1 Wednesday, 23 May 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.07 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Is the Defence ready to
10 continue the cross-examination of Mr. Crosland?
11 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, yes. May I indicate that Your Honours
12 should have before you an amended version of the index to binder 1, which
13 contains those exhibits which have so far been marked for identification
14 with either a P or a D number. What I propose to do, subject to any
15 expression of view from the Trial Chamber, is to continue the
16 cross-examination in the same format as before; in other words, to
17 cross-examine the witness by reference to tab number only because that is
18 the way that the first half of the cross-examination was conducted; but
19 then at the end of his evidence to have each of the other documents marked
20 for identification and this index will then be updated and the further
21 version provided to the Trial Chamber. So what this is in effect a work
22 in progress so Your Honours know what we're looking at any point in time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'm aware of that. At the same time, if it
24 would ever come to a situation where others would have to review the
25 transcripts of these hearings, then it might be good that they do not find
1 tab numbers and MFI numbers separated. Therefore, if you refer to any
2 document that has already received an MFI number, you're invited to --
3 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- mention that immediately; and if not, to have them
5 linked as quickly as possible so I'll then invite Madam Registrar to
6 assign a D MFI number immediately so that we find that on the record
7 concentrated in one spot.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I have no difficulty at all with that, simply
9 to observe that for whatever reason that's not the way I dealt with the
10 first half of the cross-examination so there will be a disconcurrence on
11 the transcript.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think as a matter of fact let's continue with
13 the system which has some flaws but would be a better idea and, therefore,
14 rather to improve than to stick to the old system.
15 Then Madam Usher, would you please escort Mr. Crosland into the
17 May I take it that the parties would agree that reminding
18 Mr. Crosland that he is still bound by the solemn declaration, although
19 given some time ago, would at this moment do rather than to invite him to
20 make that solemn declaration again.
21 MR. EMMERSON: Absolutely. As far as timing is concerned, I've
22 had an opportunity to discuss this issue with Mr. Guy-Smith. May we
23 simply give Your Honours the collective assurance that our
24 cross-examinations taken together will conclude today, with Mr. Harvey
25 cross-examining first thing in the morning for a relatively a brief period
1 when he returns.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then we could continue with the next witness
3 tomorrow after Mr. Harvey is cross-examine is completed.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: The only issue, of course, is that if you would
6 finish earlier today, then we might have to wait for Mr. Harvey before
7 re-examination would start, which is, of course, not a preferred
9 Mr. Re, you understand that I would rather not invite you to start
10 any re-examination before we have heard the cross-examination -- the
11 testimony and cross-examination by Mr. Harvey.
12 MR. RE: I wouldn't be in a position to re-examine before
13 Mr. Harvey in reality, because he may cross over material which I would
14 have no re-re-examine on.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. The Chamber is concerned about any loss of
16 time, and since we have still other witnesses for the remainder of the
17 week --
18 MR. EMMERSON: I think, if I may say so, it is unlikely that we
19 will finish very substantially before --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
21 MR. EMMERSON: -- the end of the day. I may prove to be wrong on
22 that, but I think it's unlikely.
23 [The witness entered court]
24 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Mr. Crosland.
25 THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crosland, on the 19th of April, you gave your
2 solemn declaration that you would speak the truth, the whole truth, and
3 nothing but the truth. That solemn declaration still binds you in the
4 testimony you are about to give. The expectation is that it will take
5 today and a part of tomorrow's hearing for your testimony.
6 Mr. Emmerson will now continue to cross-examine you.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 WITNESS: JOHN CROSLOND [Resumed]
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson: [Continued]
10 Q. Good morning, Colonel Crosland. We're all grateful to you for
11 making the time to come back.
12 A. Thank you, sir.
13 Q. May I remind you of something I was reminded of myself this
14 morning, which the need for us both to speak slowly and leave a clear
15 pause between question and answer, both for translation and for
16 transcription purposes.
17 MR. EMMERSON: Could the witness please be provided with the green
18 and the blue binders.
19 Q. I think, as before, Colonel Crosland, you can for the time being
20 put the blue binder to the one side and concentrate, if you will, with me
21 on the green binder. And I had embarked at the end of the last occasion
22 when you were here on going through a number of documents with you
23 chronologically to look at Serbian troop deployments and military
24 engagements in the area with which this indictment is concerned.
25 We had reached tab 14 in the binder when we adjourned, and you
1 will remember there was some discussion in response to an observation from
2 Judge Orie about the implications of the word "axis" in a particular
3 document. I'll allow you in just a moment to refresh your memory. So
4 behind tab 14, we find a 16th of May order regarding the redeployment of
5 the 125th Motorised Brigade, which is based in Peje.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.
8 JUDGE ORIE: In line with what I said earlier, we'll invite Madam
9 Registrar to assign a number to tab 14.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D70.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
13 MR. EMMERSON:
14 Q. So it is, as I say, a memorandum signed by Colonel Zivanovic,
15 regarding a deployment of the 125th Brigade, which was then, I think,
16 you've confirmed, based in Pec. Is that right?
17 A. As far as I understand, that's correct.
18 Q. So if we turn to page 2, which is where we had concentrated our
19 attention on the last occasion, it refers in the first two paragraphs to
20 the proposed deployment of BG-2, that is combat group 2, and BG-3, that is
21 combat group 3, of the 125th. Pausing for a moment - and we discussed
22 this briefly on the last occasion, but just to re-orientate ourselves -
23 the 125th was based in Pec and the 549th under Colonel Delic was based in
24 Prizren. Is that right?
25 A. That was correct at the time, sir, yes.
1 Q. So looking again at the first entry, combat group 2, and bearing
2 in mind Judge Orie's observations on the language, one can see, if I just
3 read it briefly into the record, that "combat group 2 is instructed to be
4 at the ready in the current redeployment sector for operations along the
5 following axes," and then two axes are set out. The first is an axis
6 beginning at the barracks; and assuming that the barracks were in the
7 location of the deployment of the 125th, that would presumably mean Pec.
8 Would you agree?
9 A. That is what it appears to mean, Mr. Emmerson, yes.
10 Q. So from the barracks to Smonica and from Smonica to Ponosevac and
11 from Ponosevac to Gornja Morina, all of which would be on the west side of
12 the road; correct?
13 A. That appears to be correct, yes.
14 Q. So on the face of it, whether this order was carried into effect
15 or not, this is an order for combat group 2 to be deployed in a manoeuvre
16 moving southwards from Pec as far as Gornja Morina?
17 A. That is correct, sir, yes.
18 Q. And then the second axis there referred to is from the barracks,
19 again, to Erecka Suka, and immediately after that what appears to be a
20 third axis of deployment from the barracks to Zrze and the barracks to
21 Radonjic Lake. Do you see that?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 Q. So on the face of it, this is a series of radiating deployments,
24 beginning at Pec, heading southwards on both sides of the main road. Is
25 that correct?
1 A. That appears to be what they'd been ordered to do so, yes.
2 Q. With a target or a series of targets which include both Erecka
3 Suka and Radonjic Lake?
4 A. Yeah.
5 Q. And the task is there described in language which, would you
6 agree, suggests that they are going to be meeting and cooperating with MUP
7 forces deployed in those areas, because it reads tasks: "In cooperated
8 action with neighbouring forces of the Republic of Serbia MUP break up
9 Siptar sabotage and terrorist groups and secure supply routes for VJ
11 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
12 Q. Now, if carried into effect, that would be a fairly comprehensive
13 sweep downwards by the 125th to clear both sides of the main road. Is
14 that right?
15 A. That, on the surface, appears, yes.
16 Q. Moving down towards the area which was under the responsibility of
17 the 549th?
18 A. Correct.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, before you continue, I noticed that
20 you're talking about a memo; whereas, in the draft translation we find
21 under tab 14, it is said it is an order; and I then was informed by Madam
22 Registrar that the uploaded document, so I take it that it's 65 ter 424,
23 is only in the original language and that no translation or even a draft
24 translation has been attached.
25 Since I would like to know for certain that we are talking about
1 documents, the documents we find in our binder, are the same as the ones
2 in the electronic court system, I wonder what to do. It's also difficult,
3 I take it, for Madam Registrar -- I don't know whether it -- the original
4 is now assigned the D70 number. Yes. Perhaps you could have a look at
5 that -- yes, Mr. Re.
6 MR. RE: The case manager, Mr. Smith, has located a translation
7 that we have. I hope that it has been disclosed to the Defence.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, I would like to know, if it's not
9 uploaded in the system, there always is a risk of having several
10 translations of the same document, and I just want to verify that we are
11 all talking about the same original and about the same translation. If
12 you could please work on that, I would not --
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- I do not attempt to stop you at this moment, but
15 at least this will be settled soon.
16 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour will appreciate the way in which these
17 translations come into our possession. We requested the Prosecution to
18 provide us with English translations of the documents that had been
19 supplied by a number of Serbian military officials, including Colonel
20 Delic, and we were supplied with draft translations. I am not aware of
21 having been supplied with a final translation of this document. Had there
22 been one, we would have put it into the system.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. EMMERSON: We can certainly clarify the position and ensure
25 that the accurate translation is the one that is linked to the original
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I'll resolve that with that and any other document
4 in which the situation arises during the course of today.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
6 MR. EMMERSON: But in so far as the word "memo" is concerned, that
7 is my mistake because this translation clearly uses the order "order."
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
9 MR. EMMERSON:
10 Q. Just coming back, if I may, to the implications of that. Were
11 you, yourself, aware, Colonel Crosland, of a deployment of Serb forces
12 southwards from Pec, let us say, at any point in the second half of May?
13 A. Mr. Emmerson, no, we were obviously not aware. We would not be
14 told anything that the VJ or the MUP would be doing. My observations were
15 as we saw and identified or possibly did not identify units in positions
16 that were visible from the road, because, as I have said before, to drive
17 off the road in certain areas was not a wise move; therefore, our
18 visibility of what the VJ or the MUP were doing fairly close to the road
19 was limited in certain occasions.
20 Q. Yes. I think it may be that we're talking slightly at
21 cross-purposes because towards the end of May do you recall there having
22 been an offensive moving from Pec?
23 A. I think so. I made a statement at some stage that, yes, the
24 temper of operations increased during that period, yes.
25 Q. We will come to some of the documents in a little more detail
1 later on today, and just to complete the picture with this document.
2 BG-3, that is combat group 3, is then - and I'll just read the language
3 into the record first - "is to be ready in the current redeployment sector
4 for operations along the following axes: Pec to Decani to Rastavica to
5 Junik to Ponosevac village; Pec to Zahac to Klina to Iglarevo village; and
6 Pec to Rausic village, Barane village, and Celopek village."
7 There the task is described as follows: "In cooperated action
8 with MUP forces, break up DTG along the axes of engagement and cooperate
9 with BG-2 to unblock Ponosevac village and the Morina border post and
10 secure the Pec to Decani route and the Pec to Klina route."
11 Taken together, and leaving aside the question of implementation,
12 this appears to have been a plan then, looking at these two combat groups
13 together, to mount a pretty substantial offensive from Pec, both in an
14 easterly and in a southerly direction and, indeed, in a westerly
15 direction. Is that right?
16 A. That appears to be the correct -- the drift of the order, yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Could you turn, please, to page 5 in this document and
18 to paragraph 17. Now, you may remember that I asked you some questions on
19 the last occasion about the likelihood that a concentration of Serb
20 artillery, for example, in an elevated position around the lake, would be
21 guarded by ground troops operating on the ground as a sort of cordon
22 sanitaire, and we had some discussion about that being a normal,
23 appropriate military tactic in the British army and in other European
25 I just wanted to ask you about this. Paragraph 17 reads in the
1 context of this redeployment by the 125th: "Extend advance security and
2 outguard sentinels in the redeployment sector of the units and at
3 positions and use them to control those sectors that are difficult to
4 observe, or from where sniper ... fire and automatic rifle fire can be
5 opened at units or MTS. Within the scope of b/r, determine the axes of
6 movement for personnel and MTS where personnel will be protected from
7 surprise DTG operations from a distance."
8 Now, pausing there for a moment, a couple of abbreviations could
9 you help us with. Do you know what MTS indicates?
10 A. I thought you might be asking that. To be honest, no.
11 Q. Very well. And b/r?
12 A. It might be, Your Honours, brigade. I don't know.
13 Q. Very well. But in broad terms, is that paragraph ordering outpost
14 ground troops to conduct protective operations in areas which are not
15 easily visible?
16 A. I would suggest that this is a standard procedure to be followed;
17 whether it was followed, that is another matter.
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. But that is what's written in the order for normal safety
20 precautions around a deployment area.
21 Q. And could you just explain in perhaps more straightforward
22 language than paragraph 17 does what that standard deployment would
23 consist of?
24 A. So bearing in mind that the troops concerned, both the VJ and the
25 MUP, had been operating in this area, we're talking May for nearly three,
1 four, five months, one would expect them to have a good, if not very good,
2 knowledge of the area, or they should have had. That depends on their
3 patrolling ability. And, therefore, they should be able to pin-point
4 potential areas of problems and take the appropriate actions to safeguard
5 themselves. Now, that is presupposing that they carry out the correct
6 military actions.
7 Q. Yes. All we can deduce from this document is what is being
9 A. The orders are clear to protect the lines of communication from
11 Q. And in practical terms, just to spell it out for the record, that
12 would mean putting ground troops into locations in the redeployment sector
13 where there may be concentrations of, for example, KLA who could pose a
14 threat to the troops that were being redeployed into those areas. Is that
16 A. With respect, it's not necessary to put troops in -- directly into
17 areas. A military expression is you can cover an area by fire from an
18 elevated position, rather than exposing troops to guerilla tactics at a
20 Q. But you'd need to be in a position to fire into the area if there
21 was any movement?
22 A. Yes. That would be useful, yes.
23 Q. And would you expect sniper -- snipers to be used for that
25 A. Are we talking about the Kosovo Liberation Army?
1 Q. No, the Serb sentinels?
2 A. I would think that they would use a combination of both sniper and
3 both direct fire from armoured personnel carriers and tanks and indirect
4 direct fire from other artillery or mortars.
5 Q. So the intention, taken together with the first part of this
6 order, the intention underlying the instructions here set out includes the
7 provision of fire-power to cover an area of redeployment which moves from
8 Pec to Erecka Suka and to Lake Radoniq; in other words, move south from
9 Pec to those two locations?
10 A. That is the written order, sir, and it says to break-up or
11 destroy, I think --
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. -- which indicates that a fairly heavy weight of force could
14 possibly be used.
15 Q. And just finally this: "Advance security and outguard sentinels."
16 What do those terms mean in military terminology?
17 A. Well, so they could cover a variety of -- it could be mobile
18 forces, well protected; it could be the special forces, who, as I
19 indicated, are better trained; it could be just heavy, ordinary forces
20 grouped with heavy fire-power and the ability to withstand any small
21 attack that may be mounted against them. So there is a variety of
23 Q. Looking at paragraph 14, the instruction includes an instruction
24 to mine the redeployment areas. Do you see that?
25 A. Yes, it says "mines." So these could be what we called protection
1 mines, not, you know, to physically mine it, to block it, but to mine, to
2 protect your own defensive position. So these mines may not be left
3 there. They may be put, deployed when you are in the area for you are own
4 protection; and as you withdraw from that position, you then take them
5 back with you.
6 Q. Which is what the second part of paragraph 14 seems to imply, I
8 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
9 Q. In order to lay mines, presumably, there would need to be ground
10 troops for protection?
11 A. It's always better if that is done, but these protection mines can
12 be are laid by the ground troops themselves because they are laid close to
13 them in order to give immediate protection against surprise attack.
14 Q. Thank you. Could you turn please to tab 15 now for a moment,
15 because I think you indicated earlier on that obviously your ability to
16 observe the conduct of particular offensives depended on the access that
17 you had to an area at any given time.
18 MR. EMMERSON: May I make it clear, this is a document which
19 should not be shown on the public screen. For the record, it currently
20 has no MFI number.
21 JUDGE ORIE: That should be assigned an MFI number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D721,
23 marked for identification.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
25 MR. EMMERSON:
1 Q. Now, if I can just allow you a moment to orientate yourself,
2 Colonel Crosland, with this document. It's a situation report dated the
3 28th of May. Is that correct?
4 A. That's the date, time group, on it, yes.
5 Q. And, in essence, I'm going to suggest to you that what you're
6 reporting here is a situation whereby you were being denied access to the
7 area around Decane by the Serb forces whilst the end-of-May offensive was
8 being conducted, but that you were able to see the consequences in the
9 village of Ljubenic on the main Peje to Decane road. That is the general
10 suggestion to you; but before you respond to that, perhaps we might look
11 at some of the detail.
12 First of all, in the summary, at the bottom of page 1, I'll just
13 read it into the record: "Two-day tour of western Kosovo; freedom of
14 movement more restricted than normal (could not get to Djakovica and
15 Decani); Village of Kijevo (south-east of Klina) in hands of armed Serb
16 civilians; saw evidence of recent house burning in two villages north of
17 Decani - witnesses tell of helicopter attack on two small villages to the
18 west of Rudnik; witnessed the arrival of large MUP convoy in region; also
19 saw large JSO convoy returning towards what we believe is its base
20 location; No evidence of VJ involvement in actions. MUP turning the
22 Now, I want to look at that in a little more detail, please.
23 First of all, if we turn over the page, paragraph 2, under the heading:
24 "Restriction of movement," and allowing yourself a moment just to read
25 that paragraph.
1 Do you have that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Taking it shortly, does it appear, therefore, that your party was
4 being denied access to the Decani area, first of all, by Serb forces?
5 A. That's correct, sir, as written, yes.
6 Q. And does it appear that because of the way in which the
7 check-points were each of them turning you back, that there must have been
8 a central order to keep internationals, that is diplomats and the press,
10 A. That appears to be correct, sir, yes.
11 Q. And that coincided with a significant increase, did it, in MUP
12 forces in the area?
13 A. As stated on my report, sir, yes.
14 Q. But you did, I think, manage to get as far south on the main road
15 as Ljubenic and Gornji Streoc because we can see in paragraph 4 that you
16 made a visit to those two villages. So if I can just pick it up at
17 paragraph 4 under the heading of: "House burning in villages north of
18 Decani." Unfortunately, as is often the position with your situation
19 reports, a line gets chopped off at the bottom of the page. We often miss
20 a line, so we have to pick that paragraph 4 up in the middle of the
21 sentence, but it reads: "... of the buildings astride the main road in
22 Ljubenic and Gornji Streoc had been strafed," presumably strafed with
23 gun-fire, Colonel Crosland?
24 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
25 Q. "The spent cases had not been there more than a day or so. Some
1 of the houses were burnt out. One in Gornji Streoc was still smoldering.
2 The MUP was not in sight."
3 I'm just allowing the transcript to catch up.
4 "The villages appeared deserted, but after a short while a number
5 (20) of Albanian men came out to tell us what had happened. They said
6 that the villages had been attacked and 11 people were killed. The
7 attacks took place on Monday, the 25th of May. Their descriptions of the
8 perpetrators match the JSO rather than the regular MUP."
9 There's then for a few lines a description of one of the Albanians
10 to whom you spoke who had a jacket with AK-47 magazines in it.
11 JUDGE ORIE: One moment, please, Mr. Emmerson.
12 You now may proceed.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
14 Q. Now, pausing there for a moment, do you remember that occasion?
15 A. Yes. I think, sir, yes.
16 Q. I just want to see - and I appreciate you had a great deal to
17 follow-up on, and there was a great deal going on Kosovo-wide - but do you
18 remember whether there was any follow-up to that, whether you conducted
19 any other inquiries or picked up any other information from anywhere else
20 about what had happened on the 25th of May in those two villages?
21 A. No. I think the report is as full, as I can recall, sir, bearing
22 in mind that the situation, as I said, was extremely fluid and changing
23 very often, you know, from minute to minute, as one side or the other
24 locally got the better for a short time.
25 Q. Could I just ask you very briefly to look behind tab 39, which is
1 a report from the OSCE covering --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson --
3 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, tab 39.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, if you are moving to another tab, I'd
5 like to ask one additional question or will you return to this one?
6 MR. EMMERSON: I'm coming back to this one. I'm most definitely
7 coming back to this one.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. EMMERSON: Tab 39 will need to be marked for identification.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that will be number?
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be D72, marked for
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
14 MR. EMMERSON:
15 Q. Now, this is a Kosovo Verification Mission summary of events in
16 Kosovo, which cover both 1998 and 1999; and in this section, it deals with
17 it village by village. And if you look at the second page of the
18 selection there, you can see the village of Ljubenic referred to and the
19 report reads as follows: "Ljubenic just off the main road to Decani,
20 seven kilometres south of Pec, is a mixed village situated at the foot of
21 steep cliffs rising high above the plain. It was the site of a reported
22 mass killing on the 25th of May, 1998, in which eight people were
23 extra-judicially executed by the Serbian police." And there is then a
24 footnote which I'll come back to in a moment.
25 "At that time, independent verifiers were unable to reach this
1 area of heavy fighting. During fighting which began a few days later,
2 about 40 houses were destroyed or severely damaged and most of the Kosovo
3 Albanian population moved out." And the rest deals with 1999.
4 Now, the footnote is set out on the following page and is
5 footnoted to an Amnesty International report, and then immediately after
6 that is an extract from a web site called the Kosovo Crisis Centre which
7 has a number of photographs with the rubric: "Lybeniq, 25th of May, 1998,
8 attributed to Koha Ditore."
9 Now, pausing for a moment there, would you agree that the OSCE
10 report appears to be referring to the same incident that you came across
11 the aftermath of; in other words, Lybeniq on the 25th of May, 1998?
12 A. That appears to be in the same area, yes, sir.
13 Q. So although they were under the impression that independent
14 verifiers had been unable to reach the area at the time, you had, in fact,
15 got there at least within the three days of that attack?
16 A. That appears to be correct, sir, yeah.
17 Q. Koha Ditore, I think you said - I may be wrong about this - but
18 did you not say Koha Ditore was what you regarded as a reliable Albanian
20 A. That was the major source within Pristina, yes.
21 Q. So it appears as though, without commenting on the detail of the
22 photographs, it appears as though the account you were given of a number
23 of people - I think you were told 11, is that correct, having been killed
24 by the JSO - is supported at least by other reports of that incident.
25 Would you agree?
1 A. That appears correct, sir, yes.
2 Q. And the photographs, if they are indeed victims of that attack,
3 are all individuals in civilian clothes?
4 A. They appear to be in civilian clothes, yes, sir.
5 Q. If we can move a little further down.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Did Your Honour have any questions on tab 15 on the
7 passage I had already dealt with.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I had.
9 I would like to draw the attention of you, Mr. Crosland, to the
10 second paragraph where it reads in the middle: "Decani has had the
11 largest MP presence in the last month."
12 I wondered what "MP" here stood for.
13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, sir, which page are you on?
14 JUDGE ORIE: I'm on tab 15, second page, paragraph 2: "Restriction
15 of movement," approximately in the middle: "Decani has had the largest MP
16 presence in the last month."
17 THE WITNESS: I think that should read "MUP," sir.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's what I guessed to be the problem.
19 THE WITNESS: That's a typing error.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
21 Please proceed.
22 MR. EMMERSON:
23 Q. Can we go back then to paragraph 4 where you've had this
24 conversation with the villagers of Gornji Streoc and you'd also visited
25 Lybeniq. Just a little lower down from that, you say this: "We left
1 after a short while and proceeded to a MUP check-point just north of
2 Decani. The MUP, after consulting with their superior HQ by land-line,
3 refused our request to go to Decani. Whilst waiting at the check-point,"
4 somebody, whose name is redacted, "asked about a shot-up VW Golf. The MUP
5 said that on Monday, the 25th of May, two MUP were travelling from Pec to
6 Decani when they were ambushed in one of the villages to the north of the
7 check-point. One was killed and the other wounded. It is plausible that
8 the actions against the two" --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson --
10 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
12 Yes, please proceed.
13 MR. EMMERSON:
14 Q. You go on to observe: "It is plausible that the actions against
15 the two villages," that is Lybeniq and Gornji Streoc, "could have been
16 sparked off by this ambush. The VW had Montenegrin number plates. We
17 returned to Pec."
18 Now, Colonel Crosland, I just want to ask you one or two questions
19 about that passage because you seem to be of the view that those attacks
20 on those two villages on the 25th of May, the same day as the shooting or
21 ambush of this Golf containing MUP members, that those attacks might have
22 been retributive attacks. Is that right?
23 A. Yes. As I said many times, this key axis, the major route from
24 Pec down to Decani on to Djakovica and Prizren, was fought over on a daily
25 basis; and, therefore, opportunity targets to both sides, both to the KLA
1 and the MUP/VJ, were engaged as and when these were offered. Therefore, I
2 think it is quite plausible, as I've said, that this was a retaliatory --
3 possibly a retaliatory attack, having lost two MUP.
4 Q. Well, what I want --
5 A. But it could have been part, as you are indicating, of a larger
7 Q. Yes. I just want to look at that in just a little more detail
8 with you. You're clear that you were told that one of the two MUP in the
9 Golf had died. Is that right? That's what you've recorded at least?
10 A. That's what I recorded, yes.
11 Q. We've heard evidence in this court from a witness who was a member
12 of the MUP who was driving in a Golf motor car from Pec to Decani on the
13 25th of May with another MUP officer and a civilian and whose vehicle was
14 opened fire on by a group of young KLA soldiers or volunteers and the
15 vehicle was damaged. And the witness who gave evidence here was struck in
16 the leg and injured, but nobody was killed in the incident. And what I'm
17 trying to explore is the possibility that the two may well be one and the
19 We know that the incident that the witness who gave evidence here
20 described was said to have taken place on the main road that day near
21 Lybeniq. Do you remember whether you were told that the attack that's
22 referred to here on a Golf motor car was an attack that had occurred
23 somewhere in the vicinity of Lybeniq?
24 A. Sir, all I can do is repeat that what is written in my report is
25 as accurate as I can make it.
1 Q. But the Golf when you saw it, at least, three days after this
2 incident was located, was it, at a check-point north of Decani, so it
3 seems in any event?
4 A. Sir, that's what's written in the report. That's where it was,
5 sir, yes.
6 Q. But I suppose it's far too long ago for you to remember whether
7 that check-point was near Lybeniq or closer to Decani?
8 A. That's correct, sir. I mean, as I've tried to indicate to the
9 Court, there were -- there were many check-points, I believe strong
10 points all the way up and down that road which were put in position as and
11 when instances arose. So I'm afraid I cannot be any more specific than
13 Q. I entirely understand. But just returning then to the comment you
14 made a few moments ago. One possible explanation for the attacks and
15 killing of civilians in those two villages is retaliation; another is that
16 they were part of a wider offensive radiating south from Pec. And is it
17 fair to say that you're not in a position categorically to say which of
18 those two is the more likely explanation?
19 A. No, I entirely agree, sir.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 Could we look briefly at paragraph 8 for a moment, please. It
22 reads: "JSO convoy moving east out of Pec en route for base 2. As we
23 were entering Pec last night, we saw a JSO convoy, ten vehicles travelling
24 east towards" it says, "Vitromirica. The vehicles were all painted in
25 their unique camouflage. Some had JSO badges on their vehicle doors.
1 This is unusual. All the JSO wore camouflage paint."
2 Is that paint on their faces?
3 A. That's correct, sir.
4 Q. "They were in good spirits. Some Serbs waved to them. They
5 shouted back in a triumphal manner. This afternoon we found what we
6 believe is their base, a prison to the east of Istok. A BOV-3 in their
7 markings was parked in a hangar (5 BOV-3 was in their convoy last night).
8 We believe another JSO location is the hotel above and to the west of
9 Decani monastery."
10 Paragraph 9: "No evidence of VJ involvement. No one we spoke to
11 mentioned VJ involvement. Once questioned they spoke of JSO, PJP, or MUP
13 And then two sentences further on: "We believe that the VJ is
14 giving materiel support, vehicles repainted blue, logistics, et cetera."
15 Pausing there, the BOV-3 that you saw in the possession of the JSO
16 is one of those anti-aircraft weapons that was being deployed for
17 anti-personnel use; correct?
18 A. It was. That's correct, sir, yes.
19 Q. And, again, this is obviously one of those occasions when you've
20 recorded your belief that vehicles of the VJ were being repainted blue.
21 Can you just be clear for us, the JSO vehicles that you describe, would
22 they be blue?
23 A. No. As they are as described in their unique camouflage patterns.
24 Q. Very well. So when the VJ vehicles are being - if I can put it
25 this way - re-allocated, it is re-allocated to the MUP and the PJP?
1 A. As far as I understand, they would be re-allocated to the MUP and
2 they -- internally, they would then decide where they would deploy them.
3 Q. And then finally this, under paragraph 10: "MUP turning the
4 screw." Can you just explain for the record what you mean by that
6 A. As I've said to the Court before, the major axes across -- or the
7 major routes, rather, across Kosovo had been blocked for some time, for
8 some weeks. And it appeared now that the Serbian security forces, as a
9 whole, were starting a more comprehensive policy to attempt to try and
10 clear the area and to -- also to maintain some authority over the major
11 communication routes.
12 Q. I think on one previous occasion when describing that expression,
13 you indicated, in effect, that what was being utilised was a policy of
14 general wanton destruction and dislocation of normal life for the Albanian
15 population with the aim of making the place uninhabitable. Is that a fair
17 A. That's a correct summary, sir, yeah.
18 Q. But as we can see under paragraph 10, would you agree, the
19 information that you were able to obtain about how this offensive was, in
20 fact, being conducted was information that by and large you could only
21 pick up from speaking to individuals who had been in the area rather than
22 observing it for yourself?
23 A. With respect, sir, I don't think that's entirely true.
24 Q. Very well.
25 A. We, as I indicated, were in the area for a considerable amount of
1 the time on a continuous basis, and the assessment was based on my
2 professional ability, but, of course, we were not privy to the direct
3 orders that were issued to the Serbian security forces.
4 Q. Thank you. Can we turn now, please, to tab 16. This is again a
5 document that does not have an MFI number yet. It is on the 65 ter list.
6 It is a draft translation; and, therefore, if there is a perfected
7 translation, we will ensure that it is substituted.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D73,
9 marked for identification.
10 MR. EMMERSON:
11 Q. Colonel Crosland, this is a handwritten in its original --
12 JUDGE ORIE: One second, Mr. Emmerson.
13 Please proceed.
14 MR. EMMERSON:
15 Q. In its original form, this is a handwritten document, ordering
16 certain deployments. It's headed: "PrK," that is Pristina Corps command,
17 dated the 28th of May, and addressed to the PrK command and the 3rd Army
18 to the commander or the Chief of Staff. And, in summary, it describes
19 military action that was being planned and taken as part of what I suggest
20 at least is the end-of-May Serb offensive. Can I ask you to turn to page
21 3 for a moment.
22 "I have decided" at paragraph 3.
23 "I have decided:
24 "In coordinated action with MUP forces, unblock the
25 Sisman-Ponosevac-Molic-Junik route and the Ponosevac-Donja Morina-Potok
1 Molic route. Group the main forces to unblock the road along the axis of
2 Ponosevac-Molic-Junik and group auxiliary forces along the axis of
3 Ponosevac-Donja Morina-Potok Molic."
4 Again, pausing there, those are all villages on the western side
5 of the main road and consistent with the order that we looked at a little
6 while ago. Is that correct?
7 A. That appears to be correct, sir, yes.
8 Q. Two lines further down: "Be at the ready for engagement by 0400
9 hours on," and then there's some uncertainty about the date, given the
10 date of the document is the 28th of May, it says: "2/? 8 May 1998.
11 "BG-2 of the 125th Motorised Brigade, together with the 30/2
12 PAT/30-millimetre, double-barrelled anti-aircraft gun/platoon from the
13 52nd arbr PVO/anti-aircraft artillery rocket brigade, in cooperated action
14 with the MUP forces are to unblock the Ponosevac-Molic-Junik and
15 Ponosevac-Donja Morina-Potok Molic routes.
16 "BG-2 of the 549th Motorised Brigade is to unblock the
17 Sisman-Smonica-Popovac route.
18 "BG-3 of the 125th Motorised Brigade is to unblock the
19 Pec-Rausic-Ljubenic route. The 3rd bVP is to perform in-depth security of
20 the state border and a diversionary advance along the axis of G. Pavle
21 Ilic border post-Decani-Crnobreg."
22 Continuing: "The 52nd bVP is to launch a diversionary attack
23 along the axis of Radonjic Lake to Donji Bites village, while the 52nd
24 arbr is to launch a diversionary attack along the axis of
25 Djakovica-Cabrat-Osek Hilja."
1 And over the page: "Have a tank platoon, a bVP plant and a 30/2
2 PAT platoon on reserve," and then various weapons are referred to.
3 If we can look at the bottom of that page: "Situation in the
5 "Check-points and Serbia MUP patrols are operating according to
7 "The territory controlled by Siptar terrorists stands as in the
8 previous days. It was noted that terrorists in Glodjane village are
9 undertaking comprehensive preparations to fortify the village."
10 Do you see that?
11 A. That's written there, sir, yes.
12 Q. Now, looking back, please, at the two aspects of the manoeuvres at
13 the bottom of page 3. The 3rd bVP is to perform in-depth security of the
14 state border and a diversionary advance along the axis of the G. Pavle
15 Ilic border post-Decani-Carrabreg, and the 52nd bVP a diversionary attack
16 along an axis from Lake Radonjic to Donji Bites. Now, Donji Bites is
17 adjacent to Suka Bitesh, is it not? It's a village close to the lake?
18 A. I can't remember, sir, if you say so. I don't recall the village.
19 It's not on the map that I have.
20 Q. Well, we can clarify the position as the day progresses. But do
21 you have the map with the red circles marked upon it available to you? If
22 not, we can just provide you with a copy of it.
23 MR. EMMERSON: It's D32 that the witness is being shown now.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, before you proceed, you said that the
25 document under tab 16 was in the original handwritten; whereas, I see that
1 there is some handwriting as far as the date is concerned; but the
2 document, as such, doesn't seem to be handwritten.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. I had taken that from the typed script
4 which says: "Handwritten" at the top.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Handwritten must be the date.
6 MR. EMMERSON: The date.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And it says 28.05.
8 MR. EMMERSON: And it makes complete sense in context because on
9 the type script, it says: "Handwritten 28th: May."
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Can the witness be provided with this map which is
12 rather easier to see than the one he's marked. This is D32, and it's the
13 map that we're all familiar with.
14 Q. Just to orientate yourself, do you see the lake and Radonjicka
15 Suka, the hill immediately to the west of the lake at 571 metres above sea
17 A. Yes, I do. Yeah.
18 Q. And immediately to the west of that are a smattering of houses
19 along a road there, do you see that, against D. Bites?
20 A. Yeah.
21 Q. So that is, obviously, one axis of diversionary advance from the
22 lake towards Donji Bites, whilst there is taking place at the same time,
23 or planned to take place at the same time, a diversionary advance from
24 Decane to Carrabreg, which we can see immediately south-west of Decane.
25 Now, first of all, those two advances are, in effect, a pincer movement
1 towards Gllogjan, are they not?
2 A. That's what they appear to be, sir, yes.
3 Q. At the end of May. What exactly is a diversionary attack?
4 A. Well, a diversionary attack is supposed to hide the main thrust of
5 another operation that may be being planned or be in concert with the
6 diversionary attack.
7 Q. So to draw the attention of the enemy into an area where you can
8 engage them and - if I may put it this way - approach them unaware from a
9 different direction?
10 A. That could be one way of putting it, yes.
11 Q. So that would imply, would it not, that what was being planned
12 here was a --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Just one moment.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
15 MR. EMMERSON:
16 Q. That would imply, would it not, that what's being planned here is
17 a diversionary attack up to Donji Bites village in order to draw KLA
18 attention in that direction and away from Gllogjan?
19 A. That is possible, sir, yes.
20 Q. And it would appear, at least from the last two lines in this
21 document, would you agree, that special attention was being paid to the
22 preparations that may be being made in Gllogjan village for this attack?
23 A. That's, again, what is written down, sir, yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Can we turn then, please, to tab 17. I'm sorry.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That is D34.
1 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
2 Q. I can take this very briefly. This is an order of the same day
3 signed by Major-General Pavkovic; and just casting an eye over it, can I
4 ask you to confirm that this is an order apparently directing a military
5 offensive on the western side of the road, the western side of the main
6 road, from Decane towards Locane, Slup, Voksa, Junik, and from Varic and
7 the Erenik stream; in other words, look at the document as a whole and the
8 places there referred to it seems to be ordering a simultaneous attack to
9 take place on the 28th of May on the western side of the road. Would you
10 agree with that?
11 A. I would, sir, yes.
12 Q. So looking at those orders together, and looking at the evidence
13 of what you found in Gornji Streoc and Lybeniq and the fact that despite
14 the troop build-up in the area, the internationals were being excluded at
15 this point in time, do you think on reflection what was taking place was a
16 major Serbian offensive on both sides of the road?
17 A. That's what the orders have been issued to carry out, sir.
18 Q. And I think, if we turn --
19 MR. EMMERSON I'm not sure that that last document was marked for
20 identification, was it? It was. I'm sorry.
21 Q. If we turn behind tab 18 now, not to be shown to the public, which
22 is a DipTel, you can help us with this, which may be describing the
23 aftermath once you were able to get some more information.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson. Mr. Emmerson.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Before we move to tab 18, you suggested in your
2 question to the witness that D34, as you said, seems to be ordering a
3 simultaneous attack to take place on the 28th of May. The witness
4 confirmed it.
5 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
6 JUDGE ORIE: What I see at this document is that it bears the date
7 of the 28th of May, 1998, that from what I understand - but let me check
8 in the original - that it is supposed to bear a stamp at least, that's
9 what the translation says, which I have difficulties to find in the
10 original as it appears on my screen.
11 Yes. I might have the wrong one in front of me. I searched for
12 D34, but could you give me the Defence number. Would that be 1D04-0008?
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Not tiff.
15 Now, I have it in the is it system as a one-page document so I
16 can't look at it; but in the translation, it says that it was received at
17 the 28th of May, and then unclear, at 20 minutes past 8.00 at night.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: And in the first full paragraph at the end --
20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- it reads: "On stand-by the 29th of May, at 4.00
22 in the morning."
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So I wonder what made you suggest that it was planned
25 as an attack on the 28th of May and what made the witness confirm that.
1 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I think it -- I'd have to check the precise
2 words that I used, but what I was intending to say this was a 28th of May
3 order for activity to take place in the early hours of the morning.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. EMMERSON: I think we looked at this document once before and
6 I'm sorry if I used shorthand.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And I'm still wondering where the second page in the
8 e-court is.
9 MR. EMMERSON: We will need to check that. It is possibly a stamp
10 on the rear of the single page, but we will need to check that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It could be. That should be copied and then
12 reproduced in the e-court system as well.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
15 MR. EMMERSON: If I can go back to tab 18 not to be shown to the
16 public, and I think not yet ascribed an MFI number.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then Madam Registrar, for tab 19 --
18 MR. EMMERSON: Tab 18.
19 JUDGE ORIE: No, tab 18 bears P99.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you. So it's P99 that I'm looking at, if I
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. EMMERSON:
24 Q. This is a report for the 4th of June. "There are reports" under
25 "Security." The heading, "Security," under paragraph 2.
1 "There are reports that fighting continues, mainly in the Decani
2 area of western Kosovo. My DA has reported that he was turned back...
3 north of Pec and south of Djakovica, so we have no independent
5 Pausing there. This is presumably Ambassador Donnelly reporting
6 back to London some of the difficulties you had experienced getting into
8 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
9 Q. Then paragraph 3: "There are also suggestions that the security
10 forces are expanding the area of their operations. Some reports speak of
11 shelling and police movements near Glodjane and Jablanica, KLA headquarter
12 cases east of Decani; security force sources claim that 1.000 KLA
13 supporters are based in Glodjane."
14 Now, pausing there for a moment. Do you recall there being
15 reports of police movements near Gllogjan at that
16 end-of-May/beginning-of-June period?
17 A. I think as we indicated, sir, there are movements all along this
18 major axis.
19 Q. Yes. But Gllogjan is some distance to the west of the main road
20 and there may be some significance in police movements as well as shelling
21 in the heartland area of Gllogjan.
22 A. I think it would be true to make an assertion, sir, that the VJ or
23 the Serbian security forces had indications where there may have been
24 possible KLA bases and, therefore, they may well have shelled these
25 potential positions --
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. -- as they had shown throughout -- sorry -- I beg your pardon,
4 As they had shown throughout the context or the contact in Kosovo,
5 which I think I've tried to indicate on many occasions.
6 Q. Yes. I mean, shelling I think we've heard a fair deal about. But
7 the report here is speaking not merely of shelling of Gllogjan, but of
8 police movements near Gllogjan. Now, presumably police movements means
9 police movements across the ground?
10 A. Yes. With respect to you, Mr. Emmerson, this is Ambassador
11 Donnelly's report.
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. He has taken my previous -- or the previous report that I made and
14 he is now adding to it from other intelligence sources --
15 Q. Yes --
16 A. -- that I would not be privy to because I was on the ground.
17 Q. Just bear with us for a moment.
18 A. Sorry.
19 Q. No.
20 Yes. I had understood that when Ambassador Donnelly reported to
21 the foreign office, he was doing so not merely from your own information
22 but from other intelligence available --
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. -- but presumably he wouldn't have reported police movements near
25 Gllogjan unless he had some information regarded as reliable that that's
1 what was taking place?
2 A. Well, there are other intelligence sources, overhead sources, that
3 could possibly have confirmed that --
4 Q. Exactly so --
5 A. -- which again I wouldn't be privy to being out on -- I mean, it's
6 part of normal procedure that if someone is out on the ground gaining
7 information, then he's not necessarily told the information in order that
8 the information can be verified are not --
9 Q. Independently?
10 A. -- independently, and if you can get access to the area. And on
11 this occasion, as I have stated in reports, access was denied, quite
12 understandably, when military operations were underway.
13 Q. But just for the sake of clarity, the language used by Ambassador
14 Donnelly there, where he distinguishes between shelling on the one hand
15 and police movements near Gllogjan on the other, that expression "police
16 movements," accurate or not, is a report to London that there are police
17 movements on the ground near Gllogjan, isn't it?
18 A. Yes. That's what it is stating.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. As I say, it may well have come from other sources that I can't
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I'm looking at the clock if you can
23 find a suitable moment.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I will. It may be just now, in fact. Would
25 Your Honour just give me a moment.
1 Q. Just finally this, Colonel Crosland. In a statement that you made
2 in July of 2004, commenting on this document, you said that it generally
3 referred to fighting around Decani that you recalled as "a raging battle."
4 Is that a fair description of what the information was that you
5 were picking up; in other words, that there had been a major offensive and
6 that there had been military activity, including military activity in the
7 area of Gllogjan?
8 A. Yes, sir. It comes from a statement of mine based, as I have
9 indicated to the Court, on a lot of reports that were sent back, both
10 verbally and by secure phone. I think it would be fair to say that there
11 was a huge amount of military activity in the area.
12 Q. Yes. Thank you very much.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Would that be a convenient moment?
14 JUDGE ORIE: That would be a convenient moment, but let me just
15 make two observations. First of all, I don't remember the history of
16 tendering P99. I noticed that there is no translation in the e-court
17 system in a language the accused understands; but since I see that you're
18 cross-examining on it without making any reference to the absence of such
19 a translation, I take it that this is accepted.
20 MR. EMMERSON: That is accepted.
21 Would Your Honour just give me a moment.
22 [Defence counsel confer]
23 MR. EMMERSON: I think, just in answer to Your Honour's question
24 about the provenance of it becoming P99, subject to correction from Madam
25 Registrar, we believe that to have been one of the documents that
1 yesterday morning was ascribed a number, although -- I can't --
2 JUDGE ORIE: I would be surprised if it bears P99 because we are
3 far beyond that.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. We may need to check this, because it is
5 undoubtedly a Prosecution document.
6 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm not that much interested in the history as
7 such, but I just noticed that it is not available in a language in which
8 exhibits usually have to be available.
9 MR. EMMERSON: So far as my client is concerned, that is not a
11 JUDGE ORIE: It is not a problem. If that would be different for
12 other counsel, then I would like to hear.
13 Then, finally, the last line on the first page disappears on the
14 copy. If there would be a better copy, that's both true for the hard copy
15 and the electronic version, if there would be a better one to be uploaded,
16 that, of course, would be preferable.
17 MR. EMMERSON: As I indicated earlier on, this is a systemic
18 problem with the sitreps and the DipTels. There is very often a line
19 missing at the bottom of the page.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll adjourn and have a break until 11.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
22 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.
25 Q. Can we turn, please, to tab 19, Colonel Crosland.
1 MR. EMMERSON: This is a document that requires marking for
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D74,
5 marked for identification.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
7 MR. EMMERSON: For the record, it is a Pristina Corps command
8 order assigned by commander Major-General Pavkovic, and it is dated the
9 10th of June and there is only one passage I want to turn to, it is on
10 page 2, under the heading 3: "Situation of the corps units."
11 Q. The corps in this context would presumably refer to the 3rd Army
12 as a whole. Is that correct, Colonel Crosland, the Pristina Corps of the
13 3rd Army?
14 A. Well, within the 3rd Army as the major formation, the 52 Pristina
15 Corps is presumably the corps that General Pavkovic is referring to.
16 Q. Yes.
17 A. So the corps actually based in Kosovo, yeah.
18 Q. And there's a passage there that begins by referring to the fact
19 that the corps units, during the day, the 10th of June, have been
20 executing tasks successfully, that its focal point was to secure the
21 border and communications and various villages there set out to the west
22 side of the main road.
23 And then just halfway down that paragraph, there's a sentence that
24 reads as follows: "During the day, officers of the PrK command in
25 coordination with the IKMs have positioned the KSJ units in the following
1 areas of deployment."
2 Pausing there, do you know what the IKM acronym would be?
3 A. I'm sorry, sir, I don't.
4 Q. It is obviously Kosovo --
5 A. We're on page 2 of 5, are we?
6 Q. Yes. If you don't know instantly, then don't worry. We'll find
7 out from somewhere else?
8 MR. RE: It actually means forward command post. It's on the
9 first page.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Mr. Re is quite right. The words -- the acronym
12 IKM is translated on the first page as forward command post.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. EMMERSON: And KSJ is an abbreviation the translators didn't
16 Q. Do you know what those letters might stand for, Colonel Crosland?
17 A. It is not an abbreviation I'm familiar with.
18 Q. Carrying on, the positions then of various units are described.
19 If you can find the third bullet point, there is a reference to the "72nd
20 SPECBR," that is special brigade, "IDC/reconnaissance-sabotage company -
21 in the area of Maja Coban." And then this: "The 25th CVP/military police
22 company/in the area of the Radonjic Lake (subordinated to the 52nd
23 BVP/military Police Battalion). Safe and stable communication has been
24 established with all units."
25 There are two formations referred there: The 25th Military Police
1 Company in the area of Radonjic lake, which is then subordinated to the
2 52nd Military Police Battalion. Can you indicate for us what your reading
3 of that paragraph is; in other words, what it's telling us.
4 A. The 72nd Special Brigade are formation troops who were brought
5 down into Kosovo and were extant of -- in the order of battle, they would
6 be VJ headquarters troops based from Belgrade. So they are not an
7 original part of 3rd Army and 52 Corps in the province of Kosovo. The
8 other unit, 25 military police, appears to be a subunit of the 52nd
9 Military Police Battalion, which would probably make sense.
10 Q. Given that the rubric, before the bullet points, indicates that
11 the units referred to have been positioned in the following areas of
12 deployment and given that the last sentence of that sub-bullet point
13 refers to the establishment of safe and stable communication, does this
14 indicate some sort of reinforcement or additional troops being placed in
15 that position, in your view?
16 A. I think that's a reasonable assumption to make, bearing in mind
17 that Lake Radonjic was probably a vital area of control for the Serbian --
18 the Serbian security forces.
19 Q. And, of course, we know that they had already been stationed there
20 for some time because you yourself had seen them shelling from there at
21 the end of July?
22 A. I don't think the military police would have been shelling.
23 Q. No.
24 A. Another unit would have been shelling.
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Can we turn to tab 22, please. I'm going to take these documents
3 at a reasonable pace. Tab 22, again, is a VJ document signed by Colonel
4 Lazarevic, the Chief of Staff, and it's dated --
5 JUDGE ORIE: It would need a number?
6 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, it would need a number.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D75,
9 marked for identification.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
11 MR. EMMERSON:
12 Q. And it's dated the 23rd of June. I want to go through this in
13 just a little detail, if I may. Paragraph -- under the heading: "Very
14 urgent to the commander," the first paragraph refers to a verbal order
15 issued by the commander of the 3rd Army and based on current needs, and
16 with the aim of taking the Radonjicka Suka feature."
17 Do you know what the word "feature" means in that context, "the
18 Radonjicka Suka feature"?
19 A. I presume it is an important ground feature of tactical
21 Q. A little lower down underneath the order, there is a formation
22 described. Can we just go through it.
23 "The formation of temporary BG," that is combat group, "5 forces
24 with the following composition."
25 So this appears, would you agree, to be an order that a new combat
1 group, a temporary combat group, with a name combat group 5 should be
2 created with the following subcomponents. Is that true?
3 A. That's what appears to be written there, sir, yes.
4 Q. And the components are: "Command, communication squad, and a
5 medical squad from the 52nd arbr PVO," that is, Anti-aircraft Rocket
7 Then: "A 30/2-millimetre PAT/30-millimetre, double-barrel
8 anti-aircraft gun/platoon from the 52nd arbr PVO (withdraw the platoon
9 from the 52nd bVP/military police battalion, and in its place engage a
10 20/3-millimetre PAT platoon and a BOV-3/self-propelled anti-aircraft
11 gun/from BG-1)."
12 Can you help us in summary terms with what that is describing?
13 A. It appears to state that the anti-aircraft assets are being
14 re-organised within this new battle group --
15 Q. And does that --
16 A. -- as stated, yes.
17 Q. And does that then apply also to the following line:
18 "120-millimetre MB/mortar/platoon from the 549th Motorised Brigade (to be
19 withdrawn from the 52nd bVP)."
20 A. That fact appears to be correct there, sir.
21 Q. And then: "A mechanised platoon from the M-80 bVP of the 243rd
22 Motorised Brigade (on reserve at the IKM)," which is the forward command
24 So, overall, this is a reallocation of VJ forces to create a new
25 combat group 5 temporarily for some particular purpose.
1 A. That appears to be correct, yes.
2 Q. And the purpose is to take some feature on the land of military
3 significance in the area of Radonjicka Suka?
4 A. That appears to be correct, yeah.
5 Q. And just at the bottom there, we can see two infantry squads. Do
6 you see that --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. -- as a component of this grouping?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Just so we're clear, what would be the approximate size of two
11 infantry squads, and what is the significance of them being described as
12 infantry squads?
13 A. A squad could be, in American terminology, anything between eight
14 and 15 to 20 men. So, we in the British army, we refer to sections and
15 platoons. A squad is, I think I'm right in saying, in American language
16 would be about eight to 15 to 20 men.
17 Q. Very well. So the fact that they're described as infantry squads,
18 does that tell us anything as to what their deployment or function would
19 be in this operation?
20 A. I suspect they're there for protection of some of these static
22 Q. As ground troops, in effect?
23 A. That's correct, yeah.
24 Q. So when we discussed earlier on whether you would expect there to
25 be ground troops operating on the ground to establish a cordon sanitaire
1 around artillery positions, does this assist you in answering that
3 A. They could be used for that particular task, yes, sir.
4 Q. A little bit further down, the deployment of BG-5, number 2.
5 "Deploy BG-5 to the Donji Bites village sector in Radonjicka Suka
6 by the 4.00 o'clock on the 23rd of June, 1998." Do you see that there?
7 A. That's written there, yes.
8 Q. "In coordinated action with the 52nd bVP and making use of
9 Radonjicka Suka, prevent operations by DTS/sabotage and terrorist
10 forces/along the axes of Rznic village to Glodjane-Donji Bites-Gornji
11 Ratis-Donji Ratis-Rakoc, and Gramocelj-Donji Bites village."
12 So there is a series of axes there described, included Rznic to
13 Glodjane and Ratis, in which there is clearly a determination to--
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson --
15 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, too fast.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, may I ask you to slow down --
17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- especially when you are reading these lists of
19 many names.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, of course.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
22 MR. EMMERSON:
23 Q. Would you agree, Colonel Crosland, what is being described there
24 as the function of BG-5 is to prevent KLA from operating along the axes
25 that are there described?
1 A. Those are the written orders written given--
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. -- to the troops. Whether they were carried out or whether they
4 were prevented, of course, is a different matter.
5 Q. Yes. But that is clearly the intention of this deployment?
6 A. That appears that is in the orders of the paragraph, yes.
7 Q. Of course, all of those axes that are there described are right in
8 the heart of the area you marked on your map and around the canal, are
9 they not?
10 A. They are indeed, sir, yes.
11 Q. And how would the BG-5, including their ground squads, how would
12 they go about preventing KLA free movement in those areas?
13 A. I think, with respect, you would have to ask that question to the
15 Q. Yes, I understand --
16 A. I mean, I think if I understand what you're getting at, sir, as
17 I've said all the way along, there is more than sufficient Serbian forces
18 to carry out this particular operation.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. What is it, if I may respectfully suggest, is that question is
21 their ability to carry out this type of military operation, and that's
22 where we have a difficulty or possibly a difficulty, I don't know.
23 Q. But in terms of stated intention, if you were to try to carry that
24 stated intention into effect, you would need, would you not, either to
25 have paramilitary anti-terrorist police operating on the ground, or at the
1 very least snipers able to take shots at KLA operatives as perceived
2 moving along the axes that are described?
3 A. With respect, sir, that is one way of doing it. There are many
4 ways of doing an encircling movement. There is what I would call the very
5 heavy -- the very heavy option of using ordinary troops or perhaps a more
6 precise operation of encircling with the use of aircraft and helicopters
7 rather than what I would call a direct assault, which was more likely the
8 norm of the Serbian forces.
9 Q. Just to follow that question and answer up a little bit. If you
10 want to cut-off, let us say, a group of KLA insurgents based in Gllogjan
11 using the tactic that you've just described, the expression you used, I
12 think, was encircling. Is that correct?
13 A. That's correct, sir.
14 Q. So you would need to ensure that there was no obvious avenue of
15 retreat. Is that correct?
16 A. It would be, yes. It would give you more chance of success.
17 Q. Yes. In catching and eliminating?
18 A. If that's what is required, yes.
19 Q. And you know from the geography that you had a focus of attention
20 on a KLA headquarters in Gllogjan here, but also that there was a KLA
21 headquarters in Jablanica, didn't you?
22 A. That is correct, sir, yeah.
23 Q. So militarily, if you're encircling Gllogjan, you've got to
24 cut-off the retreat to Jablanica, have you not?
25 A. If you want to try and achieve a proper objective, then, yes.
1 Q. Yes.
2 A. But if you are prepared to let people disappear for various
3 reasons, which would be too long to go into here, then you can leave them
4 an avenue down which to go which may be mutually beneficial for both
6 Q. But that would be an intentional strategy to drive them to
8 A. It would be, sir.
9 Q. If you were trying to encircle them you would have to cut off the
10 route, wouldn't you?
11 A. It would be wise to do that, yes.
12 Q. And the direct route from Gllogjan to Jablanica would take you
13 across the canal area, wouldn't it?
14 A. It could do so, sir, yes.
15 Q. So if you were trying to cut-off that avenue of retreat, you would
16 need to have some ability to control that area, would you not?
17 A. Yes, as I've indicated, if that's what you wanted to achieve.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, may I draw your attention to the fact
20 that I think on the last ten or 15 questions you put to the witness that
21 the answers were usually introduced by: "If this," "if that," and, of
22 course, I mean, if you want to achieve certain thing, it might be wise or
23 you could use -- I mean, that is of limited -- in limited terms assisting
24 the Chamber.
25 MR. EMMERSON: I understand. Can I just --
1 JUDGE ORIE: I don't want to stop you immediately but let's
2 avoid --
3 MR. EMMERSON: I understand Your Honour's point. In one sense,
4 one could say that about any order from the VJ because it's only a
5 statement of intention, which needs to be interpreted and applied in
6 context, and one doesn't know to what extent it was carried into effect.
7 But in understanding other evidence in the case, knowing that that was the
8 military strategy that the VJ was seeking to deploy and what its
9 implications would be may, in our submission, be of assistance to the
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, I would like to draw your
12 attention to the fact that it struck the Chamber that so many "ifs" are in
13 play at this moment.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MR. EMMERSON:
17 Q. Finally on this document, paragraph 3 describes the route to be
18 taken towards Donji Bites village, and it indicates it is to start at just
19 after 1.30 in the afternoon on the 23rd of June. And paragraph 4
20 indicates that "taking over of Radonjicka Suka feature and a section of
21 the features in Donji Bites village is to be to the done by the Djakovica
23 Do you see that over the page, point 4?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. So this, again, is clearly a joint VJ/MUP operation that is being
1 planned here?
2 A. That is correct, yes.
3 Q. And this was a time when you were being told in all communications
4 with the VJ that no such operations were taking place. Is that correct?
5 A. It was being denied at the time, yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Can we go to tab 23 now, please, and this should be
8 a document not shown to the public and it needs an MFI number.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, tab 23 would be?
10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D76,
11 marked for identification.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and under seal.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: I think everything's that's not shown to the public
15 should even, if only marked for identification, be under seal.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. EMMERSON:
18 Q. This, Colonel Crosland, is a 13th of July sitrep. Is that
20 A. That's the date on the document.
21 Q. Thank you very much. I just want to ask you about one or two
22 passages, please. Over on the second page, page 2, just halfway between
23 the punch-holes, there is a line that says: "Tour 10 July 1998" and a
24 route is set out for the tour, which I won't read out for the record.
25 It then says, "Comment CLN.
1 "UCK Rudnik area. About 30 UCK seen including German and Dutch
2 personnel, 2 times RPG 7 and spare bombs located at initial VCP otherwise
3 only rifles, pistols, and grenades. UCK admitted no COMMS between
5 What does that last sentence mean: "UCK in Rudnik admitted no
6 COMMSs between groups"?
7 A. I think on this particular occasion when I asked did they have
8 radio communication between their groups, that was the answer I was given.
9 Q. And "their groups" being?
10 A. The groups here around Rudnik, which is quite a long way from
11 Pec --
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. -- on the northern route towards Mitrovica.
14 Q. Can I pick it up then, please, at the bottom of page 2.
15 "Pec-heavy MUP/JSO roulement took place during PM. Approx 150
16 fresh-faced and heavily armed JSO drove south through Pec to probable
17 holding area around Decane. More JSO seen driving repeatedly around Pec
18 and others openly drinking close to BKS. All MUP positions also received
19 fresh personnel with clean uniforms and bergens, new faces see at VCPS.
20 20 assorted vehicle convoy passed tour at Prilep VCP going north, final
21 vehicle fired two bursts of automatic fire into Prilep area."
22 And then paragraph 5: "Wanton damage. Each successive visit to
23 Decane/Pec area highlights continuing damage being inflicted by MUP/JSO
24 forces randomly shooting up homes/houses/businesses and pilfering
25 contents. VJ also involved in further damage to Crnoljevo."
1 And then finally at the bottom --
2 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.
3 Q. Then, finally, at the bottom under the heading, "Abnormal force,"
4 there is a reference to the use of heavy weapons primarily against human
5 targets. Do you see that?
6 A. I do, sir, yes.
7 Q. Just one or two supplementary questions, please. This is
8 obviously a report of which you are the author. Is that correct?
9 A. It's, in fact, signed by David Landsman.
10 Q. I see. Would you have had an input into this?
11 A. At that particular time, yes. The reason I'm hesitating because I
12 was back in the UK in --
13 Q. For your daughter's wedding I think.
14 A. Yes, that's correct, sir. I was back here, yes. I would agree
15 with all the analysis here, which I think is fairly evident from all my
16 other reports. So none of that there is sadly anything out of the normal.
17 Q. What is clear, though, is that there's been a fresh influx of
18 forces into the JSO. Is that correct?
19 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
20 Q. And when it says, "openly drinking close to barracks," was that a
21 phenomenon that you were generally aware of?
22 A. No, sir. I think we were surprised to see, bearing in mind that
23 there were not many vehicles on the road apart from ourselves, that they
24 were openly advertising a rather lax attitude to discipline.
25 Q. Drinking, meaning drinking alcohol and getting drunk. Is that
2 A. Yeah, I mean, drinking and military operations, in my humble
3 opinion, shouldn't go together.
4 Q. Yes. Tab 24 --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
8 I'd like to ask one question you were earlier asked about the 10th
9 of July tour. There it reads, and I just don't understand, that "about 30
10 UCK seen, including German and Dutch personnel." Suddenly foreigners
11 appear, which is unclear to me. Could you explain?
12 THE WITNESS: Certainly, Your Honour, I will try. During the
13 course of 1998 when I was touring around all of Kosovo, we deliberately
14 made it our business to try and get to know and find out what the UCK or
15 the KLA, the Kosovo Liberation Army, was all about. On various occasions,
16 when we were apprehended by the KLA, it was quite clear that there were
17 foreigners within their ranks.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Being mercenaries or?
19 THE WITNESS: That's correct, sir, yes. And I had -- sorry. I
20 had other intelligence that indicated that foreigners were coming or were
21 spreading from the ongoing situation in Bosnia into Kosovo itself.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for this explanation.
23 MR. EMMERSON:
24 Q. Just to pick up there. When Judge Orie asked you whether they
25 were mercenaries, are you implying that there were people who were being
1 paid money to fight with the KLA or that they were people who were not
2 Kosovo Albanians who were volunteering?
3 A. The reason I'm hesitating, sir, is I can't remember specifically
4 whether we had intelligence as to whether they were mercenary troops,
5 i.e., being paid to fight, or whether they were just mercenaries who were
6 looking for another job to tide them over until yet another troubled area
7 erupted. So I can't specifically say they were being paid as mercenaries;
8 but as we are all well aware, there are people who travel around the world
9 going from trouble spot to trouble spot.
10 Q. Yes. Can I turn now to tab 24, please.
11 MR. EMMERSON: This is another document signed by Colonel
12 Lazarevic, Chief of Staff. It's dated the 15th of July, 1998, and it
13 needs a marked for identification number.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D77,
16 marked for identification.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. EMMERSON:
20 Q. And it's just to maintain the picture of consistency. If we look
21 at point 7, the following report is being sent to the commands of various
22 battalions: "From today on and for the next seven days, the KLA is
23 planning to attack the VJ in the Radonjic Lake sector, as the VJ's
24 deployment there is preventing them from achieving their aims."
25 You see that?
1 A. I do, sir, yeah.
2 Q. Thank you very much.
3 Tab 25, please.
4 MR. EMMERSON: This needs to be admitted under seal, not shown to
5 the public, and given a marked for identification number.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D78,
8 marked for identification, under seal.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
10 MR. EMMERSON:
11 Q. Again, I think this is a situation report dated the 30th of July.
12 Is that correct?
13 A. That's the date on the document, sir, yes.
14 Q. And, in the summary, there's a description of various matters
15 which are the content of the report, including the attack that you had
16 witnessed from the Lake Radonjic area to various villages, which we
17 discussed when you last came to give evidence. And I think we looked at
18 this document very briefly then in order to fix the date of that four-hour
19 shelling operation that you witnessed.
20 I just want to look at one or two other aspects of it quickly.
21 The last sentence of the summary records, does it, the concern that was
22 mounting in your mind and that you were seeking to communicate to the
23 foreign office; namely: "How do Serb authorities explain wanton damage to
24 towns and villages." Is that correct?
25 A. That's correct, yeah.
1 Q. Generally speaking, as I said, we looked at this document before.
2 It describes, amongst other things, the four-hour shelling incident that
3 you witnessed. Is it right, Colonel Crosland, that you raised this with
4 General Ojdanic?
5 A. I think this is one of the instances that I raised with him, sir,
7 Q. And, again, is it right that you told him what you'd seen; namely,
8 four hours of direct and indirect fire on Junik, Prilep, Rznic, and
9 Glodjane, and told him that thought it had created a demonstrating
10 security and humanitarian situation? Do you remember telling him that?
11 A. I think I remember those phrases, sir, or similar to that was
12 used, yes.
13 Q. And did he agree with you?
14 A. I cannot remember, to be honest, sir, and I may have stated that
15 in one of my reports; if so, as I said before, I have no intention of
16 misleading the Court.
17 Q. You can't honestly remember now.
18 A. I've made so many statements.
19 Q. Yes, I understand. You don't remember what his reaction was when
20 you put this proposition to him, that this was disproportionate force?
21 A. I think and hoped that there'd been a growing awareness that the
22 continues massive damage being inflicted by security force operations
23 would eventually have to be called to order; and, therefore, one was
24 trying to warn them of the future dangers of this particular tactic. It
25 didn't seem to be taken onboard, as is evident, during the latter part of
2 Q. Yes. Can we look briefly at page 3. There are various
3 subparagraphs there, Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, and so forth. The first Bravo
4 refers to: "Wanton damage. Every village adjacent to both avenues into
5 Malisevo having suffered damage. Houses and businesses burning and
6 garages deliberately vandalized," and so forth, "crops and vineyards
7 burnt, some animals killed."
8 That's something you witnessed yourself?
9 A. Yes, that's correct; and as it says in Charlie, the troika group
10 of ambassadors were shown this area.
11 Q. Can I drop now to the next entry that says Charlie because I think
12 we start again at 7 Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, so just opposite the second
13 hole-punch. You witnessed, it seems, eight low-loaders carrying
14 bulldozers and earth-movers, travelling towards Pristina.
15 Did you come to understand what function bulldozers and
16 earth-movers had in the VJ military operations in Kosovo?
17 A. I think in many terms they were used to dig fairly instantaneously
18 fortifications for guns, artillery, not necessarily for, you know, totally
19 destructive means of bulldozing houses. So it was used as a defensive
20 mechanism, I mean, obviously they could be used in other ways as well.
21 Q. Did you ever see machinery of that kind being used in Prilep to
22 destroy the houses?
23 A. I don't recall that, sir, no.
24 Q. Very well. Very well. Can we go then, please, to tab 26.
25 MR. EMMERSON: This again needs to be admitted under seal, not
1 shown to the public, and given an MFI number.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D79,
4 marked for identification and under seal.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
6 MR. EMMERSON:
7 Q. I want to take this, if I may, fairly briefly. This is a
8 situation report dated the 7th of August. Is that correct?
9 A. That's the date on the document, sir, yeah.
10 Q. And you refer in the summary to: "Ongoing operations on Drenica,
11 Junik, and possibly Jablanica areas in villages north or south of the
12 Peje-Pristina road and the Gornji Klina-Rudnik-Rakos road wantonly
13 destroyed and there being increasing damage to infrastructure." And other
14 similar entries of the sort that we've seen in other documents.
15 I just want to be clear. This is the 7th of August. Were you
16 aware in the period around this time Serb troops were building up to take
18 A. I think, as I've indicated, sir, that it was fairly obvious that
19 some kind of major operation was probably being put together to carry out
20 various objectives.
21 Q. We've seen in this courtroom - and if it's appropriate during the
22 next break I might ask you to watch it, but I don't want to take up time
23 in court sitting times - a BBC broadcast of a piece of news footage of a
24 journalist in Gllogjan and Irzniq on the 11th and 12th of August.
25 MR. EMMERSON: It is, for the record, Exhibit D69.
1 Q. It shows paramilitary police having taken control of the area and
2 moving in. I just want to know whether you now recall there having been a
3 major sweep of Serbian paramilitary forces into that area in the first few
4 days of August; in other words, around about the 11th or 12th of August.
5 A. As I think I've tried to indicate, sir, the operations were
6 ongoing on both sides throughout the summer or the early spring, summer,
7 and autumn of 1998. I mean, to tie me down to a specific period, I mean,
8 the answer is no.
9 Q. I meant do you specifically recall in the first half of August
10 there being an occasion when Serb paramilitary troops overran the KLA
11 completely in Gllogjan and Irzniq and forced them out?
12 A. I can't recall that at the moment, sir. I may have made a report
13 to that effect. I don't know.
14 Q. I'm not trying to test your memory.
15 A. No.
16 Q. We can't find references to that in your report, even though there
17 is, I think, no dispute that it occurred ?
18 A. I think, if I may, forgive me for interrupting. As I said, I
19 think some reports were redacted and others were taken out by the Ministry
20 of Defence or whoever, Your Honours; and, obviously, I'm not aware of this
22 Q. So it's possible that there is a report dealing with that but that
23 it --
24 A. Yes, sir. There may well be gaps in the reports which I can't
25 answer that question, sir.
1 Q. I will ask in the next break if you could take five minutes of the
2 time to take a look at a piece of footage that we've all seen in court to
3 see if it refreshes your memory in any way, but I won't take any time on
4 that now?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The practicalities of that, Mr. Emmerson, need
6 some setting up, as well.
7 MR. EMMERSON: I've set that up already.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
9 Then, Mr. Re, I take it that there's no objection against D69
10 being viewed by the witness outside of court?
11 MR. RE: No, of course not.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. EMMERSON:
14 Q. Tab 27, if I may, please. This looks really at the other side of
15 what was going on as this military operation was being planned and put
16 into effect.
17 MR. EMMERSON: This is a document which does not need to be under
18 seal and can be shown, and it needs to be marked for identification.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D80,
21 marked for identification.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
23 MR. EMMERSON:
24 Q. This is a plan. Would you call this an OrdBat or not?
25 A. No, sir. I think it is just an handwritten commander's intent
1 signed by General Pavkovic, that this is what he is attempting to do.
2 Q. I see. So it's a general overview of the military objectives.
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. For the sake of the record it's dated the 1st of August, 1998?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And it refers to a meeting of the Joint Command for Kosovo and
7 Metohija held on the 31st of July, 1998, in Pristina at which it was
8 decided to "launch the third stage of the plan on the 2nd of August,
10 Now, first of all, were you then aware, that is to say, were you
11 at the time aware of the existence of the Joint Command?
12 A. I think, as I've said to the Court before, sir, it would have been
13 unusual if there had not been a Joint Command. They had not -- or the
14 authorities, excuse me, would not admit to a Joint Command.
15 Q. Do you know what is being referred to where Colonel Pavkovic
16 refers to the third stage of the plan?
17 A. No, I'm not. I'm obviously not aware of that.
18 Q. Very well, very well. And then if we look at the details it was
19 decided: "1. To crush the terrorist forces' centres in Likovac-Ovcarevo
20 villages and Jablanica and Glodjane villages and Smonica village by
21 mounting synchronised operations in the Drenica and Jablanica areas and
22 continuing the blockade of Junik and Jasic villages."
23 It instructs, "bring units to the OR," that is the waiting area,
24 "on the 1st of August and start operations early in the morning of the
25 2nd of August."
1 And then 2, a reference to exerting psychological pressure on
2 terrorist forces in Junik by continuing the blockade.
3 You see those entries, Colonel Crosland?
4 A. Yes. I do, sir, yeah.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, perhaps I'm unduly focusing on what's
6 handwritten and not.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Crosland, you said earlier that this is --
9 THE WITNESS: Command --
10 JUDGE ORIE: -- handwritten. Here, again, I think the only thing
11 that is handwritten is the date, and nothing else.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. It's the same pattern as we saw before.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
14 MR. EMMERSON:
15 Q. Do you know how whether an operation --
16 JUDGE ORIE: By the way, Mr. Emmerson, I have to correct myself.
17 Where I said it's the date, it's the number rather than the date because
18 the date is even typewritten. Please proceed.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Thank you very much.
20 Q. Do you know now whether at the beginning of August the operation
21 that you say was being planned to put into operation, do you know whether
22 steps were being taken at the beginning of August?
23 A. The only way I can answer that, partially, sir, is that in the
24 reports that were issued at the time, I think indicated a building of
25 pressure by the Serbian security forces to do something about the unstable
1 situation across KiM, Kosovo-Metohija, and the three areas mentioned are
2 arguably the three key areas within this area of operations.
3 Q. As I said to you a moment ago, there's no dispute, I think, and
4 there's certainly video film footage which you'll see, that by the 11th of
5 August Serb forces were closing in and had overrun Irzniq and Gllogjan.
6 The issue that I'm seeking to explore with you through these documents is
7 the process running up to that; in other words, the putting into effect of
8 that operation in the week or two beforehand.
9 Could we, to that end, please, look behind tab 28 just for a
10 moment, which is a report from Commander Cirkovic referring to the plan
11 that we've just been looking at apparently.
12 It's dated the 7th of August.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would receive number?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this would be Exhibit Number D81,
15 marked for identification.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. EMMERSON:
19 Q. I just want to look at paragraph 1 with you, please, on that
20 report. It's a report of the 7th of August to the Pristina Corps command.
21 "Between the 25th of July and the 6th of August, MUP units were
22 engaged by decision of the Joint Command for KiM along the following
23 axes," and then various axes are set out, including at the bottom the axis
24 from Gllogjan village to Jablanica village. Do you see that?
25 A. Yes, I do, sir.
1 Q. Now, of course, we discussed that earlier on, but the axis of
2 Gllogjan village to Jablanica village would take you across the area where
3 the canal flows, wouldn't it?
4 A. That's possible, sir, yes.
5 Q. And it appears, does it not, from this paragraph that by the 6th
6 of August, Serb MUP troops had already conducted operations along that
8 A. According to these documents, yes.
9 Q. Yes, assuming their authenticity. This is not a statement of
10 intent, but a statement of what had already happened. Do you agree?
11 A. Yes, I agree, sir. I mean, the first axis is along the major --
12 the main Pristina to Pec road --
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. -- and the second one, as you've stated, between Gllogjan and
15 Jablanica, which is a lot vaguer because the two are in a cross-country
16 area --
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. -- which could have gone across the canal area.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. It may not have done. I don't know.
21 Q. But the canal area does, does it not, flow right through the most
22 direct route from Gllogjan to Jablanica?
23 A. It does.
24 Q. That very axis?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Tab 29, please. This is a recorded decision by
2 Commander Lieutenant-General Pavkovic dated the 10th of August.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be number?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D82,
5 marked for identification.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. EMMERSON:
9 Q. My general suggestion, once we've looked at it, Colonel Crosland,
10 is that this is the final assault being planned on Gllogjan and Irzniq
11 after the area around had been secured over a day's proceedings. So we
12 had the position up to the 6th of August as the axes are cut off and the
13 Serb forces close in on the ground, and this I suggest is the document
14 which shows the final plan to move in on those two villages.
15 So number 1, Lieutenant-General Pavkovic says that he has decided:
16 "With MUP and VJ forces, smash the DTS stronghold and establish control
17 over the general Crnobreg village-Rznic village-Glodjane village-Gramocelj
18 village-Prilep village sector, using the main forces along the Donji Bites
19 village-Savar village-Saptej village-Glodjane village axis and the
20 Gramocelj village-Babaloc village-Rastavica village axis, and the
21 auxiliary forces along the Crnobreg village-Beleg village-Rznic village
22 axis and the Crnobreg village-Prilep village axis with the following aim:
23 By attack and active operations against the flank and the rear, with
24 diversionary operations and support from VJ combat groups, smash and push
25 back the DTS from Gjakove-Decane-Peje road, then destroy the enemy in the
1 general Crnobreg village-Rznic village-Glodjane village-Babaloc
2 village-Prilep village area, and after that capture this area and prevent
3 further operations by the DTS."
4 Do you see that paragraph?
5 A. Yes, I do, sir, yeah.
6 Q. This is an operation of encirclement, isn't it, of the kind you
7 were describing earlier on?
8 A. That appears to be the case, yes, sir, yeah.
9 Q. It's a process of approaching over land over a period of days in
10 the build-up to this, as we saw in the last document, followed by a final
11 assault as these forces close in for all sides, is it not?
12 A. That is what the stated aim of the general has decided, yes, sir.
13 Q. And if we just look at the tasks for the units there set out, can
14 you confirm, please, for us and for the record that BG-52 is tasked to
15 support the attack launched by the main forces of 2nd MUP detachment and
16 the SAJ and the PJP along the Glodjane to Saptej village axis?
17 A. That is what is written there.
18 Q. So that tells us, does it not, that there is a written instruction
19 being issued that the VJ should directly participate along with all three
20 units of the paramilitary police in the area closest to Gllogjan and the
21 axis between Gllogjan and its nearest neighbour village, Shaptej?
22 A. That's the order as written.
23 Q. And, similarly, we see a collaboration between the VJ, the MUP,
24 the SAJ, and the PJP along the axis from Gramaqel to Baballoq to
25 Rastavica, do you see that at 2.2?
1 A. That's correct, sir.
2 Q. And at 2.3 .1, between another VJ unit, the 1st Motorised Brigade,
3 attacking with the main forces along the Gramaqel to Gllogjan axis and
4 auxiliary forces along the Gramaqel to Dubrava to Shaptej axis?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Where -- in paragraph 1, it refers to main forces and auxiliary
7 forces, having read this document now and bearing in mind the heading:
8 "Combat disposition," which is subcategorised as attack forces, support
9 forces, active operations forces, and blockade forces, can you just help
10 me with one or two of those terms. What do you understand the distinction
11 in this battle plan between the main forces and the auxiliary forces to
13 A. I think, as you've just read out to the Court, sir, the attack
14 forces are -- units are indicated in paragraph 2; with paragraph 3 is fire
15 support; paragraph 4 is, again, combat support measures which are laid out
16 in detail --
17 Q. Yes?
18 A. -- intelligence support, engineering report, et cetera.
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Paragraph 5, logistical support and ammunition.
21 Q. What are blockade forces?
22 A. I would presume that they may well be forces that are put around
23 the around the outside to try and encircle any irregular forces that may
24 be in -- may be contained.
25 Q. So, again, it confirms the view that the rest of the documents
1 give us, that this was an encirclement operation of the kind you described
2 earlier on. Do you agree?
3 A. Yes. I think the geographical layout of the various axes would
4 indicate that, sir, yes.
5 Q. Yes. Thank you. Could we turn now to tab 30, please. This is a
6 document --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Before --
8 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.
9 JUDGE ORIE: -- you do so, Mr. Emmerson. D82 is Rule 65 ter
10 number 492. Under that number we find two documents which seems to be two
11 copies of the same document. Now, we also find translations. Let me
12 first say the one document starts with K022-8031 and continues until 8034.
13 The other one bears the number K035-6688 and continues until 6691.
14 Although these clearly are different versions of the same typewritten
15 document, the one - and that is the first one I mentioned - bears some
16 handwriting on it; whereas, the other one - that's the second I
17 mentioned - bears a stamp on the top of the first page.
18 Now, surprisingly, the translations are the same. One of the
19 translations just mentions the K022 series; whereas, the other translation
20 at the line at the bottom also mentions, apart from the K022 series, also
21 the K035 series I just mentioned.
22 The problem is that the translation being exactly the same as it
23 appears at first sight make reference to a handwriting which appears only
24 on the K022 version --
25 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- whereas, the K022 version also contains more
2 handwriting, which is not comprised in the translation, which is common to
3 both documents. The Chamber would very much like, unless there's any
4 specific reason to have the handwriting at least, should become clear -
5 I'm also of course addressing you, Mr. Re - that there would be only one
6 document and the one to be used.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: That is whether with or without handwriting, if
9 handwriting is relevant, of course, it should be the one with handwriting;
10 if relevant, then we could do without handwriting. And the translation
11 should not mention any handwriting text which does not appear on the
12 document; and if there's handwriting text on the document, it should cover
13 all the handwriting text.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
16 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.
17 Q. Could we turn just briefly behind tab 30 now. Tab 30 is P309 and
18 it's a document we've looked at fairly recently with another witness.
19 MR. EMMERSON: This is an ECMM report and ought to be not shown to
20 the public.
21 Q. And it shows the immediate aftermath of the operation that we have
22 just been seeing the plans for, and you can see in the first paragraph
23 there that under the headlines: "UCK strongholds in Glodjane and Rznic
25 And then under the heading, "Kosovo, main items," it says: "Team
1 Pec reported a heavy attack launched by the Serb artillery and 80 tanks
2 against Glodjane, Rznic, Prilep (17 kilometres south of Pec) on the 12th
3 of August. Glodjane and Rznic have been completely destroyed."
4 You see that?
5 A. I see that.
6 Q. Now, you, in fact, we know, went on the 8th of September to the
7 canal area along with, you described the organisation as KDOM. It may be
8 that the organisation that accompanied you was Team Pec of the ECMM, which
9 sometimes also described itself as KDOM. Does that sound right to you?
10 A. It may be correct, sir, yes.
11 Q. This pattern -- I'm sorry. Did I say Team Pec? I meant, for the
12 sake of the transcript, at line 23 of the transcript, I said, "Team Pec of
13 the ECMM." I should have said, "Team Prizren of the ECMM."
14 Does any of this jog your memory of this attack in the first half
15 of August?
16 A. I don't quite understand, actually, what the question is leading
18 Q. I'm just wondering whether looking at these materials in any
19 refreshes your memory about that part of the Serbian offensive that took
20 Irzniq and Gllogjan at that part of August.
21 A. I think I already stated that.
22 Q. Very well.
23 A. Forgive me if I'm not understanding.
24 Q. No, it's my fault I'm sure.
25 A. I don't quite understand where we're going because I stated on
1 several reports that when we were taken in to visit the site, that there
2 was heavy fighting still going on. Prilep was certainly very heavily
4 Q. Yes. I think we've talking -- I'm sorry, I think we're talking at
5 cross-purposes. You went in on the 8th of September and saw that
6 operation continuing, and I'm going to come to that when I ask you some
7 questions about the canal.
8 What this series of documents is referring to, and the film that
9 you'll see in the break, is an operation that had taken place a full month
10 before, in which that area had been brought under the control of the Serb
11 paramilitary police, and I wonder whether that jogs your memory in respect
12 of the fact that there had been such an operation a month before you went
13 there, as well as one that was continuing while you were there on the 8th
14 of September?
15 A. I think all I can repeat, sir, is that there were ongoing
16 operations throughout the entire time and one operation ran into the
18 Q. Very well.
19 A. But I don't think I can be any more helpful than that.
20 Q. Very well. The last document, then, I wanted to ask you about in
21 this series is behind tab 31, and it is a document dated the 18th of
23 MR. EMMERSON: That needs to be given an MFI number, and it is an
24 18th of August order of General Pavkovic's.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D83,
2 marked for identification.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
4 MR. EMMERSON:
5 Q. Colonel Crosland, the reason I was asking you those questions
6 about this month interval between these two offensives taking place on the
7 same two villages is related in part to this document. We see on the 18th
8 of August, look over the second page on page 2.
9 If you look at 3.9: "Withdraw the 52nd bvp/bomber regiment from
10 Radonjicko Jezero," that is the lake, "to the Kosovski Junaci barracks and
11 transfer the positions to MUP forces. The forces from the battalion in
12 the old barracks in Djakovica, the strength of one company, are to be on
13 stand-by to fight the DTS. Transfer artillery group 2 from Lake Radonjic
14 to the Pec garrison and organise the hardware. Give the troops a break
15 and then engage them by a separate order.
16 "Regulate the time of when the MUP is to take the positions and
17 the withdrawal of AG by a separate order."
18 Do you see that?
19 A. I see that, yes.
20 Q. And does that imply, given the knowledge that you had of the
21 deployments in the lake, that right in the middle of August the decision
22 is being taken to withdraw the VJ forces and to substitute them for
23 paramilitary police?
24 A. That is what is written in this particular document.
25 Q. Yes. Thank you. Well, that is the last in this series of
1 documents that I wanted to ask you about, and I now want to move on to ask
2 you some questions about your visit to the canal.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I don't know how Your Honour wants to plan the rest
4 of the morning. It would be an entirely convenient moment from my point
5 of view to take a break; and then as I indicated earlier on, Mr. Guy-Smith
6 and I have discussed cross-examination and we will be sure to have
7 concluded by quarter to 2.00 between the two of us.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do not mind whether we have a break now and
9 then have another time to go, or to have to break later.
10 MR. EMMERSON: From my point of view, it would be good to take the
11 break now and move on to a fresh topic after the break.
12 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have an early break and we'll resume at 25
13 minutes to 1.00.
14 --- Recess taken at 12.10 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.45 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.
17 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.
18 Can I indicate to Your Honours that Mr. Guy-Smith has been kind
19 enough to indicate to me and through me to Your Honours that he will have
20 few, if any, questions for this witness.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Just so that Your Honour sees the use of time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And we took a bit more time. We had to
24 deliberate on a certain issue during the break.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.
2 Q. Colonel Crosland, you had an opportunity briefly to look at the
3 BBC film footage from the 11th and 12th of August. Can I just ask you two
4 or three questions about it. First of all, I assume from the answers
5 you've given already that you do not recall having seen that piece of
6 broadcast footage at the time?
7 A. No, Your Honour. The scenes are only too reminiscent of what I
8 saw with my own eyes throughout the summer and autumn of 1998.
9 Q. Yes. Secondly, the Serbian ground troops that we see in that
10 piece of footage, which are described in the voice-over as paramilitary
11 police, are wearing two different kinds of uniform, a blue uniform often
12 with a jacket with ammunition clips in it and a camouflage uniform, and we
13 see a number of them with bandannas and so forth.
14 By this stage in the summer; in other words, by August, were the
15 various groupings sufficiently distinguishable for you to be able to tell
16 us from that observation who it was we were looking at; in other words,
17 which contingents it was in the village of Rznic and Gllogjan that are
18 shown in that film?
19 A. I would have thought they were mainly PJP and possibly JSO.
20 Q. Thank you. And finally this: We see some of the PJP or JSO
21 officers with a yellow ribbon tied to their shoulder, and we've had a
22 number of -- certainly one other explanation for what the significance of
23 that yellow ribbon is. Can I ask you, please, formally to confirm for the
24 record that the significance of the yellow ribbon is simply to prevent
25 blue on blue fire; in other words, to prevent Serbian paramilitaries from
1 shooting other Serbian paramilitaries?
2 A. It's certainly to prevent or to try and eradicate blue on blue
3 fire between forces, yes.
4 Q. Thank you very much. Now, I want then to move to the 8th of
5 September and to the occasion when you visited the canal. First of all,
6 can I ask you this: I think it's right, isn't it, that you were first
7 alerted to the fact that there was a site which was being described as a
8 mass grave site by KDOM. Is that correct or not?
9 A. I can't honestly remember --
10 Q. Very well.
11 A. -- Mr. Emmerson, whether it was KDOM or whether it was the local
12 MUP that came to us in where we were based at Djakovica at the time.
13 Q. As I said, I've said on many occasions, I'm not in any way trying
14 to test your memory here. Can we look behind tab 33 together, please,
15 which is the sitrep in which you deal with this.
16 MR. EMMERSON: It needs to be marked for identification, admitted
17 under seal and not shown to the public.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, that would be?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D84,
20 marked for identification and under seal.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
22 MR. EMMERSON:
23 Q. So this is your situation report for the 10th of September,
24 referring to, as we see just two-thirds of the way down the page, the --
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 MR. EMMERSON:
2 Q. -- referring to the Kosovo situation on the 8th and 9th of
3 September, 1998, and item 1: "Potential grave-site," and I'm just reading
4 this into the record, "two kilometres south-east of Irzniq" and then
5 there's a grid reference.
6 "Eight to 12 bodies seen Serbs claim 40 because 40 other people
7 are missing. Chinese rounds found in the area which would indicate UCK
8 responsibility. Autopsy to follow."
9 Now, pausing there for a moment. It might be easier before I ask
10 you any questions about that to turn to the passage in which this is dealt
11 with in more detail, and that's paragraph 5 over the page.
12 "Potential grave, at 081600B, September 1998, tour was called by
13 KDOM to meet ... at Djakovica in order to be escorted to the above site.
14 Tour was taken through Prilep and Irzniq, both villages totally gutted,
15 90," presumably 90 per cent, "of houses destroyed, and haystacks burning.
16 "Heavily armed MUP/PJP/SAJ with VJ, T55, and Praga in support.
17 MUP mortar line times 4 firing in support from Prilep. At," and then a
18 grid reference is given, "eight to 12 bodies were observed, some badly
19 decomposed, indicating approximately one month old, others were fresher in
20 water canal and appearing from earth on side of canal. Fifteen splash
21 marks seen on concrete side of drain indicating possible execution. No
22 details of who these people were was given. Autopsy to follow.
23 "Comment. Troops involved in this op were obviously still
24 conducting further ops and attempting to secure the area. They looked
25 tired and on edge."
1 Now, just having looked at that document again, there are various
2 questions I want to ask you about it, if I may, and about the events that
3 it describes.
4 First of all, I just want to come back to the description you give
5 there, and you've dealt with it in your evidence in chief so I won't take
6 a great deal of time over it, of what it was that you witnessed on the way
7 in to the area. Returning to the question that I began with, first of
8 all, does that refresh your memory as to whether it was, in fact, KDOM who
9 first involved you or brought this to your attention?
10 A. That's what is written there, sir, so that is what is correct.
11 Q. Do you remember whether you were told by any Serb official how
12 long before your visit the site had been discovered?
13 A. I don't recall any time-line, no.
14 Q. Was it your impression that you were being brought to the scene
15 immediately or soon after its purported discovery?
16 A. I think that appears to be a fair comment, yes.
17 Q. And before forensic teams had arrived; correct?
18 A. That I can't confirm, sir, because I don't know what their
19 forensic teams would be dressed in.
20 Q. Very well.
21 A. There were people there who appeared to be collecting evidence.
22 Whether they were forensically trained or not, I cannot confirm or deny.
23 Q. Very well. I don't wish to jump straight to the canal. I want to
24 ask you again about the operation on the way in. You told us, I think, in
25 your evidence in chief that there were some 300 or so forces, Serbian
1 forces, combined forces, involved in the ongoing operations that you
2 witnessed on the way in. That's 2971, line 12.
3 That's a large number of ground troops committed to this
4 operation. Was there any resistance taking place to the firing that you
5 saw in Prilep and in Irzniq? Was there anyone on the other side?
6 A. There was no return fire coming back, as far as I'm aware.
7 Q. And as well as burning and looting --
8 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.
9 Q. And as well as burning and looting, you described on various
10 occasions seeing shooting into houses in Prilep. Shooting with what?
11 Fire-arms or heavy weapons or tanks or what?
12 A. It was mainly, if I remember rightly, small-arms, automatic
13 rifles, and machine-guns, but it was quite clear that heavier weapons had
14 been used by the splash marks and other damage that had been inflicted on
15 these villages. But again, these villages, if I may say so, had been
16 under assault as we've heard on several occasions. So there was a
17 cumulative effect of damage.
18 Q. Well, that's really what I wanted to come to. Prilep, you say, I
19 think, was no more than 18 inches high. It had been flattened by then.
20 Is that right?
21 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
22 Q. But when you gave evidence about this in the --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, if you speak slower, then we don't have
24 to stop again and again. Please proceed.
25 MR. EMMERSON:
1 Q. When you gave evidence in the Limaj trial about this journey in -
2 this is transcript 1969, line 11 - you indicated, as I think you have on
3 other occasions, that you were aware as you saw this operation in Irzniq
4 that this was either the second or the third time that the JSO and SAJ
5 were - to use your words - clearing the village. In other words, you knew
6 that Irzniq had been overrun before?
7 A. That has happened, as I have indicated to the Court, across large
8 areas of Kosovo.
9 Q. Yes. I understand that. But it's very important just to focus in
10 on Irzniq for a moment because it is clear from your testimony I think
11 today, as well as in Limaj and in some of your statements, that when you
12 saw these operations taking place in Irzniq on the 8th of September, you
13 knew that this was not the first time that the paramilitary police had
14 overrun that village. Is that correct?
15 A. The reason for that statement, sir, is that at the -- on the main
16 road from Decani down towards Djakovica where the road from Prilep comes
17 in, there had been an MUP check-point for the majority of the summer --
18 Q. Mm-hmm.
19 A. -- which was attacked on many occasions from that area; and,
20 therefore, it's not surprising that the Serbian security forces would go
21 out and attempt to eradicate the problem.
22 Q. And launch military assaults on Irzniq, not simply Prilep, the
23 front line, if I may put it that way, but on Irzniq, which is why I think
24 you opted outside of the red line as a disputed area on your map. Is that
1 A. Yes. Prilep is literally within metres of the road.
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. And Irzniq is --
4 Q. A little further on.
5 A. -- a couple of kilometres further on. Again, within the area of
6 operations to try and produce some kind of "safe" zone for the Serbian
7 forces to patrol into.
8 Q. But it was your understanding that they would periodically launch
9 and overrun Irzniq over that summer period. Is that right?
10 A. That's correct, yes.
11 Q. And you know presumably that Irzniq runs immediately next to the
12 canal -- I'm sorry, runs immediately next to and through Irzniq?
13 A. The canal does?
14 Q. Yes.
15 A. If I remember rightly, the canal is a little bit further to the
16 east, but from what --
17 Q. I think if you trace it up --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
21 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
22 Q. I think you can see the canal on your plan, if you trace it up, it
23 runs pretty much directly into the village of Irzniq?
24 A. I was just looking at the grid reference given for the --
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. -- possible site, which is slightly east of Rznic, but the canal
2 goes on to the north and, therefore, close to Irzniq, yes.
3 Q. Yes. Are you able to give the Trial Chamber any sense of how many
4 times you would have expected or understood Irzniq to have been overrun in
5 that way?
6 MR. RE: I object to the question, "expected." On what basis can
7 the witness possibly --
8 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, I'll rephrase the question. It's a
9 perfectly legitimate objection.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
11 MR. EMMERSON:
12 Q. You've given evidence that it was your understanding that the Serb
13 forces would periodically launch and overrun Irzniq in that summer period
14 up to the time when you went to the canal on the 8th of September. Can
15 you give the Trial Chamber any further sense of what you would understand
16 by the word "periodically."
17 A. I think, Your Honours, it is quite clear from the operation orders
18 that have been produced as evidence that the Serbs had massive and capable
19 forces, well capable of mounting an operation off their main axis to cover
20 both Prilep and Irzniq at any time they chose. It's a question of whether
21 they wished to do so. And as I said, the situation became a tit-for-tat
22 operation where security forces would be shot at and killed on the main
23 road, and then the security forces would counter-attack in a variety of
25 That could be a more complicated and detailed operation or I
1 suspect the local commander could decide to take the initiative into his
2 own hand and attempt to follow-up terrorist activity by doing what we call
3 a clearing operation, which is literally a, as I stated, a clearing
4 operation. It does not necessarily mean that they hold the ground for any
5 length of time.
6 Q. No. But they would periodically gather a force and enter in as
7 far as Irzniq in order to clear the area of KLA concentration and push
8 back the threat to the main road?
9 A. I think that's what you're reading from one of my statements.
10 Q. Well, I'm summarizing.
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. But you would agree with that proposition?
13 A. Yes, I would, sir.
14 Q. I think, when you drove through Prilep and Irzniq, you were in
15 your red Land Rover Defender with a very big Union Jack clearly
16 identifying this convoy as a convoy of international diplomatic vehicles.
17 Is that correct?
18 A. That's as far as my memory recalls, sir, yes.
19 Q. Does it surprise you that these operations continued despite that
20 fact there was an international presence entering the area?
21 A. I think I made that statement in one of my previous statements,
23 Q. And it surprised you because what you were witnessing was grossly
24 disproportionate force, is that right, and you were surprised that would
25 be happening under the eyes and under the nose of international diplomatic
2 A. I think "surprise" was no longer a word one used. It was
3 unfortunately an all-too-regular occurrence, whether we witnessed it or
4 not. And one can understand the vehemence and the anger of security
5 forces when they lose people, as I have lost people to terrorist action.
6 That doesn't mean to say one in any way will condone what I've said many
7 times. It was extremely heavy-handed action, but again we have to deal
8 with the type of troops concerned and, as I say, the very vehement strife
9 between the Kosovo Albanian and the Serbian security forces.
10 Q. Can I put it this way and ask you to comment on this. Was your
11 surprise, as you put it earlier on, that this carried on despite the
12 presence of a diplomatic convoy driving through, does that reflect a sense
13 that really it was shocking that troops would be -- feel comfortable to
14 conduct that sort of operation before the eyes of international observers?
15 A. I think -- Sorry.
16 Q. Is that what you were trying to convey?
17 A. I think the point one was making was that despite, I hope, a fair
18 and accurate report on what the situation in general was, both Serbian
19 security forces and Kosovo Liberation Army, that people were still openly
20 flaunting -- you would hardly call it the Geneva Convention because it was
21 far from it.
22 Q. Thank you. Can I move on, please, to the canal itself and back to
23 your situation report. First of all, we can see in paragraph 5 and in the
24 last line of the first block of text that you were not given any
25 information on the identity of any of the individuals whose remains had
1 been seen in the canal area. You weren't given any identification
2 information. Is that correct?
3 A. No. All the Serbs I think indicated that -- I think these were
4 Serbian personnel.
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. But I think as I have said on many occasions, that could not be --
7 I could not confirm that --
8 Q. No.
9 A. -- because I am not a qualified coroner, et cetera.
10 Q. And they hadn't been identified, had they, or recovered at the
11 time you got there?
12 A. No. The bodies, as I indicated, sir, were still in the water or
13 where they lay.
14 Q. And nothing had been done, or you were certainly not shown or told
15 of anything that had been done, to remove, gather, or identify any of
16 those remains before your visit on the 8th of September?
17 A. There was no formal identification of the bodies by name or by
19 Q. They were just bodies at that stage?
20 A. They were just bodies in the concrete canal area.
21 Q. And you, I think, were staying at Hotel Pashtrik at the time,
22 weren't you?
23 A. That was correct, sir.
24 Q. Now, later on in time, a makeshift mortuary was put in the
25 basement of Hotel Pashtrik, but there certainly wasn't a makeshift
1 mortuary there when you were there on the 8th, was there?
2 A. I don't know, sir.
3 Q. None of the Serbian authorities pointed your attention to a
4 mortuary in the basement of the Hotel Pashtrik?
5 A. No.
6 Q. No. If we look at paragraph 1, that is the summary. Despite the
7 fact that you were only being shown eight to 12 bodies, you note that the
8 Serbs were claiming that there were 40 because 40 other people were
9 missing. Is that how you recall it?
10 A. That's what is written there, sir, and these reports were dictated
11 into a Dictaphone and then typed back when I got back to Belgrade. So
12 they are the initial, if you like, eye-witness report and as accurate as I
13 can, you know, recall it at the time.
14 Q. Before we go on to a little more detail on what you actually saw,
15 could you just turn behind tab 38 for a moment. This is the Joint Command
16 minutes that we looked at when you were here last.
17 MR. EMMERSON: And that document needs to be marked for
19 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D85,
21 marked for identification.
22 MR. EMMERSON:
23 Q. Could you turn to page -- if you look at the numbers at the bottom
24 of the page at the right-hand side, very small, page 86 of 164. Can you
25 see that we're looking on page 86 at a session of the Joint Command for
1 the 4th of September, 1998, at 8.00 p.m.
2 Do you see that?
3 A. I do, sir, yeah.
4 Q. So that's four days before you arrived at the canal; correct?
5 A. Correct, sir.
6 Q. If we look at the following page, page 87, under Mr. Gajo, I think
7 you told us before that you did not know who David Gajic was. I think
8 that's a reference to David Gajic, who we see from the minutes at page 2,
9 is, in fact, the assistant chief of the RDB, the state security. Do you
10 see that entry under Mr. Gajo?
11 A. I do, sir, yes.
12 Q. The RDB, the state security, I mean, that would be the branch of
13 the Serbian security apparatus that would engage in undercover clandestine
14 operations, isn't it?
15 A. That could be one of their task, yes.
16 Q. Counter-intelligence operations of a variety of different kinds,
17 which could involve sabotage or it could involve the commission of crimes
18 in order to attribute responsibility to others and so on. That would be
19 located within the RDB, that kind of counter-terrorism activity.
20 A. They would probably have that area of business, yes.
21 Q. If you look at the fifth bullet point which Mr. Gajo is informing
22 the Joint Command of on the 4th of September, "In the village."
23 I'm quoting: "In the village of Ratis, near Decani, there is a
24 mass graveyard (34 Serbs, three Romanies, three Albanians)."
25 Now, Colonel Crosland, can you help us at all as to how the Joint
1 Command could conceivably have known the numbers and ethnicities of the
2 remains that had not been recovered until after your visit on the 8th?
3 A. I obviously can't comment, sir, because that is what is written
4 down here in a document that I have not seen before today, and I would
5 respectfully suggest that Mr. Gajo is the person to be questioned.
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. But it's a fairly damning indictment if it is correct.
8 Q. Rather surprises you from the picture that was presented to you, I
10 A. Sadly within this time-frame, one was not surprised by the various
11 turns that events took.
12 Q. Well, I wanted to ask you just a little bit more what you mean by
13 that, because I think you have been asked in the past whether in your
14 view - and this is a question the Prosecution asked you - whether in your
15 view, it is possible that the Serbs could have been involved in planting
16 bodies there in order to up the propaganda value of this find and to blame
17 it on the KLA in order to discredit them in the eyes of the international
19 Now, please, I'm not asking you to express an opinion on whether
20 you think that is what happened here or not because, as you will see from
21 that document, obviously you're not in possession of all the relevant
22 information that the Trial Chamber is or will be in possession of. But
23 when answering that question, you said to the Prosecution that you could
24 not exclude the possibility that there could have been deliberate
25 manipulation of the crime scene because "the Serbs were not beyond dirty
1 tricks for propaganda purposes. They had done it before."
2 And I just want to ask you about that sentence. What did you mean
3 by that when you said: "The Serbs were not beyond dirty tricks for
4 propaganda purposes. They had done it before"?
5 A. As I said, over the period of time in Kosovo, there were many acts
6 of violence that were permeated by both sides, and there was a continuing
7 and ongoing propaganda war, is probably the best word of explaining it.
8 And that is why on my statement, which you've just gone through, I said a
9 proper and authorised autopsy must be carried out to provide the necessary
10 evidence to substantiate the initial claim by the Serbs that this was a
11 KLA massacre area. I think I made that clear in my statements.
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. I think even, either verbally or otherwise, warned my ambassador
14 and other people that this whole incident may not be as is being shown by
15 the Serb.
16 Q. That there could have been manipulation of this crime scene, that
17 was a warning you relayed to the ambassador because of experience of
18 Serbian activities in the past. Is that right?
19 A. Well, as I said, sir, both sides were, let's put it, economical
20 with the truth.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, the dirty tricks, as such, could you
22 help us where to find it?
23 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm going to -- may I come back to Your
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. EMMERSON: It's paragraph 19, but I've lost the starting
2 point, so I will come back to that. May I make it absolutely clear, I'm
3 not asking the witness to express a viewpoint.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
5 MR. EMMERSON:
6 Q. What I want to know, Colonel Crosland, when you say the Serbs had
7 done it before, can you give us other examples of where there had been
8 deliberate manipulation that you were thinking of, either before or after,
9 in order to fabricate things for propaganda purposes?
10 A. Your Honours, with respect to the Court, I cannot recall. There
11 were instances, as I indicated, on both sides that the initial evidence
12 was not what was purported to be at the scene of the crime.
13 Q. Very well.
14 A. And, with great respect, I don't think I can go any further than
16 Q. Very well.
17 A. But I've told you that I myself said that we need to proceed with
18 caution before we make an allegation; and in my opinion with the
19 operation, the Serbian operation, going on around this area, then it
20 behooved the Serbian security forces to provide an unbiased autopsy report
21 to substantiate their claim.
22 Q. And you asked to be provided with that I think yourself, did you
24 A. I think I've made that statement before, yes.
25 Q. I think your essential position was that you told the Serb
1 authorities that if they wanted to expect the international community to
2 take this at face value, they would need to provide to the international
3 community evidence of a "clean-gloves" forensic investigation. That was
4 your expression I think?
5 A. If that is what was written in the report, that is exactly what I
6 was trying to say now.
7 Q. And you never received any such information?
8 A. Not that I'm aware of, no.
9 Q. No. Can you just turn for a moment behind tab 35 for a moment --
10 35A, which is Exhibit D45. It's a photograph of two bodies floating in
11 the canal?
12 A. I'm sorry, sir, did you say 35?
13 Q. It should be tab 35, yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: That's supposed to be D31, isn't it, Mr. Emmerson.
15 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. You're quite right.
16 JUDGE ORIE: That's at least what your list tells us.
17 MR. EMMERSON: D31, and it's tab 35A.
18 JUDGE ORIE: No. 35 corresponds with D31, according to your list;
19 and 35A corresponds with D45. The first being described as photograph of
20 floating bodies; whereas, the second is photograph of bodies.
21 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Well, I apologise, because there's a slight
22 difference on my bundle but I've resolved it now.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And perhaps we could look at what the witness
24 sees so we can verify it.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I can see from where I'm standing that the
1 witness is looking at tab 35, which is D31.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But it could be shown on the screen as well.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
5 Q. Now, you've seen that photograph or a photograph very similar to
6 that before, have you not?
7 A. I have, sir.
8 Q. And those two sets of remains that we see in the water there, are
9 they not broadly in the position where you saw two bodies floating on the
10 8th of September?
11 A. Yes. Being under oath, there were bodies in the canal.
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Now, I don't really think I can be more specific than that to be
14 honest at this late stage.
15 Q. I understand that, and I don't want to press you for more detail
16 than you feel comfortable giving. But it is quite important that we get
17 as much information as you feel that you can reliably give, because I
18 don't know whether you were aware of this but these two bodies never
19 showed up on any of the forensic reports prepared by the Serbian forensic
21 And I wanted to ask you whether the bodies that you saw in the
22 canal when you arrived there, whether there was any serious attempt being
23 made to retrieve them out of the water?
24 A. When we arrived on the afternoon of this date, there were bodies,
25 as I said in my initial report, between six to 12, some in the water and
1 some on the banks of the canal. How many were actually in the water at
2 this stage --
3 Q. You don't know.
4 A. -- it's impossible to say.
5 Q. Well, that's a very fair answer. Some were in the water. I think
6 earlier on in your testimony you thought that there were certainly three
7 bodies in the concrete section of the canal in the water and one lower
8 down in the natural area of canal in the water. That was your
9 recollection when you gave evidence in chief, but let us not press you for
10 information that you're not comfortable providing.
11 But can I just ask you this: In your situation report, and
12 obviously you're not a pathologist, you've seen a fair number of dead
13 bodies in your time, Colonel Crosland?
14 A. Sadly, yes.
15 Q. In your estimate, the bodies you saw, rather like these two
16 bodies, were bodies that were anything up to one month old, could be less,
17 but anything up to one month old. Is that right?
18 A. That is what I have written. I can see your point and where you
19 are coming from; but with the conditions prevailing at the time, the heat,
20 bodies can deteriorate very rapidly.
21 Q. Yes. No. I'm not coming from anywhere. I'm simply clarifying
22 with you. Of course, they could be more recent than one month old?
23 A. Yeah.
24 Q. But from what you saw, the bodies you saw looked as if the oldest
25 of them was about a month old?
1 A. That's what I've written in the report and that is what, in
2 considering, when I wrote the report, would be as accurate as I could --
3 as someone familiar with bodies, sadly, but obviously not an expert in
4 that respect.
5 Q. No, of course not. But that would take us roughly to the
6 offensive of Gllogjan and Irzniq that you looked at on the BBC film,
7 couldn't it?
8 A. It could take you back to that, yes.
9 Q. You picked up some ammunition and you identified it as Chinese
10 ammunition, and you made --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, before you continue, could you give me
14 the source of the number of bodies. I'm looking at page 2972 at this
16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I can.
17 JUDGE ORIE: There I find not exactly what --
18 MR. EMMERSON: 2972, line 10, and then there's further evidence at
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I might have missed that. Let me just have a
22 MR. EMMERSON: 2977, line 8, down to 2978, line 6.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I'll read it. Please proceed.
24 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
25 Q. You collected a handful of shell-casings which had Chinese writing
1 on them and appeared to you to be Chinese ammunition. Is that correct?
2 A. That's correct, sir, yes.
3 Q. And your initial thought was that that was an indication of KLA
4 involvement in the action at the canal. Is that right?
5 A. It was widely thought that part of the ammunition involved by the
6 KLA, and remembering the Balkans is awash with ammunition from all parts
7 of the world, that this could indicate - and I think I did say could
8 indicate --
9 Q. Yes, you did.
10 A. -- KLA activity.
11 Q. And I think at one point, in one of your witness statements, you
12 also indicated that it wasn't known, at least as far as you were
13 concerned, that the Serb forces were either using Chinese ammunition or
14 issuing Chinese ammunition to their forces. That was not a fact that was
16 A. That was not a fact that was known.
17 Q. No. Just one point of clarification for a moment. You were --
18 you sent the ammunition casings back to London, and you got a response.
19 Now, you were asked about this in chief, and I think it may be a slip of
20 the tongue in your reply. But at 2973 of the transcript, you were asked
21 about your results and you said: "I think, as far as I recall, it came
22 back that they were Albanian, it was Albanian ammunition, which was no
23 great surprise."
24 Now, did you mean to say Albanian or did you mean to say Chinese?
25 A. I think both could have --
1 MR. RE: That's not what it says. It says at page -- the answer
2 was:" I think. I can't remember now. It was that the ammunition had
3 come from Albania, which is of no great surprise."
4 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
5 MR. RE: That's not the answer.
6 MR. EMMERSON:
7 Q. Let's just clarify the position, because it was Chinese round. I
8 just want to be clear. When it came back from the forensics in London,
9 what were you being told that it was Chinese ammunition or were you being
10 given any specific information about where it could be sourced to?
11 A. If I remember correctly, sir, that it was Chinese ammunition that
12 appeared to have come from Albania, bearing in mind that Albania had
13 imploded or exploded in 1997.
14 Q. Very well.
15 A. Now, that may well be defaulted by other people, but that's as far
16 as I can remember.
17 Q. Have you ever heard - and you talked about propaganda activities
18 by the Serbs in order to engage in dirty tricks to implicate the other
19 side in the conflict, and I asked you some questions about that - have you
20 ever heard of the Serb forces being issued with Chinese rounds in order to
21 attribute crimes to the KLA during the conflict?
22 A. I don't recall that, no.
23 Q. Can we have a look, please, behind tab 34.
24 MR. EMMERSON: This is a document that needs to be marked for
1 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D86,
3 marked for identification.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
5 MR. EMMERSON:
6 Q. As you can see, Colonel Crosland, this is an ambush plan. It is
7 authored by Lieutenant-Colonel Djordjevic, and it relates to an ambush
8 that is planned to take place in January 1999. And if one looks towards
9 the top, one sees the involvement of the department of state security in
10 this operation and that it is to be directed at terrorists located in
11 Jablanica and, amongst other places, Glodjane. Can you see that?
12 A. Yeah. Yes, I can see that.
13 Q. And you see under heading, "Method of execution," it's an
14 operation that's going to be executed by the PJP combining or comprising
15 particular ambush positions. Do you see that?
16 A. Yes, I do, sir.
17 Q. And then if we turn to page 3, can you see: "Preparations for
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. And I'll read it into the record: "On the 23rd of January, 1999,
21 the platoon leader and the squad leaders of PJP, together with a sector
22 leader from the Celopek PO, shall make a reconnaissance of the area and
23 the ambush locations. The platoon leader of PJP shall provide grenade
24 launchers and ammunition manufactured in China. While immediately prior
25 to the execution of the task, he shall inspect the forces and acquaint
1 them with the Plan and specific tasks."
2 Do you see that?
3 A. I do, sir.
4 Q. A little further down under, "Equipment, weapons, and MTS:
5 "Members of the PJP shall wear green camouflage uniforms,
6 heavy-duty boots, bullet-proof vests, be equipped with long-barrelled
7 weapons with two BKs." Do you see that, two BKs, that is two combat
8 ammunition sets? Do you see that?
9 A. I do.
10 Q. "While each squad should have one hand-held launcher and 30
11 bullets manufactured in China."
12 Colonel Crosland, can you help us as to any legitimate reason why
13 ambush squads of that kind should be issued both with two combat
14 ammunition sets and with 30 bullets where the country of manufacture is
15 specified as China?
16 A. It seems very odd. The only person who can answer that is
18 Q. It seems very odd because specifying Chinese ammunition would be
19 picked up by someone like you as a sign that the KLA was responsible.
20 Isn't that right?
21 A. It could well be used as an indicator, yes, as I've already said.
22 Q. And was used by you, entirely properly, as an indicator at the
23 canal site. Is that correct?
24 A. That's correct, sir, yes, as stated.
25 Q. Would this fall within that general rubric of dirty tricks that
1 you were --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. EMMERSON:
5 Q. Could this fall within that general rubric of dirty tricks that
6 you were referring to in the witness statement where you commented that
7 such things had been done before?
8 A. It would seem fairly effective evidence to that fact, yes.
9 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. For Your Honour, that is paragraph 19 of the
10 June 2006 statement.
11 Q. I have just one or two further questions, if I may, and on other
13 First of all --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, again, the abbreviation MTS appears,
15 which seemed to be unclear formerly and had not been explained by the
16 interpreters. I would suggest to you to seek verification of the
17 following suggestion that it stands for "materijalno tehnicka sredstva,"
18 which would be kind of a general expression for military equipment. I'm
19 not an expert. I didn't hear it from an expert, but it was a suggestion
20 made which perhaps is worthwhile to verify.
21 MR. EMMERSON: I'm very grateful, and we will.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
23 MR. EMMERSON:
24 Q. I want just -- in the few minutes remaining, I just want to ask
25 you one or two other questions.
1 First of all, you gave evidence in chief about the date when you
2 first met Ramush Haradinaj in Gllogjan, and I just want to see if I can
3 explore the date with you, because when first asked about this you said
4 that without reference to a contemporary report of yours, you couldn't
5 remember the date.
6 You may remember that it came up that none of us actually had a
7 contemporary report from you recording that first meeting. It may be one
8 of the documents that hasn't been provided. But in the absence of a note,
9 you were asked by Mr. Re to approximate when it was that the first meeting
10 took place, and your estimate at that point was that you thought it might
11 be about March or April.
12 And I want just to see if I can understand, in the absence of your
13 notes, the degree of approximation that was involved in those dates; in
14 other words, I want to try, if I can with you, to establish what the
15 margin for error is on the dates you gave us. I appreciate that in doing
16 so you can't remember the exact dates, so what I'm looking for a
17 parameters of the approximation.
18 First of all, can we take it for certain that your first meeting
19 with Ramush Haradinaj was before your visit to the canal?
20 A. That's correct, sir.
21 Q. Your approximation was March or April. Could it have been May?
22 A. It may well have been, sir. As I say, life has moved on since
23 then and I'm afraid details like that escape me.
24 Q. That's what I need to understand. I'm not putting a particular
25 date to you, but could it have been as late as June or July?
1 A. No. I don't think so, no.
2 Q. I want to look, if I can, at tab 21 in the bundle to see if that
3 helps you. It doesn't tell us when this meeting happened. It might tell
4 us whether or not it had happened by the 17th of June at least.
5 JUDGE ORIE: May I take it that it's to be assigned an exhibit
6 number under seal?
7 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, exhibit number under seal.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D87,
10 marked for identification and under seal.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
12 MR. EMMERSON:
13 Q. It's only going to take me -- there's just one passage I wanted to
14 take you to. Tab 21. Do you see paragraph 4, you refer to certain events
15 in Malisevo and then the main road; and then about five lines down, there
16 is a sentence that reads: "The area around Glodjane east of Decani may
17 also be under KLA control, but is not accessible to foreigners."
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Yes, I see that.
20 Q. That was the 17th of June. Do you think it's possible -- I'm
21 sorry. I've given you the -- just check if I've got the right date. 23rd
22 of June, I apologise, that was the 23rd of June. Can I correct the
23 transcript, please. Tab 21 is the 23rd of June. Does that assist?
24 Because if you were saying then that you didn't know whether Gllogjan
25 Glodjane was at that point under KLA control because it was inaccessible
1 to foreigners, I mean, might that be an indication that you hadn't, in
2 fact, met Mr. Haradinaj at that time in Glodjane?
3 A. No, sir. First of all, this telegram is signed by David Landsman,
4 who is the deputy head of mission and is, I would suggest, a political
5 comment on the KLA control.
6 Q. Very well.
7 A. So I'm afraid I can't agree with your assessment on that.
8 Q. Very well, very well. You thought when you gave evidence in chief
9 that at the time of the first meeting, Mr. Haradinaj was what you
10 described as I think commander of the Dukagjin area, and I'm going to put
11 to you: We've seen documents in this case from the KLA side, the
12 authenticity of which are not in dispute, which show Mr. Haradinaj being
13 elected as commander of the Dukagjini Plain on that very day, the 23rd of
15 So what I'm trying to explore with you is whether at the time of
16 your first meeting you were in a position to describe his role within any
17 formal organisational structure or simply had an impression of him as a
18 local leader?
19 A. The only way I can answer that, sir, is that in various statements
20 I have made, I indicated that other intelligence sources were putting
21 together a picture of the possible organisation of the KLA from external
22 sources. Those of us who were working within the province of Kosovo were
23 attempting to add, as everyone does in an intelligence-gathering
24 operation, pieces of information that may or may not have been confirmed.
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. I really can't, in all honesty, be more specific than that.
2 Q. No, well that's what I wanted to establish. How broad were the
3 parameters of uncertainty. I think the intelligence document you're
4 referring to was a British military intelligence OrdBat, which you
5 referred to in the past as a guesstimate?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And that was produced sometime in the middle of the summer, wasn't
9 A. If you say so, sir, yes. I'm sorry. I can't remember that.
10 Q. Very well. Two other short questions before quarter to, if I may.
11 First of all, in the statement you made in March of this year, you
12 said that: "In the early part of 1998, the KLA as a whole was not
13 particularly well-organised. At that stage, the KLA was more locally
14 focused." And I just want to ask you what that expression "locally
15 focused" meant.
16 A. I think what I was trying to portray was the picture of
17 intelligence that we were putting together in what was a very difficult
18 and demanding situation, and that the areas that then had been engaged by
19 the Serbian security forces; namely, the Drenica and the western parts of
20 Kosovo, drew our attention in particular to those areas. Therefore, one
21 was attempting to put some kind of formation and characters to various
22 positions that they may or may not have held.
23 Q. Yes. Well, that was the next question I was going to ask you, and
24 the final one. In a statement that you made in June 2006, you said this -
25 and I'll just quote the passage - "It seemed like the ranks and hierarchy
1 of the KLA might have been just for show, to create a semblance of
2 organisation and depth to us internationals."
3 Can I ask you, please, shortly just to explain what you meant by
5 A. I think on those occasions when we saw more formed bodies of KLA
6 around in Malisevo or wherever, then for propaganda purposes, maybe, they
7 would, as any organisation would do, they would put on a show to show that
8 they were perhaps more organised than inwardly they were.
9 Q. We've seen a document from the 23rd of June, for example, and it
10 is only an example, that ascribes to a particular individual, the function
11 of being in charge of atomic, biological, and chemical defence within the
13 A. Well, I sincerely hope he wasn't.
14 Q. Is that the sort of rank for show you have in mind?
15 A. No. Being serious, the intelligence organisations need to try and
16 brief their seniors on what the potential threat of that particular
17 organisation may be; and therefore, sensible - and I would respectfully
18 submit to the Court that nuclear, chemical, biological warfare was not a
19 sensible statement - the more sensible approach was to try and ascertain
20 what the capabilities of this organisation was.
21 Therefore, we would look at it and try and piece together the
22 intelligence picture to provide a realistic without over-egging their
23 ability, but at the same time trying to make it clear to the international
24 community that the Serbs were possibly facing a serious problem --
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. -- which, you know, has accrued.
2 Q. Yes.
3 A. So one, I think, would hope that our intelligence assessments were
4 both logical and correct and sensible.
5 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I'm sorry, Mr. Re wants to raise something.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
7 MR. RE: Just a clarification, the transcript on page 3745
8 actually says: "Appointed head of biological and chemical defence."
9 Mr. Emmerson was reading from a particular document. There was no mention
10 of nuclear or atomic.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Two translations. I didn't use the word nuclear,
12 atomic, biological, and chemical. There were two translations of that
13 document because there were two sets of minutes for that meeting. I think
14 Mr. Re will find - I may be the one who's in error - but I suggest that
15 I'm not the one who is wrong. So we can check it.
16 May I indicate, Your Honour, that I've run over by five minutes
17 I've got five minutes literally left. I won't propose to do it today but
18 could I trespass on your patience for five minutes in the morning?
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, how much time would you need?
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think quite realistically, and I will be
21 reviewing the transcript, I believe I will be asking, probably, no
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: But if I'm asking any questions --
25 JUDGE ORIE: If that estimate would change, would you please
1 inform us.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Informally, because whether or not five more minutes
4 will be granted to Mr. Emmerson, may also depend on what your intentions
5 are, since it has been again and again said to us your estimate for today
6 was a combined estimate of you and Mr. Emmerson. So, therefore, if you
7 would like to put questions to the witness tomorrow, then we'd like to
8 know how much time that would need and we have in the back of our mind
9 that we have to decide on the request of Mr. Emmerson to grant him another
10 five minutes.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Why don't I do this at this time because I've been
12 going through those areas that --
13 JUDGE ORIE: The other Trial Chamber is waiting, Mr. Guy-Smith,
14 and we take it that you have serious reasons to do it as you do it.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Fine.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 Then, Mr. Crosland, we finish for the day. Even in view of what
18 happened over the last two or three minutes, you don't have to be afraid
19 that it would more than a part of tomorrow's session. Travelling back and
20 forth is not something that the Chamber would like you to do. I'd like to
21 instruct you not to speak with anyone about the testimony given until now
22 and still to be given tomorrow.
23 We stand adjourned. We'll resume tomorrow, 24th of May, 9.00,
24 same courtroom.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.49 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 24th day of
2 May, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.