Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 7451

1 Thursday, 23 August 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.20 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. This is case number

7 IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.

9 Before the witness will be brought into the courtroom, I'd like to

10 say that yesterday, when I rendered the Chamber's decision on the exhibits

11 tendered through the witness after Avramovic, I mistakenly referred to

12 annexes 7 through 11 to Mr. Afterramvic Rule 92 ter statement as being

13 exhibits P130 through P134. This, you'll find, on page 7447.

14 The correct exhibit numbers for these annexes are P390 through

15 394. And they should be admitted under those numbers.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Fazliu. I'd like to remind you

18 that you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you gave at the

19 beginning of your testimony. I take it that that's clear to you. Today

20 you'll be cross-examined by counsel for the Defence of the accused, that

21 is, counsel for Mr. Haradinaj, counsel for Mr. Balaj, and counsel for

22 Mr. Brahimaj. Mr. Emmerson, as far as policy for private session is

23 concerned, the same applies as yesterday.

24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Given the approach that has been taken thus

25 far, I think it might be wise if we begin in private session.

Page 7452

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we move into private session.

2 [Private session - confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

20 Q. Mr. Fazliu, I'm going to show you some documents in this file and

21 then ask you some questions about them. But first of all, just so you

22 that you understand what is in the file, behind tab 1 is the Albanian

23 original, then an English translation of a newspaper article published in

24 Bota Sot newspaper on the 15th of March 2005, very shortly after the

25 indictment in this case was made public and, of course, mentioned your

Page 7453

1 name. Behind tab 2, you have first an Albanian and then an English

2 translation of a witness statement made and signed by yourself when

3 interviewed by investigators for the Defence on the 15th of June. Do you

4 see that?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. And just so that we are clear, when you were interviewed by the

7 Defence investigators, you were given your statement in the Albanian

8 original so that you could read for yourself without any risk of

9 translation errors what it was you had been recorded as saying; is that

10 correct?

11 A. Yes, but sometimes there may have been some minor mistakes but

12 generally it was okay, some minor mistakes, I'm saying, but generally, it

13 was good.

14 Q. And I think if we look, for example, on page 6 of the statement,

15 in the Albanian original, we can see some minor mistakes that you have

16 corrected as you went through it; is that right?

17 A. Yes, certainly.

18 Q. That's the sort of minor mistake that you're referring to where

19 you make a correction and then initial it?

20 A. Yes. Sometimes the word was not in the right place, but generally

21 the essence of the text was what I meant.

22 Q. If we look for example at page 10, again in the Albanian, there is

23 a sentence at the end which you have changed. You see that?

24 A. Yes. Yes. I deemed it reasonable to do that. That's why I did.

25 Q. Absolutely. No complaint. The short point, Mr. Fazliu, is that

Page 7454

1 you obviously read this statement with care and corrected anything in it

2 that you thought was inaccurate; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. Maybe not 100 per cent, but most of them I found out and

4 corrected.

5 Q. Thank you. And was the information that you gave to the Defence

6 investigators on the 15th of June, was that truthful information, to the

7 best of your knowledge?

8 A. Yes, it is.

9 Q. And if you were asked the same questions here in court today as

10 the investigators asked you then, you would give the same answers, would

11 you?

12 A. I believe so. Maybe I might not use the same wording, but, of

13 course, I would say the same crux of the sentence.

14 Q. Thank you. And then behind tab 3, just so that you can see it, we

15 may or may not need to refer to this, on the 11th of May of this year, you

16 were interviewed by Mr. Di Fazio via videolink in preparation for calling

17 you to give evidence. Do you remember giving an interview to

18 Mr. Di Fazio?

19 A. Yes, yes, I do.

20 THE INTERPRETER: Your Honours could the witness be asked to wait

21 for the translation of the question before starting the answer, please?

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazliu, before you answer, could you first wait

23 until Mr. Emmerson has finished because the interpreters, if you start

24 speaking already, they can't interpret the words spoken by two persons

25 simultaneously.

Page 7455

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise for that.


3 Q. And what you have behind tab 3 is a transcript of that interview.

4 As I say we may or may not need to refer to that. If we can start,

5 please, with tab 1, and with the newspaper article that appears there, I

6 want just to understand the context in a little more detail, if I can,

7 please. Is it the position, Mr. Fazliu, that in March, you became aware

8 for the first time that your name had been included in the indictment in

9 this case?

10 A. I saw that my name was there, and considered that as deliberate

11 act committed by someone to my detriment or to the detriment of my family.

12 I leave this up to his or her conscience. If I made a statement before,

13 that might have been a momentary statement which shouldn't be taken as a

14 formal statement and not be included in the indictment against someone,

15 but I believe that my name was used deliberately by someone.

16 Q. Mr. Fazliu, can I stop you there for a moment? Try, if you can,

17 just to focus on the specific question that I'm asking you. I'm not

18 asking you at the moment who it was you think may have used your name, but

19 I think you've confirmed, have you not, that you saw that your name was

20 included within this indictment sometime during March; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, it's correct.

22 Q. And prior to that time, had you ever been interviewed by

23 representatives of the Prosecution and given a witness statement?

24 A. It is possible that I did, but not a statement whereby I accused

25 someone of doing something like this.

Page 7456

1 Q. You can see the text of the newspaper article that appears there

2 and it refers to the 34th point or count on the indictment as it then

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 threatened, and only released when members of your family intervened. Is

6 that correct? That was the allegation in the indictment you saw?

7 A. Yes. This is how it was in the indictment, and I read it through

8 the Koha Ditore article. It was accusation there, but after that, after

9 hearing a lot of rumours by various individuals, who are meant to utter

10 only bad words, I wanted to make a refutation of the statement and I did

11 that in two or three dailies, I think, Koha Ditore, and some two other

12 newspapers, and that is a text which was written by the office for

13 information in Kline. And I preferred to explain life here whatever I

14 have with respect to this allegation, because kidnap, that word, is not

15 what happened in reality. To be kidnapped is something completely

16 different of what the reality was.

17 And I think I have explained this fact, this action, the

18 kidnapping is like someone throws you a sack over your head, ties your

19 hand or pushes you to some car, it's different when you are just taken to

20 a place, and you just talk freely and are free to do what you -- to say

21 what you want.

22 Q. Pause there, Mr. Fazliu, because I'm going to take you through

23 what actually happened in some detail, so if you wait for the question,

24 you'll have an opportunity to explain. Now, the next question I want to

25 ask you is by the time of this newspaper article in March 2005, can I take

Page 7457

1 it by then you were very familiar with the appearance of Mr. Haradinaj?

2 You knew what he looked like by March 2005, presumably from media and

3 newspaper articles?

4 A. Yes, certainly, I did.

5 Q. And so, the passage I want to take you to in the English is just

6 below halfway down, which begins on the 24th of May, and in the Albanian

7 of the newspaper article, it is the 4th column, the first full sentence

8 beginning from there. The newspaper article records you as having said,

9 "On the 24th of May, KLA soldiers asked us to go to the headquarters in

10 order to discuss the reorganisation and the defence of the Grabanica

11 village in the municipality of Kline.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. "Mr. Ramush Haradinaj was not present on that day in the

14 headquarters of Jabllanice, and I have never met him or talked to him."

15 Did you say that?

16 A. Yes, I did.

17 Q. And then leaving the next sentence out, it continues, "After the

18 discussions we had in the headquarters with Mr. Lahi Brahimaj, we agreed

19 that for the time being, with the few weapons we had, we could not defend

20 the village of Grabanica. After this conversation, I left the

21 headquarters without any problems or threats whatsoever, neither from

22 their side nor from my family against the Brahimajs." And again, is that

23 a fair and accurate summary of what you told the reporter?

24 A. Yes. It is fully accurate.

25 Q. Thank you. Now, just bear with me for a moment.

Page 7458

1 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I don't propose, unless Your Honour

2 wishes me to, to go through and read into the record every passage of

3 relevance from the Defence witness statement. The answers that the

4 witness has already given would, on the face of it, meet the requirements

5 of Rule 92 ter, but I don't want to find myself so to speak in the

6 position where the admission of the witness statement is in any way in

7 doubt. So what I would propose to do is to ask the witness some general

8 questions but that on the assumption that the answers that he has already

9 given; namely, that the statement is true and accurate and that he would,

10 if asked the same questions, give the same answers, is sufficient to

11 amount to an adoption of the contents of the statement and to render it

12 admissible. But obviously if Your Honour wishes me to go through --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, the statement is here. Tendering it as a

14 Rule 92 ter statement, we have not heard that yet, if you would do that.

15 Of course, when you asked the question on whether the witness would give

16 the same answers, I had at the back of my mind that I recognised those

17 words from Rule 92 ter, so if you want to tender this statement, then

18 we'll hear from --

19 MR. DI FAZIO: I had the same thoughts as Your Honours. I assumed

20 that this was coming.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So we are waiting for --

22 MR. DI FAZIO: The criteria is fulfilled--

23 JUDGE ORIE: -- application to apply under Rule 92 ter for

24 admission of this --

25 MR. EMMERSON: Then formally I do, as I understand Mr. Di Fazio to

Page 7459

1 indicate that the criteria are met, then there is no objection.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio -- well, of course there are sometimes

3 other matters such as whether there is opinion in there, et cetera et

4 cetera.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: I haven't looked at it from that perspective.

6 Could I -- as a general principle, yes, I don't have any objections to its

7 admission broadly speaking. There may be excerpts or points in it which I

8 would like to perhaps reserve my position on. Could I have a quick look

9 at it and perhaps let you know by say the second session today if there is

10 any concerns?

11 JUDGE ORIE: I think that's a good suggestion. It also allows the

12 Chamber to go through it.

13 MR. EMMERSON: And if there are any passages upon which it would

14 be necessary for me to further cross-examine on the record, then perhaps

15 Your Honour would be kind enough to give me that opportunity.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then please proceed taking as a starting point

17 that the statement has been tendered as a 92 ter statement and that no

18 objection as yet have been raised. Please proceed.


20 Q. Mr. Fazliu, before I go to the contents of your statement and the

21 material that is recorded there, you were asked some questions yesterday

22 about why it was, after two days of fighting against the Serb forces in

23 Grabanice, you and your travelling companion did not go immediately that

24 night or in the next two days of your own volition, of your own choice, to

25 Jabllanice in order to discuss a reorganisation of the defences of the

Page 7460

1 village, and you gave certain answers about how late it was and the state

2 of your clothing and so forth. I just want to put those few days into

3 proper perspective for the Chamber.

4 The Serb offensive that you were caught up in on the 19th and 20th

5 of May 1998, how many of the villages in the area around Grabanice were

6 attacked during that period?

7 A. This offensive started on the 13th. The Serb forces attacked

8 Kepuz village from Dollove in the early morning hours. At 9.15, we

9 interrupted the lesson in Grabanica and taking the arms, the weapons we

10 had, we started to get ready to defend the village. We reinforced the

11 guards of the village, and part of the population, mainly women and

12 children, left the village, right since that day and found refuge in their

13 relatives in Lugu i Baranit and other villages. On the 16th, when the

14 burial ceremony of -- in Cescko of Caush Morina took place on the 13th,

15 the Serbs maltreated and beat some three, four citizens of Kline. Ahmet

16 Krasniqi, the late Ahmet Krasniqi was one of them. He was chairman of the

17 KLA -- LDK in Kline. And then the Serbs fired in the direction of

18 Grabanice.

19 Q. When you say the Serbs fired, did they have heavy artillery,

20 tanks, and armoured weapons?

21 A. They had, but on the 16th, they used mortars, sorry, machine-guns,

22 automatic rifles, and shelled the village. They used shelling -- shells.

23 Until the 19th, when Caush got killed. On the 19, Grabanica was attacked

24 at around 6.00 in the afternoon and the attack lasted until 8.00 in the

25 evening, and these created a very bad atmosphere in the village.

Page 7461

1 On the next day, some forces from the KLA came to the village to

2 help us keep our positions, and we managed to keep our positions all day

3 despite the attacks. In the evening of the 20th, all were obliged to

4 withdraw because we ran out of ammunition. This happened after the

5 killing of Faruk Elezi and the wounding of some people who were at these

6 points, among them was also my brother, Aziri.

7 On the 21st, the Serbs entered the village and they set fire to

8 Grabanice and Bokshiq and it was impossible to feel safe and to go back to

9 the village. On the 21st, they killed Sacir Tahiri or Zecir from Bokshiq

10 and an old whose name at this moment, I don't remember. He was from

11 Bokshiq, and then Caush Fazliu was later killed in Bokshiq. So the

12 situation was very desperate. The Serb forces came from Dukagjin [phoen]

13 direction and entered the fields between Bokshiq and Gllogjan.

14 Q. Brief supplementary questions about this please. First of all,

15 during the attack on the 19th and the 20th, were the Serb forces then

16 using heavy artillery or did they have tanks that you saw?

17 A. I may say that -- I can't give you accurate numbers, but I can

18 tell you that they fired some 300 shells in the course of two hours on the

19 19th in Grabanice. During the day of the 20th, I couldn't count the

20 weapons they used, armoured cars, machine-guns, all kinds of weapons they

21 used, and a convoy of tanks and armoured cars came from the direction of

22 Peja, another from a direction of Kline, and they came up to the village

23 bridge which is across the first neighbourhood of Granice, which is called

24 Sejdina [phoen] neighbourhood.

25 Q. Thank you. The second supplementary question I wanted to ask you

Page 7462

1 is this: By this stage, as I understand your evidence, the women and

2 children had left the village and the men remained behind. Can you give

3 us some idea of the number of men, both villagers and KLA together, who

4 were defending the village against this attack?

5 A. I think that we all together defended the village because there

6 were no uniforms for each and every one, so we were together. We

7 cooperated to defend the village.

8 Q. My question was roughly how many men were involved in that process

9 of defending the village.

10 A. I believe there must have been over 60.

11 Q. And were they all armed or did you have less weapons than men?

12 A. Unfortunately, 21 or 22 had weapons and two or three had hunting

13 guns. Mainly they had 15 or 17 of them had automatic rifles and three or

14 four had hunting guns. So altogether there were 21 or 22 armed people.

15 There was also a machine-gun station where Faruk Elezi was killed.

16 Q. And just so that we are clear, how could the unarmed men come to

17 make a contribution then to defending the village? What was the

18 expectation then in relation to the men without weapons?

19 A. They were ready and standing by in case someone got killed who had

20 a weapon, they should take that weapon and use it.

21 Q. And so when the Serbs managed to overrun the village, and you ran

22 out of ammunition, did the men disperse in different directions?

23 A. On the 20th, the Serbs didn't enter the village. This means that

24 they didn't feel safe. They didn't -- they weren't sure that we had left

25 the village. So we didn't withdraw that day. Maybe some did. In the

Page 7463

1 evening of -- in the evening of that day, we withdrew. So the Serbs came

2 into the village on the next day, which is on the 21st.

3 Q. Yes. And again, so that we are clear because Mr. Di Fazio asked

4 you why you didn't immediately try to organise the village defence on the

5 21st, did you know where all the other men were?

6 A. I think I also said it yesterday in my answer to a question, that

7 personally I had no idea where my wife and my kids were, let alone my

8 brothers, my -- their family members. I only knew that we were at that

9 point. We were six people there. One got wounded. One was in Germany

10 for something, for an affair of his. One went to Jabllanice. So there

11 were only six of us distributed into various points in the village.

12 Q. In the witness statement that I've shown you in tab 2, you don't

13 need to turn it up, but you say that it was on the evening of the next

14 day, the 22nd, that KLA men including "Ujku" or "Wolf" and Nazmi Brahimaj

15 came to the house where you were sheltering, that is Tal Zeka house in

16 Zhabel. So would it be the position that it was within 48 hours of you

17 leaving the village that you had the first discussion with Nazmi Brahimaj

18 about trying to reorganise the village defences?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, could you kindly lead to the page where

20 the -- [overlapping speakers]

21 MR. EMMERSON: Where in the English translation is page 4 in the

22 final paragraph. And in the Albanian original, it is page 5, the second

23 paragraph.

24 Q. If you look at page 5, the second paragraph, you indicate that it

25 was the 22nd of May when you met Ujku with KLA soldiers who entered the

Page 7464

1 house of Tal Zeka and then at the bottom of that page, you describe the

2 conversation that took place with Nazmi Brahimaj about attempts to

3 reorganise the village defences. Do you see that?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. So can we take it that it was in fact only 48 hours after you

6 left, evacuated Grabanice after two days of fighting, that you had that

7 first conversation with Nazmi Brahimaj at the house of Tal Zeka?

8 A. There may be some minor mistake here with respect to the date. It

9 might have been 23rd, I think, on the first time, and 24th on the second

10 time but I'm repeating it. Everything I had taken down, the notes, but

11 they were destroyed, so. The text is okay. This is the only minor

12 mistake that there is.

13 Q. The first conversation certainly took place within two or three

14 days; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Now, I'm going to take this part of the evidence reasonably

17 shortly, but you describe in the statement how Ujku or "Wolf" was

18 insulting on that first night, but you say that he was the only one in the

19 group who was making offensive remarks. And you indicate that the

20 commander from Zhabel, who was there as well, was reprimanding him; is

21 that correct?

22 A. Yes. That's right. The commander and Nazmi reprimanded him, and

23 then he stopped saying those words because he used these unpleasant words

24 with me and with my companion.

25 Q. So obviously, his behaviour was offensive, but is it right, and I

Page 7465

1 think you used this word when you were interviewed by Mr. Di Fazio earlier

2 on on the videolink, that the others behaved like proper military men?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. There were soldiers there who didn't utter a word, whereas this

6 person, as I said, was very offensive. Nothing to do with the proper

7 conduct of a military man.

8 Q. Thank you. In particular, the two commanders, that is Tahir from

9 Zhabel and Nazmi from Jabllanice were, in your view, behaving like proper

10 military men; is that correct?

11 A. Yes, yes.

12 Q. And you describe a little further on in the statement a visit that

13 took place the following day, and you've told us about that, in your

14 evidence already, when a group of men came back, including Ujku and Tahir,

15 the commander from Zhabel; is that right?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. And is it right that again on that occasion, Ujku was offensive

18 but Tahir was not only polite but reprimanded him? Is that correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. And another of those present on that second day was a man called

21 and Arbnori Zeneli who you describe as a very polite man; is that right?

22 A. For as long as I saw him, during those two contacts in Zhabel and

23 when he took us in his car, I could say that.

24 Q. Thank you. And when you left Tal Zeka's house in Zhabel that day,

25 I think you told us yesterday, and you say so in your statement here as

Page 7466

1 well, that Ujku left the house by vehicle and did not accompany you to

2 Jabllanice; is that correct?

3 A. That is correct. I didn't see him after that.

4 Q. And you didn't see him either when you got to Jabllanice; is that

5 right?

6 A. No, no, I didn't.

7 Q. And I don't know if you can help us with this, but do you know the

8 real name of Ujku is Pjeter Sala [phoen], or is that something that you're

9 not aware of?

10 A. I don't know. I only know that people addressed him by the name

11 of Ujku and that he had a small beard.

12 Q. Thank you. Just to be absolutely clear, as far as you are

13 concerned, is it correct that you went voluntarily to Jabllanice, having

14 been asked to come together to discuss the reorganisation of the village

15 defences?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And nobody forced either you or your travelling companion to go;

18 is that right?

19 A. I already started to explain to you earlier on the difference

20 between the word kidnapping and going somewhere on your own free will.

21 Personally speaking, I went there because I wanted to. Nobody forced me

22 to go. We were accompanied by Tahir all the time, and I said it even

23 yesterday, and all along the way, we engaged in private conversations.

24 Q. Yes. Thank you. If we look in the Albanian at the last paragraph

25 on page 6, and in the English at the second paragraph on page 6, I want to

Page 7467

1 just look at the second sentence with you. You're recorded there as

2 saying this: "We left the village with the group of KLA soldiers, walking

3 to Jabllanice. We did this voluntarily. We were not forced or kidnapped.

4 And there were no acts of violence towards either me or Naser Lika. We

5 all walked together. I walked arm in arm with Tahir from Zhabel, and we

6 had a normal conversation. We discussed my profession and other general

7 things about what we should do about the conflict." Again is that an

8 accurate statement of what took place?

9 A. Yes, that's accurate. Maybe I haven't been able to put more

10 detail, but they were conversation about the same and the statement would

11 have become longer. But the gist of what happened on the way is correctly

12 reflected on the statement.

13 Q. Now, you describe in the next paragraph how you arrived at

14 Jabllanice, that you went into the HQ building, into a large open, green

15 area at the rear, that you were offered and took some food, that the mood

16 was normal, and that there were some soldiers eating in a big room. You

17 say a few paragraphs further down that there was then a discussion in the

18 room about reorganising village defences, and you say this: "There was no

19 yelling in the room, just a group of men trying to decide what to do and

20 how to do it." Again, is that a fair summary of what took place there?

21 A. Yes. I never heard any screams or shouts apart from the

22 discussions that were taking place or soldiers asking for more tea.

23 That's the only thing which was made -- a request made at a higher tone,

24 but otherwise the rest was normal conversation.

25 Q. And did the discussion end with an agreement that there was

Page 7468

1 insufficient weaponry available to reorganise the defence?

2 A. I think I said yesterday in my answers there were three reasons,

3 but one of them was more significant than the other two. There was the

4 lack of weaponry, which is the key thing needed for the defence of a

5 village in a wartime. The other thing was -- which was significant, very

6 significant, was that Grabenice and Bokshiq, the two villages, were like

7 an island exposed from three directions to dangers. They were threatened

8 by Serb forces on the eastern side, from Dollova. There was a large

9 number of Serb forces deployed on the side of the main road which was 200,

10 300 metres from Grabenice, and from another side where the forces were

11 still threatening.

12 Q. I wasn't going to -- I appreciate that you gave that explanation

13 yesterday. I wasn't specifically going to ask to you repeat it. Is there

14 anything you want to add to what you told us yesterday about the reasons

15 or not?

16 A. I said yesterday that if we were to find out where the rest of the

17 family, we had to find that out first, and then we had to keep in touch

18 regarding the remobilisation, when that was required.

19 Q. Thank you. Now, if you would just like, please, to look at the

20 last paragraph on page 8, if you find page 8 and look at the last

21 paragraph, which for those following the English translation is the first

22 paragraph on page 8. You say there, that during all the time that this

23 was going on, it was daylight. You say you don't know how long you were

24 at the HQ but had arrived in the afternoon and that you knew it was still

25 daylight when you and your travelling companion eventually left.

Page 7469

1 And then you say this: "I think we were the first to leave."

2 Is it your recollection now that you and your travelling companion were

3 the first of the men to leave the discussion?

4 A. In this last paragraph, I hadn't noticed. Something needs to be

5 improved. During all the time it was daylight, I don't know how long we

6 stayed in the village because we arrived afternoon, in the afternoon, and

7 this needs some improvement. I don't know whether anybody else left

8 before, but I think it was me and Naser who were the first, and then we

9 were followed by other people from Grabanice and Bokshiq. Unlike them, we

10 were taken by car to the place we wanted to go to.

11 Q. Yes. I was going to ask you about that in a moment. You go on to

12 say, "There was no problem with leaving. The discussions were ending and

13 agreements had been made, so my travelling companion and I left." I just

14 want to be absolutely clear, you left the building in company with your

15 travelling companion; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. Absolutely right.

17 Q. And then is it right that Arbnori Zeleni, the man you earlier

18 described as having been polite, offered to drive you both wherever you

19 wanted to go?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. And did your travelling companion wish to go to the house of

22 Haxhi Bajrami on the outskirts of Jabllanice?

23 A. At that time there was no choice. I think he knew them before I

24 did. He knew their family before I did.

25 Q. And were there other refugees staying at Haxhi Bajrami's house as

Page 7470

1 far as you could see when you got there?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, could you please elicit an answer to

3 the previous question from the witness?


5 Q. I'm sorry, let me just take this in stages. First of all, did

6 Arbnori Zeleni drive you and your travelling companion to the house of

7 Haxhi Bajrami?

8 A. Yes, he drove us right up to the door step of Haxhi Bajrami's

9 house.

10 Q. Thank you. And is Haxhi Bajrami's house on the outskirts of

11 Jabllanice or was it at the time?

12 A. It's at the entrance of Jabllanice when you come from Gllogjan,

13 and he had houses on both sides of the road.

14 Q. Thank you. Whose idea was it to go to Haxhi Bajrami's house? Was

15 that your idea or was it your travelling companion's idea to go to that

16 house?

17 A. If I'm not mistaken, it was and Arbnori who suggested that there

18 was someone from my family who was staying at Haxhi Bajrami's house and

19 that's how it turned out to be. And that's how we decided to go there.

20 Q. When you got there, were there other refugees staying there in the

21 house?

22 A. Yes. There were other refugees, mainly relatives of the Bajrami

23 family.

24 Q. Thank you. And did you then leave Haxhi Bajrami's house that same

25 day?

Page 7471

1 A. In the evening of that day, I left and went to Maznik, to the

2 family of Abdisula [phoen].

3 Q. And did your travelling companion remain behind at Haxhi Bajrami's

4 house?

5 A. I think he stayed there, but I don't know where he went on from

6 there.

7 Q. Was he still there when you left?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Can you give us some indication or estimate of what time it was by

10 the time you left or is that not possible?

11 A. As I've said I did not have a watch on me, so it's just a guess.

12 It's going to be a guess.

13 Q. Very well. Now, I wonder if I may, please, to ask you to go to

14 back to page 8 of your witness statement and to look at the second full

15 paragraph, that is the large paragraph in the centre of the page, and in

16 the English translation that is the last paragraph on page 7.

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 remained together during all of the events I have described above. He

21 stayed with me as we walked, ate, and discussed things."

22 The question I want to ask you is this: Was your travelling

23 companion in your company, that is to say with you, from the time that you

24 arrived in the village of Jabllanice that day until the time you left him

25 at Haxhi Bajrami's house? Were you together throughout that time?

Page 7472

1 A. There has been some confusion here. We were not together in the

2 house of Haxhi Bajrami. We were together up until the moment that we got

3 there.

4 Q. Let me put the question to you again then. Were you together with

5 your travelling companion between the time you arrived in the village of

6 Jabllanice that day and the time when you arrived at the house of

7 Haxhi Bajrami? Were you together throughout the events of that afternoon

8 and evening?

9 A. Yes. Absolutely so. We were together all the time.

10 Q. Thank you. So I have two further questions, then, if I may,

11 please. Just bear with me for one second.

12 If you could look at page 9 in the Albanian version of the

13 statement, and at the second-to-last paragraph on that page, which in the

14 English translation is page 8, in the penultimate paragraph, it reads as

15 follows: "I have been asked if I saw any rough or ill treatment of people

16 whilst I was at Jabllanice HQ, and I have been asked if I saw a young boy

17 having his ear cut off. Neither of these incidents happened whilst I was

18 at the Jabllanice HQ with my travelling companion. I never saw anyone

19 touched or beaten, and I never heard anything like that occurring." Is

20 that the truth, Mr. Fazliu?

21 A. That's very accurate.

22 JUDGE ORIE: May I ask one additional question. If you say, "I

23 never heard," that goes until when? Did you up until today never hear

24 about such things or --

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the text, and I am

Page 7473

1 saying about whilst I was there, I never heard anything of what is

2 described in the text. So nobody being beaten or no one being having his

3 ear chopped on and so on.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that's what you heard at that time. Thank

5 you. Please proceed.


7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7474











11 Pages 7474-7475 redacted.















Page 7476

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.


8 Q. The very last question that I want to ask you, Mr. Fazliu, relates

9 to page 8 of your statement, and to the second paragraph, which on the

10 English translation is the second paragraph on page 7, which reads, "I do

11 know 100 per cent that Ramush Haradinaj was not present on that day. I

12 must add that I would not have recognised him on that day as I did not

13 know him then but I have seen him since on the TV, and I do know that he

14 was not present on that day in the Jabllanice HQ." Is that true?

15 A. This is more than accurate, and I'm fully convinced that he wasn't

16 there.

17 Q. Yes. Thank you. Those are my questions.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Emmerson.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please just for the assistance of

20 Defence counsel, can I just indicate that I've got no objection to the

21 statement going fully into evidence in its entirely under the provisions

22 of Rule 93 ter.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That is on the record. The Chamber will decide

24 on the matter but of course, since we have not studied this document

25 before, we'll need a bit of time as well to read it.

Page 7477

1 Mr. Guy-Smith, any questions in cross-examination?

2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I maintain the position that I took yesterday,

3 Your Honour.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you. Now, Mr. Harvey, I take it that you

5 would like to cross-examine the witness. Mr. Fazliu, Mr. Harvey is

6 counsel for Mr. Brahimaj. Please proceed.

7 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:

8 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Fazliu. I'd like to ask you a few questions

9 first in relation --

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, just, you are aware that we returned into

11 open session. You're also aware of the public-private policy in this case

12 developed by the Chamber.

13 MR. HARVEY: Yes.

14 JUDGE ORIE: I take it you'll keep that in mind.

15 MR. HARVEY: Very much so. I know it's been a while since I've

16 been on my feet, but I haven't completely forgot.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


19 Q. I'd like to ask you a few questions in relation to Jabllanice. I

20 think you've indicated before that Jabllanice was even as early as 1992,

21 1993, under fairly constant surveillance by the Serb authorities and that

22 people of Jabllanice were under constant risk of attack at that time. Is

23 that your statement, sir?

24 A. Yes. As far as the surveillance is concerned, it may not be

25 compliant with the reality, but it was their intention to find an excuse

Page 7478

1 to get into Jabllanice but they did not achieve this until the middle of

2 the war because the inhabitants of Jabllanice managed to disarm some

3 policemen, Serb policemen, and they never managed to get into Jabllanice.

4 For them, Jabllanice; for the Serbs, Jabllanice, was something which they

5 couldn't occupy for about six years, as it were.

6 Q. And when you refer to the middle of the war, you're talking about

7 1998. Do you recall when the Serbs first attacked Jabllanice in 1998?

8 A. I may say that on several occasions, they shelled Jabllanice but

9 the first offensive, it was at the beginning of July, if I'm not mistaken,

10 and that is in 1998.

11 Q. You had discussions earlier in 1998, you went, I believe, with

12 Enver Berisha, to meet with some of the KLA in Jabllanice and you met then

13 with Myrte Zeneli; is that correct?

14 A. Yes. It was Myrte. There was a man by the name of Rexhep, but

15 there were some others whose names I have forgotten. It was planned for

16 Lahi to be present at that meeting, but we were told that he had an

17 important mission to attend to and he couldn't be present. We stayed

18 there very late after midnight, it was 1.00 or 2.00 after midnight but

19 it's a long --

20 Q. Do you recall in which month that meeting occurred?

21 A. I think it was at the beginning of March, sometime around about

22 that time, which is after the attacks on the family of Adem Jashari in

23 Prekaz and after the attacks in Cheraz [phoen] and Liksen [phoen]. It was

24 between the 5th and the 10th, but it was the beginning of March.

25 Q. And at that time, was there great concern in your village and in

Page 7479

1 Jabllanice that you too might come under attack from the Serbs?

2 A. Yes. There was no village who was not concerned about a possible

3 attack by the Serb forces because during the day, the Serb forces were

4 patrolling the area, although during the night, the patrols were less

5 frequent.

6 Q. At that stage, if I understand your evidence correctly, sir, there

7 was no KLA organisation in your village, as such, you just had a number of

8 members of the LDK who had formed a defence group to protect your village;

9 is that correct?

10 A. Yes. At the time, that's how it was.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'm not objecting, but I

12 take that answer to mean at that stage, when my learned colleague asked at

13 that stage, he was talking about March I assume?

14 MR. HARVEY: Yes, and now I'm going to move forward.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I'm not suggesting that we leave the topic,

17 all I wanted to be clear was -- [Speakers overlapping]

18 JUDGE ORIE: You want to be clear what at that stage meant.


20 Q. Yes, let me just make clear, at that stage we are talking about

21 March through April of 1998, again there was no KLA organisation as such

22 in your village, was there?

23 A. During March, I may say that there was no, or at least I wasn't

24 aware, of any KLA presence, and it may be said of April I cannot say the

25 same thing.

Page 7480

1 Q. When did Sadri Berisha first become a member of the KLA in your

2 village, as far as you're aware, sir?

3 A. I Can't remember the date. I can't remember the date. But I -- I

4 recall that it -- 13th of May 1998. After the first attacks by the Serb

5 forces in the villages including Qeskove.

6 Q. When your village defence, when your village needed defending

7 after the 13th of May, you had assistance from the villagers in

8 Jabllanice, I think you've said.

9 A. Yes. They were KLA soldiers also from Jabllanice. There were

10 some two or three from Mitrovica who came to help in Grabanice.

11 Q. Can you help the Tribunal with how this happened. I can put two

12 alternatives to you, and maybe there is a third, but perhaps you would

13 just like to help us with how this came about. Was it that there was a

14 KLA command telling you: This is what you've got to do, we're going to

15 take charge here, all of you do as we say? Or was it you in Grabanice

16 putting out a call, anyone who has got a gun, please come and help us?

17 Can you give the Tribunal a sense of how organised this was or whether it

18 was just really a question of people getting together to try and help each

19 other out?

20 A. I must take more time to explain this.

21 Starting from 1991, since 1991, my elder brother managed to secure

22 some 12 automatic weapons and they were bought between 2.800 to 3.500

23 deutschmarks, and they were distributed among members of families which

24 were more secure, from our point of view, to look after these weapons.

25 And from then onwards, we organised our village defences up until

Page 7481

1 1998, and from 1998, as I said yesterday, there were two groups within a

2 period of 10 days or two weeks, they went from -- left Grabanice to go to

3 Albania to bring weapons back and that was done in coordination with the

4 KLA headquarters in Jabllanice. Part of those weapons were given out to

5 soldiers of -- KLA soldiers in Kepuz, in Cermjan, and that was used for

6 reinforcing those points, and that happened just before and up until the

7 moment that the front was opened in Grabanice too.

8 Q. My question, sir, was more along the lines of did you consider

9 yourselves under orders from the KLA or just working in cooperation with

10 other members of the KLA who were in Jabllanice?

11 A. I must explain that. Those six soldiers who stayed with us for

12 three, four days, and they stayed in my house, in the oda of men, it was

13 me personally who sewed the KLA emblems on their caps. And if the

14 otherwise was true, I don't know how I would have said that, but for me

15 there was no problem in doing that.

16 Q. Maybe I'm not making myself clear, but let's put it this way: Was

17 there any tension between LDK and KLA or did you all get along fine

18 together?

19 A. Everything was coordinated between the two sides.

20 Q. There was no hostility between the people of Grabanice and the

21 people of Jabllanice between LDK and KLA?

22 A. There may have been people like Ujku, for example, but otherwise,

23 on the whole, it was okay.

24 Q. Thank you. Also we know at some point that the -- there were

25 Serbs in Grabanice who chose to leave the village. Was pressure put on

Page 7482

1 them to leave, or did they leave of their own free will?

2 A. I must explain here that from Grabanice, no one pushed the Serbs

3 out of the village. One single family, the Rajlovic family, they lived in

4 Bokshiq, they left voluntarily, and they passed through Grabanice. Nobody

5 caused any problems to them. In fact, the KLA soldiers accompanied,

6 escorted them, and they did not create any problems for them.

7 They had one or two children with them. They had a family member

8 who was a policeman. And no problems were created for them. They were

9 escorted through the village, out of the village, without any problems.

10 Q. Thank you, sir.

11 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I note the time. I don't know when you

12 want to take the break. This would be a --

13 JUDGE ORIE: It's usually after one hour and a half, but we

14 started a little bit over quarter past 2. If this is a suitable moment

15 for you, it's fine as far as the Chamber is concerned.

16 MR. HARVEY: Fine.

17 JUDGE ORIE: We'll have a break and we'll resume at five minutes

18 past 4.00.

19 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.

20 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, you may proceed.


23 Q. Mr. Fazliu, there was a mill in Grabanice, wasn't there?

24 A. Yes. It is even now there.

25 Q. And that mill back in 1998 serviced a lot of villages in the

Page 7483

1 surrounding area, people came from different villages to have their corn

2 ground up at the mill in Grabanice; is that correct?

3 A. Yes. It's been offering its services until the outbreak of the

4 war in Grabanice. Then it was -- it didn't operate during the wartime and

5 then after the war, it was reconstructed.

6 Q. So the mill shut down. Was that because the electricity supply

7 was cut off or because it was just not safe to go there?

8 A. Both, but mostly because of lack of electricity. We didn't a

9 power generator at that time, so we had to interrupt work.

10 Q. Was there just the one mill or more than one mill?

11 A. Some other family had its own mill, but this mill we had serviced

12 many other people. The entire locality, I would say. Whoever wanted to

13 have its corn ground brought it there or to turn the corn into fodder for

14 the animals.

15 Q. When you say the mill shut down at the outbreak of the war, can

16 you put an approximate date on that? Was that as early as the attack on

17 Kapuz on the 13th of May or later or before then, if you recall?

18 A. If I am not mistaken, upon the attack against Kapuz and Ceskove

19 the mill shut down.

20 Q. Again, you put that at the 13th of May; is that correct?

21 A. Yes. I think so, around that date

22 Q. Thank you. I now want to come to the time when you were walking

23 together with your travelling companion from Grabanice and you met

24 Mr. Lahi Brahimaj?

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, we have dealt with those portions of

Page 7484

1 the -- I would say the journey in private session until now.

2 MR. HARVEY: Yes, and I'm about to ask that we should go into

3 private session.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I anticipated that you would like to ask that.

5 MR. HARVEY: Thank you.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could we go into private session?

7 [Private session - confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Please proceed,

10 Mr. Harvey.


12 Q. You I think told us that your brother had been wounded on the 21st

13 of May. Is that your brother Hazir?

14 A. He was wounded on the 20th of May.

15 Q. I beg your pardon. He was taken after he was wounded to

16 Jabllanice; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And he was taken to the clinic or ambulance that was in the house

19 of Myftari Brahimaj; is that correct?

20 A. I don't know to whose house he was taken. I only know that it was

21 a make-shift hospital in Jabllanice where all wounded were treated.

22 Q. Also, there was a man called Vesel Berisha, who was very badly

23 wounded in Grabanice; isn't that correct?

24 A. Yes. He was wounded too but he was wounded as a result of a shell

25 in the street, a little far away from our home.

Page 7485

1 Q. And do you recall that he was taken initially to Jabllanice but

2 that his injuries were so serious that he had to be transported to Irzniq

3 to the hospital there?

4 A. I heard that. I heard that his life was this in peril because he

5 was gravely wounded. To this day he's suffering from that wound as a

6 result of that shell.

7 Q. It's in connection that I want to ask you -- in connection with

8 that that I want to ask you about your meeting with Lahi Brahimaj on the

9 road. You've told us that Lahi was leaving Jabllanice and driving in the

10 direction of Gllogjan and Peja; is that correct?

11 A. I haven't said that he was -- he set out in the direction of

12 Gllogjan. I only said that he was in a car, in a vehicle, together with

13 another soldier, and that he stopped the car and he greeted us quite

14 normally, and sincerely, and that he asked us where we were going and that

15 we told him, and that he asked us if we could hand over the weapon because

16 he said, "We are short of weapons in the front line."

17 So he kindly asked us to surrender the automatic rifle, which I

18 did, and then I asked him, that when I needed the weapon he should bring

19 it back to me, and this is what happened. My companion also handed over

20 two hand grenades he had on him. I didn't know he had them in his

21 possession.

22 Q. What I wanted to ask you about, let's see if you remember this or

23 not, do you recall that there were two vehicles; that Lahi was in a jeep

24 and that in fact, Vesel Berisha was being carried in the vehicle in front?

25 Do you recall that?

Page 7486

1 A. As far as I know, I saw that he was in one car, and I saw only one

2 car. He was with another friend. I didn't see any other vehicle, at

3 least not at the moment that we had that conversation with him and then we

4 went on our way.

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 Q. You, in Tal's house, you were staying in his oda with the rest of

24 the men, correct?

25 A. Yes, we were staying in the men's oda.

Page 7487

1 Q. And you were there for a total of three days approximately; is

2 that right, two to three days?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. And during that time did you simply stay in that one room the

5 whole time, or did you mover around Tal's farm and premises?

6 A. We stayed in the oda, in the room, during all the time, even

7 though I had offered my services to the owner. I had offered to help him

8 if he needed us because it was a spring time and he might need our help,

9 but he insisted that we stay in that room all the time, and this is what

10 we did, myself, my travelling companion, and some other persons who were

11 sheltering there.

12 Q. And when the soldiers, the KLA soldiers, came from Jabllanice and

13 from Zhabel, they talked to all of you men who were there, who had been

14 involved in the defence of Grabanice, right?

15 A. They didn't talk with all of them. Because the first time they

16 stayed very briefly, a total of ten minutes. I don't think it was longer

17 than that, and it was some brief conversations that took place during

18 those ten minutes.

19 Q. And the second time, did they talk with more of the men who were

20 there?

21 A. The second time when Ujku came to the antechamber of that room, it

22 was only myself and my travelling companion present in the room. Some

23 others were downstairs.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7488

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 Q. Coming back to your travelling companion, you recall that you were

17 asked -- you had a conversation by videolink with Mr. Di Fazio from the

18 Office of the Prosecutor on the 11th of May this year?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And do you recall telling him that the last time you had seen your

21 travelling companion was about two years ago or something like that?

22 A. I may say now that maybe it was three years ago when I saw him

23 last. Even the first time I said around two years, but now I may say that

24 it was three years ago that I saw him for the first time, and I have no

25 clue as to where he is. Before he left the village, he used to say that I

Page 7489

1 will go to America. This is something that I remember.

2 Q. Yes. I'm looking at page, for those who are following the

3 transcript, that we have at page 37, at the answers that you gave to

4 Mr. Di Fazio there, and it's at the bottom two-thirds of the way down, and

5 Mr. Di Fazio was asking you about the big lie that Naser -- that your

6 travelling companion had been telling. You recall him asking you about

7 the big lie?

8 A. I wouldn't wish to speculate. I don't want to insult anyone. I

9 never heard of anyone else, but based on the question posed of me by

10 Mr. Di Fazio, I came to the conclusion that when I was asked, the moment

11 that I personally left the headquarters of KLA in Jabllanice, whether

12 Naser was left behind, I thought that this was a big lie because both of

13 us left at the same time and that Naser didn't remain behind, and I still

14 abide by this. It's not true that Naser remained behind. Both of us left

15 at the same time and got into Arbnori's car.

16 Q. The part of the conversation with Mr. Di Fazio that I wanted to

17 draw to your attention was where you told him this: "The main thing he

18 was talking about was how to get abroad, how to get documents, and things

19 about that nature." Was that something that Naser seemed -- sorry, your

20 travelling companion seemed to be very concerned about, he wanted to find

21 some way to get documents so that he could travel abroad?

22 A. After the war, with his first wife, he had an opportunity, because

23 I had some connections with some relief organisations, contributing to the

24 reconstruction of schools, and I contacted a person called Paula [phoen].

25 She managed to send his first wife to Italy for treatment, but she died,

Page 7490

1 unfortunately, his first wife. He remarried and then he worked for a

2 while in Peja. I'm not sure whether he worked for KFOR or I don't know.

3 And then all the time he kept saying that I'm trying to get my papers in

4 order to go somewhere abroad, in America or elsewhere. That was what I

5 heard from him until the last moment that I saw him.

6 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much, Mr. Fazliu.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harvey. Before I give you an

8 opportunity, Mr. Di Fazio, to re-examine the witness, I would like to ask

9 two additional questions.

10 Questioned by the Court:

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazliu, earlier today you said, and I'll just try

12 to find that, you said in relation to the comments you made in the

13 dailies, you said, "If I made a statement before, that might have been a

14 momentary statement which shouldn't be taken as a formal statement and not

15 be included in the indictment against someone." Now, did you give any

16 statement to anyone prior to the learning about the indictment in this

17 case?

18 A. I already said that if I have given a statement, because to tell

19 you the truth --

20 JUDGE ORIE: My question is: Did you give a statement, not

21 commenting on if you would have given a statement, but I'd like to know

22 whether you gave a statement before March 2005. And if so, to whom.

23 A. I didn't have anyone to give a statement to other than the people

24 I gave the statement in Vienna [as interpreted].

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Tell us. I've got no idea about any statement

Page 7491

1 earlier to March 2005. Could you please tell us to whom did you give a

2 statement? And as you said, in Vienna? The Chamber is not aware of any

3 earlier statement than October 2005.

4 A. I'm repeating it. I don't remember. That's why I allowed for

5 this if I -- I said if I gave a statement, I did not intend to accuse

6 anyone by that.

7 JUDGE ORIE: That's not my question. My question is, and since

8 you just referred apparently to a place even where you would have given a

9 statement, if I understood you well, you said "other than the people I

10 gave the statement in Vienna." Did you give a statement, whether in

11 Vienna or elsewhere, before the -- before March 2005?

12 A. I don't know in Vienna.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: He said a word in

14 Albanian meaning later which sounds like Vienna.

15 A. So I didn't given any statement in Vienna.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That now has been corrected. The interpreters

17 had heard a word and -- but forget about Vienna. Did you give to anyone a

18 statement in relation to what you, in March 2005, considered to be wrong

19 in the indictment? Did you give a statement to anyone? Whether

20 humanitarian organisation, whether investigators, whether whomever, so

21 before you learned about the indictment to which you commented, did you

22 give a statement to anyone?

23 A. I remember that after explaining the situation in the media, then

24 I gave statements, but not before. I don't remember to have given any

25 statements before the explanation I gave to the media.

Page 7492

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, you said, "If I made a statement

2 before, that might have been a momentary statement which shouldn't be

3 taken as a formal statement and not be included in the indictment against

4 someone," which at least suggests that you considered it a possibility

5 that you had given a statement which was then abused for purposes of

6 drafting an indictment.

7 A. Yes. This is what I thought. If I gave a statement.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Emmerson?

9 MR. EMMERSON: Just crossed my mind as the interchange between

10 Your Honour and the witness was taking place that the word "statement" is

11 capable potentially of two meanings, a written document or --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I'm aware of that and therefore I used the same

13 word for the witness. That's -- otherwise I would have asked him whether

14 he ever signed a written statement.

15 But that answer is --

16 Now, another matter, Mr. Fazliu, I'd like to ask you a question

17 about. You said you were willing to help when you were in the village

18 of -- let me just find it -- when you were in the house of Tal Zeka at

19 Zhabel. You said you were quite willing to give him a hand, to help him,

20 but he insisted on you staying in the men's oda all the time.

21 A. Yes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Why was that? I mean, it was May. Staying for a

23 couple of days in exactly that same place, not leaving it.

24 A. Probably he didn't want me to help him because that was the first

25 time I was visiting him and that I was, as I said, wearing just an old

Page 7493

1 T-shirt, and that there were other people there that he allowed to help

2 him in his field work, but he didn't want a guest like me staying with him

3 for two, three days to go out and help him work in the fields.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Now even -- it's not only that he did not, as you

5 told us, that he didn't want you to help him, but also that he insisted

6 that you should stay in the oda. Of course you could leave that for other

7 purposes than just to help Mr. Tal Zeka. Did he allow you to leave the

8 oda?

9 A. If we wanted we could have left, but as my personal situation is

10 dressed as I was, I wouldn't venture to leave the house.

11 JUDGE ORIE: All the others could freely leave the oda or those

12 who were with you at the time?

13 A. There were two or three neighbours of ours who are related to Tal.

14 They were -- they left. Bajram Lika was his name and his sons, they left

15 the house freely and came back. He could come and go like he was in his

16 own house; whereas myself, and my companion, we remained during all the

17 time in the oda, in the room, for two days because I'm not counting the

18 nights because, as you know, during the night one rests.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And you were the only two who stayed in the

20 room, is that correctly understood, for these days?

21 A. There were two other persons -- two or three other persons from

22 Turjake who met with some acquaintance of theirs, Dzevad was there with a

23 brother of his. They met and talked together. They stayed for half an

24 hour or one hour, and then they went back. Then there was Bajram and his

25 sons who could leave and come, and a relative of his who, as I said, were

Page 7494

1 free to move about Tal's family.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But my question here, in your response you more

3 or less tell who visited others who were in the room. My question was

4 whether you and your travelling companion were the only ones who stayed as

5 long as you were in this house in this room for all the time or whether

6 there were others as well who stayed for these two or three days inside

7 the men's oda, inside that room.

8 A. Only me, myself, and my companion, remained in the room all the

9 time, with exception of some personal needs, you know.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I understand that. Earlier today, you

11 testified "he," and you were referring to the owner of the house, "he

12 insisted that we stay in that room all the time and this is what we did,

13 myself, my travelling companion, and some other persons who were

14 sheltering there." So earlier today you said that not just you and your

15 travelling companion but others stayed in the room for all this time as

16 well.

17 A. It's not that he insisted, but he said, "You don't need to work,

18 because you are guests here." As to the presence of other people, there

19 were other people who stayed two, three hours, then they left and went to

20 visit Tal's brothers or to other families in the village. But it was only

21 myself and my companion who remained there all the time, without moving,

22 without leaving the room for a long -- for long stretches of time.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. My next question is about Ujku. I think it was

24 Defence counsel who asked you whether you knew the name of the person

25 called Ujku. Did you have no knowledge of either first name or family

Page 7495

1 name at the time when he -- when you met him in -- I always forget this --

2 in Zhabel, did you have any knowledge of his first name or family name

3 apart from that he was called Ujku.

4 A. Then I didn't know his name. I only knew him by the pseudonym

5 Ujku. But later on, through the media and the writings, I may have heard,

6 and I think I've seen a name which coincides with the name given to him,

7 but at the time I did not know who that person's real name was.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember what media? Was that television,

9 newspapers? Was that --

10 A. It was in the press. I cannot say precisely now which of the

11 newspapers, whether it was Bota Sot or Koha Ditore. In one of these

12 newspapers, there was a name which could be the real name of the person

13 that was also known as Ujku.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you remember what name was published then?

15 A. I think it was Pjeter, but again I'm saying I'm not 100 per cent

16 certain.

17 JUDGE ORIE: And when did you learn this from the press?

18 A. I think it was after the indictment was issued against the former

19 Prime Minister.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Di Fazio? Is there any need to

21 re-examine the witness?

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I've still got some questions I'd like to put

23 to the witness.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

25 Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

Page 7496

1 Q. Just on the question of work for the man, Tal Zeka, the work that

2 you had in mind when you offered to help him out, was that properly

3 described as heavy work, perhaps work in the fields, with the crops, that

4 sort of work? Is that the work you had in mind?

5 A. No, no. I told him that if you need any help, we can help you

6 rather than sit idle. It could be something -- some work in agriculture

7 like planting peppers and so on.

8 Q. That's what I thought you meant. Thank you for that

9 clarification. I appreciate it.

10 And did you offer that when you arrived at the house or at least

11 the next morning?

12 A. No. When we arrived it was night-time. I cannot exactly say what

13 time it was, but it was the following day after we arrived.

14 Q. Yes. Thank you. So you felt quite able to, notwithstanding the

15 states of your clothes, to go out into the fields and do some agricultural

16 work? Would that be right?

17 A. Well, with those clothes that we had on, we could use them because

18 they were suitable for doing work, and obviously they were good for doing

19 some work, but if I was to go in those clothes for a visit to somebody, I

20 would like ridiculous.

21 Q. Thank you. But you were -- it was fine for the agricultural work

22 around the oda and in the presence of all the others people who were

23 gathered in the oda or the other families, it was okay for those purposes,

24 your clothing, do I understand you correctly?

25 A. In the oda they were not quite appropriate, but they did not have

Page 7497

1 other options, and I didn't have other options, and in the circumstances I

2 had to do with what I had.

3 Q. We'll perhaps move on. You have revealed to us today, you have a

4 statement you provided in June of 2006, and I'd like you to just ask you a

5 few questions about that. You say in that statement that you've had the

6 opportunity of having your ICTY statement read over to you, and you wanted

7 to make some comments in relation to the content. Now, do you recall

8 saying that in your statement?

9 A. Which statement are you talking about? Can you please repeat that

10 again?

11 Q. Sure. Sure. I'll be clear. I just wanted to remind you that in

12 your statement that you gave, not entirely clear to me at this stage who

13 to, but in any event the statement that you gave on the 15th of June 2006,

14 and which you signed and which Mr. Emmerson showed you earlier today, in

15 that statement, I think you've got it right in front of you there, yes, in

16 that statement you say that you had your ICTY statement read over to you

17 in your native language, and you then go on to make some comments, some

18 clarifications. Do you see that in your statement?

19 If I may help you, it's the fourth paragraph of your statement

20 shown to you by Mr. Emmerson today, the one dated 15 June 2006 that you

21 have right in front of you.

22 A. Can you please give me details on which pages that they are on and

23 which paragraph.

24 Q. I don't want to spend too much time on this. It's the fourth

25 paragraph of your statement dated 15 June 2006. It was shown to you a

Page 7498

1 matter of an hour and a half or so ago?

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio it seems to be the first paragraph on

3 page 2 in the language --

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, probably page 2, sorry. Unfortunately they

5 haven't got numbers.

6 Q. I just wanted to remind you, Mr. Fazliu, that you said that you

7 had your -- the ICTY statement that you gave read over to you and that you

8 then go on to say that you want to make some comments and clarifications

9 or comments. Do you see that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Good. Thank you. And you remember, don't you, the statement

12 being shown to you and read over to you by the person who took this

13 statement from you?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. And I just want to be absolutely clear that you were

16 talking about the same statement. So could the witness be shown 65 ter

17 1919, and I'd like him to be shown the English version, please.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Just for our information, is that the 11th of

19 October, 2005 statement?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: That's correct.

21 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's not in the binder. Is it on the screen?

22 MR. DI FAZIO: It's on the screen both English and Albanian

23 available on the screen, and could I ask that we scroll down to the bottom

24 of that page, please?

25 Q. Is that your signature that appears at the bottom of your page --

Page 7499

1 that page, Mr. Fazliu? I'll repeat my question. Is that your signature

2 that appears at the bottom of that page, Mr. Fazliu?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. And could I ask the Court, please, to go through to

5 the very last page of the statement. And does your signature appear

6 again on this last page of the statement?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that is the statement that you're referring to when you say

9 that you provide some clarifications in your statement that you gave in

10 June of 2006, correct? That's the ICTY statement?

11 A. Yes.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, listening at the line of questioning, I

13 don't know whether this also should be in private session because we still

14 are. Whenever we were talking about journey, companion, et cetera, but

15 unless what you are aiming at comes down to the same episode.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't intend to show content of the statement on

17 the screens if Your Honours --

18 JUDGE ORIE: It's not just a matter of the screen. That's not

19 what I'm concerned about, but whether this portion of the evidence should

20 be in private session at all because we limit private session more or less

21 to --

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I see. Yes -- no, no. I think we can go out

23 of private session. I'm sorry, Your Honour.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We then turn into open session.

25 [Open session]

Page 7500

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Please proceed, Mr. Di

3 Fazio.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm grateful to Your Honours for

5 pointing that out.

6 Q. Okay. You've very helpfully provided some clarifications in your

7 statement of June of 2006, but the ICTY statement that we have up on the

8 screen here, and if we just scroll down on that last page, please, or,

9 rather, scroll up slightly, it's in English, but that's an acknowledgement

10 that the apparently signed by you, that the statement was read over to you

11 in the Albanian language and was true to the best of your knowledge and

12 recollection and that you gave it voluntarily. Can you tell us if, when

13 you gave your ICTY statement, if it was read over to you by an interpreter

14 in the Albanian language? Can you recall that happening at the time that

15 you put your signature on it?

16 A. I remember that the interpreter said that we will bring you a copy

17 in the Albanian language. I can't remember whether it was read out to me

18 in Albanian. I have said it in the statement that I've given to you, that

19 some interpreters, they come from Albania, and they have difficulties in

20 understanding some of the expressions that we use and there have been --

21 there has been confusion over certain sentences or ideas that have been

22 said in interviews.

23 Q. Okay. So I just want to be clear about that. Are you saying that

24 you can't remember if your ICTY statement was interpreted to you? You

25 can't recall if that happened or not, when you signed it, when you put

Page 7501

1 your signature on it?

2 A. When I signed it, I signed it in [indiscernible] language. And if

3 it was translated to me, there have been mistakes made in that

4 translation, when the translation of certain words and expressions. And I

5 have also made some corrections in the statement given to Defence. I have

6 made certain corrections, but there haven't been as many.

7 Q. Yes. Thank you.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I'd like to have matters clear. Was,

9 when you signed this statement, was it translated to you, yes or no?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I have not seen a copy of the

11 statement translated into Albanian, I have not considered it as

12 translated, but probably it was my fault.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazliu, I'm not asking what you considered or

14 what your interpretation of the situation was. I simply asked you when

15 you signed this statement, English statement, was it read to you through

16 translation in your language?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said earlier, I cannot remember

18 that such a thing happened, whether such a thing happened.

19 JUDGE ORIE: And would you have considered it a possibility that

20 you would sign a statement in a foreign language without knowing what it

21 says?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. As I said, we trust people and

23 sometimes if you -- if you trust people, then sometimes it gets you on the

24 wrong path. And I would normally trust people there. But now I notice

25 that there are certain mistakes in that statement which do not coincide

Page 7502

1 with the reality.

2 JUDGE ORIE: How do you know, Mr. Fazliu?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because on the basis of the

4 questions that I received via the videolink, I noticed.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.


7 Q. And was that the videolink that you had with me earlier this year?

8 My question was: You noticed --

9 MR. EMMERSON: I apologise for rising. I wonder if the witness

10 might remove his ear phones.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please remove your ear phones for a second,

12 Mr. Fazliu?

13 MR. EMMERSON: I'm slightly anxious that there is a risk that the

14 way in which the witness is being questioned about this has the potential

15 for confusing him, because Mr. Di Fazio began his re-examination by

16 directing the witness's attention to the passage in his Defence statement

17 in which he says in terms and which he confirmed, that whilst the Defence

18 statement was being taken, the ICTY statement was read over to him in

19 Albanian so that he was then able to identify errors that had taken place.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although -- yes. That's.

21 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour asked him the question: "How do you

22 know, Mr. Fazliu?" He's already answered the question in the sense that

23 he began in answering to Mr. Di Fazio.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Sometimes he asked the same thing in two different

25 ways in order to --

Page 7503

1 MR. EMMERSON: My concern is that the way in which this is being

2 done has the potential to confuse the witness when he's already answered

3 the question.

4 JUDGE ORIE: We'll keep a close eye on that. Mr. Di Fazio, could

5 you please proceed? Could you --


7 Q. I'll ask it in the most direct fashion. When did you first become

8 aware of your ICTY statement requiring clarifications?

9 A. I think it was when Defence approached me and through the

10 interview that we had together later.

11 Q. I see. And could you tell the Trial Chamber how it was that

12 these -- this requirement for clarifications was -- how you became aware

13 of this requirement for clarifications when defence approached you, what

14 precisely happened, how it happened when you became aware?

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. I believe that the manner of the

16 question as posed has a sufficient line of ambiguity that the translation

17 is --

18 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is granted. Could you -- "How you

19 become aware of this requirement" is rather vague and could easily create

20 confusion, Mr. Di Fazio.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: Very well. Let me --

22 JUDGE ORIE: If you reformulate it.


24 Q. Were you approached by some individual on behalf of the Defence

25 and questioned about your ICTY statement?

Page 7504

1 A. What time are we talking about?

2 Q. Any time. I don't know when this happened. If it happened. I'm

3 just asking you this: Were you approached by some individual on behalf of

4 the Defence and questioned about the content of your ICTY statement?

5 A. The only statement is the one that is in front of me and that's

6 the only statement I've given to Defence.

7 Q. All right. Okay. Well, I'd like to ask you some questions about

8 the content of your ICTY statement because you go into it in some detail

9 in your statement that you gave to Defence. You said that the quote from

10 your ICTY statement; namely, "If Ramush Haradinaj or his people came to

11 know of my statements to The Hague Tribunal I will fall from grace in the

12 eyes of the public and they will start treating me as a traitor, I have

13 never met nor spoken with Ramush Haradinaj, I have only heard of him

14 through Radio and news coverage of his actions, it would be totally

15 illogical for me to be afraid of him.

16 "I wish to say that I never said these things. I have never had

17 any problems with either Ramush Haradinaj or any of his supporters. I am

18 not in fear of him."

19 So you -- can I ask you this: When you spoke to the people from

20 the ICTY and you provided that ICTY statement, did you even go to the

21 topic of whether or not -- of the attitude that Ramush Haradinaj might

22 have to your provision of a statement, to your giving a statement? Did

23 you even discuss that with them?

24 A. I considered that.

25 Q. No. My question is this: Did you ever discuss the topic at all,

Page 7505

1 even discuss it, with investigators from the OTP, namely, the topic of

2 Ramush Haradinaj or his people coming to know of your statement and you

3 falling from grace in the eyes of the public? Did that topic ever arise

4 in the course of your dealings with OTP investigators?

5 A. I have to clarify once again that during the translation of the

6 statement, there may have been mistakes made.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazliu, I'm going to stop you there. I'd like

8 you to answer the question of Mr. Di Fazio. The question simply was

9 whether, during the interview, the matter of how your statement would

10 appreciated by Mr. Haradinaj or his people was raised at all, yes or no.

11 That's the question.

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. I haven't talked about this.

13 This was -- this was a conversation which has come out through the

14 clarification that I issued through the statement as well as through the

15 article published in Bota Sot. Up until the end of the war, I had never

16 met or known or spoken to him.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazliu, again you seem to misunderstand my

18 question. You can form an opinion on how your statement will be

19 appreciated by Mr. X, Y or Z, without knowing that person. I'm not asking

20 for logic. Simply, was the matter, whether people would dislike your

21 statement or even the fact that you gave a statement, if they would become

22 aware, was -- has that been part of your conversation with the

23 investigator of the ICTY?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now, look, you can never stop people

25 from speculating and making rumours, but when the name -- my name --

Page 7506

1 JUDGE ORIE: I'm not talking about speculations, I'm not talking

2 about rumours. I would like to have a clear answer to the question

3 whether this matter, that is how people might appreciate your statement,

4 was part of the conversation you had with the investigators, which means

5 whether you spoke about this subject when interviewed with the

6 investigators.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember having discussed

8 this with them, but it may have been probably a question put, and --

9 [No interpretation]

10 JUDGE ORIE: We have translated where you said, "I don't remember

11 having discussed this with them, but it may have been probably a question

12 put" and then the translation stops for us. Could you therefore resume

13 your answer from, "But I may have -- it may have been probably a question

14 put". Could you please repeat your answer?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said it may have been a question

16 put to me by the people who were asking me to give a statement. It may

17 have been an interpreter or an investigator. And it may have been

18 interpreted as if I said it. But I don't remember saying it.

19 JUDGE ORIE: So do I understand your answer well that it is that

20 others would perhaps have said that your statement or the content of it

21 would not be positively appreciated, but where these words in the report

22 are yours, that, as a matter of fact, the interpreters or the interviewers

23 might have said it but not you? Is that a correct understanding of your

24 answer?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the statement [No interpretation]

Page 7507

1 I cannot conclude that it was put by them.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio you may proceed.


4 Q. Well, when you learnt from the Defence representative that these

5 words, "If Ramush Haradinaj or his people come to know of my statement to

6 The Hague Tribunal, I will fall from grace in the eyes of the public and

7 they will start treating me as a traitor," when you learned that those

8 words had been attributed to you in your ICTY statement, what was your

9 reaction? Did you -- how did you feel about that?

10 A. I made that clarification in the statement given to Defence, and

11 this is included here.

12 Q. I know and I'm very grateful to you for explaining that to us, but

13 what I'm asking you is how did you feel about that? Were you annoyed or

14 upset about these words that had been incorrectly attributed to you?

15 That's what I'd like to know.

16 A. These people here, Mr. Emmerson and the interpreter, Isak by name,

17 they know very well whether I was concerned, really worried about this.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazliu, again, would you please answer the

19 questions? The question is not what others think your mood was at the

20 time, but the question was whether you -- how you felt about it, whether

21 you were annoyed or upset. Would you please answer the question?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For something I do not have, of

23 course I have to be -- to feel annoyed or upset.


25 Q. Thank you. Did you consider doing anything about that? For

Page 7508

1 example, speaking to the investigators who had attributed, falsely or

2 incorrectly at least, attributed these words to you?

3 A. After the statement I gave to the Defence, you think?

4 Q. Again, a very simple question. When you found out, when you found

5 out that these words had been attributed to you concerning

6 Ramush Haradinaj and his people --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazliu, I think the witness sought confirmation

8 of that moment to be after he gave the statement to the Defence, and I

9 think he earlier said that at that moment he became aware of the incorrect

10 content of the statement.

11 So therefore, yes, Mr. Fazliu, I think that's what Mr. Di Fazio

12 meant, whether -- whether you considered doing anything about it, about

13 this, after you had learned about the incorrectness of the statement as it

14 was put on paper. For example, addressing the investigators.

15 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, and could the witness take off his ear

16 phones?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any reason why he could not first answer

18 this question.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm objecting to the relevance of the question and

20 I think the --

21 JUDGE ORIE: If it's relevance then it's -- then it doesn't -- the

22 worst that it could happen is that it doesn't harm. Five seconds. It

23 won't take more time.

24 Would you please answer the question, whether you considered to do

25 anything about it, to address the investigators who did write down your

Page 7509

1 statement so incorrectly on paper?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Through the statement I gave to the

3 Defence, I did this. So I did declare what I feel and think and that is

4 the reality. It's quoted well here.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: All right.

7 Q. I just want to ask you about another paragraph in your statement,

8 and in fact, it's -- I just want to focus on paragraph 17 of the -- of

9 your -- of the statement that you gave to the ICTY, and which you've today

10 provided clarification about, and that's the statement -- if we could just

11 look at that particular --

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours I think we might need to go into

13 private session here because it might be shown on the screen.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll move into private session.

15 [Private session - confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Please proceed,

18 Mr. Di Fazio.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

20 Q. If we could go to paragraph 17 of the statement, yes, if the

21 witness could have the Albanian, that would be -- the Albanian version I

22 understand that we can --

23 MR. DI FAZIO: -- the Court can have the English as well.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have the English in front of me. I would

25 very much like to see the Albanian as a matter of fact, whether it's

Page 7510

1 signed or not, because you earlier showed him the English one.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, I believe it -- can we scroll down to the

3 bottom, please? No. It's just a straight translation, if Your Honours

4 please.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Without any -- yes.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

7 Q. Now, there is paragraph 17 of the ICTY statement. And today you

8 have provided some clarification about that statement that you gave in the

9 past. And today you have said that you saw this paragraph in which you

10 say -- which you alleged to have said that you saw Lahi Brahimaj in

11 Gllogjan and that he instructed the villagers not to assist villagers from

12 Grabanice as he considered you traitors, and today you've clarified that

13 you didn't make this comment, it's not true, you didn't see or talk to him

14 in Gllogjan. There's just one extra question I want to ask you about.

15 Did Lahi Brahimaj ever exhort or encourage villagers from anywhere not to

16 assist you?

17 A. No, he did not encourage them not to help us.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. If he did not want to, he would not be sending him -- my brother--

20 to be cured --

21 THE INTERPRETER: [Interpretation] His brother, sorry, to be cured.


23 Q. Thank you. And I just want to ask you a similar question as I

24 asked you in relation to the other matter in your statement. When you

25 found out that this had been included in your statement, your ICTY

Page 7511

1 statement, the one that you signed --

2 Let me withdraw that.

3 Did you ever discuss with --

4 MR. HARVEY: I apologise for interrupting, as there was just a

5 pause there, there appeared to be a little confusion about what was meant

6 by "otherwise he would not have sent my brother to be cured, his brother

7 to be cured." Perhaps that could be clarified.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I did read your mind earlier, you read my mind

9 at this moment.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand.

11 Q. Do I take it --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You explained, Mr. Fazliu, you said, and you

13 were talking about Lahi Brahimaj, "He did not encourage them not to help

14 us." And then you explained that, and it had got something to do with a

15 brother being cured. But that is perhaps due to a translation error but

16 that's not entirely clear. Could you please explain again why you thought

17 that he would not encourage them not to help you?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying again, maybe it's not

19 good to confuse things with a statement of someone else maybe. Lahi has

20 helped both the villagers and that's why I said that the brother was sent

21 to be cured and Sadri Berisha and all the others who were there were sent

22 to Irzniq hospital, and I said this was to prove that he did not stop or

23 prevent anyone else from helping us. Otherwise, if something like that

24 were to occur, I -- there -- I would not give him my machine-gun and then

25 ask it to be brought back to me.

Page 7512

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When you say, "why I said that the brother was

2 sent to be cured," whose brother were you referring to?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My brother who was wounded in

4 Grabanice. He was sent to be cured and he was treated in Jabllanice.

5 JUDGE ORIE: That clarifies the matter. Please proceed,

6 Mr. Di Fazio.


8 Q. Was the topic of Lahi Brahimaj instructing villagers not to assist

9 you because you were traitors ever discussed with OTP investigators? I'm

10 not asking you if it's true or not. I'm not asking you that. I'm just

11 asking you was the topic ever discussed with OTP investigators?

12 A. I don't recall that it was discussed. And I have clarified this

13 in the statement that I gave to you, Mr. Di Fazio.

14 Q. Yes. Thank you very much. And again, when the Defence

15 representatives pointed this out to you, that these words had been

16 attributed to you in your ICTY statement, how did you feel about that?

17 What was your reaction? Did you feel that you had been tricked or were

18 you angry or upset?

19 A. I didn't feel that was honest.

20 Q. Thank you. All right. Well, I want to leave the topic of your

21 statement. You've given evidence today about a number of matters. I just

22 want to remind you very briefly about them. You agree?

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, leaving the statement, are we entering

24 into the journey or -- I'm just cautious about that.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: I think we can go back into open session. I'm not

Page 7513

1 going to go into the journey or the individual that we are all concerned

2 about.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed. Oh, no, first let's turn into

4 open session.

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar. Please proceed.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks.

9 Q. You've said you provided us with clarifications about a number of

10 issues today in your evidence, Mr. Fazliu. You told us that Jabllanice

11 was an area that Serbs couldn't go to for a period of six years and that

12 was still the case, wasn't it, in May of 1998?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And not only that, but you had received assistance from people in

15 Jabllanice in your resistance to the Serbs prior to going to Zhabel?

16 A. Yes. There were Agim Zeneli and some people who knew Agim, I knew

17 Agim personally.

18 Q. And you said today that there was, as far as you could detect, no

19 hostility between people from Grabanica and the KLA. I think you

20 described your relationships as "okay." That's your position?

21 A. Yes. Grabanice did send help in foods and in fuel to Jabllanice.

22 Q. And your brother was wounded and taken to Jablanica for medical

23 treatment?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And this was before you started out on your trip to Zhabel?

Page 7514

1 A. The day of 20th of May, he was wounded, and during the day, he was

2 sent, and then we went late in the evening to Zhabel.

3 Q. And when you set out for Zhabel you knew your brother had been

4 taken to Jablanica?

5 A. I learned later that my brother is being treated because of the

6 wounds he has -- he had taken in the Jablanica HQ.

7 Q. Okay. Thank you. I'm looking at the map. I don't need to show

8 it to you, I don't think, unless you wish to see it, you please let me

9 know if you wish. But if you travel from Grabanica in the direction of

10 Zhabel, you first -- you would go through Bokshiq, wouldn't you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And then you would go through Glodjane and Peja, wouldn't you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And then you'd go through Jablanica, wouldn't you?

15 A. Jabllanice, yes.

16 Q. And then in order to get to Zhabel, you'd have to travel on from

17 Jablanica down to Zhabel, wouldn't you?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber, given the state of your

20 relations with Jablanica and in the light of your evidence, what it was

21 precisely that caused you to keep moving and not stop in Jablanica?

22 A. I know well that Jabllanice was overburdened with villagers from

23 Grabanice and Bokshiq, because everyone believed it's an area that has

24 been for six years safe because Serbs haven't been there for six years,

25 and I'm not going to call them refugees, but that's why most of people

Page 7515

1 decided to go to a less-burdened village, and in the Beranj area villages

2 it was not very safe because the military forces, Serbian military forces,

3 could have gone any time to beat up the people and even kill them.

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Private session - confidentiality lifted by later order of the Chamber]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are in private session.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Madam Registrar.


16 Q. As you travelled and walked along and your journey towards Zhabel

17 with your travelling companion, did you consider or discuss between the

18 two of you taking refuge in Jablanica?

19 A. From Grabanice, when we set off, and passed through Bokshiq, we

20 saw people walking on the streets, and he said, "I have a relative in

21 Zhabel and we can go there." I did not know at that time who it was, but

22 after we went I learned this was Tal. And then I had known him earlier a

23 bit.

24 Q. All right. So then your travelling companion, then, he was clear

25 that he wanted to go to Zhabel? Do I understand your evidence correct?

Page 7516

1 A. Yes. It was clear to him where he was going. If it were earlier,

2 maybe I would go to Dasinovac where I have my relatives, and would have

3 been maybe freer.

4 Q. Okay. As you went through Jablanica with your travelling

5 companion, you say there were other villagers from Grabanica there. About

6 how many would you say were there, as you walked through Jablanica or

7 passed through it?

8 A. I never thought of counting them. There were tens of the people.

9 Someone in tractors, someone else walking, some people even with their

10 cars, et cetera.

11 Q. Okay. But the topic of perhaps abandoning Zhabel and staying in

12 Jablanica never arose between you and your travelling companion? Do I

13 understand you correctly?

14 A. I do not really get the question, please. Can you clarify it?

15 Q. You've told us a lot of details about your trip with your

16 travelling companion from Grabanica to Zhabel and reasons why you went

17 there. You've told us a lot about your relations with people in Jablanica

18 and the situation in Jablanica today. All I want to know is this: Did

19 the topic of taking refuge in Jablanica, as you passed through Jablanica,

20 arise between you and your travelling companion? Did you discuss it,

21 something along the lines, for instance, of, "Let's stay here in

22 Jablanica"?

23 A. Primary aim of my companion was to learn first where his wife and

24 children are. I believe this is -- was -- this was his primary cause,

25 because he exchanged a couple of words with Ujku related to this issue,

Page 7517

1 and this, I believe, was his primary aim, to learn where his family had

2 sought refuge.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I'm looking at the clock and I wonder

4 whether you'll finish in one or two minutes. If not then we'll have to

5 take a break now.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: I can finish this now. I think it's probably a

7 good idea if we just continue.

8 MR. EMMERSON: I'd be happy to continue, but could I indicate that

9 I have one or two questions arising.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I might have one or two questions as well. So

11 therefore, how much time would that approximately take?

12 MR. EMMERSON: I would have thought between five and ten minutes.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, then perhaps it's better to have a break now.

14 Mr. Fazliu, we are almost finished but not completely. Therefore,

15 we have a break and we'll finish after the break. We resume at 6.00.

16 --- Recess taken at 5.38 p.m.

17 --- On resuming at 6.10 p.m.

18 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber apologises to the parties and to you,

19 Mr. Fazliu, but we had urgent matters to discuss which took us ten minutes

20 more than we expected. We are in private session, Mr. Emmerson, do we

21 have to remain in private session for your questions?

22 MR. EMMERSON: [Microphone not activated]

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I have just got one. I just wanted to get an

24 answer to the second to last question. It won't take a moment if, Your

25 Honours please.

Page 7518



3 Q. Mr. Fazliu, I just wanted to ask you this question or rather get

4 an answer to it, because I don't think you actually addressed your mind to

5 the question I was asking, it was a very simple one. All I was asking

6 you is this: As you and your travelling companion were passing through

7 Jablanica, did the question arise as between you of possibly staying,

8 taking refuge, in Jablanica? That's all. Did it come up as a topic?

9 A. We didn't discuss this because he had already made up his mind as

10 to where he wanted to go. So I didn't intervene to say anything.

11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you very much. I have no further questions.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson?

13 Further cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

14 Q. Mr. Fazliu, I just want to clarify one or two matters you've been

15 asked about both by Judge Orie and by Mr. Di Fazio. First of all, first

16 topic I want to return to, is Judge Orie asked you about an answer that

17 you had given where you said that, in essence, you had offered to do some

18 work around the house of Tal Zeka, but Tal Zeka insisted that you remain

19 in the oda. Now, you told us, in answer to Judge Orie's question that it

20 wasn't that he was insisting that you remain in the oda but that he was

21 telling you, in effect, as a guest, it was not necessary for you to work.

22 You remember giving that answer?

23 A. Yes, I do.

24 Q. Just to clarify, first of all, Tal Zeka's house was chosen as your

25 destination not by you but by your travelling companion; is that correct?

Page 7519

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Tal Zeka was your travelling companion's relative; is that

3 correct?

4 A. He's a friend of the cousin of my travelling companion.

5 Q. And you told us that Tal Zeka had said to you that as your -- as

6 his guests, it wasn't necessary for you to work. Is it customary in

7 Kosovar Albanian society for guests to remain in the oda?

8 A. It is.

9 Q. And again just so it's absolutely clear, were you being detained

10 in the oda? Or were you free to leave, if you wished to go somewhere

11 else?

12 A. I was free, if I wanted to go somewhere, nobody prevented me. The

13 owner just put up that reception for us as a sign of generosity. You

14 know, he didn't -- he regretted it [as interpreted] to make me go out and

15 work in the field.

16 Q. Secondly, Mr. Di Fazio asked you about a passage in the witness

17 statement that you gave to the ICTY investigators in October 2005

18 referring to concerns that if people knew you'd made a statement, you

19 would fall from grace, and he took you to a passage in the statement that

20 you made to the Defence investigators in which you indicated that that was

21 not a concern and had not been said by you. I just want to be clear about

22 one matter, because just over six months before the Prosecution

23 investigators spoke to you, you had given this interview or series of

24 interviews you tell us to the media on about the 15th of March; is that

25 right?

Page 7520

1 A. I gave one interview only, but it was relayed by three different

2 dailies.

3 Q. I see. So one interview published in three different places. And

4 if you look in the file again, at tab 1, that interview is recorded as

5 having been given on the 14th of March and published on the 15th of March

6 of 2005. Do you see that?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And in the last sentence --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I take it if that's the case, the

10 translation tells us that it's, what's the date of publication?

11 Unfortunately, the original either it's hidden behind the numbering or but

12 there is no date on the original.

13 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour is quite right.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.

15 MR. EMMERSON: I think there is the date.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But not the year. Yes.

17 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly.

18 Q. But I think you can confirm, can you, Mr. Fazliu, that this

19 interview was given just after the indictment was made public, the same

20 year?

21 A. I remember that. I wouldn't have had to make such an explanation

22 had I not been obliged to shut the mouth of those gossip mongers who

23 spread these rumours, that's why I had to make this explanation to the

24 public.

25 Q. What's important for us to be clear about is to make sure that we

Page 7521

1 have the right date for it. It's recorded in the original as an interview

2 that took place during March, but in the original publication, it

3 doesn't-- we can't see from our copy of it which year it was. Now, we

4 know the indictment in this case was made public in March 2005 --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, I just mentioned it because there is no

6 problem with it, I would say, because he couldn't comment on an indictment

7 which doesn't exist, and then of course, in October he was interviewed and

8 it was only later that he gave the interview to the Defence. So as far as

9 the year is concerned, I just put it in for the record.

10 MR. EMMERSON: What I'm concerned about is that this statement had

11 been made six months before the OTP investigator spoke to him. As long as

12 that's clear.



15 Q. And in the last sentence of the article which we didn't deal with

16 before, you are recorded as having said this: It says, "According to

17 Mr. Fazliu, he has given these clarifications not because he was scared or

18 under pressure but in order for the truth to come out in this case." Did

19 you say that when you were interviewed and is that the truth?

20 A. Yes. I said this.

21 Q. Thank you.

22 A. At the office in Kline at the office for information, 14th of

23 March.

24 Q. Thank you. Now, when we come to the witness statement that you

25 made in October 2005, when you were interviewed by the Prosecution

Page 7522

1 investigators, I'm not going to ask for it to be brought up unless it

2 becomes necessary, but in that witness statement, you give the names of

3 certain people who you saw at Jabllanice. For example, you name Lahi and

4 Nazmi Brahimaj as people who were at Jabllanice, but there is no

5 suggestion in your witness statement to the Prosecution that you saw

6 Ramush Haradinaj at Jabllanice. Now, obviously we know that in March of

7 2005, you had told the press that Ramush Haradinaj was not at Jabllanice.

8 The question I want to ask you is can you remember now whether the

9 investigators from the Prosecution asked you one way or the other if

10 Ramush Haradinaj was there?

11 A. They asked me, and I always gave the same answer, namely that he

12 was not there and I'm certain of this.

13 Q. And that is something which they then must have failed to record

14 in your witness statement; is that correct? Because there is nothing in

15 your witness statement on the subject one way or the other, the

16 Prosecution statement, that is.

17 A. That's not my fault if they didn't write down what I said.

18 Q. No, it wasn't your fault.

19 Next, did they tell you that your travelling companion had made an

20 allegation that whilst you were there, a 15 year old boy had had his ear

21 cut off? Did they tell you that, the Prosecution investigators, because

22 there is no mention of that in your Prosecution witness statement either.

23 A. This question too was asked of me, but my answer is not there, and

24 it is the same answer that I gave through the statement I gave to the

25 Defence and which I confirmed here as well.

Page 7523

1 Q. Thank you. And finally this: When you were then later

2 interviewed by investigators for the Defence in June 2006 I just wanted to

3 clarify one matter. You mentioned my name in connection with that

4 statement. You were in fact I think interviewed, were you not, by a

5 British female police officer together with a Kosovar Albanian called

6 Isak Faro [phoen]; is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that's correct. I thought that before the talk, they

8 mentioned your name. I thought that they had come on your behalf.

9 Q. Yes, well they may well have said that to you. But just to be

10 absolutely clear, Mr. Fazliu, before you came to court yesterday, you and

11 I had never met, had we?

12 A. No, we hadn't.

13 Q. Yes. Thank you. Those are my questions?

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, just one matter for clarification. In

15 your question at least you made an observation about interview by a police

16 officer. I take it not a British police officer functioning as such, or a

17 former police officer working as an investigator for the --

18 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Then I understood it well. Yes.

20 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

21 MR. HARVEY: No additional questions arising.

22 JUDGE ORIE: No additional questions for you, Mr. Guy-Smith? Yes,

23 Judge Hoepfel has a question for you.

24 Questioned by the Court:

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Let me go back to that walk from Zhabel to

Page 7524

1 Jablanica. What is the distance about between the two places?

2 A. I think that it takes you one hour, if you walk on foot. I never

3 measured the time or the distance, but you have to walk rather fast. If

4 you walk slowly, it may take you longer than one hour.

5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And did I understand you correctly, you walked

6 slower?

7 A. We walked very slow, as if we have -- we have a saying which says

8 as if you count your own steps. And all along the way we talked. We

9 talked as if we were going on a picnic. It was a rather very slow walk.

10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You said something like that yesterday also, and I

11 didn't really understand because of these motivations you mentioned

12 yesterday to get to Jablanica. You said two things which were urgent

13 reasons for you to get to Jablanica. One was your brother in the hospital

14 and the other one was the mobilisation issue. Do I remember correctly?

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Today you said you learned only later that your

17 brother was in the hospital. When did you learn that actually?

18 A. We were talking about the date, the 20th, which was not clear to

19 me before I arrived to Zhabel late in the evening. During the day of the

20 20th, I had no information on my brother's being wounded, but in the

21 evening of the day, of the same day, when I arrived there at 11.00 at

22 night, I heard from people who came there that he was wounded and was

23 being treated in Jabllanice at the headquarters. And this is my

24 explanation.

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Who told you that, please?

Page 7525

1 A. There were people from the village who came there after us and

2 during the day, they moved about, and that was -- there was also

3 Sadri Berisha, and the leader of the village, who lived in another house

4 in Zhabel, and it was through him that I got this information. If I'm not

5 mistaken.

6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So forgive me for asking, but I don't really

7 understand why you then took such a slow pace on your walk from one place

8 to the other, from Zhabel to Jablanica.

9 A. Why should we hurry up? Didn't have any motive to do that.

10 Nobody forced us to move faster.

11 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Okay. And what did you mean with saying you

12 walked arms in arms? With whom did you walk arms in arms?

13 A. With commander of Zhabel village, Tahir, that's his name.

14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: What was the reason for that?

15 A. Whereas my companion, we talked all along the way. I stated this

16 earlier. He asked me what my profession was, what I was doing, and then I

17 asked him to --

18 JUDGE HOEPFEL: The question was why you walked hand in hand or

19 arm in arm, as you said. Is that --

20 A. I don't see any reason why not. We got to know each other there.

21 We were introduced there. And it was quite natural to us to learn

22 something more about the private life of each other. Whereas my companion

23 walked ahead of us with Ali and Fadil. They too were talking as they

24 walked.

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Were they also arms in arms?

Page 7526

1 A. They were side by side, like in a line, and this is how they

2 walked, besides each other.

3 JUDGE HOEPFEL: So your companion was not arms in arms with

4 anybody?

5 A. With Fadil, Selmani and Ali Berisha.

6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: What, pardon? What do you mean?

7 A. My companion walked alongside Fadil Berisha and -- Selmani and

8 Ali Berisha.

9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: That was not my question. Pardon, Mr. Emmerson.

10 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if the witness might remove his headphones

11 for a moment?

12 JUDGE ORIE: You should take off your headphones for a second,

13 Mr. Fazliu.

14 MR. EMMERSON: I think it may be that the words "arm in arm" are a

15 colloquial Kosovo Albanian expression. I don't know if you would wish to

16 explore whether he means literally "arm in arm" or whether that is an

17 expression intended to mean walking side by side. I'm not certain what

18 the answer is, but I understand that it is a colloquial expression.

19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. Mr. Fazliu -- thank you. Please maybe for

20 clarification once more, what do you mean by you having walked arm in arm

21 with Mr. Tahir, and the other group was walking side by side? Is that a

22 difference or what do you want to express by that?

23 A. The expression "arm by arm", the way I understand it is if you are

24 in good company and you feel comfortable, you can walk freely and hold all

25 sorts of conversations. This is how I understand this expression, in good

Page 7527

1 company, without any kind of hesitation.

2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Fazliu, I would have a few questions for you.

4 First of all you said that you learned from the press about the name of

5 Ujku perhaps being Pjeter. What did they write about him in the press?

6 What was the reason that his name appeared in the press?

7 A. If I'm not mistaken, it appeared that he raised an accusation

8 against Mr. Haradinaj, the former Prime Minister of Kosovo. It was

9 something along those lines. I cannot be more accurate, but I think that

10 was the basis.

11 JUDGE ORIE: My next question is, from what I understand you

12 stayed for a couple of weeks, four weeks, in Maznik, after you had

13 returned from Jablanica. Now, what did you do after those four weeks?

14 Did you return to your village or --

15 A. Yes. Every third -- second or third day, I went back to the

16 village, and I stayed there for the whole day sometimes, and then went

17 back to Maznik in the evening.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but did I understand you well that you stayed

19 for four weeks in Maznik? Do you mean that you returned to Grabanica

20 during those four weeks or that you extended your presence in Maznik even

21 after that, although, going to Grabanica for perhaps two days a week?

22 A. No, I'm saying that we stayed and slept in Maznik, and we helped

23 out in that family where we stayed, but during the day, on certain days,

24 we went with the son of Avdiv [phoen] even to Maliseva [phoen], and we

25 also went to Grabanice because some families of Grabanice stayed there all

Page 7528

1 the time. And after spending a few hours there, we went back to Maznik.

2 And after four weeks in Maznik, then we moved to Kosuric.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Now, did you ever participate after those four weeks

4 or even within those four weeks, did you ever participate in any

5 military-like or operation? I mean did you ever carry an arm during that

6 period? Were you ever involved in operations for whatever organisation,

7 KLA, any other organisation?

8 A. During our stay in Kosuric, we had guard duties with the KLA

9 soldiers in the village, not only me but my other three, four brothers,

10 and that was whenever we were given a timetable for doing this guard

11 duties, and I was doing the guard duties in the area round Kosuric and

12 that happened up until the moment when Kosuric was attacked, when we then

13 withdrew from there.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Fazliu, you answered my question. Then once

15 you had left Jabllanice when, for the first time after you had come to

16 Maznik did you meet Mr. Brahimaj, Mr. Lahi Brahimaj again?

17 A. After I went to Maznik, I met him because I went on several

18 occasions to Jabllanice, and I met him two, three times, but it was after

19 several -- several weeks, then I asked him to give me back my weapon and

20 that's how I got it back.

21 JUDGE ORIE: You say after several weeks. Is that the weapon you

22 used when you were performing your guard duties, later, as you just

23 explained to us?

24 A. It was a Hungarian automatic rifle, Kalashnikov. It was that one.

25 It was my weapon and it was returned to me as we had agreed.

Page 7529

1 JUDGE ORIE: Now, yes. You said that was after a couple of weeks.

2 My question was whether that was the weapon you used when standing guard,

3 not what the weapon was, because that was an AK-47, as far as I

4 understand, but did you use that weapon when standing guard after leaving

5 Maznik?

6 A. Yes. Yes. I have used the same weapon to perform my guard

7 duties.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, in the statement which was read to you, the

9 statement given to the ICTY investigator, you said that the weapon was

10 returned five or six months later. Have you corrected that when you spoke

11 to the Defence where -- I'm just.

12 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour it's -- again, it might be wiser if the

13 witness removed his ear phones.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if there is anything of the kind, then please,

15 if you give me a number, then I can check that.

16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. If Your Honour would just give me a moment.

17 He corrected it both in his Defence statement and in his interview --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Then I overlooked that.

19 MR. EMMERSON: And in his interview with Mr. Di Fazio where he

20 said the six months should have read six weeks.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then I overlooked that and we can proceed.

22 Then I do understand that you corrected that although I -- now, I

23 do understand that you corrected that in your statement. I have one final

24 question for you. You told in the statement you gave to the Defence that

25 you learned that -- and let me take it literally. You said about your

Page 7530

1 travel companion, "I heard he had gone to the USA." Could you tell us

2 when did you hear that? Apparently prior to giving this statement in June

3 2006. Do you remember when you heard that and how you heard that?

4 A. The son of one of his brothers in the village, that's how we heard

5 about it, before he left for America he had said that he wanted to go

6 there. But later on, when the son of his brother, Jefer [phoen], he told

7 us he was somewhere in America.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Was that before or after you gave the interview to

9 the press, you remember that we -- that was March 2005. Was it prior to

10 that that you heard that he had gone to the United States or was it after

11 that?

12 A. It's possible that I heard about it after that date. I'm not

13 sure.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You're not sure about it. Thank you very much

15 for that answer. Did the questions trigger any further need?

16 MR. EMMERSON: Nothing arising, save to indicate to Your Honours'

17 the answer to Your Honour's question. A correction will be found in the

18 penultimate line of the second full paragraph on page 4 of the statement,

19 and during the proofing session with Mr. Di Fazio, on page 22, when that

20 paragraph was put to him, the witness is recorded as saying, "You are

21 mistaken that I said months. It was weeks because five or six months

22 would have been a very long time."

23 JUDGE ORIE: I would have checked that Mr. Emmerson. First of all

24 if you say that as a solid response then I. [Speakers overlapping].

25 JUDGE ORIE: I start from the points of view that you've checked

Page 7531

1 that carefully.

2 MR. EMMERSON: Secondly, I wonder whether tabs 1 and 2 could

3 please be marked for identification.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, tab 1 would be the newspaper article

5 dated the 15th of March with on top of it Kline 14th of March 2005.

6 MR. EMMERSON: I'm being reminded that we should perhaps for this

7 purpose go into open session.

8 JUDGE ORIE: We could go to open session.

9 [Open session]

10 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar, the newspaper article under tab 1,

12 is it uploaded already? It's uploaded already in e-court. Would have

13 what number?

14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours this will be Exhibit number D154

15 marked for identification.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you. Then under tab 2, the statement of

17 the witness dated the 15th of June 2006 would be number?

18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours this will be Exhibit number D155

19 marked for identification.

20 MR. EMMERSON: I don't ask for tab 3 to be marked for

21 identification because I don't seek to tender it.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Then, as far as the status of tab 2 is concerned, we

23 earlier discussed it to be perhaps an answer to your statement. Of

24 course, 92 ter, there is one respect it starts from the assumption that

25 the witness is called by the party who presents the statement as a 92 ter

Page 7532

1 statement and that the witness is available for cross-examination. Here,

2 however, the situation is slightly different, but I think on the basis of

3 the ratio of Article 92 ter, that the Article would not oppose against

4 admitting a statement under 92 ter where the witness is available for

5 examination-in-chief. If that would be -- if the parties take any

6 different view, then the Chamber would like to hear that later.

7 Mr. Fazliu, first of all perhaps we directly deal with the

8 exhibits. Mr. Di Fazio, I think we have dealt with all the P exhibits,

9 that was only the marked map from what I remember.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Then we have two Defence exhibits any objections

12 either the newspaper article --

13 MR. DI FAZIO: No, there is none. And I have no objection to them

14 going into evidence at all.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then exhibits D154 and D155 are admitted into

16 evidence. The P exhibit was already admitted at an earlier stage.

17 MR. EMMERSON: Just before Your Honour addresses the witness, I

18 wonder if we might go very briefly into private session?

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We turn into private session.

20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 7533

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 [Open session]

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

14 Mr. Fazliu, this concludes your evidence in this Court. You've

15 been here for two days, many questions were put to you, they have been

16 long sessions. I'd like to thank you for coming to The Hague and to

17 answer questions of both parties and the Bench and I'd like to wish you a

18 safe trip home again.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher would you please escort the witness out

21 of the courtroom?

22 [The witness withdrew]

23 JUDGE ORIE: I would like to see how far we come with shortening

24 our list of exhibits on which no decisions have yet been taken.

25 First of all, is there any new information the Chamber should hear

Page 7534

1 about the five exhibits that were -- remained undetermined as far as

2 Professor Dunjic is concerned, that's 746, 763, 774, 779 and 815.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Mr. Dutertre and I are still in the process of

4 dealing with that issue, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will hear about that at a later stage.

6 The parties have received this rather long list. As far as

7 Witness 6 is concerned, I do understand that D114 was not dealt with out

8 of oversight. Any objections?

9 MR. DI FAZIO: No objection.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Admitted into evidence.

11 MR. HARVEY: No objection.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, no objection but, no, but D114 is a

13 Defence Exhibit. Of course, you could -- we do not make any distinction

14 between which Defence counsel, although I would invite Defence counsel, if

15 one Defence counsel tenders any documents where other Defence counsel

16 would object, I'd like to know that immediately and not wait until a

17 couple of weeks after that.

18 Then P335 was a matter of translation. Is the translation

19 meanwhile completed?

20 MR. DI FAZIO: They were redone by the official translation body,

21 and I believe they are uploaded into e-court and are they now ready to be

22 fully admitted as far as the Prosecution is concerned.

23 MR. HARVEY: No objection.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Is that true for the other counsel as well? Then

25 P335 is admitted into evidence.

Page 7535

1 We now come to a couple of exhibits tendered through witness

2 Bajcetic, that is D130 through D -- at this moment, D136. I know that

3 there are three more on the list, but I would first limit it to these

4 Defence exhibits. That's D130 through D136. Any objections.

5 MR. RE: Not to D130, 131, 132, 133 and 134 and 136. However,

6 there is an objection to D135, which purports to be or is an extract from

7 the Milutinovic pre-trial brief and the Prosecution is at a loss to see

8 how it is relevant to these proceedings and awaits to hear the Defence's

9 submissions on relevance so we can respond.

10 MR. EMMERSON: Well, it's relevant because it deals with the

11 Prosecution's position that General Colonel Vlastimir Djurdjevic was an

12 architect of a plan to conceal evidence by moving bodies to frustrate the

13 investigations of the Tribunal which in itself is relevant given the

14 upcoming testimony of a witness whose protected status is yet to be

15 determined, that General Colonel Vlastimir Djordjevic was involved in the

16 canal investigation and was one of the first at the scene.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Whether he was or not, of course, we do not know yet,

18 but we'll consider this -- you would like to hear the relevance and then

19 take a position, Mr. Re.

20 MR. RE: I'm not quite sure we have heard the relevance. The

21 Prosecution in my general response at the moment is that it's -- for a

22 start Mr. Emmerson hasn't pointed to the relevant passage, even a relevant

23 footnote. It's a pre-trial brief, a position in relation to another case

24 at a different time period involving different parties in a different

25 area. It appears on its face.

Page 7536


2 MR. RE: It certainly isn't evidence.

3 JUDGE ORIE: It raised an interesting question, whether any

4 perception expressed by any member of the Office of the Prosecution in

5 another case emphasising a perception of what might be the truth, or to

6 what extent that -- because that's just presenting on what they think they

7 could prove.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Well, it may --

9 JUDGE ORIE: And in that context being relevant.

10 MR. EMMERSON: It raises an interesting question. The short

11 response is that the Office of the Prosecutor being indivisible, the

12 Prosecution's position is not one of perception but one in which it makes

13 allegations and accusations. And it's not in our submission open to the

14 Prosecution to take a different position in two different cases.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll consider that and see whether we ask

16 further submissions on whether consistency in all cases under all

17 circumstances is required from the Prosecution. But let's leave it at

18 this moment. We are trying at this moment to cut short our list. Then

19 D130 through D134 are admitted into evidence. D135 is pending. D136

20 is -- Mr. Re I think you said something about D135. I asked comments

21 until D136.

22 MR. RE: D135 was the one was the one I was objecting to which was

23 the pre-trial brief.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but I'm now talking about D136. That's okay.

25 MR. RE: I don't object to that.

Page 7537

1 JUDGE ORIE: Then D136 is admitted into evidence. As far as D137

2 through D139 is concerned, these are statements on which the Chamber would

3 like to -- the Defence to reconsider whether it wants to tender it in

4 light of the recent decisions on admission into evidence of statements

5 which were obtained specifically for the purpose of information, witness

6 information, for these proceedings. So the Chamber would very much like

7 the Defence to see whether it still tenders it and is not satisfied with

8 just the quotes used in court.

9 Then we move to the next witness, a similar reconsideration will

10 be required from the Defence as far as D91 is concerned.

11 The Chamber would like to hear from that from the Defence.

12 Then the next one is P376, Pekka Haverinen being the witness.

13 Redactions had to be made, redactions have been made meanwhile, I think

14 that apart from these redactions to be made there were no objections.

15 Then P376 is admitted into evidence.

16 We move on to the next one, that's P367.

17 Yes, Mr. Emmerson?

18 MR. EMMERSON: There is a pending issue in respect of that

19 statement. I raised at the conclusion of the witness's testimony. Your

20 Honour will recall that that witness gave evidence at a time prior to the

21 current procedure having been established in respect of 92 ter witness

22 statements that objections be exchanged and then rulings sought. And I

23 had indicated that there was a passage in the witness's consolidated

24 witness statement to which I took objection but which was not elicited

25 from the witness in evidence-in-chief. And now is not the time to deal

Page 7538

1 with the matter. It will take a little while. But it relates to the

2 extent of the witness's --

3 JUDGE ORIE: That was not the redaction required? Because I

4 remember that the redaction required had something to do with that as

5 well. I mean the redaction was not protection but was a portion

6 inappropriate to be introduced through 92 ter.

7 MR. EMMERSON: I think it was not but may we check the position?


9 MR. EMMERSON: It relates essentially to the witness's ability to

10 describe the age of a tree.

11 JUDGE ORIE: I'll then perhaps -- let's not at this moment lose

12 time on this in court. The Chamber would like to be informed about the

13 redacted 92 ter statement of Pekka Haverinen and to see whether the

14 objection you just raised still stands.

15 MR. EMMERSON: It's my fault. If I've misled Your Honour, I was

16 referring to 367 which I thought Your Honour had moved on to.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Not yet. Not yet.

18 MR. EMMERSON: I thought you had. Number 16.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's almost the same number. That's 3 --

20 perhaps I misspoke.

21 MR. EMMERSON: I think Your Honour may have misspoken. That's why

22 I was on my feet.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I think you went too fast. I was starting P367 not

24 saying anything about it yet, and then you started already because for

25 367, I would have referred to some confusion as far as the admission of

Page 7539

1 this statement is concerned. I think it is page -- I think it's page 5992

2 in which, by the way also there is a mistake, because it says something

3 about 73 ter rather than 93 ter. Where Mr. Dutertre -- but even there I

4 could not exclude for the possibility of a translation error. I'm always

5 surprised that there is so little, as a matter of fact, where he said

6 there he said, "because we have admitted this statement under Article 73

7 ter," might have been that it is submitted.

8 There seems to be some unclarity as to whether the 92 ter

9 statement was admitted because there is no formal admission there and

10 since I do understand that there still is an objection in relation to

11 that, the Chamber would like to hear, as soon as possible, about 367 and

12 just to put things right on the record, where we admitted P376, that's the

13 Pekka Haverinen statement, that admission is final.

14 So then we move on to D41, in relation to Rrustem Tetaj, where the

15 OTP reserved its right to object but we have heard of no objection since.

16 It's the videoclip.

17 MR. RE: There is no objection to that.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Now, I have a question before giving a decision on

19 that. It's described as a videoclip showing the swearing-in ceremony in

20 Beranj dated the 20th of July, and then who they swore in, a large number

21 of volunteers. That's a nice description of part of the video.

22 The video as it was delivered and as it was uploaded as far as I

23 understand contains far more. It contains meetings, training sessions,

24 all kind of other things apart from the swearing in ceremony with a large

25 number of people present, a lot of signing, et cetera. But there is

Page 7540

1 certainly on that video, as we have it, there is far more on it. So

2 therefore I'd like to, before we admit it into evidence, we'd like the

3 Defence to check whether this exhibit is really limited to this and then

4 provide a new copy.


6 JUDGE ORIE: Or to explain why all the other parts are in it as

7 well.

8 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. The short answer is that that was the form in

9 which the videotape was disclosed to the Defence by the Prosecution. But

10 the only passage that was played and relied upon in evidence and upon

11 which the witness was questioned is the passage that was described in the

12 descriptive paragraph and therefore, we will ask the audiovisual unit to

13 cut the video to that passage and have that substituted for the video

14 that's on the exhibit at the moment.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Because the page in e-court describes it in

16 this way, and we have to be sure that the video which finally is handed

17 over to the registrar is the video containing only that portion.

18 MR. EMMERSON: We will make arrangements for it to be edited in

19 that way.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then I see that as far as Bogdan, Tomas is

21 concerned, we still have an objection by the OTP of which I don't have the

22 details at this moment, so I'd rather leave that for a moment. Otherwise

23 there would be no list left at all.

24 Next one Radovan Zlatkovic, I do understand that there is an issue

25 raised in respect not of the 92 statement itself but only in relation to

Page 7541

1 annex 10 to that. That would be P864. Is that correctly understood?

2 There is an issue taken on that?

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe that there have been appropriate

4 redactions made to the 92 ter statement, so with that in mind there is no

5 objection with regard to the 92 ter statement.


7 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to, I believe that there were

8 objections both to annex 10 and with regard to annex 11, it was agreed

9 that annex 11 would not be part of this particular 92 ter statement and

10 was taken out in toto is my understanding.

11 JUDGE ORIE: The problem is here that the annexes received

12 separate numbers. And so therefore, 865, Mr. Re, if it's not clear to you

13 that's no problem, then we have identified where the problems are, they

14 remain on the list, all the others are removed from the list. May I then

15 take it that P864, being annex 10 to the 92 ter statement, and P865, which

16 is annex 11 to the 92 ter statements, that we'll further hear from whether

17 they are withdrawn, whether they are still objections pending?

18 MR. RE: I believe Mr. Dutertre and Mr. Guy-Smith can maybe work

19 something out on that one.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. So P864 and P865 are still on the list. There

21 are, from what I understand, there are no objections raised against P854

22 which is the 92 ter statement through P863 which is the annexes up to and

23 including annex 9 to the 92 ter statement.

24 No objections, admitted into evidence.

25 Then we have P866 through P883, all annexes to the -- all annexes

Page 7542

1 to the 92 ter statement of Radovan Zlatkovic. Any objections? Then P866

2 through P883 are admitted into evidence.

3 Finally in relation to Witness Zlatkovic, on the list D153 which

4 is an RDB official note, perhaps should have been on the list, admission

5 not being determined yet. If the Prosecution would like to take its time

6 to see what it is, fine. Otherwise, we'll decide on the admission.

7 I think we look at the clock. D153 still is on the list.

8 All the other items on the list are not to be discussed at this

9 very moment. We will -- I think the interpreters and technicians and

10 transcribers, but also security for these additional minutes not requested

11 but implicitly granted. I feel a bit guilty.

12 We will adjourn. We are not sitting on Monday. We will adjourn

13 until Tuesday, the 28th of August, at 9.00 in the morning in this same

14 courtroom but not until I've announced to the parties that the

15 representative of the Registry, who has assisted us so splendidly in this

16 case until now, is going to leave us, which the Chamber regrets.

17 MR. EMMERSON: On behalf of all parties, Defence and Prosecution,

18 we would wish to express our thanks for the efficient and courteous manner

19 in which she has performed her functions to all of us.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Then we stand adjourned until Tuesday, the 28th of

21 August, 9.00 in the morning.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day of

24 August, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.