Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 8171

1 Monday, 10 September 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.21 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to

7 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor

8 versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 This afternoon the schedule that we hear witnesses by videolink,

11 but for the first witness to be called still an application for protective

12 measures is pending, an application which is opposed by Defence counsel.

13 Therefore, before we establish the videolink we turn into private session.

14 Yes, Mr. Emmerson.

15 One second, Mr. Registrar.

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Page 8172

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20 [Open session]

21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in open session.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you, Mr. Registrar.

23 When we just were in private session, Mr. Emmerson, although not

24 adding any reasons for his concerns, expressed the deep concerns of the

25 Haradinaj Defence for the next witness to give evidence in -- through

Page 8173

1 videolink.

2 Mr. Guy-Smith.

3 MR. GUY-SMITH: I rise only to say that we are in a similar

4 position and join in the concern that was expressed by Mr. Emmerson on

5 behalf of Mr. Haradinaj.


7 MR. GUY-SMITH: With -- once again, with -- on the same state of

8 the record.


10 MR. HARVEY: Your Honour, you can of course safely assume that I

11 join my colleagues in that concern.


13 As I said before, there's still an application pending for

14 protective measures. We'll now turn into private session again in order

15 to establish the videolink with the place where the witnesses are present,

16 and we'll start with the witness ...

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Page 8182

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

4 The Chamber will deliberate on the application for protective

5 measures and does not expect that it will take very long. We stand

6 adjourned and parties are invited to remain in the courtroom.

7 --- Break taken at 2.46 p.m.

8 --- On resuming at 2.54 p.m.

9 [Private session]

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Page 8184

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16 [Open session]

17 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay, Your Honour.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio -- perhaps I first explain that he'll be

21 examined.

22 You'll now be examined by Mr. Di Fazio, who's counsel for the

23 Prosecution. Please listen well to his questions and answer them.

24 Mr. Di Fazio.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

Page 8185

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead.

2 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

3 Q. Mr. Jollaj, I wanted to ask you some questions about your personal

4 background, in early 1998, in the spring of 1998, where did you live?

5 A. In Gllogjan.

6 Q. How long had your family been living in that village?

7 A. For a long time. My great-grandfathers, my grandfathers lived

8 there.

9 Q. And did you have a house in Gllogjan?

10 A. Yes, yes, it was a new house just built.

11 Q. When was it built?

12 A. I started building it in 1982. From 1982 to the moment I left, I

13 spent money on building that house. I only worked to build that house.

14 Q. And the land that the house was located on, whose land was that?

15 A. My father bought that land, it was my father's.

16 Q. Did you know of a family, the Haradinaj family or Haradinaj family

17 in Gllogjan?

18 A. Yes, I know them. They are neighbours. My house is on the land

19 of Ramush's uncle.

20 Q. What's that person's name?

21 A. You mean when did I buy the land?

22 Q. No, the name of the uncle. Who do you mean?

23 A. His name is Azem Iziri Haradinaj.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, it may be clear to you that ownership

25 of the land creates more confusion at this moment than --

Page 8186

1 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm not going to go into it chapter and verse, I'm

2 more interested in the geography of the structures.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Please proceed.


5 Q. How far was your house from the Haradinaj house?

6 A. Are you asking me about the house of Ramush's uncle, from whom I

7 bought the land, or Ramush's house?

8 Q. I'm interested in Ramush's house, that's the house I'm interested

9 in. How far was your house from the house that you call Ramush's house?

10 A. Ramush's house was in the middle of the village about 200 or 300

11 metres from my house, and then they moved a little lower. It's not too

12 far away from where I live.

13 Q. Okay. Think back -- think back to early 1998, spring of 1998.

14 You said that they moved a little lower. Now, in spring of 1998 --

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. -- in the early months of 1998, how far was your house from

17 Ramush's house?

18 A. Well, I cannot explain exactly how far it is. Formerly his house

19 was in the middle of the village, and later they moved to a place which is

20 closer to Dubrave. Well, I cannot tell you how many metres, it's not

21 kilometres though, it's metres away.

22 Q. Okay. Earlier you said that Ramush's house was in the middle of

23 the village 2 to 300 metres away from your house. When you said that,

24 were you talking about the distance that --

25 A. Yes, that's true.

Page 8187

1 Q. Was that the distance in spring of 1998 from your house to his

2 house, about 2 to 300 metres?

3 A. Yes, yes. I'm sure it was. I'm not sure which year he moved to

4 that other house, though. Ramush, his father --

5 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went and worked for Ramush and his

7 father. We had good relations. We had no frictions amongst each other.

8 They helped me, I helped them, together with my sons. We did not have any

9 conflict with each other until the war.


11 Q. All right --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, the 2 and 300 metres were clearly

13 related in the answer of the witness to the house in the middle of the

14 village. So now we move again to 2 to 300 metres to the new house where

15 he moved, where the witness said he doesn't know exactly when they moved

16 into that house. That is all rather unclear to me. And there's another

17 matter. I do not know where the witness lived at the time. If the

18 parties would know, I mean such distances could be, I would say, easily

19 agreed upon or ...

20 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, they may well be. I've had no overtures from

21 the Defence. I didn't think that this was the sort of issue that I should

22 approach the Defence on to seek agreement on --

23 JUDGE ORIE: From the statement, I take it that distances from

24 where you can see certain matters might not be without any relevance. So

25 therefore the Chamber would like to have a clear view here. I don't know

Page 8188

1 whether there are any pictures, I don't know whether we could ask the

2 witness to identify where his house was at the time. And then of course

3 the Chamber heard other evidence about where the villages -- about where

4 the Haradinaj house in relation to the villages, but we need some --

5 MR. EMMERSON: Can I indicate.


7 MR. EMMERSON: I would certainly be in a position to identify

8 where we understand this witness's family home was built, but I would be

9 most reluctant for that to be a substitution for the Trial Chamber hearing

10 for itself what this witness has to say about matters of this kind.


12 MR. EMMERSON: Because they go directly to [indiscernible] --

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I do understand that there are specific reasons

14 why -- or rather not to agree upon these matters.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll try and --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, let's try to get as clear as possible

17 where the house was located, where the witness and his family lived.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

19 Q. You said that the Haradinaj family lived in the -- in the middle

20 of the village and then they moved. Okay. Now, of the two houses, the

21 one that was in the middle of the village and the other one that they

22 moved, which one was closer to your house?

23 A. Ramush's uncle's house was closer to me, about 50 metres away from

24 me. Ramush was a little further down. I can't give you the exact number

25 of metres. He was closer to the centre of the village, middle of the

Page 8189

1 village. I don't know what to say. Well, I would describe it as being

2 close to the middle -- to the centre of the village, and there are houses

3 where they moved later towards Dubrave, closer to Dubrave. His uncles are

4 there, and Ramush's house is about a hundred metres from there. Well, as

5 I said, I cannot give you an exact number of metres how far it is.

6 Q. Let's just forget about Ramush's uncles, let's forget about

7 everyone except for Ramush, okay, Mr. Ramush Haradinaj. Let's focus on

8 him. Just think about him. Just think about his house and where he

9 lived, that's all, not his uncles or his relations, but just about

10 Ramush Haradinaj. In the spring of 1998 where was he living?

11 A. Okay. In 1998 Ramush lived further down. He had left that house

12 at the centre of the village, went further down between Dubrave and

13 Gllogjan.

14 Q. Thank you. And when you --

15 A. That's where Dubrave ends.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. You're welcome.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I intend to move on from

19 this --

20 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to know where the witness lived, I mean, so

21 we can verify distances.

22 Witness, could you tell us were you at that time living in the

23 village of Gllogjan or were you living outside the village of Gllogjan?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was living in Gllogjan. I never

25 left Gllogjan. Just when the war started I left of my own will. I had to

Page 8190

1 leave to go to Gjakove because my wife was in hospital, while my family

2 remained in the village. As I said, I never left the village.

3 JUDGE ORIE: I'd like to know, were you living in the centre of

4 the village?

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Myself?


7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't live in the centre of the

8 village. I'm further away from the centre of the village. It's not too

9 far away. It's the road that leads to Shaptej, from the centre of

10 Gllogjan, the road goes towards Shaptej. Shaptej is only ten minutes away

11 on foot. From the centre of Gllogjan to my house is about 200 metres.

12 That's all the distance between me and the centre of the village.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. May I ask you, if you arrive in the village

14 from the direction of Irzniq, yes, can you follow me? And if you want --

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I follow you.

16 JUDGE ORIE: And if you want to go to Dubrava, is it true that

17 then in the centre of the village you have to turn to the right? So from

18 Irzniq --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct. You have to

20 take a right in order to go to Dubrave.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, in order to go to your house, do you also

22 take that same road to the right in the village or do you take a different

23 road?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, on the left. You have to turn

25 left. From the centre you turn left. It's very close.

Page 8191

1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we have a clear aerial -- and then from

2 where you turn to the left, how far is it then, how many minutes' walk?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To my house?


5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Five minutes, not even that. It's

6 very close.


8 There's a fair chance that one of the aerial views, we have

9 pictures of aerial views, would show approximately where the house of the

10 witness was, Mr. Di Fazio. Because I do understand that this -- at quite

11 a distance from the house, we learned later to be Mr. Haradinaj's house or

12 at that time to be Mr. Haradinaj's house. But I leave it in your hands at

13 this moment. Please proceed, but the Chamber would prefer not to be left

14 in confusion in this respect.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll see if we can make arrangements for the aerial

16 map to be provided --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Well, not necessarily, we have also pictures of --

18 aerial pictures showing houses, et cetera.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. If Your Honours please --

20 JUDGE ORIE: If I may draw your attention to number U0143045. I

21 could not exclude for the possibility -- I don't know whether it's an

22 exhibit or not, but please proceed.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: I'll ask to see if we can get that up on the

24 screen. Perhaps if I just proceed in the meantime and we can return to

25 the ...

Page 8192

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


5 Q. I'd like to ask you some questions, Mr. Jollaj, about your

6 knowledge of Haradinaj family. You've mentioned Mr. Haradinaj's name.

7 Can you tell us how long you had known him or you knew him back in 1998?

8 A. To speak the truth, in 1998 I could not see Ramush very often.

9 I saw him before the KLA came out in uniforms. That's when I saw him.

10 I heard that he had come to my house, but I was not interested in very

11 much in what the KLA was doing. I know that he was involved with the KLA

12 and was wearing uniforms. I saw him on the street, passing. I was

13 minding my own business. I was not interested in what he was doing.

14 He had his own business, I had my own business. I was not interested.

15 Q. Did you know him as a child, when he was a child?

16 A. Yes. Since he was very little, he was a toddler, because my son

17 and Ramush grew up together. We knew each other. Both our families knew

18 each other, uncles and so on.

19 Q. Thank you. And his father, do you know his father?

20 A. Yes, I know his father. I've sat with him. We had food together.

21 We drank together .

22 Q. All right. Thanks --

23 A. -- and we worked in the agricultural cooperative together.

24 Q. Thank you. In 1998, was -- as far as -- if you know this, please

25 tell us, did Ramush live in the same house as his father?

Page 8193

1 A. Well, to speak the truth, I don't know. I'm not sure, and I

2 cannot tell you things that I don't know about. Please, don't ask me

3 questions about things I don't know.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness be shown D35, please.

5 Q. Witness, I'd like you to have a look at this particular photograph

6 that's going to be shown to you on the screen that I hope you have in

7 front of you.

8 A. On the screen?

9 Q. No, that can't -- I'm told that that's not technically possible.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, we can try and get a hard

11 copy sent down on the break. Apparently there's no screen that's going to

12 enable me to put this photograph to the witness. So I'll move on and I'll

13 see if I can make arrangements for it to be sent during the break or sent

14 via our staff outside the courtroom.

15 JUDGE ORIE: So this cannot be shown on the screen what we have

16 now in front of us?

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, that's what I'm told.

18 [Prosecution counsel confer]

19 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, the understanding is -- my understanding is

20 that it cannot be shown on the screen.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

23 Q. Do you, Witness -- did you know a gentleman, a Serbian gentleman

24 named Otovic?

25 A. I know Otovic, I knew him well. I worked with him.

Page 8194

1 Q. What was his occupation?

2 A. Otovic was a police officer. He worked in the police station in

3 Decan. From Decan they came to Irzniq and worked in Irzniq. I know him

4 well.

5 Q. Is -- was he killed in 1998?

6 A. Yes, he was killed, Otovic was killed in front of Ramush's gate --

7 Q. Just slow down. I'm going to ask you about him later, but not at

8 the moment. Can you remember the date on which he was killed?

9 A. No. To be honest, I cannot remember the date. I was not paying

10 attention --

11 Q. Okay. Thank you --

12 A. -- to dates and stuff like.

13 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The answer's no. Do you

14 remember the season?

15 A. Well, it was summer.

16 Q. Thank you. I'd like you to think about the period of time for

17 about two months before he was killed. In that time, were you living in

18 Gllogjan?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. In that time did you -- did you have an opportunity to see traffic

21 coming into and out of the village at night-time?

22 A. I don't know about nights. I was working non-stop, but I had

23 heard from young people that those things were happening, that the Serbs,

24 the police in uniforms came and ill-treated people. That did not happen

25 to me. There were cases that I heard that --

Page 8195

1 Q. Just --

2 A. -- that they had police uniforms and they stopped people and --

3 Q. Witness, just slow down --

4 A. -- and that never happened to me.

5 Q. Slow down. Slow down. The shorter the answer that you give, the

6 easier it will be for you and the easier it will be for me. Now, just

7 think back. I'm asking -- okay.

8 A. Okay, I understand.

9 Q. It will be easier. Just think back in the period of time the two

10 months before this fellow Otovic was killed. What I want to know is

11 this: Did you during those two month or that period of time, did you have

12 a chance to see cars or traffic moving in and out of the village, if that

13 occurred, during the night-time, at night, cars and traffic coming in,

14 people coming into the village in cars and vehicles? Did you have a

15 chance to see that?

16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me, I think the question -- excuse me, sir.

17 JUDGE ORIE: One second.

18 Mr. Guy-Smith.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think the question is as presently

20 constituted as --

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were --

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jollaj, would you please wait a second before you

23 answer the question.

24 Mr. Guy-Smith.

25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think the question as presently constituted as

Page 8196

1 vague, "Did he have a chance." He's already indicated that he did not see

2 any such traffic by virtue of a previous answer. I don't know whether at

3 this point what Mr. Di Fazio is asking for is a possibility that something

4 could have occurred or something more definite. And my real concern is

5 the question as presently put together as vague.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio --

7 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't think so there's --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not see.

9 MR. DI FAZIO: Fine.

10 JUDGE ORIE: That more or less resolves the matter. We can move

11 on.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Perhaps I should stop objecting regard to that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I would not encourage parties to do so for this

14 reason Mr. Guy-Smith.

15 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps I first address the witness.

18 Witness, could you please listen carefully to the questions and

19 try to answer them briefly, focusing on what specifically the question is

20 about.

21 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

23 Q. Okay. All right. Now, look, you've told us, sir, that you knew

24 about this fellow called Otovic and that he was killed. Did you see that?

25 Did you see him being killed?

Page 8197

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Okay. Now --

3 A. I was close. I was passing on the road. I was coming from

4 Gjakove. I stopped and I left. I went down to the stream because I was

5 afraid that I would be killed myself --

6 Q. Okay -- okay --

7 A. -- I didn't know what was going on.

8 Q. Now, I'm going to get you to tell the story, but I'm going to get

9 you to tell the story in answer to my questions. Okay. So we'll tell

10 your story, and you'll describe it, what you saw, but only in answer to my

11 questions. So you just listen to the question and in that way we'll start

12 to explain to the Judges what you saw and what you know about this. Okay.

13 First of all, on the day that he was killed, was it in the morning

14 or in midday or in the afternoon that you saw Otovic?

15 A. It was about 9.00 or 10.00 in the morning. I'm not very sure

16 because I didn't have a watch.

17 Q. All right. Thank you. Thank you. You've answered the question.

18 Now I'll ask my next question. Was he alone or with other police

19 officers?

20 A. He was with another colleague. There was Mar Milic with him.

21 Q. I'm sorry, I don't think I got the name. Can you just repeat the

22 name again, please, the name of his colleague.

23 A. Momo Milic, he's from Palabardh.

24 Q. So was Mr. Otovic just with Momo Milic or were there other police

25 officers? Were there just two police officers or more than two?

Page 8198

1 A. Two, I saw two. I don't know anything about others because I left

2 that spot.

3 Q. Thank you. Was there a police car?

4 A. Yes, there was a car.

5 Q. And -- thank you. Now, when you saw Otovic and these policemen --

6 and his partner and the police car, what were you doing? Where were you

7 planning on going or what were you planning on doing?

8 A. When I heard the shots, I left that place and didn't go home until

9 the next day at about 6.00, 7.00 in the morning. I was too scared to go

10 back home.

11 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's just go back now and we'll try and get a

12 bit more detail so we have the story in full. Okay. How far away were

13 you -- when you heard the shots, how far away were you from Mr. Otovic

14 would you say?

15 A. To tell you the truth, I can't be very accurate, of course, I was

16 very close to Ljubica's house when I heard the shots, and you could see

17 the police car down there on the road. Then, as I said, I was -- I became

18 scared when I heard the shots, and I crossed over a fence and went to a

19 meadow. And then after a while I saw many people gathered leaving the

20 place going to Gjakove --

21 Q. Okay. All right. Can I ask you this: When you heard the shots,

22 did you see who fired the shots? Did you see who fired the shots when you

23 heard them?

24 A. It was Hilmi, Ramush's father, whom the policeman asked

25 something -- actually, I didn't hear what the policeman asked him about, I

Page 8199

1 only heard the shots. Then from the distance I saw Hilmi, Ramush's

2 father. Then after the fire, I didn't see anything else. I saw Ramush

3 with a weapon coming out of the house, but I was afraid lest I was going

4 to be killed, too, as I said, I left the location, went to the meadow --

5 Q. Okay. Thanks, thanks. Can you tell the Trial Chamber this, you

6 said that you saw Hilmi and you said that you saw Ramush and that he also

7 had a weapon coming out of the house. Did Hilmi have a weapon?

8 A. No, Hilmi, no, he didn't have a weapon. He came at the door to

9 talk with the policemen. About this I heard later, actually. I didn't

10 hear that at that moment. After Otovic died, I heard that.

11 Q. Okay. All right. Let me --

12 A. Otovic had gone to Ramush's house to ask for him, his father came

13 out.

14 Q. Okay. So it's very important that we know what you saw with your

15 own eyes and what you heard, okay. So we'd like to make a difference.

16 It's important to the Trial Chamber to know the difference between what

17 you saw and what you heard. So let me ask you this, let me ask you this,

18 just wait for the question. Did you see --


20 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, this may well be a premature

21 interjection but may I take the opportunity --

22 JUDGE ORIE: You expect that it would be leading of --

23 MR. EMMERSON: Well, may I take the opportunity just gently to

24 remind Mr. Di Fazio to take very great care.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Di Fazio, why not approach the matter in a

Page 8200

1 very systematic way; that is, to first of all find out where the witness

2 was. Could I just put a few questions to him.

3 Witness, I would have a few questions for you. When this all

4 happened, where did you come from? You said you were passing by. You

5 were coming from where?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From Gjakove.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Were you walking? Were you in a car? Were you on a

8 bike? How did you move from Gjakove to the place where you --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was on a bike. I was coming home

10 on a bike.

11 JUDGE ORIE: You were coming home on a bike. Were you on the main

12 road between Gramaqel and Gllogjan when you passed the house, the

13 Haradinajs' house?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I did not hear the --

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you said you heard shots. Were you still

18 on your bike when you heard these shots?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I stopped the bike and then I

20 saw what was going on. I heard the shots, and then I dropped the bike,

21 crossed over a fence, and headed towards that meadow. And then the shots

22 became more intensive and firing continued up until 8.00 in the evening.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Let me take you back. Let me take you back. One

24 second. The first time you heard a shot, were you still on your bike?

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

Page 8201

1 JUDGE ORIE: And can you tell us how far away you at that moment

2 were when you heard this first shot, you still on your bike, from

3 Haradinajs' house?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was 50 metres away, less than 50

5 metres away. I was very close.

6 JUDGE ORIE: And then you said you came off your bike and you

7 turned then. When you left your bike, did you go to the left of the road

8 or did you go to the right of the road?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went in the direction of Baballoq

10 village. There was no other way for me to go other than Baballoq, to go

11 to the road heading towards Gjakove.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could you tell us just by using your arms what

13 kind of -- what side of the road you went. Could you just indicate that

14 with your arms.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the left, to go to the Baballoq

16 village. I was walking on the main road between Gramaqel and Gllogjan on

17 the right side. Then, when I left, I headed for the left to go to

18 Baballoq.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me stop you there. When you left that road

20 where you were biking, did you go on another road or did you go on the

21 meadows?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the meadow. I didn't dare go to

23 the road. I walked across the meadow because, as I said, there were

24 police cars, people started shooting, the situation became very confusing

25 and chaotic, so I didn't dare go to the road.

Page 8202

1 JUDGE ORIE: When you heard this first shot, were there already

2 more than one police car?

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was one police car, a Golf,

4 belonging to Momo Milic, not the police car but a Golf car.

5 JUDGE ORIE: So do I understand then, if you went to the meadows

6 that you moved away -- away from the Haradinajs' house?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I left that place. I moved

8 away because I was afraid of being killed.

9 JUDGE ORIE: And how far did you go from the road to the left and

10 to the meadows?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went to Baballoq village.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Immediately or after a while?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After a while because I didn't dare

14 leave immediately. There was a brook running by and all of us entered,

15 women, children, all of us went to that place and rested there. When

16 evening came, it was about 6.00 or 7.00 p.m., at that time we went to

17 Baballoq village.

18 JUDGE ORIE: But when you heard the shot, when you got off your

19 bike, did you immediately go to that brook or did you stay nearby the

20 Haradinaj house?

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I went immediately. I was very

22 close to their house. There was a meadow dividing us, so I saw

23 everything. I saw the army, the car. You could see everything from where

24 we were. There were some trees hiding us from being seen by the police.

25 You could see women, children, they had taken shelter there.

Page 8203

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there for a moment. What you tell us

2 now, that must have been later, isn't it, because you said there was only

3 one police car in the beginning.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One. There was only one, but after

5 Otovic got killed they called their headquarters and the police and the --

6 the police and the army came immediately.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I do understand that. But what I would like to know

8 is how far you went into the meadows immediately after you heard that

9 shot. When you got off your bike, you went into the meadows, so within

10 that one or two minutes, how far away did you move from the road?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was about to tell you, not more

12 than 200 metres away because that was a good hiding place at the brook.

13 There we rested a while and then, as I said, in the evening at about 7.00,

14 7.30 - I couldn't be exact because I didn't look at the time - we entered

15 Baballoq. There we stayed, we spent the night there, and on the next day

16 I went back home and asked about what had happened.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. When you moved into the

18 meadows, did you look back at the road and the house or did you just run,

19 as you said, the 200 metres?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We ran as fast as we could because

21 shots were being heard from all sides, all sorts of weapons were firing.

22 JUDGE ORIE: And that was still immediately after you got off your

23 bike?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Because in 10, 15 minutes the

25 police and the army came to the village --

Page 8204

1 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. I'm talking not about 10, 15

2 minutes; I'm talking about the first minute you got off your bike.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I heard the shot from Ramush's

4 house, I dropped my bike, as I said, and crossed over a fence heading

5 towards Baballoq walking on a meadow. Near the brook was where I stopped

6 and hid myself, and there were many other people there who were trying to

7 flee the village, women, children. Only the police and the army were left

8 in the village and those KLA, I don't know, who were fighting with the

9 police and the army.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I'm aware that I took some of your

11 time. We are about to have a break.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: I -- if at all possible, I prefer the break now.


14 MR. DI FAZIO: Because now I can just recap, go through the

15 transcript and see if there's anything else that I want to raise on this.


17 MR. DI FAZIO: And be of some assistance to me. I also understand

18 that we may be able to get an image up and if we have the break now that

19 might enable me to assist with some area --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. On the basis of the last few answers, I don't

21 know -- of course, I don't know what else you have in mind, but if there

22 is anything about the house of the witness and the Haradinaj house, then I

23 would like to know where exactly they are located.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I can only promise to do my best.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand.

Page 8205

1 Mr. Emmerson.

2 MR. EMMERSON: Just before we break, immediately before Your

3 Honour began to question the witness, he indicated in answer to

4 Mr. Di Fazio, that when he first heard the shots he was close to Ljubica's

5 house, and I wonder if we might just invite him to confirm by that he

6 means --

7 JUDGE ORIE: I do not mind at all if it clarifies the issue. It's

8 at least a very concrete matter which I could not immediately from the top

9 of my head give a follow-up, but if that could be done after the break

10 that would be appreciated.

11 Then, Witness, Mr. Jollaj, we'll have a break for 25 minutes.

12 We'll resume at quarter past 4.00.

13 --- Recess taken at 3.49 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 4.21 p.m.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, perhaps before I do, I indicate that

17 there's a black-and-white copy of the photograph that was on the screen.


19 MR. DI FAZIO: -- moments before. Yes. You can see it now,

20 that's D35. I'll attempt to, if I may, show the witness that and see how

21 far I can go with that. If he can't recognise it, I intend to move on

22 fairly swiftly.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do.


25 Q. I understand -- Witness, I'd like you to have a look at a

Page 8206

1 black-and-white aerial photograph. You may also be able to see a colour

2 version of that photograph on the screen down there where you are. Could

3 you have a look at it and tell us if you recognise that place.

4 A. The place where Ramush's house was? I'm not clear about your

5 question. Can you be more explicit, please.

6 Q. Okay. Do you know which little village or town that is?

7 A. Well, what to say now? Things have changed. I may make some

8 mistakes. It's another view now.

9 Q. Okay. Do you recognise it at all? That's all. If you don't

10 recognise it, just tell us and then we will know what to do. Just tell

11 us, do you recognise that place at all?

12 A. Well, I -- are you asking me about Gllogjan village or about some

13 other village? I don't think that this picture shows Gllogjan.

14 Q. Thank you very much.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I intend to move on now.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

18 Q. Just before the break you mentioned someone whose house you were

19 close to when you -- during the shooting episode. You mentioned a man

20 named Ljubica. Do you have his -- can you tell the Trial Chamber what his

21 surname is, Ljubica's surname?

22 A. Ljubica Stojanovic.

23 Q. And did he have a couple of sons; and if so, do you know what

24 their names were?

25 A. Dragoslav, there was another one who was a policeman, and two

Page 8207

1 others, but they left they -- they left the village. I don't know where

2 his two sons were staying. I know that one of them was a policeman in the

3 Gjakove and I know that there was this Dragoslav, this Dragan, I think

4 there were four or five of them.

5 Q. Thank you. You've already touched upon this, but I want to know

6 on the day that Otovic was shot, the day that you've been talking about,

7 do you know approximately how many Serb policemen were operating -- came

8 to the area?

9 A. To tell you the truth, there were many policemen who came, we were

10 hidden. I can't say now. I can't tell you the number of cars. I

11 couldn't say there were two or three or five, but there were many,

12 actually.

13 Q. Thank you. And during the day was there fighting going on,

14 shooting?

15 A. Yes, from 9.00, 9.30, until in 8.00 in the evening when they

16 stopped.

17 Q. Did you -- can you tell the Trial Chamber if there were any

18 helicopters present?

19 A. Yes, there was. There were three helicopters that I saw and three

20 youths were killed, three Albanian youths, and I knew them, and I felt

21 very sorry for them.

22 Q. Thank you. Were -- was there any firing or shooting from the

23 helicopters?

24 A. I couldn't see that because they flew in the direction of Shaptej,

25 and I don't want to lie here to tell you that they shot or not. I don't

Page 8208

1 know. I can't say something that I don't know.

2 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Following -- thank you. Following this

3 episode that you've told us about this afternoon when Mr. Otovic was shot

4 and the fighting that you've described, what did you and your family do?

5 A. We stayed in the house. At about 6.00 or 6 and a half in the

6 morning, I asked my family members what happened. I knew that Otovic was

7 killed, but I didn't know anything about those three young people. As I

8 said, I was in the hiding, so my wife and my sons told me that three

9 youths, and they told me the names, were killed at the school of Shaptej.

10 Q. Did you remain in Gllogjan?

11 A. Yes, I remained there.

12 Q. For how long?

13 A. Not for long, after the event when Otovic died. I can't give you

14 the exact date, however, but I know that not even a month passed before I

15 left. The KLA started to grow in numbers. One day I saw many of them,

16 and I left them. They beckoned to me. I wasn't wearing any uniforms. My

17 sons didn't wear any uniforms.

18 Q. Just, Mr. Jollaj, let's go back and try and deal with this a

19 little more carefully. You've told us about the episode where Mr. Otovic

20 was killed, you've told us about the fighting. Now, now, just think

21 back --

22 A. Yes, yes.

23 Q. -- after that you said you remained in Gllogjan. How long did you

24 stay in Gllogjan after Mr. Otovic was killed would you say?

25 A. For a while.

Page 8209

1 Q. Okay. Thank you. That's helpful. Now, try and think -- okay.

2 Thank you, that's helpful --

3 A. I'm not certain.

4 Q. All right. Was it a question of hours or days or weeks that you

5 stayed in Gllogjan after Mr. Otovic was killed?

6 A. Two or three weeks I think.

7 Q. Okay. And then where did you go?

8 A. I went to Gjakove where my wife was there in hospital for a month

9 and a half. She was in a critical condition. My sons and my father

10 remained there, and the -- my daughter-in-law.

11 Q. Okay. Slow it down. That's -- slow it down. Okay. You -- after

12 Mr. Otovic was killed, you said you stayed in Gllogjan for about two or

13 three weeks. Just hear -- listen to me. Okay. Just listen to me. You

14 were there for about two or three weeks, and then you went to Gjakove and

15 your wife was in hospital --

16 A. Yes, yes, I went to Gjakove --

17 Q. Did -- now, when you went to Gjakove, did you leave some --

18 A. -- my second son.

19 Q. Yes, thank you. When you went to --

20 A. I stayed with some in-laws. My wife's father was living there --

21 Q. All right --

22 A. -- and her brothers.

23 Q. Mr. Jollaj --

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jollaj, would you please answer the question,

25 then stop, not tell anything else unless specifically asked for by

Page 8210

1 Mr. Di Fazio. So please give brief answers and do not interrupt

2 Mr. Di Fazio so that he can finish his questions.

3 Please proceed.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

5 Q. Now, when you went to Gjakove, did any of your family members

6 remain behind in Gllogjan?

7 A. Yes, my father, my eldest son who was 23/24 years old, my

8 daughter, my daughter-in-law, and their two children. They remained in

9 the village. I had my livestock --

10 Q. Okay --

11 A. -- I had other house belongings, a car.

12 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Now, you went to Gjakove. How long did

13 you stay there?

14 A. I stayed there until the war was over, and then I returned from

15 Albania where I stayed with some acquaintances of mine. My son worked as

16 a private -- in a private company.

17 Q. Did you ever go back to Gllogjan?

18 A. Yes, yes. We returned with my wife and my son. We visited the

19 house, worked in the garden, and had my car repaired. I stayed there, I

20 went out, I took walks, and then I took my wife again for a medical

21 check-up.

22 Q. How long did you stay in Gllogjan when you came back?

23 A. I did not remain there. I stayed there for just one night and

24 then went back, because I had to take my wife back there.

25 Q. Take your wife back where exactly?

Page 8211

1 A. To the hospital.

2 Q. Okay. Thank you. Thank you --

3 A. I had to take her to the hospital.

4 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Did you -- after that, did you go back to

5 Gllogjan?

6 A. I only went once back there during the war. My second son also

7 went to that house, but he came back again. We were not working as

8 private operators anymore.

9 Q. All right.

10 A. We worked in the villages. We couldn't stay.

11 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: After Mr. Otovic was killed, did you

12 ever see Ramush Haradinaj?

13 A. After Otovic was killed, I can't remember, to be honest. I don't

14 think I saw him. Maybe he passed by with the army. I don't know, because

15 Ramush was heading the army.

16 Q. Yeah, okay. Mr. Jollaj, it's not in dispute that you left

17 Gllogjan. We know you left Gllogjan. Now, can you --

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. -- just listen to my question and listen carefully, listen

20 carefully, okay? Can you explain, please, to the Judges who are

21 listening to you why you left Gllogjan. Why? Why? What was your reason?

22 Why did you leave?

23 A. I left because of my wife's situation. She was in a critical

24 condition. Six people gave blood for her until she got her sight back. I

25 had to go to the hospital with her. And to speak the truth, I also was a

Page 8212

1 little afraid to remain because there were problems in the village. I was

2 afraid that I would be killed or something should happen to me.

3 Q. Okay. Can you tell the Trial Chamber why you were afraid that

4 something might happen to you. What was troubling you?

5 A. There is another reason. I was afraid that -- things were being

6 said in the village. Ramush, Ramush's father said things like I had

7 joined the Serbs, I had worked for the Serbs. It is true that I worked

8 for Serbs privately. I had to work to keep my family, to earn a living.

9 And I didn't pay attention whether the person I worked for was a Serb or

10 an Albanian, a Muslim, or a Catholic.

11 Q. Okay. Can you tell the Trial Chamber from whom you learnt that

12 this was being said about you, from whom? Who said that this -- these

13 words were being spoken about you?

14 A. These were said to me even before the war. I had problems with

15 some young people who said to me, You're keeping company with the Serbs.

16 These were things that had no sense. I was not paying attention to

17 politics --

18 Q. Okay. Thank you --

19 A. -- or anything else. I just wanted to work and keep my family

20 alive.

21 Q. The young people who said these things to you, were they young

22 people from the village or were they young people from elsewhere?

23 A. No, they were from my own village.

24 Q. Okay. Thank you.

25 A. They were friends. I could call them friends.

Page 8213

1 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Now, think back, did you hear that these

2 things were being said before or after the Serb policeman Otovic was

3 killed?

4 A. This thing -- these things were said even before. They said some

5 words, but I didn't pay attention to them, things like I was keeping

6 company with the Serbs. I was minding my own business trying to work and

7 earn a living for my family.

8 Q. Okay. And --

9 A. Because I grew up there together with them, in the same village.

10 Q. Thank you. And what about after the Serb policeman Otovic was

11 killed, were these things also said to you after he was killed?

12 A. Yes, things were mentioned, but these things made no sense to me.

13 Q. Okay. All right. Now, you've said that these words had something

14 to do with your leaving Gllogjan and your wife's illness had something to

15 do with leaving Gllogjan. Were those the only reasons you left Gllogjan

16 or are there any other reasons?

17 A. Well, there was my wife who was ill, but as I said these words

18 were said before. But however, I went about in the villages without any

19 problems before. I spent my whole life in the village. There was no

20 problem with my wife.

21 Q. Do your best and try and tell the Trial Chamber when was the last

22 time you ever saw or laid eyes on Ramush Haradinaj?

23 A. The last time -- well, I cannot give you an exact answer. I don't

24 know. I only remember that when they came out in the beginning, in

25 uniform, they all got together, and that was the time when I learned what

Page 8214

1 the KLA was. Because until then I didn't know anything or I hadn't seen

2 them. So it was at about 10.00 or 12.00 that day when I saw them

3 preparing themselves, preparing the positions, that's when I saw Ramush

4 for the last time. I don't think I saw him later.

5 [Prosecution counsel confer]


7 Q. Yes, thank you.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: I have no further questions.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.

10 Mr. Emmerson, are you ready to --

11 MR. EMMERSON: Would Your Honour give me one moment for an

12 in-court consultation with my client?


14 [Haradinaj Defence counsel and the accused Haradinaj confer]

15 MR. EMMERSON: Would Your Honour extend that courtesy to me for

16 one further moment to consult with co-counsel?

17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.

18 [Defence counsel confer]

19 MR. EMMERSON: I have no questions for this witness.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 Questioned by the Court:

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jollaj, I would have a few questions for you.

23 You told us that you were very close to Ljubica's house when you heard the

24 shots. Could you tell us whether you had passed Ljubica's house already

25 when you heard them or were you exactly where his house is or were you

Page 8215

1 just approaching where his house is?

2 A. I was approaching. I was close.

3 JUDGE ORIE: And could you tell us how close, another 10 metres?

4 Another 15 metres?

5 A. I can't tell you. I'm sorry. I'm not sure. There is a field

6 between the two houses and this's the road as well, so I don't know, 50

7 metres, not more than that.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you said you got off your bike once you heard

9 the shot or shots. Could you tell us whether you got off your bike before

10 you were at a point where Ljubica's house is?

11 A. I had left, or rather, I had gone past Ljubica's house for about

12 10, 15 metres, and between Ljubica's house and the main road that leads to

13 Gllogjan, that's where I was.

14 [Trial Chamber confers]

15 JUDGE ORIE: One more question for you. You earlier said that

16 Ramush Haradinaj came out of the house with a gun. Was that after you had

17 heard the shot?

18 A. This was when I was approaching Ramush's house. I saw the

19 policemen when they called, and Hilmi, Ramush's father, came out. And

20 immediately after Hilmi, Ramush came out with a gun, and he shot Otovic.

21 This is what I saw. I saw Otovic falling down, and immediately I tried to

22 leave. It was only 50 metres away, so the bullets were there. And as I

23 told you earlier, I ran towards the direction of Baballoq, I stopped at

24 the brook, and I joined the group of people who were trying to leave the

25 village, whole families, children, and women, and so on. And then the

Page 8216

1 army came and there were -- there was shooting everywhere --

2 JUDGE ORIE: How much time did it take you to get to the brook

3 where you said others were already?

4 A. There were people leaving, they left their houses, all of them --

5 JUDGE ORIE: One second. Could you please focus on my question,

6 that is: How much time did it take you when you got from your bike to get

7 to where you say -- you said you saw other people, how much time, one

8 minute, three minutes, so crossing the meadow?

9 A. I don't know, really, about ten minutes I would think. I went to

10 that small stream of water and got together with some people, and further

11 on there was the brook. There were many more people there, families,

12 whole families, trying to leave. I helped them to cross the brook, get on

13 the other side, carried their children. So I tried to help.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Now, did they tell you why they were all there when,

15 as far as I understand, it was only a couple of minutes before that you

16 heard one shot fired and where the other police forces had not yet come to

17 that place?

18 A. People had heard the shots from Ramush's house, and shots were

19 heard from other places in the villages -- in the village from the houses.

20 So whole families left immediately. Children, women were going through

21 the meadows, through the fields. The whole population tried to leave.

22 This happened very soon after the shots, and people were trying to go to

23 Baballoq, to Gramaqel, and other villages. Everybody was trying to get

24 their families out, to take them to Gjakove, wherever they could --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. I'd like to take you back to

Page 8217

1 a few things you said before, and I'll read slowly to you part of your

2 testimony of today.

3 You said: "It was Hilmi, Ramush's father, whom the policeman

4 asked something -- actually, I didn't hear what the policeman asked him

5 about. I only heard the shots."

6 You then continued: "Then from the distance I saw Hilmi, Ramush's

7 father, then after the fire I didn't see anything else. I saw Ramush with

8 a weapon coming out of the house, but I was afraid lest I was going to be

9 killed too, as I said."

10 Now, this suggests that you saw Ramush Haradinaj coming out of the

11 house after you heard the shots, or is that not correctly understood?

12 A. No. When the policemen went there to Ramush's house, and I saw

13 the policemen close to the gate, I saw Hilmi speaking to them. Hilmi went

14 inside and Ramush came out with the gun in his hand and fired, and I saw

15 Otovic falling down. I also recognised the other policeman Momo Milic,

16 and Momo Milic -- because there was some workers working there doing the

17 fence around the house. So Momo Milic took one of these workers and used

18 him as a shield to protect himself and went up to the car like that to get

19 into the car. And he notified the police, and then the police from

20 Irzniq, from Gjakove, and from Peje, from wherever, they all came. The

21 army came, too.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let me stop you again there. I'll read another

23 part of your statement to you -- of your testimony to you. You said:

24 "Hilmi, he didn't have a weapon, he came at the door to talk with the

25 policeman. About this I heard later, actually. I didn't hear that at

Page 8218

1 that moment. After Otovic died, I heard that."

2 What did you exactly hear and from whom?

3 A. Hilmi did not have a weapon when he came out and spoke to the

4 policemen, he was unarmed. Hilmi went in to call Ramush, for him to come

5 out and speak to the policemen --

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please again listen to my question. You

7 said that you heard -- you said: "About this I heard later, actually. I

8 didn't hear that at that moment. After Otovic died, I heard that."

9 My question is: What did you hear exactly after Otovic died, and

10 did you hear that from someone else?

11 A. After Otovic was killed - and I saw him being killed - the houses

12 around started to shoot as well -- people from the houses started to shoot

13 as well. There was no house from where there was no shooting. And at

14 that moment I decided to leave and go to Baballoq. There was no other way

15 for me. How could I stay there? As I already told you, Hilmi was not

16 armed. He went in to call Ramush to come out, and Ramush came out and he

17 was armed and he fired on Otovic. And for 10 or 15 minutes there was

18 shots from all over the village. I don't know how to explain this better

19 to you. Only if you were there yourselves and saw everything with your

20 own eyes.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Jollaj, I have no further questions to you.

23 Have the questions of the Bench raised any issue you would like

24 to --

25 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, they have.

Page 8219


2 Mr. Jollaj, Mr. Emmerson has one or more questions for you.

3 Further cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

4 MR. EMMERSON: I wonder if the registrar could help us, please, by

5 turning to the bundle of documents that are available to the registry in

6 Belgrade and to tab 20, which is an aerial photograph in colour of the

7 area around the Haradinaj compound. I can hand hard copies to the Trial

8 Chamber, please.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Is that the aerial photograph 1D020733.

10 MR. EMMERSON: I think not.

11 JUDGE ORIE: This is not.

12 MR. EMMERSON: This is a new aerial photograph, it's a Prosecution

13 document.

14 Can I first check with the registry, please, that that is a colour

15 photograph with a large building in the bottom centre of it. Perhaps the

16 witness could hold the photograph up to the screen.

17 THE REGISTRAR: [In Belgrade] Yes, that is a photograph.

18 Unfortunately, the photograph has no markings on it, no ERN numbers.

19 MR. EMMERSON: That's correct.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Could it be shown to the camera in Belgrade so that

21 we can verify that we are looking at the same ...

22 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: I guess I don't -- one second, please. Yes, that's

24 clear. Please proceed.

25 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.

Page 8220

1 So can the record please show that the photograph that the witness

2 has is the photograph that we have, and can that please be marked for

3 identification.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number ...

5 THE REGISTRAR: That would be D160, Your Honours.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


8 Q. Now, if you could just look, please, at that photograph closely

9 for a moment, please, Mr. Jollaj, you will see a main road running across

10 the photograph horizontally, or rather, diagonally from the top left to

11 halfway down the right-hand side. Perhaps the registrar could just assist

12 in identifying the road we're discussing. So it runs diagonally across

13 the top half of the photograph, from the top left to roughly halfway down

14 to the right-hand side. Do you see that road, Mr. Jollaj? What I'm

15 asking you to do at the moment is to orientate yourself on the photograph.

16 Do you see the road?

17 A. I can see it.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, that is the main road leading -- that is the main

19 road leading from Dubrave on the left --

20 A. Yes, I understand, the main road here. This is the main road. I

21 understand you. On the right, here, I can't see this very well.

22 Q. Very well. If you just follow my questions, if you would, for a

23 moment. Can you see a line of trees that runs diagonally up towards the

24 road from the left-hand side of the photograph? Do you see that line of

25 trees that runs from the left side of the photograph up diagonally towards

Page 8221

1 the road, do you see that? Can you just confirm that you identified the

2 line of trees for us, please, Mr. Jollaj?

3 A. Yes. This here is a tree-lined part on the right I think, when

4 you go towards Gramaqel and this is the brook, the waterway --

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, there seems to be some -- everyone is

6 pointing at a different matter I see on my screen.

7 MR. EMMERSON: Very well. Let's see if we can get

8 [indiscernible] --

9 JUDGE ORIE: Madam Registrar in Belgrade has pointed at the line

10 of trees I think you have in mind.

11 Madam Registrar, could you please again point to the same line of

12 trees as you did before and everyone can now follow it on the screen.

13 Yes, please, from the --

14 MR. EMMERSON: So running from the left-hand --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you could do it in front of the camera as

16 well. You pointed at which line of trees?


18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the line of trees, yes. Could you please

19 put it again in front of the witness and point that specific line of

20 trees.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The trees, yes.


23 Q. Now, if you see just between the road that we've looked at and the

24 line of trees, there is a white mark in a field. Can you see that white

25 mark? And perhaps the registrar could assist you there as well. There's

Page 8222

1 a white circular mark of what looks like a ruined building between the

2 line of trees and the road.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, if you again point at that in front of the

4 camera.

5 MR. EMMERSON: Correct.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please point at that for the witness, Madam

7 Registrar.


9 Q. Now, so that you understand the photograph, Mr. Jollaj, that white

10 mark that you're looking at there is the position where the Stojanovic

11 house used to stand. Do you recognise that, that position, as the

12 position where the Stojanovic house was?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, pausing there for a moment, is that where you

15 were when you heard the shots along the road adjacent to that spot there?

16 A. Yes, I was nearby.

17 Q. Thank you. Now, if you look at the large building in the centre

18 of the photograph, that is the Haradinaj family compound. So it's the

19 largest building in the foreground, and don't be misled by it because it's

20 bigger now in this photograph than it was at the time. Yes?

21 A. This is Smajl Haradinaj's house maybe --

22 Q. No, the large --

23 A. Maybe Ramush's uncle's house. One belongs to Haxhibeka, he's also

24 from Haradinaj family, and one belong's to Smajl Haradinaj's.

25 Q. Can you see the large building in the centre of the photograph

Page 8223

1 just below halfway up, there's a large building with a white wall running

2 across the middle of it. Can you see that building?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Now, the upper half of that building was present in 1998, I

5 suggest, yes, and that was Hilmi Haradinaj's --

6 A. Yes, it was, it was.

7 Q. And that was Hilmi Haradinaj's house?

8 A. Yes, Haradinaj.

9 Q. So that we're clear, when you heard the shots, do you say that

10 from where you were you could see where Mr. Otovic was standing at the

11 time that the shots were fired?

12 A. I passed on to the left and left a little -- went away a little

13 from the place where I was standing, and I went to this hiding place.

14 Then I went closer to Baballoq.

15 Q. Yes, it's very important, Mr. Jollaj, that we separate out what

16 you were told later on by people from what you actually saw at the time.

17 And I'm asking you about the time when you heard the shots. And you've

18 told us at the time when you heard the shots you were on the road adjacent

19 to where the Stojanovics' house is. And I'm asking you: Could you see

20 where it was that Mr. Otovic fell, could you see where he fell? Did you

21 actually see him fall with your own eyes?

22 A. I didn't see Otovic falling down because I was too scared. I

23 tried to run away as fast as I could because, as I said, I was holding the

24 bicycle and then I had to drop the bicycle. And the police were coming,

25 and I was very close to the place where the event had taken place.

Page 8224

1 It's -- the house is about 50 metres away from the road, so I was scared.

2 Q. I'm sure we all understand that you were scared and that maybe you

3 didn't want to look, but what I want to be clear about is you didn't see

4 Mr. Otovic fall with your own eyes. Did you ever see his body in the

5 roadway or did you not see that either?

6 A. I didn't see the actual place where he fell, I didn't, I couldn't

7 see that. I couldn't even look in that direction. I was -- to tell you

8 the truth, I was very scared. I just heard the shot and tried to flee, to

9 save myself.

10 Q. You've told us that you thought you saw Ramush with a gun, but can

11 I be clear --

12 A. Ramush was with a weapon in his hand, that is true.

13 Q. And you saw that, did you, from the Stojanovics' house?

14 A. Yes, when I passed the house of Stojanovic. It was a canal with

15 water running by, and you -- that water divided Ramush's plot from

16 Stojanovics' house and I saw him when he shot and then I left immediately

17 and didn't see any further than that. I wanted to escape.

18 Q. I'm sure we understand. But as you walked past you didn't notice

19 where Mr. Otovic was at that time?

20 A. No, no. I was passing. I wasn't interested in following up what

21 happened. I just wanted to flee. I was -- I wasn't interested at all in

22 that.

23 Q. So does it come to this, you saw someone you thought was

24 Ramush Haradinaj with a gun, and you heard some shots, and then you ran?

25 A. Yes, I ran.

Page 8225

1 Q. Now, just one other matter briefly, if I may, with you on this

2 topic.

3 A. Yes, you're welcome.

4 Q. The -- do you see where the main road crosses or joins, rather --

5 let me put the question again. Do you see where the main road that we've

6 been discussing that you were on joins the road towards the Haradinajs'

7 house? Do you see that, the intersection on the plan?

8 A. Yes, yes.

9 Q. And if I tell you that Mr. Otovic's body was recorded as having

10 been found on the main road itself, can you help us as to where it was

11 you --

12 A. He was not on the main road when he was killed. He was near the

13 gate of Ramush's house 10 or 15 metres away from the door, from the gate,

14 at least it's approximately that distance. I didn't measure it. After

15 what happened, I told you I didn't look in that direction anymore. I

16 don't know what happened after that. I only know that there was a lot of

17 shooting going on. I just wanted to flee as fast as I could.

18 Q. Mr. Jollaj, you drew a plan of this incident when you were

19 interviewed by the Prosecution in August 2002, and you marked a place

20 where you said Otovic was killed as being on the main road. Is it --

21 A. I did the drawing myself and I can draw it even today, but it is

22 not a main road. The main road that goes to Gllogjan from Irzniq -- from

23 Irzniq to Gllogjan, and from Gllogjan to Gramaqel, this road -- there is a

24 deviation in -- from this road in the direction of Ramush's house, and

25 it's rather long stretch of road. But he was not killed on the main road

Page 8226

1 that goes directly to Gramaqel, but in that stretch of road that goes in

2 the direction of Ramush's house. I did the drawing myself.

3 Q. Yes. Well, we obviously have a record of the statement that you

4 made and the drawing that you did, and I'm not going to try to go through

5 the pictures with you now, but I'm suggesting to you, Mr. Jollaj, what you

6 drew in 2002 was a marking in which you said that Mr. Otovic had died on

7 that road, the main road, opposite the entrance to the Haradinaj home,

8 which is indeed where he is recorded as having been found on the police

9 report.

10 A. Maybe -- I didn't draw it very well because I am not a professor

11 of drawing. It is an approximate drawing. I am an illiterate man. Just

12 to give you an idea of what happened, to help you, this is why I did it,

13 but he was not killed on the main road.

14 Q. When you saw the man that you thought was Ramush Haradinaj with a

15 gun, were you still at the Stojanovics' house at that time, or rather,

16 adjacent to the Stojanovics' house?

17 A. I was not at his house but very close to his house.

18 Q. Yes. If I give you an indication that there's a distance of

19 approximately 175 metres from the position of the Stojanovic property to

20 the position of the Haradinaj property, does that help you at all as to

21 how far away you were?

22 A. I left Stojanovics' house. I showed you before. As to how many

23 metres the distance is from Ramush's house or even Ljubica's house from

24 Ramush's, I couldn't give you an accurate figure. Maybe 350 --

25 THE INTERPRETER: Correction.

Page 8227

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- 150 or so, I can't tell for sure,

2 even closer maybe, Ramush's house.

3 MR. EMMERSON: Would Your Honour just give me a moment, please.

4 [Defence counsel confer]


6 Q. Can you help us, Mr. Jollaj, on this photograph, looking at the

7 picture again, where was it that you fled into the fields towards the

8 brook? Looking at the photograph, either describe it to us or mark it on

9 the picture if you -- if that's easier. Which was the direction you took

10 to flee across the fields and into the brook?

11 A. I showed you. I left on the left. If you come from Gramaqel to

12 enter Gllogjan, I left on -- in the left direction.

13 Q. Can you look at the photograph, please, and identify for us,

14 perhaps mark it with a pen, where it was you turned off the road towards

15 the brook.

16 A. If you ask me how many metres I was away from Ramush's house and

17 Stojanovics' house, I couldn't be very accurate. I don't want to lie to

18 you. I was in between Stojanovics' and Haradinajs' house. That is where

19 I was, and when I was there I took the left direction if you come from

20 Baballoq village --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Correction, towards Baballoq village.

22 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Thank you.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Just --

25 Further examination by MR. DI FAZIO:

Page 8228

1 Q. Mr. Jollaj, I've just got a have you few questions. Defence

2 counsel have said to you that you were adjacent to the Stojanovics' house.

3 Thinking back, can you try and tell the Trial Chamber a little more

4 accurately how close you were to the Stojanovic's house when you saw these

5 events. Were you right next to it, close to it, or what?

6 A. I had just passed that house and some coming near Ramush's house.

7 Stojanovics' house is further down where I was. There is a brook or a

8 waterway there that flows in the middle of the village.

9 Q. All right.

10 A. It's used for irrigation, you know, so it's kind of guiding line

11 between Stojanovic and Haradinajs' house, I was in the middle of these two

12 houses. And then I took the left direction in the direction of Baballoq.

13 And then, as I said, we rested for a while in that place with the other

14 families and then we left that place.

15 Q. And just one last question. Okay. You've told us that you were

16 between the two houses in the middle of these two houses. Can you tell

17 the Trial Chamber if you had walked --

18 A. Yes, that's correct, I was in between the two houses.

19 Q. All right --

20 A. -- the Stojanovic house --

21 Q. Wait for the question --

22 A. -- and the Haradinajs' house.

23 Q. Just wait for it and then you'll know what the question is.

24 A. I apologise.

25 Q. That's all right. Just wait for it. You said you were between

Page 8229

1 the Stojanovic -- and just wait for it.

2 A. It's between.

3 Q. Thank you. All right. Now, can you tell us, can you tell the

4 Trial Chamber if -- where you were in relation to that line of trees that

5 you can see in the photograph. Had you gone past the line of trees or

6 were you before it when you saw the events concerning Mr. Otovic?

7 A. There was -- there were some lines here like fences. There were

8 some trees a little bit further away. It was a fence there. There wasn't

9 any road. A little bit further there were the trees, but now the layout

10 has changed. It's not like it was before. There were fences, there were

11 trees, now I don't see -- hedges, so it's difficult for me now to figure

12 out exactly where I was.

13 Q. When you saw the events involving whatever it was that you saw

14 involving Mr. Otovic, were there trees between you and Mr. Otovic?

15 A. Yes, there were. There were trees in front of Ramush's house,

16 it's a kind of triangle. It's a main tree -- the main road, then it's

17 triangle land, then the road. Here is Ramush's uncle and here is Ramush's

18 house, and that is this place with trees and fence that surrounds that

19 area, that land.

20 Q. Did trees block your view?

21 A. Yes, you couldn't see very well. They prevented me from looking

22 properly. There was a fence, as I said, and the trees.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If there are no further questions, then, Mr. Jollaj,

25 this concludes your testimony. I would like to thank you very much for

Page 8230

1 coming to where you are now and to answer all the questions that have been

2 put to you by the parties and by the Bench. I hope that you'll be soon

3 home again, safe with your family.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll now --

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you what I know; what is not

7 true, I cannot say.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes --

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What I saw with my own eyes, and I

10 know I told you.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for -- thank you for that, Mr. --

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you all.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that, Mr. Jollaj.

14 We will have a break now and after the break we'll continue with

15 videolink with the next witness. We'll have a break until ten minutes to

16 6.00.

17 [The witness withdrew via videolink]

18 --- Recess taken at 5.29 p.m.

19 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Who's going to deal with the next witness?

21 MS. GUSTAFSON: I will be, Your Honour.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.

23 Ms. Gustafson, I'd like to do the same as before, turn into closed

24 session, we are already, as a matter of fact -- or are we not,

25 Mr. Registrar? We are in open session, although on my screen it says

Page 8231

1 private or closed session. We first then before we go into the videolink

2 we turn into closed session.

3 [Closed session]

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8232











11 Pages 8232-8238 redacted. Closed session.















Page 8239

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 [Open session]

6 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. The Chamber has decided to

8 grant protective measures in respect of Witness 65, that is face

9 distortion, voice distortion, and pseudonym, the reasons to follow. We

10 need a 15-minutes' adjournment in order to prepare for the voice

11 distortion. We resume at 25 minutes to 7.00.

12 --- Break taken at 6.20 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 6.34 p.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 65, you'll now be examined first by

15 Ms. Gustafson.

16 Ms. Gustafson, please proceed.

17 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour. Could we go into private

18 session to identify the witness?


20 [Private session]

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8240











11 Page 8240 redacted. Private session.















Page 8241

1 [Open session]

2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

4 Witness 65, just for you to know, we are in open session; that is,

5 the content of your testimony can be heard but your face still cannot be

6 seen. We are not using your name, and your voice cannot be heard. So

7 please keep in mind if you are referring to family members that you talk

8 about my brother or my cousin or my village without mentioning names.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not even the village?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Not even the village. If you say "my village," we

11 know what village it is.

12 Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

13 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Q. Witness 65, what was your occupation in 1998 when you were living

15 in your village?

16 A. Could you repeat that, please.

17 Q. Yes. What did you do for a living?

18 A. Profession? I worked privately.

19 Q. And what did you do?

20 A. Private odd jobs here and there.

21 Q. So did you work for other families in the village and around the

22 village?

23 A. I worked for my own family.

24 Q. And did you also work for other families in the village?

25 A. Other families? I don't understand you.

Page 8242

1 Q. For example, did you do odd jobs for other people, other people

2 that weren't in your family? Did you work on other people's land?

3 A. Yes, yes, I did.

4 Q. Thank you. And what were the ethnicities of the people that you

5 worked for, the people that you did jobs for, and the people whose land

6 you worked on?

7 A. There were Albanians, Serbs.

8 Q. Thank you. And --

9 A. We lived together, side by side.

10 Q. Thank you. And is that the same for your father and your brother,

11 did they also do the same type of work as you for the same -- different

12 families?

13 A. Yes, they did.

14 Q. Now, did you and your family leave your village sometime in 1998?

15 Did you move from your village?

16 A. We did. We left the village, all of us, my brother, father,

17 and -- all of us.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. We -- when the war broke out.

20 Q. And when was that? When did you and your family leave your

21 village? If you can't remember the date, just remember as best you can

22 the month or the season.

23 A. It was spring-time when it was the beginning of the war.

24 Q. Thank you. And on the day that you left your village, what time

25 of day was it when you left? Was it morning? Noon? Afternoon? Evening?

Page 8243

1 Night-time? What time of day was it?

2 A. It was around 1.00 or 2.00. To tell you the truth, we didn't --

3 it didn't even occur to us to look at the time.

4 Q. Do you mean 1.00 or 2.00 in the afternoon or 1.00 or 2.00 in the

5 morning?

6 A. In the afternoon.

7 Q. And on that day that you left your village at 1.00 or 2.00 in the

8 afternoon, did anything happen in your village on that morning before you

9 left?

10 A. Yes, it did, it did. Some Albanians came there. They told my

11 father, Where are your sons? Why aren't you asking your sons to wear

12 uniforms?

13 Q. Now, is this something you saw and heard yourself or is this

14 something your father told you about?

15 A. My father told me. I wasn't there. I was working because I had

16 to win the bread of my -- for my family. And then we left the village.

17 We went to another village, to another place not far from the actual

18 village one or two hours away.

19 Q. Thank you. And when your father told you that some Albanians came

20 and asked him why his sons weren't wearing uniforms, did he tell you what

21 kind of uniforms?

22 A. To wear Albanian uniforms.

23 Q. Uniforms of some force, some organisation?

24 A. Of the KLA. They didn't have uniforms. They were civilians,

25 those who came to our house. This is what my father told me.

Page 8244

1 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, there's some confusion about who was

2 wearing uniforms and the question about not wearing uniforms. Perhaps we

3 could clarify that.

4 Your father told you that those who came asked why his sons were

5 not wearing uniforms. What kind of uniforms did they expect the sons of

6 your father to wear?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They said, Why don't you ask your

8 sons to join?

9 JUDGE ORIE: To join what?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To join them.

11 JUDGE ORIE: And who are "them"?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Albanians.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, but any specific -- any specific force? I mean

14 if you say, Why don't you join them, that's -- join who exactly?

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Albanians.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And --

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My father told them, I cannot ask my

18 sons to join because otherwise I will be left only with two girls.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now you said to join the Albanians. Did you,

20 since they were talking about uniforms, did your father understand this as

21 far as he told you that you should join an armed -- an Albanian armed

22 force?

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Do you know any name of such an armed force or did

25 your father tell you about any name of such an armed force which you were

Page 8245

1 suggested to join?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were from Gllogjan. They -- he

3 didn't know them. He said they are from Gllogjan.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I asked whether the armed force -- you were --

5 it was suggested that you would join and wear uniforms, uniforms of what

6 exactly?

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The liberation army of Albanians,

8 the KLA for short.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

12 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, just so that I'm clear and perhaps I

13 misunderstood something. As I understood this gentleman's testimony on

14 line 5, the people who came were not wearing uniforms and they were

15 civilians I'm just trying to --

16 JUDGE ORIE: That's what he said --

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm just trying to -- because the word "they" was

18 used a couple of times, and I thought that I might be -- kind of be

19 confused that the individuals who were having this discussion with his

20 father were civilians. I just wanted to make sure that I -- that I hadn't

21 misread the transcript.

22 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I understood.

23 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay.

24 JUDGE ORIE: If Ms. Gustafson wants to give this a follow-up then

25 of course it's up to her.

Page 8246

1 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'm happy with the answers. I'll just move on.

2 Q. At this point when your father told you about this conversation,

3 did you belong to the KLA?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And your brother?

6 A. No, we left, we left the village. We left the house immediately,

7 on the same day, my brother, my mother, the children, my sisters were

8 married.

9 Q. Thank you. Thank you. And before the time that you left your

10 village, had you ever belonged to the KLA?

11 A. No.

12 Q. And what about your brother, had he ever belonged to the KLA

13 before that date?

14 A. No, no, no.

15 Q. And what about your cousin, did he ever belong to the KLA before

16 that date?

17 A. No, no, none of us belonged to the KLA. We didn't side with

18 anyone. We simply worked for our daily bread.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could we move into private session, Your Honour?

21 [Private session]

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8247











11 Page 8247 redacted. Private session.















Page 8248

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 [Open session]

24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

Page 8249

1 Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.


3 Q. You said they came and took your brother. Do you remember the

4 date on which your brother was taken?

5 A. It was the 4th of July.

6 Q. The 4th of July, 1998?

7 A. I don't know. My father told me the date. They took him, I don't

8 know where to. I looked for him high and low, but I couldn't find him.

9 Q. Thank you. And it was the 4th of July. What time of day was it

10 when they came and took your brother? Was it morning? Afternoon?

11 Evening? What time of day?

12 A. It was before -- around 12.00 or before 12.00, before midday. I

13 didn't have a watch. I was in the yard, and I had a fruit in my hand.

14 Q. Thank you. And you were in the yard, it was 12.00, around midday.

15 Was your brother in the yard with you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And --

18 A. My brother was in the street. It was on a higher place. They

19 took him. We were eating and they came and asked me about my cousin,

20 asking me where he was, and I retorted I didn't know, and then they beat

21 me --

22 Q. Thank you --

23 A. -- and when they beat me -- can I continue?

24 Q. I know this is difficult, but I'd really like you to just answer

25 my questions one at a time and wait for my next question before you answer

Page 8250

1 and make your questions as brief and direct -- make your answers as brief

2 and direct as possible. All right? Now, you said --

3 A. Okay. We can repeat it.

4 Q. I asked you if your brother was in the yard and you said yes, and

5 then you said my brother was in the street. Where was your brother when

6 the people came and took him?

7 A. There, (redacted), near me. He went out in the street. I was

8 eating with other members. He went out --

9 Q. Thank you --

10 A. -- I apologise. He went to a shop to get some cigarettes.

11 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

13 MS. GUSTAFSON: Can we go into private session briefly, Your

14 Honour.

15 [Private session]

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 8251

1 (redacted)

2 [Open session]

3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.


6 Q. Now, you said your brother had gone out into the street. Did he

7 come back to the yard where you were?

8 A. No, no. They took him away when he was outside, in the street.

9 Q. And --

10 A. I went out and said to them, Don't take away my brother.

11 Q. So was this in the street immediately outside the yard that you

12 were in?

13 A. It wasn't very far from where I was. When I went out I told them

14 not to take my brother away. They put him in a car and then they came

15 back to the yard where I was and they start -- gave me a good beating and

16 they pushed my wife and swore at her.

17 Q. Did you see the people approach who came and took your brother?

18 A. Yes, yes, I saw them and I remember it very well.

19 Q. Did they approach in vehicles or on foot?

20 A. They left the vehicles in the street, and they were there with my

21 brother. Then they came to where I was. When they beat me, I got up on

22 my feet again.

23 Q. How many vehicles and how many people came?

24 A. I didn't know all of them, I didn't count them, but I know there

25 were many of them, some seven or eight cars I would say. One was wearing

Page 8252

1 black clothes, a black hood on his face. He asked me, (redacted)

2 And I answered, I don't know -- I said I don't know him -- in fact, I

3 didn't say I didn't know him, but I said I don't know where he is.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Ms. Gustafson, I'm looking at the clock.

6 MS. GUSTAFSON: This is as good a time as any.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?

8 MS. GUSTAFSON: I just said it's as good a time as any to break.


10 Witness 65, we will adjourn for the day. It's 7.00. We'll

11 continue tomorrow morning at 9.00. We'd like to see you back then. And I

12 would like to instruct you that you should not speak with anyone about the

13 testimony you have given until now and the testimony you're still about to

14 give tomorrow.

15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

16 JUDGE ORIE: We stand adjourned.

17 Mr. Registrar, what courtroom are we in tomorrow, are we in III

18 or ...

19 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

20 JUDGE ORIE: We adjourn until tomorrow morning, 9.00, Courtroom

21 III, that's the 11th of September.

22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,

23 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day of

24 September, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.