1 Wednesday, 31 October 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.24 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon to everyone.
6 Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor
9 versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 We have again a late start. That's sometimes due as well to the
12 huge flow of information and new matters that come in the morning before
13 court. And, of course, the Judges have a busy agenda anyhow but have to
14 deal with some of these matters, which sometimes cause us a late start.
15 Before we invite the Prosecution to call its next witness, I'd
16 like to make a few scheduling announcements. The Chamber has reviewed the
17 time still available under the 125 hours, and the Chamber also has
18 reviewed what still remains of the list of witnesses. Having reviewed
19 this, the Chamber expects the Prosecution to close its case presentation
20 on the 16th of November, because some videolink is still scheduled for
21 early that same week.
22 We all know which witnesses are still on our schedule for that
23 week to testify through videolink. The Chamber would like to invite the
24 Defence to announce on the 8th of November, that is, the last hearing day
25 of the week before, to inform the Chamber whether there's any intention to
1 make a 98 bis application once the Prosecution has finished the
2 presentation of its case.
3 The Chamber will also take care that on the 16th of November that
4 all the pending issues - the Chamber identified some six motions, some of
5 a very recent date, some dating back already a little bit more - that
6 decisions will be taken on these motions, and also that all decisions on
7 the admission of evidence - I'm mainly thinking about exhibits on which no
8 decision has yet been taken - that all these decisions are taken by the
9 16th of November.
10 Then if there's a wish to make an oral application under Rule 98
11 bis, the Chamber has reserved the Tuesday, the 20th of November to hear
12 such submissions.
13 I earlier said that sometimes the motions on which we still have
14 to decide came in only very recently. There is a very recent 92 bis
15 application. Two witnesses, including protective measures.
16 You're aware of that, Mr. Re, I take it?
17 MR. RE: Well, I signed it, yes, so I'm -- I am aware of it.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, one of the -- one of the questions the
19 Chamber in that respect would have is: One of the witnesses who is now
20 presented as a 92 bis witness also appeared on the list of witnesses that
21 would give viva voce evidence. May we take it that the application for 92
22 bis supersedes this scheduling for this witness?
23 MR. RE: That -- that's the intention of it, yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: That's the intention. Okay, then that's clear.
25 There's little time left. The Chamber would set a date for a
1 response to the 92 bis application, including protective measures, by
2 tomorrow close of business; that is, by the end of the day on the 1st of
3 November. The Chamber is aware that it's a very short time. We're all
4 under time pressure. That would be true for both Prosecution, Defence,
5 and the Chamber as well.
6 If there are no other matters, then I'd like to invite the
7 Prosecution to call its next witness.
8 As far as I understand, Mr. Re, the next witness will testify
9 through a videolink, and there's no request for protective measures.
10 MR. RE: That's correct. The next witness is Mr. Qerim Kuqi,
11 testifying via videolink from Pristina.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then could the videolink be activated.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: [Microphone not activated] Good afternoon. Is the
15 video and the sound --
16 Yes, I had forgotten to switch on my microphone. Can you hear me
17 in Kosovo and can you see me in Kosovo?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
20 Could the representative of the Registry in Kosovo introduce
21 herself and tell us who are present in the room.
22 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
23 Present in the room is Witness Kuqi, a technician, and myself.
24 JUDGE ORIE: I don't -- yes.
25 Yes. Mr. Kuqi, I was informed that your sight is not very good.
1 Is that true?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true. Yes, it is true.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Then I will invite everyone who will appear on the
4 screen for you to clearly introduce himself so that you know who you see.
5 At this moment, I take it that you see the Judge in the middle of
6 the three Judges. I'm Judge Orie. I'm the Presiding Judge. And I'm
7 speaking at this moment to you.
8 Mr. Kuqi, I also was informed that you cannot read. Is that
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct. I have only four
11 years of elementary school.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Kuqi, before you give testimony before this
13 Court, the Rules of Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn
14 declaration that you will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
15 but the truth. I will now say the words of this solemn declaration, and I
16 would like to invite you, first of all, to stand and then to repeat my
17 words, and I'll split it up in different portions. So therefore would you
18 please repeat the following words: "I solemnly declare."
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare.
20 JUDGE ORIE: "That I will speak the truth."
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That I will speak the truth.
22 JUDGE ORIE: "The whole truth."
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The whole truth.
24 JUDGE ORIE: "And nothing but the truth."
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Nothing but the truth.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Kuqi. Please be seated.
2 Mr. Kuqi, you will now be first examined by Mr. Re. He will
3 introduce himself as soon as he appears on your screen, and he's counsel
4 for the Prosecution.
5 Mr. Re, you may proceed.
6 WITNESS: QERIM KUQI
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 [Witness testified via videolink]
9 MR. RE: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Examination by Mr. Re:
11 Q. Mr. Kuqi, can you see and hear me clearly?
12 A. I can see you. Not very clearly, but I can. And I can hear you.
13 Q. Okay. My name is David Re. I'm the Prosecutor. And I'm going to
14 ask you some questions about your cousin Skender Kuqi. But first I'm
15 going to ask you some details about yourself. Okay?
16 I saw him saying something, but I didn't hear any interpretation.
17 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't hear anything.
18 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think that the witness said anything. But if
19 you would just verify with him his personal data, then we'll see how it
21 MR. RE: Okay.
22 Q. Is your name Qerim Kuqi? Were you born on the 11th of February,
23 1945 in Lutogllave in Kosovo?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. Are you a farmer by occupation and do you still live in
2 A. Yes, yes, I am a farmer.
3 Q. Is Lutogllave a small village, very close to the village of Zahaq?
4 On the road between Pec and Klina or Peja and Klina?
5 A. Yes. Yes.
6 Q. And are there about 100 to 150 houses in Lutogllave?
7 A. Yeah, that's correct.
8 Q. What was your relationship to Skender Kuqi?
9 A. He was my cousin.
10 Q. Was he born in May 1952?
11 A. I don't know his accurate birth date.
12 Q. How old was he in 1998? That's when he died.
13 A. I don't know how old he was.
14 Q. You were born in 1945. How much younger than you was he
16 A. Eight or nine years older. I can't be very precise.
17 Q. Did Skender Kuqi in 1998 live at the entrance of Lutogllave
18 village with his family, that's his wife, Zade, and his three sons, Genc
19 and the two other boys?
20 A. Yes.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, could we clarify the last -- could we clarify
22 the answer about being younger or older.
23 Could I ask you, Mr. Kuqi, were you older than Skender Kuqi was?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was older.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And when you said "eight to nine years older,"
1 you meant to say that you were that many years older than Skender Kuqi.
2 Is that correctly understood?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I was older.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
5 Please proceed.
6 MR. RE:
7 Q. And were you living in Lutogllave in the summer of 1998?
8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 Q. Did Skender Kuqi own a shop in Zahaq where he sold agricultural
11 A. Yes, he had a shop.
12 Q. Did he work there alone?
13 A. Yes, but there was also someone who helped him there.
14 Q. Was he a member of a political party, to your knowledge?
15 A. I don't know. I don't know that.
16 Q. Was his brother, Adem, a police officer?
17 A. Yes, he was a policeman in the former Yugoslavia, and he even now
18 is a policeman.
19 Q. In 1998 where was Adem working as a police officer?
20 A. He was unemployed for sure at that time.
21 Q. Can you just clarify that. You said he was a police officer but
22 unemployed at that time. What do you mean by that? When you said he's
23 now a police officer?
24 A. He was dismissed from the Serbian police.
25 Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you about the last time you saw Skender in
1 1998. Did you go to his shop?
2 A. Yes, I did.
3 Q. And was that in July 1998?
4 A. Yes, in July 1998 it was.
5 Q. Can you remember what time of day it was?
6 A. It was around 12.00, midday.
7 Q. Was the person who helped -- helped him working in the shop there
8 when you went there?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Did you speak to Skender?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did some other people come to the shop?
13 A. Yes. Yes, they did.
14 Q. Approximately how long after you got there did these other people
15 come to the shop?
16 A. About ten minutes it was. Less than ten minutes, I would say.
17 Q. How many of them were there?
18 A. Two people.
19 Q. Did they come on foot or by vehicle?
20 A. They came by car.
21 Q. What sort of car was it? Did you see?
22 A. I don't remember that.
23 Q. Were they men?
24 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] I apologise, but we've lost the
25 video for the moment. We still have audio but don't see you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then we will wait until the videolink has been
2 restored. Could you inform us as soon as the video is okay again.
3 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Certainly, Your Honour.
5 [Technical difficulty]
6 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber will wait for another minute to see
7 whether the videolink will be restored. If not, we'll remain stand-by but
8 we'll have a break.
9 MR. RE: Could I inform the Trial Chamber we do have another
10 witness -- we do have another witness in the building if the need arises,
11 who's ready to testify. And we have a second witness by videolink who
12 won't be available until later in the afternoon.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 JUDGE ORIE: As far as this afternoon is concerned, we do
15 understand that there's a second witness who will be available through
16 videolink at 4.30. We could not start with the next witness, because we
17 need another team of interpreters. Nevertheless, there are some not yet
18 pending but -- well, some procedural issues in relation to the witness to
19 appear after that. And since it will take at least another five minutes
20 to fix the -- the videolink, the Chamber would like to hear from the
21 parties, that is, about additional exhibits.
22 And I do not know whether there's any problem with the 92 ter
23 statement of the witness to come, the third witness of today.
24 Mr. Re, no protective measures for the witness who will testify
25 viva voce?
1 MR. RE: I don't think so. Mr. Dutertre has the witness. As far
2 as I know, none have been asked for as yet. And we certainly haven't put
3 an application on.
4 We have?
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well, application --
6 MR. RE: Everyone is shaking their heads. I don't think so.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. If there are any applications that are made
8 after we started today, of course, the Chamber might not be aware of them.
9 But could you check with Mr. Dutertre whether there's any reason
10 to ...
11 MR. RE: We're informed there's no application for protective
13 JUDGE ORIE: Then we're talking about Mr. Gojkovic, who will
14 testify, the judge of the court in Pec.
15 I hope that I understood all the exchanges until now, that is,
16 that there is an application for exclusion of certain attachments to his
17 92 ter statements, or at least exhibits related to that.
18 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. The -- the position is there's no objection
19 to be determined in relation to the text of the 92 ter statement.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
21 MR. EMMERSON: There are two exhibits, the admission -- which are
22 already on the 65 ter list and are exhibits to his 92 ter statement as to
23 which there are objections to their admission, but that is a matter that
24 needn't trouble the Trial Chamber at this stage.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll -- we'll see that. And then there's
1 addition to the list.
2 MR. EMMERSON: There is pending motion for the addition of six
3 documents in a rather different category to the list, which consist of
4 interviews conducted by investigating judges at the Pec district court.
5 And in respect of that, there is a motion to add those documents to the 65
6 ter exhibit list, and I hope that the Trial Chamber has received a written
7 response from the Haradinaj team, I think also from the Balaj team --
8 JUDGE ORIE: I think I've seen -- I think I have seen a response
9 on behalf of Ramush Haradinaj to Prosecution's motion to add six relevant
10 documents to its Rule 65 ter exhibit list. That's filed today. I've seen
11 that one. And I think I also have seen a Balaj ...
12 Yes, let me just check. Yes.
13 MR. RE: And there is a correction to the motion in that the
14 Prosecution reviewed its records and we did disclose the material on the
15 3rd of October in the original language. We received the translations on
16 the 29th and disclosed them the same day. Records were -- disclosure
17 records have been reviewed and we discovered that. We actually received
18 them into the Office on the 14th of September, and the registration and
19 disclosure process took until the 3rd of October.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I take it, just so we're clear about this, the
21 documents that were disclosed on the 3rd of October in their original
22 language, untranslated, did receive a Rule 66(B) number, did they not?
23 MR. RE: We disclosed them under Rule 66(B), if that's the
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. I just want to be clear so we're all
1 operating on the same page with regard to what information was received
2 when and what representations were made with regard to what it was.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I think the same is true of the translations when
4 they were served on the 29th as well, and it was sometime around 7.30
5 yesterday evening when the Prosecution notified the Defence with an
6 intention to deploy these documents as part of its case.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Is there anything to be added to what has already
8 been put on paper in this respect, or is there any need, Mr. Re, to
9 respond to the opposition in the Defence filings?
10 MR. RE: There's only one thing we would -- we would respond to,
11 and that is, in our submission, the submission of the Defence has -- is
12 legally -- is legally wrong in submitting that the documents are
13 inadmissible, and there's a decision of the Trial Chamber on the very
14 issue of whether statements were admissible into evidence. It was an oral
15 ruling. I just don't have the date here. But it related to Exhibits D56,
16 58, and 59, and they were put in through the cross-examination of witness
17 Rrustem Tetaj. And the Trial Chamber ruled the documents not made -- or
18 non-ICTY statements were admissible into these proceedings.
19 So insofar as the Defence motion, that response suggests they're
20 not admissible, because they have to be admitted under Rule 92 bis or ter
21 quater. That's legally incorrect and conflicts with the Trial Chamber
22 ruling on that very issue. The Prosecution is not attempting to admit
23 them under Rule 92 bis or quater or ter. But according to the same
24 applicable reasoning that the Trial Chamber employed in allowing the
25 Defence to admit into evidence Exhibits D56, 58, and 59, which were
1 statements made to authorities other than the ICTY and not made in
2 contemplation of legal proceedings here.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I think the point, sorry, if I may, just in
4 response to that -- the point that's made at paragraphs 5 and 6 of the
5 Defence response is that the documents that the Prosecution seek here to
6 rely upon are records of court proceedings, in the sense that they
7 constitute interviews by investigating judges of persons in custody. And
8 they argue to set out at paragraph 6 -- the documents that Mr. Re is
9 referring to were the medical reports in relation to Skender Kuqi and I
10 think one other UNMIK document. And -- and the point obviously made at
11 paragraph 6 of the Defence response relates to records of testimony of
12 those appearing before tribunals of national jurisdictions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would say that the Rule 92 bis would also
14 be the exclusive way of introducing this kind of material.
15 MR. EMMERSON: We -- we proceed from the premise that where the
16 Rule makes provision for the admission of material, in those circumstances
17 it would serve no purpose if -- indeed, the Rule would be unnecessary, if
18 there were no otherwise exclusionary principle.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. This same approach has not been taken in
20 relation to police statements given at the time.
21 MR. EMMERSON: In -- sorry, in the course of these proceedings?
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 MR. EMMERSON: The same approach has been taken, so far as the
24 Defence is concerned, in relation to the admission of that material, I
25 think, but the Trial Chamber has ruled certain of that material to be
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. No, I'm not saying what your position was
4 Let us see. We can't start with the -- neither of the two
5 remaining witnesses. Could we be informed about how much time it would
6 still take to re-establish the videolink in ...
7 Yes, I do understand that the videolink functions well again. I
8 therefore seek this to be confirmed by the representative of the Registrar
9 in Kosovo.
10 Can you see us? Can you hear us?
11 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes, Your Honour. We have been
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much.
14 Mr. Re, you may proceed.
15 MR. RE:
16 Q. Mr. Kuqi, let's just go back to where we were before the videolink
17 broke. I was asking you about the people who came in the car. You said
18 there were two of them. My next question: Were -- were they men?
19 A. Yes, they were.
20 Q. What were they dressed in? Civilian clothes or military clothes?
21 A. In -- they were wearing jackets and they were in civilian clothes.
22 Q. What sort of jackets?
23 A. Like military-like jackets.
24 Q. Can you describe them a little bit better?
25 A. I can't describe them any further.
1 Q. Were they coloured?
2 A. They -- they were masked, and there was black and there was some
3 red colour.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Just for the record, Mr. Re, I understood - but it
5 could be that I wrongly understood - the answer to your question "What
6 sort of jackets," the first word to be a reference to the colour rather
7 than the word "like." This will be checked.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. RE:
10 Q. You said you saw some black and red. Are you referring to the
12 A. No. No, no. They were wearing masks, and you couldn't see --
13 distinguish who these people were.
14 Q. Where was the black --
15 A. The mask was red and black.
16 Q. What did they do when they came to the shop?
17 A. When they entered the shop, they shouted in Serbian.
18 Q. What sort of accent did they have when they spoke in -- shouted in
20 A. They spoke very well Serbian, because I -- I speak Serbian. I
21 understand Serbian.
22 Q. Well, did they have any sort of Serbian accent? From their
23 accent, where did it appear that they had come from?
24 A. I think they were not Serbs.
25 Q. Why did you think they were not Serbs?
1 A. I think they were Serbs. I think they were Serbs, because --
2 because they only spoke Serbian.
3 Q. What did they shout?
4 A. "Hands up. Get out."
5 Q. Were they armed?
6 A. They were armed with automatic weapons.
7 Q. What sort?
8 A. What kind? I was so worried that I didn't see well what -- what
9 it was.
10 Q. What did they do with you and what did they do with Skender?
11 A. They shouted at him. They took him out to the garage, where they
12 kept the goods. I remained inside.
13 Q. Did either of the men remain with you when you remained inside?
14 A. There was only my uncle, who was, like, 10 metres away from the
15 door. And at the time they searched -- they searched my pockets to see if
16 I had anything in them.
17 Q. You just said "uncle." Are you referring to your cousin Skender
18 by saying "uncle," or was there another person there?
19 A. No. No, there was no other person once Skender was taken away.
20 There was no other in the room.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's Note: There was -- we misheard
22 the word.
23 MR. RE:
24 Q. Is "uncle" and "cousin" the same in the translation is what I'm
1 THE INTERPRETER: No. He may have said "dalje" [phoen], but it
2 was heard as "daje," which is the word for "uncle."
3 JUDGE ORIE: The further clarification is that only that person
4 was in the room, I think, would do Mr. Re. Was there any --
5 MR. RE: If the Chamber is satisfied that only Skender was there,
6 I'll move on.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, that's what the witness said. Yes.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. RE:
10 Q. All right. You said they searched your pockets to see if you had
11 anything in them. What did they do with their weapons when they were
12 speaking to you and speaking to Skender?
13 A. They had pointed them to my head and urged me not to move.
14 Q. How long were the men there for?
15 A. They stayed for two, three minutes. No more.
16 Q. You said they took your cousin Skender to the garage. Did you see
17 what they did with him in the garage?
18 A. No. No, I -- I couldn't see, because the door was closed and I
19 was inside the room, so I couldn't see what they were doing to him.
20 Q. What happened to Skender?
21 A. They took him in a car, and I don't know where they took him to.
22 JUDGE HOEPFEL: May I ask if you saw or observed that taking him
23 in a car.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw that they left together in a
1 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. But I would like to know how do you know
2 that? My name is Frank Hoepfel, by the way. I am also a Judge.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you mean?
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Yes. You saw that they left together in a car.
5 And can you tell us what happened in between, before the car left?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't know. I don't know what
7 to say, because they were talking at a place away from where I was. They
8 were inside the garage, and I couldn't hear or see them in there.
9 JUDGE HOEPFEL: And was the car in the garage, or how happened it
10 then --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The car was in the garage.
12 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Thank you.
13 MR. RE:
14 Q. You said they arrived in a car and they left in a car. How many
15 cars were there?
16 A. They came in one car and there was Skender's car in the garage.
17 Q. Did they leave in their car or Skender's car or both cars?
18 A. Both.
19 Q. Which car was Skender in?
20 A. His own.
21 Q. Was he driving?
22 A. I think so.
23 Q. You said there were two men. Were they in their car or was one of
24 them in Skender's car?
25 A. One was in Skender's car.
1 Q. And where did the two cars go? By that I mean in which direction.
2 A. The direction of Kline.
3 Q. And were the two --
4 A. It was Kline, yes.
5 Q. Okay. And were the two cars traveling together in the direction
6 of Klina?
7 A. Yes, one after the other.
8 Q. As far as you could see, did Skender go voluntarily with these two
9 armed men wearing military-like jackets and masks on their faces?
10 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Are you sure this is a question which would lead
11 to some result? Can you tell from -- by looking if somebody does
12 something voluntarily?
13 MR. RE: I'm not -- I'm not going to answer that in front of
14 the -- in front of the witness, with respect, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Of course.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand.
17 MR. RE:
18 Q. All right. You said you saw two armed men wearing military-like
19 jackets, automatic weapons, masks on their faces. They came into the
20 shop, put a gun in your face, said, "Hands up," took Skender to the
21 garage, then they drove off with Skender. As far as you see, from what
22 you saw, did Skender go voluntarily - that's of his own free will - with
24 A. I don't know whether it was a voluntary departure or not. I
25 couldn't know.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, could we give it another try to find the
2 colour of the jacket.
3 Mr. Kuqi, you said these were military-like jackets. Could you
4 tell us what the colour of the jackets was?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't say the colour, but it was
6 like camouflage. Like the rest of the army have similar jackets.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And camouflage we find in different colours again.
8 I've seen greenish, I've seen brownish, I've seen bluish camouflage
9 uniforms. Could you tell us which or perhaps a combination of these
10 colours this was.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't -- I don't know what to say,
12 but they were camouflage jackets.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
15 MR. RE:
16 Q. Do you remember whether these two men had any patches or insignia
17 on their jackets or masks?
18 A. No. They had no insignia.
19 Q. Now, where were the KLA stationed in July 1998?
20 A. They were stationed in Gllogjan.
21 Q. Did you know whether they were stationed in Jablanica at the time?
22 A. I don't know. I'm not clear about the question.
23 Q. Were the KLA in your village at the time when Skender left with
24 these men?
25 A. Yes. Yes, there were KLA members there in the village.
1 Q. Where were the nearest Serbian forces - by that I mean the Serbian
2 police and military - to your village at the time?
3 A. I don't know accurately, but I know that the police station is not
4 further than 5 or 6 kilometres away. It was the area occupied by the Serb
6 Q. Was there a KLA staff or headquarters in your village at the time
7 Skender was taken away or left with the men?
8 A. No. No, there wasn't.
9 Q. Did you tell anyone what had happened to Skender?
10 A. I told Skender's brother of what happened. I told it to Adem.
11 Q. What did he do about it?
12 A. He asked me who they were, and I said to him that they spoke
13 Serbian, so they may be Serbian. This is what I told him.
14 Q. Do you know about any relatives of Skender going to KLA HQ, or
15 headquarters, in Jablanica to find out what happened to Skender?
16 A. I know only what his brother told me.
17 Q. What did his brother tell you?
18 A. He told me that Skender is dead.
19 Q. Did he tell you what inquiries he and other members of the family
20 had made to find out what had happened to Skender?
21 A. I don't know who went where.
22 Q. What about Abdulla Kuqi and Amrush Kuqi? What did they do to find
23 out what happened to Skender?
24 A. Adem went to ask about the fate of his brother.
25 Q. Who did he go to ask?
1 A. I don't know where he went. I don't know whom he asked or where
2 he went. I know nothing more than that.
3 Q. When did you find out -- sorry, how long after Skender left with
4 the two men did you find out that he was dead?
5 A. I don't know the exact time, but I only know that his brother was
7 Q. Okay. Was it within days or weeks or months?
8 A. It was within weeks, I think.
9 Q. Were you told how he had died?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did Skender's brothers, Sokol Kuqi or Adem Kuqi tell you who they
12 thought were the men who Skender left with, that is, whether they were
13 Albanians or Serbs?
14 A. No, they didn't say anything to me.
15 Q. Do you remember whether Skender was, apart from owning the shop,
16 was a teacher?
17 A. I don't remember. I don't remember well. Probably he was a long
18 time ago.
19 Q. What sort of car did Skender have, the one that was in the garage
20 and the one he left in?
21 A. It was a Mercedes. I don't recall its colour.
22 Q. What can you tell us about Skender's health condition? You said
23 he was running a shop. What was his general health condition like in July
25 A. To my recollection, he was in a good health condition.
1 Q. Do you remember him ever -- ever making complaints about illnesses
2 around that time?
3 A. No. No, no, I don't remember that.
4 Q. And how often did you see him generally and in the period leading
5 up to when you last saw him?
6 A. Whenever I wanted to buy something in his store, I saw him.
7 Q. Well, how often was that?
8 A. I can't say. Not very often.
9 Q. And just to conclude, was that the last time you ever saw Skender,
10 the time you saw him leave with those men in his car in July 1998?
11 A. Yes, it was the last time.
12 MR. RE: That's the examination-in-chief.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
14 Mr. Emmerson, I do understand from your nodding that there's no
15 need to cross-examine the witness.
16 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith? Mr. Harvey?
18 MR. HARVEY: No need either, thank you.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Kuqi, since Defence counsel have no questions for
21 you and since the Bench has no questions for you either, this concludes
22 your testimony before the -- this Chamber of the Tribunal. I'd like to
23 thank you very much that you came and that you've answered all questions
24 put to you, and I hope that you will have a safe trip home again.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Then although the videolink should remain on
2 stand-by, we can disconnect at this very moment.
3 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
4 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
5 JUDGE ORIE: For logistical and practical purposes, the Chamber
6 understands that it does not make any sense at this moment to start with
7 the third witness scheduled for today and then to interrupt that again for
8 the videolink, so therefore, unless the parties have any useful other
9 suggestion, we'll have a relatively long break.
10 We might come back a bit early, before the videolink can start, so
11 as to -- perhaps if we are already at the point to deliver any decisions
12 on the six exhibits to be added to the exhibit list or if there's any
13 other matter the Chamber would have to consider during the break.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I do have one.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I think Mr. -- I was looking at Mr. Re at this
17 Mr. Re, is there --
18 MR. RE: It's just that we have some possible concerns about
19 scheduling and time. We have another witness scheduled to come tomorrow.
20 I think it's Witness 37. Judge Gojkovic, Mr. Dutertre says he'll be about
21 half an hour in examination-in-chief with him. And we understand the
22 witness is actually -- the other witness for the videolink is actually
23 traveling and hasn't reached the office yet and is estimated to be here by
24 4.30 but there's no guarantee that --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The problem is interpreters teams.
1 MR. RE: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: That's what I understand to be the problem. We can't
3 switch from teams every half an hour. That -- if that can be resolved, of
4 course the Chamber will have no problem --
5 MR. RE: They're waving, Your Honour. They're waving.
6 JUDGE ORIE: I see that there's some communication. If you
7 would --
8 Are there no problems as far as interpreter teams are concerned?
9 I'm listening to the English Channel, but I can --
10 If you could point at what channel --
11 THE INTERPRETER: We're supposed to work until 7.00. Anyway, the
12 team is ready to work until 7.00.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. Let's -- if that is the case ...
14 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
15 JUDGE ORIE: There seems to have been a miscommunication as far as
16 problem with changing interpreters teams is concerned.
17 The Chamber then suggests that we have a break for 25 minutes;
18 that -- then, Mr. Dutertre, you said half an hour.
19 I'm looking at you and you're not nodding "yes" but you're nodding
20 very strongly "yes."
21 Then we could start examination-in-chief of that witness then
22 switch to the videolink to Kosovo again and start cross-examination after
23 the break.
24 The Chamber during this break now will also further consider the
25 issue of the six exhibits to be added, and, of course, admission of those
1 exhibits is -- although a separate matter, is linked to it. We'll also
2 consider whether we do it in once or whether we split it up. And we also
3 consider whether we'll do it on a provisional basis or whether we'll give
4 decisions right away, firm decisions. If it would be provisional
5 decisions then as we have done before, then, of course, an opportunity --
6 and further opportunity will be given to make submissions on the matter.
7 We'll have a break until --
8 Yes, Mr. Guy-Smith, I apologise.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to that specific issue. Because the
10 documents were identified as 66(B) documents, I think it might be of some
11 importance for the Chamber to know whether or not there was an informal
12 translation of those documents or some other form of translation of those
13 documents that the Prosecution had within its own possession, custody, and
14 control which allowed them to define the documents in that fashion,
15 because we had no knowledge at all whatsoever apart from the designation
16 of the Rule and the documents in a language --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- untranslated until the very late day.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me understand. If the Office of the
20 Prosecution receives documents, of course they would not know what's in
21 those documents, so they'll ask for a translation to be made in order to
22 identify --
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: But often --
24 JUDGE ORIE: -- the importance of the -- so, therefore, the
25 question whether there was already a provisional translation available at
1 the time.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Oftentimes, the Prosecution, I believe, there's
3 been representations made during this trial, the Prosecution gets an
4 informal understanding of what the documents may be or an informal
5 translation so they have some idea what the import or the relevance of
6 those documents are.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, do I -- is it you or Mr. Dutertre who could
8 answer that question?
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 MR. RE: The information I have is that I think we received almost
11 70 pages -- we had someone read through them and they prepared one or two
12 lines on those which were potentially relevant and then we had them
13 translated. That was -- we only received the translation on the 29th,
14 which is two days -- two days ago.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You had not made up your mind at that moment
16 whether or not to use them.
17 MR. RE: No, we -- we didn't make up our mind till we received the
18 translations and read the full documents on --
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 MR. RE: -- Monday.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I do understand that your information about
22 the content was minimal at the time, limited to just a couple of lines.
23 MR. RE: Correct.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Harvey.
25 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, for the avoidance of doubt, on behalf
1 of the Brahimaj team, we do join -- we have not made a formal written
2 opposition, but we -- we are particularly concerned by the page -- what
3 appears as page 51 of the proposed additional documents, which is a -- a
4 wildly speculative hearsay-upon-hearsay reference to Jabllanice, and to
5 that extent we would wish to add that to the table of objections already
6 filed by our colleagues. Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's on the record.
8 We have a break until 4.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 3.33 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 4.10 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, will it be you who will examine the
12 next witness?
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then an application was made for protective
15 measures, and we have not yet received responses from the Defence.
16 Mr. Emmerson.
17 But first we have to go into -- are we in private session at this
18 moment? We should be in private session. And, of course, the picture of
19 the videolink was not shown to the public, I take it, Mr. Registrar.
20 THE REGISTRAR: No, Your Honours, it wasn't. And we're now in
21 private session.
22 [Private session]
11 Page 10012 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
7 For the next witness to be called, there was an application for
8 protective measures: Pseudonym, voice distortion, and face distortion.
9 The application was not opposed by Defence. The Chamber grants the
10 protective measures, although several grounds were supporting the request
11 that the Chamber limits itself at this moment to establishing that the
12 witness and/or his family members are still living in Kosovo, that the
13 anticipated testimony may antagonise persons in an unstable situation in
14 Kosovo, as agreed upon by the parties. These are the reasons, not to say
15 that the other reasons would not be valid, but these reasons in itself
16 justify the granting of protective measures.
17 We then return in -- no, we stay in open --
18 Yes, Mr. Di Fazio.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: [Microphone not activated] I'd like to introduce
20 his evidence, if I may, in private session.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You would like to start in private session.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, that's right.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Then we turn in private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 10014-10018 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
6 MR. DI FAZIO:
7 Q. Witness, I want you to think about your last -- your -- your late
8 brother and when you last saw him in 1998. Can you remember the time --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- the time of year that you last saw him?
11 A. I don't know for sure. I don't want to lie to you, sir. I don't
12 want to lie. I don't know the exact time. Without being 100 per cent
13 sure, I don't want to tell you.
14 Q. All right. Okay. Thanks for that. But can you tell us perhaps
15 the season that you last saw him in? Was it, for example, summer or -- or
16 autumn? Can you tell us that?
17 A. It's an approximate time that I will give you. I think it was
18 summer-time. I'm not -- not summer, but spring. Approximately. I am not
19 sure. I don't want to lie to you.
20 MR. DI FAZIO: Your Honours, I think we're having a little trouble
21 with transcription. I think that the audibility of -- of the translation
22 is not very good. I'm certainly having to resort to the written word, and
23 I gather that that's causing problems for our ...
24 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any problems at this moment?
25 Yes, there are? Could it -- could it be resolved?
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that the problems have been resolved.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, great.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, you may proceed.
5 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. I'm grateful to Your Honours for that.
6 Q. Okay. You're not sure, but you think it might have been spring.
8 And where -- where was your late brother --
9 A. I'm not certain. I don't want to lie to you.
10 Q. Okay. Good. Thank you.
11 Where was your late brother living when you last saw him?
12 A. His house was in the same village with me. His wife was from
13 (redacted) and her father was elderly and ill, so his wife went to live
14 with his -- with her father to take care of him.
15 Q. Thanks for that. Thanks for that information.
16 How -- how old was your brother? Your late brother.
17 A. After me. He was younger than me. But I think it was two or --
18 he was two or three years younger than me. I am not very sure. I can
19 show you my identity card for you to see how old I am. And that would
20 deduce his age.
21 Q. Yes. I don't think that's necessary. I think we can get -- get
22 an idea. Thank you very much.
23 Anyway, he was about -- he was only about two or three youngers --
24 years younger than you. Can you tell us something about his physical
25 condition? Did -- just wait for my question. What -- what I'd like --
1 what I'd like to know -- just wait --
2 A. He was ill.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 71, would you please listen to me for a
4 second. Wait until Mr. Di Fazio has formulated his question. Just wait
5 until he invites you to answer the question so that you don't miss
6 anything, and it will certainly save time if you wait and listen well.
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thanks.
9 A. Okay. I will.
10 Q. What I'd -- what I'd like to know is about your brother -- your
11 brother's physical condition. Did he have all his fingers?
12 A. He was -- he had only one finger in one hand because of an
13 accident with a bomb. When it was the first war he found a bomb, a
14 grenade, and that exploded and cut off his fingers. But he was -- he was
15 never in the army. He didn't go to school either, because he became
16 handicapped, and he received social assistance. He was disabled. He was
18 Q. Thanks. And your brother had suffered that disability years --
19 years before, I understand. Is that right? Years before 1998.
20 A. When he was at the age to go to school, he didn't go to school
21 because he was diagnosed as disabled.
22 How can I tell it to you? How can I say?
23 Q. That's fine.
24 A. He had problems.
25 Q. That's fine. And thank you for explaining all of that.
1 And did he get a pension for -- for being -- for being disabled?
2 A. Yes, he received economic assistance, social assistance.
3 Q. All right.
4 A. The entire town of Gjakova knows that.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. He was disabled, as I said.
7 Q. Okay. And he was getting that pension for disability in 1998 as
9 A. I don't know, but before that, yes. During the Communist regime
10 he -- he received that assistance because of that problem he has. I don't
11 know how much he received, but he did receive an allowance for being
13 Q. Okay. All right. Thank you.
14 Now, I want you to think back to the period of time soon after
15 your brother disappeared. Sorry, the -- let me rephrase that. Soon after
16 the period of time you last saw your brother. In that time, did you see a
17 gentleman named Shkelzen Haradinaj?
18 A. Yes. Once only. They -- they told me it was Shkelzen, because I
19 didn't know who he was.
20 Q. Okay. Just wait and let me ask you the -- just wait. Don't
21 speak. And let me ask you the questions. Okay? So that we can get
22 through this quickly. All right?
23 I want you to tell the Judges who are listening here about how it
24 is that you came to see this man Shkelzen Haradinaj and where you saw him
25 and how you got to see him. So can you -- can you tell us that, please.
1 How was it that you came to be in the company of Shkelzen Haradinaj?
2 A. In Gllogjan, yes.
3 Q. So how did you get from wherever you were to Glodjane?
4 A. Yes. Yes. He asked me, "Do you smoke?" I said, "Yes." And then
5 he said, "Do you have cigarettes with you?" I said, "No," and then he
6 gave me two cigarettes.
7 Q. No, no, just --
8 A. He asked one of the boys who were there, "Give him some tobacco."
9 Q. Just listen to my question. Before you saw Shkelzen Haradinaj and
10 before you went to Glodjane, were you living at your house?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Okay. Were you taken from your house --
13 A. Can you repeat the question, please.
14 Q. Okay. At the time that you -- you saw Shkelzen Haradinaj or just
15 before that occasion, were you living at your house -- at your house, at
16 your home? Were you just living at home?
17 A. Yes, I was living at home.
18 Q. All right.
19 A. And I went there from my home.
20 Q. Okay. Great. Thank you. Now, what I'd like you to do is to tell
21 the Judges how you got from your home to Glodjane. How did you -- how was
22 that accomplished? How did you do that?
23 A. How did I go there?
24 Q. Yeah.
25 A. By what means you are asking me or ...?
1 Q. That's right. How did you get there? Did you go in a car or did
2 you -- someone take you? Did you go on a bicycle? How was it done?
3 A. I went there by car. By car.
4 Q. Okay. And why did you go there? How did you come to be going --
5 leaving your house to go to Glodjane?
6 A. We had a problem. They asked about a young man, who he was. And
7 I said -- where he was. I said, "He is not here." They said, "Come with
8 us to Gllogjan." And they asked me where he was, and I said again, "No, I
9 don't know where he is." And then they asked me if I smoked, and they
10 gave me those two cigarettes, and as I said to you earlier, I returned
11 home after that.
12 Q. Okay. And I'd just like to ask you a few more questions about
13 this. You say "they." Who -- who was -- who came to your house and asked
14 you these things? Who was it?
15 A. Those who came to my house, they came from the headquarters.
16 Q. And --
17 A. Are you asking me about the persons who came to my house?
18 Q. Yes. Yes, I am. I'd like to know some things about them and I'd
19 like to know what you can tell us about these -- these people. First --
21 A. Yes, these people told me to go with them and to tell them where
22 that's -- that young boy was. I went with them and I replied that I
23 didn't know where that young man was. I took these two cigarettes that I
24 mentioned and I returned home.
25 Q. Okay. And these -- these men who came from the headquarters, were
1 they soldiers?
2 A. Yes, yes, soldiers.
3 Q. Were they members of the KLA?
4 A. Yes. Yes.
5 Q. And they were the ones who took you from your house to the
6 Glodjane headquarters.
7 A. Yes. Yes, yes.
8 Q. Okay. And who was -- you don't have to mention names, but can you
9 just tell us about the young boy that you've been telling us about, who
10 they were asking you about. Who did you understand that to be?
11 A. Where I went? There?
12 Q. No, look --
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Perhaps, if Your Honours please, we could go into
14 private session for a moment it might be advisable, I think.
15 JUDGE ORIE: We'll go into private session.
16 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
11 MR. DI FAZIO:
12 Q. Okay. Now, you've only told us part of the story, and we want to
13 hear all of the story. You've told us that some KLA men came and they
14 were from Glodjane and they took you there. And now we want to know what
15 happened once you arrived there. We want you to tell the story --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- of what happened when you arrived at the headquarters in
18 Glodjane. Can you tell us who -- who you saw there?
19 A. Nothing happened. They asked me there, "Where is he?" I said, "I
20 don't know." They asked me whether I smoked, and I said, "Yes." "Do you
21 have cigarettes?" I said, "No." They gave me two packets of cigarettes.
22 And they said, "Do you want us to drive you home, to take you home, or are
23 you going home on yourself -- by yourself?" And I said, "I'm going there
24 by myself." And that's how I came back home.
25 Q. All right. Now, you've already told us that you -- you -- just a
2 [Prosecution counsel confer]
3 MR. DI FAZIO:
4 Q. Yes, I think moments ago you said that Shkelzen Haradinaj was at
5 Glodjane. I don't want to misquote you, but I think that's what you said.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry, I think --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
8 MR. EMMERSON: -- if perhaps you check the transcript, I think the
9 witness said "I was told."
10 JUDGE ORIE: One -- one second.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. I didn't know him.
12 Later on I learned that it was Shkelzen and he -- he was -- he was a very
13 nice man, and he even offered me cigarettes and gave me two packets to
14 take with me.
15 MR. DI FAZIO:
16 Q. I see. So -- okay. Well -- thank you. So later you learned that
17 the man who gave you cigarettes was Shkelzen Haradinaj and he was a very
18 kind man. Okay.
19 A. It was after that that I asked other people. I said, "Who is that
20 man?" And they told me, "He is Shkelzen Haradinaj." I'd never heard of
21 him before.
22 Q. All right. And did -- was the young boy the only topic of
23 conversation, or did you speak about something else as well?
24 A. As far as I can recall, because time has passed and I can't
25 remember things that happened three days ago, but the only thing I will
1 tell you, that we got along very well and we had no problem and they gave
2 me those cigarettes. We -- we had a good time.
3 Q. Can you tell us, how long had your late brother -- how long had
4 your late brother been missing by the time you had this encounter with
5 Mr. Shkelzen Haradinaj?
6 A. I did not know when he had disappeared, when he had gone to
7 Gllogjan; I did not know that he had disappeared, I did not know that yet.
8 After the war had ended, I heard from people… I did not know at all,
9 I thought he was alive; I did not know whether he had disappeared or not,
10 I only heard from people what they said, I did not know for sure.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Would Your Honours just bear with me for a moment,
13 And would you just wait a moment, Witness.
14 [Prosecution counsel confer]
15 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
16 Q. Witness, I'd just like you to have a look at a -- at a -- at a
17 video. And look and listen as carefully as you can to this particular
18 video that's going to be played to you. And the -- the -- it's an
19 excerpt, if Your Honours please, and it's referred to as 65 ter 2125.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Does it need a number, Mr. Di Fazio?
21 MR. DI FAZIO: I think it will eventually. Yes, it will.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P1192.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Are there any --
25 MR. DI FAZIO: And just --
1 JUDGE ORIE: -- any words spoken on the video?
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. And I think that you should have a -- a
4 JUDGE ORIE: Well, more important is that the booth have the
5 transcript. Of course, the Chamber always would like to have it as well.
6 But if it's in English on the screen, then ...
7 Please proceed.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Do Your Honours have the transcript?
9 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think we have it. But let's --
10 MR. DI FAZIO: All right. We'll proceed. Thank you.
11 Just -- would Your Honours just bear with me.
12 [Prosecution counsel confer]
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you. If Your Honours please, this is an
14 excerpt from another exhibit in the case. You'll be informed of that
15 number shortly.
16 Secondly, it should be in private session, because it will depict
17 the witness.
18 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 10030-10053 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 71, I would like to thank you very much for
16 coming to the Tribunal, although you remained in Kosovo, and for having
17 answered the questions that were put to you. We wish you the best with
18 your health and we hope that you'll be back home in time.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And my best regards to everyone
20 present. Thank you very much.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May God give you a long life.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that, Witness 71. We --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bye-bye.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, we can disconnect the videolink.
1 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
2 JUDGE ORIE: We had a -- first of all, we are in open session. I
3 think we can pull the curtains up again. The curtains were down in order
4 to disenable anyone to look at the screens in the courtroom. It was not
5 closed session.
6 We did cut the pause rather short beyond for what is usually
7 acceptable for the interpreters and the technicians.
8 Now, we could do two things: Either to -- at this moment to have
9 an additional break of ten minutes and then to continue, or to continue
10 right away and to stop ten minutes earlier. I would have a slight
11 preference for the latter solution, if the technicians in the booth --
12 THE INTERPRETER: So do the interpreters.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And since Mr. Dutertre promised us that he
14 would not need more than 30 minutes, I would like to enquire with the
15 Defence how much time as matters stand now would be needed for
16 cross-examination. I'm not suggesting that we could finish for the day,
17 not at all. It even makes it easier to stop ten minutes early if there is
18 no chance that we'll finish today.
19 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, I think there is no chance.
20 JUDGE ORIE: There is no chance.
21 MR. EMMERSON: I would have thought somewhat in the region of an
22 hour and a half.
23 JUDGE ORIE: That's good. So we could start cross-examination
24 today and then would -- we'd finish for the day at ten minutes to 7.00.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Do you need any further indication? It would be
2 JUDGE ORIE: Well, most --
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Tomorrow.
4 JUDGE ORIE: -- most important for me was that by stopping at ten
5 minutes to 7.00, that we would not miss a chance to -- to conclude the
6 testimony of the next witness today.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Absolutely not.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, the Chamber is interested to know how much
9 time, but we'll hear that from you at a later stage.
10 Mr. Dutertre, are you ready to call your next witness?
11 [Prosecution counsel confer]
12 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters can't hear Mr. Dutertre.
14 JUDGE ORIE: For one reason or another the interpreters cannot
15 hear you, Mr. Dutertre. Would you please repeat what you've just said.
16 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
17 Is there a decision regarding the six documents that we wanted to
19 JUDGE ORIE: There is a partial decision.
20 Good cause has been shown to add them to the list, which doesn't
21 say anything about whether these are exhibits that are admissible.
22 The Chamber would have to look at them in quite some detail to see
23 what the merits are in the Defence submissions.
24 You didn't make it that easy for us, Mr. Dutertre, because when we
25 tried to decipher what was in front of us, we noticed that you sometimes
1 attach the English translation of another statement to one statement of
2 Mr. Re and then we find the translation of -- after some research, seems
3 to be the translation of the statement of a witness B.
4 We have not had sufficient time to go through it in sufficient
5 detail to finally make up our mind as to whether they could be admitted,
6 yes or no, but the Chamber does not at this moment object that these
7 exhibits would be marked for identification, and, of course, some formal
8 questions as to, Do you recognise this report, Was it you who took the
9 statement? These, of course, might be relevant, these -- such questions
10 might be relevant at this moment, but nothing as of yet has been said, as
11 far as admission into evidence, and what weight, if any at all, should be
12 given to the content of it.
13 Then we wait until the witness comes in.
14 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Mr. President.
15 I apologise for the translation problems, for the wrong translation being
16 attached to the document. The Defence had already voiced some objections
17 as to the annexes that were attached to the testimony of -- or the
18 statement. This had to do with two annexes. And we had moved along,
19 which was to maintain our wish to have them tendered into evidence.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's -- that's about what happened to the
21 medical people who went for -- I think for health care for the children --
22 preventive health care for the children.
23 Mr. Dutertre, there seems to be also a newspaper article. Does
24 that add anything to -- to the other sources? Do you think this more ...?
25 We'll come to that.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Mr. Gojkovic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence in this Court, the Rules of
5 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration that
6 you'll speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Madam
7 Usher will now hand out to you the text of that declaration, and I invite
8 you to make the solemn declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
10 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Gojkovic.
12 Please be seated.
13 WITNESS: RADOMIR GOJKOVIC
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE ORIE: I don't think I have to explain to you court
16 proceedings, Mr. Gojkovic. You'll first be examined by Mr. Dutertre,
17 counsel for the Prosecution.
18 You may proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honour.
20 Examination by Mr. Dutertre:
21 Q. [Interpretation] First of all, I would like to present the 92 ter
22 witness statement, and we have a binder that has been prepared for that
23 purpose. And Madam Usher can now give it to the witness, but it is
24 already the 65 ter exhibit number 2102, which I'd like to have displayed
25 on the screen.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be ...?
2 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that would be P1193.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Marked for identification for the time
5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Without further ado, I can already
6 ask the witness to refer to his binder.
7 Q. Witness, would you mind taking the binder in order to look at the
8 exhibit number which is the 92 ter witness statement. You have the text
9 in Serbian and in English.
10 Do you have it in front of you?
11 A. No.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Could you look at your screen. Most likely you'll
13 find it on your screen as well.
14 Madam Usher, is the ...?
15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Judge, I have two questions regarding this document which is put
17 to you by Madam Usher. Do you remember --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, may I ask you the following: With full
19 respect for the function of this witness in his domestic jurisdiction, I
20 think it might be confusing if we have on the record -- if you were
21 addressed by "Your Honour" or by "Judge." That's not in any way to not
22 fully respect your position in your jurisdiction, but in, of course, in
23 this courtroom, Mr. Gojkovic, as -- if anyone would understand this, it
24 would be you, I take it, that you are Mr. Gojkovic, who is a witness in
25 this case.
1 Mr. Dutertre, would you please address, again with full respect
2 for the function, the position held by Mr. Gojkovic, would you please do
3 that in order to avoid confusion on the record.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Absolutely. Yes, of course.
6 Q. Mr. Gojkovic, do you remember signing the document you have in
7 front of you and which is displayed on the screen on the 23rd of October,
9 A. Yes, it's correct that I signed that document.
10 Q. Does this represent the truth?
11 A. Everything that I said in the document is the truth.
12 Q. One last thing. Were the questions that were put to you during
13 this interview, the said interview on the 23rd of October, to be asked
14 again of you today, would you answer in the same way?
15 A. Yes, definitely I would give the same answers. I would answer the
16 same way.
17 Just this, if I may add. If I may?
18 JUDGE ORIE: Please tell us, would you.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are certain vague statements
20 or assertions in the statement, but as a whole they do not change the
21 content of the key facts that are contained in my statement.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's clear.
23 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Unless Mr. Gojkovic wants to add
24 anything, I would like to tender this statement into evidence.
25 JUDGE ORIE: If there's anything at this moment you'd like to add,
1 please do so, Mr. Gojkovic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have nothing to add now, but if
3 there are any questions, I am prepared, if I can, of course, to answer
4 them, in view of the time that has passed since then. It's been eight
5 years since the events.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And you said whatever you found in the statement
7 is -- is -- is the truth, and the statement reflects -- the written
8 version of the statement reflects what you said in your interview?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it does.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. Considering the -- the extensive experience
12 the gentleman has had in the law, for him to make a comment that there are
13 certain vague statements or assertions in the statement, I have some
14 concern with regard to whether or not as he has reviewed his statement he
15 believes there should be some corrections or not.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I asked him whether he would have to add
17 something. And if something is vague usually --
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm more --
19 JUDGE ORIE: What precision there is, the more need there might be
20 for questions. If there is any matter, I think you can deal with that in
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, the reason I'm raising it now is I don't
23 want to get in this position that we've gotten in with other witnesses
24 when we have actually been discussing their statements with them and they
25 have indicated that they were not aware of something that they had
1 actually signed or in some other fashion had not been so attentive to the
2 statement. We could not rely upon it. Since the 92 ter statement does
3 take the position of being testimony.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's on the record.
5 Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
6 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Q. The OTP has already -- has also prepared an index, a summary of
8 the annex. This is 65 number 2134. I would like to seek that document
9 into evidence as well. And I wish to get exhibit numbers for the annexes
10 mentioned therein.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No objections against the 92 ter statement?
12 Then that is admitted into evidence.
13 Mr. Registrar will prepare MFI numbers for the annexes and, of
14 course, within the limits the Chamber set before.
15 Then, Mr. Dutertre -- Mr. Dutertre, usually the beginning of --
16 the beginning of an examination of a witness is to establish his personal
17 data. I don't think that that has happened yet.
18 Please proceed.
19 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm coming to this. One
20 moment. Please bear with me.
21 Q. Mr. Gojkovic, can you please state your place and date of birth.
22 A. I was born on the 7th of August, 1948 in the village of Crni Vrh
23 near Pec.
24 Q. And what is your nationality?
25 A. I am a Serb, a citizen of the Republic of Serbia.
1 Q. And what is your current position?
2 A. On the 18th of November, 1998 I was elected as the president of
3 the Pec District Court, and I am still at that post today, but the
4 headquarters or the seat of the district court office has been relocated
5 to Ljeskovac.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, this is in the 92 ter statement, isn't
7 it? Which is in evidence.
8 Please proceed.
9 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Yes. Mr. President, I do have a 92
10 ter statement summary, if you think it is opportune to read it this -- to
11 read it now at this stage of the examination-in-chief.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Have you explained to Mr. Gojkovic what -- what the
13 function of this is?
14 Mr. Gojkovic, for the public character of this trial, if
15 someone -- if a written statement is introduced into evidence, then the
16 public, of course, misses what the evidence is, and therefore a summary is
17 then read so that the public is aware of it.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
19 MR. DUTERTRE: [In English] Witness statement of Radomir Gojkovic.
20 Statement summary.
21 Judge Radomir Gojkovic was an investigative judge at the Pec
22 District Court throughout the indictment period. His court has
23 jurisdiction over the Pec, Klina, Istok, Djakovica and Decani
24 municipalities - the Dukagjini area. Lake Radonjic and Rznic were within
25 the area of jurisdiction. In 1998, the court dealt with many cases
1 concerning the KLA, including arms smuggling and the murders of police
2 officers, army soldiers, and civilians.
3 The Dukagjini area became a no-go area for Serb police in mid-1998
4 because of firearms attacks by the KLA. Police stations were forced to
5 close in the area.
6 On 9th September 1998, the SUP asked Judge Gojkovic to conduct an
7 investigation in relation to the bodies found in the vicinity of Lake
8 Radonjic. He organised a team to attend the scene on the same day in
9 accordance with his responsibilities as investigative judge. They
10 surveyed the area which was secured throughout the investigation by the
11 MUP. It was a very gruesome site with bodies -- with bodies and body
12 parts all over the place. Judge Gojkovic requested the assistance of
13 forensic experts from the Faculty of Forensic Medicine in Belgrade.
14 On 10th September, the team again visited the site and marked and
15 photographed the bodies and body parts. In the afternoon, Judge Gojkovic
16 was told of a possible grave site in Dasinovac and the team went there to
17 investigate. They uncovered bodies and found identification papers on
19 On 11 September, the team, under the direction of forensic experts
20 who also attended, began the body recovery operation. Some ten bodies
21 were transported to a temporary mortuary at Hotel Pastrik in Djakovica.
22 The operation continued on the 12th September.
23 On 13 and 14 September, it was not possible to work at the site
24 because of heavy rain. The forensic experts conducted autopsies at the
25 Hotel Pastrik mortuary.
1 On 15th September, body recovery were recommenced at the Lake
2 Radonjic site. The team completed their operation on this day.
3 On 16th September, relatives of missing persons who had been
4 invited to identify the bodies began the identification process. Large
5 numbers simply came to view the remains. The scene was highly emotional
6 and some people were unable to speak.
7 Relatives identified a number of bodies. All of the bodies were
8 placed in metal coffins bearing identification labels. Identified bodies
9 were handed over to their families. The unidentified bodies were taken
10 and buried in the Piskote cemetery in Djakovica.
11 [Interpretation] This is the end of this statement summary, Your
13 Q. Let me carry on with my questions. First question. Please answer
14 very succinctly. Could you tell us, when it rains in Kosovo, is it heavy
15 rain? Is it like the sort of soft rain you may have in Brittany? What --
16 is it normal rain? How are rainfalls in Kosovo?
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: You know why I'm on my feet.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre, how is rain in the Netherlands?
19 Sometimes heavy. Sometimes light. Could you please specify a bit more
20 detail what -- and come to your point. Or is there a general rain pattern
21 in Kosovo? If that's the case, I think we should first ask whether that
23 Please proceed.
24 Perhaps I could ask you: Is rain always the same, Mr. Gojkovic?
25 Do you have one kind of rain or do you have several types of rain?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It all depends on the weather
2 conditions. For example, in 1979 there was major flooding and very often
3 there were -- there was bad weather.
4 JUDGE ORIE: And sometimes it drizzles as well in Kosovo?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, we say that it drizzles or
6 falls softly.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Dutertre will put further questions to you in
8 this respect.
9 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Witness, can you tell us how it rained in September 1998, when
11 there was this body recovery operation, between the 9th and the 17th of
13 A. Before the 9th, when we went to the location, it rained a lot. On
14 the 9th, when we got there, we were forced to place an obstacle so that
15 the water would flow out of the channel, which would make the process of
16 finding and pulling the bodies out easier.
17 On the 13th and the 14th, also it rained heavily, and during those
18 two days we didn't do anything in the canal or the canyon towards the
19 Radonjic Lake.
20 In any event, all of this was written in the report.
21 Q. Thank you. Secondly, were there stray dogs in Kosovo and in the
22 Dukagjini area throughout the conflict, and notably in August or September
24 A. When we came to the scene on the 9th of September, there were
25 different animals there, cows, horses, and from time to time also dogs
1 appeared, which certainly because of the shooting were frightened and they
2 kept running across from one place to another.
3 Q. Thank you. Can we now see the exhibit the -- that was tendered
4 for MFI purposes by Mr. Di Fazio. That was the video excerpt shown to the
5 previous witness, Exhibit number P1192. And it's now been digitalized.
6 A. Excuse me. If I can just make a correction.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor said that the
9 identification began on the 16th of September. Probably it's just a
10 technical error. The identification began on the 17th and continued on
11 the 18th and the 19th.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When it was completed.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that.
15 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Thank you for this clarification.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
17 MR. EMMERSON: If I understand the position, the transcript has
18 now been enhanced and the audio track also enhanced.
19 JUDGE ORIE: So that we -- okay. Then -- then we have better
20 chances of --
21 MR. EMMERSON: My concern is that we should have the interpreters
22 in the interpreters' booths translate what they hear.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Yes, that's as usual. Although, perhaps being
24 assisted, checking on what -- what they see is what they hear.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Yes.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Because sometimes it goes so quickly that
2 interpreting cannot be done immediately, simultaneously.
3 So therefore, as always, the teamwork within the booth, one
4 translating -- one interpreting and the other one following at least
5 whether the transcript reflects what is said.
6 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Dutertre.
8 MR. DUTERTRE: [Interpretation] Just one specification. This video
9 excerpt is part of Exhibit P452, ERN number V006012. I think we can play
10 it now.
23 [Private session]
11 Pages 10069-10077 redacted. Private session.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.50 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of
3 November, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.