1 Tuesday, 4 September 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
7 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor
8 versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Before I invite Madam Registrar [sic] to escort the witness into
11 the courtroom for which, by the way, I think the curtains have to be
12 pulled down, I would first give the reasons for the protective measures
13 the Chamber granted in respect of Witness 3.
14 On the 31st of August 2007, the Prosecution applied for the
15 trial-related protective measures of pseudonym and face and voice
16 distortion for Witness 3. The Chamber has been informed that the Defence
17 does not oppose the motion. The Chamber has set out the standard for
18 granting protective measures in numerous decisions and therefore sees no
19 need to repeat them again. The witness has expressed fear for his safety
20 and that of his family should it become publicly known that he gave
21 evidence for the Prosecution. The Chamber notes that close family members
22 of Witness 3 live in Kosovo. Given the nature of the witness's
23 anticipated testimony, the Chamber is satisfied that it may antagonise
24 persons who reside in their community.
25 The Chamber finds that the requirements for granting protective
1 measures have been met and therefore grants the Prosecution's motion.
2 And this concludes the Chamber's reasons for the decision on
3 protective measures for Witness 3.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness 3. Please be seated.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 3, I'd like to remind you that the solemn
8 declaration you gave at the beginning of your testimony still binds you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
12 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/3 [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio: [Continued]
11 Pages 7902-7906 redacted.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 7908-7969 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 JUDGE ORIE: I see on my screen that we returned into open
8 session. Mr. Registrar, if that is confirmed, yes, we are in open
10 MR. EMMERSON: Just before Mr. Di Fazio addresses you, I'm not
11 sure what the issue is.
12 JUDGE ORIE: I understood that there was an issue about apart from
13 the core of the testimony of the witness, that there would be some
14 reputation evidence or something like that to be elicited from the
16 MR. EMMERSON: May we discuss this? Because no notice has been
17 given to me of what it is that may be an issue between this witness and
18 any other party. Perhaps we could use the break to discuss Mr. Di Fazio's
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if Mr. Di Fazio uses one or two lines to explain
21 to us what the issue is, and then we will give an opportunity to --
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think it's --
23 MR. DI FAZIO: It doesn't concern anyone except --
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: It concerns my clients, it's very clear, Mr. Di
25 Fazio indicated that he intends to lead reputation evidence with regard to
1 my client.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And what type do you have in mind?
3 MR. DI FAZIO: It's in paragraphs 50, 51, 52.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a look at that. That's what you want
5 to elicit from this witness. Let me just check whether I --
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I don't know if you wish to -- for me to at
7 least to begin to address this because that needs to be considered in
8 light of the fact that as Mr. Di Fazio knows, that when the witness number
9 3 was shown a photo spread and asked whether or not he could identify any
10 individual in photo lineup number 4, which my client was in photograph
11 position number 6, the witness said, and I quote, "I don't know any one of
12 the persons shown on the lineup."
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: So we start with that being the context in which
15 Mr. Di Fazio intends on introducing reputation evidence with regard to my
16 client, of which I have a fair amount to say.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. They read it. The reference to the paragraphs
18 are references to the 2007 statement, Mr. Di Fazio.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right, the recent statement.
20 JUDGE ORIE: The recent statement.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: And the reference that I made is paragraph number
22 73 which is ERN number U 0086978 and the photo line up was shown at
23 U 0086985. That was shown to Mr. Haverinen back in 2004.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: I haven't led any evidence of this.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Again could I press for sometime to consider this
1 over the adjournment because those paragraphs contain all sorts of
2 information which, when looked at in conjunction with other paragraphs,
3 proves to have been put in a rather different framework from the which in
4 which the witness is able to support it, and it cuts across material
5 beyond the reputation of Mr. Balaj. So perhaps we might just have a
6 sensible opportunity to discuss what it is Mr. Di Fazio is proposing to --
7 JUDGE ORIE: This Chamber -- reputation evidence is not the kind
8 of evidence that assists the Chamber most, to say it politely. We will
9 consider during the break looking at these paragraphs, keeping in mind of
10 what you said, whether we will grant any additional time for Mr. Di Fazio
11 to elicit this evidence.
12 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour totally separate matter since I think we
13 are finished with that one for the moment. May I very respectfully draw
14 your attention to your own words at line -- page 68, line 24 when you put
15 to the witness your understandable surprise, perhaps, that he seems to
16 keep rushing back to Jabllanice despite all the perils that allegedly
17 await him there, you put this to him: "You escaped from Jabllanice
18 prison." I do know that the Bench, the Tribunal, fully understands that it
19 is not accepted on behalf of any of the defendants that there ever was a
20 prison at Jabllanice.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I do agree with you from -- he said he was arrested
22 and at least he explained -- I'll not use that word again. To what extent
23 the place where someone is detained and ill treated, whether you would
24 call that a prison or detention place, or deaths are caused, you pay
25 specific attention to the word "prison."
1 I appreciate that you do it and why you do it, and when I used
2 this word, this was not in anticipation of any finding on the presence of
3 a prison, and I will of course, if I would put that question again to the
4 same witness, I would use a different phrase.
5 MR. HARVEY: I felt confident that was the case, thank you, Your
7 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn until five minutes past 6.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.45 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 6.12 p.m.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, before we -- would you like to address
11 the repetition evidence?
12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. If -- unless the Trial Chamber has reached a
13 provisional view in favour of --
14 JUDGE ORIE: We have reached a provisional view in favour of the
16 MR. EMMERSON: In that case I will address you if I need to, if
17 Mr. Di Fazio seeks to persuade you to take the contrary --
18 JUDGE ORIE: That is, that the evidence which the Chamber could
19 expect that would be elicited in relation to the witness statement,
20 paragraph 50, 51, and 52, that the Chamber has read it, has seen that it's
21 mainly unsubstantiated hearsay evidence, not to say that there are a few
22 facts here and there, but in order to elicit this in a way which would be
23 acceptable for the Chamber would take quite some time. And also in view
24 of the non-contradicted observations by Mr. Guy-Smith, as far as photo
25 spreads and the appearance of the accused on this photo spread and the
1 witness not recognising any of these persons, the Chamber in view of all
2 this would expect that it takes so much time that it's not granting that
3 additional time to the Defence.
4 So the Chamber is not saying that under no circumstances what is
5 said here, which is hearsay, that it's impossible to substantiate it, but
6 for the very practical reasons, also in view of the time schedule of the
7 witness, also in view of the estimate given by the Prosecution, how much
8 time they would need, taken all together, the Chamber does not grant any
9 additional time to the Prosecution to elicit such evidence.
10 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if I could just make a request for two
11 minutes before the end of today's session just to address briefly the
12 question of the outstanding motion in connection with an additional
13 videolink, at the end of the day.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Two minutes because yesterday we learned that it
15 would be written submissions, but if it's limited to two minutes, then any
16 of the other counsel needs one or two minutes as well?
17 MR. HARVEY: Yes, Your Honour. I was just putting the finishing
18 touches to a written motion but --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you file that, then first thing tomorrow
20 morning, but if you say, "I can explain that in two minutes as well," then
21 it's fine. If not, we would rather not lose further time with this
22 witness in court.
23 MR. HARVEY: I have a reputation for being economical.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, the Chamber is fully aware and appreciates that.
25 Could the witness be brought into the courtroom again.
1 Mr. Emmerson is it you who is first going to cross-examine the witness or
2 Mr. Harvey?
3 MR. EMMERSON: Mr. Troop for Mr. Harvey.
4 MR. HARVEY: Mr. Troop will deal with this witness.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
6 [The witness entered court]
7 JUDGE ORIE: We return into private session.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 7976-7996 redacted. Private session.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 5th day of
7 September, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.