the curriculum should be in

2 Albanian language. We wanted to have programme of Albanian status, but we

3 had a lot of problems. So after a short period of time, we were even

4 removed from the building which was the property of the Albanian people,

5 the majority. So then the classes began to be held in all kinds of

6 makeshift facilities in private houses in Klina.

7 Q. And when you say after a short period of time you were even

8 removed from the building, who removed you from the building?

9 A. The violent director, together with the police, the local police

10 of the Serbian. They told us that only those who accepted Serbian

11 curriculum would be allowed to continue to remain in the schools. So no

12 pupil was allowed to go through the main gate or a teacher wasn't allowed

13 to enter through the main gate of the school. So we were forced to choose

14 another system in order to continue the education. So at that time in

15 Kosova every house was turned into a school.

16 Q. After you left that job you were ultimately arrested, I believe,

17 in September of 1993, accused of terrorist activities and imprisoned?

18 A. Yes. True. After my dismissal from school, we went to the

19 villages. I lived in a village. It was far away. We had no money. I

20 was arrested somewhere on 29th of September, 1993. They accused me of

21 preparing a system for secession and for seeking to set up a military

22 organisation to separate Kosova from Yugoslavia. These were the charges

23 on basis of the Serbian penal code.

24 Q. You mentioned to us but a few moments ago that while you were in

25 the military the state secret service interrogated you because you were

Page 3795

1 Albanian?

2 A. True.

3 Q. Is your experience in 1993, were you once again interrogated by

4 the state secret service with regard to their suspicions of you being

5 involved in activities against the state?

6 A. Yes. I was arrested on 29th of September. They kept me for three

7 days and three nights in SUP of Peje. The people who interrogated me were

8 civilians. They were people sent from Belgrade. They had military

9 experience also. So they asked me questions which were related to my

10 activity in the army and during the time since I had left the army. True

11 what you said.

12 Q. During the time that you were being interrogated in 1993, were you

13 shown your file; and by that I mean were you shown a file that included

14 all of the both, I'd say, you know, factual as well as surveillance

15 information that they had about your life from the time that you were in

16 the military up to and through 1993, when you were arrested?

17 A. No, they did not show me any file. They asked me a lot of

18 questions about all kind of things. They accused me of organising a

19 formation of 1.200 soldiers in Dukagjin Plain. However, when I appeared

20 in the court, they could not bring any evidence about these 1.200 people,

21 they could not bring any witness to show and prove that I was doing.

22 Q. During the time that you were being interrogated in 1993, did they

23 mention to you at that time names of other individuals they believed that

24 you were working with or conspiring with against the state?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3796

1 Q. Could you tell us who some of those people were that they accused

2 you of working with and conspiring with against the state at the time?

3 A. Mehmet Bojki, who was member of the Democratic League of Kosova

4 and he was an experienced captain of Territorial Defence of Decan; Ibrahim

5 Ukhaxhaj from Decan. They asked me about the defence minister at that

6 time Hajzer Hajzeraj, who was the minister of the autonomous province of

7 Yugoslavia.

8 Q. You were convicted, you went --

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: [Microphone not activated]

10 Pardon. This was the minister for the autonomous province or

11 provinces of Yugoslavia?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He was the minister of the

13 autonomous province of Kosova.

14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to add here that in the

16 1980s Kosova took part and was represented like all republics in the

17 Yugoslav system; however, in the military system the autonomous province

18 had the same Territorial Defence as the other republics. However, in

19 1980, upon an order of the General Staff of Yugoslav Army, people were

20 dismissed from work. The system of Territorial Defence was abolished. So

21 nobody was anymore in charge. This was done only in Kosova. There was

22 some kind of inspection on the part of people from Yugoslavia. They came

23 there to check the situation in every municipality, in every barracks. So

24 Kosova was stripped of the Territorial Defence system, which until that

25 time it was of the same level as the armed forces of Yugoslavia. So what

Page 3797

1 they did, they did it only in Kosova.


3 Q. So the net effect of the -- Kosovo being stripped of the

4 Territorial Defence system was that there was no standing group of men and

5 women who were able to defend Kosovo, correct, an organised group?

6 A. That's correct. Until 1980 we had the system. We had people of

7 career who worked in the Territorial Defence system; however, this system

8 was abolished. The same thing was done with the schools. So the weapons

9 from that time was taken over the army. The Yugoslav Army was one part

10 and then the Territorial Defence system was also a component of the

11 Yugoslav forces. So the Territorial Defence system, together with the

12 units, together with the ammunition and the military equipment, all of

13 this was taken away from us and it was put in the hands of the Yugoslav

14 Army. So this happened in 1980. From that time, there was no longer any

15 Territorial Defence system in Kosova.

16 Q. Now, I want to move up to 1998, and as I understand the evidence

17 you've given thus far, you were at that time in your village in Donja

18 Luka; correct?

19 A. True.

20 Q. And in March, as we've heard, there was an attack on the Haradinaj

21 family compound, which you not only heard but you saw parts of; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. During that period of time in your village, was there any form of

24 or group of people who were trying to deal with defending the village in

25 any fashion?

Page 3798

1 A. Yes. I personally had military experience in the -- there were 41

2 villages in Decan. The people were stripped of jobs, were stripped of

3 education, were stripped of Territorial Defence. People were jobless.

4 People at that time left the country altogether, they felt insecure. So

5 at that time we discussed about how we could set up a system. We thought

6 about how we could set up -- set up a defence. Of course this was only

7 theoretical talking because we had no means to do that, because at that

8 time the war broke out in Slovenia, in Croatia, in Bosnia. So these were

9 the big concerns and we thought what we should do here at home to defend

10 ourselves. So in a most secret way we discussed all this. The state

11 secret was very active so it was difficult. So we discussed and thought

12 about how we could set up a system in order to be capable of coping with

13 an eventual attack and how the population would behave in face of such an

14 attack.

15 Q. You mentioned the state secret was very active, and I take it by

16 that you mean the state secret service was active during that time?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And when you say they were active, what were they doing at that

19 time? Were they arresting young men and women for alleged terrorist acts

20 during that time, to your knowledge?

21 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Of what time, Mr. Guy-Smith --

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Of March.

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- are we speaking of? Because the witness

24 answered the question before in a very broad way, including the whole

25 decade of the 1990s, I think --

Page 3799

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'll make it --

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- referring to Slovenia and Croatia --

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'll make it more specific.



6 Q. Just a minute, Mr. Tetaj. For the purposes of the question I'm

7 asking, I'm dealing right now with the months of February and March,

8 during that time --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Of 1998.


11 Q. -- was the state secret service involved in arresting young men

12 and women for alleged terrorist acts, and that would be for 1998?

13 A. They were not taken for terrorists but for political reasons. So

14 people were interrogated. They were brought to facilities where they were

15 interrogated. There was harassment. This was done for political

16 reasons. They were asking whether people had weapons. They asked us

17 whether you had -- we had a gun, et cetera.

18 So I would also like to add - which I think is of importance - in

19 my municipality in Decan, there was a small minority of Serbs and

20 Montenegrins; however, these people had all the posts in Decan

21 municipality. So even if somebody had -- had followed a course for a

22 waiter, he was the chief of finance in the municipality. So people

23 without education, they had all these posts. So on the other hand, the

24 population, people who were intellectuals, who had education, they were

25 left jobless. This happened in the municipality and this could be said so

Page 3800

1 for the posts of the municipality.

2 Q. The meetings that you were having in your village, how many people

3 were involved in March of 1998?

4 A. My village is a big one -- in fact, it's rather -- rather small

5 comparatively. Each household - and I'm talking about the last stage -

6 there was a volunteer coming from each household. So in total, we could

7 talk about 30 households, 30 people.

8 Q. And when you said you're talking about the last stage, could you

9 give us a time-frame in which you're dealing with the last stage in which

10 you received volunteers from 30 households, so that's 30 people.

11 A. I'm talking about the time when the -- the operational staff for

12 the Dukagjin region was established.

13 Q. Would this be before the first meeting that you had that you were

14 invited to with Ramush Haradinaj and others?

15 A. No. Up until then there were some five, six, seven people, no

16 more.

17 Q. At that time, when there were five, six, seven, before the May

18 meeting, was your village at that time attacked by the Serb forces, either

19 the MUP or SUP?

20 A. No. At the time we were organised on the basis of cells. One was

21 in the upper Luka. At the time we were organised on the basis of a system

22 of cells in certain points, key points, which would not allow the Serb

23 forces to move in. Our village was a bit more internal.

24 Q. I'm going to now move to discuss Faik, I believe his last name is

25 Gecaj. Is that a correct pronunciation?

Page 3801

1 A. Gecaj.

2 Q. Faik Gecaj was somebody who lived in your village; true?

3 A. He was born in my village, but he mostly lived in Germany and the

4 United States.

5 Q. He is the -- he is the individual who brought to your village a

6 series of light weapons and a uniform for you; right?

7 A. True.

8 Q. That is something that he did independently - and

9 by "independently," I mean it was a village decision to obtain these

10 weapons and I take it his getting you a uniform was a personal decision on

11 his part?

12 A. It was his own voluntary decision, but it wasn't his initiative.

13 It was the initiative of the village to send someone across to bring us

14 enough weapons for the first stage so that that cell in the village could

15 have weapons, be equipped with weapons for self-defense.

16 Q. You told us yesterday that the only person who had a uniform I

17 believe during the entire time that you remained in Kosovo until you left

18 in September was yourself, for your village?

19 A. Yes, yes, that's true. The rest were civilians.

20 Q. The other people who fought with you, some were volunteers and

21 some were part of the KLA structure. Is that a fair statement? And I'm

22 only referring now to your village.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, was there any way of making a distinction between somebody

25 who was a volunteer and somebody who was part of the KLA army? And I'm

Page 3802

1 referring now to the issue of uniforms. And what I'm trying to understand

2 is: Would it be fair to say that a lot of people wore whatever they had

3 available to them in terms of clothing to go fight? Some people wore

4 camouflage, shirt or pants if they had it...

5 A. I want to make a clarification. Look, for the moment at that

6 time, not only those who had a uniform, not only those who had weapons,

7 not only those who were daring, but also young, old, young and old, in one

8 way or another supported the KLA. They felt in the moral aspect to be

9 members of that army, but they had no weapons, they had no uniform. Every

10 corner, every bit of Kosovo felt as part of the KLA, including women and

11 children, but the reality was different.

12 Q. Those people who did attempt to clothe themselves in some kind of

13 uniform often would wear a pair of black pants and a black shirt, and

14 right now I'm talking about in your village during the summer of 1998.

15 That was one of the ways of identifying themselves as being in support of

16 the KLA, wasn't it?

17 A. Yes, there were some people who did that, a country member

18 exactly, but it was a great wish to have a weapon, to have a uniform, so

19 that they could be identified as member of an army, a member of the KLA.

20 So everybody wanted -- but each and every one individually were trying to

21 do their own thing to achieve this status.

22 Q. Some people, for example, do you know an individual by the name of

23 Mete Krasniqi?

24 A. Mete Krasniqi, yes.

25 Q. He wore a black uniform; correct?

Page 3803

1 A. True.

2 Q. He was part of the police; true?

3 A. That's what he called himself, but to this day I have no idea who

4 oriented him to do that but it was his own will. But all those who were

5 wearing such uniforms, they had an idea of establishing such an entity;

6 but it was his own personal initiative that he did earlier before

7 everything happened.

8 Q. Now, the entity that Mete Krasniqi was involved in, do you know

9 other people who worked with him?

10 A. Together with Mete Krasniqi at the time it was Din Krasniqi, a

11 doctor, and I also know that Faton Mehmeti was in contact with him.

12 Q. And did they, too, wear black uniforms?

13 A. No. Faton Mehmeti was wearing a camouflage uniform. The doctor

14 had no uniform. He was in civilian clothing, I'm talking about Din

15 Krasniqi.

16 Q. Mete Krasniqi is an individual who travelled extensively through

17 the four subzones that you've identified for us, didn't he?

18 A. True.

19 Q. And if I understand your evidence, he operated on his own personal

20 initiative; correct?

21 A. At the time I've seen him, I saw him moving around. I can say

22 that that's correct.

23 Q. Do you recall whether or not he carried handcuffs with him?

24 A. For as far as handcuffs are concerned, I'm not aware of that. He

25 carried a weapon. He travelled in a car. In my village, in my subzone

Page 3804

1 and in subzone 4 there were many things about Mete Krasniqi. As I said,

2 he was from Vranoc, but most of his life he lived in Peje. Initially --

3 well, before. He was not know as Mete Krasniqi but he was most popularly

4 known by the name of Mete Vranoci. Mete Krasniqi was his family name, but

5 he was known as Mete Vranoci.

6 Q. In your contact with Mete Krasniqi, did he ever discuss with you

7 lists of people that he was interested in?

8 A. The first contact that I had with him was in September, when we

9 withdrew to the Bjeshka of Rugova, and he was a civilian then, he had no

10 uniform.

11 Q. I've -- I'm noticing, Your Honour, that on line 22, the witness

12 said subzone 4, I don't know whether he misspoke himself or whether

13 there's a mis --

14 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any doubt, please ask the witness,

15 Mr. Guy-Smith.

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.

17 Q. Your subzone was subzone -- what was your subzone, subzone 3 or

18 subzone 4?

19 A. Mine was number 3, but I said that on the side of Bistrica in

20 subzone 4 he was seen circulating around that area. And it was along the

21 valley of Baran that he was travelled. But my subzone - and we're talking

22 about subzones here - was number 3.

23 Q. When you met Mete Krasniqi in September and he was a civilian

24 then, was that in 1998?

25 A. Yes.

Page 3805

1 JUDGE ORIE: Just for my clarification, just to clarify --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He left [indiscernible] --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Hold on. Mr. Tetaj, I think you testified that Mete

4 Krasniqi was wearing a black uniform. You said you -- the first contact

5 you had with him was in September. Could you tell us whether you did see

6 him wearing a black uniform before September.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. He was moving around,

8 travelling in a car. I haven't -- I haven't met him to stop and talk, but

9 I've seen him driving his car in black uniform. He called himself as of

10 the military police.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then perhaps one more question on this matter.

12 You said you didn't stop him, you didn't meet him. How did you become

13 aware that he said he called himself as of the military police? Is that

14 what you heard from others? Did you hear that from Mr. Krasniqi himself?

15 Could you please elaborate on that.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is other people came to me and

17 asked me, How come that Mete Krasniqi is in a military police uniform?

18 But people who knew him better than I did, they came to me. And they were

19 surprised at the same time what was happening. Not to say that for the

20 region he was a kind of suspicious person, and they knew him as Mete

21 Vranoci rather than Mete Krasniqi.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.

23 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.


25 Q. Yesterday when you were discussing the meeting in which various

Page 3806

1 individuals were given various jobs, and that would be on the 23rd of

2 June, 1998, with Mr. Emmerson you went through a number of names and

3 discussed, among other things, what the actual capabilities were for the

4 army and that in fact you were trying at some level to inform the

5 population of what you were trying to do and what you hoped to do. One of

6 the assignments that was made was an assignment that was made for the

7 assistant for sabotage combat and the name there is the name Toger. It's

8 something that Judge Orie, as a matter of fact, commented on. And I would

9 like to talk to for a moment you about this particular assignment, which

10 is the assistant for sabotage combat, if I might.

11 In your military experience, could you explain to the Chamber what

12 sabotage combat is.

13 A. If I am given the opportunity to explain, I -- I'm -- we are

14 talking here about if a group, a diversionist group is sent to find out

15 what's been happening on the enemy side and they do not carry out their

16 tasks, then that is considered as sabotage. That's how I see it, the

17 meaning of the word "sabotage." That means withdrawing from your duties

18 without carrying them out, without having carried them out.

19 Q. All right. In the situation -- in the situation that we're in, it

20 would not make a great deal of sense, would it, to appoint somebody to a

21 job like that - and by that I mean a job of withdrawing from your duties?

22 And may I suggest to you that in this particular situation the idea was

23 that whoever had that job - here, it's Toger - would go to Serb stations,

24 police forces, or other military places and attempt to engage them in some

25 form of military action or try to blow up or kill some of them?

Page 3807

1 A. To be honest, it's not clear to me, the question is not clear.

2 But you explained it very well. If that's the role, that's how it should

3 act.

4 Q. Well, at the time you were at the meeting and this particular

5 assignment was made, can you -- as you sit here today, can you tell us

6 what the purpose was for being the assistant to sabotage combat? If you

7 don't know, you don't know.

8 A. This I don't know, and I'm not clear about which meeting we are

9 talking about, I'm not clear about this.

10 Q. What you do know, what you've told us is --

11 A. Or I may not recall what went on.

12 Q. That's perfectly fair. That's fine. I -- and I thank you for

13 your efforts. What you do know and what you have told us is that Togeri

14 was the head of the Black Eagles, which was a group of young men,

15 somewhere between 25 or 30 men; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you've also told us that as you know, he was involved in

18 actions - and by "he" I mean his unit - was involved in actions, that's

19 battles, with the Serbs in a number of different villages; right?

20 A. Yes. I agree with the numbers you mentioned, and they were

21 volunteers who were very daring, young people, and they were volunteers

22 who joined Togeri completing this task.

23 Q. [Previous translation continues]... who had black clothes on?

24 A. They were wearing the black clothing, better to say, so that they

25 could distinguish themselves from the rest. They had an insignia of the

Page 3808

1 KLA on these dark clothes.

2 Q. If you could, if you could tell us the -- whether I'm correct when

3 I mention the following areas, that these are places where the Black

4 Eagles were involved in battles during the summer of 1998. Voksh?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Baballoq?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Prilep?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Gramaqel?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Shaptej?

13 A. Shaptej, about Shaptej, I'm not sure.

14 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith --

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Junik --

18 JUDGE ORIE: -- there was -- the next village was not understood

19 by the transcriber because the previous translation continued.

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: My apologies.

21 JUDGE ORIE: So could we start on from Shaptej, next one would

22 be?


24 Q. Rastavice?

25 A. Rastavice, yes.

Page 3809

1 Q. Junik?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Carrabreg?

4 A. Carrabreg, yes.

5 Q. Dubrava?

6 A. There was no offensive there in Dubrava. It's near Gramaqel.

7 Q. I think it's Sllup?

8 A. Sllup, Lloqan, Voksh, they are located very close to each other.

9 Q. Gllogjan?

10 A. Gllogjan, they -- they couldn't --

11 Q. I also believe --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Sorry. I interrupted you. I do apologise. You said: "Gllogjan,

14 they couldn't ..." And --

15 A. There were other forces there. They didn't need for -- they

16 didn't need reinforcements there.

17 Q. Loxha?

18 A. Loxhe, you are talking about Loxhe, yes.

19 Q. In your memory, are there other villages where the Black Eagles

20 were involved in battles during the time that you were in Kosovo in the

21 summer of 1998?

22 A. No. These were the places which you mentioned. These were the

23 places under heaviest attack. So in my opinion, I don't think of any

24 other place. Of course there could be movements to different areas, but I

25 don't remember other names other than the ones you mentioned.

Page 3810

1 Q. You earlier mentioned that the Black Eagles was comprised of a

2 group of daring young men, and I'd like to talk to you for a moment

3 about -- about that, because yesterday, among other things, when Mr. Re

4 was discussing matters with you he had indicated that you had said that in

5 your understanding when they were deployed to go fight, they never fought

6 in groups of more than two or three. This was a very small unit, wasn't

7 it?

8 A. It was a very small unit compared to the region, and a very, very

9 small group was engaged in the actions, not the whole group. The daring

10 people, the voluntary people who took part here did not simply want to

11 carry black uniforms and carry one attack or another, but they wanted to

12 be engaged in a training course for such actions. For example, they

13 wanted to know how to use a weapon for a very brief period of time. This

14 is what I wanted to say.

15 Q. And the Black Eagles' responsibility was to come in and, among

16 other things, reinforce the villages when the Serbs were attacking; right?

17 A. Yes. This was its responsibility. In any case of Serbian action,

18 its presence was a cause of pride for the people to see that the unit was

19 there. So they -- the group gave its support. So if there was an attack

20 against a village, like Carrabreg, Lluka, or Prilep, people always wanted

21 to have the assistance, support, of the Black Eagles. It was moral

22 support. The establishment of this unit was an act of moral support.

23 Q. Apart from being moral support, it was actually, in fact, true

24 military support because these young men, Toger's unit, had weapons and

25 training that allowed them to effectively fight against the Serb forces?

Page 3811

1 A. I don't deny this; it is true.

2 Q. Idriz Balaj was not from the area, was he?

3 A. I would like to declare again openly, I had contacts with Idriz

4 Balaj but I never knew him as Idriz Balaj. He can confirm it himself. I

5 knew him as Toger and I knew that he did not come from that region.

6 People did not know him in that region, and he also did not know the

7 people of the surrounding villages. His name, Idriz Balaj, I read it and

8 learned about it later, after I read some books on the KLA. Then I

9 learned about the identity of the person of Idriz Balaj. But at the time,

10 the way he spoke, I thought he was from Suhareke.

11 Q. Very well. And I thank you -- I thank you for the answer. The

12 man that you knew as Toger, not coming -- not coming from the area, this

13 constituted somewhat of a double-edged sword for him, didn't it? And by

14 that I mean he was doing good work, as you've just told us; his unit was

15 supporting and helping the people, as you've told us; but he was a

16 stranger and in the area in which you come from there were few strangers?

17 A. That's true. That's true that he came there. He came there to

18 defend the villages and the population of that region. And I'd like to

19 thank him for doing that and possibly also in the name of -- he gave moral

20 support to people, and in fact it's -- it was the hope that kept Togeri's

21 unit and the people keeping on. People felt more secure when they were

22 under attack from the Serbian forces.

23 Q. Part of the reality at the same time, however, was that if there

24 was an effective defence, there would be a greater response by the Serbian

25 army, wouldn't there? It would come in with more guns, more soldiers,

Page 3812

1 more tanks?

2 A. Yes, yes. Surely if the -- our forces grew in number, as they

3 grew in number and techniques, also the Serbian forces grew in number.

4 The same thing could be said about the reinforcement.

5 Q. [Previous translation continues]...

6 So a reality on the ground was that when Toger and the Black

7 Eagles were present, there was fighting, there was death, and there was

8 defence?

9 A. I would have put it up differently. There -- the Serbian forces

10 continued less if the Black Eagle units were engaged. The action was

11 shorter. Whether there is death or other casualties, nobody could really

12 guess what would have happened.

13 Q. You --

14 A. In the action he took part, not only Toger but also other

15 soldiers. Nobody thought that he would come back alive. This is how I

16 would have put it.

17 Q. Well, I think you've certainly put it better than I could because,

18 among other things, I wasn't there.

19 A. Sorry. I could add something. Where we operated and where Toger

20 operated, the Serbian forces were concentrated, they had their arsenal. I

21 also showed you on the map where they were deployed in the region. We

22 were under siege, so it was almost impossible for us to resort to big

23 movements. So we did as few movements as possible.

24 Q. I'd like to ask you about one last matter, which is yesterday you

25 confirmed in speaking to Mr. Re that you spoke with a young man in Tirana

Page 3813

1 by the name of Astrit Berisha.

2 A. Yes, yes, yesterday I mentioned him.

3 Q. You explained to us that Astrit Berisha was attempting to justify

4 why he was not in Kosovo fighting, if I understood your testimony

5 correctly.

6 A. Yes, that's true.

7 Q. You confirmed that Astrit Berisha told you that Toger killed every

8 member of his unit that wanted to leave. That's what Astrit Berisha told

9 you.

10 A. As far as the withdrawal of FARK from Kosova is concerned, when

11 this happened the people's hopes diminished. Therefore, Toger's units and

12 the other units which remained in Dukagjini Plain were weakened, much

13 weakened. They had also a lower morale. So the people who withdrew, they

14 can confirm that he tried to justify why he withdrew, and I didn't think

15 that what was said was true because if somebody comes to help me, if

16 somebody comes to support me, I will try to do anything to ensure that

17 everybody becomes Black Eagle. So he could not kill anybody. This is

18 illogical. So I could say that he knew that I was an officer, I had

19 participated. So he talked to me simply because he was weak.

20 Q. When you were talking to the investigators from the Prosecutor's

21 office about what Astrit Berisha told you, did you explain to them at that

22 time that he was trying to justify the reasons that he fled the conflict?

23 A. I don't remember. Also, they didn't insist on asking me this.

24 They asked me simply what I heard and with whom I had contacts. So then

25 one question after another I came to that, what I said.

Page 3814

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 A. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, you put a question to the witness on

4 the small groups in which the Black Eagles operated. Do you happen to

5 remember where exactly to find the source of that first testimony? You

6 said two to three people. I couldn't find it.

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I do, and I'll give it to you in two seconds,

8 if I might.


10 Meanwhile, Mr. Harvey, are you ready to cross-examine Mr. Tetaj?

11 MR. HARVEY: I am, yes, thank you.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Tetaj, you'll now be cross-examined by

13 Mr. Harvey, who is counsel for Mr. Brahimaj.

14 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:

15 Q. Good morning.

16 A. Good morning, sir.

17 Q. I have four matters that I want to raise with you; I think they

18 will all be short. The first concerns your visit to Jabllanice where you

19 were asked on Monday by Mr. Re if Nazmi Brahimaj's house was the local KLA

20 headquarters in Jabllanice. Do you remember him asking you that question?

21 A. Yes, I remember.

22 Q. Was that your first -- sorry, no.

23 You had visited Jabllanice in July -- sorry, the end of June, 23rd

24 of June; correct?

25 A. Yes, it was the first time; this was the second time.

Page 3815

1 Q. And you described that house as - at least the translation

2 reads - "it's called a fort from our people here." Does the

3 word "compound" sound like the right word to you? And I don't know how

4 that's being translated, of course.

5 A. I remember then I entered through a door. It was a stone house

6 then. That's how it was. Today I don't know how the house is. But I

7 went there on 23rd. Lahi was present, then I went a second time, Nazmija

8 was present. I understood -- I thought that this was their house. Maybe

9 it was not their house, it could be the house of somebody else, but that's

10 what I thought. But it was in Jablanica, that's true. So it should not

11 be taken absolutely for true that I knew that this was their house and the

12 staff. That was not very much important to me.

13 Inside the house there was no sign for me to understand that this

14 was a staff. There was not a notice saying that this was the staff of

15 Jablanica. There was no arrow indicating that it was simply a house of

16 Albanian character with our characteristics.

17 Q. Okay. I don't want to get into a lot of detail here. Essentially

18 there was nothing to indicate that this was the KLA staff headquarters or

19 anything of that sort. It was a private house?

20 A. Absolutely. There was nothing. I did not see anything telling me

21 that this -- in this house there was a staff or that something was being

22 held there.

23 Q. Did you see, do you recall now, did you see many soldiers of the

24 KLA in Jabllanice?

25 A. No, just at the entrance of the village as it was the case with

Page 3816

1 other villages on one side, the people -- the names of the people were

2 taken down. So if you leave from Zhabel on the other side, on the

3 hillside, there were some civilians. There was a shop, a makeshift shop.

4 They had no weapons, they were sitting down. No, no, there were not many

5 people like that that you described. At that time I thought there were

6 not many people living in the houses; that was my impression.

7 Q. And when you entered the village somebody took your name. Was

8 that person in uniform or just dressed in civilian clothes?

9 A. What entrance are you talking about?

10 Q. You said when you came into the village, if I recall you

11 correctly, there was a point at which people were stopped and their names

12 were taken?

13 A. Yes, yes, I understand now. Yes, these were people -- as far as I

14 remember, these people were armed. I don't remember them wearing

15 uniforms. I'm not sure, but 90 per cent I could tell you that they were

16 in civilian clothes and armed. I could tell you that since the attack on

17 Haradinaj, it even also due to the situation before Haradinaj in Jablanica

18 there was -- it was said that it was a cell. Serbian forces never set

19 foot on Jablanica. Probably they tried to do that, but the local

20 population was convinced that Jablanica was reinforced, that there were

21 big military arsenals there. So this was the conviction of the people,

22 local people there. Probably thought that Serbia could attack other

23 villages but if they were brave enough, they should try to attack

24 Jablanica. That's how people thought.

25 Q. How many times were you in Jablanica yourself, sir?

Page 3817

1 A. I was there once when the meeting was held. I was then the second

2 time, and then I was -- yes, five times. I was there five times.

3 Q. Did you ever see any sign of a prison or prison -- or detention

4 place in Jabllanice?

5 A. Please, I don't want to justify or to lower the value, but there

6 was a prison in Dubrava in autonomous province of Kosova. "Prison" is a

7 very big word. I could not use the word "prison." There were, I don't

8 know, houses, detention or -- I never saw a prison. I'm convinced that

9 there was no prison. Probably there was something like a stable which

10 could be used for something, but I don't believe that there was. You

11 could see a prison in another place but not here. I never saw a prison

12 there.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Let's get out of these semantics. Let's just try to

14 find out whether there was a place where people were detained.


16 Q. My question very specifically and very simply was whether you saw

17 any place where people were detained, whether you saw any such place.

18 A. No. No, I haven't seen. I haven't seen there and in nowhere in

19 Dukagjin Plain. Only after the establishment of the barracks following

20 FARK arrival, we decided that a facility should be set up. This was our

21 initiative. We thought that as the war continued we decided about setting

22 up a facility. But then with the withdrawal of FARK forces from Prapaqan,

23 then this idea simply vanished.

24 Q. So you had planned to set up a place of detention at the FARK

25 facility at Prapaqan?

Page 3818

1 A. Yes, that's what we planned. The facility is there. I paid the

2 master, I gave him the money. We thought that we set up such a facility.

3 We thought about, you know, setting up military police, the courts, we

4 wanted to give the trade of an army, but there in the places you're

5 talking about, no, no, there was no such thing as you said.

6 Q. You withdrew, together with the FARK forces, on the 8th of

7 September. Is that correct?

8 A. True.

9 Q. And what happened to the weaponry that you and your colleagues

10 possessed at that time?

11 A. Tahir Zemaj was the commander of FARK forces. He brought an order

12 we approved. We had weapons but we had scarce ammunition. We had

13 received big promises but promises never materialised. We had also few

14 livelihood. We were surrounded from all sides. The population was also

15 gathered in certain places. We decided to withdraw as soon as possible

16 because we were under the target, we were the target of the paramilitary

17 Serbian forces and the Serbian police. Then we went to Strellc. We went

18 to Mulli i Hajrizve. There we were accommodated together with the

19 soldiers, and then we received the order from Tahir Zemaj to move on

20 towards the highlands. So we went towards -- and dispersed in coarse

21 highlands. Then women and children joined Tahir Zemaj. We were people

22 with uniforms, without uniforms, we had old people with us. It was a very

23 rugged terrain. It was highlands. So we --

24 Q. Sir, I really must ask you to pause and listen again to the

25 question. The question was simply this: What happened to the weaponry

Page 3819

1 that you and your colleagues possessed at that time? That was the

2 question I asked. Let me finish the question. Let me finish the

3 question, please. Did you leave it behind in Kosovo or did you take it

4 with you to Albania?

5 A. No, we left it behind in Kosovo.

6 Q. And you left it there for the Serbs to collect; yes?

7 A. We left it in the highlands of Rugova, in caves. So we had no

8 contacts. So we left it in highlands of Rugova. Everybody was looking

9 after himself at that time. I stayed in highlands of Rugova for one

10 month. I left Prapaqan barracks in September, but then I left Kosovo at a

11 later date.

12 Q. The point is this: These were KLA weapons but they were not left

13 with the KLA, were they?

14 A. As far as I remember, these were the KLA weapons but they were not

15 left in the hands of the KLA. As far as I remember, people took weapons

16 with them in highlands of Rugova and then they left the weapons there with

17 the idea that they would come back one day.

18 Q. Now, if I can move on then please --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, I'm looking at the clock.

20 MR. HARVEY: Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: If it would be a couple of minutes then we might

22 finish now; otherwise, we'll need a break.

23 MR. HARVEY: It's a little hard to predict a couple of minutes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then it if's -- if you can't give us a solid

25 prediction on that, I'd prefer to have the break now. We will resume at

Page 3820

1 five minutes past 11.00.

2 --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, please proceed.


6 Q. Mr. Tetaj, we've heard that Lahi Brahimaj was occasionally

7 referred to by the name of Maxhupi. Did you know anybody else who was

8 referred to by the name of Maxhupi? Perhaps I can help you refresh your

9 recollection. Did you know a man called Mustaf Bajrami, who was a

10 commander in Shaptej?

11 A. I know Mustaf Bajrami, but I don't know whether he was also known

12 by the nickname of Maxhupi. As a person, Mustaf, I know him.

13 Q. On the two occasions when you went to Jabllanice to inquire about

14 Skender Kuci, there was no sign of Lahi Brahimaj in Jabllanice at the

15 time, was there?

16 A. No. No, no, I had no contact with him and he was not present.

17 No.

18 Q. You were asked about him being appointed as deputy commander of

19 the Dukagjin Plain. It's correct to say, isn't it, that as far as you --

20 as far as your experience goes, he never functioned as a deputy commander

21 in that region at all, did he?

22 A. In the last meeting in Jablanica, it's true to say that he was

23 proposed by Rexhep Selimi that he be the commander of the operational

24 staff of the Dukagjini Plain, but he did not gain enough votes. And in

25 that function, Ramush Haradinaj was appointed and he was then appointed as

Page 3821

1 the deputy commander. And that didn't work. From that moment, we had no

2 other contact with his name or him. And then changes took place and

3 another one was appointed in that position.

4 Q. Were you ever aware that Lahi Brahimaj was, in fact, working with

5 and a member of the General Staff of the KLA?

6 A. At the time, no, I did not hear that he was member of the General

7 Staff. Later on I learned that, yes, but I wanted to say related to the

8 General Staff that I was, myself, a member but never came to know who the

9 other members were and never got in touch with them. That's why I called

10 it fictitious, because it did not operate in practice; that's why I

11 couldn't call it as a General Staff, I wouldn't call it that. And I

12 didn't hear about Lahi Brahimaj being a member. After the war, of course

13 I heard that he was a member of the Dukagjin region General Staff, but

14 during my stay in that area in the region, until the moment I left, I

15 hadn't heard that he was a member of the General Staff.

16 Q. I think we may be confusing two things. I'm not talking about the

17 Dukagjin area; I'm talking about the General Staff of the UCK for the

18 whole of Kosovo.

19 A. I don't know. I meant that when I said that. I don't know

20 whether he was a member.

21 MR. HARVEY: No further questions. Thank you.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

23 Mr. Guy-Smith, could you give me the source you said you would

24 need just a minute.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: May 8th, page number 3692, lines 18 through 23, I

Page 3822

1 referred to small group. The exact quote, I believe, is three to five

2 soldiers.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked you for it because 30 to 35 becomes 25

4 to 30 and three to five becomes two to three, which is not assisting the

5 Chamber.

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I certainly did not intend not to assist the

7 Chamber.


9 Then, Mr. Re, any need for re-examination of the witness?

10 MR. RE: There are several matters I wish to --


12 MR. RE: -- re-examine the witness on yes. Thank you, Your

13 Honour.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.

15 MR. RE: One second to get the lectern.

16 Re-examination by Mr. Re:

17 Q. Mr. Tetaj, I'm going to ask you some questions to clarify some

18 matters from questions asked of you by Mr. Emmerson, Mr. Guy-Smith, and

19 Mr. Harvey. The first one I wish to ask you about is a -- some questions

20 you answered yesterday to Mr. Emmerson in relation to the availability of

21 anti-tank equipment and whether the KLA had anti-tank equipment. That's

22 at 3745 of the transcript. And you'd said that there was no anti-tank

23 equipment available.

24 The question I want to ask you is: Did the KLA possess any

25 anti-armour weaponry such as RPGs, that's rocket-propelled grenades?

Page 3823

1 A. I understand. What you mentioned last is not a weapon used

2 against tanks. It's a small-calibre weapon. Against tanks we had

3 hand-held mortars in 300- and 500-millimetres, very little in quantities.

4 We had very little ammunition for them, so I can say that the -- we had

5 hand-held grenades which we used for 300, up to 500 metres' distance.

6 Q. RPGs, are they armour-piercing weapons capable of putting out of

7 action a light armoured vehicle, such as an armoured personnel carrier,

8 that's an APC?

9 A. Yes. It's not an armour-piercing weapon. If it's used properly

10 by a professional, it can destroy an armoured vehicle.

11 Q. To clarify your last two answers, did the KLA use hand-held

12 mortars against tanks and RPGs against tanks and APCs? Is that what

13 you're saying?

14 A. The hand-held mortars were used against tanks. We had them, and

15 they were to be used for a distance between 300 and 500 metres.

16 Q. And how effective were they against tanks?

17 A. If a hand-held mortar is used within this range, it is an

18 effective weapon.

19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: That was only one part of your question, wasn't

20 it. You also were referring, Mr. Re, to RPGs?

21 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 Q. And what about the RPGs, tell us about the effectiveness of those

23 against either tanks or APCs.

24 A. It may be used against the armoured vehicles but not against

25 tanks. They are used by the -- against the infantry, against observation

Page 3824

1 posts, and against the infrastructure installations.

2 Q. And just to ensure that what you're saying is completely clear,

3 are you saying that the KLA possessed and used RPGs? When I say "the

4 KLA," I mean operating within the Dukadjin --

5 MR. EMMERSON: Just for the sake of clarity, these questions

6 emerge from a passage in the statement that Skender Rexhahmetaj put to

7 this witness in relation to the 23rd June minutes. If questions of this

8 nature are to be asked in relation to that minute, then some time frame

9 needs to be put on the question and the answer.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.

11 MR. RE: I was cut off in midsentence, as I was about to say in

12 the Dukagjin area in the period in which you there until you left in

13 September 1998 --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I think you may have --

15 MR. EMMERSON: I'm happy with that as a first question but the

16 real question that one needs to know the answer to is was there on the

17 23rd of June and then --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- what we -- let Mr. Re put his questions to

19 the witness. Let him finish his questions first before there's any

20 intervention, and then if there's any need for further questions we'll see

21 whether Mr. Re puts them to the witness or you have an opportunity to do

22 that later on.

23 Mr. Re.

24 MR. RE:

25 Q. Do you follow the question?

Page 3825

1 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you'll repeat it, Mr. Re --

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: -- whatever kind of confusion.

4 MR. RE:

5 Q. Are you saying the KLA possessed and used RPGs, that is, the KLA

6 in the Dukagjin area, until September, 1998, when you left?

7 A. They had, but they were of a smaller calibre, 60-millimetres.

8 Q. To be slightly more precise, did the KLA possess those weapons

9 around the time of the 23rd of June meeting?

10 A. I'm talking about the time when I withdrew, but when the FARK

11 forces moved in, yes, there were such weapons. But there were no such

12 weapons during the time of the meeting.

13 Q. Yesterday at page 3749 or thereabouts Mr. Emmerson asked you about

14 Exhibit P145, which is the minutes of the meeting of the 24th of June,

15 1998. And in response to a question from him about a military court you

16 said there was no military court in existence at the time.

17 In your statement of the 17th of April, 19 - sorry - 2007,

18 paragraph which is numbered 99 but follows 106 on page 28 in the English

19 you said: "I am not aware of any kind of disciplinary actions taken by

20 Ramush Haradinaj against his subordinates when they had misbehaved. I

21 know that Tahir Zemaj did take such kind of disciplinary actions against

22 his subordinates."

23 How was discipline enforced within the KLA around that period, and

24 that's the period which is reflected in the minutes of the 24th of June,

25 1998, meeting?

Page 3826

1 A. Tahir Zemaj as the FARK commander was stationed at Prapaqan. In

2 the framework of the operational brigades, we had appointed a person who

3 led the military police, who was also involved in the investigation of

4 things. And very often Tahir took -- declared disciplinary measures

5 against the FARK soldiers. We had the idea of forming a court, but that

6 one never existed. I also want to add that and I said that earlier today,

7 it -- the plan was underway to build a prison in Prapaqan. That was the

8 idea.

9 Q. Okay. I just -- if you could maybe assist by focusing on the

10 question which relates to how the KLA enforced discipline. You've given

11 evidence that you were a member of the JNA and you were aware of all the

12 disciplinary measures that existed within the JNA, military courts,

13 military police, orders, et cetera, et cetera. How did the KLA enforce

14 discipline against its members around that period?

15 A. I'm talking about one case in Prapaqan involving Tahir Zemaj, who

16 suspended a soldier from the army. So there was that case, suspension

17 from the ranks of the army. And he took that as a commander, that

18 decision as a commander.

19 Q. What about the KLA --

20 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I do object -- I do object to the form

21 of the question because it presupposes a distinction. And the witness's

22 testimony has already been that once the brigades were established, the

23 incident he has described and the disciplinary action he has described as

24 taken place. He's also given evidence, and the documents attest to this,

25 that FARK and the KLA were one force by that stage and under the rubric of

Page 3827

1 the KLA. So the underlying distinction that Mr. Re is seeking to pursue

2 of one disciplinary structure within FARK and one within the KLA is simply

3 not reflected in the witness's testimony at all. If there's a specific

4 question to be put about disciplinary measures in a particular group

5 within a particular subgrouping of the KLA at a particular location, then

6 that's a fair question to put. But as matters stand the premise from

7 which these questions are proceeding is that there were different armies

8 and the evidence of the witness is that by the time we reach this evidence

9 in the chronology, there weren't different armies.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Whether that's the testimony of the witness is a

11 matter of interpretation.

12 Mr. Re, can you meet without a ruling the concerns of

13 Mr. Emmerson? If not, I will give a ruling.

14 MR. RE: I actually hadn't finished my question. I was going to a

15 slightly different area and I think it will meet Mr. Emmerson's concern.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Then put a complete question to the witness.

17 MR. RE:

18 Q. Apart from that incident at the Prapaqan barracks -- at Prapaqan

19 involving Tahir Zemaj and the expulsion of a soldier from the army, were

20 you aware of any disciplinary measures taken against any KLA members

21 before you left the area in September, 1998, and I mean from the entirety

22 of the period in which you considered yourself to be in the KLA from May

23 to September 1998?

24 A. No.

25 Q. What disciplinary measures or -- existed within the KLA, if any,

Page 3828

1 in that period?

2 A. What I have explained so far with things which were in the course

3 of being shaped, but I don't know. I can't remember.

4 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown or displayed Exhibit

5 D38, which is the map on which he marked yesterday.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

7 MR. RE:

8 Q. There's several things I'd like to clarify from when you marked on

9 this map yesterday. I'll tell you what they are before you do anything to

10 it. The first one is the village of Maznik, the second one is the forest

11 of chestnuts, and the third one is the shaded area or hached area in which

12 you drew a circle. So the first thing I'd like you to do is, can you see

13 the forest of chestnuts on that particular map?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And can you see the village of Maznik on that area of the map?

16 A. The forest, no, but Maznik and Decan, yes.

17 Q. If we make the map smaller, will you be able to see the forest of

18 chestnuts? If we zoom out, I think.

19 A. We should have a look at another section of the map. It's not

20 here. If we minimise it, maybe we can get a better look.

21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a section which is here but

23 not all of the area.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I think D38 is the last-marked version of

25 this map, and I take it that unmarked, there's an earlier version, at

Page 3829

1 least there's the black marking. I don't know what the size of the map

2 was at that time. If that doesn't help us out, we either have to rely on

3 P10 or invite the -- invite the Defence to -- I do understand that P266 is

4 the -- and that -- yes, that should do -- is the map where only the

5 marking of the zones appear, that is with the 1, 2, 3, and 4. If we would

6 use that one, perhaps the witness -- or do you need this one?

7 MR. RE: Well, I actually wanted to use this one --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Another map --

9 MR. RE: If the map can't show both the forest of chestnuts and

10 Maznik, it's not going to assist.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Of course the problem is the witness could not

12 identify this before.

13 Is there any way -- is there any dispute about where the -- these

14 places are so that the Chamber could try to find it on the maps that are

15 already in evidence?

16 MR. EMMERSON: Maznik is straightforward and it appears, one can

17 see it on the map, to the west of Jablanica, just outside the area of zone

18 3, subzone 3. Does Your Honour have it on the screen now, the top -- very

19 top of the screen. If you see the circle around Dasinovac and the circle

20 around Jablanica, between the two is Maznik.


22 MR. EMMERSON: And the witness gave evidence yesterday that he had

23 intended to draw the black line of zone 3 to include Maznik because that

24 village was, in fact, within subzone 3. I'm less confident about the --

25 the other location that Mr. Re is looking for, the forest of chestnuts. I

Page 3830

1 think I know where it is, but rather than give evidence myself, that is

2 something I think --

3 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time we don't have to make a very complex

4 exercise to hear from a witness a geographical place and we could just

5 guide him to it but --


7 JUDGE ORIE: -- I've got no idea where the chestnuts are.

8 MR. EMMERSON: I think --


10 MR. EMMERSON: I think it's on the western side of the main road;

11 in other words, it's west of the main road near Decan, but I may be wrong

12 about that. In other words, it would be difficult to see it on this map

13 because --

14 JUDGE ORIE: . Yes. It's not.

15 MR. EMMERSON: -- this is focusing primarily on east of the main

16 road, but I may be wrong.

17 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have the larger map on the ELMO so that we can

19 use ...

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is a bit lost as far as the places are

22 concerned, Mr. Re, so it would certainly assist us if you would locate the

23 positions on the map and seek confirmation by the witness.

24 MR. RE:

25 Q. Mr. Tetaj, could you just -- you're looking at the computer

Page 3831

1 screen. Can you see the forest of chestnuts on the image which is

2 displayed on the computer which is D38, or do you need to look at the

3 large map which is to your right on the --

4 A. Not clear, but I can put a point where it could be, where it's

5 located.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Before you start marking, could you explain to us

7 approximately where you think it is?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but of course we --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Somewhere here.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Somewhere here.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you describe to us, is it --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a wider territory.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's the "150." This is the quote,

17 but Gjeravica, which is higher covers this, it's the height of 150.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Okay, Now, first of all give us some guidance. I see

19 on the map, I see, is it close to Junik, is it close to Decani, is it

20 close to where approximately --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Close to Decan.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Close to Decan. North, west, south, or east of

23 Decan?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] West.

25 JUDGE ORIE: West of Decan, and that's a very limited area. You

Page 3832

1 said it was the 150. Where do we find the 150?

2 MR. EMMERSON: Does Your Honour see the word "church"?

3 JUDGE ORIE: Oh, that's the 150, yes.

4 It's close to that place.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Near the church.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And this is the chestnut --

7 MR. RE: Yes. Can D38 be moved up any further? If it is --

8 JUDGE ORIE: No, the problem with D38 is that if you mark a map,

9 then you -- for once and forever you choose the size, the zooming in and

10 the zooming out. So if we want to have a larger map, then we have to go

11 back to P10 because this is --

12 MR. RE: Is that the limit of the one we are seeing on the screen?

13 JUDGE ORIE: Now we could look at the ELMO because there we have

14 the larger map. I see the witness is pointing at --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is where it is, right here.

16 That's where the forest of chestnuts is. This is the point where I'm

17 putting the pointer, this is where the forest of chestnuts is.

18 JUDGE ORIE: The witness points at a position immediately --

19 immediately west from Decan where the map reads "church 2645 (150)."

20 MR. RE: I think it's actually on the -- I think that can actually

21 be seen on the map D38. It's just outside -- just to the left of the

22 circle.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think it can be. Yes --

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Right here -- now it's bigger,

25 the map is bigger right now.

Page 3833

1 MR. RE:

2 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you to mark two things on this map which

3 will then get a new number.

4 MR. RE: So can we put it back to its original size --

5 JUDGE ORIE: At least zoom out a but, perhaps not all of its

6 original size.

7 MR. RE: I just wanted to display Maznik -- that's okay. That

8 will work.


10 MR. RE:

11 Q. So what I want you to do is, can you mark with a black X on that

12 map where the forest of chestnuts is. Just draw with a black X the forest

13 of chestnuts.

14 A. [Marks]

15 Q. Can you make it just a little bit larger.

16 A. [Marks]

17 Q. Can you see the village of Maznik to the right of the screen. I

18 just want you to -- if you need to extend the area which is subzone 3 to

19 include Maznik, can you just draw that boundary in and put a 3 in it as

20 well, please.

21 A. Yes, I will.


23 MR. RE:

24 Q. Thank you. Now, while we're still on that before --

25 MR. RE: Do you want to get a number?

Page 3834

1 JUDGE ORIE: No. I just wondered whether any further marking is

2 needed; otherwise, we'll ask the registrar to assign a number to the -- to

3 this map, which differs from D38 to the extent that additional black

4 markings are made on it.

5 Madam Registrar.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P268,

7 marked for identification.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

10 MR. RE:

11 Q. Just finally on this map, I just want you to clarify something

12 about the black hached mark where you drew a blue circle around -- just to

13 the left or west of the lake yesterday and you've drawn a blue circle

14 within the hached black area.

15 A. Yes, it's true that I circled it and I made a mistake, and that's

16 why I have hached it and made the explanations yesterday because this was

17 an area where the Serbian forces were deployed and stationed.

18 Q. And are you saying that means that you didn't consider that to be

19 within subzone 1 because the Serbian forces were there?

20 A. If you have it in front of your screens, it will be in this shape,

21 and the 1 -- subzone number 1 was here, but the part of Bitesh was a very

22 weak one and it does not belong to the subzone number 1.

23 Q. Can you give a time-period for when it was not part of subzone 1?

24 A. That was from the start until the moment I left the Dukagjin

25 region because it was a key position of the Serb forces, and they never

Page 3835

1 left that position because it was a strategic point from where they could

2 control villages of Dubrave, Baballoq, and Gllogjan. And from there these

3 villages were controlled by them, Baballoq, Gramaqel, and Dubrave.

4 Further, deeper, it was Prilep. That's how it was.

5 Q. Okay. I'll finish with that particular map, thank you. This

6 morning Mr. Guy-Smith asked you some questions about someone called Mete

7 Krasniqi around page 15 of the transcript. And just to clarify some of

8 the issues he raised, I just wish to take you to paragraph 27 of your

9 statement exhibited in evidence here, that's your statement under Rule 92

10 ter, which is Exhibit 265. I'll just remind you of what it says and I'll

11 ask you something.

12 Paragraph 27 says that: "When I asked Faton Mehmetaj about what

13 had happened to Sanja Balaj, he said she was suspected of being a spy and

14 collaborating with the state security and the MUP and that she therefore

15 had to be eliminated. He said that he had given the order to Mete

16 Krasniqi to arrest and eliminate her. Later on I met with Mete Krasniqi,

17 who confirmed to me that he had arrested and eliminated Sanja Balaj on the

18 order of Faton Mehmetaj. Mete Krasniqi was always wearing a black MP UCK

19 uniform, and everyone from the Baranski MUP [as interpreted] area knew

20 that he was a member of the UCK MP," meaning military police.

21 My question about that is: When was it that everyone was aware

22 that he was a member of the KLA MP and was wearing a black UCK uniform?

23 A. Everybody knew about it from the beginning until he left Kosova,

24 he was always wearing uniform and always wearing black civilian clothes.

25 He played the role of the military police; however, later I learned that

Page 3836

1 he was accompanied was Faton Mehmetaj. However, to answer your question,

2 from the beginning until the departure from Dukagjin, he was wearing a

3 uniform.

4 Q. You just said he played the role of the military police. Can you

5 inform the Trial Chamber what you mean by he played the role of the

6 military police.

7 A. He had a car. He moved around in the places I described. He had

8 no team. I saw him from a distance, I saw him passing. He acted like he

9 was independent, that's the way I wanted to describe it.

10 Q. Was he armed?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What with?

13 A. He had automatic weapons, to -- kind of Kalashnikov, 7.62

14 millimetres.

15 Q. Yesterday Mr. Emmerson asked you about Skender Kuci and what you

16 knew about him and the circumstances of his death. You gave evidence the

17 day before about being present when his body was exhumed from a place in

18 Jablanica. What was he buried in when the body was taken from the ground?

19 A. I didn't see the clothes. I saw only black colour, something -- I

20 did not see any clothes on him.

21 Q. Was the body just buried in the ground or was it buried in a

22 coffin or in clothes or a bag? How was it buried?

23 A. He was put in -- simply into the ground without coffin. He was

24 simply put into the ground. There was nothing there, there was no coffin.

25 Q. Just to clarify this, when you say you did not see any clothes on

Page 3837

1 him, are you saying that he was buried naked or you don't remember or

2 didn't notice clothes on him?

3 A. I saw the hand and the head and the chest. I don't remember

4 whether there was sheets. It was also at night. There was dust. I saw

5 only the hands, chest, and head. They were in black colour and he, as I

6 said, was buried simply into the ground without coffin.

7 Q. Something I want to clarify from testimony yesterday and the day

8 before related to young men from your village going to Albania to obtain

9 weapons. On Monday I asked you some questions, and that appears at page

10 26 of that day's transcript, and I asked --

11 JUDGE ORIE: In the final version we don't find the pages

12 anymore --

13 MR. RE: Right.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Would you have a page number? Or if you give one or

15 two words which are typical.

16 MR. RE: "How did they get the weapons back ..."

17 JUDGE ORIE: Not very typical words, but if there's any word

18 nearby which is more typical because "weapons" might --

19 MR. RE: "Inconvenient circumstances."

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

21 For the others, that's page 3622.

22 MR. RE: 3622. Thank you, Your Honour.

23 Q. The question I asked you was -- you were telling -- you were

24 telling us about -- or the Trial Chamber about Ramush telling you the

25 young people could go to Gllogjan and from there go to Albania and get

Page 3838

1 weapons. And I asked you: "Did any of those young men you sent go to

2 Gllogjan to get weapons?"

3 And you answered: "Yes, they did."

4 And then I asked you: "When did they go to Albania, in what

5 circumstances? How did they get the weapons back? Where did they return

6 to?"

7 And you answered: "As I said earlier, there was a group of young

8 men who we appointed from the village. They went to Gllogjan. From

9 Gllogjan they went across the border to Albania. They stayed for a few

10 days. They brought back some light weapons and brought them back with

11 them in very inconvenient circumstances at the time."

12 Now, yesterday Mr. Emmerson cross-examined you, and it was at page

13 24 of yesterday's transcript, and he asked you -- if I can find the

14 consecutive-numbered one in a moment.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Or a typical word will do as well.

16 MR. RE: "Courage." "People took the courage."


18 MR. RE: 3713.

19 JUDGE ORIE: That's -- yes, line 14.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. RE:

22 Q. Mr. Emmerson asked you about your contacts with Mr. Haradinaj, and

23 he asked you whether Ramush was involved in how to get the weapons.

24 And you said: "No, no, no. He was in Gllogjan. We were in

25 contact with Albania at the time. We sent the people across the border.

Page 3839

1 It was very, very risky. So these people took the courage and they went

2 there, so it was through the contacts we had with Albania at the time."

3 Now, I just want to take you to -- further to that to your

4 consolidated statement of 17th of April at paragraph 24 -- I'm sorry,

5 paragraph 39 of that statement, in which you said in relation to the

6 meeting with Ramush Haradinaj in mid-April, 1998 after you -- and then you

7 had gone back to your village, you said: "I was in charge of the HQ and I

8 was to be informed if something or someone was noticed. I also selected

9 five or ten people to go to Gllogjan in order to collect the weapons in

10 Albania. I remember the names of the following: Afrim Tetaj, Gani Gecaj,

11 Agron Tetaj, and Lan Gecaj. They told me afterwards that they had

12 travelled from Gllogjan to Albania and returned with weapons -- with the

13 weapons via Gllogjan to Donja Luka, each of them carried as many weapons

14 as they could."

15 I just wish to clarify the answer you gave to Mr. Emmerson in

16 relation to your contact with Ramush Haradinaj. Are you saying that

17 between your first meeting in about mid-April, 1998 and the meeting on the

18 26th of May, 1998, you didn't have any contact with Mr. Haradinaj but you

19 sent young men to Gllogjan, and from there they went to Albania to get the

20 weapons and then return to your village?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Again, then through Gllogjan returning? Is that --

22 because that's the evidence of the witness until now.

23 MR. RE: I'm not quite sure it was returning. I thought the

24 witness said that they came straight back to his village.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Let's ask the witness.

Page 3840

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I speak?


3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We could not have contacts with

4 Albania. When I mentioned Ramush, I referred to the first meeting where

5 he suggested where we -- what we should do, what we should do to cope with

6 weapons shortages. I mentioned Gllogjan because Gllogjan was an area

7 through which people could pass more freely; from there they could go to

8 Hereq, to Reka e Keqe, and then to the border.

9 So the people passed through Gllogjan, people passed through

10 Gllogjan. They went from there to the mountains. They were the people

11 who were brave, who had the courage; however, they did it under very

12 difficult circumstances. They came back through very many hardships. The

13 border was protected by Serbian forces, so they came at night. They came

14 on donkeys and horses with primitive ways also with big risks. They came

15 directly to the village then back. They came directly to the village.

16 They were tired, exhausted. They carried some light weapons. They came

17 back after a few days. You asked me whether we had contacts with them,

18 no, we could not have any contact with them during the time they were

19 away, because we had no means to have such contacts. This is my

20 response.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. I just wish to clarify something in the statement where you said

25 at paragraph 39: "I also selected five or ten people to go to Gllogjan in

Page 3841

1 order to collect the weapons from Albania."

2 Can you -- was it Ramush Haradinaj who suggested that they go to

3 Gllogjan in order to collect the weapons from Albania?

4 A. Ramush was the one who told us that they should go through

5 Gllogjan. That was also the most logical thing to do. They had no other

6 way to go, even if Ramush hadn't told us. That was the more accessible

7 way for us at that moment. This is what I wanted to tell you.

8 Q. Do you know whether those young men who went through Gllogjan on

9 the way to Albania to collect weapons met Ramush Haradinaj or any of his

10 KLA associates on their way through Gllogjan to Albania?

11 A. Probably. I have no information whether they met Ramush

12 Haradinaj. I cannot confirm this. I was not present. I don't know.


14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They didn't tell me.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Re, it's still unclear. You refer to

16 paragraph 39 of the consolidated statement. Let's try to clarify that.

17 Mr. Tetaj, in one of the statements - and I read that to you - you

18 say: "I remember the names of the following: Afrim Tetaj, Gani Gecaj,

19 Agron Tetaj, and Lan Gecaj. They told me afterwards that they had

20 travelled from Gllogjan -- "

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gani Gecaj.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That they had travelled from Gllogjan to Albania and

23 returned with the weapons via Gllogjan to Donja Luka."

24 Now you tell us that they came directly back to your village which

25 is Donja Luka, whereas in this statement you -- the itinerary on the way

Page 3842

1 back would be through Gllogjan to Donja Luka. That is not fully

2 consistent. Do you have an explanation for that?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I explained, I passed through the

4 most secure way. Then they came back probably from that route -- through

5 that route, yes, yes. But I don't know exactly. I'm not sure. I know

6 that they brought the weapons to the destination, to the village.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And whether that was through Gllogjan or not,

8 you cannot with certainty say whether or not through Gllogjan. And then

9 for also --

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not sure. I'm not sure.

11 Probably. They told me about the hardships, the difficulties, without

12 bread, the difficult terrain.

13 JUDGE ORIE: So that they came back directly to the village is --

14 you're not sure about that.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. RE: Would Your Honour just excuse me for one moment to confer

17 with my colleague.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Gjukaj. No, this should not

20 be Gjukaj here. The name should be Gani Gecaj.

21 JUDGE ORIE: This will all be verified. This is not the final

22 version, Mr. Tetaj.

23 Mr. Re.

24 MR. RE:

25 Q. Mr. Harvey asked you some questions this morning about your visit

Page 3843

1 to Jablanica and you referred to a meeting there. I just want to take you

2 to a paragraph of your statement of 17th of April, 2007, where you

3 referred to the meeting. It's paragraph 52, and you were asked questions

4 yesterday by Mr. Emmerson on Exhibit P142, which is the minutes of that

5 particular meeting.

6 At paragraph 52 of the statement you say: "The meeting was

7 attended by Ramush Haradinaj; me; and subzone commander Sali Veseli, who

8 was introduced by Ramush Haradinaj as a major, he used to be a captain in

9 the JNA; Rexhep Selimi; Faton Mehmetaj; and a person called Syle,"

10 S-y-l-e, "whose family name I don't know. There were some more people

11 attending this meeting but I do not recognise any of them and I do not

12 know their names. All the attendees were armed and wearing military

13 camouflage uniforms with UCK patches."

14 My question is simply this and it relates to what they were

15 wearing and what they were armed with. What -- you said they were wearing

16 military camouflage uniforms. What were they armed with?

17 A. You're asking me about weapons. I would like to clarify that Sali

18 Veseli was deputy commander. At that meeting, he was elected for the

19 first time as head of the operational staff of Dukagjin. So -- however,

20 he came there as deputy commander. Now, as far as the weapons are

21 concerned, somebody had a pistol. They wore uniforms. Somebody had

22 semi-automatic weapons. There were also people who were wearing civilian

23 clothes. I saw this person called Syle, I didn't know him.

24 Q. Your statement says that they were all wearing -- all the

25 attendees were wearing camouflage -- military camouflage uniforms. And

Page 3844

1 you're saying that some were wearing civilian clothes. Which people were

2 wearing civilian clothes or how many of them were wearing civilian

3 clothes?

4 A. Those who were wearing in civilian clothes, these were the people

5 who came and go. They were in civilian clothes. I didn't know who they

6 were and what were their positions, but those were present, they were

7 wearing military clothes.

8 MR. RE: Those are my questions.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

10 Mr. Emmerson.

11 MR. EMMERSON: Do forgive me. Two matters, if I may, Your

12 Honour. First of all, and I'm entirely in Your Honours' hands on this.

13 The witness in the markings that he's put on the map has circled an area

14 which on our map is shown as Bitesh, Bitesh.


16 MR. EMMERSON: But which shows up on the translation repeatedly as

17 the translation of Bektesh. Now, for my part --

18 JUDGE ORIE: I understood this to be the same.

19 MR. EMMERSON: They are. That's not a matter I need to pursue,

20 then.

21 Further cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

22 Q. The second matter is this, Mr. Tetaj. Can you listen to my

23 question before answering it because I want to put a number of matters to

24 you to see if you can clarify something for us, so pause until I finish

25 the question.

Page 3845

1 Yesterday afternoon I asked you some questions about the time when

2 Skender Kuci's body was dug up and about whether his body had open wounds

3 and whether the kidney was hanging out. And you said that you saw no open

4 wounds, that the body was intact, and that his kidney was not outside his

5 body.

6 Just a few moments Mr. Re for the Prosecution asked you some more

7 questions about the state of the body and you told him that the body had

8 been left in the earth rather than in a coffin when you dug it up. And

9 you told him you could see the hands and the head and you said you could

10 see the chest. And I just want to be clear. Were you able to see

11 sufficient of the upper part of the body to know that the kidney was still

12 inside? Could you see enough of the upper part of the body naked to be

13 able to say that the kidney was not outside the body and that there were

14 no open wounds in the kidney area?

15 A. When Prosecutor asked me, I described the moment when it was

16 opened. We had prepared a coffin and so we took the body and put the body

17 into the coffin. I did not provide this description when answering

18 Prosecutor's question, but when I -- we put the body, the body was

19 complete. There was no damage, it was simply a dead body, and as I said,

20 there was this dark colour on his body.

21 Q. But just to be clear, you were asked some questions about clothing

22 and you said that the chest was bare, as I understand it. Were you able

23 to see sufficient of the upper part of the body to know that there was no

24 wound in the kidney area and no kidney outside the body? Could you see

25 enough of the upper part of the body clearly to be able to express the --

Page 3846

1 or give the evidence that the body was intact in that area?

2 A. I say with full responsibility that the body of Skender Kuci was

3 complete. Now, you can ask me different questions, but the circumstances

4 were such. But the body was complete, hands, all body parts were there.

5 Q. Yes, yes. Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.


8 Further cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

9 Q. For purposes of clarity, based on a question and concern that was

10 proposed by the Judge, I'd like to see if we can get an understanding with

11 some precision to the best of your knowledge of two things. Is it fair to

12 say that the number of young men in the Black Eagles was some 24 to 30

13 people?

14 A. Yes, yes, for sure. I'm sure that these were the people.

15 Probably it could be less, I don't know exactly, but that unit had more or

16 less this number.

17 Q. Very well. And with regard to when young men were deployed for

18 action, is it fair to say that it was a small group, three to five

19 members?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Turning to another matter, if we could have --

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. Yes, there were no more people taking part. They always were in

25 small groups. This was due to security reasons.

Page 3847

1 Q. I'm going to turn to another matter.

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we please have P268 marked for

3 identification, the map, up on screen.

4 Q. Today in a question asked of you by Mr. Re, you marked with an X

5 the forest of chestnuts on this map. My question --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. My question to you is the following: Yesterday in your testimony

8 on page 3730 you were asked the following question and you gave the

9 following response.

10 "And finally, this was the shelling of Gllogjan something that

11 took place intermittently but consistently right away through from April

12 to September" was the question.

13 Your response was: "From April to September, yes, frequent

14 shelling. The artillery shells of the Serb army, they fell on the meadows

15 of Prekolluku and Irzniq. There were positions set up there" -- hold on,

16 sir. "And the electricity circuit which was supplying electricity to the

17 area was damaged from the forest of chestnuts."

18 My question to you is: Is the electricity circuit that was

19 damaged that you were referring to in your testimony of yesterday an

20 electricity circuit that was located in the forest of chestnuts where you

21 have placed the X?

22 A. No, no. When the put the cross was the place where they were

23 stationed for a long time. It was a key position for the Serb forces.

24 All along they had anti-aircraft artillery and infantry forces and

25 ammunition, and they used the artillery from there to bomb, to shell the

Page 3848

1 villages of Dubrava, Baballoq, and Gramaqel. And I said that there is a

2 13 and-a-half-kilometre distance, aerial distance, from there. The

3 electricity grid started from near Decan and it passed through Irzniq and

4 through the meadows of Aliqkaj and somewhere here the grid was cut off and

5 all the surrounding villages were without electricity.

6 Q. Can you mark on --

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm asking the Chamber if this is an appropriate

8 map to use or whether we should use a new map.

9 JUDGE ORIE: The first question is, are the details of the damage

10 to the electricity system, are they -- what's the relevance? I mean, the

11 Chamber is willing to accept the damage was done to the electricity supply

12 system.

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Even if we would not know exactly which --

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: If the Chamber's satisfied, then I'm happy not to

16 go into the world of maps, having watched what's happened before.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm done. Thank you.


20 Mr. Harvey, any further questions?

21 Judge Stole has one or more questions to you.

22 Questioned by the Court:

23 JUDGE STOLE: In answering one of the --

24 A. Yes.

25 JUDGE STOLE: -- questions from Mr. Guy-Smith today you stated at

Page 3849

1 line -- page 24, line 2 onwards: "I would like to declare again openly I

2 had contacts with Idriz Balaj but I never knew him as Idriz Balaj. He can

3 confirm it himself. I knew him as Toger and I knew that he did not come

4 from that region. His name Idriz Balaj, I read it, learned about it

5 later."

6 Now, in answering Mr. Re's questions about Toger or Togeri's

7 activities in the Dukagjin area, on Monday or earlier this week you

8 answered or you stated that you never knew that he was called Toger or

9 Togeri at the time. Can you reconcile these answers for me?

10 A. Yes, I'll explain. It's the opposite. I knew the nickname of

11 Togeri, but I did not know that Togeri was Idriz Balaj. And I learned his

12 real name from the books that were written after the war. It was then

13 that I learned what his real name was, where he came from. During the

14 first meeting, Ramush Haradinaj introduced him as Togeri, and then at the

15 time I thought it was a military rank.

16 JUDGE STOLE: So when you were introduced to him by Ramush

17 Haradinaj, he was introduced as Toger or Togeri but you didn't believe

18 that it was a name but a rank, wasn't it?

19 A. Yes. I assumed it was a military rank, and that's how I knew it

20 all along.

21 JUDGE STOLE: In this consolidated witness statement, there is one

22 passage that we have been coming back to a few times, it is paragraph 91,

23 from the interview with the investigator or with the Prosecution, with

24 OTP. Where the description of a former member of Toger's unit called

25 Astrit Berisha from the village of Pozare told me that Toger killed every

Page 3850

1 member of his unit that wanted to leave the unit in order to avoid them to

2 talk about things they had witnessed and actions they had taken part in."

3 Then in the next paragraph 92: "He told me they experienced

4 terrible things when serving in Toger's unit, but he did not tell me any

5 details," and so on.

6 When you gave evidence here in court, you have stated, among other

7 things, that everything bad that happened was attributed to Toger. And it

8 seems that you do not attach any importance or have any belief in the

9 truthfulness of this, as you have described it as hearsay evidence. Did

10 you state -- did you make similar statements to -- during the interviews

11 to the OTP or to the investigators, that you didn't really believe in

12 this -- in these statements?

13 A. I can't remember, other than what I have already said and I've

14 already explained that Togeri was a name and if anything happened, if

15 anything bad happened, the people thought Toger responsible; on the other

16 hand, if there was something good, there was also people saying it was

17 Toger responsible. So it was all hearsay and I have not seen anything

18 with my own eyes. I have nothing to add to that.

19 JUDGE STOLE: Thank you.


21 JUDGE ORIE: Judge Hoepfel.

22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: -- I think you were asked a different question. I

23 think you were asked if you stated that, that concern that this was only

24 hearsay also when you first made that statement. Do you remember the

25 question? Can you answer that question fully?

Page 3851

1 A. I can't remember such a thing.

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

3 A. Thank you.

4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Nothing further.

5 JUDGE ORIE: I have a few questions for you as well. You told us

6 about the availability of rocket-propelled grenades, RPGs, and hand-held

7 mortars, and you said they were not there at the time of the meeting,

8 referring to the meeting of the 23rd of June, but once the FARK had

9 arrived such weaponry was available. Now, could you tell us then what

10 made those weapons available between the 23rd of June and, as the Chamber

11 assumes, the 26th of June when the FARK at least is reported to have

12 arrived. But if you have another date, please tell us when did this

13 weaponry become available and how did it become available.

14 A. The question was related to the 23rd, but I was thinking about the

15 arrival of Tahir Zemaj and his forces. That's when the weapons were

16 available, were made available, and it was at -- Tahir Zemaj and his

17 soldiers who brought these weapons to the barracks.

18 JUDGE ORIE: They brought these weapons; that's how they became

19 available.

20 Then --

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: -- I have another question in relation to your

23 answers as to whether you knew about a prison or a place where people were

24 detained in Jablanica. You -- I understood your answers that you had no

25 clue about any detention facility or even -- in Jablanica?

Page 3852

1 A. That's true. I have not seen such a thing. I didn't see that

2 such a thing existed. People were talking about such a thing, but I went

3 there several times and I saw nothing.

4 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the question was not only whether you

5 had seen such a thing or -- but whether you knew about such a thing.

6 Could you tell us whether you knew about such a thing or you heard about

7 such a thing.

8 A. I heard, there were rumours, but I did not know, I didn't know.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check your answer in this respect.

10 You said you -- there were rumours. When asked about Skender

11 Kuci, you together with Ramush Haradinaj went to Jablanica. You there

12 gained information that Skender Kuci was abducted and that he should be

13 immediately released. Now, tell me what is the difference between rumours

14 and such direct knowledge of someone apparently informing you about

15 someone being abducted, detained, and where an order has been given to

16 release him immediately, by the way, an order which was not immediately

17 enforced. Is that a rumour, in your view, or is that information about

18 detention?

19 A. No. When I was told, I thought he was detained. And we went

20 there and Ramush said he must immediately be released. And the person we

21 talked to accepted that, but I did not see a detention facility. I

22 couldn't see anything of the kind.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When was this exactly in time, do you remember?

24 A. As far as I remember, it was sometime toward the middle or the end

25 of July when we first went there together with Ramush. It was July but I

Page 3853

1 cannot remember the exact date. I'm not sure. I cannot confirm exactly

2 when this happened.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, who did show you where Skender Kuci was buried?

4 A. In the morning we were in contact with Nazmi Ibrahimi, and he was

5 very concerned about what had happened. And I explained this earlier.

6 Then Ramiz Berisha, who was with me who was a relative of Kuci, and he

7 said that he wanted to rebury him in the cemetery of Dubovik and Nazmi

8 said, Yes, that's no problem.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Who showed you where near to the mosque Skender Kuci

10 was buried?

11 A. When we were stopped at the first check-point at the entrance of

12 Jablanica, there was some soldiers, guards. They told us, Carry on

13 straight, and then on the right-hand side at the foot of a mountain you

14 will see a torch being flashed and it's there that some people are waiting

15 for you. And it was night-time. It was midnight, the middle of the

16 night.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And you came back to get the body of the deceased,

18 Mr. Kuci. Is that correct? Who exactly told you that he had died and

19 that his body could be found in Jablanica?

20 A. Nazmi Ibrahimi told us.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Did he return any belongings of Mr. Kuci to members

22 of his family?

23 A. Not that night, but later the wife of Skender Kuci told me that

24 there was a sum of money that he was carrying in different currencies,

25 there was a watch, a ring, and a car. And she said, If you can bring me

Page 3854

1 the ring and the watch and I -- I told them -- she said that it would be

2 exactly like bringing him to me alive. Later, together with Ramiz, the

3 same person, I went to Jablanica - this was day-time. We met again with

4 Nazmi Ibrahimi and he gave me the ring of Skender Kuci. As far as I

5 remember, it was 1.600 Deutschemarks or there was some other currency as

6 well. But it was roughly 1.600 worth of Deutschemarks and the watch, and

7 I gave it back to Skender Kuci's wife. We asked about the car and we were

8 told that it was damaged, and he said it is possible to return it but the

9 car was never returned.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Was the car damaged -- were you told that the

11 car was damaged or that it was used for other purposes?

12 A. I never saw it myself, but I was told that it was painted in

13 camouflage and it had participated in various military operations and it

14 was completely destroyed. And they did not -- the family did not insist

15 any further on getting it back.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, did you ever ask why the body of Mr. Kuci

17 was not directly returned to his family? Why was he buried in Jablanica?

18 Did they ever explain to you why? Where you had asked about him several

19 times, where Mr. Haradinaj had ordered him to be immediately released, why

20 he was buried in Jablanica, not the place, from what I understand, where

21 he received medical care and where he died.

22 A. I can't remember asking these questions, but I knew that he was

23 from Lutoglava near Peje. It was an area dominated by the Serb forces and

24 there was no chance of sending him back there. So there was no chance of

25 asking the question, Why not send him back there? And the family in the

Page 3855

1 Dubovik village saw it more reasonable to bury him there, for the time --

2 for that time. But the will of his widow, the wish of his widow was

3 approved so that the body should be dug up and reburied in Dubovik.

4 Dubovik is not his home place, but it's -- there is a family connection

5 with Dubovik. I don't know whether it's -- he is an uncle or a nephew of

6 that family, I don't know specifically. It was a very short time we had

7 at our disposal.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I return to one of my earlier questions. In

9 your consolidated statement, paragraph 82, it reads: "Nazmi Ibrahimi

10 replied that he could not be released on that day due to his injuries

11 caused by the prison guards who caught him when he had tried to escape

12 from the prison. That was the first time that I heard about a prison."

13 Again my question: Is that rumours or is that direct, concrete

14 information about the existence of a prisons -- prison in Jablanica?

15 A. He said it, I cannot deny that, but I never saw it. With my own

16 eyes I never saw such a thing.

17 JUDGE ORIE: My question is not whether you saw it with your own

18 eyes but if these are rumours, or whether this is direct, concrete

19 information given to you about the existence of a prison, which apparently

20 is confirmed by what you later personally experienced in relation to the

21 fate of Skender Kuci.

22 A. This is what it is. This is what it was. That was what the

23 answer was, that I cannot confirm it. I could not confirm it.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You testified today about the Black Eagles and

25 the role they played, how welcome they were in villages in support of the

Page 3856

1 defence of the villages. We also heard evidence that in some of the

2 villages they would rather not see Toger or Togeri arrive because of his

3 list and because he wanted to go after certain persons. Now --

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour.


6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't believe that's what the evidence was. I

7 think what we heard was they did not want him to arrive because there

8 would -- he would bring the war with him.

9 JUDGE ORIE: I think about the list, but let me just find that

10 then before I continue. If someone could assist me with the list issue

11 then -- to find it. I previously had it on my screen but I've forgotten

12 to make a note. Yes, that was about the notebook.

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm not sure if the reference is at page 3671,

14 lines 15 through 22.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me just find that.

16 MR. EMMERSON: If it's any assistance --


18 MR. EMMERSON: -- I'm afraid I'm working from an uncorrected

19 transcript in the sense that it's not the final pagination, but the

20 word "welcome" and the word "target" will bring up a passage of transcript

21 not from yesterday but from the evidence in chief given on Monday --


23 MR. EMMERSON: -- which I think is the passage that Mr. Guy-Smith

24 has in mind and that I remember it was in answer to a specific question

25 from Mr. Re.

Page 3857

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'll try to find the word "welcome" on that.

2 MR. EMMERSON: It's the first -- I'm sorry, the second reference

3 to welcome, to the word "welcome" on that day.


5 MR. RE: It's on 3676.

6 JUDGE ORIE: 3676.

7 MR. RE: I also refer you to 3673, which is where the notebook

8 evidence came in.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, Mr. Emmerson was correct, it was the 3676

10 reference.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I found that, yes.

12 Yes. Perhaps we should be a bit more precise, Mr. Tetaj, on that

13 part of your testimony. You were asked about the list and whether there

14 were people wanted on that list. And -- and you said on the question,

15 Were there villages in the third and fourth subzone in which Toger and his

16 unit were not allowed access, you said: "Yes, it's true, especially

17 in Isniq [Realtime transcript read in error "Irzniq"] and in Bistrica" --

18 A. Isniq.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. "There were some people for whom Toger was not

20 very welcome so he is not welcome to go to these places. This happened

21 because they were afraid -- because they thought that if the Toger would

22 come and the Serb forces would come later and then the population would

23 become a target."

24 Next question was: "Were Toger and his men entering villages

25 looking for people who were wanted?"

Page 3858

1 The answer was: "Yes."

2 Next question was: "Was that why villagers prevented them, tried

3 to prevent them from entering the villages?"

4 And then you started explaining about others. The previous

5 commander you gave a name who was -- that there was another person before

6 Toger. Now, that picture, whether the fear came from rumours or from

7 facts is quite different from the picture you gave us today, which was

8 that Toger was a welcome support when a defence was needed against the

9 Serb forces. I'd like to hear a further explanation from you in this

10 respect because you gave two rather different pictures.

11 A. Yes, yes, I can clarify. May I?

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please.

13 A. When we were being attacked by the Serb forces, the arrival of

14 Toger with his unit was most welcome, and that was when we were being

15 attacked, when the Serbs were actively attacking. When there was calm,

16 the arrival of Toger might make him visible and the Serbian forces would

17 be attracted and would attack. In this context I meant that he was not

18 welcome, but his assistance was okay. But that was for as long as he was

19 not detected and followed by the Serb forces, because then the situation

20 would become more complicated. That's what I've said.

21 JUDGE ORIE: And that the civilian population would be targeted

22 and that there was a list with wanted people, what role did that play in

23 how welcome he was?

24 A. Let's be clear. This was at the beginning. The lists were not

25 drawn up by Toger. They were lists compiled by other people who wanted to

Page 3859

1 compromise those on the list, and they were coming from -- they pertained

2 to different political parties, and that was a way of compromising those

3 opponents who they did not like. That's how I saw it. This is as far as

4 I understand the situation.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said that -- in your consolidated

6 statement that based on what you heard during the time you served in the

7 UCK, Toger and his unit were responsible for the kidnappings and killings

8 of Albanians, Serbs, and Romas in the Dukagjin area. Kidnappings for what

9 reasons?

10 A. This is what I heard, these are rumours. I haven't seen them.

11 They were -- this was the opinion of the people. I haven't seen anything.

12 JUDGE ORIE: In your statement you also said the

13 following: "However, in the villages of the third and the fourth subzone,

14 Toger and his unit were not allowed access because the people were afraid

15 of him. He and his unit were known for entering villages, looking for

16 people who were wanted. That is why they had manned check-points and

17 gates at the entrances of the villages as well. Toger and his men were

18 known for their brutality."

19 That is quite different from what you just said, that people would

20 not welcome Toger because he would attract Serbian attention.

21 A. As far as I know, as far as I remember, I wanted to say exactly

22 what I told you. The truth is what I told you, to you. I don't remember

23 what you said. There is no case about which I could say that Toger was

24 responsible for. I told you only about the incident in Irzniq. This --

25 that was the only one, but I haven't seen anything. That's what the

Page 3860

1 people thought.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Then on -- one question. Could you please look at

3 tab 24 of the bundle that was given to you. At the very end of these

4 minutes it reads: "Rrustem Tetaj volunteered for Reka." Could you tell

5 us what that means.

6 A. This is the first time I hear about it. Reka is Reka e Keqe. I

7 don't know what it has to do with this. And with the person Mehmet Kodra,

8 I don't know this person either. It's not clear to me what is the reason

9 somebody has made such a note here. I don't know.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.

11 Have the questions by the Bench triggered any need for further

12 questions to the witness?

13 MR. EMMERSON: There was just matter I wanted to raise with Your

14 Honour, if I may, very briefly, and it relates to the arrival date in

15 relation to FARK.


17 MR. EMMERSON: Simply this: I think the evidence that we've heard

18 so far is that there were two stages in the arrival process; in other

19 words, arrival across the border and then arrival in this stage --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Most important for me was that where this weaponry

21 came from, whether that was on the 26th or the 28th or the --

22 MR. EMMERSON: May I just put one question to the witness --


24 MR. EMMERSON: -- on that issue.


Page 3861

1 Further cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

2 Q. Is it correct, Mr. Tetaj, that there was a period about a week or

3 so between the time when Tahir Zemaj first crossed the border into Kosovo

4 and the time when he took his men to the east side of the Peje-Gjakove

5 road and up to Isniq, about a week?

6 A. That's true, that's true. I know the house where he stayed in

7 Prapaqan, it was a private house; yes, it's true what he said.

8 Q. And so that would put their arrival in the Isniq-Prapaqan area

9 sometime during the first week of July?

10 A. I don't know the date, but surely yes. I don't remember the date.

11 Q. Thank you for that. The only other matter I wanted to raise very

12 briefly was --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --

14 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry -- timing.

15 JUDGE ORIE: If you look at page 3492, second line, you would see

16 that the arrival in Jasic village, which seems to have been the first stop

17 in the Dukagjin area, bears a rather precise date and that's of course not

18 perhaps the date on which one arrived in Prapaqan.

19 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Jasic is the first --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, yes.


22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm aware, but it's already in the Dukagjin zone,

23 it's close to Gllogjan, isn't it, although there are -- I must say there

24 are --

25 MR. EMMERSON: No, no, I'm sorry --

Page 3862

1 JUDGE ORIE: -- two Jasics.

2 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Because there's one --


5 JUDGE ORIE: -- I had in mind, but perhaps that could be

6 clarified.

7 MR. EMMERSON: No, I think it is absolutely clear, if I may

8 respectfully say so. It's the Jasic which is by the border that the

9 witness is plainly -- all witnesses -- well, I can tell you why, because

10 in the evidence of the witness that Your Honour I imagine is referring to,

11 which would be Witness 29 --


13 MR. EMMERSON: -- he speaks of Gjocaj, and if one looks at the

14 route in, it goes Gjocaj, Jasic, Junik, and it was still whilst they were

15 still in Jasic that meetings took place in Junik. And I don't think -- I

16 entirely understand the confusion.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let's not discuss it in front of the witness, and I

18 don't think the witness -- it makes that much difference for the testimony

19 we hear now but perhaps a matter to be clarified at a later stage.

20 Do you have any further questions?

21 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. There was just one matter I wanted to

22 raise if I could but --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm looking at the clock.

24 MR. EMMERSON: It will be very brief indeed.

25 Q. You were asked some questions by Judge Orie just a moment ago

Page 3863

1 about lists and about some of the things that you'd said in your witness

2 statements about lists. At paragraph 78 of your consolidated witness

3 statement, you are recorded as having said: "These lists were circulated

4 amongst the UCK village guards in specific villages that were sympathising

5 with the UCK. The guard -- the guards had to check the identities of the

6 persons who were travelling through their villages and to refuse access to

7 the ones whose names were mentioned on the lists. The purpose of the

8 procedure was to compromise or discredit the mentioned people."

9 Can I understand the position. Was there a time when guards were

10 being issued with lists of people who were considered potentially suspect

11 and who were simply to be refused access to villages where there was a

12 concentration of KLA soldiers because their entry would be considered a

13 risk to security? Is that the situation that we're to understand?

14 A. There were such a thing. There were lists given to the guards, as

15 far as I remember. This, yes, could be possible.

16 Q. Yes, thank you.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. If I might, Your Honour, on --

19 JUDGE ORIE: We have very limited time on the tape so --

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Page 69, the last line it says: "Yes, it's true

21 especially in Irzniq and Bistrica" and I'm not sure if it's Irzniq or

22 Isniq and I'm pretty sure that based on his previous evidence it would be

23 Isniq. I want to make sure, because it is a kind of detail that would be

24 of importance at some point in the future.


Page 3864

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: So I'm happy to ask the question.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

3 Further cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

4 Q. You mentioned with regard to the villages in the third and fourth

5 subzones the names of two villages. Could you please tell the Chamber

6 what those two villages are?

7 A. These are two villages, Irzniq and Isniq. Then there is largaz

8 [as interpreted] about -- they are 7 kilometres from one another. Irzniq

9 is on one side of Bistrica river and the other one is on the other side of

10 the river.

11 Q. And were you referring in your answer to Irzniq or Isniq when you

12 mentioned that village and Bistrica?

13 A. Isniq, I meant Isniq.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

16 If there are no further questions.

17 Mr. Harvey.

18 Mr. Re.

19 MR. RE: There's just one thing I want to draw Your Honours'

20 attention to.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Is it -- will it be a question for the witness?

22 MR. RE: It could for you, but if I could just direct it --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time and it's too much, I take it,

24 for interpreters, transcribers, so therefore --

25 MR. RE: I don't wish to ask the question --

Page 3865

1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. One second. Then we'll consider whether we

2 need -- still the witness, yes?

3 MR. RE: That's just in paragraph 90 of the consolidated

4 statement.


6 MR. RE: Where he says: "I know that Togeri had a notebook in

7 which the names of people were recorded of people he was looking for."

8 It's a matter if Your Honours wish to take it up. And secondly, I just

9 draw Your Honours' attention to the fact that the consolidated witness

10 statement of the 17th of April is in Albanian and the witness has signed

11 it in Albanian and in English and --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's not in evidence.

13 MR. RE: No.

14 JUDGE ORIE: The question becomes whether it finally should become

15 part of the evidence, but we don't have to discuss this in the presence of

16 the witness.

17 Mr. Tetaj, this concludes your evidence. I'd like to thank you

18 for having come to The Hague and I'd like to wish you a safe trip home

19 again.

20 We stand adjourned until 25 minutes past 1.00 and we'll deal with

21 a few procedural matters in the remaining 20 minutes.

22 --- Recess taken at 1.03 p.m.

23 [The witness withdrew]

24 --- On resuming at 1.26 p.m.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, I would like to go into private

Page 3866

1 session for a moment.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 3867











11 Pages 3867-3869 redacted. Private session.















Page 3870

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber has understood that in reducing the

12 list of MFI-pending exhibits that the parties are not fully prepared yet

13 for Andjelkovic. One of the other large portions that could be easily

14 reduced is -- are the -- if I could say so, the Zyrapi exhibits. And the

15 Chamber would like to be informed without discussing it at this moment

16 whether and in respect of which exhibits there are objections and perhaps

17 to have in one word what the type of objection is so we can prepare for it

18 and focus our discussions on the matter --


20 JUDGE ORIE: -- with full understanding, at least with some

21 understanding.

22 MR. EMMERSON: In one word, it will -- where there are objections

23 to the Zyrapi documents it will be where the witness has been shown a

24 document and says, I don't recognise the signature, for example. And some

25 of the material that was shown to him but which he didn't recognise or

Page 3871

1 couldn't comment on nonetheless remained in the bundle. So it's that type

2 of issue. We've written to the Prosecution on the day that he gave

3 evidence explaining not just the reasons but with a schedule of which ones

4 were the subject of objection and we are waiting for a response from

5 Mr. Di Fazio, who has been dealing with that. He hasn't responded since

6 we wrote to him.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber would -- if there is a possibility

8 that -- I take it that you identified the numbers.

9 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly, yes.

10 JUDGE ORIE: If you could communicate them informally to the

11 Chamber this afternoon --


13 JUDGE ORIE: -- so we can already prepare for it. And if you at

14 the same time would be in a position to have a conversation with

15 Mr. Di Fazio to see to what extent you could agree.


17 JUDGE ORIE: So we can focus our discussions exclusively on those

18 still in dispute.

19 MR. EMMERSON: May I -- I'll certainly do that. May I just

20 mention three matters so that Your Honours have them, if I may put it this

21 way, in your in-tray without dealing with them.


23 MR. EMMERSON: There are five exhibits in the cross-examination

24 bundle used with the last witness which remain to be marked for

25 identification, it can be done tomorrow, but I'm simply mentioning it for

Page 3872

1 the purposes of the record.


3 MR. EMMERSON: Secondly, we understand that a written report has

4 been requested from the Victims and Witnesses Service in respect of the

5 notes that Witness 29 was sent to retrieve. And again, at some point

6 that's an issue that will need to be revisited. We haven't received any

7 report, but my understanding is that the Chamber's request to the VWS is

8 that the Defence should be copied in on the report. I don't know if

9 that's right or wrong, but that was my understanding.


11 MR. EMMERSON: And thirdly this: I know that Your Honours have a

12 number of matters that you're currently deliberating upon. One is the

13 issue of the taping of proofing sessions.


15 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if I might just hand in for reading

16 overnight copies of correspondence received from the Prosecution in

17 respect of (redacted) -- can the transcript be redacted with that first

18 name, please, and --

19 MR. RE: The Trial Chamber has this. I forwarded it to the Trial

20 Chamber along with the Defence.

21 MR. EMMERSON: I want to just address this, if I may, very

22 briefly.

23 Your Honours, there are three transcript references which will --

24 in order to have the significance of it clear. Can I just give them to

25 you. 2292, line 25, in the evidence of this witness in chief, where in

Page 3873

1 answer to Mr. Re he denied any involvement in the police or the armed

2 services -- I'm sorry, I do apologise, 2256, lines 1 to 5 is the passage

3 in which he denies any involvement in the police or the Serb forces.

4 2259, line 1, to 2265, line 20, is the passage where he was

5 cross-examined by Mr. Dixon on the information that had been supplied by

6 Mr. Re in the letter, which turned out to be inaccurate when compared with

7 the tape.

8 And 2292, line 25 and following, was my request at the end that

9 Mr. Re listen to the tape of the meeting and compare it with his letter.

10 As I say, I don't want to develop that now, but may I invite Your

11 Honours to have, if you have a moment, to have a look at the

12 correspondence and the transcript references because they may have a

13 bearing on the utility of taping of proofing sessions.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.

15 If there's nothing else, I'd like to adjourn.

16 Madam Registrar, tomorrow morning, Courtroom II, 9.00. We stand

17 adjourned.

18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.39 p.m.,

19 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 10th day of

20 May, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.