1 Monday, 18 June 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 3.01 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
7 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number
9 IT-04-84, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Since there are no procedural issues raised, may I take it,
12 Mr. Re, that you are ready to call your next witness, who is in the
14 MR. RE: Indeed, Your Honour. I call Mr. Jose Antonio Lorenzo
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Re.
17 Mr. Quiroz, before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of
18 Procedure and Evidence require you to make the solemn declaration that
19 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The
20 text is now handed out to you by the usher. I invite you to make the
21 solemn declaration.
22 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the
23 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Quiroz. Please be seated. You'll
25 first be examined by Mr. Re, who's counsel for the Prosecution.
1 WITNESS: JOSE QUIROZ
2 Examination by Mr. Re:
3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Quiroz. Your name is Jose Antonio Lorenzo
4 Quiroz. Is that correct?
5 A. That's correct.
6 Q. Is it Mr. Lorenzo Quiroz, Mr. Quiroz or Mr. Lorenzo?
7 A. It's Mr. Lorenzo Quiroz.
8 Q. Your date of birth is the 29th of October, 1975.
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. You were an investigator at the ICTY from September 2003 until
11 July 2005. Is that right?
12 A. That is correct.
13 Q. Before that, where did you work?
14 A. I was working in Spain. Previously I had been with the United
15 Nations mission in East Timor, working as an investigator for the serious
16 crimes unit.
17 Q. Were you a police investigator in Spain?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But you now work at the International Criminal Court.
20 A. Yes, that is correct.
21 Q. Just tell the Trial Chamber briefly what the extent of your role
22 was in the investigations in this case.
23 A. When I first arrived here at the Tribunal, I was assigned to a
24 team which investigated the crimes that were committed in the territory of
25 Kosovo, and particularly by the KLA leadership.
1 Q. Your duties include interviewing witnesses.
2 A. Yes, they would include interviewing the witnesses, and suspects
3 as well.
4 Q. In Kosovo?
5 A. In Kosovo and in other theatres.
6 Q. When you did that, did you take interpreters with you?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 Q. What was your role in the compilation of photo identification
10 A. I was tasked to compile photo-boards, and for this I basically
11 followed the standard operational procedures. I took eight photographs
12 from a collection which we had which was obtained through an international
13 organisation. Basically it was a compilation of the Kosovo Protection
14 Corps' database, and from there I selected photographs which were as close
15 as possible to those of the suspects that had been identified at that
17 Q. The international organisation, was that in Kosovo, the one that
18 provided the photographs to the Office of the Prosecutor?
19 A. I believe so. I was not involved in the collection, but from
20 review -- it was in our database and I believe it was two investigators
21 that were prior to me working at the organisation that had collected those
22 from Kosovo.
23 Q. You said you took eight. How did you find the eight?
24 A. The first step I took was to obtain a photograph of the suspect,
25 and then I went through both the electronic copy, which we had, and a
1 print-out copy of the photographs and looked for pictures that were
2 similar in all aspects in that the person in the photograph was as closely
3 as possible -- looked as closely as possible to the suspects, and with
4 similar backgrounds, if possible, and same size, same postures. Usually
5 the photographs were from shoulder up, passport-type, I would say.
6 Q. Approximately how many photographs do you remember or do you think
7 that you looked at in this process of compiling these photo-boards?
8 A. There were thousands. Thousands of photographs.
9 Q. How long did it take you to do it?
10 A. I cannot say exactly, but it took several weeks.
11 Q. Who actually put the photographs onto the boards?
12 A. I downloaded electronic versions of the photographs that were
13 available and put them on a layout of an A4 paper, laid horizontally and 4
14 and 4, so it would be a total of eight photographs. I did the digital
15 part of that. I later sent that to the mapping and printing section of
16 the OTP for further editing. So the backgrounds would be the same and any
17 marks that were on the photographs would be eliminated and try to make
18 them as similar as possible.
19 Q. How many photo-boards did you compile in the sense of how many
20 boards containing suspects were there?
21 A. I believe six. I could name them. That will probably be easier
22 if I name them.
23 Q. Please.
24 A. I compiled one for the defendant here, Ramush Haradinaj; for his
25 two brothers, Mr. Daut Haradinaj -- one of his other brothers, I believe
1 it's Shkelzen Haradinaj. Excuse my pronunciation. For the other
2 defendants, Lahi Brahimaj. For Alush Agushi, and Pjeter Shala, I believe.
3 Q. What about Nazmi Brahimaj?
4 A. As well.
5 Q. What about Idriz Balaj, also known as Toger?
6 A. I did not compile that one. I was involved in -- that was
7 compiled by another investigator, who sent the electronic copy to me which
8 I forwarded to the mapping section, printing and mapping.
9 Q. Who was that investigator?
10 A. I believe it was Pekka Havarinen.
11 Q. You said you put eight photographs on a board. How many
12 variations were there of each of the eight photographs, or eight sets
13 containing one suspect?
14 A. As I said, I sent these photographs to the mapping and printing
15 section. I never indicated to them which one of the photographs was the
16 suspect and I just asked them to print out three different copies -- once
17 they were adjusted, to print out three different sets with all the
18 photographs scrambled. On some occasions I had to send the board back
19 because the photographs were scrambled but the suspect's photo remained in
20 the same spot, so I had to ask for that one to be changed.
21 Q. I'm going to show you some photographs, starting with 65 ter
22 Exhibit 1135.
23 MR. RE: And for the court officer, 1136, 1138, 11 -- I'm sorry,
24 did I say 7? 1137, 1138, 1139, 1140, and 1141, so if those could be shown
25 in that order, please, starting with 1135. All right. Could you please
1 go to the next page.
2 Q. Is that a photo-board in relation to Alush Agushi that you
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 MR. RE: May that be given a number?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
7 THE REGISTRAR: That will be P359, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you Mr. Registrar. Any objection against
10 I take it you want to tender it?
11 MR. RE: Yes.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, there is no objection to this and no objection
13 to the ensuing photo-boards.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If that would be different for other counsel, I
15 would like to hear. Then P359 is admitted into evidence.
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. RE: It may be quicker if I hand the other six to the witness
18 and get a number afterwards because it's taking a few moments for it to
19 load now, if there's no objection.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you can hand them to the witness.
21 May I take it that you are handing them in the order as you just
22 indicated, that is, to start with 1137 up to 1141 because that would then
23 be 1137, 359 --
24 MR. RE: 1136 --
25 JUDGE ORIE: 1136 is then 359; 1137 would be --
1 THE REGISTRAR: P360, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE ORIE: 1138.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Would be P361.
4 JUDGE ORIE: 1139.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Would be P362.
6 JUDGE ORIE: 1140.
7 THE REGISTRAR: P362.
8 JUDGE ORIE: 1141.
9 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P363 Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Please proceed.
12 MR. RE: I'm just going to show the documents which Mr. Registrar
13 has just read on to the record.
14 Q. Firstly is 1136, the 36 you compiled for Daut Haradinaj?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Just in order to avoid confusion, the transcript
16 reads that you started with 1135, Mr. Re, and that would be 359.
17 MR. RE: [Microphone not activated]
18 JUDGE ORIE: So not 1136.
19 Mr. Registrar, would you move up all the numbers. That means 1136
20 becomes 360; 1137, 361; 1138, 362; 1139, 363; 1140, 36 --
21 THE REGISTRAR: 364, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because the transcript is not -- and then 1141
23 would be 365. And let's forget what the end of page 6 and the beginning
24 of page 7 said before.
25 Please proceed.
1 MR. RE:
2 Q. Starting at the three sets for Daut Haradinaj, which is 1136,
3 which is now Exhibit P39; is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. The next one was --
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Re, I think it was just corrected now to be
8 JUDGE ORIE: If you look at line -- page 7, line 15, Mr. Re,
9 you'll find the new order.
10 MR. RE:
11 Q. 1136 is --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Becomes 360, it reads on line 15.
13 MR. RE: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I was reading the old one.
14 Q. P360, Daut Haradinaj, is correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. I'll move to the next one, 1137, which is P361, which is three
17 sets for Ramush Haradinaj?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. Is that correct. The next one is 362, which is Nazmi Brahimaj.
20 Is that correct?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. The next one is 363, which is Pjeter Shala. Is that correct?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. The next one is 1140, is that Idriz Balaj, which is 364?
25 A. Yes, this is --
1 Q. P364 --
2 A. This is Idriz Balaj. This one, as I mentioned, I was only
3 involved in forwarding them on to the mapping section.
4 Q. And the final one is three sets for Lahi Brahimaj, which is P365?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. Did you show any photo-boards to witnesses in the course of your
7 interviewing them?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber about the procedures you --
10 first of all, how many witnesses, approximately, did you show photo --
11 these photo identification boards to in the process of the investigation?
12 A. Very, very few. I can't say a number because I don't know, but it
13 would be less than five, for sure, two, three maybe.
14 Q. And what were the procedures you employed? What did you do when
15 you showed the photo-boards to witnesses? What was your practice?
16 A. I would show the photo-boards during the course of an interview.
17 During -- I would start by interviewing the witness and -- and asking of
18 him about --
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honours, if rather than a practice
20 we could have specifically what the officer, I think it might be of more
21 assistance. Considering there are so few photo-boards that he showed, he
22 could us specifically what he did with a witness rather than a custom of
23 what he did.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, let's first hear the answer of the
25 witness, and then we of course could ask him whether this was a uniform
1 practice or whether there was any variety.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. RE:
5 Q. You said you would start by interviewing the witness and asking
6 him about ...
7 A. Just about the events. In the course of the interview, a witness
8 may or may have not mentioned one of the suspects. And if they did I
9 would explore all of the circumstances around this event, what they knew,
10 the prior knowledge, and if they've ever seen the perpetrator or the
11 alleged perpetrator, suspect, prior or after the event. And I would
12 continue with the interview. And at some stage later on I would show a
13 photo-board. I would tell the witness that I was going to show them a
14 photo-board, and I would lay it out in front of them and ask them to have
15 a look.
16 Q. What was the procedure you employed in laying it out in front of
17 them? What did you do?
18 A. I would just place it in front of them. I would step back or move
19 aside and I would let the witnesses have a look at it. There's not much
21 Q. What was the procedure in recording what a witness said?
22 A. I would usually -- I would record it in the -- in the body of the
23 statement. I say "usually," because I know that there has been one time
24 which I did not follow this practice, and I believe I'll be questioned
25 regarding this.
1 Q. I'll come to that in a moment, but let's just go back to your
2 practice, and if a witness made a positive or a negative identification,
3 that is, no identification or a positive identification, what did you do
4 with the photograph, or what did you get the witness to do with the
5 forcible transfer?
6 A. I would ask the witness to circle a number and to sign on -- on
7 the board. And I would include that in -- in the body of the statement.
8 I would include any other circumstance that the witness would -- would
9 mention surrounding the identification or comments they may have made
10 during the practice.
11 Q. Are you aware of the Office of the Prosecutor's photo-board
12 identification guide-lines?
13 A. Yes, I am.
14 Q. For photographic procedures. Now, they include a thing called a
15 photo identification -- sorry, a photo-board identification procedure
16 report, which according to the guide-lines is supposed to be completed by
17 investigators and the investigator is supposed to prepare a statement and
18 annex it to that report. What was your practice in relation to completing
19 the report which is in the OTP's guide-lines?
20 A. I did not prepare that report.
21 Q. Did you never prepare that -- such a report?
22 A. I never did.
23 Q. What about other investigators working in this case, are you aware
24 whether they were doing -- preparing reports or not?
25 A. I believe not.
1 Q. Are you able to give the Court a reason why the reports weren't
2 being prepared?
3 A. They're -- I can't give a reason. It's disresulted, burdensome,
4 and when there was a duplication of what was already added in the
5 statement itself.
6 Q. I'm going to take you to two witnesses you identified -- sorry,
7 not identified, interviewed, and I want to show you two exhibits under
8 seal. Firstly, P23; and secondly, Exhibit P15.
9 MR. RE: They're under seal so they shouldn't be displayed to the
10 public, but they're the pseudonyms and the witnesses' names.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, I take it that the documents will not
12 be shown to the public.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, is there anyone in the public gallery? Yes.
15 Then we have to pull the curtains down for a moment.
16 MR. RE:
17 Q. When we refer to the witnesses in court, Mr. Lorenzo Quiroz, I
18 just want to refer to them by their pseudonyms, that's Witness 4 and
19 Witness 19, but I'm showing you these for identification purposes so
20 you're completely clear who we're talking about. Okay, you see Witness 4
21 and you see the name of Witness 4?
22 A. I can see it.
23 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown P15, that's the pseudonym
24 sheet for Witness 19. Okay. Thank you. It no longer need be displayed.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then the curtains may be pulled up again.
1 MR. RE:
2 Q. Now, did you interview Witness 4 on the 21st of October, 2004, in
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Did you show him the photo-board which is Exhibit P27 containing
6 a photograph of the accused Idriz Balaj?
7 A. I did show a photograph, but I believe it was in June when I
8 interviewed the witness.
9 Q. Right. Perhaps if I could show you a copy of the witness's
10 statement which is 65 ter 1397.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, at this juncture --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- I would object unless there's a reason for
14 doing so. He's indicated he did show him the photo-board, and he gave a
15 date on which he did it.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe there may be some dissatisfaction with
18 the response and rather than leading occurring at this point, I think the
19 matter should be examined in another fashion.
20 MR. RE: It's hardly a memory test three years later as to the
21 date you showed a witness a photograph.
22 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is denied.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. RE: This should be displayed under seal; it has the witness's
25 identifying details on it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we again have to pull down the curtains.
2 MR. RE:
3 Q. If you could just look at the witness statement which is on the
4 screen there which refers to Witness 4, the date of the interview is
5 recorded as the 21st of October, 2004. A moment ago I think you said you
6 showed the witness the photographs in June.
7 A. I can -- I might be mistaken. I don't know.
8 MR. RE: Can the witness be -- can you please go to paragraph --
9 sorry, page 9, which is U0083820.
10 Q. You see paragraph 75 which says: "At this stage the investigator
11 has now shown me a spreadsheet containing eight different photographs of
12 individuals," and so on. "After having a close look I must state that the
13 picture number 6 is the man I know as Idriz Balaj, a.k.a. 'Togeri.' I
14 have signed the spreadsheet and attached it to my statement."
15 And there's a signature at the bottom of the page. Does that
16 assist you with the date at which you showed the witness the photographs?
17 A. This was definitely shown to him in October.
18 Q. Okay.
19 MR. RE: And if you can go two pages along, please, Mr. Registrar,
20 to the last page U0083822, which is in fact Exhibit P27.
21 Q. I just want you to confirm that that is the photograph you showed
22 Witness 4 bearing his signature with the circle around number 6?
23 A. Yes, this is the board.
24 Q. Now, when you showed him these photographs, did you adopt your
25 usual procedures?
1 A. Yes. Yes, I would have.
2 Q. Who was with you when you showed the photograph to him? Did you
3 have an interpreter?
4 A. I did have an interpreter. This in -- yeah, I -- yes, I did. I
5 could name the interpreter, I think, I. Can I name him?
6 Q. Yeah?
7 A. I think it was Maklen Misha, but I cannot tell by the signature.
8 Q. The front page records it as having been Mr. Maklen Misha,
9 assuming that's correct was there anybody with you with Witness 4 when you
11 A. I believe not. It should have been recorded -- it would have been
12 recorded on the front page.
13 Q. When you say you believe not, do you have any memory of it or are
14 you relying on your usual practice?
15 A. I'm relying on my usual practice and the fact that this was
16 October 2004 which was quite a long mission, it was a three-week mission
17 if I recall, and all the investigators that were there were tasked with
18 several duties, and we wouldn't have really had time to be doing too many
19 interviews at that stage.
20 Q. During that mission did you also interview the witness's brother,
21 that's Witness 19?
22 A. Yes. They were both interviewed if -- not on the same day but one
23 was interviewed first and the other was interviewed on the following day.
24 MR. RE: Can the witness please be shown Exhibit D9.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Under seal?
1 MR. RE: Again it's under seal, yes.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, the -- Mr. Registrar puts the same question
4 to me that came into my mind. What do you want to do with 65 ter 1397, do
5 you consider, if the parties agree, that the front page is given the date
6 in October and that you read the relevant portion of it, there might be no
7 need to tender it. I'm looking at Defence counsel, whether they would
8 have any problem with that.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: No, we would not.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Then there's no need to mark it for identification.
11 Please proceed. D9 is now under seal.
12 MR. RE: Yes. I have a paper copy which may speed things up.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You could give it -- well, it's on the screen
14 already, but.
15 MR. RE:
16 Q. This is a statement of the brother, that is, Witness 19, recorded
17 as having taken place on the 18th of July and the 20th of October, 2004.
18 Your name is on the front. One interpreter is there on the 18th of July,
19 2004, Mr. Maklen Misha is recorded as having been there on the 20th of
20 October, 2004. Now, do you remember taking this statement from Witness
22 A. I do.
23 Q. I want you to turn to page 7, paragraphs 52, 53, and 54. Which
24 start: "Questioned by the investigator how I know that the soldier that I
25 know as Idriz Balaj, a.k.a. 'Toger' is in fact who I say it is, I must say
1 even though I was a small child at the time I remember his face."
2 And at paragraph 53 he is recorded as saying: "I am certain that
3 this man I know as Idriz Balaj, a.k.a. 'Toger' is the same man that
4 abducted my sister ..."
5 Now, what I want to ask you about is the procedure there that you
6 employed. You said you showed him photographs of Idriz Balaj. Did you
7 show Witness 19 a photo-identification board containing a variation of the
8 same pictures of Idriz Balaj?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Now, that's not recorded in this statement?
11 A. No, it's not.
12 Q. Can you provide the Court with an explanation as to why that's not
13 in the statement?
14 A. That --
15 Q. First of all, the showing of the photographs to him and then
16 whatever the witness might have said?
17 A. Yes, I do recall this. And the photographs were shown during the
18 June interview, not during this interview in October. Things were
19 confusing at the time. I remember going up to the village -- I'm just
20 providing a bit of a history, going to their village and asking around for
21 them, and I left a phone number on a piece of blank paper for the witness
22 to contact. The witness contacted us and came to Pristina to be
23 interviewed -- to meet us, because at the time the witness was not
24 informed who we were.
25 It was only after that I met with the witness that I explained to
1 him and to his brother, who were present as well, and their grandmother
2 who we were and why we wanted to meet them.
3 This occurred in the office, and we sat in one of the offices
4 together and we established an initial rapport between us. And there they
5 started telling me a bit about what had occurred. At a moment in time,
6 the witness's grandmother became very emotionally disturbed, and I asked
7 one of the witnesses that I've interviewed later on to sit with her in a
8 different room. And it was during that time where I stayed with -- I'm
9 sorry, I can't remember if it's 4 or 19, it's the younger of the two
10 brothers. I stayed with him in the office, and I conducted the initial
11 interview, just asking questions.
12 And at one stage towards -- I think it was during the read-back, I
13 had shown the photograph -- the photo-board to the witness, but at the
14 time the witness was not asked to sign a statement because they both
15 showed serious concerns about their safety and their security. And I --
16 I'm sorry. And I just forgot about that matter.
17 Q. So you showed the photographs to both brothers, but you recorded
18 the details in Witness 4's statement but not Witness 19's statement.
19 A. With Witness 19, I was always a bit puzzled with their -- what
20 they were saying, and I'm basing myself on the age that they had when this
21 occurred. I wasn't sure if I was -- I never thought of showing them the
22 photograph initially and I wasn't going to show it. But I did at the end
23 of the interview. I can't remember whether I showed the other brother the
24 photograph then or not.
25 Q. Just to be clear, with Witness 19 I think you said June, you did
1 it in June. The statement says -- doesn't record you as having spoken to
2 him in June.
3 A. Well, at the time I did speak was when the whole family was
4 there. It was the two brothers and the grandmother. We were just
6 Q. Where were you when you showed him the photograph? Was it in the
7 village or in the office in Pristina or somewhere else?
8 A. It was in the office. The village was too dangerous to --
9 dangerous for their security. They would have easily been identified.
10 Q. What did Witness 19 say when you showed the photograph to him?
11 A. I do not recall.
12 Q. Do you remember whether he made a negative or a positive
14 A. I barely remember the incident at all. The only reason I
15 mentioned it now and I have come to know about it was because of the day
16 the witness was giving testimony in court, I received a phone call from
17 one of the investigators asking whether I had shown the witness a
18 photograph or not, and I just said, It will be in the statement, because
19 that's what I believed. And the investigator later informed me that it
20 wasn't. So I started looking through my diaries and trying to remember,
21 and I did show the witness a photograph but I just ...
22 Q. Have you recorded anywhere --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one follow-up question first.
24 You said, "I received a phone call from one of the investigators."
25 When did you receive that phone call?
1 THE WITNESS: That was the day that the witness was in court.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember more details?
3 THE WITNESS: It was -- I received the call on my mobile phone and
4 I was out of the office, so I was out for a walk at lunchtime. I would
5 say it was about 1.00 or so.
6 JUDGE ORIE: What did he tell you, the investigator? Did he just
7 put this question to you or ...
8 THE WITNESS: The investigator asked me whether I had shown a
9 photo-board to this witness or not.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
11 THE WITNESS: And just told me to take my time and to think about
13 JUDGE ORIE: Did he also tell you why he put that question to you
14 at that moment?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. The investigator said that the
16 witness had said in court, here during his testimony, that I had shown him
17 the photo-board.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you remember who the investigator was?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. It was Thomas Obruca.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Did you at any later stage have any contact with one
21 of the investigators or one of the persons employed in the Office of the
22 Prosecution on this matter?
23 THE WITNESS: I called the investigator back two days after
24 this --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 THE WITNESS: -- and the investigator told me that he could not
2 speak about the matter. He said -- this was over the weekend, I recall.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 THE WITNESS: And he informed me that I may wish to speak to one
5 of the legal officers on the team. So I called one of the trial attorneys
6 on Monday -- to the same trial attorney I spoke to, asked me if I was
7 contacting him for -- it if had anything to do with my time at the ICTY,
8 and I said yes. And the trial attorney informed me that they were ordered
9 not to talk to me about this issue.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. I was going to ask you, did you -- you said you went back -- you
14 said: "I started looking through my diaries and trying to remember and I
15 did show the witness a photograph, but I just" -- and I was going to ask
16 you: Did you record the fact that you'd shown the witness a photograph?
17 Did you record it anywhere?
18 A. No, it's not recorded. In my diary, the only thing I had was a
19 note of the witness's name, and two days later, a day later, I had a note
20 that I faxed through -- whatever I typed up at the moment, I faxed it
21 through here to the office.
22 Q. Now, who was present in the room with you when you showed the
23 photograph to the witness?
24 A. It would have been the interpreter. That's the one that's on the
25 first page of the statement.
1 Q. Were the two brothers ever together when you interviewed them or
2 showed them the photograph?
3 A. They were together at the initial stage when we were just -- when
4 I was explaining to them the reason why I wanted to meet with them.
5 Q. Just stop there. Was that in the village?
6 A. No, not in the village. In the village, I went up to the village,
7 and in the village I asked around. Nobody knew about them, so I just left
8 a number, a telephone number, and asked them to contact me and they did.
9 It was in the office. In the office, I have only asked for two -- I have
10 only asked for the grandmother and one of the brothers. The identity of
11 the other brother was unknown to me at that stage. I thought that
12 individual had been killed in the shooting incident in March -- March that
13 year, 1998 I believe it was.
14 Q. You said they were together at the initial stage when you were
15 explaining the reason why you wanted to meet with them. Just to be clear,
16 was that in the office in Pristina?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. For approximately how long were they and the grandmother there
19 while you explained this to them?
20 A. I cannot say. Maybe half an hour.
21 Q. What about the formal interviewing process? Were the two brothers
22 ever together during the formal interviewing process?
23 A. No. They were separated.
24 Q. What about when you showed them the photographs? Were they
25 together or were they separate?
1 A. They were separated.
2 MR. RE: That's the evidence.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Re.
4 Who will be first to cross-examine the witness? Mr. Emmerson, I
5 see you're on your feet.
6 MR. EMMERSON: I have just one or two questions. I'll be very
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Emmerson, who's counsel for
10 Mr. Haradinaj.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Now, I just want to ask you one or two --
12 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the blinds can be -- the curtains can
13 be drawn up again.
14 You may proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
16 Q. Just one or two brief questions about the compilation of the
17 photo-boards that you looked at, that is to say the ones that you were
18 personally reasonable for compiling. Presumably before you began, you
19 must have had a list of the names of particular suspects that you were
20 compiling photo-boards for?
21 A. That is correct.
22 Q. Was that a list of names given to you by somebody else?
23 A. That was a list of names that kept coming up when
24 cross-referencing all the material we had in-house and it was people that
25 we believed may have committed crimes within our jurisdiction.
1 Q. Did you do that process of selection yourself?
2 A. No, I was involved with the team.
3 Q. Can I ask you this, you mentioned the provision to your team of a
4 database of thousands of photographs that had been originally provided by
5 the KPC, the Kosovo Protection Corps. Is that right?
6 A. That is correct. I believe there were thousands. I can't say how
7 many photographs were there. I don't know.
8 Q. But you have an impression because presumably there was a point of
9 time at which you were just surfing through a very large number of
10 photographs looking for people who bore a reasonable resemblance to the
11 person whose photo-boards you were compiling?
12 A. There were printed out copies, and I was manually going through
13 the printed out copies and cross-referencing with the database, the
14 electronic database.
15 Q. And you mentioned an international organisation that had been the
16 conduit for the provision of those photographs from the KPC to the OTP.
17 Now, would that be the International Organisation for Migration?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And can I ask you, please, to - and I think this is clear from the
20 evidence that you've given - but may we have it from you directly, that
21 when compiling photo-boards that you have compiled, you never put the
22 photograph of more than one suspect on any one photo-board?
23 A. I believe I did not.
24 Q. And so far as the remainder are concerned, these were people that
25 you took from the KPC sample?
1 A. That is correct.
2 Q. Do you know whether the KPC sample itself was the whole of the KPC
3 database or a random selection from it?
4 A. I am unaware of that circumstance.
5 Q. And finally this: When you're making your selection from amongst
6 those thousands of photographs, the only criterion you are using is that
7 the person whose photograph you are picking out to add to the photo-board
8 is someone who bears a sufficient similarity to the suspect that - if I
9 can use the colloquial phrase - the suspect won't be left sticking out
10 like a carrot in a bunch of bananas, it's a process of reasonable
12 A. Yes, that is correct.
13 Q. They are, in effect, the equivalent random volunteers selected for
14 a proper identification parade.
15 A. I'm sorry, could you rephrase that?
16 Q. They are in effect those photographs, placebos, individuals in the
17 same position as those who would volunteer randomly volunteer for a
18 real-life identification drill?
19 A. That was the intended effect yes.
20 MR. RE: Before Defence --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. RE: -- goes on, there is a matter I would like to raise with
23 my Defence colleagues. Is it possible to take a break -- a short break
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if that has to be done before --
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: If it suits the Chamber, it's fine.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course. I don't know what you'd like to
3 discuss with your colleagues, but the Chamber is never opposing such
4 conversations. Then we'll have the break early, but since we started
5 late, not at the usual time, we'll resume at quarter past 4.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 3.50 p.m.
7 [The witness stands down]
8 --- On resuming at 4.19 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, I was informed that you wanted to
10 address the Court.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: During the break, Mr. Re supplied us with an
14 e-mail from investigator Thomas Obruca, dated March 15th, 2007, at
15 1.06 p.m., in which he says, that's Mr. Obruca, referring to Mr. Quiroz,
16 and I quote: "Jose can't recall, and he says if it's not mentioned in the
17 statement he does -- he does not have shown it."
18 Now, the reason I'm raising it at this point in time is that based
19 upon representations that were made in court on the 16th of March which
20 were in response to some concerns the Chamber had about whether or not
21 this person had been shown a photo-spread at all, Mr. Re made
22 representations at page 1261, line 17, through the end, and then
23 continuing on the next page which is: "I wish to advise you that after
24 the matters which arose yesterday in court regarding the photo ID boards
25 and whether or not they were shown to the witnesses, the Prosecution has
1 conducted as thorough a search as it possibly could of all its internal
2 records. We have reviewed our mission reports, all our statements, the
3 photo-board, investigator notes, we can find no record of the witness
4 being shown photo-boards which is recorded in the Office of the
5 Prosecutor's system. The searches are ongoing but I don't think we are
6 going to find anything, so I am putting before the Trial Chamber we have
7 done absolutely everything we can to identify what happens and it's fairly
8 obviously that if there had been some identification process, we surely
9 would have had a record there somewhere," on page 1262.
10 I don't know what further information can be obtained from
11 investigator Obruca and whether or not -- and I haven't had the chance to
12 go through the transcript sufficiently -- closely enough to see if there
13 is a violation of this Court's order or not in terms of contacting the
14 witness. But certainly there is a failure of response to this Court's
15 order in the event that any contact was made before the Court indicated
16 the witness and it should not have any conversations or proofing with any
18 I don't intend to go through a lengthy examination of the
19 witness on this issue at this time and believe that it may be
20 appropriately raised in terms of a motion, but before I go any further,
21 until I receive information, and that is because Mr. Re has indicated that
22 Mr. Obruca is on compassionate leave, and he cannot confirm the
23 correctness of what is recorded here, there still is another missing part
24 or potentially missing part to the puzzle, and I may be reserving some
25 cross-examination until that occurs. I'm loathed to go all the way
1 through this examination with regard to the issue of what was learned,
2 when, and how in the absence of having complete information for the second
3 or third time on an issue which is of some critical importance to my
4 client, and I wish to alert the Court to that at this time.
5 Any motions that I might have are motions that I think I will put
6 forth in writing as opposed to keeping on with the discussion at this
7 time. I am deeply troubled with the way all this evidence is coming in as
8 the Chamber can understand for obvious reasons, but that's a different
9 issue -- or part of the same issue, but can be raised in a different
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that, Mr. Guy-Smith.
12 Mr. Re, do you think that there's any -- at this time there's any
13 need to respond to what Mr. Guy-Smith said? He mainly took it as
14 information to the Chamber and an expression of concern, whether or not to
15 be followed up by any further submissions.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's an accurate indication of my submission.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I leave it up to you whether you want to say
18 anything about it now or whether you just wait and see what Mr. Guy-Smith
19 will submit in the future and then to respond to that.
20 MR. RE: I've provided him with some information which I found
21 while Mr. Emmerson was cross-examining. He's entitled to cross-examine on
22 that information.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. RE: I can't ascertain the correctness of it right at the
1 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
2 MR. RE: So that's all I can say.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think the witness could be brought into the
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: To the extent that the Prosecution was
8 specifically ordered to deal with this issue and to the extent that the
9 Prosecutor has an obligation not only to the Court with regard to this
10 issue but a professional obligation to make sure that with at least with
11 regard to this issue there is full disclosure. The question of
12 correctness is something that could have been dealt with some time ago,
13 specifically on the very date that Mr. Re received the e-mail. Mr. Re's
14 failure to open up an e-mail -- Mr. Re's failure to open up an e-mail may
15 raise some other issues, and I'm concerned about him at this point
16 second-guessing the correctness of the e-mail that he received from his
17 own investigator concerning a -- a conversation about something of
18 relatively critical importance.
19 MR. RE: This is outrageous. I object to this. It's time for
20 some perspective here. I was sitting in Court on that day. I didn't have
21 access to the e-mail. Sometimes -- I remember specifically sitting where
22 Ms. Schweiger is sitting and the thing -- not being able to open it. I
23 found the email when I was sitting here and Mr. Emmerson was
24 cross-examining and something jogged my memory about instructions that
25 Mr. Reid, the deputy chief of investigations, had issued at about the time
1 this happened.
2 It's outrageous for Mr. Guy-Smith to say I should be opening
3 e-mails. I'm getting over a hundred a day. Some e-mails are opened some
4 e-mails aren't opened. The fact is something jogged my memory as I was
5 sitting here, and I opened it, and immediately, immediately I asked for an
6 adjournment as it is my duty to do so and communicated it to my
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I've got no illusion at this moment that you
9 will agree with Mr. Guy-Smith on the matter of whether it's nice of you
10 that you now have immediately disclosed or whether it was not nice of you
11 not having opened it at that time. I think we leave it to the moment
12 where any further submissions are made, outrageous or unpleasant or
13 whatever it may be. I think at this moment the Chamber is now fully aware
14 of the position of the two parties in this respect.
15 Mr. Guy-Smith, are you ready to cross-examine the witness?
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I am.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Usher, would you please escort the witness
18 into the courtroom.
19 By the way, Mr. Troop, if I can use the time to address you just
20 for a second. I just said well outrageous or unpleasant, perhaps last
21 Friday I should have minded not our decision but the words in which I
22 addressed you a bit better, and perhaps then I would have also used more
23 pleasant words perhaps than I did. I apologise for that.
24 MR. TROOP: I don't know quite what to say, Your Honour, but thank
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please be seated, Mr. Quiroz.
4 You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith, who's counsel for
5 Mr. Balaj.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you so much.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
9 Q. Mr. Quiroz, just so we can get to somewhat of an understanding of
10 your experience and your qualifications, as I understand it you were an
11 investigator and a criminal investigator for the Tribunal in East Timor,
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And you were a police investigator in Spain, and you presently are
15 a criminal investigator at the ICC; true?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. And before you were an investigator for East Timor, were you
18 involved in any police functions or investigative functions?
19 A. I worked with the Guardia Civil's [Realtime transcript read in
20 error "Seville"] intelligence unit in Spain.
21 Q. For how long a period of time did you do that, sir?
22 A. From 1997 to 2000.
23 Q. And --
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- perhaps for the record I usually do not
25 correct it when we are on the go. It now reads the "Guardia Civil" where
1 I take it it's the Guardia Civil.
2 THE WITNESS: Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH:
5 Q. Before you began working with Guardia Civil, did you receive
6 training as a police officer in criminal investigations?
7 A. Yes, in the academy.
8 Q. When did you commence your studies with regard to criminal
9 investigation work or police work?
10 A. I attended police -- police academy in 1994, from November 1994 to
11 July 1995.
12 Q. Would it be fair to say that then by the time you began working
13 with the team tasked to investigate criminal activity or crimes in Kosovo,
14 that you had been involved in the business for approximately ten years,
15 give or take one?
16 A. Yes, more or less.
17 Q. Okay. During that period of time, and by the period of time I'm
18 referring to, that's when you were working in Guardia Civil, at that point
19 in time did you ever use photo-boards in your investigation?
20 A. No.
21 Q. While you were studying to become a member of the Guardia Civil,
22 did you ever receive any classes or training with regard to the use of
24 A. I cannot recall.
25 Q. Okay. When you left the Guardia Civil and began working at
1 East Timor Tribunal as an investigator, did you at that time receive any
2 training with regard to identification processes and the use of
4 A. No.
5 Q. During the period of time that you were working in East Timor, did
6 you use any photo-boards or photo-spreads for purposes of identifying any
7 potential suspects in the course of your investigation?
8 A. I believe on some occasion I may have.
9 Q. And when you say you believe on some occasion that you may have,
10 is that some distinct memory as you sit here today, or are you speculating
11 by virtue of the kind of cases you were involved in?
12 A. No, we -- I know for a fact I did not use a photo-board as the
13 ones that were presented here in this courtroom today. I did use
14 photographs --
15 Q. And when you say--
16 A. Sorry. Photographs of groups of different militias and from there
17 people were identified.
18 Q. Is it fair to say that at least during East Timor experience, you
19 at no point used the kind of photo-boards that we saw here today? I
20 believe that's what you've just said, but I wanted to be sure.
21 A. Yes, that is correct.
22 Q. During this time you were involved in the East Timor
23 investigation, was there any discussion with regard to your superiors with
24 to the utility the use of a photo-board with the purposes of identifying
1 A. I do not recall.
2 Q. After you left East Timor and you went back as a police
3 investigator in Spain, during that period of time what kind of
4 investigations were you engaged in, sir?
5 A. Counter-terrorism.
6 Q. Sorry?
7 A. Counter-terrorism.
8 Q. And were part of your tasked involved in counter-terrorism the
9 identification of potential suspects with regard to individuals who may be
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. During that period of time did you have occasion to use
13 photo-boards or photo-spreads with potential witnesses in order to
14 identify any suspects that you may have been investigating?
15 A. No.
16 Q. When did you conclude your work with the police investigators or
17 police investigation unit in Spain?
18 A. February 2002.
19 Q. Before you began working as an investigator for the ICTY, did you
20 take any courses or seminars - I'm speaking now in a much more general
21 sense - with regard to the kinds of investigative tasks and manner
22 performing those tasks while working for the ICTY?
23 A. No.
24 Q. When you began working for the ICTY, were you tasked to a specific
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What unit was that?
3 A. I was -- I was assigned to the OTP, and within the OTP to a team
4 that was investigating crimes committed in Kosovo.
5 Q. Did you have a team leader?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Who was your team leader?
8 A. Matti Raatikainen.
9 Q. Did you have discussions with Matti Raatikainen, your team leader,
10 about the use of photo-boards as an investigative tool with regard to the
11 investigation you were doing for crimes in Kosovo?
12 A. I believe that the issue was brought up at a team meeting.
13 Q. Okay. And when you say the issue was brought up at a team
14 meeting, would that have been a team meeting here in The Hague or a team
15 meeting in Kosovo, if you remember?
16 A. It would have been in The Hague.
17 Q. And during the time that that was brought up at a team meeting in
18 The Hague, do you recall what was discussed?
19 A. I cannot recall right now.
20 Q. During that period of time - and by that I mean at the team
21 meeting - do you recall whether or not there was a discussion as to how a
22 photo-board should be comprised?
23 A. I'm sorry, but I cannot remember.
24 Q. At that meeting do you recall whether or not there were any
25 discussions concerning some of the concerns that existed generally as
1 using a photo-board as an investigative tool?
2 A. I do not remember, but I would imagine - and I'm speculating now
3 because --
4 Q. Please don't. I don't want you to speculate. If you remember,
5 that's fine; if you don't, so be it.
6 A. I do not remember.
7 Q. Now, before you came to the ICTY to work as an investigator, you
8 had been involved in, I take it, a fair number of investigations over the
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. And you have learned as an investigator, I'm sure, the importance
12 of memorialising information concerning your efforts in that
13 investigation; true?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. That's something which is not particularly unique to being a
16 police officer, is it?
17 A. Not at all.
18 Q. Now, did you have a standard method of memorialising information
19 with regard to any investigation that you were involved in before you came
20 to the ICTY; and by that I mean, did you have, for example, a
21 chronological report in which you put the name, the date, the time, the
22 individuals that you were seeking to speak to or other pertinent
24 A. Well, we would either do it in notebooks or electronically.
25 Q. And when you say you would do it by notebooks or electronically, I
1 take it by that you mean by use of a computer?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that would be information that you saved?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And would ultimately then sent to either your supervising
6 investigator or your team leader or to other individual who was in a
7 position of authority, so they could make a determination of the use of
8 the material; correct?
9 A. That would be correct.
10 Q. And in this situation, by that I mean in terms of your
11 investigation in Kosovo, that's precisely what you did with regard to
12 reports; correct?
13 A. I believe so.
14 Q. When you say "I believe so," --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, you are developing a speed,
16 Mr. Guy-Smith.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH:
20 Q. When you say you believe so, are you as you are sitting here
21 speculating or is that what you did?
22 A. I believe that is what I did.
23 Q. Once again you've used the word "believe." And I'm trying to
24 understand each and every time you went out on an investigative mission
25 you wrote a report about what you did, you memorialized that information
1 in such a fashion that it would be there for eternity -- not necessarily
2 for eternity but certainly for the purposes of the investigation that you
3 were involved in?
4 A. I would.
5 Q. Now, those kind of reports would be distinct from the reports that
6 we're -- that we've been talking about here, and by that I mean the
7 statements that you took; correct?
8 A. I do not understand exactly.
9 Q. Let me see if I can explain my question. It was apparently badly
11 Sometimes you would go out into the field and you would not
12 necessarily speak to anybody, but you would obtain information; correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And specifically with regard to your investigation in the case of
15 OTP versus Haradinaj et al., that occurred; correct?
16 A. That is correct.
17 Q. And you specifically wrote down in a report what you did and what
18 you learned?
19 A. I would make notes, yes.
20 Q. Now, when you made those notes, part of the reasons you made those
21 notes was because that was information that you could then use at a later
22 point for investigative leads; correct?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. And also those reports were available for you to talk to your
25 colleagues and your contemporaries about how or where the investigation
1 should go; true?
2 A. True.
3 Q. And one of the people you would talk to, I assume, would be your
4 team leader, Mr. Raatikainen?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And another person I take it would be Pekka Haverinen; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And who were the other people who you were involved with in your
9 unit of investigation?
10 A. Howard Tucker, Harjit Sandhu, Ole Lehtinen, William Fulton. I'm
11 sure there's more.
12 Q. I'm sure there are, too. During the period of time that you were
13 involved in this investigation - and I'm referring now to I believe -- I'm
14 going to go to 2003 - during that period of time there was also an active
15 unit or group of law enforcement people who were on the ground in Kosovo
16 who were also engaged in investigating war crimes; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. That supposedly was UNMIK?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And I take it that one of the things that you would do and makes
21 sense is that you would cross-fertilise, and by that I mean that you would
22 share information with each other so that you could -- each group could
23 get the benefit --
24 A. Yes --
25 Q. -- of the information that was being obtained from all potential
1 sources; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And as you sit here today, could you tell us some of the UNMIK
4 individuals or UNMIK police that you dealt during the course of your
6 A. I wouldn't be able to name them by names; it's been some time.
7 Q. Would that be the kind of information that would be contained in
8 your chronological report or the diary you referred to?
9 A. It would probably be contained in the mission reports.
10 Q. And when you say "mission reports," those are documents I take it
11 that you compiled along with your fellow colleagues in the OTP and are
12 periodically submitted to the Prosecutor?
13 A. I --
14 Q. I'm asking because I don't have any idea.
15 A. It's -- was a practice when I returned from mission, and I think
16 that other investigators did the same, was to write a report in a
17 chronological order stating the activities that were carried out during
18 the mission. And that was submitted to the chief of investigations
19 through the team leader.
20 Q. And during the period of time that you were investigating in the
21 years 2003 through 2005, was the chief of investigations for your team
22 leader the same?
23 A. Was --
24 Q. Was the chief of investigations the same?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And that would have been who?
2 A. That would have been Patrick Lopez-Terres.
3 Q. Sorry, I missed the last name?
4 A. Patrick Lopez-Terres.
5 Q. As a result of the mission reports that you compiled, did you have
6 any meetings with Patrick Lopez-Terres concerning the manner in which you
7 should proceed concerning your investigations?
8 A. Yes, there were at some stage.
9 Q. And could you tell us as you sit here today -- when you say "at
10 some stage," was that in 2003? 2004? 2005? Do you know?
11 A. I believe it was in 2004.
12 Q. During that -- and as I -- and I'm -- once again, I'm guessing,
13 when you say you believe it was in 2004, as you sit here right now today,
14 you have no hard evidence, for example, a notebook or a diary, that would
15 allow you to give us that information as to when you had those meetings?
16 A. No, that would be -- we would probably have minutes of that.
17 Q. Okay, but you personally have no records whatsoever?
18 A. No, there were team meetings with the chief of investigations or
19 his deputy.
20 Q. And the mission reports that we were referring to but a moment
21 ago, those mission reports, were those compilations that were done by all
22 of the investigators and by that I mean some of the individuals you've
23 mentioned like Mr. Tucker and Mr. Lehtinen or were those a compilation
24 that you received from your colleagues at UNMIK?
25 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand.
1 Q. Were the mission -- the reports --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- were those reports something that were a compilation of all the
4 investigative efforts of all the individuals?
5 A. The nature of the mission report itself would be -- let's say a
6 log of activities that were carried out. Meetings with different
7 agencies, different people on the ground, that would have been recorded in
8 individual notes to file, investigator's notes to file, which would be
9 circulated as well for everybody's attention within the unit.
10 Q. And that -- there's a sensible reason for doing that, that's so
11 everybody can share the same body of information and understand where the
12 progress of the investigation is going; correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. During the period of time that you were a police officer before
15 you became working for international organisations, did you have occasion
16 in interviewing witnesses to video record any witnesses?
17 A. That was not the nature of my duties.
18 Q. When you started taking statements, I guess that would be first of
19 all probably when you were in East Timor?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. When you started taking statements in East Timor at that point in
22 time, did you begin utilising the method of video recording as a way of
23 memorialising statements so that you would have available to you a
24 complete, accurate statement, both of word and of demeanour?
25 A. No, that was not used.
1 Q. Did you audio-record?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you get handwritten statements from some of those people?
4 A. Some of them, yes.
5 Q. And by "handwritten statement," that is a statement where the
6 actual -- the individual that you were talking to writes out in their own
7 hand that which occurred?
8 A. Yes --
9 Q. Or that which they are reporting?
10 A. Or the individual would have handed a handwritten statement made
11 prior by themselves to me to channelize through the unit.
12 Q. By the time that you got to Kosovo, did things change? Were you
13 using video recordings by then?
14 A. Some video recordings were used in suspect -- audio mostly, but
16 Q. I heard you use the word "suspect" --
17 A. Suspect interviews.
18 Q. Apart from suspects, was it your unit's practice to video or audio
19 record other witnesses who were important to the investigation?
20 A. I don't recall any.
21 Q. Do you recall there being any discussions about when it would be
22 appropriate to video record, audio record, or take a written statement
23 from a suspect, the distinct between the three? Do you recall whether or
24 not your unit had any discussions about when you would choose to do one or
25 the other?
1 A. No.
2 Q. When you say "no" is that because it's something you don't
3 remember or it's something you believe never occurred?
4 A. The only time I do remember audio recording or video recording was
5 in the case of suspects' interviews; in all other cases, I don't remember
6 it being discussed.
7 Q. Okay. And you personally never recorded any interviews unless --
8 and by "record," I mean audio recorded any interviews unless they dealt
9 with a suspect?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. And when you were involved in an investigative task of
12 interviewing with one of your colleagues, the same would be true?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. Okay. How did you get the job of having to go through thousands
15 of photos to put together the photo-boards?
16 A. I have absolutely no idea. I was tasked with it.
17 Q. You were tasked with it. Okay. Now, that is something that I, as
18 I understand your testimony, took you a period of some weeks to do?
19 A. The whole process, yes.
20 Q. And the whole process, that means for all of the individuals who
21 you've identified that you put together photo-boards for, that's
22 Ramush Haradinaj, Lahi Brahimaj, Nazmi Brahimaj, Daut Haradinaj,
23 Alush Agushi, and Pjeter Shala?
24 A. Yes, that is correct.
25 Q. Now, did you do that by yourself? By that, I mean did you compile
1 the photo-boards for each one of those individuals by yourself?
2 A. I --
3 Q. After you got the pictures?
4 A. Yes. I don't remember if I did it by myself or somebody else
5 assisted me on some occasion, but I believe I did do it by myself.
6 Q. There clearly would be -- when you were doing that particular task
7 there would be some log of the efforts of how you put the photo-board
9 A. I don't understand.
10 Q. There would be a record of what you did --
11 A. The record --
12 Q. The record, which is that you picked this photo --
13 A. I picked the photographs, it would be mostly on e-mail exchange, I
14 guess, that I had with the mapping and printing unit. Once I compiled the
15 photographs, I sent them up to the mapping and printing unit and back.
16 Once I had the results, I presented them to -- in a team meeting.
17 Q. And when you say you presented them in a team meeting, of all the
18 individuals who were in the team meeting, were those people that you
19 referred to before who were familiar with the suspects you were
21 A. I believe so.
22 Q. Did Mr. -- I have a hard time with his name Matti Raatikainen?
23 A. Matti Raatikainen.
24 Q. Discuss with you any guide-lines that should be used --
25 A. The --
1 Q. -- for purposes of compiling the photo-spread?
2 A. Standard operational procedures.
3 Q. Okay. And when you say "standard operational procedures," that is
4 something that the two of you discussed together or were you relying on
6 A. I was asked to compile suspected photo-boards or photo-boards
7 according to the protocol, SOP, that I just mentioned.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. And I found the SOP in a book where it was a compendium of all
10 protocols and procedures that we had.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could we please have 65 ter I believe it's -- it's
12 not 65 ter, it's Defence 633 called up on the screen, please.
13 Q. Hopefully a document will, if I have done it properly, will pop up
14 in a moment and it's called "Identification Guide-lines." Now, is this
15 the standard operating procedure document that you are referring to?
16 A. Yes it is.
17 Q. And this is the document you would reviewed before you began to
18 compile the photo-boards?
19 A. That is correct.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Could I have a -- it be admitted?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 Mr. Registrar, that would be number ...?
23 THE REGISTRAR: D119, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: No objection, Mr. Re.
25 Admitted into evidence.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH:
3 Q. Now, when you went -- after you compiled the photo-boards that you
4 told us about in this case, you had them -- so I'm clear about how it was
5 done, you had them sent to mapping?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. They produced three separate copies for you of each suspect with
8 seven foils?
9 A. That is correct.
10 Q. Correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And your directions to them were to make sure that the suspect was
13 in a different position on the photo-board --
14 A. That --
15 Q. -- in each one of the three photo-boards that you had put
17 A. The way it's phrased would be incorrect.
18 Q. Okay --
19 A. It's --
20 Q. Well, please, I want it to be correct. So if I said it
21 incorrectly, help me out.
22 A. The way it's phrased it would be incorrect. I asked them to
23 scramble the photographs without identifying the suspect and they did so,
24 and I made sure that the suspect was in different positions. I remember
25 one case one of the boards had the suspect -- all the other photos were
1 scrambled but the suspect's photograph, and I asked them to change that
3 Q. So by the time you were finished with that particular endeavour
4 with regard to the photo-boards that you've compiled for the individuals
5 we've named, each and every one of those individuals had three separate
6 photo-boards available for your use to go out in the field to talk to
7 people with; correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And those are the photo-boards that have been introduced into
10 evidence here?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And you've had an opportunity to examine -- to examine those
13 photo-boards --
14 A. Yes, I had a look at them.
15 Q. Okay. And you're satisfied that those are the photo-boards that
16 you had compiled and that you had delivered back to you from the mapping
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. After you had gone through the compilation and received the
20 photo-boards back from the mapping services, then you began to use these
21 photo-boards for purposes of talking to various people; correct?
22 A. They were available, not necessarily used.
23 Q. Okay. And by saying that they were available, you told the other
24 members on your team that you had compiled these photo-boards and that
25 they could use them if they wanted to use them for purposes of getting
1 identifications with regard to the five individuals you've named?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Was there any other involvement from the time you got the
4 photo-boards back from mapping and the numbers had been scrambled, there
5 was no further involvement by anybody else on your team with regard to
6 whether or not the photo-board itself looked like a good photo-board?
7 A. Not to my knowledge.
8 Q. You didn't share those photo-boards to anyone else? You didn't
9 show them to people who were not involved in your investigation, did you?
10 A. Not me personally.
11 Q. I'm only talking about you personally.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. You were the one who was tasked with the responsibility of making
14 sure that the photo-board, as compiled, was a fair photo-board; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. Going back to the standing -- standard operating procedure
17 for a moment, did you have the board -- from what you've told us, you
18 didn't have the board checked by someone in the OTP who did not know the
19 identity of the suspect?
20 A. Printing and mapping.
21 Q. Printing and mapping.
22 A. They would do a check -- they never knew who the suspect was.
23 Q. I see. And did they come back to you with an analysis of the
24 fairness of that photo-board?
25 A. I can't remember if anything in writing was put but --
1 Q. You can't remember if anything in writing was put?
2 A. I can't remember if anything was put in writing, but yes I believe
3 they said it was fair.
4 Q. So you sent them apart -- apart from sending them the photographs
5 themselves what you did is you asked them for an independent determination
6 as to whether or not they felt it was a fair photo-board?
7 A. I can't remember.
8 Q. Well, that would be something that would be contained in your
9 chronological notes, would it not?
10 A. I wouldn't have made specifically a mention of that.
11 Q. You wouldn't have made a mention one way or another as to whether
12 or not the photo-spread itself, as comprised, was a fair photo-board? And
13 by that I mean you didn't do any blind tests?
14 A. No, I didn't.
15 Q. Okay. Before you --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. Guy-Smith, the expression
17 "fair photo-board" has been used several times now --
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'll help --
19 JUDGE ORIE: And --
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- I'll help out there because I understand the
21 Chamber's point.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH:
24 Q. When I'm using the term "fair photo-board" and asking for an
25 outside determination, an outside opinion by that, what I'm getting at is
1 that the suspect themselves shouldn't stand out in the line-up as being
2 different from the -- the other individuals who are contained in the
4 A. [Indiscernible]
5 Q. Now, I just used another term which is the term of "blind test,"
6 to which you said you never did that, which is you never showed the
7 photo-board you compiled to any individuals who did not know the suspects
8 to make a determination as to whether or not anyone in that photo-spread
9 would be picked out?
10 A. That is correct.
11 Q. Did you ever have a chance before --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, I'm now really getting confused. I
13 think the witness said that he asked the mapping unit, who didn't know who
14 the suspects were, to -- let me just find it. Could we clarify that.
15 "They would do a check. They never knew who the suspect was.
16 "I see. And did they come back to you with an analysis of the
17 fairness of that photo-board?
18 "I can't remember if anything in writing was put, but yes I
19 believe they said it was fair," that is a third party not knowing -- well,
20 third party or not -- at least these were persons the witness testified
21 were not aware of the identity of the person. Perhaps we could further
22 find what then exactly -- what kind of test was applied. Please proceed.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
24 Q. Following up on Judge Orie's question because you indicated you
25 did not do a blind test, what kind of information had you supplied to the
1 mapping division with regard to the photo-boards you had put together so
2 that they could come to this conclusion? And by that I mean did you give
3 them any factual information concerning the descriptions of the
4 individuals who were suspects?
5 A. None at all.
6 Q. None at all?
7 A. No. The only question put to them was: Does any of the pictures
8 stand out? All the names and the numbers that were associated with the
9 photos and the database were stored apart, and that never reached them, so
10 they wouldn't know who was who.
11 Q. Okay. Did you, apart from what you've just said, ever give to
12 anybody a physical description of one of the suspects in the photo-board
13 that you had compiled and asked them based on the description that you had
14 given them whether or not one or more of the individuals stood out?
15 A. No.
16 Q. I want to turn now to your interviews with two individuals,
17 Witness 4 and Witness 19, individuals that you spoke with Mr. Re about
18 earlier. Now, you've told us that you first saw them, I believe, in July.
19 Is that correct?
20 A. June or July.
21 Q. June or July?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Once again, that would be information when you first saw these
24 individuals, that would be information that would be contained in the log
25 that we referred to before?
1 A. Yes, probably.
2 Q. Well, when you say "yes, probably," because you were having some
3 difficulty with dates when you were speaking with Mr. Re, I take it that
4 one of the things that you have done is you've memorialized when you've
5 met certainly with witnesses that you deem to be important, at a minimum,
6 the date upon which you met with them?
7 A. Yes, that would be correct.
8 Q. And that information would be contained where, sir?
9 A. The mission report would have identified that there had been a
10 meeting with that person.
11 Q. And you received information at some point in time that - and I'm
12 asking - I believe it would have been Witness 4 would be somebody who you
13 would be interested in speaking to; correct?
14 A. I -- Witness 4, I believed, was killed; that was my belief before
15 the first meeting. I thought the individual had died in a shooting
16 incident in --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. My apologies. Now, you --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any confusion here, because --
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, unless we can go into private -- I was just
22 trying to stay out of private session, Your Honour, that's all.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, at the same time if the witness is talking about
24 a different person, because as I remember Witness 4 testified in this
25 courtroom, so at least at that moment he was still alive. So therefore
1 there could be confusion. Could we perhaps -- well, I think we can do it
2 in two different ways. We can ...
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps -- perhaps that should better be done
5 in private session, that we look at perhaps the family composition and
6 then see whether there's any confusion there.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well.
8 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session, I may take it,
9 Mr. Guy-Smith?
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, if we could go to private session, Your
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 [Private session]
11 Pages 5915-5918 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
19 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH:
21 Q. Once again my question is that you did not speak to 19 about any
22 further factual matters when you met with him in October; correct?
23 A. I believe that it was a read-back of the notes that had been taken
24 during the first interview in July, and I believe that was it.
25 Q. That was it?
1 A. I believe that was it, yes.
2 Q. Did you see W-4 the same day and speak to W-4?
3 A. W-4 did not attend the call and came on the following day.
4 Q. And on the following day when you spoke with W-4, that is the day
5 that you showed him, if I understand your evidence correctly, a
7 A. Yes, that is correct.
8 Q. So the first photo-board was shown in July to W-19, for which we
9 have no records?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And the second photo-board was shown to W-4 October 21st, the day
12 after W-19 had been to see you and spoke with you?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Okay. And that's -- for both of them, that's 2004; correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Now, as you sit here right now today, you're not in a position to
17 tell us factually what happened during your showing of the photo-spread to
18 W-19 in July of 2004, are you?
19 A. No, I'm not.
20 Q. Okay. With regard to the photo-board that you showed to W-4 in
21 October, do you recall if before you showed W-4 the photo-board you asked
22 him for a physical description of any of the suspects that he was to
24 A. I would have to see the statement.
25 Q. Okay.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: That would be P15.
2 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
3 JUDGE ORIE: P15 is under seal, and therefore should not be shown
4 to the public.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: My apologies we should be in --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Not necessarily --
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry.
8 JUDGE ORIE: It depends on what questions you are going to put to
9 the witness, but at least the curtains should be drawn.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm going to ask him quickly review the statement
11 and make a determination of whether or not he asked the witness for any
12 physical description of the suspect.
13 MR. RE: P15 is the pseudonym sheet, it's not the statement.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I apologise.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's P -- Mr. Re.
17 MR. RE: I think it's D9 what you're talking about.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: D9, too many Ps and too many Ds, my apologies.
20 Q. And when I'm -- as we're discussing -- as we're waiting for this
21 to come up and I -- that's -- that's Witness 19's -- let me double-check
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think it is.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's Witness 19 and I need Witness 4. In two
25 seconds I'll have it.
1 Q. While I'm --
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's 0217, 2D0217.
3 Q. While I'm waiting for that to come up when I say "physical
4 description," I'm talking about such things as the height of the
5 individual, the hair colour of the individual, the -- whether or not the
6 individual had any facial hair, whether or not there were any peculiar
7 identifying marks on the individual such as tattoos, blemishes, or scars.
8 That's what I'm referring to.
9 A. I suppose I would have asked that in the moment of my questioning,
10 but I would have to see the statements.
11 Q. And that would be something that would be contained in the
12 statement --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would it not --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- that you had talked to the potential -- the potential witness
17 concerning identification before you showed them any photo-board, that he
18 had given you a general description of the suspect; correct?
19 A. I would usually have asked for a description once they name or
20 shortly after they name one of the suspects -- not necessarily just before
21 showing them this in the photo-board.
22 Q. Okay. Before -- before showing someone a photo-board - and now
23 we're dealing with generally for the moment --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. -- but I wanted to deal with specifically what you did with
1 Witness 4. Before showing Witness 4 the photo-board, did you obtain
2 objective information concerning the identification characteristics of the
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, are you now moving from 19 to 4 or --
5 because I think we were dealing with the statement of Witness 19 and you
6 now moved to 4. Is that intentionally or ...?
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: With -- I'm happy to deal with -- no, it wasn't
8 intentional and I --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So let's -- in order to avoid whatever
10 confusion, since we were dealing with Witness 19, if you move to 4, it
11 should be clear to the witness --
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- that you're talking about a different person.
14 Please move on in the way that you deem appropriate.
15 Isn't it --
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm trying to --
17 JUDGE ORIE: At this stage --
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm trying to make sure that I have the right
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Yes, as a matter of fact at this moment I think you are -- the
22 document on the screen is Witness 4.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think it is.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just --
25 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].
1 JUDGE ORIE: I think -- I tried to get the -- I looked at D9 as
2 Mr. Re told you --
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- was the witness statement of Witness 19.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Correct.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And I now see that that's not the one that is on the
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: The one that's on the screen is the one for
9 Witness 4 because of the -- because of Mr. Quiroz's response with regard
10 to what information there was concerning the identification process as it
11 relates to Witness 19 in which there are just no records.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I decided to move to -- over to Witness 4.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes because --
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I'm sorry if I made it -- I wasn't trying to
16 be confusing, and if I confused Your Honour, I do apologise.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed. So we are now dealing with the
18 statement of Witness -- but have we identified in the statement of Witness
19 19 any description of a person?
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Not yet and I will come --
21 JUDGE ORIE: You will come --
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- to that --
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- to that. So now we are focusing on Witness 4.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Correct.
25 JUDGE ORIE: That means focusing on Witness 4 on the 21st of
1 October, that's the one who came the second day where you were surprised
2 that he did not come on the first day?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes?
5 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH:
8 Q. And referring your attention to paragraph, I believe it is, 75,
9 assuming that I now have the right document up, which is at U0088320, can
10 you see paragraph 75?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Apart from --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Could we zoom-in a bit so that the witness can better
14 see it. Yes.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH:
16 Q. Apart from the information that's contained in that paragraph
17 concerning your endeavours in the identification process, is it your
18 evidence that there are other places in the statement where Witness 4
19 gives you objective information concerning the physical characteristics of
20 the suspect?
21 A. I don't know. I would have to review the whole statement.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. I don't know if a description is contained somewhere else; I
24 cannot recall.
25 Q. Would you take it from me that it is not? Would you do that?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't know whether or not Mr. Re would disagree
3 with that or not, so before I go any further I want to take but a moment.
4 MR. RE: Mr. Guy-Smith's asking me -- I mean, I've read the
5 statement, the Trial Chamber's got the statement, the witness has the
6 statement. I read him 75 or 52 before, yeah.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's a yes.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's a yes.
9 Q. With that in mind, could you tell us whether or not you think that
10 this kind of information - and by that I mean height, weight, hair colour,
11 facial hair, or any other characteristics - you've noted somewhere else
12 with regard to your interviewing of Witness 4?
13 A. I do not know.
14 Q. Well, I believe you've told us that with regard to - and correct
15 me if I'm wrong - with regard to the interview process the information
16 that you gleaned from the witness would be contained within that
17 statement; right?
18 A. That is correct.
19 Q. And if we were to review I believe one of your statements that you
20 recently made, you had an opportunity to review this particular statement,
21 the statement of Witness 4, and have agreed that that is the information
22 that you were given in the identification that you received?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Nothing further than that?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. Okay. Now, during the time that you were engaged in the interview
2 process with Witness number 4, the only people who were in the room were
3 yourself and the interpreter; correct?
4 A. I believe so, yes.
5 Q. Before you showed Witness Number 4 the photo-spread, had you
6 discussed with anybody the advisability of having somebody who did not
7 know the suspect show him that photo-board?
8 A. No, that was not discussed.
9 Q. Are you personally aware of any of the literature or concerns that
10 have been voiced over the years concerning having the investigating
11 officer who knows the suspect perform the photo-spread identification?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay. While you were speaking to Witness Number 4, you were
14 aware, were you not, that Idriz Balaj had been the victim of an
15 assassination attempt and his photograph and that of his family had been
16 shown on television in Kosovo?
17 A. I cannot remember.
18 Q. While you were speaking to Witness Number 4 in 2004, you were
19 aware of the fact that Idriz Balaj had been a defendant in a trial?
20 A. Yes, I am aware of that.
21 Q. A very notorious trial?
22 A. I am aware of that.
23 Q. And that his likeness had been shown both on television and in the
25 A. Yes, I am aware.
1 Q. That would be information that would be pertinent to you in
2 determining the propriety of showing this individual a photo spread, would
3 it not?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And as a matter of fact, having that information, understanding,
6 of course, what the possible effect of a previous viewing of Mr. Balaj
7 could have on a person would be a factor for not showing a photo-spread,
8 wouldn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, as a matter of fact you had learned in July when you spoke to
11 his brother, Witness 19 --
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: And now we can have D9 back up, and I'm referring
13 the Court and counsel to paragraph 52 which is at U0083834.
14 Q. -- that his brother gave you two pieces of information of the kind
15 and nature that we've been talking about. One is a piece of information
16 concerning a physical characteristic, that being that he had a small, and
17 it says "scare," I'm assuming that the word is scar, around his mouth;
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And that's the kind -- that's the kind of information that we were
21 talking about before in terms of physical characteristics; right?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. And additionally, he told you that: "After the war I saw him on
24 the news reporting that he had been found guilty of crimes that he had
25 committed." Correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Now, that's information that you received in July of 2004; right?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Some -- some three months before you spoke with his brother;
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And the information that you received concerning that you saw him
8 -- that he saw him, that being Witness 19 saw him, on the news was
9 information that you pursued, I take it; right? You asked him some
10 questions about what he saw, didn't you?
11 A. I believe so.
12 Q. Okay. And could you tell us what he told you he saw on the news?
13 Did he tell you he saw Idriz Balaj sitting in the dock at the Dukagjin
15 A. I don't remember. I remember that it was discussed, but I don't
16 remember exactly what -- it definitely did have to do with the trial.
17 Q. Did he tell you that he'd seen photographs of Idriz Balaj and his
18 wife and his child after the assassination attempt in January of 2002?
19 A. I do not know. I can't remember.
20 Q. Did he tell you about seeing photographs, by that I mean
21 television reporting, of the result of the Dukagjin trial, in which Idriz
22 Balaj was, in fact, convicted in 2002?
23 A. I believe so.
24 Q. And he told you about -- also about the fact that he saw newspaper
25 articles concerning that, did he not?
1 A. I do not recall that.
2 Q. Now, after you -- after you spoke with Witness 19 in July and you
3 learned this piece of information, that he had seen Mr. Balaj on
4 television, I take it this caused you some concern, did it not, in terms
5 of how valid a photo-spread would be for purposes of identifying Idriz
7 A. Yes.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, may I ask you one question. I think
9 both Witness 4 and Witness 19 have, at least that was the testimony, met
10 Toger or Togeri not on one occasion. From the statement of Witness 19 it
11 even says he would go around the village in his vehicle and all the
12 children knew him as commander. I mean, you're so much focusing on a
13 later moment when he appeared on television, whereas I think the primary
14 issue here is whether we are talking about identification or about
15 recognition. And that seems not to be part of your concern, and it might
16 be both the concerns of the Chamber.
17 And if you say it should be of concern whether or not to show a
18 photo-spread, I think as a matter of fact isn't it correct to say that if
19 we're not talking about identification but about giving a photo to someone
20 you may have seen earlier in your life and at other occasions and not just
21 at that very short moment, that the main issue is that it -- the
22 photo-spread doesn't add anything so that the issue might be that the
23 suggestion that recognition adds anything to what a witness said, and that
24 is that he knew this person from before and he identified that person --
25 so therefore, I do not -- I have some difficulties in following the logic
1 in this respect. And I didn't want to hide this from you so that you
2 can -- if you think that I'm wrong, put such questions to the witness as
3 to -- as to --
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I appreciate -- I appreciate the Court's concern
5 and I think that what we have here is a -- a mixed psychological bag of
6 identification and recognition. I wanted to take care of the
7 identification issue and see if I could put that in some perspective.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: And then deal also with the recognition issue, of
10 which also I, to be perfectly honest with you, as this case goes on other
11 information will develop, because as you've heard this witness say, he
12 learned that the information that he had was that the contact between
13 those people and whoever Toger may be - and by that we don't at any point
14 concede that Mr. Balaj was, in fact, the individual who was involved in
15 this incident --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's not. I didn't want to hide from you --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Sure, I appreciate it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- that at least there is an issue of whether or not
19 we are talking about identification.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: I --
21 JUDGE ORIE: And I said that since you were so much focusing on
22 identification, it's more difficult to understand your line of
23 questioning if it would have been recognition. Please proceed -- but
24 perhaps, I'm also looking at the clock. Mr. Guy-Smith how much more time
25 do you think you would need?
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think I would need another 20 minutes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Another 20 minutes, so perhaps it's better to have a
3 break now until 6.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 5.40 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 6.02 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
8 Q. In your testimony you told us that you were not only aware of the
9 Standard Operating Procedures for putting together a photo-board, but also
10 the Standard Operating Procedures for the memorialisation of the
11 photo-board interview process.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if we could have 65 ter -- it's not 65 ter,
13 it's 2D636 up on the screen, I'd appreciate it, which is the photo-board
15 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's -- oh, that's the -- was that not part
16 of the document that was admitted into evidence or --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Actually, I think what has happened is that it was
18 split into two, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: So that you have the -- I think it's been stapled
21 all together --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- as one but it's been split into two.
24 JUDGE ORIE: So the document admitted was three pages and we have
25 now a new document, photo-board procedure report.
1 Mr. Registrar, that would be ...?
2 THE REGISTRAR: D120, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE ORIE: D120.
4 Also no objection, I take it, Mr. Re. And therefore, if you want
5 to tender that --
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do.
7 JUDGE ORIE: -- it's admitted into evidence.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH:.
10 Q. With regard to the photo-board identification procedure report,
11 this is a document that you saw before you interviewed, for example,
12 Witness 4; correct?
13 A. That is correct.
14 Q. And this is a document that, in fact, establishes a procedure
15 whereby you can memorialize the information in a relatively concise and
16 focused manner so that all of the information concerning the
17 identification process is contained in this single document; true?
18 A. True.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, if the witness would have said not
20 true, then of course no one would have believed -- I mean, the question is
21 rather useless.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: You're right. You're absolutely right.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I mean --
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: You're absolutely right.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH:
2 Q. You indicated that the reason you did not use this particular form
3 was, using your words, because it was burdensome; right?
4 A. That is correct, I did say that.
5 Q. As you sit here today, you have no information which would allow
6 you to tell the Chamber what the physical and verbal reactions of
7 Witness 4 were, apart from that which is contained in the statement;
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. During the time that you were with Witness 4, understanding of
11 course the proximity and relationship between Witness 4 and Witness 19,
12 did you have any discussion with Witness 4 concerning his identification
13 and whether or not that is information that he should -- to divulge to
14 anyone else?
15 A. I don't remember.
16 Q. Okay. With regard to Witness 19, I take it the answer would
17 clearly be the same because there we have no notes at all?
18 A. I do not remember.
19 Q. Okay. You were called by I believe it is a gentleman by the name
20 of Mr. Obruca on the 15th of March of this year regarding what I will call
21 the missing or lost photo-board.
22 A. I was called, yes. I can't confirm the date.
23 Q. Okay. And the subject matter was that somebody had testified to
24 having gone through a relatively intense interviewing experience with you,
25 had identified someone off a photo-board, and there was no record of that;
2 A. I was informed that -- I was asked if a photo-board was shown.
3 That's what I was asked by the investigator.
4 Q. Okay. And do you recall that you told that investigator, that was
5 Mr. Obruca, that you couldn't recall whether or not a photo-board had been
6 shown or not?
7 A. I -- I said that would be contained in the statement.
8 Q. And if it's not mentioned in the statement, then you didn't show
9 it; that's what you told Mr. Obruca, right?
10 A. I told him if it was shown it would be in the statement.
11 Q. That's not my statement. If it's not mentioned in the statement,
12 then you did not show it. That's what you told Mr. Obruca. Maybe it's
13 not. I asked if that's what you did tell him?
14 A. I asked Mr. Obruca what the statement said and he said that there
15 was no mention. He told me not to answer his question. His words were:
16 Don't answer me now, take your time, think about it, and call me back.
17 Q. Okay. I take it that you, after he asked you the question
18 concerning this issue of the photo-board, you thought about it and you
19 called him back?
20 A. I did, after a day or two.
21 Q. And when you called him back, did you speak to him directly?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I'm --?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, has the issue at this moment? Is it
25 whether there was any identification recognition or not or are we now
1 exploring further the communication between --
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: For the moment we're exploring the
3 communication --
4 JUDGE ORIE: Okay --
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- between Mr. Obruca --
6 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear to me. Please proceed.
7 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your question?
8 MR. GUY-SMITH:
9 Q. I have a document here which is an e-mail from Mr. Obruca to
10 Mr. Re and I'd would like you to comment on it, if you could.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In which Mr. Obruca says in an e-mail on 1.06 p.m. on the 15th of
13 March, 2007, that: "Jose can't recall and he says if it's not mentioned
14 in the statement, he does not have shown it."
15 Now, my question to you initially and very simply sir is: Did you
16 say that to Mr. Obruca? Did you make this statement to him?
17 A. I could have.
18 Q. By saying that you could have are you telling us that you don't
19 remember whether you made the statement to Mr. Obruca?
20 A. The statement to him was of a general nature saying that if it was
21 not in the statement, I probably did not show it.
22 Q. Now you've changed from "did not show it" to "probably did not
24 A. I did not show. Yes. I'm supposing I did make a statement of that
1 Q. What you've told us here is that you did show it.
2 A. That is correct, I did show it, that is why I called back in a few
3 days to rectify.
4 Q. And what record do you have to verify or validate your claim that
5 you showed it?
6 A. There is no record.
7 Q. After you spoke to Mr. Obruca the first time on the 15th --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- when you spoke to him the second time, two days later, one or
10 two days later --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. -- in that conversation, what did you tell him?
13 A. I told him I was calling because of the question he posed to me,
14 and he told me that he could not talk to me about that issue.
15 Q. Did you have any further conversations with any members of the
16 Prosecution staff concerning this issue after your phone call, and I'm not
17 pinning you to a date, but I say the 16th or the 17th because that would
18 be a few days after you first talked to Mr. Obruca?
19 A. On the following Monday, I called one of the trial lawyers,
20 Mr. Di Fazio, and after an exchange of initial greetings I said I had to
21 speak with him about an issue. He asked whether that had to do with the
22 time of my employment here at the ICTY, in which I said yes, and then he
23 told me about the order -- they had been ordered by the Court not to speak
24 to me about that matter.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith if there is any specific matter, please
1 ask the witness, but these are the questions I have put to him earlier and
2 he has answered.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have only -- I'm done with that area and I have
4 another area which is:
5 Q. When you were speaking with Witness 4, did you identify from the
6 standpoint of a chronology when he claimed to have seen the individual
7 named Togeri -- or who he identified as Togeri?
8 A. I believe the first instance the witness mentions it was in the
9 shooting incident in March 1998, where he was shot inside a vehicle. I
10 believe he identifies one of the perpetrators as Togeri, but I'm not sure
11 that without seeing the statement. And there was a second incident where
12 he went to a Kiosk or some sort of building within the village, and he
13 spoke directly with the defendant, Mr. Balaj.
14 Q. He spoke directly with the defendant, Mr. Balaj?
15 A. I believe so, but I would have to see the details in the
16 statement. You understand this is three years ago I had taken that
17 statement; I can't recall.
18 Q. I understand. And with regard to that particular incident that
19 you just told us about that you don't recall specifically, can you place
20 us into a time-frame with regard to the shooting incident that you've just
21 told us about, was it within the month after?
22 A. It was definitely within the same year. I can't say when exactly.
23 Q. Within the same year?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Okay. With regard to Witness 19, did you get a chronological --
1 once again, a time-frame using the shooting incident in March as a
2 starting point when he claimed to have seen this individual?
3 A. Once again, I would -- I would have to refer to a statement. But
4 as I recall there had been several visits to the victim's -- to the
5 witness's house in which he claims of seeing the defendant.
6 Q. And would all of that have occurred within, once again, a month or
7 two after the initial shooting that you've told us about?
8 A. I would have to look at the statement. The information would be
10 Q. But you have a distinct memory as you sit here today of Witness 4
11 telling you - and I want to make sure about this - that he met him at a
12 Kiosk --
13 A. A kiosk --
14 Q. -- in the village?
15 A. A Kiosk or some other building of that nature was where I believe
16 he defined as the headquarters or something, but I can't -- I would have
17 to look at the statement --
18 Q. Did he tell you the nature of the conversation that he had with
19 him -- because you said that he had this conversation with Idriz Balaj.
20 Did he tell you the nature of the conversation that he had with him at
21 that time? What they talked about?
22 A. I believe it was to obtain a document of some sort to allow his
23 passage through areas.
24 Q. I see.
25 A. But I don't know.
1 Q. That he went -- that he went and had a direct conversation with
2 Idriz Balaj to get a document to move from one place to another?
3 A. I can't recall. That's my -- that's my recollection at this
4 moment. I would have to see what's in the statement once again.
5 Q. Okay. He used that, as a matter of fact, in his conversation with
6 you as a basis for his identification of Idriz Balaj, correct, that he had
7 spoken to him personally for purposes of obtaining travel documents;
9 A. That was one of --
10 Q. One of a number?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. But that certainly wasn't one of the instances in which he relied
13 upon and you relied upon in your conversation with him about his ability
14 to identify Idriz Balaj as the perpetrator of various criminal activity?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You learned that at least one of these young men, and I believe
17 that would have been Witness 19, said that he saw him - and by "him," I
18 mean Idriz Balaj - driving around the village a lot; right?
19 A. I'm -- I'm not sure if it was 19 or 4.
20 Q. But --
21 A. -- but, yes, yes, that does ring a bell.
22 Q. And the information that you received with regard to when he was
23 driving the village a lot, and by that I mean Idriz Balaj, was that once
24 again in the month of early March and April?
25 A. I wouldn't be able to put a date on it.
1 Q. Was that the kind of information that you would have pursued, when
2 things happened?
3 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand.
4 Q. By that I mean if he said he saw Idriz Balaj driving around in a
5 vehicle at some point in time, is that information that you try to find
6 out when he saw that happen, for example, March or April or May or June or
7 July or whatever month it would be?
8 A. I believe I would have.
9 Q. And that would be information once again that would either be
10 contained in your log or in one of these young men's statements?
11 A. I believe so.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, what is not in the statement is not in
13 the statement; what is not in the testimony is not in the testimony.
14 There is no need to repeatedly point at matters that are not in the
15 statement and would have been in the statement if ....
16 Yes? Please proceed.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH:
18 Q. After you had learned that Witness 4 had seen Idriz Balaj on
19 television, did you consult with a team legal advisor, as per standard
20 operating procedure, to make a determination if an identification as
21 opposed to recognition had occurred and whether or not it would be
22 appropriate to show or to do anything further with regard to a
24 A. I believe I didn't.
25 Q. Sorry?
1 A. I believe I didn't.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have no further questions.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Mr. Harvey.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:
7 Q. Mr. Lorenzo Quiroz, my name is Richard Harvey and I represent
8 Mr. Lahi Brahimaj in this case. I would like to ask you a few questions?
9 MR. HARVEY: Could we have P365 on the screen.
10 Q. And while we're waiting for this to come up let me ask you this:
11 Mr. Guy-Smith has put to you the identification guide-lines with which you
12 say you are familiar; correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. One of those guide-lines, as you're putting together the
15 photo-boards, is that you should use photographs of the same size and
16 similar quality, all gloss or all matte finish, all colour or all
17 monochrome, similar levels of exposure, light versus dark; nothing in the
18 background to make any photographs stand out; and photographs of the same
19 era. Do you accept that that is one of the guide-lines?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I'd like you to look, please, at -- we can see this photo-board
22 now, at number 8, the bottom right-hand corner is the photograph of
23 Mr. Brahimaj. Obviously we are looking at what is probably a photocopy of
24 a photocopy, and therefore this would be different from the original
25 photo-board that you actually showed to witnesses; correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. The best version of this that I have seen - and I'd like you to
3 help me with this if you can - the photograph of Mr. Brahimaj appears to
4 me to be of a grainier quality than the others, and I'd just like to ask
5 you whether there might be a reason for that appearance.
6 As you see my client is sitting in the dock behind me, he's
7 wearing glasses. Do you recall if possibly the original photograph that
8 was used here may have had to be doctored in order to remove the
9 appearance of glasses so that it was -- would be easier to create a
10 photo-board that would be of enough similar-looking characters. Can you
11 recall that?
12 A. The photograph of the defendant, Mr. Lahi Brahimaj, originated
13 from one of the UNMIK police files. It's -- indeed was -- it's not colour
14 as the others were, because it was the only photograph we had. There were
15 no glasses on the photograph so that's not been touched. What's been
16 altered is the other photographs which were initially in colour and put
17 into black and white trying to adjust to the degree possible.
18 Q. I see. So there may be -- that may account for some difference in
19 appearance between the other seven and Mr. Brahimaj's photograph?
20 A. The other seven were taken from the KPC database and
21 Mr. Brahimaj's photograph was taken from a different source.
22 Q. Thank you. I'd now like to move to another aspect of the
23 identification guide-lines, and that is this: You're instructed: Do not
24 comment on what the witness has said or done. You accept that that is a
25 very important aspect of the way in which photo-boards are shown to
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And would you also agree that it would be quite wrong once a
4 witness has picked out somebody from a photo-board and said, That is the
5 person I know as X, to say to them, Well, in fact his name isn't X, it's
7 A. I would agree, that's wrong.
8 Q. There's also another instruction: "Do not say -- do not do or say
9 anything which could be interpreted as influencing the witness or drawing
10 attention to any particular photograph."
11 Now, while you were conducting investigations, you're obviously
12 looking to identify suspects; right? Yes?
13 A. Yes, yes.
14 Q. But you're also from time to time, particularly in an
15 investigation of this nature, looking to identify other victims through
16 the witness that you're questioning. Do you follow what I'm asking?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. So, in other words, if somebody said, I was held in a place
19 together with two or three other people for a number of days, you would be
20 interested in trying to identify who those two or three other people were;
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And you would show witnesses photographs of people that you
24 thought might be the victims who had been held with them; correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Are there any procedures that you are supposed to use when showing
2 photographs of victims as opposed to suspects?
3 A. I'm unaware of that.
4 Q. Are there any guide-lines on whether or not you should tell a
5 witness, This is somebody who may well have been in the same place with
6 you. Can you see if you can recognise this photograph? I'm giving you a
7 general question, but would that be something that you would normally do?
8 A. I do not recall any guide-lines for victims identifications.
9 Q. Are there any guide-lines at all about the risks of bolstering a
10 witness's recollection by perhaps suggesting that they ought to recognise
11 a particular photograph?
12 A. I don't recall any of these guide-lines.
13 Q. Would you as an investigator have a concern that that would be a
14 risky thing to do?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, I'd like to move to another -- to an area that
17 you haven't been asked about at all, and that is the audio interview that
18 you conducted with my client, Mr. Brahimaj, on the 6th of December, 2004.
19 You recall that you conducted that interview?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Just a couple of questions on that. That interview took place on
22 a Monday. Do you recall that?
23 A. I can't remember what day of the week.
24 Q. Do you recall that you had asked that he should come in for an
25 interview over the weekend, you had sent a message asking him to come in
1 for an interview on the Monday. Does that jog your recollection at all?
2 A. I remember leaving a message or calling or somehow getting in
3 touch, if not with the defendant with one of his representatives or --
4 Q. With his brother perhaps --
5 A. It could be, may well could be. And asked for Mr. Brahimaj to
6 come in. And I was informed that he could not because of medical reasons,
7 but he later did show up at some other stage. I see you say on the 6th of
8 the December, it may well have been that day.
9 Q. What I'm going to suggest to you is this is what happened: You
10 called, you notified his brother that you wanted to interview
11 Lahi Brahimaj. You were told that he was actually in Albania at that time
12 receiving medical treatment, but in fact he cut that treatment short and
13 came straight to see you first thing on the Monday. Does that accord with
14 your recollection?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you, sir. Now, you of course gave him very properly all of
17 the warnings that you were obliged to give him that he did not need to
18 answer your questions, that you were interviewing him as a suspect, and
19 I'm not going to rehearse the whole lot, but there's no criticism of the
20 way in which you gave him those warnings. And would you agree that he did
21 cooperate with you by answering most of your initial questions and by
22 doing so, of course, without requesting legal advice at that point?
23 A. He did, in fact, answer the initial questions.
24 Q. And once you started to get into specifics of what his home was
25 used for and who else was on the General Staff, et cetera, at that point
1 he said he would exercise his right to remain silent and you then, very
2 properly, terminated the interview?
3 A. Yes, that is correct.
4 Q. The point that I want to come to with you is that he had no
5 hesitation at all about agreeing with you that he had been in the KLA;
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. He told you that he had joined in 1994; correct?
9 A. I do not recall the specifics of the interview, but it would be
10 what's on tape, yes.
11 Q. He told you that he had served on the General Staff of the KLA.
12 You recall that?
13 A. I believe so.
14 Q. And he told you that he was in its finance sector, the finance
15 department of the KLA's General Staff?
16 A. Maybe -- if that's what the record says, that's definitely what
17 the defendant says.
18 Q. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I've got it wrong. But finally
19 something that may have stuck in your mind, he described himself as an
20 office officer as opposed to a commanding officer. Do you recall that?
21 A. I would -- I would have to listen to the tape.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. But if that is what the tape says, yes.
24 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions. Thank you, Mr. Quiroz.
25 I have nothing else.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 Mr. Re, any re-examination?
3 MR. RE: No re-examination.
4 JUDGE ORIE: I would have one or two questions for you.
5 Questioned by the Court:
6 JUDGE ORIE: The first is in relation to a statement the Chamber
7 has. It's not in evidence, but I'll read the relevant portion,
8 Mr. Lorenzo Quiroz, into the transcript on the 29th of January this year
9 in a statement which you apparently signed you said, and I'm quoting from
10 paragraph 10: "I also did not tell the witness that the suspect may or
11 may not be in that line-up."
12 I looked at the photo-board identification procedure report which,
13 as a standard question, says: "I'm going to show you a selection of a
14 number of photographs and that person," or the person you are seeking to
15 be recognised or identified, "that person may or may not be amongst them."
16 Now, in your statement you say that you did not do what at first
17 sight the procedure prescribes you to do. Could you tell me why you did
18 it in a different way or that you did agree with me.
19 A. I have no explanation, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: But is it true that you followed as your procedure a
21 procedure which deviates from what the instructions are?
22 A. The procedure -- I would show the witness the photo-board, and I
23 would not mention --
24 JUDGE ORIE: You would not draw the attention of the witness to
25 the fact that the person may or may not be in that photo-spread?
1 A. I -- Your Honour, I can't remember. I believe that the process I
2 would follow is to show the pictures without saying --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 A. -- anything.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Finally, you are not able now to tell us whether
6 Witness 19 recognised someone; and if so, who he recognised. Do you
7 consider this to be irresponsible behaviour?
8 A. Yes, Your Honour.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
10 Any questions?
11 Then, Mr. Lorenzo Quiroz, this concludes your testimony. I would
12 like to thank you for coming and answering all the questions. You're
14 Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mr. Lorenzo Quiroz out of the
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I see that Mr. Kearney's not yet back
19 in court, and I know that he's proposing to take the next witness. May I
20 give the Trial Chamber some information in respect of the next witness --
21 I see he's just entering court.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Mr. Kearney, listen carefully because Mr. Emmerson is addressing
24 the Court.
25 MR. RE: May I be excused? Am I required to be here for this?
1 MR. EMMERSON: No.
2 MR. RE: May I be excused then?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. EMMERSON: No mud-slinging, I assure you.
5 As far as the next witness is concerned, it's my understanding
6 from Mr. Kearney that his intention essentially is to have the witness
7 sworn, to put to him a statement that was originally put forward as a
8 92 bis statement but to which the Defence indicated an objection to that
9 form of testimony and have the witness confirm that statement and that
10 statement alone, and tender him for cross-examination.
11 We have had an opportunity over the weekend to study not just the
12 transcript but the investigation file in respect of the Sanije Balaj
13 investigation which contains material and references to this witness as
14 well as a witness statement from this witness. In the light of that, and
15 having regard to the contents of this particular statement, the position
16 that's taken on behalf of the Haradinaj Defence team, with which I
17 understand the other accused concur, is that it will not be necessary for
18 this witness to be cross-examined.
19 Now, obviously, that is a situation which is an unhappy one to
20 be informing the Trial Chamber of at this late stage, but it arises to a
21 very significant extent because the material that has been made available
22 on Friday has been considered not only over the weekend but into this
23 morning and a judgement has been taken in light of that. So with that
24 caveat and apology to the witness for the inconvenience, perhaps the
25 silver lining is that there will be a significant saving of time.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney.
2 MR. KEARNEY: We obviously have no objection to that procedure,
3 Your Honour. We're happy to proceed.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then I think it would be good to have the witness in
5 court and to explain to him the present situation. I take it that the
6 usher already left the courtroom in order to find the witness.
7 It also means now that -- so therefore the statement and perhaps
8 you could use the time -- the statement to be tendered as 92 bis -- 92 bis
9 statement and no objections against --
10 MR. EMMERSON: No objections --
11 JUDGE ORIE: -- admission.
12 MR. EMMERSON: And the witness will be here, so he can formally
13 confirm it is a 92 ter statement, if that would be preferable.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, because the test -- yes, and we have to make
15 him -- he should make a solemn declaration in order to attest to the
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might beg the Court's indulgence and do
18 something which I normally would not do which is to dash across the
19 Chamber to make sure that we're all talking about the same statement.
20 JUDGE ORIE: I'm talking -- if we're talking about the
21 statement --
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- I have a statement which -- date of interview and
24 place: Sunday, the 15th of April, 2007, Pristina field office, Kosovo,
25 interviewer, Barney Kelly; interpreter Gazmend Troka, and one of the
1 specifics is that Kelly - but perhaps he always does - gives with his
2 signature the date again and does that in three layers, 15/04/07.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well. And we're referring to the four
4 corners of this statement, I understand?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Pardon?
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: We're referring to the four corners of this
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Perhaps your expression the four corners of
9 this statement --
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry it's an American statement -- American
11 expression which means that we're dealing with the document itself, and
12 the document itself, and nothing but the document itself.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, then I also take it that there's no need
16 for any further question to this witness, apart from attesting that it
17 is --
18 [The witness entered court]
19 MR. KEARNEY: No, Your Honour, I'm sorry, there is not.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 Good afternoon, Mr. Dizdari. Can you hear me in a language you
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I get Albanian interpretation,
25 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand,
1 Mr. Dizdari, now?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Could you please stand up for a moment.
4 Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of Procedure and
5 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration. The text will now be
6 handed out to you by Mr. Usher. May I invite you to make that solemn
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't read without glasses.
9 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
10 and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Dizdari. Please be seated.
12 Mr. Dizdari, perhaps before I give an opportunity to Mr. Kearney
13 to put a few questions to you, I have to explain the present situation.
14 Initially it was the intention of the Office of the Prosecutor
15 to -- not to call you as a witness, but to provide to this Trial Chamber a
16 written statement, have that admitted into evidence. But when this was
17 proposed by the Office of the Prosecution, at that time Defence counsel
18 thought that you had to appear in order to answer their questions. Now
19 the situation since then has changed because new material was disclosed to
20 the Defence, they were able to study that material, and they have just
21 informed the Trial Chamber that their objection against just admitting
22 your statement does not stand any longer and that they have no specific
23 questions for you. Therefore, this was difficult to foresee for everyone
24 because the Defence and Defence counsel could only conclude studying this
25 new material today; otherwise, of course, no one would have ever asked you
1 to come to The Hague just to confirm what your statement is.
2 Therefore, it is -- has been quite a burden for you to come to
3 The Hague, and now, beyond anyone's fault, at least not at this moment I
4 could say it's the fault of this or that party, but certainly not the
5 fault of the Defence, they have decided they have no questions for you.
6 Therefore, your presence in this courtroom will be very short.
7 You have now given your solemn declaration. Mr. Kearney has some
8 questions of a rather formal nature for you, and that most likely will
9 conclude already today within the next five to ten minutes your evidence
10 in this court.
11 Mr. Kearney, you may proceed.
12 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, thank you.
13 WITNESS: VESEL DIZDARI
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Examination by Mr. Kearney:
16 Q. Mr. Dizdari, good evening.
17 A. Good evening.
18 Q. Thank you for waiting all day, sir. Mr. Dizdari, I want to ask
19 you if you would state your full name for the record, please.
20 A. My name is Vesel Dizdari.
21 Q. Mr. Dizdari, can you please tell us your date of birth.
22 A. 7 March 1958.
23 Q. Where were you born, sir?
24 A. Kosuriq.
25 Q. That's Kosuriq, Kosovo; is that correct?
1 A. Yes, in Kosova, Peje municipality.
2 Q. And lastly, could you tell us the names of your parents, please.
3 A. My father's name is Ibish; my mother's name Sofije.
4 Q. Mr. Dizdari, I want to direct your attention back, approximately
5 two months ago, to the 15th of April, 19 -- excuse me, 2007 of this year.
6 I want to ask you if on that date in Pristina you were interviewed by
7 representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. After that interview was there a written statement made of the
10 statements you gave to the representatives of the Prosecution's office?
11 A. You are talking about Pristina?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. KEARNEY: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that, Your Honour. Was
15 that a yes?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
17 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.
18 Q. Was an Albanian copy of that statement given to you for your
19 review, Mr. Dizdari?
20 A. Yes, I was given.
21 Q. And did you review that document in Albanian for accuracy?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did the document that you reviewed accurately reflect the
24 statements that you had given to the representatives of the Office of the
1 A. Yes, for me it's correct. Yes.
2 Q. After you reviewed that document, did you sign it and initial each
4 A. Yes, I signed it.
5 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, at this time, with the Court's
6 permission, I would like to call-up 65 ter 1396, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, could you assign a number to that
9 THE REGISTRAR: That would be P366, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 MR. KEARNEY:
12 Q. Mr. Dizdari, do you recognise your signature on the bottom of
13 page 1 of that document?
14 A. Yes, I do. Yes.
15 Q. And is this the statement that you signed on April 15th of this
16 year, when you were interviewed by the Prosecution?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Mr. Dizdari, I want to ask you just one question about this
19 document: Does it reflect -- does this statement reflect what you would
20 say in court today if I asked you the same questions that you were asked
21 during the course of that interview on April the 15th of 2007?
22 A. Yes, it does.
23 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, at this time I would tender that
24 document, please.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 No objections? Then it is admitted into evidence.
2 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, the only other item of business I have
3 with this witness is a reading of the summary of his testimony.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I would, however, have one or two questions for
5 the witness in relation to his statement, so if we could ...
6 Questioned by the Court:
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dizdari, there are two paragraphs in your
8 statement. One says that there were KLA headquarters around in Baran, in
9 Strellc, and in Vranoc. You said that you didn't know who the commanders
10 of those KLA headquarters were. And you said: "In Baran there was no KLA
11 prison, but there was a school used for military purposes."
12 And you said: "I did not see detainees there."
13 I read the whole of paragraph 14 for you. Could you tell me when
14 it was or when you became aware of the existence of KLA headquarters
15 around in Baran, in Strellc, and in Vranoc, and I'm drawing your attention
16 specifically to 1998.
17 A. About Strellc, I knew since before that the headquarter was formed
18 by someone called Gani Gjukaj. Then later, some months later, in Baran I
19 knew that the school was transformed into a kind of military barracks. I
20 don't know how to call it, a headquarter or -- I don't know, where these
21 people were staying.
22 JUDGE ORIE: I'm mainly interested in -- to hear from you, if you
23 remember, when it was that in Strellc and in Baran and in Vranoc these
24 headquarters --
25 A. I cannot give you exact dates. I don't remember them. If you
1 write something to me -- or read something to me, maybe it could refresh
2 my memory. But I remember it was at the end of May I returned and stayed
3 in Strellc for a while.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And was then the Strellc headquarters already there?
5 A. They called headquarter the place where two, three representatives
6 stayed and where the representatives -- where the defence of the village
7 was centred. Maybe that is what I would call the headquarter.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But was it there when you returned in the end
9 of May, as you told us?
10 A. No. I was staying in my own home, but above my home at the end of
11 Strellc there was this place.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I'm mainly interested in when. So as
13 you -- you said you returned.
14 "It was at the end of May I returned," you said, "and stayed in
15 Strellc for a while."
16 Where -- what you described as this centre for defence or the way
17 you described it, was it there already at that time?
18 A. In Strellc there was Gani Gjukaj acting as a kind of leader for
19 the defence of the village and that was all.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But was that at the moment you described, the
21 end of May?
22 A. I can't remember when I returned, but when the war broke out in
23 Vranoc we were taken prisoners and we were taken to Peje; and then I went
24 to Montenegro, to Ulqin.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Also part of your statement is -- you said:
1 "There was a KLA presence in Kosuriq. Soldiers were everywhere. I had a
2 uniform during that period."
3 What did you mean by "that period"?
4 A. I mean September.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you for those answers.
6 Has the -- have the questions of the Bench triggered any need for
7 further questions by the parties?
8 Then, Mr. Dizdari, it was a very short time that you were in
9 court. I explained to you what caused this, and I think everyone regrets
10 that you have -- that you had to make this long journey, but that is the
11 result of the material that became available for study only very recently
12 and that explains why you had the burden to come to The Hague only for a
13 testimony of ten minutes. Now I apologise for that.
14 Mr. Dizdari -- yes. Mr. Dizdari, this concludes your evidence.
15 You're excused, and I would like to thank you more than on average for
16 coming this long way to The Hague. I hope you have some understanding for
17 the reasons why you were in court only for such a short time.
18 Mr. Usher, would you please escort Mr. Dizdari out of the
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, what is the programme for the days to
22 come as far as witnesses are concerned? No witnesses?
23 MR. KEARNEY: Mr. Re would be a better person to answer that
24 question, Your Honour. My understanding, though, is that there are no
25 witnesses scheduled for tomorrow.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I suggest that we deal with a few
2 procedural matters, not now because I know exactly what then happens, that
3 the interpreters and transcribers are kept in the courtroom again for
4 another five to ten minutes. We have a few procedural issues, we have to
5 deliver a decision. I take it that you want to read into the record the
6 summary of the 92 ter statement. If there are any other matters, we could
7 do that tomorrow, and everyone now knows that it will be a relatively
8 short hearing tomorrow morning. Tomorrow morning, that will be Tuesday,
9 the 19th of June, and not, as indicated, in Courtroom I but in
10 Courtroom II, this courtroom, 9.00.
11 We stand adjourned.
12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,
13 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day of
14 June, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.