1 Monday, 5 November 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.25 p.m.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon to
8 everyone in the courtroom. This is case number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor
9 versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Good afternoon, Witness 28. I'd like to remind you that you're
12 still bound by the solemn declaration you've given at the beginning of
13 your testimony this last Friday. I further would like to remind the
14 parties that if any question is put to the witness which might result in
15 an answer that could reveal her identity, that we should go into private
16 session well in time.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: And finally, I would like to remind the parties that
19 microphones should be switched off when the witness answers questions.
20 Mr. Re, please proceed.
21 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/28 [Resumed]
22 Examination by Mr. Re: [Continued]
23 MR. RE: Thank you.
24 Q. Good afternoon, Witness 28.
25 Can I just announce we do have a redacted version of the statement
1 in e-court, and I understand it's Exhibit P1211 --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters apologies. We do not hear
3 Mr. Re.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, there seems to be a technical problem.
5 Mr. Re, perhaps the other microphone is better.
6 MR. RE: Can I -- can you hear me now?
7 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. Thank you very much.
8 MR. RE:
9 Q. On Thursday afternoon, I was asking you some questions, Witness
10 28, about some portions of your statement. I just want to take you to
11 paragraph 29 of your statement - and I understand you have a copy in front
12 of you - which reads: "A MUP officer in Decani, whose name I can no
13 longer recall, told me that around the same time" -- that was in early
14 March 1998 or so -- "the bridge in Jablanica was destroyed, most likely by
15 the KLA, to prevent the MUP from entering Jablanica and patrolling the
17 My question is this - and I appreciate it's been a long time, and
18 to an extent you're relying upon your memory - can you provide the Trial
19 Chamber with any further -- any more details about the bridge or what you
20 were told about its destruction around that time.
21 A. Not really too much more than I already said. Just circumstances
22 of that discussion I can maybe remember. That was the time when policeman
23 Prascevic was killed. That was the beginning of the March. I travelled
24 to Decani. I talked to his wife. I think related to that murder was also
25 Valeta Hirej [phoen] case and [indiscernible]. And then I visited also
1 the police station in Decani to talk what is happening and what's behind
2 that. And that was that discussion which was just that.
3 Q. If you could turn, please, to paragraphs 34 and 35. And perhaps
4 that can be displayed in Sanction, sufficiently redacted.
5 I want to ask you about what's in paragraph 34, but referable back
6 to paragraph -- sorry, 35 but referable back to -- referable back to 34,
7 where you said that: "This was the last time that (redacted) were
8 allowed access to KLA-controlled territories in Decani municipality. One
9 of our researchers told me in April 1998, while heading to Glodjane the
10 researcher was stopped at a KLA check-point in Pozar and that
11 Daut Haradinaj himself refused to allow the researcher to proceed."
12 Are you able to give the Trial Chamber any more information about
13 that? And that is contained in that passage in your statement?
14 A. Not really. Again, just the context of these events. The last
15 ten days of April there was a clash between KLA and police forces.
16 Refugees -- Albanian refugees were fleeing toward Djakovica from Erec, if
17 I remember well, while Serbian refugees were, like, heading -- the rest
18 would stay there, heading towards youth hotels behind Decani monastery,
19 and we all tried as a team to basically interview refugees and find out
20 what's happening. And that was the moment when one of the researchers
21 went -- tried to see what's happening with Albanian refugees and enter the
22 check-point in Pozar and was refused to enter further.
23 Q. Now, in that passage in your statement, you referred to access to
24 KLA-controlled territories in Decani municipality. Which areas were then,
25 as far as you could see, KLA-controlled?
1 A. I had some information that KLA controlled Babaloc, Shaptej,
2 Gramocelj, Dubrava, while Serbian police forces being in a settlement of
3 Babaloc for a while and also in Agro-Combinat behind for a while. In that
4 period of time.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Could I ask one thing to clarify. You make a
6 distinction between Babaloc and Babaloc -- the settlement of Babaloc. By
7 "the settlement of Babaloc," you mean the newly built, I would say,
8 street -- streets, et cetera, and some 50 or 80 newly built houses for
9 refugees. Is that --
10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
12 MR. EMMERSON: Just one matter, if I might. When the witness
13 indicates at page 4, line 7 "that period of time," I wonder if we might
14 clarify whether she's referring to the period of time she's describing in
15 paragraphs 34 and 35 of her witness statement or some other period of
17 THE WITNESS: I'm referring to the period from Easter, which was
18 19th of April, to 30th -- 30th of April, probably. After that, I'm not
19 aware, because I was not there any more.
20 MR. RE:
21 Q. And what was the source of your information about the KLA
22 controlling the areas you've just mentioned?
23 A. I have difficulties remembering that now, but I think it was in
24 Djakovica the committee for protection of human rights, because we usually
25 relied on them to go and get the basic facts what's happening with the --
1 on the ground.
2 Q. In Spotlight Report 26, which is Exhibit P6 - and you have a copy
3 there in front of you - I think it's at page 17, the report refers to --
4 this is 00649633, ERN. Under the heading at 9: "Glodjane controlled by
5 liberation army of Kosovo," it says:
6 "Following the 24th of March clash, the Liberation Army of Kosovo
7 (LAK) set up check-points at the entrance and exit of Glodjane and barred
8 news reporters from the village."
9 Is that passage in that report to which you contributed and your
10 incident reports were used to compile referable to the part in paragraph
11 35 where you say that one of your researchers was stopped from entering
12 Glodjane in April 1998? Is there a connection between the two, the
13 barring of (redacted) and the barring of news reporters from
15 A. I would not connect these two -- two facts. I had many connection
16 with the media, and also media reported a lot about different attempts
17 of -- to enter that space. So I am not sure this connects at all to each
19 Q. Can you please turn to page -- sorry, paragraph 40 of your
20 statement in relation to the Babaloc refugee settlement. And you
21 mentioned Babaloc a moment ago.
22 And if paragraph 40 could just be displayed in Sanction there.
23 "In April 1998, I interviewed two refugees from a settlement."
24 And you've got their names. "They told me that on the evening of the 18th
25 of April 1998, the KLA had attacked the house of Zarko Zlaticanin. The
1 house was hit but nobody was hurt. The following day many of the refugees
2 left for Podgorica."
3 What did they tell you about the attack on the night of 18th of
4 April, 1998? Describe what they told you about the attack.
5 A. It's quite difficult to recollect everything what they said. I
6 remember me being with a little bit -- having mistrusts towards them,
7 because they insisted there was no police force there, they were just
8 coming to visit them. And I just arrived from Albanian villages in, I
9 think, Skivije, where Albanian refugees were insisting the police forces
10 were there. So one of the reasons I went there was actually to check what
11 is happening. But they said that on 18th, so in the eve of the Easter,
12 shooting came from the village of Babaloc, which -- because that -- if I
13 understand and as I could remember, there is some forest and split between
14 Albanian village of Babaloc and the settlement of Babaloc.
15 They said also that these attacks were also happening in 1997 but
16 not so frequent. 18th started seriously shooting from Suka e Baballoq,
17 they said, and that Albanians were shouting, "Happy Easter." That
18 shooting continued on 19th and that 19th in the afternoon they -- they
19 were kind of doing nothing, hiding. They've been escorted to Decani youth
20 hostel. And then returned back, I think, on 20th, which told me - maybe I
21 was wrong to conclude - that in the meantime Serbian police forces retook
22 the position, because Albanian refugees were talking about Suka e Babaloc
23 and Suka Crmljanska is the position of the Serbian forces.
24 MR. EMMERSON: Excuse me. I apologise for interrupting again.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
1 MR. EMMERSON: But I wonder if that passage, which I slightly lost
2 the sense of, could -- could be clarified.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 28, I think Mr. Emmerson did not exactly
4 understand what you meant, I take it especially from where you said that
5 you may have drawn wrong conclusions. Could you please --
6 THE WITNESS: No, I -- it's just my conclusion because of the
7 dates that all these events were happening. Because I -- I am in the same
8 time also in Albanian villages with Albanian refugees, and they are saying
9 that on 20th basically they had to leave and ran away from, I think, Erec,
10 because Serbian police forces start controlling Suka e Babaloc and Suka
11 Crmljanska and start shooting at them.
12 The same time the Serbian refugees in the settlement of Babaloc
13 saying that on 18th and 19th was actually attacked by KLA on them. So my
14 conclusion was that we had a conflict, that there were refugees fleeing in
15 different directions to avoid it.
16 I don't know if that's clear enough.
17 JUDGE ORIE: That brings me to another question. Earlier you
18 testified that -- where you said "the last ten days of April there was a
19 clash between KLA and police forces, refugees, Albanian refugees were
20 fleeing towards Djakovica."
21 THE WITNESS: Mm-hm.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And if you remember it well, Serbian refugees were
23 heading, I think, towards the youth hostel behind Decani.
24 What I'd like to ask you is: On -- on the basis of the
25 information received and on the basis of you -- what you observed
1 yourself, was it that Serbs were fleeing when KLA attacks took place? Was
2 it that Albanians were fleeing when Serbian attacks took place? Or was it
3 that there was armed conflict where it was not easy to identify who was
4 attacking and who was defending but just exchange of fire, violence, where
5 the whole of the population, irrespective of who was shooting or who was
6 attacking, just got out of their villages in order to protect themselves?
7 Or was it -- I hope you understand my question.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I understand.
9 JUDGE ORIE: But it was a specific response, fleeing, from a
10 specific attack, or whether it was widespread violence, including several
11 forces, where -- whether you were Serbian or whether you were Albanian
12 you'd leave the territory because it would become too dangerous for all of
14 THE WITNESS: I didn't have an impression that was kind of
15 uncontrolled and wide and unknown attackers behind, especially with the
16 Babaloc settlement refugees, because they clearly pointed toward Babaloc
17 village, Albanian village, saying that they are shooting them and they are
18 pulling out and with the escort of police hardly could reach youth hostel
20 The same thing happened with the Albanian refugees. They were
21 saying that Serbian police is actually in certain positions shelling the
22 villages and because of that they were running.
23 That's what I can recollect now.
24 JUDGE ORIE: And it's not -- you didn't gain the impression that
25 where people were fleeing for violence, that they were perhaps
1 misinterpreting the situation, blaming the violence necessarily to what
2 were their natural opponents, that is, Albanians for the Serbs and Serbs
3 for the Albanians.
4 THE WITNESS: What I had impression is that they both, of course,
5 insisted they've been unarmed. So Serbs are saying that they -- they
6 haven't been armed and they just without any weapons were sitting there in
7 the settlement, which actually Albanians said differently. And also
8 Albanian refugees were insisting that men stayed behind and that they are
9 all civilians guarding their homes.
10 But my feeling was at that point that it was already established
11 some kind of -- two -- two different military groups, one against the
12 other, one very weak, like KLA, not very -- probably well-armed but kind
13 of ready to fight and more powerful Serbian police forces that basically
14 wanted to keep that road open between Decani and Djakovica. I think
15 everything was at these ten days about the road between Decani and
17 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
18 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
19 MR. RE:
20 Q. Let's go to the section in your statement from paragraph 44 down:
21 "Serb families living in Dukagjini area in early 1998."
22 If that could be displayed in Sanction, please, the rest of that
24 Now, in the middle of the first paragraph - this is 44 - you say:
25 "We received information that some Serb civilians in Albanian villages had
1 been kidnapped by the KLA and were missing."
2 You then go down -- two sentences down to say: "(redacted) decided
3 to investigate the accuracy of the claims, and I arrived in Decani in the
4 last week of April 1998 to investigate." Next paragraph: "In Decani, I
5 counted 34 Serb families who had left their villages in the Dukagjini area
6 and were living in Decani as refugees."
7 I want to concentrate on that. Firstly, how did you calculate the
8 figure of 34 families in that sentence and 123 in the next sentence?
9 A. Well, 123, I have to say, I really don't know the source. I knew
10 that I had that in my notebook, 123 numbers stays in my head. I can't
11 recollect what is the source for that number.
12 For these 34 families I did count them and I will tell you how.
13 First maybe it's worth mentioning that these families were not unknown to
14 us. We'd been receiving reports from early March that those -- some of
15 those families were attacked, some were already leaving, and our
16 researcher, who still could go in March, Serbian researcher, was
17 interviewing these families. So I knew -- I was familiar with those
19 When I arrived there, what I usually did in that time was I draw
20 the map. These villages were not totally known to me, and I draw the map
21 with the villages and I concentrated on the right side of the road looking
22 from Djakovica to Decani; meaning that would be east -- yeah, east -- east
23 side of the road. And then I didn't, of course, calculate every single
24 person there. I wish I could. But what I did, I put down the numbers of
25 the houses, families. Serbs in those villages were similarly organised as
1 families in Albanian families, meaning, say, three families of Popovic,
2 five families -- five houses -- five houses of Stojanovic, three houses
4 So that's the -- the way how I did it. And I paid attention
5 specifically, because media in Serbia, Russian media in Serbia were, I
6 thought, exaggerating the numbers and talking about hundreds of families
7 being expelled. And maybe it's interesting to mention here that five
8 families from Gramocelj, Albanian families from Gramocelj, I was told - I
9 didn't see them - but I was told were there who didn't want to take the
10 arms. And that's how I then later -- out of this, actually, listing the
11 families created a lot of confusion later because some names and the
12 families were mysteriously later not being able to track. We prepared
13 that report later, so I tried to find some of them. And some of these
14 missing had different surnames.
15 For example, these two old ladies, one handicapped, Serbs there in
16 Decani told me that they are Vujorad Dara [phoen], Ante Vujosevic, but in
17 reality later I realised that one was married and was Kovac, or something
18 like that. But I had them as Vujosevic in my list.
19 Am I actually talking too much answering the questions that --
20 JUDGE ORIE: No. No, you're trying to clearly explain what Mr. Re
21 asks you. And if you would enter any area where Mr. Re thinks that we
22 should focus on other areas, he'll certainly then interrupt you. And --
23 and if we have the same feeling, we'll do the same.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
25 MR. RE:
1 Q. Can I just take you back to your last answer. And you said that
2 "we were -- we'd been receiving reports from early March that some of
3 those families were attacked, some were already leaving."
4 What were the reports you'd been receiving? What were the nature
5 of the attacks? What had you been told about the attacks on these
6 families? That is, who had been attacking them? In what manner? And
7 what was the result of these attacks?
8 A. I can't remember all family names that we then interviewed,
9 especially that was done by other researchers, so I can't -- and I don't
10 have an insight into regional statements there that stated "(redacted)
11 (redacted)." I remember some names and some villages that they came from.
12 And I know that it was the beginning of the March.
13 Q. Okay. Can you tell the Trial Chamber the names and the villages
14 you can remember and what you were told about the nature of the attacks.
15 A. So I -- I remember from some family Fatic from Crmljane that
16 was -- bomb was thrown into their yard. A similar thing was in Culafic.
17 I think it was Ratis. That's what I'm not sure. There was the Bozanic
18 family, a Montenegrin family in Rznic, and for them I know that I tried to
19 track them later but -- and I heard that there their son lives in Belgrade
20 and they moved immediately after clash in Glodjane there.
21 Was that -- one more? I can't remember any more. I might
22 actually remember later that last name of that fourth family.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Apart from the name, do you remember the -- the place
24 and what happened to them?
25 THE WITNESS: There was no one hurt, as far as I remember. We
1 just got -- we seen reports in Serbian media that these Serbian houses
2 were attacked. So our researcher went there, interviewed them, and got a
3 different material about bombs being there. Mostly bombs, I remember,
4 being thrown in their yards.
5 MR. RE:
6 Q. What was the information about who had put the bombs in their
8 A. I can't say that really. I can't remember. To me, because I
9 followed the development KLA from the before and from Dreznica, was
10 quite -- I had already some information about KLA being there, so that was
11 logical. But I can't say it was KLA, because I don't see these interviews
12 any more.
13 But what I remember now is curfew that existed beginning of 1998,
14 and I remember specific interview that was made by one researcher --
15 researcher, Serbian, with a family that was stopped explicitly by KLA.
16 And a car was shot. Nobody was hurt. And I think they even have that
17 interview somewhere with me.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Do you remember -- where you said "beginning of
19 1998," could you be more specific as far as month is concerned?
20 THE WITNESS: Yes. I think that it was actually some kind of
21 saint. The end of December. And they were traveling to monastery. Which
22 monastery, I don't know any more. And they were stopped on that road and
23 they'd been interviewed by the Serbian researcher and explained that they
24 didn't know for curfew but all other Serbs knew, and that was the case, I
25 remember. I mean, I might find actually that interview, if -- if it is
2 MR. RE:
3 Q. Do you mean that -- the end of December 1997?
4 A. 1997, yes.
5 Q. All right. And you referred to the curfew. What was the curfew?
6 A. The curfew was related to some -- that KLA was patrolling and then
7 they couldn't go out from the houses. And then there was one more family,
8 I think, but that was not in that -- that was not in Decani. It was in
9 Klina. That they'd been saying -- Donji Petrovic [phoen] in Klina.
10 They'd been saying that they took the weapons and they were guarding their
11 house -- Serbian house, fearing of the KLA attacks.
12 Q. All right.
13 A. It was March.
14 Q. Where was this incident of the shooting of the car?
15 A. Josanica. I think something like Josanica. Turici or something
16 like that.
17 Q. Where is that?
18 A. Should be further near Klina. Norther than -- north from
20 Q. Okay. And --
21 A. The border maybe with the -- with the Drenica region.
22 Q. All right. And the curfew. Were you saying the KLA imposed the
23 curfew or someone else imposed the curfew?
24 A. The KLA imposed the curfew. That was in that interview.
25 Q. All right. Now, these abductions of ethnic -- of ethnic Serbs are
1 referred to in the Human Rights Watch report "Violations of the rules --
2 humanitarian law violations in Kosovo." That's 65 ter Exhibit number 999.
3 If you turn to pages 78 and 79, where at the footnote its sources
4 for some of the information about the abductions of ethnic Serbs is the --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Is this already in evidence, Mr. Re?
6 MR. RE: No. But I'm going to ask for it to be -- to be tendered.
7 JUDGE ORIE: And I see it's quite a -- a long report. Do you need
8 everything of it?
9 MR. RE: Well, yes. It's a -- it's a report which is of the
10 period from -- all through 1998 and is a balance report referring to what
11 was happening on both sides.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I may, in the event that the Prosecution is
13 going to be seeking to tender this particular exhibit, we're going to be
14 objecting to it based on the ruling in the Milutinovic case concerning
15 these kinds of documents. And we're happy to make further written
16 submissions about it at a later point in time, but I just want to set a
17 marker at this time with regard to this exhibit.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
19 Mr. Re, then reports summarising the whole of the conflict are at
20 least problematic, so I would encourage you to -- first of all, to focus
21 on those portions you would specifically like to deal with.
22 MR. RE: It's -- it's directly relevant to the incidents which are
23 in the indictment. It refers to a number of the people who were listed in
24 the indictment. That's the preliminary step I'm taking with this witness.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. RE:
2 Q. Now, Witness 28, I just want you to --
3 JUDGE ORIE: I don't know whether it's relevance that's at the
4 basis of your --
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, there are going to be -- there are going to
6 be actually a series of objections with regard to this particular kind of
7 evidence. Perhaps what would be the most prudent thing would be to file a
8 written submission. But I -- and ask at this point for the Chamber to
9 withhold any ruling with regard to the admission of this particular
11 I just wanted to alert the Chamber to the fact that we would be
12 following the reasoning in the decision of the 1st of September, 2006
13 concerning evidence tendered through Sandra Mitchell and
14 Frederick Abrahams.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Which I believe also has applicable --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Re, you are aware that this is, I would
18 say, that this is a repeating issue to what extent summarising evidence by
19 others could be admitted, because I take it that you want to have it
20 admitted since -- to establish the content of the report as being the
22 MR. RE: Yes. And also for the conclusion which Human Rights
23 Watch came to in relation to when the conflict occurred and the intensity
24 and level of it based upon their experiences on the ground, and that's at
25 pages 91 to 93. And I've referred to that in -- but could -- would it be
1 possible just to have it marked for identification now and have this
2 debate at a later point?
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. At the same time, of course, once the witness
4 has concluded testimony, then of course if we have not or only very
5 partially admit this into evidence, then of course you're facing the
6 problem that where you thought that quite a lot of material would be in
7 evidence, that it might not be.
8 MR. RE: No, that's not what where I'm coming.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
10 MR. RE: All I want to do is --
11 JUDGE ORIE: We'll MFI it for --
12 MR. RE: I just want her to identify the certain passages as
13 linking back.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. RE: That's all I want to take up with this witness.
16 MR. EMMERSON: I don't know whether the Trial Chamber has yet seen
17 the witness statement of -- I'm sure there's no application for protective
18 measures, but if I get it wrong -- no, I see there isn't -- of
19 Peter Bouckaert of Human Rights Watch.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Fred Abrahams.
21 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, Fred Abrahams of Human Rights Watch who
22 produces this report as well or refers to this report as well.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think we don't have -- we haven't seen it. Which
24 doesn't mean that we are not aware of it coming in our direction.
25 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. We know that -- just apropos the point Mr. Re
1 makes moment ago, there are very considerable passages of that statement
2 which objection is going to be taken, including and perhaps in particular
3 the conclusion that Mr. Re adverts to is the appropriate date for the
4 start of an armed conflict.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, at least this report, Human Rights Watch
6 report, receives an MFI number.
7 And that would be, Mr. Registrar?
8 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for
9 identification as P1212.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
12 MR. RE:
13 Q. All I want to do you, Witness 28, is for you to identify some
14 sections in this report, Human Rights Watch report, which are referable to
15 the work you and (redacted) did in Kosovo in 1998. And the first one is at
16 pages 78 to 79, which refers to the abduction of ethnic Serbs. And
17 paragraph -- and footnote 134 and 138 actually refer -- actually footnote
18 to (redacted) reports. I just want you to confirm that that is -- that is in
19 fact the case. And then I want to take you to another passage in it.
20 A. Okay. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 Now, if you could just turn to the specific incidents at paragraph
23 49 -- sorry, 48, where you say you interviewed some of the refugees in
24 Decan; then paragraph 49.
25 If that could -- also could be displayed in Sanction, please.
1 A. I'm lost now.
2 Q. Paragraph 49, where you refer to an interview with Milovan and
3 Milka Vlahovic's daughter, Nada Vlahovic.
4 I'm sorry?
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Re.
7 MR. RE:
8 Q. And thereafter on the page in paragraph 51, where you refer to
9 "The refugees telling me that the only Serbs remaining in Dasinovac were
10 Slobodan Milosevic, Milica Radunovic, Milos Radunovic, and the Markovic
12 Now, firstly I just want you to refer to you to page 83 of MFI
13 P1212, which is the Human Rights Watch report. And the footnote of 149
14 refers to (redacted) report, which is in Exhibit P6 -- or P5, I'm sorry.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And is it fair to say the Human Rights Watch report bases its
17 information on information which (redacted) --
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. -- obtained?
20 A. Mm-hm.
21 Q. And if you could just turn over to the next page, which is page 84
22 of the Human Rights Watch report, where it says:
23 "According to the (redacted) and newspaper Blic,
24 Gurum Bejta [phoen] and Agron Berisa, both Roma, and Ivan Zaric, an ethnic
25 Serb, left Dolac on May 20th for the villages of Grabovica. As of August
1 1999 their whereabouts were unknown." Again -- that's footnote 151 -- is
2 that also information the Human Rights Watch is basing upon that newspaper
3 report and the information which your research has gathered on the ground
4 in Kosovo at the time.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 Now, I want to now take you to -- sorry, paragraph 50. In the
8 middle of it it says: "Nada Vlahovic told me that Serbs -- that when the
9 Serbs were leaving, the Albanian families also left the village. Only the
10 Albanian men stayed behind. My experience was that this was a typical and
11 normal occurrence in villages where the KLA appeared in public. The
12 Albanian women and children would leave the village as well fearing
13 clashes between the KLA, MUP, or VJ."
14 Now, can you just briefly tell the Trial Chamber what your
15 experience was of that and how you were able to come to that conclusion.
16 A. My experience was that Serbian police forces were absolutely
17 without control once getting into the clashes or entering the villages
18 where they suspected of being attacked by KLA, which then meant that
19 Albanian villagers tried to save the children and the women and send them
20 further as possible so that they cannot -- save their lives. And that was
21 one vicious circle, I would say, which I don't know who should be blamed
22 really on the end of the day, because Serbian police also shouldn't, I
23 think, exaggerate the level of the attacks and make -- creating new waves
24 of the refugees, basically.
25 At a certain point in the summer it became really chaos. But yes,
1 that's true that mostly Serbs would tell -- tell us, I think Nada
2 Vlahovic, but also that Ljubica Stojanovic, that, for example, before
3 Glodjane clashes on 24th of March, they noticed that some Albanian
4 families left the village. And sometimes also Albanian women said that
5 their men stayed behind to look for the house.
6 So it's fear, fear that clashes would occur and somebody would get
8 Q. If I could take you now to paragraph 53. If that could also be
9 displayed in Sanction, where you say:
10 "Some Serb refugees staying in the youth hostel in Decani told me
11 that a Serb from Prilep, Branko Stamatovic disappeared on the 25th of
12 April, 1998."
13 Do you have any further information on that? If not, I'll move
15 A. I think that we had in one report that, I'm not sure if I can
16 remember, there was one Albanian source telling us that Branko was seen
17 entering with the Serbian police somebody's house or something like that,
18 but I'm not sure that this man is alive any more.
19 Q. If you could turn to the next paragraph, 54, under the heading
20 "Conditions along the main roads in mid-1998," where you say:
21 "My observations from traveling in the -- frequently in the
22 Dukagjini area from March 1999" -- I'm sorry, 1998 -- I'll say it again.
23 "March 1998 onwards was of an escalation of the conflict."
24 Would you describe to the Trial Chamber this escalation of the
25 conflict you observed from March 1998 -- 1998 onwards.
1 A. Well, from March I don't remember seeing any police check-points
2 in such a big numbers. Roads were open. Buses still worked, although
3 some of them were stopped and some people kidnapped out of the buses.
4 That changed quite a lot. Again, I am talking about these ten
5 days of April, last April where buses stopped work. There were a lot of
6 check-points. Many Albanian refugees testified that they could see
7 convoys, police and military convoys on -- on the road, especially between
9 I also heard that behind the monastery arrived special Serbian
10 forces and from other side Albanian refugees were calling that part Podi i
11 Geshtenjave, I think that's the part how it was called, where they settled
12 there. So there was a tension growing and more refugees coming.
13 Another point is there is a border where very often media were
14 reporting about Yugoslav Army stopping the convoys with the -- not convoys
15 but basically people -- arresting people with weapons, carrying through
16 the borders. And then I think that a lot of refugees from Voksh or --
17 what's called that? Another place. Was heading toward Djakovica again,
18 from the other side toward Djakovica. Fearing the clashes are already
19 maybe happening, the clashes. I can't remember that.
20 But yes, the roads were becoming the problem. The roads in April
21 quite a bit. In May actually almost very difficult to travel on that road
22 to Djakovica from Pristina.
23 Q. Okay. Now, what was it about the conflict you saw escalating?
24 That's what I'm specifically getting to.
25 A. I mean, I was not the -- a witness of the conflict. I could just
1 put together the bits and pieces of information I got, and I also was
2 worried where to send researchers, not to send a Serbian researcher in
3 KLA-controlled zone or not to sentence Albanian researchers over the
4 check-points of the Serbs, who were quite angry. And so I was monitoring
5 that process, and I -- I could see very nervous check-points, Serbian
6 policemen, behind the sandbags, struggling to keep the road open,
7 insisting that basically KLA is going to close the road.
8 Q. In paragraph 65, you refer to an incident on the 24th or 25th of
9 May when you were driving (redacted) jeep to Pec or Peja with your team to
10 abuse -- to investigate abuses in Serbian police custody. And at the
11 bottom of the paragraph, you said: "We heard that the KLA had also
12 kidnapped two police near Prilep on the Decani-Djakovica road."
13 I just want to cross-reference that. Is that -- if you could turn
14 to Spotlight Report number 27, which is part of P6.
15 If you could go to paragraph 2.24, which is at page K0078707. It
16 refers to the abduction of police officers Nikola Jovanovic and
17 Rade Popovic. Is that the same incident to which you're referring in your
19 A. Yes. It is but we didn't investigate that -- in the incident that
20 was taken, as I remember, from media. I just heard that there was
21 something else happening of the road, not just Ljubenic attack but also
22 something else just happened or happened day before. I can't remember any
23 more. And then I also heard there were related to that case that there
24 are some negotiations. If true, that these policemen to be released. But
25 it failed.
1 Q. If you could turn to paragraph 75, please. If that could also be
2 displayed in Sanction.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
4 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. Just in respect of the last line of the
5 last answer. I wonder if the witness could give the source for that,
6 please. The reference to negotiations.
7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I think it was daily -- daily newspaper,
8 Danas. But we have it here, I think, mentioned in this document that he
9 was referring to.
10 Can you help me to find that paragraph here? Can you help me?
11 This is about that Poparic -- Nikola Ivanic case. Poparic.
12 Mm-hm. Mm-hm. This may be -- oh, no.
13 JUDGE ORIE: I think it is --
14 THE WITNESS: It is there.
15 JUDGE ORIE: 224, it reads: "The paper further reported that
16 there had been contacts between the police authorities and the KLA."
17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.
18 JUDGE ORIE: -- "on exchanging captured police officers in return
19 for food supplies."
20 Is that what you were referring to?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And apart from what the papers reported, you have no
23 additional information --
24 THE WITNESS: No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- apart from this was reported.
1 THE WITNESS: No. Because this report was made partly based on
2 what we researched and partly on what local media reported. And we
3 stated -- quoted the sources.
4 MR. RE:
5 Q. If we could go to paragraph 75, which is displayed in Sanction
6 there. You refer to the Serbian media (redacted) documenting "increased KLA
7 attacks on MUP patrols on the Djakovica-Decani-Pec road (including the
8 kidnapping and killing of police and civilians).".
9 You then refer to your assessment saying:
10 "Based upon my field research, my assessment was that they in turn
11 provoked retaliation by the MUP. The MUP then retaliated by the
12 indiscriminate shelling and burning of Albanian villages."
13 Then you go down: "Resulting in an exodus of Albanian women and
14 children. Meanwhile Albanian male villagers were being mobilised. The
15 MUP retaliation in May 1998 seemed to be specifically targeted at places
16 like Decani and Ljubenic, but in summer spread across all of Kosovo. The
17 MUP needed control the towns and main roads."
18 What -- I just want you to elaborate on that, the MUP needed to
19 control the towns and the main roads. What was your information about the
20 control in the Dukagjini area in May 1998? ?
21 A. I mean, this is really now opinion. It is not based on any
22 special information. The fact -- pure fact that there was a road that was
23 dividing basically western side -- yeah, eastern side of -- of the road
24 with the villages by then controlled by the end of May by KLA, I think.
25 And then also the border where the -- the weapons was coming was quite
1 clearly the way that -- that was the intention, to have territory and open
2 the way for the weapons to come in. And the Serbs, just not only in case
3 of Decani but also in Orahovac or anywhere else, whenever somebody would
4 try to close the road or somebody would try to take the town under
5 control, they just didn't let it happen.
6 Nothing more I can say that. It was just my assessment.
7 Q. And I want to just take you back to an answer you gave before to
8 Judge Orie when he was asking you about people fleeing the violence in
9 March and April 1998.
10 A. Mm-hm.
11 Q. Were you able to determine from your interviews and your
12 observations in the field a pattern to what the Albanians or Serbs were
13 telling (redacted)?
14 A. You mean specifically for that region? Because we covered all
15 Kosovo. Are you asking for Decani?
16 Q. That region, yes, Decani, Dukagjini.
17 A. Well, Serbs actually had expressed pure belief that they're
18 targeted and they're -- they were told to leave the houses. Sometimes
19 then they feared that they would be targeted. There was a lot --
20 different reports about some foreign armies, as they would call, in Decani
21 area. So some of them actually were arrested and beaten, as I understand,
22 in KLA headquarter in Glodjane.
23 Albanians from other side were actually saying almost always the
24 same, "The Serbian forces are on this Suka e Babaloc and Suka Crmljanska,"
25 and they are showing them that's the reason why they are leaving. Both
1 sides insisted they are not armed, that we interviewed.
2 Q. Who was -- what was your information about who was targeting the
4 A. Well, if you ask the Serbs then, they would all have -- say just a
5 couple of expressions. They would say "Siptari", terrorists, "OVK,"
6 "UCK." These are the expressions that they've been using all the time.
7 However, I have to say that Serbian media were so much in
8 propaganda against the terrorists that we started actually worrying a
9 certain point, I think actually after March, that we don't actually see
10 how this is developing. If everything the Serbs says OVK -- or terrorists
11 did this. That's why we then tried to basically identify have they been
12 actually armed or they had weapons or they've been under uniform, in
13 uniforms, or just it's opinion that they are terrorists who are attacking
14 you, or rather, them.
15 Maybe it's important to say political element into this
16 terminology. I don't know if it's -- maybe important, maybe not. But
17 Serbs for a while didn't want to admit that they have actually military
18 conflict and wanted to have that perception that they are honest Albanians
19 and some terrorists and gangs roaming around.
20 I think for a while also LDK of Kosovo for, like, beginning of the
21 clashes -- beginning of the -- what I see as the war, also didn't want to
22 admit that KLA exists, so that was -- that's why Serbs mostly used
23 "terrorists," "terrorists," "terrorists," but also "OVK," "KLA," "UCK"
25 Q. Just going back to your observations and what you were able to
1 verify and determine based on interviews and what you saw on the roads,
2 was it more consistent with the existence of the KLA targeting the Serb
3 families or was it consistent with something else?
4 A. I -- I didn't understand this question.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
6 MR. EMMERSON: I think --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Shall we -- if the witness doesn't understand the
8 question, then another question or a rephrased question should be put to
9 her. Once the question is there, Mr. Emmerson, I take it --
10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. I think more generally -- I haven't
11 interrupted up until now. As we've been drifting further and further away
12 from specifics and more and more into generalisations and assessments.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That's clear.
14 MR. EMMERSON: But I think, if I may say so, we're well beyond
15 proper bounds by now.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
17 MR. RE: I'll rephrase it.
18 Q. What -- you've described propaganda in the media, what the Serb --
19 who had left -- who had left their villages and said they'd been targeted
20 had said to you. You've described -- your statement says you were in
21 Kosovo in that area at the time observing movements and things happening
22 on the road.
23 Based on everything you saw, what -- what was -- what was -- what
24 was -- what the Serbs were saying to you was consistent with what?
25 A. I still don't understand.
1 MR. EMMERSON: I --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Let me see whether we can resolve the matter.
3 You said earlier - and I'll find the passage - you said that the
4 Serbs didn't want to admit that KLA exists. That's why Serbs mostly
5 used "terrorists," terrorists" -- but also and then a few other words.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Now, do I understand your answer well that you
8 consider this to be unrealistic, saying that -- or not wanting to admit
9 that KLA existed?
10 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I actually think that KLA existed then.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, when for the first time you noticed for
12 yourself that the denial of the existence of KLA was unrealistic? When
13 for the first time you thought, what they are doing is unrealistic?
14 THE WITNESS: You mean Serbian?
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean, immediately after Likosane
17 event that I mentioned on Thursday evening. Because it is obvious that
18 there is a popular uprising after that. Then I talked to some sources in
19 LDK and I was told that already are groups on the ground not still army.
20 It was February 1998. And not still army but people are just flooding to
21 support them. Albanians really had been disappointed that the issue was
22 not sorted out after Dayton and start actually getting into a position to
23 look at this process of peaceful maintaining process.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Now --
25 THE WITNESS: So that's what I thought. Prekaz, again, the next
1 big massacre that happened on 5th or 6th. Again, I think, recruitment of
2 the people. So there is genuine movement behind it.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, you say Serbs denied KLA to exist. I
4 understand KLA to be Kosovo Liberation Army.
5 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
6 JUDGE ORIE: And at the same time, you say in February 1998 and
7 not still army. When for the first time, then, it came into your mind
8 that a denial of the existence of an army was not consistent with what you
9 considered to be an army? And I'll then later ask you why you considered
10 at a certain moment where you said in February "not still army," then --
11 THE WITNESS: No, that's not me. The source in the LDK told me
12 this is still not the army, but it's having the support, widespread
13 support. We are a little worried. But if I thought a month ago that it
14 would not be the war, now I cannot say it any more.
15 So that's what somebody else told me. I -- I'm not military
16 expert. I just saw actually KLA -- yeah, KLA soldiers. I seen them in
17 Prekaz. I seen them in Cirez and Likosane. I also had passed in --
18 outside Dreznica, had some contacts with commanders there. So I was aware
19 that it was army.
20 JUDGE ORIE: When you told us this, you're referring not only to
21 the Dukagjini area but the wider area.
22 THE WITNESS: Yeah, the wider area.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
24 Mr. Re, please proceed.
25 MR. RE: I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
2 Then -- three Defence counsels. Who's going first? Mr. Emmerson.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I think that's the plan.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 28, you'll now be cross-examined by
5 Mr. Emmerson, who's counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
6 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
8 Q. Could I ask you, please, Witness 28 to turn to paragraph 65 of
9 your witness statement. There's just one preliminary topic I want to
10 cover with you, if I may.
11 In paragraph 65, the opening lines of that paragraph indicate that
12 on the 24th or 25th of May, you were driving with your team to investigate
13 abuses in Serbian police custody, to speak to lawyers and local Albanian
14 human rights workers.
15 Now, you go on in your statement to explain that when you arrived
16 in Pec you heard about incidents that had occurred in Dolovo and Ljubenic,
17 which I'm going to come back to. But I want to ask --
18 A. Just one thing. I am quite -- I thought a lot. There are a
19 place -- two places. One is called Dolovo, one is called Dolac. And
20 they're all along the road Klina. I'm not sure is that Dolovo or Dolac.
21 Q. Very well. Well, we'll -- we'll --
22 A. Mm-hm.
23 Q. We'll come back to the Ljubenic dimension in a little while. But
24 what I want to ask you about, please, is the investigation that you were
25 then conducting and what, if anything, it led to. I want to ask you what
1 inquiries you made during that investigation into abuse of Albanian
2 prisoners detained by Serbian police.
3 A. You mean the intention, the real intention why we went there? We
4 actually gave up the same second of that, because we already heard that
5 Ljubenic is problem, so Albanian researchers immediately day after went
6 into Ljubenic, and Serbian researcher that day went to find somebody who
7 was wounded, I think in this case, in front of the --
8 Q. Very well. So that -- that mission to investigate --
9 A. That's --
10 Q. -- abuse was abandoned.
11 A. Abandoned.
12 Q. Did you ever pick that project up again?
13 A. It was not a project. Let me clarify. What we really did - and I
14 think it's to appraise all the team - we've been actually every morning
15 reading newspapers and seeing especially KIC, which is Kosovo Information
16 Centre. And we would get out of that many, many, many different names of
17 abuse and torture and prison. So this, what was happening with the Serbs
18 was like 1 per cent of our work. Everything else was dealing with the --
19 basically widespread abuse of Albanians.
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. So I can't say that specific project. The project was ongoing
23 Q. Very well. If we could look at paragraph 26 of your statement for
24 a moment. You assert there in the first sentence that it was: "Well
25 known that a culture of corruption existed at all levels within the law
1 enforcement and judicial systems in Kosovo."
2 And then a little further down at the bottom end of the paragraph,
3 you refer to the practice of what are known as informative talks.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you say: "That was the normal expression then used by Serbian
6 police when they intended to beat or torture persons in order to extract
7 information or confessions."
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can I ask you, please, to explain the basis for those two
10 assertions, what it is that you base those on.
11 A. Informative discussions were something not only present in Kosovo.
12 I was personally invited a couple of times for informative discussions.
13 And that meant not really just informing but in -- by many Albanians who
14 actually told me that, meant really beating and torturing people in the
15 prison. But then out of that, some of the Serbian command structures
16 basically made money, so they said, Well, let's charge it. And sometimes
17 they pretended, and sometimes not. But it was quite a financially
18 successful job.
19 Q. In paragraph 34 of your statement, when dealing with the aftermath
20 of the incident in Gllogjan on the 24th of March, you say that you
21 received reports that many local Albanians were arrested and taken to the
22 Decani police station, where they were interrogated and beaten.
23 And my first question is: What was the source of those reports?
24 A. The source were Albanian witnesses of the event, and that were
25 police intervention in Glodjane. Because we had Albanian researchers
1 interviewing witnesses of the event. And as far as I remember there, was
2 also a school where the children were scared and the parents tried to save
3 the children there. I also think that Serbian police at certain point
4 used some men, Albanian, as cover -- as hostages or something like that.
5 Q. These reports that you received --
6 A. Mm-hm.
7 Q. -- of Albanians being beaten during interrogation --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- were they unique or were they typical of information that you
10 received about the treatment of Albanian suspects in Serb police custody
11 in Western Kosovo at this time?
12 A. It was typical across the Kosovo, not only Western Kosovo.
13 Q. Are you able to give any more information about that practice, if
14 it was a practice?
15 A. I mean, I'm sure that you can find at (redacted)
16 many, many, many interviews that we made with the people who were beaten
17 or tortured, especially after Orahovac fell. I remember that I talked
18 actually with some people, Albanians -- not some; many -- who were later
19 taken to Stimlje or somewhere -- Prizren in the police station and some, I
20 think, were killed. For some people, I know that they were killed in
22 Q. We're going to see with you in a moment if I can just trace that
23 observation through with you. But could we look, please, just briefly at
24 the report that Mr. Re has just taken you to and this has just been marked
25 for identification, the humanitarian law violations in Kosovo report. And
1 I ask these questions, if I may, without prejudice to the submissions
2 about admissibility of this document. And --
3 A. Can I have this -- that on my screen?
4 Q. Yes. I'm going to ask you, please -- it's P1212, and it's page 53
5 of the document I want to ask you about. Sorry, page -- I think we have
6 page 45. It's -- it should be page 53. That's the one.
7 A. Mm-hm.
8 Q. Under the heading "Arrests -- detentions and arrests," the
9 document records in the first sentence that arbitrary detentions and
10 arrests of ethnic Albanians have escalated rapidly throughout 1998.
11 And then if I can just drop down to the next paragraph:
12 "In July and August, detained individuals increasingly included
13 human rights activists, humanitarian aid workers, political party members,
14 doctors, and lawyers, many of whom were physically abused in custody Human
15 Rights Watch has substantial and credible evidence from lawyers and family
16 members of detainees that torture and ill-treatment" --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson, you're reading.
18 Q. "That torture and ill-treatment of detainees is common, especially
19 in the police stations during the first days in custody. From March to
20 August 1998, five people" --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson. Mr. Emmerson.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Too fast?
23 JUDGE ORIE: We're now just finished the French translation.
24 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. I'm following the transcript without
25 listening to the translation. It's the usual error.
1 Q. If I can pick it up then. "From March to August 1998, five people
2 are known to have died from torture while in police custody; hundreds of
3 others have been beaten." And then there's a reference to restricted
5 Then at the very bottom of that section there, are two lines that
6 read: "In the past, terrorist-related trials have been marred by serious
7 procedural irregularities, as well as the use of torture to extract
9 I want you to help us, if you can, please, as to what you know of
10 that practice and whether you have information as to whether it was a
11 systematic practice or not.
12 A. That was a systematic practice. Exactly the lawyers that they are
13 mentioned here, I had quite well-established lawyers, contacts with the
14 lawyers, so they've been the source of serious cases and informations to
15 (redacted) had own lawyer who
16 was following just because of that different procedures so we could
17 somehow warn public if something like that is happening. But yes, it was
18 quite often and systematic.
19 My understanding was that witnessing, I don't know, maybe -- maybe
20 that's a history then and it's not important, but in 1996 and 1997 there
21 were a lot of attacks on different targets, usually police forces and
22 sometimes loyal Albanians. And KLA was taking, actually for public
23 statements possibility for this. And somehow it was a circle, they would
24 then enter the house and arrest everybody in relation and then torture all
25 family to extract some -- some of this -- to admit that they are
1 terrorists and that would make more terrorists coming through.
2 Q. I want -- in the context of this specific research done by the
3 (redacted), please, to look with you at a document which has
4 been marked for identification as D194.
5 And I'm going to go to specific passages of it, and so might I ask
6 that this small bundle of documents be handed around.
7 The document, the extract of which is behind tab 2 in this bundle,
8 is D194, and it's a (redacted) report authored by
9 Natasa Kandic and dated November 2001 but relating to events during 1998
10 and 1999.
11 And I wonder -- could I ask you behind tab 2A -- I'm sorry, behind
12 tab 2B to look at page 12, first of all. And just about two-thirds of the
13 way down the page, the last full paragraph before the quotation, it
15 "Torture was systematically applied towards the detained ethnic
16 Albanian citizens. They were subjected to most severe methods of physical
17 and psychological maltreatment and cruel, inhumane, and degrading
18 treatment during the time -- entire time of their detention."
19 And there's then a reference to the conditions in which people
20 were held, with denial of medical help, medicine, food, and drink.
21 And it goes on:
22 "They were inhumanly and cruelly punished by being tied to a
23 light-post, beaten with batons, with electrical -- electric and baseball
24 bats, including torture by using electric shocks."
25 And then there's a reference to a list of individuals for who
1 there was a serious indication that they had died in detention as a
2 consequence of torture.
3 Now, is that the group of individuals that you were referring to
4 earlier on?
5 A. No, that's -- as I remember -- but I am familiar with these names,
6 except for one --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
8 THE WITNESS: Rexhep Musaku, I don't remember that name. This is
9 Uvisevac [phoen] case. Trials monitored with a separate department with
10 (redacted), but we also as the researchers were
11 interviewing actually family members, how they were arrested and, what was
13 Concretely, I recognise the names. I don't know the details,
14 except Rexhep Musaku case, name I don't recognise.
15 MR. EMMERSON:
16 Q. Based on the interviews you were conducting during your time in
17 Kosovo, do you agree with the conclusion that torture was systematically
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. And if we could just turn to paragraph 20, please --
21 I'm sorry, page 20, paragraph 2.1. Again, by reference to statements
22 taken by (redacted).
23 At the bottom of that page is a paragraph which reads as follows:
24 "The detained Albanians faced hours of maltreatment so that they would
25 admit an act, sign some statement, i.e. so that they would repeat the
1 story to the investigative judge, a story that had been extorted from them
2 by the MUP organs. Before an accused was taken to the investigative
3 judge, the MUP members combined their methods of violence (by beating with
4 batons, draining with hunger, thirst, and sleeplessness) by threats and
5 blackmail, so as to 'form' the prisoner's statement."
6 And then there's an example:
7 "Faik Hoti was told that he would 'be killed completely', while
8 Danush Kurtaj was told that he would be tortured when he returns from the
9 investigative judge if he changes the statement he confirmed to the
11 My first question is: Does that summary information accurately
12 reflect information given to you from lawyers that you interviewed?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And secondly, this, we've heard some evidence --
15 A. Although, this case is coming from the period where I already
16 haven't been there, but it does reflect --
17 Q. All right.
18 MR. RE: Can we just clarify this. It appears from my reading of
19 this report it that relates to events either in 1999 or to places outside
20 the indictment area. If Mr. Emmerson could clarify that, I'd be satisfied
21 by where it's going.
22 MR. EMMERSON: Well --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
24 MR. EMMERSON: There's a series of specific examples given, some
25 of them inside the indictment area, some of them outside. For example,
1 there was an 1999 example in May from the municipality of Pec. And there
2 are certainly examples within the interviews of allegations made during
3 the indictment period. But the questions that I'm putting to the witness
4 are based on the interviews that she conducted whether the conclusions in
5 the report are consistent with the information that she was obtaining from
6 detained Albanians and their lawyers.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I think it -- that clarifies. But, of
8 course, if it's consistent with events that took place later, then, of
9 course, it might not be of any relevance, Mr. --
10 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. Perhaps I should clarify that with the
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, please do so.
13 MR. EMMERSON:
14 Q. Was this consistent with information that was provided to you
15 about detentions during 1998?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. RE: I still object. That still doesn't make it relevant.
18 The fact that (redacted) report refers to things in 1999 doesn't -- it can't
19 make it relevant for some things the Serbs might have done in 1998 in the
20 indictment area. And --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Well --
22 MR. RE: -- further, what is the relevance to the allegations
23 before the Court?
24 JUDGE ORIE: Well, what -- as far as I understand, Mr. Emmerson is
25 now asking, but -- is whether the information which we find in the report
1 to some extent covering the indictment period, to some extent outside the
2 indictment period, whether that was consistent with the information that
3 was provided to you by the detentions during 1998.
4 I think the 1998 detentions are important, what happened later on
5 could --
6 MR. EMMERSON: Exactly so. Which is why I'm not relying on the
7 interviews themselves but on the witness's testimony that what is here
8 reflected --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Could you then please focus on what in the interviews
10 the witness held was said about detention in 1998.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Yes, exactly so.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
13 MR. EMMERSON:
14 Q. Let me just, for the sake of absolute clarity, put the position to
15 you specifically: From interviews carried out by you and your
16 organisation with detained Albanians and their lawyers, was it -- was it a
17 common occurrence that it would be reported to you that torture was
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was it so common as to be capable, in your judgement, of being
21 described as "systematic"?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that would have covered the whole of Kosovo, including the
24 Dukagjin area?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And --
2 A. Mostly -- mostly after the -- when arrests happened, after the
3 summer clashes between the KLA and police forces. Then there would be
4 systematic arrests of the people and then whoever was arrested was
6 Q. But you noticed similar allegation between --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Could we -- could we first ask: When you are talking
8 about the summer clashes, you are referring to the summer 1998 clashes?
9 THE WITNESS: 1998, yeah.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
11 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
12 MR. EMMERSON:
13 Q. But you recorded yourself within your organisation similar
14 allegations being made has early as the 24th of March following those
15 clashes in Gllojane?
16 A. 1997 also.
17 Q. Now, referring to the passage I just took you to, there was a
18 record there of individual -- of an individual being threatened that
19 unless he repeated before the investigating judge a statement that had
20 been beaten from him in police custody, he would be beaten when he returns
21 from the investigative judge.
22 Now, I just want to ask if you can help us with that a little.
23 We've heard some testimony in this court that once a person has been
24 brought before the investigative judge they would not be returned to the
25 custody of the MUP but would be returned to a form of investigative
1 detention so that they could not thereafter be beaten by the officers who
2 may have used force to extract their confession.
3 A. Mm-hm.
4 Q. Can you help us as to whether that's accurate or not, from the
5 system as you understood it?
6 A. I have to say that at the moment when I worked there, my job was
7 just to somehow coordinate and cover events, events, events. And the --
8 all monitoring of the trials. I was updated as it -- the time goes, but I
9 didn't really follow the trials.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. So I just have that kind of knowledge listening my colleagues,
12 lawyers, and others.
13 Q. And based on your conversation with your colleagues and lawyers,
14 were there allegations of people being threatened by the MUP that unless
15 they repeated their statements before the investigative judge they would
16 be beaten afterwards?
17 A. Yes, that was typical.
18 Q. And, again, are you able to comment on the suggestion that it
19 wouldn't be possible for the MUP to beat a suspect after he or she had
20 appeared before the investigative judge?
21 A. I can't comment that.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you.
23 MR. EMMERSON: Your Honour, I see the time. Would this be a
24 convenient moment to take a break?
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, it would be a convenient moment.
1 Could I, at the same time, inquire into the time Defence counsel
2 expect still to need.
3 MR. EMMERSON: I have quite a considerable amount of material to
4 cover with this witness. Might I give Your Honour an accurate time
5 estimate when we return?
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. EMMERSON: Thank you.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a break until quarter past 4.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 4.33 p.m.
11 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber apologises for the late start.
12 Mr. Emmerson, you may proceed.
13 MR. EMMERSON:
14 Q. Can I ask you, please, just to turn to paragraph 46 of your
15 witness statement once again very briefly, where you are referring to some
16 interviews that were conducted with Serb families in Decani.
17 I just want to ask you this. You say: "we interviewed as many
18 refugees as we could." When you say "we interviewed" --
19 It may be just wise if we --
20 JUDGE ORIE: Turn into private session.
21 MR. EMMERSON: I may be overcautious but ...
22 [Private session]
11 Pages 10220-10237 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
20 MR. EMMERSON:
21 Q. I just want to see if I've understood the evidence that you've
22 given so far in -- in connection with armed incidents in the area of
23 Baballoq in April correctly.
24 If we could start, please, with paragraph 42 of your statement.
25 You say there that as far as you could recall at that time, that is, the
1 28th of April, there was no MUP station based in the settlement, although
2 you had information from refugees that the MUP were patrolling regularly.
3 And then you say, rather -- in connection with your interviews of
4 Albanian refugees, that they insisted that the police was shooting at them
5 from Suka Baballoq, Suka Crmljane, the Baballoq settlement, and the
6 Agro-Combinat behind the Baballoq settlement. Is that correctly
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So the accounts that you were receiving from the Albanian refugees
10 that you were interviewing included the suggestion that police were firing
11 from the settlement itself.
12 A. Yes, but after 20th, because then the refugees started leaving the
14 Q. And did you manage to conduct any investigation yourself about the
15 deployment of Serb police or military in and around the Babaloc refugee
17 A. I drove - and this sounds fantastic, but I did - I drove to
18 Agro-Combinat. I left Albanian researchers in some of the villages near
19 Djakovica. I drove to Agro-Combinat behind to check that. And I didn't
20 see any movements there. But bear in mind we are talking about 29th, and
21 I think that all of this already happened --
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. -- between 20th or 25th.
24 Q. Come back to the 22nd or so in a moment or two.
25 We have heard from a man called Rade Repic, who was the commander
1 of a PJP company of the MUP, who arrived to relieve another PJP company in
2 May, and he has told us that in May, the greater part of his company, 130
3 to 150 men, was deployed in the area of the Baballoq settlement with
4 observation posts on Suka Baballoq and on the outskirts.
5 Now, did you see whether there were any deployments on Suka
7 A. No, I didn't. But "Suka" means actually top of the hill.
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. I didn't see that. But it was April. He's talking about May?
10 Q. Quite correct. But you had received reports of shooting from Suka
11 Baballoq in April, had you not?
12 A. Suka Babaloc and Suka Crmljanska.
13 Q. Yes. But you weren't able to check whether in fact there were MUP
14 or PJP forces in that area?
15 A. No, actually the settlement was empty when I was there. Literally
16 empty. Nobody except these three people sitting there.
17 JUDGE ORIE: May I again -- may I again ask you to make a short
18 break between question and answer.
19 Where you said about the reports of shooting from Suka Babaloc in
20 April, you said Suka Babaloc and Suka?
21 THE WITNESS: Suka Crmljanska.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
23 MR. EMMERSON:
24 Q. He's also testified that when he -- his men were deployed there,
25 they were occupying the physical accommodation in the refugee camp closest
1 to the road.
2 A. That could be quite possible. That's what Albanian witnesses
4 Q. That's what they were telling you. And they were telling you that
5 in April as well; is that correct?
6 A. They were telling that in April, yeah.
7 Q. Yes. So although you didn't see MUP --
8 A. I didn't see.
9 Q. -- when you went to the Agro-Combinat, your -- the accounts that
10 you were receiving were consistent with there being --
11 A. In May. But can I say I had some reserves about that, because
12 in -- in reality first time when I heard that special -- that more troops
13 are coming and almost preparing for the conflict was beginning of May, mid
14 of May, and I understand with a researcher who went also to Decani to the
15 interview to interview Serbian refugees there that she was not allowed to
16 go up to the youth hostel because there was some police forces there.
17 Q. You say in paragraph 42, as I've understood it, in the second
18 sentence, you say:
19 "My information from the refugees was that the MUP were patrolling
20 regularly the area."
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. Now, do you mean the area around the Baballoq settlement?
23 A. The Babaloc settlement, yeah.
24 Q. And the refugees that you were referring to in that settlement,
25 they would be Serb refugees?
1 A. Or Montenegrin.
2 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, Serbian or Montenegrin refugees.
3 Did you manage to establish then exactly where those patrols were
4 situated during April?
5 A. No. They just complained that nobody was helping them except
6 Serbian police that are visiting them from time to time.
7 Q. Yes. And just coming to the incidents that you describe between
8 the 18th and 28th of April, I just wanted to see if you could help us with
9 one matter, please. Just bear with me one second.
10 Could we please pull up on the screen Exhibit P84. And this will
11 need to be not shown to the public, because it has been admitted under
12 seal, as I understand it.
13 Now, the document that we're looking at here, Witness, is a
14 situation report by the British military attache to Belgrade reporting an
15 armed engagement around Baballoq on the 22nd of April. Do you see that?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. And if we look at the summary:
18 "FRY warned" -- that is, warned by the British government -- "of
19 concern at reported Yugoslav Army involvement in fighting around Babaloc
20 on the 22nd of April."
21 And then under "detail":
22 "Telecons under reference discussed media reports of fighting
23 around Babaloc" -- and location is given -- "in which the Yugoslav Army
24 was said to be involved, and our grounds for considering them credible.
25 It was agreed that I should immediately warn the FRY of our concern."
1 If we just pass --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
3 MR. EMMERSON:
4 Q. If we could just pass over paragraph 3, which describes the
5 conversation with the chef de cabinet and pick it up at paragraph 4:
6 "First secretary (in Pristina) has subsequently talked to a number
7 of journalists reporting events. There are conflicting views with some
8 believing army and special forces are involved, others maintaining there
9 is no direct evidence of this. It appears that Serb forces (of whatever
10 composition) in the area were reinforced yesterday, with a position
11 established on the hill overlooking the village. Today Albanians reacted,
12 leading to exchanges of fire, possibly including mortars."
13 Do you see that?
14 A. Yes. Yes.
15 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry, we're just waiting.
16 Q. Now, obviously you can see this document is dated the 22nd of
17 April, but it refers to events that took place prior to that, including a
18 specific influx and exchange the day before.
19 A. 21st, yeah.
20 Q. Yes. Is this the armed engagement that you were describing to us
21 earlier on, do you think?
22 A. Yes, except here there is not that side that I was told about
23 shooting on the 19th, on the Easter, from Babaloc side towards the
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. And it's true that some of the Albanian refugees mentioned
2 military planes.
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Military planes appearing in the area, yeah.
5 Q. So -- so just to return to Judge Orie's question. I mean, you've
6 had certain impressions given to you by Serb civilians.
7 A. Mm-hm.
8 Q. Including, for example, an impression given you about an incident
9 that took place at the Baballoq refugee camp on the 28th of April.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. But -- but does it appear to you clear that there were armed
12 engagements taking place between fairly considerable Serbian military
13 forces and forces on the other side during this period in April?
14 A. Yes, it does, starting from 19th.
15 Q. And you don't know where the Serb forces were based in relation to
16 the Baballoq refugee camp at that point.
17 A. No, except what Albanian refugees told and what Serbian refugees
19 Q. And the Albanians told you they were in the refugee camp shooting
20 from there.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the Serbian refugees told you they were patrolling in the
24 A. Not only that, but it was conflicting also in the dates because
25 Serbian refugees said that actually Albanian KLA forces are on the Suka e
1 Babaloc at 18th night and 19th in the morning and during the day.
2 Q. So --
3 A. I think they also mentioned in Katik [phoen] the roads that night
4 between 19th and 20th so that the KLA controlled the Decani-Djakovica
6 Q. So a fairly conflicting picture --
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. -- but some significant armed engagements taking place on both
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Just one or two other matters, if I may, briefly with
13 You -- from paragraph 78 onwards describe certain matters
14 concerning the arrival of the FARK. And just to understand the basis for
15 your recollection, you indicate in paragraph 78 that you think that they
16 arrived around May.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And a little further on, you describe - bear with me a moment - a
19 situation that arose in Isnic which led to the evacuation --
20 A. Evacuation.
21 Q. -- of civilians and FARK troops, which you describe as having
22 taken place in July.
23 A. I think it was July, in the summer.
24 Q. Yes. I mean, you don't have any records of these -- of the
25 information or the sources of your information for this, do you?
1 A. Not really, no.
2 Q. No. I mean, it -- you could -- would you accept you could be out
3 by several months?
4 A. For -- you mean for the summer for the refugees or for -- for
6 Q. For the arrival of FARK and the issues that you're describing?
7 A. I'm not sure, because I think that the same period, in the end of
8 April, there was a big funeral, again, in Erec and it was a big political
10 Q. Sorry, we may be at cross-purposes here. Before you -- before you
11 carry on, I'm asking you about the dates that you've given here in
12 relation, first of all, to the arrival --
13 A. That's why I'm explaining --
14 Q. Oh, sorry.
15 A. I'm trying to explain why I think it happened in May, because in
16 March and April LDK still didn't know how to deal with KLA appearance and
17 the fights. And by the end of April on that big funeral, big political
18 names appeared and -- in Erec and there was kind of popular invitation for
19 the -- for uprising.
20 Q. And --
21 A. And that's, I think, that's in my head now is that somehow then
22 FARK appears together.
23 Q. Yes. Would you accept that their arrival in Kosovo could have
24 been as late as the last week of June?
25 A. I don't think that they arrived so late.
1 Q. I'm just trying to understand probing the sources and accuracy of
2 your information. And the incident in Isnic where Vukmir Mrksic delivered
3 an ultimatum for the surrender of weapons. You put that in July. Could
4 that have been as late as September?
5 A. No, not really. It was summer. It was time when Orahovac also
6 was attacked.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. I think.
9 Q. And finally in paragraph 82, you -- you describe the decision of
10 Tahir Zemaj to surrender weapons, and so forth. And you -- you refer to
11 Albanians that you interviewed later.
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Telling you what Ramush Haradinaj thought about that decision.
14 First of all, can you tell us, please, the names of the people, if
15 you know them, who gave you that information?
16 A. This is really basically hearsay. I don't think that I can at
18 Q. Well, that's -- that's quite important --
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. -- for us to understand that.
21 A. Yeah, because really -- and that's what I also said to the
22 Prosecutor why I think my -- my testimony was not of great importance. I
23 mean, I was not a witness of the crimes or victim of the crime.
24 Q. Yes, just --
25 A. And the fact is that it was talk in Balkan way. You do some
1 things, you hear the other things.
2 Q. Can we take it, please, then that what you have recorded here as
3 having been a -- a statement of Mr. Haradinaj's position is really nothing
4 more than rumour or gossip?
5 A. I -- I don't know what he really said, and I'm not sure even that
6 these people who told me that were witness, yeah.
7 Q. Yeah.
8 A. But it's kind of -- quite well-known story there in Kosovo. Then
9 and now.
10 Q. Thank you very much.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, or Mr. Harvey, who is going to be
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I offered and he offered back.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Then please proceed.
15 Witness 28, you'll now be cross-examined by Mr. Guy-Smith, who's
16 counsel for Mr. Balaj.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: Considering the time that we took to start, when
18 does the Chamber wish to take -- I just want to know --
19 JUDGE ORIE: We had -- of course, we returned later than expected.
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Under normal circumstances, I would have a break at
22 quarter to 6.00 then for 20 minutes and then have 55 minutes remaining
23 after the break.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay.
25 JUDGE ORIE: But if you'd say "I need so and so much time," we
1 could even consider to have the break once you've finished.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Okay.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Unless that would be too late.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: I don't -- I think we'll probably be able -- we'll
5 be close to the normal --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Quarter to 6.00.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: We'll be close to our normal time, in any event.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 Mr. Harvey, could you give already an indication, even before
10 having heard the questions put by Mr. Guy-Smith?
11 MR. HARVEY: I shall be brief.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, thank you.
13 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Guy-Smith:
15 Q. Witness 28, you mentioned early in your testimony today that you
16 relied on a number of sources for the information that you were compiling,
17 and so I'm clear, was one of those sources the Council for the Defence of
18 Human Rights and Freedoms in Kosovo?
19 A. Yeah.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, if -- if you would not mind that I
21 interrupt you for a moment I just received an urgent request. I have to
22 break at 5.30. So therefore we'll have a break at 5.30. I apologise, but
23 I wasn't aware of that --
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Not a problem.
25 JUDGE ORIE: -- two minutes ago.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: Not a problem.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: And perhaps we should go in -- into private
4 session for a moment.
5 JUDGE ORIE: We'll turn into private session.
6 [Private session]
11 Page 10251 redacted. Private session.
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're back in open session.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: And I'm mindful of the fact that I need to turn
18 the microphone off when she's answering the question. Correct? Thank
20 Q. I'd like you to, if you could, turn to report number 402. And I
21 believe the tab says "402", which for purposes of e-court is 2D001116.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And that would need a number if you want to tender
23 that, Mr. Guy-Smith.
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for
2 identification as D195.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if we -- if we could, starting on page 1 in
5 the comment section of that - and by that I mean the very first paragraph
6 before it discusses the events in the Drenica region and surround -.
7 Q. Were you aware of the arrest of Rasim Muhamet Selmanaj?
8 A. Yes, I was. Later was tried also by Serbian court.
9 Q. And if we could turn now to page 2, the date being the 27th of
10 March, under the title of "Shtime." Were you aware of what happened with
11 Shefqet Krasniqi, who was a teacher, who was taken to the security centre
12 in Ferizaj on the 26th and 27th of March, where he was severely
13 ill-treated and threatened with imprisonment as a 'possible organiser' of
14 the Albanian demonstrations?
15 A. I'm sorry, I can't find this part of the report.
16 No, for this case, I can't recollect. I can't remember.
17 Q. Okay. In -- in March of 1998, there were a series of
18 demonstrations that were still occurring throughout Kosovo which were
19 peaceful demonstrations, as they could be called, where -- whereby
20 Albanian individuals were protesting against what they perceived to be
21 Serbian, let's say, abuses, aggression, or otherwise mistreatment? Is
22 that a fair statement?
23 A. Protests -- I actually was there when the protests occurred, and
24 they've been -- they occurred after the Prekaz event. I think women also
25 protested and students for the -- for the massacre that happened in
1 Prekaz, if it is that protest we are talking in March.
2 Q. And after the protest in March, did you become aware of the fact
3 that the protesters or any of the protesters were arrested by the Serbian
4 police for their peaceful protest activity?
5 A. I do think that we covered this arrests. I can't recollect now
6 specific cases, but we do -- we did follow that.
7 Q. Did you learn whether or not any of those protesters, after having
8 been arrested, suffered any injuries as a result of having been arrested
9 and being imprisoned for whatever period of time they were imprisoned?
10 A. I -- I just can say that I would expect them to be probably beaten
11 in arrest, but I really can't remember specific name now.
12 Q. Well, if you can't remember a specific name, that's fine, then. I
13 understand your general attitude about the situation.
14 Continuing with this report, on the 28th of March it indicates
15 that a plane of armed forces of the Yugoslav Army flew very low over the
16 Gjakova territory in the area on the border with Albania. At about 12
17 p.m. a convoy of military and police forces from Gjakova was situated in
18 Kodra e Hasit village, seven kilometres away from the town."
19 A. Mm-hm.
20 Q. Were -- was your organisation aware of -- of those kinds of
21 mobilisations, specifically this mobilisation?
22 A. We have been receiving reports and interviewing people who were
23 fleeing the border zone toward Djakovica, and there were frequent reports
24 about military stopping the smuggling of the weapons and also some people
25 were missing. A couple reports about missing people we did put together.
1 Q. And one -- and one last question before we take the break. These
2 reports were reports, if I -- if I understood your testimony correctly
3 that, you received on a daily basis. You were getting the information
4 contemporaneously as these events were unfolding.
5 A. Yes, from KIC, and they record this and we followed these events.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could take the break at this point.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we'll have a break.
8 As far as I can expect now, it will be a break of 20 minutes. We
9 will then resume at ten minutes to 6.00. But I can't give a promise to
10 that. Everyone should stay -- remain stand-by on from ten minutes to
12 --- Recess taken at 5.31 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 5.58 p.m.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, may I now expect you to finish not
15 later than quarter past?
16 Please proceed.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'll do my best.
18 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours, if I could indicate, it is unlikely
19 that I will have more than one question for this witness, and so
20 Mr. Guy-Smith might be entitled to a slight -- a larger slice of the pie
21 than that, but -- with respect.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
23 Thank you, Mr. Harvey.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
1 Q. One of the things that was -- was occurring, of course, was that
2 apart from getting the daily information, there was also delayed
3 information that was coming in to -- to you, in terms of the kinds of
4 things that were occurring on the ground during this period of time;
6 A. I quite didn't understand this. Can you repeat?
7 Q. Absolutely. Apart from receiving information on a daily basis,
8 also what was happening was you were receiving some information concerning
9 events that had occurred earlier and you got the information a little bit
10 later, later in the week, for example.
11 A. Later in the week, yes.
12 Q. Okay. And in -- for example - I'm looking at page 3, and I'm
13 still dealing with the very -- the very same report, that's report number
14 402, under "Delayed information."
15 If you go down to the - one, two, three - it's the third paragraph
16 from the bottom. It says:
17 "On 19 March, after the Albanians' peaceful protest, some armed
18 Serbs chased some students with the" -- and then names the gymnasium --
19 "and forced them to jump into the Drini i Bardhe River."
20 And my question to you is -- do you see that there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. My question to you there is: Essentially what was happening at
23 this period of time was, not only was there increased tensions as between
24 the -- the Albanian civilians and the police but there was also increased
25 tensions between Serbian civilians and Albanian civilians during that
1 period of time because of what was going on?
2 A. Yeah. This is -- only -- 'cause Serbs had all positions in the
3 towns and control all positions while in the villages Serbs were minority
4 and as such had actually a difficult time.
5 Q. Okay. If we could now move to the next report, which is report
6 number 403, which is 2D1110. And if we could get a MFI number for that,
7 please, I'd appreciate it.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for
10 identification as D196.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if we could, I'd like to -- I'd like to jump
13 to page -- to page 2, dealing with the date of April 2nd.
14 Q. And on April 2nd, it indicates under "Mitrovica" -- could we --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Could we first wait until it's -- no, it's -- the
16 witness has a copy, yes.
17 Please proceed.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Thank you.
19 Q. Under "Mitrovica" it says: "The police check-points at Qipol
20 [phoen], Turnovac [phoen] and Kline e Eperme were reinforced." Are those
21 check-points that you had gone through that were Serbian check-points
22 while you were traveling in the area?
23 A. Yeah, they were check-points surrounding basically Drenica region,
24 Glogovac, Mitrovica, and Srbica.
25 Q. Now moving to April 4th, it indicates, under "Skenderaj," that:
1 "At 5 a.m. the village of Lausha was shelled from different kinds of
3 Were you aware of that shelling?
4 A. We've been aware and we interviewed many of the villagers of
6 Q. And finally on that same page, page 2, it says "The events in the
7 district of Decan." And if you go down from the first line of "Decan,"
8 one, two, three -- to the fourth line that says:
9 "The gravest situation is in the villages of Gllogjan, Dubrave,
10 Shaptej, and Prekolluke or" --
11 A. Prekolluke.
12 Q. Thank you, Prekolluke. Were you aware of --
13 A. I'm sorry, I can't see this. Where is that? April?
14 Q. Yeah, under -- under "The events in the district of Decan."
15 A. Mm-hm. And what -- what is the date?
16 Q. The date is still under April 4th. And if you go down from where
17 it says -- it has the word "Decan." You go, one, two, three, four lines
18 down. The sentence starts with the word: "The gravest situation is in
19 the villages of Gllogjan, Dubrave ..." Do you see that there?
20 A. Yeah, okay.
21 Q. Was that something you were aware of at the time it occurred, on
22 April 4th?
23 A. Not on April 4th. I was aware that Hime Haradinaj was buried and
24 that he died in the forest wounded.
25 Q. Okay. Moving on to the -- the next page. And it seems that we're
1 going back in time, in terms of dates.
2 And if we could look at the date of March 30th and March 31st.
3 You had mentioned that people were summoned for informative talks and you
4 explained to the Chamber what informative talks were.
5 I'd like you to take a look, first of all, at March 30th under the
6 area of Prizren. It indicates on the second line that Isa Berisha (1972)
7 which I'm guessing was his birth date, "was once again summoned to the
8 police under the pretext of being a member of the KLA. He was ordered to
9 report again on April 6th. He was physically ill-treated."
10 Then on March 31st, under the line of Kacanik, it indicates that a
11 gentleman was summoned for informative talks in order to report again, and
12 the same thing happened to a Haki Baxhrimaj [phoen], who, I believe, was
13 born in 1943 in Giljan, he was also summoned for informative talks.
15 A. This cases I can't recognise. We didn't investigate this cases.
16 Q. Okay. But --
17 A. We actually couldn't cope with so many different abuses, so we had
18 to basically pick several cases that we could then in -- and in-depth
20 Q. Understood. With regard to the language used of "informative
21 talks," was that a phrase that was used by not only your group but also by
22 this group to describe a particular kind of summoning of an individual by
23 the police to the police station with -- with the resultant things that
24 you've told us about, including the beatings and other abuses? So it was
25 understood that when you saw that language, "informative talks," that
1 there was some concern about there being some kind of human rights abuse
2 with regard to that individual?
3 A. Yes. Yes.
4 Q. If we could turn to page 5 of the same document, under "Delayed
5 information." In Kline and -- I'm -- it says:
6 "On March 5th, Mark Oroshi (1959) from the village of Leskoc, an
7 activist of the LDK, was summoned to the Serbian-run District Court in
9 Now, by this time - and by that I mean in April - the LDK was
10 engaged in what was generally considered to be still a peaceful attempt at
11 resolution, was it not?
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, you're developing a speed which is --
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Understood. I'll slow down.
14 Q. Do you have my question in mind?
15 A. Yes. I believe at that point, as I can remember the political
16 situation, Serbs -- Serbian regime didn't really make the difference
17 between KLA and LDK, so everything was put on the back of LDK what was
18 happening with different KLA activities.
19 Q. Okay. This gentleman was summoned to the Serbian-run District
20 Court in Klina. He was arrested and severely ill-treated for allegedly
21 being an associate of the KLA. Police threatened to cut his genital
22 organs. Due to injuries suffered, he had to seek for medical help. On
23 March 16th, he was once again taken to court.
24 Are you aware of this particular case?
25 A. This particular case, no.
1 Q. At the -- there are a number other instances --
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Sorry.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Mr. Guy-Smith, can you slow down.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes, I can. My concern is -- my concern quite
6 frankly is this, Your Honour. I'm looking -- I'm looking at the clock,
7 and I am in the second of 23 reports and I want to get through them.
8 JUDGE ORIE: You may proceed.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: [French spoken] And I have now turned to the
10 French channel in order to work with the interpreters.
11 MR. RE: Just --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
13 MR. RE: Just in terms of scheduling, we do have another witness
14 here at the moment. Could I just inform the Trial Chamber and the parties
15 the witness has made some minor changes to his proposed Rule 92 ter
16 statement, and they're in the process of being translated.
17 Now, Mr. Di Fazio said he could either inform the Defence orally
18 of what these are and give them a copy of it or start with the witness
19 orally, if we get to him, or start in the morning. Those are the options
20 at the moment.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Looking at our schedule for the coming days and
22 the coming weeks, I'd rather not lose even a minute in court; although,
23 I'm aware that the Chamber today have stolen -- has stolen also some time,
24 but there were good reasons for that.
25 Mr. Guy-Smith, even with -- at the French speed, how much time
1 would you think you would still need? Another ten minutes?
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: I believe that realistically I will be at least
3 another 20 to 25 minutes.
4 JUDGE ORIE: How much time would you need in re-examination?
5 MR. RE: I'll probably need about five minutes.
6 But just in relation to the next witness. Could I say that he
7 actually arrived at our office at about 4.00, having been delayed at the
8 airport. So we didn't actually get to speak to him until 4.00 p.m. and
9 have made all efforts to --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
11 MR. EMMERSON: Sorry to rise, I'm just slightly puzzled because
12 I'm not aware of the Prosecution having served a 92 ter statement for this
13 next witness.
14 MR. RE: No, it's his statement. We would have just --
15 JUDGE ORIE: His statement --
16 MR. RE: We would just seek to adopt it, that's all.
17 What we were only -- we were just going to rely upon that
19 JUDGE ORIE: It's the February 2006 statement, yes.
20 MR. EMMERSON: Well, if it is proposed that --
21 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest that we at this moment do not take any
22 final decision on whether we could continue and certainly not bother
23 Witness 28 with our procedural discussions.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could now -- now turn to the next report,
1 number 406, which is 2D1101. And if we could have an MFI number, I'd
2 appreciate it, please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be marked for
5 identification as D197.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if we could now turn to page 2.
8 Q. And this is with regard to events of April 21st discussing what
9 was occurring in Decan. It states:
10 "At 10.45 a.m. Serbian police and military forces attacked with
11 artillery and mortars the village of Baballoq. Serbian forces accompanied
12 with armoured cars were stationed at the Suka e Baballocit and in the
13 vicinity of the refugee settlement."
14 It also says in the same paragraph, and I'm deleting some of the
16 "The villagers are making attempts to organise their defence."
17 Now, with regard to the villages organising a defence, I take it
18 that what they're referring to here - if you know - are the Albanian
19 villagers in the villages of, for example, Likoshan, Qirez, Prekaze, where
20 you have civilian Albanians who out of a concern of what is occurring with
21 these Serbian military forces are doing their best to figure a way of
22 defending their homes?
23 A. My understanding of these events was slightly different but,
24 again, I'm basing that on different testimonies. I actually think that
25 there was attack on Babaloc settlement on 18th/19th, and then after that
1 military forces -- Serbian military forces -- and as you can see, it's
2 mentioned military planes that also many of the villagers said, returned
3 attack and suppressed that. So at that point, probably on 21st, it's true
4 as it is said.
5 I'm not quite sure was that just defence of the villagers at that
7 Q. And going on to the next day, the 22nd, under "Decan." It
8 indicates that:
9 "Since the early hours of the morning, police and military forces
10 from Radoniqi Lake, the villages of Palabaldh and Boka and the refugee
11 settlement in Baballoq have been shelling Suka e Babollocit and Baballoq
13 Now, my question here is: Is by -- by this time in April, had you
14 become aware of the extensive use of shelling by the Serbian police and
15 other forces of these villages? And by that I mean villages which were
16 inhabited by Albanian civilians.
17 A. Yes, I was. Albanian refugees were talking about these shellings.
18 I am not sure that military forces were Radonjic Lake. I just heard that
19 they were on Suka Babaloc and not in Babaloc itself. In the Suka
20 Crmljanska, while all other villages were basically under control of KLA.
21 That was my understanding at the time. But yes, they were shelling the
23 Q. And the villages that were being bombarded were villages in which
24 there was a -- an extensive civilian population that -- that may or may
25 not have been supporting the -- the basic ideas of the KLA. They were
1 fellow travelers, you could say.
2 A. Yeah, that's possible. That's possible. Because I never
3 encountered Serbian police making a real difference between civilians or
4 KLA or supporters of KLA. They usually just didn't mind -- thought it was
5 the same.
6 Q. I believe last week you mentioned an individual by the name of
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And I'd like to refer you to page 7 of this document. And under
10 the heading of "Prishtina" it says:
11 "Four military trucks full of soldiers paraded through the
12 Jabllanice road in Kodra e Trimave. Arkan was seen in Hajvalia during a
13 visit to the Serbian special police units."
14 A. I heard numerous times that Arkan's troops are coming and Arkan's
15 troops are there. I actually don't think that Arkan was ever in Kosovo,
16 that his units at that point were not interfering there. I just think it
17 was different units. Different units and different paramilitary troops.
18 Not nicer. But I just think that many Albanian villagers just by the pure
19 fact that "Arkan" meant something very nasty, as he was, was -- they were
20 always thinking that Arkan is coming or describing the Arkan units there.
21 I -- I was not aware that Arkan was there.
22 Q. For a moment, if I could, you said "different units and different
23 paramilitary troops." I take it that during your research what you did
24 learn during that time independent of your belief of whether or not it was
25 Arkan himself who was in Kosovo, was that there were other paramilitary
1 troops who were operating in the region at that time.
2 A. Yeah. If we clarify what "paramilitaries" really mean, because I
3 believe that they were controlled by the -- by the centre in Belgrade, so
4 there was no ad hoc at that point. Maybe later during the bombardment.
5 But in 1998 there was no ad hoc forces that would come just there and
6 do -- do whatever they want. They've been controlled.
7 I knew for two. One was called Lightning, Munja, and that was
8 from Pec. And I heard -- I seen this Sheshirdzije, as they were called.
9 I don't know how to translate that in English really. Somebody who wears
10 the hat. And I seen them as such. But I did believe they were special
11 forces -- different kind of special forces. I'm not military expert. So
12 I don't know more about that, let's say.
13 Q. I'd like to turn to page 9 of the same document, if I could. And
14 looking under the line item where it says "Gjilan," at the very last
15 sentence of that, it indicates that: "On April 18th, Serbian forces in
16 the prison of Gjilan demanded from Albanian prisoners to vote on the
17 forthcoming referendum of April 23rd."
18 First of all, do you remember the referendum of April 23rd, what
19 that was about?
20 A. I think that that was referendum that Milosevic government opened
21 for not interference of International Community into internal affairs. I
22 think that it was that. And I don't know for this case specific.
23 Q. Did -- did you or your organisation ever receive any information
24 that those people who were detained in Serbian prisons were being forced
25 to vote in any particular kind of a way?
1 A. No. No.
2 Q. Okay.
3 If we could return to the next -- I'm sorry, if we could go to the
4 next report, which is 2D1122, report number 408.
5 I have just been corrected. It should be 2D001122.
6 If I could have an MFI number, please.
7 JUDGE ORIE: That would be marked for identification number?
8 THE REGISTRAR: D198, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH:
11 Q. During the -- during the time that you were involved in your
12 research, did you learn of the Serbian military using bright lights at
13 night as a form of either intimidating the population or, I would say,
14 panicking the population? And I'm referring to, if you could look at page
15 2 under "May 1st." And it's -- it's well down under "Decan," right before
16 the paragraph is over. And it has the name of Halil Imer Lokaj. But my
17 interest is the following sentence:
18 "During the night, military forces are pointing their reflectors
19 towards houses in order to cause panic. Fire was opened in the direction
20 of the village of Baballoq."
21 We've had testimony that Serbian forces saw lights at night in the
22 area which -- which they attributed to the KLA. And my question to you
23 is: Did you ever receive any information that -- that the Serbian forces
24 were using this particular form of warfare with the civilian population?
25 A. I never heard for this.
1 Q. Very good. Thank you.
2 MR. RE: Could I also note that --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
4 MR. RE: -- I don't recall this specific allegation being put, as
5 should have been put under Rule -- Rule 90(H), to the witness, I think
6 with Mr. Rade Repic, who gave this evidence.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Meaning that Mr. Guy-Smith would have to put his case
8 to the witness?
9 MR. RE: Meaning that. That's right.
10 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
11 MR. RE: That's right. If indeed it's the case of the Defence
12 that those lights were the Serbian forces, that should have been put to
13 the relevant witnesses at the relevant time. I just note that in passing
14 so it could be put at the relevant point.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since this witness -- this witness is not aware
16 of anything of the kind, let's proceed.
17 Mr. Guy-Smith.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I -- I note Mr. -- I note Mr. Re's objection, and
19 I'm sure --
20 JUDGE ORIE: It's on the record.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: At a point during this we're going to be dealing
22 with issues of what's good for the goose is good for the gander in a
23 variety of areas with regard to Prosecution, but we'll deal with that at
24 another point in time.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, let's leave it for that moment, yes.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Microphone not activated]
3 Q. Could we now turn to point number 414 --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Microphone, please.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: [Microphone not activated] If I could have an MFI
7 number for that.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
9 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could now return to report number 414,
10 2D001094. If we could have a MFI number, please.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be D199.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH:
14 Q. And I'd like to direct your attention to the 21st of May, under
15 "Decan," where it indicates the following:
16 "The situation in the district of Decan continues to be grave.
17 There was shooting and shelling towards the village of Baballoq. The town
18 continues to be blocked. Police and military forces are parading through
19 the town in a show of power. The situation is very grave -- especially
20 is" -- I'm sorry, excuse me. "The situation is very grave, especially in
21 the villages on the border with Albania and Junik. Armed refugees are
22 participating in the attacks against the Albanian villages."
23 During the -- your research, did you become aware of a programme
24 from Belgrade where all Serbian men were to be reserve army fighters and
25 were issued weapons?
1 A. Well, that's not really even Milosevic invention. That was
2 Communist country, so all base of Yugoslav Army was that every person,
3 civilian, has to go to the army and stays being a reservist all the way
4 through until he's, like, 55, I think, or something like that. So that
5 was kind of Yugoslav law.
6 And I -- I was aware that there were -- that there was attempt to
7 arm Serbian civilians beginning of the March mostly in the villages where
8 they been really nervous about attacks, and I was also aware that Serbian
9 police very often didn't actually help when they really came under attack.
10 Like, for example, in Klina municipality. So they would pull out, a
11 little bit defend themselves and then surrender and escape. And Serbian
12 police wasn't -- didn't have at that time power to enter and do anything.
13 It was May, May when these events were happening. Mostly in
14 Klina, with the Serbs.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 In the -- going -- in the same document, looking at May 22nd,
17 under "Peja," it indicates that "Large police forces armed with heavy
18 weaponry were stationed on the hill over the villages of Gllogjan and
20 Were you aware of -- of that information?
21 A. Are we talking about the Glodjane in Decani municipality? I was
22 not aware of that information, and I actually doubt that it's true. I
23 think it's first time really when Serbian police entered Rznic and
24 Glodjane was the end of August when they launched big offensive. They did
25 try to launch, I think, nine offensives into Rznic and Glodjane, but they
1 never really entered the -- the space, as far as I know.
2 Q. Now, just so we're clear, this is information - and by that I mean
3 you were receiving, as I understood it, the -- the daily reports, the KIC
4 reports, correct?
5 A. KIC. And we were then but also that report needs to be
6 double-checked in a -- in a way. So I was not aware of that ever since,
7 basically, after 25th of April to the end of August any police forces
8 entered Glodjane. I don't doubt. I don't say it's true. I just say I
9 was not aware. I'm surprised.
10 Q. With -- with that in mind, then, turning to page -- page 4,
11 dealing with the date of May 23rd, once again in Decan, it indicates:
12 "Large police forces were stationed on the cross-road near Prejlep
13 on the road Decan-Gjakova. They opened fire towards the villages of
14 Prejlep and Dranoc. The situation is very dramatic. 20 APCs, 2 armoured
15 cars, 2 cannons, and large police forces made efforts to pass through the
16 villages of Carrabreg i Poshtem and Prejlep, but they clashed with the
17 forces of the KLA."
18 A. My understanding was from May 23rd to May 31st, when actually the
19 fighting really started, that Serbian police and army mounted presence
20 there, as well as probably the other side was getting ready for the clash
21 over these -- controlling the road and opening toward the border. That
22 was my understanding what was happening at that time.
23 JUDGE HOEPFEL: Pardon. We didn't really understand. The
24 beginning of your answer was: "My understanding was from May 23rd to May
1 THE WITNESS: 31st. 31st, sorry, three-one.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: To May 31st. Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
4 MR. GUY-SMITH:
5 Q. Turning to 2D001134, report number 416.
6 If I could have a --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Registrar.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- MFI number, please.
9 THE REGISTRAR: D200, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: And if we could go down to the -- it's right in
12 about the middle of the page. It says -- starts with the language, on the
13 second time, it says:
14 "On May 31st, the situations in the villages in the district of
15 Decan, as well as in the neighbouring villages is dramatic. A war is
16 fought between Serbian police, military, and paramilitary forces and
17 Albanian villagers."
18 A. Yeah, that's true. On May 31st in the morning started a real
19 battle between Serbian police. I would not say -- call that any more
20 "Albanian villagers." I really think it was KLA.
21 Q. And when you -- when you say that you really think it's -- it's
22 the KLA, did -- did you have at that time information that there were
23 villagers who were also at that time fighting, apart from the KLA?
24 A. I -- my understanding of KLA at that time was that there was not
25 too many soldiers, so it was not powerful army but had support -- supports
1 from the villagers and -- who basically joined because of belief in that
2 way of fights and future of Kosovo or because they just got armed in fear
3 of Serbian revenge. But it was a mix of the villagers, armed villagers,
4 and KLA soldiers. Conscripts, I would say. KLA. 'Cause as far as I
5 remember, it lasted more than seven days and the media were forbidden to
6 enter the -- enter that zone at all -- at all. And it was after that in
7 Decani many houses were burnt. It was quite a stressful time for all
8 civilians there.
9 Q. And -- and during that time, was the Mother Teresa foundation was
10 working in the area, was it not, in an attempt to bring aid to civilians
11 who were suffering from what was occurring at the time?
12 A. I -- I remember Mother Teresa, yeah, working.
13 JUDGE ORIE: That last question, relevance, Mr. Guy-Smith, becomes
14 more and more a question to me.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: There has been discussion about doctors being
16 stopped and being disallowed to give aid. And to the extent that this is
17 something that occurred here and people who were in that position --
18 JUDGE ORIE: Then please ask about what you're referring to as a
19 relevant issue. I take it that you can't -- you can't frustrate the work
20 of doctors if there are no doctors. That's for sure. That's -- but let's
21 come to your point, if there's any specific issue. Please proceed.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH:
23 Q. Turning to page 7 of the same document, under the line of "Peja."
24 This is, once again, for the date of May 31st. Were you aware of there
25 being clashes in the villages of -- of Raushiq?
1 A. Not really. I thought that Rausic was later in the summer had
2 clashes with -- with military.
3 Q. Very well. If we could go to the next report, report number 418,
5 JUDGE ORIE: It needs a number, I take it?
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: It does.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
8 THE REGISTRAR: D201, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH:
11 Q. I'd like to point your attention now to page 2, under "Prishtina."
12 Were you aware of the fact that there was an -- an increased number of
13 soldiers coming into the region -- and I'm reading specifically the
15 "Six cars with reservists and three covered cars probably with
16 weapons arrived at the railway station in Fushe-Kosova at about 10 a.m.
17 Over 1000 Serbian soldiers arrived at the railway station in Prishtine."
18 A. Can you remind me of the date. The date, can you remind me?
19 Q. June 8th.
20 A. June 8th. In Pristina now? I can't remember seeing military
21 presence in Pristina. Yes, in Pec, not in Pristina.
22 Q. Turning to page 3 on June 9th under "Gjakova." There's an
23 indication that "The villages of Reka e Keqe and other villages in the
24 district of Decan were shelled from military bases in" -- and it names a
25 number of them. "And Suka e Biteshit during the whole night. Today
1 Skivan, from where the population has moved to other parts, was shelled.
2 The shelling from Boka e Zhdrelle is towards the 'Radoniqi' hydrosystem,
3 may damage the dam and so endanger the whole population of the Dukagjini
4 plain. Large Serbian forces were concentrated in town and are checking
5 all entrances and exits."
6 Was that a concern of -- that your organisation was is that these
7 Serbs were going to flood the plain by damaging the dam?
8 A. I have to say I never heard this. I actually don't think that
9 they could do it, because as far as I know, Radonjic hydrosystem was in
10 the back of the villages, that they actually didn't enter all the way
11 until the end of August.
12 Q. We have quite a few reports here --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH:
15 Q. -- which I'm not going to go through, but I'd like to ask you
16 this: Because you've had an opportunity to see these reports and obtain
17 the information on a daily basis. With regard to the Albanian civilians
18 who were killed, is the information that you've -- you've seen in that
19 regard that's contained in these reports accurate, as far as you're
20 concerned, based upon your experience?
21 A. My experience was that the report was slightly avoiding to mention
22 KLA and was slightly presenting always villagers fighting, which was not
23 quite like that. When we tried to check what -- on the ground what they
24 mentioned as abuse and torture prove -- was very often proven right and
25 never was mention in these reports anything what was happening with the
1 other -- I mean, minority at that point, Serbs. So I would say, yes, but
2 was slightly twisted into the -- the situation that was suiting that for
3 international media and creating the public opinion. Slightly. That was
4 my feeling.
5 Q. Did you know a gentleman who was a lawyer and a member of the
6 board of the CDHRF named Destan Rukiqi?
7 A. Rukiqi, yes.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: If we could turn to D186, report number 426.
9 Q. I'd like to -- to discuss with you the following. It's at the
10 bottom of page 1.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, of course, I do not know what your
12 next questions will be, but Chamber --
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry, I --
14 JUDGE ORIE: -- did not gain the impression that that -- that a
15 lot of -- going through these reports in such detail did greatly assist
16 the Chamber. But, of course, since you are going back to one now, it
17 might be different. We hope so.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH:
19 Q. You had discussed earlier on issues concerning the judicial
20 process with Mr. Emmerson. And my -- my question to you is: Is the
21 information here, as far as you know, based on your research, accurate
22 that Destan Rukiqi --
23 A. Rukiqi.
24 Q. Thank you. "A lawyer, member of the board of the CDHRF, was
25 sentenced to 60 days of imprisonment and sent to serve his prison term.
1 As Rukiqi was not allowed to examine the files on the case of his client,
2 he accused Danica Marinkovic, a judge, the role of playing policeman."
3 Are you aware of this incident?
4 A. I am aware. I think I can recollect there was this dispute. I'm
5 not aware that he was sent 16 days in prison. But I know that there was a
6 dispute. And I'm sorry to say I was not aware of that. Or maybe I was
7 then, but I can't remember now.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, if possible, we'd like to finish with
9 this witness today --
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: And as a matter of fact --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Since there are ten minutes left. I'd invite
12 you to wrap up.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'll make it ...
14 Q. And as -- as a matter of fact, what occurred with Mr. Rukiqi, if
15 we could look at 2D001180, report number 427?
16 JUDGE ORIE: Needs a number, Mr. Guy-Smith, I take it?
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: 2D001180.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be marked for identification as D202,
20 Your Honours.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Page 6, under the line of "Prishtina."
23 "On being severely tortured in the county gaol in Prishtina,
24 Destan Rukiqi, a lawyer and member of the board of the CDHRF in Prishtina,
25 was taken to hospital. His health condition is qualified as very grave."
1 Were you -- were you aware of that?
2 A. I was -- no, no, I was not aware that he was really in the
3 hospital. I was aware that there was a dispute and there was some kind of
5 Q. You had mentioned earlier that there was some difficulties, I
6 believe, with individuals having access to their families and their
7 lawyers --
8 A. Yeah.
9 Q. -- once arrested.
10 A. That's true.
11 Q. If we could take a look at 2D001209 --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Report number 429.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, I earlier said that the Chamber did
15 not feel that it's greatly assisted by the line of questioning.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry. Excuse me, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I've got French and English. I'm with now.
19 JUDGE ORIE: That we felt that we're not greatly assisted by your
20 line of questioning. Then I invited you to wrap up and said that we would
21 have ten minutes left.
22 Would you -- I mean, you are now asking for another document, to
23 find out whether quite a lot of things -- where the witness was asked
24 whether she's aware of it - sometimes she is, sometimes she is not - a lot
25 of personal knowledge seems not to be there. That's --
1 You're not to be blamed for it, Witness 28.
2 THE WITNESS: It's impossible to remember all --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Guy-Smith, would you please finish your
4 cross-examination within the next two minutes.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes.
6 Q. In terms of the information that you were receiving on a daily
7 basis from this organisation, in summary would it be fair to say that you
8 were receiving information concerning the death of Albanian citizens, the
9 attacks on villages, the abrogation of a variety of legal rights from the
10 period commencing in March through and including September?
11 A. Yes. We have been. These reports were exactly pointing to that.
12 Q. And these were reports that you relied upon in terms of making a
13 determination of where to focus your efforts concerning human rights
15 A. One of the sources that we --
16 Q. That -- I understand, one of the sources, among others.
17 A. Yep.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: With regard to one issue, Your Honour, I can ask
20 her to identify the remaining reports. I believe that of all the reports,
21 she might be in a position to identify the remaining reports, at which
22 they can receive MFI numbers and at a later point in time, because of the
23 shortness of time that exists, and then we can deal with the issue of
24 their admission at a later point in time. However you choose to deal with
1 JUDGE ORIE: Well, is there any -- what then exactly she would
2 have to identify? This being reports? I think you just took her to these
3 reports and asked the questions about it without specifically --
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, she had earlier indicated that she had
5 received the information --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: She had received the information on a daily basis
8 and on a weekly basis and recognised these reports.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, Mr. Re, would there be any dispute about
10 similar reports but then with other numbers and other information as being
11 within the knowledge of the witness when she worked at that time?
12 MR. RE: I -- I've got no idea. I've -- I have not asked the
13 witness about all these individual reports.
14 JUDGE ORIE: No.
15 MR. RE: Maybe yes, maybe no.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Did you rely on these reports during whole of your
17 time you were working in -- in Kosovo?
18 THE WITNESS: I didn't rely. I was using that as a source.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, you were using as a source for focusing your
21 THE WITNESS: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And that's -- okay. Then ...
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE ORIE: We'll later discuss, Mr. Guy-Smith, whether it --
25 these reports do assist, but one thing is for clear, that these kind of
1 reports were used by the witness to focus her attention on certain
3 Mr. Harvey --
4 That will not be -- that will not be the issue in future.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: Now but --
6 JUDGE ORIE: There might be other issues.
7 MR. GUY-SMITH: Right, there might be other issues. But I take it
8 for the time being we'll get MFI numbers for the remainder of them so
9 there's no question about which reports exist.
10 JUDGE ORIE: Would you then please inform Mr. Re as soon as
11 possible which -- what reports altogether.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: Absolutely.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. We'll see --
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: And with that I am -- with that, I am done.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you.
16 Mr. Harvey.
17 MR. HARVEY: There is one of those reports for which I would like
18 an MFI number, and that 2D001215, report number 428. While that's being
19 brought up --
20 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:
21 Q. Good afternoon, Witness 28.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Mr. Registrar, that would be?
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be D203.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And Witness 28, this gives me an opportunity to
25 tell you that Mr. Harvey is counsel for Mr. Brahimaj.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. HARVEY: That's just what I was about to tell you, Witness.
3 Q. And if we could scroll down towards the bottom of that page,
4 please. Thank you. A little bit further up. And a little further still.
5 Lovely. Thank you very much.
6 This document, again, do you recall the -- what is described at
7 the top of the document as the widespread repression and harassment
8 perpetrated by the Serbian police and other authorities in Kosovo from
9 August 2nd until August 6th, 1998?
10 A. I don't -- I don't remember that being limited from 2nd to 6th.
11 Q. I'm -- I'm sure.
12 A. I think that middle July there was attempt of Serbian forces to
13 suppress KLA existence in different villages. By then I think more than
14 40 per cent of territory was already controlled by KLA, as far as I can
15 understand in the villages.
16 So really what was happening, they would start pushing and
17 bombarding the village by village. Refugees fleeing to the next -- the
18 next municipality till we reached the point of real catastrophic
19 situations. But I don't remember it being from between -- between 2nd to
20 6th. Maybe just for this municipality that was that situation ongoing.
21 Q. Thank you for that. I wanted just to focus on the period covered
22 by this report. And we see at the -- towards the bottom of the page here,
23 it says:
24 "On July 4th to 5th," -- and I think you can probably agree with
25 me that this must be a typographical error in the report. They were in
1 fact speaking of the -- the August period here.
2 A. Mm-hm.
3 Q. So that should read "August 4th to 5th."
4 A. Mm-hm.
5 Q. And it lists a number of people who were killed in Jabllanice e
6 Dushkajes, near Decan.
7 I don't know whether any of these names are familiar to you, but
8 one of the factors that one does notice looking at this aspect of the
9 report is the extreme age of the victims.
10 I don't know if you have any knowledge at all of my client,
11 Lahi Brahimaj. Do you?
12 A. No.
13 Q. So -- so you wouldn't be able to help on whether the Aze Ibrahimaj
14 and the Zize Zekaj who are mentioned here are respectively his mother and
15 grandmother [Realtime transcript read in error "brother"]?
16 A. No, I do not.
17 Q. In relation then to Jabllanice which you do mention in paragraph
18 28 -- and I'm done with this document for now, thank you.
19 In relation to paragraph 28 of your -- your 92 ter statement, you
20 refer to a conversation that you had with an American TV crew.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And their investigations in Jabllanice where they found the local
23 KLA commander who had a long white beard.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. I think it's fairly evident that my client, try as he might, would
1 have difficulty growing a long white beard. I'm not asking you to respond
2 to that observation.
3 A. But I might also -- do you mind if I interrupt something about
5 Q. Well, may I -- may I finish my question first and then by all
6 means add any comment that seems to you to be helpful.
7 I wanted to ask you, since this description in fact fits that of a
8 gentleman known as Sadri Zeneli, did you ever come-- become aware of Sadri
9 Zeneli as being the local commander in Jabllanice?
10 A. No, I didn't.
11 Q. Now, by all means if you wish to add anything in relation to
13 A. Maybe it's interesting -- is it open session? Yeah? Yeah?
14 Yeah, maybe it's interesting to --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Is this to say that you would like to remain in open
16 session or that you would rather return --
17 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think it should remain, yeah.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
19 THE WITNESS: It would be interesting to know that me and the
20 researcher that was mentioned earlier had been in May that year
21 interviewing two people, a very old couple, Serbs, but who -- very
22 difficulty talk Serbian. They were from Jablanica and already completely
23 assimilated. And they told us that in January 1998 they've been ordered
24 to leave Jablanica by unknown people they'd never seen before. They'd
25 never had children and never were interested to actually leave that place.
1 Their neighbours tried to protect them for -- for months. And then in the
2 end the neighbours decided that they cannot protect them, so they put then
3 flour and sugar on the truck and sent them.
4 So we found them in May in Pec in the refugee centre. But that's
5 the first time that I heard aside of this TV crew testimony about
6 Jablanica and digging the trenches and seeing unknown faces in January
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
9 Do you have any further questions?
10 MR. HARVEY: I have no further questions. I would just like to
11 note a correction at page 110, line 24. The word should read
12 "grandmother," not brother. But thank you very much.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Harvey.
14 Mr. Re, is there any need -- also looking at the clock, so if
15 there's -- we have to decide whether we would ask the witness to come back
16 tomorrow morning or whether we can finish. But then we can't ask the
17 interpreters and technicians and transcribers to spend more than two or
18 three minutes.
19 MR. RE: It will probably take me about ten minutes.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's too much for today.
21 Unfortunately, then we'll have to adjourn until tomorrow.
22 I am -- I would have preferred not to ask you to come back
23 tomorrow, but unfortunately we have not finished yet. It will not take
24 much time. I don't know -- it will be in the morning. So I don't know
25 whether any travel arrangements have been made already.
1 But I again would like to instruct you that you should not speak
2 with anyone about the testimony either given already or still to be given.
3 We'd like to see you back tomorrow morning at 9.00 in this -- not in this
4 same courtroom.
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE ORIE: In Courtroom II. And it will not take long tomorrow
8 We stand adjourned until tomorrow, the 6th of November, 9.00,
9 Courtroom II.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.07 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 6th day of
12 November, 2007, at 9.00 a.m.