1 Monday, 14 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case
8 number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 Before I invite the Prosecution to call its next witness, I'd
11 just like to put on the record that in an e-mail, VWS has announced that
12 the result of the measurement of Witness 68 [sic] was 1 metre, 58
13 centimetres. Is that a measurement the parties could agree upon?
14 Mr. Guy-Smith.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: As far as I'm concerned, the answer to that would
16 be yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 Mr. Harvey, Mr. Emmerson? I see two times nodding yes, which I
19 understand to be an affirmation.
20 Mr. Di Fazio.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I have every faith in the abilities of VWS
22 to measure the witness.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 And I take it that this is also an acceptance of that fact and
25 not an acceptance of the fact that they are able to do it. Yes, thank
1 you. That's well understood.
2 Then, Mr. Di Fazio, the next witness, no protective measures have
3 been applied for, as far as I can see, although in the 2006 statement one
4 would perhaps expect such a thing --
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes, but that's -- that's not the case.
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- but it's not.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: There's just one very, very brief matter.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: I propose to tender his 92 ter statement.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: And there are some references in the last few
12 paragraphs, in particular paragraphs 29 through to the end of the
13 statement, that deal with some documents that should be kept
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: And I wonder how you would like me to proceed? I
17 have got two versions of that 92 ter statement; one that fully
18 includes -- that includes all those paragraphs; and another one that has
19 those paragraphs blacked-out.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll say one for --
21 MR. DI FAZIO: For the public --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- the public.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: -- consumption, and one under seal.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: And if we deal with it that way, I think that just
1 deals with the issue neatly.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Have they both already been uploaded into the
3 system, or not yet?
4 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm told they're both available, ready to go.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, do the two, the public and the
6 non-public version of a document, do they get the same number with some
7 annex, or is it two subsequent numbers? Yes.
8 Then perhaps you already assign to the 92 ter statement, the
9 non-public version, which number?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number 270,
11 marked for identification, under seal.
12 JUDGE ORIE: And the public version would then be 271, marked for
13 identification, not under seal. Is that well understood?
14 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: I see on the transcript I might have misspoken that
18 Witness 68 was 1 metre 58, but it's Witness 61 that has been measured,
19 just for correction of the transcript.
20 Mr. Emmerson.
21 MR. EMMERSON: May I simply say this, that there are expressions
22 of opinion in the statement of this witness --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. EMMERSON: -- which go to ultimate questions that the
25 Tribunal has to decide. They're not properly sourced. I don't imagine
1 anybody would think twice about relying upon them, but they do, I think,
2 find their way into the 92 ter statement.
3 I'm looking at paragraph 35 of the consolidated witness
4 statement, which I believe corresponds to paragraph 23 of the 92 ter
5 statement. Yes. Those are not matters for, with the greatest of
6 respect, they're not matters for a witness to give evidence about.
7 Obviously, he can give evidence about what he saw, but --
8 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no quarrel with this, let's -- and I agree.
9 MR. EMMERSON: ECMM witnesses are not, with the greatest of
10 respect, in a position to draw inferences about what connections could
11 properly be made from what, by any definition, was partial information
12 available to them. I simply raise it at this stage to put on the record
13 the fact that whilst there's been no objection to the admission of a 92
14 ter statement containing that material, the proper admissibility of that
15 material is a matter to be determined in due course.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And that's agreed upon by Mr. Di Fazio.
17 MR. EMMERSON: So it seems. Generally, may I make this
18 observation, that if there is material in a witness statement which is
19 plainly inadmissible, it ought not really to find its way into a 92 ter
20 statement because the 92 ter statement is a form of admission of
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio, are you ready to --
24 MR. DI FAZIO: I am.
25 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that these observations are shared by the
1 other counsel.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, they are.
3 MR. HARVEY: Very much so.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 Mr. Di Fazio --
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- I understand your next witness will be
8 Mr. Pappas.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: If you're ready to call him, I'll invite the usher
11 to escort the witness into the courtroom.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: The -- the summary I intend to read, and I don't
13 see any problem with reading that in the presence of the witness --
14 JUDGE ORIE: No, on the contrary.
15 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Mr. Pappas. Can
18 you hear me in a language you understand?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, of course.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. From your answer, I take it that you'll use
21 the English language in this courtroom.
22 THE WITNESS: I'll do my best, yes.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Before you give evidence,
24 Mr. Pappas, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a
25 solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and
1 nothing but the truth. The text is now handed out to you by the usher.
2 May I invite you to make that solemn declaration.
3 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I solemnly declare that I will
4 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Pappas.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: You'll first be examined by Mr. Di Fazio, and I
8 don't know whether Mr. Di Fazio explained already to you, but part of the
9 evidence you give will be through a written statement, and Mr. Di Fazio
10 will read a summary of that statement in order to inform the public what
11 it is about. So it's not a summary that is your evidence. You'll later
12 be asked about the statement itself, but this is just to inform the
13 public and to make transparent what happens in this courtroom.
14 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
16 A summary of the Rule 92 ter statement of Achilleas Pappas:
17 "Achilleas Pappas is an officer in the Greek Air Force. In early
18 January 1998, he was deployed with the European Commission Monitoring
19 Mission in Bosnia and Herzegovina. In July 1998, he was transferred to
20 Kosovo. He joined ECMM Team Pec I, based in Pec. He started to carry
21 out his monitoring duties, which included monitoring Serb troop
22 movements, meeting local community representatives, and obtaining
23 information about the KLA.
24 "The geographical extent of his work included the area up to the
25 south of Djakovica municipality, north to the Montenegrin border,
1 eastwards to the Klina municipality, and westwards to the Albanian
3 "He observed that Serb forces controlled the main towns, such as
4 Pec and Djakovica, and the main roads connecting these towns in western
5 Kosovo. Serbian check-points existed along these main roads.
6 "While looking for KLA check-points, he observed that
7 check-points on the Pec-Djakovica road were manned by young men on that
8 part of the road north of Decane. He encountered the same thing on the
9 Pec-Pristina road. The young men manning these check-points did not
10 claim to be members of the KLA. However, in the areas off the main
11 Pec-Djakovica road south of Decane" --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, would you please slow down?
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I will.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I noticed that several booths are a bit behind.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, my apologies.
16 "However, in the areas off the main Pec-Djakovica road south of
17 Decane, he noted the presence of KLA check-points.
18 "In villages in rural areas, he noted that the KLA received
19 public support by local villagers, but in private conversations he noted
20 an element of fear of the KLA amongst some villagers. He noted that the
21 KLA occupied rural areas away from the main roads. However, he did on
22 one occasion see a Serb tank and Serb soldiers looting and burning a
23 village south of the Pec-Pristina road.
24 "In carrying out his duties, he participated in the drafting of
25 reports and became familiar with reports detailing the activities of his
1 team. He can comment on a number of documents detailing the activities
2 of ECMM monitors.
3 "On 17 September 1998, he visited the local court in Pec and
4 spoke to court officials. As a result, he attended a makeshift morgue in
5 a hotel in Djakovica and the canal area near Lake Radonjic on
6 18 September 1998. He saw 24 body-bags at the morgue. After visiting
7 the canal site, he went to a small nearby farm in company with Serb
8 officials and saw cables alleged to have been used to tie-up victims and
9 one which had what he thought was human hair still attached. He also saw
10 a small training ground at the farm, and he noted targets for rifle
11 practice with bullet-holes and other fixtures that seemed to be part of
12 an obstacle course.
13 "Mr. Pappas met with Ramush Haradinaj on one occasion on
14 11 August 1998. Oral evidence will be led of this encounter. He
15 observed him to be a cool-headed individual who exercised tight control
16 over his subordinates."
17 That, if Your Honours please, is the summary of the Rule 92 ter
19 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to rise.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if I might invite Mr. Di Fazio - and it
22 may, I readily recognise, be entirely my misunderstanding - but I wonder
23 if I might invite him to identify which paragraph in the 92 ter statement
24 the first sentence and the second sentence of paragraph 3 in the summary
25 that he has read are drawn from.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. That's -- sorry, just bear with me, Your
2 Honours, I can -- I can find it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: What specifically? It comes close to 11, from what
4 I --
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I'm just wondering --
6 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know what portion exactly you had in mind,
7 but --
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, it is 11, it is 11. I'm sorry, for some
9 reason, my copy's incomplete. I apologise for that. It is. It should
10 be paragraph 11, that's -- that's -- that deals with it. Yes.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm sorry, it may be my misunderstanding,
12 but I don't understand paragraph 11 to indicate that there were
13 check-points on the main roads manned by young men who were other than
14 Serbs. So it doesn't seem to me, with respect, to reflect that paragraph
15 at all. It seems to be referring to check-points in territory off the
16 main road.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Well -- well --
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Every day they drove off the main Pec-Djakovica
20 road --
21 MR. EMMERSON: The first two sentences of paragraph 3 and, in
22 fact, the first three sentences of paragraph 3, seem to be indicating
23 that there were check-points by persons who were armed and who were
24 obviously not Serbs on the main roads, and that does not seem to me to be
25 a reflection of the statement at all.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Right. I'm sorry. I should -- perhaps it should
2 be that the check-points were -- were off the main road -- my apologies,
3 I --
4 MR. EMMERSON: It says -- the summary says: "On the main road."
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, yes. I agree. Perhaps if I --
6 JUDGE ORIE: The summary is not evidence, and it should read "off
7 the main road."
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes --
9 MR. EMMERSON: And in the second sentence also, "off the main
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, "off the main road," that's right. That's
12 right. Mr. Emmerson is quite right, and for the purposes of the record,
13 the -- those check-points manned by young men were check-points off those
14 two main roads.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
18 I wonder, if Your Honours please, if the witness could be shown
19 the public version of his 92 ter statement, that's Exhibit 271, please.
20 WITNESS: ACHILLEAS PAPPAS.
21 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
22 Q. Mr. Pappas, I'm going to show you versions of -- copies of your
23 statement; one is going to be public and one will be in private session.
24 Could you please look at this version that I now produce to you on the --
25 on the screen?
1 MR. DI FAZIO: And if the usher would -- if the court officer
2 would be so kind as to scroll down and indicate the signatures.
3 Q. Is that -- does your signature appear at the bottom of that
5 A. Yes, it does.
6 Q. And it gives details of various dates of interview and places of
7 interview, locations, and the persons who interviewed you in producing
8 that statement. Are those details correct?
9 A. Yeah, as far as I can see, everything's correct.
10 Q. Right. And you've had an opportunity to read that statement that
11 you provided to the various officers of the OTP?
12 A. I read it before I signed it, and I read it afterwards.
13 Q. And does it provide information that you would provide if
14 questioned about those various topics?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please and if there's no
18 objection, I don't think I need to take him through each and every page
19 with each and every signature. I would now like to tender that document
20 into evidence.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, Rule 92 ter (A)(iii) asks that a
22 witness attest that a written statement of transcript accurately reflects
23 that witness declaration and what the witness would say if examined.
24 Now, you could say it's almost the same, but since the rule asks for
25 both, I think you asked him the first one.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pappas, would you give the same answers if
3 examined on these matters?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection against admission? No objection.
6 Then the 92 ter statement, we're now talking about the public version,
7 that is Exhibit 271, is admitted into evidence.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
9 MR. EMMERSON: Subject -- if I may respectfully say so, no
10 objection subject to --
11 JUDGE ORIE: To the observation you made --
12 MR. EMMERSON: -- the objection that I made earlier on about the
13 admissibility of certain conclusions.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: That's understood, if Your Honours please. Thank
17 And now I'd like to, if Your Honours please, move into private
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We'll ...
20 [Private session]
11 Page 4073 redacted. Private session
1 [Confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]
2 MR. DI FAZIO:
3 Q. Mr. Pappas, you've provided the parties and the Trial Chamber
4 with a lot of information in your statement. I want to ask you,
5 basically, questions about one major topic in your statement -- in the
6 statement you originally provided to the OTP, and that concerns events
7 that took place on the 11th of August, 1998.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, by the time the 11th of August, 1998, came about, how long
10 approximately had you been in Kosovo?
11 A. Almost -- almost a month, a little bit less.
12 Q. And by this stage, had you travelled up and down the roads
13 connecting the main towns, in particular Pec -- the roads connecting Pec,
14 Decani, Djakovica?
15 A. Almost every day, except the first three to four days that I
16 spended to know the area, you know, even in -- in the town of Pec.
17 Q. And was one of your duties the observation of fighting that was
18 occurring between Serb forces and the KLA?
19 A. That's correct, yes.
20 Q. Now, on the 11th of August, did you go out on patrol, so to
22 A. Yeah, we followed the schedule as every day.
23 Q. And how were you travelling on that occasion?
24 A. We had our own armoured Land Rover, and we have a senior of
25 European Union and monitors in both languages, in Serbian and Albanian.
1 Q. And did the vehicle that you were travelling in, the Land Rover,
2 did it have decals or stickers attached to it?
3 A. All these flags that I mentioned and the insignia were stickers
4 attached to the car.
5 Q. Right. And what did the stickers and the insignia denote, what
6 did they say, in other words?
7 A. It was the phrase, a single word "observations" -- excuse me.
8 "Observers" in both languages, Serbian and Albanian. They had also big
9 flags of European Union and two small flags of Greece --
10 Q. When you're answering your question, just sit a little bit closer
11 if you don't mind to the speakers so we can pick up what you're saying?
12 And incidentally, wait for me to finish the questions because it
13 all has to be taken down and as it's not being interpreted on this
14 occasion, the -- our conversation's going faster than normal.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. I want to show you a photograph, please.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown 65 ter --
18 JUDGE ORIE: I still do not know what the small flags were from.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please tell us?
21 THE WITNESS: What did you say?
22 JUDGE ORIE: You said the two small flags of --
23 THE WITNESS: Of my country, the two small flags of Greece, it
24 was one on the back and one on the front of the car.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 I'd like to show a photograph, please. Can the witness be shown
3 Exhibit 65 ter 1334, please? Okay.
4 Q. Is that a photograph of your vehicle?
5 A. Yeah, that's it.
6 Q. And the vehicles I think you can see -- the stickers I think you
7 can see on the door of the vehicle. Is that the -- showing the European
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please I seek --
12 Q. One matter. Underneath is a date, electronically --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Before we continue, Mr. Di Fazio, you asked for
14 private session at the beginning of the -- of showing the witness the
15 non-public version of his statement but we did not return into open
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I'm sorry. I apologise for that.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We return into open session and the Chamber hereby
19 decides that that portion of the evidence, which was given after the
20 confidential statement had been confirmed by the witness, will be public.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
1 Q. Mr. Pappas, I was just asking you about this photograph, now that
2 we're back in public session. You said that that's the vehicle that you
3 and your team used, and there's just one last aspect about the photograph
4 that I want to ask you about and that's the date down below. Is that an
5 accurate date or not?
6 A. No, no, it's not accurate.
7 Q. What's wrong with it?
8 A. I -- I bought the camera earlier in Bosnia during my tour of
9 mission, but it was bought from a Norwegian PXO. I couldn't read the
10 instructions and use it properly. So, it's a little bit earlier than it
11 should be.
12 Q. I think the expression you used was a Norwegian --
13 A. -- Norwegian.
14 Q. -- Norwegian PX, and that's some sort of military store for
15 soldiers on duty?
16 A. Yeah, right. That's it.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours, please, I'll tender that
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P272,
21 marked for identification.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection?
23 No objections, admitted into evidence. Please proceed.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
25 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber on the 11th of August, when you
1 went out on your patrol, who exactly was with you on that occasion, who
2 constituted your team?
3 A. The team at that day was myself, the gentleman Kaufmann,
4 Wolfgang Kaufmann. There was a visitor from RC Belgrade, and his name
5 was Penti and he was Finnish, as I recall. We also had an interpreter
6 with us, and -- in any case, that we were driving outside of the road in
7 KLA areas, we only had with us the Albanian interpreter.
8 Q. Thank you. Who was in charge of the team?
9 A. The man in charge was the German guy, Wolfgang Kaufmann.
10 Q. Thank you. And you mentioned the visitor from RC Belgrade, is
11 that short for Regional Centre Belgrade?
12 A. Yeah, that's it.
13 Q. Thank you. On that day, were you interested in observing
15 A. As soon as we start driving southwards on the way to Decani from
16 Pec, where we are located, we heard shell explosions very distantly, and
17 we were trying to -- to go closer. That was our main purpose.
18 Q. What direction were you actually headed towards? What area were
19 you interested in?
20 A. As always, we were driving southwards on the way to Decani and
21 further to Djakovica, and then we were leaving the road between Decani
22 and Djakovica, and we were moving easterly.
23 Q. Why did you leave the road? What was your reason in leaving the
24 main road?
25 A. We were aware that that was a main area for KLA presence in our
1 area of responsibility.
2 Q. Why not use the main road to go south?
3 A. At that occasion that we were able to hear shell explosions,
4 Wolfgang, Mr. Kaufmann, decided to -- to take another road than the main
5 one in order not to have any delays or stopping from Serbian
7 Q. Right. Okay. So your -- do I understand your evidence to be
8 this: You were interested in getting to a particular area?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Could you have, in an ideal situation, could you have got to
11 that -- could you have gotten to that area using the main road if you had
12 wanted to?
13 A. Yeah. I believe that we could do that, but we might be a little
14 delayed or --
15 Q. What was going to delay you? What was going to be a problem, if
16 you had taken the main road?
17 A. Sometimes when the Serbs wanted -- wanted us not to see
18 something, they were alleged -- they were alleging security reasons not
19 to let us pass, but of course after some discussion, they were obliged to
20 lead us.
21 Q. Well, do I understand that you left the main road because of
22 fears that the Serbs may stop you at one -- at a check-point?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you. And can you remember which road you took once
25 you left the main road to get closer to -- well, wherever you wanted to
2 A. I can't recall each and every name from villages that we passed,
3 but if I see a map ...
4 Q. Okay. I'm going to produce a map to you.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown Exhibit D32, please?
6 Q. Mr. Pappas, I'm going to -- a map's going to come up on the
7 screen in a moment.
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. On the right-hand side of that screen that you have in front of
10 you, just to the side - perhaps Mr. Usher might help here - is a magic
11 pencil on which you can mark the route with a magic pen, so to speak, and
12 you can just pick it up off the side of the screen and touch the --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Usher, could you, please, assist the witness?
14 MR. DI FAZIO:
15 Q. And you can touch the glass on the screen and mark your -- the
16 route that you took. So I'm going to ask you to do that, and before we
17 get to that point, I'd like the map to be enhanced a bit. The -- it's
18 the mid-left-hand quadrant that I'm interested in. That's probably --
19 A. A little bit bigger, not so zoomed-in.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps --
21 THE WITNESS: Zoom out.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: -- zoom out a bit. Just -- no, that's too far.
23 THE WITNESS: Okay.
24 MR. DI FAZIO:
25 Q. Is that okay? Okay. Now, if you could just look at the map and
1 mark with a pen the route that you took and indicate the names of the
2 villages you passed through before your journey came to a halt on that
4 A. Given that we start from Pec, came southwards, we took the way to
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. And from that point -- I have to have a little bit of a zoom
9 Q. Yeah --
10 JUDGE ORIE: There's a problem. As the witness starts marking,
11 any change in zooming-in or zooming-out would -- I would then suggest
12 that --
13 MR. EMMERSON: May I make a practical suggestion?
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. EMMERSON: We've got some paper copies in A3 size, and if the
16 witness at least has that in front of him, then he'll be in a position to
17 see precisely what it is he's looking at.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pappas, would that help you, if you would have a
19 paper copy next to you which you can consult when marking the electronic
21 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that would do better. Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, marking, you're invited to do the
23 marking on the screen.
24 THE WITNESS: So we -- we got off the road, the main road, in the
25 place next to the village of Rausic. We'd been there, and then we follow
1 this country road all the way to Krusevac --
2 MR. DI FAZIO:
3 Q. Okay. Can you perhaps indicate that, please?
4 A. Krusevac, here, this way.
5 And then we moved to -- to Brolic, which is on the south of
6 Krusevac, maybe around here. And then we moved to Ljumbarda, Donja Luka,
7 Pozar, and finally Rznic.
8 Q. Thank you. And have you marked all of those now?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Not yet, as far as I can see.
10 THE WITNESS: Ljumbarda, Donja Luka, Pozar, and Rznic.
11 MR. DI FAZIO:
12 Q. Thank you very much. Don't touch the screen again.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: And, if Your Honours please, I seek to tender that
14 into evidence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be ...?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P273,
17 marked for identification.
18 MR. EMMERSON: No objection.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No objections, then it is admitted into evidence.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: And I'm grateful to the Defence for providing the
21 hard copy of the map.
22 Q. I want to ask you now about what you saw along this route. I'm
23 not talking about what happened in Rznic, I'll get to that later, but
24 first what you observed and saw along this route.
25 Firstly, were there any check-points?
1 A. Yeah, we find some from Rausic and further. In some occasions we
2 found some check-points, and there was a main one in Krusevac.
3 Q. Now, what sort of check-points were these? Who manned these
5 A. People in civilian clothes. They were not wearing uniforms.
6 Q. Okay. And were they members of any organisation?
7 A. I couldn't say that because when we were asking if they were KLA,
8 without wearing a uniform, nobody was admitting that. They were saying
9 that they were fighting, but no KLA members.
10 Q. Did you see -- all right, okay. Did you see any insignia on the
11 clothes of these people?
12 A. At that time, no, until there -- until Krusevac.
13 Q. And what happened in Krusevac?
14 A. From that point and on, we were seeing people fleeing the area,
15 you know, leaving the area, civilians.
16 Q. I'm just talking about check-points at the moment.
17 A. No, until Rznic, we find no other check-point.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Did you see civilians on -- as you took that
19 trip to Rznic?
20 A. Yes, we saw a lot from Krusevac almost until Kodralija, which is
21 very close to Rznic.
22 Q. And just describe for the Trial Chamber what you observed, what
23 sort of numbers, who these people were, how they were moving?
24 A. It's only a rough estimation, but I would say they might be
25 2.500, maybe 3.000 people.
1 Q. And were they civilians and of Albanian ethnicity?
2 A. Yes, all of them.
3 Q. And how were they moving, were they travelling?
4 A. They were moving on -- on foot, and some of them on horse-carts
5 or tractors.
6 Q. At this time, as you are approaching Rznic, could you -- could
7 you hear the sound of shelling?
8 A. Yes. On our way down there as -- as long as we were approaching
9 Rznic, we were hearing louder and louder these explosions.
10 Q. So as you -- all right. So it -- were you, in effect,
11 approaching an area that was being shelled?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you have any idea what that area was at the time, as you were
14 heading down the road?
15 A. We were just estimating that it would be from Rznic until
16 Babaloc. This -- this area, it's about 10 kilometres.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you -- as you moved along the roads and saw the
18 convoys, did you -- did you seek the services of a guide?
19 A. Yes. We were trying to find an elevation, a place that were not
20 being problems of safety, and at the same time we would be able to -- to
21 observe what is happening.
22 Q. All right. And so that's what you wanted to do, so how did you
23 achieve that?
24 A. So for -- in Kodralija, that place close to Rznic, there was a
25 young man that told us he can lead us to a place like that and Kaufmann
1 invite him to -- to come to our car.
2 Q. And where did he take you?
3 A. He took us straight to Rznic, which is not in -- a place that
4 you -- you could say that it's an elevation.
5 Q. Thank you. And did he leave you at Rznic, this young man?
6 A. Yeah. Yes, yes.
7 Q. Thank you. I want to ask you now about events in Rznic.
8 Firstly, was there shelling occurring at the time and -- in the area of
10 A. There were shelling, but very close to Rznic, in Rznic also, but
11 most of the shelling was south-east.
12 Q. All right. Now, I want you to tell the Trial Chamber what
13 happened once you arrived in Rznic.
14 A. Once we arrived in Rznic, the place was abandoned, there was no
15 people there, nobody. So we stopped in a place that it should be the
16 centre of the village, we stopped the car. We got down, we got off the
17 car. We were trying to see if there's anybody in the close area. And at
18 the time, myself and Penti tried to convince Kaufmann that it's too
19 dangerous for us to be there, so he decided that we should leave.
20 Q. And did you make an attempt to leave?
21 A. Yeah, we got in the car. We turned the car on, tried to leave
22 the place, and then there was a car from -- a small jeep, and two men
23 were inside and they blocked our way.
24 Q. Were these men in uniform?
25 A. Yeah, they were wearing kind of German uniforms.
1 Q. When you say "German uniforms," were they camouflage uniforms?
2 A. I would rather say German-like uniforms because it's the same
3 type of uniform that I -- I saw in Bosnia first time.
4 Q. All right. Was it a camouflage uniform, even though it may have
5 been a German camouflage uniform?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Did they have any insignia on -- on the uniform?
8 A. They have insignia of UCK, yes.
9 Q. All right. You mean KLA?
10 A. KLA.
11 Q. Thank you. And they were armed?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. All right. Okay. What did they -- what did they do? What did
14 they ask of you?
15 A. They stopped us, and they were asking what are we doing there,
16 who are we, and these kind of questions. And they asked us to turn
17 around the car again and be back to Rznic.
18 Q. While that -- whilst you were first dealing with these men, was
19 there any shelling going on?
20 A. Yeah, there was and after we stopped at the same almost position
21 that we stop in the first place, they ask us to follow them into a yard
22 with big walls around. They were leading us into a house.
23 Q. Okay --
24 A. And there was an explosion of a -- of a shell very close to us.
25 Q. All right.
1 A. Maybe 40 metres.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: I'd like the witness to look at two photographs.
4 I can do these fairly quickly, if Your Honours please. They're 65 ter
5 1331, page 13 and 14 of that exhibit.
6 Q. Witness, I'd just like you to have a look at these photographs
7 and tell us if you recognise -- recognize them?
8 MR. DI FAZIO: And if they could be shown one after the other.
9 Q. Thanks. Do you recognise that area?
10 A. Yes, I recognise that.
11 Q. What's that? What does it show?
12 A. Firstly, it's taken from the road that we approached Rznic.
13 Q. All right.
14 A. It shows right in front the place that it was totally -- it was
15 only grass there in front of us.
16 Q. Right.
17 A. It is a big square. And then on the left hand, where you see the
18 car parked --
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. -- that's the place where we parked our car. In front of this,
21 there's a big door of the yard of the house.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: And if the witness could just be quickly shown the
24 other -- the other photograph.
25 Q. And I don't think there's any doubt, that's the same area, isn't
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. All right. Thank you.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar --
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, tender --
6 JUDGE ORIE: -- these two photographs would be -- or do we ...
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, it's not entirely clear to me. They
9 are --
10 MR. DI FAZIO: They form --
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- annexes B and C to the witness statement?
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just check. So there are three attachments,
14 and many of the other documents the witness is talking about are not
15 attached to the statement?
16 MR. DI FAZIO: No.
17 JUDGE ORIE: It's just --
18 MR. DI FAZIO: I may not actually need to tender this, since it's
19 already part of the statement.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: If --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If this is part -- if these attachments are
23 part of the statement, there's no need to further tender them.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well. Thank you. I'm grateful to
25 Your Honours. I'll move on.
1 Q. Did you -- did you walk into Rznic with these two men, these two
2 KLA soldiers or drive in towards Rznic?
3 A. No, we were just -- entered the house when the shell exploded.
4 Q. Right.
5 A. So they were maybe concerned about us, too, and they said to us,
6 You are free to go -- go away, you know, and then we -- we enter again
7 the car to leave the place.
8 Q. Before you did that, did you see any damage? Were you shown any
9 damage, any damage in Rznic?
10 A. Not at this point.
11 Q. Thank you. So you -- you decided to leave, and did you attempt
12 to leave?
13 A. Yeah, we got out of this main gate, let's say, of the yard of the
14 house, and then we saw another group of people, five, six persons, coming
15 to us, and they were also KLA in uniforms, and they were a little bit
17 Q. Right. Okay. And these were KLA -- men in uniform with -- armed
18 and with KLA insignia on their uniforms?
19 A. Yeah, yeah, same with the others.
20 Q. I see. And what happened then?
21 A. The -- they were enraged, let's say, and they were upset. They
22 asked us to follow them, and they were showing us around places that were
23 shelled recently, maybe the same day, like the mosque you see in the --
24 on the picture, on the right side of the picture, it was shelled. And
25 very close to that was an unsophisticated field hospital also.
1 Q. And --
2 A. That was damaged.
3 Q. Right. And how long were you with them looking at this -- this
5 A. About 15 minutes. We were walking around in this place, and they
6 were saying stuff in Albanian, and they were showing us around the place.
7 Q. And your Albanian interpreter was providing you with an
8 interpretation as to what was -- what was being said and the comments
9 that they were making?
10 A. He was trying to do that, but, you know, they were talking a lot
11 of people together, and he was giving us an overall what they were
13 Q. Right. Okay. And it's clear they're upset about the damage that
14 had occurred to the village?
15 A. Yeah.
16 Q. Thank you. All right. Now, that lasted about 15 minutes, did
18 A. Almost, yes.
19 Q. Okay. What did you do after that?
20 A. They told us the same with the previous group of two men, to
21 leave the place, and then we -- we got in the car almost, all of us,
22 trying to get away.
23 Q. Did you manage to get away?
24 A. No, because at the same time that we were trying to leave,
25 another car arrived, it was a black jeep, black -- big one.
1 Q. And how many men were in this black jeep?
2 A. Three men.
3 Q. Now, what sort of uniform did they have, if any?
4 A. They have different uniform. They had black uniforms with
5 insignia of KLA.
6 Q. Okay. And were they armed?
7 A. Yeah, they had, two of them, guns in their hands and some
8 waistcoats -- waistcoat with pockets for ammunition and stuff and knives.
9 Q. Okay. And what did they say -- what did they say to you?
10 A. For another time we had the same set of questions, you know, Who
11 are you? Why are you here?
12 Q. And what was their demeanour? By that I mean, what -- how did
13 they -- how did they appear? What sort of mood were they in?
14 A. Well, they were much more aggressive than the ones we met before,
15 but not all of them.
16 Q. Yes. Please continue your narrative. They -- you said that they
17 were aggressive and they had some questions for you, and continue telling
18 us what happened.
19 A. They were yelling and gesturing, especially the one that I -- I
20 would say he was the man in charge. And after a very brief time of maybe
21 one, two minutes, he ordered us to get into the car and follow his car.
22 Q. Did you do that?
23 A. Yeah, we did that.
24 Q. Why did you do -- I'd like you to explain your thinking and the
25 reasons why you did what you did to the Trial Chamber. Why did you
1 follow and simply not turn your vehicle around and go in the opposite
2 direction? What -- what was it that made you feel that you were
3 compelled to do this?
4 A. Definitely --
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well --
6 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, that's an extraordinarily leading
7 question in the circumstances. The word "compelled" may well be one of
8 the issues --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you rephrase your question?
10 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll rephrase it. I'll rephrase it.
11 Q. My question is simply this: Why follow them?
12 A. The feeling was that it wouldn't be so wise not to do so.
13 Q. Was that your feeling or was that discussed amongst the men in
14 the car, in the vehicle with you?
15 A. It was discussed in the vehicle, and we also were very worried
16 because we saw that we were moving to -- to the main area of shelling at
17 the time.
18 Q. And what area were you, in fact, moving towards?
19 A. We were moving to Gllogjan.
20 Q. Did you arrive there?
21 A. Yes, we arrived about two, three minutes.
22 Q. And where did you stop?
23 A. We stopped on a small road where there were houses around, big
24 walls, like the one we saw in Rznic, and yards. One specific place were
25 a lot of people coming in and out and we thought that was an HQ of KLA.
1 Q. Thank you. Could you look, please, at 65 ter 1332?
2 Do you recognise that place?
3 A. Yeah, I recognise it.
4 Q. What is it?
5 A. That's a place in front of which we stopped on that day, the one
6 we thought it's the HQ.
7 Q. Okay. And when -- on the day that you stopped there, was that
8 rubble or stones, was that --
9 A. No, no --
10 Q. -- visible?
11 A. -- that was not the image that day.
12 Q. Do you know who took this photograph and when?
13 A. I took that photograph myself. It might be middle of September.
14 Q. Okay. And why? Why did you take that photo?
15 A. We were at the area patrolling again, and I recognised the big
16 doors and that place, that specific place, that we had this incident and
17 as a memory of mine I get the picture.
18 Q. Okay. When you -- when you took this photo, was the -- were
19 there buildings inside this -- inside this area or behind those walls?
20 A. There was one that one can see next to the -- on the left side of
21 the door. There is obviously a room inside this -- inside this door --
22 these walls, but there was another floor on the top of this, another
24 Q. So does this photograph show that other storey that you mention?
25 A. No, it's completely destroyed.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: And I don't think this photo is part of the 65 --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, that's exactly what is so confusing.
4 We have annex A, annex B, annex C, but usually if you make an annex to a
5 statement or a document, in that document you find what annexes are
6 attached. I don't see anywhere in the -- or perhaps I have not read
7 carefully, but I do not see in the 92 ter statement any reference to any
9 MR. DI FAZIO: To these particular annexes because --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
11 MR. DI FAZIO: -- because they were -- they arise as part of the
12 statement that was removed from the -- from the 92 ter --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's so confusing. So now we have annexes to
14 a document which do not in any way say that they are annexes, and now it
15 turns out that annex D is not part of it, and annex A, B, and C are. But
16 we have seen earlier B and C, these are the photographs of the --
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- what was described by the witness as the centre
19 of Rznic.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that an identity document related to
22 this witness is annex A --
23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- which is attached, although not mentioned in the
25 statement. And that now annex D is the photograph just shown which is
1 not attached to the 92 ter statement.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that photograph would be ...?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P274,
5 marked for identification.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 Any objection to its admission? I see no objection, so therefore
8 it is admitted.
9 At the same time, Mr. Di Fazio, let me just try to fully
10 understand -- let me just ...
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
12 [Trial Chamber and legal officer confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, let me just try to understand. The
14 witness took this photograph. Yes?
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: So, therefore, it reflects what he saw at the time,
17 I take it.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: On -- a month later.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
20 MR. DI FAZIO: A month later.
21 JUDGE ORIE: A month later.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Or thereabouts, thereabouts.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, middle of September --
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- that explains -- yes. Yes. I overlooked that.
1 I apologise.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio --
3 MR. EMMERSON: Might I just ask Mr. Di Fazio to explore, if
4 possible, with the witness in as much detail as he's able to when exactly
5 this photograph was taken in relation to visits to Gllogjan upcoming?
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Sure, I can do that. I can do that.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And if you are exploring that, I also wonder,
8 Mr. Di Fazio, I don't know whether you wanted the Chamber to understand
9 from the testimony of this witness who was responsible for the damage
10 done by the shelling or not --
11 MR. DI FAZIO: If he can answer it --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: -- I'll get full details on that, if Your Honours
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please, please, explore the matter.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
17 Q. We've been talking about events thus far that occurred on the
18 11th of August?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, in relation to that date, when did you take that photo that
21 you can see on the screen?
22 A. I believe it's same day that we visit with the rest of the team
23 the place that bodies were found in a mass grave, and that's on the 18th
24 of September.
25 Q. I see. Right. Of course, you refer to that in your statement,
1 and that's the visit to the lake?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. So when you conducted that visit, you think that's the day that
4 you stopped in --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- Glodjane and took that particular photograph?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is that what your memory tells you?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, the other question that the Trial Chamber wanted
11 answered, if you can, is the rubble that you see there and the damage --
12 or at least the rubble that you can see piled up against that wall, have
13 you any idea who caused that and how it was caused?
14 A. No.
15 Q. When you saw the place on the 11th of August, was that wall
16 clean, so to speak, without any rubble on it at all?
17 A. Yes, it was clean.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honour, I think that's about as far as the
20 witness, if Your Honours please.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. DI FAZIO:
23 Q. All right. So you've got to the point where you've told us that
24 you followed the jeep, and you stopped at this location that you can see
25 on the screen. Were there -- were there other people at this -- at this
1 location, apart from the men who you'd followed and apart from your own
3 A. Yeah, there were a lot of people coming in and out from this --
4 Q. What sort of people? How were they dressed?
5 A. Most of them, they have these camouflage uniforms that we said
6 before, with insignia of KLA. Some of them, very few of them, were
7 wearing black uniforms --
8 Q. Okay --
9 A. -- except the men that took us there.
10 Q. Right. Well, it's not quite clear from what you say. The men
11 that took you there, the men that you've already spoken about and you
12 said that they were in black, dressed in black uniform?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Apart from those men whom you followed in the jeep, were there
15 other men at this location dressed in black uniforms?
16 A. Only a few.
17 Q. Only a few?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Thank you. And how long were you at -- outside of this compound,
20 this location?
21 A. Only a few minutes. Two, three minutes maybe.
22 Q. Okay. And can you please tell the Trial Chamber what happened
23 when you were at this location, and this is the period of time when you
24 first arrived, the first two or three minutes?
25 A. We stopped the car right after the black jeep, and then we were
1 ordered to get out of the car. And when we all get out of the car, the
2 man, as I said, in charge of these -- this group of three persons, he was
3 very upset, swearing in Albanian and saying things. And he was calling
4 us Serb spies.
5 Q. And how do you know he was calling you Serb spies? Did you
6 understand what he was saying at the time or is that information you
7 acquired later?
8 A. No. At the time, we could not say what he was saying to us. We
9 could not understand that. After the whole incident, we found out.
10 Q. Was that via your Albanian interpreter?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Were the stickers still on your car?
13 A. At the time, yes, but after few moments, after he was -- start
14 shouting and gesturing, he was -- start getting off the stickers.
15 Q. And which one is "he"? Who do you refer to there?
16 A. I refer to the person that seemed to be the head of this group of
17 three persons that took us there.
18 Q. Okay. Can you describe the physical -- physical --
19 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm sorry.
20 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon, Mr. Di Fazio, could you pause a little
21 bit between answers and questions.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I'm sorry, Your Honours, it's -- I'm --
23 it's --
24 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You know, for what purpose --
25 MR. DI FAZIO: I should be more mindful of it, and I apologise to
1 the interpreters.
2 Q. It's my mistake, Mr. Pappas, I'm just going too fast, but bear in
3 mind -- have some mercy on the interpreters who have to translate all of
4 our -- all of our phrases.
5 I'd like you to provide a physical description of the man you
6 have described as the leader of this -- of this group of three. Can you
7 give us an idea of colour of his hair, complexion, his height and his
8 age, if you can?
9 A. Yeah. I wrote back then a report, and to be exact I went through
10 this report to remember all the incidents and all the persons I was
11 describing. That report went to the Embassy of Greece in Belgrade and
12 Sarajevo, and I was describing that person as of height of 1 metre and 70
13 centimetres; dark hair; and I would say a little bit dark complexity
15 Q. All right.
16 A. Slim.
17 Q. What we need to know, what the Trial Chamber needs to know, is
18 whether you are in a position to provide a description of this individual
19 from our own memory, or whether you have to rely on some report that
20 you've -- you've provided in the past?
21 A. I could easily recognise the face because I don't forget easily,
22 you know, faces. But for the overall description, I should check my
23 documents, too. I mean, the age or -- it was about 20, 25 years old at
24 the time. That was my estimation.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Forgive me for interrupting.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Emmerson.
2 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder whether Mr. Di Fazio can throw any light
3 on the existence of such a document because, again it may be my mistake,
4 but I'm not aware of having received copies of that particular report by
5 this witness to the Greek government. I have another report by him to
6 the Greek government, and I have a report filed with the ECMM, but I
7 don't recall seeing the document that the witness has obviously consulted
8 sufficiently recently to be able to refresh his memory on the
9 descriptions that he's giving.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Emmerson is correct. The report that has been
11 provided, which I provided to the Defence last week, is a report authored
12 by this witness, and it concerns events essentially at the -- most of it
13 concerns events and observations at the lake.
14 There is a second report that the witness provided. Now, I
15 haven't seen that report. I know that the witness has it and the
16 witness -- could we perhaps go into private session just to complete the
17 submission, please.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we will.
19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
20 [Private session]
11 Pages 4102-4122 redacted. Private session
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, another matter which can be dealt with also in
24 open session. A correspondence has been copied to the Chamber in
25 relation to Witness 60, and the Defence has indicated that this
1 correspondence might have relevance for the proofing decision the Chamber
2 will have to take.
3 Under those circumstances, it would be appropriate - I'm not
4 saying whether we are going to use it either in favour or not in favour
5 of one of the parties, but then it would be appropriate to file this so
6 that it's officially on the record.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: And at the same time, Mr. Di Fazio, then since it
9 has been suggested that it's relevant material for our decision, if the
10 Prosecution would respond to the relevance of this new development, you
11 have an opportunity to do so. You know already the correspondence the
12 Defence is expected to file, if you want us to look at it, within the
13 next 24 hours, and the Prosecution has 36 hours to say something about
14 it. It's just an incident to which our attention has been drawn, no
15 more, no less. It's not really argument, it's just illustration, I would
16 say, rather than anything else.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Mr. Pappas, we have considered the matter, and we would like to
20 instruct you, since you declared you were willing to do so, we would like
21 to ask you, therefore, to make the redactions in the statement, at least
22 in a copy of the statement, and provide the redacted statement to the
23 Tribunal for translation, so that the parties can at least look at that.
24 You're also invited to be as economic as possible in your
25 redactions; that means redact only those portions which you really
1 consider that should not come to the attention of others. That could be
2 matters about individuals, telephone numbers, strategical considerations
3 as far as safety is concerned.
4 What the Chamber after that will do with the remainder of the
5 document, we have not decided that yet, whether we will invite you to
6 give the whole unredacted document to the Chamber or perhaps to the
7 Prosecutor to find out -- on a confidential basis, in order to find out
8 whether there's anything in there which would be exculpatory for the
9 accused, because under those circumstances it might be considered unfair
10 not to inform the Defence about exculpatory elements which are in the
11 remainder of the document. We have not decided that yet.
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: We will consider it, but you at least are already
14 invited at this moment to, with a black marker, to already make the
15 redacted statement, and again the less you take out, the bigger the
16 chances that the Defence will be quite happy with it. So therefore, it
17 might avoid future litigation if you are not overcautious. Just be as
18 cautious as need be.
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then I also would like to instruct you that you
21 should not dispose of the original of the document -- I mean, the
22 original, the full document. So you're supposed not to tear that into
23 pieces or to lose it or to burn it. Just keep it, and the Chamber will
24 then further consider what to do with the document in its entirety. But
25 we gladly accept your offer to start with receiving a redacted statement.
1 Is that clear to you?
2 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then, Mr. Di Fazio, you may --
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Proceed.
5 JUDGE ORIE: -- continue.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you. Thank you, Your Honours.
7 Q. We were at the point where I was asking you to provide a
8 description of the man that you said was the leader of the group of three
9 or the one you perceived to be the leader of the group of three. And you
10 made reference to another -- another matter. Forgetting -- just relying
11 on your memory, just on your memory alone, are you in a position to give
12 the Trial Chamber a physical description of the man that you -- you saw
13 as the leader?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what that was?
16 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I'm sorry.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
18 MR. HARVEY: Before the witness does so, perhaps it would be
19 appropriate to explore with him whether he has, indeed, refreshed his
20 memory by reference to that document prior to coming into the court and
21 whether that has assisted him in recalling the description that he is
22 about to give. He has already been asked this question, has already
23 given the answer to it in point of fact, but the point that interests me
24 and concerns me is whether or not that is a recollection based on 1998 or
25 whether it's based on sometime earlier today having reviewed a document
1 he wrote in 1998.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Mr. Pappas, would you please in your answer specify to what
4 extent your answer is based on your memory of what you still remember to
5 have seen at the time and to what extent your answer is based on recent
6 review of your reports on the matter.
7 THE WITNESS: Your Honour, the only figure that I -- I would say
8 remembered going through that document that I refer is the height because
9 at the time we were standing one close to the other, so I could figure
10 out what was the height. But when it comes from face figures or general
11 figures like hair or whatever, I would recollect that easily without any
12 report. I remember everything.
13 JUDGE ORIE: You would say, therefore, that the length of the
14 person, that's something you --
15 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
16 JUDGE ORIE: -- took from your statement --
17 THE WITNESS: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- from your report?
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Whereas, the other elements --
21 THE WITNESS: The other elements --
22 JUDGE ORIE: -- you still remember?
23 THE WITNESS: I still remember.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
1 Q. Well, don't tell us about the height of the person, but tell us
2 about the other features that you say you remember, the physical features
3 of the person you describe as the leader?
4 A. He was slim, as described, and athletic stature, dark hair, dark
5 complexity, same with the eyes.
6 Q. You mean dark complexion?
7 A. Complexion, yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 A. And same with the eyes. That's it.
10 Q. Thank you. How long were you at the -- were you at the front of
11 the house before leaving that area and moving in?
12 A. It was only a matter of minutes, let's say two, three minutes,
13 not more.
14 Q. And during that time were you able to see this person you've
15 described as the leader of the group during that course of that -- those
16 two or three minutes?
17 A. Yeah, he was the one who ordered us to step off the car, to get
18 off the car, and then he was -- I suppose he was swearing -- I'm not sure
19 because we could not have translation at the time, and he was taking off
20 the stickers from the car.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, during that time that you -- between your
22 arrival at the house and going elsewhere, did anything happen to the
23 interpreter who was with you?
24 A. Yes. After he removed the -- the man in charge, let's say, he
25 removed the stickers from the car, he started beating and kicking the
1 interpreter, calling him names, and making some gestures like he was
2 trying to get the gun from his waistcoat and shoot him.
3 Q. Was he using his fists?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were any members of your party, namely Mr. Kaufmann or Penti or
6 yourself, able to provide any assistance?
7 A. Not at the time, but then we were ordered to get into the house,
8 to the yard of the house, where he continuously was hitting and kicking
9 and punching the interpreter. The same thing with gestures and then
10 Kaufmann was closer than the rest of us were, and he -- he tried to move
11 towards the interpreter to protect him. But then we heard the -- some of
12 the guys around there cocking the guns and we stopped.
13 Q. Thank you. You've said that there was soldiers or men in uniform
14 at this -- at this location.
15 A. Mm-hmm.
16 Q. And you've mentioned being inside the yard of this -- this house.
17 Whilst you're inside the yard of the house, did you have an opportunity
18 to see other people there, apart -- other soldiers, apart from the group
19 of three that had picked you up in -- in the jeep?
20 A. Yeah, there were a lot of people in there. Some of them were
21 very young. I -- I remember that there were three, four persons like 13
22 to 16 years old.
23 Q. And how long would you say that you were in the yard for before
24 leaving it?
25 A. We were about five, ten minutes, maybe.
1 Q. So about three minutes outside, or thereabouts, outside of the
2 house when you first arrived, and about five to ten minutes inside the
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. Is that right?
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. Thank you. And during that period of time, was the one that
8 you've described as the leader of the group of three present?
9 A. Yes, he was.
10 Q. Thank you. Following -- where did you move after you -- after
11 the yard?
12 A. We were ordered to - how do I say? - to follow the stairs to the
13 upper floor of what we saw before of this building, small building. As I
14 told you, there was a storey more, and we were ordered to -- to step
15 off -- or step on the stairs and get on the other floor. It was a small
16 room there with some benches, some wooden benches, and a chair, and we
17 were ordered to be in there.
18 Q. So who was inside this room when you were first taken into the
19 room? Just go through the names, please.
20 A. It was Penti, the Finnish guy; it was Kaufmann, the one from
21 Germany; it was myself -- me; and also the interpreter.
22 Q. And apart from that group, were there any other men in the -- in
23 the room?
24 A. Yeah, they left a person in black uniform to be a guardian of
25 ours in there.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, could I still insist on a short pause
3 between question and answer.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry. Yes. Thank you. I'm grateful to you for
5 reminding me.
6 Q. Were you able to speak with the guard, or did anyone speak to the
7 guard, or did the guard speak to you, to the group?
8 A. We were trying to figure out what is happening, you know, asking
9 interpreter, but he was not in a position to -- to answer or to have any
10 discussion, long discussion. He just said that we were in their eyes
11 like spies or something. And then he translated us that the guard said,
12 We expect the chief to be there, so they will know what to do with us.
13 Q. And did anyone -- did the chief arrive?
14 A. Yes, after some minutes, from the time we had this translation.
15 Q. How long were you in the room before -- before that individual
16 turned up?
17 A. We might be about a quarter before we have this translation from
18 interpreter, and ten minutes afterwards, the man that we expected
20 Q. And I'd like you now, please, to provide us with a description of
21 this -- this man referred to as the chief, his stature, what he looked
22 like, and clothing that he had on.
23 A. Yeah --
24 MR. EMMERSON: No dispute that the man who came into the room was
25 Ramush Haradinaj.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. There we are.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Then there's no need to pursue this matter.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful for that. It will save some time.
5 Q. So what did Mr. Haradinaj do?
6 A. He was trying to find out, like the ones before, who are we, what
7 are we doing there, but it was totally different, the way he was asking
8 information or the way he was behaving.
9 Q. And in what respect? What do you -- you say it was totally
10 different, what exactly do you mean?
11 A. You know, he was polite and he start speaking in English that we
12 all could understand. And everything he done in there, it was quite
13 civilised now.
14 Q. Did he speak to all of your party?
15 A. He spoke to each one of us separately, starting with Penti, and
16 he asked him to -- to sign in a blank paper so he could see the signature
17 from his passport. And then he asked him something about the lake in
18 dispute with Russians in Finland, so he could say possibly if he's really
19 Finnish or what.
20 Q. I see. That's what you concluded? You thought that was the
21 reason --
22 A. Yeah, that's personal conclusions.
23 Q. Right, okay. Yes, please continue. And what other questions did
24 he ask the individuals in the room?
25 A. Yeah, then he talked with the Albanian interpreter, but it was
1 all conversation in Albanian, and even after this incident the
2 interpreter didn't tell us what he said. And after one, two minutes this
3 lasted, the conversation with Albanian interpreter, he asked me who I am,
4 what I do in Greece? I ask him -- I answer him sincerely, and I explain
5 him why we were there, how we found ourselves in Rznic, what are we doing
6 in Kosovo in general, asking him to be more, let's say, cautioned with us
7 because we were in an area under shelling, and we were there to report
8 what's happening, not -- not anything else we know.
9 Q. Thank you. Did he appear to accept that?
10 A. Yeah, yeah, he was quite open and understand.
11 Q. Thank you. And did the interrogation or the questions, I should
12 say, come to an end, and did you then leave the room?
13 A. No. He -- he started talking with Kaufmann, both in English and
14 French, and he was asking same questions like the rest of us, where is he
15 from, what is he doing? That's it.
16 Q. Right. Thank you. What happened after all of that concluded?
17 A. After the, let's say, interrogation finished, you mean?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. He asked us if we have any guns on us, you know, or in the car.
20 We said we don't carry guns. This is a mission without armoured
21 personnel. And then he escort us in the car -- to the car outside of the
22 yard. He -- he made a small inspection of the car himself, opened the
23 doors, checked inside, and after two, three minutes, he said that we can
24 go, and he asked if we would want some escort to show us the way out.
25 Q. During that time that you were back at your vehicle outside of
1 the -- of the premises, did any other soldiers appear?
2 A. Yeah, there were two cars stopped right when we -- when we passed
3 the door of this yard, stepping outside of the house. There was about --
4 there were about eight persons in the cars, these two cars, among them a
5 woman. They saluted. They stepped off the car, they saluted Haradinaj
6 with a fist on the forehead. And then he said something, and they got
7 into the cars and directed to the front line, where the shooting, you
8 know, was coming from.
9 Q. Thank you. And was an escort provided to you?
10 A. Yeah, it was the same three persons that leaded us there with the
11 same jeep. They drove us back to, as I can remember, just a minute, to
12 Kodralija, I think, and then we took our way back ourselves.
13 Q. Did the three men who escorted you, the men who had originally
14 taken you to Rznic, did they -- was it their idea to escort you or were
15 they told to?
16 A. No, no, it was an order from Mr. Haradinaj.
17 Q. Thank you. So you -- you made it to Ljumbarda, you think, and --
18 sorry, Kodralija?
19 A. Kodralija.
20 Q. Yes. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what -- what you did there?
21 A. When we -- when we were escorted there, you mean?
22 Q. Yes, yes, please. What -- who --
23 A. The black jeep, you know, turned around and continued his way,
24 and we took our way back on -- on the same path that we arrived at this
25 area, you know.
1 Q. Did you speak to anyone in that village?
2 A. Yeah, yeah. When we were very close to -- to Kodralija, I don't
3 recall now the name, the name of the place, we find the guy that he was
4 originally in Rznic when I said that five, six men appeared and they gave
5 us a tour, showing us the damage of shelling. There was a guy there that
6 he -- he knew already what happened to us, that we were detained, and he
7 ask us if we want to -- to follow him in a close-by hospital they had.
8 We've been there and we had this small discussion with five, six persons
9 in a small room. It was a friendly discussion, no -- in a quiet place.
10 That's it.
11 Q. What was the discussion about?
12 A. About what happened to us, you know, and they were asking -- they
13 were -- apologise about this incident. And after some minutes, we had
14 the -- started this discussion, another man came in, about 50 years old,
15 and he -- they stood up, all of them.
16 Q. Thank you. Can I just interrupt you there? You've been
17 describing what "they" did.
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Who exactly are "they," if you wouldn't mind telling us?
20 A. The men that I mentioned before, the three men with black
21 uniforms, that they led us to temporarily detainment, you know.
22 Q. Yes. Thank you. And the other man that came in who was about 50
23 years -- 50 years old and they all stood up, who was that person, as far
24 as you could ascertain?
25 A. I didn't know at the time his name. I don't know it since now,
1 but he introduced himself with a nickname Toni, Commander Toni.
2 Q. Did he have KLA uniform and insignia?
3 A. He had --
4 Q. Or at least KLA insignia --
5 A. He had the camouflage uniform, and he had the KLA insignia.
6 Q. And what did he say to you?
7 A. He -- he was told what happened to us in front of us from the
8 rest of the KLA members, and he said he was very sorry that this thing
9 happened but there are extremistic groups inside KLA that were operating
10 in their own manner.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, can -- let's try to keep it --
13 MR. DI FAZIO: As slow --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- a bit slower.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
16 Q. Now, in recent times, were you contacted by your superiors
17 concerning testifying in this case?
18 A. I didn't understand the question you posed here.
19 Q. All right. Have you ever looked at the ICTY web site?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. What I'd like you to do is to explain to the Trial Chamber how it
22 was that you came to do that and the reasons why you did that?
23 A. I -- I received about a year or so paper -- a report from my
24 General Staff headquarters of Hellenic Force, and they were informing
25 that I had been asked to testify for a specific case in ICTY concerning
1 -- I saw three names in that paper, but I didn't know who they were, you
2 know, at the time. So in order to inform myself -- yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
4 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I question the relevance of this line
5 of questioning. I think I know where it's going, and if it is to be
6 going in the direction of anything approaching what would be close to a
7 dock identification, it is something that I think ought to stop right
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey -- Mr. Di Fazio, you're now supposed to
10 answer on the basis of what is just a supposition and assumption.
11 Mr. Guy-Smith.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. If we might have this conversation, I know
13 that the witness does speak English. If we might have this conversation
14 in the absence of the witness because I think there are a number of
15 issues that might arise.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Pappas, there are some procedural issues at this
17 moment which the parties would like to discuss without bothering you with
18 it, and therefore I'm asked to invite you to leave the courtroom for a
19 second so that we can speak about it without it having any influence on
21 [The witness stands down]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio -- yes, Mr. Guy-Smith, it was just your
23 suggestion to have the witness leave the courtroom.
24 Mr. Di Fazio, perhaps you first tell Mr. Harvey whether you are
25 slowly getting at a dock identification or not, or ...
1 MR. DI FAZIO: No, not in the sense of classic dock
2 identification from these particular accused in this dock. I think
3 Your Honours know that -- perhaps you don't. But the evidence I intend
4 adduce is this: I expect the witness will say that he looked at the --
5 as a result of being told of his intended testimony, he looked at the
6 ICTY web site and looked up the details of this particular case and saw
7 photographs of the accused in this case, printed off the pages, and
8 recognised the other two men whom he has spoken about in his evidence as
9 being Mr. Balaj and Mr. Brahimaj, and of course Mr. Haradinaj, but that's
10 not an issue of course. And he says that having seen those photographs
11 he recognised Mr. Balaj as the man he has referred to as the leader of
12 the group and Mr. Brahimaj as another man who was standing in the yard at
13 the time that he was taken into the yard. And that's the evidence that
14 we intend to adduce.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
16 MR. HARVEY: Oh, my prophetic soul. That's what I thought we
17 were going. I have a number of problems with this. First of all, as I
18 said, this is as close to a dock identification this makes really no
19 difference --
20 JUDGE ORIE: The dock was just on television.
21 MR. HARVEY: Exactly.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. HARVEY: And it is therefore, in my submission, worthless as
24 evidence. The second issue that I have, and this puts me in the rather
25 awkward position of testifying, is that at early stages in this case, my
1 client's photograph didn't even appear on the web. There were two
2 photographs of Mr. Balaj, one alongside Mr. Balaj's name and one
3 alongside Mr. Brahimaj's name. I have no means of knowing what the state
4 of the web site was at the time that this witness viewed it and whether,
5 indeed, it was Mr. Brahimaj's face that was even on the web site at that
6 time. I don't think any of us can ever know that with certainty.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from the web master, perhaps.
8 MR. HARVEY: Apart from the web master. I -- Mr. Emmerson thinks
9 that I may be taking a bad point here and that perhaps my client's
10 photograph was available to him at the time --
11 MR. EMMERSON: I wasn't implying that at all. I think that the
12 witness in one of his witness statements when he deals with this claims
13 that he still has the photographs that he printed off the internet so if
14 it needs to be investigated, then it could be.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, we have --
16 MR. HARVEY: It's pretty much a subsidiary point, though, and I
17 stay with the first one primarily.
18 MR. EMMERSON: It's -- if it's any assistance to Your Honours,
19 my, as Your Honour knows, my client's case is that identification is not
20 in dispute, but my client's case is that the identification of
21 Mr. Brahimaj is in error.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. HARVEY: Would it surprise you to hear that that's my case as
24 well, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I can imagine it is.
1 One second, please.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- I might need to be heard on this, too.
5 JUDGE ORIE: You know that usually if you -- if you get up on
6 your feet, then usually I allow you to speak.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Indeed so. Thank you so much.
8 It is our case that the identification of my client at the time
9 and place is not inaccurate but the characterisation may well be.
10 Meaning that he was there, but the activities attributed to the
11 individual who was the leader of the group are not him.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So it, mainly as far as identification is
13 concerned of Mr. Brahimaj rather than anything else.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: That is correct and I will be revisiting the
15 issue of length of a person once again.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is aware that this has some similarity
19 with a dock identification; there are differences, however, as well. The
20 witness is, I take it at least, not asked, Mr. Di Fazio, to say do you
21 happen to see someone here in the courtroom who was there at the time,
22 but is rather asked about at what moment he has become aware that what he
23 saw on -- and I do not know to what extent he had identified in full
24 detail what the case was about, et cetera. Therefore, the Chamber will
25 consider the evidence to be given with great care and very cautiously.
1 Of course, the evidence also may give an opportunity to -- for further
2 test of the reliability. And in view of the issue you raised, Mr.
3 Harvey, whether at all at that time there were any photographs, which of
4 course would then be a reliability issue. Certainly the Chamber would
5 like the parties to deal with it, whether Mr. Di Fazio already asked the
6 witness whether he still has kept these photographs and whether you do it
7 in cross-examination is open. If neither of you will do it, the Chamber
8 will do it.
9 Mr. Emmerson.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Obviously, it's not my direct concern on this, but
11 since it raises issues of identification and dock identification, Your
12 Honours will recall that the stated position of the Prosecution in these
13 proceedings is that they will not seek dock identification, and the only
14 caveat to that that's ever been entered is that they may reserve the
15 right to argue that where the identification is not of someone seen on a
16 single occasion but of someone known well over time, they may reserve the
17 right to make a further argument in relation to it.
18 And I simply make the observation that the witness's statement in
19 relation to Mr. Brahimaj is unable to ascribe any role to him or to
20 indicate where it was he said that he was involved. It's a momentary
21 sighting, according to the statement.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Mr. Harvey, the concerns you expressed are well understood and
24 have not led to a ruling that Mr. Di Fazio could not put questions in
25 relation to what the witness saw on the internet. Apart from that, it's
1 perhaps also good for us to know whether he had other sources which,
2 whatever the witness will testify about it, the Chamber will have to
3 consider as a potential source of further information.
4 Mr. Di Fazio, we'll invite the witness to come into the courtroom
5 again, and you then may continue. And I take it that you have carefully
6 listened also to the matters raised.
7 [The witness takes the stand]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for your patience, Mr. Pappas.
9 Mr. Di Fazio will continue his examination.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
11 Q. We got to the point where you said that you looked at the ICTY
12 web site. Just explain once again to the Trial Chamber why it was that
13 you looked at it.
14 A. I saw an official paper, you know, the case IT-0 -- something,
15 which tells me nothing and of course some names on it, which again they
16 were not ring a bell, you know. So I wondered why -- why should I
17 testify for a case of these persons if I don't know them. And I tried
18 to -- to have some information about them, about the case.
19 Q. And --
20 A. That's why I entered the web site of ICTY.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you put a time on this? Do you recall when it
22 was that you accessed this web site?
23 A. It might be late of April, early of May --
24 Q. When?
25 A. -- 2006.
1 Q. Was that the first time you had accessed the ICTY web site?
2 A. Yeah, first time.
3 Q. Did you access it subsequently?
4 A. No, just that time.
5 Q. Having accessed the ICT web site, what did you see?
6 A. At the beginning, I was a little bit confused. I didn't know
7 what to search, you know, and I went to this engine -- search engine you
8 have, I put the number of case, and then I read the allegations, I would
9 say. I saw that -- that paragraph concerning the mass grave that was
10 found in Lake Radonjic, and I thought to myself: That's the case. And
11 then I saw pictures, you know, of the accused.
12 Q. And -- thank you. Thank you. And did you print anything off
13 from the web site?
14 A. Yeah, I print -- I printed three pieces concerning each one of --
15 of these pieces concerning each one of the accused, it was a picture of
16 them, and the general allegations they were facing.
17 Q. Did you keep the pictures of the three accused?
18 A. Yeah, I kept it.
19 Q. Did you bring them here?
20 A. Yes, it was in my papers that I have gathered together.
21 Q. And when was that? When did you bring them here, here to The
22 Hague, I mean?
23 A. On the 2nd of May, when I arrived.
24 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'd like you to look at -- sorry, one more
25 question. And did you provide those pictures to the Prosecution?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. I'd like you to look at this --
3 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Harvey.
5 MR. HARVEY: I do find this quite extraordinary. Apparently,
6 these pictures have been provided to the Prosecution --
7 JUDGE ORIE: And not disclosed?
8 MR. HARVEY: -- and once again not to the Defence. Unless I have
9 missed something, and if I have, I will certainly apologise.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 MR. HARVEY: But I look around me at my fellow counsel, and I see
12 also shaking heads and disbelief.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 Mr. Di Fazio is -- seems to disagree and will explain why.
15 Mr. Di Fazio.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: My firm understanding is that the statement, the
17 full statement, of the witness has been disclosed with all of the
18 annexes --
19 JUDGE ORIE: 2006, 2007 --
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Yeah, the full -- the full, and -- and the 92 ter.
21 Of course it was disclosed, unless something has gone horribly wrong.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I must say that --
23 MR. DI FAZIO: And it's referred to in the body of the statement
24 as well.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Um, well, there is --
1 MR. DI FAZIO: It's extraordinary --
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- some confusion about annexes to the 2007
3 statement. Now, the issue is -- let me just have a look.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour --
5 JUDGE ORIE: The witness said on the -- "the 2nd of May, when I
7 Now, it happens that both in 2006 and 2007, the interviews were
8 in May.
9 Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. I've just double-checked. I've just
11 conferred with my colleague. They were supplied.
12 JUDGE ORIE: They were supplied.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: They were supplied to me. I have them. I don't
14 know whether or not Mr. Harvey has them.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
17 MR. DI FAZIO: -- it was my firm, clear understanding that they
18 had been disclosed. Of course, they were absolutely crucial. How could
19 I have overlooked it? If they haven't, then it's the result of some
20 completely unforeseen error.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I remember from this over this weekend that --
22 first of all, I earlier expressed -- is it in -- is it attached to the
23 2007 statement or the 2006 statement?
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. And I've got a letter here dated -- sorry,
25 an e-mail dated 10th of May, 2007, sent at 8.35 p.m.
1 "Dear Defence counsel and Mr. Zahar, witnesses for next week and
2 so on," and lists for Mr. Pappas the various documents -- various
3 exhibits, including two-page internet extract showing the faces of the
4 three accused with an ERN -- ERN number.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
6 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated].
7 JUDGE ORIE: No, not without a microphone. That's impossible.
8 Now it's -- it's on.
9 MR. EMMERSON: That's it. No, just to say my impression was that
10 I had not received them either, but they have been found in our system
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 Mr. Harvey.
14 MR. HARVEY: With a slightly red face, I confess that I have
15 finally found mine as well. It is hard to keep track of these, but thank
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. HARVEY: I do apologise for --
19 MR. DI FAZIO: No apology needed at all. It's -- if they hadn't
20 been sent, it would have been a matter of grave concern to everyone, but
21 I was pretty confident that they had been sent.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. DI FAZIO: All right.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
25 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you.
1 Q. I'd like you, please, to look at the Exhibit 1333, which I think
2 is a two-page document. Now, is that -- is that the -- one of the pages
3 that you printed off?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. And it had all the personal details of these men at the time you
6 read it?
7 A. What you see here, that's the only thing I saw.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: And can the witness be shown the next page?
10 THE WITNESS: Yes.
11 MR. DI FAZIO:
12 Q. And are these the two pages that you provided to the Prosecution
13 when you recently arrived at The Hague?
14 A. Yes, exactly.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, these are not attachments, although
17 still confusing --
18 MR. DI FAZIO: They --
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- attachment A, B, and C are attached to the 2007
20 statement, although they originate from the 2006 and were earlier
21 attached to that one. But now I do understand that this D and what we
22 have now E, I think, are separate documents.
23 Madam Registrar, that would be two pages and together would that
24 be ...
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P275,
1 marked for identification.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection at this moment? It just shows what
3 the witness at that time saw, and that's now on the record.
4 MR. EMMERSON: I don't object.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: With what the Chamber's just said, there's no
8 MR. HARVEY: With that caveat, absolutely not.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Then -- then P275 is admitted into evidence.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
13 Could we go back to the beginning -- to the first of these two
14 pages, please? And could we have them -- yes, thanks, just perhaps a bit
15 more, if we can. Thanks. All right.
16 Q. Now, the -- the gentleman depicted in the top photograph, it's --
17 that's not in dispute, we know that's Mr. Haradinaj. And the gentleman
18 depicted in the photograph at the bottom, in the context of what you saw
19 and observed on the 11th of August, 1998, who is that individual?
20 A. That was the man --
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think he's --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson --
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think Mr. Di Fazio is -- is -- is going at it
24 in --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I think as a matter of fact, Mr. Di Fazio,
1 you're now heading for a dock identification, the dock being on the
2 screen. You are -- you can ask the witness when he saw these pictures,
3 what -- what came into his mind at that moment?
4 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll paraphrase Your Honour's -- Your Honour's
5 questions exactly.
6 Q. When you looked at the -- the web site and you saw the
7 photographs, and in particular the photographs of this individual at the
8 bottom, what came into your mind?
9 A. I instantly recognised the man who hit the interpreter, and he
10 was the man, he was leading the team of three.
11 Q. Who led you from --
12 A. That led us --
13 Q. -- Rznic to Glodjane?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Thank you.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: And could we now turn to the second page?
17 Q. Same question: When you opened the ICT web site and saw that
18 particular photograph, what came into your mind?
19 A. He looked familiar because I saw him in the yard of this house,
20 but he didn't participate to any beating or detention of our team.
21 Q. You had no -- no dealings with this man?
22 A. No, no.
23 Q. Other than his presence in the yard?
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, have they been -- that's
2 been tendered. Thank you.
3 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Pappas.
4 JUDGE ORIE: It's already admitted.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, thank you. If Your Honours please, I wonder
6 when you propose to take the break --
7 JUDGE ORIE: As a matter of fact -- yes?
8 MR. DI FAZIO: I'd like to move on to the issue of some documents
9 and it's -- I really need an opportunity to speak to the Defence about
10 this, and I wonder if now would be an appropriate moment to --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it certainly would be an appropriate moment.
12 We have a break until five minutes past 6.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 5.41 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 6.07 p.m.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm grateful to Your Honours for
17 taking the break at that time. It's hopefully helped us to deal with the
18 next part of the evidence.
19 Q. Mr. Pappas, in your 92 ter statement, you have referred to a
20 visit to -- you made to the canal area or the Lake Radonjic area, I
21 should say. I'd just like to show you very briefly, very, very briefly a
22 couple of video-clips and a photo and ask you to tell us -- provide us
23 with some comments?
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Now, can the witness be shown this excerpt from
1 Q. And just look at the screen, please --
2 JUDGE ORIE: The whole is already in evidence?
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: The whole of it is?
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Just an excerpt.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. DI FAZIO:
8 Q. Now, follow it.
9 [Videotape played]
10 MR. DI FAZIO:
11 Q. Just pausing there momentarily, do you recognise -- it's
12 difficult to see, I know, but do you recognise that location?
13 A. Yes, it's the location we've been 18th of September or something.
14 Q. Is that the -- a canal leading into Lake Radonjic?
15 A. It's the concrete canal, yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Did you notice any features on the walls, any marks
17 on the walls during your trip to the canal, the sides of the walls that
18 you can see there depicted in the video excerpt?
19 A. Yes, we saw a lot of marks on the wall. We've been told that
20 it's bullet marks. I'm not an expert to say, but I saw a lot of them.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Just continue, please.
23 [Videotape played]
24 MR. DI FAZIO:
25 Q. Did you see marks similar to those that you can see on that
1 particular part of the excerpt?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And who informed you that they were bullet-holes?
4 A. With us, with the Team Pec I at that day that we visited the
5 site, it was the head of -- I don't know how to say that, head of
6 prosecutors, head of judges --
7 Q. [Indiscernible]?
8 A. -- this district, yes. It was -- his name was Cvejic, I think.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 A. He was giving us explanations there what they find and where.
11 Q. Thank you. And he was a Serbian?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. A Serbian court official; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please -- thank you.
17 Your Honours, I think that's already in evidence, so there's no problem
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, it's always good to know exactly
20 what has been shown to the witness.
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It's approximately from - I didn't notice
23 immediately - but from 8 minutes 10 seconds up until 8 minutes and 50
25 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm grateful to Your Honour for noting that.
1 Q. Witness, just one more question. The bullet-holes that you --
2 that you -- I think you can see in the excerpt that you have just been --
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Mr. Di Fazio, those have yet to be
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Gregor Guy-Smith is quite right, and I'm
6 grateful to him.
7 Q. These holes that you were told were bullet -- bullet-holes that
8 you saw, were they on both sides of the wall of the canal; in other
9 words, some inside or -- and on the outside?
10 A. It was only at the outside part of that wall, and when it comes
11 to the other wall, the opposite, which these two walls are limit the
12 canal, there were bullets on the other side, too. But not both sides of
13 the same wall.
14 Q. Okay. But I -- what I'd like --
15 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. It's one thing for a witness to be
16 invited to give evidence of a positive, but if the witness is going to be
17 invited to -- or to give evidence of a negative, we're going to need to
18 establish that he inspected the entire length of both sets of walls,
19 because the testimony he's given is not consistent with the photographic
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Sorry, would Your Honour just give me a moment?
23 I'm only trying to adduce evidence of what the witness -- whether the
24 witness saw these sorts of holes on --
25 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Di Fazio, the witness said -- and that's
1 part of his evidence and I take it that Mr. Emmerson would very much like
2 this to be explored properly, whether or not it has not been specifically
3 asked about it, I think. Well, yes, to some extent he was. He said:
4 "But not on both sides of the same wall," which - and that's from what I
5 understand from Mr. Emmerson - means that he has looked as carefully to
6 the one side of the wall as to the other side, in order to be able to
7 draw such a conclusion that there were no bullet-holes at the other side
8 of the wall or even at the other sides of the two walls.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Yes, well, I'm -- I won't ask any
10 further questions about that. I'd like to -- to show the witness another
11 excerpt, if I may.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, but I'm -- what I'm asking for is for
14 the foundation to be laid for the assertion that there are bullet-holes
15 on one side only of each of the walls, if that is the testimony.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You've invited Mr. Di Fazio to do that. If no
17 foundation has been laid, then there's just the assertion, isn't it?
19 Mr. Di Fazio, of course that limits the relevance and the
20 probative value of the evidence. I take it that you're aware of that?
21 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Would Your Honours just give me a moment to
22 confer with my colleague, please?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
24 [Prosecution counsel confer]
25 MR. DI FAZIO:
1 Q. Did you inspect the inside of the canal?
2 A. Only from the one side that we approached the canal, not from the
3 other side.
4 Q. Thank you. And where were you when you did that, can you recall?
5 What part of the canal?
6 A. That could be from the west side of the canal where the bodies
7 were found, the main area the bodies were found.
8 Q. When you say the area where -- "the west side of the canal ...
9 the area where the body -- the bodies were found," you -- you didn't
10 actually see any bodies, of course?
11 A. No.
12 Q. No. So you rely there on what you were told by the Serbian
13 officials; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. And when you conducted that inspection, as you say,
16 from the west side of the canal, did you see holes that were said to you
17 to be bullet-holes on the inside of the canal?
18 A. No, not at this part of the canal.
19 Q. Did you conduct or did you inspect other parts of the canal?
20 A. No, no.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you just look at this particular excerpt?
22 [Videotape played]
23 MR. DI FAZIO:
24 Q. Firstly, do you recognise that particular part -- that
25 particular -- what you see on the screen?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And what is it?
3 A. That's another set of marks on the wall which was at the opposite
4 side of the canal, as we were looking at the time that I visit there.
5 We been -- said, again, that there were bullet marks.
6 Q. Do -- you may not know, but did you actually see those particular
7 bullet-holes, or is your testimony that you saw bullet-holes like that on
8 the inside of the canal?
9 A. No.
10 Q. I've got to be clear so that we all know. Are you saying that
11 you can't remember if you saw these -- this specific part of the canal
12 with these specific bullet-holes?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Right --
15 A. I stepped on that concrete wall to see down there, and I don't
16 recall to see any marks from the inside of that wall. But it was only at
17 this specific place. I didn't examine other places around.
18 Q. Right. Was it that place that you can see in the video-clip that
19 you saw these holes?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 JUDGE ORIE: For the record, it's at 7 minutes, 28 seconds,
23 that's where the picture appears.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
2 And finally can the -- on this topic, can the witness be shown
3 Exhibit P45.
4 Q. Witness, have a look at that particular photograph carefully. Do
5 you recognise it or do you know what that depicts?
6 A. Yes. I might say I recognise the place because it was just
7 before the concrete canal finishes, you know, and there was a natural
8 creek from that place on. So I can say that I recognise the place, yes.
9 Q. Thank you. I'd just like you, if you would, please, to use that
10 red marking device on the side of the computer. Could you show,
11 indicate, on that the -- any area that is visible on that photograph that
12 you went to on the day that you went to the lake area?
13 A. We were just visiting that place here, where we show the
14 bullet-proof -- or the bullet marks, or what it's supposed to be bullet
15 marks. And --
16 Q. Thank you. Did you go to any other places along that canal and
17 natural creek or gully --
18 A. We.
19 Q. -- that you can see depicted?
20 A. We've been to a farm, but I'm not sure if that's the one on the
21 top. We were heading east, south-east from direction of this concrete
22 wall, and I think that's the one because I remember it was about 1, 1 and
23 a half kilometre.
24 Q. Okay. But as far as the canal area is concerned, is that the
25 only area of the canal that you visited, that you have shown with a
2 A. At that day, yes.
3 Q. Thank you. And could you perhaps just write your initials on the
4 circle showing the point at which you viewed the canal, perhaps AP?
5 A. Where I viewed the canal, you mean?
6 Q. Yes, just put the initials next to that so we know what that
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. And so the other circle that is unmarked -- sorry,
10 that has no initials, that's the -- the place that you think is the farm
11 that you also visited on the same day?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I tender that photograph.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number ...?
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number P276,
17 marked for identification.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection?
19 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated].
20 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.
21 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Mr. Usher, I have no further need to ...
23 Q. During the course of your duties, did you -- did your team cause
24 or prepare reports from time to time?
25 A. If our team preparing reports --
1 Q. Yes, Team Pec I.
2 A. We are supposed to give report every day.
3 Q. And to whom?
4 A. We had a kind of hierarchy that -- if you take it from the
5 bottom, we were all teams, Pec I, II, some teams from Mitrovica, some
6 other from Pristina, subordinated to a coordination centre.
7 Q. Right. Where was the coordination centre located?
8 A. In Pristina.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. Can you tell the Trial Chamber the -- on a
10 daily basis how the report-making was conducted and what would occur?
11 A. We were having some scheduled meetings, but this was coming --
12 this was happening when it comes to Serb authorities because they were
13 known, they had telephone numbers, you know, to contact. We had regular
14 meetings and we had interviews. We were asking anything we wanted,
15 keeping notes. And then we had also patrols, and every day we were
16 creating a summary of what we'd done every day and till 3.00 we are
17 supposed to send our report to CC.
18 Q. Right. When you say till 3.00, do you mean you had to send your
19 report at some point prior to 3.00 p.m.?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Okay. And --
22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You used an abbreviation, you sent the reports to
24 THE WITNESS: That's --
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You said to the coordination centre?
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
4 Q. And in your particular team, Team Pec I, who wrote the reports or
5 did that vary from time to time?
6 A. For -- on behalf of two teams, Pec I and II, most of the times
7 German Kaufmann would do that.
8 Q. Did you ever participate in the report writing or help by
9 providing information to him?
10 A. Yes. I participate a lot of times, but the final draft was
11 issued by him.
12 Q. Thank you. Once the report had been prepared, what was the next
14 A. We have -- we had an -- our private network to send the reports
15 by computer, and then coordination centre was gathering all reports of
16 the day from all teams in Kosovo and creating -- and they created a
17 summary, a brief report, consisting of main items from each team. And
18 they were sending it to RC Belgrade, which is regional centre.
19 Q. And are you aware if other teams, such as your own, were
20 conducting the same exercise throughout Kosovo?
21 A. They were conducting the same exercise, you mean --
22 Q. Conducting -- other teams, like yours, doing the same thing --
23 A. Yeah, yeah, of course.
24 Q. -- throughout Kosovo? All right. Preparing a daily report --
25 A. Every day, yes.
1 Q. -- sending it to the coordination centre?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And from there, the coordination centre sent it to the regional
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. Did you ever have an opportunity to see reports that the
7 coordination centre was forwarding on to the regional centre?
8 A. Only unofficially, you know, when I was visiting CC Pristina and
9 some of our colleagues were writing down, the operations officer were --
10 was writing down a report --
11 Q. Thank you.
12 A. -- and if I was close to him, yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I want to deal with some
15 specific documents now, and it's necessary to do that in -- in private
16 session, if Your Honours please.
17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll then turn into private session.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 4162-4178 redacted. Private session
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours we're back in open session.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 May I invite you, Mr. Pappas, that as soon as you've done it, to
10 give it immediately to the Victims and Witnesses Section, who will then,
11 because you're supposed not to meet with the Prosecution anymore, will
12 then pass it to the registry so that the registry will take care that it
13 will be translated.
14 Final question: How many pages is the document, approximately?
15 THE WITNESS: If I remember, it's about four or five pages tops.
16 I'm not sure, but I think it's four.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And the part that will remain would be
18 approximately --
19 THE WITNESS: Would be the same --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you determine --
21 THE WITNESS: -- except some phrases or some small part.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 We'll adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past 2.00, same courtroom.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day of
1 May, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.