Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3966

1 Friday, 11 May 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.

6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number

8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

10 Before we invite the Prosecution to call its next witness, I'd

11 like to go into private session for a second.

12 [Private session]

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Page 3967

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8 [Open session]

9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

11 Yes. Since some protective measures apply to the next witness,

12 Madam Usher, you are invited to pull the curtains down.

13 Mr. Guy-Smith.

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. Before the next witness, Witness 61, comes

15 to testify --


17 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- I do request that with regard to the manner of

18 examination, that the Prosecution - and I've spoken to Mr. Re about this -

19 be exceedingly careful with the use of leading questions. I do not intend

20 on interrupting the testimony of this witness at all by -- avoided by the

21 interventions but would request by virtue of the kind of testimony and the

22 nature of testimony that we're about to see and considering that the

23 Rules, as they exist, be particularly careful in this regard with the use

24 of leading questions.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I don't know how the rules on leading questions

Page 3968

1 are. The case law is perhaps not as settled as it may be in many domestic

2 jurisdictions, but, Mr. Re, you've understood the wish of Mr. Guy-Smith

3 that leading should be avoided to the extent possible.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: And that's particularly why I believe it's Rule

5 96, as it relates of our rules, Rule 96, which deals with the issues

6 concerning corroboration or the lack of necessity thereof.


8 Oh, you had not the rules on leading questions but the rules of

9 evidence in general terms under Rule 96?

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's correct.

11 JUDGE ORIE: That's understood.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 [The witness entered court]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness come closer to the

17 microphones, please.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please the assist in coming a

19 bit closer to the ...

20 Witness, I will call you Witness 61 because we will not use your

21 name in this courtroom; that is part of the protective measures that have

22 been granted in respect of you. Witness 61, before you give evidence, the

23 rules of this court require you to make a solemn declaration that you will

24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Since I

25 understand that you can't read - is that correct?

Page 3969

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I cannot read.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Therefore I will give you the text of that

3 solemn declaration and I'd like you to -- I'd invite you to repeat my

4 words.

5 I solemnly declare -- could you please repeat these words.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- that I will speak the truth --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I will speak the truth --

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the whole truth, nothing else but

11 the truth.

12 JUDGE ORIE: This solemn declaration means that whatever answer

13 you give should be not only in accordance with the truth, but also

14 everything -- you don't have to repeat my words anymore. I'm just

15 explaining to you what it means; that is, that all your answers have to be

16 fully truthful. We will not use your name, and if there are any questions

17 which might identify you or your answers might identify you, then the

18 party that is examining you will ask to go into private session.

19 The outside world cannot see your face. They can hear what you

20 say but they can't see your face.

21 Mr. Re, are you ready to examine the witness?

22 MR. RE: We'll have to move into private session for the beginning

23 of the examination.


25 We'll move into private session.

Page 3970

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Page 3971











11 Pages 3971-3974 redacted. Private session.















Page 3975

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3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.


6 MR. RE: Can we go back into private session for one moment. I

7 apologise.

8 [Private session]

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. Now, Witness 61, a moment ago I was asking you about --

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.

Page 3976

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do apologise. If we could go back into private

3 session for a moment. I do apologise --


5 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- I do apologise. Something just dawned on me.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Chamber would appreciate if not more than

7 five times in two minutes we have to change from private session to open

8 session.

9 [Private session]

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Page 3977

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

4 (redacted)

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6 (redacted)

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

9 MR. RE:

10 Q. Witness 61, a moment ago I was asking you about your seeing the

11 KLA when you went to visit your brother-in-law in the village. How did

12 you know they were KLA?

13 A. The way they were dressed.

14 Q. What were they wearing?

15 A. They had KLA uniforms.

16 Q. How did you recognise them as KLA uniforms?

17 A. Can you ask me again.

18 Q. How did you know that they were KLA uniforms, as distinct to, say,

19 Serbian uniforms?

20 A. I don't know the Serbian uniforms, but I know how KLA uniforms

21 were. I remember them. I know how they were.

22 Q. What were these KLA soldiers doing when you saw them in the

23 village?

24 A. They went around to the place. They did nothing.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, perhaps as far as the uniforms are concerned

Page 3978

1 we could invite the witness to describe them.

2 Could you tell us -- you said you know how KLA uniforms were.

3 Could you describe them to me. What colour?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in a colour of -- I

5 didn't -- I don't know exactly because I was not very much interested in

6 colours.

7 JUDGE ORIE: What else could you then tell us about these

8 uniforms?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had something on the sleeves.

10 I don't know how you call them. I don't know how you can describe them.

11 JUDGE ORIE: What size approximately was it? That there was on

12 their sleeves.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not big. It had them exactly

14 here. It was not big.

15 JUDGE ORIE: When you said "exactly here," you were pointing at

16 the upper arm. Is that correct?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the right or on the left side. I

18 was not interested to know exactly. Of course I was looking after my own

19 business, so I took no interest to see where it was.

20 JUDGE ORIE: And what you saw, could you indicate what size it

21 approximately was, perhaps with your fingers like this, like that.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Something like this.

23 JUDGE ORIE: The witness with her hands makes a gesture of

24 something, let's say, 10 to 15 centimetres, something there of a guide.

25 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

Page 3979

1 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown Exhibit P9 while that's

2 coming up on the screen --

3 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps we first ask the witness about whether she

4 remembers the colour of what was on the sleeves.

5 Do you remember what you said was on the upper arms? What colour

6 was it, do you remember?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was in black letters.

8 JUDGE ORIE: And apart from the letters --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yellow in black letters.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Just yellow or --

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think black, yellow then.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

13 MR. RE:

14 Q. Are you able to tell us what the label said, what letters they

15 were?

16 A. I don't know. Maybe "UCK," I'm not sure.

17 Q. Did the uniforms have any patterns on them?

18 A. Yes. They were in camouflage.

19 MR. RE: Can the witness had please be shown Exhibit P9.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

21 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to rise and I hope I'm not being unduly

22 pedantic, but the witness has given evidence in respect of her

23 recollection of the colour and lettering on the patches, which does not

24 accord with what Mr. Re is about to show her as far as I understand it.

25 And if one is asking about leading questions to put to a witness, a symbol

Page 3980

1 which has not been put to her before and which is inconsistent with

2 evidence that she's given in chief in order to seek a recognition of it,

3 it is not in our submission the appropriate way of dealing with the

4 matter.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson [sic], was it put to the witness before?

6 Was what we see on P9, which is not yet on our screen and should not be

7 on this screen at this moment --

8 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated]

9 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon? Well, then we have ...

10 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

11 JUDGE ORIE: I should have been clearer in instructing the

12 registrar that where there was an objection -- of course, not every time

13 when something is put on the screen my explicit permission is required,

14 but I should have been more cautious here that it should not be put on the

15 screen.

16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'd rather taken Your Honour's indication to

17 Mr. Re that a foundation ought to be laid before the image was put to be a

18 pretty clear indication that the way the matter's been dealt with is the

19 way it shouldn't have been -- been dealt with. But I'm not -- I'm going

20 to withdraw my objection because the -- as we say in England, the horse

21 has bolted and there's no point trying to close the stable door.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, you may proceed.

23 MR. RE:

24 Q. Can you have a look at the image on the screen in front of you,

25 Witness 61. Do you recognise that image?

Page 3981

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please look at the screen again, I see

2 you're not looking at the screen, and could you tell us whether this is or

3 is not what you saw on the upper arms of --

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's UCK, it's -- that's UCK. I

5 didn't see them exactly. This is in red and black and then the letters

6 were -- are here in yellow. I didn't see them exactly because I didn't

7 have much time, I didn't go out of my house frequently.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, please proceed.

9 MR. RE:

10 Q. At the time when you saw KLA soldiers in the village, were there

11 still Serbian police in the village?

12 A. Yes, they were there, but then they withdrew.

13 Q. Do you know when they withdrew?

14 A. I don't know. I don't know the time. I only know that they

15 withdrew from the village. I don't know where they went.

16 Q. Can you say about how long before you and your family left the

17 village the Serbian police withdrew?

18 A. They withdrew before.

19 Q. Do you know why they withdrew?

20 A. I don't know really. I only saw them withdrawing. I don't know

21 the reason.

22 Q. You said a little earlier, Witness 61, that your husband told you

23 about KLA soldiers in the village. What did he tell you?

24 A. When he went out to work he saw them, and he knew the Togeri. I

25 didn't know him. He described me, he talked to me about the Toger.

Page 3982

1 Q. What did he tell you about this Toger?

2 A. When we came home, he took us, and then he told me that this is

3 the Toger, because I didn't know him.

4 Q. I'm going to ask you about one night when you were at home in your

5 village. I'm going to ask you some questions and I want you to slowly

6 tell the Trial Chamber about what happened that night. And the first

7 thing I'm going to ask you is: Can you try and remember when this was?

8 A. I don't know the date when it happened. It was at 12.00 at

9 night. Toger came with four other people. He came to the door. My

10 father-in-law came up and opened the door for them. He opened the door.

11 They came inside. My father-in-law asked them, What do you want? They

12 asked him, Where is your son? My father-in-law told them that he is

13 sleeping. Then they took us. They waited for us until we dressed. Then

14 they came inside the house again. They told the father -- my

15 father-in-law that, You should not expect that they will send us back. So

16 they take us then to the staff --

17 Q. Thank you --

18 A. -- they put my husband --

19 Q. I'll just ask you to pause there and I'll come to that in a

20 moment. I just want to make sure we get some of the details of the story

21 clear for the Judges. Okay?

22 Now, I just want to go back to when it happened. You said you

23 don't know the date. What time of year was it?

24 A. Well, I don't know. I really don't know. It should have been

25 1998/1997, I don't remember dates. Most probably it was 1998 or maybe

Page 3983

1 1997.

2 Q. What time of year was it? You've got four seasons, summer,

3 winter, autumn, and spring.

4 A. No, how can I say? It was spring-time. It was not cold. It was

5 hot.

6 Q. What year did you leave the village?

7 A. I think it was 1998.

8 Q. How long before you left the village did this happen? Or how long

9 after this happened did you leave the village, to put it the other way

10 around.

11 A. I think it was two weeks after this happened, I think so, after

12 two weeks we left the village. Maybe three weeks, I'm not really sure

13 about it.

14 Q. Okay. You said -- I'll just stop you there for a minute?

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.

16 MR. RE: Yeah.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Can I ask one additional question.

18 You earlier told us that the Serbian police withdrew from the

19 village. Now, this event you're describing, was that after or before the

20 Serbian police had withdrawn?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, this happened after they

22 withdrew, after the police forces had withdrawn.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

24 MR. RE:

25 Q. And was it the same year that the Serbian police forces withdrew?

Page 3984

1 A. I don't know. I don't remember the exact date when they withdrew.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour, I do apologise for

4 rising. I've been informed that there may be some difficulty with

5 translation with regard to page 17, line 13, in terms of whether or not

6 the statement made was whether or not to expect anybody back or not, which

7 I think is of some importance. I'm wondering whether or not we can get

8 that cleared up.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there's a translation problem, I think,

10 Mr. Re, could you please then clarify that.

11 Perhaps again ask the witness what they told the father-in-law at

12 that occasion.

13 Witness, could you - because there might be a translation

14 problem - could you again tell us what those who came at your door-step at

15 night, what they told your father-in-law.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He told the father-in-law -- well,

17 now I'm not able to recall quite well, but they said -- my father-in-law

18 asked, What do you want my son for? And they said, We have to ask him

19 about something. And the old man said, If you need him for something,

20 here I am for you. You are Albanians, I am Albanian. And they didn't

21 care what he said. He went inside the house. We were inside. We were in

22 bed. We got up. Then they went out. We dressed up and we went out as

23 well. Well, I'm not recalling things properly anyway.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now in your earlier answer there was something

25 in it about sent back, that's at least how it was translated to us. It

Page 3985

1 reads: "You should not expect that they will send us back." Could you

2 tell us exactly what you meant with the words you then spoke.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, I told him -- now that

4 they took us away, do not expect us to be alive and come back home.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That's what you told your father-in-law. Is that

6 what you're telling us?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this is not what I said to my

8 father-in-law, but I was just thinking in that way, that I was not

9 expecting myself to go back alive home.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

11 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

12 MR. RE:

13 Q. Why weren't you expecting yourself to get back alive home?

14 A. Well, this is what I heard, I had heard. This is what I thought.

15 I've never seen what has happened, but I just had heard about things,

16 about the others, and I thought, Well, me as well, I'll not be able to

17 come back home. Well, it was only God saving us and we could come back

18 home with our children, to our children.

19 Q. What things had you heard about others that made you think that

20 you may not come back home?

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm rising to interpose an objection at this time,

22 of hearsay.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, the objection is denied, but you are invited

24 to explore as good as you can the sources of the hearsay. Please proceed.

25 MR. RE:

Page 3986

1 Q. I'm going to ask you about what you had heard, and I want you to

2 tell the Judges who told you whatever you'd heard.

3 A. My husband, he had heard from others and he came home, told us

4 about what he had heard.

5 Q. What did he say he had heard and whom did he say he had heard it

6 from?

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: If -- well, I make the same -- make the same

9 submission, and I think perhaps it would be appropriate to reverse the

10 order of the questions as to make a determination of who was the source

11 first before we get into what was said because it may -- it may be of --

12 of help to the Chamber to make a determination of how many sources out --

13 were coming, and whether or not this is in fact attributed to any

14 particular individuals.

15 JUDGE ORIE: The sequence of questions, we'll leave that to Mr. Re

16 at this moment, at least if he explores as good as he can the issues; that

17 is, who was the source, if it's, of course, a second- or third-hand

18 hearsay then of course the Chamber would be very cautious in interpreting

19 it.

20 But, Mr. Re, you may proceed.

21 MR. RE:

22 Q. You were telling the Court that your husband had told you things.

23 I want you to tell the Court what he had told you and who he said had told

24 him.

25 A. Well, I don't know who had told him, but what I know is that he

Page 3987

1 had told us about people being killed, that he had done massacres, this is

2 what he had heard while he was moving around in the village and this is

3 what he told us at home. That's why we were scared of him and that is why

4 we were thinking that we wouldn't be able to come back home.

5 Q. When you say "he had done massacres," who did your husband had --

6 was the "he" who had done massacres?

7 A. Well, it was about Toger.

8 Q. What did your husband tell you about people being killed or what

9 he'd heard about people being killed?

10 A. Well, I don't know what to say exactly. I don't know really how

11 they had killed people. This is all what he had heard about these people

12 being killed, that's all. In fact, I was not interested to know more

13 about things. He was just caring about his business and I was caring

14 about things at home. We were many people living in the same house, and

15 we were very scared all the time.

16 Q. What were you scared of?

17 A. Well, we were scared of him. Before -- before we were taken away

18 by him, we were not afraid; but after that moment, we kept being scared

19 all the time.

20 Q. What was -- what was Toger and the four men he was with wearing?

21 How were they dressed?

22 A. They were dressed in black uniforms.

23 Q. Did they have any weapons?

24 A. Yes, they had.

25 Q. Can you describe the weapons they had?

Page 3988

1 A. Well -- well, I've seen them when they came in the house. They

2 had knives, they had pistols, they had a knife, a rifle.

3 Q. Before when you were talking about KLA soldiers you told the

4 Judges that they had something on their sleeves. Did these five men

5 have --

6 A. Yes. They had the insignia of the KLA, the UCK.

7 Q. Where did they have it?

8 A. They had them on the arm.

9 Q. Can you remember which part of the arm, upper arm, lower arm,

10 middle arm?

11 A. On the upper arm, on the right or left, I can't remember quite

12 well, because it was dark and I couldn't see them quite well and I was

13 very scared all the time.

14 Q. How did they treat you, these five men when they came to the

15 house? How did they behave towards you and your family?

16 A. They didn't say anything. My husband -- they took away my

17 husband. Two people with him and two other people were with me and they

18 took us to the headquarters.

19 Q. What did they do to your husband? You said they took him away.

20 What did they do to take him away?

21 A. Well, they tied him with his hands behind and they tied him to the

22 well. They also took me.

23 MR. RE: Can we just move into private session for one moment,

24 Your Honours.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.

Page 3989

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Page 3990

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23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

Page 3991

1 MR. RE:

2 Q. A moment ago, Witness 61, you said that the -- these five men,

3 Toger and the four others, took you to KLA headquarters. Where --

4 describe what the KLA -- describe what this location was. Was it a

5 building? Was it a farm? Was it a house? That sort of thing.

6 A. No, it was a house. There were Albanians living there. It was a

7 one-floor house. A woman used to live there, but she had left her house

8 and she was not living there any longer. She had left the country and she

9 was living abroad, and this is where they took us.

10 Q. You said they'd tied your husband's hands behind his back. What

11 did they do with your husband when you got to this house?

12 A. They sent him to the well, and when I was inside they asked --

13 they asked me some questions, Toger asked me.

14 Q. Whereabouts inside the house was this that Toger asked you the

15 questions? Where did you go?

16 A. I was in the room, inside the room. It was the room where he was

17 staying. He invited me to sit down. He was asking whether my husband

18 was -- had been working with the police forces, collaborating with the

19 police forces; and I said no. We -- I told him we've been always on good

20 terms with Albanians.

21 Q. All right. When you went into that room, was there anybody else

22 in the room when you went in, apart from you and Toger?

23 A. It was only me and Toger. There was another person staying at the

24 door, and then he said, this person, You may leave. If I need you, I will

25 call you back.

Page 3992

1 Q. How long did Toger spend asking you questions, such as whether

2 your husband had been working with the police forces or collaborating with

3 them?

4 A. Well, I don't remember well. It should have been around half an

5 hour asking me.

6 Q. You said he invited you to sit down. Tell the Trial Chamber what

7 furniture was in that room.

8 A. There was a table in front of him, chairs, a TV set, that's all.

9 Q. Why do you think he was staying in that room?

10 A. There was a bed as well. I don't know why he was there. This is

11 the room he was staying. This is all I know. I don't know more.

12 Q. When he was asking you these questions, where was he and where

13 were you in the room?

14 A. He was on the chair on one side, and I was sitting on another

15 chair on the other side. He was keeping down notes.

16 Q. What did he do with these notes?

17 A. I don't know. He simply wrote down something. I don't know what

18 he wrote. He asked me about whether we had links with the police or not,

19 and maybe he wrote about these things. I don't know.

20 Q. Did he show you the notes?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did he ask you to sign anything?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. Did Toger have any weapons when he was questioning you in that

25 room?

Page 3993

1 A. Yes, he had but he removed them and he put them on the table. He

2 had the knife, he had a pistol, and then he took them and put them on the

3 table. Then there was a guard, and he told him to bring him a wooden

4 stick. And then he took the wooden stick and he put it on the table.

5 Q. What did the guard do after Toger asked him to put the wooden

6 stick on the table -- after he put the wooden stick on the table, I'm

7 sorry?

8 A. The guards brought it and went away.

9 Q. What were you wearing that night?

10 A. Me, I was wearing a short dress, also a blouse and a pair of

11 sandals, nothing else.

12 Q. Were the lights on or off in the room?

13 A. No.

14 Q. What do you mean by "no"?

15 A. Yes, the lights were on.

16 Q. Did they go off at any time?

17 A. When he began to -- to do - how can I put it? - it's very hard for

18 me to talk about it. When he began to take me -- when he took me to the

19 bed, he took the light off. Then he undressed me. He told me to go to

20 the bed.

21 Q. How were you feeling when he did that?

22 A. I understood that that was the purpose of him taking us. I

23 thought that was exactly what he took us for.

24 Q. Why did you think that?

25 A. He said that I should undress, so I realised that that was the

Page 3994

1 purpose of him taking us.

2 Q. What was he wearing when he took you to the bed?

3 A. Black dresses. He took them off. He undressed, and he began then

4 what he wanted to do, to have fun on me. He did have fun as much as he

5 wanted. I did not dare to scream. I did not dare to say that this was

6 happening. I was so scared, I could not shout, I could not scream; I

7 simply trembled. He asked me why I was shivering. I said -- I told him

8 that I was cold. Then he began what he wanted to do.

9 Q. Now, Witness 61, I understand it's very difficult for you to tell

10 the Trial Chamber what he did to you, but I'm going to ask you to tell the

11 Trial Chamber with as much detail as you can remember what he did to you.

12 A. First he began to kiss me on the neck. Then he touched my

13 breasts, and then he did what he wanted several times. Then he had all

14 the fun he wanted.

15 Q. Now, you said you were undressed and -- were you on the bed?

16 A. Yes. He told me, Get up and go to the bed, and I went to the

17 bed. And then he came and he did what he wanted to do. The same thing

18 happened like it happens with your husband -- with my husband.

19 Q. When you were on the bed, were you lying?

20 JUDGE ORIE: May I first try to find out to what extent is the

21 Defence willing to accept that not every single detail will be repeated

22 here as we find it in the statement. Of course, if there will be

23 cross-examination on details, then of course Mr. Re should elicit the

24 details.

25 Mr. Guy-Smith.

Page 3995

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't believe there's a necessity to go through

2 every single detail.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could -- would it be acceptable for you if

4 Mr. Re would just briefly summarize what he finds in the statement, put

5 that to the witness, and ask her whether that's what happened?



8 MR. RE:

9 Q. I'm -- Witness 61, I'm going to read something from the statement

10 you made to the Prosecutor last year about what you said happened, and I

11 just want you to listen and tell me if it's correct and, if there's

12 anything that needs correction, you can do so. Okay.

13 What you said was -- this is when you were on the bed at paragraph

14 7: "He asked me why I was shivering. I said because I was cold. He

15 started to kiss my neck. He placed his hands on my breasts" --

16 A. Yes, cold.

17 Q. "He started to kiss my neck. He placed his hands on my breast and

18 my waist. He forcibly parted my legs and put his penis in my vagina. I

19 had my eyes closed. I was scared and thought I was going to die."

20 A. Yes, exactly.

21 Q. "He ejaculated in my vagina. He then waited a while and raped me

22 again."

23 A. Yes, yes.

24 Q. "I remember that he placed his penis in my vagina at least one

25 more time until he ejaculated again."

Page 3996

1 A. Exactly.

2 Q. "He also made me lie on my stomach. He placed his penis in my

3 anus and kept it there until he ejaculated."

4 A. Yes, exactly.

5 Q. "In between the times that he raped me, he stayed on the bed

6 alongside of me. I remained on the bed, very much afraid that he would

7 kill me."

8 A. Yes, exactly.

9 Q. "Finally, after about one and a half hours he told me that I could

10 get up off from the bed. He told me not to tell my husband what

11 happened."

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. "I remember that I used my clothes to wipe the sperm from the

14 rapes off of my thighs and legs."

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. "I then got dressed."

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Now, what happened after you got dressed? How did you leave?

19 A. Afterward, he told me to go out. I dressed and I went out. They

20 took my husband and brought him in. Then he told me not to tell him

21 anything. I didn't tell him anything until we went home. Then I told --

22 at home I told my husband, my father-in-law, and everybody else. So we

23 went home. When we went home, I told what had happened to my

24 father-in-law, to my mother-in-law, to every people in the family. I

25 described them what had happened to me. It was something very bad that

Page 3997

1 had happened to me. Then the next morning at 5.00 in the morning, my

2 father-in-law went to the headquarters. He told them what had happened to

3 me and to his son. Then they came and asked me about what had happened.

4 I told them what had happened, what he did to me. Then they asked him.

5 At first he did not admit. He said that I had lied, but it was not true.

6 I told them what had really happened. Then they came to me. They said to

7 me that it was not a lie -- I told them it was not a lie, and that was the

8 truth. Then they went back to him again and they asked him. Then he

9 admitted that.

10 Q. Just going back on what you've just said. You said: "Then they

11 came and asked me what had happened." Who was it who came? Did they come

12 to your house?

13 A. There were three people, commanders. They were from our village

14 and from another village, so they came to me and they asked me. And then

15 they went to him and they questioned him. He at first did not admit, but

16 then later he confessed.

17 Q. Were the three people who came, were they from the KLA?

18 A. Commanders of UCK, that's how they referred to them; commanders,

19 that's how they were referred. I didn't recognise them, I didn't know

20 them.

21 Q. What were they --

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, for purposes -- for purposes of the

23 record, I object to the hearsay with regard to the issue of any admission.


25 MR. RE: I was going to explore that, and I will.

Page 3998

1 Q. Just going back to these commanders of the UCK, did they refer to

2 themselves as commanders of the UCK or did someone else refer to them as

3 commanders of the UCK?

4 A. That's how they were called, "commanders." They were the highest

5 people. I didn't know them. This is what the people my father-in-law

6 talked to and then they came to us.

7 Q. What were they wearing when they came to your house?

8 A. Normal wearing. There was one with UCK uniform; the others were

9 wearing normal dresses, normal clothes like ours.

10 Q. Do you remember whether they were armed?

11 A. No, I don't remember. No, they had no weapons -- I think they had

12 no weapons with them.

13 Q. A moment ago you said: "They went to him and they questioned him.

14 He at first did not admit it but then later he confessed."

15 Tell the Trial Chamber, the Judges, what -- how you know that and

16 what was told to you about how he admitted and confessed to it.

17 A. Yes, they came to me and asked me, and then they told me that he

18 had admitted. They told me not to be afraid, he will not do anything to

19 me, that he will not come to us. He will see you in the street and he

20 will not dare talk to you. That's what they told me.

21 Q. Did they say that to you -- I'm sorry, I withdraw that.

22 How many times did you see these people you referred to as KLA

23 commanders?

24 A. Only on that day, the day when they came to see me, to question

25 me. I didn't know them. Two people were from our village. The other

Page 3999

1 one, I didn't know him.

2 Q. Did they tell you who he had confessed to?

3 A. He had confessed to them. They had talked to him. When they came

4 to ask me, they told me that he had said that I had lied. I told them

5 that it was not a lie, it was the truth. I had nothing to lie about

6 because what had happened was really the truth.

7 Q. Did you see Toger again after that night in that house?

8 A. Yes, I think so. One time maybe. I didn't speak to him. He did

9 not harass us, but we were scared. We did not dare to go out. Then we

10 decided to leave the village altogether, so we left the village at night.

11 Q. That -- maybe one time that you saw him, where was that? Or

12 describe how you saw him.

13 A. He was in his car. He was passing with his car, but he did not

14 speak to us. But we were very scared of him. He passed sometimes next to

15 our road, but he did not speak to us.

16 Q. Can you describe the car? Can you remember what sort of car he

17 had when you saw him?

18 A. A black car, yes a black car, a jeep, a big jeep.

19 Q. Why did your family leave the village? I think your evidence

20 earlier was it was about -- two weeks, about, after this happened to you.

21 A. We left the village, because that's what everybody did. There was

22 a lot of fighting, so we left the village, like everybody else was doing,

23 and we never returned home. My husband returned once to the house, the

24 house was destroyed, then he came back us to and he joined us.

25 Q. Have you returned to your village since then?

Page 4000

1 A. No, no, I have never returned to the village. Only my

2 father-in-law returns sometimes because his two sons are still in Kosova,

3 so he sometimes went back to visit them.

4 Q. Witness 61, I want you to tell the Trial Chamber, tell the Judges,

5 what Toger looked like.

6 A. I don't know how to describe him, even if I saw him today, now, I

7 cannot -- will not be able to recognise him. I don't know. I know that

8 he was short, not big man, black hair.

9 Q. Was he taller than you?

10 A. Just a little taller than me.

11 Q. What -- how old was he?

12 A. Maybe 20, 22, 23, no older than that. I don't know exactly, but

13 he was something around that age. He was young.

14 Q. What language was he speaking to you in?

15 A. What, please? Albanian. I heard him speaking in Albanian. I

16 don't know what other language he spoke, but that night he spoke to me in

17 Albanian. He was not from our village; he was from another place.

18 Q. What can you remember about his accent? Are you able to say what

19 sort of accent he had?

20 A. Albanian.

21 Q. When you say "Albanian," are you meaning from the country of

22 Albania or a part of Kosovo?

23 A. I don't know the place where he lived. He was not from our

24 village, he was not from our place, he was from another place. I don't

25 know where he came from.

Page 4001

1 [Prosecution counsel confer]

2 MR. RE:

3 Q. The -- you said Toger and four others came to your house that

4 night. How did the other four refer to this person you've called Toger?

5 A. They referred to him as Toger. I don't know his name. I remember

6 them calling him, "the Toger."

7 Q. Is that how you know him, that he was called Toger, or --

8 A. Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I'm looking at the clock. I didn't interrupt

10 until now because looking at the statement it might be that you are close

11 to --

12 MR. RE: I'm almost there. I've just -- there's a photograph I

13 wish to show her in private session. If it's appropriate to take the

14 break now, because it might take a few moments to show her the photograph

15 on the screen.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We are back on the old video system, that means

17 that for redactions we need at least half an hour. Therefore, we'll have

18 a break until five minutes past 11.00.

19 We'll have a break and we'd like to see you back after the break,

20 Witness 61.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you want.

22 --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

23 --- On resuming at 11.14 a.m.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, you may proceed.

25 MR. RE:

Page 4002

1 Q. Witness 61, before the break I was asking you to describe Toger to

2 the Court, and you said that he was a short man, taller than you. Do you

3 know how tall you are?

4 A. Well, I don't know exactly how tall I am. I've forgotten how tall

5 I've been -- I used to be. It should be a metre something.

6 Q. When you saw him that night, what did you notice about his face?

7 A. Well, I -- I remember he had some bumps on the face.

8 Q. What sort of bumps and where were they?

9 A. They were on the cheeks and on the lower part of the face.

10 Q. Can you just touch your face to show the Judges where you're

11 referring to.

12 A. They were on the cheeks.

13 JUDGE ORIE: The witness was pointing, I would say, the lower

14 parts of the cheeks.

15 Please proceed.

16 MR. RE:

17 Q. What about his neck and throat, did you notice anything about --

18 A. And on the beard -- on the chin, on the chin.

19 Q. What about --

20 A. No.

21 Q. I'm sorry. I think we overlapped there. I was going to ask you

22 about his neck and throat. Did you notice anything about his neck or

23 throat?

24 A. No, I haven't seen anything on the throat. Maybe on the chin he

25 had some pimples, on the cheeks as well, but I was not so much interested

Page 4003

1 to see him on the face.

2 Q. Just tell me about the -- I think you called them a moment ago

3 "bumps on his face" and then you said "pimples." Can you just describe

4 in a little bit more detail, if you can, what you saw or what sort of

5 bumps or pimples they were.

6 A. They were small, as far as I remember.

7 Q. What looked -- what did it look like had caused them, these bumps

8 or pimples?

9 A. Well, I don't know. I simply know he had some bumps on the face,

10 but I don't know why and how.

11 Q. Now, before the break you told the Court that Toger and these four

12 men took you and your husband to the KLA headquarters. How did you know

13 or why did you say it was KLA headquarters?

14 A. Well, this is how people called the place. It was the

15 headquarters of the KLA. Everybody was referring to it as such. I've

16 never been -- I was not there with them. This is all I knew.

17 Q. When -- I withdraw that.

18 You've told the Court about Toger and four men coming to your

19 house that night. Did your husband know or recognise Toger when he came

20 to the house that night?

21 A. Yes. Yes, he recognised him.

22 Q. Did your husband know his name when Toger came to the house that

23 night?

24 A. No, he didn't know his name. We only know that he was called

25 Toger, but we didn't know his name. He didn't know his name and I didn't

Page 4004

1 know his name either.

2 Q. Did your husband know him as Toger and recognise him as Toger when

3 he came to the house that night?

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have two submissions: One, that it's leading,,

6 and second is that it calls for hearsay, which at this time we have no

7 information about. How he obtained this information, we don't have. More

8 importantly --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps if the question is -- is put in a slightly

10 different way, not, "Did your husband know," but, "Did your husband tell

11 you whether he --"

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: That would satisfy part of it.

13 JUDGE ORIE: That's one. The other matter, whether it's leading

14 or not, I think - I think - it's a necessary clarification in view of one

15 of the earlier answers of the witness.

16 So, Mr. Re, you may proceed, and perhaps reformulate the question

17 as far as what the husband knew.

18 MR. RE:

19 Q. What did your husband know of the person called Toger at the time

20 when Toger came to your house that night?

21 JUDGE ORIE: You're using exactly now the same phrasing, Mr. Re,

22 where you were invited to do it differently. Let me.

23 The evening when Toger and the four men came to your house, did

24 your husband at that time say anything to you as far as who it was that

25 came to the house? Did he say, Look there is or there is X, Y, or Z. Do

Page 4005

1 you remember?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, we didn't know them at all. We

3 didn't recognise them. They only recognised Toger, and he simply knew

4 that they called him Toger, because he had seen him before and he

5 recognised him when he came inside the house. But I couldn't recognise

6 him.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Since you did not know Toger, how do you know that

8 your husband recognised the person that came into the house as being

9 Toger?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because he had seen him before, he

11 had seen him in the village.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but did he tell you that or did -- or did he --

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, he told me that he is Toger,

14 after we came back home, Toger was the person.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you learned from your husband after you had

16 returned to your house that your husband when Toger and the four men came

17 in, that he recognised Toger as the man he knew under that name?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, the Toger.


20 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

21 MR. RE:

22 Q. Earlier today you told the Judges that they sent your husband to

23 the well. What did your husband tell you about what happened to him when

24 you were in the room with Toger?

25 A. When we came home, he told me that he had put him in the water to

Page 4006

1 the -- up to the waist line and he had put the lid on the well and that he

2 was left there inside until they finished with me. When I was taken out,

3 they have taken him out, too. He was in water up -- and the water came up

4 to the waist line.

5 Q. Did you see your husband in the well yourself?

6 A. No, I didn't see him. He told me that they put him in the well,

7 and I saw them when they was taking him to the well because the well was

8 near the house. I was sent inside the house, and they -- he was taken to

9 the well.

10 Q. Who did you see taking him to the well?

11 A. It was two persons only. There were two persons with me taking me

12 to the house and there were two persons with my husband.

13 Q. A moment ago you said your husband said he had put your husband in

14 the water. Who did he say had put him in the water, in the well, up to

15 his waist line?

16 A. When the other persons who were with Toger, I don't know who they

17 were, I didn't know them. He just told that they had taken him to the

18 well.

19 Q. Earlier today you told the Judges about your family leaving the

20 village and you said there was some fighting. Who was the fighting

21 between when you left your village?

22 A. It was among themselves, fighting with one another. Well, it was

23 UCK forces with the Serb forces, they were fighting with one another and

24 we left.

25 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown 65 --

Page 4007

1 JUDGE ORIE: Can we perhaps first try to get a more factual basis

2 for one of the issues.

3 You said your husband told you that he had been put in the well up

4 to his waist. Was there anything you noticed that either confirmed to you

5 what he said or actually did not confirm what he said? Did you observe

6 anything special?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we went home -- well, nothing.

8 He simply said he was taken, he was put in the well. He's never -- he

9 didn't tell me anything what they were asking about. He simply told me

10 that he was put in the well and they'd been -- they were guarding him.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And did you see anything when going home with

12 your husband?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I didn't see anything.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Let me put it in another way. If someone is put in a

15 well up to his waist in the water, you would expect his clothes to be

16 really wet.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, his clothes were wet. Yes,

18 they were wet from the waist downward they were wet, and he changed his

19 clothes when we went home.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Before you went home or after you arrived at home did

21 he change his clothes?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we went home, after we were

23 allowed to go back home, I changed his clothes and we stayed at home. And

24 then we went to the headquarters. He and my father-in-law went to the KLA

25 headquarters.

Page 4008

1 JUDGE ORIE: Was that immediately after you had come home and

2 after your husband had changed his clothes? Was that that same night?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was around 3.00 in the,

4 morning when we went -- 3.00 -- it was at 3.00 in the afternoon that we

5 went home, and at 5.00 in the morning they went to the headquarters.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's just try to clarify that. You said you were

7 taken from your home at night, at midnight. Is that correct?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

9 JUDGE ORIE: You described the -- you described the events as

10 follows: That you were taken to what you call the headquarters, that for

11 some time questions were put to you, that you were then abused, which took

12 approximately one hour and a half, which all together makes it

13 approximately two and a half to three hours which that would take. And

14 then to go home again, that -- it surprises me if you would have arrived

15 home at 3.00 in the afternoon, because on the basis of what you told us I

16 would rather expect you --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, it was 3.00 at night.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, then there must have been either a

19 translation mistake or you have misspoken. And was it then after a couple

20 of hours that your father-in-law went to see --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was 5.00 in the morning.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it all happened that same one night?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.

25 MR. RE:

Page 4009

1 Q. Had you heard of an organisation called the Black Eagles?

2 A. No, I don't know.

3 Q. Had you heard of --

4 A. I know that they were something black but I haven't seen them, but

5 I didn't went out too often from my house.

6 Q. You said you knew they were something black. Just tell the Trial

7 Chamber what knew or what you'd heard about the Black Eagles and who you'd

8 heard it from.

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I'm not sure if you can ask that question when the

10 witness said she wouldn't know the expression "Black Eagles."


12 Mr. Re, the witness said something -- she denied knowledge of

13 Black Eagles. She said she knew about something black and then you

14 introduced the next question by saying: You told us about something

15 black. What do you know about the Black Eagles? That's not --

16 MR. RE: "Q. Had you heard of an organisation called the Black

17 Eagles?

18 "A. I don't know. I know that they were something black but I

19 haven't seen them"?

20 JUDGE ORIE: They were -- yes.

21 MR. RE: My question is: Have you -- what did you hear? I -- to

22 me there was some ambiguity there.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Please rephrase the question in such a way that there

24 could be no confusion.

25 MR. RE:

Page 4010

1 Q. You told us a moment ago that you had not seen an organisation

2 called the Black Eagles, but you knew they were something black. What do

3 you mean by that?

4 A. My husband had seen them and he described me the way they were

5 dressed. How can I put it? In -- they had also the insignia on the

6 sleeves. I don't know anything more. I could not come out to see them.

7 I was not interested. I was minding my business. I prepared the food for

8 my children.

9 Q. You said -- you said your husband had seen them and described the

10 way they were dressed. What did he tell you about the Black Eagles?

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, again this the -- this is not a way to put

12 this to the witness.

13 You said that your husband described --

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He had seen them. He went out, he

15 worked, so he had seen them. I haven't seen them. So when he came

16 home --


18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- he told me the way they were

19 dressed --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that they had this thing on the

22 sleeve --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand. Is it correctly understood

24 where you referred to something black, that he described them - we'll come

25 to who "them" exactly are - that he described persons dressed in black

Page 4011

1 with insignia? Is that what he told you?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had UCK dresses and they had

3 the insignia on the arm. I don't know what kind of insignia they wore,

4 but there was some insignia on them.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, did your husband ever give you a clue on how

6 they, that is, the men dressed in black with the insignia, how they were

7 called?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He didn't mention any name, but he

9 saw the Toger and his men and he told me they were wearing in black

10 clothes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you heard a description of the people

12 wearing the clothes, but they were never named as far as you are aware of?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, only the black clothes.


15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were wearing such clothes, the

16 black ones. I don't know how they were called.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So you never heard the name of "Black Hawks"

18 or "Black Eagles" or "black --" is that something your husband never

19 mentioned to you?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.


22 Please proceed, Mr. Re.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how to put it because I

24 haven't seen them.

25 MR. RE:

Page 4012

1 Q. Do you remember speaking to an investigator from the Prosecution

2 in August 2002 with a -- a Finnish man called Matti Raatikainen with an

3 Albanian-speaking person called Ardiana?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember giving him a statement?

6 A. I remember giving a statement, but I have forgotten what I said.

7 Q. Was your memory of what happened to you and when it happened

8 better in 2002, that is, five years ago when you -- five years ago when

9 you gave the statement than it is now, as to the date when these things

10 happened to you?

11 A. How can I say? I don't know what to say. I never forget what had

12 happened to me. I could forget something but not really what happened to

13 me, that's unforgettable.

14 MR. RE: Unless there's any --

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Microphone not activated].

16 MR. EMMERSON: If the issue is as to -- might the witness just

17 remove her earphones a moment.


19 Could I ask you to take your earphones off for a second.

20 Yes.

21 MR. EMMERSON: If the issue is as to date and date alone,

22 Your Honours should be aware that there are two passages in the statement

23 that Mr. Re is referring to. The first is in the second sentence of the

24 third paragraph in which the witness says: "Since I did not go to school,

25 I don't know what, for example, the months are or mean; therefore, I can't

Page 4013

1 describe the time more precisely."

2 And then two paragraphs further on in the second sentence: "The

3 first problems we had happened somewhere at the end of July or the

4 beginning of August in 1998."

5 Now, if those two statements together are sought to be elicited

6 from the witness so that Your Honours can draw the appropriate inference

7 as to whether the second is reliable in view of the first, then I, for my

8 part, would have no objection to there being a stipulation or an

9 acknowledgement that those two sentences are in the witness statement.

10 Beyond that, there's no basis for memory refreshing, and, with respect,

11 I'm not sure how taken together those two statements can refresh anybody's

12 memory.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I take it that you -- you would like to draw

14 the attention of the witness to -- to what exactly? So that we can --

15 MR. RE: That's the sole basis -- as Mr. Emmerson put it, the sole

16 basis is the date in those two passages.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's got nothing to do with the -- with the

18 name of the Black Eagles or --

19 MR. RE: No. No, it's only the date.

20 MR. EMMERSON: In those circumstances, may it be a stipulation

21 those two sentences, as I read into the record, appear in the

22 transcript -- I'm sorry, appear in the statement.


24 MR. RE: I'm sorry, I misspoke a moment ago when I said the second

25 passage is the one I wish to take the witness to. There are two passages.

Page 4014

1 I've got no objection to Mr. Emmerson's stipulation to the witness's

2 statement about dates.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, is that a stipulation that is supported by other

4 Defence counsel?

5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, it is.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey as well.

7 MR. HARVEY: [No audible response]

8 MR. RE: Could I just outline to the Trial Chamber what I would

9 propose, and that is, I accept what they're saying.


11 MR. RE: "Sometime in spring 1998 I could see there were KLA

12 soldiers in" -- no.

13 I apologise.

14 Q. The two passages are: "The first problems we had -- we had

15 happened somewhere at the end of July or beginning of August 1998," and

16 then: "I was at home one night at around 12.00 p.m., I think it was in

17 late July."

18 MR. RE: Those are the two passages I would -- that I wish to

19 refer the witness to, and I have no objection to her being referred to the

20 earlier passage about not going to school and dates and times.

21 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, just for the sake of clarification and

22 absolute clarity in those circumstances, may I read three short sentences

23 from the statement into the transcript and all parties to stipulate them.

24 Sentence number one: "Since I did not go to school, I don't know

25 what, for example, the months are or mean; therefore, I can't describe the

Page 4015

1 time more precisely."

2 Sentence number two: "The first problems we had happened

3 somewhere at the end of July or beginning of August 1998 and I will now

4 tell you about these incidents."

5 Sentence number three: "I was at home one night around 12.00

6 p.m., I think it was in late July," and then the sentence continues.

7 Those three sentences are stipulated as an admission between the

8 parties.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please then, that's -- was the statement, and, of

10 course, I take it that you draw the attention of the Chamber to it and you

11 want to have them on the record because any statement about precise month

12 where someone has said that he is not able to fully understand what the

13 month are and limits herself to spring rather -- or early spring rather

14 than to July, August, late July, early September, that's ...

15 MR. EMMERSON: It's clear there's no question of obfuscation

16 here. It's simply, in terms of assessing the precise reliability of dates

17 when they have been inserted. It's important to know the background

18 against which they're dealt with.


20 Mr. Re.

21 MR. RE: Yes, that's --

22 JUDGE ORIE: You may then proceed.

23 MR. RE: That's --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Could the witness put her headphones on.

25 MR. RE: Could the witness be shown 65 ter Exhibit 1327, which is

Page 4016

1 a photograph.

2 Q. Witness, I'll ask you to look at the screen, you'll see a

3 photograph on it, I'll ask you to mark something on it with a pen. The

4 court usher will give you a pen and I'll ask you to draw something on the

5 screen.

6 A. Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, before we continue could we go into private

8 session for a second.

9 [Private session]

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4017











11 Pages 4017-4021 redacted. Private session.















Page 4022

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 [Open session]

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

18 Witness 61, questions will now be put to you by counsel for the

19 defendants. I do not know -- Mr. Emmerson, is it you? But before you do

20 so, Mr. Guy-Smith, it seems that your team has been reinforced or that

21 some strangers are in the courtroom.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe that all who are here have been here

23 before, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Then I really have to apologise because this gives me

25 a very bad reputation. Apologies.

Page 4023

1 Mr. Emmerson -- Mr. Guy-Smith --

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Mr. Emmerson and I discussed the matter and he has

3 some brief questions he would like to ask the witness and I'm more than

4 happy to do it that way.


6 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

7 You, perhaps, Witness 61, look to the left, where is Mr. Emmerson

8 who will put some questions to you.

9 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

10 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

11 Q. Witness 61, I've just got one or two very brief questions for you,

12 and I'm not going to ask you any questions about your personal ordeal or

13 what happened to you. But I just want to ask you one or two short

14 questions about things that you have said in the past when you've spoken

15 to investigators from the Prosecution. Now, first of all, you've been

16 spoken to by people from the Prosecution department on more than one

17 occasion, haven't you?

18 A. Yes, you're talking at the beginning, at the first time that I was

19 interviewed. I think there were two women, two ladies.

20 Q. I'm not going to ask you about dates and I'm not going to ask you

21 about all of the details of who was there, but just confining yourself to

22 the question that I ask you. You've been interviewed on more than one

23 occasion. Is that right?

24 A. Yes, I think two times.

25 Q. I think if I put it to you this way, we have records of you being

Page 4024

1 interviewed three times altogether, twice quite close together some years

2 ago, and once more recently, just last year. Does that sound right?

3 A. Yes, I think this is right.

4 Q. And each time when you were questioned, you gave answers and the

5 answers were written down. Is that right?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And then at the end of the -- at the end of the process, the

8 statement was read back to you in your own language. Is that right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And then you were asked to sign the statement to say that its

11 contents were true. Is that right?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And you can write your name sufficiently to sign and you did sign

14 each one, didn't you?

15 A. Yes, I have signed.

16 Q. Yes. On that basis, I just want to put three very, very short

17 passages to you from what you said at the time and just get you to confirm

18 that this is what you said. All right?

19 First of all, when you were -- when you were interviewed in -- for

20 the very, very first time for the record -- I'm not asking you to confirm

21 the date, but for the record it was the 23rd of August, 2002, you said --

22 you described what happened to you after you left the office and after the

23 ordeal that you have described. And what you said was this. Just listen

24 to me for a moment. I'm going to read to you the words that you used

25 about what happened after that. You say this, you say: "I was sent out

Page 4025

1 from the office. Later I heard from my husband that he was asked

2 basically the same questions as Toger had asked me, and I remember that he

3 was not beaten. We were allowed to leave at around 3.00 a.m."

4 Do you remember saying that to the Prosecution?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. The next I want to take you to is from the second

7 statement, which was made just a little while later. Again, for the

8 record, it was made on the 15th of October, 2002, and I'm just going to

9 read to you what you said and signed there. This relates to your journey

10 home after the ordeal that you've described. You said this: "When I

11 walked home from the KLA house, I don't remember having seen anything

12 unusual on the road."

13 Is that correct?

14 A. No. How can I put it? I haven't seen a thing.

15 Q. Thank you. And then the last short passage I want to put to you

16 comes from the statement you made most recently, just last year. And in

17 the short passage I want --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, last year, I think we should not forgot

19 that there is a 2nd of May statement as well, so therefore that could be

20 confusing.

21 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm -- did I say the last --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Most recently --

23 MR. EMMERSON: I do apologise. Let me make it absolutely clear.

24 JUDGE ORIE: One year ago.

25 MR. EMMERSON: Just bear with me a moment, yes --

Page 4026

1 JUDGE ORIE: I'll --


3 Q. I'll correct what I was going to say so you're not in any way

4 confused --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson perhaps if you refer, we know the

6 date --


8 JUDGE ORIE: -- to refer approximately to the seasons.


10 Q. About a year ago, last summer, you made a third witness statement,

11 and for our record it's the 28th of May, 2006, and I want to ask you about

12 a passage which appears in paragraph 5 of the statement that you signed.

13 And you're describing your fear when you first left the house and why you

14 say you are afraid why you might not be coming back. Okay? If you'll

15 just bear with me more a moment. What you said was this: "I thought --

16 I thought that we will never come back home and that we will be killed

17 because at that time" -- just -- just let me finish the passage first, and

18 then I'll just ask you to confirm it. Okay. I'll start it again because

19 I want to read it through to you in one passage. All right?

20 I'll start again.

21 "I thought that we will never come back home and that we will be

22 killed because at that time a lot of people went missing and many people

23 were killed because there was a wartime. But I cannot name any person who

24 went missing were was killed because I almost never went out of my house.

25 I also have never heard anything from my husband and I don't know if he

Page 4027

1 was a witness of any crime."

2 That is what your statement says. Is that what you told the

3 Prosecution?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 A. That's it.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Those are my questions.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

10 Now Mr. Guy-Smith, who is standing over there, will put questions

11 to you.

12 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

13 Q. Good afternoon, Witness 61. I'm going to be asking you a number

14 of questions. If during the period of time that I'm asking you a question

15 you don't understand what I've said because I've asked it perhaps poorly,

16 please let me know because I want to make sure that you understand what

17 I've asked you so that you can give us your best and most accurate

18 answers. Okay?

19 A. [No interpretation]

20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour, I'm sitting in a situation where I

21 don't have any answer. I have a clicking -- now I have interpretation.



24 Q. Did you understand what I've just said?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4028

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 4029











11 Pages 4029-4033 redacted. Private session.















Page 4034

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 [Open session]

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 Q. And when you were -- when you went into the house, you went

9 directly into the room - and that's a question: Did you directly go into

10 the room where you spent some period of time speaking with this person

11 about --

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Speaking with this person about whether or not you were

14 collaborating with or having anything to do with the Serbs, as you've told

15 us; right?

16 A. That's right.

17 Q. In that room, the lights were on when you were sitting in the

18 room; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And the person that you were talking to was about a metre away

21 from you - right? - when he was talking to you and, as you said, he was

22 taking notes and writing down the answers to the questions he was giving

23 you?

24 A. Yes. Well, I was on this side and he was on the other side of the

25 table.

Page 4035

1 Q. And was the table about as wide as the area you're sitting in

2 right now with -- which has the computer screen there? Was it about that

3 wide?

4 A. It was a little bigger. It was -- the table was bigger than this

5 and longer than this. The -- his chair was on the other side and I was on

6 this side.

7 Q. Okay --

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, of course you are asking about

9 the -- "was the table about as wide as the area you're sitting in," the

10 area is approximately 2 and a half, 3 metres, but I think the witness

11 correctly understood your question, which was not very precise, as to

12 refer to the size of the table and the small table next to where the

13 witness is sitting. And she finally said that it was a bit larger, and I

14 think the measurement of approximately what we are looking at is some 1

15 metre 40. So the table would have been larger than 1 metre 40, 1 metre

16 50. May I really ask for precision --

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure --

18 JUDGE ORIE: If it appears to be of such importance whether it's a

19 metre or 2 metres, then we really should be very precise.

20 Please proceed.

21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you so much.

22 Q. During the period of time that you were sitting at the table, the

23 man who was sitting across from you was about how far away? Could you

24 tell the Chamber how far away he was from you?

25 A. Well, I don't know how to put it. The table was between us like

Page 4036

1 this table is in here. I was on this side and he was on the other side.

2 I can't say how long the table was. I didn't notice it.

3 Q. Well, if you use -- if you use, for example - and I'm asking you

4 whether this works or not; if it doesn't so be it - if you were to put

5 your arms out like this would he be that far away from you, between my two

6 arms, or was it more than that?

7 A. Yes, it would -- it was that big. It was not so very long and

8 very big table. I don't know how to put it to you and how to describe it.

9 Q. Does this look about right?

10 A. Yes, it was that big.

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do hope somebody could estimate that; I would

12 appreciate it because I --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith --

14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would say it's about -- I would say it's

15 somewhat over -- about a metre and a half is what I would think.

16 JUDGE ORIE: A little bit over a metre and a half.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Somewhere in that neighbourhood.


19 MR. GUY-SMITH: A metre 70, a metre 60, that's fine.

20 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine. We'll receive the measurements of all

21 accused counsel and witnesses at a later stage because we might need --

22 please proceed. It's Mr. Guy-Smith's arms spread in full.

23 Please proceed.


25 Q. During the period of time that he was talking to you and taking

Page 4037

1 notes, you could clearly see his face, couldn't you?

2 A. Yes, sometimes I saw him, sometimes not, some time I was looking

3 down.

4 Q. Sure. But during that period of time when he was asking you the

5 questions that he was asking you and notes were -- and he was taking down

6 notes, during that period of time, if I understand it, it was somewhere in

7 the neighbourhood of half an hour. Is that correct? Was it more? Was it

8 less?

9 A. Yes, he was just in front of me sitting on the chair on the other

10 side of the table. He was taking down notes. I don't know. He was

11 writing.

12 Q. And the period of time that he was doing that, that he was writing

13 and you were across the table from him, how long was that? How long were

14 you just sitting -- the two of you just sitting in the room, with him

15 asking you questions? How long was that?

16 A. Well, I don't know. Maybe around half an hour.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

18 Could you take your earphones off for a second.

19 Mr. Guy-Smith, the Chamber gets the impression that you want to

20 establish that the witness could have clearly seen the face and had

21 sufficient time to see that face, and I take it that is relevant for your

22 case because it may cast -- shed some other light on why, perhaps at a

23 later stage, she was not -- she has not recognised that person. You spent

24 quite a lot of time on that. The Chamber - and I've just consulted with

25 my colleagues - have no major doubt as to under the circumstances that the

Page 4038

1 witness had time and an opportunity to see who was with her in the

2 chamber -- in that room. At the same time, memory, recollection, is -- of

3 course you need to observe something in order to at a later stage

4 reproduce it from memory. But you spent a lot of time on the issue which,

5 as far as the Chamber is concerned, might not be the key issue in this

6 respect.

7 [Defence counsel confer]

8 JUDGE ORIE: But if I misunderstood your line of questioning, then

9 of course it's -- final is up to you. But I'm just telling you how the

10 Chamber until now has perceived what you're doing and what the Chamber

11 thinks about it as far as relevance is concerned.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: If the Chamber is satisfied that, based on the

13 evidence that has been presented, this particular witness was in the

14 presence of that individual for some two and a half to three hours, some

15 period of time of two and a half to three hours, when she had the ability

16 to -- and opportunity to observe, which I think that the Chamber is

17 understand --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I think if I --

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Then I --

20 JUDGE ORIE: -- you misunderstood. You misunderstood. First of

21 all, the Chamber has not -- has -- at least -- I'm now speaking for

22 myself, but I'll be corrected by my colleagues. The Chamber, on the basis

23 of the evidence produced, might need some further thinking before it

24 establishes that on the road at midnight that there was a full opportunity

25 to observe a person who was among five persons, that's one.

Page 4039

1 Second, if you're talking about two and a half, three hours, I

2 think I made this estimate before, and at least from the testimony from

3 this witness it appears that a considerable period of time was with the

4 light switched off. So therefore, to fully observe when the light is

5 switched off at the middle of the light and to say, Well, if the Chamber

6 examines that the witness could have observed the person she was with for

7 two and a half, three hours, that would be an overstatement. But --

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: If --

9 JUDGE ORIE: -- as long as the light is on, and if -- as long as

10 questions are put to you during half an hour, that the Chamber would not

11 have great difficulties, most likely, to accept that the witness had

12 sufficient time and was at a distance to that person to at least observe

13 that person for half an hour. That's -- if that's what you want to

14 establish, to be quite honest, I don't know how juries function, but it --

15 I think I'm speaking on behalf of the Chamber, that it does not come even

16 to our mind that the witness would not have had an opportunity, apart from

17 whether psychologically she was focusing on what she could have observed,

18 whether Mr. Re has put some questions to the witness in that respect, the

19 Chamber is not alluding in any way to how those circumstances might

20 influence your capacity to later reproduce what you've seen. That's a

21 different matter, but it -- I think I'm speaking on behalf of the other

22 Judges as well that it did not come into our mind that the witness would

23 have had no opportunity to observe the person she was with at that moment

24 in terms of distance, in terms of light. At least during this interview.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well. The reason that I spent the time there

Page 4040

1 was because, as the Chamber has correctly noted, and I was going to move

2 to the next phase, which is with the lights off and the television on,

3 which is what I believe the testimony was, and I was going to explore

4 that, but the --

5 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. I don't know about that.

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: The reason --

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think it was in the statement. I don't know

8 whether it was in the testimony. You'll have to check that.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, I -- I'm -- I would like to explore that.

10 But the reason that I -- I am doing precisely this is because of the

11 precise, I think, underlying concerns that ultimately would come to the

12 fore, which deals with the issue of time, memory, and the psychology of

13 perception.


15 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I'm guided -- I'm guided here by consultation

16 with an expert in the issue of eye-witness identification, who has

17 suggested that all of these things are important for a record and

18 important for the Chamber's determination. But I'm more than happy --

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's of course a difference with a jury,

20 that this Chamber -- the members of this Chamber are not thinking for the

21 first time in their life and not reading for the first time in their life

22 lines on these kind of eye-witness identification, et cetera, as may be

23 clear from earlier exchanges of view that should -- the Chamber, of

24 course, knows the basics of theory about that.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: So you understand I'm guided -- I'm guided by

Page 4041

1 Professor Wagenaar so that's the reason I'm in this area.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand. At the same time, it's time

3 for a break.

4 Could you please put your earphones up again.

5 We will have a break until 1.00, and we'll then continue.

6 Mr. Guy-Smith, is there a fair chance that we would finish today?

7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Extremely fair.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.

9 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

10 --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, you may proceed.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.

13 Q. Before we took the break, we were discussing the time when you

14 were sitting in the room talking with this man who was asking you

15 questions. I believe that you've -- you've told us that it was -- that

16 there was a -- I think it was a soldier was at the door of the room. Is

17 that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Is -- the soldier who was at the door of the room, is that a

20 soldier that you had seen earlier in the evening?

21 A. He was there. I saw him there, and then he left.

22 Q. He was not one of the soldiers that you had seen earlier at your

23 home before you came to the house where you were questioned, was he?

24 A. Yes, he was one of them.

25 Q. Uh-huh. Could you describe to the Chamber what he looked like.

Page 4042

1 A. At the door, the one at the door?

2 Q. Yes. If you can, that's fine; and if you can't, that's okay too.

3 A. He was somewhat tall, a little stout.

4 Q. Do you remember the colour of his hair? Was he -- did he have

5 black hair?

6 A. I don't know. I don't know about the hair.

7 Q. When you say he was somewhat tall - if you could look at me for a

8 second - do you mean --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, yes.


11 Q. -- do you mean tall like me?

12 A. Somewhat a little taller than you.

13 Q. Taller than me? Was the man that you have said was a person

14 who -- who put you through this ordeal, this man you said was Toger, was

15 that -- was that man shorter than me?

16 A. He was short, yes.

17 Q. Okay. When you say he was short, he was shorter than I am?

18 A. I don't know. I don't know how to say now. A little --

19 probably -- I don't know.

20 Q. A little shorter than I am?

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, comparing the length of persons in the

22 way you suggested could be done hardly could give any reliable results.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, given the information we have here, we work

24 with what we have, Your Honour, and we're going to at some point

25 approximate heights and distances and times, so I'm doing the best that I

Page 4043

1 can with what we've got.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.

4 Q. Now, the other three soldiers who were at your house initially,

5 could you describe for the Chamber what they looked like?

6 A. I don't know. I didn't see them. They were all the same. I

7 didn't see them all at the same time. It was night. I didn't see them

8 inside. I saw them only outside. Then outside it was dark. I couldn't

9 see them so I could not tell you how they looked like.

10 Q. Very well.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.

12 MR. RE: Just before Mr. Guy-Smith goes on, I sort of intervened a

13 moment ago, that was when -- in relation to the height comparison

14 evidence. All I want is for the record to reflect that when Mr. Guy-Smith

15 was asking those questions he's standing about 15 metres away from the

16 witness who is seated behind a screen. He is standing leaning on a

17 lectern. I just want the record to reflect that is what he was asking the

18 witness to comment on --

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't think --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Let's move on. I mean, I said these kind of

21 comparisons might not be of great assistance to the Chamber, to say the

22 least, and then to go into further details on why not or why yes, that

23 really doesn't assist. Please proceed.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: You had at some -- at one point earlier suggested

25 that perhaps we take measurements of all counsel and witnesses. I think

Page 4044

1 we may actually -- at some point I'm going to make a request that we do

2 have the heights of certain people so we know what they are.

3 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact, as far as reliability is

4 concerned, and if we are talking about -- if we're keeping in mind that of

5 course a period of nine or ten years might make a difference, that it's

6 not under all circumstances, but I also leave to the parties whether they

7 want to provide such information because it might not be totally

8 irrelevant and the parties could also suggest that the Victims and

9 Witnesses Section could play a role here in getting data which might --

10 might assist the Chamber in -- in making comparisons or assessing the

11 reliability in respect of these matters.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I thank you for the suggestion. I fully intended

13 at the conclusion of today's proceedings to ask for such -- for such an

14 order.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, that will be in half an hour, as you

16 are aware.

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I am.

18 Q. You've told us that you were able to see some bumps on this man's

19 face; correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the bumps that you saw on this man's face, are those bumps

22 that you were able to see on his face after the lights were turned off and

23 the television was on in the room? Could you see the bumps then?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Okay. And just so the record is clear and so that the Chamber has

Page 4045

1 all the information, after the lights were turned off in the room, did

2 the -- was the television on? Was there light coming out of the

3 television?

4 A. Yes, yes it was -- yes, it was a television on.

5 Q. Okay. About how far away was the television from where you were?

6 A. I don't know how to say it. Maybe -- it was at the corner of the

7 room.

8 Q. And with the television on while you were in the room with this

9 man, during that period of time, could you see his face?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. After you went through this ordeal, if I understand your testimony

12 correctly, you left the room; right?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When you left the room you saw your husband, I believe. Is that

15 right?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And when you saw your husband, did you just -- did you stay with

18 your husband at that time?

19 A. I was there, but they took my husband inside.

20 Q. And after some period of time, a short period of time, and I'm

21 asking you, you and your husband then walked home. Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. And it took you about as long to walk home as it took you to get

24 there, about 15 or 20 minutes?

25 A. Yes.

Page 4046

1 Q. When you got home you spoke to your father-in-law, your

2 mother-in-law, and the other people who were about you about what

3 happened; right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. At that time did you have a chance to speak to your parents about

6 what had happened?

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 A. Once, I was there only once. So my father was dead. I met only

17 my mother and my brother.

18 Q. And was that still -- was that still very close to the time that

19 this ordeal happened that you met your mother and your brother?

20 A. Not very long. Maybe three or four years, maybe three or four

21 years, yes.

22 MR. GUY-SMITH: With the Court's indulgence, I've just received an

23 indication that there may be some problems with translation on page 79,

24 line 11.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, let me just first find it. You said

Page 4047

1 page 79, line 11.

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm told that the answer given to my question was

3 different than the answer that's reflected in the --

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we -- perhaps you put the question again

5 to the witness.

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Surely.

7 JUDGE ORIE: And then we'll hear what her answer is.

8 Mr. Re.

9 MR. RE: While Mr. Guy-Smith's looking for that, could I ask for a

10 redaction of page 80, line 19, and page 80, lines 21 to 81, line 2.

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think that's probably appropriate exercise.


13 MR. GUY-SMITH: With the most discretion.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, then that would be a redaction page

15 80, line 19 up to and including 81, line 2.

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.

17 Q. Witness 61, I'm going to ask you a question that I asked you a few

18 moments ago just to make sure that we understand completely what -- what

19 your answer was. And the question is: And the bumps that you saw on this

20 man's face, were those bumps that you were able to see after the lights

21 were turned off and the television was on in the room? Could you see the

22 bumps then?

23 A. No. No.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 A. Maybe he had them because of his shaving.

Page 4048

1 Q. The information that -- the information that you gave your

2 father-in-law and your mother-in-law about what happened to you, you never

3 told them that when you suffered this ordeal you were a victim of many

4 people, were you -- did you? Did you ever say anything like that to them?

5 A. No. I told them that only the Toger was there.

6 Q. Okay. Do you -- do you remember after the first time that you met

7 with investigators that the second time when you met with investigators

8 you were shown some photos, do you remember that? That was after a few

9 months after the first time you spoke with -- with -- I believe it was an

10 investigator you met with. Do you remember that?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And when you were shown those photographs, do you remember how

13 many photographs you were shown? You were shown about eight photographs.

14 Does that -- is that a fair statement?

15 A. I don't know. They asked -- they asked me whether I know --

16 whether I know Toger. I said no. Then they showed me the photograph. I

17 don't know how many photographs they showed me.

18 Q. Okay. When you were shown the photographs, you weren't able,

19 after looking at the photographs, to pick out anybody in those photographs

20 who looked like a person you called Toger, were you?

21 A. No.

22 Q. Now, after the night of the ordeal, my question is --

23 MR. RE: I object to the question, I've just looked in the

24 witness's statement; that's not what the witness's statement says. I

25 don't object to the question, of course, but I'd simply ask Mr. Guy-Smith

Page 4049

1 to put the -- what the witness says in her statement to the witness rather

2 than: "You didn't pick out any -- anyone in those photos who looked like

3 a person called Toger." I'm referring to the third --


5 MR. RE: -- sentence.

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm -- I have -- I have absolutely no difficulty

7 in doing that. I think that the question that I asked accurately reflects

8 what happened, but for purposes of this discussion I'm happy to do it.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Then please do it. And would you also keep in

10 mind that -- Mr. Re, I don't know how many questions you would still have

11 basis of what you heard in cross-examination until now but ... One here,

12 yes.

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Hopefully until now there won't be too many more.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.

16 Q. When you were shown a sheet numbered PS1 with colour pictures of

17 eight faces of different men, "I do not recognise any of these men."

18 Correct? That's what you told them --

19 A. No -- yes.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Guy-Smith, a good photo-spread only shows

21 people who look at least the same more or less, so if one of the accused

22 is among them, then it would be surprising if no one looked like.

23 Therefore, I think what Mr. Re said is correct. It was a negative result

24 of a photo identification.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: It was a negative result.

Page 4050

1 JUDGE ORIE: That's most important, yes. Please proceed.


3 Q. I'm going to ask you two or three more questions, and what I'd

4 like you to do is I'd like you to confirm, if you could, that when you

5 spoke to the Prosecution investigators in -- and this would be about a

6 year ago, and I think that in terms of seasons it would have been, as

7 Mr. Emmerson said, the summer, about a year ago, you said that: "After

8 the night Toger raped me, I saw him often. I would see him in -- from my

9 front yard. I would never speak to him. I usually ran back into the

10 house. I also saw him in a car. He would often drive by the road in

11 front of our house."

12 That's what you told -- that's what you told the Prosecution

13 investigators; right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you ever hear of a commander in the Irzniq area by the name of

16 Shemsedin Ceku?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is he one of the people you spoke to about what happened in the

19 morning?

20 A. I think so, but I'm not sure. I think so. He was one of them,

21 Shemsedin, and there were two other people.

22 Q. I'd like you to also see if you could confirm one other statement

23 that you made to the Prosecutors, and that's paragraph 15 of the statement

24 of May which is: "I heard that Toger was in The Hague, but I never saw a

25 photograph of him afterwards. I've seen him on TV after Toger went to The

Page 4051

1 Hague. He looks older. The person on the TV didn't look like Toger to

2 me. He looks older. My family say that Toger was on the TV and that it

3 is Toger in The Hague."

4 Did you make that statement?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you.

7 A. No problem.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

9 MR. HARVEY: I have no questions for this witness. Thank you,

10 Your Honours.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You have no questions.

12 Then I -- Mr. Re, any questions on re-examination?

13 MR. RE: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

14 Re-examination by Mr. Re:

15 Q. Witness 61, I just want to take you to something Mr. Emmerson

16 asked you about, and that is when he asked you whether you had seen

17 anything unusual on the road which -- and you said no, that was in the

18 statement you gave earlier. What I just want you to tell the Trial

19 Chamber, the Judges, is: How were you feeling? What was your

20 psychological state as you were going back after what had happened to you

21 with Toger?

22 A. Well, how to say? I was not feeling well at all. I was very

23 scared of him.

24 Q. What sort of things were you looking for or what were you noticing

25 when you went -- when you went back home or what were the main thoughts in

Page 4052

1 your mind when you left the KLA headquarters and were going home, on the

2 way there?

3 A. Well, I was just thinking how they could take us away. There was

4 no need for them to take me away and for him to have his way with me in

5 that way. This is all I was thinking.

6 Q. When you say you were not feeling well, can you give the Trial

7 Chamber some more details about your feelings and what -- what it was that

8 you weren't feeling -- how you weren't feeling well.

9 A. Well, I don't really know what to say. When I told my husband

10 what had happened to me, what he had did me, of course he was feeling so

11 sad, and my family was feeling sad as well. After that, for three years I

12 couldn't have a child and I had to go to doctors. After I was treated by

13 the doctors I -- I felt well after that.

14 Q. Now, Mr. Guy-Smith asked you a moment ago about when you were

15 shown some photographs by some -- an investigator from the Prosecution. I

16 just want to read to you what your statement records you as saying on the

17 15th of October, 2002, that's the third sentence -- third paragraph in its

18 entirety.

19 "When I was shown by Matti Raatikainen a sheet numbered PS1 with

20 colour pictures of eight faces of different men, I did not recognise any

21 of these men. I would like to point out that the rape case happened four

22 years ago and I do feel that I would not be able to recognise anymore the

23 perpetrator or the KLA soldiers that were with him."

24 Now, is that what you said to the investigator?

25 A. [No interpretation]

Page 4053

1 Q. Now, is the -- do you think the reason you would not be able to

2 recognise anyone could be related to the fact that it was so long --

3 MR. RE: I withdraw the question.

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Microphone not activated] ... form.

5 MR. RE:

6 Q. Do you think four years afterwards you would have been able to

7 recognise the person called Toger?

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: The question is, as it's presently posed, calls

10 for, among other things, speculation on her part.


12 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I don't know to what extent. It really

13 forwards -- forwards the issue --

14 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask the witness to take her earphones off for

15 a second.

16 I'm just wondering the relevance of the question, Mr. Re. There

17 are two possible answers. The first is: Yes, I think I could have been

18 could have recognised him, then that means the negative results from the

19 photo-spread is significant. I don't know if it's that that you were

20 seeking to establish. Second option is she says: No, I couldn't. Then,

21 of course, one would wonder why she thinks she couldn't. The fact is that

22 she didn't, and further speculation on why and what could have been are

23 perhaps more confusing than assisting.

24 MR. RE: If it's of no assistance, I'll withdraw the question

25 that's --

Page 4054

1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, yes, of course if you see there is really

2 something -- but I just pointed to you what the answers could be and also

3 how they could be understood, and some of the questions might certainly

4 be -- I mean, one of the answers, if you say: Yes, I could, then if

5 you're seeking that, fine. Put the question to the witness and we'll hear

6 the answer. If the answer is no, it's -- I don't know how to interpret or

7 how to evaluate that. I would know how to interpret a yes, but

8 immediately it would come into my mind how a witness who says that she

9 could have identified someone, what's the basis for such a statement. I

10 mean, what makes a witness say I could or I could not? Is she a

11 psychologist? Is she -- I mean, it takes quite something to give an

12 assessment or a judgement on what you could have done in terms of

13 reproducing from your memory what you think you've seen once.

14 MR. RE: I'm not pursuing it. That's the completion of my

15 examination-in-chief -- re-examination.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

17 Have the questions in re-examination triggered any need --

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have no further questions.


20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do have one request before we would --

21 JUDGE ORIE: Before I -- let's just see whether the Bench would

22 have any further questions.

23 Yes, the witness has her earphones off, Mr. Emmerson, before I

24 would engage in a line of questioning on what I have in mind, I would like

25 to seek clarification with you because it relates to one of your

Page 4055

1 questions. You have read to the witness what we find on page 61, lines 13

2 up till and including line 18, and the last two of these lines are: "I

3 also have never heard anything from my husband and I don't know if he was

4 a witness of any crime."

5 Now, the witness has testified today what she heard from her

6 husband. If you interpret these last two lines, you could interpret them

7 in two ways. The first interpretation would be: My husband never told me

8 anything about killings, disappearances, et cetera, et cetera; or you

9 could interpret it as saying that he never told her any details. Because

10 it follows the previous line where it reads: "But I cannot name any

11 person who went missing or was killed because I almost never went out of

12 my house," so she has no personal knowledge. And then you could

13 understand the next line to be that her husband didn't gave such details

14 to her. Now, if that's how you understand the last line, there's no need

15 for further question; if, however, you understand this last line to mean

16 that her husband never, ever told her anything, even without details,

17 people being -- people missing, people killed, then I would put a few

18 additional questions to the witness.

19 MR. EMMERSON: I think I understand the distinction that

20 Your Honour is drawing. The emphasis in -- in -- or the reason for asking

21 the question in the first place relates to the last four or five words in

22 particular of that paragraph; in other words, I understand that to mean

23 that her husband never told her that he was personally a witness to the

24 commission of any crime.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's consistent with the testimony the

Page 4056

1 witness has given today I think.

2 MR. EMMERSON: That's my understanding.

3 JUDGE ORIE: At least there's no positive --

4 MR. EMMERSON: I'm not seeking to suggest from this passage that

5 he may never have referred to her instances about which he had heard

6 hearsay accounts but without the details.


8 MR. EMMERSON: What we do infer from the passage is that the

9 witness's account is that her husband never told her that he had seen or

10 heard himself the commission of a crime as a first-hand witness. That's

11 how I understood the passage and that's how I was intending it to be

12 understood by the Trial Chamber.

13 JUDGE ORIE: And seen or heard, you mean not heard of her --

14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, seen -- as in witnessing the commission of the

15 crime.


17 MR. EMMERSON: And it may be that Your Honours understand what the

18 reason for that line of questioning is.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand that, but I wanted to be sure

20 about why you read that to the witness, so see whether any further

21 clarification is needed and it seems from --

22 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- what you tell me now, that no further clarification

24 is needed.

25 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

Page 4057

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. I'm going back to the issue of

4 measurements. I'm hoping we can get the assistance of Victims and

5 Witnesses from the stand point of getting the --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's ask the witness first whether she

7 would --

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: If she would be willing to do so.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you ...

10 Witness 61, today you may have noticed that sometimes you are

11 asked about the length of persons, et cetera, et cetera. And that's

12 also -- in your statement, we find, and in your testimony we find elements

13 that might be relevant. Now, the problem is that we do not know exactly

14 what your length, at least, at this moment is. Would you mind that once

15 you've left this courtroom that, with the assistance of the Victims and

16 Witnesses Section, that they would just measure what your height is so

17 that at least the Chamber would know and is in a position to better assess

18 and evaluate your testimony. Would you mind if someone would just measure

19 you, write it down, and give it to the Chamber?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem for me.


22 Now, I have to address the parties. What would be the appropriate

23 way of introducing this information to the Chamber? Mr. Guy-Smith, would

24 it be necessary to call one of the persons of the Victims and Witnesses

25 Section to testify about it; or would a brief written report --

Page 4058

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe a brief written report is a stipulation

2 between parties would suffice. I have full confidence that they will be

3 in a position to make an accurate measurement.


5 Mr. Re, similar position, I do understand?

6 MR. RE: Yes, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Then of course in order to compare -- and, of course,

8 that's another matter, Mr. Guy-Smith --

9 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm more than happy to make myself available to

10 the same section so that they can measure me, too.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith, it's not only you but, I mean,

12 length of persons gains some relevance in respect of one of the accused as

13 well. That, of course, is a matter -- I don't know whether it's somewhere

14 on the record. I don't know whether you are intending to provide that

15 information to the Chamber. I think it --

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I am.

17 JUDGE ORIE: -- should be in your hand. Okay. Then we leave that

18 initiative to you.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, could you please inform the Victims

21 and Witnesses Section that the Chamber would highly appreciate if we would

22 know what the exact length of this witness is and that she -- that she

23 gave her consent for measurement.

24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Can the witness --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --

Page 4059

1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'll wait.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because I would like to thank the witness

3 because I'm also looking at the clock.

4 Witness 61, you've come to The Hague to testify. I'd like to

5 thank you very much for having done so and very having answered --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I also thank you very much.

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- to have answered the questions of both parties and

8 the questions -- well, only a few questions of the Bench. Therefore,

9 thank you and I wish you a safe trip home again.

10 Mr. Guy-Smith, for the witness to leave, we would have to pull the

11 curtains down. Is there anything at this moment, because otherwise we

12 could just adjourn and --

13 MR. GUY-SMITH: No. The last issue only dealt with one of the --

14 is really a thank you to one of my interns whose last day it was today,

15 since she's somebody who rarely gets to come to court and that's Mia Ter

16 Haar and I just wanted to indicate my thanks to her on the record because

17 she's worked very hard on this case and we're going to hate to see her to

18 go.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Guy-Smith, I gave it some thought today,

20 what it means if you don't remember faces.

21 If there's no other procedural matter to be discussed,

22 Madam Registrar, we will adjourn until Monday, the 14th of May, quarter

23 past 2.00, in Courtroom II.

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

25 to be reconvened on Monday, the 14th day of

Page 4060

1 May, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.