Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9920

1 Tuesday, 30 October 2007

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to

7 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor

8 versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10 Before we start, the Chamber would like to deliver a decision;

11 that is, the decision on the Prosecution's 10th motion for testimony via

12 video-conference link.

13 On the 29th of October, 2007, the Prosecution filed its motion for

14 testimony via video-conference link and for trial-related protective

15 measures for a witness who, until then, had been the subject of a Rule 92

16 bis application. The application for protective measures will be the

17 subject of a separate decision by the Chamber. As the decision on this

18 has not yet been taken, the Chamber will not refer to the witness by name.

19 As for the video-conference link, the Prosecution argues that the

20 witness is of advanced age and has health problems, including a weak

21 heart. The witness states that exposure to stress would be dangerous for

22 him and that his age and health condition do not allow him to travel long

23 distances. The Defence does not oppose the application.

24 While the Prosecution has not provided any medical documentation

25 in support of its application, the Chamber finds that, based on the

Page 9921

1 information provided, a journey to The Hague to give testimony would

2 involve discomfort and health risks for the witness. It also finds the

3 expected testimony to be sufficiently important and the mode of delivery

4 of the testimony to be compatible with the accused's right to confront the

5 witness. The Chamber therefore finds that it is in the interests of

6 justice to hear the witness via video-conference link. The motion is

7 therefore granted.

8 This concludes the Chamber's decision.

9 Mr. Emmerson.

10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I wonder if I just might briefly before the

11 next witness is brought in raise one or two matters which have previously

12 been raised and during the course of procedural argument just prior to the

13 time when the witness was last due to be called.

14 There is, as I understand it, no application for protective

15 measures in respect of this witness, and so I shall use his name. His

16 name is Pjeter Shala, and as Your Honours know, he is named in the

17 indictment as a member, alleged, of the joint criminal enterprise that the

18 Prosecution alleges here. So as, in effect, to bring him within alleged

19 responsibility for all crimes alleged on the indictment, as well as

20 specific allegations of participation, which he in suspect interviews in

21 the past has denied.

22 The position as we understand it is as follows: The Prosecution

23 currently contends that Mr. Shala directly participated in two crimes

24 alleged on the indictment; that is to say -- or two pairs of crimes; that

25 is to say, counts 33 and 34, the alleged abduction of (redacted) and

Page 9922

1 another, and one of the sub-counts in count 22, the alleged abduction and

2 murder of Zdravko Radunovic, both of which, as I indicated a moment ago,

3 the witness denied in suspect interviews conducted first in 2005 and then

4 by Mr. Di Fazio as a suspect interview in 2007, in May of this year.

5 I raised a number of issues arising out of this slightly unusual

6 situation in argument at an earlier stage, and I have, purely for

7 convenience, provided the Chamber with a paper copy of an extract from the

8 transcript.

9 The first question which arises is the question of caution in

10 respect of a witness who is being called by the Prosecution when it is

11 alleged that he's a member of the JCE and indeed when he denies the

12 allegations that the Prosecution contend he is responsible for.

13 And if I could just briefly remind the Trial Chamber of the

14 position that was then thought to be appropriate, at page 4585, line 4 of

15 the transcript. If I could, without -- I think -- I think -- do I

16 understand the Trial Chamber has a copy of the document in front?

17 And simply the -- the first and second sentence is in the remarks

18 listed at line 4 by Your Honour, Judge Orie.

19 Now, the position is, as I indicated a moment ago, not only was

20 Mr. Shala treated as a suspect in 2005 but this is not a situation where,

21 to use Your Honour's words, the suspicion has been clearly removed,

22 because, as I indicated in 2007, the suspect interview provisions and

23 caution were administered in relation to him by Mr. Di Fazio as well, and

24 it remains the Prosecution case that despite his denials he is responsible

25 for those alleged crimes.

Page 9923

1 So that -- that's the first issue that I wanted to raise.

2 The second relates to what the appropriate content of the caution

3 should be, and in particular, whether or not it is clear and has been

4 clear to this witness what it is that's alleged against him.

5 I raise this at page 4588 of the transcript, where I sought

6 further and better particulars of the indictment and pre-trial brief and

7 specifically a request for clarification of exactly what it was that

8 then - that is, the 22nd of May - the Prosecution were alleging

9 Mr. Shala's participation to be. And that application was resolved by

10 agreement with Mr. Re kindly agreeing to provide that information in

11 writing by letter.

12 The letter that he wrote on the same day is at tab 22 -- I'm

13 sorry, is at tab 2 of the bundle and indicates that the allegations

14 against Mr. Shala referred to counts 33 and 34, and in support of that, to

15 paragraphs 27 and 107 of the revised second amended indictment and

16 paragraphs 32 to 34 and 151 of the pre-trial brief. Each of those

17 citations relates to counts 33 and 34, the alleged abduction of (redacted)

18 (redacted); in other words, there was no mention in that letter of the

19 allegation of murder, perhaps one might think the more serious of the two,

20 that is made by the Prosecution in respect of Zdravko Radunovic in counts

21 21 and 22.

22 Seeing that, I wrote to Mr. Re the following day in the terms of

23 the e-mail at tab 3 of the bundle. And as far as relevance, it is the

24 second paragraph of that letter that is of significance, where I

25 communicate my reading of that letter from Mr. Re as an indication that

Page 9924

1 the passages referred to represent the entirety of the criminal conduct

2 alleged against Mr. Shala and seeking immediate correction if that

3 assumption were wrong, and no correction was given.

4 So in those circumstances, it would appear that as at the 22nd of

5 May, the position taken by the Prosecution was that Mr. Shala was, despite

6 his denials, guilty of the allegation in counts 33 and 34, but that it was

7 not then being contended that he was guilty of the murder alleged in

8 counts 21 and 22. That is, as we understand it now, being alleged by the

9 Prosecution.

10 And in our submission, that certainly raises an issue for the

11 Trial Chamber to consider as regards, first of all, the content of the

12 caution; and secondly, the question of whether or not the effect of the

13 caution needs to be explained to Mr. Shala by independent legal advice.

14 I say that because, as I understand it, the way the Prosecution

15 proposes to deal with this witness is not to elicit from him the testimony

16 that consists of denials to the specific allegations that are made.

17 Now, of course, there are two -- two dimensions to that. The

18 first is that in any event the allegation against him is of all counts in

19 the indictment as a member of a joint criminal enterprise; and secondly,

20 that the Prosecution does, for example, just by way of illustration,

21 propose to elicit from this witness his presence at the time and place of

22 the alleged abduction of Zdravko Radunovic. So the fact that Mr. Di Fazio

23 takes the position that he won't seek to ask specific questions in order

24 to elicit the witness's denial to the particular acts of participation

25 that the Prosecution now alleges against him, in our submission, doesn't

Page 9925

1 obviate the need for consideration, and both of caution and of the

2 position that the witness may find himself in answering questions without

3 the nature of the allegations the Prosecution makes being properly

4 explained to him and having had the opportunity to take advice in respect

5 of it.

6 So I thought it only right, given the fact that the matter has

7 been raised already on the transcript, to return to it and put those

8 matters before the Trial Chamber.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

10 Mr. Guy-Smith.

11 MR. GUY-SMITH: I join in the submissions. I have nothing further

12 to add at this time.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

14 MR. HARVEY: I take the same position, Your Honours.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please --

17 JUDGE ORIE: Do you need to respond?

18 MR. DI FAZIO: It's not entirely clear to me what the Defence are

19 inviting you to do.

20 It seems to be that they would like you to provide or give the

21 witness an opportunity to take legal advice, and I gather that they would

22 like you to provide the witness with a caution - perhaps if I may phrase

23 it in this way, in general terms - before he testifies.

24 My submission is that under the Rules, in particular, Rule 90(E),

25 you should not administer any caution as and up until the point in his

Page 9926

1 testimony where he starts to say something that may incriminate him.

2 There's just no call for it up until that point.

3 And therefore, that's the way the Prosecution -- the Prosecution

4 would invite you to -- to deal with this particular issue.

5 The -- Mr. Emmerson is right in the sense that I don't propose to

6 put questions to the witness about those specific incidents in those

7 counts, the counts relating to the witness who was abducted and the other

8 count relating to the Serbian policeman. I don't think that precludes me

9 from asking the witness questions about his location and what he was doing

10 at the time of either of those incidents without a caution being

11 administered. It's only if I ask him questions that might invite an

12 answer indicating direct involvement or involvement in those particular

13 crimes that the -- the question of a -- of a -- of a caution might arise.

14 The Rule 90(E) says: "A witness may object to the making of a

15 statement which might tend to incriminate him" and that you can then

16 compel the witness to answer that question -- that question and that the

17 testimony compelled in that way can't be used against him. It calls for

18 no general warning or administration of a caution prior to the witness

19 testifying or a warning to be given at the beginning of his testimony so

20 that the witness himself doesn't stumble into the making of any particular

21 incriminating -- self-incriminating statement.

22 Furthermore, the Trial Chamber is in a good position to be able to

23 observe that the rights that accrue to the witness under 90(E), are well

24 observed because you know the facts in this case and you know if he was

25 going be led into an area where he -- he might reasonably expect to want

Page 9927

1 to object himself to answering the question.

2 So, essentially, the position is you should not administer a

3 caution up until the time that it's clearly called for and up until the

4 time that the witness is being invited to say something which may in fact

5 incriminate him. Until he says -- until he covers the material in those

6 two particular counts, it's the Prosecution's submission that that won't

7 occur, won't give rise to that necessity.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

9 Mr. Emmerson.

10 MR. EMMERSON: Just --

11 JUDGE ORIE: Briefly, please.

12 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Very briefly, if I may.

13 First of all, what is unusual about the position of this

14 individual, as opposed to witnesses in general, is his position as a named

15 member of the JCE.

16 Secondly, the issue of what may tend to incriminate in the context

17 of an allegation of membership of the JCE, is, in our submission, not

18 something which is easily discernible by the witness without knowing

19 exactly what it is that's alleged against him. And being in a position to

20 consider his position with advice. But I -- I made the submissions that

21 we wish to make and put before the Trial Chamber.


23 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I only have one brief addition, which is:

24 What is the harm in -- in cautioning the man when he's in as delicate a

25 legal position as he is?

Page 9928

1 MR. DI FAZIO: If I may just answer that --

2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, briefly.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: -- point. The suggestion that he's in a delicate

4 legal position is, in the Prosecution's submission, not strictly correct.

5 As we said, it's -- it's going to be easily identifiable for you to --

6 to -- to see when he's -- if I were to stray into an area that might give

7 rise to self-incriminating statements. So it's not -- not a delicate

8 position.

9 And the harm is that it's going to cause the -- the witness

10 considerable concern and apprehension and may take -- colour the manner

11 which he gives evidence. He should be able to testify as freely as he

12 can. And if he reaches the point where he is being led into making

13 self-incriminatory statements, then -- then and only then, the protections

14 that arise under 90(E) should activate.

15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. One additional question to both parties: Does

16 it play any role that the time to bring any new indictments against

17 persons has expired and that therefore there's no risk of further being

18 prosecuted before this Tribunal?

19 MR. EMMERSON: One is in a rather odd position, because obviously

20 we don't represent Mr. Shala and so one is having to put oneself into the

21 position, so to speak, of the hypothetical lawyer advising him. But in

22 our submission the answer to that question would be no, because plainly

23 were he to be examined by Mr. Di Fazio to put himself in a position where

24 he was both present at the time and place of the commission allegedly of a

25 particular crime in the testimony that he gives in this court, then in the

Page 9929

1 absence of greater examination legally as to the position, there would

2 appear to be no bar to that testimony being used as the basis for

3 prosecution in another jurisdiction.


5 Mr. Di Fazio, Mr. Guy-Smith, Mr. Harvey?

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: Not only prosecution but any other collateral

7 proceedings that may directly affect him, such as representations with

8 regard to asylum applications or refugee applications.


10 Mr. Harvey.

11 MR. HARVEY: Agreed.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honour --

13 JUDGE ORIE: But one question, then: Is the right to remain

14 silent, is that given in order to protect the witness in his civil or

15 administrative dealings elsewhere, or is that the purpose of -- the right

16 to remain silent --

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: As a general proposition obviously it's not. What

18 we're dealing with is the privilege against self-incrimination and

19 compelled testimony in the absence of knowing an intelligent waiver there

20 of. I think the difficulty is -- and really as has been defined already

21 by Mr. Emmerson, is that you have a gentleman who's in a situation who has

22 potential criminal liability, whether it be in this Tribunal or it be

23 somewhere else, because the kinds of crimes that are being discussed are

24 crimes that could be prosecuted in other jurisdictions. And quite

25 frankly, I think for purposes of -- of -- really -- and once again,

Page 9930

1 he's -- as Mr. Emmerson's saying - and I say the same thing - he's not my

2 client, but with regard to the protection of any individual and the

3 integrity of the proceedings, I think it's pretty important that a witness

4 situated as he is, at least has some understanding of what the potential

5 of his testimony could be.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, any need?

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Just -- just to say this, if Your Honours please:

8 In reply to the question of does the fact of this institution or

9 proceeding with other indictments affect the operation of Rule 90(E),

10 without taking instructions and without an opportunity to research the

11 matter, it would not be appropriate for me to comment upon that, and I

12 decline to do so.

13 I -- all I can say -- all I can do is -- just another observation

14 is that the right to silence is somewhat mitigated in that Rule because it

15 says that testimony is compellable -- you can compel the witness to

16 answer. So it's not an absolute right. It appears not to be an absolute

17 right. It's just that such testimony can't be used against him in -- in

18 subsequent prosecution.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that observation.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will withdraw, likely very limited -- a

22 very limited time, to discuss how to proceed. The parties are expected to

23 remain on stand-by.

24 --- Break taken at 2.47 p.m.

25 --- On resuming at 3.03 p.m.

Page 9931

1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, do you consider the witness to be

2 called, Pjeter Shala, still to be a suspect for the purposes of the Office

3 of the Prosecution?

4 [Prosecution counsel confer]

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. If he was to be interviewed again, he

6 would -- the Rules would kick in; he would be interviewed as a suspect.

7 And that's what happened in -- earlier this year, when I conducted an

8 interview with him.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. To interview someone as a suspect, doesn't that

10 mean that you do that in order to prepare possible prosecution of that

11 person?

12 [Prosecution counsel confer]

13 MR. DI FAZIO: The Rules, if Your Honours please, have a regime

14 that deal with the situation, and they contain -- they have a definition

15 of -- of "suspect" which covers the situation of Mr. Shala.

16 I'm just trying to find it -- I was just trying to find it, if

17 Your Honours please.

18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please find it.

19 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm looking at -- I think we find it in Rules --

20 around Rule 39. If Your Honours would just give me a moment.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, Rule 42 deals with the interview of a

22 suspect.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that's right. It contains the -- the

24 definition -- that's right. The Rules also contain a definition of

25 "suspect," if Your Honours please.

Page 9932

1 JUDGE ORIE: Is that 2 or -- yes.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: 2. Rule 2.


4 MR. DI FAZIO: And --

5 JUDGE ORIE: "The person concerning whom the Prosecutor possesses

6 reliable information which tends to show that the person may have

7 committed a crime over which the Tribunal has jurisdiction."

8 MR. DI FAZIO: May have committed. It's, if I may say so, couched

9 in broad terms. It's information -- reliable information which tends to

10 show that he may have committed a crime. And it's -- it's a broad

11 definition.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 MR. DI FAZIO: He is, of course, not a target of any -- of any

14 investigation.

15 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?

16 MR. DI FAZIO: He is not a target of any investigation.

17 JUDGE ORIE: He's not a target of any investigation at this

18 moment, so, theoretically, you would say he's a suspect but he's not at

19 this moment --

20 MR. DI FAZIO: He falls within that definition.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And --

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Theoretically or otherwise, he falls within that

23 definition.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I take it that any -- any -- bringing an

25 indictment against him is considered to be totally impossible in the

Page 9933

1 present stages.

2 [Prosecution counsel confer]

3 MR. DI FAZIO: I can safely indicate that.


5 [Trial Chamber confers]

6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has decided that it will not caution the

7 witness at the beginning of his testimony. At the same time, the Chamber

8 will start the examination of the witness by verifying a few matters and

9 informing him about a few matters as well.

10 Therefore, Mr. Di Fazio, I do understand that there's no

11 application for protective measures?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: No.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Then you may call your next witness, being

14 Mr. Pjeter Shala, if I'm well informed.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, while we're waiting for the witness,

16 can we just briefly go into private -- private session?


18 MR. DI FAZIO: It's only a very brief matter.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Before we do so -- before we do so,

20 Mr. Di Fazio, when I said that I'll not give a caution to the witness in

21 the beginning of his testimony, that does not exclude for the possibility

22 that the Chamber would consider at a certain moment that there is a need

23 to do so. That will depend on the course of the examination and --

24 MR. DI FAZIO: Entirely. Entirely. That's --

25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It's now just for the parties to be informed

Page 9934

1 about this.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Then you'd like to go into private session?

4 (redacted)


6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 9935

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 [Open session]

13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

15 Could the witness be brought into the courtroom.

16 [The witness entered court]

17 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Shala. Can you hear me in a

18 language you understand?

19 Before --

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of

22 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that you

23 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24 The text is now handed out to you by the usher. May I invite you

25 to make that solemn declaration.

Page 9936

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

2 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shala, please be seated.


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shala, before the examination starts, the Chamber

7 would like to know whether you are aware that your name appear in --

8 appears in the indictment which was brought against the accused.

9 Are you aware of that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The Chamber further would like to inform you

12 that although you have been interviewed as a suspect and that you still

13 officially qualify as a suspect, that is, someone who -- of whom there are

14 reasons to believe that you may have committed a crime, that at this

15 moment you are not the target of any investigation by this Tribunal at

16 this moment and that you cannot be prosecuted any more before this

17 Tribunal.

18 Were you aware of that?

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. But I'm learning that today.

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, further the Chamber would like to know

21 whether you are aware of -- of any investigation or any case which we --

22 will be brought against you, any prosecution in any other jurisdiction.

23 The Chamber has no knowledge of that. But if you would know of such an

24 investigation or preparation for a prosecution, the Chamber would like to

25 know from you. Are you aware of any such thing in other jurisdictions?

Page 9937

1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At least now I have only had

2 interviews with the Tribunal's investigators, but there has been no

3 charges or accusations raised against me so far.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And as far as you're aware of, no -- no

5 specific investigations against you either?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, finally I'd like to draw your attention to

8 the fact that since you're testifying in open court, that whatever you say

9 can be heard by the outside world, and I just want you to be aware of

10 that. Are you aware of that?

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I know that, and there is

12 nothing to hide.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shala, you'll now be examined by Mr. Di Fazio,

15 who's counsel for the Prosecution.

16 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.

18 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:

19 Q. Mr. Shala, I wonder if you could just give us a few personal

20 details. Firstly, your date of birth. Could you tell the Trial Chamber

21 what your date of birth is, please.

22 A. It's the 17th of September, 1973.

23 THE INTERPRETER: We didn't quite get the year he was born.


25 Q. Just speak up a little more clearly so that the interpreters in

Page 9938

1 the booths can hear you and they'll interpret for me. Could you just

2 repeat the year. They got the date and month -- the day and month but not

3 the year. What year were you born?

4 A. 1963. And that was in Prizren.

5 Q. Prizren in Kosovo.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And were you educated in Kosovo? Did you go to school there?

8 A. Yes. The primary school I carried out in Prizren, and my higher

9 school in Boro i Ramiz in Prizren.

10 Q. Thank you for that information. I want to ask you about events in

11 1998 in -- in Kosovo. And the first question I want to ask you about that

12 particular time is whether you had any nicknames. Did you have any

13 nicknames in -- in 1998?

14 A. Yes. It was "The Wolf." My friends referred to me as "The Wolf."

15 Q. "The Wolf," and pronounced Ujku in Albanian; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Now, in 1998, in the early part of 1998, did -- did you enter

18 Kosovo from Albania?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Can you remember the date or -- or month? And if you can't

21 remember that, if you can't remember the date or the month -- just hear --

22 wait for the question. If you can't remember the date or the month, can

23 you remember what season it was?

24 A. Yes. It was spring. After the killing of the Jasharis.

25 Q. Can you remember about how long after the killing of the Jasharis

Page 9939

1 it was? Was it a matter of weeks or days? Months?

2 A. I can't remember exactly. Two, three weeks, or a month. Many

3 years have passed since. So I can't remember the exact date.

4 Q. Fair enough. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about that crossing.

5 How did you do it? Who were you with? And -- and what your purpose was.

6 A. We got together a few friends. We met some other members who had

7 worked as military officers. We met them together with Hasan Iliti

8 [phoen]. We were living together in Tirana. And our aim was to go to

9 Kosovo to protect the population so that the Jasharis case would not be

10 repeated again.

11 As far as we knew how to defend ourselves, we would do our best.

12 Q. All right. And when you actually crossed over into Kosovo, about

13 how many men were with you?

14 A. 20, 30? Maybe 30. I don't know exactly. I can't remember

15 exactly.

16 Q. And were you and these men carrying -- carrying cargo of any sort?

17 A. Yes. We had our automatic weapons and munition.

18 Q. And can you tell the Trial Chamber about how much in the way of

19 armaments and ammunition -- sorry, automatic weapons and ammunition you

20 were -- each individual was carrying?

21 A. It was as -- as much as each one of us could carry. As much as we

22 could carry, we got it.

23 Q. Okay. And once across the mountains, where did you go?

24 A. We had someone who knew the way. He waited for us and led the way

25 to Smonica.

Page 9940

1 Q. And is that in a place -- in an area called Reka e Keqe?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Were you supposed to meet anyone there?

4 A. Yes. We met Kenun [phoen].

5 Q. Okay. And did you -- were you -- anyone else, or is that it?

6 A. There were other people as well, but I can't remember their names.

7 However, we didn't know each other's names. I don't even know them now.

8 Q. Have you ever heard the nickname Smajl?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. In what context have you heard that nickname?

11 A. Smajl was supposed to come and meet us in Smonica, but at the time

12 there were -- there was unrest in Decan and he couldn't come. No one

13 could come from there. And it was the people from Smonica who -- who

14 accompanied us up to the asphalted road, and then they told us up to -- to

15 go up to Suka, the way up to Suka, and somebody else would come and meet

16 us there.

17 Q. Thanks. Thanks for that.

18 Did you ever find out subsequently who Smajl was?

19 A. Yes, later on. Late. After I stayed in Gllogjan for a while, and

20 then I knew who Smajli was.

21 Q. And did you find -- or who did you discover Smajli or Smajl to be?

22 A. He was the father of Nasim and the father of Agron. Smajl

23 Haradinaj.

24 Q. And what was his first name?

25 A. Smajl.

Page 9941

1 Q. Did he have any other names apart from Smajl?

2 A. It was Smajl Haradinaj. He was the father of Nasim and Agron.

3 [Prosecution counsel confer]


5 Q. I want to play a portion of tape that -- of an interview that you

6 gave to the Office of the Prosecutor.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Emmerson.

8 MR. EMMERSON: I had understood that it wasn't Mr. Di Fazio's

9 intention to examine the witness by reference to the transcripts of the

10 interviews.

11 Obviously the same conditions apply as with any other witness

12 where the Prosecution seek to rely upon an earlier statement. In other

13 words, once we get to the point where a memory refreshment circumstance

14 arises, then in such a situation it is permissible for the Prosecution to

15 seek recourse to earlier statements but --

16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We do not know yet at this moment what

17 Mr. Di Fazio wants, but perhaps -- perhaps you could explain,

18 Mr. Di Fazio.

19 Perhaps if you could take your earphones off for a while,

20 Mr. Shala.

21 Do you speak any English?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A little bit. [In English] A

23 little.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, you're aware that the witness

25 understands a little English?

Page 9942

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Well, the portion of the interview I want to

2 play is where this very topic was discussed as between investigators and

3 the -- the witness. He offered information about the topic.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Is that about what the first name was of the person

5 he --

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first perhaps try that in a different way.

8 Before we play the video --

9 Mr. Shala, could you ...

10 You were asked about the person with the nickname Smajl. I think

11 you later said it was Smajl Haradinaj. Do you know what his official

12 first name is?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As -- as far as I know, it's the

14 father of Nasim, and he is called Smajl Haradinaj. And we stayed in his

15 place. We lived there. In -- in a Western country.

16 But now I don't understand where the Prosecutor is going, but

17 we -- we understand that Ramush also had his pseudonym as Smajl, but maybe

18 I didn't understand the whole thing well.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Do you say that apart from a father you just

20 mentioned, that Ramush Haradinaj also was nicknamed Smajl? Is that

21 correctly understood?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's how I understood it.

23 And Smajl Haradinaj, he was living in a Western country, and we weren't

24 expecting an 80-year-old that Smajl Haradinaj was to come and meet us. So

25 obviously it was Ramush who would come and meet us there.

Page 9943

1 JUDGE ORIE: Could I stress, Mr. Shala, that you have given a

2 solemn declaration that you'll speak the truth, the whole truth. That is

3 that, if someone asks about persons by the nickname Smajl, that you

4 mentioned everyone you know under that nickname, whether you consider it

5 likely or not that it's relevant, but please tell us everything you know.

6 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.

8 Q. And thank you, Witness, for that clarification.

9 All right. After you'd crossed the mountains and made your way to

10 Smonica and -- in the area of Reka e Keqe, where did you ultimately end

11 up, your -- your group of men?

12 A. In Jabllanice.

13 Q. And was that very shortly after you crossed over the mountains?

14 You -- a matter of a day or so?

15 A. It was a night or two. I don't know exactly which village it was.

16 It was --

17 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry, the interpreters have got a technical

18 problem. Whenever I switch the mic, I can't hear the witness.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have a technical problem with microphones at

20 this moment. I don't know who's going to resolve it.

21 Could I get a signal from --

22 THE INTERPRETER: The witness said that: "We passed the mountain.

23 We spent one night in a village where we met someone who was cutting

24 timber. And then we went to Jabllanice."

25 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that then the technical problems have been

Page 9944

1 resolved.

2 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. Thank you, Your Honour.

4 Q. All right. So you got to Jablanica. And where did you and the --

5 the group of men go? Where did you take up residence or ...?

6 A. In the house of Lahi.

7 Q. And --

8 THE INTERPRETER: I think we've still got that problem. Whenever

9 I switch the microphone on, I can't hear the witness.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: It's not your fault, Witness. There's a technical

11 problem. Just wait a moment.

12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shala, we have to take our time to see whether

14 we can resolve it.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Shall we have another go? I still can hear the

16 echo, though. It's the same thing.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shala, since the problem has not been resolved

18 and since we are about to have a break anyhow, we'll take it a bit

19 earlier. We will have a break and we'll resume at five minutes to 4.00.

20 --- Recess taken at 3.32 p.m.

21 --- On resuming at 3.59 p.m.

22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.

23 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

24 Q. Mr. Shala, just before the break you said that you got to

25 Jablanica with your group of men and you took up residence in the house of

Page 9945

1 Lahi. Lahi who?

2 A. Lahi Brahimaj.

3 Q. Did you ever meet his -- let me rephrase that. Does he have a

4 brother?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Do you know what his name is?

7 A. He was there. He came in later, actually.

8 Q. And --

9 A. Nazmi Brahimaj.

10 Q. Okay. Thanks. And how long did you stay in Jablanica from that

11 point onwards?

12 A. I can't remember exactly. Four weeks? Five? I can't remember

13 exactly.

14 Q. Okay. I'm just trying to get a broad picture now. So you -- you

15 go across the mountains, down to Jablanica. You're there for about four

16 or five weeks. And after that, where -- where did you go?

17 A. Went to Gllogjan.

18 Q. Do you know of a place called Dujak?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you ever go there for a period of time?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And about when was that in relation to your stay in Jablanica?

23 Was it after the time -- after the four or five weeks had finished at

24 Jablanica? Or did you go to Dujak and then return to -- to -- to

25 Jablanica?

Page 9946

1 A. I went to Jabllanice first and then I went to Dujake, where I

2 started work.

3 Q. All right. So now let's focus on that period of time when you

4 were in Jablanica before you went to Dujak. You've told us that you went

5 to stay in the house of Lahi Brahimaj. Did you -- did you stay there

6 throughout the time that you were in Jablanica, or did you move around?

7 A. We didn't stay in one place. We -- we had lunch in one house,

8 dinner in -- in another, because we couldn't be a burden to one single

9 family all the time.

10 Q. Okay. And are you referring to that group of men that crossed the

11 mountains with you?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Thank you. Now, you -- you know -- you've heard of the

14 organisation the KLA.

15 A. Yes. I was a member of it.

16 Q. Yes, of course. Okay. Now, did it have a headquarters in

17 Jablanica?

18 A. Headquarters? I don't know. That was a house where the superiors

19 met. Just a house of Lahi. I don't know.

20 Q. Fair enough. But when you say "the superiors," have you got any

21 names or people in mind, or they were just superiors to you? Can you let

22 us know?

23 A. I'm saying superiors, Gjelal Hajda was there. He slept there. I

24 was living there. It was the so-called superiors, because all of us were

25 soldiers, in fact.

Page 9947

1 Q. Okay. And you -- when you say "superiors," you mean your

2 superiors in the KLA?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thanks. And it was in Lahi's house that these superiors

5 congregated from time to time. Is that -- is that --

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do I correctly understand you?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you ever attend such meetings?

10 A. Yes. I was having my meals there. I was sleeping there. There

11 was no formal meetings as such.

12 Q. And did you take orders from anyone?

13 A. From the local headquarters commander.

14 Q. And who was that?

15 A. Nazmi.

16 Q. And what about Lahi Brahimaj? Did he ever give you orders? Or

17 can I ask you in addition to that: Were you aware of receiving orders

18 that had emanated from him?

19 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, I --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

21 MR. HARVEY: I'm not quite sure what that last question means,

22 so --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Could you please reformulate the question.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. Well, I'll take the easy way and split

25 it into two.

Page 9948

1 Q. What about Lahi Brahimaj? Did he ever directly give you orders?

2 A. I don't know. Maybe. But I cannot remember exactly.

3 Q. Okay. Now, in addition to the -- to the headquarters, was there a

4 barracks anywhere in Jablanica? Or a building that served as a -- as a

5 type of barracks?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And about how far from Lahi Brahimaj's house would that barracks

8 have been?

9 A. It was at the entrance of the village; whereas, Lahi's house is in

10 the heart of the village.

11 Q. I would like to show you a drawing.

12 Yes, okay, you've told us at the entrance of the village, but

13 about how far from the house would you say? Try and give us an idea in

14 metres or kilometres.

15 A. I can't -- I don't know the exact distance, because the village is

16 not as big in terms of -- in terms of measuring it with kilometres.

17 Q. Less than a kilometre?

18 A. I don't know, sir. I am not in a position even to -- to know how

19 long a kilometre is. And I was only walking. I didn't use a car. I

20 don't know how long the distance is, in terms of metres or kilometres.

21 Q. Okay. All right. I would like you -- I'm going to show you a

22 diagram or a drawing --

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.

24 You said you didn't use a car, you don't know how long a kilometre

25 is. From the entrance of the village, how many minutes would it take you

Page 9949

1 if you would walk there to the house of Lahi?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Five -- five, six minutes. Seven

3 maximum.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.

6 Can the witness be shown 65 ter 2117.

7 Q. Witness, it's a -- a drawing or a plan that I want to show you

8 here.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Does it need a number, Mr. --

10 MR. DI FAZIO: It will eventually, yes, if Your Honours please.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be number P1185.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: Could we flip it -- oh, that's it. Thanks.

15 Q. Is that your signature that you see at the top left-hand corner of

16 that particular plan?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Thank you. Now, what does -- have a look at the plan.

19 And perhaps we can flip it again so that it's on its side to make

20 it easier for you. Okay. There we are. What -- and perhaps if we can

21 make it a little bigger.

22 That seems to be a diagram. Do you know what it represents?

23 A. Yes. Yes.

24 Q. Tell the Trial Chamber what -- what it -- what it's a plan of.

25 A. It's the barracks. There was a small house which was used as a

Page 9950

1 barracks. And there was also a depot for the food --

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. -- for the soldiers.

4 Q. And that's the barracks that you just told His Honour it took

5 about five or six minutes' walk from Lahi Brahimaj's house.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that's your drawing.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection?

14 No objection. Admitted into evidence, P1185.

15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.

16 Q. And now while we've been talking about that particular diagram,

17 Mr. Shala, I'd like to show you a photograph.

18 Can the witness be shown D118. Thank you.

19 Do you recognise that place, that -- that building, that area?

20 A. Yes. But I haven't seen it in such a state. It's dilapidated.

21 Q. Yes. Yes, it's -- well, first questions first: Is that the

22 barracks that you've just been talking about? And is that a photograph of

23 the -- the buildings that you were trying to depict in that drawing I

24 showed you just moments ago?

25 A. Yes.

Page 9951

1 Q. But when you last saw it, it was in better condition. And, what,

2 were there more buildings or -- or was it just like that?

3 A. It was better. But I see the kitchen was destroyed, the place

4 where bread was cooked was destroyed.

5 Q. Where did the soldiers -- let me rephrase that. You've described

6 it as a barracks there. Did -- did soldiers actually sleep somewhere at

7 that location?

8 A. Yes, in that house.

9 Q. Did the -- was there an office there?

10 A. Yes, there was a kind of office at the entrance, a so-called

11 office, because only it had a desk inside and nothing else.

12 Q. Right. If I asked you to perhaps mark - if you -- if you can see

13 it - the window or -- or part of the building that -- where this office

14 was that you've just spoken about, could you do that, please? You see the

15 pen can write on the surface of the screen. If you can just perhaps do an

16 arrow pointing -- pointing -- perhaps an arrow.

17 A. Yes. [Marks]

18 Q. Thank you. And perhaps just put your initials underneath that,

19 down at the bottom somewhere. On the screen.

20 A. Here?

21 Q. Thank you.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that

23 particular image.

24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

25 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be number P1186.

Page 9952

1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

2 May I take it that there are no objections against it? Then it's

3 admitted into evidence, P1186.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I still haven't finished with it, and so I'd like

5 to save that image and have it as an exhibit, but I'd like the witness to

6 be shown it again, please, if we could.

7 JUDGE ORIE: I think it's still on the screen.

8 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, I'm not sure of the technicalities of

9 this. Do we not have to save this and show it again?

10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, if we save it, then, of course, no changes can

11 be made any more. That's --

12 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's right.

14 MR. DI FAZIO: That would seem to be the safer course, I would

15 think.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, is it saved?

17 It is. Please proceed. A number is already assigned.

18 MR. DI FAZIO: Does that mean, Your Honours, that he can mark it

19 again, if necessary? I see --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But then, of course, it would need another

21 number.

22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.


24 MR. DI FAZIO: Got that. Thank you.

25 Q. Did you ever go to this location in the weeks that you were at

Page 9953

1 Jablanica before going to Dujak?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. About how often would you visit there? And for what reason?

4 A. We went there to -- to have the meals, because the kitchen was

5 there.

6 Q. Did you ever go there for any other reason, or was it just to eat?

7 A. To eat. But if I was riding in somebody's car, I would go there

8 to get the petrol or diesel.

9 Q. Thank you. And you can see the building on the -- on the

10 right-hand side. It's obviously dilapidated there, and it's got a group

11 of men standing out in front of it. What was that building on the

12 right-hand side?

13 A. It was the house where the soldiers slept.

14 Q. Only soldiers in that house or -- or was it used for any other

15 purpose?

16 A. I've seen soldiers only. I've seen nothing else.

17 Q. Did you ever see Mr. Brahimaj? By that I mean Mr. Lahi Brahimaj

18 or Mr. Nazmi Brahimaj in that place?

19 A. Yes, normally we -- we went there whenever we wanted to get

20 soldiers from -- that's where we reported to get them. And, of course,

21 the -- it was the village commander who decided who was going to go for a

22 particular assignment.

23 Q. Thank you. And in the time that you were in Jablanica before

24 heading off to Dujak, did you ever meet a man named Miftar?

25 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I -- may I ask a question?

Page 9954

1 Mr. Shala, you said it was the village commander who decided who

2 was going to go for a particular assignment. Were you speaking of

3 somebody in particular? Who was the village commander? What did he say?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nazmi Brahimaj was the one who gave

5 orders. And he had the list and he -- he decided who was going to go to

6 collect weapons, who was going to go on a particular assignment. And I --

7 I got everything from him.

8 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And is this the same as the village commander? Do

9 you mean that?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He was the village commander. He

11 was the village commander.


13 Q. Do you know if Lahi Brahimaj ever gave orders to Nazmi Brahimaj or

14 vice versa?

15 A. I don't know this.

16 Q. Okay. And now, I -- I -- unless I missed it, I didn't get an

17 answer, I think, to my question, an earlier question. I asked you about a

18 gentleman named Miftar. In the time you were in Jablanica, did you come

19 to know a man named, or nicknamed, Miftar?

20 A. There are many Miftars in the Albanian community, and I don't know

21 about which person we are talking about.

22 Q. Well, think of it in this way: Does that mean that there were a

23 lot of Miftars in Jablanica, or you met no one called Miftar in Jablanica,

24 or you simply can't remember? Do your best and tell the Judges.

25 A. I can't remember, but in -- in every village there is a Miftar and

Page 9955

1 I don't know about which Miftar we are talking about.

2 Q. Thank you. I just want to ask you about some other names.

3 Alush Agushi, do you -- do you know him?

4 A. Yes. Now -- now I know who that person is. Previously, I knew

5 him by his alias. Now I know who he is.

6 Q. Right. And what was Alush Agushi's alias?

7 A. We called him Pipi, because he had a problem with his throat.

8 Q. Okay. And did you see him in Jablanica?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was he a member of the KLA?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What was his relationship with Lahi Brahimaj?

13 A. I don't know this. I don't know their links.

14 Q. Think back. Have you ever known what their relationship was?

15 Have you ever been able to remember what their relationship was, if any?

16 A. I don't know. Whenever he came to Lahi's place, he was there

17 among others. As to what relations they have, I don't know. They will

18 properly know it. I don't know what relations and -- and how to

19 understand this question.

20 Q. Let me help you. Would you describe them as being very close?

21 Not just professional acquaintances but actually close, good friends.

22 A. I think so.

23 Q. Do you know a gentleman named Arbnur Zeneli?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Was he a member of the KLA?

Page 9956

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Excuse me. And did you ever see him in Jablanica?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. You've told us about the KLA and soldiers and so on. As far as

5 you're aware, did the KLA ever develop, in whatever form - whatever form -

6 a military police contingent in the area?

7 A. No. We had the so-called military police, but it -- it was just

8 to -- to check and make sure that the soldiers were ready, at hand to help

9 out. But nobody had ever undergone any military police training as such.

10 Q. Okay. All right. Thanks for that explanation.

11 Were you a member of the military police?

12 A. I -- I had a black uniform of a so-called military policeman, but

13 it was just a formal thing so that at least when people saw that kind of

14 uniform that they could take us seriously.

15 Q. Okay. So I -- I gather from what you've just said that there was

16 something called a military police entity but you didn't think much of it

17 and you didn't think it was very organised or sophisticated. I don't want

18 to put words in your mouth, but is that correct or not?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. All right. So let's call it the military police, whatever -- for

21 the sake of being able to continue with this -- this questioning. And you

22 can -- I'll give you an opportunity to describe it. Okay?

23 You've said that you were in the -- in the military police. Do

24 you -- who appointed you to that position?

25 A. I can't remember names, but we received an order in writing that

Page 9957

1 for that period, for that period we would exercise the task of a military

2 police. And -- and in this entity we could have the best capable people

3 and that we would retrain people to do this task as best as they could.

4 Q. Let me ask you this: Do you know of -- or have you ever heard of

5 a gentleman named Hasim Thaqi?

6 A. Hasim?

7 Q. Hasim Taqi or Thaqi. I apologise for my pronunciation. I think

8 it's Thaqi.

9 A. Sorry, are we talking about Hasim or Hashim?

10 Q. Perhaps I'll ask you another question and assist you. Have you

11 ever heard of a man named "The Snake"?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Do you know the Snake's real name or his proper name?

14 A. Yes, it's Hashim Thaqi.

15 Q. Did -- did he ever have anything to do with your appointment as a

16 military police officer?

17 A. I don't know. I'm not sure. But -- it's something I'm not sure

18 about. Maybe yes; maybe no.

19 Q. So you're unsure; is that right?

20 A. I'm not sure.

21 Q. Would it help you if I played a tape that you gave -- a tape of an

22 interview that you conducted with officers of the OTP two years ago?

23 Would that help your -- would that assist your memory? I can do that.

24 A. Yes. No problem.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 9958

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Can the witness -- I'd like --

2 Q. I'd like you to -- this tape -- you'll be able to see writing on

3 the -- on the screen, and you'll be able to hear words as well. Okay?

4 JUDGE ORIE: As far as translation into English and French is

5 concerned, the booth are aware that if it goes too quickly that --

6 MR. DI FAZIO: And just --

7 JUDGE ORIE: -- one reads and follows whether the words written

8 down are the spoken words and that the other interpreter then translates,

9 even if a bit behind.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, if you -- I understand

11 you've got binders. And you can find this in --

12 JUDGE ORIE: Have the booth received any binders, Mr. Di Fazio?

13 Yes, I see Ms. Gustafson is nodding "yes."

14 MR. DI FAZIO: I believe so. I'm told that's covered.


16 MR. DI FAZIO: And you'll find -- it's only a very small passage

17 that I want to play. And it's tape 2742, B side, page 8, and it goes

18 until page 10. All right? And so ...

19 [Audiotape played]

20 You served as the head of the Military Police at the time?

21 Sort of. Appointed.

22 Who appointed you?

23 The Snake.

24 Dhjetshi.

25 The Tenth. A nickname?

Page 9959

1 The Ten, we knew him as the Ten.

2 No, Hashim Thaqi was the Snake.

3 Rexhep Selimi.

4 It should be him.

5 He was a short man.

6 I don't follow -- I don't have a satellite box, and I don't follow

7 much of the news so that I'd know where are they now or ...

8 The Fifteenth.

9 He was Lahi Brahimaj.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I want the next line. It's the very next line.

11 Just the next line.

12 [Audiotape played]

13 You served as the head of the Military Police?

14 Who appointed you?

15 Dhjetshi.

16 The Tenth. A nickname?

17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. Your Honour --

18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.

19 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to the question asked by Mr. Di Fazio,

20 and as I understand it the purpose for which Mr. Shala was listening to

21 the tape, he has received an answer. If he wishes to propose another

22 question, perhaps that would be appropriate. Otherwise, he is at this

23 point leading the witness in areas where we don't know where he's going.

24 The specific question dealt with whether he'd been appointed and whether

25 he knew Mr. Hashim Thaqi. We certainly have covered that area.

Page 9960

1 JUDGE ORIE: It is not entirely clear to me.

2 Mr. Di Fazio, the questions were about Hashim Thaqi being the

3 Snake.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: And his -- and --

5 JUDGE ORIE: And who appointed the witness where he said he didn't

6 remember.

7 MR. DI FAZIO: That's right. And --

8 MR. GUY-SMITH: The specific question was: Do you know the

9 Snake's real name or his proper name? This is at page 39, line 10:

10 "Yes, it's Hashim Thaqi.

11 "Did he have anything to do with your appointment as a military

12 police officer?

13 "I don't know. I'm not sure."

14 So we've got --

15 JUDGE ORIE: Let's try to get matters done in a more quick way.

16 You have heard - and we could replay it - part of the interview

17 you gave. We have on paper and up to what we heard the paper reflects

18 what apparently is said on this statement.

19 Now, let's just stick to the portion we just heard. You earlier

20 said that you do not remember whether the Snake, or Hashim Thaqi, had

21 anything to do with your appointment as a police officer. Mr. Di Fazio

22 played this. Does that refresh your memory? Do you remember whether he

23 was or was not involved in your appointment?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was my personal opinion that I

25 was appointed by the persons who were present and the black uniform came

Page 9961

1 from Drenica, because at that time we didn't have any uniforms.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let me stop you -- let me stop you there.

3 Having heard the tape, and if the question is put to you again

4 whether the Snake or, as he was called, Hashim Thaqi, did he have to do

5 anything with your appointment as a policeman?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have always believed so. I cannot

7 be certain, however, because I didn't get any orders from him and I am not

8 sure, but that's my personal belief. I thought he must have played a hand

9 in my appointment.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Now, was he the only one, or were there others who

11 were involved in the appointment of you as a policeman?

12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There have been others as well.

13 JUDGE ORIE: Could you name them, please.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Tenth, the Fifteenth, because I

15 knew them by numbers. It was much later that I learned their -- their

16 names.

17 JUDGE ORIE: Who was the Fifteenth?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Lahi.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Lahi Brahimaj?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.


23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Shala.

24 I just want to show you another document now, and that will be 65

25 ter 2115.

Page 9962

1 JUDGE ORIE: Does that need a number, Mr. Di Fazio?

2 MR. DI FAZIO: It will eventually, yes.

3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be number?

4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be P1187.

5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar. Marked for identification.


7 Q. Okay. I hope you can read that. Tell us if you can't. It's a

8 bit small.

9 The -- let's have a look at the top part of the document. Thank

10 you, Mr. -- Mr. Registrar.

11 This is a -- a document for the duties and rights of the military

12 police or Policia Ushtarake, signed by a gentleman named Gjelal Hajda,

13 Toni. Have you ever -- and there's also a signature on the document to

14 the left. Whose signature is that?

15 A. The one on the left side is my signature.

16 Q. Thanks for that. Have you seen that document -- sorry, let me be

17 clearer. In 1998, did you ever see that document?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And what about the man named Toni or Toni? Did you ever -- can

20 you tell us who he is?

21 A. Gjelal Hajda.

22 Q. Thanks for that. We can read that. Was he known to you too? Was

23 he operating in Jablanica?

24 A. Yes. We came together from Albania, and we stayed together until

25 we went to Rahovec. I went there too for two days to help them. And from

Page 9963

1 Rahovec I returned to Dujake.

2 Q. Thanks for that. And underneath -- could we just slide the

3 document down a bit and let's look at the other one, which we can see

4 underneath that.

5 That, I think I'm pretty confident, is the same -- essentially,

6 the same content as the -- as the one above but signed by someone else.

7 Firstly, is that your signature that you see on the left?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And I don't think there's any dispute about that -- this, rather.

10 That Nazmi Ibrahimaj's signature at the bottom of that document?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. If you can remember this, think back to this particular period of

13 time. Do you know who actually gave you a copy of those military rules,

14 those temporary internal regulations?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who was it who gave you those?

17 A. It was -- the name of the person who gave it to me was

18 Gjelal Ajdoni [as interpreted] and Nazmi Brahimaj, the commander of the

19 local staff, and you have the signatures there.

20 Q. Can you remember approximately when you were given those documents

21 because it's undated, so can you recall?

22 A. I'm very sorry, but I don't remember the date.

23 Q. If I were to play to you the parts of the interview where you've

24 commented on this, would it assist you memory? Would you like me to play

25 the tape where you've commented on this, to help your memory?

Page 9964

1 A. Yes, you may.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: Okay. Well, let's just -- it's only a very short

3 excerpt. I'd like to play to you this small passage.

4 Your Honours will find this passage, if you just give me a moment,

5 in 2742-B, page 11. Page 11.

6 [Audiotape played]

7 THE INTERPRETER: No, I have a document. These are -- the -- the

8 upper part of the document concerns Rahovec and the lower part with the

9 rules -- internal rules -- temporary internal rules for military police.

10 This concerns Jablanica, and it's signed. It's signed by the commander of

11 the local staff, Nazmi Brahimaj.

12 There's no date?

13 No, we didn't have any dates.

14 Do you remember when he signed this?

15 It could be two months after, one month after or one month and a

16 half after we entered.

17 So maybe somewhere in March?

18 Latest April. But it shouldn't be May. Sorry, March -- end of

19 March.

20 And what exactly does the document say? Maybe you can translate

21 it.

22 It's the Rule of --

23 MR. DI FAZIO: We can stop it there, I think.

24 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm sorry. I'm --


Page 9965

1 MR. EMMERSON: I'm interrupting.

2 JUDGE ORIE: I'm sorry, Mr. Emmerson. I was looking at something

3 else.

4 MR. EMMERSON: I do apologise.

5 I wonder if the witness might remove his earphones. I appreciate

6 that's --

7 JUDGE ORIE: Could you take off your earphones for a second

8 Mr. Shala.

9 THE WITNESS: [Witness complies]

10 MR. EMMERSON: I'm anxious to ensure that the proper foundation is

11 laid and the proper use made of material if it's to be deployed as

12 memory-refreshing material.

13 Now, any of us who have studied these transcripts are aware that

14 the witness has said, as he said in his evidence in chief, that he's

15 entirely unaware of the date sequence but that, as he said in his evidence

16 in chief a little while ago, he entered Kosovo sometime after the massacre

17 of the Jasharis on the 5th of March.

18 Now, because of the uncertainty that appears in this transcript

19 about dates, a question is asked of him about when these documents were

20 drafted, and he says one and a half to two months after I entered. And

21 then a question is put to him on the basis of an misapprehension of his

22 earlier answers, when it says: "So that would be sometime in March, would

23 it?"

24 Now, with the greatest respect, that is not a proper use of

25 memory-refreshing material. On the contrary, it's memory-obfuscating

Page 9966

1 material.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, I do understand the, well, we could

3 say, criticism is that you seek to refresh the memory of the witness on

4 the basis of an interview where he is confused as far as the chronology is

5 concerned.

6 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, he doesn't appear to be. He seems to have

7 given it some thought and he -- he -- he's not emphatic about the actual

8 period of time as well. There's some latitude in what he says. He says:

9 "Could be two months. One month, or after one month and a half. So maybe

10 somewhere in March." And he says: "At the latest April." And then he

11 says: "But it shouldn't be May -- sorry, March, end of March."

12 So I would accept that there's a lack of precision in -- in what

13 he says, but he does give you some parameters. And obviously it must have

14 happened after he crossed the mountains, and we know that that happened

15 the Jashari family suffered their fate. So it's -- we know that it's

16 sometime towards the end of May. But in the very answer, he's giving

17 you -- he's not pretending to give you any sort of precision. He's only

18 giving you a window, a period of time for the -- for the -- for the

19 creation -- for the acceptance of this document.

20 And the witness is -- in the interview is not pretending to do any

21 more than that, and I'm not seeking to elicit anything -- evidence of

22 anything more than his approximation.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then would you please be very careful, because

24 there's some merit in both in what you say, Mr. Emmerson, and in what you

25 say, that is, that it might not be easy to reconcile all answers in their

Page 9967

1 proper chronology and at the same time, as Mr. Di Fazio points out, the

2 witness seems to have given it some thought about timing and --

3 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. My concern, as Your Honours will have

4 appreciated, is that he's given it some thought but he responds to a

5 leading proposition - namely, March - put on the basis of inconsistent

6 earlier answers and then from that extrapolates a date of one and a half

7 to two months.

8 Now, he said earlier in his interviews, as he said in his evidence

9 in chief that, the starting date for entry postdates the entry into

10 Kosovo.


12 MR. EMMERSON: Which, of course, postdates the Jashari massacre.

13 Now, the reason I'm rising isn't because I can't understand the

14 parameters that Mr. Di Fazio is seeking to identify. The reason I'm

15 rising is because it is very important that if material is to be used

16 genuinely on a memory-refreshing basis, then it must be material that can

17 refresh a witness's memory, rather than simply a substitution of one

18 memory for another.

19 I don't -- I'm not --

20 JUDGE ORIE: This -- this becomes almost philosophical,

21 Mr. Emmerson.

22 MR. EMMERSON: Well, I'm laying down a marker at this stage --


24 MR. EMMERSON: -- because --

25 JUDGE ORIE: The marker is there. Attention has been drawn.

Page 9968

1 MR. EMMERSON: And it's -- you know, fundamentally the proposition

2 that there shouldn't come a point - and I for my part would be alert, if I

3 may, to raise objections if there does - when memory refreshing slips over

4 into impeachment because it is the Prosecution who's chosen to elicit

5 material on which they say they can properly rely from this witness.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The marker is there.

7 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.

8 Could you please put on your --

9 By the way, Mr. Di Fazio, a totally different question: I see on

10 the list of the 13th of September, 0.5 hours. That's far beyond what

11 you've used until now, isn't it?

12 MR. DI FAZIO: It is. I've got to confess it is, if Your Honours

13 please. And I'm aware of the consequences for us.

14 I -- I must say that I'm making reasonably good progress. I know

15 I've already -- that's a strange thing to say knowing that I've already

16 exceeded the time limit, but I must ask for a little more time. I've --

17 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you still need?

18 MR. DI FAZIO: I -- could Your Honour just give me a moment,

19 please.

20 [Prosecution counsel confer]

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I -- I'm forced to seek another 40 minutes.

22 JUDGE ORIE: 14 minutes?

23 MR. DI FAZIO: 40.

24 JUDGE ORIE: 40. That brings us to more than triple what you

25 asked for.

Page 9969

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. I --

2 JUDGE ORIE: We'll consider it. Try to focus at this moment on

3 the most important parts. We'll consider it during the first break.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: I will. Thank you, Your Honours. I'm grateful to

5 you to allow me -- to consider that, and I'll do my level best to move

6 this -- to move this along.

7 JUDGE ORIE: But you should keep in your mind that it might be

8 that you've got only time until the first break, which will -- we'll have

9 at quarter past 5.00.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: Quarter past. Thank you.

11 Q. Do you know a -- a gentleman named Toger, or does the name Toger

12 mean anything to you?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Did you ever meet such an individual in Jablanica?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And was he a member of the KLA?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. What position did he hold in the KLA?

19 A. He trained the -- the young soldiers.

20 Q. What sort of soldiers? Regular soldiers?

21 A. The voluntary soldiers. All of us were voluntary. We didn't have

22 any regular army as such. We didn't have any proper institution to

23 organise an army.

24 Q. Were there any units in -- operating in the area of Jablanica that

25 were regarded as special units or any form of -- not part of the regular

Page 9970

1 KLA soldiers?

2 A. In Jabllanice? No.

3 Q. What about other areas around Jablanica? For example, Rznic?

4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I would caution Mr. Di Fazio --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At a later phase.

6 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- to be careful about leading.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio heard this admonition, more or less.

8 Not to be understood in this way, Mr. Di Fazio. You understand I'm

9 choosing the wrong word.

10 MR. DI FAZIO: I understand that.

11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


13 Q. What about Rznic?

14 Perhaps I can -- I'll help you again. Did -- did -- did the man

15 you knew as Toger, did you ever see him or know of him operating or being

16 based somewhere other than Jablanica?

17 A. I don't know. He had a base in Jabllanice. I know that he

18 engaged in training young soldiers. But when Gllogjan was attacked, he

19 remained in Gllogjan. And at a later phase he was appointed to operate as

20 a commander of a special unit in Irzniq.

21 Q. Thanks. It's that period of time that I'm interested in.

22 Tell the Trial Chamber, if you can, about the special unit.

23 Firstly, who -- who was responsible for creating this special unit?

24 A. I don't know. I know that Togeri was the commander. As to who

25 created that, I don't know. I know that Togeri trained the soldiers, that

Page 9971

1 he was their commander.

2 Q. You -- moments ago you said: "At a later phase he was appointed

3 to operate as a commander of a special unit in Irzniq." So you know that

4 he was appointed. My question is simply this: You've told the Trial

5 Chamber that you know that he was appointed to operate the -- as a

6 commander. Do you have any information as to who appointed him to that

7 position?

8 A. No, I don't.

9 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how you know that he was appointed

10 if you don't know who appointed him?

11 A. When we went to Gllogjan to assist them when it was attacked, most

12 of the group we were in remained to work with some young lads there. I

13 don't know who appointed him. And it was none of my business to find out.

14 Q. Did you ever know? Did you ever have any knowledge as to who it

15 was that created or appointed him as -- who appointed him as leader or

16 commander of this special unit?

17 A. According to rumours, I might make suppositions, but I wasn't

18 present in the meeting that appointed him or who the person who appointed

19 him was. There are, however, many rumours to that effect.

20 Q. Well, what information did you have as to who appointed him

21 commander of the special --

22 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry. Before the witness answers that question,

23 he's already indicated that the source of his supposition is rumours.

24 JUDGE ORIE: No. Mr. -- Mr. Emmerson, the question Mr. Di Fazio

25 puts to the witness, that what information he heard, is the first question

Page 9972

1 to explore further what the basis of that information was. And the

2 qualification as hearsay information, as rumours is not uncommon; so

3 therefore, Mr. Di Fazio may proceed.

4 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.


6 Q. What information did you have as to who -- who appointed him

7 commander of the special unit?

8 A. According to my personal opinion and according to what I heard

9 from other soldiers, I think it was Ramush who appointed him.

10 JUDGE ORIE: Perhaps, Mr. Di Fazio, we'll try to find out a bit

11 more detail.

12 You first said you were not present at the meeting where he was

13 appointed, so that suggests that he was appointed in a meeting.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose so. This must have been

15 so.

16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, some -- sometimes people can be appointed

17 outside of a meeting. When did you learn about a meeting, if at all?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't have any precise

19 information, because it was not part of my duty to find out what meetings

20 were held, where these meetings were held. But I heard.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shala, from --

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't understand the question.

23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You said, "I didn't have any precise

24 information." Tell us what information you had.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that for anyone to be

Page 9973

1 appointed to a certain post should be appointed by Ramush. That was my

2 personal opinion and maybe also the opinion of many others in the local

3 population there, because Ramush was the commander of that zone.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I asked you what information did you have.

5 When did you become aware of Togeri being appointed?

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After I went to Dujake.

7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, who told you?

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard from the soldiers.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember which soldier?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I very much regret it, but there

11 were many soldiers coming and going. They happened to pass through that

12 area. So I can't be precise from whom I'd heard.

13 JUDGE ORIE: What did the soldier tell you?

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That a very good unit is established

15 and that Togeri is its commander, a very capable unit. Someone called it

16 Suta. All sorts of names they were giving to it. Actually, it was a

17 special unit. And these are all based on hearsay.

18 JUDGE ORIE: How do you know? How do you know that the -- how do

19 you know that the soldier did not attend that meeting?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know what to

21 say. These were rumours circulating around. That was a time when such

22 rumours circulated. Nobody could attend a meeting where I stayed in

23 Dujake. Only at night I could move about, because during the day it was

24 impossible for us to move about.

25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, please proceed.

Page 9974


2 Q. And about how big was the unit, if you can tell us, please?

3 A. I don't know. I don't know how big it was. On an average, a unit

4 had 30, 40 members. But this is just a supposition. I didn't count them.

5 Maybe it had more. I don't know.

6 Q. Okay. And can you tell us what sort of uniform, if any, they

7 wore.

8 A. They wore brown uniforms.

9 Q. And what uniform did you wear as a -- as a military policeman?

10 A. Black uniforms.

11 Q. And when you saw the individual called Togeri, did you -- what

12 sort of uniform did he wear?

13 A. We could change the uniforms at will. Sometimes we wore

14 camouflage uniforms. Sometimes black uniforms. It was a time when we

15 were not obliged to wear a certain type of uniform. I personally wore

16 camouflage, black uniforms. When I washed one pair of uniform, I put on

17 the other.

18 Q. And -- but just let's go back to Togeri. What sort of uniform did

19 he have on when you saw him? Or did it change?

20 A. I don't remember accurately. He would normally wear brown or

21 camouflage uniform. Many years have passed since that time.

22 Q. And could -- was it easy to visit the location or base of these --

23 of this elite unit or special -- sorry, special unit?

24 A. I didn't have anything to do with that unit, but to go there you

25 had to ask for special permission, because the other units didn't meddle

Page 9975

1 with that unit.

2 Q. And do you know from whom -- or can you recall from whom you had

3 to get the special authorisation?

4 A. From Ramush.

5 Q. Thanks. You -- you mentioned earlier in your evidence that you

6 went to Dujak.

7 Can the witness be shown P159. And for the witness's assistance,

8 can we make the -- the -- the Albanian version a little bigger. Thank

9 you.

10 Just have a look at that document, please. What that document

11 says is that it's created on the 2nd of July. It's signed by the

12 commander, Ramush Haradinaj, and it ostensibly appoints you -- relocates

13 you to Dukagjin and it's dated the 2nd of July, 1998.

14 A. To Dujake, not Dukagjin.

15 Q. That's my -- my mistake. I'm sorry. To -- to Dujak.

16 Did you -- can you tell the Trial Chamber this: It's dated the

17 2nd of July, but when were you -- actually in Dujak? Around that time or

18 before or after?

19 A. On the same day that I was given the order.

20 Q. And that's your signature on the document, is it? I think it says

21 "Ujku." Is that correct?

22 A. Yes, that's correct.

23 Q. Thanks. I've finished with that.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: I may actually be on time. 5.15, if Your Honours

25 please.

Page 9976

1 Can the witness be shown 65 ter 2120.

2 JUDGE ORIE: It needs a number, Mr. Di Fazio?

3 MR. DI FAZIO: It will. It will.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be?

5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be P1188.

6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.


8 Q. All right. Have a -- have a read of that document.

9 Thank you.

10 And it -- is that your signature? In fact, is that your signature

11 that appears twice on the document?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And it's dated the 23rd of July, 1998, and it -- it's -- it

14 appears to you that you're asking that the Local Staff in Dujake be -- be

15 called to report, because they're not handling issues properly. And it

16 says that it went to the Operative Staff of the Dukagjini Zone.

17 Why did you create that document?

18 A. Because I didn't have any support there. I was -- my work was

19 undermined all the time, and I needed support. People engaged in all

20 sorts of propaganda and I needed to have some -- some support.

21 Q. Okay. So you were writing to the Operative Staff and trying to

22 get them to help you with your problems. Is that -- is that right?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that

25 document.

Page 9977

1 JUDGE ORIE: Any objection? Then it is P1188, admitted into

2 evidence.

3 Could I add one question. Mr. Shala, in this document it reads:

4 "The advantage is given to the less-preferred individuals." Who are

5 less-preferred individuals?

6 A. People who -- who had -- who had cooperated with the Serb police,

7 who had -- out of schools [as interpreted]. They were more favoured than

8 us, more preferred than us.

9 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.


11 Q. Did you actually deliver that document to the Operative Staff of

12 the Dukagjini Zone?

13 A. No. I sent it through a soldier. I didn't know whether it was

14 received by the Operational Staff, but the fact is they never received any

15 reply from them.

16 Q. Okay. Thank you. And you -- earlier today you were talking about

17 your various movements around the -- around the area. You said that --

18 and at one point you mentioned that you had gone to Glodjane. Can you

19 just put that into perspective for the Trial Chamber. I would just like

20 to be clear about that.

21 We know that you crossed the mountains. We know that you

22 eventually made your way to Jablanica. Now, at what point did you -- did

23 you go to Glodjane?

24 A. When Glodjane was attacked - I don't remember the exact date now -

25 we went there as reinforcement to protect that area as much as we could.

Page 9978

1 Q. Okay. And apart from that, did you ever spend any time in

2 Glodjane?

3 A. After this attack, when the soldiers returned we stayed there for

4 a couple of days. I don't know how many days. I didn't keep track of the

5 days. It was not my responsibility to do so. We were sheltered by the

6 villagers, because we were there to protect the village.

7 Q. Okay. But apart from this -- you're talking about the attack on

8 the Haradinaj compound. Is -- about that period of time. Correct?

9 A. Yes. Yes.

10 Q. Now, what I -- what I'm asking you, though, is -- is this: Apart

11 from that, did you ever go to Glodjane and spend some time there? A few

12 days or -- in carrying out your work and duties.

13 A. After the staff was relocated there, when it was considered a free

14 zone, I went there several times.

15 Q. And put that in relation to -- to Dujake, or -- or your period of

16 time in Dujak. Was that before or after you went to Dujak?

17 A. Before I went to Dujake.

18 Q. Okay. So you went to Jablanica. And apart from going to Glodjane

19 at the time that the Haradinaj compound was attacked, you stayed in

20 Jablanica. Then you went to Glodjane for a period of time. And then

21 finally to Dujak. Correct? Do I -- is that the sequence?

22 A. Yes.

23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: I think the witness has explained that before --

24 he went to Dujak before he went to Glodjane.

25 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, we -- we've got to be clear about this as

Page 9979

1 best we can.

2 Q. Think back and think of the sequence. His Honour wants some

3 clarity on this. You -- you've told us already about coming down to

4 Jablanica. Now, was Glodjane before you went to Dujak or after or

5 possibly both? I -- I don't know.

6 A. Yeah, it was before and after. Of course. Even the last time

7 when I left Kosova I went to Gllogjan again, because I had to go there

8 with the new soldiers to get arms and I needed financial support and a

9 written order. So from Dujake I went there afterwards as well.

10 Q. I see. Okay. So you went there from time to time as business --

11 as -- as your work required you to.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you -- were you ever based there for a period of time, such

14 as, for example, you were based in Jablanica and Dujak?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. For how long in Glodjane?

17 A. Maybe one week, two weeks. I can't be precise. I just

18 accompanied or escorted people who came and wanted to go to Gllogjan with

19 Musa -- we called him Uncle Musa. Together we escorted these people up to

20 Jabllanice. Sometimes we had to do it two or three times a night.

21 MR. DI FAZIO: I've just got one document left, if Your Honours

22 please.

23 Can the witness be shown 65 ter 2119.

24 JUDGE ORIE: It needs a number, I take it?

25 Mr. Registrar.

Page 9980

1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P1189.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

3 MR. DI FAZIO: We have the Albanian, I -- I hope. Yes. Thanks.

4 Q. Mr. Shala, could I just ask you to look at this particular

5 document. It -- I think it's safe to lead you on this. It seems you've

6 signed this document. And that's your signature on the bottom left-hand

7 corner. But it -- it's signed by Mr. Haradinaj and dated 29 June 1998 and

8 says --

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. It says this -- there's an authorisation for work-related visit.

11 Have -- are you familiar with that document? Have you ever seen

12 it before?

13 A. Yes, I have.

14 Q. And under what circumstances? Can you recall?

15 A. It was an authorisation I received to go together with some

16 soldiers to Albania to get arms.

17 Q. Okay. And did Mr. Haradinaj -- was this during one of the periods

18 of time when you were in Glodjane, if you can recall?

19 A. I don't know the exact time, but I went to Gllogjan for every

20 piece of document I needed.

21 Q. Okay. Thank you. And every time you went to collect weapons in

22 Albania, did you get something similar to this to enable you to -- to

23 carry out your duties?

24 A. Yes. Yes. Not only me. Everyone had to do that. Everyone who

25 was a member of the Dukagjin Plateau had to go there as a member of the

Page 9981

1 army. If he went there on behalf of a village, it was something else.

2 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that

3 document.

4 JUDGE ORIE: Any objections against P1189?

5 No objections. Admitted into evidence.

6 Mr. Di Fazio, does this conclude your ...

7 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.

8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.

9 Mr. Shala, we will have a break until 20 minutes to 6.00. After

10 the break, you'll be cross-examined by Defence counsel.

11 We'll adjourn until 20 minutes to 6.00.

12 --- Recess taken at 5.19 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 5.43 p.m.

14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.

15 MR. EMMERSON: I have no questions.

16 JUDGE ORIE: You have no questions.

17 Mr. Guy-Smith.

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: No questions.

19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.

20 MR. HARVEY: No questions.

21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shala --

22 [Trial Chamber confers]

23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Shala, this then concludes your testimony in this

24 court, because the Bench have no questions for you.

25 And, Mr. Di Fazio, of course, I cut you down in time.

Page 9982

1 MR. DI FAZIO: Well, thank you, Your Honours. And I know that I

2 exceeded my time limit, and all is well that ends well. I think I

3 essentially covered the main topics I wanted to.

4 JUDGE ORIE: So there's -- so therefore it's clear there's no

5 application under those circumstances where some time is left to use any

6 remaining time.

7 Mr. Shala, I would like to thank you very much for coming to The

8 Hague, for answering all the questions that were put to you, and I wish

9 you a safe trip home again.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too. And I wish you all

11 the success and justice.

12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.

13 [The witness withdrew]

14 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any procedural matters at this moment? I

15 remember that yesterday the Defence asked for additional time to more

16 thoroughly study the ten annexes of the previous witness.

17 Have you finished that already? If not --

18 MR. GUY-SMITH: The answer, as far as -- on behalf of Mr. Balaj

19 is, no, not yet. And we --

20 JUDGE ORIE: Not yet. No, that's understandable. I can imagine

21 it that came -- well, I couldn't say it that comes as a surprise, because

22 you presented the surprise.

23 MR. EMMERSON: It's purely an organisational matter --


25 MR. EMMERSON: -- and it's a question of transferring over

Page 9983

1 references, but we will have it resolved, I hope, by tomorrow.

2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, is there any witness you would -- could

3 call at this moment.

4 MR. DI FAZIO: There is not, if Your Honours please.

5 JUDGE ORIE: No. Then if there's no other procedural matter left

6 to discuss at this moment and if there's no other evidence to be heard,

7 the Chamber has no choice but to adjourn until tomorrow, quarter past

8 2.00, same courtroom.

9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 5.46 p.m.,

10 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 31st day of

11 October, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.