1 Thursday, 30 August 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.18 a.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor
9 versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 The Chamber would like to inform the parties that pursuant to Rule
12 15 bis (A), today's hearing will take place in the absence of Judge Stole.
13 Judge Stole is ill and Judge Hoepfel and myself concluded that it's in
14 the interests of justice to continue the trial without Judge Stole. As
15 far as we can see, the illness will not take very long.
16 Mr. Emmerson.
17 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I've asked that we have a moment
18 before the witness is brought in.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Just to discuss again the question of timing, and I
21 need to ask Your Honour for an extra 30 minutes on the allocation that you
22 had agreed I could have today. In other words, Your Honour had indicated
23 an hour today and I'm going to have to ask Your Honour for an hour and a
25 JUDGE ORIE: First session -- I do understand that some new
1 elements came up also in view of the notes which, of course, could not be
2 foreseen at an earlier stage -- at least these are part of the notes which
3 were not copied.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
5 JUDGE ORIE: And at the same time I think we had a rather
6 successful meeting this morning on the 92 ter statement of the next
7 witness which will certainly reduce the time in chief we would need for
8 him, and although it was assessed that it would be only 15 minutes I was
9 very much afraid that it would take more.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: So therefore I was a bit -- I kept a bit on the safe
12 side in time scheduling.
13 If we get started we lose as little time.
14 MR. EMMERSON: May I indicate one matter to Your Honour, a detail,
15 before the witness comes in. On the photocopied sheet of notes that you
16 have in front of you, Your Honours may see towards the spine there is a
17 vertical line written on the right-hand side of the spine which ends in a
18 circle around the name Ganimete Gashi.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. EMMERSON: I should indicate those markings were put on the
21 photocopy, the only photocopy, that was provided before these subsequent
22 copies were made. In other words, that line and that circle do not appear
23 on the original in the witness's notebook and I'm just making that clear
24 so that obviously better copies will need to be made in due course.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 Then curtains down for the witness to be brought in and then we'll
2 continue in open session, although with face and with voice distortion and
3 with pseudonym.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Again, just to indicate --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 MR. EMMERSON: For convenience I have had printed out four pages
7 of transcript -- three pages of transcript from yesterday which deal with
8 questions I put to the witness concerning Kemal and Mejdin Gashi and
9 answers the witness gave yesterday which will be helpful --
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine as such, but of course the Judges can
11 consulted, as you may have noticed, whatever parted of the transcript or
12 the whole of the trial --
13 MR. EMMERSON: Of course. I thought it might be helpful for Your
14 Honours to cast an eye over it as the witness was answering the questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
16 I take the opportunity to inform the public that, as we did
17 before, that the Chamber meets with the parties to see to what extent it
18 can assist in resolving discussions about what is appropriately and what
19 is not appropriately introduced in a 92 ter statement. The Chamber
20 encourages the parties to develop such skills that they can do it without
21 the assistance of the Chamber, but up to the moment we are that far the
22 Chamber is available either from 10.00 p.m. Or on from 7.30 in the
24 [The witness entered court]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Good morning, Witness 17. I'd like to remind you
1 that you're still bound by the solemn declaration that you gave at the
2 beginning of your testimony. And I'd also like to know whether the
3 original of your notes have been returned to you yesterday.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning. Yes, I received them.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Emmerson will now continue his
7 Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.
8 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
9 I wonder if the witness could be handed the single sheet of note
11 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/17 [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson: [Continued]
14 Q. If you can just -- for the moment, Witness 17, if you could place
15 that face-down. Yesterday I asked you some questions about a soldier
16 under your command, Mejdin Gashi, and this is transcript 7702 to 7704,,
17 and I asked you about an incident which he has testified about where his
18 father was detained as a suspected collaborator and taken by one of your
19 FARK officers called Musa Dragaj to Mete Krasniqi's office. And you said
20 to us yesterday that although Musa Dragaj was in the brigade you were not
21 aware of the case and you said you knew of no legitimate reason why any of
22 your subordinates could contact or cooperate with Mete Krasniqi over such
23 a case and you were aware of no such cooperation. That was your
24 testimony yesterday morning, Witness 17.
25 Could we now please look -- would you turn over the piece of paper
1 that is in front of you which is an extract from your notebook which you
2 handed to the registrar yesterday, and if you'd like, please, in the
3 original to find on the left-hand side a line that is crossed out. Do you
4 see that? On the front page there, Witness 17, left-hand side towards the
5 bottom there is a line crossed out. Do you see that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Would you please read slowly for us the words that
8 follow from that so that we have them on the transcript. Read them slowly
9 in Albanian. That is to say the words beneath the crossing out and the
10 whole of the right-hand side of the page, please.
11 A. From the place where "Shpetim Berisha" has been crossed out,
12 that's what you want me to read?
13 Q. Yes, from that place, please, beneath that.
14 A. "Ljumir from Peje has sent Kemal Gashi to the place in Qallapek to
15 see how many soldiers Mete has, the armament, and where they have been
16 stationed. Go towards Loxha. It has been said -- it is supposed that his
17 son" --
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter could not hear what the witness
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could I invite you because the interpreters need some
21 time to translate -- to start reading again but very slowly and speaking
22 well into the microphone so that the interpreters can hear you.
23 THE INTERPRETER: May the interpreters note that the interpreters
24 have not found the place where the witness is reading.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Has the sheet been provided --
1 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, the interpreters have the sheet in the booth.
2 If you look at the Albanian front page --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. EMMERSON: -- Left-hand side three-quarters of the way down
5 there is a line crossed out --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. EMMERSON: -- And the text begins beneath that line.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Thank you.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Would you please start again reading very slowly so
10 the interpreter can follow you.
11 MR. EMMERSON: There is also a draft translation attached.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You know interpreters usually do not work on
13 the basis of draft translations but take their responsibility for correct
15 Yes, could you please restart.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 "The security of Peje has sent Kemajl Gashi Mustafa to Peje with
18 a decision in Qallapek to see how many soldiers Mete has, their armament,
19 and how they have been stationed and to observe in the direction of Loxha.
20 It is supposed that his son is in the same direction, Baran" -- no, "he
21 lives in Visegradska, no number, payment 300 Deutschemarks.
22 "Kemajl Gashi - Peje, spy, 20th of the 7th, 1998, works for 300
23 Deutschemarks. He has been sent to the unit by Dragan Callouci, Bek Mucaj
24 has brought him. He's a businessman, up to Leshan. From Leshan Bek Nici
25 has brought him over here.
1 "Haxhi Kastrati, Raushiq, an academician in the art academy
2 volunteered on the 23rd of July to help the brigade.
3 "Mejdin Gashi, Street Visegrad, in Peje, 19th of the 7th, 1998.
4 "Gani Gashi.
5 "Ganimete Gashi - Mejdin's daughter is suspected to be a
6 collaborator of the police of Serbia.
7 "Soldier in our barracks (he does not know his father and his
9 "Saban Raucoj, Studenice by Peje he lives" --
10 MR. EMMERSON:
11 Q. Thank you. We can stop the extract there.
12 MR. HARVEY: Sorry to interrupt. During that translation just
13 before the words "soldier in our barracks, "I did hear the witness
14 say "Mejdin Gashi" and it did come over in translation and it doesn't
15 appear at page 7, line 9, and that should read "Mejdin Gashi."
16 MR. EMMERSON: I noticed the same line at the time.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Also on line 6 Afghani Gashi there's the word
19 JUDGE ORIE: Buqan. I don't know whether the witness read that or
20 not, but the parties have the opportunity to see what the witness -- what
21 the paper was from which the witness read and this is now on the record.
22 MR. EMMERSON: I think --
23 JUDGE ORIE: I can't see --
24 MR. EMMERSON: -- It's sufficient for present purposes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- Whether the witness read -- we can continue on the
1 basis of the corrections.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note the witness mentioned
3 Mejdin Gashi; it was an error on the part of the interpreter.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for informing us.
5 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
6 Q. Why did you tell us yesterday that you didn't know about this
7 case, Witness 17?
8 A. What was I supposed to say about this case? I cannot have all the
9 names of all the persons of my brigade in my head. That's why I kept
10 notes. It's impossible to have all the things that are in the
11 documentation in my head.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 17, if you have reasons to believe that your
13 memory doesn't serve you in details, you should tell us. If you don't
14 know about it --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what I wanted to say, yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, now. You didn't do that yesterday, did you?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I said that I don't know the
18 name of the soldier that was asked of me and it is very true that I cannot
19 remember all the names.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
21 MR. EMMERSON:
22 Q. That's all very well, Witness 17, but I specifically put to you
23 that a soldier in your brigade was called by Musa Dragaj to
24 Mete Krasniqi's office because his father was suspected of being a
25 collaborator. And you have in your notebook a note of that very same
1 soldier whose father is suspected of being a collaborator. Let's just be
2 clear about this. Leaving the name aside- and I asked you those questions
3 yesterday, Witness 17 - had you forgotten about this incident altogether?
4 A. I will say it again that I'm not aware. I do not recall at all
5 such an incident. I was not informed.
6 Q. Because would you agree that what you have recorded is that
7 Kemal Gashi was suspected of spying on Mete?
8 A. According to the note I see here, this shows that he has been sent
9 for this. But I did not have any other relevant or further facts.
10 Q. And that would be Mete Krasniqi, would it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So you knew that an allegation was being made that the father of a
13 soldier in your brigade was spying on Mete Krasniqi. Now, you told us
14 yesterday that there was no legitimate way in which an officer under your
15 command could contact or cooperate with Mete Krasniqi. Can you explain
16 that for us, please, Witness 17, because here we have you in your own
17 notebook recording that the father of one of your soldiers is spying on
18 Mete Krasniqi and yesterday you told us that he was no part of your
19 structure and that your officers could not legitimately cooperate with
21 A. Yes, that's correct. That's what I said yesterday, but in the
22 operational zone of the brigade where I needed to be informed about all
23 the things that were going on, and that's why I have this information in
24 my notebook.
25 Q. And so who do you think would have given you that information that
1 you wrote in your notebook, Witness 17, would it have been one of your
2 officers or Mete Krasniqi himself?
3 A. I have not noted it down; that is to say, I have not noted down
4 who gave me this information, and I don't remember.
5 Q. It's perfectly plain -- it is perfectly plain, I suggest, from
6 this passage that at the time you wrote this note you and your officers
7 were cooperating directly with Mete Krasniqi in the investigation of a
8 suspected collaborator who was the father of one of the soldiers in your
9 barracks. And I suggest that the evidence that you gave to us evidence
10 was a series of deliberate lies.
11 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I'm going to object to the form of that
12 question. Nothing about this note suggests that Mete Krasniqi is within
13 the brigade structure of this witness. To suggest that he is lying, I
14 believe, is inappropriate based on that foundation.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The objection is sustained.
16 Mr. Emmerson, the mere fact that you send someone to investigate a
17 person who is spying does not necessarily include -- and therefore your
18 language was too strong as far as direct cooperation between officers and
19 this person is concerned. Please proceed. This is not to say that you
20 could not pursue the matter perhaps in another way, but --
21 MR. EMMERSON:
22 Q. We've heard evidence, Witness 17, as you know because I told you
23 about it yesterday, that this young man, Mejdin Gashi, was taken to Mete
24 Krasniqi's office and that it was Mete Krasniqi who was conducting the
25 investigation into the suspected collaboration. If that's right, how did
1 the information end up in your notebook if there was no cooperation
2 between you, your officers, and Mete Krasniqi?
3 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I have to object again. I'm very sorry
4 to interrupt my colleague, but the form of this question makes it almost
5 impossible for this witness to answer.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Let's see what the answer of the witness all right,
7 Mr. Kearney.
8 MR. KEARNEY: All right, the ...
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to say that our
10 legitimate structure I never had any contact with Mete Krasniqi about
11 these things first; and second, I said this and I stand by it. Everything
12 that happened in Lugu i Baranit I wanted to know about them, good things,
13 bad things, I wanted to know about them and I noted them down; and third,
14 Mejdin Gashi, he's a soldier in our barracks and he says that he does not
15 know his father and his opinions. I have said this here and it is clear
16 that Mejdin Gashi had nothing to do with Mete Krasniqi or anybody else,
17 according to the notes in my notebook.
18 MR. EMMERSON:
19 Q. Yes. And that information about Mejdin Gashi's position came, I
20 suggest, as a result of him being interviewed by Mete Krasniqi, as he has
21 told us, being asked questions by Mete Krasniqi about whether or not he
22 shared his father's position. And so somehow that information that was
23 provided by Mejdin Gashi to Mete Krasniqi has found its way into your
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney.
1 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, all but the last question about how
2 this information got into his notebook calls for speculation on behalf of
3 this witness.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No. As a matter of fact, how this information comes
5 into his notebook if the witness has written down these notes himself,
6 then he is the one to answer question how that information reached him,
7 which he then did write down.
8 MR. KEARNEY: I completely agree with the Trial Chamber. That's
9 what I said, the last sentence about how the notes got there is a worthy
10 area of inquiry, but the speculation about what Mejdin Gashi was thinking
11 is speculation --
12 JUDGE ORIE: If you write down something, and until now I
13 understood these notes, apart from the second portion of the notes which
14 are the different handwriting and what the witness said that is not what I
15 did write down, where he earlier said what he did write down in his notes,
16 whether he did it the same day or he did it the other way. So the witness
17 is perfectly in a position to tell us where the information came from, he
18 did write down --
19 MR. EMMERSON: I think Mr. Kearney may be labouring under a
20 misapprehension as well because what I was putting to the witness was the
21 testimony of Mejdin Gashi that he was interviewed by Mete Krasniqi, not
23 JUDGE ORIE: No.
24 So the question to you now is: Where did you get the information
25 you did write down in your notebook on this matter?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During my stay in Lugu i Baranit, I
2 collected information from different persons, first of all, from the
3 commanding structure of the brigade and its elements that I mentioned
4 yesterday. Then I received information from the local village commanders
5 in the Lugu i Baranit and also information from ordinary people. So for
6 the moment, I'm not in the position and I do not recollect who gave me
7 this information that I noted in my notebook.
8 JUDGE ORIE: At the same time, Mr. Emmerson has put it to you that
9 what you did write down includes the -- what the son knows about his
10 father and his opinions. And we received evidence that that son was
11 interviewed about this matter, interviewed by Mete Krasniqi. So
12 therefore, the Chamber has to consider that that might be the place and
13 the time and the person to whom he gave this information. Now, since you
14 said there was no legitimate contact between you and Mete Krasniqi, the
15 question arises: How then such information which is likely to have been
16 obtained in this interview reached you. It could not be through village
17 commanders, at least that would need quite a lot of explanation.
18 Therefore, that is what is puzzling Mr. Emmerson and might puzzle the
19 Chamber as well.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not denying whether this soldier
21 was interviewed by Mete; however, I will repeat it again, that he was not
22 part of the brigade structure since the work of the military police in the
23 Lugu i Baranit went in two directions, and I have notes and documents by
24 Ramush from a meeting on the 26th of the seventh month in Irzniq. He
25 underlined at that meeting that the work of the military police in
1 Lugu i Baranit went in two different directions, one was the military
2 police of the brigade and the second direction was those people who
3 performed those duties before the arrival of the brigade. And he said
4 this clearly. So these two different directions were supposed to melt
5 into one, to become one, or the brigade to have this military police unit
6 within its structure for its own work. This is what I was trying to say
7 yesterday, that the structures, the existing structures before our arrival
8 in Baran and before the formation of the military police within the
9 framework of the brigade were not part of the structure of the command of
10 the brigade --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you are explaining to us again and again
12 and again about the structure. What we're interested to hear about is not
13 about what the formal structure was but what actually happened. Let me
14 put then a few quite simple questions to you. Were you aware that Mete
15 Krasniqi was still functioning de facto, that means in practice, as
16 someone who performed police duties? Whether or not he was part of the
17 structure, whether he was authorised to do that, different question. Was
18 he performing duties which are usually performed by a police officer?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was part of the structure of the
20 military police before our arrival in the area of Lugu i Baranit and he
21 continued to perform those duties.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. When he continued to perform those duties, were
23 you, whether authorised or not, were you receiving any information
24 resulting from these activities, whether this was in a hierarchy or
25 whether it was within a formal structure, yes or no. I'm not interested
1 in that. I'm just interested in whether you received, whether you
2 obtained, in whatever way, formal, informal, information about the result
3 of this performance of police-like duties.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the beginning, no, but later on,
6 JUDGE ORIE: Talking about mid-July, do you consider it possible
7 that some of what you did write down was information you obtained as a
8 result of Mete Krasniqi's performance of duties? Whether informal or not,
9 I'm not talking about that. Is it possible that this is information that
10 leaked from him -- his activities into your notebook?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is a possibility, but I
12 wouldn't be able to say right now who gave me this information because
13 personally I didn't have contacts with Mete Krasniqi regarding these
15 JUDGE ORIE: Now, Dragan Callouci, was that someone under your
17 MR. EMMERSON: Did Your Honour mean Musa Dragaj?
18 JUDGE ORIE: No. I'm talking about Dragan Kaluci.
19 Was that someone under your command? Bek Mucaj was he under your
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. These persons that you
22 mentioned were not there and I don't even know them.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, you did write down their names.
24 If you say you don't know them, these are the names we find in your notes,
25 isn't it?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If they appear on my notes, that
2 does not mean that they were in the brigade and that I knew them. I
3 simply made note of this just to inform myself about the structure of the
4 brigade. I think I am clear and I am sincerely telling you that I didn't
5 know them then. I don't know them now.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Nevertheless, you have written down these names in
7 relation to this matter. Now you tell us that you don't know the people,
8 they were not in your brigade. How did you get their names because you
9 did write them down, isn't it?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that I wrote down these
11 names with my own hand, but as I said I received information from
12 different channels. So I'm not able to tell you precisely from where I
13 got this particular information for these notes, from which channel.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, your notes describe that people were -- and it
15 is under the heading of Kemal Gashi, how they were taken and where they
16 were brought. And then it says "from Leshan Bek Nici takes over and
17 brings them here."
18 And usually if people write down "here" that refers to the place
19 where they are at that moment. Now, we heard evidence about that person
20 being brought to Mete Krasniqi, and we are wondering where you write down
21 that being brought "here," if that would be in Mete Krasniqi's office,
22 which you would not have excluded to be in the area where you were
23 working, how we have to reconcile that with a lack of whatever cooperation
24 between Mete Krasniqi and you and your subordinates and officers.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was no cooperation between
1 myself and Mete regarding these issues; however, as far as Kemal Gashi's
2 concerned, accordingly to the notes, I think that the person in question
3 is escorting these people from the zone outside and from the zone outside.
4 It is said here that he is working for 300 Deutschemarks, kind of
5 trafficking. This is the meaning that I think these notes have, although
6 I would not be able to tell you precisely whether "here" means Mete
7 Krasniqi's office or Baran. It means the zone because I made all my notes
8 within the frameworks of my zone. I wanted to know what was going on in
9 the zone in general.
10 JUDGE ORIE: And then finally the name Bek Nici, is that a name
11 familiar to you? Do you know who he is?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says "Bek Mucaj." I cannot
13 find "Nici" -- oh, yes, I found it, it's to the bottom. I don't know this
14 person at all.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
16 MR. EMMERSON:
17 Q. Just one last question on this document. It says that it is
18 suspected that his son is also of the same direction, and a little later
19 it says Ganimete Gashi is suspected of being a collaborator of the Serbian
20 police. Suspected by whom, Witness 17? Whose suspicion does that refer
22 A. According to the notes, I think I'm very clear that the person who
23 gave me this information came to me and told me these words: It is
24 suspected that this and that, and I recorded this information in my
25 notebook. It's just a note of the information that I received and that
1 further measures would be undertaken to verify this information. This is
2 what I think.
3 Q. And so if you weren't having direct contact with Mete Krasniqi, it
4 follows, doesn't it, that one of your officers was telling you that these
5 people were suspected?
6 A. This possibility also exists; I'm not denying that.
7 Q. Because you told us yesterday you could think of no legitimate way
8 with your authorisation that officers under your command could cooperate
9 with Mete Krasniqi. Is that still your answer, in the light of what
10 you've just told us?
11 MR. KEARNEY: Well, Your Honour, I'm going to object to the
12 word "cooperate" as vague. Does that mean communicate or work within a
13 brigade structure.
14 JUDGE ORIE: As large as possible --
15 MR. EMMERSON: I'm using the witness's own words.
16 "I'm not aware of any cooperation, legitimate cooperation, with
17 my authorisation or at my request and I don't know of any legitimate way
18 that my subordinates contacted him or coordinated with him."
19 Those are the witness's words from yesterday.
20 MR. KEARNEY: Well, perhaps we should phrase the question to him
21 in those words "contact" or "cooperate."
22 JUDGE ORIE: I think as a matter of fact -- well, so many words
23 have been spoken now since the question. Could you please put the
24 question to the witness again and do it in such a way that we could expect
25 to have no objections.
1 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
2 Q. Given that you accept that one of your officers communicated to
3 you the suspicion against these people, do you still say that you can
4 think of no legitimate circumstances in which your officers could
5 cooperate through the exchange of information about collaborators with
6 Mete Krasniqi?
7 A. Again, I will repeat what I said earlier. It may be true that I
8 received this information from my officers. It may be true. The
9 possibility still exists for this information to reach me through other
10 channels, but legitimately I would like to assure you again that there
11 were no direct contacts between myself or my officers and Mete Krasniqi.
12 However, private contacts, daily contacts, or people meeting in the street
13 and exchanging words with each other, this is impossible to prevent and I
14 cannot say with certainty whether there were such contacts or not, but not
15 in -- I don't have knowledge about that.
16 Q. And finally this: Do you recall now then, having been told that
17 there were -- that there was a suspected collaborator within your own
18 ranks, do you recall who you gave the responsibility to investigate that?
19 A. I didn't understand your question. You said within the ranks --
20 Q. Let me put it to you again. The information in your notebook puts
21 you on notice that the father of one of your own soldiers is suspected to
22 be a spy, his daughter suspected to be a Serb police collaborator, and
23 that there were suspicions that the son - one of your soldiers under your
24 command - was in the same direction. My question was: Learning that
25 information, what steps, if any, did you take to investigate it and to
1 whom did you entrust the investigation?
2 A. The interviews were carried out by Sadri Selca, while Hasan Gashi
3 did this from the military police. And the fact that I've written
4 here "Mejdin Gashi does not recognise his father," if we suppose that he
5 is a security worker or a spy, his opinion here about his father shows
6 that the person, the member of the brigade that is, distances himself from
7 his own father. And I must have received this information again from my
9 Q. I see. Can we move to another individual, please, Sanije Balaj.
10 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if the witness could be given the blue
11 file again and perhaps --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Usher, could you please assist him with this.
13 MR. EMMERSON: And would you be kind enough to turn him to tab 23.
14 Q. Now, you were exhibited this document as annex 19 to your 92 ter
15 statement and it's been given proposed Exhibit Number P897. This is a
16 report you tell us compiled by Sadri Selca on the 26th of August following
17 an investigation into the disappearance and the death of Sanije Balaj.
18 And the report says: "Sanije Balaj from Strellc i Poshtem was taken by
19 Mete Krasniqi from the village of Vranoc. I do not remember the date.
20 She was taken to the commander for an interview, and the commander then
21 authorised Cufa to talk to her."
22 Now, that reference to the commander, Witness 17, that is a
23 reference to you, isn't it?
24 A. I was the commander.
25 Q. Yes. Just to be clear, you've put this forward as your own
1 security officer's investigation and it indicates that Sanije Balaj was
2 taken by Mete Krasniqi to you for an interview. Now, let's be clear about
3 this. When you saw that note, did you recognise it as accurate, that Mete
4 Krasniqi had brought someone to you, a man with whom you say you do not
6 A. That's true.
7 Q. Well is the note accurate then or is it wrong what Sadri Selca
8 wrote down here? When you saw it, what do you think?
9 A. It is true that he stopped Sanije Balaj. I spoke with
10 Mete Krasniqi. He brought her to his office, and that's why I authorised
11 Cufe Krasniqi to go there and talk to find the reasons why this girl was
13 Q. So you knew that Mete Krasniqi had brought Sanije Balaj to Baran;
14 is that right?
15 A. Mete Krasniqi told me this himself and I mentioned earlier --
16 Q. Yes let's --
17 A. -- When this happened, when I met him in Qallapek.
18 Q. Let's not get confused. I'm not talking about after the event.
19 I'm talking on the day that she was taken in by Mete Krasniqi, Witness 17.
20 Now, this record indicates that she was taken by Mete Krasniqi to you.
21 Was she taken to you by Mete Krasniqi?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So when you saw this in Sadri Selca's note, why didn't you say to
24 him: This is plainly wrong, this isn't what happened?
25 A. You can see the date, 26th of eighth, 1998. These notes were
1 taken during the time when we began to withdraw from Lugu i Baranit.
2 Q. I see. But when you were looking at them and producing them in
3 your 92 ter statement, why did you not say: It says there that
4 Mete Krasniqi brought Sanije Balaj to me but that is plainly wrong because
5 I never had any dealings with Mete Krasniqi at all? We had no contact
6 whatsoever. Why didn't you say that in your 92 ter statement, Witness 17?
7 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, that misstates his own -- this
8 witness's testimony in the 92 ter statement. In the 92 ter statement he
9 admits to having contact with Mete on various occasions or at least one
10 occasion concerning this incident.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, the witness also made a distinction in
12 time what happened at earlier stages and later so perhaps you could
13 include --
14 MR. EMMERSON: I thought I corrected the witness's
15 misapprehension in the last question and answer.
16 Q. When you saw this indicating that on the day in question Mete was
17 brought to you, and you were referring to it in your statement why did you
18 not say, that is wrong?
19 MR. KEARNEY: Is he -- is Mr. Emmerson is now saying that Mete was
20 brought to him because in the note --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Let's reformulate --
22 MR. EMMERSON: That's a slip of the tongue and I apologise for it.
23 Q. The note makes it clear that your security officer was indicating
24 that Mete Krasniqi brought Sanije Balaj to you. And you have told us that
25 you had no official contacts with Mete Krasniqi. What I want to know is
1 when you saw this note why did you not say in your 92 ter statement that
2 is not correct and it could not be corrected because I did not have such
3 dealings with Mete Krasniqi?
4 MR. KEARNEY: Well --
5 JUDGE ORIE: The last portion, Mr. Emmerson, should have been --
6 MR. EMMERSON: Well --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. EMMERSON: If the point is not helpful, then I'll take it in a
9 different --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the question as such -- you said Sanije Balaj
11 was not brought to me, irrespective of what kind of contacts you had with
12 Mete Krasniqi. The question is where the report states that she was
13 brought to you why you had not pointed at the incorrectness of that
14 portion of the report.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't asked. Now that you asked
16 me the concrete question, I'm here to give you a very accurate reply.
17 Sanije was never brought to me and I had no contacts whatsoever with this
18 girl as far as this case is concerned. Why I did not mention this in the
19 past, I said that I wasn't asked. But it is possible that the official
20 who compiled the document was told that Sanije was brought to the offices
21 of the commander. But I'm telling you that Sanije Balaj was never brought
22 to my office. So this might be the mistake or the information is
24 MR. EMMERSON:
25 Q. Very well. Let me put another version to you which is slightly
1 different. Cufe Krasniqi has testified before the Tribunal that whilst he
2 was in the Baran barracks with you, Avni and Iber Krasniqi came to the two
3 of you and told you that a woman had been detained on suspicion of
4 collaboration. He says that they two, that is Avni and Iber Krasniqi,
5 spoke to both of you about this woman and that you then assigned
6 Cufe Krasniqi to interview her. That's transcript 5771 to 7. Is that
7 true, that account? Did Avni and Iber Krasniqi come to you whilst you
8 were in company with Cufe Krasniqi and say, We have detained a woman on
9 suspicion of collaboration?
10 A. I can't -- I'm not aware of this, that they came to me. However,
11 I had this information that a woman was there and I authorised Cufe to go
12 and talk.
13 Q. So you've told us, I think, haven't you, that you did not regard
14 Avni and Iber Krasniqi as part of your military police; is that correct?
15 A. They never were part of my police, my military police.
16 Q. And in fact in paragraph 80 of your 92 ter statement you described
17 them as men who were hindering your activities, taking cars, and detaining
18 civilians; is that right?
19 A. Very correct.
20 Q. Why did you authorise the detention of a woman who'd been brought
21 in by those two men, Witness 17?
22 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I believe that misstates this witness's
23 testimony. He authorised Cufe to go and talk to her once he was informed
24 she had been detained.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let's try to not lose ourselves in too much
1 details. If someone is detained and if you authorise someone to interview
2 the detainee and if you are the commander, then that implies acceptance of
3 the situation of detention at that time. So therefore, let's try to focus
4 on what it's really about and not about relatively unimportant details.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. EMMERSON:
7 Q. Let me put the question to you again. Why in those circumstances
8 did you authorise her continued detention, this woman who'd been arrested
9 by Mete Krasniqi, who'd been brought to the barracks, and where Avni and
10 Iber Krasniqi had come and brought her and raised her case with Cufe
11 Krasniqi? Why did you authorise her continued detention?
12 A. I never authorised her detention. I authorised Cufe to go and
13 check why she was there, but I couldn't have any control over the parallel
15 Q. I see. That involved Cufe, one of your officers, being sent to
16 interview somebody brought in by Mete Krasniqi, did it not?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you still say you can't think of any legitimate reason why with
19 your authorisation officers under your command would cooperate with Mete
20 Krasniqi? Because on your evidence it seems that you've directed that
21 they should.
22 A. No, that's not correct. There was cooperation before the arrival
23 of the brigade in Baran, and their private cooperation happened because
24 they were from the same village, they knew each other very well, and I
25 couldn't stop them from having those contacts. However, sending Cufe to
1 see why the girl was there was because I wanted to know why she had been
2 detained and why she had been sent to Mete's office. I wanted to know
4 Q. I see. If we look back at Sadri Selca's note it says: "After
5 Cufa released her, she was then taken to an unknown" -- I'm sorry. "She
6 was taken by a person known as Galan ... and by Avni Krasniqi. She was
7 then taken to an unknown place, but her liquidation was carried out by
8 Galan. In all probability, Togeri, the lieutenant, took her to Lake
10 Do you see that passage there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I want to ask you, please, to turn to tab 25 --
13 MR. EMMERSON: And for this purpose we should be in private
14 session, I'm sorry.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
16 [Private session]
11 Pages 7739-7741 redacted. Private session.
11 [Open session]
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
14 Mr. Emmerson.
15 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I'm entirely in Your Honour's hands. We
16 started I think at about 9.15. I'm entirely happy to run through the
17 break. I've got about 30 minutes of questions to ask the witness about
18 reports to Mr. Haradinaj allegedly made by him.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, of course, one second.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, the Chamber will allow you another 20
22 minutes and gives you as guidance that sometimes when you are
23 doing your -- making your best efforts to make a point that sometimes the
24 Chamber understands already what point you are making and even before you
25 think that you made the point, that the Chamber has taken the point
1 already. That means that sometimes you could move to the next topic a bit
2 earlier than you usually do. That's also the reason why we give you the
3 20 minutes --
4 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I accept the rebuke.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a break until five minutes to 11.00.
6 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
7 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
9 MR. EMMERSON:
10 Q. Witness 17, open in front of you is your witness statement made in
11 November 2004. For the record, it's tab 34 and paragraph 144. In that
12 paragraph you describe Idriz Balaj as the commander of the Black Eagles
13 and then there are two sentences which read as follows.
14 "I don't know of any incidents that were responsible for. Idriz
15 Balaj in general terms did as he pleased, but I cannot give you anything
17 And you wrote those words and signed that statement. Was that the
19 A. Yes, that's the truth.
20 Q. In the light of that I want to ask you some questions then,
21 please, about the meeting that you suggest took place on the 21st of
22 August, which you refer to in your 92 ter statement at paragraph 109,
23 where you say you reported crimes against civilians committed by
24 Idriz Balaj, Maliq Ndrecaj, and Faton Mehmetaj. Presumably if it's
25 correct that you knew of no concrete allegations of any crimes committed
1 by Idriz Balaj, you could not have communicate any allegations of specific
2 crimes committed by Idriz Balaj to Ramush Haradinaj, could you?
3 A. No, I did not speak to Ramush directly. Later we spoke about the
4 disciplining of Idriz Balaj and the taking of measures.
5 Q. Yes. Just to be clear, when you spoke on the 21st of August,
6 1998, to Ramush Haradinaj you did not and could not have told him about
7 specific crimes committed by Idriz Balaj, could you, because you didn't
8 know of any?
9 A. I pointed out to him that he should discipline him because there
10 were words that he was not behaving properly, and I also said earlier that
11 letters came to the Prapaqan command about his behaviour, the villagers
12 were complaining.
13 Q. You also told us that the letters that came to the Prapaqan
14 command contained no allegations of crimes; is that correct?
15 A. They contained complaints but not direct allegations for crimes.
16 Tahir Zemaj was more informed about this than I was.
17 Q. But you were there at the meeting, and just so that we're
18 absolutely clear you imply a criticism of Ramush Haradinaj for failing to
19 discipline Idriz Balaj after the meeting of the 21st of August or failing
20 to remove him, but it follows from the evidence that you've given, does it
21 not, that you gave him no allegations with any specific crimes alleged
22 which were capable of being investigated or resulting in disciplinary
24 A. I said that we did not speak about such things because at that
25 time, this was some kind of a taboo theme. People did not dare to raise
1 such issues, but as regards the disciplining I told him that he should
2 have been disciplined about the incident between me and Toger.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, could we move on.
4 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
5 Q. The same is true of Maliq Ndrecaj is it not, that at that meeting
6 you made no specific allegations of crimes committed by Maliq Ndrecaj?
7 A. Maliq Ndrecaj behaved improperly, and he did not obey what he was
8 told to do and Tahir was responsible for him because it was -- he was in
9 his area of responsibility.
10 Q. Please answer my next question yes or no, Witness 17. At the
11 meeting on the 21st of August, neither you nor Tahir Zemaj conveyed any
12 allegations of specific crimes committed or allegedly committed by
13 Maliq Ndrecaj, did you?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Thank you. And as far as Faton Mehmetaj is concerned perhaps you
16 wouldn't mind briefly turning to tab 29 in the bundle. This is a document
17 that you have produced.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Similar from the floppy disk.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Well, in fact, this is a document which is annexed,
20 I believe, to the witness's 92 ter statement. I'm just -- I do apologise.
21 I've put to one side my index.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps you move on and then we'll hear about the
23 origin of the document.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
25 Q. Let me ask you, please, to look at tab 29. This is an unsigned
1 document which you referred to in your 92 ter statement dealing with the
2 appointment of commanders after Tahir Zemaj had taken over as the overall
3 commander. We can see that it is dated the 22nd of August and it bears
4 Tahir Zemaj's name in type script at the bottom. Do you see that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Can you confirm, please, then that after this meeting that you say
7 that you had with Ramush Haradinaj on the 21st of August, Tahir Zemaj
8 appointed Faton Mehmetaj as assistant for morale?
9 A. After the meeting of the 20th of August, 1998, and the change of
10 command or the joining up of all forces, Tahir Zemaj and Ramush Haradinaj
11 agreed on the formation of the command, and it was Ramush's proposal that
12 Faton Mehmetaj be an assistant for morale.
13 Q. I'm not asking you whose proposal it was. I'm simply asking you
14 to confirm that on the 22nd of August, the day after the meeting that you
15 have described with Ramush Haradinaj, Tahir Zemaj issued an order
16 appointing Faton Mehmetaj as part of the staff with responsibility for
17 morale; is that correct?
18 A. The document and the names are correct.
19 Q. And I just want to ask you about one thing, if I can, please. You
20 are listed there in this document as head of operational staff. Is that a
21 role that you were given at that meeting, Witness 17?
22 A. No, not head but chief of operative staff.
23 Q. Yes. Well, that may simply be a translation issue. Would you
24 look behind tab 30, please, and can I ask you -- because the document
25 we've just been looking at behind tab 29, produced by you is unsigned.
1 The one behind tab 30 bears a signature. Is that the signature of
2 Tahir Zemaj?
3 A. It can be, yes, it can be.
4 Q. You see, in all respects this document is identical to the one
5 that you have produced- and can I indicate there's an error in the
6 translation. The English translation of the communique starts with the
7 words: "On the 28th of August," it should read as you see on the
8 original: "On the 20th of August."
9 In all respects, this document is identical except it is signed
10 and your name isn't on it as Chief of Staff. The name of Sali Veseli
11 seems to have been appointed Chief of Staff by the document signed by
12 Mr. Zemaj. Can you help us about that, please. How does your name come
13 to be on the other list and his on this one?
14 A. I can explain in detail. Ramush knows that this is what they
15 agreed on with Tahir, but Sali Veseli at the time was not present in
16 Kosova. He was sent to Albania for organisational purposes at the order
17 of Ramush Haradinaj, and Ramush himself said that if he does not return in
18 time we will have this change. That's why the change was made of point 3,
19 which means the chief of operative staff because Sali Veseli did not come
20 on time.
21 Q. I think -- I want, if I may, just go briefly into private session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 7748-7750 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, please proceed.
23 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if the usher could just take the witness
24 to tab 34 again, please.
25 Q. This is the statement, Witness 17, that you made in November of
1 2004 and could he please be taken to paragraph 120. I want to ask you
2 about the last sentence of paragraph 120 of your November 2004 witness
3 statement where you say this: "Din Krasniqi is a paediatrician and was
4 either the self-proclaimed commander of Baran or was appointed by KLA
5 Commander Ramush Haradinaj."
6 Now, you told us yesterday you had no personal knowledge of the
7 system of appointment, but I wonder how you can help us, if you can,
8 please, to reconcile that statement in your witness statement with the
9 testimony you gave yesterday, that Din Krasniqi told you himself that he
10 had been appointed by Ramush Haradinaj. Why, if that was told to you, in
11 terms, did you say in your November 2004 statement that he was either the
12 self-proclaimed commander or had been appointed?
13 A. Because with the arrival of the brigade at Baran he continued to
14 perform his post and refused to enter the structure of the brigade and
15 become one with us. That's why during the meetings with him he would
16 state that Ramush appointed him, but I didn't have any official document
17 that would prove his words right. This is why I'm saying here that he was
18 either a self-proclaimed commander or appointed by Ramush Haradinaj.
19 Q. Yes, thank you.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Those are my questions.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith -- oh, Mr. Harvey.
22 You'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Harvey, who's counsel for
23 Mr. Brahimaj.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:
25 Q. Good afternoon, Witness -- good morning, Witness 17. As His
1 Honour has just explained, I represent Lahi Brahimaj. Can we just agree
2 on one or two things at the outset. You never knew Lahi Brahimaj before
3 September of 1998, would you agree with that?
4 A. No, I would say before September.
5 Q. You first met him in a meeting that was attended by Hashim Thaqi;
6 isn't that correct?
7 A. Yes. To my recollection, it occurred in Prapaqan.
8 Q. We'll come to the date of that meeting in a little while. You
9 personally never went to Jabllanice, did you?
10 A. That's true, I never went there.
20 JUDGE ORIE: We move into private session.
21 [Private session]
11 Pages 7754-7762 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
2 MR. HARVEY:
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --
7 MR. EMMERSON: Could we go into private session, please.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we turn into private session.
9 [Private session]
11 Pages 7765-7779 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: Sorry for the interruption. Your Honours, we're
1 back in open session, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH:
4 Q. Are you familiar with a group of paramilitaries called
5 Arkan's Tigers?
6 A. Not personally, but I've heard about them and their activities in
7 Bosnia and Kosova.
8 Q. And referring to their activities in Kosovo, they were known for
9 being a group of individuals who massacred, murdered, and engaged in
10 committing serious crimes against the population of the Kosovar people,
12 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I'm going to object as to relevance
13 unless my colleague can tie it specifically somehow to this case.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I can and I will.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Then with this clear commitment, Mr. Kearney, I
16 suggest that we'll wait and see what the next questions will be.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH:
18 Q. Do you have my question in mind, sir?
19 A. The massacres committed by the paramilitary and mercenary forces
20 of Serbia and the forces of Arkan I'm well aware of those massacres, and
21 it is more than true what you said.
22 JUDGE ORIE: We're talking about the reputation at this moment,
23 not about any personal knowledge. Please proceed.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's correct.
25 Q. In your statement in 2004 you indicated that you had heard that
1 Idriz Balaj - and this is paragraph 145 - participated with Arkan's Tigers
2 in Bosnia. First of all, who did you get this information from?
3 A. I mentioned - and I will repeat it again - this is what I heard.
4 There were rumours about this. I'm not saying that it is accurate. It
5 was said, there were rumours, that he did take part. I did hear these
6 rumours, but I don't remember from whom. I believe it was upon our
7 entering Kosova in 1998.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, if the witness confirms now that it's
9 rumours, where he even says: "I don't know where I heard about the
10 rumours," and then that he immediately adds that whether it's true or not,
11 then if it stays at this level --
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Then I don't --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then we don't have to focus --
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't pursue it any further.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think the point is made generally in terms of
17 rumours and my client.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH:
20 Q. Do you know of an individual by the name of Gani Gjukaj? I
21 believe he, if I'm not mistaken, was a FARK soldier, correct?
22 A. He was a FARK officer.
23 Q. I see, a FARK officer.
24 A. I know him very well.
25 Q. Did you ever discuss the Sanije Balaj incident and situation with
2 A. I don't know. I don't remember at all.
3 Q. I'm going to read something from a statement that he made to the
4 Office of the Prosecutor, this is behind tab 27, specifically paragraph
5 22, and ask whether or not you ever heard the same information that he
6 speaks to, which is here --
7 MR. KEARNEY: I'm sorry, counsel, did you say tab 27? It's not
8 behind mine, my tab 27 is a decision --
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: In the blue binder.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I find 27.
11 MR. KEARNEY: My mistake. I'm a little colour-blind right now,
12 Your Honour, I'm sorry.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry, it's purplish-blue.
14 JUDGE ORIE: It cannot be treated as colour-blindness.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH:
16 Q. "I never heard the name "Toger" associated with the disappearance
17 of Sanije Balaj. I would meet with Toger and he respected and listened to
18 me. Toger was a great warrior and was very disciplined. He was perhaps
19 more aggressive than some others."
20 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please finish reading the rest of the
21 paragraph, Mr. Guy-Smith.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Surely.
23 Q. "Only one or two people wore black uniforms."
24 My first question is: Did you ever receive any information - and
25 now I'm asking you for a negative here - that no one had ever mentioned
1 Toger being associated with the disappearance of Sanije Balaj?
2 JUDGE ORIE: This is a question, Mr. Guy-Smith, which could create
3 a lot of confusion. Whether positively someone heard that it was never --
4 so someone saying --
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I see the slippery path as you begin --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- And I'll leave it alone.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH:
10 Q. And finally, in your 92 ter statement at paragraph 110 you
11 indicated that you went to Toger's headquarters in Irzniq and that the
12 headquarters was in a former school on the edge of the village on an
13 elevated site, and it is that particular statement that I wish to question
14 you about, that the headquarters was in a former school on the edge of the
15 village on an elevated site.
16 MR. KEARNEY: May we scroll down just a little further, Your
17 Honour, so the witness can read the sentence that's being presented to
18 him. Thank you.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH:
21 Q. I suggest to you that that was not the headquarters of Toger, it
22 was never the headquarters of Toger, whether or not you had a meeting
24 A. We had meetings in Irzniq, and that's a fact. Our meetings were
25 held in the Irzniq school, and present for Ramush, Toger, and other people
1 who were involved in these issues. The school in Irzniq, everybody knows
2 where it is and that's where we had our meetings.
3 Q. I appreciate that. My point to you, sir, is that the headquarters
4 of Toger were not at that school.
5 A. It is possible that it wasn't, but I believe that after the fall
6 of Gllogjan on the 11th of August, during that offensive, they retreated
7 and then Toger came and established his headquarters in the school in
8 Irzniq. I think this is the truth.
9 Q. And finally, sir, apart from the fact that you had heard rumours
10 about Toger being associated with Arkan's Tigers in Bosnia, did you ever
11 receive any information whatsoever that Idriz Balaj had ever been in
12 Bosnia at all in any function, let alone a military one?
13 A. No, never. I don't know anything about this issue.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
16 I'm looking at the clock. We'll have a break now until five
17 minutes past 1.00. Mr. Kearney would then have 40 minutes remaining. How
18 much time would you need?
19 MR. KEARNEY: Hopefully not all of that, Your Honour. Hopefully I
20 can get it done in 30 minutes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If you could try and squeeze it in as good as
22 you can. Then there's another matter. The Chamber would like to be
23 informed whether there are any objections to the annexes to the 92 ter
24 statement so we don't have a debate once the witness has left us. I
25 remember that number 18, Mr. Guy-Smith, you might not insist on it being
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I have been actually persuaded by the combined
3 efforts of the Prosecution and the Defence that I would not -- that I
4 would --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay --
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- Retract my previous position.
7 JUDGE ORIE: If there's any other annex which would find
8 objections from the Defence, then the Chamber would like to know that.
9 MR. EMMERSON: There's certainly an objection in relation to I
10 think it's annex 17.
11 JUDGE ORIE: 17, okay.
12 MR. EMMERSON: The bulk of that, Mr. Kearney, as I understood, had
13 agreed to remove unless I've got my numbers --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then my next request would be that the Chamber be
15 informed about any agreement on the part of annex 17 being removed and
16 whether there's agreement on that.
17 I further inform the parties that the attempts to see whether we
18 could deal with the next witness tomorrow, that although there is a
19 courtroom available that it might not easy to compose a CLSS team for such
20 a hearing but I have not given up hope yet.
21 We -- Mr. Harvey. I'm informed that you would not be available.
22 You would try to find out whether Mr. Troop is.
23 MR. HARVEY: I am trying to find out that he is, Your Honour. I
24 do know that we have an important meeting that is scheduled with our
25 client. You realise it is difficult to do this during the ordinary
1 working week the course of week.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. HARVEY: And we have a very important witness coming up from
4 our standpoint next week that we wish to meet with our client about
5 tomorrow and that had been booked from 12.00 until 3.00.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. HARVEY: We will obviously try and work with the Court in
8 every way that we can but I do urge on, Your Honour, that this is a matter
9 of considerable importance to the defence of Mr. Brahimaj that that
10 meeting should be able to take place tomorrow.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Which leaves it open, you said from 1.00 to 3.00?
12 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE ORIE: So a late start might help you out?
14 MR. HARVEY: It might.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Just -- we do not know. We also have a reschedule
16 meetings, et cetera. We have a break until ten minutes past 1.00.
17 --- Recess taken at 12.47 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 1.12 p.m.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Any agreement to be reported on annex 17?
20 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, I have spoke to my colleague. I think
21 in an abundance of caution we're going to need the evening to read through
22 to see if we can compare items down from that. If we can notify the Court
23 and our colleagues either later tonight or tomorrow morning.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But none of the others are objected to?
25 Mr. Harvey, I'm looking to you as well. I know that the line that those
1 who do not respond agree is a disputed line, especially if they appear in
2 statements --
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: No silence, no silence.
4 JUDGE ORIE: No silence.
5 Mr. Kearney, please proceed.
6 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Kearney:
8 Q. Witness 17, good afternoon. Witness 17, I want to ask you some
9 more questions about Sadri Selca's notes. You were asked in yesterday's
10 session at great length by Mr. Emmerson about certain events that were
11 chronicled in those notes.
12 MR. KEARNEY: And I'd like to, Your Honours, if I may, call up
13 annex 18 to the 92 ter statement at this stage and I'd like to present --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Could you give the provisional exhibit number.
15 MR. KEARNEY: It's 896.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. KEARNEY: And I'll be referring to page 13 or -- excuse me,
18 page 8 of the English --
19 JUDGE HOEPFEL: You're speaking of P896?
20 MR. KEARNEY: Yes and I would ask -- that's the right page. Thank
22 Q. Witness 17, yesterday it was suggested to you by Mr. Emmerson that
23 the final entry on this page, referring to Istref Krasniqi from Turjake,
24 was an entry reflecting a detention conducted by Mr. Selca. I want to
25 follow-up on that, if I may. Do you know for certain if that entry
1 relating to Mr. Krasniqi refers to an actual detention by Sadri Selca or
2 is it simply his reporting the results of one of his investigations --
3 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I object to the form of the question.
4 It's being put in the form of a suggestion. The witness was asked to
5 comment on this passage and he said in his testimony that it was clear
6 that this was an individual who had been detained, as the others had been
7 detained. And for Mr. Kearney now to put suggestions to the witness in a
8 leading form in re-examination in our submission is unhelpful and not a
9 proper way to re-examine.
10 MR. KEARNEY: Well, Your Honour, the reason why I'm pursuing this
11 line of questioning is I believe --
12 JUDGE ORIE: It's not the line of questioning, it's the form of
13 the questioning.
14 MR. KEARNEY: I believe, given the conduct of my colleague related
15 to this entry, it is important to give this witness a chance to clarify
16 that answer. And if I can be allowed --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Okay what you can do --
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I --
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- If you then draw the attention of the witness to
20 what he said yesterday and then you invite him to make any further
21 comments as to what his testimony yesterday. That would be the
22 appropriate way of doing it. And if you could guide me to the relevant
23 page of yesterday, Mr. Kearney, that would certainly assist me.
24 MR. KEARNEY: Yes, Your Honour, it's page -- transcript page 7678.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
1 MR. KEARNEY:
2 Q. Witness 17, I'd like to ask you - this is at line 5 on page 7678 -
3 I'd like to read you a question and answer from yesterday's testimony
4 about this passage.
5 "Q. This is a list of people that Sadri Selca is recorded as
6 having been brought into your barracks for questioning, isn't it?"
7 Your answer is: "Yes, of course, he must have brought in these
8 people because he has kept these notes after the talks or conversations
9 with them as it appears from what I see."
10 Now, my question relates to the language you use in your answer,
11 namely, "he must have brought in these people ..."
12 I want to ask you relating to this last entry in annex 18 if you
13 know that Istref Krasniqi was brought in by Sadri Selca for questioning to
14 your barracks in Baran?
15 A. I'm not that sure where he had his conversation. I said that he
16 must have brought him there because he had an office in the Baran
17 barracks. Whether he had been detained or not, that does not stand. I
18 reject that. These notes are Sadri Selca's note -- notes, not mine. It
19 was alleged here that they are mine but they are not. He gave them to me
20 and I submitted them to the Prosecution.
21 Q. Thank you for that answer, Witness 17. I'd like to follow-up.
22 You said that: "Whether he had been detained or not, that does not stand,
23 I reject that."
24 Could you please explain that answer for the Trial Chambers. What
25 do you mean by that?
1 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first ask the witness what he personally
2 knows about the whole matter apart from having read the notes because that
3 seems to be the issue.
4 You have given this document to the Office of the Prosecution, you
5 have been read what it says about Imer Krasniqi from the village of
6 Turjake, Peje, was taken regarding his collaboration with the Serbian
7 police and several other cases. What do you personally know about
8 Imer Krasniqi taken for an interview, apart from what you read here.
9 THE WITNESS: Nothing else, and there's nothing in my mind about
10 his being brought there. I cannot say anything.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
12 MR. KEARNEY:
13 Q. In items -- the item referring to Imer Krasniqi as item 19 on that
14 page, in both items 17 and 18 Sadri Selca specifically notes, quoting:
15 "The two individuals that are the subject of those paragraphs were
16 brought to Baran by the military police of the 3rd/131st Brigade."
17 Now, the 3rd/131st Brigade is your brigade; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, 131st Brigade.
19 Q. And there were occasions that you know of personally when Sadri
20 Selca brought individuals into your brigade for questioning; is that
22 A. It was his task. He had that responsibility and he carried out
23 that task. That happened in some cases, but interviews cannot be called
25 Q. My question to you, Witness 17, is simply this: In paragraph 19
1 there's no reference to this gentleman, Mr. Krasniqi, being brought into
2 the military police headquarters of the 3rd/131st Brigade. Is that
3 correct? Am I reading that document correctly?
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, if the witness would say "no," then it
5 make -- the Chamber would not accept such an answer. If the Chamber
6 says -- if the witness says "yes," then he confirms something the Chamber
7 can read as well.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, thank you.
10 MR. EMMERSON: May I add that this is an extract from a long list
11 that begins two pages earlier, in some of which is there is a specific
12 reference to individuals people and in others there is not.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but this is comment on how Mr. Kearney -- what
14 his references for his questioning. And we'll leave that to Mr. Kearney.
15 At the same time, we can read that there's no reference to the brigade
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. KEARNEY:
19 Q. You had also specifically tasked Sadri Selca to investigate
20 illegal abductions and executions being conducted by the KLA; is that a --
21 is that correct?
22 A. I assigned him as the person responsible for security, and he had
23 to check all the irregularities that were going on and keep evidence on
25 Q. Now, this note that was entered into Mr. Selca's notes occurred on
1 4 September 1998; is that correct?
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: At this point --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- I'm going to object to leading. This is a
5 document that was proffered by the Prosecution with their witness, and at
6 this point it's inappropriate for him to be leading on re-direct
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time asking a lot of questions
9 about what we all read in this report -- I mean, of course it could be
10 that something has been left out after the entry of the 4th of September,
11 but we find under 11, 2nd of September, we find below 14, before 15, we
12 find the 4th of September. So unless there's any specific reason to
13 believe that this is incorrect, there's no need to further ask about it,
14 just as there should be no real objection against leading in this respect.
15 Please proceed.
16 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you for that guidance, Your Honour.
17 Q. Witness 17, this Trial Chamber has heard evidence that Istref and
18 Nurije Krasniqi were abducted at midnight on 12 July 1998 by four soldiers
19 of the UCK and never seen again alive. I want to ask you if on 12 July
20 1998 Sadri Selca was working in your brigade as a military police
22 A. I can't remember whether he was there on the 12th of July. I
23 think he came later there because the 12th of July is the date when the
24 brigade went there, to Baran.
25 Q. Isn't the 12th of July, Witness 17, your first actual day in the
1 Baran Valley?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. On your first day in the Baran Valley, did you dispatch four men
4 to Turjake to abduct and execute the Krasniqis?
5 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, I'm not at all clear what the thrust of this
6 question is. The entry at 19 has nothing to do with Nurije and
7 Istref Krasniqi being taken from anywhere; it has to do with their son,
8 Imer Krasniqi, being taken in for questioning.
9 MR. KEARNEY: It has to do with Istref being abducted.
10 MR. EMMERSON: With the greatest of respect, it's plain from the
11 text itself. "Imer (Istref)" means Imer, son of Istref Krasniqi, was
12 taken in for interview.
13 JUDGE ORIE: If we would not comment on what it means, whereas
14 many useless questions are put to the witness here, there is a matter
15 where we could try to find out how the witness aware of what was usually
16 done, how he understands this. And of course he has given already
17 evidence on how the names were listed of the soldiers. We could ask him
18 whether he understood this, in view of all the other entries, to reflect
19 the same system.
20 Why -- Witness 17, the entry under 9 - is it on the screen for the
21 witness? Yes - the entrance under 9 says "Imer (Istref) Krasniqi," how do
22 you understand this? To what person does this refer, since we have one
23 first name within brackets and another one just there. How do you
24 understand this?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand it this way: Imer is
1 the name, Istref is the name of his father, and Krasniqi is the name of
2 the surname.
3 JUDGE ORIE: And now when reading this line, do you understand
4 that the son only was taken for an interview or that the son together with
5 the father or the father alone was taken for an interview?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Only the son, Imer; Istref is the
7 father. So Imer (Istref) Krasniqi, and this is just one person.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
9 MR. KEARNEY:
10 Q. In any event, Witness 17, Sadri Selca was not working as your
11 brigade security officer on 12 July 1998; is that correct?
12 A. Very correct.
13 Q. Now, before that date of 12 July, had you ever even been to the
14 Baran Valley before?
15 A. Never.
16 Q. Without telling us where, without telling us your village or your
17 municipality, you grew up in a completely separate part of Kosovo; is that
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Before that day, 12 July, have you ever been to Vranoc, Luka, or
21 Prapaqan before?
22 A. No, never.
23 Q. Before your arrival to the Baran Valley in early July of 1998, had
24 you ever met Mete Krasniqi before?
25 A. Never.
1 Q. Din Krasniqi?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Avni Krasniqi?
4 A. Him neither.
5 Q. Did you know at that time that Avni, when you first arrived in the
6 Baran Valley, that Avni was the brother of Mete Krasniqi?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. And you've already told us that all three of the accused were
9 people that, before late June of 1998 when you arrived in Kosovo, you
10 didn't know them either. Is that a fair statement?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, yesterday - this is at transcript page 7708, Your Honour,
13 lines 9 through 12 - Mr. Emmerson tried to suggest to you that your
14 testimony about parallel structures was an attempt by you to deflect
15 criticism for failing to control officers under your command.
16 I want to ask you: Was there a parallel structure in the Baran
17 Valley separate from your brigade?
18 A. As far as the military police is concerned, yes.
19 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, at this time I'd like to draw or pull
20 up annex 13, this is proposed Prosecution Exhibit 892. I'd like to show
21 the witness, if we may, the first page of this exhibit which is
22 ERN U0015988. And of course it is page 1 in the English as well.
23 Q. Witness 17, you were asked at length yesterday about whether
24 Din Krasniqi had direct contact with Ramush Haradinaj after your arrival
25 to the Baran Valley. Now, I'd like you to look at this document. This is
1 a document on -- dated Vranoc, 29 July 1998, a working meeting of the
2 Baran Valley staff. The first paraphrase reference to an individual
3 talking in that meeting is to an individual named Doktori. I want to ask
4 you if, based on your own knowledge of pseudonyms and personalities in the
5 Baran Valley in July of 1998, you know who Doktori is?
6 A. Doktori was Din Krasniqi.
7 Q. Now, this is almost -- this meeting was almost three weeks after
8 you assumed command of the Baran Valley. Is that a fair statement?
9 A. Yes. If you consider the 12th, it is roughly three weeks after.
10 Q. Were you invited to this meeting, Witness 17?
11 A. No, I wasn't. I did not attend this meeting.
12 Q. Now, the title of this document refers to the Baran Valley staff.
13 At this time, 29 July 1998, did you even know that there was a
14 Baran Valley staff?
15 A. I said that when we arrived on the 12th of July there was an
16 existing staff. Din was the leader in Baran, and with our arrival it
17 meant that all the villages should become part of the brigade, should
18 become one. But Din continued to practice like in the past. He called on
19 the local commanders at least once a week to have meetings with them. So
20 I could say that there was always a sort of parallelism going on.
21 Q. I'd like you to, if we may, look at and scroll down at the same
22 time, look at pages 2, 3, and 4. There are references to several village
23 representatives talking at this meeting, and I'm just going to read
24 through them Raushiq, Vranoc, Turjake, Qallapek, going now to page 3
25 Kosuriq, Ljuga, page 4, Nepolje, Loxha, Gradac, Zllopak, Doberdol.
1 Were those villages that within your own AOR, Witness 17?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. KEARNEY: And with permission, I'd like to go back if I may,
4 Your Honour, to page 1 of this document.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
6 MR. KEARNEY:
7 Q. I'd like to direct your attention, Witness 17, to the first few
8 paragraphs of page 1 where there are -- there's a statement by the -- by
9 Din Krasniqi being made and then by the Baran Valley chief. I'm going to
10 refer you specifically to the comments about combat morale that Doktori
11 makes in the first sentence, expected areas of enemy attack he makes in
12 the second sentence. And then under the heading "Baran Valley chief," the
13 discussion of weapons in the first sentence and the discussion of
14 readiness in the second sentence. I would like to ask you, are those
15 issues that were relevant to you as the brigade commander in that AOR?
16 A. These were in the interests of the brigade and the village
17 commands informed us every evening in the brigade about what was going on,
18 while Din summoned them once a week. But this was done without my
19 knowledge, without my authorisation.
20 Q. Now, beyond the -- this direct contact that Din Krasniqi was
21 having with Mr. Haradinaj, did Din Krasniqi, to your knowledge, also have
22 direct contact with either Idriz Balaj or Faton Mehmetaj?
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
24 MR. EMMERSON: I just want to be absolutely clear. If Mr. Kearney
25 is seeking to rely on this document as being the basis for the suggestion
1 that there was ongoing direct contact, then plainly it is a document that
2 shows attendance attendant a single meeting and the witness has already
3 testified to the source of his knowledge so --
4 JUDGE ORIE: I'm aware, but there is nothing in the question that
5 suggests that it was an ongoing contact.
6 MR. EMMERSON: There was --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see. Now, beyond this direct contact was
8 having --
9 MR. EMMERSON: "Was having," that's my concern.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Was having -- had, if you make that had, and explore
11 if there was anything more than this meeting.
12 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you, Your Honour. And I believe the witness
13 gave evidence about the other sources of his information about these
14 contacts yesterday. I want to pursue it further.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Although it does not -- to say that the
16 evidence there would be very much supportive of ongoing contacts would be
17 an overstatement. He gave evidence on that. It's clearly in my mind.
18 And now you're putting to him the record of what seems to be one meeting
19 where both were present. Please proceed.
20 MR. KEARNEY: Thank you.
21 Q. Witness 17, beyond this direct contact that Din Krasniqi had with
22 Mr. Haradinaj, did Din Krasniqi to your knowledge also have direct contact
23 after your arrival in the Baran Valley with Idriz Balaj and Faton
25 A. I have no knowledge about this.
1 Q. In paragraph 59 of your witness statement --
2 MR. KEARNEY: Can we bring that up, please, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could that be brought on the screen.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I question only at this point whether or not
5 Mr. Kearney seeks to impeach his own witness or is going to attempt to
6 obtain a clarification.
7 JUDGE ORIE: We'll see what his question is and then we'll most
8 likely find out.
9 MR. KEARNEY:
10 Q. Witness 17, I'd like to direct your attention to, I believe, the
11 fourth full sentence in paragraph 59 --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Isn't it -- wasn't that a line on which you agreed
13 that it should be --
14 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, exactly so.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Because I've got it on my notes here that the line
16 starting with: "I believe" and ending with "Faton Mehmetaj" was a line to
17 be --
18 MR. EMMERSON: To be redacted.
19 JUDGE ORIE: -- To be redacted. So therefore that's out so
20 therefore it's no use to take the witness to that statement because it's
21 not in his statement anymore.
22 MR. KEARNEY: My understanding of the Court's ruling that I was
23 allowed to seek any foundation for this statement.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I think I -- if you -- you've asked the witness
25 whether -- you asked the witness as a matter of fact just a second ago
1 whether he had any direct contact; the answer was no. So as a matter of
2 fact -- I don't know what you would like to further explore --
3 MR. KEARNEY: I can rephrase the question, Your Honour, in a
4 different manner.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so. And let's take the 92 ter
6 statement from the screen at this moment.
7 MR. KEARNEY:
8 Q. Witness 17, you told us yesterday that you received information
9 from a village commander that Din Krasniqi and Ramush Haradinaj had
10 contact with each other after your arrival in the Baran Valley. I want to
11 ask you if you received any similar information regarding Din Krasniqi
12 having contact with either Idriz Balaj or Faton Mehmetaj.
13 A. The contact between Din Krasniqi and Ramush and the information by
14 the village commanders may bear fruit because he was in that meeting that
15 we mentioned. And during the meetings that we held in the evening, he
16 reported about these contacts. As for Idriz Balaj and Faton Mehmetaj, I
17 don't remember the source of the information.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Of what information exactly, Witness 17?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean the contact itself, whether
20 they did have contacts or not.
21 JUDGE ORIE: You -- earlier a question was put to you: "Did
22 Din Krasniqi to your knowledge also have direct contact after your arrival
23 in the Baran Valley with Idriz Balaj and Faton Mehmetaj?"
24 Your answer was: "I have no knowledge about this."
25 Now it seems that you are now telling something quite different
1 from that. Did you have knowledge or did you have no knowledge.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I'm saying is that as to where
3 this information that there were contacts between them came from, I don't
5 JUDGE ORIE: It never reached you; do I understand you correctly.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will say it again I don't
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, please proceed. I'm looking at the
9 clock. I know that we are already a couple minutes over time.
10 Mr. Kearney, is it possible to finish in, let's say, the next ten minutes.
11 Then I could ask the cooperation of the interpreters, transcriber,
12 technicians -- let me just ...
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE ORIE: What need would there be to put further questions to
15 the witness?
16 MR. EMMERSON: As matters stand, none.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: At the present time, there would be no questions.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
20 MR. HARVEY: So far so good.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, could you finish in the next ten minutes
22 and then a message will be sent to the Chamber who will sit in Courtroom I
23 that we had a late finish. Is that a possibility?
24 MR. KEARNEY: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
1 MR. KEARNEY:
2 Q. Witness 17, I want to talk to you about Mete Krasniqi for a
3 moment. I'd like to be clear. Do you know where Mete Krasniqi's office
4 was in Baran in July of 1998?
5 A. He was not within the scope of the school-yard or the brigade;
6 barracks outside.
7 Q. Do you even know, sir, if he had an office?
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's cut matters short here.
9 The question was not where he did not have an office; the question
10 was where he had an office. Could you tell us? Do you know?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When Cufe Krasniqi was sent there, I
12 noticed that the office was in Baran, but outside the scope of the
14 JUDGE ORIE: At what distance, approximately, from where the
15 brigade was?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was very near.
17 JUDGE ORIE: How near? I mean "very near" could be 20 metres, a
18 hundred metres, 300 metres. Could you give us a better indication.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Between 20 to 50 metres one would
21 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
22 MR. KEARNEY:
23 Q. It was suggested both yesterday and today, Witness 17, that on
24 some level you and Mete Krasniqi cooperated with each other or worked
25 together in investigations. Did he try at some point to join your
1 military police unit?
2 A. Yes. He wanted to become a member, but I did not put him on the
3 list of military police members; because of this, I was threatened. He
4 came to my office and threatened me in person.
5 Q. When you refused to put him on the list for your own military
6 police office or officers' unit, how did he threaten you? What did he say
7 to you?
8 A. He came in the facilities of the brigade, he wanted to come to the
9 office. I told the guard to give him permission to come to my office. It
10 was only the two of us in my office, and he said to me the following,
11 Because of not making me a member of the military police, in case I commit
12 an act of betrayal --
13 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not hear the last part
14 of the sentence.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please repeat the last part of your
16 sentence on from where you said: "In case I commit an act of
17 betrayal ..." And then what followed. The interpreters couldn't catch
18 your words.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He said, If I commit an act of
20 betrayal I will commit that against you and I will liquidate you.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour, if I might --
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- Quickly interject. I don't know whether the
24 Chamber is aware of the fact -- and I'm objecting on the grounds of
25 hearsay because this gentleman is dead, the author of the statement is
1 dead and I don't know whether or not --
2 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber is aware of that.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Very well. It causes a certain number of problems
4 in terms of --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, problems to verify statements given by persons
6 who do not live anymore are well-known to the Chamber.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Kearney.
8 MR. KEARNEY:
9 Q. You were asked at great length about the Sanije Balaj. Did you
10 hold Mete Krasniqi responsible in your mind for that disappearance?
11 A. Yes, I said earlier that I met him at the police station in
12 Qallapek. I took him by his arm. I asked him whispering in the ear,
13 Where is Sanije. And he said I handed her over to two persons. And I
14 replied, The first person to be held responsible for this will be you
15 because you were the one who first stopped her. And this was the reason
16 why he threatened me together with him not becoming part of the military
17 police list.
18 Q. Did you initiate an investigation into the Sanije Balaj
19 disappearance, Witness 17?
20 A. Yes. From what I had heard and from my question that I put to
21 Mete, I ordered Sadri to start an investigation into the matter, but with
22 the formation of the Joint Command in Prapaqan, within the framework of
23 the Joint Command, a certain process, investigative process, into the case
24 of Sanije Balaj began and it was carried out by two persons, one called
25 Gashi and the second Tigri. These two persons initiated the investigation
1 in the case of Sanije Balaj. Now I've remembered Gashi's first name Hysen
2 Gashi and Commander Tigri.
3 Q. I want to direct your attention to the 20th of August meeting in
4 Prapaqan with the 68 village commanders. You were questioned about the
5 statements of the author, the journalist, who we talked about earlier and
6 his statement in that meeting about the fish in Lake Radonjic getting fat
7 on human flesh. And you brought up the fact that -- or it was brought up
8 to you that Din Krasniqi raised perhaps some complaints during that
9 meeting. I want to ask you specifically: When the comment about the fish
10 getting fat at Lake Radoniq was made, did Din Krasniqi say anything in
11 response to that comment that you heard?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
13 MR. EMMERSON: Briefly before the witness answers, that question
14 was put to the witness twice in terms --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Also by the Bench.
16 MR. EMMERSON: On both occasions he said he could not remember.
17 JUDGE ORIE: The question has been put by the Bench to the
18 witness, Mr. Kearney, do you remember?
19 MR. KEARNEY: Yes, I do. And I would like to ask another related
20 question in this regard.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
22 MR. KEARNEY:
23 Q. Witness 17, when that statement was made about the fish, what was
24 the reaction that you saw in the room from the 68 village commanders who
25 were present?
1 A. I can't remember that there were a reaction, neither from Din
2 or -- nor from anybody else. But when you speak of such things, these are
3 very grave matters. It was a shuddering thing to say, but I didn't see
4 any comments or any reactions. I mentioned it earlier, that this was a
5 questionable issue and to discuss it in an open forum was very difficult
6 and it was not very logical.
7 Q. You were asked also on cross-examination about the 21 August
8 meeting that you had with Tahir Zemaj and Ramush Haradinaj in Prapaqan,
9 and you were asked if you had given any specifics to Mr. Haradinaj about
10 misconduct of any of his soldiers. And I believe you said you gave no
11 specifics. I want to ask you simply: During that meeting did you inform
12 Mr. Haradinaj --
13 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, I object to the form of the question
14 before it even finishes. It's plainly a leading question.
15 MR. KEARNEY: Your Honour, this is foundational, it's my last
16 question, I'm doing that to save time, the witness --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please put the question.
18 MR. KEARNEY:
19 Q. Did you inform Mr. Haradinaj during that meeting of the
20 assassination plot that was outstanding against Tahir Zemaj?
21 A. This was done by Tahir directly because we had information and
22 notes that a plot was being prepared.
23 Q. And the information you had in that regard referred to Faton
24 Mehmetaj; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, that's correct.
1 Q. And can you tell us what Faton Mehmetaj's relationship was with
2 Mr. Haradinaj?
3 A. In the beginning it was said that he was in charge of the military
4 police in the Gllogjan staff, and then after the Joint Command was
5 established in the Dukagjini Plain he was political representative of the
6 Dukagjini Plain.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kearney, you told us that you would finish in ten
8 minutes. Far more minutes have elapsed since then. Therefore, if there
9 would be one single question, I'll allow you to put it to the witness, but
10 otherwise we'll finish.
11 MR. KEARNEY:
12 Q. During that meeting when you brought this assassination plot up to
13 Mr. Haradinaj's attention and you brought the general allegations about
14 Toger as well, what did he tell you in response to those two items?
15 JUDGE ORIE: I understand "you" to be in the plural here rather
16 than single.
17 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I'm concerned of what about --
18 JUDGE ORIE: We have -- we have to come to a conclusion --
19 MR. KEARNEY: This is my last question, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 How did Mr. Haradinaj respond to what Tahir Zemaj told him about
22 the assassination plot?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Even when I related to him about
24 Idriz Balaj's incident in Luka, even in this case as well he said, I will
25 look into the situation and these things won't happen. This was some kind
1 of a promise that he made that these things would not happen.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 Mr. Kearney, then unfortunately I have to tell you that this
4 concludes the re-examination.
5 MR. KEARNEY: Thanks.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any further need on the basis of --
7 MR. EMMERSON: I would like to ask just one question.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Really one question.
9 MR. EMMERSON: Really one question.
10 Further cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
11 Q. Was that promise then the reason why the following day Tahir Zemaj
12 agreed to incorporate Faton Mehmetaj's part of his command?
13 A. It was Ramush's proposal and there was an agreement between the
14 two; I mentioned it earlier.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know whether this assassination plot had got
16 something to do with Tahir Zemaj agreeing to that proposal?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I couldn't know.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
19 I'm looking to you, Mr. Guy-Smith, I'm looking to you, Mr.
20 Harvey. I don't see any response, which I take it for that you have no
21 further questions for the witness.
22 Then, Witness 17, this concludes your testimony in this court.
23 I'd like to thank you very much for coming. Please -- perhaps you stay
24 where you are at this moment due to the face distortion so that we don't
25 have to pull the curtains down at this very moment.
1 We have no time to deal with the exhibits at this moment. The
2 Chamber would like to hear about exhibits -- attachment 17 to the 92 ter
3 statement. We'll deal with the exhibits later. We do understand that
4 there are no objections against the other attachments.
5 Then there is an issue about the next witness from what I
6 understand. Since we could not start or even finish the examination of
7 the present witness today, tomorrow we would have only one hour and a
8 half. We have to deal with protective measures, some
9 examination-in-chief, the Chamber also in view of what rescheduling is
10 required to have that witness tomorrow has decided although we usually try
11 to get witnesses sent home before the weekend that it would be a fruitless
12 effort in this case. And since VWS has informed us that the witness could
13 stay over the weekend - which doesn't say that that's the witness who will
14 testify immediately after the weekend, because I do understand that the
15 witness coming next might be limited in -- as far as his availability is
16 concerned. We'll deal with all that perhaps tomorrow, further exchange of
17 views on how to proceed at the beginning of next week, also to resolve
18 whatever disclosure issues are still outstanding. And we adjourn until
19 the 3rd of April -- 3rd of September, quarter past 2.00, in this same
21 And I'd like to thank you for having come to The Hague to have
22 answered all the questions of the parties and of the Bench. I wish
23 everyone a good weekend.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.07 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day of
2 September, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.