1 Thursday, 6 September 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor
9 versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 It is not for the first time that I failed to go into open session
12 when we adjourned yesterday, and of course I should have done that because
13 the public should know when the hearing of this case continues.
14 Therefore, we start now in open session. I have put this on the record,
15 but we'll immediately return into closed session to continue examination
16 of Witness 55 on protective measures.
17 [Closed session]
11 Pages 8073-8120 redacted. Closed session.
13 [Open session]
14 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
16 Witness 55, we'll now proceed. Mr. Re will examine you.
17 Mr. Re, you may proceed.
18 MR. RE: Thank you.
19 Examination by Mr. Re: [Continued]
20 Q. Witness 55, I'm going to ask you some questions about yourself.
21 I'm not going to ask you publicly what your name is. I'm going to show
22 you a sheet which is a pseudonym sheet, which is 65 ter Exhibit 1967.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And that would be, Mr. Registrar?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Number P --
25 MR. RE:
1 Q. Can you please just look at this sheet of paper that we are going
2 to show to you?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours that would be number P519.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. Can confirm the details there of your name, your date of birth,
7 and your place of birth are correct?
8 A. Yes, they are.
9 Q. Witness 55, were you a member of the KLA in 1998?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. When and how did you join the KLA?
12 A. When I returned from Albania, I don't want to mention names or
13 even towns, unless you want me to, with the other students that I
14 mentioned. I joined them, and other members of the village that I
15 mentioned, and we travelled to Kosovo.
16 Q. Students from where?
17 A. From Kosovo.
18 Q. All right. How did you come to join the KLA? How did you find
19 out about the KLA?
20 A. After the war broke out, you know that case of Ademi Jashari, much
21 was said everywhere about that, in Tirana, among students. People spoke
22 about what was happening. And being an adolescent at that time, I wanted
23 to make my contribution. That's why I joined them.
24 Q. Were you then studying in Tirana?
25 A. As I said earlier, it is considered part of studies. They were
1 considered pre-university studies.
2 Q. If I could approach it this way, just forget in one sense what you
3 said earlier, and you might have to repeat yourself a little bit for the
4 purposes of the questions here. You follow what I'm saying?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Okay. How old were you then?
7 A. I was an adolescent, 19, 20, 21.
8 Q. And where did you go with these students from Tirana?
9 A. To Prifq.
10 Q. Where is that?
11 A. In Tropoja.
12 Q. Is that in Albania near the border with Kosovo?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Why did you go there? What was there?
15 A. There was a kind of staff there where you were supplied with
16 weapons and clothes.
17 Q. Was that a KLA staff?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. When in 1998 was that?
20 A. Either January or February.
21 Q. Did you do any training there; that is military training.
22 A. No, no.
23 Q. How long were you in Prifq for?
24 A. I was there for one or one day and a half. I'm not sure. People
25 were spread out in the meadow, divided on the basis of villages. And they
1 were waiting to get weapons and military uniforms.
2 Q. How many people were there?
3 A. Oh, there were many, 800, 900, maybe 1.000, maybe even more than
4 that. As I said, they were spread out in the meadow, in the surrounding
5 villages, in different houses. So I can't give you an accurate number.
6 Q. You said they were there waiting to get weapons and military
7 uniforms. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what that involved? What they
8 were doing there?
9 A. Yes. They were waiting.
10 Q. Why were they waiting?
11 A. To get weapons and uniforms.
12 Q. Was that for the KLA?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Where were the weapons and uniforms coming from?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Did weapons and uniforms arrive?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber about their arrival, what you saw about
19 their arrival.
20 A. We weren't paying any attention to that. I was with a group of
21 Brovina village. Some trucks came there and they unloaded them. How many
22 of them there were, I can't say. I just know that they came.
23 Q. How many people were there in the group from Brovina village?
24 A. To tell you the truth, there were people not only from Brovina but
25 from the district of Morina Pomaseq [phoen] and other surrounding
1 villages. Altogether, 20 or 30 persons, if I'm not mistaken.
2 Q. What weapons were unloaded?
3 A. I didn't see what kinds of weapons they were. We only saw what we
4 were given when we were called and handed out weapons. I saw what we were
5 handed out.
6 Q. Who was in command of the KLA there?
7 A. From what I heard and saw with my own eyes, there was a man with a
8 beard. His name -- they called him Gani or Gaqa [phoen]. How accurate
9 that name is, I can't tell you.
10 Q. Who was the commander of the KLA from Brovina village?
11 A. Shall I -- should I mention the name?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that you could mention that name. I
13 don't think that --
14 A. Osman Demaj.
15 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber does not consider this to create a risk
16 for that person.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It may not be a risk for them, but
18 it is a risk for me. What can I say? I feel bad if I mention names
19 because I'm afraid that if they see me tomorrow, or if they see my face on
20 television, they will think, oh, well, this is the person who has
22 JUDGE ORIE: Your face, as -- I don't know whether the witness can
23 see that, your face is not shown on television. Perhaps it could be
24 demonstrated to you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Witness, this explains to you perhaps what can be
2 seen on the screen and what cannot be seen.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But were I to mention the names, the
4 names would be heard on television, weren't they?
5 JUDGE ORIE: The names would be heard but you would not be named,
6 and your face will not be shown and your voice cannot be heard.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay. It was Osman Demaj.
8 JUDGE ORIE: The content of what you say can be heard. Please
9 proceed, Mr. Re.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The commanders were called
11 Osman Demaj and Ilmi Hasani.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. Okay. A moment ago you were telling us that weapons were handed
14 out. Did you receive any weapons?
15 A. Yes. I received a Kalashnikov with 120 bullets.
16 Q. What about a uniform?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Describe the uniform.
19 A. I know that the uniform came from somewhere from abroad, from
20 Germany or Switzerland, I don't know where from, but I know that it came
21 from abroad.
22 Q. Was it a military uniform?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What type?
25 A. I think a German make. It looked like a German make to me.
1 Q. What weapons did you see when they were unloaded?
2 A. I did not see them unloading the weapons from the lorries, but
3 only when they were handed out to us. I'm of the opinion, though, that
4 there was a variety of weapons.
5 Q. Were there any horses there?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. What were the horses doing?
8 A. They were grazing, grazing, ready to be loaded.
9 Q. And were they loaded?
10 A. Yes, after the weapons came, yes.
11 Q. You're saying the weapons were loaded on to the horses?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Where were the horses sent?
14 A. In the direction of Kosovo.
15 Q. Now, did you go with the horses?
16 A. Everybody left together. Some dispersed and went through Gjakove
17 by Boba Bogas [phoen], some others went in the direction of Badesh
18 [phoen], Kosja [phoen], which is the high mountains between Albania and
20 Q. How many horses were there?
21 A. A lot. They were -- for a number of villages. It's not only
22 Brovina but a number of villages, Decan, Junik, the rest of Kosovo. I
23 cannot put a finger on that one because at that stage I was not interested
24 in numbers.
25 Q. Where did you go?
1 A. I joined the members of the Reka e Keqe group joining the
2 commanders of the village alongside a number of people.
3 Q. How many people were in that group approximately?
4 A. Others kept joining up, so up in the mountains the number grew. I
5 may be exaggerating, but I think it was about 8.000 to 9.000 people, maybe
6 I'm exaggerating a lot here but that would be my estimate.
7 Q. Okay. Where did you go to? You said you were in --
8 A. To Junik.
9 Q. You went to Junik from Prifq. How did you get there?
10 A. Yes, on foot.
11 Q. How long did that take?
12 A. We left in the afternoon and arrived at Junik on the following day
13 in the morning.
14 Q. Did you travel over night?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were the people who were travelling with you likewise armed with
17 Kalashnikovs and wearing uniforms?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Where did you go to in Junik?
20 A. We arrived at the KLA base at Junik.
21 Q. Where was that?
22 A. In the centre of Junik. I cannot recall exactly where it was.
23 Q. What happened when you got there?
24 A. I was told, given that I was only going there to render my
25 assistance, for -- i.e. to help the injured, I was told to make contact
1 with the doctor, and that's where I was taken to.
2 Q. Were there any KLA people there when you got to Junik?
3 A. A lot, many.
4 Q. Who were the commanders?
5 A. Lum Haxhia, Naim Maloku, as far as I know.
6 Q. Did you see them?
7 A. Yes, but not at a close distance.
8 Q. Describe what you saw when you saw them?
9 A. How should I describe it? I was probably 60, 70, 100, 150 metres
10 away, there were so many people there.
11 Q. What did the KLA commanders do when you arrived?
12 A. From what I could tell, they were delighted that we had people,
13 new people coming, armaments.
14 Q. Were there any speeches?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is that what you're referring to when you said they were
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, Ilmi Hasani who you referred to before, did he travel with
20 your group from --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- Prifq to Junik?
23 A. Yes. However, he left. He broke away before we reached Junik.
24 As far as I know, Ilmi did never reach Junik, but he headed towards his
25 own village.
1 Q. You said you were told to make contact with the doctor. What did
2 you do?
3 A. Yes. Yes. I contacted the doctor, who told me that I had to look
4 after the wounded. He had a bag of a good quality which he gave to me.
5 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber the doctor's name? Or is that
6 something you have a difficulty with saying in open session?
7 A. No. It's difficult, and to be frank with you, I'm not sure
8 whether the name that I've mentioned is the exact name that he had. I'm
9 not certain.
10 JUDGE ORIE: We turn into private session for a second.
11 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are now back in open session.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Please proceed, Mr. Re.
8 MR. RE:
9 Q. A few moments ago you said you contacted the doctor. Where was
10 the doctor?
11 A. At Junik.
12 Q. Whereabouts?
13 A. At a house, two storeyed house. The second storey had been
14 damaged. The roof had fallen in, whilst the ground floor had been turned
15 into some sort of a medical facility, some sort of a hospital.
16 Q. Was the doctor there by himself or were there others there with
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think there was a problem perhaps with the
19 translation. Do you now hear me? Or do you still do not hear me?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do hear you now.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Would you please repeat the question, Mr. Re?
22 MR. RE:
23 Q. Was the doctor there by himself when you went to see him -- see
24 him or were there others there with him?
25 A. There were some wounded people.
1 Q. Did you from then on work with the doctor?
2 A. Yes. However, in the majority of cases, I was alone.
3 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber what you did in that house in Junik with
4 the doctor when you said wounded people were coming?
5 A. I didn't stay there long. I -- there were occasions when I spent
6 the night there, and then I went out into the field. In fact, I was
7 walking on foot where I received calls about people being injured, be they
8 soldiers or civilians. So I was not stationed at some certain place, as
9 it were.
10 Q. How did you know where to go? What system was in operation?
11 A. He had radio contact, and I think that the information came to him
12 via radio link or some messenger. I don't know exactly.
13 Q. What did you do when he received information by radio?
14 A. He sent for me and told me that there were wounded people at a
15 certain place, and then I went to that particular location.
16 Q. What equipment did you have?
17 A. There was a bag weighing 25 to 30 kilograms and it contained
18 cotton, gauzes, alcohol, oxygenated water, antibiotics, Penicillin and
19 Streptomycin, Albomycin as well as syringes.
20 Q. How did you travel about?
21 A. On foot. Sometimes I had the facility of a tractor but in the
22 majority of cases on foot.
23 Q. Were you always working alone in the field?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. How did you carry the 25 to 30 kilograms?
1 A. On my back.
2 Q. What places did you go to to treat wounded people?
3 A. The entire district of the Reka e Keqe up to Jasiq.
4 Q. Give the Trial Chamber some estimation of how many wounded people
5 you treated in 1998?
6 A. It's difficult. A large number.
7 Q. Where were you staying or sleeping?
8 A. When I was tired, I only used to find a location somewhere and lie
9 down, wherever that was, on a mountain, in a meadow.
10 Q. Did you see any fighting or combat in your field trips to treat
11 the wounded?
12 A. Yes. However, I was trying to evade the fighting.
13 Q. What sort of treatment were you able to give people on the spot in
14 the field?
15 A. First aid only.
16 Q. What did you do if people had serious injuries?
17 A. I told whoever was with that person to take him to Junik.
18 Q. To the doctor's facility in Junik or somewhere else?
19 A. Yes, and from what I know, and I think people from there onwards
20 were taken to Tropoja. I think that's what happened.
21 Q. That's Tropoja in Albania?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. How did they get there?
24 A. On tractors, horses, walking up the mountains. I'm not sure.
25 Q. What were the wounded wearing when they were taken to Tropoja?
1 A. Civilian clothing, I think. In fact, there were a number of
2 occasions I noticed them wearing civilian clothing.
3 Q. Why were they in civilian clothing?
4 A. For safety reasons, because they used to be joined up to groups of
5 women, children, the elderly, those who were making it on the border and
6 then crossing into Albania.
7 Q. What sort of wounds did you treat?
8 A. Firearms wounds, wound from shelling, all kinds of
9 weapons-inflicted wounds.
10 Q. When did you stop doing that? That is treating wounded soldiers
11 in the field?
12 A. You mean overall?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. In August.
15 Q. 1998?
16 A. Yes, yes.
17 Q. Did you know of an organisation called the FARK?
18 A. Yes, I heard about them.
19 Q. When did they arrive in Kosovo?
20 A. I think towards February or March, April. I don't know.
21 Q. Did you know who Ramush Haradinaj was in 1998?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
23 MR. RE: Your Honour?
24 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber for very practical reasons would like to
25 have an early break. It seems that you are now moving to a different
1 subject. So therefore the Chamber would therefore prefer to have the
2 break at this moment rather than at a later stage, and to interrupt the
3 flow of evidence. We'll have a break, Witness 55, for approximately 20
4 minutes, until quarter to 6.00.
5 --- Recess taken at 5.23 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 5.47 p.m.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, please proceed. But before you do that, I am
8 informed the parties that the Chamber was briefed on some practical
9 circumstances for the witness and since the Chamber is aware that we are
10 not sitting tomorrow, and since at the beginning of next week videolinks
11 have been scheduled, that the Chamber, on the basis of this information,
12 has decided that we would -- that the examination of the witness would
13 stop not one second later than a quarter to 7.00. We'll then have
14 sometime for procedural matters so that the witness can leave and return
15 at a later stage to complete his testimony and to be cross-examined.
16 Mr. Re, please proceed.
17 MR. RE:
18 Q. Witness 55, before the break, I was asking you about whether you
19 knew who Ramush Haradinaj was in 1998. Did you?
20 A. In the beginning, I didn't, but I learned of it later.
21 Q. Did you ever see or meet him in 1998?
22 A. I never met him personally. However, I saw him.
23 Q. When was the first time you saw him?
24 A. I cannot remember.
25 Q. Can you remember where it was you first saw him?
1 A. In one of the villages in the Dukagjin plateau, as far as I
2 remember, villages of Decan.
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter was not able to catch two names
4 of villages.
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. Can you just repeat the names of the two villages you mentioned?
7 A. Jasiq, Irzniq.
8 Q. Who was he, to your understanding, the first time you saw him?
9 A. From what I was told by others, he was a commander in his village
10 of Gllogjan before becoming an officer of the KLA, and I have it from
11 other accounts, other people's accounts.
12 Q. What did they tell you about him being an officer of the KLA?
13 A. Yes. They said, "This is Ramush, KLA commander."
14 Q. And what was he doing when you saw him in those villages?
15 A. I can't recall right now what he was up to. From what I remember,
16 though, he was in the company of some other soldiers, speaking to them.
17 Q. When you saw him, was he in uniform?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Was he wearing anything to indicate that he was in the KLA?
20 A. He was in military uniform.
21 Q. What about KLA patches or badges? Did he have those?
22 A. Oh, yes, yes. I can't recall now right away whether it was KLA or
23 something else written on the badge on his shoulder because I saw it from
24 a distance only.
25 Q. Approximately how many times did you see Ramush Haradinaj in 1998?
1 A. Seven, eight times, maybe more.
2 Q. What about his brother Daut? Do you know who he was or ever see
4 A. Yes. I saw him once or twice or more. They were together with
5 Ramush, and I was told that he is Ramush's brother, also a KLA officer.
6 Q. And where was it you saw them together?
7 A. In the areas I mentioned earlier.
8 Q. Did you ever hear Ramush Haradinaj speak in the seven or eight
9 times that you saw him?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you become familiar with his voice?
12 A. More or less, yes.
13 Q. Did you know who Tahir Zemaj was in 1998?
14 A. I didn't know who he was, but on one occasion, when I was
15 administering some treatment, I was told that he too is a KLA commander, a
16 FARK commander.
17 Q. I'm sorry, did you say a FARK commander or KLA commander?
18 A. FARK.
19 Q. I want you to tell the Trial Chamber about that occasion when you
20 saw Tahir Zemaj. First of all, where were you?
21 A. At Jasiq.
22 Q. And what was in Jasiq? What was Jasiq being used for?
23 A. As far as I know, there was a weapons depot there, or at least
24 that's where munitions from Albania used to be off-loaded, or at least it
25 was a place where they used to take a break.
1 Q. Was that the KLA?
2 A. Yes, as far as I know.
3 Q. In the time when you saw Tahir Zemaj there, which military was
4 controlling Jasiq?
5 A. The KLA.
6 Q. And when was this that you saw Tahir Zemaj?
7 A. I am under a lot of stress at the moment, but it was sometime in
8 the spring.
9 Q. What was the weather like?
10 A. It was a sunny day, hot.
11 Q. Why were you in Jasiq?
12 A. I was treating someone. I can't remember whether he was a
13 civilian or a soldier.
14 Q. Had you gone there from Junik?
15 A. Yes, yes, from the Junik area.
16 Q. How did you know to go to Jasiq?
17 A. Well, I guessed and asked around.
18 Q. How did you get to Jasiq?
19 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if that --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Previous answer should be clarified, Mr. Re. There
21 is a risk of misunderstanding. Perhaps I'll ask the witness. Witness 55,
22 who informed you that there was a reason to go to Jasiq? How did you
23 learn that you had to go there to treat someone?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The doctor told me.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.
1 MR. RE:
2 Q. Did the doctor tell you where to go precisely?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Where did he say to go to?
5 A. He said that on the outskirts of the village, there is a
6 settlement of refugees and some people, and that's where you'll find them.
7 Q. How did you get there?
8 A. If I recall correctly, on foot. I asked around but I knew more or
9 less what direction it lay.
10 Q. You described having a back-pack full of medical supplies before.
11 Did you have that with you?
12 A. Yes, yes, yes.
13 Q. Where did you go in Jasiq? You said you were going to the
14 outskirts. Where -- describe where you went.
15 A. I don't know whether it was on the entrance or on the exit from
16 the village, from Jasiq, but I know that it was an unpaved road and either
17 on the right- or on the left-hand side, there were some horses and some
18 soldiers as well.
19 Q. What were the soldiers doing?
20 A. Resting, resting, from what I can remember.
21 Q. Now, the doctor said you had to go there to treat -- to treat some
22 people. Who were the people you had to treat?
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's an inaccurate -- that's an inaccurate
25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just --
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: An inaccurate question. Line 68, line 2.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, to treat some people. Well.
3 MR. RE: I'm paraphrasing Judge Orie's question and the witness's
4 answer, the two of them, but I can rephrase it if it's inaccurate.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I don't think it's a matter which would cause
6 any harm. Please proceed and reformulate your question.
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. Did -- let's just go back a moment. You said the doctor said you
9 will find them at the outskirts of the village. What was he referring to?
10 A. To the wounded people.
11 Q. And did you find wounded people at the outskirts of the village?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 Q. And where were they in relation to this road, the soldiers, and
14 the horses?
15 A. On the other side of the road.
16 Q. On the road? Or off the road?
17 A. This is a village road, even difficult to tell from the rest of
18 the terrain. It was not asphalted. It was unpaved so there is a little
19 lane in the middle of meadow which enabled the tractor or the occasional
20 car to get through.
21 Q. How many wounded people were there?
22 A. There was only one who was gravely injured.
23 Q. Was it a soldier or civilian?
24 A. He was in civilian clothing, but from what he told me he was a
25 soldier. Maybe he lied.
1 Q. What sort of injuries did he have?
2 A. He had injuries on his chest and on his shoulder.
3 Q. What sort of injuries?
4 A. From the shelling, if I recall correctly.
5 Q. Can you describe the injuries a little bit more?
6 A. He had a big injury on the right arm as well as on the shoulder.
7 I gave him Analgin and started administering the first aid, cleaning the
8 wound, before putting some gauzes on top of it.
9 Q. A moment ago you mentioned shelling. You said from the shelling,
10 if I recall correctly. Was there shelling going on at that time?
11 A. There was shelling in other areas. There was shelling all around.
12 Q. Did you experience shelling yourself on that day? See or hear
13 anything that indicated shelling?
14 A. There was shelling all the time.
15 Q. On that particular day, what can you tell the Trial Chamber about
16 the shelling? Where it was coming from or who was doing it or what you
17 saw or heard?
18 A. It was the Serbian forces who were doing the shelling. However,
19 two days after arriving from Albania and joining the war, I got accustomed
20 to the noise of the shelling. It just made no impression on you at all
21 save on those occasions where you had to seek shelter to escape being hit.
22 Q. And how many soldiers were in the vicinity of this person you were
24 A. I can't say exactly because some were standing, some were lying
25 down, but it could have been 10, 15, 20, maybe some more, maybe some
2 Q. And from what army were these soldiers?
3 A. From what I was able to hear afterwards, they belonged to FARK.
4 Q. What did the soldier you were treating or the person you were
5 treating say to you when you were treating him?
6 A. It is possible that he told me something, but I can't recall
7 exactly. However, I know that he told me that he belonged to FARK.
8 Q. You said this was the occasion when you saw Tahir Zemaj. Tell the
9 Trial Chamber about seeing Tahir Zemaj, and how you knew it was
10 Tahir Zemaj.
11 A. He came on a jeep, which was full. I don't know whether there
12 were four or five or six people inside. He passed by and that's how I was
13 told that he -- that was Tahir Zemaj, FARK, that he's a KLA commander and
14 that was the first time that I saw Tahir Zemaj, and I cannot -- all I
15 remember is that he had a mustache.
16 Q. You said you were told he was Tahir Zemaj. Who told you that?
17 A. The one I was treating.
18 Q. How did the soldiers react when he came?
19 A. They all got on their feet.
20 Q. And?
21 A. And fell in a line, in a straight line.
22 Q. In front of him?
23 A. Yes, the moment he stepped out of the car.
24 Q. How did they greet each other, that is the soldiers and Tahir
1 A. I don't know. I think they saluted with their hands up, but as a
2 matter of fact I was concentrating more on dressing the wound.
3 Q. How close to Tahir Zemaj and the men were you -- I'm sorry, how
4 close were they to you treating this man?
5 A. Perhaps 50, 60, 70 metres. Maybe a shorter distance. I don't
6 know exactly.
7 Q. How close did Tahir Zemaj come to you?
8 A. The road was at a distance of seven, eight, ten metres long.
9 Q. What happened after that, when Tahir Zemaj arrived and the
10 soldiers lined up in front of him?
11 A. I was treating the man when he said, "Look, Ramush is coming."
12 Q. And did you see Ramush?
13 A. I turned my head and I saw him, yes.
14 Q. Who was he with?
15 A. With other soldiers.
16 Q. You mentioned Daut Haradinaj before. Was he there?
17 A. Yes. But I'm not 100 per cent certain.
18 Q. You've described a road. Were they on the road?
19 A. Who?
20 Q. Ramush Haradinaj, the soldiers?
21 A. They came from the other direction.
22 Q. The other direction of Tahir Zemaj? Where did Ramush Haradinaj go
24 A. Yes. He went to the group of soldiers with the horses.
25 Q. What did you see and hear?
1 A. At that particular moment I was treating the wounded soldiers,
2 when I heard some swearing.
3 Q. What was said?
4 A. Fuck your mothers.
5 Q. Who said that?
6 A. As far as I know, and from what I could tell from the voice, it
7 was Ramush but it could have been someone else.
8 Q. How loudly was it spoken?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I said how loudly? Do you mean it was loud or soft?
11 A. Yeah, it was loud enough to attract our attention.
12 Q. What was Ramush Haradinaj doing?
13 A. When I heard the voice, I turned my head and saw him with a pistol
14 in his hands, which he shot.
15 Q. In what direction did he -- where were the other soldiers when he
16 shot with his pistol?
17 A. They all came close together in a tight group, and it was
18 difficult to see.
19 Q. What happened to the soldiers?
20 A. I don't know but one of them fell to the ground.
21 Q. Was that before or after you heard Ramush Haradinaj fire his
23 A. After.
24 Q. How long after?
25 A. At the same time.
1 Q. Where was Ramush Haradinaj pointing his pistol when he fired it?
2 A. There was a distance, as far as I'm concerned, but from the
3 conclusion that I was able to draw, I don't know whether he hit him in the
4 head or just above it, I don't know.
5 Q. How did the other soldiers, the other people there, react to this
6 shooting incident?
7 A. All I know was that there was a lot of panic and people started
8 saying, "Oh, my God, they are killing each other," and I know that
9 Tahir Zemaj, the man with the mustache, who calmed the situation it seems.
10 Q. How did it end?
11 A. Tahir and his soldiers took the man who fell down and put him in
12 the car and they went away.
13 Q. When did Ramush Haradinaj and his men go?
14 A. Three, four or five minutes later, he went.
15 Q. Just go back for one second. You said Tahir -- Tahir and his
16 soldiers took the man who fell down and put him in the car. How did they
17 get him into the car?
18 A. They were holding him. One was holding him by the arms and
19 another one had taken his legs.
20 Q. Was he moving?
21 A. I couldn't see him moving.
22 Q. Do you know why they didn't come to you for medical assistance?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Now, you said Ramush Haradinaj and his men left a few minutes
25 later. Where did they go, and what did they have with them?
1 A. They went back to the direction they came from. They took
2 everything that had been on the horses.
3 Q. What had been on the horses?
4 A. Armaments, from what I know.
5 Q. Who had been tending or looking after the horses before
6 Ramush Haradinaj and his men arrived?
7 A. The soldiers who were there. There were also civilians, people
8 not wearing military uniforms.
9 Q. The soldiers who were there, were they the ones who left with
10 Tahir Zemaj?
11 A. Tahir left with the same people he came with. They simply took
12 with them the person who fell down. The others left in a different
14 Q. What about the soldiers who were with the horses with the
15 ammunition? Did they go with Tahir or with Ramush or somewhere else?
16 A. No, no. They came in the direction that the jeep had come.
17 Q. That was Tahir Zemaj's jeep?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And Ramush went in the opposite direction?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. When was the next time you saw Ramush Haradinaj?
22 A. If I'm not mistaken, after a week or 10 days.
23 Q. Where were you?
24 A. I was above Gjocaj village.
25 Q. Describe where you were above Gjocaj village?
1 A. I was on a hill and below was like a meadow, and there was a
2 mountain path going by, going towards Gjocaj -- Junik, Pastrik
3 [as interpetered] and so on.
4 Q. What were you doing there?
5 A. There were refugees heading towards Albania and a woman was about
6 to give birth.
7 Q. How did you come to be there?
8 A. We received information that a woman needed help. She was about
9 to deliver her baby and that I was supposed to go there.
10 Q. Who told you to go there?
11 A. Doctor, not the doctor personally but someone else. The doctor
12 said this to someone else and this someone else told me. I don't remember
13 who it was. It was a soldier.
14 Q. Now, where was the woman giving birth? Was she in the village or
15 above the village or somewhere else?
16 A. Above the village.
17 Q. Did you assist her in the birth?
18 A. Yes, more or less. There were other women there too.
19 Q. You said there was a mountain path. Where did the path go to and
21 A. The path came in the direction of the mountains and then headed
22 towards Junik, Jasiq, and the entire territory there.
23 Q. Do you mean the Albanian mountains?
24 A. Yes, yes.
25 Q. What was that path used for at that time?
1 A. It was used for the refugees, for weapons, for moving wounded
3 Q. Did you see any FARK soldiers on that day when you were in the
4 meadow above Gjocaj?
5 A. I cannot say whether they were FARK or KLA soldiers. I only saw
6 that soldiers were passing by from Albania towards some places.
7 Q. How were the soldiers travelling? Were they on foot or on horse
8 back or in a vehicle or what?
9 A. No, no. They were walking. The animals were loaded.
10 Q. Horses?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. How many?
13 A. I don't know, but probably 10, 15, more or less. I didn't even
14 have the time to count them.
15 Q. How many soldiers were there?
16 A. There were, how to say, maybe 20, 30, more, but not all of them
17 were soldiers. Among them there were civilians.
18 Q. And the animal -- you said the horses were loaded. Was that with
19 ammunition, military supplies?
20 A. Maybe there were also medicaments there. I didn't see, there were
21 weapons, ammunition, rocket launchers, cannons. What can I say?
22 Q. How far were you from the soldiers when they passed by?
23 A. I was near the road when they passed.
24 Q. What was the approximate distance between you and the soldiers?
25 A. I was close to them, two, three, four metres away. There were
1 also many tractors with refugees going by, cars, horse, carts, because
2 there were many refugees going towards Albania.
3 Q. You said that day was the next time you saw Ramush Haradinaj.
4 When did you see him?
5 A. After they, the persons with horses passed, a car came by and
6 Ramush and some other soldiers came out of it.
7 Q. What sort of car was it?
8 A. Don't remember that. Jeep, I think.
9 Q. You said you'd seen his brother Daut before. Was he there?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Were they armed?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What were they armed with?
14 A. Ramush and Daut, I don't remember what they had. But the others,
15 I remember they had a light machine-gun and automatic rifles.
16 Q. How many in total of them were there?
17 A. Four, five, I think. But when the others came by, the group
18 became bigger because they were wearing the same uniforms.
19 Q. What did Ramush and the other soldiers do when they got out of the
21 A. I only heard one voice saying, "I am the one who gives the orders
22 here." And then I heard the shots.
23 Q. Whose voice was that?
24 A. It was 90 per cent I would say it was Ramush's voice, but it was
25 an echo, an echo came along with the voice. It was some distance away.
1 Q. How far were you from this particular site, that is the Ramush and
2 his soldiers and the other soldiers with the horses?
3 A. Maybe about 80 metres far.
4 Q. And what sort of view did you have of the confrontation?
5 A. I was sitting on a hill and I could see from where I was standing,
6 I had a good view of the land below.
7 Q. Was there anything between you and the confrontation? I mean in
8 your line of sight.
9 A. No, there was nothing.
10 Q. You heard shots. What did you see?
11 A. After Ramush's words, or at least I think it was Ramush who said
12 those words, I'm not 100 per cent sure, I turned my head, and then I
13 continued to assist this woman who was also crying in labour. And then I
14 heard the shots and after that I saw that two or three people fell down.
15 And then I went along with the refugees.
16 Q. You said you saw two -- what do you mean by fell down? Describe
17 what you saw.
18 A. No.
19 Q. How did they fall? Where did they fall? When did they fall, in
20 relation to the shots?
21 A. They fell on the ground, on the meadow. I know that the shots
22 came from a very close distance.
23 Q. Who was doing the shooting?
24 A. From what I saw, someone holding a light machine-gun.
25 Q. Was that in Ramush's group or the other group?
1 A. Yes. He was in Ramush's group.
2 Q. Did those who fall on the ground get up?
3 A. No. I didn't see them getting up. But I was also busy, you know,
4 helping this woman deliver her baby.
5 Q. What did the remaining soldiers, that is those who didn't fall on
6 the ground, do?
7 A. From what I know, they were surprised, and I was told that some of
8 them came up very surprised at what had happened.
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Excuse me, I didn't really understand the gist of
10 this answer. Some of them came up? What does that mean?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They returned. They came up, up the
12 mountain or up the hill.
13 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
14 MR. RE:
15 Q. When they came up the hill, did they leave behind the two or three
16 that fell to the ground after the shooting?
17 A. I suppose yes, because they didn't have anything with them other
18 than the weapons.
19 Q. What did they say to you?
20 A. They only said that they were killed among themselves.
21 Q. Can you just elaborate on that? I don't quite understand.
22 A. When they came up the hill, the others asked them, "What
23 happened?" And they said, "They killed each other."
24 Q. Where did Ramush and his men go in their jeep?
25 A. I didn't see that, because, as I said, I started to climb the
1 hill, and what to say, I was afraid because shells were falling from all
2 directions, and I simply joined the group that was going up.
3 Q. All right. I'm going to move to another area, and I'm going to
4 ask you about a person, I just want to mention the name, but could we do
5 that in private session?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Turn into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Page 8153 redacted. Private session.
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Please proceed, Mr. Re.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Do you know Lake Radonjic?
20 A. I heard about it.
21 Q. What did you hear about it?
22 A. I heard hearsay that there were many dead bodies found there.
23 Q. When did you hear that?
24 A. At that time.
25 Q. Did you hear anything about how the bodies got to Lake Radonjic?
1 A. From what I heard, they pulled the bodies out of the lake on
2 lorries. I didn't see anything with my own eyes.
3 Q. Who told you that?
4 A. That so-called cousin.
5 Q. What did the cousin tell you?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, the witness said the bodies were
7 dumped into the lake by lorries.
8 A. They were Serbs, Catholics, Albanians, everybody who was killed
9 was dumped there.
10 Q. The cousin told you that?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When did the cousin tell you that?
13 A. One evening, when I was in his village, and I was about to return
14 to Junik, and he was showing me the way, it was on a meadow, and there was
15 a lorry parked on the road, and four or five people were loading it with
16 something which to me seemed like corpses.
17 Q. Well, where was that? That you saw that?
18 A. On the map it says Dubovik.
19 Q. Where was the road to?
20 A. What did you say? Can you repeat it, please?
21 Q. Where was the road to? You said there was a lorry parked on the
22 road. What was the road between?
23 A. I don't know.
24 Q. All right. Let's just go back to the cousin. You said that the
25 cousin told you about bodies being dumped there. How did the cousin know
1 about the bodies being dumped there?
2 A. I don't know. Maybe he had seen something or heard something.
3 Personally, I don't know. I didn't see anything. I didn't see anyone
4 dumping dead bodies there or taking corpses there. I didn't see anything.
5 Q. Did the cousin have any injuries?
6 A. No. There was someone else who had injuries in that village, from
7 my recollection.
8 Q. Were you ever treating someone with a bullet wound to their leg?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. Can you tell us about that?
11 A. He was a cousin. His name was mentioned earlier in private
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
14 MR. EMMERSON: This is the danger with leading questions, with the
15 greatest of respect. The witness is asked an open question, "Was the
16 person concerned injured?" Answer, "No."
17 JUDGE ORIE: We can ask for Mr. Re -- Witness 55, half a minute
18 ago, the following question was put to you: "Did the cousin have any
19 injuries"? You then answered, "No. There was someone else who had
20 injuries in that village, from my recollection." And then you were asked
21 whether you were ever treating someone with a bullet wound to their leg.
22 And you said, "Yes."
23 Mr. Re then asked you "Can you tell us about that"? And you said,
24 "He was a cousin." And you then referred to his name being mentioned
25 earlier. So within half a minute, at the one moment you say the cousin
1 was not injured and then asked about someone with a wound, you say, that
2 was the cousin. And that's not easy to reconcile. Could you explain?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the cousin. I don't want to
4 mention his name now again because I mentioned his name in private
5 session. His cousin.
6 JUDGE ORIE: But when earlier asked did the cousin have any
7 injuries, you said no, there was someone else who had injuries. So --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The cousin who gave me bread, I had
9 treated him once. He had a wound on his leg. But the other person who
10 showed me the way to Junik, he didn't have any injuries.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No. There is another matter here involved. We
12 go into -- no. If you give a person a name, and you say, the other is his
13 cousin, then usually you could refer to the man known by name as the
14 cousin as well. Now, the cousin, from the cousin. I think that there
15 might be the confusion, and I think we could continue. Please proceed,
16 Mr. Re.
17 Mr. Emmerson?
18 MR. EMMERSON: I would if I may like to have it clarified that the
19 witness is seeking to indicate that the injury --
20 JUDGE ORIE: He said the person who gave him the bread and that's
21 a clear reference to his earlier statement, I would say, where he said --
22 MR. EMMERSON: Very well.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And we have only two minutes left, Mr. Re.
24 Therefore, I would urge you to move on. To proceed, I should say.
25 MR. RE:
1 Q. Did you hear whose trucks were going down to the lake?
2 A. From what I heard, they were KLA.
3 Q. And what were you told about the trucks?
4 A. I was told that they go to Radonjic Lake and dump the bodies
6 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I ask, while we are finishing, when that was
7 about, that you were told that and the rest of what you told us?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That happened that day, and earlier
9 and later.
10 MR. RE:
11 Q. What month was that in 1998?
12 A. Don't remember. I know it was either the end of spring or
13 beginning of summer.
14 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
15 MR. RE:
16 Q. Just on those --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I said we would not stop any minute later
18 than quarter to 7.00. It is six minutes to 7.00 now, so if there is one
19 question, please put it to the witness and then we'll conclude with this
20 witness at least for the day.
21 MR. RE:
22 Q. Okay, just in relation to the -- you said you saw some bodies
23 being put on to a truck in a village. Who was putting the bodies on to
24 the truck and how many bodies were there?
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, Your Honour, but I believe that's a
1 not-- a misstatement of what the witness --
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I was just about to say, the witness didn't say he
3 saw the bodies being put on the truck but it seemed to him, it looked like
4 bodies. Isn't this what you told us?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think that's clear, Mr. Re. Let's -- in
6 order not to lose further time, who was putting on the truck what appeared
7 to you to be corpses?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not certain, but from what I
9 saw, and night was falling, they were soldiers, five or six of them. They
10 were wearing military trousers.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember how much of these objects which from
12 a distance you -- that seemed to you to be corpses, how many were loaded
13 upon the truck?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say for sure. Maybe five
15 or six. It seemed to me as if that thing they were putting on the truck
16 was a corpse because I saw a head falling down.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 55, we will conclude for the day. Since this
18 Court is not sitting tomorrow, and since we have a schedule for the
19 beginning of next week which does not allow to immediately have you
20 cross-examined, we will resume your testimony most likely Thursday next
21 week. That means that you are able to go home now, and you're expected to
22 return then Thursday next week. The victims and witness section will be
23 in touch with you if anything changes.
24 Since you have not yet finished your testimony, I again instruct
25 you that you should not speak with anyone about the testimony you have
1 already given and the testimony still to be given.
2 MR. EMMERSON: Just before the witness goes, and in view of the
3 break, he gave an answer in the course of an earlier session which is not
4 clear at all on the transcript, and it's a matter that I would like, if
5 possible, just to seek clarification of, but it's not a matter that I can
6 deal with in open session. There is a reason why I'd like to seek
7 clarification of it now.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, at the same time, there are very practical
9 reasons. Can do you that in one minute?
10 MR. EMMERSON: I can do it in 30 seconds.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, no problems with that? Okay. Then, please,
12 Witness, there is one more question for you which needs clarification at
13 this moment. Please proceed.
14 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you very much.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We have to turn into private session for that.
16 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 There are three matters on my list which we could deal with in the
23 next nine minutes. The first is the Chamber would like to receive brief
24 submissions in relation to -- I think it's protective measures for
25 Witnesses 10 and 48 who will testify through videolink.
1 MR. DIXON: Your Honour, if I can please indicate on behalf of
2 Mr. Haradinaj that our submissions are that the grounds have not been made
3 out sufficiently in both applications. There is no indication in either
4 application of specific threats being made. And in addition to that,
5 there is no evidence of any concrete plans to return to Kosovo. There is
6 only a general explanation of the difficulties that the witnesses find
7 themselves in from an economic point of view. And in those circumstances,
8 we do have objections to the motions in the sense that they have not been
9 substantiated properly. There is no evidence properly made out on the
10 Prosecution's submissions.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Mr. Dixon.
12 Mr. Guy-Smith?
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Join.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey?
15 MR. HARVEY: Join.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Then there is another matter, Mr. Re, I'm
17 addressing you. In the application for admission under Rule 92 bis, in
18 relation to a woman, I do not know whether there will ever be a request
19 for protective measures, so therefore I'll not mention her name at this
20 moment, but a woman who recognised not the bodily remains but the clothing
21 of two elderly ladies. It was said that this was evidence corroborating
22 the evidence given by Novak Stijovic. The Chamber was very much puzzled
23 by that, and if you consider this to be corroborative evidence to the
24 evidence of Novak Stijovic, the Chamber would like to know what portion of
25 the evidence Novak Stijovic gave. Not necessarily now but to inform the
1 Chamber so that we are less puzzled by this submission. And I take it
2 that if you inform the Chamber that you'll communicate with the Defence.
3 And then finally, the last thing I've got on my agenda for this
4 moment is that the Chamber should still deliver the reasons for the
5 decision on the Prosecution's motion for video conference testimony for
6 witness Novak Stijovic.
7 The Chamber would like to give its reasons for having granted the
8 Prosecution's motion for witness Novak Stijovic's testimony to be heard
9 via video conference link.
10 The Prosecution filed its motion on the 12th of July 2007. The
11 Defence for Mr. Haradinaj and Mr. Balaj opposed the motion in submissions
12 filed on the 16th of July 2007.
13 On the 17th of July 2007, the Chamber granted the motion with
14 reasons to follow. The reference to this can be found on transcript page
15 6987 at lines 19 to 23.
16 The witness testified via video conference link on the 19th of
17 July 2007.
18 The Chamber reiterates its approach to video conferences as set
19 out in its written decision filed on the 21st of March 2007. The test is
20 as follows: The witness must be unable or have good reasons to be
21 unwilling to come to the Tribunal; the testimony of the witness must be
22 sufficiently important to make it unfair to the requesting party to
23 proceed without it; and the accused must not be prejudiced in the exercise
24 of his or her right to confront the witness.
25 The Defence has argued that the medical evidence provided by the
1 Prosecution did not establish the inability of the witness to travel to
2 The Hague.
3 The Chamber has carefully reviewed the witness's medical reports
4 provided in confidential annex C of the Prosecution's motion. The witness
5 has been found to suffer from restricted and painful movements which call
6 for treatment and rest. While the Chamber agrees with the Defence that
7 the medical reports do not prove that the witness is unable to travel, the
8 Chamber has found that they show that he had good reasons to be unwilling
9 to testify at the seat of the Tribunal.
10 Since the witness is a named victim of the crimes alleged in
11 counts 5 and 6 of the indictment, the Chamber was satisfied that his
12 testimony was sufficiently important to make it unfair to the Prosecution
13 to proceed without it.
14 Finally, there is no reason to believe that the accused would be
15 prejudiced in the exercise of their right to confront the witness.
16 Consequently, the Chamber found that it was in the interests of
17 justice to grant the Prosecution motion and this concludes the Chamber's
18 ruling on this matter.
19 Mr. Guy-Smith?
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. I wonder how best to proceed. Two matters
21 came up during the private session testimony that we had with Witness 55.
14 [Private session]
11 Pages 8166-8168 redacted. Private session.
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we are back in open session.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar, we adjourn and we'll resume
23 on the 10th of September, quarter past 2.00, in Courtroom I.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of
1 September, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.