1 Thursday, July 19 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 10.40 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number
8 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: We are today having a videolink for the next witness
10 to appear. I first wanted to establish in view of what I see on my screen
11 that both video and audio are functioning well. Could the representative
12 of the Registry in Pristina inform me whether the audio and video function
13 is okay.
14 THE REGISTRAR: [In Pristina] Good morning, Mr. President. We see
15 the courtroom and we can hear in English and B/C/S.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
17 Mr. Emmerson.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, just before -- excuse me.
19 Your Honour, just before we begin I wonder if I might raise the question
20 of timing for today.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
22 MR. EMMERSON: I note from e-mail correspondence yesterday
23 afternoon that the Prosecution have decided not to elicit the testimony of
24 this witness pursuant to Rule 92 ter. I'm anxious that the time left
25 available to us before the normal time for ceasing today may place all
1 parties under some pressure if the Prosecution were to elicit the
2 testimony orally in full, unless it's to be done in a truncated form. I
3 wonder if we might raise the issue now to save it arising in a
4 concertina'd form in the testimony.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think the message from the Chamber, Mr. Di Fazio,
6 was that in view of the time -- of course you are free to choose the way
7 of presenting the evidence as you wish but it is the last day before the
8 recess that you are limited to the time that you indicated.
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, if the Trial Chamber takes the view that you
10 would prefer me to use the provisions of --
11 JUDGE ORIE: No. I leave it up to you. The message is quite
12 clear that you should stay within the time-limits.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that. Thank you.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 Now, perhaps to accommodate you, if you would be fully unable to
16 manage within the time and the time you indicated would be one hour?
17 MR. DI FAZIO: I expect ...
18 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, the time scheduled was for one hour, is
20 that --
21 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe so, if Your Honours please, yes. And I
22 think I can deal with that in that time.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you would run into great problems, the
24 Chamber would consider upon a request, and after having heard how you used
25 your time, to consider an additional 15 minutes but not at the expense of
1 Defence time.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I understand that, if Your Honours please --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, perhaps -- usually we take the same
4 time for cross as for examination-in-chief. That would limit you to one
5 hour respectively, one hour and 15 minutes for all Defence teams. Would
6 that do?
7 MR. EMMERSON: There is some pressure of time but we will make it
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 Then, Mr. Di Fazio, I do understand that there are no applications
11 for protective measures for the next witness to appear --
12 MR. DI FAZIO: No, there is none from the Prosecution, as I stand
13 here, but of course I think the Trial Chamber is aware of the notification
14 that I provided to the Trial Chamber concerning certain information that
15 the Prosecution had received from VWS.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I suggest to the parties -- I take it that
17 Defence counsel have also received this information, that is, where the
18 Prosecution has not applied for protective measures, that nevertheless
19 there might be a protection issue, which I would prefer to deal with in
20 private session to start with.
21 Therefore, I would like to turn into private session.
22 [Private session]
8 [Closed session]
11 Page 7140 redacted. Closed session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stijovic, before you give evidence, the Rules of
22 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you
23 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The
24 text is now handed out to you by Madam Registrar in Pristina. May I
25 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Stijovic. You'll first be examined by
4 Mr. Di Fazio, who is counsel for the Prosecution.
5 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 WITNESS: NOVAK STIJOVIC
8 [Witness appeared via videolink]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
11 Q. Mr. Stijovic, it's important that you answer my questions as
12 simply as possible so that we can deal with your evidence quickly this
13 morning and not delay you for any longer than is necessary. It's in your
14 interests and in the interests of all the parties in this courtroom that
15 we get through it fast. So bear that in mind. If you can answer a
16 question with a yes or no, please do so. I want to put some personal
17 details, and can you tell us if these details are correct.
18 Born in Kosovo, in the village of Pozar, in the municipality of
19 Decani, and you lived there until 1998, and in particular your date of
20 birth is the 10th of February, 1966; correct?
21 A. Yes, correct.
22 Q. Your father was a gentleman named Kostadin and your mother's name
23 was Rosanda. You have three brothers and three sisters; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, what your occupation was
1 in April of --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Di Fazio.
3 Is your first name Novak?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber, please, what your occupation was
8 in April of 1998?
9 A. I was a worker, an employee at the factory of pumps in Decani.
10 Q. And what specifically was your occupation? What type of work did
11 you do?
12 A. I worked in the security detail.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you know two brothers named Stojanovic -- surname
14 Stojanovic, Mijat and Dragoslav?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. Do you know an individual named Veselin Stijovic?
17 A. I know him, too.
18 Q. What relation -- is Veselin Stijovic any relation to you?
19 A. Yes, he is a relation.
20 Q. What is the relationship?
21 A. A relative.
22 Q. Yes. What sort of relative? Uncle? Aunt? Cousin? Grandfather?
23 What sort of relationship?
24 A. He is my cousin, my uncle's son.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, in -- in 1998, did anything happen to those three
1 individuals that you became aware of?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber what occurred to them
4 and, importantly, tell the Trial Chamber, please, how you know what
5 happened to them; in other words, your source of information.
6 A. I learned this from their mother, who was at Decani. She was put
7 up at a camp.
8 Q. Thank you. And what precisely did you learn? You said you learnt
9 this. Now, what did you learn? What was reported to you?
10 A. I was told that they were at their house in Dubrava village and
11 they were caught by the so-called KLA army. The KLA took them to Glodjane
12 village, to the KLA headquarters.
13 Q. And did you --
14 A. That they mistreated them and beat them.
15 Q. Did you ever lay eyes on either Veselin or the two Stojanovic
16 brothers after this episode?
17 A. I saw Veselin and Mijat but not Dragoslav because Dragoslav was
18 transferred to a hospital.
19 Q. At the time did either of those two men have any apparent
21 A. Yes, they did.
22 Q. Thank you. Briefly tell the Trial Chamber which of the men had
23 injuries, if it was only one; and secondly, what sort of injuries you
25 A. Both of them had injuries, and visible injuries all over their
2 Q. Thank you. Now, I want you to turn now to another topic, and that
3 is the question of your work. You've told us about your job. In April of
4 1998, did you commute to your work from Pozar?
5 A. From work I went back home to Pozar village.
6 Q. Was that on a day-to-day basis or did you sometimes stay in town
7 after your work?
8 A. I would stay on in town for two or three hours after work when I
9 was not pressed to get home early.
10 Q. And -- and in April of 1998 were you doing or working day shifts
11 or night shifts?
12 A. You mean on that day?
13 MR. DI FAZIO: It's not in dispute I think, if Your Honours
14 please, that an episode occurred to this man where he was beaten.
15 Q. I'm referring to the day on which you were beaten. Now, on the
16 night preceding had you been attacked -- sorry, had you been working on
17 night shift or day shift?
18 A. I was working on the night shift.
19 Q. All right. You've mentioned that day. Can you remember the day
20 that -- the date on which the events we're about to talk about happened,
21 the actual date?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. What was the date?
24 A. 21st of April, 1998.
25 Q. Thank you. Do you know a gentleman named Stanisa Radosevic?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And do you know his mother; and if so, what's her name?
3 A. I know his mother; her name is Rosanda.
4 Q. Did you see those two people, Stanisa and his mother, Rosanda, on
5 the 21st of April, 1998?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Where did you see them and under what circumstances?
8 A. I saw them at Decani. We met there.
9 Q. Did you go anywhere with them?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Okay. Please tell the Trial Chamber where you -- where you left
13 A. We went home from Decani towards Pozar village, and Stanisa and
14 Rosa went to their home, to Dasinovac village.
15 Q. Did that journey to your respective homes involve you travelling
16 together or separately?
17 A. We went together, but in two cars.
18 Q. Thank you. Who was travelling in the car -- in which car?
19 A. I was riding in my car and Stanisa and his mother were in their
20 own car.
21 Q. And I don't think anyone's going to mind if I lead you on this.
22 Your car was a red Yugo and the Radosevics were travelling in a grey Lada;
23 is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, did anything happen to this party of which you were a member
1 on your homeward journey?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What happened?
4 A. When we got to Pozar village, we were stopped by KLA soldiers.
5 They were suddenly in front of us with their guns trained at us, so we had
6 to stop.
7 Q. Thank you. Can you just tell the Trial Chamber -- comment on
8 these issues: Were the men armed?
9 THE REGISTRAR: [In Pristina] [Indiscernible].
10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar, we still can see you, but we'll
11 wait until you give us a signal that the video connection is restored.
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: In the meantime, Mr. Di Fazio, you are asking if
13 they were armed, but that was already mentioned --
14 MR. DI FAZIO: It was. I --
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: If you could ask in a more specific way --
16 MR. DI FAZIO: As I was going over the transcript, I realised that
17 was a pointless question so I won't ask that. Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, has the -- in Pristina, has the
19 reason for the interruption been detected and is there any expectation as
20 far as the time is concerned it would need to re-establish the videolink?
21 THE REGISTRAR: [In Pristina] We have been communicating with the
22 technicians in The Hague and they are working on that. It is something
23 that has to be fixed from The Hague. We still receive sounds, but the
24 image is still not on.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber understands that the line has to be
1 disconnected, then to wait for two minutes, and then to try to
2 re-establish it. So therefore, some patience might be needed.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, just on a matter that
4 doesn't require video connection but may be important -- I don't think it
5 would be important but I just want to alert you and the Defence. We've
6 asked that a copy of the statement be faxed down -- faxed, faxed, down to
7 the place where the witness is in case it becomes necessary. And we hope
8 that our investigator will be able to provide a copy to the -- to the
9 Registry official in the event that it's needed because it's not available
10 down there in e-court. So that's -- if Defence counsel see the registry
11 official being handed documents by an investigator, it's merely that and
12 merely as a matter of insurance, nothing more.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's on the record.
14 The last couple of minutes the only thing that happened is that
15 the Chamber hears some music. In musical terms, I would say, the Chamber
16 would like to have it "da capo al fine." That is, let's start again and
17 let's keep up until the very end.
18 Madam Registrar, is there any -- I mean, the two minutes are, by
19 and large, over now.
20 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer].
21 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar in Pristina, can you now see us and
22 hear us?
23 THE REGISTRAR: [In Pristina] Yes, Your Honour, we can see and
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
2 Q. I was asking you about this roadblock that you encountered in, I
3 think you said, Pozar. You've told us there were armed men. Can you
4 describe if they were uniformed and whether the uniforms bore any
6 A. Some of them were in uniforms, some were in civilian clothes.
7 Those that were in uniforms had the UCK, KLA, insignia.
8 Q. Thank you. Did you recognise any of the individuals amongst the
9 men who stopped you?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Can you tell us their names, please?
12 A. I cannot remember all of them. I only remember that
13 Kujtim Berisha was there as well as Jusuf, whose last name I cannot
15 Q. Thank you. The gentleman Kujtim Berisha, what -- can you tell us
16 anything about his background, what his job was, for instance?
17 A. He is from the same village, from Pozar. I don't know what he was
18 doing at the time. I do know that he used to be a policeman.
19 Q. Thank you. And do you happen to know what his ethnicity was?
20 A. I think that he's an Albanian.
21 Q. Thank you. Following this stop at this roadblock, did you
22 continue onwards?
23 A. We did continue onwards, but not towards our home, but towards
25 Q. And did you go via Rznic and did you stop in Rznic?
1 A. We did go through Rznic, but we did not stop there.
2 Q. Were there any KLA soldiers in Rznic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Uniformed and armed, as they had been at Pozar, or not?
5 A. Yes, yes. They were armed and they wore uniforms.
6 Q. Was there a roadblock of any sort in Rznic?
7 A. Yes, there was.
8 Q. Thank you. And from there, were you eventually taken to Glodjane?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And was that in both cars that you described before, the grey Lada
11 and the red Yugo?
12 A. Yes, it was.
13 Q. And were you guarded with KLA soldiers whilst you were travelling
14 in the car or cars?
15 A. Yes, we were.
16 Q. I just want you now, please, to go back to Pozar. There's just
17 one other matter that I need to ask you about that. Were you -- when you
18 were in Pozar, were you asked by the KLA soldiers anything about
19 yourselves or your intentions?
20 A. They only asked us where we were going. We said that we were
21 bound for home. Then they told us that we could not go home, that we had
22 no business there anymore. And so from that point they took us to
24 Q. Yes. Thank you. All right. Let's turn your mind back now to --
25 turn your mind back to Glodjane, please. Just for the sake of
1 completeness, the situation now is that you've arrived in your -- in the
2 Lada and the Yugo. Stanisa is there with his mother, Rosanda, and
3 yourself; correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Were there any KLA soldiers there?
6 A. Yes, there were.
7 Q. About how many? Were they all armed and uniformed?
8 A. Well, I don't know the exact number. There may have been between
9 30 and 50 of them, I'm not sure. Most of them were armed.
10 Q. Did anything happen to you and Stanisa?
11 A. Yes, something did.
12 Q. All right. Now I'd like you to tell the Trial Chamber in your own
13 words, please, what happened to you and Stanisa.
14 A. When we arrived at Glodjane, the minute we got out of the car they
15 started beating us. They hit us with rods. They kicked us. They punched
16 us with their fists. They hit us with rifle-butts. And this lasted for
17 some time. I cannot recall with precision how long, perhaps some 20
18 minutes or half an hour. I'm not certain.
19 Q. And can you tell us if when you were being attacked in this way
20 whether they -- any words were uttered by the men who were attacking you?
21 A. Yes, words were uttered, but I'm in fact unable to remember
22 everything that they said.
23 Q. Can you remember -- let me ask you this: Were you questioned by
24 the men?
25 A. Yes, we were.
1 Q. Were you insulted, verbally, I mean?
2 A. What worse insult can you have than being beaten?
3 Q. I'm interested in anything that they might have -- I'm not asking
4 about any questioning that might have occurred, I'm interested in any
5 insults or anything they might have said to you whilst the beating was
6 going on apart from questions.
7 A. I don't know, I'm not sure. Perhaps they swore at us, but I
8 cannot remember that with certainty.
9 Q. All right. Now, what about the questioning. Can you tell us what
10 you were asked about?
11 A. They asked us mostly about the police forces, where they were, how
12 many of them there were. They asked about the head of the police in
13 Decani, about the commander of the police station in Rznic, and possibly
14 also inquired after some other people. I cannot recall exactly.
15 Q. You said at Pozar you were told there was nothing for you anymore
16 in your village or words to that effect. Was anything similar said to you
17 on this occasion in Glodjane?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What was that?
20 A. Well, the same thing as in Pozar, that there was nothing for us at
21 home, that there was nothing for us there anymore, and that we should up
22 and leave.
23 Q. Was there any suggestion as to where you should go?
24 A. Yes, there was.
25 Q. What?
1 A. To Serbia.
2 Q. Thank you. During the course of the assault that you suffered,
3 did you lose consciousness or did Stanisa lose consciousness, either of
5 A. I did not, and I believe that Stanisa did faint for a short moment
6 at a certain point.
7 Q. And during this time that both you men were being beaten, was
8 Rosanda, the mother, was she untouched?
9 A. No, she wasn't touched. She wasn't touched.
10 Q. Thank you. Did Stanisa eventually leave the scene?
11 A. Yes, he did.
12 Q. Okay. Just perhaps before I ask him about that I should ask you
13 this: Was there any blood on you or on Stanisa that you saw?
14 A. There was blood on Stanisa and there wasn't any on me.
15 Q. Thank you. Where was he bleeding from, if you can remember?
16 A. It was from the back of his head, I believe. I believe that that
17 was where he sustained a hit with a rifle-butt.
18 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, you told us that Stanisa was --
19 eventually left the scene. Was that to go off and collect some rifles?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Tell the Trial Chamber -- thank you. Tell the Trial
22 Chamber, please, how that came about, how that was negotiated. What
23 happened such that he left the scene?
24 A. They asked us whether we had any weapons. Stanisa said that he
25 had a hunting rifle and that I also had one, so that the two of us had
1 hunting rifles. Then they asked us who would go and get those hunting
2 rifles. We couldn't make up our minds so they chose to send Stanisa to
3 get them, and he went home to get those rifles.
4 Q. And what happened at that point to you and the mother, Rosanda?
5 A. Well, we remained at Glodjane. They locked us up in a small room,
6 in a house.
7 Q. And how long were you there for?
8 A. You mean how long we were locked up?
9 Q. That's right, in the room. How long?
10 A. Perhaps an hour or an hour and a half. I'm not quite sure.
11 Q. During that time did you hear any voices?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. What did you hear and whose voice did you hear?
14 A. I heard my father's voice.
15 Q. Can you provide a little more detail, if you can, please. How did
16 it sound? Was it clear enough to hear? Could you hear what he was
18 A. I think that I heard him say, "Don't throw -- knock off my cap."
19 Probably someone had hit him and knocked off his cap from his head.
20 Q. Are they the only words -- specific words that you can recall?
21 A. Yes, I heard just that.
22 Q. Thank you. You said you were in the room for a period of time.
23 How did you come to leave the room and what happened at that point?
24 A. I don't know, in fact, how we came to leave that room and what
25 happened. I'm unable to exactly describe that. Simply, one -- a man came
1 and he told us, You can go, and we went out.
2 Q. You -- you and the mother, Rosanda. Is that right?
3 A. Yes, that's right, Stanisa's mother.
4 Q. And where did you go?
5 A. We went out in the street. We asked them where we should go, and
6 then someone said, "Go wherever you please." We went to the village of
7 Prilep, which is on the Decani-Djakovica road, and then headed towards
9 Q. All right. Just a bit more detail, please. How did you get from
10 Glodjane to Prilep and why Prilep? Why not back to Pozar or somewhere
12 A. I don't know why we would go back to Pozar because here on this
13 road, the one to Prilep, this was a busy road, and we hoped that someone
14 would come by and give us a ride to Decani.
15 Q. It may be clear in your mind, but I'd like to be absolutely clear
16 about this. You said you lived in Pozar. When you said -- when they said
17 to you, You're free to go wherever you want, why not go to Pozar? That's
18 my question. Now, it may be obvious to you but I want to hear it from you
19 in clear detail. Why not go back to Pozar, your home?
20 A. They would not allow us that.
21 Q. Okay. Now, is that something that was said to you or is that
22 something you thought was absolutely clear from the circumstances?
23 A. They said so. They did say so. They said, "You can go wherever
24 you please, but you cannot go home."
25 Q. Thank you. And --
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I ask: What do you mean by "go"? What
2 happened to the cars?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Stanisa left in his car and he did
4 not return. My car was there at Glodjane, but I couldn't start it. I
5 couldn't start the engine. So that some of them towed us to the village
6 of Prilep, me and Stanisa's mother, that is.
7 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
8 MR. DI FAZIO:
9 Q. In Stanisa's car? That was -- which car were you towed?
10 A. In my red Yugo.
11 Q. Okay. Thanks, thanks, that's clear. Did you eventually make it
12 to the main road between Decani and Djakovica?
13 A. Yes, we did.
14 Q. That's what I'd like to know. I'd like to know a little bit more
15 about that last -- very last part of your trip. How did you actually get
16 the vehicle to that point, to the main road that runs between Decani and
17 Djakovica? Was it towed? Did you push it? How did you physically get it
19 A. The car was towed there.
20 Q. All right. And was that car being towed by KLA soldiers?
21 A. Yes, it was.
22 Q. Who made the decision to stop the towing once you hit the main
24 A. They made that decision. They simply towed us there to the main
25 road and they left us there.
1 Q. Do you have any idea why you wouldn't -- they wouldn't tow you any
3 A. No, no idea.
4 Q. Okay. Just do the best you can. Approximately how many
5 kilometres would you say it is to be towed from Glodjane to the main road
6 that runs between Decani and Djakovica, how many kilometres?
7 A. That is about 7 or 8 kilometres, thereabouts.
8 Q. Thanks. And I think that eventually a Serb policeman found you
9 and you made your way eventually to -- to Decani; is that right?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm now drawing to an end
12 of my examination-in-chief.
13 [Prosecution counsel confer]
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just give me a moment, please.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MR. DI FAZIO:
17 Q. You've told us this morning about some comments that were made to
18 you about going back to Serbia and not being able to go back to your home
19 or go to your home. When those words were being said to you, what
20 language was being used? Were they speaking to you in Albanian or
22 A. In Serbian.
23 Q. Do you speak any Albanian or understand at least any Albanian?
24 A. A little, to some extent.
25 Q. And just go back to the -- what you told us about
1 Stanisa Radosevic going off to get the rifles. Did anyone give him
2 anything just before he set off on that trip to go and collect the rifles?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. What was that?
5 A. It was an emblem of the KLA.
6 Q. And what was the purpose of that, as far as you could ascertain?
7 A. Something like a pass, like a laissez-passer to help him get home
8 and back.
9 Q. Right. And just -- just turn your mind back to the trip that you
10 told us about. You told us you were stopped at a check-point which was in
11 Pozar and you also mentioned a check-point in Rznic. Now, at that time
12 were you travelling through Rznic on a regular basis, I mean in the days
13 before the 21st of April, 1998?
14 A. I didn't go regularly when I had an errand to run, but I do go
15 rather often.
16 Q. Was there a police station in Rznic at the time?
17 A. Not at that time. I don't think so, not on that day.
18 Q. Okay. Well, let's be specific about that. What day are you
19 talking about the --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, before we continue it seems that we
21 have a video problem now on our side.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes --
23 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you still need?
24 MR. DI FAZIO: Five or six minutes. Apologies. Five to six
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 Perhaps it would be best then to have a break now and you then
3 continue your examination-in-chief -- a break would be -- well, let's say
4 until ten minutes past 12.00. Then you would finish your
5 examination-in-chief 20 minutes past 12.00, which would allow for
6 considerably more time for cross-examination. I suggest that we have the
7 break now and have the--
8 MR. DI FAZIO: That's perfectly fine by me, as the Prosecution.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar in Pristina, we can't see you
10 clearly; therefore, the Chamber decides to have the break now, to resume
11 in 25 minutes from now, that's ten minutes past 12.00, in the hope that
12 the videolink is functioning again in all respects.
13 We have a break.
14 --- Recess taken at 11.46 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 12.22 p.m.
16 JUDGE ORIE: At this moment I see no connection with Pristina, but
17 now it appears on the screen again.
18 Madam Registrar, in Pristina, can you hear us? Can you see us?
19 THE REGISTRAR: [In Pristina] Yes, we do, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We can hear and see you.
21 Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Q. And thank you, Mr. Stijovic, for answering the questions so
24 succinctly and briefly. Please continue and we'll finish shortly. You
25 said -- I was asking you before the break after the 21st of April, the day
1 that all of these events happened to you. On that day do you know if
2 there was a police station in Rznic operating or not?
3 A. No, there was not.
4 Q. Thank you. You've described in your evidence today check-points
5 that you encountered at Pozar and Rznic. Did you on your way to Glodjane
6 go through a place called Kodralija?
7 A. Yes, we did.
8 Q. Were there any check-points in Kodralija?
9 A. No, there were no check-points, but there was soldiers.
10 Q. And just to wrap-up on that. Were they KLA soldiers --
11 A. In fact, there were more civilians.
12 Q. Oh, I see. All right. Thank you very much.
13 Did your father report to you what had happened to him on that
14 day; and if he did, can you tell us what the -- what he told you had
15 happened to him?
16 A. Nothing happened to him except that this man, I don't know who,
17 hit him and knocked the cap off his head, nothing but that.
18 Q. Thank you. Did he provide you with any information as to how he
19 got there?
20 A. Yes, he did.
21 Q. What was that?
22 A. He said that they stopped him, like us, in the same village,
23 Pozar, at that check-point; and from there, they took him to Glodjane.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you know or did he report to you if he had been
25 driving a vehicle or whether he was walking at the time that he was
2 A. He was on foot.
3 Q. Thanks. And the place that you were taken to and the place at
4 which you heard your father's voice from another room, what place exactly
5 was that?
6 A. It was at the entrance to Glodjane village, looking from Rznic.
7 Q. Did the -- did the building or place that you were taken to, the
8 room, did it have anything to do with the KLA?
9 A. I don't know. It looked to me like a private house.
10 Q. Do you have any information about any KLA headquarters in
11 Glodjane? I'm not suggesting there was one. I'm just asking you: Do you
12 have any information about such a place?
13 A. I wasn't there. I haven't been there, but I heard that there was
15 Q. Okay. Following this episode on the 21st of April in which you
16 were attacked and beaten, did you suffer any injuries; and if so, what
17 were they?
18 A. Well, I did sustain some injuries, although I didn't feel them in
19 the first days. But later on I started having problems with my spine and
20 I still suffer from that today.
21 Q. About how long after the injury did -- sorry, the episode I should
22 say, did you start to have these problems with your spine?
23 A. I don't know exactly. Maybe three, four, maybe even five months
25 Q. Thank you. Had you ever suffered from such problems before the
1 episode on the 21st of April?
2 A. No, never.
3 Q. Were you beaten -- you've told us you were beaten, but were you
4 beaten on your back on the 21st of April?
5 A. Yes, I was.
6 Q. Thank you. You are a Serb by ethnicity, are you not?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Just answer my next question with a yes or no. In
9 April of 1998 did you know or did you know of Ramush Haradinaj?
10 A. I had heard of him.
11 Q. What was his position at that time, if you know?
12 A. I don't know exactly what he was at that time, but I learned
14 Q. When did you learn later and what did you learn later and from
15 whom did you learn later anything about him?
16 A. Just a couple of days later, maybe four, five, days later or a
17 week, I learnt that he was the commander of the so-called KLA.
18 Q. And from whom did you learn that?
19 A. Well, the stories went around. I can't recall now who told me.
20 Q. What reputation did he have?
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
22 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I object to that question. I think
23 we've pushed this absolutely to its limits with Mr. Di Fazio has already
24 elicited the content of stories which went around that the witness cannot
25 recall the source of. With respect, further general questioning of that
1 kind in our submission is entirely inappropriate and not likely in any way
2 to assist the Trial Chamber.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: That depends entirely on what he heard and how he
5 heard and the sources of his information.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is granted.
8 Mr. Di Fazio, apart from that, the five to six minutes seem to
9 become already a bit more.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please, I have no
11 further questions.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stijovic, for answering my questions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stijovic, you'll now be cross-examined by
14 Mr. Emmerson, who's counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
15 Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.
16 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.
17 Your Honour, I understand that it's unlikely that other counsel
18 will have much, if anything, for this witness just to give Your Honour an
20 JUDGE ORIE: So I don't have to get nervous?
21 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
23 Q. Mr. Stijovic, I want to ask you some questions about the
24 background to this sequence of events. You've told us that at various
25 points you were being asked questions about the police in the area and
1 where they were deployed, and I want to ask you some background questions
2 in relation to that, if I may.
3 When this event occurred, were you personally aware of the
4 incidents which had taken place in Drenica at the end of February and the
5 beginning of March? And I'm referring here to the incidents at Likoshan
6 and Prekaze concerning the Ahmeti and Jashari families, in which more than
7 70 Albanians were killed at close range, including women, children, and
8 the elderly. Were you aware of that background?
9 A. No, I was not.
10 Q. So you had heard nothing about these incidents at that time. Is
11 that your testimony, Mr. Stijovic?
12 A. No, I had not.
13 Q. I want to suggest to you that everybody in western Kosovo knew
14 about these incidents because they were notorious massacres, as they were
15 being described at the time.
16 A. I don't know. Maybe I had heard something, but I can't recall it
18 Q. And the Albanian --
19 A. I cannot say that I was aware of it when I don't know.
20 Q. I want to suggest to you that the Albanian population in general
21 in western Kosovo was frightened of that type of action taking place in
22 the Dukagjin region?
23 JUDGE ORIE: I do not hear any answer.
24 MR. EMMERSON:
25 Q. Can you hear me, Mr. Stijovic?
1 A. Yes, I can hear you.
2 Q. You made some reference in your statement to heightened tensions,
3 and I want to suggest to you that you knew that one of the reasons for
4 heightened tension was that the Albanian civilian population were scared
5 of massacres like Likoshan and Prekaze happening in Dukagjin.
6 A. Well, we were afraid, too.
7 Q. So are you accepting that the Albanian population had a level of
8 fear arising out of those incidents, to your knowledge?
9 A. Well, I don't know. I don't think they had any reason to be
11 Q. I see. You do know about the incident on the 24th of March in
12 Gllogjan, don't you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you know about the fact that a policeman called Otovic died in
15 that confrontation; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And I think another policeman who has the same name as your
18 brother, Momo Stijovic, was injured in that incident. Did you know about
20 A. I don't know. I don't remember him having been there. I don't
22 Q. Did you know another police officer called Momo Stijovic?
23 A. Yes, I knew him.
24 Q. Was he a relative of yours?
25 A. A distant relative.
1 Q. Thank you. And you knew, didn't you, that there had been a major
2 operation by the paramilitary police in Gllogjan on that day?
3 A. I didn't know about that.
4 Q. Did you not know that three teenagers had been killed?
5 A. No.
6 Q. That wasn't you'd heard at all?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Had you heard that police had fired mortars at the houses of
9 civilians in Gllogjan?
10 A. I don't know. I only heard the explosions, but I don't know what
11 it was all about because it was far from my home.
12 Q. You did hear the explosions on the day. Can you help us, were you
13 aware that rockets were being fired from helicopters?
14 A. I don't know.
15 Q. Can you help us about this, Mr. Stijovic. Did you know that the
16 civilian population of Gllogjan fled the village in fear and that the
17 village was evacuated for several days after the 24th of March?
18 A. I don't know the exact day when they left, but I know they left.
19 Q. This was a major assault and you knew that, didn't you,
20 Mr. Stijovic, a major military assault on that village?
21 A. I didn't know that.
22 Q. I see. Why did you think the villagers had left Gllogjan?
23 A. Because we were not safe down there.
24 Q. The Albanian population of Gllogjan, Mr. Stijovic, is what I'm
25 referring to. The Albanian population of Gllogjan evacuated in
1 consequence of this military operation, did they not?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. You knew some of the police officers who took part in that
4 operation personally, did you not?
5 A. I don't know which ones you mean.
6 Q. Well, a man called Drasko Vukicevic, you knew him, didn't you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did he take part in the operation on the 24th of March?
9 A. I think he was there the day Otovic was killed.
10 Q. And did you discuss the operation with him?
11 A. No.
12 Q. He was a neighbour of yours, wasn't he?
13 A. Yes, he was.
14 Q. And you were close friends of the Stojanovic brothers, weren't
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And Predrag Stojanovic or Dragan, as he is sometimes called, he
18 took part in that operation on the 24th of March, as well, didn't he?
19 A. I didn't know Dragan that well. I really knew only the younger
20 two brothers, Dragoslav and Mijat and I was closest to Vlado. I didn't
21 know Dragan that well.
22 Q. Did you know, yes or no, whether Dragan had taken part in the
23 operation on the 24th of March?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Mr. Stijovic, I want to suggest to you that it was after this
1 sequence of incidents, first Likoshan, then Prekaze, then Gllogjan on the
2 24th of March, it was after that sequence of attacks that the local
3 Albanian population in the area around where you lived began to appear
4 armed in the streets and started to organise vehicle checks and dig
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. And the group which stopped you in Pozhare, I just
8 want to be clear about this, when you were first stopped and questioned in
9 Pozhare, were that group, in fact, all in civilian clothes?
10 A. Not all of them. There was some in civilian clothes but there was
11 some in uniform as well.
12 Q. Do you remember being interviewed a few days after this incident
13 on the 25th of April in a cafe by a woman from a non-governmental
14 humanitarian organisation?
15 A. I think so. Yes, I do.
16 Q. I want to suggest to you that you told her that the people who
17 stopped you were armed civilians and that you saw other groups of armed
18 civilians along the road from Pozhare to Irzniq, and that it was not until
19 you got past Irzniq that you began to see men in uniforms. Now, first of
20 all, is it possible that you said that to her?
21 A. I'd said that there were both civilians and soldiers in Pozar,
22 whereas on the road towards Pozar to Rznic in Kodralija village and in the
23 very centre of Rznic there was civilians.
24 Q. And the civilians that you saw, they were armed as well, were
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And were they milling around with weapons, not doing anything in
3 particular but simply standing by the side of the road?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if we could go very briefly into private
6 session, please, and if the registry representative could take the bundle
7 of documents that are in front of her.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Madam Registrar.
9 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
2 This photograph just shown to the witness still needs a number.
3 MR. EMMERSON: In terms of a document number. I think in the
4 light of the witness's answer, it probably doesn't --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, his testimony now is not
6 understandable who is not who.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
8 JUDGE ORIE: So to that extent I think it's preferable to have it
9 in evidence.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: Well --
11 JUDGE ORIE: But under seal --
12 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. --
14 MR. DI FAZIO: I would not -- respectfully agree with what Your
15 Honour has just said, and in the Prosecution view it should go into
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Madam Registrar, the paragraph shown in the bundle which is
19 ID52/0001 receives number ...?
20 THE REGISTRAR: This will be D150, under seal.
21 JUDGE ORIE: And in the view of the absence of any objection
22 admitted into evidence.
23 Please proceed.
24 MR. EMMERSON:
25 Q. I want to ask you some questions now about Stanisa Radosevic. Are
1 you still in touch with one another?
2 A. I don't see him very often, just occasionally.
3 Q. Do you know that he's given evidence in these proceedings?
4 A. I heard that.
5 Q. Did you hear it from him or from somebody else?
6 A. Not from him, somebody else.
7 Q. Have you seen him or spoken to him since he gave evidence?
8 A. No.
9 Q. I want to ask you, if I may, please, in the light of that answer,
10 about one or two aspects of the evidence that he gave us. First of all,
11 he told us that the location where you were assaulted was about 2 or 300
12 metres outside Gllogjan on the Irzniq side of the road. Is that correct?
13 A. Well, I said it was at the very entry point to Glodjane.
14 Q. Just so that we're clear, how are you defining the entry point to
15 Gllogjan, by the first house or in some other way?
16 A. Well, it's not exactly the first house. There were several houses
17 on the right-hand side.
18 Q. Mr. Radosevic's evidence was that the reason why you ended up
19 where you did was because your car broke down at that point; is that
21 A. My car broke down in Glodjane, but it had driven to Glodjane.
22 Q. Yes, let me make my question clearer to you, Mr. Stijovic. What
23 Mr. Radosevic told the Trial Chamber was that the reason why you got out
24 of the vehicles where you did was because your car broke down on the way
25 into Gllogjan. Is that correct?
1 A. Possibly, possibly.
2 Q. And the house that you eventually went into was just the nearest
3 house by the side of the road to where your car had broken down. Again,
4 is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. And the men who were involved in the assault upon you,
7 these were people who gathered around after your car broke down, were they
9 A. No, they were already there. I wasn't driving my own car. Jusuf
10 was driving. I don't know his last name.
11 Q. Whether you were driving or not, Mr. Stijovic, the question I'm
12 asking to you -- asking you about is whether it was a matter of chance
13 that that is where the vehicle came to stop.
14 A. I don't know. I wasn't even aware that the car had broke down.
15 Q. Mr. Radosevic has described the way in which the people at
16 Pozhare, and then later those who were around you on the road into
17 Gllogjan, were behaving. And I wanted to ask you one or two questions
18 about that. He described it on both occasions as a scene in which no one
19 seemed to be in charge. Is that a description with which you would agree?
20 A. That's correct, nobody was in charge.
21 Q. It was a pretty chaotic scene with people arguing amongst
22 themselves about what to do. Is that right?
23 A. Well, I didn't notice them arguing.
24 Q. Was there quite a period of time that you were at Pozhare where no
25 one could quite decide what to do next?
1 A. Well, yes, a couple of minutes.
2 Q. A short a period as that or was it considerably longer?
3 A. I don't know exactly. Perhaps five to ten minutes at most.
4 Q. But you agree, do you, that it was not clear to you at any stage
5 whether anyone was in charge, either at Pozhare or during the initial
6 period on the road into Gllogjan?
7 A. It was clear to me in Pozar but not in Glodjane.
8 Q. I see. You've told us that you were being asked questions about
9 the locations of the police. Were you also being asked questions about
10 whether you, that is, yourself and Mr. Radosevic, or members of your
11 family or people from your village were involved with the police?
12 A. No, they didn't ask anything about me because they knew both me
13 and my family, so they didn't need to ask.
14 Q. Again, I'm going to read to you a passage from the record of the
15 interview you gave to the lady from the humanitarian organisation and see
16 if you agree with what she records you as having said, and I'll quote it
17 to you.
18 "They asked me if we had relatives on the police force, to which
19 we said we didn't. They asked --"
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You agree with that proposition, do you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. "They asked if any of the villagers was a member of the police
24 force. We said none except for one they knew about already."
25 Is that the kind of question that they were asking you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Mr. Radosevic has told us in his evidence that in addition to
3 that, some people were asking which police officers had been responsible
4 for shooting at Albanians on the 24th of March. Do you remember those
5 questions being asked?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, I want to ask you just a few questions, please, about local
8 Serb membership of the police and security services. First of all, you
9 yourself were personally related, were you not, to Zoran Stijovic, a
10 high-ranking official in the RDB, the State Security Service. Is that
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And quite a lot of your close friends, Mr. Stijovic, were involved
14 in the paramilitary police during the conflict. Is that not right?
15 A. Not many. A few of them perhaps.
16 Q. Can you give us, please, the names of those you know who were
17 involved in the paramilitary police at any stage during the conflict in
18 Kosovo from amongst your friends?
19 A. I don't know. Zoran Stijovic was the only one, but he worked in
20 Pristina as far as I remember. So we didn't meet often and we were not
21 that much in touch. As for the others, I don't know who might have been
22 involved. Maybe only that neighbour Vukicevic. I can't think of anyone
24 Q. Just so that we have it clear, Mr. Stijovic, when I use the
25 term "paramilitary police," I am referring to the PJP, Posebne Jedinice
1 Policije. You understand that expression, do you?
2 A. Yes, I do understand it.
3 Q. And is it your evidence then that none of your other friends were
4 members of the PJP at any point?
5 A. Not that I know of.
6 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if I could ask Madam Registrar just to
7 turn behind tab 3 in this file --
8 Q. Where, Mr. Stijovic, you'll see a list of names of individuals who
9 were registered either as being on the payroll or as being issued weapons
10 as members of the PJP --
11 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, is this -- I understand
12 that this is a document created by the Defence --
13 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, all of the supporting documents follow in tabs
14 4, 5, 6 --
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Yeah, I understand that. I have no problem with
16 that. But document 3 is a list created by the Defence, is it not?
17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: It is. I think that's --
19 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, it is.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, shouldn't the witness be informed of that.
21 It is being presented to him as a document.
22 MR. EMMERSON: It's being presented to him as a list of names of
23 people who were registered, which is exactly what it is.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And perhaps we could add that it's extracted from
25 other documents so that the witness knows that this is not a kind of an
1 original document --
2 MR. DI FAZIO: That's exactly what I mean. Thank you.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. That's clear now.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. EMMERSON:
6 Q. We can trace all the original documents, Mr. Stijovic, if we need
7 to because they're also in this file, but what you see in front of you is
8 a list of individuals who are and were registered as PJP members. Now, I
9 want to go through the list with you and ask you which of them you knew or
10 knew well. First, Rade Vlahovic was somebody you knew, wasn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you not know he was a member of the PJP, Mr. Stijovic?
13 A. I know that he worked for the police; and as to his being a member
14 of the PJP, I didn't know that. He worked in Djakovica it seems to me.
15 Q. Stanisa Radosevic, the gentleman who you've been described being
16 with on the occasion that you've told us about in April. Did you not know
17 that he was employed by the PJP during the conflict?
18 A. I don't know about during the conflict. I know that he joined the
19 police later.
20 Q. Well, I'll come to that in a moment, if I may. Do you know
21 Slobodan Markovic?
22 A. I do.
23 Q. Do you know Momcilo Markovic?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know Danilo Stijovic?
1 A. I know one Danilo Stijovic, and this is an elderly man. In fact,
2 he was deceased by then so I don't know whom exactly you mean.
3 Q. Very well. You told us you know Predrag Stojanovic, although not
4 as well as you know his brothers. Is that right?
5 A. Yes, not as well as them.
6 Q. Do you know anybody called Veselin Stojanovic?
7 A. Just slightly.
8 Q. And Ljubisa Radunovic, someone I think you knew quite well. Is
9 that correct, Ljubisa?
10 A. Yes, yes, that is correct.
11 Q. Now, I want to --
12 A. It's Ljubisa Radunovic.
13 Q. I want, if I may, then to ask you about another individual, a man
14 called Zvonko Markovic, a cousin, I believe, of the Vlahovics. You know
15 him as well. Is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. He was a friend of yours, was he not?
18 A. Well, we were not -- we are not close.
19 Q. Mr. Markovic has given evidence before this Tribunal that
20 Stanisa Radosevic was a police officer during 1998. I just want to be
21 clear about this, Mr. Stijovic. Is that not something that you, yourself,
22 knew as well?
23 A. I'm not sure that he was that in 1998.
24 Q. Sorry, you're not sure that he was what?
25 A. That he was on the police force at all during 1988.
1 Q. I see.
2 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that is a mistake where reference is made
3 to 1988.
4 Did you mean to say or even did you say 1998, as you said before?
5 MR. EMMERSON:
6 Q. Mr. Stijovic, we're just clarifying one of your answers. You said
7 that you were not sure that Stanisa Radosevic was on the police force at
8 all during a particular year. Were you referring to 1998?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you yourself take part in any military or paramilitary
11 activity during the conflict, Mr. Stijovic?
12 A. I was only a reservist, but I did not participate in any
13 conflicts. I just stood guard at the Decani police station.
14 Q. Along with Mr. Markovic and his brother. Is that right?
15 A. No, I don't know about his brother. I don't recall his brother
16 being there. And as for Zvonko, I don't remember his having been there
17 either -- in fact, I can't be sure.
18 Q. So just to be clear, when were you called up as a reservist,
19 Mr. Stijovic?
20 A. I don't know the exact date. I'm not able to tell you. I was
21 with them for a very short period, perhaps a month or so.
22 Q. Again, we've heard some evidence about the way the reserve police
23 was organised, and correct me if I've got this wrong, but individuals were
24 signed up to be members of the reserve police and then could be called
25 upon for active when required. Is that correct?
1 A. Yes, it is.
2 Q. So I just want to be clear. When were you first signed up to be a
3 member of the reserve police; that is to say, I'm not asking when you were
4 called up for active duty. When did you first sign up and join the
5 reserve police?
6 A. I don't know the exact date.
7 Q. Well --
8 A. I was never active, on the active force.
9 Q. Just listen, if you can, and see if you can help us. Were you
10 signed up as a member of the reserve police at the beginning of 1998?
11 A. I don't know. I believe it was in 1999.
12 Q. I see. So on the occasion when you were stopped in Pozhare,
13 Mr. Stijovic, were you already a member of the reserve police then, yes or
15 A. No, I wasn't.
16 Q. And the active duty -- sorry, let me rephrase the question.
17 The duty that you were called upon to perform, you say that was
18 limited, was it, to guarding Decan police station?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I just want to put certain allegations to you and give you an
21 opportunity to respond to them, Mr. Stijovic. And for this purpose the
22 registrar who has beside you a bundle of documents can assist you with tab
23 6, tab 7, tab 10, and tab 11, although these are documents originally
24 written in Albanian and then translated into English. Do you read
1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. In that case, let me put the substance of the allegations to you.
3 The first behind tab 6 is a report to the Decan War Crimes Commission by a
4 man called Halil Sadikaj, who describes an incident on the 7th of
5 September, during which the homes of a number of people were looted, and
6 all of the property he describes, including appliances and vehicles,
7 stolen by the police and paramilitaries as part of the September offensive
8 in the area. And amongst those listed as taking part in that operation
9 are Novak Vlahovic, Mika Vlahovic, Goran Vlahovic, Stanisa Radosevic,
10 Novak Stijovic, Zvonko Markovic, Bora Jukic, Ilija Ikic, Moma Ikic, and
11 Moma Stijovic.
12 First of all, is there anyone on that list you don't know
13 personally, Mr. Stijovic?
14 A. Yes, there is.
15 Q. Can you tell us who you don't know --
16 A. For instance, Ilija Ikic.
17 Q. So you don't know Ilija Ikic. Do you know Bora Jukic --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The witness also said Moma Ikic.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
20 Q. And do you know Bora Jukic?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. Very well. So other than those two names, all the other people in
23 that list are people that you know, are they?
24 A. Just one second, please --
25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: It seems to be three names, Mr. Emmerson.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes --
2 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, quite right. Your Honour's quite right.
3 Q. The others are all names that you know apart from Ilija Ikic,
4 Moma Ikic --
5 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I may have --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 MR. EMMERSON: [Previous translation continues] ... I think apart
8 from those two.
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yeah, that's correct. I stand corrected.
10 MR. EMMERSON:
11 Q. Were you in Dashinoc in September, Mr. Stijovic?
12 A. In Dasinovac, which year?
13 Q. In September 1998.
14 A. No.
15 Q. Were you aware that your friend Stanisa Radosevic had been present
16 there at a time when remains were recovered belonging to his father?
17 A. Yes, he told me about it.
18 Q. Where were you in September 1998? Where were you living? Where
19 were you based?
20 A. In Decani.
21 Q. And were you in the reserve police by then?
22 A. No, I wasn't. I think that I wasn't. I wasn't definitely.
23 Q. Were you working in the factory still, Mr. Stijovic?
24 A. No, the factory had been shut down. So from the day that I was
25 captured, I didn't go to work anymore.
1 Q. I see. But it was after that, after that point, you've told us
2 that you joined the police?
3 A. Yes, yes. I cannot remember exactly when.
4 Q. Can I ask you this: Did you join the police before or after the
5 back pain onset?
6 A. It was precisely on that account that I did not remain with the
7 police because I couldn't endure it.
8 Q. You told us in answer to Mr. Di Fazio a few moments ago that your
9 back pain began either three or four or five months after this incident
10 occurred. Are you now saying it was when the back pain began that you
11 stopped being a police officer?
12 A. No, no. It was before that.
13 Q. Sorry, it may be that I misunderstood your testimony. You said a
14 few moments ago when I asked you whether you joined the police before or
15 after the back pain onset. You responded that it was on that account that
16 you did not remain within the police.
17 Can I ask you just to clarify your answer for us for a moment,
18 please. Had the back pain begun before you joined the police, yes or no?
19 A. I had already been feeling pain before that, too.
20 Q. I'm afraid I don't understand that answer in context with the
21 question, so let me ask you the question again and ask you, if you would,
22 please, for a yes or no answer. Had the back pain begun before you joined
23 the police?
24 A. Yes, it had.
25 Q. And so can you give us an indication at all, please, how long
1 after it began you joined?
2 A. I can give you a precise answer. At the time the pain was not
3 strong. It was more occasional pain.
4 Q. I see. If we could look with the registrar, please, behind tab 7,
5 there is a report to the Decan War Crimes Commission from someone called
6 Kumrije Sadikaj, who alleges that on the 3rd of April, 1999, in the
7 village of Isniq, police officers were burning houses in the village and
8 stealing from them. And your name is listed amongst others as being part
9 of that police unit. Can we take it that you were in the police,
10 Mr. Stijovic, by the time of April 1999?
11 A. No, in April I was not in the police.
12 Q. So when exactly did you join the police, then, if it was after
13 April 1999?
14 A. I don't know that it was later. Actually, it was before, in
15 March -- May, I think it was May --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, just for the record, you earlier
17 referred to a document of a humanitarian organisation found under 6, that
18 was D20, Exhibit D20, whereas the document you are now referring to, that
19 is, the statement given to an organisation called the commission for the
20 war crimes, is document 1D00/1704, which still needs a number.
21 MR. EMMERSON: Which has not been marked, Your Honour, yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this will be Exhibit Number D151,
24 marked for identification.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.
1 MR. EMMERSON: If we could turn now to tab 10, please,
2 Madam Registrar?
3 Q. This is a record held by the International Crisis Group,
4 Mr. Stijovic of a report of someone called Pren Gjokaj reporting an
5 incident in Bardhaniq on the 6th of April, 1999, in which it is alleged
6 that police officers, together with the army and paramilitaries in blue
7 and multi-coloured uniforms, equipped with machine-guns, pistols,
8 grenades, knives, and armoured artillery, started to shell the village and
9 forced the villagers to leave.
10 You are listed together with Rade Vlahovic, Ljubisa Radunovic, and
11 others, as having taken part in that operation in Bardhaniq. Now, I think
12 you've just told us that you were by then a police officer. Is that
13 right? The date, I remind you, is the 6th of April, 1999.
14 A. Never in my life was I involved with Radovic -- Ljubisa Radunovic
15 or Rade Vlahovic. Moreover, I wasn't involved with anyone else either,
16 and as long as I served on the police force at all I just guarded
18 Q. I see. I want, finally, if I may, to return to the incident that
19 took place on the outskirts of Gllogjan. I'm going to suggest to you that
20 it was clear to you that the reason why you and Stanisa Radosevic were
21 being singled out in that incident was because the people who were
22 assaulting you thought that you were connected with the police. It wasn't
23 based on your ethnicity at all.
24 A. I think it was quite the opposite.
25 Q. Well, very well. Let me just test that with you, if I may, for a
1 moment, please. Because if I have the position correctly from the
2 testimony that you've given and the statements that you've made there were
3 a total of six people of Serbian ethnicity who were detained at the
4 crossroads at Pozhare. I just want to run through it with you, if I may.
5 Of the group that you were with, you've told us, first of all, that
6 Mrs. Radosevic was not ill-treated. That's correct, isn't it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, Stanisa Radosevic has given evidence that during the course
9 of this incident one of the men who was present and was holding a sniper
10 rifle during this assault asked him, "Is this your mother?" And when he
11 replied that it was. The man said, "Then she is my mother, too." And he
12 told everybody present to leave her alone. Do you remember one of the men
13 who was there saying that this lady who was clearly a Serb was his mother,
15 A. I haven't heard of that. All I know is that they singled out --
16 they were singled out and put on the side. They were not beaten or
18 Q. And your father, you learned, was also stopped at the crossroads
19 at Pozhare, and do I have it correct that he was stopped with two other
20 people of Serbian ethnicity, Milka Stijovic and Stana Popovic. Is that
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And Milka Stijovic, she is your sister-in-law. Is that right?
24 A. No. She's the wife of a distant uncle of mine.
25 Q. Oh, I see. How old is she, roughly? Sorry, may I put that
1 question again. How old was she, roughly, in 1998?
2 A. I think she was 55 or 60, perhaps. I'm not sure.
3 Q. And Stana Popovic was a neighbour of your families; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And each of those individuals was released without being in any
6 way harmed or assaulted; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And although you made mention of your father having his hat
9 knocked off at one point, it's quite right to say that he was never
10 struck, was he, according to him?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Yes, he was not, or yes, he was?
13 A. They didn't beat him except for hitting him once when his cap was
14 knocked off he said.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, the question was whether it was right
16 to say that, and then the answer: Yes, of course, is clear.
17 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I was anxious that it may --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please proceed.
19 MR. EMMERSON: -- have lost some meaning in translation.
20 Q. Your father was interviewed by the same woman from the
21 humanitarian organisation at the same time and at the same place as you
22 were interviewed, on the 25th of April. Do you remember him being there
23 when you spoke to the lady from that organisation?
24 A. I don't remember, no.
25 Q. I see. Well, she has testified before the Tribunal that your
1 father told her that he was never hit, that he was re-assured that he and
2 those with him would not be harmed, but that his hat was knocked off his
3 head. Does that broadly reflect what he told you?
4 A. Well, yes, something like that.
5 Q. And so of the six people who were stopped at the crossroads, it
6 was you two, yourself and Mr. Stanisa Radosevic, who were picked on?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, do you have any questions for
10 Mr. Stijovic?
11 MR. HARVEY: No questions, Your Honours. Thank you.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, do you have any questions for
13 Mr. Stijovic?
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have none.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, is there any need to re-examine
16 Mr. Stijovic?
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Just a few matters, if I may, if Your Honours
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: It won't take long.
21 Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
22 Q. You were asked questions about the state of chaos or disorder that
23 you observed when you were stopped, and you were asked if anyone was in
24 charge or whether it was chaotic. Did you observe any chaos or disorder
25 when you were initially being driven from Pozar towards Glodjane?
1 A. Well, I noticed that there was nobody who seemed to be the main
2 man there. Everybody was doing as they saw fit, as they pleased.
3 Q. What did Jusuf do?
4 A. He returned to Pozar village.
5 Q. When you were first stopped at Pozar, did -- was there any
6 confusion or chaos about what should be done with you?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How was it resolved, if it was?
9 A. Well, it was resolved that we would go to Glodjane because that's
10 what Jusuf ordered.
11 Q. Thank you. Was Jusuf there when you arrived in Glodjane -- when
12 you first arrived in Glodjane?
13 A. Yes, but he left straight away and he was the one who drove us to
15 Q. When the rifle-butts and the bars, rods, and the boots were being
16 applied to you and Stanisa, was Stanisa's mother present and able to
17 observe this?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. During the course of the beating that you and Stanisa suffered,
20 were there any accusations made to you regarding your membership of the
21 police forces?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You were asked questions by Defence counsel concerning what you
24 reported to a humanitarian law organisation, and part of what you said to
25 them, apparently, was put to you. I want to --
1 MR. DI FAZIO: And, Madam Registrar, it's the document that is
2 under tab 1 or document 1. I believe it's also P5, if Your Honours
3 please --
4 Q. But I can deal with it simply by putting the quote to you. In
5 that document this is what you are alleged to have said.
6 "When we got to the village they made us get out of the car and
7 started beating us. They beat us with bars and kicked and punched us for
8 about half an hour or maybe 40 minutes. Then the questioning started ..."
9 Would you -- is that an accurate reflection of what you told the
10 lady from -- or the person from this humanitarian organisation?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you notice or observe any indecision of chaos about whether or
13 not the beating was to start at that particular point?
14 A. I don't think they thought about it for any length of time. They
15 started beating us straight away.
16 Q. Was Jusuf there at the time this attack was launched on you?
17 A. I didn't see him.
18 Q. Thank you. In that particular document that I've just asked you
19 questions about, this is what you are alleged to have said to the lady or
20 to the person from the humanitarian organisation, talking about the
21 episode when you were taken and locked in a room with Stanisa's mother.
22 "When he left, they locked me and his mother in a room. Two
23 soldiers were in there with us. They asked if we had relatives on the
24 police force, which we said we didn't. They asked if any of the villagers
25 was a member of the police force. We said none, except for the one they
1 knew about anyway."
2 Does that sound like what you may -- or what you told the person
3 from the humanitarian organisation?
4 A. Yes, I think so.
5 Q. All right. Well, when you said that, who were you referring to
6 when you said: "We said none was a member of the police force except for
7 the one they knew about anyway." Who were you referring to when you said
8 that, the person that they knew about anyway?
9 A. Vukicevic.
10 Q. And is he the police officer from the MUP I think in Decani?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And the lady who -- sorry, the person -- I keep saying "the lady,"
13 but do you know anyone named Marijana Andjelkovic?
14 A. No.
15 Q. If -- did the person from the humanitarian organisation who
16 interviewed you, was it a woman?
17 A. I think so, yes.
18 Q. Can you -- have you got any idea of what that woman's name was?
19 A. No.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 MR. DI FAZIO:
22 Q. All right. Marijana Andjelkovic from the Humanitarian Law Centre
23 has testified that she participated in interviewing people, including you.
24 Would -- does that -- any reason to disagree with that?
25 A. I agree, that's how it was.
1 Q. All right. Now, let's get back to what you said to the -- to her,
2 that quote that I just recently read to you. You said, according to the
3 quote that I read to you, that you found yourself in a situation in a room
4 with two soldiers, and those two soldiers asked if you had any relatives
5 on the police force and you said you didn't. And then they asked if any
6 of the villagers were members of the police force. Do you remember that
7 being asked of you inside the room; in other words, if you could tell
8 them -- if you could tell them who was a police officer?
9 A. They did not ask me that in the room. They asked us that while we
10 were outside. When we were in the room, there was only one of them with
12 Q. But -- okay. Fine.
13 A. And another one came and went, never stayed long.
14 Q. Fine. But what I want to know is this: Did they ask you who was
15 a police officer from your village? Did they want that information from
17 A. Not when we were in the room. That was outside, and I don't know
18 who it was who asked me.
19 Q. Thank you very much.
20 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
22 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if I might just ask one supplementary
23 rising out of that line of questioning relating to this document. It
24 won't take a second or two.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
1 Further cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
2 Q. I just want to be clear, Mr. Stijovic, you said those questions
3 were being asked whilst you were outside, that is to say before you were
4 in the room. Stanisa Radosevic had gone by the time you were in the room,
5 had he not?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And is it right to say those questions about the police generally
8 and about who had been responsible for the shooting of Albanians on the
9 24th of March, they were being asked at the time that you were being
10 assaulted outside in the street?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Stijovic, I would have one or two questions for
15 Questioned by the Court:
16 JUDGE ORIE: You said the house you were taken where you stayed in
17 a room for one hour, one hour and a half, was a private house. Were there
18 many people in this house or were there just, as you would find normally
19 in a private house, a couple of persons like parents, children, perhaps
20 grandparents, or were there perhaps more people in that house than you
21 would expect to find in a private house?
22 A. I didn't see anyone inside the house.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Was it a large house?
24 A. I think it has two storeys.
25 JUDGE ORIE: When you said: "I didn't see anyone inside the
1 house," you were kept there with someone next to you. Did you mean to
2 say, I saw no one in the house, to say that you didn't see what you would
3 expect to be ordinary inhabitants of that house?
4 A. Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Now, is there anything you observed which would lead
6 you to believe that this house was taken at random or not taken at random
7 to be brought to?
8 A. Well, I don't know. I was in that one room and it had a metal
9 door and bars on the windows, and you access that room straight from
10 outdoors. You don't go through the house.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Did anyone say anything about where you went? Was it
12 the first house? Was it three houses from where the car broke down? Is
13 there any clue you could give us as to why specifically this house was
14 chosen to take you to?
15 A. No.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for those answers.
17 Mr. Stijovic, this concludes your testimony in this court, at
18 least if I may assume that the questions put by the Bench have not
19 triggered any need for further questions by the parties.
20 Mr. Stijovic, I would like to thank you very much for coming to
21 Pristina and to answer the questions put to you by the parties and the
22 Bench, and I wish you a safe trip home again.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then we can conclude the videolink.
25 Thank you, Madam Registrar in Pristina, for assisting us.
1 The parties were informed earlier that they were invited for a
2 meeting in Chambers. That meeting that was supposed to take place in room
3 M-177 is no longer necessary at this moment and therefore is postponed or
4 perhaps even cancelled forever. This is just to inform the parties about
6 Then it is very tempting to try to find additional time to do
7 procedural matters at this moment. The Chamber, however, even if such
8 time would be found gives priority to other matters. Therefore, unless
9 there's anything of great urgency, we'll adjourn until the 20th of August.
10 I do not see any such urgent procedural matter --
11 MR. EMMERSON: Nothing urgent, but I will, if I may, after we rise
12 invite Madam Registrar to assign an identification number in respect of
13 one document in the bundle that was referred to but not -- does not yet
14 have an identification mark.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, and then I think D151, is there any objection
16 against admission, Mr. Di Fazio?
17 MR. DI FAZIO: On the contrary.
18 JUDGE ORIE: On the contrary. So then D151 is admitted into
20 Perhaps we can deal with the other document right away to assign a
21 number to it have a number assigned.
22 I ask the Prosecution --
23 MR. EMMERSON: That would be document number 10, the ICG report.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the ICG report.
25 Madam Registrar, that would be ...?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, this is will be Exhibit Number D152,
2 marked for identification.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, any objection against D152?
4 MR. DI FAZIO: No, none, Your Honour, and none to any of the
5 documents that were questioned about and put to the witness.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that all the others
7 were in evidence already if I'm not mistaken, but this means that D152 now
8 is in, admitted into evidence as well. We'll not see each other for quite
9 a couple of weeks. To the extent that you'll be in a position to find
10 some relaxation from what happens in this court - and I know that that's
11 not available at least for some of us - I wish you all the best until the
12 20th of August.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: I've forgotten to tell that the 20th of August will
15 be quarter past 2.00, Courtroom I.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.53 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Monday, the 20th day of
18 August, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.