Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 10176

 1                          Monday, 5 November 2007

 2                          [Open session]

 3                          [The accused entered court]

 4                          [The witness entered court]

 5                          --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.

 7            THE REGISTRAR:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  Good afternoon to

 8    everyone in the courtroom.  This is case number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor

 9    versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11            Good afternoon, Witness 28.  I'd like to remind you that you're

12    still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of

13    your testimony this last Friday.  I further would like to remind the

14    parties that if any question is put to the witness which might result in

15    an answer that could reveal her identity, that we should go into private

16    session well in time.

17                          [Trial Chamber confers]

18            JUDGE ORIE:  And finally, I would like to remind the parties that

19    microphones should be switched off when the witness answers questions.

20            Mr. Re, please proceed.

21                          WITNESS:  WITNESS SST7/28 [Resumed]

22                          Examination by Mr. Re: [Continued]

23            MR. RE:  Thank you.

24       Q.   Good afternoon, Witness 28.

25            Can I just announce we do have a redacted version of the statement

Page 10177

 1    in e-court, and I understand it's Exhibit P1211 --

 2            THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters apologies.  We do not hear

 3    Mr. Re.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, there seems to be a technical problem.

 5            Mr. Re, perhaps the other microphone is better.

 6            MR. RE:  Can I -- can you hear me now?

 7            THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  Thank you very much.

 8            MR. RE:

 9       Q.   On Thursday afternoon, I was asking you some questions, Witness

10    28, about some portions of your statement.  I just want to take you to

11    paragraph 29 of your statement - and I understand you have a copy in front

12    of you - which reads:  "A MUP officer in Decani, whose name I can no

13    longer recall, told me that around the same time" -- that was in early

14    March 1998 or so -- "the bridge in Jablanica was destroyed, most likely by

15    the KLA, to prevent the MUP from entering Jablanica and patrolling the

16    area."

17            My question is this - and I appreciate it's been a long time, and

18    to an extent you're relying upon your memory -  can you provide the Trial

19    Chamber with any further -- any more details about the bridge or what you

20    were told about its destruction around that time.

21       A.   Not really too much more than I already said.  Just circumstances

22    of that discussion I can maybe remember.  That was the time when policeman

23    Prascevic was killed.  That was the beginning of the March.  I travelled

24    to Decani.  I talked to his wife.  I think related to that murder was also

25    Valeta Hirej [phoen] case and [indiscernible].  And then I visited also

Page 10178

 1    the police station in Decani to talk what is happening and what's behind

 2    that.  And that was that discussion which was just that.

 3       Q.   If you could turn, please, to paragraphs 34 and 35.  And perhaps

 4    that can be displayed in Sanction, sufficiently redacted.

 5            I want to ask you about what's in paragraph 34, but referable back

 6    to paragraph -- sorry, 35 but referable back to -- referable back to 34,

 7    where you said that:  "This was the last time that (redacted) were

 8    allowed access to KLA-controlled territories in Decani municipality.  One

 9    of our researchers told me in April  1998, while heading to Glodjane the

10    researcher was stopped at a KLA check-point in Pozar and that

11    Daut Haradinaj himself refused to allow the researcher to proceed."

12            Are you able to give the Trial Chamber any more information about

13    that?  And that is contained in that passage in your statement?

14       A.   Not really.  Again, just the context of these events.  The last

15    ten days of April there was a clash between KLA and police forces.

16    Refugees -- Albanian refugees were fleeing toward Djakovica from Erec, if

17    I remember well, while Serbian refugees were, like, heading -- the rest

18    would stay there, heading towards youth hotels behind Decani monastery,

19    and we all tried as a team to basically interview refugees and find out

20    what's happening.  And that was the moment when one of the researchers

21    went -- tried to see what's happening with Albanian refugees and enter the

22    check-point in Pozar and was refused to enter further.

23       Q.   Now, in that passage in your statement, you referred to access to

24    KLA-controlled territories in Decani municipality.  Which areas were then,

25    as far as you could see, KLA-controlled?

Page 10179

 1       A.   I had some information that KLA controlled Babaloc, Shaptej,

 2    Gramocelj, Dubrava, while Serbian police forces being in a settlement of

 3    Babaloc for a while and also in Agro-Combinat behind for a while.  In that

 4    period of time.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Could I ask one thing to clarify.  You make a

 6    distinction between Babaloc and Babaloc -- the settlement of Babaloc.  By

 7     "the settlement of Babaloc," you mean the newly built, I would say,

 8    street -- streets, et cetera, and some 50 or 80 newly built houses for

 9    refugees.  Is that --

10            THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you for that answer.

12            MR. EMMERSON:  Just one matter, if I might.  When the witness

13    indicates at page 4, line 7 "that period of time," I wonder if we might

14    clarify whether she's referring to the period of time she's describing in

15    paragraphs 34 and 35 of her witness statement or some other period of

16    time.

17            THE WITNESS:  I'm referring to the period from Easter, which was

18    19th of April, to 30th -- 30th of April, probably.  After that, I'm not

19    aware, because I was not there any more.

20            MR. RE:

21       Q.   And what was the source of your information about the KLA

22    controlling the areas you've just mentioned?

23       A.   I have difficulties remembering that now, but I think it was in

24    Djakovica the committee for protection of human rights, because we usually

25    relied on them to go and get the basic facts what's happening with the --

Page 10180

 1    on the ground.

 2       Q.   In Spotlight Report 26, which is Exhibit P6 - and you have a copy

 3    there in front of you - I think it's at page 17, the report refers to --

 4    this is 00649633, ERN.  Under the heading at 9:  "Glodjane controlled by

 5    liberation army of Kosovo," it says:

 6             "Following the 24th of March clash, the Liberation Army of Kosovo

 7    (LAK) set up check-points at the entrance and exit of Glodjane and barred

 8    news reporters from the village."

 9            Is that passage in that report to which you contributed and your

10    incident reports were used to compile referable to the part in paragraph

11    35 where you say that one of your researchers was stopped from entering

12    Glodjane in April 1998?  Is there a connection between the two, the

13    barring of (redacted) and the barring of news reporters from

14    Glodjane?

15       A.   I would not connect these two -- two facts.  I had many connection

16    with the media, and also media reported a lot about different attempts

17    of -- to enter that space.  So I am not sure this connects at all to each

18    other.

19       Q.   Can you please turn to page -- sorry, paragraph 40 of your

20    statement in relation to the Babaloc refugee settlement.  And you

21    mentioned Babaloc a moment ago.

22            And if paragraph 40 could just be displayed in Sanction there.

23            "In April 1998, I interviewed two refugees from a settlement."

24    And you've got their names.  "They told me that on the evening of the 18th

25    of April 1998, the KLA had attacked the house of Zarko Zlaticanin.  The

Page 10181

 1    house was hit but nobody was hurt.  The following day many of the refugees

 2    left for Podgorica."

 3            What did they tell you about the attack on the night of 18th of

 4    April, 1998?  Describe what they told you about the attack.

 5       A.   It's quite difficult to recollect everything what they said.  I

 6    remember me being with a little bit -- having mistrusts towards them,

 7    because they insisted there was no police force there, they were just

 8    coming to visit them.   And I just arrived from Albanian villages in, I

 9    think, Skivije, where Albanian refugees were insisting the police forces

10    were there.  So one of the reasons I went there was actually to check what

11    is happening.  But they said that on 18th, so in the eve of the Easter,

12    shooting came from the village of Babaloc, which -- because that -- if I

13    understand and as I could remember, there is some forest and split between

14    Albanian village of Babaloc and the settlement of Babaloc.

15            They said also that these attacks were also happening in 1997 but

16    not so frequent.  18th started seriously shooting from Suka e Baballoq,

17    they said, and that Albanians were shouting, "Happy Easter."  That

18    shooting continued on 19th and that 19th in the afternoon they -- they

19    were kind of doing nothing, hiding.  They've been escorted to Decani youth

20    hostel.  And then returned back, I think, on 20th, which told me - maybe I

21    was wrong to conclude - that in the meantime Serbian police forces retook

22    the position, because Albanian refugees were talking about Suka e Babaloc

23    and Suka Crmljanska is the position of the Serbian forces.

24            MR. EMMERSON:  Excuse me.  I apologise for interrupting again.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Emmerson.

Page 10182

 1            MR. EMMERSON:  But I wonder if that passage, which I slightly lost

 2    the sense of, could -- could be clarified.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 28, I think Mr. Emmerson did not exactly

 4    understand what you meant, I take it especially from where you said that

 5    you may have drawn wrong conclusions.  Could you please --

 6            THE WITNESS:  No, I -- it's just my conclusion because of the

 7    dates that all these events were happening.  Because I -- I am in the same

 8    time also in Albanian villages with Albanian refugees, and they are saying

 9    that on 20th basically they had to leave and ran away from, I think, Erec,

10    because Serbian police forces start controlling Suka e Babaloc and Suka

11    Crmljanska and start shooting at them.

12            The same time the Serbian refugees in the settlement of Babaloc

13    saying that on 18th and 19th was actually attacked by KLA on them.  So my

14    conclusion was that we had a conflict, that there were refugees fleeing in

15    different directions to avoid it.

16            I don't know if that's clear enough.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  That brings me to another question.  Earlier you

18    testified that -- where you said "the last ten days of April there was a

19    clash between KLA and police forces, refugees, Albanian refugees were

20    fleeing towards Djakovica."

21            THE WITNESS:  Mm-hm.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  And if you remember it well, Serbian refugees were

23    heading, I think, towards the youth hostel behind Decani.

24            What I'd like to ask you is:  On -- on the basis of the

25    information received and on the basis of you -- what you observed

Page 10183

 1    yourself, was it that Serbs were fleeing when KLA attacks took place?  Was

 2    it that Albanians were fleeing when Serbian attacks took place?  Or was it

 3    that there was armed conflict where it was not easy to identify who was

 4    attacking and who was defending but just exchange of fire, violence, where

 5    the whole of the population, irrespective of who was shooting or who was

 6    attacking, just got out of their villages in order to protect themselves?

 7    Or was it -- I hope you understand my question.

 8            THE WITNESS:  Yeah, I understand.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  But it was a specific response, fleeing, from a

10    specific attack, or whether it was widespread violence, including several

11    forces, where -- whether you were Serbian or whether you were Albanian

12    you'd leave the territory because it would become too dangerous for all of

13    you.

14            THE WITNESS:  I didn't have an impression that was kind of

15    uncontrolled and wide and unknown attackers behind, especially with the

16    Babaloc settlement refugees, because they clearly pointed toward Babaloc

17    village, Albanian village, saying that they are shooting them and they are

18    pulling out and with the escort of police hardly could reach youth hostel

19    there.

20            The same thing happened with the Albanian refugees.  They were

21    saying that Serbian police is actually in certain positions shelling the

22    villages and because of that they were running.

23            That's what I can recollect now.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  And it's not -- you didn't gain the impression that

25    where people were fleeing for violence, that they were perhaps

Page 10184

 1    misinterpreting the situation, blaming the violence necessarily to what

 2    were their natural opponents, that is, Albanians for the Serbs and Serbs

 3    for the Albanians.

 4            THE WITNESS:  What I had impression is that they both, of course,

 5    insisted they've been unarmed.  So Serbs are saying that they -- they

 6    haven't been armed and they just without any weapons were sitting there in

 7    the settlement, which actually Albanians said differently.  And also

 8    Albanian refugees were insisting that men stayed behind and that they are

 9    all civilians guarding their homes.

10            But my feeling was at that point that it was already established

11    some kind of -- two -- two different military groups, one against the

12    other, one very weak, like KLA, not very -- probably well-armed but kind

13    of ready to fight and more powerful Serbian police forces that basically

14    wanted to keep that road open between Decani and Djakovica.  I think

15    everything was at these ten days about the road between Decani and

16    Djakovica.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

18            Please proceed, Mr. Re.

19            MR. RE:

20       Q.   Let's go to the section in your statement from paragraph 44 down:

21    "Serb families living in Dukagjini area in early 1998."

22            If that could be displayed in Sanction, please, the rest of that

23    page.

24            Now, in the middle of the first paragraph - this is 44 - you say:

25    "We received information that some Serb civilians in Albanian villages had

Page 10185

 1    been kidnapped by the KLA and were missing."

 2            You then go down -- two sentences down to say:  "(redacted) decided

 3    to investigate the accuracy of the claims, and I arrived in Decani in the

 4    last week of April 1998 to investigate."  Next paragraph:  "In Decani, I

 5    counted 34 Serb families who had left their villages in the Dukagjini area

 6    and were living in Decani as refugees."

 7            I want to concentrate on that.  Firstly, how did you calculate the

 8    figure of 34 families in that sentence and 123 in the next sentence?

 9       A.   Well, 123, I have to say, I really don't know the source.  I knew

10    that I had that in my notebook, 123 numbers stays in my head.  I can't

11    recollect what is the source for that number.

12            For these 34 families I did  count them and I will tell you how.

13    First maybe it's worth mentioning that these families were not unknown to

14    us.  We'd been receiving reports from early March that those -- some of

15    those families were attacked, some were already leaving, and our

16    researcher, who still could go in March, Serbian researcher, was

17    interviewing these families.  So I knew -- I was familiar with those

18    families.

19            When I arrived there, what I usually did in that time was I draw

20    the map.  These villages were not totally known to me, and I draw the map

21    with the villages and I concentrated on the right side of the road looking

22    from Djakovica to Decani; meaning that would be east -- yeah, east -- east

23    side of the road.  And then I didn't, of course, calculate every single

24    person there.  I wish I could.  But what I did, I put down the numbers of

25    the houses, families.  Serbs in those villages were similarly organised as

Page 10186

 1    families in Albanian families, meaning, say, three families of Popovic,

 2    five families -- five houses -- five houses of Stojanovic, three houses

 3    there.

 4            So that's the -- the way how I did it.  And I paid attention

 5    specifically, because media in Serbia, Russian media in Serbia were, I

 6    thought, exaggerating the numbers and talking about hundreds of families

 7    being expelled.  And maybe it's interesting to mention here that five

 8    families from Gramocelj, Albanian families from Gramocelj, I was told - I

 9    didn't see them - but I was told were there who didn't want to take the

10    arms.  And that's how I then later -- out of this, actually, listing the

11    families created a lot of confusion later because some names and the

12    families were mysteriously later not being able to track.  We prepared

13    that report later, so I tried to find some of them.  And some of these

14    missing had different surnames.

15            For example, these two old ladies, one handicapped, Serbs there in

16    Decani told me that they are Vujorad Dara [phoen], Ante Vujosevic, but in

17    reality later I realised that one was married and was Kovac, or something

18    like that.  But I had them as Vujosevic in my list.

19            Am I actually talking too much answering the questions that --

20            JUDGE ORIE:  No.  No, you're trying to clearly explain what Mr. Re

21    asks you.  And if you would enter any area where Mr. Re thinks that we

22    should focus on other areas, he'll certainly then interrupt you.  And --

23    and if we have the same feeling, we'll do the same.

24            THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

25            MR. RE:

Page 10187

 1       Q.   Can I just take you back to your last answer.  And you said that

 2    "we were -- we'd been receiving reports from early March that some of

 3    those families were attacked, some were already leaving."

 4            What were the reports you'd been receiving?  What were the nature

 5    of the attacks?  What had you been told about the attacks on these

 6    families?  That is, who had been attacking them?  In what manner?  And

 7    what was the result of these attacks?

 8       A.   I can't remember all family names that we then interviewed,

 9    especially that was done by other researchers, so I can't -- and I don't

10    have an insight into regional statements there that stated "(redacted)

11    (redacted)."  I remember some names and some villages that they came from.

12    And I know that it was the beginning of the March.

13       Q.   Okay.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber the names and the villages

14    you can remember and what you were told about the nature of the attacks.

15       A.   So I -- I remember from some family Fatic from Crmljane that

16    was -- bomb was thrown into their yard.  A similar thing was in Culafic.

17    I think it was Ratis.  That's what I'm not sure.  There was the Bozanic

18    family, a Montenegrin family in Rznic, and for them I know that I tried to

19    track them later but -- and I heard that there their son lives in Belgrade

20    and they moved immediately after clash in Glodjane there.

21            Was that -- one more?  I can't remember any more.  I might

22    actually remember later that last name of that fourth family.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Apart from the name, do you remember the -- the place

24    and what happened to them?

25            THE WITNESS:  There was no one hurt, as far as I remember.  We

Page 10188

 1    just got -- we seen reports in Serbian media that these Serbian houses

 2    were attacked.  So our researcher went there, interviewed them, and got a

 3    different material about bombs being there.  Mostly bombs, I remember,

 4    being thrown in their yards.

 5            MR. RE:

 6       Q.   What was the information about who had put the bombs in their

 7    yards?

 8       A.   I can't say that really.  I can't remember.  To me, because I

 9    followed the development KLA from the before and from Dreznica, was

10    quite -- I had already some information about KLA being there, so that was

11    logical.  But I can't say it was KLA, because I don't see these interviews

12    any more.

13            But what I remember now is curfew that existed beginning of 1998,

14    and I remember specific interview that was made by one researcher --

15    researcher, Serbian, with a family that was stopped explicitly by KLA.

16    And a car was shot.  Nobody was hurt.  And I think they even have that

17    interview somewhere with me.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Do you remember -- where you said "beginning of

19    1998," could you be more specific as far as month is concerned?

20            THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I think that it was actually some kind of

21    saint.  The end of December.  And they were traveling to monastery.  Which

22    monastery, I don't know any more.  And they were stopped on that road and

23    they'd been interviewed by the Serbian researcher and explained that they

24    didn't know for curfew but all other Serbs knew, and that was the case, I

25    remember.  I mean, I might find actually that interview, if -- if it is

Page 10189

 1    important.

 2            MR. RE:

 3       Q.   Do you mean that -- the end of December 1997?

 4       A.   1997, yes.

 5       Q.   All right.  And you referred to the curfew.  What was the curfew?

 6       A.   The curfew was related to some -- that KLA was patrolling and then

 7    they couldn't go out from the houses.  And then there was one more family,

 8    I think, but that was not in that -- that was not in Decani.  It was in

 9    Klina.  That they'd been saying -- Donji Petrovic [phoen] in Klina.

10    They'd been saying that they took the weapons and they were guarding their

11    house -- Serbian house, fearing of the KLA attacks.

12       Q.   All right.

13       A.   It was March.

14       Q.   Where was this incident of the shooting of the car?

15       A.   Josanica.  I think something like Josanica.  Turici or something

16    like that.

17       Q.   Where is that?

18       A.   Should be further near Klina.  Norther than -- north from

19    Djakovica.

20       Q.   Okay.  And --

21       A.   The border maybe with the -- with the Drenica region.

22       Q.   All right.  And the curfew.  Were you saying the KLA imposed the

23    curfew or someone else imposed the curfew?

24       A.   The KLA imposed the curfew.  That was in that interview.

25       Q.   All right.  Now, these abductions of ethnic -- of ethnic Serbs are

Page 10190

 1    referred to in the Human Rights Watch report "Violations of the rules --

 2    humanitarian law violations in Kosovo."  That's 65 ter Exhibit number 999.

 3            If you turn to pages 78 and 79, where at the footnote its sources

 4    for some of the information about the abductions of ethnic Serbs is the --

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Is this already in evidence, Mr. Re?

 6            MR. RE:  No.  But I'm going to ask for it to be -- to be tendered.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  And I see it's quite a -- a long report.  Do you need

 8    everything of it?

 9            MR. RE:  Well, yes.  It's a -- it's a report which is of the

10    period from -- all through 1998 and is a balance report referring to what

11    was happening on both sides.

12            MR. GUY-SMITH:  If I may, in the event that the Prosecution is

13    going to be seeking to tender this particular exhibit, we're going to be

14    objecting to it based on the ruling in the Milutinovic case concerning

15    these kinds of documents.  And we're happy to make further written

16    submissions about it at a later point in time, but I just want to set a

17    marker at this time with regard to this exhibit.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

19            Mr. Re, then reports summarising the whole of the conflict are at

20    least problematic, so I would encourage you to -- first of all, to focus

21    on those portions you would specifically like to deal with.

22            MR. RE:  It's -- it's directly relevant to the incidents which are

23    in the indictment.  It refers to a number of the people who were listed in

24    the indictment.  That's the preliminary step I'm taking with this witness.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

Page 10191

 1            MR. RE:

 2       Q.   Now, Witness 28, I just want you to --

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  I don't know whether it's relevance that's at the

 4    basis of your --

 5            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, there are going to be -- there are going to

 6    be actually a series of objections with regard to this particular kind of

 7    evidence.  Perhaps what would be the most prudent thing would be to file a

 8    written submission.  But I -- and ask at this point for the Chamber to

 9    withhold any ruling with regard to the admission of this particular

10    document.

11            I just wanted to alert the Chamber to the fact that we would be

12    following the reasoning in the decision of the 1st of September, 2006

13    concerning evidence tendered through Sandra Mitchell and

14    Frederick Abrahams.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Which I believe also has applicable --

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Re, you are aware that this is, I would

18    say, that this is a repeating issue to what extent summarising evidence by

19    others could be admitted, because I take it that you want to have it

20    admitted since -- to establish the content of the report as being the

21    truth.

22            MR. RE:  Yes.  And also for the conclusion which Human Rights

23    Watch came to in relation to when the conflict occurred and the intensity

24    and level of it based upon their experiences on the ground, and that's at

25    pages 91 to 93.  And I've referred to that in -- but could -- would it be

Page 10192

 1    possible just to have it marked for identification now and have this

 2    debate at a later point?

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  At the same time, of course, once the witness

 4    has concluded testimony, then of course if we have not or only very

 5    partially admit this into evidence, then of course you're facing the

 6    problem that where you thought that quite a lot of material would be in

 7    evidence, that it might not be.

 8            MR. RE:  No, that's not what where I'm coming.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.

10            MR. RE:  All I want to do is --

11            JUDGE ORIE:  We'll MFI it for --

12            MR. RE:  I just want her to identify the certain passages as

13    linking back.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

15            MR. RE:  That's all I want to take up with this witness.

16            MR. EMMERSON:  I don't know whether the Trial Chamber has yet seen

17    the witness statement of -- I'm sure there's no application for protective

18    measures, but if I get it wrong -- no, I see there isn't -- of

19    Peter Bouckaert of Human Rights Watch.

20            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Fred Abrahams.

21            MR. EMMERSON:  I'm sorry, Fred Abrahams of Human Rights Watch who

22    produces this report as well or refers to this report as well.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  I think we don't have -- we haven't seen it.  Which

24    doesn't mean that we are not aware of it coming in our direction.

25            MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.  We know that -- just apropos the point Mr. Re

Page 10193

 1    makes moment ago, there are very considerable passages of that statement

 2    which objection is going to be taken, including and perhaps in particular

 3    the conclusion that Mr. Re adverts to is the appropriate date for the

 4    start of an armed conflict.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, at least this report, Human Rights Watch

 6    report, receives an MFI number.

 7            And that would be, Mr. Registrar?

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be marked for

 9    identification as P1212.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11            Please proceed, Mr. Re.

12            MR. RE:

13       Q.   All I want to do you, Witness 28, is for you to identify some

14    sections in this report, Human Rights Watch report, which are referable to

15    the work you and (redacted) did in Kosovo in 1998.  And the first one is at

16    pages 78 to 79, which refers to the abduction of ethnic Serbs.  And

17    paragraph -- and footnote 134 and 138 actually refer -- actually footnote

18    to (redacted) reports.  I just want you to confirm that that is -- that is in

19    fact the case.  And then I want to take you to another passage in it.

20       A.   Okay.  Yes.

21       Q.   Thank you.

22            Now, if you could just turn to the specific incidents at paragraph

23    49 -- sorry, 48, where you say you interviewed some of the refugees in

24    Decan; then paragraph 49.

25            If that could -- also could be displayed in Sanction, please.

Page 10194

 1       A.   I'm lost now.

 2       Q.   Paragraph 49, where you refer to an interview with Milovan and

 3    Milka Vlahovic's daughter, Nada Vlahovic.

 4            I'm sorry?

 5                          [Trial Chamber confers]

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed, Mr. Re.

 7            MR. RE:

 8       Q.   And thereafter on the page in paragraph 51, where you refer to

 9    "The refugees telling me that the only Serbs remaining in Dasinovac were

10    Slobodan Milosevic, Milica Radunovic, Milos Radunovic, and the Markovic

11    family."

12            Now, firstly I just want you to refer to you to page 83 of MFI

13    P1212, which is the Human Rights Watch report.  And the footnote of 149

14    refers to (redacted) report, which is in Exhibit P6 -- or P5, I'm sorry.

15       A.   Yes.

16       Q.   And is it fair to say the Human Rights Watch report bases its

17    information on information which (redacted) --

18       A.   Yes.

19       Q.   -- obtained?

20       A.   Mm-hm.

21       Q.   And if you could just turn over to the next page, which is page 84

22    of the Human Rights Watch report, where it says:

23            "According to the (redacted) and newspaper Blic,

24    Gurum Bejta [phoen] and Agron Berisa, both Roma, and Ivan Zaric, an ethnic

25    Serb, left Dolac on May 20th for the villages of Grabovica.  As of August

Page 10195

 1    1999 their whereabouts were unknown."  Again -- that's footnote 151 -- is

 2    that also information the Human Rights Watch is basing upon that newspaper

 3    report and the information which your research has gathered on the ground

 4    in Kosovo at the time.

 5       A.   Yes.

 6       Q.   Thank you.

 7            Now, I want to now take you to -- sorry, paragraph 50.  In the

 8    middle of it it says:  "Nada Vlahovic told me that Serbs -- that when the

 9    Serbs were leaving, the Albanian families also left the village.  Only the

10    Albanian men stayed behind.  My experience was that this was a typical and

11    normal occurrence in villages where the KLA appeared in public.  The

12    Albanian women and children would leave the village as well fearing

13    clashes between the KLA, MUP, or VJ."

14            Now, can you just briefly tell the Trial Chamber what your

15    experience was of that and how you were able to come to that conclusion.

16       A.   My experience was that Serbian police forces were absolutely

17    without control once getting into the clashes or entering the villages

18    where they suspected of being attacked by KLA, which then meant that

19    Albanian villagers tried to save the children and the women and send them

20    further as possible so that they cannot -- save their lives.  And that was

21    one vicious circle, I would say, which I don't know who should be blamed

22    really on the end of the day, because Serbian police also shouldn't, I

23    think, exaggerate the level of the attacks and make -- creating new waves

24    of the refugees, basically.

25            At a certain point in the summer it became really chaos.  But yes,

Page 10196

 1    that's true that mostly Serbs would tell -- tell us, I think Nada

 2    Vlahovic, but also that Ljubica Stojanovic, that, for example, before

 3    Glodjane clashes on 24th of March, they noticed that some Albanian

 4    families left the village.  And sometimes also Albanian women said that

 5    their men stayed behind to look for the house.

 6            So it's fear, fear that clashes would occur and somebody would get

 7    killed.

 8       Q.   If I could take you now to paragraph 53.  If that could also be

 9    displayed in Sanction, where you say:

10             "Some Serb refugees staying in the youth hostel in Decani told me

11    that a Serb from Prilep, Branko Stamatovic disappeared on the 25th of

12    April, 1998."

13            Do you have any further information on that?  If not, I'll move

14    on.

15       A.   I think that we had in one report that, I'm not sure if I can

16    remember, there was one Albanian source telling us that Branko was seen

17    entering with the Serbian police somebody's house or something like that,

18    but I'm not sure that this man is alive any more.

19       Q.   If you could turn to the next paragraph, 54, under the heading

20    "Conditions along the main roads in mid-1998," where you say:

21             "My observations from traveling in the -- frequently in the

22    Dukagjini area from March 1999" -- I'm sorry, 1998 -- I'll say it again.

23     "March 1998 onwards was of an escalation of the conflict."

24            Would you describe to the Trial Chamber this escalation of the

25    conflict you observed from March 1998 -- 1998 onwards.

Page 10197

 1       A.   Well, from March I don't remember seeing any police check-points

 2    in such a big numbers.  Roads were open.  Buses still worked, although

 3    some of them were stopped and some people kidnapped out of the buses.

 4            That changed quite a lot.  Again, I am talking about these ten

 5    days of April, last April where buses stopped work.  There were a lot of

 6    check-points.  Many Albanian refugees testified that they could see

 7    convoys, police and military convoys on -- on the road, especially between

 8    Decani-Djakovica.

 9            I also heard that behind the monastery arrived special Serbian

10    forces and from other side Albanian refugees were calling that part Podi i

11    Geshtenjave, I think that's the part how it was called, where they settled

12    there.  So there was a tension growing and more refugees coming.

13            Another point is there is a border where very often media were

14    reporting about Yugoslav Army stopping the convoys with the -- not convoys

15    but basically people -- arresting people with weapons, carrying through

16    the borders.  And then I think that a lot of refugees from Voksh or --

17    what's called that?  Another place.  Was heading toward Djakovica again,

18    from the other side toward Djakovica.  Fearing the clashes are already

19    maybe happening, the clashes.  I can't remember that.

20            But yes, the roads were becoming the problem.  The roads in April

21    quite a bit.  In May actually almost very difficult to travel on that road

22    to Djakovica from Pristina.

23       Q.   Okay.  Now, what was it about the conflict you saw escalating?

24    That's what I'm specifically getting to.

25       A.   I mean, I was not the -- a witness of the conflict.  I could just

Page 10198

 1    put together the bits and pieces of information I got, and I also was

 2    worried where to send researchers, not to send a Serbian researcher in

 3    KLA-controlled zone or not to sentence Albanian researchers over the

 4    check-points of the Serbs, who were quite angry.  And so I was monitoring

 5    that process, and I -- I could see very nervous check-points, Serbian

 6    policemen, behind the sandbags, struggling to keep the road open,

 7    insisting that basically KLA is going to close the road.

 8       Q.   In paragraph 65, you refer to an incident on the 24th or 25th of

 9    May when you were driving (redacted) jeep to Pec or Peja with your team to

10    abuse -- to investigate abuses in Serbian police custody.  And at the

11    bottom of the paragraph, you said:  "We heard that the KLA had also

12    kidnapped two police near Prilep on the Decani-Djakovica road."

13            I just want to cross-reference that.  Is that -- if you could turn

14    to Spotlight Report number 27, which is part of P6.

15            If you could go to paragraph 2.24, which is at page K0078707.  It

16    refers to the abduction of police officers Nikola Jovanovic and

17    Rade Popovic.  Is that the same incident to which you're referring in your

18    statement?

19       A.   Yes.  It is but we didn't investigate that -- in the incident that

20    was taken, as I remember, from media. I just heard that there was

21    something else happening of the road, not just Ljubenic attack but also

22    something else just happened or happened day before.  I can't remember any

23    more.  And then I also heard there were related to that case that there

24    are some negotiations.  If true, that these policemen to be released.  But

25    it failed.

Page 10199

 1       Q.   If you could turn to paragraph 75, please.  If that could also be

 2    displayed in Sanction.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Emmerson.

 4            MR. EMMERSON:  I'm sorry.  Just in respect of the last line of the

 5    last answer.  I wonder if the witness could give the source for that,

 6    please.  The reference to negotiations.

 7            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  I think it was daily -- daily newspaper,

 8    Danas.  But we have it here, I think, mentioned in this document that he

 9    was referring to.

10            Can you help me to find that paragraph here?  Can you help me?

11    This is about that Poparic -- Nikola Ivanic case.  Poparic.

12            Mm-hm.  Mm-hm.  This may be -- oh, no.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  I think it is --

14            THE WITNESS:  It is there.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  224, it reads:  "The paper further reported that

16    there had been contacts between the police authorities and the KLA."

17            THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes.

18            JUDGE ORIE:   -- "on exchanging captured police officers in return

19    for food supplies."

20            Is that what you were referring to?

21            THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  And apart from what the papers reported, you have no

23    additional information --

24            THE WITNESS:  No.

25            JUDGE ORIE:   -- apart from this was reported.

Page 10200

 1            THE WITNESS:  No.  Because this report was made partly based on

 2    what we researched and partly on what local media reported.  And we

 3    stated -- quoted the sources.

 4            MR. RE:

 5       Q.   If we could go to paragraph 75, which is displayed in Sanction

 6    there.  You refer to the Serbian media (redacted) documenting "increased KLA

 7    attacks on MUP patrols on the Djakovica-Decani-Pec road (including the

 8    kidnapping and killing of police and civilians).".

 9            You then refer to your assessment saying:

10            "Based upon my field research, my assessment was that they in turn

11    provoked retaliation by the MUP.  The MUP then retaliated by the

12    indiscriminate shelling and burning of Albanian villages."

13            Then you go down:  "Resulting in an exodus of Albanian women and

14    children.  Meanwhile Albanian male villagers were being mobilised.  The

15    MUP retaliation in May 1998 seemed to be specifically targeted at places

16    like Decani and Ljubenic, but in summer spread across all of Kosovo.  The

17    MUP needed control the towns and main roads."

18            What -- I just want you to elaborate on that, the MUP needed to

19    control the towns and the main roads.  What was your information about the

20    control in the Dukagjini area in May 1998? ?

21       A.   I mean, this is really now opinion.  It is not based on any

22    special information.  The fact -- pure fact that there was a road that was

23    dividing basically western side -- yeah, eastern side of -- of the road

24    with the villages by then controlled by the end of May by KLA, I think.

25    And then also the border where the -- the weapons was coming was quite

Page 10201

 1    clearly the way that -- that was the intention, to have territory and open

 2    the way for the weapons to come in.  And the Serbs, just not only in case

 3    of Decani but also in Orahovac or anywhere else, whenever somebody would

 4    try to close the road or somebody would try to take the town under

 5    control, they just didn't let it happen.

 6            Nothing more I can say that.  It was just my assessment.

 7       Q.   And I want to just take you back to an answer you gave before to

 8    Judge Orie when he was asking you about people fleeing the violence in

 9    March and April 1998.

10       A.   Mm-hm.

11       Q.   Were you able to determine from your interviews and your

12    observations in the field a pattern to what the Albanians or Serbs were

13    telling (redacted)?

14       A.   You mean specifically for that region?  Because we covered all

15    Kosovo.  Are you asking for Decani?

16       Q.   That region, yes, Decani, Dukagjini.

17       A.   Well, Serbs actually had expressed pure belief that they're

18    targeted and they're -- they were told to leave the houses.  Sometimes

19    then they feared that they would be targeted.  There was a lot --

20    different reports about some foreign armies, as they would call, in Decani

21    area.  So some of them actually were arrested and beaten, as I understand,

22    in KLA headquarter in Glodjane.

23            Albanians from other side were actually saying almost always the

24    same, "The Serbian forces are on this Suka e Babaloc and Suka Crmljanska,"

25    and they are showing them that's the reason why they are leaving.  Both

Page 10202

 1    sides insisted they are not armed, that we interviewed.

 2       Q.   Who was -- what was your information about who was targeting the

 3    Serbs?

 4       A.   Well, if you ask the Serbs then, they would all have -- say just a

 5    couple of expressions.  They would say "Siptari", terrorists, "OVK,"

 6    "UCK."  These are the expressions that they've been using all the time.

 7            However, I have to say that Serbian media were so much in

 8    propaganda against the terrorists that we started actually worrying a

 9    certain point, I think actually after March, that we don't actually see

10    how this is developing.  If everything the Serbs says OVK -- or terrorists

11    did this.  That's why we then tried to basically identify have they been

12    actually armed or they had weapons or they've been under uniform, in

13    uniforms, or just it's opinion that they are terrorists who are attacking

14    you, or rather, them.

15            Maybe it's important to say political element into this

16    terminology.  I don't know if it's -- maybe important, maybe not.  But

17    Serbs for a while didn't want to admit that they have actually military

18    conflict and wanted to have that perception that they are honest Albanians

19    and some terrorists and gangs roaming around.

20            I think for a while also LDK of Kosovo for, like, beginning of the

21    clashes -- beginning of the -- what I see as the war, also didn't want to

22    admit that KLA exists, so that was -- that's why Serbs mostly used

23    "terrorists," "terrorists," "terrorists," but also "OVK," "KLA," "UCK"

24    also.

25       Q.   Just going back to your observations and what you were able to

Page 10203

 1    verify and determine based on interviews and what you saw on the roads,

 2    was it more consistent with the existence of the KLA targeting the Serb

 3    families or was it consistent with something else?

 4       A.   I -- I didn't understand this question.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Emmerson.

 6            MR. EMMERSON:  I think --

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Shall we -- if the witness doesn't understand the

 8    question, then another question or a rephrased question should be put to

 9    her.  Once the question is there, Mr. Emmerson, I take it --

10            MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.  I think more generally -- I haven't

11    interrupted up until now.  As we've been drifting further and further away

12    from specifics and more and more into generalisations and assessments.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  That's clear.

14            MR. EMMERSON:  But I think, if I may say so, we're well beyond

15    proper bounds by now.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Re.

17            MR. RE:  I'll rephrase it.

18       Q.   What -- you've described propaganda in the media, what the Serb --

19    who had left -- who had left their villages and said they'd been targeted

20    had said to you.  You've described -- your statement says you were in

21    Kosovo in that area at the time observing movements and things happening

22    on the road.

23            Based on everything you saw, what -- what was -- what was -- what

24    was -- what the Serbs were saying to you was consistent with what?

25       A.   I still don't understand.

Page 10204

 1            MR. EMMERSON:  I --

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Let me see whether we can resolve the matter.

 3            You said earlier - and I'll find the passage - you said that the

 4    Serbs didn't want to admit that KLA exists.  That's why Serbs mostly

 5    used "terrorists," terrorists" -- but also and then a few other words.

 6            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Now, do I understand your answer well that you

 8    consider this to be unrealistic, saying that -- or not wanting to admit

 9    that KLA existed?

10            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  I actually think that KLA existed then.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, when for the first time you noticed for

12    yourself that the denial of the existence of KLA was unrealistic?  When

13    for the first time you thought, what they are doing is unrealistic?

14            THE WITNESS:  You mean Serbian?

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

16            THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean, immediately after Likosane

17    event that I mentioned on Thursday evening.  Because it is obvious that

18    there is a popular uprising after that.  Then I talked to some sources in

19    LDK and I was told that already are groups on the ground not still army.

20    It was February 1998.  And not still army but people are just flooding to

21    support them.  Albanians really had been disappointed that the issue was

22    not sorted out after Dayton and start actually getting into a position to

23    look at this process of peaceful maintaining process.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Now --

25            THE WITNESS:  So that's what I thought.  Prekaz, again, the next

Page 10205

 1    big massacre that happened on 5th or 6th.  Again, I think, recruitment of

 2    the people.  So there is genuine movement behind it.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Now, you say Serbs denied KLA to exist.  I

 4    understand KLA to be Kosovo Liberation Army.

 5            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  And at the same time, you say in February 1998 and

 7    not still army.  When for the first time, then, it came into your mind

 8    that a denial of the existence of an army was not consistent with what you

 9    considered to be an army?  And I'll then later ask you why you considered

10    at a certain moment where you said in February "not still army," then --

11            THE WITNESS:  No, that's not me.  The source in the LDK told me

12    this is still not the army, but it's having the support, widespread

13    support.  We are a little worried.  But if I thought a month ago that it

14    would not be the war, now I cannot say it any more.

15            So that's what somebody else told me.  I -- I'm not military

16    expert.  I just saw actually KLA -- yeah, KLA soldiers.  I seen them in

17    Prekaz.  I seen them in Cirez and Likosane.  I also had passed in --

18    outside Dreznica, had some contacts with commanders there.  So I was aware

19    that it was army.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  When you told us this, you're referring not only to

21    the Dukagjini area but the wider area.

22            THE WITNESS:  Yeah, the wider area.

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

24            Mr. Re, please proceed.

25            MR. RE:  I have no further questions.

Page 10206

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

 2            Then -- three Defence counsels.  Who's going first?  Mr. Emmerson.

 3            MR. EMMERSON:  I think that's the plan.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  Witness 28, you'll now be cross-examined by

 5    Mr. Emmerson, who's counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.

 6            Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

 7                          Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:

 8       Q.   Could I ask you, please, Witness 28 to turn to paragraph 65 of

 9    your witness statement.  There's just one preliminary topic I want to

10    cover with you, if I may.

11            In paragraph 65, the opening lines of that paragraph indicate that

12    on the 24th or 25th of May, you were driving with your team to investigate

13    abuses in Serbian police custody, to speak to lawyers and local Albanian

14    human rights workers.

15            Now, you go on in your statement to explain that when you arrived

16    in Pec you heard about incidents that had occurred in Dolovo and Ljubenic,

17    which I'm going to come back to.  But I want to ask --

18       A.   Just one thing.  I am quite -- I thought a lot.  There are a

19    place -- two places.  One is called Dolovo, one is called Dolac.  And

20    they're all along the road Klina.  I'm not sure is that Dolovo or Dolac.

21       Q.   Very well.  Well, we'll -- we'll --

22       A.   Mm-hm.

23       Q.   We'll come back to the Ljubenic dimension in a little while.  But

24    what I want to ask you about, please, is the investigation that you were

25    then conducting and what, if anything, it led to.  I want to ask you what

Page 10207

 1    inquiries you made during that investigation into abuse of Albanian

 2    prisoners detained by Serbian police.

 3       A.   You mean the intention, the real intention why we went there?  We

 4    actually gave up the same second of that, because we already heard that

 5    Ljubenic is problem, so Albanian researchers immediately day after went

 6    into Ljubenic, and Serbian researcher that day went to find somebody who

 7    was wounded, I think in this case, in front of the --

 8       Q.   Very well.  So that -- that mission to investigate --

 9       A.   That's --

10       Q.   -- abuse was abandoned.

11       A.   Abandoned.

12       Q.   Did you ever pick that project up again?

13       A.   It was not a project.  Let me clarify.  What we really did - and I

14    think it's to appraise all the team - we've been actually every morning

15    reading newspapers and seeing especially KIC, which is Kosovo Information

16    Centre.  And we would get out of that many, many, many different names of

17    abuse and torture and prison.  So this, what was happening with the Serbs

18    was like 1 per cent of our work.  Everything else was dealing with the --

19    basically widespread abuse of Albanians.

20       Q.   Yes.

21       A.   So I can't say that specific project.  The project was ongoing

22    daily.

23       Q.   Very well.  If we could look at paragraph 26 of your statement for

24    a moment.  You assert there in the first sentence that it was:  "Well

25    known that a culture of corruption existed at all levels within the law

Page 10208

 1    enforcement and judicial systems in Kosovo."

 2            And then a little further down at the bottom end of the paragraph,

 3    you refer to the practice of what are known as informative talks.

 4       A.   Yes.

 5       Q.   And you say:  "That was the normal expression then used by Serbian

 6    police when they intended to beat or torture persons in order to extract

 7    information or confessions."

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   Can I ask you, please, to explain the basis for those two

10    assertions, what it is that you base those on.

11       A.   Informative discussions were something not only present in Kosovo.

12    I was personally invited a couple of times for informative discussions.

13    And that meant not really just informing but in -- by many Albanians who

14    actually told me that, meant really beating and torturing people in the

15    prison.  But then out of that, some of the Serbian command structures

16    basically made money, so they said, Well, let's charge it.  And sometimes

17    they pretended, and sometimes not.  But it was quite a financially

18    successful job.

19       Q.   In paragraph 34 of your statement, when dealing with the aftermath

20    of the incident in Gllogjan on the 24th of March, you say that you

21    received reports that many local Albanians were arrested and taken to the

22    Decani police station, where they were interrogated and beaten.

23            And my first question is:   What was the source of those reports?

24       A.   The source were Albanian witnesses of the event, and that were

25    police intervention in Glodjane.  Because we had Albanian researchers

Page 10209

 1    interviewing witnesses of the event.  And as far as I remember there, was

 2    also a school where the children were scared and the parents tried to save

 3    the children there.  I also think that Serbian police at certain point

 4    used some men, Albanian, as cover -- as hostages or something like that.

 5       Q.   These reports that you received --

 6       A.   Mm-hm.

 7       Q.   -- of Albanians being beaten during interrogation --

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   -- were they unique or were they typical of information that you

10    received about the treatment of Albanian suspects in Serb police custody

11    in Western Kosovo at this time?

12       A.   It was typical across the Kosovo, not only Western Kosovo.

13       Q.   Are you able to give any more information about that practice, if

14    it was a practice?

15       A.   I mean, I'm sure that you can find at (redacted)

16    many, many, many interviews that we made with the people who were beaten

17    or tortured, especially after Orahovac fell.  I remember that I talked

18    actually with some people, Albanians -- not some; many -- who were later

19    taken to Stimlje or somewhere -- Prizren in the police station and some, I

20    think, were killed.  For some people, I know that they were killed in

21    prisons.

22       Q.   We're going to see with you in a moment if I can just trace that

23    observation through with you.  But could we look, please, just briefly at

24    the report that Mr. Re has just taken you to and this has just been marked

25    for identification, the humanitarian law violations in Kosovo report.  And

Page 10210

 1    I ask these questions, if I may, without prejudice to the submissions

 2    about admissibility of this document.  And --

 3       A.   Can I have this -- that on my screen?

 4       Q.   Yes.  I'm going to ask you, please -- it's P1212, and it's page 53

 5    of the document I want to ask you about.  Sorry, page -- I think we have

 6    page 45.  It's -- it should be page 53.  That's the one.

 7       A.   Mm-hm.

 8       Q.   Under the heading "Arrests -- detentions and arrests," the

 9    document records in the first sentence that arbitrary detentions and

10    arrests of ethnic Albanians have escalated rapidly throughout 1998.

11            And then if I can just drop down to the next paragraph:

12            "In July and August, detained individuals increasingly included

13    human rights activists, humanitarian aid workers, political party members,

14    doctors, and lawyers, many of whom were physically abused in custody Human

15    Rights Watch has substantial and credible evidence from lawyers and family

16    members of detainees that torture and ill-treatment" --

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Emmerson, you're reading.

18       Q.   "That torture and ill-treatment of detainees is common, especially

19    in the police stations during the first days in custody.  From March to

20    August 1998, five people" --

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Emmerson.  Mr. Emmerson.

22            MR. EMMERSON:  Too fast?

23            JUDGE ORIE:  We're now just finished the French translation.

24            MR. EMMERSON:  I'm sorry.  I'm following the transcript without

25    listening to the translation.  It's the usual error.

Page 10211

 1       Q.   If I can pick it up then.  "From March to August 1998, five people

 2    are known to have died from torture while in police custody; hundreds of

 3    others have been beaten."  And then there's a reference to restricted

 4    access.

 5            Then at the very bottom of that section there, are two lines that

 6    read:   "In the past, terrorist-related trials have been marred by serious

 7    procedural irregularities, as well as the use of torture to extract

 8    confessions."

 9            I want you to help us, if you can, please, as to what you know of

10    that practice and whether you have information as to whether it was a

11    systematic practice or not.

12       A.   That was a systematic practice.  Exactly the lawyers that they are

13    mentioned here, I had quite well-established lawyers, contacts with the

14    lawyers, so they've been the source of serious cases and informations to

15    (redacted) had own lawyer who

16    was following just because of that different procedures so we could

17    somehow warn public if something like that is happening.  But yes, it was

18    quite often and systematic.

19            My understanding was that witnessing, I don't know, maybe -- maybe

20    that's a history then and it's not important, but in 1996 and 1997 there

21    were a lot of attacks on different targets, usually police forces and

22    sometimes loyal Albanians.  And KLA was taking, actually for public

23    statements possibility for this.  And somehow it was a circle, they would

24    then enter the house and arrest everybody in relation and then torture all

25    family to extract some -- some of this -- to admit that they are

Page 10212

 1    terrorists and that would make more terrorists coming through.

 2       Q.   I want -- in the context of this specific research done by the

 3    (redacted), please, to look with you at a document which has

 4    been marked for identification as D194.

 5            And I'm going to go to specific passages of it, and so might I ask

 6    that this small bundle of documents be handed around.

 7            The document, the extract of which is behind tab 2 in this bundle,

 8    is D194, and it's a (redacted) report authored by

 9    Natasa Kandic and dated November 2001 but relating to events during 1998

10    and 1999.

11            And I wonder -- could I ask you behind tab 2A -- I'm sorry, behind

12    tab 2B to look at page 12, first of all.  And just about two-thirds of the

13    way down the page, the last full paragraph before the quotation, it

14    reads:

15            "Torture was systematically applied towards the detained ethnic

16    Albanian citizens.  They were subjected to most severe methods of physical

17    and psychological maltreatment and cruel, inhumane, and degrading

18    treatment during the time -- entire time of their detention."

19            And there's then a reference to the conditions in which people

20    were held, with denial of medical help, medicine, food, and drink.

21            And it goes on:

22            "They were inhumanly and cruelly punished by being tied to a

23    light-post, beaten with batons, with electrical -- electric and baseball

24    bats, including torture by using electric shocks."

25            And then there's a reference to a list of individuals for who

Page 10213

 1    there was a serious indication that they had died in detention as a

 2    consequence of torture.

 3            Now, is that the group of individuals that you were referring to

 4    earlier on?

 5       A.   No, that's -- as I remember -- but I am familiar with these names,

 6    except for one --

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Emmerson.

 8            THE WITNESS:  Rexhep Musaku, I don't remember that name.  This is

 9    Uvisevac [phoen] case.  Trials monitored with a separate department with

10    (redacted), but we also as the researchers were

11    interviewing actually family members, how they were arrested and, what was

12    happening.

13            Concretely, I recognise the names.  I don't know the details,

14    except Rexhep Musaku case, name I don't recognise.

15            MR. EMMERSON:

16       Q.   Based on the interviews you were conducting during your time in

17    Kosovo, do you agree with the conclusion that torture was systematically

18    applied?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Thank you.  And if we could just turn to paragraph 20, please --

21    I'm sorry, page 20, paragraph 2.1.  Again, by reference to statements

22    taken by (redacted).

23            At the bottom of that page is a paragraph which reads as follows:

24    "The detained Albanians faced hours of maltreatment so that they would

25    admit an act, sign some statement, i.e. so that they would repeat the

Page 10214

 1    story to the investigative judge, a story that had been extorted from them

 2    by the MUP organs.  Before an accused was taken to the investigative

 3    judge, the MUP members combined their methods of violence (by beating with

 4    batons, draining with hunger, thirst, and sleeplessness) by threats and

 5    blackmail, so as to 'form' the prisoner's statement."

 6            And then there's an example:

 7            "Faik Hoti was told that he would 'be killed completely', while

 8    Danush Kurtaj was told that he would be tortured when he returns from the

 9    investigative judge if he changes the statement he confirmed to the

10    police."

11            My first question is:  Does that summary information accurately

12    reflect information given to you from lawyers that you interviewed?

13       A.   Yes.

14       Q.   And secondly, this, we've heard some evidence --

15       A.   Although, this case is coming from the period where I already

16    haven't been there, but it does reflect --

17       Q.   All right.

18            MR. RE:  Can we just clarify this.  It appears from my reading of

19    this report it that relates to events either in 1999 or to places outside

20    the indictment area.  If Mr. Emmerson could clarify that, I'd be satisfied

21    by where it's going.

22            MR. EMMERSON:  Well --

23            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Emmerson.

24            MR. EMMERSON:  There's a series of specific examples given, some

25    of them inside the indictment area, some of them outside.  For example,

Page 10215

 1    there was an 1999 example in May from the municipality of Pec.  And there

 2    are certainly examples within the interviews of allegations made during

 3    the indictment period.  But the questions that I'm putting to the witness

 4    are based on the interviews that she conducted whether the conclusions in

 5    the report are consistent with the information that she was obtaining from

 6    detained Albanians and their lawyers.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Re, I think it -- that clarifies.  But, of

 8    course, if it's consistent with events that took place later, then, of

 9    course, it might not be of any relevance, Mr. --

10            MR. EMMERSON:  Yes.  Perhaps I should clarify that with the

11    witness.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, please do so.

13            MR. EMMERSON:

14       Q.   Was this consistent with information that was provided to you

15    about detentions during 1998?

16       A.   Yes.

17            MR. RE:  I still object.  That still doesn't make it relevant.

18    The fact that (redacted) report refers to things in 1999 doesn't -- it can't

19    make it relevant for some things the Serbs might have done in 1998 in the

20    indictment area.  And --

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Well --

22            MR. RE:  -- further, what is the relevance to the allegations

23    before the Court?

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, what -- as far as I understand, Mr. Emmerson is

25    now asking, but -- is whether the information which we find in the report

Page 10216

 1    to some extent covering the indictment period, to some extent outside the

 2    indictment period, whether that was consistent with the information that

 3    was provided to you by the detentions during 1998.

 4            I think the 1998 detentions are important, what happened later on

 5    could --

 6            MR. EMMERSON:  Exactly so.  Which is why I'm not relying on the

 7    interviews themselves but on the witness's testimony that what is here

 8    reflected --

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Could you then please focus on what in the interviews

10    the witness held was said about detention in 1998.

11            MR. EMMERSON:  Yes, exactly so.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

13            MR. EMMERSON:

14       Q.   Let me just, for the sake of absolute clarity, put the position to

15    you specifically:  From interviews carried out by you and your

16    organisation with detained Albanians and their lawyers, was it -- was it a

17    common occurrence that it would be reported to you that torture was

18    practiced?

19       A.   Yes.

20       Q.   Was it so common as to be capable, in your judgement, of being

21    described as "systematic"?

22       A.   Yes.

23       Q.   And that would have covered the whole of Kosovo, including the

24    Dukagjin area?

25       A.   Yes.

Page 10217

 1       Q.   And --

 2       A.   Mostly -- mostly after the -- when arrests happened, after the

 3    summer clashes between the KLA and police forces.  Then there would be

 4    systematic arrests of the people and then whoever was arrested was

 5    tortured.

 6       Q.   But you noticed similar allegation between --

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Could we -- could we first ask:  When you are talking

 8    about the summer clashes, you are referring to the summer 1998 clashes?

 9            THE WITNESS:  1998, yeah.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

11            Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.

12            MR. EMMERSON:

13       Q.   But you recorded yourself within your organisation similar

14    allegations being made has early as the 24th of March following those

15    clashes in Gllojane?

16       A.   1997 also.

17       Q.   Now, referring to the passage I just took you to, there was a

18    record there of individual -- of an individual being threatened that

19    unless he repeated before the investigating judge a statement that had

20    been beaten from him in police custody, he would be beaten when he returns

21    from the investigative judge.

22            Now, I just want to ask if you can help us with that a little.

23    We've heard some testimony in this court that once a person has been

24    brought before the investigative judge they would not be returned to the

25    custody of the MUP but would be returned to a form of investigative

Page 10218

 1    detention so that they could not thereafter be beaten by the officers who

 2    may have used force to extract their confession.

 3       A.   Mm-hm.

 4       Q.   Can you help us as to whether that's accurate or not, from the

 5    system as you understood it?

 6       A.   I have to say that at the moment when I worked there, my job was

 7    just to somehow coordinate and cover events, events, events.  And the --

 8    all monitoring of the trials.  I was updated as it -- the time goes, but I

 9    didn't really follow the trials.

10       Q.   Yes.

11       A.   So I just have that kind of knowledge listening my colleagues,

12    lawyers, and others.

13       Q.   And based on your conversation with your colleagues and lawyers,

14    were there allegations of people being threatened by the MUP that unless

15    they repeated their statements before the investigative judge they would

16    be beaten afterwards?

17       A.   Yes, that was typical.

18       Q.   And, again, are you able to comment on the suggestion that it

19    wouldn't be possible for the MUP to beat a suspect after he or she had

20    appeared before the investigative judge?

21       A.   I can't comment that.

22       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

23            MR. EMMERSON:  Your Honour, I see the time.  Would this be a

24    convenient moment to take a break?

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, it would be a convenient moment.

Page 10219

 1            Could I, at the same time, inquire into the time Defence counsel

 2    expect still to need.

 3            MR. EMMERSON:  I have quite a considerable amount of material to

 4    cover with this witness.  Might I give Your Honour an accurate time

 5    estimate when we return?

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7            MR. EMMERSON:  Thank you.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Then we'll have a break until quarter past 4.00.

 9                          --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

10                          --- On resuming at 4.33 p.m.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  The Chamber apologises for the late start.

12            Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.

13            MR. EMMERSON:

14       Q.   Can I ask you, please, just to turn to paragraph 46 of your

15    witness statement once again very briefly, where you are referring to some

16    interviews that were conducted with Serb families in Decani.

17            I just want to ask you this.  You say:  "we interviewed as many

18    refugees as we could."  When you say "we interviewed" --

19            It may be just wise if we --

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Turn into private session.

21            MR. EMMERSON:  I may be overcautious but ...

22                          [Private session]

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 10220











11    Pages 10220-10237 redacted. Private session.















Page 10238

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17                          [Open session]

18            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

20            MR. EMMERSON:

21       Q.   I just want to see if I've understood the evidence that you've

22    given so far in -- in connection with armed incidents in the area of

23    Baballoq in April correctly.

24            If we could start, please, with paragraph 42 of your statement.

25    You say there that as far as you could recall at that time, that is, the

Page 10239

 1    28th of April, there was no MUP station based in the settlement, although

 2    you had information from refugees that the MUP were patrolling regularly.

 3            And then you say, rather -- in connection with your interviews of

 4    Albanian refugees, that they insisted that the police was shooting at them

 5    from Suka Baballoq, Suka Crmljane, the Baballoq settlement, and the

 6    Agro-Combinat behind the Baballoq settlement.  Is that correctly

 7    understood?

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   So the accounts that you were receiving from the Albanian refugees

10    that you were interviewing included the suggestion that police were firing

11    from the settlement itself.

12       A.   Yes, but after 20th, because then the refugees started leaving the

13    villages.

14       Q.   And did you manage to conduct any investigation yourself about the

15    deployment of Serb police or military in and around the Babaloc refugee

16    camp?

17       A.   I drove - and this sounds fantastic, but I did - I drove to

18    Agro-Combinat.  I left Albanian researchers in some of the villages near

19    Djakovica.  I drove to Agro-Combinat behind to check that.  And I didn't

20    see any movements there.  But bear in mind we are talking about 29th, and

21    I think that all of this already happened --

22       Q.   Yes.

23       A.   -- between 20th or 25th.

24       Q.   Come back to the 22nd or so in a moment or two.

25            We have heard from a man called Rade Repic, who was the commander

Page 10240

 1    of a PJP company of the MUP, who arrived to relieve another PJP company in

 2    May, and he has told us that in May, the greater part of his company, 130

 3    to 150 men, was deployed in the area of the Baballoq settlement with

 4    observation posts on Suka Baballoq and on the outskirts.

 5            Now, did you see whether there were any deployments on Suka

 6    Baballoq?

 7       A.   No, I didn't.  But "Suka" means actually top of the hill.

 8       Q.   Yes.

 9       A.   I didn't see that.  But it was April.  He's talking about May?

10       Q.   Quite correct.  But you had received reports of shooting from Suka

11    Baballoq in April, had you not?

12       A.   Suka Babaloc and Suka Crmljanska.

13       Q.   Yes.  But you weren't able to check whether in fact there were MUP

14    or PJP forces in that area?

15       A.   No, actually the settlement was empty when I was there.  Literally

16    empty.  Nobody except these three people sitting there.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  May I again -- may I again ask you to make a short

18    break between question and answer.

19            Where you said about the reports of shooting from Suka Babaloc in

20    April, you said Suka Babaloc and Suka?

21            THE WITNESS:  Suka Crmljanska.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you.

23            MR. EMMERSON:

24       Q.   He's also testified that when he -- his men were deployed there,

25    they were occupying the physical accommodation in the refugee camp closest

Page 10241

 1    to the road.

 2       A.   That could be quite possible.  That's what Albanian witnesses

 3    testified.

 4       Q.   That's what they were telling you.  And they were telling you that

 5    in April as well; is that correct?

 6       A.   They were telling that in April, yeah.

 7       Q.   Yes.  So although you didn't see MUP --

 8       A.   I didn't see.

 9       Q.   -- when you went to the Agro-Combinat, your -- the accounts that

10    you were receiving were consistent with there being --

11       A.   In May.  But can I say I had some reserves about that, because

12    in -- in reality first time when I heard that special -- that more troops

13    are coming and almost preparing for the conflict was beginning of May, mid

14    of May, and I understand with a researcher who went also to Decani to the

15    interview to interview Serbian refugees there that she was not allowed to

16    go up to the youth hostel because there was some police forces there.

17       Q.   You say in paragraph 42, as I've understood it, in the second

18    sentence, you say:

19            "My information from the refugees was that the MUP were patrolling

20    regularly the area."

21       A.   Yeah.

22       Q.   Now, do you mean the area around the Baballoq settlement?

23       A.   The Babaloc settlement, yeah.

24       Q.   And the refugees that you were referring to in that settlement,

25    they would be Serb refugees?

Page 10242

 1       A.   Or Montenegrin.

 2       Q.   Yes, I'm sorry, Serbian or Montenegrin refugees.

 3            Did you manage to establish then exactly where those patrols were

 4    situated during April?

 5       A.   No.  They just complained that nobody was helping them except

 6    Serbian police that are visiting them from time to time.

 7       Q.   Yes.  And just coming to the incidents that you describe between

 8    the 18th and 28th of April, I just wanted to see if you could help us with

 9    one matter, please.  Just bear with me one second.

10            Could we please pull up on the screen Exhibit P84.  And this will

11    need to be not shown to the public, because it has been admitted under

12    seal, as I understand it.

13            Now, the document that we're looking at here, Witness, is a

14    situation report by the British military attache to Belgrade reporting an

15    armed engagement around Baballoq on the 22nd of April.  Do you see that?

16       A.   Yeah.

17       Q.   And if we look at the summary:

18            "FRY warned" -- that is, warned by the British government -- "of

19    concern at reported Yugoslav Army involvement in fighting around Babaloc

20    on the 22nd of April."

21            And then under "detail":

22            "Telecons under reference discussed media reports of fighting

23    around Babaloc" -- and location is given -- "in which the Yugoslav Army

24    was said to be involved, and our grounds for considering them credible.

25    It was agreed that I should immediately warn the FRY of our concern."

Page 10243

 1            If we just pass --

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Emmerson.

 3            MR. EMMERSON:

 4       Q.   If we could just pass over paragraph 3, which describes the

 5    conversation with the chef de cabinet and pick it up at paragraph 4:

 6            "First secretary (in Pristina) has subsequently talked to a number

 7    of journalists reporting events.  There are conflicting views with some

 8    believing army and special forces are involved, others maintaining there

 9    is no direct evidence of this.  It appears that Serb forces (of whatever

10    composition) in the area were reinforced yesterday, with a position

11    established on the hill overlooking the village.  Today Albanians reacted,

12    leading to exchanges of fire, possibly including mortars."

13            Do you see that?

14       A.   Yes.  Yes.

15            MR. EMMERSON:  I'm sorry, we're just waiting.

16       Q.   Now, obviously you can see this document is dated the 22nd of

17    April, but it refers to events that took place prior to that, including a

18    specific influx and exchange the day before.

19       A.   21st, yeah.

20       Q.   Yes.  Is this the armed engagement that you were describing to us

21    earlier on, do you think?

22       A.   Yes, except here there is not that side that I was told about

23    shooting on the 19th, on the Easter, from Babaloc side towards the

24    settlement.

25       Q.   Yes.

Page 10244

 1       A.   And it's true that some of the Albanian refugees mentioned

 2    military planes.

 3       Q.   Yes.

 4       A.   Military planes appearing in the area, yeah.

 5       Q.   So -- so just to return to Judge Orie's question.  I mean, you've

 6    had certain impressions given to you by Serb civilians.

 7       A.   Mm-hm.

 8       Q.   Including, for example, an impression given you about an incident

 9    that took place at the Baballoq refugee camp on the 28th of April.

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   But -- but does it appear to you clear that there were armed

12    engagements taking place between fairly considerable Serbian military

13    forces and forces on the other side during this period in April?

14       A.   Yes, it does, starting from 19th.

15       Q.   And you don't know where the Serb forces were based in relation to

16    the Baballoq refugee camp at that point.

17       A.   No, except what Albanian refugees told and what Serbian refugees

18    said.

19       Q.   And the Albanians told you they were in the refugee camp shooting

20    from there.

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And the Serbian refugees told you they were patrolling in the

23    area.

24       A.   Not only that, but it was conflicting also in the dates because

25    Serbian refugees said that actually Albanian KLA forces are on the Suka e

Page 10245

 1    Babaloc at 18th night and 19th in the morning and during the day.

 2       Q.   So --

 3       A.   I think they also mentioned in Katik [phoen] the roads that night

 4    between 19th and 20th so that the KLA controlled the Decani-Djakovica

 5    road.

 6       Q.   So a fairly conflicting picture --

 7       A.   Yeah.

 8       Q.   -- but some significant armed engagements taking place on both

 9    sides?

10       A.   Yes.

11       Q.   Thank you.  Just one or two other matters, if I may, briefly with

12    you.

13            You -- from paragraph 78 onwards describe certain matters

14    concerning the arrival of the FARK.  And just to understand the basis for

15    your recollection, you indicate in paragraph 78 that you think that they

16    arrived around May.

17       A.   Yes.

18       Q.   And a little further on, you describe - bear with me a moment - a

19    situation that arose in Isnic which led to the evacuation --

20       A.   Evacuation.

21       Q.   -- of civilians and FARK troops, which you describe as having

22    taken place in July.

23       A.   I think it was July, in the summer.

24       Q.   Yes.  I mean, you don't have any records of these -- of the

25    information or the sources of your information for this, do you?

Page 10246

 1       A.   Not really, no.

 2       Q.   No.  I mean, it -- you could -- would you accept you could be out

 3    by several months?

 4       A.   For -- you mean for the summer for the refugees or for -- for

 5    FARK?

 6       Q.   For the arrival of FARK and the issues that you're describing?

 7       A.   I'm not sure, because I think that the same period, in the end of

 8    April, there was a big funeral, again, in Erec and it was a big political

 9    event.

10       Q.   Sorry, we may be at cross-purposes here.  Before you -- before you

11    carry on, I'm asking you about the dates that you've given here in

12    relation, first of all, to the arrival --

13       A.   That's why I'm explaining --

14       Q.   Oh, sorry.

15       A.   I'm trying to explain why I think it happened in May, because in

16    March and April LDK still didn't know how to deal with KLA appearance and

17    the fights.  And by the end of April on that big funeral, big political

18    names appeared and -- in Erec and there was kind of popular invitation for

19    the -- for uprising.

20       Q.   And --

21       A.   And that's, I think, that's in my head now is that somehow then

22    FARK appears together.

23       Q.   Yes.  Would you accept that their arrival in Kosovo could have

24    been as late as the last week of June?

25       A.   I don't think that they arrived so late.

Page 10247

 1       Q.   I'm just trying to understand probing the sources and accuracy of

 2    your information.  And the incident in Isnic where Vukmir Mrksic delivered

 3    an ultimatum for the surrender of weapons.  You put that in July.  Could

 4    that have been as late as September?

 5       A.   No, not really.  It was summer.  It was time when Orahovac also

 6    was attacked.

 7       Q.   Thank you.

 8       A.   I think.

 9       Q.   And finally in paragraph 82, you -- you describe the decision of

10    Tahir Zemaj to surrender weapons, and so forth.  And you -- you refer to

11    Albanians that you interviewed later.

12       A.   Yeah.

13       Q.   Telling you what Ramush Haradinaj thought about that decision.

14            First of all, can you tell us, please, the names of the people, if

15    you know them, who gave you that information?

16       A.   This is really basically hearsay.  I don't think that I can at

17    all.

18       Q.   Well, that's -- that's quite important --

19       A.   Yeah.

20       Q.   -- for us to understand that.

21       A.   Yeah, because really -- and that's what I also said to the

22    Prosecutor why I think my -- my testimony was not of great importance.  I

23    mean, I was not a witness of the crimes or victim of the crime.

24       Q.   Yes, just --

25       A.   And the fact is that it was talk in Balkan way.  You do some

Page 10248

 1    things, you hear the other things.

 2       Q.   Can we take it, please, then that what you have recorded here as

 3    having been a -- a statement of Mr. Haradinaj's position is really nothing

 4    more than rumour or gossip?

 5       A.   I -- I don't know what he really said, and I'm not sure even that

 6    these people who told me that were witness, yeah.

 7       Q.   Yeah.

 8       A.   But it's kind of -- quite well-known story there in Kosovo.  Then

 9    and now.

10       Q.   Thank you very much.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Guy-Smith, or Mr. Harvey, who is going to be

12    first?

13            MR. GUY-SMITH:  I offered and he offered back.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Then please proceed.

15            Witness 28, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith, who's

16    counsel for Mr. Balaj.

17            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Considering the time that we took to start, when

18    does the Chamber wish to take -- I just want to know --

19            JUDGE ORIE:  We had -- of course, we returned later than expected.

20            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Right.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Under normal circumstances, I would have a break at

22    quarter to 6.00 then for 20 minutes and then have 55 minutes remaining

23    after the break.

24            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  But if you'd say "I need so and so much time," we

Page 10249

 1    could even consider to have the break once you've finished.

 2            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Okay.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Unless that would be too late.

 4            MR. GUY-SMITH:  I don't -- I think we'll probably be able -- we'll

 5    be close to the normal --

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Quarter to 6.00.

 7            MR. GUY-SMITH:  We'll be close to our normal time, in any event.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 9            Mr. Harvey, could you give already an indication, even before

10    having heard the questions put by Mr. Guy-Smith?

11            MR. HARVEY:  I shall be brief.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, thank you.

13            Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.

14                          Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:

15       Q.   Witness 28, you mentioned early in your testimony today that you

16    relied on a number of sources for the information that you were compiling,

17    and so I'm clear, was one of those sources the Council for the Defence of

18    Human Rights and Freedoms in Kosovo?

19       A.   Yeah.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Guy-Smith, if -- if you would not mind that I

21    interrupt you for a moment I just received an urgent request.  I have to

22    break at 5.30.  So therefore we'll have a break at 5.30.  I apologise, but

23    I wasn't aware of that --

24            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Not a problem.

25            JUDGE ORIE:   -- two minutes ago.

Page 10250

 1            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Not a problem.

 2            JUDGE ORIE:  Please proceed.

 3            MR. GUY-SMITH:  And perhaps we should go in -- into private

 4    session for a moment.

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  We'll turn into private session.

 6                          [Private session]

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14  (redacted)

15  (redacted)

16  (redacted)

17  (redacted)

18  (redacted)

19  (redacted)

20  (redacted)

21  (redacted)

22  (redacted)

23  (redacted)

24  (redacted)

25  (redacted)

Page 10251











11    Page 10251 redacted. Private session.















Page 10252

 1  (redacted)

 2  (redacted)

 3  (redacted)

 4  (redacted)

 5  (redacted)

 6  (redacted)

 7  (redacted)

 8  (redacted)

 9  (redacted)

10  (redacted)

11  (redacted)

12  (redacted)

13  (redacted)

14                          [Open session]

15            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we're back in open session.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

17            MR. GUY-SMITH:  And I'm mindful of the fact that I need to turn

18    the microphone off when she's answering the question.  Correct?  Thank

19    you.

20       Q.   I'd like you to, if you could, turn to report number 402.  And I

21    believe the tab says "402", which for purposes of e-court is 2D001116.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  And that would need a number if you want to tender

23    that, Mr. Guy-Smith.

24            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

Page 10253

 1            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be marked for

 2    identification as D195.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 4            MR. GUY-SMITH:  And if we -- if we could, starting on page 1 in

 5    the comment section of that - and by that I mean the very first paragraph

 6    before it discusses the events in the Drenica region and surround -.

 7       Q.   Were you aware of the arrest of Rasim Muhamet Selmanaj?

 8       A.   Yes, I was.  Later was tried also by Serbian court.

 9       Q.   And if we could turn now to page 2, the date being the 27th of

10    March, under the title of "Shtime."  Were you aware of what happened with

11    Shefqet Krasniqi, who was a teacher, who was taken to the security centre

12    in Ferizaj on the 26th and 27th of March, where he was severely

13    ill-treated and threatened with imprisonment as a 'possible organiser' of

14    the Albanian demonstrations?

15       A.   I'm sorry, I can't find this part of the report.

16            No, for this case, I can't recollect.  I can't remember.

17       Q.   Okay.  In -- in March of 1998, there were a series of

18    demonstrations that were still occurring throughout Kosovo which were

19    peaceful demonstrations, as they could be called, where -- whereby

20    Albanian individuals were protesting against what they perceived to be

21    Serbian, let's say, abuses, aggression, or otherwise mistreatment?  Is

22    that a fair statement?

23       A.   Protests -- I actually was there when the protests occurred, and

24    they've been -- they occurred after the Prekaz event.  I think women also

25    protested and students for the -- for the massacre that happened in

Page 10254

 1    Prekaz, if it is that protest we are talking in March.

 2       Q.   And after the protest in March, did you become aware of the fact

 3    that the protesters or any of the protesters were arrested by the Serbian

 4    police for their peaceful protest activity?

 5       A.   I do think that we covered this arrests.  I can't recollect now

 6    specific cases, but we do -- we did follow that.

 7       Q.   Did you learn whether or not any of those protesters, after having

 8    been arrested, suffered any injuries as a result of having been arrested

 9    and being imprisoned for whatever period of time they were imprisoned?

10       A.   I -- I just can say that I would expect them to be probably beaten

11    in arrest, but I really can't remember specific name now.

12       Q.   Well, if you can't remember a specific name, that's fine, then.  I

13    understand your general attitude about the situation.

14            Continuing with this report, on the 28th of March it indicates

15    that a plane of armed forces of the Yugoslav Army flew very low over the

16    Gjakova territory in the area on the border with Albania.  At about 12

17    p.m. a convoy of military and police forces from Gjakova was situated in

18    Kodra e Hasit village, seven kilometres away from the town."

19       A.   Mm-hm.

20       Q.   Were -- was your organisation aware of -- of those kinds of

21    mobilisations, specifically this mobilisation?

22       A.   We have been receiving reports and interviewing people who were

23    fleeing the border zone toward Djakovica, and there were frequent reports

24    about military stopping the smuggling of the weapons and also some people

25    were missing.  A couple reports about missing people we did put together.

Page 10255

 1       Q.   And one -- and one last question before we take the break.  These

 2    reports were reports, if I -- if I understood your testimony correctly

 3    that, you received on a daily basis.  You were getting the information

 4    contemporaneously as these events were unfolding.

 5       A.   Yes,  from KIC, and they record this and we followed these events.

 6            MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could take the break at this point.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, we'll have a break.

 8            As far as I can expect now, it will be a break of 20 minutes.  We

 9    will then resume at ten minutes to 6.00.  But I can't give a promise to

10    that.  Everyone should stay -- remain stand-by on from ten minutes to

11    6.00.

12                          --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.

13                          --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Guy-Smith, may I now expect you to finish not

15    later than quarter past?

16            Please proceed.

17            MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'll do my best.

18            MR. HARVEY:  Your Honours, if I could indicate, it is unlikely

19    that I will have more than one question for this witness, and so

20    Mr. Guy-Smith might be entitled to a slight -- a larger slice of the pie

21    than that, but -- with respect.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

23            Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

24            Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.

25            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

Page 10256

 1       Q.   One of the things that was -- was occurring, of course, was that

 2    apart from getting the daily information, there was also delayed

 3    information that was coming in to -- to you, in terms of the kinds of

 4    things that were occurring on the ground during this period of time;

 5    correct?

 6       A.   I quite didn't understand this.  Can you repeat?

 7       Q.   Absolutely.  Apart from receiving information on a daily basis,

 8    also what was happening was you were receiving some information concerning

 9    events that had occurred earlier and you got the information a little bit

10    later, later in the week, for example.

11       A.   Later in the week, yes.

12       Q.   Okay.  And in -- for example - I'm looking at page 3, and I'm

13    still dealing with the very -- the very same report, that's report number

14    402, under "Delayed information."

15            If you go down to the - one, two, three - it's the third paragraph

16    from the bottom.  It says:

17            "On 19 March, after the Albanians' peaceful protest, some armed

18    Serbs chased some students with the" -- and then names the gymnasium --

19    "and forced them to jump into the Drini i Bardhe River."

20            And my question to you is -- do you see that there?

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   My question to you there is:  Essentially what was happening at

23    this period of time was, not only was there increased tensions as between

24    the -- the Albanian civilians and the police but there was also increased

25    tensions between Serbian civilians and Albanian civilians during that

Page 10257

 1    period of time because of what was going on?

 2       A.   Yeah.  This is -- only -- 'cause Serbs had all positions in the

 3    towns and control all positions while in the villages Serbs were minority

 4    and as such had actually a difficult time.

 5       Q.   Okay.  If we could now move to the next report, which is report

 6    number 403, which is 2D1110.  And if we could get a MFI number for that,

 7    please, I'd appreciate it.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be marked for

10    identification as D196.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

12            MR. GUY-SMITH:  And if we could, I'd like to -- I'd like to jump

13    to page -- to page 2, dealing with the date of April 2nd.

14       Q.   And on April 2nd, it indicates under "Mitrovica" -- could we --

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Could we first wait until it's -- no, it's -- the

16    witness has a copy, yes.

17            Please proceed.

18            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Thank you.

19       Q.   Under "Mitrovica" it says:  "The police check-points at Qipol

20    [phoen], Turnovac [phoen] and Kline e Eperme were reinforced."  Are those

21    check-points that you had gone through that were Serbian check-points

22    while you were traveling in the area?

23       A.   Yeah, they were check-points surrounding basically Drenica region,

24    Glogovac, Mitrovica, and Srbica.

25       Q.   Now moving to April 4th, it indicates, under "Skenderaj," that:

Page 10258

 1    "At 5 a.m. the village of Lausha was shelled from different kinds of

 2    weapons."

 3            Were you aware of that shelling?

 4       A.   We've been aware and we interviewed many of the villagers of

 5    Dreznica.

 6       Q.   And finally on that same page, page 2, it says "The events in the

 7    district of Decan."  And if you go down from the first line of "Decan,"

 8    one, two, three -- to the fourth line that says:

 9            "The gravest situation is in the villages of Gllogjan, Dubrave,

10    Shaptej, and Prekolluke or" --

11       A.   Prekolluke.

12       Q.   Thank you, Prekolluke.  Were you aware of --

13       A.   I'm sorry, I can't see this.  Where is that?  April?

14       Q.   Yeah, under -- under "The events in the district of Decan."

15       A.   Mm-hm.  And what -- what is the date?

16       Q.   The date is still under April 4th.  And if you go down from where

17    it says -- it has the word "Decan."  You go, one, two, three, four lines

18    down.  The sentence starts with the word:  "The gravest situation is in

19    the villages of Gllogjan, Dubrave ..." Do you see that there?

20       A.   Yeah, okay.

21       Q.   Was that something you were aware of at the time it occurred, on

22    April 4th?

23       A.   Not on April 4th.  I was aware that Hime Haradinaj was buried and

24    that he died in the forest wounded.

25       Q.   Okay.  Moving on to the -- the next page.  And it seems that we're

Page 10259

 1    going back in time, in terms of dates.

 2            And if we could look at the date of March 30th and March 31st.

 3    You had mentioned that people were summoned for informative talks and you

 4    explained to the Chamber what informative talks were.

 5            I'd like you to take a look, first of all, at March 30th under the

 6    area of Prizren.  It indicates on the second line that Isa Berisha (1972)

 7    which I'm guessing was his birth date, "was once again summoned to the

 8    police under the pretext of being a member of the KLA.  He was ordered to

 9    report again on April 6th.  He was physically ill-treated."

10            Then on March 31st, under the line of Kacanik, it indicates that a

11    gentleman was summoned for informative talks in order to report again, and

12    the same thing happened to a Haki Baxhrimaj [phoen], who, I believe, was

13    born in 1943 in Giljan, he was also summoned for informative talks.

14    Correct?

15       A.   This cases I can't recognise.  We didn't investigate this cases.

16       Q.   Okay.  But --

17       A.   We actually couldn't cope with so many different abuses, so we had

18    to basically pick several cases that we could then in -- and in-depth

19    research.

20       Q.   Understood.  With regard to the language used of "informative

21    talks," was that a phrase that was used by not only your group but also by

22    this group to describe a particular kind of summoning of an individual by

23    the police to the police station with -- with the resultant things that

24    you've told us about, including the beatings and other abuses?  So it was

25    understood that when you saw that language, "informative talks," that

Page 10260

 1    there was some concern about there being some kind of human rights abuse

 2    with regard to that individual?

 3       A.   Yes.  Yes.

 4       Q.   If we could turn to page 5 of the same document, under "Delayed

 5    information."  In Kline and -- I'm -- it says:

 6            "On March 5th, Mark Oroshi (1959) from the village of Leskoc, an

 7    activist of the LDK, was summoned to the Serbian-run District Court in

 8    Klina."

 9            Now, by this time - and by that I mean in April - the LDK was

10    engaged in what was generally considered to be still a peaceful attempt at

11    resolution, was it not?

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Guy-Smith, you're developing a speed which is --

13            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Understood.  I'll slow down.

14       Q.   Do you have my question in mind?

15       A.   Yes.  I believe at that point, as I can remember the political

16    situation, Serbs -- Serbian regime didn't really make the difference

17    between KLA and LDK, so everything was put on the back of LDK what was

18    happening with different KLA activities.

19       Q.   Okay.  This gentleman was summoned to the Serbian-run District

20    Court in Klina.  He was arrested and severely ill-treated for allegedly

21    being an associate of the KLA.  Police threatened to cut his genital

22    organs.  Due to injuries suffered, he had to seek for medical help.  On

23    March 16th, he was once again taken to court.

24            Are you aware of this particular case?

25       A.   This particular case, no.

Page 10261

 1       Q.   At the -- there are a number other instances --

 2            JUDGE HOEPFEL:  Sorry.

 3            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4            JUDGE HOEPFEL:  Mr. Guy-Smith, can you slow down.

 5            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes, I can.  My concern is -- my concern quite

 6    frankly is this, Your Honour.  I'm looking -- I'm looking at the clock,

 7    and I am in the second of 23 reports and I want to get through them.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  You may proceed.

 9            MR. GUY-SMITH:  [French spoken] And I have now turned to the

10    French channel in order to work with the interpreters.

11            MR. RE:  Just --

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Re.

13            MR. RE:  Just in terms of scheduling, we do have another witness

14    here at the moment.  Could I just inform the Trial Chamber and the parties

15    the witness has made some minor changes to his proposed Rule 92 ter

16    statement, and they're in the process of being translated.

17            Now, Mr. Di Fazio said he could either inform the Defence orally

18    of what these are and give them a copy of it or start with the witness

19    orally, if we get to him, or start in the morning.  Those are the options

20    at the moment.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Looking at our schedule for the coming days and

22    the coming weeks, I'd rather not lose even a minute in court; although,

23    I'm aware that the Chamber today have stolen -- has stolen also some time,

24    but there were good reasons for that.

25            Mr. Guy-Smith, even with -- at the French speed, how much time

Page 10262

 1    would you think you would still need?  Another ten minutes?

 2            MR. GUY-SMITH:  I believe that realistically I will be at least

 3    another 20 to 25 minutes.

 4            JUDGE ORIE:  How much time would you need in re-examination?

 5            MR. RE:  I'll probably need about five minutes.

 6            But just in relation to the next witness.  Could I say that he

 7    actually arrived at our office at about 4.00, having been delayed at the

 8    airport.  So we didn't actually get to speak to him until 4.00 p.m. and

 9    have made all efforts to --

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Emmerson.

11            MR. EMMERSON:  Sorry to rise, I'm just slightly puzzled because

12    I'm not aware of the Prosecution having served a 92 ter statement for this

13    next witness.

14            MR. RE:  No, it's his statement.  We would have just --

15            JUDGE ORIE:  His statement --

16            MR. RE:  We would just seek to adopt it, that's all.

17            What we were only -- we were just going to rely upon that

18    statement.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  It's the February 2006 statement, yes.

20            MR. EMMERSON:  Well, if it is proposed that --

21            JUDGE ORIE:  I suggest that we at this moment do not take any

22    final decision on whether we could continue and certainly not bother

23    Witness 28 with our procedural discussions.

24            Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.

25            MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could now -- now turn to the next report,

Page 10263

 1    number 406, which is 2D1101.  And if we could have an MFI number, I'd

 2    appreciate it, please.

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 4            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be marked for

 5    identification as D197.

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

 7            MR. GUY-SMITH:  And if we could now turn to page 2.

 8       Q.   And this is with regard to events of April 21st discussing what

 9    was occurring in Decan.  It states:

10            "At 10.45 a.m. Serbian police and military forces attacked with

11    artillery and mortars the village of Baballoq.  Serbian forces accompanied

12    with armoured cars were stationed at the Suka e Baballocit and in the

13    vicinity of the refugee settlement."

14            It also says in the same paragraph, and I'm deleting some of the

15    language:

16            "The villagers are making attempts to organise their defence."

17            Now, with regard to the villages organising a defence, I take it

18    that what they're referring to here - if you know - are the Albanian

19    villagers in the villages of, for example, Likoshan, Qirez, Prekaze, where

20    you have civilian Albanians who out of a concern of what is occurring with

21    these Serbian military forces are doing their best to figure a way of

22    defending their homes?

23       A.   My understanding of these events was slightly different but,

24    again, I'm basing that on different testimonies.  I actually think that

25    there was attack on Babaloc settlement on 18th/19th, and then after that

Page 10264

 1    military forces -- Serbian military forces -- and as you can see, it's

 2    mentioned military planes that also many of the villagers said, returned

 3    attack and suppressed that.  So at that point, probably on 21st, it's true

 4    as it is said.

 5            I'm not quite sure was that just defence of the villagers at that

 6    point.

 7       Q.   And going on to the next day, the 22nd, under "Decan."  It

 8    indicates that:

 9            "Since the early hours of the morning, police and military forces

10    from Radoniqi Lake, the villages of Palabaldh and Boka and the refugee

11    settlement in Baballoq have been shelling Suka e Babollocit and Baballoq

12    itself."

13            Now, my question here is:  Is by -- by this time in April, had you

14    become aware of the extensive use of shelling by the Serbian police and

15    other forces of these villages?  And by that I mean villages which were

16    inhabited by Albanian civilians.

17       A.   Yes, I was.  Albanian refugees were talking about these shellings.

18    I am not sure that military forces were Radonjic Lake.  I just heard that

19    they were on Suka Babaloc and not in Babaloc itself.  In the Suka

20    Crmljanska, while all other villages were basically under control of KLA.

21    That was my understanding at the time.  But yes, they were shelling the

22    villages.

23       Q.   And the villages that were being bombarded were villages in which

24    there was a -- an extensive civilian population that -- that may or may

25    not have been supporting the -- the basic ideas of the KLA.  They were

Page 10265

 1    fellow travelers, you could say.

 2       A.   Yeah, that's possible.  That's possible.  Because I never

 3    encountered Serbian police making a real difference between civilians or

 4    KLA or supporters of KLA.  They usually just didn't mind -- thought it was

 5    the same.

 6       Q.   I believe last week you mentioned an individual by the name of

 7    Arkan.

 8       A.   Yes.

 9       Q.   And I'd like to refer you to page 7 of this document.  And under

10    the heading of "Prishtina" it says:

11            "Four military trucks full of soldiers paraded through the

12    Jabllanice road in Kodra e Trimave.  Arkan was seen in Hajvalia during a

13    visit to the Serbian special police units."

14       A.   I heard numerous times that Arkan's troops are coming and Arkan's

15    troops are there.  I actually don't think that Arkan was ever in Kosovo,

16    that his units at that point were not interfering there.  I just think it

17    was different units.  Different units and different paramilitary troops.

18    Not nicer.  But I just think that many Albanian villagers just by the pure

19    fact that "Arkan" meant something very nasty, as he was, was -- they were

20    always thinking that Arkan is coming or describing the Arkan units there.

21    I -- I was not aware that Arkan was there.

22       Q.   For a moment, if I could, you said "different units and different

23    paramilitary troops."  I take it that during your research what you did

24    learn during that time independent of your belief of whether or not it was

25    Arkan himself who was in Kosovo, was that there were other paramilitary

Page 10266

 1    troops who were operating in the region at that time.

 2       A.   Yeah.  If we clarify what "paramilitaries" really mean, because I

 3    believe that they were controlled by the -- by the centre in Belgrade, so

 4    there was no ad hoc at that point.  Maybe later during the bombardment.

 5    But in 1998 there was no ad hoc forces that would come just there and

 6    do -- do whatever they want.  They've been controlled.

 7            I knew for two.  One was called Lightning, Munja, and that was

 8    from Pec.  And I heard -- I seen this Sheshirdzije, as they were called.

 9    I don't know how to translate that in English really.  Somebody who wears

10    the hat.  And I seen them as such.  But I did believe they were special

11    forces -- different kind of special forces.  I'm not military expert.  So

12    I don't know more about that, let's say.

13       Q.   I'd like to turn to page 9 of the same document, if I could.  And

14    looking under the line item where it says "Gjilan," at the very last

15    sentence of that, it indicates that:  "On April 18th, Serbian forces in

16    the prison of Gjilan demanded from Albanian prisoners to vote on the

17    forthcoming referendum of April 23rd."

18            First of all, do you remember the referendum of April 23rd, what

19    that was about?

20       A.   I think that that was referendum that Milosevic government opened

21    for not interference of International Community into internal affairs.  I

22    think that it was that.  And I don't know for this case specific.

23       Q.   Did -- did you or your organisation ever receive any information

24    that those people who were detained in Serbian prisons were being forced

25    to vote in any particular kind of a way?

Page 10267

 1       A.   No.  No.

 2       Q.   Okay.

 3            If we could return to the next -- I'm sorry, if we could go to the

 4    next report, which is 2D1122, report number 408.

 5            I have just been corrected.  It should be 2D001122.

 6            If I could have an MFI number, please.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  That would be marked for identification number?

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  D198, Your Honours.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10            MR. GUY-SMITH:

11       Q.   During the -- during the time that you were involved in your

12    research, did you learn of the Serbian military using bright lights at

13    night as a form of either intimidating the population or, I would say,

14    panicking the population?  And I'm referring to, if you could look at page

15    2 under "May 1st."  And it's -- it's well down under "Decan," right before

16    the paragraph is over.  And it has the name of Halil Imer Lokaj. But my

17    interest is the following sentence:

18            "During the night, military forces are pointing their reflectors

19    towards houses in order to cause panic.  Fire was opened in the direction

20    of the village of Baballoq."

21            We've had testimony that Serbian forces saw lights at night in the

22    area which -- which they attributed to the KLA.  And my question to you

23    is:  Did you ever receive any information that -- that the Serbian forces

24    were using this particular form of warfare with the civilian population?

25       A.   I never heard for this.

Page 10268

 1       Q.   Very good.  Thank you.

 2            MR. RE:  Could I also note that --

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Re.

 4            MR. RE:  -- I don't recall this specific allegation being put, as

 5    should have been put under Rule -- Rule 90(H), to the witness, I think

 6    with Mr. Rade Repic, who gave this evidence.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Meaning that Mr. Guy-Smith would have to put his case

 8    to the witness?

 9            MR. RE:  Meaning that.  That's right.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  I beg your pardon?

11            MR. RE:  That's right.  If indeed it's the case of the Defence

12    that those lights were the Serbian forces, that should have been put to

13    the relevant witnesses at the relevant time.  I just note that in passing

14    so it could be put at the relevant point.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Since this witness -- this witness is not aware

16    of anything of the kind, let's proceed.

17            Mr. Guy-Smith.

18            MR. GUY-SMITH:  I -- I note Mr. -- I note Mr. Re's objection, and

19    I'm sure --

20            JUDGE ORIE:  It's on the record.

21            MR. GUY-SMITH:  At a point during this we're going to be dealing

22    with issues of what's good for the goose is good for the gander in a

23    variety of areas with regard to Prosecution, but we'll deal with that at

24    another point in time.

25            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, let's leave it for that moment, yes.

Page 10269

 1            Please proceed.

 2            MR. GUY-SMITH:  [Microphone not activated]

 3       Q.   Could we now turn to point number 414 --

 4            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5            JUDGE HOEPFEL:  Microphone, please.

 6            MR. GUY-SMITH:  [Microphone not activated] If I could have an MFI

 7    number for that.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 9            MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could now return to report number 414,

10    2D001094.  If we could have a MFI number, please.

11            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be D199.

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

13            MR. GUY-SMITH:

14       Q.   And I'd like to direct your attention to the 21st of May, under

15     "Decan," where it indicates the following:

16            "The situation in the district of Decan continues to be grave.

17    There was shooting and shelling towards the village of Baballoq.  The town

18    continues to be blocked.  Police and military forces are parading through

19    the town in a show of power.  The situation is very grave -- especially

20    is" -- I'm sorry, excuse me.  "The situation is very grave, especially in

21    the villages on the border with Albania and Junik.  Armed refugees are

22    participating in the attacks against the Albanian villages."

23            During the -- your research, did you become aware of a programme

24    from Belgrade where all Serbian men were to be reserve army fighters and

25    were issued weapons?

Page 10270

 1       A.   Well, that's not really even Milosevic invention.  That was

 2    Communist country, so all base of Yugoslav Army was that every person,

 3    civilian, has to go to the army and stays being a reservist all the way

 4    through until he's, like, 55, I think, or something like that.  So that

 5    was kind of Yugoslav law.

 6            And I -- I was aware that there were -- that there was attempt to

 7    arm Serbian civilians beginning of the March mostly in the villages where

 8    they been really nervous about attacks, and I was also aware that Serbian

 9    police very often didn't actually help when they really came under attack.

10    Like, for example, in Klina municipality.  So they would pull out, a

11    little bit defend themselves and then surrender and escape.  And Serbian

12    police wasn't -- didn't have at that time power to enter and do anything.

13            It was May, May when these events were happening.  Mostly in

14    Klina, with the Serbs.

15       Q.   Thank you.

16            In the -- going -- in the same document, looking at May 22nd,

17    under "Peja," it indicates that "Large police forces armed with heavy

18    weaponry were stationed on the hill over the villages of Gllogjan and

19    Nepole."

20            Were you aware of -- of that information?

21       A.   Are we talking about the Glodjane in Decani municipality?  I was

22    not aware of that information, and I actually doubt that it's true.  I

23    think it's first time really when Serbian police entered Rznic and

24    Glodjane was the end of August when they launched big offensive.  They did

25    try to launch, I think, nine offensives into Rznic and Glodjane, but they

Page 10271

 1    never really entered the -- the space, as far as I know.

 2       Q.   Now, just so we're clear, this is information - and by that I mean

 3    you were receiving, as I understood it, the -- the daily reports, the KIC

 4    reports, correct?

 5       A.   KIC.  And we were then but also that report needs to be

 6    double-checked in a -- in a way.  So I was not aware of that ever since,

 7    basically, after 25th of April to the end of August any police forces

 8    entered Glodjane.  I don't doubt.  I don't say it's true.  I just say I

 9    was not aware.  I'm surprised.

10       Q.   With -- with that in mind, then, turning to page -- page 4,

11    dealing with the date of May 23rd, once again in Decan, it indicates:

12            "Large police forces were stationed on the cross-road near Prejlep

13    on the road Decan-Gjakova.  They opened fire towards the villages of

14    Prejlep and Dranoc.  The situation is very dramatic.  20 APCs, 2 armoured

15    cars, 2 cannons, and large police forces made efforts to pass through the

16    villages of Carrabreg i Poshtem and Prejlep, but they clashed with the

17    forces of the KLA."

18       A.   My understanding was from May 23rd to May 31st, when actually the

19    fighting really started, that Serbian police and army mounted presence

20    there, as well as probably the other side was getting ready for the clash

21    over these -- controlling the road and opening toward the border.  That

22    was my understanding what was happening at that time.

23            JUDGE HOEPFEL:  Pardon.  We didn't really understand.  The

24    beginning of your answer was:  "My understanding was from May 23rd to May

25    21st."

Page 10272

 1            THE WITNESS:  31st.  31st, sorry, three-one.

 2            JUDGE HOEPFEL:  To May 31st.  Thank you.

 3            THE WITNESS:  Yeah.

 4            MR. GUY-SMITH:

 5       Q.   Turning to 2D001134, report number 416.

 6            If I could have a --

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, Mr. Registrar.

 8            MR. GUY-SMITH:  -- MFI number, please.

 9            THE REGISTRAR:  D200, Your Honours.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

11            MR. GUY-SMITH:  And if we could go down to the -- it's right in

12    about the middle of the page.  It says -- starts with the language, on the

13    second time, it says:

14            "On May 31st, the situations in the villages in the district of

15    Decan, as well as in the neighbouring villages is dramatic.  A war is

16    fought between Serbian police, military, and paramilitary forces and

17    Albanian villagers."

18       A.   Yeah, that's true.  On May 31st in the morning started a real

19    battle between Serbian police.  I would not say -- call that any more

20     "Albanian villagers."  I really think it was KLA.

21       Q.   And when you -- when you say that you really think it's -- it's

22    the KLA, did -- did you have at that time information that there were

23    villagers who were also at that time fighting, apart from the KLA?

24       A.   I -- my understanding of KLA at that time was that there was not

25    too many soldiers, so it was not powerful army but had support -- supports

Page 10273

 1    from the villagers and -- who basically joined because of belief in that

 2    way of fights and future of Kosovo or because they just got armed in fear

 3    of Serbian revenge.  But it was a mix of the villagers, armed villagers,

 4    and KLA soldiers.  Conscripts, I would say.  KLA.  'Cause as far as I

 5    remember, it lasted more than seven days and the media were forbidden to

 6    enter the -- enter that zone at all -- at all.  And it was after that in

 7    Decani many houses were burnt.  It was quite a stressful time for all

 8    civilians there.

 9       Q.   And -- and during that time, was the Mother Teresa foundation was

10    working in the area, was it not, in an attempt to bring aid to civilians

11    who were suffering from what was occurring at the time?

12       A.   I -- I remember Mother Teresa, yeah, working.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  That last question, relevance, Mr. Guy-Smith, becomes

14    more and more a question to me.

15            MR. GUY-SMITH:  There has been discussion about doctors being

16    stopped and being disallowed to give aid.  And to the extent that this is

17    something that occurred here and people who were in that position --

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Then please ask about what you're referring to as a

19    relevant issue.  I take it that you can't -- you can't frustrate the work

20    of doctors if there are no doctors.  That's for sure.  That's -- but let's

21    come to your point, if there's any specific issue.  Please proceed.

22            MR. GUY-SMITH:

23       Q.   Turning to page 7 of the same document, under the line of "Peja."

24    This is, once again, for the date of May 31st.  Were you aware of there

25    being clashes in the villages of -- of Raushiq?

Page 10274

 1       A.   Not really.  I thought that Rausic was later in the summer had

 2    clashes with -- with military.

 3       Q.   Very well.  If we could go to the next report, report number 418,

 4    2001156?

 5            JUDGE ORIE:  It needs a number, I take it?

 6            MR. GUY-SMITH:  It does.

 7            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

 8            THE REGISTRAR:  D201, Your Honours.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

10            MR. GUY-SMITH:

11       Q.   I'd like to point your attention now to page 2, under "Prishtina."

12    Were you aware of the fact that there was an -- an increased number of

13    soldiers coming into the region -- and I'm reading specifically the

14    following:

15            "Six cars with reservists and three covered cars probably with

16    weapons arrived at the railway station in Fushe-Kosova at about 10 a.m.

17    Over 1000 Serbian soldiers arrived at the railway station in Prishtine."

18       A.   Can you remind me of the date.  The date, can you remind me?

19       Q.   June 8th.

20       A.   June 8th.  In Pristina now?  I can't remember seeing military

21    presence in Pristina.  Yes, in Pec, not in Pristina.

22       Q.   Turning to page 3 on June 9th under "Gjakova."  There's an

23    indication that "The villages of Reka e Keqe and other villages in the

24    district of Decan were shelled from military bases in" -- and it names a

25    number of them.  "And Suka e Biteshit during the whole night.  Today

Page 10275

 1    Skivan, from where the population has moved to other parts, was shelled.

 2    The shelling from Boka e Zhdrelle is towards the 'Radoniqi' hydrosystem,

 3    may damage the dam and so endanger the whole population of the Dukagjini

 4    plain.  Large Serbian forces were concentrated in town and are checking

 5    all entrances and exits."

 6            Was that a concern of -- that your organisation was is that these

 7    Serbs were going to flood the plain by damaging the dam?

 8       A.   I have to say I never heard this.  I actually don't think that

 9    they could do it, because as far as I know, Radonjic hydrosystem was in

10    the back of the villages, that they actually didn't enter all the way

11    until the end of August.

12       Q.   We have quite a few reports here --

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

14            MR. GUY-SMITH:

15       Q.   -- which I'm not going to go through, but I'd like to ask you

16    this:  Because you've had an opportunity to see these reports and obtain

17    the information on a daily basis.  With regard to the Albanian civilians

18    who were killed, is the information that you've -- you've seen in that

19    regard that's contained in these reports accurate, as far as you're

20    concerned, based upon your experience?

21       A.   My experience was that the report was slightly avoiding to mention

22    KLA and was slightly presenting always villagers fighting, which was not

23    quite like that.  When we tried to check what -- on the ground what they

24    mentioned as abuse and torture prove -- was very often proven right and

25    never was mention in these reports anything what was happening with the

Page 10276

 1    other -- I mean, minority at that point, Serbs.  So I would say, yes, but

 2    was slightly twisted into the -- the situation that was suiting that for

 3    international media and creating the public opinion.  Slightly.  That was

 4    my feeling.

 5       Q.   Did you know a gentleman who was a lawyer and a member of the

 6    board of the CDHRF named Destan Rukiqi?

 7       A.   Rukiqi, yes.

 8            MR. GUY-SMITH:  If we could turn to D186, report number 426.

 9       Q.   I'd like to -- to discuss with you the following.  It's at the

10    bottom of page 1.

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Guy-Smith, of course, I do not know what your

12    next questions will be, but Chamber --

13            MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry, I --

14            JUDGE ORIE:   -- did not gain the impression that that -- that a

15    lot of -- going through these reports in such detail did greatly assist

16    the Chamber.  But, of course, since you are going back to one now, it

17    might be different.  We hope so.

18            MR. GUY-SMITH:

19       Q.   You had discussed earlier on issues concerning the judicial

20    process with Mr. Emmerson.  And my -- my question to you is:  Is the

21    information here, as far as you know, based on your research, accurate

22    that Destan Rukiqi --

23       A.   Rukiqi.

24       Q.   Thank you.  "A lawyer, member of the board of the CDHRF, was

25    sentenced to 60 days of imprisonment and sent to serve his prison term.

Page 10277

 1    As Rukiqi was not allowed to examine the files on the case of his client,

 2    he accused Danica Marinkovic, a judge, the role of playing policeman."

 3            Are you aware of this incident?

 4       A.   I am aware.  I think I can recollect there was this dispute.  I'm

 5    not aware that he was sent 16 days in prison.  But I know that there was a

 6    dispute.  And I'm sorry to say I was not aware of that.  Or maybe I was

 7    then, but I can't remember now.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Guy-Smith, if possible, we'd like to finish with

 9    this witness today --

10            MR. GUY-SMITH:  And as a matter of fact --

11            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Since there are ten minutes left.  I'd invite

12    you to wrap up.

13            MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'll make it ...

14       Q.   And as -- as a matter of fact, what occurred with Mr. Rukiqi, if

15    we could look at 2D001180, report number 427?

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Needs a number, Mr. Guy-Smith, I take it?

17            MR. GUY-SMITH:  2D001180.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Registrar.

19            THE REGISTRAR:  That will be marked for identification as D202,

20    Your Honours.

21            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Registrar.

22            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Page 6, under the line of "Prishtina."

23            "On being severely tortured in the county gaol in Prishtina,

24    Destan Rukiqi, a lawyer and member of the board of the CDHRF in Prishtina,

25    was taken to hospital.  His health condition is qualified as very grave."

Page 10278

 1            Were you -- were you aware of that?

 2       A.   I was -- no, no, I was not aware that he was really in the

 3    hospital.  I was aware that there was a dispute and there was some kind of

 4    process.

 5       Q.   You had mentioned earlier that there was some difficulties, I

 6    believe, with individuals having access to their families and their

 7    lawyers --

 8       A.   Yeah.

 9       Q.   -- once arrested.

10       A.   That's true.

11       Q.   If we could take a look at 2D001209 --

12            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Guy-Smith.

13            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Report number 429.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Guy-Smith, I earlier said that the Chamber did

15    not feel that it's greatly assisted by the line of questioning.

16            MR. GUY-SMITH:  I'm sorry.  Excuse me, Your Honour.

17            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

18            MR. GUY-SMITH:  I've got French and English.  I'm with now.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  That we felt that we're not greatly assisted by your

20    line of questioning.  Then I invited you to wrap up and said that we would

21    have ten minutes left.

22            Would you -- I mean, you are now asking for another document, to

23    find out whether quite a lot of things -- where the witness was asked

24    whether she's aware of it - sometimes she is, sometimes she is not - a lot

25    of personal knowledge seems not to be there.  That's --

Page 10279

 1            You're not to be blamed for it, Witness 28.

 2            THE WITNESS:  It's impossible to remember all --

 3            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Guy-Smith, would you please finish your

 4    cross-examination within the next two minutes.

 5            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Yes.

 6       Q.   In terms of the information that you were receiving on a daily

 7    basis from this organisation, in summary would it be fair to say that you

 8    were receiving information concerning the death of Albanian citizens, the

 9    attacks on villages, the abrogation of a variety of legal rights from the

10    period commencing in March through and including September?

11       A.   Yes.  We have been.  These reports were exactly pointing to that.

12       Q.   And these were reports that you relied upon in terms of making a

13    determination of where to focus your efforts concerning human rights

14    abuses.

15       A.   One of the sources that we --

16       Q.   That -- I understand, one of the sources, among others.

17       A.   Yep.

18       Q.   Thank you.

19            MR. GUY-SMITH:  With regard to one issue, Your Honour, I can ask

20    her to identify the remaining reports.  I believe that of all the reports,

21    she might be in a position to identify the remaining reports, at which

22    they can receive MFI numbers and at a later point in time, because of the

23    shortness of time that exists, and then we can deal with the issue of

24    their admission at a later point in time.  However you choose to deal with

25    that.

Page 10280

 1            JUDGE ORIE:  Well, is there any -- what then exactly she would

 2    have to identify?  This being reports?  I think you just took her to these

 3    reports and asked the questions about it without specifically --

 4            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Well, she had earlier indicated that she had

 5    received the information --

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.

 7            MR. GUY-SMITH:  She had received the information on a daily basis

 8    and on a weekly basis and recognised these reports.

 9            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Well, Mr. Re, would there be any dispute about

10    similar reports but then with other numbers and other information as being

11    within the knowledge of the witness when she worked at that time?

12            MR. RE:  I -- I've got no idea.  I've -- I have not asked the

13    witness about all these individual reports.

14            JUDGE ORIE:  No.

15            MR. RE:  Maybe yes, maybe no.

16            JUDGE ORIE:  Did you rely on these reports during whole of your

17    time you were working in -- in Kosovo?

18            THE WITNESS:  I didn't rely.  I was using that as a source.

19            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes, you were using as a source for focusing your

20    attention.

21            THE WITNESS:  Yes.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  And that's -- okay.  Then ...

23                          [Trial Chamber confers]

24            JUDGE ORIE:  We'll later discuss, Mr. Guy-Smith, whether it --

25    these reports do assist, but one thing is for clear, that these kind of

Page 10281

 1    reports were used by the witness to focus her attention on certain

 2    matters.

 3            Mr. Harvey --

 4            That will not be -- that will not be the issue in future.

 5            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Now but --

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  There might be other issues.

 7            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Right, there might be other issues.  But I take it

 8    for the time being we'll get MFI numbers for the remainder of them so

 9    there's no question about which reports exist.

10            JUDGE ORIE:  Would you then please inform Mr. Re as soon as

11    possible which -- what reports altogether.

12            MR. GUY-SMITH:  Absolutely.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Okay.  We'll see --

14            MR. GUY-SMITH:  And with that I am -- with that, I am done.

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

16            Mr. Harvey.

17            MR. HARVEY:  There is one of those reports for which I would like

18    an MFI number, and that 2D001215, report number 428.  While that's being

19    brought up --

20                          Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:

21       Q.   Good afternoon, Witness 28.

22            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Mr. Registrar, that would be?

23            THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, that will be D203.

24            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  And Witness 28, this gives me an opportunity to

25    tell you that Mr. Harvey is counsel for Mr. Brahimaj.

Page 10282

 1            Please proceed.

 2            MR. HARVEY:  That's just what I was about to tell you, Witness.

 3       Q.   And if we could scroll down towards the bottom of that page,

 4    please.  Thank you.  A little bit further up.  And a little further still.

 5    Lovely.  Thank you very much.

 6            This document, again, do you recall the -- what is described at

 7    the top of the document as the widespread repression and harassment

 8    perpetrated by the Serbian police and other authorities in Kosovo from

 9    August 2nd until August 6th, 1998?

10       A.   I don't -- I don't remember that being limited from 2nd to 6th.

11       Q.   I'm -- I'm sure.

12       A.   I think that middle July there was attempt of Serbian forces to

13    suppress KLA existence in different villages.  By then I think more than

14    40 per cent of territory was already controlled by KLA, as far as I can

15    understand in the villages.

16            So really what was happening, they would start pushing and

17    bombarding the village by village.  Refugees fleeing to the next -- the

18    next municipality till we reached the point of real catastrophic

19    situations.  But I don't remember it being from between -- between 2nd to

20    6th.  Maybe just for this municipality that was that situation ongoing.

21       Q.   Thank you for that.  I wanted just to focus on the period covered

22    by this report.  And we see at the -- towards the bottom of the page here,

23    it says:

24            "On July 4th to 5th," -- and I think you can probably agree with

25    me that this must be a typographical error in the report.  They were in

Page 10283

 1    fact speaking of the -- the August period here.

 2       A.   Mm-hm.

 3       Q.   So that should read "August 4th to 5th."

 4       A.   Mm-hm.

 5       Q.   And it lists a number of people who were killed in Jabllanice e

 6    Dushkajes, near Decan.

 7            I don't know whether any of these names are familiar to you, but

 8    one of the factors that one does notice looking at this aspect of the

 9    report is the extreme age of the victims.

10            I don't know if you have any knowledge at all of my client,

11    Lahi Brahimaj.  Do you?

12       A.   No.

13       Q.   So -- so you wouldn't be able to help on whether the Aze Ibrahimaj

14    and the Zize Zekaj who are mentioned here are respectively his mother and

15    grandmother [Realtime transcript read in error "brother"]?

16       A.   No, I do not.

17       Q.   In relation then to Jabllanice which you do mention in paragraph

18    28 -- and I'm done with this document for now, thank you.

19            In relation to paragraph 28 of your -- your 92 ter statement, you

20    refer to a conversation that you had with an American TV crew.

21       A.   Yes.

22       Q.   And their investigations in Jabllanice where they found the local

23    KLA commander who had a long white beard.

24       A.   Yes.

25       Q.   I think it's fairly evident that my client, try as he might, would

Page 10284

 1    have difficulty growing a long white beard.  I'm not asking you to respond

 2    to that observation.

 3       A.   But I might also -- do you mind if I interrupt something about

 4    Jablanica?

 5       Q.   Well, may I -- may I finish my question first and then by all

 6    means add any comment that seems to you to be helpful.

 7            I wanted to ask you, since this description in fact fits that of a

 8    gentleman known as Sadri Zeneli, did you ever come-- become aware of Sadri

 9    Zeneli as being the local commander in Jabllanice?

10       A.   No, I didn't.

11       Q.   Now, by all means if you wish to add anything in relation to

12    Jabllanice.

13       A.   Maybe it's interesting -- is it open session?  Yeah?   Yeah?

14            Yeah, maybe it's interesting to --

15            JUDGE ORIE:  Is this to say that you would like to remain in open

16    session or that you would rather return --

17            THE WITNESS:  Yeah, I think it should remain, yeah.

18            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  Please proceed.

19            THE WITNESS:  It would be interesting to know that me and the

20    researcher that was mentioned earlier had been in May that year

21    interviewing two people, a very old couple, Serbs, but who -- very

22    difficulty talk Serbian.  They were from Jablanica and already completely

23    assimilated.  And they told us that in January 1998 they've been ordered

24    to leave Jablanica by unknown people they'd never seen before.  They'd

25    never had children and never were interested to actually leave that place.

Page 10285

 1    Their neighbours tried to protect them for -- for months.  And then in the

 2    end the neighbours decided that they cannot protect them, so they put then

 3    flour and sugar on the truck and sent them.

 4            So we found them in May in Pec in the refugee centre.  But that's

 5    the first time that I heard aside of this TV crew testimony about

 6    Jablanica and digging the trenches and seeing unknown faces in January

 7    1998.

 8            JUDGE ORIE:  Mr. Harvey.

 9            Do you have any further questions?

10            MR. HARVEY:  I have no further questions.  I would just like to

11    note a correction at page 110, line 24.  The word should read

12    "grandmother," not brother.  But thank you very much.

13            JUDGE ORIE:  Thank you, Mr. Harvey.

14            Mr. Re, is there any need -- also looking at the clock, so if

15    there's -- we have to decide whether we would ask the witness to come back

16    tomorrow morning or whether we can finish.  But then we can't ask the

17    interpreters and technicians and transcribers to spend more than two or

18    three minutes.

19            MR. RE:  It will probably take me about ten minutes.

20            JUDGE ORIE:  Yes.  That's too much for today.

21            Unfortunately, then we'll have to adjourn until tomorrow.

22            I am -- I would have preferred not to ask you to come back

23    tomorrow, but unfortunately we have not finished yet.  It will not take

24    much time.  I don't know -- it will be in the morning.  So I don't know

25    whether any travel arrangements have been made already.

Page 10286

 1            But I again would like to instruct you that you should not speak

 2    with anyone about the testimony either given already or still to be given.

 3    We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this -- not in this

 4    same courtroom.

 5                          [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 6            JUDGE ORIE:  In Courtroom II.  And it will not take long tomorrow

 7    morning.

 8            We stand adjourned until tomorrow, the 6th of November, 9.00,

 9    Courtroom II.

10                          --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,

11                          to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day of

12                          November, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.