1 Monday, 12 November 2007
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.23 p.m.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, would you please call the case.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you and good afternoon, Your Honours. This
7 is case number IT-04-84-T, the Prosecutor versus Ramush Haradinaj et al.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 Mr. Di Fazio, are you ready to call your next witness, which, as
10 far as I understand, will be Witness 23, who will testify through
11 videolink and where protective measures were granted, pseudonym, face, and
12 voice distortion.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours. I am ready. And
14 I've prepared a summary of her testimony which I can read onto the record
15 if you wish me to.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, we could do that, but I -- as a matter of fact,
17 I -- I'd prefer first to use the videolink, which is functioning at this
18 moment. So that's -- you never know what happens in that respect.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: I'm in Your Honours' hands, in the Trial Chamber's
20 hands. I'm more than happy to proceed.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Could we first verify whether the videolink is
23 The representative of the Registry in the videolink that, is in
24 (redacted). Could you, first of all, tell us whether you can hear us and
25 whether you can see us.
1 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Good afternoon, Your Honours. We
2 can hear you and see you perfectly.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Could you tell us who are present in the room at this
5 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] There is the technician, the
6 witness, who is sitting beside me, and I will bring him in front of the
7 Chamber when you ask me to, and myself, Yaiza Alvarez Reyes, from the
9 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
10 Then could you please bring in the Witness 23.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE ORIE: Good afternoon, Witness 23.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Can you hear me in a language you understand?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 23, we will not use your own name. We will
17 call you "Witness 23" because protective measures have been granted in
18 respect of you. That means that we'll call you "Witness 23" and not use
19 your own name; your face will not be seen by the outside world; neither
20 could your voice be heard by the outside world; however, the content of
21 your testimony is public.
22 Have you understood this?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and
25 Evidence require you to make --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 JUDGE ORIE: -- a solemn declaration that you will speak the
3 truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I see that the text is
4 now handed out to you. I would like to invite you to make that solemn
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will tell
7 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you very much, Witness 23.
9 You will first be examined by Mr. Di Fazio, who is counsel for the
10 Prosecution. But before he starts, just allow me one second with the
12 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please -- please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
14 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you, Your Honours.
15 WITNESS: WITNESS SST7/23
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 [Witness testified via videolink]
18 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I'd like to have produced
19 to the witness her statement, which I understand is 65 ter 2167, which I
20 believe is the Albanian signed version but is also accompanied by an
21 English translation. And that's what I'd like to have shown to the
22 witness, please.
23 JUDGE ORIE: And I take it that it needs a number?
24 MR. DI FAZIO: It will need, because -- because I'm going to ask
25 for it to be admitted into evidence --
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: -- under Rule 92 ter.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, that would be?
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be P1221, under seal.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Under seal and marked for identification
6 as matters stand now.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
8 Examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
9 Q. Thank you. Witness, I understand that you now have your statement
10 in front of you. Would you please just look at it and tell us if you see
11 your signature on that statement.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And --
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Thank you. Witness, does -- does that statement contain material
16 that you would repeat, would tell us about again, if you were to be asked
17 questions about what's contained in that statement?
18 Or perhaps I can make my question a little more understandable by
19 asking you this: If I was to ask you questions about all of the things
20 that are mentioned in that statement, would you give the same answers?
21 A. Yes, exactly what I have said before.
22 Q. Thank you, Witness. And is the statement, as far as you're aware,
23 true and accurate to the best of your ability, as far as you're
25 A. Yes, what I've said is true.
1 MR. DI FAZIO: And if Your Honours please, I'll make the formal
2 application it that be admitted into evidence under the provisions of 92
4 JUDGE ORIE: Before the Chamber will give a decision on that,
5 Mr. Di Fazio, usually we start with the pseudonym sheet, if a witness
6 testifies under pseudonym.
7 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Would there be --
9 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, I -- I -- Your Honour is absolutely correct.
10 It was my mistake --
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
12 MR. DI FAZIO: -- and I omitted to deal with that first. And I'll
13 deal with that now, if I may.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, that's the usual order. Please proceed.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: I apologise for that.
16 I'd like the witness to have placed in front of her 65 ter 02164,
18 Q. Witness, that sheet contains some personal details about you.
19 Could you look at that and tell us if those personal details are correct.
20 A. Yes. They are accurate.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I seek to tender that under
24 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, first of all, an MFI number for this
25 would be?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 1222, under seal.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
3 Any objections against admission of pseudonym sheet and/or 92 ter
5 I see nodding three times "no"; therefore, 1221 and 1222 are
6 admitted into evidence.
7 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
9 Q. Witness, you -- you describe an episode in your statement where --
10 whereby you and your husband were stopped at a place called Black Stone
11 and you then describe events, things that happened there. You say that
12 you were in your -- your car, your family car, and that you were pulled
13 over and then you were questioned in your parked car for about two and a
14 half hours or -- or questioned whilst your car was parked for about two
15 and a half hours.
16 Then you say that about two and a half hours later you hear the
17 noise of shooting and you hear another car coming along the road from
18 Gjakova. Did you ever actually lay eyes upon this other car? Did you
19 ever actually see the other car?
20 A. We were going to our family's house with my husband and my
21 children. We went up until Dollova, the name of the village, and we were
22 stopped at Black Stone, as I have written. And -- and the road was full
23 of potholes and we were asked to stop. There were some 10, 15 people. To
24 me they seemed like 100. And we were stopped for about two hours, as you
25 said, as -- as I say in my statement.
1 After two hours, there was a car from Gjakova that came, but we --
2 we didn't see -- I just saw it with the corner of my eye.
3 Q. Was that car that you saw with the corner of your eye stopped
5 A. No, no. We -- we were taken to a field, to some trees in Black
6 Stone. We -- we couldn't see it. We -- we were, together with the
7 children and my husband, we were taken to this field.
8 Q. Okay. Well, then you say in your -- your statement: "After the
9 incident, we had to stay for two hours waiting in the car." Then you and
10 your husband, one of your children were ordered to jump in another car --
11 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, Mr. Harvey.
13 MR. HARVEY: At this point, I would object to the way in which the
14 witness is being led. At this stage, what Mr. Di Fazio essentially is
15 doing is reading out her statement to her and asking her to confirm it.
16 There seems to be little point in that exercise.
17 JUDGE ORIE: I do not know, as a matter of fact, whether
18 Mr. Di Fazio is seeking that.
19 MR. DI FAZIO: That's exactly what I'm not seeking to do.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I thought that Mr. Di Fazio was repeating
21 portions of what is now in evidence as the statement of the witness and
22 then focus on additional information from -- that's at least what I would
23 expect him to do.
24 MR. DI FAZIO: That's exactly right. I'm just laying the
25 groundwork for my eventual question.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. So that there's no --
2 MR. DI FAZIO: And, of course, it's not --
3 JUDGE ORIE: Let's -- let's ask Mr. Di Fazio to continue. And if
4 there comes a question which is just confirmation, then it's superfluous,
5 because the witness has already confirmed that the statement is correct.
6 And if there's any new question, then we can then see whether by
7 introducing the matter in this way the question becomes leading or whether
8 it's just giving the right context for the next question to follow.
9 MR. HARVEY: Well, in my submission, it is already leading. But I
10 am bound by your observations, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Well, I haven't heard the -- I haven't heard --
12 MR. HARVEY: Haven't heard a question yet. Exactly.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Well, no, but of course, you can take a witness to
14 previous -- to portions of the statement. It, of course, very much
15 depends on what question then follows.
16 Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
17 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
18 Q. In your statement, you say that after you'd been there at this
19 location for some time, you and your husband and your children were
20 ordered to jump in a -- in another car together with a KLA soldier.
21 Do you know or can you offer the Trial Chamber any information as
22 to where that other car came from? Did you see where it came from? Do
23 you have any idea about how it got there?
24 A. The car which arrived there -- and there was a soldier there. I
25 didn't know him. It came from Gjakova and shots were fired. And they
1 took us to the corner. And then me and my husband, we were asked to jump
2 into that new car and the children remained in our Mercedes. It was
3 driven by one of the soldiers, and we were in the car that arrived. And
4 then we were driven towards Kraljane or somewhere.
5 Q. Okay. Having read your answer, is this -- I want to be sure that
6 I understand your evidence correctly. Are you saying or do you say that
7 you and your husband were asked to jump into the new car, that car being
8 the car that had come from Gjakova, when shots were fired?
9 A. Yes, that's -- that's correct. That's correct. When they -- when
10 they fired, then the -- the car was brought there. I -- I didn't know
11 whose car it was and both me and my -- my husband were taken into it, and
12 in that car we were taken away.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, could I --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And one -- one child was also with
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 23, you just said that that car came from
17 Gjakova and that shots were fired. Did you mean to say that it came from
18 the direction of Gjakova, or do you have any special knowledge what --
19 that allows you to tell us that the car actually came from Gjakova? So
20 from the direction or any additional information.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As -- as the soldier said there, "We
22 came from Gjakova," -- from Gjakova he came. And then the -- the car
23 there -- there was no driver in there and both me, my husband, and one
24 child jumped into that car. The rest of the children remained in our
25 Mercedes. And then we continued to go in the direction where they -- the
1 soldiers took us.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
3 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
4 Q. Can you tell us -- as you continued in the direction to where the
5 soldiers took you, can you tell the Trial Chamber what happened to your
6 car, your family car? Did it stay there or -- or what happened to it?
7 A. Our car -- for the duration that we were stopped, for two hours,
8 we were inside our car, my husband, myself, and the children. But then
9 when -- when we moved on, a soldier got -- got into our car and although
10 my husband said that "I will drive my car," -- he said, "No, I will drive
11 that." And he drove that one and another soldier drove the other car.
12 And then we continued our way, in this way.
13 Q. All right. Well, just think about the question. It's very
14 simple, actually. It's a very, very simple little question that I want to
15 know, and that's this: You say you drove in the other car and you went to
16 the place that you -- we know you were dropped off at.
17 Now, on the way from the place where you had been stopped to the
18 place where you were dropped off at, what happened to your -- your -- your
19 family car?
20 A. When we were -- were taken, well, they dropped us off to my family
21 house's door. In our car, there were the children; whereas, in the other
22 car, it was me, my husband, and one child. I -- I told them that
23 "Let's -- let's open the main gate -- the main gates so that we can get
24 our car into the courtyard," but I was told, "No, no, your husband will --
25 will bring the car." But then we don't know -- I don't know where the car
1 is and I have -- I never saw my husband.
2 Q. All right. Okay. Thank you. That's clear now.
3 So when you were dropped off at your -- when you were dropped off,
4 both cars were there, so both cars had left the place called Black Stone
5 and gone to the place where you were dropped off; correct?
6 A. Yes, that's correct.
7 Q. Okay. Now I want you to think about the people who were in the
8 other car, in your -- in your family car. I want you to think back and
9 think of the people who were in it and tell the Trial Chamber, if you can
10 recall, who was in that car. And I mean every single person who was in
11 that car, whether they're related to you or not. You tell us what you can
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, would you please be more precise as
14 what -- what part of the episode you're talking about, because what we
15 heard until now - at least, that's how I understood the -- the statement
16 of the witness - is that a car driven by a KLA soldier, as she says, with
17 the children in it, perhaps apart from the youngest one, went to the
18 family home, where the children were then left off that car.
19 So are you talking about being stopped to the family house, or are
20 you asking about what then followed? Because the first part seems to be
21 clear from the -- from the statement.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes.
23 Q. All right. Well, let me -- let me ask you this: When you arrived
24 at your relative's house and you were dropped off, who was in your family
25 car? Who had travelled in your family car from that place called Black
2 A. It was a KLA soldier. A KLA soldier. I don't know who he was.
3 So he drove our car, and the other car was also driven by a soldier. So
4 both cars were driven by soldiers. And we were dropped off in my family's
6 Q. Okay. I'm really trying to find out the -- get a full and clear
7 idea of all of the occupants, each and every occupant --
8 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, let's try to do it a bit more focused.
9 Could you tell us: In your Mercedes car driven by a KLA soldier,
10 who else were in that car? I think in your statement you say your
11 children. Were all of your children in that car?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, four -- four children. The
13 fifth was with us. And I was pregnant.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Let me -- let me stop you --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We continued.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Let me stop you there. One KLA soldier in the
17 Mercedes, four children. Any other person in that car?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. There wasn't anyone else.
21 MR. DI FAZIO:
22 Q. And now turn your attention to your car, the car that you --
23 sorry, not your car but, rather, the car you -- you travelled in on the
24 way from Black Stone to the place where you were dropped off. Tell the
25 Trial Chamber, during that trip who exactly -- I want to know each and
1 every person who was in the car in which you were traveling.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Could we perhaps also focus this question,
3 Mr. Di Fazio.
4 Witness 23, I think you told us already that you and your husband
5 and one of your children was taken in that other car that had arrived.
6 Now, that car was driven, as you just told us, by a KLA soldier. Was
7 there anyone else in that car apart from the driver - that is, the KLA
8 soldier - you, and your husband, and one of your children?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, there wasn't anyone else apart
10 from the driver, myself, my husband. So both in our family car there was
11 a soldier driving and the children; and in the other car, it was a soldier
12 driving, myself, my husband, and the child.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
14 MR. DI FAZIO:
15 Q. After -- after you were dropped off at your relatives' house, did
16 you see your -- your car, your family car, leaving your -- the area of
17 your relatives' house?
18 A. For as long as I remained there, every day it was in the village.
19 And when I saw it, I -- my heart ached. And when I -- when I came to my
20 husband's house, I -- I never saw it again.
21 Q. Now, I'm not talking about days -- the days afterwards. I'm just
22 talking about one very simple little period of time. Just that period of
23 time immediately after you arrived at your relatives' house and you were
24 dropped off.
25 In your statement, you say that they then left the village where
1 you were dropped off and you didn't see your husband for five weeks. Now,
2 when they actually -- actually drove off, having dropped you off, at your
3 relatives' house in the Mercedes, do you know who was in the car then,
4 when they're just driving away?
5 A. There was a soldier from Jabllanice, but I don't know more than
6 that. They left us there and they continued their journey onwards to
7 Jabllanice, both our car and my husband. And I -- I didn't see my husband
8 for five weeks; whereas, the car, I never saw it again.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. When you say, "They left us there and they
10 continued their journey onwards to Jabllanice," both your car and your
11 husband, who was in the car when you last saw them driving off like that?
12 Who was in there? I want to know the names of the -- or not the names but
13 the -- the people who were in the car at that stage.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, let's take it one by one. Let's talk
15 about the --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Two soldiers. Only them.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Could we take it car by car; that is, first the
18 Mercedes, the family Mercedes.
19 When they left from where your family lives, who was in your
20 Mercedes? Who was driving?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Those two soldiers, and nobody else
22 was there.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Now --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So it was one soldier driving one
25 car and the other soldier driving the other, where my husband was. So
1 apart from these two soldiers, there was nobody else. As to who they
2 were, I don't know their names or anything. I don't know.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Di Fazio.
4 MR. DI FAZIO:
5 Q. Do you know the owner of the other car?
6 A. No. Honestly, I don't. And I didn't want to know, for that
8 Q. All right. You -- later in -- in your statement, you describe --
9 let me withdraw that question.
10 MR. DI FAZIO: I would like to show the witness a photograph, if
11 Your Honours please.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Should that be under seal or can it be displayed?
13 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't think -- I don't think it need -- the photo
14 itself needs to be under seal.
15 JUDGE ORIE: No. But, of course, if the question is about what it
16 might reveal, then ...
17 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't think so. It's just --
18 JUDGE ORIE: So even the combination of the photo and the question
19 would not --
20 MR. DI FAZIO: I don't think so.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Then could you give the number to Mr. Registrar.
22 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes. It's D118.
23 Q. Witness, please look at that photograph and can you tell us if you
24 have ever been to the place that's shown in that photograph.
25 A. I've been there. Five weeks after my husband was taken away, I
1 was taken here and we sat under the shade of this tree. It was myself, my
2 father-in-law, and a cousin. It was exactly here, under this shadow,
3 under this shade.
4 Q. Okay. Thank you. And is that the tree you can see in the
5 foreground of the photograph slightly to the left?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. This is where we sat for half an hour.
9 Q. And -- yes. In your statement, you say: "We met my husband on
10 the yard to the prison and we were allowed to see him." When you talk
11 about "the yard to the prison," is that yard that you can see in the
12 photograph the yard that you are talking of?
13 A. Yes, exactly.
14 Q. And just to finish up, just a few questions about your husband
15 after he was -- he got out of that place. In your statement, you say that
16 he went immediately to see a doctor after his -- after he returned home.
17 Did you go with him or did he go by himself?
18 A. No, he went by himself to the doctor. He went together with his
19 father. The doctor saw him, and from that day on he's been suffering a
20 lot. He is in a lot of pain.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. He's been in pain ever since.
23 Q. Thank you. You -- finally, you just -- you say in your statement
24 that he -- he told you he'd been beaten, and it was obvious to you that
25 that was true because you could see it all over his body. What precisely
1 could you see over his body when he returned after leaving that place?
2 A. Well, I did not recognise him when I saw him. He was beaten black
3 and blue. His arm was broken, his left -- his left arm, here at the
4 wrist, and he was also bruised all over his body. But God willing he
5 survived. I thank God for that.
6 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you very much for answering my questions.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 23, at a later stage we'll read for the
8 public the short content of the whole of your statement, but at this
9 moment you'll first be cross-examined by Mr. Harvey, who's counsel for
10 Mr. Brahimaj.
11 Mr. Harvey, you may proceed.
12 Cross-examination by Mr. Harvey:
13 Q. Good afternoon, Witness 23. Before your car was stopped on the
14 road to Gjakova, you first went to a police roadblock; is that correct?
15 A. Yes. We were driving when we were stopped in Dollova, in -- at
16 the check-point in Dollova. And they told us, "You cannot go any
17 further." They said, "Why are you risking your family?" So we turned
18 back to go back home.
19 Q. Did your husband appear to know the officers who stopped you at
21 A. No. No, he didn't know any one of them. He never saw them
22 before. It's just like today, when policemen stop you on the road; you
23 don't know them.
24 Q. And when you were stopped by the 10 to 15 men, were they all in
25 uniform? I'm talking now about the 10 to 15 men who you say were from the
2 A. Some of them, yes. Some of them, no.
3 Q. You said that they kept you --
4 A. Some of them were in uniform, yes.
5 Q. Thank you. You said they kept you for about two hours asking all
6 kinds of questions. Do you recall what kinds of questions they asked?
7 Particularly, did they ask your husband about the gun that he was
9 A. Yes, there were questions like that.
10 Q. Do -- do you remember them asking about photographs that he had in
11 the car? Photographs of himself with police officers.
12 A. No, it wasn't like that, with an officer. It was his friend, an
13 Albanian with him.
14 Q. An Albanian police --
15 A. Not an officer, no.
16 Q. Perhaps the translation is -- is an issue here. I should use
17 another word.
18 It was an Albanian policeman; is that correct?
19 A. Yes, Albanian policeman was in the photograph with him. But
20 everybody takes photographs like that.
21 Q. Did your -- did they ask your husband to give them the gun?
22 A. Yes. And when they asked him to give them the gun, he had to give
23 it to them. He had a licence for it, but anyway, he gave it to them. He
24 didn't have it to kill anyone. He just had it for self-protection.
25 Q. How long had he had that gun, to your knowledge?
1 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you. I didn't pay attention to that.
2 Q. Well, had he always had a gun, to your knowledge?
3 A. No, not always. His father had it first, and after his father he
4 kept it.
5 Q. And did he always carry it with him when he travelled around?
6 A. Well, he might have. I don't know how to explain. The situation
7 exacerbated, so it is possible that he had it on him, but to protect
9 Q. Did he ever tell you that he had any enemies that he was concerned
11 A. No, he never told me. And he did not have any enemies. He never
12 did ill to anybody, so he had no reason to have enemies. He never killed
13 anyone. He didn't -- never harmed anyone. So why should he have enemies?
11 Page 10542 redacted.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 10544-10548 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're in back in open session.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
15 Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
16 MR. HARVEY: Thank you, Your Honours.
17 Q. Just to recap for the record, Witness, you've told us that you had
18 seen your family car during the three or four days that you remained in
19 the village where your family lived. You saw it there every day.
20 And then you've just told us that when you went to see your
21 husband in Jabllanice, it was one week before he finally came home. And
22 we've just covered the point where you told us that when you first met up
23 with him, you shook hands and you asked him how he was.
24 Now, what did he answer to that question about how he was?
25 A. So after five weeks that I hadn't seen him, I met him. I went
1 there with my two little children. And the children did not recognise
2 him. We stayed there in that shade. We shook hands. I asked him, "How
3 are you?" And -- and -- and I -- I didn't hear him say a word and I
4 didn't say anything. But I was -- I was happy to see him alive.
5 Q. It was, of course, summer and presumably quite warm. Do you
6 recall what he was wearing on the upper part of his body?
7 A. A shirt, a black jacket, his trousers. I have forgotten,
8 actually. It's a long time. But this is all I know.
9 Q. Do you remember whether he had rolled up his sleeves, if -- if his
10 arms were bare?
11 A. No. It was a short-sleeved shirt, I think.
12 Q. So you think that his arms were bare, in that case. Yes?
13 A. I don't know what to say. He was in short sleeves. But I've
15 Q. Well, if he was in short sleeves, did you see any sign of bruising
16 on his face or on any other part of his body at that time?
17 A. No, I couldn't see it. I don't want to lie. What I haven't seen,
18 I cannot say. I -- I didn't see any signs because he was wearing a jacket
20 After he left that place, then the doctor examined him. And --
21 and when I saw him, it was only his soul which was intact. The rest
22 was -- he was completely disfigured. How a human being could -- could be
23 done like that ...
24 Q. Well, you said you don't want to say anything that isn't true.
25 When you say, "He was completely disfigured," what exactly do you mean by
1 that? His face was disfigured?
2 A. I didn't say "his face." He was so weak, he felt so weak after
3 all that, you could -- you could just blow at him and he would -- would go
5 Q. Well, perhaps we have a -- an issue in translation. I don't want
6 to focus on the word "disfigured" if it isn't -- if it isn't the right
8 He -- had he lost a lot of weight? Is that what you're saying?
9 A. Yes. Yes.
10 Q. But --
11 A. He'd lost a lot of weight.
12 Q. Is there any other way in which you mean the word "disfigured"
13 apart from the fact that he had lost a lot of weight?
14 A. He had lost weight. He -- too thin. He -- he was so thin, his
15 children did not even recognise him. And they were saying, "He is not our
16 father," because before those five weeks, he was in good health. And
17 after those five weeks, the children did not recognise him. He -- he was
18 so -- so thin and in -- in a bad state.
19 Q. Who was the doctor that he went to see? Do you recall?
20 A. I don't know, because I wasn't there with him and I don't know.
21 I -- I didn't have time to go with him, because I had to look after the
22 children, so he went there with his father.
23 Q. Had your husband ever had any broken bones before this time when
24 he was away in Jabllanice? Had he ever had any broken bones, to your
1 A. No, I don't know him having any broken bones or hurt bones.
6 Q. You've told us that he went immediately to see a doctor and to
7 take an x-ray of his arm. Do you recall whether he went the very same day
8 when he came home from Jabllanice or whether he waited a few days, or how
9 was it?
10 A. Not even two days but nine years have passed. So two days after
11 he left, photographs were taken. And -- and since that day, he is taking
12 medicines because he's in pain and he doesn't feel good at all.
13 Q. Did he bring the x-rays home with him?
14 A. Yes. Yes, he brought it home. And that showed that his left arm
15 was broken.
16 Q. Is the x-ray still at home today?
17 A. Maybe it is. We haven't thrown it away. We -- we kept them.
18 Q. So if the Tribunal asked you to produce that x-ray, would you be
19 willing to go home and look for it and provide it to the Tribunal, please?
20 A. Do you mean today? Today or on another day?
21 Q. Not -- not today but at some time in the near future.
22 A. Yes. My husband may bring it, if you want it. He could have it.
23 And he -- he had it until the moment he was making statements, but now I
24 don't know. It should be at home.
25 Q. Well, when you say, "He had it until the moment he began making
1 statements," do you know if he showed it to any of the people who
2 interviewed him from the Office of the Prosecutor?
3 A. As far as I know, yes, he showed it to them.
4 Q. When you were interviewed by Mr. Haverinen from the Office of the
5 Prosecutor, that took place in your own home, didn't it?
6 A. The statement that we have given?
7 Q. You say, "The statement that we have given." Yes, you and your
8 husband were both interviewed on the same day by Mr. Haverinen and you
9 both gave him statements, didn't you?
10 A. Yes. Yes, we've done that.
11 Q. Were you present when your husband was being interviewed?
12 A. We -- when they came, we -- we turned up there to respond to their
13 questions and told them the things they wanted to know.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey, the question is -- "being present" could
15 be more precise.
16 MR. HARVEY: Yes.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Because otherwise we might get a lot of --
18 Well, perhaps I'll ask the witness: Witness 23, when your husband
19 gave that interview to Mr. Haverinen, were you in the same room at that
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. No, it was one at a time.
22 JUDGE ORIE: And when you were interviewed by Mr. Haverinen, was
23 your husband in that same room?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No, he wasn't there. Because
25 when we gave statements, we gave them separately. Not both at the same
2 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
3 I'm also looking at the clock. I don't know how much time you'd
4 still need. We are close to one hour and a half.
5 MR. HARVEY: I'm almost done.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Please proceed.
7 MR. HARVEY:
8 Q. Witness, if you could just help us a little bit with the process
9 of statement-taking. Mr. Haverinen came to your house where -- and both
10 you and your husband were there when he came. That's correct, isn't it?
11 A. Both me and my husband, we were in the house, but -- but we gave
12 statements not in the same place. So he gave his own statement, and then
13 I gave mine separately, but not in the same place.
14 Q. I understand. But was there -- before you actually came to give
15 the formal statement, was there a period of time when you, your husband,
16 and Mr. Haverinen, together with an interpreter, sat around and talked
17 generally about what it was that the -- that Mr. Haverinen was interested
18 in learning from you both?
19 A. Well, I actually don't know who Haverinen is.
20 Q. The -- the investigator from the -- the Office of the Prosecutor.
21 A. Yes. When -- when he came, we sat together with my husband and we
23 Q. And for approximately how long did you chat and what was it you
24 chatted about?
25 A. I -- I'm actually unclear about the question that you're asking.
1 I -- I don't know Mr. Haverinen, who that is. But when we gave our
2 statements, that happened separately. And we did not talk with --
3 together with my husband, but it was separately.
4 Q. But my question is: Before you actually started to give your
5 statement, was there a time when the man who took your statement sat for a
6 while with you and your husband and talked about the case in general?
7 A. No, no. This is what I wanted to be clear about.
8 Q. Very well. When your husband came to The Hague to testify in the
9 beginning of July or the end of June, did you remain behind in Kosovo or
10 did you come with him?
11 A. I stayed with the children in Kosovo. I did not come with him
13 Q. Do you know from your own knowledge from talking with your husband
14 that before coming to -- here to The Hague, he went first to Jagodina?
15 A. No, I don't know and I was not interested to know.
16 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please, I -- I might --
17 JUDGE ORIE: If you -- one of the things that came into my mind -
18 I don't know whether it's the same - that, Mr. Harvey, you see how easily
19 small mistakes slip in. End of May, early June is not the same as late
20 June, early July.
21 I have the testimony of the witness' husband recorded on the 31st
22 of May, 1st of June, 4th of June.
23 MR. HARVEY: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE ORIE: There you see -- you see how easily timing mistakes
25 slip in.
1 Please proceed.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: If Your Honours please.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 MR. DI FAZIO: There was that issue. But in -- in addition, I'm
5 not sure if the -- if what Mr. -- I don't object to the question, but it's
6 not clear from the question whether Mr. Harvey was asking whether her
7 husband had been to that place immediately prior to testifying or had in
8 the distant past or at some point in the past. So I think that that
9 should be specified so that the witness is clear.
10 MR. HARVEY: I'm happy to clarify that.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Please proceed, Mr. Harvey.
12 MR. HARVEY:
13 Q. Witness 23, I -- I misspoke when I talked about the end of June,
14 beginning of July. In fact, it was the end of May, beginning of June when
15 your husband came to The Hague, wasn't it?
16 A. Yes, that's correct.
17 Q. And before he came, in the week or two weeks before coming to The
18 Hague, do you know whether he went to Jagodina?
19 A. I don't know, honestly, before he came here.
20 Q. Do you know whether in general he has been to Jagodina on a number
21 of occasions?
22 A. No. I -- I don't know. You know that.
23 Q. And finally, Witness, in the period after your husband returned
24 home, towards the end of July of 1998, did he have visitors come to the
25 house to discuss with him what had happened during his time in Jablanica?
1 A. No, nobody came. They -- they -- people came to come to ask for
2 his help. It was just for -- for the harvest season. And he told them
3 that he was busy with the harvest, and -- and then together with his
4 father, told them that he would go there the next day.
5 Q. I'm sorry, told them he would go where the next day?
6 A. When they came to ask him to go to Bec, to the headquarters
7 somewhere. That was after he was released from there, after some time.
8 Q. And are you talking, therefore, about people from the MUP or SUP
9 coming to your house to ask him to go to their headquarters?
10 A. No, no, some soldiers, Albanian soldiers. And they asked, "Where
11 is your husband?" His father said, "He's harvesting -- the combine." And
12 when he came home with the combine, they told him they wanted him to
13 report to Bec. There was some headquarter there. I don't know.
14 He went there together with his father the next day, because he
15 couldn't go the very same day.
16 Q. Were the people who came members of KFOR?
17 A. No, they were Albanians. I -- we didn't know them.
18 Q. Well, apart from that one occasion, did anybody come from MUP or
19 SUP to see your husband after he was -- after he came home from
21 A. No, no, not -- not from SUP or MUP or anywhere. We did not report
22 to anyone. And since then, we never saw anyone, apart from the Albanian
23 soldiers who came and wanted him to go to Bec, where the headquarters
24 were. And he told them that "I have got to -- to harvest the grains with
25 my combine and I'm busy, but I will come and report the next day." And
1 the -- the following day, together with his father, they went there.
2 Q. And do you say that your husband never told you that he discussed
3 what had happened to him in Jabllanice with Sreten Camovic?
4 A. No, he didn't say anything. I don't know. And I don't want to
6 MR. HARVEY: Thank you. No further questions.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio.
8 MR. DI FAZIO: One -- one question, if I may, in re-examination,
9 unless Your Honours, of course --
10 JUDGE ORIE: Well, first I don't know whether other Defence
11 counsel want to --
12 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, I'm sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: No need to question.
14 But I would have one question seeking clarification.
15 Questioned by the Court:
16 JUDGE ORIE: Witness 23, you told us when being examined by
17 Mr. Di Fazio, you said -- and I think you were telling us about the moment
18 after your husband had returned. You said, "Well, I did not recognise him
19 when I saw him. He was beaten black and blue. His arm was broken, his
20 left arm, here at the wrist, and he was also bruised all over his body.
21 But God willing, he survived."
22 Now, when cross-examined by Mr. Harvey, you said the following,
23 and you were telling us about when you visited your husband in Jablanica.
24 You said: "Well, if he was in short sleeves" -- that was the question --
25 "did you see any sign of bruising on his face or on any -- any other part
1 of his body at that time?"
2 Then you said: "No, I couldn't see it. I don't want to lie.
3 What I haven't seen, I cannot say. I didn't see any signs, because he was
4 wearing a jacket too."
5 Now, you described your husband coming home as black and blue,
6 bruises all over his body. And when asked about when you visited him, you
7 say, "I didn't see any signs." Was your husband quite different, as far
8 as bruises are concerned, when he returned home compared to when you saw
9 him one week before in Jablanica?
10 A. I -- I only could see his face, but -- but not the body. But then
11 five -- five weeks after, he was a different person. And I thought, Thank
12 God that he's alive. He -- he was in a -- in a very bad way. He was very
13 thin. He was withered.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, when he returned home, did he have bruises
15 or was he black and blue in his face as well or just on the other parts of
16 his body?
17 A. Not on the face. On his body, yes. No, there were no signs on
18 his face. But in -- in his body, yes. Since he's in pain, he's got --
19 his body aches all over. He hasn't seen good days since.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you for that answer.
21 Mr. Di Fazio, you would have -- if it's one question, we could --
22 MR. DI FAZIO: One question.
23 JUDGE ORIE: -- then we could try to finish the witness before the
24 break, with the indulgence and the patience of the interpreters,
25 technicians, and all others, transcribers.
1 Mr. Di Fazio.
2 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Di Fazio:
4 Q. In cross-examination, you said that after your -- after his
5 release, you saw some Albanian soldiers who wanted him to come to -- to go
6 to -- to Bec, where the headquarters were. Were those soldiers members of
7 the KLA?
8 A. Yes, of the KLA. There were no other ones. Of the KLA. They
9 spoke Albanian. They asked my father-in-law and me whether my husband was
10 there, and we told them that, no, he was out in the fields with the
11 combine harvester. But they were going towards him and he was coming in
12 at that time and they asked him to go to Bec, but he said, "I cannot come
13 today. I have to harvest the wheat." So he went the next day together
14 with his father.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 JUDGE ORIE: Have the questions of the Bench or Mr. Di Fazio
17 raised any need for further examination?
18 If not, Witness 23, this concludes your testimony in this court.
19 I would like to thank you very much for answering questions of both the
20 parties and the Bench, and I hope that you'll be safe home again soon.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. HARVEY: Your Honours.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
24 MR. HARVEY: I apologise.
25 JUDGE ORIE: The x-rays?
1 MR. HARVEY: Yes.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I have -- there's one additional matter we'd
3 like to raise, Witness 23; that is, about -- you said you have kept the
4 x-rays. If you would go home, would you know where to find them? In the
5 kitchen or in the living room or one of the bedrooms? Do you know where
6 they are?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if I find them, I will bring
8 them to you. Because we had it until very recently at home together with
9 all other documents. The x-rays were together with all of them and the
10 doctor's letter and photographs.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. The representative of the Registry at the
12 location of the videolink is invited to take care that if the witness has
13 found anything, that she knows how to communicate that. Is that
15 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Your Honour -- yes, Your Honour.
16 I will --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Via videolink] Yes.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Thank you very much.
20 Then I, again, would like to thank you.
21 Unless, Mr. Harvey, there's any other matter.
22 And this concludes the videolink testimony. We can be
24 [The witness's testimony via videolink concluded]
25 JUDGE ORIE: Then we'll have a break a little bit later than
2 Mr. Di Fazio or Mr. Re, for your next witness in line, any
3 protective measures? Any request for that?
4 MR. RE: None for the next three witnesses we have lined up.
5 JUDGE ORIE: None for the next three.
6 Then we will have a break and we'll resume at 4.30.
7 --- Recess taken at 4.01 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 4.35 p.m.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, you're still in court. I would like to
10 give you an opportunity to read the summary of Witness 23.
11 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, if Your Honours please.
12 By agreement with Mr. Harvey, if Your Honours please, I -- I
13 altered just one --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, it's your summary.
15 MR. DI FAZIO: -- one phrase in the second paragraph. Shall I
17 JUDGE ORIE: Please do so.
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Thank you.
19 Summary of evidence of Witness 23.
20 Witness 23 is a married woman. On 12 June 1998, she left her home
21 with her husband and children to visit relatives. Along the way, she came
22 across a Serb police check-point and was warned against continuing further
23 along the road. She and her husband decided to return home but were
24 stopped by KLA soldiers at a place called "Black Stone." Ten to fifteen
25 men wearing masks stopped the car and ordered the vehicle and occupants to
1 leave the road and park nearby. They were interrogated.
2 After some time, another vehicle came along the road and shots
3 were fired. Following that, her family was split up with some members
4 remaining in the family car and others being taken into another vehicle.
5 KLA soldiers guarded them. Both cars and the witness, her husband, and
6 children were driven to a nearby village where the witness and her
7 children were released at the home of a relative. Her husband was driven
9 The witness informed her relatives that her husband had been
10 abducted and they commenced inquiries trying to locate her husband. The
11 relatives discovered that her husband was held at Jablanica by the KLA.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Di Fazio, could you slow down a bit.
13 MR. DI FAZIO: Yes, certainly, Your Honours.
14 After some five weeks, the witness became aware that her
15 father-in-law had received a letter permitting her and her children to go
16 to Jablanica and visit her husband. While at Jablanica --
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. Di Fazio, you are a couple of lines --
18 MR. DI FAZIO: Oh, sorry.
19 While at Jablanica, a KLA commander dressed in black told her that
20 her husband would be released after a week.
21 Her husband returned to the family home after a week. She saw
22 that he had injuries, and he sought medical help, ascertaining that he had
23 a broken arm. She could see signs of beating all over his body.
24 And that's the summary, if Your Honours please.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Di Fazio.
1 The Chamber would now like to deliver a statement concerning the
2 tendering of the Human Rights Watch report entitled "Humanitarian law
3 violations in Kosovo" of October 1998, bearing MFI number P1212.
4 On the 5th of November, 2007, the Prosecution requested the
5 admission of the report through Witness 28. On the 8th of November, 2007,
6 the Prosecution stated during the housekeeping session that on the
7 following day it would inform the Chamber which passages of the report it
8 wished to tender.
9 On the 5th and the 8th of November, 2007, the Defence for
10 Mr. Balaj and for Mr. Haradinaj respectively objected to the admission of
11 the report. The Prosecution did not inform the Chamber on this matter by
12 the 9th of December [sic] 2007, deadline. The Chamber therefore
13 understands that the Prosecution is not following up its request to have
14 certain passages of the report admitted, and the Chamber therefore orders
15 the registrar to change the exhibit status of P1212 from marked for
16 identification to marked not admitted.
17 And that concludes the Chamber's statement.
18 MR. RE: Your Honours --
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that mistakes, as far as month are
21 concerned, are found everywhere. I was informed that I said "the 9th of
22 December deadline." But if that's the case, then it only shows how easily
23 these kind of things happen.
24 Mr. Re.
25 MR. RE: Your Honour, I'm placed in an embarrassing situation. I
1 thought -- but I think I overlooked asking for an extension to provide you
2 with those passages until today.
3 We have almost completed written submissions on that very point,
4 which we were trying to file this afternoon. We just had so -- we have
5 been just so busy over the last few days with witness matters that I just
6 haven't completed them. And I'm embarrassed, and I apologise for that.
7 If we can get them to you this afternoon, would Your Honours
8 reconsider in the light of whatever we file?
9 JUDGE ORIE: I -- I suggest to you, Mr. Re, that you add a short
10 paragraph showing good cause why you were late, and then we'll -- and then
11 also ask us to reconsider this decision, and then, of course, we would
12 have to hear more from the Defence on the matter as well, because there
13 were objections. And it may well be that your selection will be objected
14 by the Defence as well.
15 So we'll consider that, but it's for you now to show good cause
16 for that.
17 MR. RE: I will.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It might also depend on how much it is that you
19 want to have admitted, whether it's one or two passages or whether it's 95
20 per cent of the whole of the report. But we'll hear from you and then
21 we'll hear from the Defence.
22 This concludes at this moment these procedural matters.
23 Then are you ready to call your next witness, Mr. Re?
24 MR. RE: We are. That's Mr. Avdullah Avdija.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. I do understand there's a 92 ter statement.
1 MR. RE: Yes. It has been disclosed and it was based, I think, on
2 the attempted 92 bis statement.
3 While the witness is being brought in, in relation to the other
4 two witnesses for today - that's Mr. Ahmet Ukaj and Mr. Roel Versonnen -
5 I propose switching them in the pre-advertised order. Mr. Versonnen has
6 commitments, which make it very -- which mean he needs to get away earlier
7 than the other witness.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
9 MR. RE: I've informed my colleagues in the Defence of that.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. In fact Mr. Re has informed us about the
11 switching of the witnesses, and we informed the Chamber's legal officer,
12 and I've also informed Mr. Re that there still are some difficulties with
13 the manner in which Mr. Re seeks to --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- adduce evidence. I don't know whether you want
16 to deal with that --
17 JUDGE ORIE: I am aware that there's an issue.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: Fine.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE ORIE: Then Mr. Avdija, first of all, good afternoon. Can
21 you hear me in a language you understand?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon. Yes, I can.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence, the Rules of Procedure and
24 Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration. The text is now handed
25 out to you by Madam Usher. I would like to invite you to make that solemn
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
3 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you. Please be seated, Mr. Avdija.
5 Mr. Avdija, you'll first be examined by Mr. Re. Mr. Re is counsel
6 for the Prosecution.
7 WITNESS: AVDULLAH AVDIJA
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
10 Examination by Mr. Re:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Avdija. Your name is Avdullah Avdija. Your
12 date of birth is the 21st of November, 1966. You were born in Batushe,
13 Gjakova, Kosovo. And you still --
14 A. 1966? No.
15 Q. Was it 1968?
16 A. It is 1966.
17 Q. Okay. Let's -- let's start again. Your name is Avdullah --
18 JUDGE ORIE: I think, as a matter of fact, that is what Mr. Re -
19 at least in the English language - said. So it seems now that everyone
20 agrees that 1966 is the year in which you were born.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 MR. RE:
23 Q. Okay. Just those basic details.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We have also another matter, that is, whether
25 it's the 1st or the 21st of November. Mr. Re, the 92 ter statement says
1 21st. Please proceed.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 21st.
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. Maybe I'll start again. You're Avdullah Avdija; correct?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. You were born in Batushe, Gjakova, Kosovo. Yes?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. On the 21st of November, 1966?
9 A. Exactly.
10 Q. And you are a stone grinder and you live in Batushe with your
11 family. Is that so?
12 A. Yes, correct.
13 Q. I want to show you a statement which is 65 ter document 2165. I
14 will give you a printed copy of it.
15 JUDGE HOEPFEL: If the witness could go closer to the microphone.
16 Thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 MR. RE:
19 Q. Just have a look at the statement, which is dated and signed
20 yesterday. Is that the statement you signed yesterday?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. It bears your signature; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And is everything in it true?
25 A. Yes. In yesterday's statement, yes.
1 Q. And if we asked you to give the evidence which is contained in
2 that statement in court today, would you give the same evidence to the
3 Trial Chamber?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. RE: May it be received into evidence on that basis.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Registrar, the MFI number would be?
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI P1 -- P1223.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
9 Any objections against the admission of the 92 ter statement of
10 Mr. Avdija? Then P1223 is admitted into evidence.
11 MR. RE: The statement relates to the allegation in relation to
12 the late Seid Noci, which is in paragraph 88, point 2 of the indictment,
13 counts 21 and 22. I have a short statement -- summary of the statement
14 under Rule 92 --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Avdija is aware of what the meaning of this is?
16 Mr. Avdija, a summary of your statement will now be read. Because
17 if we start asking questions about the statement, the public might not
18 know what your statement is about. So therefore to inform the public, a
19 summary of your statement will now be read by Mr. Re.
20 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
21 MR. RE: This is a summary of the Rule 92 ter witness statement of
22 Avdullah Avdija.
23 The witness is from Batushe. He became a KLA member in 1998.
24 A. Batushe and not Batushi.
25 MR. RE: Excuse my pronunciation. I'll try better.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Avdija, this is just to inform the public. So
2 details here are less of importance as they are in your statement.
3 Please proceed.
4 MR. RE: He is related to Seid Noci by marriage. Seid Noci did
5 not work because he was handicapped and only had one finger on one of his
6 hands. He received an invalid pension. Seid Noci was not a member of the
7 KLA or the Serb Yugoslav Army.
8 Many villagers left Batushe after the Serbian forces took over on
9 May 29th, 1998. On 1st of June, 1998, the witness, his family, and
10 Seid Noci and Seid Noci's immediate family left. They went to Koshare,
11 where Seid Noci stayed with his family in the house of Skender Gjoni. The
12 witness went across the Albanian border to Tropoje with his family but
13 returned to Junik in July 1998.
14 Besim Alija Rama was the witness's KLA leader. In July 1998, Rama
15 told the witness that Seid Noci was wanted by the KLA and proposed to go
16 to Koshare to get Seid Noci. Rama told Seid Noci's cousin Deli Delija
17 that Seid Noci should come to the KLA headquarters in Junik. Deli Delija
18 promised to -- promised him to bring Seid Noci to the KLA.
19 The witness heard that Rama went to Skender Gjoni's house the next
20 night, armed and in uniform, calling Deli Delija's name. Seid Noci
21 understood that the KLA was looking for him. Deli Delija told Rama that
22 it was not a good idea to get Seid Noci and Rama left. The next day the
23 witness spoke to Seid Noci, who was very afraid because the KLA was
24 looking for him, and asked him to help him escape to Albania. Finally,
25 Seid Noci proposed to go to the KLA in Junik to find out why he was
1 wanted. Deli Delija and the witness accompanied Seid Noci to a KLA
2 check-point about 1500 metres from Junik. The witness left Seid Noci and
3 Deli Delija at the check-point and continued on.
4 That was the last time the witness saw Seid Noci and Deli Delija.
5 All right. Now --
6 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, I noticed the witness wanted to say something
8 Yes. Please tell us what you wanted to say.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I say something? Before we
10 finished our work, I told Seid Noci that, "Here is Deli Delija and Bashkim
11 Noci and they can find a solution for you, whether to go to Albania or
12 find something else for him." And this is correct.
13 JUDGE ORIE: This was only a summary that was read. So we find
14 your testimony in the statement.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But this was not mentioned. That's
17 JUDGE ORIE: It was not mentioned in the statement. So then this
18 adds to your statement. That's on the record.
19 MR. RE:
20 Q. I just want to turn to your statement which is in front of you,
21 Mr. Avdija, and just ask you a few clarifying things.
22 Just in the first paragraph which you have in front of you, you
23 refer to traveling to Tropoje to get weapons and returning several days
24 later by night with about 420 others in a convoy carrying weapons loaded
25 onto --
1 A. This was at the beginning of March.
2 Q. Well, thank you. But if you could just -- could you just look at
3 me for -- so I can -- so I can look at you when you're speaking, when I'm
4 speaking to you.
5 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Avdija, if you'd please focus on Mr. Re, who's
6 standing there. And if you'd first wait until he puts a specific question
7 to you, then -- and respond to that.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
9 MR. RE:
10 Q. Mr. Avdija, the Court -- everyone here has a full copy of your
11 statement and everything in it. Okay? I'm just asking you some little
12 clarifying questions.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. It's about the 420.
15 Can you just tell the Judges how you come up to -- come up with
16 the figure of 420.
17 A. I went to Tropoje in the beginning of March 1998 together with
18 three of my co-villagers. We went to the place, and within two days we
19 were armed. We got the munitions. And I don't know what date it was when
20 we returned together, 430 of us.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Now, you have repeated what we have already read in
22 your statement. The specific question of Mr. Re was: Where does the
23 number 420 comes from? How do you know exactly that it was not 400 or 450
24 but 420?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I didn't count them one by
1 one, but I heard from people that that was the number. There might have
2 been more or less than that, but I don't know.
3 MR. RE:
4 Q. These people, the 420, were they civilians, soldiers, or a
6 A. Among them there were people in uniform, but there were a lot of
7 civilians, wearing civilian clothes, personal clothes.
8 Q. Why did you travel by night?
9 A. We travelled by night because it was less likely to be detected by
10 the Serb forces by night, because the Serb forces were present in many
12 Q. You say that horses were carrying weapons. What sort of weapons
13 were the horses carrying?
14 A. The horses were carrying weapons of different kinds.
15 Q. Light? Heavy? What sort of weapons are you talking about?
16 A. They were light weapons and heavy weapons.
17 Q. Are you able to give a better description of the types of weapons?
18 Are you talking about rifles or something heavier?
19 A. There were Kalashnikovs, rifles of the type -- rifle 10, we call
20 it, or rifle 20, and ammunition.
21 Q. And just finally on this, whereabouts in Tropoje did you get the
22 weapons from?
23 A. At that time, in Tropoje the place we got it from was Vici Dol
24 [phoen]. There were abandoned houses there and the weapons and the
25 ammunition had been collected there and people got it from there.
1 Q. Who was supervising the distribution of the weapons there?
2 A. People I did not know.
3 Q. Okay. Would you just turn to paragraph 7 of your statement. Can
4 you please turn to paragraph 7, which is on page 4. I'm just going to ask
5 you to clarify something there.
6 A. Just one second, please.
7 Q. Okay. That's the one where you refer to going to Tropoje, about
8 seven hours on foot from Koshare, with about 300 people from Batushe, and
9 then returning and taking arms back from Albania to the KLA headquarters
10 in Junik.
11 I just want you to tell the Trial Chamber what sort of arms you
12 took back to the KLA headquarters in Junik that you're referring to there
13 in your statement.
14 A. With regard to paragraph 7, this refers to the 29th, when we left
15 Koshare. We went to Tropoje. It was seven hours by foot, and I went
16 there together with my family.
17 Q. We know that. That's in the statement. Just tell the Trial
18 Chamber what sort of weapons you took from Tropoje to Junik.
19 A. I personally had a Kalashnikov, as many other people did. Mainly
20 light weapons; so 10-millimetre, 20-millimetre.
21 Q. 10-millimetre, 20-millimetre what? Rifles or something bigger?
22 A. Only rifles. Just rifles.
23 Q. Where was the KLA headquarters you took it to in Junik?
24 A. It was not at the headquarters. It was a place where the soldiers
25 and the people ate. It was some kind of a kitchen. It was not the
1 headquarters. That's where we met when we had our meals.
2 Q. Was the place you took it to, was that in Junik, where you took
3 the weapons?
4 A. That place is called Junik, but the neighbourhood is called Cestaj
5 [phoen]. It's close to the first bridge of Junik.
6 Q. In the statement you made before, you marked on a map where the
7 check-point was. It's not a very good map, so I'm going to ask you to
8 look at a map in the computer here.
9 MR. RE: If we could have 65 ter 1009.
10 Q. And what I want you to do -- and this is in relation to where
11 Seid Noci went with -- with you on the last day you saw him when you
12 walked together to that check-point. I want you to draw where you went.
13 And it's going to come up on the map here. Okay? On the screen in front
14 of you. Okay?
15 If you could just -- just underneath the map where it's got
16 "Koshare" and "Botushe" and "Junik." Can you see that on the screen in
17 front of you?
18 A. One second, please. Can I say something? Before we go on with
19 the map, we cannot say "a check-point," because a check-point is something
20 else. This was a position, a place or a trench, we could call it, where I
21 saw the people that I mentioned. It was not a check-point.
22 Q. Were KLA soldiers there?
23 A. Those were people, armed people.
24 Q. Okay. Just go to paragraph 13 of your statement, where you say:
25 "At the check-point" -- this is the statement you signed yesterday --
1 "were three to four KLA soldiers whom I did not know. I continued my way
2 to Junik because I was wearing a uniform and a KLA insignia and did not
3 have any problem in passing the check-point."
4 Okay? That's the evidence in your statement you signed yesterday
5 in which you told the Chamber a few moments ago was correct.
6 Now, what I want you to do is to mark on the map where it is, this
7 check-point, where you say you saw the three or four KLA soldiers was.
8 MR. EMMERSON: I think, if I may say so --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. EMMERSON: It may be -- may be that this is not a matter of
11 great importance. It may be that it is. I have no idea. But the witness
12 is obviously anxious to convey something about the way in which Mr. Re has
13 asked the question by reference to "a check-point." And he ought to be
14 given the opportunity to do so, with respect.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Well, the witness said it was not exactly a
16 check-point and he explained what it was, and then you took him to his
17 statement again, Mr. Re. Perhaps you could invite the witness to explain
18 what exactly the difference is and what he understands to be a check-point
19 and what he observed at the time.
20 Could you tell us what's the difference between a check-point and,
21 as you said, "a place or a trench where I saw the people that I mentioned.
22 It was not a check-point."
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A check-point can be called
24 something that is situated on a main road and where large forces of some
25 kind of army are, while a position is different; it's a position that is
1 protected in case of an eventual attack.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And if someone would approach that position, would
3 that person be stopped and would it -- would he be -- would his personal
4 details be verified or ...?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it was the time of war and
6 people could be stopped and their details could be asked, I think.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
8 Please proceed, Mr. Re.
9 MR. RE:
10 Q. Okay. You have your statement there, paragraph 13, where you
11 said: "I continued my way to Junik because I was wearing a uniform and a
12 KLA insignia and did not have any problem in passing the check-point.
13 Seid Noci and Deli Delija stayed behind at the check-point. This was the
14 last time I saw Seid Noci and Deli Delija."
15 Now, I'm going to ask you a question now.
16 [Trial Chamber and usher confer]
17 THE WITNESS:
18 A. What you said is true, completely true.
19 MR. RE:
20 Q. All right. I want you to look at the screen and I want you to
21 draw, if you can see Koshare, Batush and Junik, where it was, the route
22 you took with Seid Noci and Deli Delija on that day; and when you got to
23 that point where you last saw them, I want you to put a cross.
24 A. Okay. May I use this?
25 Q. Yes. I want you to use that pen, please.
1 A. Koshare is here. Right here. I left them approximately here.
2 Approximately, I say, because I don't know for sure.
3 This is a place -- a mountainous place. There is no main road
4 passing through. It's a path, a mountainous path where people on foot or
5 animals would pass in the past.
6 Q. Mr. -- I just want to get it really clear. Can you draw a line
7 showing the way that you walked, from where you started to where you
8 finished and left them.
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Witness, could I ask you to take a bit of
10 distance from the microphone, because your breathing is -- your breathing
11 is -- is rather loud in our ears.
12 THE WITNESS: Sorry. Sorry.
13 JUDGE ORIE: The same doesn't happen if you speak. So if you take
14 a bit of a distance. Yes.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I said, Koshare is here. This
16 one. Up to here.
17 MR. RE:
18 Q. Okay. Can you just put a big "X." Please -- please look at me.
19 Like, a big "X" like that at the point where the -- where you left them.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. All right.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. It needs a number, Mr. Registrar.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 12 -- P1224.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. That's a map marked by the witness.
25 Any objection against admission? Then P1224 is admitted into
2 Please proceed.
3 MR. RE: That's the evidence in chief.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Re.
5 Mr. Emmerson, you're the first one to cross-examine the witness?
6 MR. EMMERSON: Yes. And I have very few questions.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Then -- then Mr. Avdija, you'll first be
8 cross-examined by Mr. Emmerson, who's counsel for Mr. Haradinaj.
9 Please proceed, Mr. Emmerson.
10 Cross-examination by Mr. Emmerson:
11 Q. I just have one or two questions for you only. In paragraph 14 --
12 I'm sorry, paragraph 15 of your statement, you -- you say that you were
13 personally in the KLA for about a month until the end of July. Is that
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. So can we take it, then, that when you travelled in March to
17 Tropoje with three other people from your village to collect weapons, you
18 did not consider yourself to be a member of the KLA at that time?
19 A. It is true that I was not a member in uniform or armed, but I was
20 a volunteer -- a volunteer who volunteered to go there and get weapons.
21 Q. And was that the same position for the other two men who came with
22 you from your village?
23 A. There were three of us in the beginning.
24 Q. Yes. And the question I'm asking you was: Were the other two in
25 the same position as you; in other words, not members of the KLA but
1 people volunteering to go and get weapons?
2 A. That's true. They were volunteers.
3 Q. You said that amongst the people who travelled back into Kosovo
4 with you, there were some in uniform and others in civilian clothes;
6 A. From Tropoje to Kosovo, when we returned.
7 Q. Exactly so. I mean, would it be right to say that only a few of
8 the 420 people were in uniform, or would it be a large percentage, or how
9 would you describe it?
10 A. Well, I couldn't say whether there were more uniformed than people
11 without uniform, but some of them were in uniform. I could tell you that.
12 Q. Very well. Can I -- can I put the proposition to you in this
13 way: As far as you understood the position, were there large numbers of
14 people there like yourself, ordinary villagers collecting weapons, rather
15 than being formally members of the KLA?
16 A. It's quite true to say that in those years there were no uniforms
17 at the time and that people were volunteering to get weapons and to be as
18 better armed as possible to defend our honour and that of the family.
19 Q. Thank you. Now, I want to turn to the occasion when you describe
20 in your statement the last time you saw Seid Noci. First of all, you --
21 you say that this was on a day in July. Do you remember now whether it
22 was towards the beginning of July or the middle of July or the end of
24 A. I can't remember, it's true --
25 Q. Very well.
1 A. -- but it was probably the beginning of July.
2 Q. Now, the mountainous area that you have described where there were
3 some KLA men in trenches and so forth, were -- I want to try to get a
4 sense of what that territory was like at the time.
5 We have heard evidence of the deployment of Serbian PJP forces in
6 the area around Junik and we have heard some other evidence about Serbian
7 military ambushes on KLA volunteers traveling backwards and forwards
8 across the border. Do you know now -- and if you don't know the answer to
9 this, please say so. But do you know now where the nearest Serbian
10 military deployments were at the time when you last saw Seid Noci?
11 A. Are you talking of when I saw him last, you mean?
12 Q. Yes. Can you give us a sense of where at that time you would have
13 expected to find Serb forces in that area? How close by? What their
14 deployments would have been.
15 A. From the 29th of May, after the -- Junik was and Molic were
16 occupied, the forces with the artillery and the number of forces they had
17 deployed there, they surrounded Batushe and they were there up until they
18 invaded Junik. They stayed there all the time until they invaded Junik.
19 Q. So in broad terms, those men that you saw dug into trenches, were
20 they in an area where you could expect to come across Serb forces from
21 time to time?
22 A. No. It was about 2, 3 kilometres from where the Serb forces were
23 there. And the position was at a -- at a 3 -- about 3-kilometre distance.
24 Q. About -- about 3 kilometres. And what would the purpose of the
25 trenches have been, as far as you understood it? This would have been
1 some form of protection, presumably.
2 A. Yes, that position, that fighting position, I had never been
3 before there, but that was for the people who were observing, to make sure
4 and check when there was any movement of Serb forces. That's what I
6 Q. You -- you describe it as a fighting position. Can we take it,
7 therefore, that as you understood the position, there was a risk that the
8 people who were there would be engaged in fighting at some point?
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 MR. EMMERSON: Those are my questions.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: No questions.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey.
14 MR. HARVEY: No questions.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Avdija, the Chamber has no questions for you.
18 Has cross-examination triggered any need to re-examine the
19 witness, Mr. Re?
20 Then, Mr. Avdija, this concludes your evidence in this court. You
21 might have been surprised that it was a relatively short period of time
22 that you spent in this courtroom. But, of course, the Chamber has read
23 your statement and an opportunity was now given to the parties to ask
24 additional questions by -- in relation to what we know already to be your
25 statement, which was summarised by the Prosecution and which the Chamber
2 I'd like to thank you very much for coming a long way, to The
3 Hague, and I would like to wish you a safe trip home again.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 I've got one question, if I may.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Well, it depends what it is. But please tell me and
7 then we'll see.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Regarding -- because I've made a
9 long way, I've travelled a long way to come here, from Kosovo. I wanted
10 to greet Mr. Ramush Haradinaj, Idriz Balaj, and Lahi Brahimaj.
11 JUDGE ORIE: No, no. Let me -- I do understand --
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No problem. No problem.
13 JUDGE ORIE: -- from what you've told us that you would wish to
14 greet them. And I think that they've understood that. But in a
15 courtroom, there's no place of personal greetings between witnesses and
16 accused. But they certainly have heard your few words, and that's -- that
17 will do for the time being.
18 Would you please then follow Madam Usher, who will escort you out
19 of the courtroom.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, and good night.
21 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith, before you raise any issue, I would
24 like to raise an issue first, and that is in relation to the previous
1 I invited the representative of the Registry in the videolink to
2 make sure that the previous witness would know where to deliver any
3 x-rays, if she would have found them. Meanwhile, the Chamber received a
4 very brief report by the court officer who was present during the
5 videolink testimony in which she reports to the Trial Chamber that when
6 she discussed this matter with the witness, that the witness's husband,
7 who was apparently nearby and was then present, stated that the family
8 didn't have the x-ray anymore because it was given to the Office of -- to
9 the investigator of the Prosecution. So therefore this is no -- not
10 testimony. This is just information the Chamber received. And since
11 these e-mails were copied to the Prosecution as well, I think it would be
12 best to inform the Defence also immediately about this information.
13 I think you know now who to address, and that's not the previous
14 witness any more. Again, what the husband informed the court officer
15 about is -- is not testimony. It's just practical information and it's
16 worth what it is.
17 MR. HARVEY: Thank you for your assistance in that matter, Your
18 Honour. We will continue to pursue with the Prosecution, as we have been
19 doing for some time, the search for these missing x-rays.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then --
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, perhaps I could add to that - but, of
23 course, the x-rays took rather quite some time - I'm referring to pages
24 5259, 5265, and 5267. At that time the Chamber did not insist on
25 receiving further details. At the same time, Mr. Harvey, I noticed that
1 at the time where you seem to agree that one wouldn't ask for x-rays if
2 there was no need at all to ask for them, but at the same time what the
3 results were, that it was unclear to you. The Chamber didn't insist on
4 further details and left it to the parties. It now appears that, although
5 at a rather late stage but perhaps in relation to the previous witness,
6 that it -- it has become an issue of whatever size again, but perhaps not
7 necessary to go back to the witnesses but, rather, to search the archives
8 of the OTP.
9 MR. HARVEY: Yes, indeed, Your Honour. We have indeed been
10 pursuing this question for quite some time now, since the -- the husband
11 testified and so --
12 JUDGE ORIE: Okay. The Chamber will wait and see.
13 MR. HARVEY: We'll see what happens.
14 JUDGE ORIE: But thought it should inform you immediately about
15 these new developments.
16 MR. HARVEY: I'm grateful.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Then the --
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Then, Mr. Guy-Smith, I take it that you want to
20 address the Chamber in relation to Mr. Versonnen, who is next on the list
21 and who has to leave soon, from what I understand?
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: That's correct.
23 JUDGE ORIE: Please bring to our attention what you wish to bring
24 to our attention.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. It's -- it's our understanding that the
1 purpose for having Mr. Versonnen testify at this time is to adduce
2 evidence with regard to the procedures that were utilised during the time
3 a photo-spread was shown to Witness 01, who as the Chamber is aware of, is
4 the subject matter of a --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Motion.
6 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- motion.
7 A review of the statement and the information contained in the
8 statement of Mr. Versonnen shows that the Prosecution is, once again,
9 seeking to do that which they said they were not intending to do in their
10 previous motion when I raised this issue, which is introducing any
11 statements of the witness.
12 And I refer the Chamber specifically not only to the 92 summary,
13 which I know is not in evidence --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- but certainly is indicative of what their
16 notion is as to what evidence will be adduced, which is -- it says in the
17 92 ter summary the witness identified, and then it goes on with
19 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just see whether I have the -- the 92 ter
20 statement, Mr. Re, would be the -- the 12th of February statement?
21 MR. RE: Yes.
22 JUDGE ORIE: That would serve as a 92 ter statement. We have --
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm sorry. I was reading from the 92 ter summary
24 initially, which I received at 1.41 p.m.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now I have -- some reason -- of course, the
1 Chamber is more interested that nothing slips into evidence --
2 MR. GUY-SMITH: Fine.
3 JUDGE ORIE: -- which is I have two -- apparently the same
4 statements, although with different ERN numbers.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: If I might, assuming that we're discussing the
6 same - and I believe that we are - we're discussing the same document.
7 And I'm referring to the document with the ERN number of U0158138,
8 specifically --
9 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- with regard to this document --
11 JUDGE ORIE: And that seems to be the same document as U0158127.
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: It may well be.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. RE: It's possibly explained by -- there may have been a 92
15 bis declaration, in which case they would have been re-ERNed. That's the
16 only explanation I can think of.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Re-ERNed, yes. Okay.
18 Let's -- so we're talking about the same document at this moment.
19 That is the four pages, 12th of February, 2007 statement given by
20 Mr. Versonnen.
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: Correct.
22 Now, I -- I'd like to -- to start off with very briefly that if --
23 if one is to view how a statement is defined, a statement is an oral or
24 written assertion or non-verbal conduct of a person if it is intended by
25 the person as an assertion.
1 And I'm using that as a base-line with regard to the analysis that
2 I'm about to go through in terms of the statement that the Prosecution
3 seeks to adduce or the evidence that they seek to adduce with regard to
4 Mr. Versonnen.
5 Paragraph 15 is clearly a statement from Witness 01, something the
6 Prosecution indicated they did not intend to do.
7 Paragraph 17 from the word "after" to the end, once again, is a
8 statement from Witness 01.
9 Paragraph 19, after the first full sentence, is clearly a
10 statement from Witness 01. The second sentence.
11 And the very last line in paragraph 19 is also a statement from
13 In addition, to the extent that the Prosecution is relying on
14 paragraph 11, although there is no specific information contained in that
15 paragraph which forms the basis of a statement from Witness 01, it clearly
16 by implication establishes that he obtained information from Witness 01.
17 And finally, with regard to paragraph 20, to the extent that the
18 Prosecution relies on the investigator notes contained in another
19 statement and is going to at some point be arguing or suggesting to the
20 Chamber that it should rely on those notes, those notes in and of
21 themselves contain statements from Witness 01.
22 So with regard -- with regard to all of that information, before
23 we go any further, based on the motion filed by the Prosecution in which
24 they indicated they were not going to be introducing any statements and
25 therefore the previous motion that was raised on this issue was moot, I
2 Now, in addition to that, I -- we're back in the same position we
3 were before, which is that the Prosecution is attempting, I think very
4 simply put, in adducing this evidence to -- to violate the holding in
5 Galic where the Appeals Chamber made it very clear that one could not use
6 an investigator or a summary or other form of introduction of evidence in
7 an attempt to, in that situation, avoid the strictures of 92 bis. They
8 also in that decision, paragraph 31, specifically discussed that where a
9 statement was made in preparation of litigation, it could not be
10 introduced under Rule 89(C).
11 In addition, we also are, once again, in a situation where the
12 discussion of the Appeals Chamber in Milosevic, which is the 30th of
13 September, 2002, which dealt with the summary of investigator's notes and
14 evidence for purposes of presenting information to the Chamber was
15 criticised on the reliance of Galic and the discussion with regard to this
16 being an improper way of adducing evidence. This can be found at
17 paragraph 18, subsection 3, where the Appeals Chamber specifically
18 rejected this approach.
19 If the Prosecution intends now to solely ask Mr. Versonnen what
20 his procedure was and nothing more, then indeed I have no basis for an
21 objection based upon the state that we're in in terms of evidence to be
22 adduced. But --
23 Thank you, Judge.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Then --
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm waiting because Judge Hoepfel has told me that
1 I'm -- I'm well ahead of the French again. So I'm stopping for a minute.
2 JUDGE HOEPFEL: How did you know? I just had body language.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Non-verbal --
4 MR. GUY-SMITH: Non-verbal communication. That's correct. It was
5 a -- it was a very definite statement.
6 But if the Prosecution seeks to adduce any of the evidence that I
7 have just objected to, then I believe they run afoul of the decision law
8 of the Appeals Chamber in two specific instances and they run afoul of the
9 very position that they took previously with regard to this issue when
10 they said they did not -- they did not intend to introduce any statements
11 of Witness 01.
12 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Emmerson.
13 MR. EMMERSON: A rather narrower issue arises so far as my client
14 is concerned on the terms of paragraph 18.
15 Paragraph 18, up to the first comma, is plainly an
16 un-objectionable statement of fact that there is no photo board
17 identification so far as this witness is concerned of my client. The
18 remainder of that paragraph, in seeking to explain Mr. Versonnen's
19 reasoning, obviously trespasses very substantially on the content and,
20 indeed, his view of the reliability of the content of the statement or
21 statements of Witness 01.
22 And since the state of the evidence as it would be adduced by the
23 Prosecution on the use of photo boards with this witness in connection
24 with my client is nothing more than the fact that no photo boards were
25 shown, we would object to the inclusion within the 92 ter statement of the
1 remainder of that paragraph beyond the first comma.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, a few matters have been raised. Some of
3 them, it seems, are relevant, especially if the statement of the person
4 interviewed by Mr. Versonnen will finally not be admitted into evidence,
5 because it would just be somewhere in the air. Other matters are that we
6 say even if the statement or statements are not admitted into evidence,
7 that we find here reflected part of what the witness has stated at the
8 time, what -- what the interviewed person has stated.
9 But most of it -- Mr. Re, it seems that if -- if the statement
10 would not be admitted into evidence, that -- doesn't remain a lot -- I
11 mean, if we don't have the statement, then it's fine that the person
12 interviewed identified someone in a photo-spread. But if we do not know
13 what he actually said about what this person did or did not, then it just
14 means that he identified someone, which, of course, doesn't assist the
15 Chamber in any way.
16 MR. RE: It's an issue of the reliability and the strength of
17 the -- the photo identification. I would have assumed it would have been
18 in -- within Mr. Guy-Smith's professional experience in the United States
19 to see this day in and day out, where the police officer testifies as to
20 what he or she did when they showed a photo identification board to a
21 witness. It's the normal procedure, a tried and tested method. I don't
22 know how it works in the --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But --
24 MR. RE: -- civil law procedure, but in the common law procedure,
25 this is the normal way of doing it.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But isn't it true that if the police officer
2 testifies that he has shown a photo-spread to someone who he interviewed
3 at the time and that the person recognize someone, without knowing what
4 that person stated about the activities of that person he identified, it
5 doesn't mean anything. I mean, if I identify someone on -- from a
6 photo-spread, that could be because he's my -- he's -- he's a family
7 member of mine. It could be that he's my greengrocer. It could be -- I
8 mean, without knowing what we are talking about --
9 MR. RE: Mr. Versonnen can tell you. Mr. Versonnen can go into
10 it. If you want that evidence, Mr. Versonnen can certainly --
11 JUDGE ORIE: No. No, that's fine. But that's exactly where the
12 issue is, that Mr. Guy-Smith says, We can't replace - let's just assume -
13 an inadmissible - that's his view - an inadmissible statement by the
14 testimony of someone who took that statement. And that's what I'm
15 trying -- drawing your attention to, that if the person who took the
16 statement gives testimony that the person he interviewed identified a
17 certain person, then without knowing what that person told Mr. Versonnen,
18 what he knows about that person, what his relationship with that person
19 was, what he saw this person doing, what -- et cetera, is -- is without
20 any use, isn't it?
21 MR. RE: If you want me to lead that evidence, I'm very happy to
22 ask Mr. Versonnen all those questions.
23 JUDGE ORIE: No.
24 MR. RE: Because it's the best available evidence of the
25 identification and how the witness was able to identify --
1 JUDGE ORIE: That's fine.
2 MR. RE: -- Toger from that photo identification board.
3 JUDGE ORIE: It seems that we have different views on the matter.
4 The parties have different views on the matter. What the views of
5 the Chamber are will be known to you after the break.
6 MR. RE: Your Honour --
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. RE: I'm -- I don't -- I really don't understand some of --
9 some of the submissions Mr. Guy-Smith is making. One of them he's saying
10 that paragraph 15 is a statement. It is no more than the -- than the
11 investigator saying the witness looked at the photo and said, "That's
13 JUDGE ORIE: "That's Toger," yes.
14 MR. RE: That's a representation --
15 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, what we need is whether the witness said
16 that Toger was his grandmother, or Toger was his greengrocer, or Toger was
17 someone who committed horrendous crimes he has observed himself, or that
18 Toger was the best teacher in the local school. That's, of course, what
19 makes the identification relevant.
20 Now, Mr. Guy-Smith - and he has done this before - says the
21 testimony of Mr. Versonnen should not be the vehicle through which the
22 inadmissible statement, especially the content of the statement of the
23 person he interviewed could be introduced into evidence. That's the
24 issue, if I well understand you, Mr. Guy-Smith.
25 MR. GUY-SMITH: You understand the issue precisely.
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
2 MR. RE: It's a hearsay representation. How is a hearsay
3 representation which is the best-available evidence inadmissible in this
4 Trial Chamber --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Well.
6 MR. RE: In the Tribunal?
7 JUDGE ORIE: Well, every statement is to some extent hearsay,
8 because it's what the interviewer has written down, what, in his opinion,
9 reflects the statement given.
10 The issue, of course, is whether the source of the information,
11 that's the person who gave the statement, the person who gave the
12 interview, whose statement was taken, whether we can accept the content of
13 his statement as evidence if there is no possibility any more to
14 cross-examine him. I think that's the issue.
15 MR. GUY-SMITH: Which is -- I'm --
16 JUDGE ORIE: I take it that the -- that the objections would be
17 less if a decision would have been there that the statement is admissible
18 in evidence.
19 MR. GUY-SMITH: By that you mean the -- the other thing -- the
20 other --
21 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But, of course, you kept us a bit -- you asked
22 for a further delay to respond until today. I've not seen yet whether
23 your response is already there --
24 MR. GUY-SMITH: I do apologise for that.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: But it's a relatively --
2 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- large motion dealing with a fair number of the
4 counts in this indictment.
5 JUDGE ORIE: I think that the Chamber by now understands what is
6 the issue is.
7 Mr. Guy-Smith, that seems to be in accordance what you think the
8 issue is. And Mr. Re still disagrees and says, this could not be an
10 Is there anything you'd like to add to that, Mr. Re, at this very
11 moment so that we can take that into consideration when considering the
12 matter during the break?
13 MR. RE: The -- the evidence is available for Mr. Versonnen, if
14 you want that evidence. The question is -- and that's the best-available
15 evidence. We can certainly lead the evidence from Mr. Versonnen of what
16 the -- of his dealings with the witness, what the witness told
17 Mr. Versonnen about his familiarity with the identification -- with the
18 person he identified. He can lead that evidence. Now, I can lead that
19 evidence from him or the Trial Chamber can ask him. That will be the
20 best-available evidence which we will have and the Trial Chamber could
21 possibly have as to the identification and how he pointed to that
22 particular person.
23 JUDGE ORIE: I think as soon as the content of this statement is
24 admitted into evidence, then further exploring the way in which the
25 statement was taken and in which a identification of photo-spread was
1 achieved becomes relevant. That, I think, is the issue.
2 MR. RE: But we're here now. Mr. Versonnen is here. That's
3 the -- that's the difficulty. I'm happy to call him after the Trial
4 Chamber --
5 JUDGE ORIE: Okay.
6 MR. RE: -- makes its decision. But that's not practical. Why
7 can't Mr. Versonnen give the evidence and stand or fall on whether the --
8 the other motion is dealt with in the way we want?
9 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
10 MR. GUY-SMITH: The -- the Prosecution made it very clear on the
11 20th of August - and I quote - "The Prosecution, however, does not intend
12 to tender through Mr. Versonnen any statements given by Witness 1 to
13 Mr. Versonnen."
14 They have -- they've just told you that that's precisely what they
15 intend to -- what they intend to do --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Well, let's --
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- and they're circumventing Galic by doing so.
18 MR. RE: I was referring to the written statements. Everyone knew
19 I was referring to the written statements which are the subject of another
20 application. I don't understand what Mr. Guy-Smith is saying at all.
21 JUDGE ORIE: I suggest the following: There are two possible
22 scenarios. The one is that the statement Mr. Versonnen has taken will be
23 admitted into evidence. The other scenario is that it will not be
24 admitted into evidence. Of course, there's always a possibility that it
25 will be partly be admitted into evidence.
1 I invite the parties to consider during the break and perhaps to
2 discuss what should remain from Mr. Versonnen's evidence, 92 ter evidence,
3 based upon the statement Mr. Versonnen gave if the statement he took at
4 the time would not be admitted into evidence, because that's where the
5 most important question seems to be.
6 MR. RE: Nothing. The answer is "nothing." It's irrelevant
8 JUDGE ORIE: It's irrelevant.
9 MR. RE: Yes.
10 JUDGE ORIE: So if you say, if finally the statement would not be
11 admitted into evidence, all is irrelevant, then I take it that you
12 withdraw all of the testimony of Mr. Versonnen.
13 MR. RE: Yes. It's of no relevance to the -- to the --
14 JUDGE ORIE: Does that help out?
15 MR. RE: It's --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. RE: Let me reconsider that. I'm sorry.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Of course, I asked you to think about it during
19 the break. You gave -- you came with a very quick answer, an answer that
20 might resolve a lot of -- a lot of discussions.
21 Perhaps if that sticks even after having given it some more
22 thought, then the Chamber might even not have to make difficult decisions.
23 But now we will have a break, because I asked already too much
24 from interpreters, technicians, transcribers, security, et cetera.
25 We'll resume at ten minutes past 6.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 5.51 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 6.24 p.m.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Is there anything the parties could report?
4 MR. RE: There is. But I -- I'd just ask us to move into private
5 session for one moment.
6 JUDGE ORIE: We'll move into private session.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 10599-10607 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. In private session we discussed a couple of
9 matters which could not be discussed in open session because it concerned
10 protected witnesses. Then there was a small portion which could have been
11 in open session, and that is the parties exchanged views on the
12 evidentiary value of the 92 ter statement of the witness to be called.
13 And the Chamber then expressed that depending on a decision on the motion
14 still to be taken, that the Chamber will seriously consider in case that
15 motion would be denied to consider ignoring or - I don't know what the
16 technical term for it is - to strike from the record portions, especially
17 paragraphs 14 up to and including 19 of the 92 ter statement as presented
18 for the witness still to be called.
19 Mr. Re, are you ready to --
20 MR. RE: Yes, I'm ready to call Mr. Versonnen.
21 JUDGE ORIE: -- call Roel Versonnen?
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 MR. RE: His statement will have to be under seal for the moment.
24 We can certainly tender a redacted one, because --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. We could already assign a number to it.
1 MR. RE: It's 65 ter 2170.
2 JUDGE ORIE: And, Mr. Registrar, that would be number?
3 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that will be MFI 1225, under seal.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Registrar.
5 [The witness entered court]
6 JUDGE ORIE: Good evening, Mr. Versonnen.
7 THE WITNESS: Good evening, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE ORIE: Before you give evidence in this court, the Rules of
9 Procedure and Evidence require you to make a solemn declaration. Could I
10 invite you to make that solemn declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honour. I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Versonnen, please be seated.
14 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: Yes. I -- I take it that Mr. Re does not intend
17 to lead any of the evidence as contained in those paragraphs.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
19 MR. RE: 65 -- it's a 92 ter statement.
20 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Well, that -- okay.
21 Then you'll first be examined by Mr. Re, who's counsel for the
22 Prosecution, Mr. Versonnen.
23 Mr. Re, please proceed.
24 WITNESS: ROEL VERSONNEN
25 Examination by Mr. Re:
1 Q. Your name is Roel Versonnen. You were born on the 6th of October,
2 1962. You're Belgian. You're an investigator working at the ICTY's field
3 office in Belgrade. Is that correct?
4 A. That's correct, sir.
5 Q. And the statement which will be given the number Exhibit MFI
6 P1225, dated the 12th of February, 2007, do you have a copy of that in
7 front of you?
8 A. Yes, I have.
9 Q. Does it have your -- have you signed the statement?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Is it true?
12 A. Yes, that's true.
13 Q. And would you give that evidence if asked those questions before
14 this Tribunal?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. It's already been assigned a number. I simply refer you to
17 paragraph number 17. You refer to showing the witness a photo board, ERN
19 MR. RE: Could the witness please be shown 65 ter number 117,
20 which is the photo board in question.
21 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. -- Mr. Re, that is a photo board which is
22 attached to a statement.
24 MR. EMMERSON: I'm sorry. I don't think that's correct, as a
25 matter of fact. I think that the paragraph 17 refers to an ERN number
1 which is a legend.
2 JUDGE ORIE: A legend.
3 MR. EMMERSON: Separate from the photo board. And I think the
4 question is -- is a misreading of the 92 ter statement.
5 MR. RE: Did I give the wrong one? It's 00310 -- the annex I'm
6 referring to is 0031022 and 1023, which are in 65 ter number 117. It's a
7 photo board --
8 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what --
9 MR. RE: -- and the legend.
10 JUDGE ORIE: That's not what paragraph 17 says, because 17 refers
11 to, last four digits, 1023 only and not 1022.
12 MR. RE: Paragraph 14 refers to 1022. Paragraph --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. RE: -- 17 refers to 1023.
15 JUDGE ORIE: I agree with you.
16 MR. RE: I just want the witness to identify them. That's all.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Now, is there any dispute? If the -- I mean,
18 these ERN numbers are attached to that statement on which we still have to
19 decide. Would there be any -- would it be contested that the ERN numbers
20 attached to that statement would be the ones used during the interview?
21 MR. GUY-SMITH: There would be -- that would not be contested, no.
22 JUDGE ORIE: It would not be contested.
23 Mr. Emmerson?
24 MR. EMMERSON: No.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Harvey?
1 Then there's no need to have this question asked to the witness,
2 Mr. Re. Because if it will be admitted, then it's clear that that's --
3 these are the documents that are used.
4 MR. RE: May they receive an MFI number, then, so that we don't
5 lose them.
6 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. But I do understand that, of course, you could
7 get it at any time in the future when you need it, but if you insist on
8 having an MFI number. If it's not already in some series of other
9 photo-spreads. I don't know. I haven't checked that. But it's certain
10 it has not been shown to Mr. Versonnen. So therefore at this moment, I do
11 not see what -- what the issue is.
12 MR. RE: Well, I'm sorry, I asked for it to be displayed.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And I said that it's -- if it was displayed, it
14 was before the Chamber had decided that you would be allowed to do that.
15 MR. RE: May it be displayed now?
16 JUDGE ORIE: No, it -- let me just check with my colleagues.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE ORIE: No, Mr. Re. There's no reason at this moment, in
19 view of the fact that the Defence does not contest what these documents
20 are if, of course, the statement of Witness 1 would be admitted into
22 So please proceed.
23 MR. RE: Okay. I mean, I'm not that concerned what the witness
24 says at the moment. I asked a moment ago for an MFI number, and Your
25 Honour said "yes."
1 JUDGE ORIE: Yes, I said "yes," and I'm afraid that either at any
2 future moment that MFI would become either an MNA or anything else or it
3 could be an exhibit, and then at that moment, of course, you could bring
4 back the -- this ERN number or after a while we have to vacate that
5 number. So it depends on future events on whether it makes any sense at
6 all. So therefore -- but let me just check.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Where I earlier said that I read deliberations
9 in the Chamber, show that I was too early, Mr. Re, in saying that there
10 was no problem, because the Chamber sees no reason at this moment to have
11 it MFI'd. And it could be at any future moment that you want to MFI these
12 ERN numbers, and then we'll see at what moment and for what purposes and
13 for what reason. Please proceed.
14 MR. RE: All I want is the record to reflect that the documents
15 attached to his statement are 65 ter number 117. That's my only concern.
16 And I think it does.
17 Q. Witness, Mr. Versonnen, I just want to ask you one thing about
18 paragraph 16 -- or, sorry, 15 of your statement, where you said the
19 witness pointed at the picture number 6 and said --
20 MR. GUY-SMITH: Excuse me. I'm objecting to that for all of the
21 reasons that we have been discussing throughout these proceedings.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. --
23 MR. GUY-SMITH: And it's absolutely inappropriate for Mr. Re to be
24 doing that at this time --
25 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re.
1 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- based upon what we've been discussing.
2 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, the statement of Mr. Versonnen is quite clear
3 in this respect. And as I said before, the Chamber will consider whether
4 or not this is admissible after we've heard all the submissions. So
5 therefore, if it's admissible, then it's admissible just as well on paper
6 as it would be from Mr. Versonnen testifying in court about it.
7 MR. RE: Maybe I misunderstood before. When the Trial Chamber --
8 when Your Honour specifically asked me how we knew it was the same person,
9 what the witness knew about the person called "Toger" and so on. And I
10 thought --
11 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour.
12 MR. RE: The Trial Chamber --
13 MR. GUY-SMITH: Your Honour, I thought -- I hate to interrupt
14 Mr. Re, but he -- this is really inappropriate. It's exceedingly --
15 MR. RE: I'm not giving not evidence.
16 MR. GUY-SMITH: It's an exceedingly inappropriate argument, and he
17 knows it.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Re, if you have any further questions to the
20 witness, please put them to the witness. If not, the Defence will have an
21 opportunity to cross-examine the witness.
22 MR. RE: I don't understand.
23 JUDGE ORIE: You don't understand.
24 MR. RE: In the discussion before, the Trial Chamber raised the
25 issue. I've been given no guidance or direction. There's an objection as
1 to whether I can ask the witness whether Witness 1 --
2 I mean, just let me finish.
3 MR. GUY-SMITH: He's about -- he's about to do it again.
4 JUDGE ORIE: Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 Mr. Re.
6 MR. RE: Whether Witness 1 can provide the Trial Chamber with
7 anything of assistance. I haven't got that guidance. I seek that
9 JUDGE ORIE: No.
10 MR. RE: I'm not putting words in the witness's mouth. I'm not
11 giving evidence. I'm seeking guidance from the Trial Chamber as to how
12 much assistance this witness can give you. I'm entirely in your hands.
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. You may have misunderstood the Chamber at that
14 time. I think I gave an impression of what the issue was, what we would
15 know and what we would not know. I did not indicate at that time that
16 your solution that we would gain knowledge by asking this witness would be
17 a solution.
18 MR. RE: If you're against me, I'll sit down.
19 JUDGE ORIE: I beg your pardon?
20 MR. RE: If you're against me, I'll just sit down and finish.
21 JUDGE ORIE: No. No.
22 MR. RE: I'm seeking the guidance. That's all.
23 JUDGE ORIE: The issue was that the Chamber does not consider this
24 witness the appropriate source for gaining that information, which, as I
25 said before, we might miss. That's the guidance.
1 Then Mr. -- Mr. Guy-Smith or other counsel to cross-examine the
3 Mr. Emmerson is nodding "no." Mr. Harvey is nodding "no."
4 Mr. Guy-Smith, let's just also be very practical.
5 Mr. Versonnen, it doesn't come as -- I can't say that it's -- it's
6 a secret any more that your statement and your testimony is the subject of
7 at least some procedural disagreements, to say the least. I understood
8 that you have to leave when? Because you were rescheduled because you had
9 arrangements made. Is that for tomorrow?
10 THE WITNESS: That's for tomorrow, yes, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Nevertheless, we'd like to -- that's -- would
12 that mean that you're not available any more tomorrow?
13 THE WITNESS: Exactly, yes. I won't be available any more
15 JUDGE ORIE: And that is a problem for us, Mr. Versonnen, because
16 we are very close to the end of the Prosecution's case, which is supposed
17 to finish this week. I take it that if you are leaving The Hague
18 tomorrow, that you'll not be back the day after tomorrow.
19 THE WITNESS: I -- I can be back the day after tomorrow, if -- if
21 MR. RE: Yes. I -- I know where he'll be. He's not going back to
22 Belgrade tomorrow. I know where he'll be tomorrow. Arrangements --
23 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any way of changing your arrangements in
24 such a way that you could be available tomorrow in the afternoon? I
25 hardly ever ask a witness, as a matter of fact.
1 THE WITNESS: I have to discuss it with the management -- with the
2 OTP management, sir.
3 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
4 Mr. Guy-Smith.
5 MR. GUY-SMITH: I -- I think there -- there might be a solution.
6 I'm not sure.
7 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
8 MR. GUY-SMITH: But there might be a solution if Mr. Re and I
9 could have a meaningful conversation this evening. We may be able to come
10 up with a series of agreed facts that deal with the procedures that were
11 employed or not employed or the information that was followed or not
12 followed by this particular witness. I don't know whether or not --
13 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
14 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- we can do that. Which might then obviate the
15 need for Mr. Versonnen --
16 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
17 MR. GUY-SMITH: -- to return.
18 JUDGE ORIE: Of course, the concern of the Chamber is if you would
19 not reach an agreement, because the temperature at this moment is such
20 that we are not for the full 100 per cent confident that an agreement will
21 be reached.
22 MR. GUY-SMITH: Well, Mr. Re and I blow hot and cold and have for
23 most of the trial.
24 JUDGE ORIE: Let me just ...
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE ORIE: The Chamber has considered what will be on our agenda
2 tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. If we would need time for the
3 cross-examination of Mr. Versonnen, whether that would be tomorrow or the
4 day after tomorrow, in both cases it would be time which we would lose on
5 a videolink. It doesn't change that much whether that's tomorrow or the
6 day after tomorrow, if I'm ...
7 So that wouldn't make any difference. Under those circumstances,
8 and also in view of the good intentions from Mr. Re and Mr. Guy-Smith to
9 try to find a solution, we will not lose much if we would invite
10 Mr. Versonnen to come back on Wednesday.
11 Mr. -- or is there any --
12 MR. GUY-SMITH: I think that's fine. I'm looking for a
13 resolution-oriented approach here.
14 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. And it also has the advantage that if there's
15 any need for further early morning or late afternoon -- or late at night
16 meetings so that the Chamber could give guidance, then that we have at
17 least a few early mornings and a few late nights available.
18 MR. GUY-SMITH: I'm always available.
19 JUDGE ORIE: Yes.
20 Mr. Versonnen, I think an apology is in place. You've waited some
21 time today and now -- the main thing you have observed is procedural
22 issues raised by the parties. You said to come back on Wednesday
23 afternoon is not a major problem for you?
24 THE WITNESS: I don't think so, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then we'll -- we'll not bother you tomorrow.
1 We'd like to see you back Wednesday in the afternoon. Whether we could
2 immediately start with your testimony or not, it depends a bit on the
3 circumstances. But since the Victims and Witness Section will be in touch
4 with you, you'll learn from them whether we would start right away at
5 quarter past 2.00 or whether it would be later that afternoon.
6 At the same time, I have to instruct you that you should not
7 speak, since you have now started your testimony, not speak with anyone
8 about the testimony already given or still to be given. And we'd like
9 then to see you back on Wednesday.
10 The Chamber --
11 Yes, Mr. Re.
12 MR. RE: Just on that -- I -- I actually have to speak to
13 Mr. Versonnen about other matters not connected with his testimony. Could
14 I just ask the Chamber's permission. He is only here for today and there
15 are some other matters which I need to address him on but they're not
16 connected with this.
17 JUDGE ORIE: Is there any objection? No.
18 In the strict and absolute confidence in Mr. Re's and your,
19 Mr. Versonnen's, professional attitude, the Chamber allows you to speak
20 with Mr. Re, but not one single word about the testimony in this case.
21 THE WITNESS: Understood, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE ORIE: Yes. Then although we'd like to see you back on
23 Wednesday, the Chamber adjourns until Tuesday, tomorrow, the 13th of
24 November, quarter past 2.00, Courtroom I.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.03 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 13th day of
2 November, 2007, at 2.15 p.m.